Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here.
Thanks for listening to another episode
of Hey Human podcast.
This is episode 433,
and my guest is Lynn Yip. Lynn and
I met through my friend, Jake.
She and I met in real time last
summer, and I immediately loved her. She's really
cool, very smart, very fun.
She's Malaysian Chinese and has lived all over
the world. She currently resides in Paris.
She's a polyglot,
and she works in the sustainability
side of marketing with makers and artists.
Really fascinating
woman.
Love her to death. Really happy that she
said yes when I asked her to be
on the show.
In other news, check out heyhumanpodcast.com
for links and to learn more about my
guests and the show. Hey Human Podcast is
on YouTube under official Susan Ruth. I'm on
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is also susanruthism.
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Human podcast on iTunes or wherever you get
your podcasts, and thank you for listening.
Be well, be kind,
be loved. Here we go.
Lynn Yip, welcome to Hey Human.
Thank you, Susan.
It's lovely to see you.
Lovely to see you too. I'm I'm glad
we had this chance because I know you're
only visiting for a short while,
and I met you through my dear friend,
Jake, and you are his honey bunny love
love, and I adore Jake. Of course, I
adore you, and I've gotten to know you
a little bit while you've been here. Not
obviously, we haven't had a whole lot of
time together, but
a little bit. And I thought, you know
what? As long as you're in town, might
as well get you on the show. I
love that.
Yeah. Yeah. I'm it's an honor to be
here.
I love the show. I love the idea
of it. I love the, the philosophy of
it. And, you know, I feel like if
we lived the way the show is, it's
it would, you know, it just makes life
more beautiful.
Thank you. That's a big compliment. I appreciate
that. Well, let's jump in. Tell me
where you grew up, what shaped you as
a person?
I grew up in Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia.
And,
what shaped me as a person?
Well, that's a big question.
It was interesting because Malaysia is a country
that is we have a lot of different
cultures that we grew up with
and everybody has their place,
an allocated place in the country, and it's
not always comfortable, but it is somewhat
peaceful at the same time. What do you
mean by allocated place?
So Malaysia is made of 3 different ethnicities
and so 3 different main cultures. I mean,
there's more than 3, but the main cultures
are
the Malays who are
what they consider in the country, the people
of the land, and then the Chinese
who are considered immigrants
and because we are,
and the Indians from South India mostly,
and, who are also considered immigrants.
So it's a real, it's a really at
the same time, great mix
of cultures that are
very well integrated into one another.
Also, we feel our difference a lot because,
like, in the social political sense,
and somehow everyone just accepts
their position. Like the Malays have privilege.
This is a widely known thing and,
because we are considered to be outsiders.
But then we have known this for a
long time and we've kind of like lived
with it. They have, you know, it upsets
people to a certain point of feeling like
you're not being a part of where you're
from.
And, but at the same time, you find
it,
you
find your home in your own way.
It means something to you in your own
way. You interact
with it in your own way. You know,
you make your own relationship with it. There's
a big,
filmmaker, one of the biggest filmmakers in Malaysia.
I can't, you know, I'm just can't remember
her name now.
There are not many, actually. It's been like
many, many years.
And, and she said
she was, she was brilliant, and she made
a lot of movies about the culture, about
this topic, you know,
and she's fantastic. And she was
a trans woman.
And that was very, very
a big deal in Malaysia.
And she said being, being anything other than
Malay
in, in Malaysia is like being in love
with someone who's not in love with you.
Oh, wow. That's powerful.
Yeah. It is. And we live that way.
And Is it a caste systems
sort of,
or is it hierarchical?
Like, you can't get a certain job? Or
is it more the vibe? The the vibe
is actually pretty good. Like, people
individually with neighbors, with, you know, community,
the vibe is great. It's a, but in
terms of policies and
like certain laws, like you can't start a
business,
if you don't start one with a Malay
person or when they build a building like
the choice, like, for an apartment building, for
instance, like the choice places are, you know,
for, first of all, for the Malay then.
I feel like I haven't lived in Malaysia
for many years for almost 20 years. And
so, you know, I'm sure there's a lot
of things that are changing,
which is great, you know? And,
but what the beauty of Malaysia is that
we learn to live peacefully
with all of that, because
on a neighborly level,
on a relational level, on a friendship level,
we know that this is not a personal
thing,
you know, and we want to keep that
peace. We want to see
each other,
you know, as a person and individually. I
think a lot of people do. I grew
up in a home
with the Malays on the one side and
the Indian
neighbors on the other. And we shared everything.
Like our cultures, we celebrated all of each
other's holidays.
We never returned a Tupperware empty.
We, you know, things like that. And
so that was how I grew up. And
I grew up with a wonderful
house, like, a woman who took care of
us, like, you know, a home
and children. And I grew up with her
and she was my first friend. And
I, you know, and that was wonderful. And
I learned to cook with her. I learned
to play with her. And that was a
big part of our culture.
So going over the Himalayas? She's
Chinese. Chinese. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. And she had 10 children, and
she was our housekeeper and our nanny, and
she lived with us.
And she had 10 children. I didn't know
that growing up.
And she spent 5 days or 6 days
a week with us.
And well, she had 10 children to feed,
you know, and she didn't bring them up
because she was bringing me up. And that
was,
and that was the life that she had.
And that's an extraordinary life, isn't it? Did
you meet her children? Yeah.
I met
her daughter
a couple of years ago.
About
about 8 years ago.
I met her daughter after, because I lost
contact with her for many years.
And I told my father one day, I
said, you have to find her because she's
getting older. And
and I want to see her before, before,
you know, it's too late. And because she
had a falling out with my mother,
when I was like
13 or something.
And so I was not allowed to see
her for many years, and I said, I
have to find her. And so he found
her, and I met her daughter
for the first time, and that's how I
knew she had 10 children.
Her daughter had bought a house. So she
grew up and, you know, she had a
good life. And she bought
her house next to herself.
So she lived next to her daughter with
a 3 legged dog.
And
it was lovely.
And I went to see them and her
daughter said to me, oh, you know, like,
she was so kind and, and so wonderful.
And throughout the course of the conversation, I
realized that, that she had 10 children and
her daughter had grown up without her mother
because her mother had brought me up. And
she was so
generous and so kind. There was not a
single ounce of resentment or anything like that,
you know.
And she treated me as if I was
family. She was like, oh, you know, of
course, like,
I would I mean, I can't wrap my
head around that. So was your family a
family of means then? So that was sort
of the way that works? No.
It's a very middle class thing in Malaysia
to have that, actually. It's in I guess
it's we were comfortable, I guess,
maybe upper middle class. You know, you never
really understand,
wealth or the lack of it when you're
a child.
I guess now when I think about it,
I think about the stuff that my mom
had as a woman and I was like,
well, I can't afford that. I was like,
maybe, maybe we were doing alright, you know.
The Malaysian
culture, does it allow for marriage between Malaysians
and Chinese or Malaysians and Indians? Or is
that a no no?
Yeah, the Malay,
yeah, Malays can marry anybody, as long asMalays
do not have freedom of religion,
of faith. So they have to be Muslim.
Malaysia is a Muslim country, but only for
the Malays. So they don't have a choice
but to be Muslim. And so if you
were to marry into a traditional Malay family,
you have to convert. And if you don't
convert,
I don't think they actually give you the
marriage
license. I don't think you're allowed to. Some
people, they fall in love and they leave
the country. And they so they can be
or some people just convert because, you know,
like they say,
if you don't believe,
then, you know, like, baptism is just some
water in your head.
Sure. You know? And so it doesn't really
matter. And a lot of people do that.
They just do it so that they can
be accepted by society,
accepted by the family, tend to be together.
When rules exist like this in a country,
do you find
that the young people
are bucking against it? Or do you think
in
that part of the world, they just go
along to get along?
I think a lot of people go along
to get along. And they not just
that, I think some people really integrate it.
They really embrace it and they find
their they find purpose and meaning in it
in order
to survive. They don't live it as a
lack of freedom. They live it as duty
and honor
and values
as well, you know?
And there are some who
just can't stand it and they leave or
they're against it, or they make their own
lives and
they go against that,
you know,
they stand up for what they believe and
they choose
a more difficult life. I have a friend
who did that. And it's not between
a Malay and anybody else, it's between the
Chinese and Indian, because there's also that there's
a lot of
racism,
you know,
for to call it what it is. And
as well, there's a lot of othering and,
an intolerance of difference and class,
like, consciousness,
I guess,
divides.
And I have a friend who came from
a very, very wealthy family and
she fell in love with a kind of
rock star musician,
Indian guy that she just loves, and and
she just gave it all up. And she
moved to Australia.
To be with him? I'm gonna do this.
Yeah. She's I don't care if you you're
okay with it or not. I'm I love
this man, and I'm gonna and that's why
it's gonna you know? That's really interesting. The
overall culture is a particular thing that has
subculture within it. And then within those subcultures,
there's also very strict
ideology
and
decision making
that is
not
autonomous.
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There, you know, where I
come from,
the,
the whole idea of community
and the other, the next person, the person
in front of you and around around you
is a big deal.
We do that is a good thing and
a not so good thing.
You know,
it can, it can create really a really
good life because you, humans, I feel, are
very community
based,
you know, animals. And,
we need, it takes a village.
And, you know, we do,
we seek family and community,
and that's very strong where I come from.
But there are also there's also a lot
of intolerance and rules in community that communities
are often afraid of difference, afraid of nonconformity.
Were you raised as a Chinese person? Were
you raised Buddhist? Or what was your faith
growing up?
I was I was Protestant.
My parents were very religious. Oh, wow. Okay.
That throws me for a loop. Okay.
Yeah. But within,
yeah, but within the family, within my family,
like extended family, because extended family is a
big thing. Like they have say,
and we used to spend our weekends,
at, on Saturdays, it would be at
my grandparents' house on my mother's side. And
on Sunday, Sunday dinner
at the grandparents' house on my father's side,
because that's the prime day. It's like eat,
drink, man, woman. I think that story, that
movie was about the girls going home to
have dinner with their father, right? Every Sunday
or something. And it's a, it really is
a thing. And so the extended family was
Buddhist, but also culturally Buddhist and by Buddhist
by some sort of traditional practice.
It's not really, and it's not the Buddhism
that you see in yoga studios here, you
know, it's, it's very much based on ancestral
worship,
the idea of prosperity. There was not, I
never heard a lot of
Buddhist philosophy
come out of those things. We had altars
at home and food that was offered to
the ancestors on the altars and that kind
of Buddhism.
And my parents
became very, very
stout
Protestants.
I think because they were,
they got into
the church because of Sunday School, because Sunday
School is essentially,
now that I've grown up and realized it,
free childcare
over the weekends.
Right? Makes sense.
Yeah. And so, so they got into it
and they found a lot of meaning in
it. And that was,
that was how I was brought up. It
was
it was not my my favorite experience.
Well, I was just gonna ask you about
that. So how does one
growing up in a place where identity sounds
pretty important all around.
How does one develop one's sense of self?
Oh, interesting.
You don't.
It's not
I know it sounds a little crazy, but
it's not, that's not the first thing on
the menu, you know,
because it's all about community and duty
and being
a good something to somebody.
That's,
I hope I'm not,
as I'm saying this, I hope I'm not
making a caricature,
you know, in my, you know, for in
my head, in my own head. But that's
somehow
I feel that,
that the sense of self is not the
first thing
on the agenda.
The, you know, it's about,
it's about being a good person,
a good daughter, a good son, a good
wife or a good husband,
and then a good parent, a good worker,
a good homemaker.
That's,
the identity is based on roles.
I learned very late in life
to
develop a sense of self.
And, but everybody has it naturally, obviously. And
you live with that existential
loneliness
of, you know, kind of wandering
the desert of that, you know,
and then like coming upon things that define
you as like, as if you're blind and
you're in a room and you're trying to
figure out
what
the environment is by kind of like feeling
around in the dark. And that's what it
felt like trying to find myself,
a sense of self anyway.
When do you think your first
moment was then of discovering who you are?
Wow. It was so late.
I think it was super recent. It was
maybe,
you know, it was after
it was after my divorce.
That was about
maybe 7 years ago now.
And that was, that was a huge thing.
It was a huge moment in my life
that kind of,
it was like a,
what do you say?
Like in French we say,
you know,
like a tearing of something.
And I guess it's a cleaving,
right? A cleaving from
a certain idea and,
you know,
that,
and that was a moment where I was
alone
in France, and I was in a country
that is very much about the self,
right?
And I
was
cleaving from the role of,
of wife
and the idea
of being a woman
that I had
before.
And then that was when I began
to,
have,
and I had no family near me.
I was struggling with my job because I
had a business and I closed it at
the same time. It was all going down
at the same time. So, so you're sitting
there and you're like, it's like a tabula
rasa, you know, like
you, you, you don't have all the anchors
that, that kind of, you know,
the, all the landmarks
that you would use to, to navigate this
life that you thought,
you know, you wanted to live.
And so I had to sit there and
go, wow, what is this?
And who am I?
And
what does it mean to be me? That
must have been scary, but exciting at the
same time.
Oh, yeah. It was terrifying.
It was the first time I felt fear
actually, like really visceral fear in my life.
And it was also a time of like
financial difficulty,
you know, on a very important level.
And I was like, wow, when you don't
know how you're going to pay rent,
and I never had that problem, you know?
And you don't know if someone's going to
rent you an apartment, you don't know, you
know, and
you're really in a culture that's very different
than yours. And
that was
And at the same time, like you don't
know if you've made the biggest mistake of
your life, you don't know if you can
trust yourself,
that was the first time I felt fear
in my life.
I'm actually usually too
stupid to be afraid.
You are not stupid. You
can either be really brave or really dumb.
Sometimes I feel like I've done things that
appear brave, but it's really because I didn't
understand the danger I was going into.
That is brave, isn't it? To to jump
into something
again, this is what has been said over
and over again for millennia is that
bravery is not the absence
of fear. Bravery is being afraid and doing
it anyway.
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. But I feel like I did a
lot of things in the absence of fear.
No.
Did you get married at a young age?
No. I got married at, I think,
30
31,
I think, if I remember correctly. Those years
seem like such
a blur to me. They're so clear
and so unclear at the same time. It's
as if it's been put in a shelf
in my mind
that is, you know, it's there, but it's
like
hard to get to, you know? Do you
have siblings?
I do. I have a sister. She's in
Hong Kong. She's 3 years older than me.
Are expectations for youngest daughter different than eldest
daughter in your culture?
Yes. Yes. I actually,
I actually grew up with no expectations on
me because everything was put on my sister.
To her
detriment, really, it's been, it's really unfair. And
I, you know, I wish I could have
taken that away from her.
But, you know,
it is also something
very odd to have people expect nothing of
you.
That, that, that also shaped a big part
of who I am.
Yeah. And I gotta say, like, I don't
think it's said enough,
how
expectations can really hurt somebody, but the lack
of it can also do this, do that,
You know? You learn
expectations to a certain,
point is a vote of confidence.
It's to say, I look at you and
I believe
that you can do this.
To a healthy point,
parental expectations
can be a way
for the parent to want to self actualize
through somebody
else, through their children.
It could be an image thing that's very
much,
present in Asian culture.
And it also
can be a way of, like, living vicariously
through their their kids, all the things that
they couldn't do. That is kind of unfair
and difficult.
But a good amount of expectation to say,
you know, I see who you are and,
yeah, you know, and I think that you
can get here because
I have a little bit more,
I can see you from the outside.
That that can be good.
Yeah. I think that might in fact be
a universal parental thing,
that vicaria,
perhaps.
Mhmm.
I think we see that a lot here
as well.
We can't
we we can't help it, I think. People
can't help it.
Yeah. Do you have children?
No. No. Okay. I didn't think so, but
I couldn't quite remember.
Yeah.
What brought you to France? Was that the
marriage or was that
a leap of faith
or both? It was it was the marriage.
It was I was living in New York
when right before we got married.
And then I'm I was gonna stay in
New York actually.
And, and then we decided to get married
and I moved to France.
Is it hard to be a global citizen
given the state and nature of
the world
at large these days with all the restrictions
and the concerns
and the
the xenophobia.
I'm just gonna throw that word out there.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes and no.
You get used to it.
With age, it gets a little heavier because
you have a hankering for home,
you know, with, with time, over time. I
feel like life is a journey home And
that, that idea becomes
stronger and stronger inside of you as time
goes by, inside of me at least.
And home is not a place,
but
we can
confuse it for a place, know, because we're
looking for it in, in many different places,
in many different ways. Right? So a sense
of belonging, a sense of not feeling like
we're,
we're a foreigner,
you know, that can
be difficult sometimes. In France, it is difficult
for me in Paris because
I have an accent when I speak that
is very,
you know,
obvious. So,
and also France is still a little bit
behind in
the, you look, you know, because of your
skin color, and then you have an accent
and immediately you're a foreigner and it's, and
they can't
not talk, not point it out to you.
And I think it's very
kind of normal, you know,
it's natural.
I think human beings are naturally that way,
but it can get tiring
because you do want to just blend in
and fit in and belong.
And, you know, after so many years. I
lived in New York for two and a
half years and I'd never felt that. Nobody
ever, you know, they nobody ever made me
feel like I was a foreigner.
And I loved that.
I loved it. Like, it didn't matter what
accent I had or or how I grew
up or what I looked like. You know?
I love that
about America, actually.
I think there's
a big melting pot
here and
there are, you know, for
most days as a foreigner, I didn't feel
that,
that difference. I did, like in certain instances,
in a very pronounced way.
But it was exceptional, you know? Like,
yeah. It was Yeah. Exception to the yeah.
To the world. Exceptional. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Sorry. Not in the exceptional, like, exceptional. An
exception to the world. Yeah. Same thing. No.
I mean, you're right both ways.
That's really interesting. I think it is
frustrating
that
humans don't tend to see human first.
They find whatever difference and or similarity
they can connect to. Yes. Yes. And what's
ironic about that, of course, is the one
thing we all have in common
is that we're human.
But that's not what we do. Right? Our
ego or whatever it is that's leading us
by the nose
decides to Yeah. Pick out the other stuff
first.
I have a feeling that that's about safety,
you know?
It's that we feel safer,
in more in the immediate,
in the immediate. We feel safer with people
who look like us, who resemble us.
We feel like that's, what's the safest, that's
the safest, you know? It depends how we've
grown up as well. It depends what people
have told us. You know, I feel like,
a lot of I have I was just
telling Jake the other day, I have a
friend who's a kindergarten teacher
and she's Canadian Chinese and she teaches in
France. And it was Chinese New Year, the
Lunar New Year. And she wrote in Chinese
on the board, in Mandarin on the board.
And then, and she taught them how to
say happy Chinese New Year in Mandarin.
And they were so excited because the kids,
I think they were like, what, 4 or
something?
And they were like, how do you know
how to do this? And she said, well,
I'm Chinese. And they were like, what do
you mean?
Like, what are you how are you Chinese?
You know, and because they couldn't they didn't
look at
her face. They didn't look at her skin
color, her features. It didn't make, you know?
And I was like, isn't that incredible?
You have to be taught these differences. I
love those videos of the little best friend
kids,
and they'll be side by side, you know,
one
black child, one white child. They're they're sitting,
and the interviewer
says, how are you different? And the first
thing they say is, oh, he likes bananas,
and I don't like bananas. Or it'll be
a kid in a wheelchair and a kid
that is,
not in a wheelchair,
and they'll say, how are you the same?
How are you different? And it's never about
the thing that you would think it would
be about. Because to your point,
they don't see things in that context.
Yeah. Yeah. And we forget that we learned
this. We do. You know, and to
what a shame that we learned this. What
a shame that it was put into us.
It does break my heart. Right? And such
a waste of time
because there's so much time in life to,
actually to to to experience its beauty
and that and to experience connection.
And we take time away from that connection
when when we are taught these things, you
know, it it we have so many missed
opportunities,
and that's just so that's such a tragedy
somehow. It is a tragedy, and it's to
ourselves
as well, the things that
we compare and contrast. And I know I
do it, where I think, oh, why am
I not good at this? Or why
why can't I do this? Whatever it is,
we do it to ourselves too.
And that creates a separation.
And I would go back again to childhood
where somebody has to teach you to
have fear and self loathing
and doubts, as you said, limitations.
Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Because kids are fearless in general.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're all like, like
intrepid and, intrepid and fearless and we don't
know better than, you know, we just go,
go into it. Like, I, I think about,
starting a business And when I started my
business, I did a lot of things that
a lot of people wouldn't have done,
because
they were taught not to. And I did
it because I didn't know that we couldn't,
and we shouldn't, or something. And some of
those things worked out really well.
And some of those
things didn't work out. But,
you know, I wouldn't have done the things
that worked well if I was, if I
list people who told me, well, you know,
you don't do that.
And isn't that, I mean, it's good to
be, to not know everything.
Yeah.
Right? Like, we strive to know everything
because we feel safer.
I am very much like that. I really
I try not to be, you know, that's
one of the things that I'm working on.
Like, it's this false sense of control, right?
Like,
we try to control
the situation, so that we can try to
control an outcome, so that we can be
safe and we can prevent
pain.
And, yeah, I'm learning more and more that
pain is,
can be
a guide
and a gift, and
it is the point it can be that
point beyond our imagination that takes us
to the place that we didn't know we
could go.
Yeah.
It's scary though.
Oh, absolutely.
It is
tricky to override
those things.
And again, fear takes forms all sorts of
ways. Right? Hate, doubt,
self abuse,
obsession.
Yeah. Overwork,
overrunning,
over exercising,
overeating, under eating.
I mean, there's just so many things that
it can look like.
Yeah. Self abnegation.
Is that a word? Is that I I
my vocabulary
is a little mixed up from the How
do you speak? How many languages do you
speak?
4.
Yeah. I think you're doing fine.
It becomes like a like one of those
alphabet soups sometimes, you know, and it's like
some words that work really well in certain
language, and then it doesn't, like, when it
becomes I'm speaking, like, a little bit of
Franglish now. It's like, I didn't realize that
it would happen to me until
until I met Jake.
And this is the most English I've spoken
for a couple of years, and I was
like, wow, my English has gotten really weird.
But, yeah, you know, we deny ourselves things,
that's what I wanna say, like, you know,
Yeah. Because of fear.
Sure.
I'm curious. I love asking this question of
people that speak many languages.
What language do you dream in? And does
it does it change around? Or is it
constantly the same language?
I think I dream in English.
Yeah. I have a very strong relationship
with English.
Because
I,
I, I was
because reading kind of saved me when I
was a kid.
And so it was my first you know,
it's
that first experience of reading a book and
feeling like you would never be alone in
the world
because you have a book.
And, or you've read something
that you've always felt,
you know, but you couldn't put your words
to,
and
suddenly the whole world felt safer.
Yeah. So that,
I had that feeling very much when I
was a child from reading English books. And
so
and then I was writing,
a bit, and I have a very kind
of relationship with writing too. So that was
I think that's why, because the language so
important to
me. It was always English.
Yeah.
It's interesting. The universal language of dreams. It
is a curious thing.
What do you do for a living?
Well, I'm about to start a new job
next week.
So I've been in the past 5 years,
I've been basically like a brand manager for
a for a company, a leather goods company.
I've done
a bunch of different things. And, but right
now, so I'm about to to go work
for a woman who's, who has,
who's a, who has a grocer, like a
grocery
store, like in, in Paris and, and she's
had it for 20 years and now she
wants to develop it. And so we're going
to,
so I'm her what she calls her Swiss
army knife, like her right hand person. So
we're gonna develop the business together. I'm going
to assist her in that, and we're coming
up with a line of food, like pantry
food, like dry goods,
that is sourced in in the purest places
in the world. And so it's beyond organic.
It's also how where it's grown and how
it's grown and by who,
you know, by whom? It's grown and Yeah.
Yeah, by whom it's grown. And
we're doing a little tea bar and the
coffee shop and like, you know,
in
Saint Germain des Prays in Paris. And
that's gonna be really exciting. It's totally new
thing for me, but I I love
I'm a big foodie.
You know, I I love food. I love
feeding people. I love You're a good cook.
Thanks.
Yeah. Yeah.
I I I try. I love it. I
just love I know I love shopping for
food. I love markets. I love,
it's a big part of my culture. Malaysian
culture is about food. It's about love is
shown through feeding people.
And, you know, the question is, have you
eaten, you know, all the time, all throughout
the day? And we, and we, we talk
about dinner during lunch and, you know, and
lunch during breakfast. And it's such a huge
part of my culture. And the older I
get, the more I'm in, I'm becoming that,
you know,
that like in my culture, like the auntie
who, who feeds people,
you know, packs stuff for you in Tupperwares,
you know, that, that woman that I'm becoming
that woman. Oh my God. That's great.
But, yeah. So I love that.
I love this new job where I can
just fully obsess. I've been reading like Ruth
Reichl
and and Nigel Slater, like, all through summer
and
As a person who, for lunch, had a
scoop of almond butter,
a bunch of,
Persian cucumbers and rice wine, and
a bite of,
sorry, no. I have, like, 7 snap peas.
So I need somebody like this in my
life.
Oh, I wish if I lived here, you
would be fed all the time. Guys. You
have a Jake diet.
He has the same, like, the scoop of
peanut butter or almond butter, you know?
Same and then, like, whatever you want. Jake's
I teased Jake horrendously when the first time
I went to his apartment. I opened the
I'm sure he told you this. I opened
the refrigerator.
I was like, Jake,
I'm bad, but this is horrendous. It was
just a, like, hot sauce, a ketchup, and
some of those
takeout packets of soy sauce. I was like,
what are you eating, dude? Yeah. I know.
I thought I wanted to think of grapes.
Like, what are you eating, dude? Yeah.
I know. I was like, what is this?
And his fridge is so big. I have,
like, a tiny fridge. I'm like, we need
to swap bridges. We need to swap kitchens.
My fridge is tiny too.
Do you have
a sense of spirituality
as a person who grew up surrounded by
so many different cultures and religions?
Yes.
I,
I don't, I have a very,
I
have,
I think an unshakable
awareness
of the God shaped void.
You know,
I, I'm not religious.
I have
a very fraught relationship with religion because of
how it went down in my family.
I take issue with
the lack of,
tolerance
and inclusion
and fear mongering,
you know? And I know that not everybody
in that religion
is that way. And I think
I've seen how my father has found
peace and purpose and meaning
in his religion that I don't like very
much, but I,
I, you know, I accept it for that
and I appreciate it for that. But, for
myself,
yeah, I feel that. I feel the void.
I feel,
I feel a sense of the divine
that is, you know,
that is in,
I don't know, in
people
and in nature
and in the moments
of, that you can have
between humans,
between humans and animals,
between humans and
the environment.
I guess that's my spirituality.
Though we were just joking that if Rick
Rubin started a cult, I would join it.
Yeah. He's a deep philosopher
for sure. Yeah. He watched a lot of
his videos where he's pontificating
about the nature of the universe. This is
an interesting person.
Yes. Wonderful. Yeah. Really interesting.
And he I feel like he's
really
calibrated,
you know, in the best way,
his listening
and his observation
and his speaking,
it's
he almost just he listens and hears
and understands,
yeah, with with the the kind of attention
that
that we should always strive to have, I
think,
and and speaks also with that. And there's
something really
magical, like really precious about that.
I agree.
Yeah. It's a the art,
the true art of listening, I think is
a
duality that is both everything matters, nothing matters,
and
I'm not important in this moment,
but I am
you
as well.
Yeah. Which is like a weird combo, right?
If you're if you're speaking,
I'm not important, but I also have the
ability to see myself in you.
Therefore, there's this communion happening,
but also a sense of I don't matter
in in your your
your the one voicing that part of me
right now. I don't know if I'm I
don't know if I'm explaining it or not.
It totally
it makes sense, and I can see it
in your podcast. I can see that you
do that in your podcast. And I think
there is also
I see you also doing,
being that person,
you know, seeing
because that's also a good listener, to listen
and try to understand
from
the perspective
and the context of that person.
And
then that's when you it takes you outside
of yourself, and you and that's real curiosity
too.
Yeah. How, you know Thank you. Not to
take that compliment too.
You're so nice to me.
We didn't mention the name of the store
that the grocery store.
It's called Hedoni.
Hedoni, like, h e with an accent,
d o n I e.
But I, but I guess it has,
a tie to, like, he he
hedonist.
That's where my brain went. But
Yeah. Yeah. That's that's where my brain goes.
I I hope it's not wrong.
But because I've never asked her actually,
the owner why, you know, but that's what
I imagined it's about pleasure. Maybe, you know,
the French have
a wonderful
one of the things I love about living
in France is this whole idea of the
savoir vivre,
the knowing how to live
and the art of living.
And part of the art of living is
to make space
and time for pleasure
and to make time, and to allow
time,
for, you know, to do things with time.
And
that's really liberating
and really nice and kind of, you know,
it nourishes you.
But I still, I come from a culture
where that is just like not done, you
know, so I, if I, I've been on
holiday, this is three and a half weeks,
right?
And I had to go out and do
something for work today because my brain was
going a little bit, like, I was getting,
like, baby brain, you know, like, it was
just kinda getting a bit soggy in my
head. And,
and also I start feeling a little anxiety.
It's, you know, not very good at being
hedonistic.
But I'm glad you had that break. It's
nice to have a break like that before
you go into a new
job or a new career.
It's good Oh, yeah. To to Like a
reset. Yeah. Yeah. It's a definite reset. And
Jake is such a lovely human. What a
great person to do that around.
Yes. Yes. He's a wonderful person to do
that around. And and,
yeah, just to and he knows how to
he's he works really hard and Work really
hard. He has a fantastic work ethic.
But he also he's also so much fun,
you know, and I'm not like, I'm not
saying this in a self deprecating way, but
I'm not good at having fun. Like, I'm
not like a let loose person. Like, I
don't know, I'm very uncool.
Like, I'm not like, you know, I don't
dance, and I don't know how to be
like,
over top with things, and, and, you know,
kind of like, let go and like be
excessive.
I am not, I'm very like kind of
model child type, you know,
it's just from my childhood, and Jake is
so much fun. And I love that about
him. You know. It reminds you that, you
know, you can have fun and you can
break some rules and you can,
you know, do this or do that or,
you know,
that's nice. Yeah. That's a good balance. I'd
love I I know we're running out of
time. I would love for you to tell
the story of how you 2 met because
it's so
rom com
to me.
That was,
okay. So so I was,
I met him the first time in Paris.
I was working in in
the shop that I was working in my
shop.
And I was not supposed to be there
on that day, actually, because that was not
my day. On a Saturday I had, you
know,
and so I was in there because my
colleague was off on trip
and in walks Jake and,
and Jeff, who he was working with
then.
And Jeff was insisting that he should buy
a bone cover
for his phone because he has no protection
on his phone
and it's a leather goods shop.
And so he was like, you get a
leather one because, you know,
it's better.
And so
he's like, okay.
And he asked me if I have one
and I had one and he said it,
he tried it on
and it was fine. And he was like,
you know what? I'm not going to use
this. I'll never use this. You know? And
I said, well, if you're not going to
use it, then you shouldn't buy it. And
so we talk a little bit, you know,
because,
yeah, just like that, you know? And then
they lead.
Did you have a spark that initially, did
you think, wow, this You know what? That
is cute. I no. I thought he was
really cool, you know, but I didn't I
know because I was working. And I, you
know, I, I work in, in that leather
goods store. It's
the, it's very, it's a very
male centered
store, you know? So there's a lot of
men who come in, come through that store.
And when you're a woman who works in
a shop like that, and in,
France, you know, where
the culture is different, it's very, you kind
of have your,
your,
your guard up.
And I always had that, because I wanted
to be, you know, I want credibility. I
want to want to be taken seriously and
to have the boundaries. So no, not really.
And, but I just thought, you know, he's
like a cool guy, you know, really nice.
And two and a half weeks later, or
3 weeks later, I went to London to
see Trevor Noah.
This, he had a standup,
like event there, like show. And then I
went to a store because I was with
a friend and she wanted to buy a
hunting jacket. And I went to this store
on Notting Hills,
Notting Hill.
It's on Portobello Road, actually. Yep, it's called
2 8 4, or 282. Wonderful store. And,
and my friend's like trying on all these
codes, and in walks Jake and
Jer.
And I was like, wait a minute. And
Jake's, you know, his hair was,
down to his, like, just to show, like
shoulder, like the top of his shoulder
or his chin or something. White blonde hair.
Yeah.
White blonde hair. And so I was in
the back of the store and he walks
in and so, you know, where the light
is. And so he's walking and then he's
got like, there's this guy with that halo
of hair
and,
and behind him
is Jeff, who's, you know, dressed in he
has a very particular style. Right?
And so I look at them and I
was like,
wow, okay. And and I and I say
to I I think I I say in
generally to the both of them, I was
like, I'm, I saw you guys in,
in Paris 3 weeks ago or two and
a half weeks ago. And, and they look
at me and I go, you're, you're the
phone case girl.
And so we, you know, we were in
the store for a long time because my
friend was trying on clothes and I was
just pottering around. And so I thought Jake
and I would talk and then we're like,
oh, you know, and he said, do you
wanna,
have lunch or,
and, and Jeff was like, you should have
lunch with Jake because,
because I have a meeting and he's alone.
And, and so Jake had lunch with me
and my friend.
And after the lunch, my friend said to
him to me, and she said, if that
guy asks you out, or like, if that
guy shows interest in you,
and you don't respond,
I will be really mad at you.
Because I was on my 1 year dating
ban.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah. So I was like, I'm on a
dating ban.
I was like, no, I'm on my 1
year dating ban. And I was like, he's
not going to get in touch. He lives
in Los Angeles.
And he got in touch, and
and we were just chatting, and that's how
it started.
Yeah. Well, from this end, when he came
back, he was very excited about
having met you, and
it was really cute to see.
Yeah. No one is really he's a really
sweet person. But the chances of that interaction
happening twice
is so astronomical.
I know, isn't it? I mean, I was
like, don't read too much into it. You
know, I was I was very careful and
I'm like, I know it's really it's really
tempting. It's very
kind of like Nancy Meyers
thing, you know?
And but I'm like, don't read into it,
Like, just be careful. Don't give it too
much importance. And
Meanwhile, the ancestors are, like, listen, bitch.
Yeah. You're like, listen. Like, what do we
have to do around here? You know? I'm
like, no, it's fine. You know, like, do
we have to, like, strike you with lightning?
But it's it's, you know, and and there
are moments where I regret
not, you know, that, do you see how
I'm not fun? Like, this is it. This
is how this is how I'm not fun,
you know? You're fun. I've I've been around
who you are fun.
But it's nice to believe in a bit
of magic, you know, and to to feel
that. How did you allow yourself to have
that when you
when you weren't necessarily
that kind of person?
What made even to come here and and
hang out for 3 weeks. And, I mean,
I know he went there and hung out
for a little while, but still it takes
a lot of courage.
Yeah. I think it's the same situation where
I didn't really weigh it. It's that I
know
now
how rare it is to meet
a really good person
that, you know, like
you can, like, obviously I'm attracted to Jake
and obviously he's a very attractive person. And,
but beyond that, you know, I think he's
a really good person.
And I'm beginning, you know, to realize that
in life, you don't meet that many people,
that you can say,
that's a good person.
You can say, I'm really attracted to this
person, and I'm in like, you know, I'm
infatuated with this person or something, you know,
and that can happen a lot. But a
good person that you meet and you connect
with,
that's really rare. And, you know,
and I think it's worth exploring.
And that's what it was, you know? He's
got that good combination
of,
gentleness, but feel like if the shit went
down, he would be the 1st to jump
in and kick everyone's ass. I don't know
why he has that vibe. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
He totally does. And that's kinda hot.
Yeah.
It is. Yeah. But yeah, he totally has
that. He's got that, yeah, he's so,
he's so sweet.
And,
but at the same time, he has something
like, really badass behind it, you know, that
he's not,
you know,
afraid
to pull out, you know,
if needed.
Yeah. And he's
got like
the really wholesome
guy thing, but at the same time, kind
of like the bad boy thing as well,
you know? And that was very unexpected. And
I was like,
Wow. That's kinda cool.
Well, it's all very exciting. And I think
it's a good lesson, you know, hearing your
story,
especially, I think, from the woman's point of
view because
that that is a risk because you risk
safety.
Besides emotional safety, you risk physical safety
to jump into something.
And Absolutely. So it is a reminder that
there are good
connections to be made.
Yes. Yes. There it is. And, you know,
you risk, you know, anything to do with
love is a risk. Sure. I think, or
like the
and, you know, all the peripheral parts of
it. And,
yeah, and I'm
I think
I was willing to take that risk because
I value
that, you know? But trust me, it's not
something that
I it doesn't feel safe. It doesn't. It
doesn't feel easy at all, you know, to
do things like that. Like, but you've got
to,
I feel like you've got to do it.
Do it anyway. That's bravery. Yeah. Right there.
It's one of those things you're going to
regret in life if you don't do it,
you know? Yeah. Those are the major things
you regret, you know? And I really believe
that we do regret the things we don't
do more than the things that we
do. And
when, when, you know,
this happens, like you meet somebody twice
in 2 different countries in a span of
3 weeks and
you cannot, you know,
do something. But it's also that Jake was
very,
he was very charming as well. Like he's
a great communicator. He's really funny. And that
helps, you know? It makes you forget
all the danger. But we had a moment
where, where, you know, like, I think his
mother was concerned that I could, you know,
that he could go to Paris, and I
could be a murder
a murderer
too. That's true. Right? Like Yeah. He could
be in danger too, you know? Yeah.
So, yeah. We don't think about that, but
that could happen. Yeah. Well, if you Jury
is still out, either one of you could
be a serial killer. We're just gonna wait
and see. I know. Right? Maybe we're a
plot twist. If you're both a serial killer.
That's the plot twist.
Yes. Exactly. And we'll see if it's a
serial surprise.
Right? That would be a great,
Romeo and Juliet story without the families.
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Tell people how they might find you on
adventures
or you know, I don't are you on
social media? I can't remember.
I am, but I just it's just because
I had a store before the home decoration
store and I had my Instagram for that
store, but I'm not on social media in
general. I don't post anything because, you know,
I don't post anything about my life.
You leave tomorrow to go back. What are
you gonna do to celebrate your last
day?
Oh, what are we doing? We're going to
Musso in France tonight. Yummy?
Yeah. And yeah. And we're celebrating Jake's movie
release.
Yay. And we're because Terra Firma comes out
to to not today. It came out today
on streaming. So so we're we're going to
do that. And
yeah, so that'll be a dinner tonight. We
went to Canter's the other day over there.
Oh, I love Canter's. Yeah. Oh, I love
it. It was so good. That was the
best pastrami sandwich I've ever had. And sweet
potato sandwiches.
Yeah. Isn't it the best? And we were
seated in a booth that, next to a
framed copy of Ruth Reichl's review.
And I felt like I was going to
temple,
you know, and that was like the altar
I was praying at. I love
it.
Fantastic.
It was great. It's been a wonderful trip,
and I was I'm glad. Something.
Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad you've had a
good experience. I'd I would have no doubt
that Jake would show you an amazing
3 weeks. So I'm glad you've had that.
It's been
yeah. It's been really amazing. Yeah. I've I've
I've seen a lot of the city, like
yeah. He's been driving a lot. Like, I've
been, you know, like, the city is so
big.
That's how you know somebody from LA really
likes you is that they're willing to drive
you to all those places because you know
Yeah. That means a lot.
I know. I know that that I I
see that. I was, like, wow. That really
means a lot. And I love LA, I
love LA is a real melting pot. And
I always think that you can tell if
it's a real melting pot, by the authenticity
of
the different
types of
food
in different communities.
You know, I had Thai food here that
was better than in Thailand.
And, you know, it was so good. It
was super authentic. And I'm like, I love
that that community,
was able to preserve and share that. And,
and I think that says something about, about
the city, you know. Yeah.
Absolutely.
Well, come back soon and then I need
to come to France Cause I've never been,
I've been to Portugal airport. I've never actually
gone to experience France at all.
You must come. You'll stay with me. Okay.
But in my tiny little place, but you
must come. The tiny place is part of
the experience.
You blew my mind when you told me
about the squatting thing. Can we talk about
that really quick? I'm I'm just so flabbergasted
by this.
Oh, yeah. If if you, if somebody breaks
into your apartment and lives there for more
than I think 48 or 72 hours and
that apartment and,
you know, you can't kick them out.
That's a, that's a thing it's, but it's
not that common. And, as it's not
that common in Paris, but
I actually saw a documentary on it. And
that was mind blowing. That was like in
France, right? Like in actual houses where many
people moved in and cut electricity, and put
generators
in,
and no, that's
the tenant is very well
protected in France,
as workers
are very well protected as opposed to employers.
So, yeah.
And, oh, and if somebody,
if somebody stops paying rent,
I think in winter,
you can't kick them out or something. There's
like, there are laws like that.
It's it's wild.
Yeah. It is wild.
Well, anyway,
thank you so much for
talking with me today. I really appreciate it,
especially knowing this is your last day for
you to take the time. I really I
think that's great. Well, thank you for having
me. It's such, it's such an honor and
a a great pleasure. It's been such a
cool conversation.
I love talking about these things with you.
Yeah. And, yeah, I I love I love
your questions. And,
yeah, I wish we could hang.
I know. Nay, I'll come to France or
you come back and we'll figure we'll meet
up somewhere else. Yeah. You're such a wonderful
person to talk to. Thanks. I love that.
I love your humanity.
Thank you. Yeah. I appreciate that. It's Thank
you.
We need more of that in life.
That's that's that's what makes it special.
Well, right back at you. I think that
you, like myself, are a human of the
world. And the more
we're out there,
the the more likely there's more of us
and we it kinda spreads like wildfire as
we remind people that it's it's not as
difficult as it seems.
Yeah. It isn't. Because we have each other.
And we always find our you know, we
find each other.
Yeah. Yeah. We really do. I think everybody
does. They find new people.
I agree. And that's going home, you know?
Yes. Absolutely.
It's like
Gilda, the weak, the good witch says to
Dorothy,
you had it all along. You had the
ability to be home all along because it
was never outside of herself.
Right? It's always in us.
Yeah.
Okay.
Thank you for listening, everybody. Bye.
Bye, love. Bye. Bye. See you.
Great. Review and subscribe to Hey Human Podcast
on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks.
Bye.