Hey, Humans how's going.
Susan Ruth here.
Today, I had the opportunity to Skype with
Katie,
and
her story is that
she was not born a woman.
But she identifies as a woman and is
in the process
of transitioning.
She is transgender.
I actually learned in this
podcast
that
transgender is a proper term. I always thought
it was transgender
with an Ed, but it is not.
It's transgender.
So
I learned a lot of things in this
conversation.
It's a good 1
hope you enjoy.
And, also,
the end of
this episode,
have some phone numbers,
outreach
anybody that is looking to talk to somebody
or is
feeling super down or, you know, all the
stuff.
I have some phone numbers and and names
of organizations that can help.
Alright?
Alright. Do it.
Here we go.
Hi, Katie. Welcome to hey, human.
Hello.
How are you?
Doing alright?
Good. So people listening might suddenly be shocked
because I just said, hi, Katie and your
voice is rather low.
Yeah.
You wanna explain that?
I guess that's the byproduct of a,
to
was born.
I was assigned male at birth. So
yeah, my voice
I've been on Estrogen for 2 weeks now.
And
my voice
has not dropped. Or has not risen rather,
which I guess is to be expected. It
will start to do that.
It will unnatural start to rise a little
bit on my, Adam's apple we're will receive.
Yeah. It'll naturally get higher. And
So
hopefully across my fingers, I won't be
like this for the rest of my life,
you know? I doubt you will.
You're not done now, so it's not like
it. It's good.
How say on the estrogen?
Tuning the estrogen is it, have you noticed
difference yet? In your body? Not yet. I'm
still in a the smallest dose,
because I need to test how my body
reacts to it. Mh.
So,
it's, like, on a scale, like, 0.1 to
0.4, some sort of unit that I don't
understand
0.4 something's. And I'm at 0.1 right now.
So, like, 25 percent of what I will
be get taking weekly. Oh, okay. So it's
relatively small dosage.
Can everybody freak out?
But, like, the weird thing is, like, I
have, like, the 1 change I have noticed.
Is
like, my emotional well being
is already better than it was. Really?
I was in say, a pretty a pretty
pre awful place for
several weeks before,
I, got my first shot at in the
in this the last, I 2 weeks since
or 2 a week.
Since I
I feel so much better about what I'm
doing right now, you know. Do you think
that's a result of the hormone shot, or
do you think that's a result of,
you knowing that you're now in process of
transitioning?
Think it's that. I think it's like a
psychological.
You know, like jaw didn't, like,
increase, like, the endo of my brain or
anything like that, But III
know that, like, I am finally taking steps,
you know? Because I I realized I was
trans
what what month is it is it July?
It is. Yes.
It would be, like, 9 months ago, I
think,
and
basically to sat on that knowledge for 8
of those months.
You know, I started coming out people,
and
taking steps in that sense. But physically,
I was making no change in my body
and, like, you know, 20 years old starting
to, like, notice chest hair coming and stuff
like that. And I felt this, like, immense
pressure that I needed to start doing something.
So
And you know, like, I see,
I
know some people who are, like,
started transitioning when they were, like, 14
and
they're now, like, 17, for instance, and
they've had 3 years
to, like, sort of... As they go through
Puberty, they do it, They're doing as a
1. So they look, like so better than
I look now.
And by the time they get to my
age, they'll be, like,
inevitably
better than I look right now. So I've
have this feeling, like, I'm... I need to
start as soon as possible so I can
have as much of, like,
you know, my life as
the human being I wanna be. So it's
interesting you said that you
realized
that you transgender
8 months ago. But now,
did you just sort of wake up and
go, I think I got put in the
wrong body or of dealing with your whole
life for, you know, explain that a little
bit because I think for people who are
listening, they're going 8 months. You don't... You
know, that's not at time. Yeah.
Well, the short story that's... The short version
is it's been there.
All my life, and I just have ignoring
the science or just not even noticing them.
The longer version is, like,
there's a...
If we're going backwards in time,
8 months ago,
this, like,
I was feeling horrible all the time. And
I had no idea. I trying out why.
And I finally came to realize, like,
oh, this is this is
D gloria the feelings is gender d sequoia.
I feel not at home in my own
body.
And
know, like, over the summer,
last summer, I
had
I was, like, starting to tell more people
that
you know, I like to I I like
to wear women's clothes. I wish I was
a woman.
But I didn't put it together at, like,
this awful feelings I was having were because
of this,
basically,
I've been wearing, like, like, women's close privately
since, like, third or fourth grade.
And
in high school, I started, like, going to
sleep hoping out wake up female.
And
you know, if III
always, like,
have this idea, like, if I were to,
like, rub a Genie lab something right and
get a Genie,
my first wish would be to retain this
this brain. I have, but be born into
the body of the woman. Mh.
And that didn't include me and I was
just like, this is just something I want.
So III didn't put it together. That's what
being trans is.
And then,
end of senior year,
I just... I keeping a secret for
or, like, 8, 9 years or something like
that. From your parents and everybody. Everybody. Yeah.
Everybody. I never told anybody.
So finally, I was, like, and this car
I 1 of my best friends of the
time.
And I told him, and I explained, like,
that I would do this and that I
wish I his emails stuff And then I
was, like, but
please never bring this up to me. Never
never mention it again to anybody and don't
even say it to me unless I bring
it up.
And then... Why is that?
Because I I was that embarrassed about it,
you know, the...
Like, I thought, oh, On this boy that,
likes to wear women's clothes, and was wishes
he was a woman.
That's, you know, society would shame me for
that, you know. How did your friend take
it?
He was really cool about it. He was,
like, didn't... Like I was weird or anything
like that. Was just like, interesting and, like,
he would ask, like, questions and,
just wants to know more.
And then after that conversation, we never talked
about it
again, for he didn't talk about it again
till for like, a year. I thought he
had forgotten about it or something because he
that good not talking about it. So I
do appreciate him doing that.
Then like, going in...
That was nice senior here. So going into
freshman year of college.
I had this
girlfriend who's was gonna go to college,
and she and I... Girlfriend or friend girl.
Somebody you were dating. Yeah. Okay. Got. U.
Yeah.
She
she and I got really close.
And
basically,
we ended up breaking up in, like, October,
and or November.
And
we like we broke up because he wanted
to be friends. We didn't wanna date anymore.
And
I explained to her
the same thing that I told my other
friend,
in city here, they still, I I wish
I was female.
Wanna where women's clothes and stuff like that.
And she's told me... Well, you know, you
can be female. They... That's a thing you
can
transition and and start being feeling like, oh,
no. That's not that's not what I wanna
do. You know, because IIII
wanted to be female. I didn't wanna transition
because
I didn't wanna be a woman who used
to be AAA guy. You wanted to be
born a woman? I wanna be born. I
I wanna to have been 1 in the
whole time. And I just thought... Because that's
possible. I'll just live with what I have,
and
you know,
so then
half a year goes by. Oh... Well,
first thing we did next day was go
shopping, and she bought me some clothes,
which is nicer. And
hid the home on the bottom of my
suitcase, put them in the bottom of my
underwear drawer, and
you know, felt better, and that was fine
for
about 6 months until I got back to
home for the summer
and
just...
My summer is very long, like, 3 and
to a half months. I was just sitting
there and wasn't doing anything, you know,
that I wanted to do was working at
this pizza place that was awful to work
at and just
my conditions were perfect for me to start
really thinking about how much I hated the
body I have and the person
who I was,
And so eventually, started coming out to a
few other
friends, not as trans, but it's just someone
who wants to be a woman.
And they would would... And I would say,
explain, like, I don't think I'm trans because
I don't feel like I'm a woman trapped
in a man's body.
I just desperately wanna be female.
I don't... I guess explain that what you
mean by that. Well,
and I after having done research. This is
something a lot of trans people think it's,
like,
there's there's this idea that trans people are
just, like, that that, like,
I, like, you were just, like, new... A
woman trapped in a man's body and, like,
that's... I guess that's true, but it doesn't
like feel that way because I don't know
what it's like to feel like a woman
or I didn't know what it's like to
feel like a woman
until I started really exploring that.
But the fact that I was unhappy with
my body and then I wished, I
was had a female anatomy.
That is
being... That is being a woman in a
man's body, you know, you
like, imagine if, like, you for instance, woke
up,
tomorrow was, like, a penis. You would feel
like, where's is my, you know, female nobody
body, that's how I felt my entire life,
I guess. Yeah.
So,
basically, like, end of summer, I I had
come to realize, like, I
wish I was female
nothing I can do about it. I'm just
gonna have to live with it. And then
so then
that's
next semester at school. I actually studied abroad.
You know, I was
surrounded by nothing familiar. So I... Basically, the
only thing I had that was familiar was
me and because I was in this, like,
turmoil I was forced to, like, deal with
it. Yeah.
I
realized, oh,
I must be transgender.
She discover that traveling abroad. We had to...
Do have to at least comment on that
pun.
When I was abroad. I realized I wanted
to be abroad.
The,
So I I...
You know, I sat down that night, I
was just feeling humble
and not sure if I could keep you
doing this. And
I was supposed to like, write this essay
for my assignment and said I wrote a
different essay about how
about, like, my experience going up and all
that.
And
basically, finished it,
sent it to, like, a very good friend
of mine.
Family friend, mentor second father type figure
that I've had my life for a while.
And
and then
went to sleep and felt a little better
having, like, realize that. But then I had
to, you know, think, oh,
I am abroad. I'm
dealing with this problem that would be difficult
even if I was at home surrounded, but
my family love me. I will put this
off
up worrying about this until I get home,
so I can,
just enjoy my experience here. Did you just
as a woman while you were there in
Europe? Sorry. Did you... Did were you out
and about Europe as a woman or were
you?
No. I
I came to a few of my friends
there. I still was presenting his mail,
but
I I did buy
some clothes with friend of mine, and then
I
wore them
around these friends a couple times.
But I was still very, very ashamed of
it,
and just so very uncomfortable and worried that,
like, I would be called out for being
weird or something even though these were very
open people.
This the environment I'm in school is very,
very clear friendly, and it's awesome.
So, yeah, I didn't, like, really start digging
in until
when to break,
redoing research figuring out what exactly Am, you
know, I thought maybe I was gender fluid,
but I came to realize. I'm just trans.
What is Gender fluid?
Gender fluid, it's when you
sometimes you'll wake up, and you'll be like,
I feel male today. Sometimes you wake up
feel female. Use you're it's not just a
spectrum,
it was described in this,
vice like this professor,
as, like, if you were to,
like, take, like, all the colors of the
rainbow and then, like,
turn them into a of my cats here.
Hello, Kat.
Take, like, it's, like,
it's so... It's like so multi dimensional. The
spectrum is not like a a lying and
you're somewhere on the line. It's not a
plane and you're somewhere on the plane. It's
not like a a spear and you're somewhere
on the spear. It's like,
this... It's
so diverse.
So, basically,
Generally fluid would, like, people identify, like, male
1 day and female the next day.
But you're constantly
identifying as a female. Yeah. I haven't... I
the reason I thought I could
I might be generous to it is, like,
when things are going well for me when
I'm presenting his mail.
Sometimes I can fool myself or just thinking
I can live like this forever, but I
have to be things that to be, like,
perfect for me to not feel
sad.
Like,
and the way I sort describe that is,
like,
you know, if you imagine, like, everyone's happiness
is on a scale of, like, negative a
hundred to a hundred right, hundreds best negatives
hundreds is the worst. And most people they're
they're
like, you know, you get a promotion at
work. It's, like, plus 25 or, you know,
your cat runs away minus 15 or something
like that. You.
Most people are out of 0
naturally, but, like, I'm naturally, like, a negative
50 negative 60 type thing. So I have
to be you know, where a normal person
would be, like, an 80 or 90 on
that scale, I am a 40 or 50.
At the best. That's the best I can
get. Would you say that's the reason why
a lot of trans folks
turned to drugs and alcohol as a means
of elevating their moods
I... I mean, I imagine the suicide rates
gotta be off this charts. Yeah. It's definitely
Trans teens have the highest rate of suicide,
and just trans... Trans women in general
have the highest mortality rates, whether it's homicide
or suicide, Much side I imagine it's a
big 1 too. Yeah.
Absolutely. A lot of people fine.
Yes. And I'll talk about that in a
little bit. Do have a lot say about
that.
I hesitate to there Speak for a train...
All trans people, but, I would I would
not be surprised if that was way. A
lot of them turned drugs in our alcohol.
So, yeah, I basically just realized That I
was trans, and then I
said... Oh, I'll worry about this in the
summer,
and then the next 4 months were absolute
help because,
you know,
going to school,
presenting his male when I knew that was
a lie. To college?
Yeah. To college,
presenting his mail.
It's it's not easy.
There are a lot of dark kinds.
Not that Just...
Well, you know,
Batman man might be transgender. Who knows? We
don't know...
Yeah.
I did read an article about why we
don't know the real
population of transgender Americans
because so many people... Because we have this
idea the gender is a binary,
if we were to simplify the gender to,
like, this a scale from 1 to 10:10
female weren't being male. Yeah.
You probably actually to, like a 7 or
an 8 to really feel dis work enough
to
to want to transition, and also a lot
of people
are
do identify entirely as female privately but they
don't. Like, they mentioned this 1 guy who
is, like, this
successful lawyer, Chicago,
who wrote in anonymously or something was saying,
like, when I take surveys online, for instance,
I checked the box female. It's an anonymous
survey without even thinking.
But I would never... And III have always
wanted to be female but always like, admired
like, the feminine form whatever and want that
for myself,
but I would never ever transition because my
life right now is is good, and I
don't know when my life would hold if
I transitioned.
Scott said just scary, no man's land. No
again, part in the pun, but,
to not really...
I mean,
I believe that most of us spend our
entire lives wearing masks
for sure. Yeah. And many of us are
quite miserable in the process of trying to
be something we're not
which is why I always find it interesting.
There's so much hate against
trans people because
I find it... It shows a grand lack
of empathy for one's own struggle. I mean,
Yeah. We're constantly
pretending to be something We're not when we
got into the world.
How is that different? You know? I mean,
As far, you know, rudimentary speaking. So you're
in third grade
and you're thinking to yourself
something is not right here,
and you go in and you steal your
mom's clothing and suddenly you're, like,
How do... So I know that that there
is a great percent. Not a great percentage
As a percentage of men who dress as
female.
Who are trans night
who live their lives as males, but they
also live their lives as females.
That's different.
Yeah. Right. To speak to that a little
bit.
Can?
It's
it's different in that, like, But I notice
what left.
You know, a trans site. Of course.
My understanding is it's a difference between like.
They
you know, dressing and drag,
and it's fun, and they enjoy it.
But
and maybe they even prefer it.
But when they take it off and they
go back into the real world, they're fine.
Know, if they're not. Right for you. It's
to. You're trying to. They we'll
dress in women's clothes, you and
or Back then, especially, I dressing women's clothes.
And
it felt better,
but it still it good. Because... Because you're
during in your body, you're still in the
body that... Yeah. It I was I was
like, you know,
I I would like, look in the mirror
and see this...
I'm, like, so close to what I would
wanna be, but I wouldn't be there And
I I it was like,
I sort of describe it as, like, a,
you you can't look away from this... Crude
parody. I see in the mirror,
but I hate it. I can't... I hate
it, but I can't look away. Yeah.
So, yeah,
I think it's interesting this idea that
everyone has masks, you know, and we sort
of deem that people who are trying to
remove their masks, you know, sure.
And I had a neuroscience professor last semester
who...
She was she's a Lesbian,
and,
I was having meeting with her where we
were talking about this, you know. And she
was saying you should...
I hope 1 day you feel lucky because
so many sis straight people.
Don't get the opportunity to
really discover who they are because they're they
have, like,
it's in some senses of a benefit and
the fact that they
don't... They're never challenged
for their identity. Mh. They're never,
forced to really examine themselves because they are
the norm. They're, you know, they're natural. You
know, they
they
they can live their entire lives and everyone's
question why they are, who they are.
Yeah. But see. I had to do... I
have to disagree with that because I think
as a heterosexual female, for example, a white
1 as well.
I mean, I'm constantly questioning my place in
the world, who I am, what I am.
You know, all that kind of stuff. So
I I do... I mean, I understand what
she's trying to say. But
You...
But, like,
many, many heterosexual sis
people. Sis.
2. Sis means cis gender helped you born
the the sex years kind of birth matches
your identity. Thank you. Got. Yeah.
Assist straight
people
could go their entire lives and never once
actually have to examine the themselves. You have
and that you're better for it
and, you know... Oh, I think a lot
of people don't. I see what you're saying.
A lot of people don't because they're not
forced. When your L lgbt, you don't have
a choice. Right. Right. You you have to
go through that sort of gauntlet of who
am Why am I? Well, yeah. Because you
spend your whole life of people pointing at
you going, you're different. You're different. And more
time you're... Yeah. And verifying it.
Like, are you sure
and that... That's a question that I've gotten
several times. Sure.
So, yeah, it's, like...
So she said, at the end of the
day, I hope you feel lucky that you
we're forced to do something that you might
not have done otherwise. Mh. Not you're forced
to really discover who you are.
And
so while,
So I'm sort of in the process of
removing my mask,
and
I think...
Hopefully, 1 day, I feel lucky for that.
I don't at the moment. But... I can't
imagine since you're at the beginning of this
journey, and,
we had discussed off off air that
that you'd like to come back again and
and talk about it once you're
You're not out yet. No.
I'm out to probably 90 to 95 percent
of my friends. Yeah. It's probably
a few hundred people that know now.
But I'm not officially out. You know, I
at work I to present his male.
Then in my community back home, I
know when well a lot of people don't
know. Your hometown. You mean... My hometown. Yeah.
Mh.
That's gonna be really interesting too because here
you are, your mind knows where you're heading.
You begun steps to get there. And yet,
you have to
you know, it's sort of a Ci d
thing, you know, you're you're
you're in the crowd,
and I imagine and you're sort of speaking
to this thing of that you're you're going
to be and you are and yet
around you, god only knows. I mean, I'm
sure you're face with people that are rather
bigoted in that regard and and you hear
that. So how how that must feel?
Yeah. At work, especially.
I've heard trans comments.
I've been at work at this job since
they I got back home for 4 weeks,
and I've already had 3 instances of
just casual trans sylvia.
His first was
someone was telling me that
he didn't like the idea of, you know,
trans women in the bathroom with his daughter.
His hypothetical future daughter.
And
I had to have that conversation with him
saying, like,
you
you're gonna have to get over a sort
of thing and
basically him to the end of that conversation.
I think he understood a little bit better.
And he was a little... He was, like,
yeah.
I've just uncomfortable with it, but I guess,
I guess that's just the way the world
works. Do you think that's all learned ignorance
his fear is a learned fear. I think
about when noble bathroom thing came up and
where, you know, you can only use the
bathroom if the gender you were born as
is the... You know, whatever. The that That
gender is the 1 bathroom you have to
use. That if you have transition and let's
say, I'm now a man.
I still have to use the female bathroom
just... Or, do you know,
it's very confusing, which I find that insane
on so many levels first of all, but
mostly, I think about I was in college,
first of all, the female line bathroom was
way too long. I went in the man's
bathroom
all the time.
Nobody taught me. Nobody worried I was gonna
mole molested anyone. Nobody... I mean, what, fear
is such a ridiculous
Yeah. Emotion.
Trans people have been using the bathroom of
their gender identity.
Forever.
Which is forever.
I was recently reading about
the
and but the end of that point, I...
You know, They've been using the bathroom they
want to for for
forever. And there's never once been a case
of a trans woman mole lust
anyone in a ridiculous?
Have been plenty of cases
of trans women being attacked in the bathroom
of the of the sex they were gonna
assigned at birth because they were forced to
use that bathroom where they were too afraid
to not use that bathroom
someone... You know, Oh, you wanna be a
woman will let me, you know, do this
to you because that's what you get.
So it's for oh it's for our own
safety that we use the bathroom the of
our generate Identity. Yeah. So I was reading
the...
To speak to the whole trans a little
bit your forever. I was reading
thing about
you know, in the Native American culture,
people who are transgender
are
revered. They're they're called 2 spirits because they're
believed to be in touch with both the
male and the female
mind,
and so they...
And that's like a real thing that that,
since, like,
like, native Americans
cut off from, you know, like, European world
had trans people.
And they instead of demon digitizing them. They
revere them, they worship them.
Oh, many of the gods in methodologies
are of full sexes.
Yeah.
So, like, intersex, transgender, all these things.
They're real things. They're not just something that,
you know,
tumblr users on 20 16 have decided to
start doing. This is something that have happened
since
like, there haven't humans.
And it's a biological.
It's a neurological thing.
You know, like trans, women, for instance, their
brains
are
structured
more similar to,
a female brain than a male brain and
that's even before hormones,
they've been studies that have shown this, you
know, it's not just someone
wanting to wear room close. And that's the
key
understanding that I think a lot of people
want to come to for them to fully
accept trans people's.
Ask who they are. Yeah. Well, I think
people ignorance it's too, they'll not automatically assume
oh, that person must have been molested as
a child or that person didn't have a
particular parent that should love or maybe another
for, you know, for those a million
reasons that people that don't know better are
gonna come up with why.
Right? I mean, some of them might not
even get that far. They might just say,
oh, they're just gay.
Right. Which is not... I'm just because you're
transgender doesn't mean you wanna have sex with
the whatever gender you become, Mean, or not
become. I explain that because I'm gonna trip
over my tongue. Yeah.
Gender is fluid. Just a sexuality of fluid.
Is what I tried to. Yeah. And and
they're separately fluid. They don't have Absolutely.
You know, I a trans male friend means
that he was born female and has transitioned
to be on the boy he is today.
And he was
you know,
he was talking about on Twitter like, oh,
this...
He said,
he was quoting court he gets which is,
Oh, you
you, like, boys well why didn't you stay
a girl then?
And which is strong in so many levels
a, He doesn't wanna be with
men as a woman, he wants to be
with men as a man.
And b,
he,
the fact, like, to not to say that
that just ignores the fact that gender and
sex or
sexuality are
entirely separate things, and 1 does not influence
the other at all. You know, So
that's a common misconception. Yeah. I would imagine
it would be.
I know trans women who like, women, I
know trans women who, like men. I know
and same thing trans boys who, like,
other men and
transmit who, like, when. So, you know, It's
all it's all different. Yeah. Absolutely.
And then there's, like pan by all those
people. Every every type of this person there
is... There's a type of for that.
And what between pan and bisexual?
Bisexual,
my understanding, and I'm not and expert on
this enough to really speak to it, but
my understanding is you're bisexual,
you like men and women.
But you like men because of this men...
Masculine things about them. Be like, learning because
of their feminine qualities are the the... Who
they are as alone.
Pan, you like someone because... You will like
anybody because
but it's because of the person they aren't.
Like, they're full or something. That's so. Yeah.
And you would connect their soul and, you
know?
So you don't care what their gender is.
What their gender has no influence on how
you feel about this. That's. That makes sense.
Yeah. Yeah. That's how I thought it was
too. Okay.
So
at what point
you saw you you had come out to
your friends. At what point did you you
come out to your parents and explain how
that went.
I came out to my parents over
that way break between my time in Europe
and
the time back in school.
So you wrote the essay sa. Yeah. I
wrote the essay and III
left Essay on the...
The answer that had written back in September.
I love that on,
the
like, kitchen table or something.
It told my dad had something that I
wanted to read.
And then I
what to taco bell and waited until I
got a text message.
And,
you know,
they were supportive, And I knew they would
be supportive.
I think my dad took some time for
him to really come in terms of it.
And,
you know, I had a conversation with him
that I don't wanna go into too much
detail, but wanna go back ever Had of
conversation with him
about the whole
situation and
you know,
At this point now, like, 6 months after
that initial
coming out.
They are, like, as supportive, like, can possibly
help. So... That's great. So, yeah, I feel
very lucky that a lot of trans people
will have a way worse than do. Well,
I that's why there's so many trans homeless
and gay and that's being homeless.
It almost... It seems... It's it's funny because,
you know, I know
when you when you talk about this sort
of thing,
everything gets lumped together, which is why I
think it confuses people the think that trans
sec... Trans sexual has something to do with
sexuality.
Because every everything gets lumped together which, in
a way, almost I think is
a disservice to each individual person.
Yeah. And I think in a way, it's...
And I'm not
actually placing blame here. But, in a way,
I think it might be the Lt
can we useful vault because,
you know,
we call ourselves the Lgbt will not L
lgbtq, a club there's a lot of their
colors now. But
but a lot of times we still say
just that be,
which to me, I think is silly because
we have 3 different words for
for sexually queer,
you know, Lesbian
bisexual gay
And then we have 1 word transgender that
just encompasses all the gender clear people
and
we and that we those those 4... Or
those... This group is combined together as 1
sort of movement
because we're so marginalized.
Though, sure. And that makes sense. Works well
we have to form this coalition to actually
make any progress. Sure. But now that
you know, being gay, I'm not gonna say,
especially like in the wake of the orlando
shooting I think like that, but it's, like,
normal and okay
to a lot of, like, in the world
now. Like, if they're
device is not over, but
the
sexually clear movement is
so much farther along than the gender crew,
you know,
people who are gender clear are just now
getting visibility,
and
I...
I was just reading an article saying,
basically, the trans movement
is at where the, like, the
gay and lesbian movement...
Like the like, sexual queer movement was
in, like, 2003.
So we're, like, 15 years behind. Now I
think the the rate of acceptance
will grow
faster if that makes sense. I, like, I
I think we are progressing as a as
a country as a society as a world
faster than we were back then because I...
But it's still true that we are much
farther behind. And so in a way, the
t
may be benefited
if from
having its own
group because the 2 things aren't the same
and because they've been associated together so long
people assumed they're the same. Sure. And it's
totally understandable that that you would all come
together as 1 collision just because
it's a more powerful
force to be reckon with for sure, but
I do think it's probably confused people. But,
you know, that's what education is about to
not be afraid to learn something about your
fellow human being. This... It's a novel. Like
it's not idea. I know. But
For sure. What...
So
I'm trying to remember. Now I I can't
have a conversation with someone who's transgender
without bringing up the
there there have been transgender people forever,
and I find it really fascinating that
and famous.
By the way, but Caitlyn Jenner, of course,
got all the limelight because, you know, they
had that Tv show and all that. But
long before, Caitlyn Jenner,
There were others?
Yeah. You know, visible others.
Do...
I'd like to speak to that a little
bit. Do you
do you think that Caitlyn jenner
transition
helped
the cause of of having our acceptance or
hindered it because
of who she was before.
I was actually I was watching a
had talk
sort of about sort of about this.
Or at least it started being the about
this and it sort of evolved. But,
the,
I think it definitely helped.
You know, someone who was an American hero
be
coming out as trans.
Basically,
like I think
fast forwarded where we were at
as a movement, you know,
significantly
because all of a sudden, everyone had talking
about it. Yeah.
And once people are talking about it, that's
when change happens.
You know,
I personally know
people
who... Their first reaction when Caitlyn Jenner came
out as trans what's to say sorry? I'm
still gonna call you, Bruce or
things like that.
That was, like, like,
Just over a year ago, I have, like,
friends who said that. And now a year
later, those same friends I've told that I'm
trans and they've nothing but supportive.
And,
you know, calling me by Katie instead of
my birth name,
and
did I think
while I don't like Caitlyn Jenner for the
person she is, you know, she was Shaw
advocate. She
killed somebody and we haven't talked about that
for a while, Be like, but and, you
know, doesn't
support
Lgbt rights, she doesn't...
Steve was on Ellen once
saying that she didn't support gay marriage, even
though she was trans herself.
You know, I don't like her the person,
but I do respect what she did. I
don't think she should've have won woman of
the year. I think there's so a better
trans woman who could been woman of the
year, but
on the other hand, if even 1 trans
person saw Caitlyn jenner coming out and winning
a woman of the year and thought, oh,
you know, if there is hope for the
future. Right. I'm not having gonna put down
this razor or whatever,
then, you know,
so soviet. Like, woman of the year, I
don't... I couldn't tell you who anyone else
who's 1 1 of the year. And so
it's not that I'm not actually upset that
she won,
that
that award,
to be honest, I just think
in general, she's been forced for good. Well,
wouldn't be wonderful if 1 day, we just
got to person of the ear.
Yeah.
Instead of black white, green red, orange, gay,
straight, wow, you know. Just person.
I was having conversation with someone about, like,
the Oscar nominations. You know that we have
best male actor, best female actor. And
somewhat like, it it was a group of
us. And 1 person was like, well, I
don't know why we gender that. We shouldn't
gender our awards.
But then,
someone said, well do you think if it
was just best actor,
a woman would ever have won it,
you know,
because we're still so sexist as this hoodie
that I think... Oh, I do Sw.
Yeah. Yeah. Stupid bro. Yeah. But
told them not to let. Veterans of probably,
like decades where male after male actor winning
every time. And, you know,
So I think in that sense, we gender
it for
before,
you know, the the marginalized groups
sake.
So
I... We person the year when we awarded
die... To own diapers.
Sure. Absolutely.
Yeah. Absolutely.
It's all. I mean,
it's also fascinating. Just the way humans try
so hard to put people into groups.
Yep. To make themselves feel
superior
or more comfortable.
Sometimes just not even about superiority. I think
it's definitely about comfort levels and
But I think we are moving towards generations,
the the people being born now, for example,
it probably won't this won't even be an
issue. They won't even...
They won't think there'll be something else to
hate. Something
Aliens, but then we'll have landed. They're like,
god, hate those aliens.
L.
For the aliens.
Wow.
So... Okay. So you've come out to your
parents
and
you you're down to go
more difficult than your... Why do you think
that is? Just the whole father son thing
to That bothers son
relationship
can you speak up a little? Sorry. Yeah.
Sorry. What? Oh, Yeah yeah. I think it
is that bothers son relationship and you. He
has friends who are trans, So it's not
like he doesn't think being trans. Okay. I
think it took a while for to accept
that his own child was trans. Sure.
Because he didn't want that for me
for my own sake, you know, and but
I don't even want it for me at
this point in time. They I'm hoping at
some point and I feel like proud.
Happy for who I am, but at this
point in time, I I would still... If
you could make me sis with a press
of button.
I would do it hands now. Meaning born
born that way? Yeah. Yeah. Well,
born... Born in the gender you identify as.
I want.
But so he he was, like, imagining how
hard my life was going to be, and,
you know,
and he saw his own relationship with me
changed,
which...
So was just a few roadblocks for him,
but
Nothing nothing he couldn't handle him. Do you
see your relationship with him has changed?
No. I mean, I always really focused this
way, but I have just necessary to define
it, but, I've always felt this way, and
I...
Now that he knows it doesn't change the
fact that I
new. And
I still view him
the same, and
you know, there's, like, little changes, you know,
don't wanna I wanted him to call and
Katie, but
I still
want to be, you know,
I don't I don't feel any different about
the way our relationship is And so once
he sort of cameo terms who I really
am.
I think now he's, you know,
not he doesn't didn't have that issue anymore.
So you will identify it as his daughter,
not his son anymore. Correct?
I had this conversation the other day with
somebody and
in, you know, anticipation of this
conversation with you, Katie, and
I spoke about the relation between you and
your father, and I said, dino know, it's
interesting because... And you and your grandfather, you
know, 2 males in your family,
and
how they... And again, this is this is
me just sort of
assuming how I must feel because I don't
know I'm not dumb. But the idea of,
like, they're looking at you, you're saying, hey,
I was actually... I'm... I'm the same person.
Because you are. You're the exact same person,
but you're just... Your... The meat stick you're
in is gonna change a into a different
meat stick. Right? And but in general, your
soul is the same. Your mind's the same.
Everything that makes you you. Everything that
you're... And again, anyway, I think about... I'm
gonna segue away a little bit. But either
I think about, like, the religious, the hyper
religious who are very much against trans.
Yeah speaking for that particular. I don't think
all religious people are like that, but I'm
speaking to the people who are.
That they're like, oh, well, That's an abomination.
Ended it up. But if you believe in
a soul, you're the same soul. You're just
in a different gooey stick, you know, blood
and corpus or whatever.
So,
like, you and I are talking, and I'm
thinking,
Katie or the name you were born with,
you know, you're the exact
same person as far as your heart and
your mind and your soul.
Why do you think it is that people
wanna all of a sudden be like, oh,
what's your
You're you're not because you're gonna become this
other, but you're not really becoming this other
person You always have been that person. You
were just stuck in the wrong meat stick.
I keep using needs stick because it seems
like the funny a funny way to put
it but that's all it is. Right?
Did that make any sense? I don't even
know if there was a question in there.
I was more like a ramble, but...
Let's seems like you're asking, like, why are
people why are people?
So find it's so hard to
accept trans as trans people.
I think it's a lot of things.
1 thing probably is a lack of empathy,
you know, or
they imagine they are since
so they can't they just can't imagine
what it would be like to,
you know,
feel anything, but the way they feel.
And so when they see someone who looks
like them
acting in a way that they don't act.
They think
like, that's not normal. I, I can't... I
can't imagine myself doing that. So why do
you do that? That's weird are you're strange.
And what they should think is
if they... They're projecting, you know, their own
their own gender identity onto the gender identity
needed the person who's doing that. If they
were to really think about it it,
and still project that identity on them and
think, oh,
if this person has the same identity I
do, and I would never do that.
Then they they shouldn't do that instead of
doing that, they should say, oh,
they must have a different identity because If
I wouldn't do that, the they and the
fact that they are doing that is a
is a given, and there's no way they
feel the same way I feel. I should,
you know, come to realize that they must
have looked at this differently than I do...
And so that's like, you know, I think
something that people should try to realize
if they're gonna project they should just go
a step further and realize why projecting
isn't correct.
Well, we can all... None of us can
can see anything except through our own paradigm.
And then in our own experience and our
own
sense itself. And that goes without saying that's
just part of being a human being. But
I think more what I was speaking to
is
you... At least is how I see it.
And maybe that's the wrong way to see
it. I don't know is that
who you were born
who you were born as this is the
exact same person that's who you are now.
The only difference is it's if as if
you unzip
this suit and he went put on a
different suit. Does that...
If you were born without skin,
Right?
That being
is the exact same being. You're just gonna
put on a different skin suit, and now
you're gonna... Because you've always been that person
you've been hiding and pretending
I don't know. Maybe I'm confusing myself, but
it makes sense in my very bizarre brain.
I don't
I think
in time come that
to think the way. Think in time people
will come to realize that
and think of it that way, but
yeah.
Yeah. Once sort of goes through it differently.
How long does it take to transition?
All my life?
I,
you know, I... Right now, I, you know,
I take a pill every day. To stop
the
on of testosterone,
and then I
take... Have a shot every week
to add esp to my bloodstream.
And I'll be doing that for the rest
of my life.
Oh, it's... Okay. It's all your life. You
have to... Okay.
The
if I decide to
get 6 reassign surgery
then at that point,
I can do that. I I... The soon
deal able to do that
is a year from now or
depending on the weight list it could be
2 years.
Why is it so long?
Well, you gotta go, the doctor who's good
at it.
Which they're very good, and
there's the high demand.
Really?
Yeah.
So the wait list...
If I were to sign up today for
it, I would probably not get in
for a year or 2.
But also, you know, my insurance does cover.
That's amazing. Yeah. That's something that a lot
of trans people don't have. So III
acknowledge that, and I I am appreciative over
that. How is it that that there's just...
That is that in every policy or just
some? Or because you live in a really
progressive state.
Yeah. I think yeah
the
company that my dad has or whatever.
Don't know. I'm not exactly sure why it
is, but it is what it is. Awesome.
So...
But their stipulation are. I need I need
a letter from a
gender psychologist or psychiatrist rather.
I need a,
to live full time as a woman for
a year.
And
after Goes to... The 2 stipulation, I have
to have a letter tell him saying that
this is what I need, and
I have to had experience being woman for
a full year. Have you started therapy for
that?
Yeah. I start. That was the first thing
I did when I got by comfort for
sorry. How's that going?
Fine. I don't know. I'm a big believer
in therapy. I love some therapy.
I haven't felt like, any a huge breakthroughs
yet. I'm not really sure.
But I also...
I don't really know when to compare it
to. So... What are they looking for just
to have you not say, maybe I wanna
stay a boy. They want make sure that
you know exactly what it is you want.
I suppose... Yeah. I... Yeah. I guess... Yeah.
They're just... You know, they want an expert
in the field to be like, yeah, That's
the best call.
But...
Man and they they I think at the
end end of the day, they just care
about the liability.
They don't wanna be sued.
If I were to down the line and
be like, oh, why did I do this?
Why'd you let me do this? I'm gonna
sue you? They want to be able sure
this what you want. Yeah. America's very lit.
That makes sense. Do you know yet what
you want? And that's a very personal question.
You don't have to answer. But just do
you in your own Do you know in
your mind what you want right now? It
may change. I don't know. I have an
idea,
but I can't really
you know, so far away. Yeah. Right. So
can you get on the winning list before
you you go and live life as a
woman and and do that? Or do you
that you do have to actually lived the
life with the letter and all that stuff
and then get on the list, Or do
you know?
I don't know at what point in the
process I do the whole payment thing. So
basically, a year before I pay, I will
need to have lived as a woman Oh,
is it an expensive surgery? I imagine it
must be? It's like 26000 dollars
for autumn century.
For a female. Does it? How you Is
it in America? Or is it often Sweden
or something? Norway america? I can get it.
You can go to, like, Thailand get it
for 5000 dollars.
And some people do that. I would ever
do that. That's
seems risky to me.
But, yeah, it is in America. There's a
the office that I would go to if
I decide to do it is in Los
Angeles for this lake wanted in,
I think Philadelphia,
maybe it's concerned. Somewhere in Pennsylvania.
And then,
you know, there's a there's a few scattered
around.
Johns Hopkins used to have
back in the seventies, they used to have
a gender
or sex or assignment,
surgery clinic,
they that they would provide for trans people
but
the
that they came under attack in the seventies
for
providing this and they shut it down. So
that's sort of a
kinda heartbreaking breaking thing that happened,
you know,
a a while ago, but
Are you scared about all this?
Like, about transitioning. Mh.
Yeah. I mean,
I go back and forth.
Some days, I'm like, yeah. Let's do this,
you know,
other days I'm, like, I'm not sure if
this is
if I'm going to...
The the option... I never have the option
that I'm they go back to what I
was,
that's not an option.
So some days, I'm, like, yeah. I'm excited.
Sometimes days I'm like, boom, I'm less excited,
but this is what I have to do.
And other days, I'm like, I don't wanna
do anything at all. I just want T
be done.
But
recently,
the last week or so,
it's been all positivity,
and I attribute you back to the fact
that I'm actually making progress.
Getting the shots and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.
And I went to the
pride parade
on a
last weekend yes part an empowering. Type thing.
Yeah.
So when you were
struggling with trying to figure out your identity
when as you were growing up, and we
talked that you had some real dark times.
And again,
transgender
suicide rates are through the roof.
Yeah. It's hard enough to be a human
being on this planet, but then you there
are some interesting things on the mix and
Yikes. So would do you mind speaking to
some of that just for anyone who might
be out listening to...
Yeah.
I
had a lot of days when
at nights when I.
Wasn't really sure if I wanted to
be alive the next day. You know,
this idea that
even when I finish transitioning, I'll still not
be the perfect
person that I wanna be,
because I will have,
you know,
I
never wanted to be trans. And I still
don't really want to be trans. I just...
Want I want to have been
female from the start.
And so I'm I've always been worried that,
like, it's...
I've always scared of this idea that it
won't be enough
once say transition.
But...
And I've also said still in the middle
of the process, you know,
I...
It's not... I haven't been through it. You
know, I... Haven't, like, I'm not looking back
on it. Right now. I'm in. I'm looking
around at it.
So I would just tell
anyone who also has...
Who's also struggling with this who also
doesn't know
if
tomorrow was gonna be either last day on
earth or anything like that.
To...
I would tell them
tomorrow won't be my last day on there.
I am going to fight through this, and
I really hope that
you will do so as well.
Not just for your sake, but for all
our sakes.
And
I've been told to get better. So let's
figure let's find that out together. So...
Yeah. And
even if you don't see it, you know,
you are a beautiful person, just the fact
that you exist and
Pay amen to that.
Yeah.
So
it's worth it.
It'll be worth it.
I hope you believe that too.
It helps to say,
Yeah.
Imagine.
Is there anything else you'd like to talk
about?
I mean I could talk on hours, but
We can. Is there anything that we didn't
cover that... I mean, I know we're gonna
talk again and that'll be great when, you
know, further down the line as you
get further through your treatments and things.
But I I mean, it's anything that you
wanna to pinpoint or discuss that we haven't
covered.
I think,
I would like to speak really quickly to
the
a week ago at the San francisco pride
parade,
I think of trans, Americans burn the American
flag.
It's like a protest.
Yeah. And it's all all over facebook right
now. A lot of people are, like, how
are you're expecting, you know, trans people to,
or or how are you're expecting people care
about your issues if you're gonna disrespect to
flag like that.
Alright. You can't give you to listen when
you act like this.
And I just wanna quickly say, like,
it's not, like, and a a lot of
people are, like, expecting trans people to have,
like, an opinion about this or they're like,
how do you feel about this or
you're gonna say something about this,
is not...
And I just wanna say is it's that
you're not trans people's responsibility to
denounce
other trans people's actions, you know, we are
not a c cohesive suit
group and what 1 person does does not
is no reflection on whatever Else does. However,
if you are someone who
has not spoken about
the
fact that, you know, 20 16 is the
most dangerous year to be trans ever,
or the fact that you've you've never once
made a Facebook post about
you know,
how trans teams are have the highest that
rates to the fact that or you never
called out these atrocious bathroom laws,
and now you're sharing a thing about trans
people
burning a flag and you say, how are
you expecting people to listen to you when
you do something like this, you weren't listening
anyway. You know, the... And
at least now you're talking about it.
And it's
very
sad to me that you
only that you care now that there's a
flag being burned, but you didn't care when
their human lives being lost. Sure. So... Yeah.
I just want you to, like, take a
look in the mirror and say, Yeah. I
do I only care now,
and
maybe I can start carrying the future. So
that's just. It is interesting how people wanna
love for terrorism is a great example. You
know, I have many deer muslim some friends
who have never killed anyone and don't intend
to. And yet, somehow, for some reason because
there's a chunk of really
horrible acting humans speaking in the name of
a an entire religion, and my friends feel
threatened.
You know, and feel unsafe.
You know, and people I very much love
and admire and respect,
be they gay or straight or, you know,
whatever,
anytime
anyone lumps.
Everyone together
like that, it it makes me crazy. And
if no 1 ever holds
straight white, this man accountable where for their
action. That was counting for
specific straight white men
actions. Like, no. The whole straight Cis white
community is not at fault for the actions
of 1 person ever. The 1 ever says
that. So why do people do that for
Minorities minority here. Yeah. It's it's so easy
to point fingers at other people. I mean,
it just didn't make... Unfortunately, it's
it makes the ego feel much better about
themselves and they can direct attention at something
else as being wrong.
Yeah. You know?
I didn't even hear about that flag thing.
Yeah. I... I tried not to go online
too much ironically because you know, podcast podcasts
or online, but it just... It makes me
create... The news makes me so crazy.
Yeah.
I really appreciate you talking to me Katie.
Yeah. Thank you for having me on. Yeah.
Or being back on in the future. Yeah.
And good luck with everything.
Thanks. Yeah.
Alright. Have a great day.
Thanks everybody for listening. I just wanna
say that any of you
are trying to figure some stuff out.
Transgender,
by
Lesbian
straight, whoever, all of you, everyone.
All people.
There are some great resources. There's a Trevor
project.
Their lifeline is 8664
you Trevor, which is 8664887386.
There's the national suicide
prevention lifeline at 1 800 273
talk.
There's a trans lifeline at 8775658860.
And
there's also
advocacy groups out there. The national center for
transgender equality,
gender proud
advocates glad dot org, which is GLAAD
dot 0RG.
There's black trans advocacy, trans
coalition. There's lots of stuff out there.
Please.
I know
just life can be hard. And I can
only imagine what life is like when you're
trying to be, who you really are in
a world of people thinking you should be
exactly like everybody else.
So that being said,
stay strong. You are loved.
And as Katie eloquently put it, you are
beautiful,
and
we need you, the world needs you, don't
give up. Alright?
Bye bye.