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Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here.

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Thanks for listening to another episode

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of Hey, Human podcast.

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This is episode 451,

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and my guest is Anna Rose Moore.

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She's an actress, writer, director, prison activist, and

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documentarian.

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I met her recently, and we chatted about

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her project that she's been working on over

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the last couple years and it exposes the

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horrific abuses inside of women's prison.

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It's a trigger warning on this one for

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sexual assault and abuse and so take care

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of yourself as you listen.

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Check out heyhumanpodcast.com

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for links and to learn more about my

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guests and the show. Rate, review, and subscribe

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to Hey Human Podcast on Apple, iHeart, and

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Spotify podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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And thank you for listening. Be well.

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Be loved.

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Take care of yourself, and here we go.

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Anna Rose Moore, welcome to Hey Human. Thank

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you so much, Susan.

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I

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am so appreciative

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to be here. I'm so, so grateful.

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It was my pleasure. We met through Vanessa

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at Charles' birthday. No. That was such a

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special night. I just felt like

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I was connecting with so many wonderful, beautiful

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people, and,

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I was I felt like I was on

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a high after that night where we met.

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Yeah. Everybody was really neat. I I

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am never surprised at the quality of human

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I meet through Charles and now through Vanessa.

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She as well has really great friends. Yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Tell me a little bit about yourself,

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and where did you grow up? What shaped

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you as a person and lead you toward

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what we're really gonna talk about, the meat

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of the conversation?

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I grew up in Anaberg, Michigan.

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It's a college town, as a lot of

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people know, and it's very

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liberal. And there's, like, lots of because of

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the university,

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there's a lot lot of different cultural influences.

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It's a really unique

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place to grow up, and I am

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so grateful that I had that childhood. I

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really, really loved

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getting to

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being from there, and the people

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it's such an amazing community, and people are

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engaged in art and activism,

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and it really is a place that, like,

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everybody

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is hooked into the community.

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And that's not something you get everywhere.

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It was just it was just such a

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special, magical experience to

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grow up there. I really liked it. I'm

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also

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Jewish.

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That is an identity

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that I hold, and being

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from

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Ann Arbor, while it didn't have

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a small Jewish population, it wasn't like being

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from

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Western,

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Michigan, where it's like a bigger

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community. I didn't, I always felt like an

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outsider,

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if that kind of makes sense. I always

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felt a little

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different. Raised vegetarian, so just like different things

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that, you know, maybe now they don't, they

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don't sound weird being from LA, living in

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LA,

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but I think my experience growing up was

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like, I'm a little different. And like,

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how

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I don't know how people respond to me

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or where my place is in the world.

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Dad moved away

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to Minnesota when I was five, and so

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every about every other month, I would get

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on a plane by myself

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and,

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and fly to Minnesota.

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So that was also

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something

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that really shaped me was I had

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four families

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and four really wonderful, loving parents that are

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just my best friends. And he moved to

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be with my stepmom in Minnesota. And

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so kind of

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being able to feel

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that I had a place and a sense

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of belonging in all of these places and

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maybe being highly adaptable was something, a skill

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that I learned from that experience. And

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adaptable was something, a skill that I learned

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from that experience of having to, you

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know, join new families around the age of,

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like, five and six.

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So they were never married. They were on

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and off until after about a maybe a

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year and a half, but they never lived

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together. So I don't really have that experience

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of having two parents in the same house.

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Were you raised culturally Jewish or religiously Jewish

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or both?

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Both. But I would say that it wasn't,

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like, when we say religious and I are

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you Jewish?

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I I am. Yeah. Well, my father's Jewish,

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but my mother's Episcopalian,

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so technically not Jewish. But

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historically in the family was raised

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observing

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Jewish tradition as well as Christian

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tradition.

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Christmas,

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Monica,

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yada yada. Yes.

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Yes.

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I did a lot of that too. So

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my my dad and mom are Jewish,

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and, my stepdad's Jewish. My stepmom is not.

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So that was really exciting for me when

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she came into the family and I finally

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got to start dating Christmas.

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Yes. So it was like, I was like,

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okay. All right. You'll, you can stay. And

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when you said, was it religious?

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I think

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I don't want to speak for

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the Jews as a whole, but I think

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a lot of Jews that are not

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Orthodox

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would say like

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that even if you are observant,

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they don't really, we don't really feel religious,

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so I

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was raised

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relatively

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observant

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by my mom. My stepdad was is Jewish,

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but really kind of

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I didn't want anything to do with religion.

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We were observant,

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but it never

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it was never about, like, what you believe.

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It's it was more about rituals

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and culture and heritage and finding that through

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celebrating holidays.

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Right. Growing up, you were had this

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external understanding, and it sounds like internal understanding

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of a of a wide

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variety of humanity.

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Is that what drew you

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toward activism? I I suppose is a good

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word for it, for prison reform and what

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goes on in prisons.

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Absolutely.

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So

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my my mom and stepdad

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are activists, have always been activists, and my

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stepdad,

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he's a civil rights attorney.

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And so their worlds,

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growing up, I was they weren't the type

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of parents that would hang out with your

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friend's parents.

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They really had their own community, and that

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was a lot of, like, leftist

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lawyers. There's something called the National Lawyers Guild,

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which

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started

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in an answer to the National Bar Association,

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which didn't allow

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Jews and blacks.

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There was a time when it was like,

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they're very hard or prohibitive

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for

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Jewish people or black people to enter the

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American Bar

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Association. So a group of people created the

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National

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Lawyers Guild and, it's a group of progressive

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lawyers.

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Probably every lawyer that is a part of

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the ACLU is in

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the National Lawyers Guild. That's how my parents,

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my my stepdad and mom

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met each other, which was actually happened before

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I was born. My stepdad,

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though he wasn't with my mom at the

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time, was at the hospital the day I

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was born. Oh, that's interesting.

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Yeah. Yeah. But their

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activism was just like always going on

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in, in my home, outside of my home,

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people were always living with us,

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strangers,

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friends, family, activists,

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like, people engaged in different things, those morals

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and values kind of permeated every aspect

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of

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of whatever we did and who we were

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in conversation with and where we were going.

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Like,

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for example,

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when I was eight years old, my parents

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flew me flew us all to Washington, DC

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to March for gay marriage rights,

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and this was just like this this was

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a very normal thing. That's a great upbringing.

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That's so wonderful.

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Yeah. And really, I I kind of realize

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now that it it's probably not a very

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super typical, so I am I'm very grateful

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for it. And that was kind of the

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lens that I saw

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everything in. I was an I was an

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actor. Like, when I was four, I decided

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I wanna be an actor. Like, this is

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this is, like,

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this is my plan for myself.

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And my and they were very supportive. I

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don't know why, but they were very supportive

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of that.

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And

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as

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I kind of came into myself,

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I

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went to University of Michigan, then I went

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to New York and studied, and then I

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came to,

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and then I came to LA

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to

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pursue acting, and it just was not

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it wasn't going the way that I thought

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it was gonna go. The mission I had

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in my head

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turns out not only is it hard to

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get

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auditions, it's hard to get roles, and not

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only is it like, when you do get

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the roles that what I was

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getting at the time, they weren't fulfilling

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and they were

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for

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it felt like a version and this is

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to go back to kind of always feeling

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like a little bit of an outsider it

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felt like I was trying to be the

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version

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of what I thought

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Hollywood, the director, the script wanted me to

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be, and I never felt like I fit.

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And I think looking back, you know, I

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call myself a recovering actor.

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I started

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well, first I became a pop singer for

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a bit.

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So it took a left turn because I

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wanted to perform and I wasn't getting the

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opportunity. And I have a background in in

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vocal performance and it just

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met a producer and

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there were some pop tracks and I realized

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pretty quickly that I could write pop songs

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00:10:10,865 --> 00:10:12,245
fairly easily. So

281
00:10:12,865 --> 00:10:15,264
I started doing that and was, like, doing

282
00:10:15,264 --> 00:10:17,445
all the gay clubs in West Hollywood

283
00:10:17,825 --> 00:10:18,325
and

284
00:10:18,865 --> 00:10:20,964
music videos and had a little group.

285
00:10:21,904 --> 00:10:24,240
It was a lot of fun. I made

286
00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,019
no money and actually

287
00:10:26,399 --> 00:10:28,179
got scammed out of money.

288
00:10:28,879 --> 00:10:30,879
That's about right. Yeah. Welcome to the music

289
00:10:30,879 --> 00:10:32,019
industry. Yeah.

290
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,040
Tale as old as time. Tale as old

291
00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:36,259
as time. So,

292
00:10:36,794 --> 00:10:39,695
yeah, the music industry is brutal. It's brutal.

293
00:10:39,754 --> 00:10:42,794
Went back to acting and then started getting

294
00:10:42,794 --> 00:10:43,294
work

295
00:10:44,075 --> 00:10:46,154
and more and more, and that was exciting.

296
00:10:46,154 --> 00:10:47,674
And then I wanted to beef up my

297
00:10:47,674 --> 00:10:48,174
reel,

298
00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,079
so I wrote a short film with my

299
00:10:51,079 --> 00:10:53,019
friend so that we could get

300
00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,220
more content for our auditioning reels.

301
00:10:56,919 --> 00:10:58,779
And I joined a writers group

302
00:10:59,159 --> 00:11:02,440
to workshop this short film. And when I

303
00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,455
got there and, like, the first day, and

304
00:11:05,455 --> 00:11:06,195
I shared

305
00:11:06,654 --> 00:11:08,914
I shared my script and people read it

306
00:11:09,375 --> 00:11:12,115
out loud, and I was just like, oh,

307
00:11:12,894 --> 00:11:13,394
this,

308
00:11:14,335 --> 00:11:16,754
this is it. This is the thing. Like,

309
00:11:16,910 --> 00:11:20,049
I could have control over my own storytelling.

310
00:11:20,590 --> 00:11:21,090
I

311
00:11:21,870 --> 00:11:23,330
am not a pawn

312
00:11:24,429 --> 00:11:26,049
in somebody else's vision.

313
00:11:26,509 --> 00:11:27,490
I have agency

314
00:11:27,790 --> 00:11:30,670
and I'm valued for something other than the

315
00:11:30,670 --> 00:11:31,170
exterior.

316
00:11:33,045 --> 00:11:35,365
And that was a big turning point for

317
00:11:35,365 --> 00:11:35,865
me.

318
00:11:37,045 --> 00:11:38,745
And, but I

319
00:11:39,764 --> 00:11:40,325
thought that

320
00:11:41,445 --> 00:11:43,365
and this happens to still be true that

321
00:11:43,365 --> 00:11:43,865
I

322
00:11:44,339 --> 00:11:46,759
was gonna go into writing

323
00:11:47,059 --> 00:11:47,559
as

324
00:11:48,339 --> 00:11:50,259
a comedy writer. That was who I was

325
00:11:50,259 --> 00:11:52,440
gonna be. I was excited to do comedy,

326
00:11:53,139 --> 00:11:56,360
but then we had this challenge to

327
00:11:57,375 --> 00:11:59,615
write a feature film in a month, but

328
00:11:59,615 --> 00:12:01,215
you had months to prepare for it. This

329
00:12:01,215 --> 00:12:02,434
is in the writers group.

330
00:12:03,134 --> 00:12:05,875
And this thing kept nagging me, this story,

331
00:12:06,735 --> 00:12:08,434
and I couldn't let go of it.

332
00:12:09,549 --> 00:12:10,049
And

333
00:12:10,669 --> 00:12:11,649
what it was

334
00:12:12,110 --> 00:12:14,190
was a case that my stepdad had in

335
00:12:14,190 --> 00:12:17,009
the nineties. It was a class action lawsuit

336
00:12:17,149 --> 00:12:19,870
where 800 women prisoners sued the state of

337
00:12:19,870 --> 00:12:20,370
Michigan

338
00:12:21,154 --> 00:12:23,735
because they were being sexually abused and raped

339
00:12:23,794 --> 00:12:25,894
by their prison guards on a daily basis.

340
00:12:27,315 --> 00:12:28,375
And the state,

341
00:12:28,915 --> 00:12:30,934
in order to get the lawsuit dismissed,

342
00:12:31,875 --> 00:12:34,220
got the legislature to change

343
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,159
the civil rights law regarding what a human

344
00:12:37,159 --> 00:12:38,139
is in Michigan,

345
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,679
saying that under this new law, you are

346
00:12:41,079 --> 00:12:41,980
that prisoners

347
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,620
are no longer human and therefore

348
00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,620
not entitled to human rights.

349
00:12:47,804 --> 00:12:50,284
Therefore you cannot bring this lawsuit under a

350
00:12:50,284 --> 00:12:51,345
human rights violation.

351
00:12:51,884 --> 00:12:53,985
Wow. So these women

352
00:12:55,085 --> 00:12:57,565
yes. It's like, it was already bad, but

353
00:12:57,565 --> 00:12:59,424
then it became so much worse.

354
00:12:59,884 --> 00:13:00,384
And

355
00:13:00,860 --> 00:13:02,799
these women and their lawyers

356
00:13:03,179 --> 00:13:06,320
had to fight for thirteen years, all while

357
00:13:06,539 --> 00:13:09,100
most of them are still behind bars, getting

358
00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:11,179
retaliated against for being a part of this

359
00:13:11,179 --> 00:13:14,299
lawsuit. They finally appealed this to the Supreme

360
00:13:14,299 --> 00:13:15,360
Court of Michigan,

361
00:13:15,865 --> 00:13:17,004
where it was held

362
00:13:17,545 --> 00:13:20,024
for five years within this thirteen year time

363
00:13:20,024 --> 00:13:22,184
span. In 02/2008,

364
00:13:22,184 --> 00:13:24,504
the Supreme Court ruled in their favor and

365
00:13:24,504 --> 00:13:26,904
reversed this law, which gave them their day

366
00:13:26,904 --> 00:13:28,764
in court. They got their day in court

367
00:13:29,019 --> 00:13:31,179
and they won the largest settlement in Michigan

368
00:13:31,179 --> 00:13:31,679
history,

369
00:13:32,779 --> 00:13:34,959
removed all men from contact positions.

370
00:13:35,899 --> 00:13:38,720
So this doesn't happen anymore in Michigan.

371
00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:41,919
So this was something that

372
00:13:42,615 --> 00:13:44,294
you know, happened for, it went on for

373
00:13:44,294 --> 00:13:46,774
thirteen years. This was the backdrop of my

374
00:13:46,774 --> 00:13:47,274
childhood

375
00:13:47,975 --> 00:13:50,134
pretty much the whole time growing up. So

376
00:13:50,134 --> 00:13:51,975
I knew about this case and I knew

377
00:13:51,975 --> 00:13:54,134
it was important and I knew it was

378
00:13:54,134 --> 00:13:55,434
a landmark victory,

379
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,459
but I didn't know anything.

380
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:00,220
And when I started

381
00:14:00,759 --> 00:14:02,379
digging and doing the research,

382
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,399
I I mean, I would spend days and

383
00:14:07,399 --> 00:14:08,539
days just

384
00:14:09,524 --> 00:14:10,024
sobbing

385
00:14:11,125 --> 00:14:15,225
and pouring over research or interviewing people, and

386
00:14:15,524 --> 00:14:18,325
it was so painful as just somebody learning

387
00:14:18,325 --> 00:14:21,205
about it, let alone those who experienced it.

388
00:14:21,205 --> 00:14:22,725
So this was something that I wanted to

389
00:14:22,725 --> 00:14:24,389
do, and I went to my mentor and

390
00:14:24,389 --> 00:14:25,910
I said, I think I want to write

391
00:14:25,910 --> 00:14:27,990
this. And he's like, you've never written a

392
00:14:27,990 --> 00:14:30,389
screen guide of a feature film. Why don't

393
00:14:30,389 --> 00:14:32,710
you start with something simple, like a rom

394
00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:35,690
com, something that doesn't have to involve research?

395
00:14:37,605 --> 00:14:39,545
And I think I didn't really,

396
00:14:41,285 --> 00:14:43,285
there was a part of me that, you

397
00:14:43,285 --> 00:14:44,504
know, maybe

398
00:14:44,884 --> 00:14:45,625
at that time,

399
00:14:46,325 --> 00:14:46,904
like didn't,

400
00:14:47,605 --> 00:14:49,465
I hadn't been valued for my intellect

401
00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:52,579
since maybe college. And

402
00:14:53,759 --> 00:14:55,759
I don't know if I really believed in

403
00:14:55,759 --> 00:14:58,079
myself, but there was this thing that said,

404
00:14:58,079 --> 00:15:00,240
I just have to do this. I have

405
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:01,600
to do this. And I was going back

406
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:02,179
and forth

407
00:15:02,964 --> 00:15:04,345
and I was actually

408
00:15:04,644 --> 00:15:07,384
on a plane next to Ed Solomon,

409
00:15:07,764 --> 00:15:10,004
who wrote Laverne and Shirley and Men in

410
00:15:10,004 --> 00:15:10,504
Black.

411
00:15:12,325 --> 00:15:13,684
And I didn't know who he was, but

412
00:15:13,684 --> 00:15:15,600
I ended up telling him like, I was

413
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,919
thinking about doing this, and I didn't I

414
00:15:17,919 --> 00:15:20,559
had no business writing this. I'd never written

415
00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:22,639
before. And he was just like, you have

416
00:15:22,639 --> 00:15:24,320
to do it. Do this. Don't do the

417
00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,059
rom com.

418
00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:28,080
So literally a day after that, I was

419
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,460
like, okay, I'm gonna do this.

420
00:15:29,865 --> 00:15:31,784
And it was the hardest thing I'd ever

421
00:15:31,784 --> 00:15:32,605
done. And

422
00:15:32,904 --> 00:15:34,365
I wrote this feature film

423
00:15:34,745 --> 00:15:35,245
and

424
00:15:35,784 --> 00:15:38,105
I had no ego because this is not

425
00:15:38,105 --> 00:15:39,784
what my training was in. So I would

426
00:15:39,784 --> 00:15:41,625
get notes and I would just do another

427
00:15:41,625 --> 00:15:43,404
draft and another draft. And

428
00:15:44,190 --> 00:15:45,090
that script

429
00:15:45,950 --> 00:15:48,830
won the GLAAD list and the and the

430
00:15:48,830 --> 00:15:51,710
Athena list, and then it was optioned by

431
00:15:51,710 --> 00:15:53,090
Ben Stiller's company,

432
00:15:53,470 --> 00:15:55,950
Red Hour Films, subsequently went on to be

433
00:15:55,950 --> 00:15:58,769
optioned by re optioned at Trevor Noah's company,

434
00:15:58,910 --> 00:15:59,649
Day Zero.

435
00:16:00,134 --> 00:16:02,934
Currently, actually have it have the script back

436
00:16:02,934 --> 00:16:05,654
because it went into many forms and COVID

437
00:16:05,654 --> 00:16:07,514
happened, and it never went out.

438
00:16:07,894 --> 00:16:10,774
So I have a wonderful I can't tell

439
00:16:10,774 --> 00:16:12,715
you who, but I have a wonderful actress

440
00:16:13,340 --> 00:16:16,399
attached right now. But because it went through

441
00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:18,160
so many

442
00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:22,300
ups and downs and almost for so many

443
00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:25,660
years, I decided that I needed to make

444
00:16:25,660 --> 00:16:26,320
the documentary

445
00:16:26,940 --> 00:16:27,440
of

446
00:16:28,605 --> 00:16:30,065
of get this story out.

447
00:16:30,605 --> 00:16:31,664
So the film

448
00:16:32,044 --> 00:16:34,924
is a story about the case, but the

449
00:16:34,924 --> 00:16:35,424
documentary

450
00:16:35,884 --> 00:16:36,865
is the story

451
00:16:37,245 --> 00:16:38,625
about the process

452
00:16:39,164 --> 00:16:39,664
of

453
00:16:39,965 --> 00:16:42,929
your experience making the movie, or how did

454
00:16:43,089 --> 00:16:44,470
where did those two things

455
00:16:44,769 --> 00:16:45,269
align?

456
00:16:45,889 --> 00:16:47,589
No. The the documentary

457
00:16:48,370 --> 00:16:50,549
is is about the case and the trial

458
00:16:51,250 --> 00:16:53,269
and all of the people that were impacted

459
00:16:53,730 --> 00:16:56,230
and and lived it. The film follows

460
00:16:56,815 --> 00:16:59,294
is also about the the case and the

461
00:16:59,294 --> 00:17:00,195
trial, but

462
00:17:00,574 --> 00:17:01,714
follows a specific

463
00:17:02,174 --> 00:17:04,335
path. You know, a a film could only

464
00:17:04,335 --> 00:17:06,755
be so long and, it has to include,

465
00:17:07,214 --> 00:17:09,875
you know, tr traditional story beats and character

466
00:17:09,934 --> 00:17:12,659
arcs. So I wasn't able to tell

467
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,579
the full, full story

468
00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:15,619
in a feature.

469
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,880
So by doing this, I'm able to give

470
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,119
voice to the people that lived it. But

471
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,279
going back a little bit, when I first

472
00:17:23,279 --> 00:17:23,779
started

473
00:17:24,674 --> 00:17:25,894
researching and writing

474
00:17:26,515 --> 00:17:29,174
the feature, it was like the first time

475
00:17:29,955 --> 00:17:32,295
ever in my life where I felt like

476
00:17:32,674 --> 00:17:33,815
there was a confluence

477
00:17:34,674 --> 00:17:35,174
of

478
00:17:35,955 --> 00:17:36,455
every,

479
00:17:36,835 --> 00:17:38,775
all of my lived experiences

480
00:17:39,154 --> 00:17:40,910
and my identity, like,

481
00:17:41,930 --> 00:17:44,349
because I was finally doing something

482
00:17:44,809 --> 00:17:46,830
impactful and I think I felt

483
00:17:47,369 --> 00:17:48,830
like my art, my

484
00:17:49,609 --> 00:17:51,470
being an actress and a singer, like,

485
00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:55,210
you know, it felt so minimal compared to

486
00:17:55,210 --> 00:17:56,384
what my parents were doing

487
00:17:57,265 --> 00:17:58,805
and had done and like,

488
00:17:59,424 --> 00:18:00,644
just didn't feel

489
00:18:01,424 --> 00:18:04,065
that, like at least the types of projects

490
00:18:04,065 --> 00:18:05,045
that I was involved

491
00:18:05,664 --> 00:18:06,565
in, the storytelling,

492
00:18:07,265 --> 00:18:09,765
you know, when you're auditioning for like Bikini

493
00:18:09,825 --> 00:18:10,884
Girl number two,

494
00:18:11,424 --> 00:18:13,019
it's hard to feel

495
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,059
a deep sense of purpose.

496
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:17,500
So

497
00:18:18,039 --> 00:18:20,059
this is the first time that I felt

498
00:18:20,519 --> 00:18:21,019
purpose.

499
00:18:22,039 --> 00:18:23,179
The acting industry

500
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:23,799
really

501
00:18:26,434 --> 00:18:28,615
yeah. It was brutal. It was brutal.

502
00:18:30,275 --> 00:18:31,575
And I I actually

503
00:18:32,355 --> 00:18:35,255
one of the last films I did, I

504
00:18:35,474 --> 00:18:37,474
I got a role in a Liam a

505
00:18:37,474 --> 00:18:39,875
Liam Neeson movie, and I had a whole

506
00:18:39,875 --> 00:18:41,335
scene, just me and him.

507
00:18:42,210 --> 00:18:44,450
I flew to Atlanta. We shot the thing.

508
00:18:44,450 --> 00:18:46,150
He was a dream. It was so sweet.

509
00:18:46,369 --> 00:18:48,789
And then it got cut.

510
00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:53,269
And it was just like, okay.

511
00:18:53,984 --> 00:18:56,065
That really, that was one of, one of

512
00:18:56,065 --> 00:18:58,065
the many things that filled the deal. And

513
00:18:58,065 --> 00:18:59,585
I was just like, I'm just going to

514
00:18:59,585 --> 00:19:00,964
be focusing on writing

515
00:19:01,265 --> 00:19:03,825
and, and then over COVID. And so I,

516
00:19:03,825 --> 00:19:05,664
so I've been writing, I have been writing

517
00:19:05,664 --> 00:19:08,450
primarily comedies, but this was the first feature

518
00:19:08,450 --> 00:19:09,269
that I wrote.

519
00:19:09,730 --> 00:19:13,170
And then over the pandemic, I had two

520
00:19:13,170 --> 00:19:16,529
babies. After my second was born, I was

521
00:19:16,529 --> 00:19:17,670
feeling this

522
00:19:18,210 --> 00:19:19,269
loss of identity

523
00:19:19,890 --> 00:19:21,029
and lack of control.

524
00:19:22,144 --> 00:19:24,804
And I had never admitted to anybody

525
00:19:25,184 --> 00:19:26,565
that I wanted to direct.

526
00:19:27,424 --> 00:19:29,505
I think that was the same thing with

527
00:19:29,505 --> 00:19:32,065
writing. I just like, I didn't see a

528
00:19:32,065 --> 00:19:33,764
lot of examples

529
00:19:34,065 --> 00:19:34,565
of

530
00:19:35,509 --> 00:19:36,009
female

531
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:38,710
writers on the scripts that I was given.

532
00:19:38,710 --> 00:19:40,549
There's just not that many. That's why it's

533
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:43,669
so important for women to do it. Even

534
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:44,329
I had

535
00:19:45,190 --> 00:19:46,329
preconceived notions

536
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:48,789
of I I think I had bias against

537
00:19:48,789 --> 00:19:49,289
myself

538
00:19:49,954 --> 00:19:52,275
to enter into writing to begin with, and

539
00:19:52,275 --> 00:19:54,775
then directing is, like, a whole other level

540
00:19:55,394 --> 00:19:55,894
because

541
00:19:57,075 --> 00:19:58,535
you just have to

542
00:19:59,714 --> 00:20:01,095
bring so much confidence

543
00:20:02,130 --> 00:20:04,289
to the space, and you can't really have

544
00:20:04,289 --> 00:20:06,690
any self doubt when you're when you're doing

545
00:20:06,690 --> 00:20:08,690
that. And I so I never admitted that

546
00:20:08,690 --> 00:20:09,750
I wanted to direct,

547
00:20:10,210 --> 00:20:12,049
and I called up a producer friend of

548
00:20:12,049 --> 00:20:12,549
mine,

549
00:20:12,930 --> 00:20:15,410
and I said I kinda, like, whispered it

550
00:20:15,410 --> 00:20:17,269
to her, like, I think I wanna direct.

551
00:20:18,965 --> 00:20:21,144
And I have this short film

552
00:20:21,525 --> 00:20:22,345
that is,

553
00:20:23,445 --> 00:20:25,285
a part of a broader film that I

554
00:20:25,285 --> 00:20:25,785
wrote.

555
00:20:26,644 --> 00:20:28,005
What do you think? And so she was

556
00:20:28,005 --> 00:20:29,365
like, send me the pages. And she got

557
00:20:29,365 --> 00:20:30,404
back to me and she was like, this

558
00:20:30,404 --> 00:20:32,565
is the funniest 10 pages I've ever read.

559
00:20:32,565 --> 00:20:34,779
Like, let's do it. And we didn't know

560
00:20:34,779 --> 00:20:36,059
how we were gonna do it, how we

561
00:20:36,059 --> 00:20:37,519
were gonna raise the money,

562
00:20:38,539 --> 00:20:41,180
who was gonna shoot it, whatever. And I

563
00:20:41,180 --> 00:20:43,119
said, let's put a date on the books

564
00:20:43,259 --> 00:20:44,320
two months out,

565
00:20:45,180 --> 00:20:46,380
and we

566
00:20:47,255 --> 00:20:49,414
everything came together. It was, like, the most

567
00:20:49,414 --> 00:20:51,975
magical experience ever. Everything came together. It was

568
00:20:51,975 --> 00:20:55,515
so empowering. Charles Pappert, our mutual friend,

569
00:20:56,535 --> 00:20:58,555
was the director of photography,

570
00:20:58,855 --> 00:21:01,890
and we just started this we met through

571
00:21:01,890 --> 00:21:04,529
this project and started this beautiful friendship, but

572
00:21:04,529 --> 00:21:07,250
we were so in sync. Charles, for those

573
00:21:07,250 --> 00:21:08,990
who don't know, is,

574
00:21:09,570 --> 00:21:11,809
shot all of Key and Peele. He worked

575
00:21:11,809 --> 00:21:15,009
on Crazy Ex Girlfriend Mindy Project and got

576
00:21:15,009 --> 00:21:16,309
a start in Steadicam

577
00:21:16,845 --> 00:21:18,525
on The West Wing and,

578
00:21:18,924 --> 00:21:20,224
American History X.

579
00:21:21,325 --> 00:21:22,784
He's just like this

580
00:21:23,085 --> 00:21:25,244
Yeah. He's great. He's a great guy. Industry

581
00:21:25,244 --> 00:21:27,244
titan and he's so smart. And so having

582
00:21:27,244 --> 00:21:29,744
somebody like that who just

583
00:21:30,940 --> 00:21:33,200
has so much more experience than I do,

584
00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:36,059
being able to be on a team with

585
00:21:36,059 --> 00:21:38,220
him and know and know that he's not

586
00:21:38,220 --> 00:21:39,980
gonna let me fail. We can do this

587
00:21:39,980 --> 00:21:42,220
together. And we were just, like, very much

588
00:21:42,220 --> 00:21:44,299
had the same sensibilities of how we wanted

589
00:21:44,299 --> 00:21:45,440
the project to go.

590
00:21:46,955 --> 00:21:48,654
And one other part about that

591
00:21:49,115 --> 00:21:51,134
is, there was a sex scene

592
00:21:52,075 --> 00:21:54,075
in that short that I shot, and I

593
00:21:54,075 --> 00:21:55,615
actually acted in this short.

594
00:21:56,234 --> 00:21:59,320
And I brought on an intimacy coordinator. I

595
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,400
really wanted to do everything right, everything that

596
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,099
wasn't done when I was

597
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,180
in the acting space.

598
00:22:05,559 --> 00:22:07,480
And I had a wonderful costar who was

599
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:07,980
just

600
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,220
so easy and brilliant to work with.

601
00:22:12,795 --> 00:22:13,295
But

602
00:22:13,595 --> 00:22:14,414
I remember

603
00:22:15,275 --> 00:22:16,414
getting to,

604
00:22:17,275 --> 00:22:18,174
first of all,

605
00:22:18,634 --> 00:22:19,134
decide

606
00:22:19,674 --> 00:22:21,115
what I wanted to wear for the sex

607
00:22:21,115 --> 00:22:23,615
scene. I got I kept a bra on.

608
00:22:23,674 --> 00:22:26,154
I had just had a baby drop a

609
00:22:26,154 --> 00:22:28,409
few months prior, so, you know, I got

610
00:22:28,409 --> 00:22:30,329
to decide what the shot was going to

611
00:22:30,329 --> 00:22:32,490
be and how much of my body was

612
00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:34,649
going to show. And in the middle of

613
00:22:34,649 --> 00:22:35,869
the scene, getting to

614
00:22:36,250 --> 00:22:37,149
yell cut

615
00:22:37,769 --> 00:22:39,869
and work with my scene partner

616
00:22:40,250 --> 00:22:42,884
was the most empowering experience of my life.

617
00:22:43,204 --> 00:22:45,144
So coming off of that project,

618
00:22:45,765 --> 00:22:48,345
I could start to see myself differently

619
00:22:49,365 --> 00:22:50,825
and start to, to

620
00:22:51,125 --> 00:22:54,424
embody this new person that I was becoming.

621
00:22:55,285 --> 00:22:56,825
I no longer like,

622
00:22:57,769 --> 00:22:58,269
trying

623
00:22:58,649 --> 00:22:59,149
to

624
00:22:59,450 --> 00:23:01,769
play the role of arm candy in something.

625
00:23:01,769 --> 00:23:05,149
I'm now directing. So who is this person?

626
00:23:05,529 --> 00:23:07,069
Because of that experience,

627
00:23:07,450 --> 00:23:08,429
I was able

628
00:23:09,289 --> 00:23:09,789
to

629
00:23:10,649 --> 00:23:11,789
start to envision

630
00:23:12,724 --> 00:23:14,904
the idea of directing the documentary

631
00:23:15,205 --> 00:23:18,005
of that feature that we talked about. Because

632
00:23:18,005 --> 00:23:19,305
for so many years,

633
00:23:19,765 --> 00:23:22,005
people I would tell people about the story

634
00:23:22,005 --> 00:23:23,285
and they would say, that should be a

635
00:23:23,285 --> 00:23:24,884
documentary. You should make a documentary. And I

636
00:23:24,884 --> 00:23:26,085
was like, no, no, no. I'm not a

637
00:23:26,085 --> 00:23:26,585
documentarian.

638
00:23:26,965 --> 00:23:28,470
I like, I'm just gonna do it this

639
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:30,869
way. This is the path sometimes it takes

640
00:23:30,869 --> 00:23:31,690
seeing to to

641
00:23:32,150 --> 00:23:35,210
seeing is believing and stepping into that role

642
00:23:35,670 --> 00:23:37,609
and starting to see myself differently.

643
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:38,570
I

644
00:23:39,349 --> 00:23:42,650
was able to then see that I could

645
00:23:43,244 --> 00:23:44,464
I could make a documentary.

646
00:23:45,244 --> 00:23:46,625
It's interesting to me

647
00:23:47,565 --> 00:23:50,525
your story of finding your voice and where

648
00:23:50,525 --> 00:23:51,984
you find your comfort

649
00:23:52,684 --> 00:23:55,325
and having people around you believing in you

650
00:23:55,325 --> 00:23:56,785
and giving you that confidence

651
00:23:57,309 --> 00:23:59,490
till you could believe in yourself, which is

652
00:24:00,109 --> 00:24:01,570
it's it's an important

653
00:24:02,029 --> 00:24:04,029
I think it's important that people around us

654
00:24:04,029 --> 00:24:05,950
lift us up until we figure out how

655
00:24:05,950 --> 00:24:08,029
to lift ourselves up. Right? That's part of

656
00:24:08,029 --> 00:24:10,450
growing up. It's part of the process. Absolutely.

657
00:24:11,150 --> 00:24:12,130
Did you interview

658
00:24:13,815 --> 00:24:16,454
the people who were still incarcerated, or had

659
00:24:16,454 --> 00:24:18,634
you interviewed people that had been in that

660
00:24:18,775 --> 00:24:21,815
lawsuit and then gotten out of prison? My

661
00:24:21,815 --> 00:24:25,174
my stepdad was, co lead counsel, and the

662
00:24:25,174 --> 00:24:27,750
other lead counsel on the case is this

663
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:30,089
incredible attorney named Deborah LaBelle.

664
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:31,529
And

665
00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:36,630
she had two trials before they reached a

666
00:24:36,630 --> 00:24:39,109
settlement. They did two trials back to back,

667
00:24:39,109 --> 00:24:41,210
each one existing of 10

668
00:24:41,894 --> 00:24:42,394
plaintiffs.

669
00:24:42,775 --> 00:24:44,695
Many of them were incarcerated at the time

670
00:24:44,695 --> 00:24:46,234
and some of them were out.

671
00:24:46,855 --> 00:24:47,674
And she

672
00:24:48,134 --> 00:24:49,355
said that she vowed

673
00:24:50,775 --> 00:24:52,394
to her clients that

674
00:24:53,255 --> 00:24:55,174
she wouldn't stop for as long as it

675
00:24:55,174 --> 00:24:57,089
took, and she would make sure that every

676
00:24:57,089 --> 00:24:58,470
single one of them was released.

677
00:24:59,330 --> 00:24:59,830
And

678
00:25:00,210 --> 00:25:01,830
about four months ago,

679
00:25:02,289 --> 00:25:03,269
the last person

680
00:25:03,809 --> 00:25:04,950
was released.

681
00:25:05,410 --> 00:25:07,570
My experience with talking to people who are

682
00:25:07,570 --> 00:25:08,070
incarcerated,

683
00:25:08,529 --> 00:25:10,450
and, you know, it's been a a small

684
00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:11,349
handful, but

685
00:25:11,704 --> 00:25:14,525
there is that sense that they have of

686
00:25:14,825 --> 00:25:17,305
not only extraordinary boredom, but feeling as if

687
00:25:17,305 --> 00:25:19,384
they don't have a voice and struggling to

688
00:25:19,384 --> 00:25:20,204
find that,

689
00:25:20,585 --> 00:25:22,744
especially those who have been abused, which have

690
00:25:22,744 --> 00:25:24,505
been the focus of the ones I've spoken

691
00:25:24,505 --> 00:25:26,849
with for the most part. People who have

692
00:25:27,009 --> 00:25:27,509
suffered

693
00:25:28,049 --> 00:25:29,190
at the hands of

694
00:25:29,970 --> 00:25:30,470
guards.

695
00:25:30,929 --> 00:25:31,569
And it's

696
00:25:31,970 --> 00:25:33,190
Yeah. It is

697
00:25:33,650 --> 00:25:34,309
a lot.

698
00:25:35,009 --> 00:25:36,630
It's an everyday occurrence,

699
00:25:37,009 --> 00:25:39,169
and it's an there's more of the bad

700
00:25:39,169 --> 00:25:40,454
guys, I think, in there,

701
00:25:40,855 --> 00:25:42,615
on the side of the guards, on the

702
00:25:42,615 --> 00:25:43,674
good guys' side

703
00:25:44,534 --> 00:25:46,375
than not. At least that's what it seems

704
00:25:46,375 --> 00:25:46,875
like

705
00:25:47,734 --> 00:25:49,255
with all the research I've done and the

706
00:25:49,255 --> 00:25:50,954
people I've spoken with, including

707
00:25:51,575 --> 00:25:55,009
ex wardens and several lawyers. It's a problem.

708
00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:56,509
I talk to a lot of people who

709
00:25:56,509 --> 00:25:57,009
are

710
00:25:57,390 --> 00:25:58,930
incarcerated now who

711
00:25:59,309 --> 00:26:01,650
have, you know, their their cell phones

712
00:26:02,269 --> 00:26:02,769
inside,

713
00:26:03,070 --> 00:26:04,509
which I know you're not supposed to have.

714
00:26:04,509 --> 00:26:05,970
So Wow. Yeah.

715
00:26:06,555 --> 00:26:08,315
I mean, they get sold those phones by

716
00:26:08,315 --> 00:26:10,394
the guards who then raid them and steal

717
00:26:10,394 --> 00:26:11,914
the phones back and then sell them to

718
00:26:11,914 --> 00:26:14,475
them again. It's a huge moneymaker for the

719
00:26:14,475 --> 00:26:14,975
guards.

720
00:26:15,595 --> 00:26:16,715
You know what I mean? Like, there's a

721
00:26:16,715 --> 00:26:18,154
lot. It's just bad. And I don't I

722
00:26:18,154 --> 00:26:20,555
don't wanna dominate this conversation because it's about

723
00:26:20,555 --> 00:26:22,049
you. But that being

724
00:26:22,589 --> 00:26:24,529
said, when you talk to these women

725
00:26:25,630 --> 00:26:27,950
Yeah. And you are helping them find their

726
00:26:27,950 --> 00:26:29,869
voice, and I just I think it's an

727
00:26:29,869 --> 00:26:31,089
interesting parallel

728
00:26:31,630 --> 00:26:33,890
of those who have helped you find yours.

729
00:26:34,109 --> 00:26:35,730
Mhmm. And then in turn,

730
00:26:36,184 --> 00:26:38,125
you could have you could have taken that

731
00:26:38,664 --> 00:26:39,164
newfound

732
00:26:40,105 --> 00:26:42,984
understanding of yourself and done anything. But what

733
00:26:42,984 --> 00:26:46,044
did you do? You turned toward those

734
00:26:46,505 --> 00:26:49,244
who didn't have a voice and helped them

735
00:26:50,849 --> 00:26:53,029
find their voice. That's massive.

736
00:26:53,650 --> 00:26:55,590
Working on this project is

737
00:26:56,849 --> 00:26:59,410
the the first time and continues to be

738
00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:01,170
the thing that is like this I feel

739
00:27:01,170 --> 00:27:02,609
like this is what I was quite here

740
00:27:02,609 --> 00:27:03,109
for.

741
00:27:05,575 --> 00:27:06,775
And I've always

742
00:27:07,734 --> 00:27:09,355
I've been working on this project,

743
00:27:10,375 --> 00:27:13,015
not the documentary, but I started writing this

744
00:27:13,015 --> 00:27:15,035
about twelve years ago. So

745
00:27:15,575 --> 00:27:16,555
this has been

746
00:27:19,109 --> 00:27:21,109
this big part of my life that is

747
00:27:21,109 --> 00:27:23,269
just like, like, I I know I was

748
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:25,369
put here to get this story out, and,

749
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:28,490
you know, I cannot wait for Hollywood to

750
00:27:28,549 --> 00:27:30,309
figure out this version of it so I

751
00:27:30,309 --> 00:27:32,234
can go I can go make it. But

752
00:27:32,714 --> 00:27:34,575
to your point about talking to

753
00:27:35,674 --> 00:27:36,815
people who

754
00:27:37,275 --> 00:27:39,054
have experienced so much trauma

755
00:27:39,434 --> 00:27:42,095
and so much pain and are literally

756
00:27:42,554 --> 00:27:43,694
the most marginalized

757
00:27:44,315 --> 00:27:45,295
of our society,

758
00:27:46,394 --> 00:27:48,015
it's really difficult. And

759
00:27:48,390 --> 00:27:50,809
my intention in this process, and I'm about

760
00:27:50,950 --> 00:27:52,789
a third of the way through filming this

761
00:27:52,789 --> 00:27:53,289
documentary

762
00:27:53,750 --> 00:27:54,650
half the way,

763
00:27:55,509 --> 00:27:58,710
I'm trying to do my best to approach

764
00:27:58,710 --> 00:28:01,690
this with the utmost care and knowing that

765
00:28:03,295 --> 00:28:06,255
I'm gonna make missteps. This is not something

766
00:28:06,255 --> 00:28:07,474
I've done before.

767
00:28:08,734 --> 00:28:09,714
I am not

768
00:28:10,494 --> 00:28:11,234
a psychologist.

769
00:28:12,335 --> 00:28:13,315
I am not

770
00:28:14,414 --> 00:28:17,154
I'm trying to educate myself through this process

771
00:28:17,429 --> 00:28:19,049
about trauma. I've been

772
00:28:19,509 --> 00:28:22,569
in contact with one of the women who

773
00:28:22,869 --> 00:28:24,950
was a plaintiff in this case. We've been

774
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:26,169
having a lot of discussions

775
00:28:27,349 --> 00:28:28,710
because there are people who are on the

776
00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:30,329
fence. There are people who are really

777
00:28:30,869 --> 00:28:32,649
enthusiastic about being part

778
00:28:33,174 --> 00:28:34,154
of this documentary

779
00:28:34,535 --> 00:28:36,375
and wanting to share their story and take

780
00:28:36,375 --> 00:28:38,075
ownership, and there are people

781
00:28:38,695 --> 00:28:40,695
who, you know, have been burned over and

782
00:28:40,695 --> 00:28:42,394
over and over again and understandably

783
00:28:43,174 --> 00:28:45,095
are on the fence or don't wanna be

784
00:28:45,095 --> 00:28:47,015
part of this. And I understand that too,

785
00:28:47,015 --> 00:28:47,255
and I'm

786
00:28:48,009 --> 00:28:50,250
and and they're also trying to help me

787
00:28:50,250 --> 00:28:50,750
understand,

788
00:28:51,529 --> 00:28:53,929
like, how trauma exists in the in the

789
00:28:53,929 --> 00:28:55,150
body for a lifetime

790
00:28:56,009 --> 00:28:57,549
given what you've been through.

791
00:28:58,089 --> 00:28:59,549
During my interviews

792
00:29:00,009 --> 00:29:00,509
with

793
00:29:01,035 --> 00:29:02,174
the the former plaintiffs,

794
00:29:02,715 --> 00:29:03,215
I

795
00:29:03,595 --> 00:29:05,434
have brought in and will continue to bring

796
00:29:05,434 --> 00:29:06,735
in trauma counselors.

797
00:29:07,355 --> 00:29:08,095
We will

798
00:29:08,634 --> 00:29:10,475
pay to bring in a support person for

799
00:29:10,475 --> 00:29:10,555
for

800
00:29:11,674 --> 00:29:13,855
a support person for you of your choosing.

801
00:29:14,429 --> 00:29:16,609
If you don't wanna bring your own

802
00:29:17,230 --> 00:29:18,450
therapist or counselor,

803
00:29:19,149 --> 00:29:20,210
there will be one

804
00:29:20,909 --> 00:29:21,889
there. And

805
00:29:22,669 --> 00:29:23,409
I also

806
00:29:24,589 --> 00:29:26,589
because everything was recorded on,

807
00:29:27,595 --> 00:29:30,315
because there's a video recording of the entire

808
00:29:30,315 --> 00:29:30,815
trial

809
00:29:31,434 --> 00:29:32,654
of all of their testimony,

810
00:29:33,034 --> 00:29:34,014
where they painstakingly

811
00:29:34,714 --> 00:29:37,115
went through every single thing that happened to

812
00:29:37,115 --> 00:29:38,894
them, which is really awful,

813
00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:42,579
I, approaching this,

814
00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:45,619
I decided that I don't wanna ask anybody

815
00:29:45,839 --> 00:29:46,579
to relive

816
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:47,460
anything

817
00:29:48,319 --> 00:29:48,819
specifically,

818
00:29:50,559 --> 00:29:53,200
unless they want to, but it's not going

819
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,654
to be a question of mine because I

820
00:29:55,654 --> 00:29:58,695
already have that video footage. Did you interview

821
00:29:58,695 --> 00:29:59,835
any of the defense

822
00:30:00,695 --> 00:30:02,954
or any of the people who

823
00:30:03,734 --> 00:30:04,394
have been

824
00:30:05,335 --> 00:30:06,954
convicted of the crime? And are they

825
00:30:07,654 --> 00:30:08,634
incarcerated now?

826
00:30:09,860 --> 00:30:12,340
There were a few who got convicted. I

827
00:30:12,340 --> 00:30:13,539
think a lot of them are out. I

828
00:30:13,539 --> 00:30:15,240
think a lot of them weren't convicted.

829
00:30:15,619 --> 00:30:17,940
In my experience, they get placed into other

830
00:30:17,940 --> 00:30:19,940
prisons to do the same thing over again

831
00:30:19,940 --> 00:30:21,000
or given promotions.

832
00:30:22,414 --> 00:30:24,755
Oh my god. No. It's really it's

833
00:30:25,294 --> 00:30:27,154
it went I mean,

834
00:30:28,015 --> 00:30:29,615
like I said, like, this doesn't happen in

835
00:30:29,615 --> 00:30:30,994
Michigan women's prisons

836
00:30:31,375 --> 00:30:34,174
anymore, but this still happens. Every day. And

837
00:30:34,174 --> 00:30:37,070
that's why it's important to tell this story

838
00:30:37,070 --> 00:30:38,369
because these women,

839
00:30:39,309 --> 00:30:41,869
they're the heroes of this story. They decided

840
00:30:41,869 --> 00:30:43,090
to stay with this case

841
00:30:43,470 --> 00:30:44,609
despite retaliation

842
00:30:46,029 --> 00:30:48,750
for years and years and years when nobody

843
00:30:48,750 --> 00:30:49,970
was believing them.

844
00:30:51,005 --> 00:30:52,924
And they were told nobody's gonna ever believe

845
00:30:52,924 --> 00:30:54,764
you. You're gonna go through this whole trial,

846
00:30:54,764 --> 00:30:56,144
a six week trial.

847
00:30:56,444 --> 00:30:58,944
You're gonna have to relive every traumatic moment,

848
00:30:59,164 --> 00:31:01,005
not just in prison, but before you got

849
00:31:01,005 --> 00:31:02,944
to prison, or what happened to you before.

850
00:31:03,580 --> 00:31:05,420
And then you're gonna be on the sand,

851
00:31:05,420 --> 00:31:07,660
and people are gonna ask what you did

852
00:31:07,660 --> 00:31:09,660
to get into prison to try to paint

853
00:31:09,660 --> 00:31:10,799
you as

854
00:31:11,740 --> 00:31:13,680
as as the sum total of that

855
00:31:14,220 --> 00:31:16,720
experience. Human, I think, is the To dehumanize.

856
00:31:17,224 --> 00:31:19,705
Dehumanize. There's this conception that, well, you shouldn't

857
00:31:19,705 --> 00:31:21,384
do crimes in order to get in prison,

858
00:31:21,384 --> 00:31:24,664
but prison is filled with bright, articulate people.

859
00:31:24,664 --> 00:31:26,845
It's filled with people who are uneducated

860
00:31:27,384 --> 00:31:27,884
and,

861
00:31:28,424 --> 00:31:30,585
did not see another option other than to

862
00:31:30,585 --> 00:31:33,085
do criminal activity in order to try and

863
00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:34,579
survive.

864
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,220
There are plenty of women who are incarcerated

865
00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:40,339
because they fought back against their abuser.

866
00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:41,299
Yes.

867
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:42,980
There's a lot of these things.

868
00:31:43,599 --> 00:31:46,339
And the majority of women are actually

869
00:31:46,799 --> 00:31:48,579
imprisoned for crimes that

870
00:31:49,075 --> 00:31:51,335
as accessories to crimes that men committed.

871
00:31:52,434 --> 00:31:52,934
And,

872
00:31:54,035 --> 00:31:55,575
and, you know, some of these women,

873
00:31:55,914 --> 00:31:56,414
it,

874
00:31:56,755 --> 00:31:58,674
like, they should have never been in prison

875
00:31:58,674 --> 00:32:01,235
to begin with. Given their, given their crimes,

876
00:32:01,235 --> 00:32:03,640
like the crimes, like, should never, if they

877
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,500
had a better lawyer, if they,

878
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:07,400
you know, if if they were from an

879
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,460
affluent family,

880
00:32:08,839 --> 00:32:10,519
they would never have gone to prison, but

881
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:13,319
they weren't. Right. Right. The the central thesis

882
00:32:13,319 --> 00:32:13,819
was

883
00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:17,019
we sentence people to prison in this country.

884
00:32:17,644 --> 00:32:19,825
We do not sentence people to be raped.

885
00:32:20,444 --> 00:32:21,264
That is right.

886
00:32:21,884 --> 00:32:24,704
Or beaten or whatever other kinds of tortures

887
00:32:25,325 --> 00:32:27,804
that will befall them. And that's that's a

888
00:32:27,804 --> 00:32:29,744
whole other part to the documentary

889
00:32:30,204 --> 00:32:32,544
of, like like, this system is so broken.

890
00:32:32,690 --> 00:32:34,529
What are we doing? What are we how

891
00:32:34,529 --> 00:32:36,710
are we serving the general population

892
00:32:38,769 --> 00:32:41,429
to put people away and then torture them

893
00:32:41,970 --> 00:32:44,049
so so that by the time they come

894
00:32:44,049 --> 00:32:46,630
out, they have such compounding trauma

895
00:32:47,194 --> 00:32:49,454
that they can't live productive lives.

896
00:32:49,835 --> 00:32:51,934
Or they, or even if they aren't like

897
00:32:52,075 --> 00:32:53,595
many of these women went on to get

898
00:32:53,595 --> 00:32:57,194
multiple master's degrees and are doing so, so

899
00:32:57,194 --> 00:32:59,994
well, but you still have this background of

900
00:32:59,994 --> 00:33:00,494
trauma

901
00:33:02,359 --> 00:33:05,480
that you that it's very, very difficult unless

902
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:06,220
you have

903
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:08,619
so many tools

904
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,399
to get out from under. So did you

905
00:33:11,399 --> 00:33:13,240
and did you not get a chance to

906
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:14,539
talk to any of the defendants?

907
00:33:15,934 --> 00:33:18,914
So they weren't the defendants were the state

908
00:33:19,134 --> 00:33:19,795
of Michigan.

909
00:33:20,174 --> 00:33:22,295
The warden, I I called her. I talked

910
00:33:22,295 --> 00:33:24,174
to her on the phone, and she had

911
00:33:24,174 --> 00:33:26,674
no interest in talking to me. Female warden.

912
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,179
The female warden. Yes. Oh, and the female

913
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:30,740
warden,

914
00:33:31,679 --> 00:33:33,140
she is a very fascinating

915
00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:34,339
person.

916
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,579
She was also threatened by the guards,

917
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,299
ended up getting a gun

918
00:33:40,005 --> 00:33:42,964
to protect herself. She was I think during

919
00:33:42,964 --> 00:33:44,825
the trial when she was gonna go testify,

920
00:33:45,924 --> 00:33:47,144
on behalf of the state,

921
00:33:47,525 --> 00:33:49,845
she was on her way home and was

922
00:33:49,845 --> 00:33:50,904
run off the highway

923
00:33:52,259 --> 00:33:53,640
by one of the guards. So

924
00:33:54,180 --> 00:33:56,340
she was very much complicit in that she

925
00:33:56,340 --> 00:33:58,340
turned a blind eye and she knew what

926
00:33:58,340 --> 00:34:00,500
was going on and she did nothing, nothing,

927
00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:01,000
nothing.

928
00:34:01,940 --> 00:34:03,160
At the same time,

929
00:34:04,434 --> 00:34:06,215
she's the warden and

930
00:34:06,674 --> 00:34:08,275
she has a gun to protect herself from

931
00:34:08,275 --> 00:34:10,755
the guards that are raping these women. I

932
00:34:10,755 --> 00:34:12,215
cold called the

933
00:34:12,675 --> 00:34:14,295
attorney for the state

934
00:34:15,235 --> 00:34:16,855
who was in

935
00:34:17,155 --> 00:34:17,655
every

936
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:19,289
single day of

937
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:22,869
two trials and all of the deposition videos

938
00:34:22,869 --> 00:34:23,690
that I have.

939
00:34:24,309 --> 00:34:25,369
And he said,

940
00:34:25,670 --> 00:34:26,329
you know,

941
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:29,449
I wasn't really that involved in that

942
00:34:29,909 --> 00:34:30,409
lawsuit.

943
00:34:31,325 --> 00:34:33,325
I just mostly filed some paperwork. And it

944
00:34:33,325 --> 00:34:35,184
was just like, really? Because

945
00:34:35,885 --> 00:34:36,704
I'm watching

946
00:34:37,085 --> 00:34:39,184
eighty five hours of footage of you.

947
00:34:40,525 --> 00:34:41,825
So it's interesting,

948
00:34:42,925 --> 00:34:45,485
either it was a lie or in order

949
00:34:45,485 --> 00:34:45,985
to

950
00:34:46,449 --> 00:34:48,949
protect himself emotionally, his brain

951
00:34:49,329 --> 00:34:51,110
shut out some things,

952
00:34:51,969 --> 00:34:53,110
some bad things.

953
00:34:53,890 --> 00:34:55,190
I'm gonna keep trying

954
00:34:55,730 --> 00:34:57,110
to get some of these people

955
00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:58,130
on the phone,

956
00:34:58,690 --> 00:35:00,230
in person for interviews.

957
00:35:00,530 --> 00:35:02,494
You know? It's it's it's shameful.

958
00:35:02,795 --> 00:35:03,694
Have you felt

959
00:35:04,315 --> 00:35:07,134
in jeopardy at all? Has anyone threatened you?

960
00:35:08,554 --> 00:35:09,054
No.

961
00:35:09,914 --> 00:35:12,255
No. Well, no. You know, it's been

962
00:35:13,355 --> 00:35:14,494
so many years.

963
00:35:15,579 --> 00:35:18,059
I I know that the attorneys were especially

964
00:35:18,059 --> 00:35:20,699
the female attorney, she was threatened during the

965
00:35:20,699 --> 00:35:22,859
during the trial a number of times. Her

966
00:35:22,859 --> 00:35:23,839
family was threatened.

967
00:35:24,139 --> 00:35:25,440
Her car was keyed.

968
00:35:26,219 --> 00:35:26,880
She was

969
00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:28,000
molested

970
00:35:28,780 --> 00:35:31,114
during a pat down on the way into

971
00:35:31,494 --> 00:35:32,155
the prison.

972
00:35:32,614 --> 00:35:34,315
She and my stepdad were

973
00:35:34,855 --> 00:35:36,315
put into a cell,

974
00:35:36,614 --> 00:35:39,494
and they locked the cell for hours just

975
00:35:39,494 --> 00:35:41,594
as a joke, or to intimidation,

976
00:35:41,894 --> 00:35:42,394
maybe.

977
00:35:42,819 --> 00:35:44,119
There's so many interesting

978
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:45,000
pieces

979
00:35:45,460 --> 00:35:46,440
to this story.

980
00:35:46,739 --> 00:35:47,239
One

981
00:35:48,339 --> 00:35:51,619
that I was excited to talk about was

982
00:35:51,619 --> 00:35:53,400
the judge. This trial

983
00:35:53,699 --> 00:35:56,420
completely changed his life and what he did

984
00:35:56,420 --> 00:35:56,920
thereafter.

985
00:35:58,255 --> 00:36:01,534
It was such a painful experience for everyone

986
00:36:01,534 --> 00:36:02,034
involved.

987
00:36:02,574 --> 00:36:04,655
Obviously the most painful for the women that

988
00:36:04,655 --> 00:36:05,875
had to relive,

989
00:36:06,175 --> 00:36:08,414
come and relive their experiences and hear that,

990
00:36:08,414 --> 00:36:10,255
oh, I'm not the only one. This is

991
00:36:10,255 --> 00:36:10,755
like,

992
00:36:11,529 --> 00:36:13,549
I'm now having to hear my friends' experiences.

993
00:36:14,409 --> 00:36:14,909
But

994
00:36:15,449 --> 00:36:16,269
the judge

995
00:36:16,650 --> 00:36:17,150
was

996
00:36:18,809 --> 00:36:21,309
just so changed by this,

997
00:36:22,170 --> 00:36:23,150
I think politically

998
00:36:24,170 --> 00:36:25,230
and spiritually.

999
00:36:28,135 --> 00:36:28,954
And he

1000
00:36:29,574 --> 00:36:31,114
said he would come home

1001
00:36:31,494 --> 00:36:32,795
he couldn't show emotion.

1002
00:36:33,655 --> 00:36:35,174
And he would come home at night and

1003
00:36:35,174 --> 00:36:37,094
I got to interview his wife as well.

1004
00:36:37,255 --> 00:36:39,255
And he would curl up into a fetal

1005
00:36:39,255 --> 00:36:39,755
position

1006
00:36:41,339 --> 00:36:43,339
and cry until he fell asleep and she

1007
00:36:43,339 --> 00:36:44,699
had to hold him every night of the

1008
00:36:44,699 --> 00:36:45,199
trial.

1009
00:36:45,579 --> 00:36:46,079
And

1010
00:36:46,539 --> 00:36:48,880
after the trial, he said, this

1011
00:36:49,659 --> 00:36:51,659
there has to be a better way. We

1012
00:36:51,659 --> 00:36:52,880
cannot conduct

1013
00:36:53,974 --> 00:36:55,515
our legal system

1014
00:36:55,974 --> 00:36:56,715
like this.

1015
00:36:57,094 --> 00:36:58,715
So he started to

1016
00:36:59,094 --> 00:37:03,034
seek out and educate himself on indigenous practices

1017
00:37:04,695 --> 00:37:06,795
with as it pertains to

1018
00:37:08,059 --> 00:37:11,599
trials and courts. And so he became friendly

1019
00:37:11,659 --> 00:37:13,440
with some tribal court justices

1020
00:37:14,460 --> 00:37:15,119
in Michigan

1021
00:37:15,820 --> 00:37:18,159
and started learning about the circle.

1022
00:37:19,340 --> 00:37:22,324
It wouldn't necessarily be the trial that took

1023
00:37:22,324 --> 00:37:24,264
place during the Neal versus MDOC,

1024
00:37:24,565 --> 00:37:26,904
the Michigan Department of Corrections, but

1025
00:37:27,684 --> 00:37:30,804
for, like, for those women who got to

1026
00:37:30,804 --> 00:37:32,184
prison in the first place,

1027
00:37:32,644 --> 00:37:33,304
it would

1028
00:37:33,924 --> 00:37:36,599
or men or whoever commits a crime, you

1029
00:37:36,599 --> 00:37:39,420
come to a healing circle in a courtroom.

1030
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:40,940
And

1031
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:41,900
you have

1032
00:37:42,279 --> 00:37:44,920
the person who committed the alleged crime and

1033
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:45,579
the victim,

1034
00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:48,139
and you have a meal together

1035
00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:49,099
before,

1036
00:37:49,625 --> 00:37:51,385
and you're able to go around and say

1037
00:37:51,385 --> 00:37:53,164
how this affected you, how

1038
00:37:53,545 --> 00:37:54,684
it impacted you,

1039
00:37:55,704 --> 00:37:56,684
and what you

1040
00:37:56,984 --> 00:37:58,764
want to do going forward.

1041
00:37:59,864 --> 00:38:01,944
And you're both able the person who committed

1042
00:38:01,944 --> 00:38:03,864
the crime is able to bring people from

1043
00:38:03,864 --> 00:38:05,085
their life to

1044
00:38:05,670 --> 00:38:08,089
talk about who they are in their community

1045
00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:12,170
and what the loss of them would do

1046
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:13,130
to their community

1047
00:38:13,429 --> 00:38:16,170
and how they're going to support this person

1048
00:38:16,789 --> 00:38:17,929
in doing better

1049
00:38:18,309 --> 00:38:19,530
and not

1050
00:38:20,234 --> 00:38:21,534
committing further crimes.

1051
00:38:22,315 --> 00:38:25,594
It's very interesting. His courtroom now, we actually

1052
00:38:25,594 --> 00:38:28,954
filmed the day before he retired, so everything

1053
00:38:28,954 --> 00:38:30,474
came down, like the night

1054
00:38:30,954 --> 00:38:33,275
the second our cameras stopped rolling. Everything came

1055
00:38:33,275 --> 00:38:34,815
down off the walls, but

1056
00:38:35,329 --> 00:38:36,230
for the last

1057
00:38:38,210 --> 00:38:40,849
fifteen years, this courtroom has been now set

1058
00:38:40,849 --> 00:38:43,090
up as a circle. There's no hierarchy. He's

1059
00:38:43,090 --> 00:38:43,989
not sitting

1060
00:38:44,530 --> 00:38:47,570
up where the judge sits. There's no box

1061
00:38:47,570 --> 00:38:48,789
for a test testimony.

1062
00:38:49,489 --> 00:38:51,030
Everybody's equal and

1063
00:38:51,545 --> 00:38:52,045
everybody

1064
00:38:52,345 --> 00:38:54,905
comes and and sees each other as humans.

1065
00:38:54,905 --> 00:38:56,845
Because he he saw this experience

1066
00:38:57,224 --> 00:38:59,005
and this way of dehumanizing

1067
00:38:59,305 --> 00:39:00,925
people in the court system,

1068
00:39:01,305 --> 00:39:03,164
and he wanted a change. So

1069
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:06,880
another thing that came out of the determination

1070
00:39:08,059 --> 00:39:08,559
of

1071
00:39:08,940 --> 00:39:10,639
these women, these plaintiffs,

1072
00:39:11,339 --> 00:39:13,980
to come and tell their story and to

1073
00:39:13,980 --> 00:39:15,359
go through that horror,

1074
00:39:16,304 --> 00:39:17,045
it changed

1075
00:39:17,824 --> 00:39:18,324
something,

1076
00:39:18,625 --> 00:39:21,025
at least for this person and everybody who

1077
00:39:21,025 --> 00:39:22,864
came through his court afterwards. That's a big

1078
00:39:22,864 --> 00:39:25,184
deal. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big deal. They,

1079
00:39:25,184 --> 00:39:26,724
they, they changed

1080
00:39:27,184 --> 00:39:27,684
everything

1081
00:39:28,224 --> 00:39:31,264
for women prisoners in Michigan that came after

1082
00:39:31,264 --> 00:39:31,764
them.

1083
00:39:32,460 --> 00:39:35,599
And they changed a fundamental part of this

1084
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:36,400
courthouse.

1085
00:39:37,019 --> 00:39:39,420
Knowing the story and being intimate with it

1086
00:39:39,420 --> 00:39:42,480
and being in so much awe of

1087
00:39:43,019 --> 00:39:45,659
the women that stood up for themselves and

1088
00:39:45,659 --> 00:39:48,494
for other women and for their lawyers. It's

1089
00:39:48,494 --> 00:39:48,994
so

1090
00:39:49,775 --> 00:39:50,275
important

1091
00:39:50,894 --> 00:39:52,894
that I help get this out there so

1092
00:39:52,894 --> 00:39:54,355
that it not only

1093
00:39:54,815 --> 00:39:55,315
can

1094
00:39:55,934 --> 00:39:56,434
motivate

1095
00:39:56,815 --> 00:39:57,554
or inspire

1096
00:39:58,094 --> 00:39:58,594
another

1097
00:39:59,909 --> 00:40:00,409
woman,

1098
00:40:01,989 --> 00:40:02,489
incarcerated

1099
00:40:02,789 --> 00:40:06,409
woman or formerly incarcerated woman or man, but

1100
00:40:06,469 --> 00:40:09,190
anyone who is feeling like they don't have

1101
00:40:09,190 --> 00:40:09,849
a voice

1102
00:40:10,389 --> 00:40:12,789
and they are marginalized and there is nobody's

1103
00:40:12,789 --> 00:40:14,010
gonna believe them,

1104
00:40:14,434 --> 00:40:14,934
These

1105
00:40:15,235 --> 00:40:15,735
people

1106
00:40:16,114 --> 00:40:17,574
did it, and it took

1107
00:40:17,875 --> 00:40:18,855
a long time,

1108
00:40:19,635 --> 00:40:21,635
but it was a watershed moment and a

1109
00:40:21,635 --> 00:40:23,335
landmark case. And it was,

1110
00:40:23,875 --> 00:40:26,675
in my opinion, one of the most major

1111
00:40:26,675 --> 00:40:27,735
civil rights victories

1112
00:40:28,195 --> 00:40:29,414
in our court system

1113
00:40:30,329 --> 00:40:31,309
in this century.

1114
00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:33,630
Tell people how they can watch

1115
00:40:34,329 --> 00:40:36,969
the documentary. How what's your process of finishing

1116
00:40:36,969 --> 00:40:37,630
it up?

1117
00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:40,809
Tell them how to find you, to follow

1118
00:40:40,809 --> 00:40:42,989
your career and what you're doing. Yeah.

1119
00:40:43,690 --> 00:40:44,750
AnnaRose official,

1120
00:40:45,755 --> 00:40:48,635
on Instagram. That's probably the easiest way.

1121
00:40:49,035 --> 00:40:51,675
You can you can watch my my short

1122
00:40:51,675 --> 00:40:52,175
film

1123
00:40:52,635 --> 00:40:53,135
there.

1124
00:40:53,594 --> 00:40:55,055
It's a comedy, so

1125
00:40:55,594 --> 00:40:56,155
it's literally

1126
00:40:58,474 --> 00:40:59,994
think about this tone and go to the

1127
00:40:59,994 --> 00:41:00,494
opposite.

1128
00:41:01,489 --> 00:41:04,130
But the documentary, I'll be updating my page

1129
00:41:04,130 --> 00:41:05,829
with information about the documentary.

1130
00:41:06,130 --> 00:41:08,389
We'll be going back to Michigan and doing

1131
00:41:08,769 --> 00:41:10,849
some more interviews. I think it's gonna be

1132
00:41:10,849 --> 00:41:11,510
a process,

1133
00:41:12,210 --> 00:41:14,389
the biggest process we're gonna be fundraising

1134
00:41:14,994 --> 00:41:17,734
soon. I have a sizzle reel that will

1135
00:41:17,795 --> 00:41:18,534
come out

1136
00:41:19,315 --> 00:41:22,034
probably in the next couple weeks or month,

1137
00:41:22,034 --> 00:41:23,714
and I'm not sure if I'm gonna share

1138
00:41:23,714 --> 00:41:24,855
that publicly.

1139
00:41:25,155 --> 00:41:27,414
It's more for for internal fundraising.

1140
00:41:27,875 --> 00:41:29,315
We we have to raise a little bit

1141
00:41:29,315 --> 00:41:29,974
more money.

1142
00:41:31,179 --> 00:41:33,659
And then the biggest chance challenge is going

1143
00:41:33,659 --> 00:41:35,440
to be working with

1144
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:39,019
the people who lived this experience and bringing

1145
00:41:39,019 --> 00:41:40,159
them into the process

1146
00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:43,119
in a way where, you know, they

1147
00:41:43,579 --> 00:41:44,079
feel

1148
00:41:45,204 --> 00:41:45,704
respected

1149
00:41:46,244 --> 00:41:48,984
and where they feel like they have control

1150
00:41:49,045 --> 00:41:50,804
over the way that they're they wanna tell

1151
00:41:50,804 --> 00:41:53,224
their story, and those who don't wanna participate,

1152
00:41:53,444 --> 00:41:54,664
you know, I I

1153
00:41:55,844 --> 00:41:57,989
will do everything in my power to make

1154
00:41:57,989 --> 00:41:59,989
sure that they are not a part of

1155
00:41:59,989 --> 00:42:00,650
the documentary,

1156
00:42:01,510 --> 00:42:04,349
because I don't want to for some people,

1157
00:42:04,349 --> 00:42:04,550
they

1158
00:42:05,510 --> 00:42:08,150
not for many people, this even though it

1159
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:08,969
is an overwhelmingly

1160
00:42:09,269 --> 00:42:12,045
positive story, this is justice. This is real,

1161
00:42:12,045 --> 00:42:14,864
real justice that happened, which doesn't happen often.

1162
00:42:15,484 --> 00:42:16,304
It's still

1163
00:42:17,885 --> 00:42:19,585
part of a story that

1164
00:42:20,045 --> 00:42:21,344
has so much pain.

1165
00:42:21,724 --> 00:42:23,025
In my research

1166
00:42:23,849 --> 00:42:27,550
currently about trauma. Just being reminded of that

1167
00:42:27,769 --> 00:42:29,550
can can sometimes be really harmful.

1168
00:42:29,849 --> 00:42:30,670
It's a dance.

1169
00:42:30,970 --> 00:42:32,269
I've had to get a therapist

1170
00:42:32,890 --> 00:42:35,450
to kinda help me navigate this too. It's

1171
00:42:35,450 --> 00:42:36,989
pretty emotional and

1172
00:42:37,454 --> 00:42:39,614
hard. Have you ever heard of a sin

1173
00:42:39,614 --> 00:42:41,315
eater? No. Tell me.

1174
00:42:42,575 --> 00:42:44,655
The concept of a sin eater is,

1175
00:42:45,135 --> 00:42:46,434
I'm not sure which

1176
00:42:47,135 --> 00:42:49,934
culture started it. It it it's probably Gaelic

1177
00:42:49,934 --> 00:42:51,954
or something. It seems like a Gaelic thing,

1178
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,160
but I might be wrong. But the idea

1179
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,079
is that there's a person that is brought

1180
00:42:56,079 --> 00:42:56,579
in

1181
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,300
to the bedside of someone who's dying,

1182
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:00,500
and they

1183
00:43:01,519 --> 00:43:04,640
basically eat the sin, absolve the the person

1184
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:05,140
of

1185
00:43:05,664 --> 00:43:08,545
whatever might keep them from their great reward,

1186
00:43:08,545 --> 00:43:09,605
as you might say.

1187
00:43:10,224 --> 00:43:12,484
They're called sin eaters. And in a way

1188
00:43:13,025 --> 00:43:13,525
Wow.

1189
00:43:14,065 --> 00:43:15,344
You're you're like a

1190
00:43:17,664 --> 00:43:18,804
you've, like, transmuted

1191
00:43:20,460 --> 00:43:23,199
the sin of the violence against women into

1192
00:43:23,340 --> 00:43:23,840
something

1193
00:43:25,179 --> 00:43:26,000
more powerful.

1194
00:43:26,380 --> 00:43:27,199
It's into

1195
00:43:27,980 --> 00:43:30,559
the soul, the the the zeitgeist soul.

1196
00:43:31,594 --> 00:43:34,315
Because I think that through healing of others,

1197
00:43:34,315 --> 00:43:35,534
we too are healed.

1198
00:43:36,154 --> 00:43:36,654
And

1199
00:43:37,755 --> 00:43:39,534
when there's such great atrocities

1200
00:43:39,835 --> 00:43:40,335
happening

1201
00:43:40,714 --> 00:43:41,375
en masse,

1202
00:43:42,154 --> 00:43:43,454
it ripples out energetically.

1203
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:45,260
Whatever

1204
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,519
exists around the prisons where these things happen

1205
00:43:48,519 --> 00:43:50,440
or in the families or it's all it's

1206
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:50,940
exponential.

1207
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,820
And so by telling this story

1208
00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:55,659
and in some way releasing

1209
00:43:56,119 --> 00:43:56,860
this pain

1210
00:43:57,664 --> 00:43:59,664
and allowing others to carry some of the

1211
00:43:59,664 --> 00:44:01,445
burden of it, the viewers.

1212
00:44:02,144 --> 00:44:02,644
Right?

1213
00:44:02,945 --> 00:44:05,505
I think that it is it is creates

1214
00:44:05,505 --> 00:44:06,644
a really healing

1215
00:44:08,144 --> 00:44:08,644
thing.

1216
00:44:12,269 --> 00:44:14,609
Thank you for teaching me about that. I

1217
00:44:15,389 --> 00:44:17,489
that true it's my sincere

1218
00:44:18,029 --> 00:44:19,089
hope that

1219
00:44:20,589 --> 00:44:22,829
the only reason I want to put this

1220
00:44:22,829 --> 00:44:25,329
out there and to elevate these voices

1221
00:44:26,164 --> 00:44:26,664
is

1222
00:44:28,484 --> 00:44:30,585
for good and to

1223
00:44:31,284 --> 00:44:33,144
inspire, like I said, anyone

1224
00:44:33,605 --> 00:44:35,945
to rise up against what

1225
00:44:37,204 --> 00:44:39,784
those that are oppressing them and also to

1226
00:44:40,380 --> 00:44:41,519
give light to

1227
00:44:43,579 --> 00:44:45,679
you and I know our prison system is

1228
00:44:45,819 --> 00:44:48,139
so fucked up on so many levels. And

1229
00:44:48,139 --> 00:44:48,799
I think

1230
00:44:49,179 --> 00:44:49,920
when we

1231
00:44:50,539 --> 00:44:53,599
typically think about an incarcerated person,

1232
00:44:55,484 --> 00:44:58,125
the picture that a lot of people have

1233
00:44:58,125 --> 00:45:00,144
in their head is of a man.

1234
00:45:02,204 --> 00:45:03,664
And which is fine.

1235
00:45:03,964 --> 00:45:06,444
Men are incarcerated and men don't deserve any

1236
00:45:06,444 --> 00:45:10,099
of the atrocities committed against them in prisons.

1237
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:11,700
But

1238
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:13,539
I think

1239
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,440
what if collectively we were thinking about these

1240
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:17,940
mothers

1241
00:45:19,039 --> 00:45:21,760
getting taken, these daughters, these sisters who are

1242
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:22,260
being

1243
00:45:23,424 --> 00:45:25,204
raped by men in

1244
00:45:25,585 --> 00:45:28,704
prisons and, and watched. They're not just that,

1245
00:45:28,704 --> 00:45:29,204
but

1246
00:45:29,905 --> 00:45:30,644
they have

1247
00:45:31,905 --> 00:45:33,204
no sense of

1248
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:37,840
self or privacy when they're being dressed, when

1249
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,800
they're dressing and undressing, they're being watched by

1250
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:42,660
men. They were in Michigan

1251
00:45:43,039 --> 00:45:44,660
up until this case happened.

1252
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,460
When they're showering, they're being watched

1253
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:48,500
by men.

1254
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:49,780
Open door.

1255
00:45:50,465 --> 00:45:51,684
Men had to

1256
00:45:52,784 --> 00:45:55,025
do 20 pat downs a day. They got

1257
00:45:55,025 --> 00:45:57,425
to decide who and when they could break

1258
00:45:57,425 --> 00:45:58,965
you up in the middle of the night.

1259
00:45:59,664 --> 00:46:01,585
And there was no training for these pop

1260
00:46:01,585 --> 00:46:03,284
bombs, so they were just

1261
00:46:03,985 --> 00:46:04,485
groping,

1262
00:46:06,970 --> 00:46:09,450
putting their fingers in places that they should

1263
00:46:09,450 --> 00:46:10,349
not have been.

1264
00:46:11,130 --> 00:46:13,230
Such a deeply traumatic

1265
00:46:13,610 --> 00:46:14,110
environment.

1266
00:46:15,050 --> 00:46:15,550
And

1267
00:46:16,650 --> 00:46:17,869
I'm just hoping

1268
00:46:18,250 --> 00:46:21,150
to add another layer to how we collectively

1269
00:46:22,065 --> 00:46:23,664
understand what is going on in our prison

1270
00:46:23,664 --> 00:46:26,625
system. You're bearing witness, and therefore, we will

1271
00:46:26,625 --> 00:46:27,284
bear witness.

1272
00:46:27,824 --> 00:46:29,204
When I was interviewing

1273
00:46:29,744 --> 00:46:30,644
one of the plaintiffs,

1274
00:46:31,184 --> 00:46:32,565
in November in Michigan,

1275
00:46:34,110 --> 00:46:35,250
Such an incredibly

1276
00:46:35,869 --> 00:46:36,369
strong

1277
00:46:36,829 --> 00:46:37,890
person. These

1278
00:46:38,590 --> 00:46:40,430
these women, I'm in awe of them, and

1279
00:46:40,430 --> 00:46:42,190
I I think, you know, knowing so much

1280
00:46:42,190 --> 00:46:44,269
about them and researching them for so long

1281
00:46:44,269 --> 00:46:45,890
and getting to interview them,

1282
00:46:46,190 --> 00:46:47,730
sometimes I I,

1283
00:46:48,190 --> 00:46:49,490
you know, feel like

1284
00:46:49,864 --> 00:46:51,724
like I'm knit next to a celebrity.

1285
00:46:52,664 --> 00:46:54,105
Because for me, I've been living with this

1286
00:46:54,105 --> 00:46:55,144
story for so long,

1287
00:46:55,784 --> 00:46:56,844
and I'm intimidated.

1288
00:46:57,704 --> 00:46:59,005
But she's still

1289
00:46:59,304 --> 00:47:02,424
powerful and just she knows herself so well.

1290
00:47:02,424 --> 00:47:03,324
And she said,

1291
00:47:05,789 --> 00:47:07,090
After a painful interview

1292
00:47:07,950 --> 00:47:09,809
that was so beautifully done,

1293
00:47:10,670 --> 00:47:11,410
she said,

1294
00:47:12,829 --> 00:47:14,210
I wasn't gonna come today.

1295
00:47:15,470 --> 00:47:16,690
I was really debating,

1296
00:47:17,974 --> 00:47:18,474
and

1297
00:47:19,335 --> 00:47:21,255
I was on the fence, and my daughter

1298
00:47:21,255 --> 00:47:23,434
said, my 14 year old daughter said,

1299
00:47:23,815 --> 00:47:24,315
mom,

1300
00:47:24,695 --> 00:47:26,235
you gotta go tell your story.

1301
00:47:27,494 --> 00:47:30,054
She said, I am here because I want

1302
00:47:30,054 --> 00:47:31,574
her to know how to stand up for

1303
00:47:31,574 --> 00:47:32,074
herself.

1304
00:47:32,519 --> 00:47:35,420
I am so proud of what we did.

1305
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,320
Nobody thought we were gonna win. Nobody believed

1306
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:39,820
us.

1307
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:42,780
I am so proud.

1308
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,179
We changed the system.

1309
00:47:47,795 --> 00:47:48,295
So

1310
00:47:51,394 --> 00:47:52,375
hearing that

1311
00:47:53,875 --> 00:47:56,375
after, after that interview, I was like, okay,

1312
00:47:56,594 --> 00:47:58,434
this is, this is I'm on the right

1313
00:47:58,434 --> 00:48:00,434
course. This is the right thing. This is

1314
00:48:00,434 --> 00:48:01,174
my sign.

1315
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:03,130
Yeah.

1316
00:48:03,590 --> 00:48:05,050
I get emotional too.

1317
00:48:05,989 --> 00:48:08,070
Oh, it's tough out there. We are in

1318
00:48:08,070 --> 00:48:10,869
a crisis of humanity, and it's good to

1319
00:48:10,869 --> 00:48:13,050
know that there are still people fighting,

1320
00:48:13,974 --> 00:48:15,894
you know, for the right Yeah. For the

1321
00:48:15,894 --> 00:48:18,295
right thing and on the right side. I

1322
00:48:18,295 --> 00:48:20,635
don't know what the great cosmic plan is,

1323
00:48:21,175 --> 00:48:23,014
but I do think there's a reason that

1324
00:48:23,014 --> 00:48:24,775
you sat on a plane next to someone

1325
00:48:24,775 --> 00:48:26,699
that told you to do a thing, and

1326
00:48:26,699 --> 00:48:29,019
that that thing begat another thing, and then

1327
00:48:29,019 --> 00:48:31,579
that thing begat another thing. There are no

1328
00:48:31,579 --> 00:48:32,079
accidents.

1329
00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:33,839
Those women

1330
00:48:34,380 --> 00:48:34,880
incarcerated

1331
00:48:35,179 --> 00:48:36,400
going through that hell

1332
00:48:36,940 --> 00:48:39,420
experienced something that I would not wish on

1333
00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:42,775
my worst enemy, and yet because of their

1334
00:48:42,775 --> 00:48:43,275
endurance

1335
00:48:43,894 --> 00:48:44,555
of that,

1336
00:48:45,414 --> 00:48:46,954
they changed everything.

1337
00:48:48,215 --> 00:48:49,355
And I can't

1338
00:48:49,815 --> 00:48:52,715
maybe that's this little naivete of hoping that

1339
00:48:52,855 --> 00:48:55,335
if there is a greater power, which I

1340
00:48:55,335 --> 00:48:56,235
believe in,

1341
00:48:56,619 --> 00:48:59,440
that Yeah. We suffer on Earth

1342
00:49:00,539 --> 00:49:02,539
in order to be of service to our

1343
00:49:02,539 --> 00:49:03,039
fellow

1344
00:49:03,659 --> 00:49:04,159
human.

1345
00:49:04,940 --> 00:49:07,420
Because I can't otherwise make any kind of

1346
00:49:07,420 --> 00:49:10,385
sense of it. Why do children and why

1347
00:49:10,385 --> 00:49:11,744
do people you know what I mean? I

1348
00:49:11,744 --> 00:49:13,684
I don't get there's no other thing.

1349
00:49:14,144 --> 00:49:15,664
And I'd like to say God can be

1350
00:49:15,664 --> 00:49:16,565
a real dick,

1351
00:49:16,864 --> 00:49:18,625
but at the same time, I think it's

1352
00:49:18,625 --> 00:49:20,864
more like God gave us free will and

1353
00:49:20,864 --> 00:49:23,184
we're we can be a real dick. But

1354
00:49:23,184 --> 00:49:24,405
that in our suffering,

1355
00:49:25,110 --> 00:49:27,590
good things can still happen. I I choose

1356
00:49:27,590 --> 00:49:30,010
to believe that in order to survive

1357
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:32,490
just in general. You know?

1358
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:35,750
I yeah. I I really can relate. I

1359
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:36,230
think,

1360
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:38,329
about a year ago

1361
00:49:38,704 --> 00:49:40,625
with everything going on in the world, I

1362
00:49:40,625 --> 00:49:43,264
was in a dark place, and I started

1363
00:49:43,425 --> 00:49:44,804
that's when I started to

1364
00:49:45,105 --> 00:49:46,244
find more spirituality,

1365
00:49:46,784 --> 00:49:48,885
which I hadn't really been

1366
00:49:49,344 --> 00:49:50,485
open to before.

1367
00:49:53,150 --> 00:49:53,650
But,

1368
00:49:54,989 --> 00:49:57,389
yeah, I I I agree with you, and

1369
00:49:57,389 --> 00:49:58,049
I think,

1370
00:49:58,670 --> 00:50:01,869
like, in the current reality of what we're

1371
00:50:01,869 --> 00:50:05,170
seeing happen, play out in our country, like,

1372
00:50:05,724 --> 00:50:07,885
part of me looking at this story, for

1373
00:50:07,885 --> 00:50:09,824
example, and, like, everything that

1374
00:50:10,684 --> 00:50:12,385
you uncovered in your work,

1375
00:50:12,844 --> 00:50:14,944
talking with people and researching,

1376
00:50:15,724 --> 00:50:18,125
like, you and I know how fucked up

1377
00:50:18,125 --> 00:50:20,809
the prison system is. Like, our systems right

1378
00:50:20,809 --> 00:50:23,530
now are getting fucked up, but things have

1379
00:50:23,530 --> 00:50:25,050
been fucked up. They've been fucked up, and

1380
00:50:25,050 --> 00:50:26,570
they make people a whole lot of money.

1381
00:50:26,570 --> 00:50:28,909
There are certain you know, the prison industrial

1382
00:50:29,050 --> 00:50:30,269
complex, the privatization

1383
00:50:30,730 --> 00:50:31,630
of our prison

1384
00:50:32,170 --> 00:50:32,670
has

1385
00:50:32,969 --> 00:50:34,190
created this

1386
00:50:36,025 --> 00:50:36,525
just

1387
00:50:37,224 --> 00:50:37,724
devil

1388
00:50:39,465 --> 00:50:41,405
that feeds on others pain

1389
00:50:42,264 --> 00:50:45,085
and is hopeful for recidivism.

1390
00:50:45,704 --> 00:50:48,980
That it doesn't want to make people better.

1391
00:50:48,980 --> 00:50:51,880
It's turning people into more of a monstrosity

1392
00:50:52,260 --> 00:50:54,820
of themselves in in order to ensure that

1393
00:50:54,820 --> 00:50:55,320
should

1394
00:50:55,859 --> 00:50:56,839
they get out,

1395
00:50:57,539 --> 00:50:59,639
they'll be back within no time.

1396
00:51:00,065 --> 00:51:02,724
That's the reality. We're taking away so many

1397
00:51:02,945 --> 00:51:03,445
vital

1398
00:51:03,905 --> 00:51:04,885
community members.

1399
00:51:05,585 --> 00:51:06,405
And each

1400
00:51:06,945 --> 00:51:09,684
person that you remove, it's like, you know,

1401
00:51:09,825 --> 00:51:11,285
each person of the universe,

1402
00:51:12,639 --> 00:51:14,880
you remove all of these people and you

1403
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:16,420
just strip these communities

1404
00:51:18,079 --> 00:51:20,320
of what they need. Like, you're wondering why

1405
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:20,980
a community

1406
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:21,599
isn't

1407
00:51:22,159 --> 00:51:23,840
like, you've taken so many people out of

1408
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,860
this community. Fathers were taken.

1409
00:51:26,235 --> 00:51:28,655
And that's the other thing too is that,

1410
00:51:29,434 --> 00:51:30,175
And mothers.

1411
00:51:30,474 --> 00:51:33,195
And mothers, for sure. If the money that

1412
00:51:33,195 --> 00:51:33,695
was

1413
00:51:34,394 --> 00:51:36,575
invested in drug rehabilitation

1414
00:51:37,195 --> 00:51:37,855
and education

1415
00:51:39,039 --> 00:51:40,480
I mean, this is also a tale of

1416
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,719
us all the time. We know what will

1417
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:43,219
work,

1418
00:51:43,759 --> 00:51:46,400
and yet it makes far more money for

1419
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:47,940
certain people to not

1420
00:51:49,119 --> 00:51:51,139
make those things happen. And so

1421
00:51:51,519 --> 00:51:52,420
here we are.

1422
00:51:52,985 --> 00:51:54,824
I think that there is also a sense

1423
00:51:54,824 --> 00:51:56,525
of, oh, that happens to them

1424
00:51:56,985 --> 00:51:57,885
and not me.

1425
00:51:58,184 --> 00:51:58,925
But eventually,

1426
00:52:00,025 --> 00:52:02,105
the powers that be run out of them

1427
00:52:02,105 --> 00:52:03,644
and will come for the me.

1428
00:52:04,184 --> 00:52:06,844
And that's something to be really aware of.

1429
00:52:07,299 --> 00:52:09,639
Yeah. And I think what what you're doing,

1430
00:52:10,019 --> 00:52:11,079
you're uplifting

1431
00:52:11,380 --> 00:52:11,880
humanity

1432
00:52:12,420 --> 00:52:13,719
through your podcast.

1433
00:52:14,099 --> 00:52:16,819
And, like, we find the things we can

1434
00:52:16,819 --> 00:52:17,319
do

1435
00:52:18,019 --> 00:52:19,000
in this moment.

1436
00:52:19,859 --> 00:52:20,359
Yes.

1437
00:52:20,795 --> 00:52:21,695
And and

1438
00:52:22,075 --> 00:52:23,114
that's all, like

1439
00:52:23,755 --> 00:52:26,635
It's exhausting work. It is. It's exhausting work,

1440
00:52:26,635 --> 00:52:28,815
but it's all like, I I feel

1441
00:52:29,355 --> 00:52:31,994
at least I'm doing this one thing. Yeah.

1442
00:52:31,994 --> 00:52:33,755
And at least here's a story of, like,

1443
00:52:33,755 --> 00:52:34,894
it was so dark,

1444
00:52:35,429 --> 00:52:37,929
and now it's not as dark. And maybe

1445
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:40,309
that can be applied to other places in

1446
00:52:40,309 --> 00:52:41,609
the world, you know?

1447
00:52:42,389 --> 00:52:42,889
Yes.

1448
00:52:43,349 --> 00:52:43,849
Absolutely.

1449
00:52:44,710 --> 00:52:45,929
The the pinprick

1450
00:52:46,230 --> 00:52:47,210
and the blackness

1451
00:52:47,510 --> 00:52:49,130
lets in a whole lot of light.

1452
00:52:50,335 --> 00:52:52,035
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

1453
00:52:52,815 --> 00:52:54,974
Thank you so much. I really thank you

1454
00:52:54,974 --> 00:52:57,775
thank you for bringing me on. Absolutely. It's

1455
00:52:57,775 --> 00:52:59,934
my honor. Such an honor. Thank you for

1456
00:52:59,934 --> 00:53:01,875
being on the planet and for

1457
00:53:02,809 --> 00:53:03,309
seeing

1458
00:53:03,690 --> 00:53:04,190
humans

1459
00:53:04,809 --> 00:53:05,550
as humanity.

1460
00:53:07,530 --> 00:53:09,389
I think that's a rare quality anymore.

1461
00:53:10,090 --> 00:53:11,690
So I appreciate it, and I see that

1462
00:53:11,690 --> 00:53:12,349
in you.

1463
00:53:14,010 --> 00:53:14,829
Well, I

1464
00:53:15,795 --> 00:53:16,534
thank you

1465
00:53:19,795 --> 00:53:22,454
for saying thank you for that. I appreciate

1466
00:53:22,514 --> 00:53:24,355
that. And I I do. And I I

1467
00:53:24,355 --> 00:53:25,714
think that's why I wanted to be an

1468
00:53:25,714 --> 00:53:28,375
artist to begin with is I I

1469
00:53:28,755 --> 00:53:29,414
I feel

1470
00:53:30,300 --> 00:53:31,680
pain of other people

1471
00:53:32,140 --> 00:53:33,360
and, wanna,

1472
00:53:34,699 --> 00:53:36,699
I wanna take that pain away, but also

1473
00:53:36,699 --> 00:53:38,480
want other people to,

1474
00:53:39,900 --> 00:53:40,400
like,

1475
00:53:41,820 --> 00:53:43,440
back to when I was doing the research

1476
00:53:43,579 --> 00:53:46,255
initially, I was like, if I can get

1477
00:53:46,255 --> 00:53:46,994
my audience

1478
00:53:47,295 --> 00:53:48,034
to feel

1479
00:53:48,335 --> 00:53:50,734
even 10% of what I am feeling right

1480
00:53:50,734 --> 00:53:51,234
now,

1481
00:53:51,695 --> 00:53:53,234
I think it can move the needle.

1482
00:53:54,094 --> 00:53:55,375
And I think I would have done my

1483
00:53:55,375 --> 00:53:55,875
job

1484
00:53:56,255 --> 00:53:58,734
because this is like this, this is earth

1485
00:53:58,734 --> 00:54:00,840
shattering. Everybody needs to know about this. This

1486
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,300
needs to be in the history book,

1487
00:54:02,599 --> 00:54:04,840
what these women were able to accomplish and

1488
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,180
what they went through. If just one person

1489
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,579
either changes their mind about something

1490
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,219
or goes out and does something in response

1491
00:54:13,105 --> 00:54:15,285
that is uplifting to the world at large,

1492
00:54:15,905 --> 00:54:17,125
we've done a great

1493
00:54:17,505 --> 00:54:18,405
we've done great.

1494
00:54:18,704 --> 00:54:20,385
Make sure that you take care of yourself

1495
00:54:20,385 --> 00:54:21,905
as well. I know you said you have

1496
00:54:21,905 --> 00:54:24,625
a therapist, which is good, but it's hard

1497
00:54:24,625 --> 00:54:25,765
to be a container

1498
00:54:26,065 --> 00:54:26,965
of this magnitude

1499
00:54:27,909 --> 00:54:29,130
without causing damage.

1500
00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:30,250
So

1501
00:54:30,789 --> 00:54:31,769
be kind to yourself

1502
00:54:32,070 --> 00:54:32,570
also.

1503
00:54:33,190 --> 00:54:35,510
Thank you for that. I really appreciate that,

1504
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:38,150
Susan. I, I've been reaching out to other

1505
00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:38,650
documentarians

1506
00:54:39,269 --> 00:54:40,730
and realizing that

1507
00:54:41,375 --> 00:54:43,214
no matter what the scope of the project

1508
00:54:43,214 --> 00:54:44,914
or what the project involves,

1509
00:54:45,855 --> 00:54:46,355
that

1510
00:54:46,894 --> 00:54:47,394
they

1511
00:54:48,094 --> 00:54:50,815
maybe it's not this kind of pain that

1512
00:54:50,815 --> 00:54:51,635
you're absorbing,

1513
00:54:52,094 --> 00:54:52,594
but

1514
00:54:53,809 --> 00:54:55,489
there there is a lot of pain and

1515
00:54:55,489 --> 00:54:56,230
you are

1516
00:54:56,690 --> 00:54:57,170
Yeah.

1517
00:54:57,650 --> 00:55:00,389
You are holding it and you're a receptacle

1518
00:55:00,610 --> 00:55:02,769
for it. So that's been helpful just to

1519
00:55:02,769 --> 00:55:04,849
have people to talk to. You get it.

1520
00:55:04,849 --> 00:55:06,469
It can be, I understand.

1521
00:55:06,994 --> 00:55:08,695
I think it's I hope it's worth it.

1522
00:55:08,994 --> 00:55:10,755
I think it is. I know we just

1523
00:55:10,755 --> 00:55:12,775
met. I I'm very proud of you.

1524
00:55:14,275 --> 00:55:17,094
I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity

1525
00:55:17,474 --> 00:55:20,195
to be here and giving this story the

1526
00:55:20,195 --> 00:55:20,695
platform,

1527
00:55:21,690 --> 00:55:24,409
truly. It's my honor. Thank you. Of course.

1528
00:55:24,409 --> 00:55:26,170
Thank you for being on the show, and

1529
00:55:26,170 --> 00:55:27,789
thank you for listening, everybody.

1530
00:55:28,170 --> 00:55:29,389
And please keep me

1531
00:55:30,170 --> 00:55:33,289
abreast of everything, and I wish you just

1532
00:55:33,289 --> 00:55:34,349
continued success.

1533
00:55:34,650 --> 00:55:36,190
Thank you so much.

1534
00:55:36,650 --> 00:55:37,150
Bye.

1535
00:55:37,514 --> 00:55:38,014
Bye.

1536
00:55:40,074 --> 00:55:42,494
Great. Review and subscribe to Hey Human podcast

1537
00:55:42,554 --> 00:55:45,194
on Apple iHeart, Spotify, or wherever you get

1538
00:55:45,194 --> 00:55:47,214
your podcast. Thanks. Bye.