1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,719 Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here. 2 00:00:10,719 --> 00:00:12,740 Thanks for listening to another episode 3 00:00:13,199 --> 00:00:14,820 of Hey, human podcast. 4 00:00:15,894 --> 00:00:18,375 This is episode 461, 5 00:00:18,375 --> 00:00:21,255 and my guest is Andrea Lieb. Her memoir, 6 00:00:21,255 --> 00:00:23,894 Such a Pretty Picture, powerfully narrates her life 7 00:00:23,894 --> 00:00:25,515 and offers an honest insight 8 00:00:25,815 --> 00:00:27,515 into a survivor's journey. 9 00:00:27,894 --> 00:00:29,035 I read the book 10 00:00:29,574 --> 00:00:30,074 and 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,300 before I spoke with Andrea, 12 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:33,979 and it is 13 00:00:34,679 --> 00:00:37,479 superbly written. It's easy to read. It flows 14 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,299 really quickly. 15 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:39,820 It is intense. 16 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,560 I got mad. I got sad. I felt 17 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:44,859 triumph for her. 18 00:00:45,454 --> 00:00:48,594 It's it's really something. And you can preorder 19 00:00:48,655 --> 00:00:50,734 it now. It's available on all the places 20 00:00:50,734 --> 00:00:51,554 you get books. 21 00:00:51,934 --> 00:00:53,554 Highly, highly, highly recommend. 22 00:00:54,015 --> 00:00:56,674 Trigger warning, incest, sexual assault. 23 00:00:57,054 --> 00:00:59,134 This is a big episode as far as, 24 00:01:00,310 --> 00:01:02,390 the things that it might stir up in 25 00:01:02,390 --> 00:01:04,950 you listeners, and I just I wanna make 26 00:01:04,950 --> 00:01:06,969 sure that you are prepared 27 00:01:07,430 --> 00:01:09,049 and take care of yourselves, 28 00:01:09,750 --> 00:01:10,250 and, 29 00:01:10,709 --> 00:01:13,494 you know, self practice self care. Andrea is 30 00:01:13,494 --> 00:01:16,134 also a retired lawyer. She's a former nurse 31 00:01:16,134 --> 00:01:16,954 and has written 32 00:01:17,254 --> 00:01:18,075 for numerous 33 00:01:18,375 --> 00:01:21,575 literary journals. She also advocates for survivors of 34 00:01:21,575 --> 00:01:25,015 sexual assault, volunteering at the UCLA Rape Treatment 35 00:01:25,015 --> 00:01:28,829 Center and Stewart House, and mentoring young women 36 00:01:28,829 --> 00:01:32,049 from post conflict and climate challenged countries. 37 00:01:32,990 --> 00:01:33,810 She's a badass. 38 00:01:34,670 --> 00:01:36,850 If you or anyone you know is experiencing 39 00:01:37,070 --> 00:01:38,689 incest or sexual assault, 40 00:01:39,344 --> 00:01:40,085 please contact 41 00:01:40,545 --> 00:01:42,805 the National Sexual Assault Hotline. 42 00:01:43,344 --> 00:01:46,885 It's +1 806564673. 43 00:01:47,185 --> 00:01:49,825 You can reach out to rainn.org. 44 00:01:49,825 --> 00:01:52,950 That's rainn.0rg. 45 00:01:53,030 --> 00:01:54,250 If you're living overseas, 46 00:01:54,709 --> 00:02:00,890 you can call RAINN at +1 (202) 501-4444. 47 00:02:01,429 --> 00:02:04,569 Talk to somebody you trust. Tell a teacher 48 00:02:04,709 --> 00:02:05,209 or 49 00:02:05,670 --> 00:02:08,169 a safe parent or a safe family member 50 00:02:08,825 --> 00:02:10,764 and there's help out there. 51 00:02:11,305 --> 00:02:14,185 General stuff. Check out heyhumanpodcast.com 52 00:02:14,185 --> 00:02:15,784 for links and to learn more about my 53 00:02:15,784 --> 00:02:18,745 guests and the show. Check out susanruth.com 54 00:02:18,745 --> 00:02:20,745 to learn more about me and my other 55 00:02:20,745 --> 00:02:21,724 artistic endeavors. 56 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,560 Please follow Susan Ruthism on social media. Find 57 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,740 my music on Spotify, Apple Music, 58 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,620 Amazon Music, or wherever you get your music. 59 00:02:31,159 --> 00:02:33,980 Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human Podcast 60 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,680 on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast, 61 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:37,180 Spotify, 62 00:02:38,205 --> 00:02:38,705 iHeart, 63 00:02:39,645 --> 00:02:41,485 it's all over the place. And thank you 64 00:02:41,485 --> 00:02:42,145 for listening. 65 00:02:42,525 --> 00:02:43,344 Be kind, 66 00:02:43,645 --> 00:02:44,385 be well, 67 00:02:44,925 --> 00:02:45,745 be loved, 68 00:02:46,205 --> 00:02:47,504 and take care of yourself. 69 00:02:48,125 --> 00:02:49,105 Here we go. 70 00:02:49,980 --> 00:02:52,560 Andrea Lieb, welcome to Hey Human. 71 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:56,000 Thank you. I'm really excited to be here. 72 00:02:56,300 --> 00:02:58,480 Yeah. I read your book last night. 73 00:02:59,020 --> 00:03:00,159 Oh, wow. Okay. 74 00:03:00,860 --> 00:03:02,719 It's, it's heavy, 75 00:03:03,340 --> 00:03:04,159 but also, 76 00:03:04,860 --> 00:03:05,360 triumphant. 77 00:03:05,875 --> 00:03:07,474 Yeah. I think so. I I mean, I 78 00:03:07,474 --> 00:03:10,614 think one reviewer said it's a moving memoir 79 00:03:10,834 --> 00:03:13,254 of trauma with an uplifting conclusion. 80 00:03:13,555 --> 00:03:16,275 So It's incredibly well written as well. I 81 00:03:16,275 --> 00:03:18,854 have to say, having read a bazillion books, 82 00:03:19,074 --> 00:03:20,455 what I really appreciated 83 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:21,800 was 84 00:03:23,219 --> 00:03:23,719 how 85 00:03:24,180 --> 00:03:26,599 it's written in such a a well 86 00:03:27,379 --> 00:03:30,360 well receiving way. Then you could consume it 87 00:03:31,379 --> 00:03:33,300 at a at a rapid pace. It felt 88 00:03:33,300 --> 00:03:34,120 very much 89 00:03:34,419 --> 00:03:35,639 like I was there. 90 00:03:36,194 --> 00:03:37,175 I got mad. 91 00:03:37,715 --> 00:03:39,955 I got upset. I wanted to just rush 92 00:03:39,955 --> 00:03:42,354 in and take you out of there. You 93 00:03:42,354 --> 00:03:43,875 know, it brought up a lot of stuff. 94 00:03:43,875 --> 00:03:44,694 I had a, 95 00:03:45,314 --> 00:03:47,175 a childhood that was abusive. 96 00:03:47,794 --> 00:03:49,909 So, you know, the the little girl in 97 00:03:49,909 --> 00:03:51,909 me wanted to go and get the little 98 00:03:51,909 --> 00:03:52,889 girl in you 99 00:03:53,349 --> 00:03:55,750 and protect her. Thank you. I that means 100 00:03:55,750 --> 00:03:57,189 a lot to me. I mean, it really 101 00:03:57,189 --> 00:03:59,030 means a lot to me. You know, as 102 00:03:59,030 --> 00:04:00,549 a I've been a writer a long time. 103 00:04:00,549 --> 00:04:02,069 I didn't just one day wake up and 104 00:04:02,069 --> 00:04:03,594 say, oh, I'm gonna write a book. I 105 00:04:03,675 --> 00:04:05,354 I've been working you know, I've been writing 106 00:04:05,354 --> 00:04:07,275 most of my life. This book was a 107 00:04:07,275 --> 00:04:10,235 really hard choice to write for and I 108 00:04:10,235 --> 00:04:13,594 really worked hard to make it consumable. I 109 00:04:13,594 --> 00:04:15,435 guess that would be a word. You know, 110 00:04:15,435 --> 00:04:17,435 make it easy for people because I knew 111 00:04:17,435 --> 00:04:19,870 the subject is, you know, I was I 112 00:04:19,870 --> 00:04:22,110 spare nothing in the subject. I made it 113 00:04:22,110 --> 00:04:25,149 really raw. I chose to do that as 114 00:04:25,149 --> 00:04:27,810 a deliberate choice because I wanted people 115 00:04:28,189 --> 00:04:29,329 to experience 116 00:04:29,790 --> 00:04:32,209 what to the best that I could, what 117 00:04:32,430 --> 00:04:34,844 what childhood victims go through. 118 00:04:35,384 --> 00:04:37,865 And, and I wanted them to feel what 119 00:04:37,865 --> 00:04:39,944 I felt. But at the same time, I 120 00:04:39,944 --> 00:04:42,425 wanted to make sure the writing was kind 121 00:04:42,425 --> 00:04:44,824 of fast paced enough and quick enough so 122 00:04:44,824 --> 00:04:47,064 that people I knew that the subject would 123 00:04:47,064 --> 00:04:47,964 be somewhat 124 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,039 overwhelming at times, so I wanted the writing 125 00:04:51,039 --> 00:04:51,939 to be easier. 126 00:04:52,319 --> 00:04:54,319 So I really I really worked on that, 127 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:56,240 you know, to to make it simple, easy 128 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,240 for people to read. For such a heavy 129 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,039 subject, incredibly digestible. Even the way you set 130 00:05:01,039 --> 00:05:03,759 up the chapters, they they moved I write 131 00:05:03,759 --> 00:05:06,714 script. Right? So it moves like a script. 132 00:05:06,935 --> 00:05:08,935 I think I I'm a visual thinker, so 133 00:05:08,935 --> 00:05:11,514 that's probably part of it is I visualize 134 00:05:11,654 --> 00:05:13,415 things. So it might be part of my 135 00:05:13,415 --> 00:05:16,535 writing style anyway, but, again, that was really 136 00:05:16,535 --> 00:05:19,194 deliberate. And, yeah, digestible was more consumable. 137 00:05:20,139 --> 00:05:20,639 I 138 00:05:21,100 --> 00:05:23,020 mean, I feel like that's the same thing. 139 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:24,860 Such a Pretty Picture is the name of 140 00:05:24,860 --> 00:05:25,520 the memoir. 141 00:05:26,139 --> 00:05:27,120 Before we 142 00:05:27,580 --> 00:05:30,379 dive into just where you are now, let's 143 00:05:30,379 --> 00:05:31,199 go back. 144 00:05:31,819 --> 00:05:33,360 You grew up in New York 145 00:05:34,154 --> 00:05:35,835 just without I want people to read the 146 00:05:35,835 --> 00:05:36,654 book, so 147 00:05:36,955 --> 00:05:39,995 clearly we've intimated what is going on in 148 00:05:39,995 --> 00:05:41,835 the book. But can you give just an 149 00:05:41,835 --> 00:05:44,235 overview of childhood? I'll I'll start with just 150 00:05:44,235 --> 00:05:46,235 the beginning because it's it's easy, and it's 151 00:05:46,235 --> 00:05:47,370 on the back of the book, so it's 152 00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:49,529 not a big spoiler alert. I was four 153 00:05:49,529 --> 00:05:51,370 and a half when the first time my 154 00:05:51,370 --> 00:05:52,910 father gave me a bath. 155 00:05:53,370 --> 00:05:55,470 And it's an early, early memory. 156 00:05:55,770 --> 00:05:58,889 Truthfully, it's my clearest first memory. And my 157 00:05:59,625 --> 00:06:02,185 I knew when he was bathing me, he 158 00:06:02,185 --> 00:06:04,264 asked me to let him wash me with 159 00:06:04,264 --> 00:06:06,204 his hand. And I could tell from his 160 00:06:06,345 --> 00:06:08,584 his breathing and all I was really young, 161 00:06:08,584 --> 00:06:10,345 but I knew there was something wrong. He 162 00:06:10,345 --> 00:06:11,165 scared me. 163 00:06:11,625 --> 00:06:14,430 And when my mother walked in to check 164 00:06:14,430 --> 00:06:15,170 on us, 165 00:06:16,110 --> 00:06:18,269 she saw what was going on. And, you 166 00:06:18,269 --> 00:06:20,689 know, I it was, you know, in retrospect 167 00:06:20,750 --> 00:06:23,250 now as an older as an adult, I 168 00:06:23,470 --> 00:06:25,949 realized my father was masturbating. As a child, 169 00:06:25,949 --> 00:06:28,290 I wouldn't have known what masturbation was. 170 00:06:29,535 --> 00:06:30,514 She screamed, 171 00:06:30,814 --> 00:06:32,894 fell to the floor. And when she woke 172 00:06:32,894 --> 00:06:35,854 up, she was blind. My father caught her 173 00:06:35,854 --> 00:06:37,694 and she was blind and it was something 174 00:06:37,694 --> 00:06:40,274 called hysterical blindness. And I write 175 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,959 that my mother stayed hysterically blind for a 176 00:06:43,959 --> 00:06:44,459 month 177 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:47,819 and she was, you know, remained 178 00:06:48,759 --> 00:06:49,259 emotionally 179 00:06:49,879 --> 00:06:53,000 blind for decades. So the story is about 180 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:53,819 my surviving 181 00:06:54,199 --> 00:06:55,420 a long term childhood, 182 00:06:56,035 --> 00:06:58,055 sexual abuse and other abuse 183 00:06:58,835 --> 00:07:01,814 and about my and also about 184 00:07:02,355 --> 00:07:02,855 realizing 185 00:07:03,395 --> 00:07:05,555 I kept it very, very much a secret 186 00:07:05,555 --> 00:07:08,115 for a long time and realizing that, you 187 00:07:08,115 --> 00:07:11,270 know, holding the secret was as almost as 188 00:07:11,270 --> 00:07:13,990 destructive as the abuse itself. So that's what 189 00:07:13,990 --> 00:07:15,750 the book is about. You know, my hope 190 00:07:15,750 --> 00:07:17,770 here is to raise awareness on childhood 191 00:07:18,150 --> 00:07:19,129 sexual abuse, 192 00:07:19,670 --> 00:07:20,889 incest in particular, 193 00:07:21,670 --> 00:07:23,050 as well as 194 00:07:23,504 --> 00:07:26,085 to give other people who are still suffering 195 00:07:26,225 --> 00:07:27,525 or or not speaking, 196 00:07:27,985 --> 00:07:30,165 maybe the courage to speak to somebody, 197 00:07:30,625 --> 00:07:33,665 a therapist, a trusted friend, and also to 198 00:07:33,665 --> 00:07:35,425 give them a glimmer of hope that healing 199 00:07:35,425 --> 00:07:37,439 is possible. Because the fact that I wrote 200 00:07:37,439 --> 00:07:39,939 the book, I obviously shows that I've healed, 201 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:41,519 but I have. So 202 00:07:42,079 --> 00:07:43,360 And I saw that you give some of 203 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,300 the proceeds to RAIN, which is extraordinary. 204 00:07:45,759 --> 00:07:48,524 Yeah. I'm actually giving all the proceeds away. 205 00:07:48,524 --> 00:07:51,644 I'm I'm really lucky that I, you know, 206 00:07:51,644 --> 00:07:53,644 I worked as an attorney for a long 207 00:07:53,644 --> 00:07:55,884 time, and my husband and I talked about 208 00:07:55,884 --> 00:07:57,185 it when I wrote the book. 209 00:07:57,644 --> 00:07:58,524 And this is, 210 00:07:59,165 --> 00:08:00,785 this is the book unexpectedly 211 00:08:01,404 --> 00:08:02,705 turned into an advocacy 212 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,180 and a life of I'm really realized 213 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:08,800 that what, where I am in my life 214 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,879 right now, I'm no longer practicing law and 215 00:08:10,879 --> 00:08:13,779 I am really fully dedicating myself to advocacy 216 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,819 on this issue. I just recently was 217 00:08:17,274 --> 00:08:20,334 asked to join the advisory board for UCLA 218 00:08:20,394 --> 00:08:23,675 rape treatment center and Stewart House, and I 219 00:08:23,675 --> 00:08:26,014 volunteer at Stewart House once a week. 220 00:08:26,314 --> 00:08:28,875 I'm getting involved in other organizations. So I'm 221 00:08:28,875 --> 00:08:31,779 giving all the rest of the proceeds 25% 222 00:08:31,779 --> 00:08:34,580 to RAIN. They they run a hotline, which 223 00:08:34,580 --> 00:08:35,240 is national, 224 00:08:35,779 --> 00:08:37,879 and the rest to local organizations. 225 00:08:38,259 --> 00:08:40,440 If I'm speaking, I have some book events 226 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:41,000 scheduled. 227 00:08:41,504 --> 00:08:44,144 And if I'm speaking in a community, then 228 00:08:44,144 --> 00:08:46,785 I'm looking up the local rape treatment center, 229 00:08:46,785 --> 00:08:49,105 and I'm gonna be giving anything that comes 230 00:08:49,105 --> 00:08:50,004 from that bookstore 231 00:08:50,465 --> 00:08:53,024 or that event also to that local center. 232 00:08:53,024 --> 00:08:55,320 It's more of a, you know, authors don't 233 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,159 make a lot of money. This is symbolic 234 00:08:57,159 --> 00:08:59,399 as much as anything. Let's be real. But 235 00:08:59,399 --> 00:09:01,820 I really want to make this, 236 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,159 it's a passion now. Strange. I did not 237 00:09:05,159 --> 00:09:07,899 expect that to happen, but I've become incredibly 238 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:09,320 public about this. So 239 00:09:10,174 --> 00:09:13,095 That's healing though. Yeah. It's a new I 240 00:09:13,095 --> 00:09:14,834 I call it, you know, 241 00:09:15,294 --> 00:09:16,654 I I thought I was healed when I 242 00:09:16,654 --> 00:09:18,254 started writing the book and I was to 243 00:09:18,254 --> 00:09:20,834 a large extent. And, you know, I couldn't 244 00:09:20,894 --> 00:09:22,754 have excavated these memories 245 00:09:23,079 --> 00:09:25,079 and put this on paper without a lot 246 00:09:25,079 --> 00:09:26,779 of therapy and a lot of healing. 247 00:09:27,159 --> 00:09:29,899 But it gave me another layer of healing. 248 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,279 And to be honest, I went back into 249 00:09:32,279 --> 00:09:34,539 therapy when I was writing the book because 250 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,634 I, I really felt the need to be 251 00:09:37,774 --> 00:09:39,235 in therapy again 252 00:09:39,855 --> 00:09:40,914 to to really 253 00:09:41,615 --> 00:09:43,154 it was comp it's complicated, 254 00:09:43,455 --> 00:09:46,254 you know, and you're you're you're telling not 255 00:09:46,254 --> 00:09:48,414 only your secret, but the secret of your 256 00:09:48,414 --> 00:09:49,394 family. And 257 00:09:49,990 --> 00:09:52,090 I know it's gonna sound really counterintuitive. 258 00:09:52,629 --> 00:09:54,470 Well, my father, I really didn't 259 00:09:55,429 --> 00:09:57,610 I I can't really say I loved him. 260 00:09:57,990 --> 00:10:00,230 I was relieved when he died, but my 261 00:10:00,230 --> 00:10:03,429 mother, regardless of her failure to protect me, 262 00:10:03,429 --> 00:10:04,815 I I really loved her. 263 00:10:06,254 --> 00:10:08,495 I did. Some people might disagree with that 264 00:10:08,495 --> 00:10:10,095 choice, but I loved her, and I kept 265 00:10:10,095 --> 00:10:11,934 her in my life. And it felt a 266 00:10:11,934 --> 00:10:13,634 little odd, you know, kind of 267 00:10:14,014 --> 00:10:16,095 not that she has a legacy, but ruining 268 00:10:16,095 --> 00:10:16,754 her legacy. 269 00:10:17,215 --> 00:10:19,159 You know? It's kind of like the author. 270 00:10:19,220 --> 00:10:21,779 My mother's not the author Alice Munro, but 271 00:10:21,779 --> 00:10:23,299 I don't know if you're familiar with that, 272 00:10:23,299 --> 00:10:26,259 but she, you know, her legacy was, you 273 00:10:26,259 --> 00:10:28,519 know, her daughter, who's also named Andrea, 274 00:10:29,059 --> 00:10:31,485 wrote about being abused by her stepfather, and 275 00:10:31,485 --> 00:10:33,565 it's really changed the way people look at 276 00:10:33,565 --> 00:10:34,465 Alice. And, 277 00:10:34,845 --> 00:10:37,245 you know, it probably will change the way 278 00:10:37,245 --> 00:10:39,245 people look at my mother. She's passed on 279 00:10:39,245 --> 00:10:41,904 now, so it's a little easier. I think 280 00:10:42,125 --> 00:10:45,024 when you are someone who has suffered complex 281 00:10:45,085 --> 00:10:45,585 trauma, 282 00:10:46,850 --> 00:10:48,629 for people that haven't experienced 283 00:10:49,009 --> 00:10:49,509 that, 284 00:10:50,370 --> 00:10:53,750 they don't quite maybe understand how convoluted 285 00:10:54,610 --> 00:10:57,110 the feelings of love and devotion. 286 00:10:57,889 --> 00:10:58,389 And 287 00:10:59,009 --> 00:11:01,125 even though you you low key hate this 288 00:11:01,125 --> 00:11:03,284 person, but you also love them, you want 289 00:11:03,284 --> 00:11:05,205 their attention, you want them to love you 290 00:11:05,205 --> 00:11:08,485 back, and it gets so confusing and so 291 00:11:08,485 --> 00:11:08,985 convoluted. 292 00:11:10,245 --> 00:11:12,424 And people say, well, why didn't you 293 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:14,759 tell someone or why don't you run away 294 00:11:14,759 --> 00:11:16,680 or why don't you and it's because you're 295 00:11:16,680 --> 00:11:18,540 also protecting your abuser. 296 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,879 Yes. And and I was and in the 297 00:11:21,879 --> 00:11:24,360 book I write about, you know, as a 298 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,125 young, I write about being an adolescent and 299 00:11:27,125 --> 00:11:30,345 a pre adolescent and wanting my father's attention. 300 00:11:30,404 --> 00:11:32,585 And at the same time, hating my father's 301 00:11:32,644 --> 00:11:33,144 attention 302 00:11:33,605 --> 00:11:34,904 and feeling responsible 303 00:11:35,285 --> 00:11:37,684 for the family. And, and for my mother, 304 00:11:37,684 --> 00:11:39,625 you know, the blindness was a really, 305 00:11:40,139 --> 00:11:43,019 you know, seeing that happen at that moment 306 00:11:43,019 --> 00:11:45,660 in time, I internalized it. I mean, my 307 00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:47,580 father didn't help by telling me it was 308 00:11:47,580 --> 00:11:48,240 my fault, 309 00:11:48,620 --> 00:11:51,179 but I internalized it for a long time. 310 00:11:51,179 --> 00:11:54,394 I really viewed myself as responsible for my 311 00:11:54,394 --> 00:11:56,095 mother's protection and happiness. 312 00:11:56,554 --> 00:11:59,034 And your mother's violence towards you was, you 313 00:11:59,034 --> 00:12:01,855 know, her internalized rage that she couldn't touch. 314 00:12:02,394 --> 00:12:05,434 Right. And yeah, my mother was violent toward 315 00:12:05,434 --> 00:12:06,955 me for a couple of years when I 316 00:12:06,955 --> 00:12:09,779 was a child. And, and I write about 317 00:12:09,779 --> 00:12:11,860 that too. It was as if she changed 318 00:12:11,940 --> 00:12:14,360 turned her rage at my father 319 00:12:15,059 --> 00:12:17,000 in outward toward me. 320 00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:19,700 And, you know, I can't speak to why 321 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:21,480 my mother stayed with my father. 322 00:12:21,965 --> 00:12:24,285 I I wasn't I'm not in her skin, 323 00:12:24,285 --> 00:12:24,785 but, 324 00:12:25,165 --> 00:12:26,925 you know, people ask me all the time 325 00:12:26,925 --> 00:12:29,325 whether I think she was abused. And I 326 00:12:29,325 --> 00:12:31,264 I just don't know the answer. I mean, 327 00:12:31,965 --> 00:12:34,205 this kind of child abuse is generational. This 328 00:12:34,205 --> 00:12:37,059 kind of trauma is generational. So if I 329 00:12:37,059 --> 00:12:40,600 were a, a guesser, I would say somewhere 330 00:12:40,659 --> 00:12:42,120 in her family history, 331 00:12:42,579 --> 00:12:44,679 there was some kind of of of 332 00:12:45,059 --> 00:12:47,940 sort of sexual abuse. I I would guess 333 00:12:47,940 --> 00:12:48,440 that. 334 00:12:48,914 --> 00:12:51,955 But I at far be my mother kept 335 00:12:51,955 --> 00:12:53,014 everything closed. 336 00:12:53,794 --> 00:12:57,254 Yeah. Well, it's definitely generally generational. And statistically 337 00:12:57,554 --> 00:13:01,095 speaking, it's more likely, yes, that that's true. 338 00:13:01,315 --> 00:13:03,174 Yeah. I would encourage that. 339 00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:05,779 Do you think you would have written the 340 00:13:05,779 --> 00:13:08,440 book had your parents still been living? 341 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:10,899 Well, my mom was alive when I wrote 342 00:13:10,899 --> 00:13:12,580 the book. She Oh, I thought she had 343 00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:15,220 passed already. Passed at when I wrote the 344 00:13:15,220 --> 00:13:15,720 epilogue. 345 00:13:17,235 --> 00:13:20,674 Ah, yes. This is Pam Houston, my, mentor, 346 00:13:20,674 --> 00:13:22,855 one of my men writing mentors said, 347 00:13:23,554 --> 00:13:25,954 you are not gonna completely finish this book. 348 00:13:25,954 --> 00:13:28,115 So she wrote she was alive through many 349 00:13:28,115 --> 00:13:29,414 drafts of this book. 350 00:13:29,875 --> 00:13:32,570 My father was dead. I probably couldn't have 351 00:13:32,570 --> 00:13:36,090 written it if my father was alive. It 352 00:13:36,090 --> 00:13:38,490 would have taken a little bit more my 353 00:13:38,490 --> 00:13:38,990 mother. 354 00:13:39,450 --> 00:13:42,410 I kept a relationship with my father, for 355 00:13:42,410 --> 00:13:44,924 better or worse, because I kept the relationship 356 00:13:45,065 --> 00:13:46,365 with my mother and 357 00:13:46,904 --> 00:13:48,365 that he was a nonnegotiable 358 00:13:48,745 --> 00:13:51,485 deal. And what that relationship looked like, 359 00:13:51,944 --> 00:13:52,444 it 360 00:13:53,144 --> 00:13:56,365 wasn't your typical father daughter relationship, obviously. 361 00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:59,509 My mother was still alive and I was 362 00:13:59,509 --> 00:14:01,350 actually taking care of her on and off 363 00:14:01,350 --> 00:14:02,730 while I was writing it. 364 00:14:03,430 --> 00:14:03,930 She 365 00:14:04,629 --> 00:14:06,310 kind of knew I was writing the book. 366 00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:08,710 My mother was always the biggest supporter of 367 00:14:08,710 --> 00:14:10,570 my writer. I have writing. 368 00:14:10,894 --> 00:14:13,134 I have an MFA in creative writing. And 369 00:14:13,134 --> 00:14:15,134 when I went back for it and, you 370 00:14:15,134 --> 00:14:16,975 know, I had this night once through the 371 00:14:16,975 --> 00:14:20,174 new fiction series where actors read my work, 372 00:14:20,174 --> 00:14:21,235 my short stories, 373 00:14:21,695 --> 00:14:23,600 and my mother flew out and She was 374 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,519 so proud of me. And everything I ever 375 00:14:25,519 --> 00:14:27,139 published, she wanted to read. 376 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,279 And not that I published a great deal, 377 00:14:29,279 --> 00:14:30,560 but I published. And, 378 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:32,100 she 379 00:14:32,879 --> 00:14:33,379 knew 380 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,095 I was writing this, but she she said, 381 00:14:37,095 --> 00:14:38,615 I know you're writing a book, and I 382 00:14:38,615 --> 00:14:40,535 know it's about your father, and I don't 383 00:14:40,535 --> 00:14:41,754 wanna talk about it. 384 00:14:42,855 --> 00:14:44,855 So I don't know if I could have 385 00:14:44,855 --> 00:14:47,274 published it. I think the the universe 386 00:14:47,662 --> 00:14:49,669 I I, if she was still alive, it 387 00:14:49,669 --> 00:14:51,110 would be a lot harder to be in 388 00:14:51,110 --> 00:14:51,850 this position. 389 00:14:52,470 --> 00:14:54,230 I, there's a big part of me. My 390 00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:56,470 mother wasn't well when I was writing it. 391 00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:58,629 And I, I knew it was more, not 392 00:14:58,629 --> 00:15:00,149 that I wished for her death because I 393 00:15:00,149 --> 00:15:02,329 didn't, but I knew it was more likely 394 00:15:02,605 --> 00:15:05,004 than not that she would be writing process 395 00:15:05,004 --> 00:15:07,004 takes a long time, you know, that she 396 00:15:07,004 --> 00:15:08,684 would be deceased by the time it came 397 00:15:08,684 --> 00:15:10,544 out. It did cross my minds. 398 00:15:11,404 --> 00:15:13,965 But, yeah, I I yeah. That was part 399 00:15:13,965 --> 00:15:15,504 of why I went into therapy. 400 00:15:16,799 --> 00:15:18,879 For sure. Well, I would think that therapy 401 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:20,019 would be important 402 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:22,820 while writing this just because even 403 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,120 if you felt like you were healed, it 404 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,419 would still your body 405 00:15:26,799 --> 00:15:28,419 doesn't understand timeline. 406 00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:30,179 Your body is feeling 407 00:15:30,884 --> 00:15:33,365 in the moment of the actual moment, as 408 00:15:33,365 --> 00:15:35,465 much as it is in the future self 409 00:15:35,524 --> 00:15:37,524 writing it. When I write in the book, 410 00:15:37,524 --> 00:15:39,445 healing is not linear. I mean, this is 411 00:15:39,445 --> 00:15:41,845 you don't walk out of, of any kind 412 00:15:41,845 --> 00:15:44,325 of program or have any kind of moment, 413 00:15:44,325 --> 00:15:46,320 even if you've had an epiphany, which, 414 00:15:47,039 --> 00:15:49,039 without giving away too much, I sort of 415 00:15:49,039 --> 00:15:51,460 had. But even if you have an epiphany 416 00:15:51,919 --> 00:15:52,660 of healing, 417 00:15:53,279 --> 00:15:56,160 you can't, you know, you can't walk out 418 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,259 and then one day go, oh, I'm perfectly 419 00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:01,085 fine. I think that, in fact, it's almost 420 00:16:01,085 --> 00:16:03,004 bad for people to think that way or 421 00:16:03,004 --> 00:16:04,384 or not healthy, not because, 422 00:16:05,325 --> 00:16:07,164 you know, it it puts so much pressure 423 00:16:07,164 --> 00:16:08,945 on you as a as a survivor, 424 00:16:09,565 --> 00:16:11,245 you know, to be able to you have 425 00:16:11,245 --> 00:16:14,304 to understand that there's steps backwards and forwards. 426 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:16,420 And especially you reference CPTSD 427 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:19,379 when it's this, you know, complex 428 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:20,180 CPTSD. 429 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,559 It's still with you. I mean, I still 430 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:25,680 jump when somebody comes up behind me too 431 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,059 closely. Your body, 432 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,059 you know, your body stays. 433 00:16:30,514 --> 00:16:32,774 You know, I interestingly, I found yoga, 434 00:16:33,315 --> 00:16:35,315 through writing this book or toward the end 435 00:16:35,315 --> 00:16:37,075 of this book. I was older, and I'd 436 00:16:37,075 --> 00:16:39,475 always run and done a lot of spinning 437 00:16:39,475 --> 00:16:42,774 and different activities. And I ended up finding 438 00:16:42,835 --> 00:16:45,240 yoga as as a rule of of this 439 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,799 book, which has opened my body in ways 440 00:16:47,799 --> 00:16:48,940 that I didn't even 441 00:16:49,399 --> 00:16:51,480 realize. You know, I was always kind of 442 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:52,940 ahead on a body. 443 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:55,740 Yeah. I understand that completely. 444 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:58,220 When you move through the world, 445 00:16:59,504 --> 00:17:03,424 do you look around and spot kids and 446 00:17:03,424 --> 00:17:05,585 think, oh my God, I know something's going 447 00:17:05,585 --> 00:17:06,085 on. 448 00:17:06,545 --> 00:17:08,884 I can see it in in young women, 449 00:17:09,744 --> 00:17:11,285 sometimes from their posture 450 00:17:11,849 --> 00:17:13,069 and and sometimes 451 00:17:13,369 --> 00:17:15,309 from children, if I see, 452 00:17:15,690 --> 00:17:18,650 you know, certain ways that if a parent 453 00:17:18,650 --> 00:17:21,150 is yelling and I can see children shrinking 454 00:17:21,210 --> 00:17:22,029 into themselves. 455 00:17:22,890 --> 00:17:25,849 And so it becomes more apparent. Although, you 456 00:17:25,849 --> 00:17:27,414 know, sometimes it's it's 457 00:17:27,714 --> 00:17:29,554 it's funny because, you know, doing the work 458 00:17:29,554 --> 00:17:31,954 at Stewart House, what Stewart House is is 459 00:17:31,954 --> 00:17:35,315 a treatment program that UCLA treatment center rape 460 00:17:35,315 --> 00:17:38,755 treatment center runs. And it's really unique because 461 00:17:38,755 --> 00:17:40,934 everything is at this one location 462 00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:44,119 and all the police, all the therapists, 463 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:46,019 so the children don't have to go running 464 00:17:46,019 --> 00:17:47,079 all over the place. 465 00:17:47,460 --> 00:17:49,940 And my volunteer work is I'm the play 466 00:17:49,940 --> 00:17:50,440 lady. 467 00:17:51,940 --> 00:17:54,019 So which is the best job I've ever 468 00:17:54,019 --> 00:17:57,284 had, I must admit. And the children walk 469 00:17:57,284 --> 00:18:00,005 in and, you know, wow. You know, the 470 00:18:00,005 --> 00:18:02,825 first thing is they're greeted by 471 00:18:03,284 --> 00:18:05,524 me or another play lady or play 472 00:18:06,244 --> 00:18:08,964 and they well, there's this big playroom, which 473 00:18:08,964 --> 00:18:11,544 is filled with donated toys and and 474 00:18:11,910 --> 00:18:13,690 really fun things to do. 475 00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:16,789 And they they're they're you know, say, hi. 476 00:18:16,789 --> 00:18:18,950 I'm here. I'm I'm the play lady. I'm 477 00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:21,109 wondering if you'd be interested in playing. And 478 00:18:21,109 --> 00:18:21,609 and 479 00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:24,390 watching the children when they come in because 480 00:18:24,390 --> 00:18:27,024 they're scared that body language is that body 481 00:18:27,024 --> 00:18:28,804 language, that that turtled 482 00:18:29,184 --> 00:18:32,464 they're turtles. And when they start playing, children 483 00:18:32,464 --> 00:18:35,024 are still really young children particularly are still 484 00:18:35,024 --> 00:18:35,924 really helpful. 485 00:18:36,384 --> 00:18:37,765 You know, they can still 486 00:18:38,170 --> 00:18:40,329 have those you see it. The joy comes 487 00:18:40,329 --> 00:18:41,549 quickly to them 488 00:18:42,089 --> 00:18:44,329 as opposed to, I think, the longer you 489 00:18:44,329 --> 00:18:46,349 know, by the time I was an adolescent 490 00:18:46,410 --> 00:18:47,869 or a pre adolescent, 491 00:18:49,049 --> 00:18:50,349 I was pretty hardwired 492 00:18:50,809 --> 00:18:53,390 to feeling bad and distrustful 493 00:18:54,144 --> 00:18:55,605 about the world in general. 494 00:18:56,304 --> 00:18:58,865 But yeah. So it's been really that's been 495 00:18:58,865 --> 00:19:01,585 really fun being having that opportunity to to 496 00:19:01,585 --> 00:19:02,644 be the play lady. 497 00:19:03,105 --> 00:19:05,984 That's lovely. And to how important it is 498 00:19:05,984 --> 00:19:08,704 to rewire the idea of play, because even 499 00:19:08,704 --> 00:19:10,440 in the book, that was one of the 500 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,679 things your dad said to you. Let I 501 00:19:12,679 --> 00:19:15,319 wanna play with you. Mhmm. And that how 502 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:16,700 that becomes bastardized 503 00:19:17,079 --> 00:19:19,259 of what what real play is versus 504 00:19:19,799 --> 00:19:22,440 not safe play. Wow. You know, you picked 505 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,674 up on something I wasn't even conscious of. 506 00:19:24,755 --> 00:19:27,394 So there you go. That that's really true. 507 00:19:27,394 --> 00:19:30,035 I had never even thought that till this 508 00:19:30,035 --> 00:19:31,095 moment, which 509 00:19:31,555 --> 00:19:33,315 gives me a note for therapy. But, 510 00:19:34,595 --> 00:19:35,414 you know, it's 511 00:19:35,875 --> 00:19:37,555 which is goes to the point that we're 512 00:19:37,555 --> 00:19:40,230 all healing and learning from this. Sometimes with 513 00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:41,849 the fingers put on the page, 514 00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:45,830 the conscious doesn't even we're not even conscious 515 00:19:45,830 --> 00:19:48,630 of. But that's exactly it. I mean, I 516 00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:50,789 never felt like a child, like a true 517 00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:52,570 child. I lost my childhood 518 00:19:53,430 --> 00:19:55,644 before I even experienced it, it, and I 519 00:19:55,644 --> 00:19:58,224 lost my agency before it even developed. 520 00:19:58,765 --> 00:20:00,625 And I I don't think my story, 521 00:20:01,164 --> 00:20:01,664 unfortunately, 522 00:20:02,365 --> 00:20:03,424 is that unique 523 00:20:03,884 --> 00:20:05,984 to especially any any 524 00:20:06,285 --> 00:20:09,184 survivor of sexual abuse, but also, you know, 525 00:20:09,619 --> 00:20:10,119 children 526 00:20:10,500 --> 00:20:13,860 who grow up with violence, with hitting, with 527 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:16,920 being screamed at constantly. And that really, 528 00:20:17,299 --> 00:20:18,680 you know, these household 529 00:20:19,059 --> 00:20:20,119 where the children 530 00:20:21,505 --> 00:20:22,325 turn into 531 00:20:22,704 --> 00:20:23,924 objects of anger. 532 00:20:24,464 --> 00:20:26,625 And, you know, we lose our agency. We 533 00:20:26,625 --> 00:20:28,404 lose our ability to be happy. 534 00:20:29,505 --> 00:20:30,005 Absolutely. 535 00:20:30,784 --> 00:20:33,105 And I read somewhere a long time ago 536 00:20:33,105 --> 00:20:33,605 that 537 00:20:34,190 --> 00:20:35,569 physical not sexual 538 00:20:36,190 --> 00:20:38,910 the the punchy kind, the slappy kind, physical 539 00:20:38,910 --> 00:20:41,549 abuse or pinching or whatever it is, is 540 00:20:41,549 --> 00:20:42,049 as 541 00:20:42,670 --> 00:20:43,170 detrimental 542 00:20:43,630 --> 00:20:44,450 to a child 543 00:20:44,750 --> 00:20:47,710 psyche as the verbal abuse that it's as 544 00:20:47,710 --> 00:20:50,904 if you're being punched if you wanna, you 545 00:20:50,904 --> 00:20:53,384 know, apples for apples or whatnot. And I 546 00:20:53,384 --> 00:20:55,224 I find it very I have to be 547 00:20:55,224 --> 00:20:56,365 very careful because 548 00:20:56,984 --> 00:20:57,644 it is 549 00:20:58,345 --> 00:21:00,444 no two people experience 550 00:21:00,744 --> 00:21:02,444 trauma alike, and 551 00:21:03,390 --> 00:21:05,570 it does not matter, in my opinion, 552 00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:07,570 what kind of trauma you experienced, 553 00:21:08,269 --> 00:21:09,490 you experienced trauma. 554 00:21:09,869 --> 00:21:12,289 And that if we try to out trauma 555 00:21:12,349 --> 00:21:15,330 each other, it completely loses the point and 556 00:21:15,549 --> 00:21:17,570 and jeopardizes the healing of it. 557 00:21:17,924 --> 00:21:19,525 Correct. And I, you know, I hope my 558 00:21:19,525 --> 00:21:21,384 book is you know, I know it's difficult 559 00:21:21,525 --> 00:21:23,365 at points to read, but I hope that 560 00:21:23,365 --> 00:21:25,765 it would be a message for other people 561 00:21:25,765 --> 00:21:27,945 who've had other kinds of trauma because, 562 00:21:28,325 --> 00:21:30,245 you know, the the point is this, we 563 00:21:30,245 --> 00:21:32,485 can't out trauma each other and we can't 564 00:21:32,485 --> 00:21:32,985 necessarily 565 00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:35,440 experience it the same way. 566 00:21:35,980 --> 00:21:37,900 And, you know, in some ways, I was 567 00:21:37,900 --> 00:21:38,799 really fortunate 568 00:21:39,420 --> 00:21:41,259 because I grew up in a family that 569 00:21:41,259 --> 00:21:42,160 loved books, 570 00:21:43,019 --> 00:21:47,019 and books really saved me. And the the 571 00:21:47,019 --> 00:21:49,119 ability to read and write 572 00:21:49,744 --> 00:21:51,205 really was for me, 573 00:21:51,985 --> 00:21:52,485 important. 574 00:21:53,184 --> 00:21:55,845 It allowed me some academic success 575 00:21:56,305 --> 00:21:59,765 and the ability to be financially independent earlier 576 00:22:00,225 --> 00:22:02,960 than, than a lot of people. And, you 577 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:03,460 know, 578 00:22:04,319 --> 00:22:06,240 that's truthfully where I got a lot of 579 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,720 people ask, were you resilient? And I said, 580 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,500 well, that I think it's part of that. 581 00:22:10,639 --> 00:22:13,119 Although resilience can can have a double edged 582 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,335 sword too. So Sure. It makes you hyper 583 00:22:16,474 --> 00:22:18,714 independent, which makes it very hard to operate 584 00:22:18,714 --> 00:22:19,775 in the world sometimes. 585 00:22:20,634 --> 00:22:22,795 I do wanna the book thing really stood 586 00:22:22,795 --> 00:22:24,315 out to me. I'm a big reader. I 587 00:22:24,315 --> 00:22:26,394 was a big reader as a child. This 588 00:22:26,394 --> 00:22:26,894 is 589 00:22:27,980 --> 00:22:30,380 why it's so important not to ban books 590 00:22:30,380 --> 00:22:30,880 because 591 00:22:31,820 --> 00:22:33,519 they become a lifeline 592 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:34,880 to children. 593 00:22:35,420 --> 00:22:35,920 Correct. 594 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:38,140 And I don't think anyone you know, I 595 00:22:38,140 --> 00:22:40,380 read at a very young age kind of 596 00:22:40,380 --> 00:22:40,880 precociously. 597 00:22:41,695 --> 00:22:43,154 I would say very precociously. 598 00:22:43,535 --> 00:22:45,315 Part of it was, you know, my father, 599 00:22:45,775 --> 00:22:47,455 for all his bad, was a was a 600 00:22:47,455 --> 00:22:50,095 professor of English literature. And my mother was 601 00:22:50,095 --> 00:22:52,494 a person who I write. Books were like 602 00:22:52,494 --> 00:22:55,375 air to her. She she she loved to 603 00:22:55,375 --> 00:22:57,000 read. And, you know, 604 00:22:57,880 --> 00:22:58,619 I started 605 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:00,700 and I think it's really 606 00:23:01,079 --> 00:23:04,119 hard for adults to always say, well, this 607 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,619 book is appropriate or that book's not appropriate 608 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,079 for a child. You know, we have to 609 00:23:09,079 --> 00:23:11,605 let children read at the level that that 610 00:23:11,605 --> 00:23:13,765 they're at. I'm not saying that everybody should 611 00:23:13,765 --> 00:23:15,765 be reading the way that I did. Perhaps 612 00:23:15,765 --> 00:23:17,845 there should have been a little more monitoring, 613 00:23:17,845 --> 00:23:20,005 but that's a whole different issue. I don't 614 00:23:20,005 --> 00:23:21,765 know the answer to that. It's easy to 615 00:23:21,765 --> 00:23:24,484 judge. That's how children get to experience the 616 00:23:24,484 --> 00:23:25,944 the world that's not their own. 617 00:23:26,299 --> 00:23:27,119 Yeah. It's incredibly 618 00:23:28,460 --> 00:23:31,039 important for escape as well if they're in 619 00:23:31,099 --> 00:23:33,339 situations where they don't feel like they can 620 00:23:33,339 --> 00:23:34,319 escape. It creeps. 621 00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:37,179 My other option was it was either reading 622 00:23:37,179 --> 00:23:39,440 or self harm. So Yeah. 623 00:23:39,765 --> 00:23:42,005 And and I think, you know, books are 624 00:23:42,005 --> 00:23:44,244 better than sticking yourself with a pen or 625 00:23:44,244 --> 00:23:45,144 cutting yourself. 626 00:23:45,684 --> 00:23:47,224 I guess it's it's 627 00:23:48,005 --> 00:23:49,144 a healthier option. 628 00:23:50,085 --> 00:23:50,825 Do you 629 00:23:51,605 --> 00:23:54,345 ever get visited by your father in dreams? 630 00:23:54,869 --> 00:23:55,529 Not well, 631 00:23:57,190 --> 00:23:59,130 I'm trying to think of the last time. 632 00:23:59,750 --> 00:24:01,049 It's been a long time. 633 00:24:01,990 --> 00:24:04,329 Not not right after he died, yes. 634 00:24:05,109 --> 00:24:05,609 Not 635 00:24:05,910 --> 00:24:06,410 anymore. 636 00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:09,109 And I do get visited by my mother 637 00:24:09,109 --> 00:24:09,609 sometimes. 638 00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:10,410 And 639 00:24:10,765 --> 00:24:11,585 I've actually 640 00:24:12,044 --> 00:24:13,804 you know, this is gonna sound really rude, 641 00:24:13,804 --> 00:24:15,804 but I do a lot of yoga. And, 642 00:24:16,525 --> 00:24:18,384 you know, I've done some really intense 643 00:24:18,924 --> 00:24:19,424 meditative 644 00:24:19,884 --> 00:24:21,105 yoga experiences 645 00:24:21,804 --> 00:24:22,944 where I've seen 646 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:27,179 doubt my mother come to me, but not 647 00:24:27,179 --> 00:24:30,139 my father. He seems gone. I I 648 00:24:30,700 --> 00:24:33,119 trying to think if he showed up recently. 649 00:24:33,179 --> 00:24:35,179 Maybe I had one dream where we were 650 00:24:35,179 --> 00:24:36,720 all together, my biological 651 00:24:37,099 --> 00:24:37,599 family, 652 00:24:38,015 --> 00:24:39,775 and there was like a flood and something 653 00:24:39,775 --> 00:24:42,815 was going on. How did your sister receive 654 00:24:42,815 --> 00:24:43,475 the book? 655 00:24:44,414 --> 00:24:47,215 Oh, my sister is my first true love. 656 00:24:47,215 --> 00:24:49,315 I hope that comes across in the book. 657 00:24:49,615 --> 00:24:51,789 I went nervous the whole time reading because 658 00:24:51,789 --> 00:24:54,369 I thought, oh god, you know, please, please. 659 00:24:54,509 --> 00:24:56,589 It's bad enough that you're dealing with what 660 00:24:56,589 --> 00:24:59,069 you're dealing with. I'm she didn't have an 661 00:24:59,069 --> 00:25:01,869 easy time either. I mean, she she also 662 00:25:01,869 --> 00:25:04,085 was hit a lot by my father. She 663 00:25:04,085 --> 00:25:06,325 was she read it early. I had her 664 00:25:06,325 --> 00:25:08,265 read it actually at first draft 665 00:25:08,644 --> 00:25:10,964 because I said I'm writing this. I won't 666 00:25:10,964 --> 00:25:12,904 write it if you're not okay with it. 667 00:25:13,125 --> 00:25:14,964 And she was okay, and she's read it 668 00:25:14,964 --> 00:25:17,309 all the way through. I I, you know, 669 00:25:17,309 --> 00:25:19,470 dedicate the book to her. I had her 670 00:25:19,470 --> 00:25:20,990 read it as I was writing it for 671 00:25:20,990 --> 00:25:23,149 two reasons. One is I wanted to make 672 00:25:23,149 --> 00:25:25,710 sure before I published it that that it 673 00:25:25,710 --> 00:25:27,869 was before it got published and or started 674 00:25:27,869 --> 00:25:29,250 sending it out for publication 675 00:25:29,869 --> 00:25:32,144 that she would would sign off on it 676 00:25:32,144 --> 00:25:34,244 because I didn't want to go any further. 677 00:25:34,784 --> 00:25:35,605 And I also 678 00:25:35,984 --> 00:25:38,944 wanted to have her read it for I 679 00:25:38,944 --> 00:25:40,484 mean, it's all a historical 680 00:25:40,944 --> 00:25:41,444 accuracy. 681 00:25:42,224 --> 00:25:44,704 Obviously, our memories are not identical on the 682 00:25:44,704 --> 00:25:47,259 way everything happened, but at least, you know, 683 00:25:47,259 --> 00:25:49,500 we moved a lot as children and just 684 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:51,900 to to kind of get her take on 685 00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:53,920 on these on particular scenes. 686 00:25:54,460 --> 00:25:56,240 But she's been really supportive, 687 00:25:56,539 --> 00:25:57,839 and she's really excited. 688 00:25:58,220 --> 00:26:00,794 She's excited for me because she also knows 689 00:26:00,794 --> 00:26:02,554 that I've been writing a long time, and 690 00:26:02,554 --> 00:26:04,794 she's excited that I have a book, and 691 00:26:04,794 --> 00:26:07,534 she's excited about this book. She's a therapist 692 00:26:07,914 --> 00:26:08,894 by by training. 693 00:26:09,674 --> 00:26:12,634 She's just recently retired, but she she was 694 00:26:12,634 --> 00:26:13,294 a LCSW. 695 00:26:14,075 --> 00:26:16,789 So I think she's open to the and 696 00:26:17,009 --> 00:26:18,789 open to the book being published. 697 00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:21,330 The therapists in the book, I wanted to 698 00:26:21,330 --> 00:26:23,190 reach through the pages and just 699 00:26:23,570 --> 00:26:26,690 absolutely throttle. Oh, the two. They were not 700 00:26:26,690 --> 00:26:28,869 good. I mean, the first one, 701 00:26:30,164 --> 00:26:32,105 you know, the second one, I really 702 00:26:32,884 --> 00:26:35,365 I don't even give the excuse of time 703 00:26:35,365 --> 00:26:38,105 to because it was already 1981 704 00:26:38,644 --> 00:26:40,345 and, you know, the he 705 00:26:40,725 --> 00:26:42,985 it was out there. The first one, 706 00:26:43,789 --> 00:26:45,710 you know, was in the sixties. Things were 707 00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:49,150 different, and there wasn't required reporting. I often 708 00:26:49,150 --> 00:26:51,390 wonder my sister thinks that even though I 709 00:26:51,390 --> 00:26:53,950 never quite told him a 100% what was 710 00:26:53,950 --> 00:26:55,630 going on, and you'll read the book and 711 00:26:55,630 --> 00:26:57,009 find out more about this, 712 00:26:57,375 --> 00:26:59,535 But, my sister thinks that that would have 713 00:26:59,535 --> 00:27:01,954 been required reporting at this point. 714 00:27:02,335 --> 00:27:04,174 There was really no one to rescue me, 715 00:27:04,174 --> 00:27:07,134 and the therapist that did finally help me 716 00:27:07,134 --> 00:27:09,775 was a woman. And, actually, she was an 717 00:27:09,775 --> 00:27:10,275 LCSW, 718 00:27:10,894 --> 00:27:11,795 so go figure. 719 00:27:12,269 --> 00:27:13,330 Yeah. Yeah. 720 00:27:14,029 --> 00:27:15,650 Do you have children? 721 00:27:16,190 --> 00:27:17,009 I do not. 722 00:27:17,869 --> 00:27:20,349 I do not. I did not want to 723 00:27:20,349 --> 00:27:22,349 have children. And I love children, by the 724 00:27:22,349 --> 00:27:24,430 way. I really do. You know, I it 725 00:27:24,430 --> 00:27:26,509 took me a really long time to find 726 00:27:26,509 --> 00:27:27,009 stability. 727 00:27:28,115 --> 00:27:29,795 You know, I write about some of it 728 00:27:29,795 --> 00:27:31,414 in the book. And even after 729 00:27:31,795 --> 00:27:34,195 the book ends, the period after, it took 730 00:27:34,195 --> 00:27:36,215 me a little bit longer to find 731 00:27:37,315 --> 00:27:40,855 someone that I could live with. And intimacy 732 00:27:41,154 --> 00:27:43,119 took me a long time to to find, 733 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,460 but I, I have a husband now for, 734 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,339 that I've been married to for, 735 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,640 it'll be twenty four years next month. And 736 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,880 we've been together for over twenty five. But 737 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,660 by that time I was already 738 00:27:55,355 --> 00:27:57,434 over. I was 42 when I met him 739 00:27:57,434 --> 00:27:59,674 and 43 when we got married. You know, 740 00:27:59,674 --> 00:28:01,914 we tried, but I didn't wanna have kids 741 00:28:01,914 --> 00:28:04,474 until I was stable and until I found 742 00:28:04,474 --> 00:28:07,035 somebody who was stable enough to have kids 743 00:28:07,035 --> 00:28:09,690 with. And I just didn't my didn't find 744 00:28:09,690 --> 00:28:10,429 that before. 745 00:28:11,130 --> 00:28:13,130 You know, it was my opportunity to break 746 00:28:13,130 --> 00:28:13,789 the cycle. 747 00:28:14,409 --> 00:28:16,970 I completely understand that. But but I have 748 00:28:16,970 --> 00:28:19,630 10 I have 10 nieces and nephews, and 749 00:28:19,769 --> 00:28:20,429 I have 750 00:28:20,809 --> 00:28:22,669 three four greats now. 751 00:28:23,210 --> 00:28:24,029 Two, three. 752 00:28:24,445 --> 00:28:26,065 Your sister had 10 kids. 753 00:28:26,684 --> 00:28:28,605 They're not my sister. It's on my husband's 754 00:28:28,605 --> 00:28:30,765 side. Okay. I was like, wow. That's a 755 00:28:30,765 --> 00:28:31,265 lot. 756 00:28:31,724 --> 00:28:35,404 No. No judgment. Wow. I can't imagine talking 757 00:28:35,404 --> 00:28:37,265 to you. One kid. And 758 00:28:37,799 --> 00:28:40,680 my husband's got my husband's got a from 759 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,340 a big family, but they they count. Absolutely. 760 00:28:43,559 --> 00:28:45,480 No. For sure. One of the things and 761 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,559 again, no spoilers. But one of the things 762 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:48,299 that happens 763 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,640 with any kind of abuse with children is 764 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:52,140 that 765 00:28:52,565 --> 00:28:53,944 as they grow up, 766 00:28:55,525 --> 00:28:56,585 they tend to, 767 00:28:56,964 --> 00:28:58,265 and this is a generalization, 768 00:28:58,644 --> 00:29:01,125 but in my experience, this is what I've 769 00:29:01,125 --> 00:29:02,904 seen. They tend to 770 00:29:03,285 --> 00:29:04,345 get into situations 771 00:29:04,804 --> 00:29:06,184 where abuse continues 772 00:29:06,700 --> 00:29:09,660 in different forms by people outside the family 773 00:29:09,660 --> 00:29:11,279 because it has set up 774 00:29:11,900 --> 00:29:14,380 a feeling about oneself. And as you mentioned, 775 00:29:14,380 --> 00:29:16,380 sort of that out of body experience or 776 00:29:16,380 --> 00:29:18,059 being in your head and not your body. 777 00:29:18,059 --> 00:29:19,920 And can you talk a little bit, especially 778 00:29:19,980 --> 00:29:22,744 for the listeners who maybe are experiencing that 779 00:29:23,285 --> 00:29:24,025 now, the 780 00:29:24,484 --> 00:29:25,625 journey of 781 00:29:27,125 --> 00:29:28,664 of getting your boundaries 782 00:29:29,205 --> 00:29:29,705 back 783 00:29:30,164 --> 00:29:31,924 and what that felt like for you and 784 00:29:31,924 --> 00:29:34,025 how you reclaimed that part of yourself? 785 00:29:34,429 --> 00:29:36,349 Well, it took a while. I mean, I 786 00:29:36,429 --> 00:29:38,289 when I was growing up as a teenager, 787 00:29:38,509 --> 00:29:40,429 I really I write that I didn't know 788 00:29:40,429 --> 00:29:41,809 the the difference between 789 00:29:42,429 --> 00:29:42,929 safety 790 00:29:43,390 --> 00:29:44,609 and and danger. 791 00:29:45,230 --> 00:29:46,450 And, you know, 792 00:29:46,750 --> 00:29:47,250 I 793 00:29:48,029 --> 00:29:49,250 interestingly enough, 794 00:29:49,755 --> 00:29:50,494 I actually 795 00:29:51,434 --> 00:29:54,555 couldn't be intimate. And and, you know, I 796 00:29:54,555 --> 00:29:57,035 I got into some really dangerous positions as 797 00:29:57,035 --> 00:29:59,914 a teenager. As an older as I became 798 00:29:59,914 --> 00:30:00,654 an adult, 799 00:30:01,195 --> 00:30:02,974 a lot of the men that I picked 800 00:30:03,035 --> 00:30:04,255 weren't really abusive. 801 00:30:04,634 --> 00:30:06,450 I was cause I just couldn't I didn't 802 00:30:06,450 --> 00:30:07,589 stay very long. 803 00:30:07,890 --> 00:30:10,069 I just kind of picked them for 804 00:30:10,369 --> 00:30:11,349 to pick them. 805 00:30:11,809 --> 00:30:13,809 And, I mean, I think the the last 806 00:30:13,809 --> 00:30:16,390 relationship in the book, I don't know that 807 00:30:16,450 --> 00:30:19,105 he it was abusive. It it was 808 00:30:19,565 --> 00:30:21,964 maybe right on the border. He he could 809 00:30:22,044 --> 00:30:24,464 you know, to be fair to him, 810 00:30:24,924 --> 00:30:27,404 I was holding secrets and not that easy 811 00:30:27,404 --> 00:30:29,585 to live with at that point. But 812 00:30:29,899 --> 00:30:32,799 I never really got into the hitting relationships. 813 00:30:33,179 --> 00:30:35,899 I stayed away from, I was afraid of 814 00:30:35,899 --> 00:30:36,399 power. 815 00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:39,419 I got, I was really afraid of men 816 00:30:39,419 --> 00:30:42,700 having power over me, but I think that 817 00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:44,714 it was more of a journey of of 818 00:30:44,714 --> 00:30:47,755 going to therapy and starting to really look 819 00:30:47,755 --> 00:30:49,835 at what I was looking for in a 820 00:30:49,835 --> 00:30:50,335 partner. 821 00:30:51,035 --> 00:30:53,375 You know, what would a partner 822 00:30:53,674 --> 00:30:54,894 that I would like 823 00:30:55,434 --> 00:30:56,815 look like? And sometimes 824 00:30:57,194 --> 00:30:59,900 to be fair, I looked at the externalities 825 00:31:00,119 --> 00:31:01,180 a little too heavily, 826 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,160 which isn't to say that my husband's not 827 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:03,660 a 828 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,840 good looking man. But I really went with, 829 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,320 you know, I I really wrote that I 830 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,119 was kinda just looking for somebody to sleep 831 00:31:12,119 --> 00:31:14,619 next to to keep away the boogeyman. And 832 00:31:14,805 --> 00:31:16,325 so it took a really long I had 833 00:31:16,325 --> 00:31:16,985 to mature. 834 00:31:17,845 --> 00:31:18,884 I I I don't think I became a 835 00:31:18,884 --> 00:31:20,985 grown woman until I was 43. 836 00:31:21,285 --> 00:31:24,005 And I had to mature into being a 837 00:31:24,005 --> 00:31:25,384 woman and work 838 00:31:25,845 --> 00:31:28,025 in therapy, kind of understand, 839 00:31:28,725 --> 00:31:30,779 you know, what are the qualities that 840 00:31:31,340 --> 00:31:33,599 I think I value in myself? 841 00:31:34,380 --> 00:31:36,539 And those are the qualities I would value 842 00:31:36,539 --> 00:31:38,619 in a partner. And then how could I 843 00:31:38,619 --> 00:31:41,200 trust that partner to be safe, 844 00:31:41,660 --> 00:31:44,140 which is, you know, I really started looking 845 00:31:44,140 --> 00:31:45,440 at at my partner's 846 00:31:45,825 --> 00:31:46,565 family relationships 847 00:31:47,024 --> 00:31:47,524 that 848 00:31:47,825 --> 00:31:50,065 not not necessarily at what they did for 849 00:31:50,065 --> 00:31:52,164 a living, but who they were as people. 850 00:31:52,784 --> 00:31:54,944 Mhmm. So it was a process, though. I 851 00:31:54,944 --> 00:31:56,944 can't really point to any one moment in 852 00:31:56,944 --> 00:31:58,865 time. I I have a moment in the 853 00:31:58,865 --> 00:32:01,490 book where I I talk about having a 854 00:32:01,490 --> 00:32:01,990 conversation 855 00:32:02,610 --> 00:32:04,930 relationship with somebody. I won't spoil that because 856 00:32:04,930 --> 00:32:06,150 it's a precious moment. 857 00:32:06,450 --> 00:32:08,690 Absolutely. No. It's and again, it's it's tricky 858 00:32:08,690 --> 00:32:11,029 sometimes in these interviews because I wanna 859 00:32:11,330 --> 00:32:13,250 dive in, but I also want people to 860 00:32:13,250 --> 00:32:14,070 read the book. 861 00:32:14,434 --> 00:32:16,194 I know some of them people eat, people 862 00:32:16,194 --> 00:32:18,115 do that. They, I feel like sometimes I'm 863 00:32:18,115 --> 00:32:19,634 like, I'm giving away the whole book, so 864 00:32:19,634 --> 00:32:21,795 why would they buy it? But, you know, 865 00:32:21,795 --> 00:32:24,194 I say buying the book and reading it 866 00:32:24,194 --> 00:32:26,355 is a whole different experience than hearing about 867 00:32:26,355 --> 00:32:27,174 it in a podcast. 868 00:32:28,019 --> 00:32:28,759 Yeah. Also, 869 00:32:29,940 --> 00:32:32,580 the the thing about writing about this particular 870 00:32:32,580 --> 00:32:35,460 topic is you are now standing on a 871 00:32:35,460 --> 00:32:36,759 roof and shouting 872 00:32:37,299 --> 00:32:40,259 about what happened. And I think the more 873 00:32:40,259 --> 00:32:41,080 that happens, 874 00:32:41,714 --> 00:32:44,035 the more people in their own lives will 875 00:32:44,035 --> 00:32:46,454 feel like it's okay for them to also 876 00:32:46,835 --> 00:32:48,914 stand up to their abusers or speak about 877 00:32:48,914 --> 00:32:52,835 their abuse and get that poison out instead 878 00:32:52,835 --> 00:32:55,289 of carrying the burden of it. And that's 879 00:32:55,289 --> 00:32:57,049 my primary you know, one of my primary 880 00:32:57,049 --> 00:32:59,710 messages in the book because that that's why, 881 00:33:00,250 --> 00:33:02,650 actually, my editor and publisher helped me find 882 00:33:02,650 --> 00:33:04,410 the title. I struggled with titles for a 883 00:33:04,410 --> 00:33:06,650 long time. But when they when we found 884 00:33:06,650 --> 00:33:08,350 it, I was like, yes. Because 885 00:33:08,835 --> 00:33:11,474 what I really believed was that if and 886 00:33:11,474 --> 00:33:13,315 this is what my mother believed. If you 887 00:33:13,315 --> 00:33:15,714 created a pretty enough picture, if you were 888 00:33:15,714 --> 00:33:19,414 smart enough or, you know, externally attractive enough 889 00:33:19,474 --> 00:33:20,214 or just 890 00:33:20,769 --> 00:33:21,670 pretended something 891 00:33:22,049 --> 00:33:23,190 what didn't happen, 892 00:33:23,569 --> 00:33:25,490 you could make that to be that could 893 00:33:25,490 --> 00:33:26,230 be so. 894 00:33:26,529 --> 00:33:29,089 And what I learned is you can't hold 895 00:33:29,089 --> 00:33:32,309 these these things secret. You can't bury them. 896 00:33:32,369 --> 00:33:35,349 I mean, some people have are able to, 897 00:33:35,605 --> 00:33:38,164 you know, their brains allow them to, to, 898 00:33:38,164 --> 00:33:40,565 to bury their memories and their subconscious. I 899 00:33:40,565 --> 00:33:41,784 kind of wish mine had, 900 00:33:42,085 --> 00:33:44,005 you know, they come out anyway. I mean, 901 00:33:44,005 --> 00:33:46,565 you know, and now there's all these, these 902 00:33:46,565 --> 00:33:49,250 newer things that are happening, books being written 903 00:33:49,250 --> 00:33:51,509 and and stories about people using MDMA 904 00:33:52,369 --> 00:33:53,669 and finding their memories. 905 00:33:53,970 --> 00:33:54,470 I 906 00:33:54,929 --> 00:33:58,049 didn't ever lose mine, but I really tried 907 00:33:58,049 --> 00:34:00,450 to keep them buried. For a long time, 908 00:34:00,450 --> 00:34:03,115 I tried, trust me, But I'm glad I 909 00:34:03,115 --> 00:34:05,275 didn't because, you know, it made me the 910 00:34:05,275 --> 00:34:06,654 person that I am today. 911 00:34:07,194 --> 00:34:09,054 Yeah. I mean, honestly, that 912 00:34:09,514 --> 00:34:12,875 could have developed into DID or any any 913 00:34:12,875 --> 00:34:15,914 number of things. Yeah. And truthfully, the secrets 914 00:34:15,914 --> 00:34:17,375 were killing me. I I 915 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:20,800 am very lucky that I didn't, you know, 916 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:21,699 kill myself. 917 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,079 You know, there were moments where I was 918 00:34:24,079 --> 00:34:27,300 very close without you know, to to suicide. 919 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,239 And and I'm I I'm grateful every day 920 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,425 that, you know, I was able to get 921 00:34:32,425 --> 00:34:35,085 the help that I can, could. And 922 00:34:35,625 --> 00:34:37,625 I hope, which is part of the reason 923 00:34:37,625 --> 00:34:40,344 that I'm speaking and giving whatever money I 924 00:34:40,344 --> 00:34:43,224 can to to these resources is, you know, 925 00:34:43,224 --> 00:34:46,025 today, so many of these nonprofits are losing 926 00:34:46,025 --> 00:34:47,085 federal funding, 927 00:34:47,409 --> 00:34:48,929 but there are still 928 00:34:49,329 --> 00:34:51,590 it still exists that there are 929 00:34:52,050 --> 00:34:52,550 organizations 930 00:34:52,849 --> 00:34:53,829 that will help 931 00:34:54,210 --> 00:34:57,030 people who even people who can't afford to 932 00:34:57,489 --> 00:34:58,869 get therapy themselves. 933 00:34:59,355 --> 00:35:01,034 You know, the rape treatment center here in 934 00:35:01,034 --> 00:35:03,755 LA, we're very fortunate, but other places we 935 00:35:03,755 --> 00:35:04,815 are as well. 936 00:35:05,195 --> 00:35:07,295 And the rape treatment center gives 937 00:35:07,994 --> 00:35:08,494 adults 938 00:35:09,114 --> 00:35:11,594 one year through the rape treatment center of 939 00:35:11,594 --> 00:35:14,849 therapy, and Stewart House allows for the children 940 00:35:14,849 --> 00:35:16,849 to have a year as well as the 941 00:35:16,849 --> 00:35:19,029 non perpetrating parent. Wow. 942 00:35:20,289 --> 00:35:22,769 I that's really generous, but there are other 943 00:35:22,769 --> 00:35:23,269 organizations 944 00:35:23,730 --> 00:35:24,549 that provide 945 00:35:24,849 --> 00:35:26,789 services as well and hopefully 946 00:35:27,089 --> 00:35:29,349 in more parts of the country. You know? 947 00:35:29,864 --> 00:35:31,885 There's so much to the non perpetrating 948 00:35:32,184 --> 00:35:33,565 parent too that 949 00:35:33,945 --> 00:35:36,905 the the looking the other way ness of 950 00:35:36,905 --> 00:35:39,244 it all for so many families, 951 00:35:39,625 --> 00:35:42,045 for myself too, like, showing up to school, 952 00:35:43,659 --> 00:35:46,940 tear faced, you know, bloated, crying face with 953 00:35:46,940 --> 00:35:47,519 a note, 954 00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:49,440 and nobody's saying a thing. 955 00:35:49,980 --> 00:35:52,860 You know? Nobody's saying a word, and it's 956 00:35:52,860 --> 00:35:54,780 just the whole the whole of it, the 957 00:35:54,780 --> 00:35:57,039 silence culture around it all 958 00:35:57,340 --> 00:35:58,555 is devastating. 959 00:35:59,175 --> 00:36:00,695 It's devastate and I think it's you know, 960 00:36:00,695 --> 00:36:02,375 you're you're much younger than I am, and 961 00:36:02,375 --> 00:36:04,795 I you know, it still happens. And, 962 00:36:05,095 --> 00:36:07,175 you know, that's the issue. When I'm at 963 00:36:07,175 --> 00:36:09,335 Stuart House and with the play lady, I 964 00:36:09,335 --> 00:36:11,460 see the moms who bring their children in 965 00:36:11,460 --> 00:36:13,699 and sometimes it's a dad, but sometimes it's 966 00:36:13,699 --> 00:36:16,500 a step father, sometimes it's an who knows? 967 00:36:16,500 --> 00:36:17,480 I don't find out 968 00:36:17,780 --> 00:36:19,539 much about the cases for a lot of 969 00:36:19,539 --> 00:36:21,000 different reasons, privacy, 970 00:36:21,619 --> 00:36:24,425 and also because, you know, for court, if 971 00:36:24,425 --> 00:36:26,505 they do go to court, so they don't 972 00:36:26,505 --> 00:36:27,804 give us that information. 973 00:36:28,265 --> 00:36:29,965 Our job is simply to play 974 00:36:30,265 --> 00:36:32,344 and, which is a great job to have, 975 00:36:32,344 --> 00:36:34,664 like I said. But when I watch these 976 00:36:34,664 --> 00:36:36,664 moms, I go, God, you're my hero. Those 977 00:36:36,664 --> 00:36:37,485 are my heroes. 978 00:36:37,980 --> 00:36:38,960 Is the women 979 00:36:39,340 --> 00:36:41,739 or men, if it's the other way, the 980 00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:43,579 or and sometimes it's a mother and a 981 00:36:43,579 --> 00:36:44,079 father 982 00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:46,960 bringing the child in because it's someone else. 983 00:36:47,019 --> 00:36:49,340 The parents who bring their child to to 984 00:36:49,340 --> 00:36:52,385 therapy and are willing to acknowledge this This 985 00:36:52,385 --> 00:36:54,005 is happening by someone 986 00:36:54,625 --> 00:36:57,364 to their child. Those are my heroes because 987 00:36:57,425 --> 00:36:58,085 I know 988 00:36:58,464 --> 00:37:00,864 that, you know, there's there's gotta be some 989 00:37:00,864 --> 00:37:03,264 shame connected with it, and they're able to 990 00:37:03,264 --> 00:37:06,484 overcome that shame for their child's well-being. 991 00:37:07,130 --> 00:37:10,170 It's amazing. I, you know, but I also 992 00:37:10,170 --> 00:37:13,130 want, you know, young women who, you know, 993 00:37:13,130 --> 00:37:14,809 there's so much of this, this is, you 994 00:37:14,809 --> 00:37:16,110 know, sexual abuse 995 00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:17,230 pervasive, 996 00:37:17,849 --> 00:37:19,994 you know, Rain says one in nine boys, 997 00:37:20,075 --> 00:37:21,914 one in nine girls and one in twenty 998 00:37:21,914 --> 00:37:24,474 boys are sexually abused before the age of 999 00:37:24,474 --> 00:37:26,875 18. And we won't even get into the 1000 00:37:26,875 --> 00:37:29,195 women after the age of 18. That's a 1001 00:37:29,195 --> 00:37:31,535 whole different story. And that's just what's reported. 1002 00:37:31,755 --> 00:37:33,855 Right. And that's what's reported. So 1003 00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:37,130 regardless of whether it's childhood or not childhood 1004 00:37:37,269 --> 00:37:37,769 or 1005 00:37:38,070 --> 00:37:39,829 you know, I think the the point of 1006 00:37:39,829 --> 00:37:42,409 my book is that keeping these secrets 1007 00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:45,030 to yourself isn't gonna help you. You need 1008 00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:47,484 to get some help. And and as a 1009 00:37:47,484 --> 00:37:50,065 society, we should be aware that this happens. 1010 00:37:50,925 --> 00:37:53,885 Yeah. What's next for you? I I have 1011 00:37:53,885 --> 00:37:56,284 an old novel that is not about this, 1012 00:37:56,684 --> 00:37:59,405 that I pulled out. And I'm that I'm 1013 00:37:59,405 --> 00:38:00,625 I'm kind of exploring 1014 00:38:01,070 --> 00:38:02,909 whether I want I took a little class 1015 00:38:02,909 --> 00:38:04,769 on on character with, 1016 00:38:06,030 --> 00:38:08,110 a a writer I know, Josh Moore, who 1017 00:38:08,190 --> 00:38:10,989 who's like a really, really good character person 1018 00:38:10,989 --> 00:38:11,650 and and, 1019 00:38:12,190 --> 00:38:14,605 recently just have something to take my mind 1020 00:38:14,605 --> 00:38:15,424 off of this. 1021 00:38:15,724 --> 00:38:17,744 And I'm playing with that potentially. 1022 00:38:18,605 --> 00:38:19,904 I I'm also 1023 00:38:20,684 --> 00:38:23,184 looking at, you know, writing some more essays. 1024 00:38:24,125 --> 00:38:26,684 I have found right now that that this 1025 00:38:26,684 --> 00:38:28,304 process of this book 1026 00:38:28,650 --> 00:38:29,150 is 1027 00:38:29,530 --> 00:38:30,109 so consuming 1028 00:38:30,730 --> 00:38:32,809 that there's not too much time for other 1029 00:38:32,809 --> 00:38:34,829 things. And then on a personal 1030 00:38:35,289 --> 00:38:35,789 advocacy, 1031 00:38:36,650 --> 00:38:39,469 I want to continue that as a trajectory. 1032 00:38:40,329 --> 00:38:42,329 Writing, I can write something else. But I 1033 00:38:42,329 --> 00:38:44,184 do want to continue that 1034 00:38:44,724 --> 00:38:46,724 as, you know, I'm lucky. I call it, 1035 00:38:46,724 --> 00:38:49,625 I'm of retirement age, but not really psychologically 1036 00:38:49,844 --> 00:38:52,244 ready for retirement. But I'm ready to do 1037 00:38:52,244 --> 00:38:54,965 something new. And that's what I've chosen. So 1038 00:38:54,965 --> 00:38:56,965 I want to continue to be out in 1039 00:38:56,965 --> 00:38:59,179 the world talking about this issue. 1040 00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:00,619 That's what's next. 1041 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:02,619 I'm curious 1042 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:03,900 how 1043 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,840 your relationship, if you have one, if you 1044 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,260 are an atheist, if you believe in God, 1045 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,139 how how that has changed over your lifetime. 1046 00:39:12,565 --> 00:39:15,045 I'm kind of a person who believes in 1047 00:39:15,045 --> 00:39:16,905 a higher power, the universe. 1048 00:39:17,525 --> 00:39:19,844 I don't know that I and I can't 1049 00:39:19,925 --> 00:39:21,925 the universe can be called God. I I 1050 00:39:21,925 --> 00:39:24,184 don't have anything, you know, with that term. 1051 00:39:24,405 --> 00:39:26,744 I'm not a part of an organized religion, 1052 00:39:27,230 --> 00:39:28,750 but one of the things that happened, I 1053 00:39:28,750 --> 00:39:30,989 went through a period probably around college where 1054 00:39:30,989 --> 00:39:32,829 I was just didn't believe in God at 1055 00:39:32,829 --> 00:39:33,650 all, atheist. 1056 00:39:34,109 --> 00:39:37,309 But now I believe in something bigger than 1057 00:39:37,309 --> 00:39:40,449 me. I actually do. I meditate every day 1058 00:39:40,510 --> 00:39:43,144 and I pray every day. And I also 1059 00:39:43,844 --> 00:39:46,505 kind of my prayers are more about gratitude 1060 00:39:47,045 --> 00:39:49,304 than about asking for something. 1061 00:39:49,684 --> 00:39:52,005 So I do have a relationship with something 1062 00:39:52,005 --> 00:39:53,684 bigger. I just don't I don't know what 1063 00:39:53,684 --> 00:39:55,445 that looks like, and I'm not a part 1064 00:39:55,445 --> 00:39:57,065 of any organized religion, 1065 00:39:57,469 --> 00:39:59,869 But I'm not opposed to other people's organized 1066 00:39:59,869 --> 00:40:00,369 religions. 1067 00:40:00,909 --> 00:40:02,750 Yeah. That makes sense. Tell people how they 1068 00:40:02,750 --> 00:40:04,529 might find you. I have a website 1069 00:40:04,829 --> 00:40:08,989 right now. It's andrealeebeauthor.com. 1070 00:40:08,989 --> 00:40:10,849 I think we're working on maybe perhaps 1071 00:40:11,235 --> 00:40:13,255 changing it, but it'll have a hyperlink. 1072 00:40:13,635 --> 00:40:16,835 So it's andrealeebauthor.com, 1073 00:40:16,835 --> 00:40:19,155 and then I have an Instagram, which is 1074 00:40:19,155 --> 00:40:19,655 andrea 1075 00:40:19,954 --> 00:40:20,454 lisa 1076 00:40:21,075 --> 00:40:22,934 leeb. So that's my Instagram, 1077 00:40:23,390 --> 00:40:25,710 and you can follow me. And the book 1078 00:40:25,710 --> 00:40:27,949 can be purchased. I'm gonna just give a 1079 00:40:27,949 --> 00:40:28,449 pitch. 1080 00:40:28,750 --> 00:40:31,550 It's my launch date my publication date is 1081 00:40:31,550 --> 00:40:32,530 October 14, 1082 00:40:32,989 --> 00:40:34,849 but it is available for preorder 1083 00:40:35,150 --> 00:40:37,390 now. You can get it on the Simon 1084 00:40:37,390 --> 00:40:38,554 and Schuster website 1085 00:40:38,855 --> 00:40:39,355 on, 1086 00:40:40,135 --> 00:40:41,655 or look on the Simon and Schuster and 1087 00:40:41,655 --> 00:40:44,554 there's hyperlinks there's hyperlinks. My author website. 1088 00:40:45,175 --> 00:40:45,675 Amazon, 1089 00:40:46,295 --> 00:40:46,954 of course. 1090 00:40:47,255 --> 00:40:47,755 Bookshop, 1091 00:40:48,855 --> 00:40:49,514 of course. 1092 00:40:50,219 --> 00:40:52,940 Barnes and Noble. So, basically, anywhere where they 1093 00:40:52,940 --> 00:40:54,800 sell books, it's available for preorder, 1094 00:40:55,179 --> 00:40:57,840 and the publication date is October 14. 1095 00:40:58,380 --> 00:41:00,159 And as I said, my royalties, 1096 00:41:00,619 --> 00:41:01,119 I 1097 00:41:01,579 --> 00:41:04,464 am you know, I because I have the 1098 00:41:04,464 --> 00:41:06,885 opportunity to, I'm able to donate them 1099 00:41:07,184 --> 00:41:09,525 to RAIN and other rape treatment organizations. 1100 00:41:09,905 --> 00:41:10,964 So Fantastic. 1101 00:41:11,425 --> 00:41:13,425 And as a person that as I said, 1102 00:41:13,425 --> 00:41:14,724 I read constantly. 1103 00:41:15,025 --> 00:41:15,344 I've 1104 00:41:16,065 --> 00:41:18,050 this book is very well 1105 00:41:18,349 --> 00:41:21,070 written. It's easy to read. It's an important 1106 00:41:21,070 --> 00:41:24,130 read. You know, people have an idea that 1107 00:41:24,590 --> 00:41:28,110 this happens only in certain families or in 1108 00:41:28,110 --> 00:41:28,190 in 1109 00:41:28,989 --> 00:41:30,289 and this is not 1110 00:41:30,590 --> 00:41:33,565 a you know, these issues, these child abuse 1111 00:41:33,565 --> 00:41:35,025 issues are not related 1112 00:41:35,965 --> 00:41:36,465 to 1113 00:41:36,925 --> 00:41:37,425 socioeconomics, 1114 00:41:38,204 --> 00:41:40,224 to race, to religion. 1115 00:41:40,844 --> 00:41:43,184 You know, they happen in all families. 1116 00:41:44,045 --> 00:41:47,289 So I also wanted, you know, no matter 1117 00:41:47,289 --> 00:41:49,210 how, and my family had a pretty good, 1118 00:41:49,210 --> 00:41:51,309 pretty picture. You know? It was 1119 00:41:51,609 --> 00:41:53,630 a, father who was a professor, 1120 00:41:54,010 --> 00:41:56,730 a pretty mother, and two little girls, cute 1121 00:41:56,730 --> 00:41:59,609 little girls. How how good how how lovely 1122 00:41:59,609 --> 00:42:00,269 is that? 1123 00:42:01,049 --> 00:42:01,549 Yeah. 1124 00:42:02,275 --> 00:42:03,335 Yeah. Absolutely. 1125 00:42:03,715 --> 00:42:05,554 I wish you great success, and I think 1126 00:42:05,554 --> 00:42:06,295 it's incredible 1127 00:42:06,594 --> 00:42:08,855 what you do and what you have survived. 1128 00:42:09,074 --> 00:42:10,855 And I think that it's 1129 00:42:11,394 --> 00:42:12,934 so important that 1130 00:42:13,394 --> 00:42:16,195 beacons exist in the world because the ocean 1131 00:42:16,195 --> 00:42:17,494 is fucking big. 1132 00:42:18,030 --> 00:42:20,190 Yeah. When we see a beacon of light 1133 00:42:20,190 --> 00:42:22,190 that we can swim toward, it makes all 1134 00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:22,849 the difference. 1135 00:42:23,150 --> 00:42:25,070 I I think that's really true. Right? That's 1136 00:42:25,070 --> 00:42:26,510 a good way to say it. I love 1137 00:42:26,510 --> 00:42:27,809 that. I might steal it. 1138 00:42:29,309 --> 00:42:31,150 Thank you so much for taking the time 1139 00:42:31,150 --> 00:42:32,855 to be on the show. Oh my god. 1140 00:42:32,855 --> 00:42:34,375 Thank you. And thank you for saying the 1141 00:42:34,375 --> 00:42:36,054 book was well written. That means the world 1142 00:42:36,054 --> 00:42:38,375 to me. I mean, also because, you know, 1143 00:42:38,375 --> 00:42:39,114 as a writer, 1144 00:42:39,414 --> 00:42:41,574 you want people to like your writing. So 1145 00:42:41,894 --> 00:42:44,855 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. It's it's it's well written. 1146 00:42:44,855 --> 00:42:47,174 Absolutely. It's easy to read. And I don't 1147 00:42:47,174 --> 00:42:47,699 mean that 1148 00:42:48,260 --> 00:42:50,599 that it's pedantic. It's not that. It's 1149 00:42:51,139 --> 00:42:53,239 I I yeah. I understand. But 1150 00:42:53,780 --> 00:42:56,440 thank you for having me. I really appreciate 1151 00:42:56,739 --> 00:42:57,480 the opportunity 1152 00:42:57,780 --> 00:42:59,460 to talk with you this morning. It's been 1153 00:42:59,460 --> 00:42:59,960 lovely. 1154 00:43:00,585 --> 00:43:02,764 Absolutely. And thank you for listening, everybody. 1155 00:43:03,224 --> 00:43:03,724 Bye. 1156 00:43:04,184 --> 00:43:05,405 Bye. Thank you. 1157 00:43:06,025 --> 00:43:06,525 Bye. 1158 00:43:09,945 --> 00:43:12,605 Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human podcast 1159 00:43:12,824 --> 00:43:14,525 wherever you get your podcast. 1160 00:43:15,065 --> 00:43:15,480 Thanks. 1161 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:25,420 Bye.