1
00:00:07,839 --> 00:00:09,460
Hey, humans. How's it going?

2
00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,400
Susan Ruth here. Thanks for listening to another

3
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:12,900
episode

4
00:00:13,199 --> 00:00:14,500
of Hey Human podcast.

5
00:00:15,894 --> 00:00:17,274
This is episode 431,

6
00:00:17,655 --> 00:00:19,755
and my guest is John Hsu.

7
00:00:20,535 --> 00:00:23,414
John is an author of best selling children's

8
00:00:23,414 --> 00:00:25,515
books. He's the children's librarian

9
00:00:25,815 --> 00:00:26,875
for Bookalicious.

10
00:00:28,059 --> 00:00:30,399
He's a part time lecturer at Rutgers University

11
00:00:30,539 --> 00:00:32,780
and has served as the ambassador of school

12
00:00:32,780 --> 00:00:34,960
libraries for scholastic book fairs

13
00:00:35,340 --> 00:00:36,559
for almost 6 years.

14
00:00:36,939 --> 00:00:40,059
He's also recovered from childhood anorexia and is

15
00:00:40,059 --> 00:00:42,399
a champion and advocate for kids everywhere.

16
00:00:42,875 --> 00:00:45,754
His novel in verse, Louder Than Hunger, is

17
00:00:45,754 --> 00:00:48,475
a powerful story that stands up against that

18
00:00:48,475 --> 00:00:50,734
voice in our head that lies to us

19
00:00:50,954 --> 00:00:53,274
and tells us we're not worthy to take

20
00:00:53,274 --> 00:00:54,015
up space.

21
00:00:54,554 --> 00:00:55,454
It is a

22
00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,979
groundbreaking book, and I believe it has helped

23
00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,340
people all over the planet to face their

24
00:01:03,479 --> 00:01:04,459
sense of worthlessness

25
00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,760
and stand up against it and shine light

26
00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:07,659
in dark places.

27
00:01:08,334 --> 00:01:11,314
I met John through our mutual friend,

28
00:01:11,694 --> 00:01:14,754
Molly O'Neil, and John and Molly worked together.

29
00:01:15,375 --> 00:01:18,174
And I asked Molly, hey. You know a

30
00:01:18,174 --> 00:01:19,954
lot of really interesting writers,

31
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:22,400
and I would love to be able to

32
00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,400
talk to some of them. So she connected

33
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,480
us, and I think you're gonna enjoy this

34
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,799
one. John's a really sweet guy. Check out

35
00:01:28,799 --> 00:01:29,299
heyhumanpodcast.com

36
00:01:30,159 --> 00:01:31,760
for links and to learn more about my

37
00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:32,819
guests and the show,

38
00:01:33,334 --> 00:01:33,834
susanruth.com

39
00:01:34,454 --> 00:01:35,894
to learn more about me and my other

40
00:01:35,894 --> 00:01:36,875
artistic endeavors.

41
00:01:37,415 --> 00:01:40,055
Hey Human Podcast is now on YouTube under

42
00:01:40,055 --> 00:01:43,034
official Susan Ruth. I'm on Patreon at susanruthism.

43
00:01:44,055 --> 00:01:45,515
I'm on TikTok at susanruthism,

44
00:01:46,055 --> 00:01:48,454
and find my albums on Spotify, Apple Music,

45
00:01:48,454 --> 00:01:50,930
Amazon Music, or wherever you get your music.

46
00:01:50,930 --> 00:01:53,250
Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human Podcast

47
00:01:53,250 --> 00:01:55,909
on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts,

48
00:01:56,290 --> 00:01:58,469
and thank you for listening. Be well.

49
00:01:59,090 --> 00:01:59,829
Be kind.

50
00:02:00,609 --> 00:02:01,349
Be love.

51
00:02:01,844 --> 00:02:03,064
Please, be love.

52
00:02:03,765 --> 00:02:04,665
Here we go.

53
00:02:05,685 --> 00:02:07,944
John Hsu, welcome to Hey Human.

54
00:02:09,444 --> 00:02:11,044
Thank you. I am so honored to be

55
00:02:11,044 --> 00:02:13,044
here. My my friend Molly O'Neil once told

56
00:02:13,044 --> 00:02:15,120
me about you, and said that one day

57
00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,199
we must connect and today is our day

58
00:02:17,199 --> 00:02:17,860
to connect.

59
00:02:18,159 --> 00:02:21,379
Love Molly so much. She is the best.

60
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:23,840
We actually she and I met at a

61
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:25,379
conference called Story.

62
00:02:26,884 --> 00:02:29,604
So, She's she's amazing. Like, she's the best

63
00:02:29,604 --> 00:02:32,185
person to talk about stories with and she

64
00:02:32,245 --> 00:02:34,664
minds stories out of your heart and soul.

65
00:02:35,204 --> 00:02:38,185
She's so kind and so welcoming and loves,

66
00:02:38,245 --> 00:02:39,465
loves, loves books.

67
00:02:40,030 --> 00:02:42,349
Let's jump into you. Tell me about your

68
00:02:42,349 --> 00:02:43,889
upbringing. Where'd you grow up?

69
00:02:44,189 --> 00:02:45,730
And how did your family

70
00:02:46,189 --> 00:02:48,930
shape you? Right now, I'm in Naperville, Illinois,

71
00:02:48,990 --> 00:02:50,689
which is a suburb of Chicago.

72
00:02:50,990 --> 00:02:52,909
And I grew up in a south suburb

73
00:02:52,909 --> 00:02:54,914
of Chicago called Tinley Park.

74
00:02:55,314 --> 00:02:58,055
And I was mostly raised by my grandparents

75
00:02:58,275 --> 00:03:00,354
though. My grandma had just retired and my

76
00:03:00,354 --> 00:03:02,275
mom was working full time. And so my

77
00:03:02,275 --> 00:03:04,834
grandma became my babysitter, but then my grandma

78
00:03:04,834 --> 00:03:06,454
also became my best friend.

79
00:03:06,834 --> 00:03:09,234
And when I was in 1st grade, we

80
00:03:09,234 --> 00:03:12,250
moved 30 miles away from my grandma, and

81
00:03:12,250 --> 00:03:14,810
that was really, really hard for me. And

82
00:03:14,810 --> 00:03:17,129
Monday through Thursday, I often didn't feel as

83
00:03:17,129 --> 00:03:19,290
though I could breathe because I always felt

84
00:03:19,290 --> 00:03:20,889
like I was my best self when I

85
00:03:20,889 --> 00:03:23,370
was with my grandma, but I always knew

86
00:03:23,370 --> 00:03:25,884
on Friday when I arrived home that my

87
00:03:25,884 --> 00:03:28,384
grandma's red car would be in the driveway,

88
00:03:28,685 --> 00:03:29,965
and that I get to go to her

89
00:03:29,965 --> 00:03:32,205
house for 3 days. And so I think

90
00:03:32,205 --> 00:03:33,724
a lot of my of who I am

91
00:03:33,724 --> 00:03:35,884
and and how I love stories, and why

92
00:03:35,884 --> 00:03:37,805
I became a teacher and a librarian and

93
00:03:37,805 --> 00:03:38,465
a writer,

94
00:03:38,790 --> 00:03:41,430
is is because of my grandmother who's who

95
00:03:41,430 --> 00:03:44,330
surrounded me with love and stories and authenticity.

96
00:03:44,949 --> 00:03:47,669
Do you think that she saw you more

97
00:03:47,669 --> 00:03:49,590
than anyone else saw you, or do you

98
00:03:49,590 --> 00:03:51,689
think it was just the idea of grandma

99
00:03:51,830 --> 00:03:53,050
from a kid's perspective?

100
00:03:53,625 --> 00:03:55,944
Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting because I I

101
00:03:55,944 --> 00:03:57,465
have a book that that came out in

102
00:03:57,465 --> 00:03:57,965
2024

103
00:03:58,344 --> 00:04:00,924
called Louder Than Hunger, and it's a fictionalized

104
00:04:01,224 --> 00:04:03,544
account of of my life. I changed my

105
00:04:03,544 --> 00:04:05,704
name from John to Jake, but when I

106
00:04:05,704 --> 00:04:08,239
was writing that book, grandma became one of

107
00:04:08,459 --> 00:04:10,939
the the the main characters. And and I

108
00:04:10,939 --> 00:04:13,259
explored a lot about, like, why was grandma,

109
00:04:13,259 --> 00:04:15,340
like, my person? And I do think it

110
00:04:15,340 --> 00:04:17,100
is that she was just so loving and

111
00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:19,500
patient and and calm. And my mom was

112
00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:21,259
going through a lot of mental health issues

113
00:04:21,259 --> 00:04:23,485
herself. And my mom had become a mom

114
00:04:23,485 --> 00:04:25,404
at the age of 17, and I don't

115
00:04:25,404 --> 00:04:27,324
think she was quite ready to become a

116
00:04:27,324 --> 00:04:29,404
mom yet. And she had 2 kids by

117
00:04:29,404 --> 00:04:31,324
the time she was 20 years old. And

118
00:04:31,324 --> 00:04:33,644
so, you know, you don't I didn't understand

119
00:04:33,644 --> 00:04:35,485
at the time, but now as an adult,

120
00:04:35,485 --> 00:04:37,740
I understand, like, that's a lot that that

121
00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:39,500
she was that was, you know, brought into

122
00:04:39,500 --> 00:04:41,420
her own life and and having mental health

123
00:04:41,420 --> 00:04:43,740
challenges as well. And I think at my

124
00:04:43,740 --> 00:04:45,920
grandma's house, there was more oxygen

125
00:04:46,379 --> 00:04:48,300
in the rooms than in my in the

126
00:04:48,300 --> 00:04:50,560
home in which I lived Monday through Thursday.

127
00:04:51,044 --> 00:04:52,644
That's a great way to put it. You

128
00:04:52,644 --> 00:04:53,785
were able to actually

129
00:04:54,164 --> 00:04:56,485
move around in your space and not I

130
00:04:56,485 --> 00:04:58,504
think for a lot of us as children,

131
00:04:58,884 --> 00:05:00,985
especially those of us who grew up in

132
00:05:02,084 --> 00:05:04,769
disordered homes that it it was hard to

133
00:05:04,769 --> 00:05:06,529
be seen. You didn't wanna take up too

134
00:05:06,529 --> 00:05:08,709
much space. So there was that weird juxtaposition

135
00:05:08,930 --> 00:05:10,769
of I want you to see me, but

136
00:05:10,769 --> 00:05:12,129
I don't want you to see me. Because

137
00:05:12,129 --> 00:05:14,629
if you see me, I get hurt. Yeah.

138
00:05:15,410 --> 00:05:17,569
Yeah. That's so interesting because that's what really

139
00:05:17,569 --> 00:05:19,985
Louder Than Hunger is about is trying not

140
00:05:19,985 --> 00:05:22,064
to take up space in the world, and

141
00:05:22,064 --> 00:05:24,704
trying to become smaller and smaller, and and

142
00:05:24,704 --> 00:05:27,185
almost invisible. And and the way that Jake

143
00:05:27,185 --> 00:05:28,944
in the book does that is by taking

144
00:05:28,944 --> 00:05:30,324
away food from himself.

145
00:05:30,865 --> 00:05:33,800
And for a long time, grandma's house is

146
00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,120
the place where the voice, the voice meaning

147
00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,839
that inner saboteur in your head that tells

148
00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,680
you that you're worthless and tells you that

149
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,160
you're a miserable person and you don't deserve

150
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,379
to be on this planet,

151
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,839
is super loud when he's with his mom

152
00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:48,439
and dad, when I was with my mom

153
00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:49,785
and dad. But It was a little bit

154
00:05:49,785 --> 00:05:51,725
quieter when I was with my grandma.

155
00:05:52,105 --> 00:05:54,845
But eventually, even at grandma's house, the voice

156
00:05:54,904 --> 00:05:57,064
is there, and the voice is loud. And

157
00:05:57,064 --> 00:05:59,404
in in my one safe space,

158
00:05:59,944 --> 00:06:02,345
is no longer safe because the voice comes

159
00:06:02,345 --> 00:06:04,285
with it comes with me rather.

160
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,800
Does that voice sound like your voice or

161
00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,139
does it sound like somebody completely different?

162
00:06:10,759 --> 00:06:13,080
Yeah. As a in the beginning, I didn't

163
00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:15,160
know it was my own voice. Right? I

164
00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,504
thought it was somebody else talking to me

165
00:06:17,665 --> 00:06:19,665
because the voice starts off quiet and then

166
00:06:19,665 --> 00:06:21,584
it gets louder and louder and louder and

167
00:06:21,584 --> 00:06:23,584
then all of a sudden it's taking over

168
00:06:23,584 --> 00:06:25,824
your entire brain. And and in my own

169
00:06:25,824 --> 00:06:27,584
therapy and and in the book Louder Than

170
00:06:27,584 --> 00:06:30,785
Hunger, Jake has this moment of wait, this

171
00:06:30,785 --> 00:06:33,800
is actually me. I'm the person who's sabotaging

172
00:06:34,099 --> 00:06:34,599
myself

173
00:06:35,139 --> 00:06:37,379
and I can actually talk back to that

174
00:06:37,379 --> 00:06:39,000
voice in my life

175
00:06:39,539 --> 00:06:42,519
adolescence. That voice was always a capital V.

176
00:06:42,659 --> 00:06:44,705
And I always tell kids now like I

177
00:06:44,705 --> 00:06:45,205
worked

178
00:06:45,665 --> 00:06:48,225
hard to turn that capital v voice into

179
00:06:48,225 --> 00:06:49,845
a lowercase v voice

180
00:06:50,145 --> 00:06:52,865
and have strategies and skills in place to

181
00:06:52,865 --> 00:06:55,425
never allow it. Well, hopefully, to never allow

182
00:06:55,425 --> 00:06:57,985
it to become capitalized again because that's when

183
00:06:57,985 --> 00:07:00,479
you don't often realize it's actually you. But

184
00:07:00,479 --> 00:07:02,599
I think lowercase v, we often know. That's

185
00:07:02,599 --> 00:07:04,379
us. That's our own saboteur.

186
00:07:05,159 --> 00:07:07,000
That's present in all of us, I think.

187
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,839
Well, I guess there's a few people I

188
00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:10,439
I have heard of a few people out

189
00:07:10,439 --> 00:07:11,740
there that don't have

190
00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:13,419
an external monologue,

191
00:07:14,125 --> 00:07:16,444
an internal external I call it the external

192
00:07:16,444 --> 00:07:18,925
monologue even though it's internal because it feels

193
00:07:18,925 --> 00:07:21,644
like it's separate than myself. But that that's

194
00:07:21,644 --> 00:07:24,704
what's so important, I think, about doing therapy,

195
00:07:25,485 --> 00:07:28,459
especially therapy that focuses on our childhood when

196
00:07:28,459 --> 00:07:30,139
you're an adult because you do have the

197
00:07:30,139 --> 00:07:30,639
perspective.

198
00:07:31,420 --> 00:07:32,939
And the truth of the matter is we

199
00:07:32,939 --> 00:07:34,779
are the onion. We are the layers of

200
00:07:34,779 --> 00:07:36,620
all the people we have been throughout our

201
00:07:36,620 --> 00:07:38,939
life, and that little kid is still in

202
00:07:38,939 --> 00:07:41,019
there, still going. Yeah. I don't know what

203
00:07:41,019 --> 00:07:43,165
that voice is. That voice is scary, and

204
00:07:43,165 --> 00:07:45,345
the adult us has to go back and

205
00:07:45,644 --> 00:07:46,144
gently

206
00:07:46,925 --> 00:07:50,464
love them through whatever moment they they've experienced.

207
00:07:51,084 --> 00:07:53,164
That's what was so interesting about writing Louder

208
00:07:53,164 --> 00:07:55,884
Than Hunger is that the book opens in,

209
00:07:56,204 --> 00:07:56,704
1996,

210
00:07:57,349 --> 00:07:59,750
and I love saying it's historical fiction, which

211
00:07:59,750 --> 00:08:01,589
kids don't laugh at that, but certain people

212
00:08:01,589 --> 00:08:04,410
are like, oh, my childhood is historical fiction.

213
00:08:04,709 --> 00:08:07,189
And so it opens in 1996, and in

214
00:08:07,189 --> 00:08:09,750
the first act, like, he's spiraling out of

215
00:08:09,750 --> 00:08:11,990
control because that voice is getting louder and

216
00:08:11,990 --> 00:08:13,915
louder and louder. And then in the second

217
00:08:13,915 --> 00:08:16,074
act of the book, he's hospitalized in a

218
00:08:16,074 --> 00:08:17,855
facility called Whispering Pines.

219
00:08:18,235 --> 00:08:20,394
And right away, they can diagnose him with

220
00:08:20,394 --> 00:08:21,615
anorexia nervosa

221
00:08:22,154 --> 00:08:24,314
based on the DSM at the time. But

222
00:08:24,314 --> 00:08:25,935
as Jake starts to refeed,

223
00:08:26,235 --> 00:08:29,009
he and I started to refeed, he's diagnosed,

224
00:08:29,069 --> 00:08:32,509
I was diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder, depression,

225
00:08:32,509 --> 00:08:33,169
and anxiety.

226
00:08:33,629 --> 00:08:35,649
And once Jake starts to refeed,

227
00:08:36,029 --> 00:08:37,629
a lot of the story is told in

228
00:08:37,629 --> 00:08:39,730
flashback, where you go back to 1986,

229
00:08:40,394 --> 00:08:41,695
You go back to 1987.

230
00:08:42,154 --> 00:08:43,915
And so many of the things that I

231
00:08:43,915 --> 00:08:45,935
write about in the book, I had forgotten.

232
00:08:46,315 --> 00:08:49,274
I didn't remember that those things happened. But

233
00:08:49,274 --> 00:08:51,915
because the book is poetry, poetry always allows

234
00:08:51,915 --> 00:08:53,055
me to be more vulnerable

235
00:08:53,435 --> 00:08:55,215
and to tell more of the truth.

236
00:08:55,580 --> 00:08:57,820
And I would write these poems and then

237
00:08:57,820 --> 00:08:59,740
go, oh, my goodness. I I haven't thought

238
00:08:59,740 --> 00:09:02,620
about this in 30 years. But writing those

239
00:09:02,620 --> 00:09:05,340
things down healed my adult self. I didn't

240
00:09:05,340 --> 00:09:07,259
realize that I was holding on to so

241
00:09:07,259 --> 00:09:09,345
many of those those things and that they

242
00:09:09,345 --> 00:09:12,384
were still affecting my present day self. And

243
00:09:12,384 --> 00:09:14,644
disordered eating is such a fascinating

244
00:09:15,345 --> 00:09:18,245
disorder because I feel like there is

245
00:09:19,345 --> 00:09:22,690
one one part of the psyche that says,

246
00:09:22,690 --> 00:09:24,850
I know this is not right. I know

247
00:09:24,850 --> 00:09:26,070
this is killing me.

248
00:09:26,450 --> 00:09:27,910
I know that it's unhealthy.

249
00:09:28,370 --> 00:09:30,230
But then on the other side,

250
00:09:30,610 --> 00:09:31,990
we are constantly

251
00:09:32,370 --> 00:09:33,670
bombarded by messaging

252
00:09:35,009 --> 00:09:35,750
that says,

253
00:09:36,065 --> 00:09:38,325
the thinner you are, the better you are.

254
00:09:38,865 --> 00:09:41,825
Yeah. Yeah. It's a really confusing space to

255
00:09:41,825 --> 00:09:45,044
live in and especially to heal for you

256
00:09:45,264 --> 00:09:45,764
experiencing

257
00:09:46,304 --> 00:09:48,304
at the time again with they they've changed

258
00:09:48,304 --> 00:09:49,985
the language over the years, but at the

259
00:09:49,985 --> 00:09:51,970
time, it would have considered anorexia.

260
00:09:52,990 --> 00:09:53,490
Firstly,

261
00:09:53,870 --> 00:09:57,549
relatively rare in males. Yeah. But and I

262
00:09:57,549 --> 00:09:58,370
think people

263
00:09:58,829 --> 00:10:00,129
maybe don't necessarily

264
00:10:00,589 --> 00:10:02,669
people who have experienced in their lives understand

265
00:10:02,669 --> 00:10:04,684
this but for those who who are listening

266
00:10:04,684 --> 00:10:05,585
that don't know,

267
00:10:06,044 --> 00:10:07,264
it's really not about

268
00:10:07,884 --> 00:10:10,365
the food per se. No. It's about the

269
00:10:10,365 --> 00:10:10,865
control,

270
00:10:11,565 --> 00:10:14,044
the feeling of being able to control this

271
00:10:14,044 --> 00:10:14,945
one thing.

272
00:10:15,325 --> 00:10:17,424
I can control what goes into my body

273
00:10:17,644 --> 00:10:18,384
or not.

274
00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,120
Yeah. Yeah. And for yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

275
00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,879
for me and in the story for Jake,

276
00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:25,120
that's what it is. It feels like it's

277
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,159
a best friend because he doesn't have any

278
00:10:28,159 --> 00:10:30,000
friends other than his grandma. Well, he does

279
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,565
have a friend named Emily Dickinson, but she,

280
00:10:32,565 --> 00:10:34,565
of course, doesn't know that he exists. And

281
00:10:34,804 --> 00:10:36,264
And she could be a real downer.

282
00:10:37,205 --> 00:10:39,044
No. But he does. He and I did

283
00:10:39,044 --> 00:10:40,644
too. Like, I used to talk to Emily

284
00:10:40,644 --> 00:10:43,365
Dickinson all of the time. And and so

285
00:10:43,365 --> 00:10:45,445
he has Emily, and he has his his

286
00:10:45,445 --> 00:10:47,605
grandma, and he has he loves Sondheim. He

287
00:10:47,605 --> 00:10:50,139
loves musicals, musicals as do I. So for

288
00:10:50,139 --> 00:10:51,580
me, it was it was my way of

289
00:10:51,580 --> 00:10:54,059
controlling, like, everything going around me that I

290
00:10:54,059 --> 00:10:55,980
couldn't, but I could control what was going

291
00:10:55,980 --> 00:10:57,820
in my body and and always, like, I'm

292
00:10:57,820 --> 00:10:59,419
so grateful you said, it really has nothing

293
00:10:59,419 --> 00:11:01,355
to do with food. It's like manifestations

294
00:11:02,134 --> 00:11:03,735
of something else and you've got to figure

295
00:11:03,735 --> 00:11:05,595
out why are you doing this to yourself.

296
00:11:05,975 --> 00:11:06,875
Were your parents

297
00:11:07,254 --> 00:11:08,475
at this time noticing

298
00:11:08,774 --> 00:11:10,235
this aspect of you?

299
00:11:10,774 --> 00:11:12,855
Yeah. I well, my parents in the book,

300
00:11:12,855 --> 00:11:14,699
Jake's parents are not going through a divorce,

301
00:11:14,699 --> 00:11:16,559
but in my own life, they were.

302
00:11:17,019 --> 00:11:18,939
And so they my mom was very, you

303
00:11:18,939 --> 00:11:19,759
know, preoccupied,

304
00:11:20,139 --> 00:11:22,240
and my mom was having a midlife crisis.

305
00:11:22,299 --> 00:11:24,379
And, you know, I wasn't with my dad,

306
00:11:24,379 --> 00:11:26,379
and my grandma was going through a lot

307
00:11:26,379 --> 00:11:27,980
of the time as well. And so it

308
00:11:27,980 --> 00:11:30,574
was really easy to hide. Just like during

309
00:11:30,634 --> 00:11:31,134
COVID,

310
00:11:31,434 --> 00:11:33,454
when kids weren't in person school,

311
00:11:33,834 --> 00:11:36,554
peep like guidance counselors and social workers weren't

312
00:11:36,554 --> 00:11:39,274
recognizing a lot of behaviors, and everybody was

313
00:11:39,274 --> 00:11:41,434
just trying to stay alive in the home,

314
00:11:41,434 --> 00:11:43,679
that it was easier to hide. And I've

315
00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,840
met with a lot of people who either

316
00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,240
on the phone, who are currently hospitalized, who

317
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,360
are 21, 22, where their eating disorder started,

318
00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,519
you know, in high school. And and all

319
00:11:53,519 --> 00:11:55,120
of them tell me it was because it

320
00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,524
was so much easier to hide during that

321
00:11:57,524 --> 00:11:58,024
time.

322
00:11:58,325 --> 00:12:00,245
I grew up in an era too where

323
00:12:00,245 --> 00:12:02,325
it was really prevalent. I don't know. I

324
00:12:02,325 --> 00:12:03,865
haven't kept up with the statistics,

325
00:12:04,565 --> 00:12:06,184
but I imagine it's still

326
00:12:06,725 --> 00:12:07,784
pretty major.

327
00:12:08,164 --> 00:12:10,485
It's a pretty major issue. Yeah. Well, and

328
00:12:10,485 --> 00:12:12,199
in males, because you mentioned males, it's it's

329
00:12:12,199 --> 00:12:14,839
10%. 10 at least that's the stack that's

330
00:12:14,839 --> 00:12:17,240
usually used. 10% of people with eating disorders

331
00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:17,740
are

332
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,539
are are men or males. Yeah. Mhmm.

333
00:12:21,159 --> 00:12:23,000
And it's been, you know, a lot of

334
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:23,879
boys during,

335
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,904
experiences at middle schools will come up to

336
00:12:26,904 --> 00:12:28,985
me when they know nobody is around and

337
00:12:28,985 --> 00:12:31,465
share with me that they were hospitalized for

338
00:12:31,465 --> 00:12:34,904
anorexia or bulimia or disordered eating, and and

339
00:12:34,904 --> 00:12:37,785
and they they feel more seen. Because in

340
00:12:37,785 --> 00:12:39,805
my I spent 2 years in the hospital.

341
00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,040
In the book, Louder Than Hunger, Jake spends

342
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,639
a year, and I was never with another

343
00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:46,440
male that entire time. So in the 2

344
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:48,440
years in the experience of being in the

345
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:48,940
hospital,

346
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:49,740
were

347
00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,620
where did you begin to have this love

348
00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:53,259
of,

349
00:12:53,644 --> 00:12:56,285
obviously, if Emily Dickinson is somebody you're talking

350
00:12:56,285 --> 00:12:58,684
to, it sounds like you already began the

351
00:12:58,684 --> 00:13:00,225
process of loving reading.

352
00:13:00,845 --> 00:13:03,565
But how did were books coming in and

353
00:13:03,565 --> 00:13:05,904
being your friends while you're in the hospital?

354
00:13:06,799 --> 00:13:08,879
Yes. So not so much in the beginning

355
00:13:08,879 --> 00:13:10,799
in the hospital because for me, I wasn't

356
00:13:10,799 --> 00:13:13,679
able to concentrate very much. School was becoming

357
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,839
really challenging where it had never been challenging

358
00:13:15,839 --> 00:13:17,519
in my life. I always did well in

359
00:13:17,519 --> 00:13:19,459
school, but when you're not feeding your brain,

360
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,279
it's hard to focus and it's hard to

361
00:13:21,279 --> 00:13:23,674
do work and it's hard to be present.

362
00:13:23,894 --> 00:13:26,934
And so once I started to repeat again

363
00:13:26,934 --> 00:13:27,434
story,

364
00:13:27,735 --> 00:13:29,434
and then music and poetry

365
00:13:29,815 --> 00:13:31,575
became a big part of my life. And

366
00:13:31,575 --> 00:13:33,815
I always tell kids that I'm living, walking

367
00:13:33,815 --> 00:13:37,274
proof that music and theater can save you.

368
00:13:37,529 --> 00:13:40,649
And I'm known for children's literature, but but

369
00:13:40,649 --> 00:13:42,649
for me, the thing that is most important

370
00:13:42,649 --> 00:13:45,149
in my daily life is music and theater,

371
00:13:45,529 --> 00:13:47,929
that constantly allows me to stay well. It's

372
00:13:47,929 --> 00:13:49,789
good being here in Chicago or near Chicago.

373
00:13:50,214 --> 00:13:51,894
Yeah. Yeah. I'm not here much because I

374
00:13:51,894 --> 00:13:53,815
travel every week, but yes. I I do

375
00:13:53,815 --> 00:13:55,335
I do all my writing in New York

376
00:13:55,335 --> 00:13:57,414
City. You know, lots and lots of plays

377
00:13:57,414 --> 00:13:59,894
and musicals. So I would say, like, I

378
00:13:59,894 --> 00:14:01,335
I as long as I meet my writing

379
00:14:01,335 --> 00:14:02,615
goal for the day, I can see a

380
00:14:02,615 --> 00:14:05,115
musical. So it's good. It's good encouragement.

381
00:14:05,860 --> 00:14:09,059
How did you convince yourself to refeed, to

382
00:14:09,059 --> 00:14:11,700
start eating again? What what was that stepping

383
00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:12,200
stone?

384
00:14:12,660 --> 00:14:14,820
Yeah. For me, it was eventually, I just

385
00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:17,620
got so tired of being sick and so

386
00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:20,100
tired of missing school. I'd I'd missed 2

387
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:21,160
years of school.

388
00:14:21,835 --> 00:14:23,375
I've been in 2 different programs.

389
00:14:23,914 --> 00:14:25,754
I was in a program called Linden Oaks,

390
00:14:25,754 --> 00:14:27,375
which was a mental health facility,

391
00:14:27,914 --> 00:14:30,634
for 7 months. Then after 7 months, they

392
00:14:30,634 --> 00:14:33,274
essentially kicked me out because they said, like,

393
00:14:33,274 --> 00:14:35,615
you've you're you keep starting over the program.

394
00:14:35,899 --> 00:14:38,059
Like, you've been here the longest. Like, you're

395
00:14:38,059 --> 00:14:40,160
doing the same exercises again.

396
00:14:40,539 --> 00:14:42,539
There's truly nothing else we can do for

397
00:14:42,539 --> 00:14:44,639
you because you're not helping yourself.

398
00:14:45,340 --> 00:14:47,259
And you you you need to start doing

399
00:14:47,259 --> 00:14:49,179
what we're asking you to do. But I

400
00:14:49,179 --> 00:14:51,404
was very, very stubborn. And so they kicked

401
00:14:51,404 --> 00:14:52,605
me out of that one. And then I

402
00:14:52,605 --> 00:14:54,544
went to a much more of a medical

403
00:14:54,605 --> 00:14:57,245
facility, where there weren't as many people with

404
00:14:57,245 --> 00:14:58,065
eating disorders,

405
00:14:58,524 --> 00:15:00,865
and I think that was the right program

406
00:15:00,924 --> 00:15:01,664
for me.

407
00:15:01,965 --> 00:15:04,285
Because as you probably know, people with eating

408
00:15:04,285 --> 00:15:05,664
disorders are very competitive,

409
00:15:06,370 --> 00:15:07,809
and they want to be the best at

410
00:15:07,809 --> 00:15:08,549
their disorder.

411
00:15:09,009 --> 00:15:09,750
And unfortunately,

412
00:15:10,529 --> 00:15:13,089
so many people learn from each other how

413
00:15:13,089 --> 00:15:14,949
to be better at their eating disorder,

414
00:15:15,329 --> 00:15:17,730
and they manipulate each other. And and I

415
00:15:17,730 --> 00:15:20,309
was very competitive, and I was very manipulative.

416
00:15:20,764 --> 00:15:22,205
So for me to be in a program

417
00:15:22,205 --> 00:15:23,345
that didn't have

418
00:15:23,725 --> 00:15:27,004
as many others with eating disorders was really

419
00:15:27,004 --> 00:15:29,004
good for me, and and and I think

420
00:15:29,004 --> 00:15:31,485
that type of environment allowed me to actually

421
00:15:31,485 --> 00:15:33,485
start doing the work. For me, I always

422
00:15:33,485 --> 00:15:35,490
remember when I was in the 7th grade,

423
00:15:35,490 --> 00:15:37,009
I was pretty sure I had an eating

424
00:15:37,009 --> 00:15:38,850
disorder, and I'd go to the public library

425
00:15:38,850 --> 00:15:41,409
all the time. The library was my my

426
00:15:41,409 --> 00:15:44,149
safe space as well, just like grandma's house.

427
00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:48,049
And I vividly remember finding an isolated library

428
00:15:48,049 --> 00:15:48,549
carol,

429
00:15:49,325 --> 00:15:51,985
and typing into the old, probably, Apple 2e

430
00:15:52,205 --> 00:15:53,665
terms like anorexia

431
00:15:54,045 --> 00:15:57,165
and bulimia and eating disorder, and it led

432
00:15:57,165 --> 00:16:00,125
me to such toxic things. It led me

433
00:16:00,125 --> 00:16:02,850
to so many articles about Tracy Gold. This

434
00:16:02,850 --> 00:16:04,690
Tracy Gold from Growing Pains is in the

435
00:16:04,690 --> 00:16:07,669
news a lot then. I discovered Karen Carpenter,

436
00:16:08,289 --> 00:16:09,190
and I discovered

437
00:16:09,570 --> 00:16:12,149
so many books that I would never name

438
00:16:12,450 --> 00:16:15,190
because those books served as how to manuals.

439
00:16:15,490 --> 00:16:17,169
And I remember I I I would read

440
00:16:17,169 --> 00:16:18,985
a chapter, and then I would just do

441
00:16:18,985 --> 00:16:20,764
exactly what was in that book.

442
00:16:21,144 --> 00:16:23,545
And so many people like me work to

443
00:16:23,545 --> 00:16:26,605
report books like that and to report websites,

444
00:16:26,904 --> 00:16:28,045
and not as censorship,

445
00:16:28,504 --> 00:16:30,345
but to say these are these are materials

446
00:16:30,345 --> 00:16:32,184
that are are not good for for people

447
00:16:32,184 --> 00:16:33,004
who are vulnerable,

448
00:16:33,419 --> 00:16:35,360
for eating disorders. It's not good for anybody

449
00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:38,480
because it glorifies it glorifies the eating disorder

450
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:40,940
or disordered eating in so many ways. Well,

451
00:16:40,940 --> 00:16:42,460
that's kind of what I was speaking to

452
00:16:42,460 --> 00:16:44,620
also in the beginning of our conversation is

453
00:16:44,620 --> 00:16:47,440
that we live in a society that does

454
00:16:47,845 --> 00:16:50,164
glorify it. It's getting I grew up in

455
00:16:50,164 --> 00:16:52,565
the modeling world. I hit 6 foot at

456
00:16:52,565 --> 00:16:53,065
14.

457
00:16:53,845 --> 00:16:56,565
They're not exactly encouraging you to have snacks

458
00:16:56,565 --> 00:16:59,700
in that world, you know? Yeah. And

459
00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:02,500
to your point, it does become very competitive

460
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:04,500
with the other people around you, and then

461
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:06,579
you're shown images and you're expected to look

462
00:17:06,579 --> 00:17:07,480
like these images.

463
00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:09,880
Yeah. It's Yeah. It's

464
00:17:10,339 --> 00:17:12,119
it it's very influential.

465
00:17:13,275 --> 00:17:15,515
Yeah. Yeah. And with Instagram and with I

466
00:17:15,515 --> 00:17:17,355
mean, all social media. I mean, my book

467
00:17:17,355 --> 00:17:19,355
is, I said, to explain to 96 when

468
00:17:19,355 --> 00:17:21,674
it happened to me. I couldn't write about

469
00:17:21,674 --> 00:17:23,835
that. I think the experience now it's it's

470
00:17:23,835 --> 00:17:26,250
so different from from what I went through.

471
00:17:26,329 --> 00:17:29,069
There's also the language at home. I remember

472
00:17:29,289 --> 00:17:32,089
my mother struggled with her weight. She was

473
00:17:32,089 --> 00:17:33,630
overweight for a lot of my childhood.

474
00:17:34,089 --> 00:17:37,289
My father had been overweight before he married

475
00:17:37,289 --> 00:17:38,509
my mother and then

476
00:17:39,055 --> 00:17:41,295
decided that he was fat and and lost

477
00:17:41,295 --> 00:17:43,375
a ton of weight. And in my humble

478
00:17:43,375 --> 00:17:43,875
opinion,

479
00:17:44,414 --> 00:17:46,974
I think he's had body dysmorphia ever since.

480
00:17:46,974 --> 00:17:49,695
He's incredibly thin. So I grew up in

481
00:17:49,695 --> 00:17:52,169
this house where there was the one voice,

482
00:17:52,169 --> 00:17:54,509
my father's voice saying, oh, that's so fattening.

483
00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:56,890
That's that's got so many calories. And my

484
00:17:56,890 --> 00:17:58,990
mother sneaking and hiding food.

485
00:17:59,289 --> 00:18:00,349
And those messages

486
00:18:00,650 --> 00:18:03,609
being so that's little kids pick up on

487
00:18:03,609 --> 00:18:05,069
all of that conversation.

488
00:18:06,234 --> 00:18:08,794
Yeah. So interesting. I I just remembered something

489
00:18:08,794 --> 00:18:10,394
I haven't thought about in a long time.

490
00:18:10,394 --> 00:18:12,154
When I was at Linden Oaks, again, I

491
00:18:12,154 --> 00:18:14,414
was there so long, that I was hospitalized

492
00:18:14,714 --> 00:18:16,095
with somebody who was 16,

493
00:18:16,634 --> 00:18:19,615
and then later with that person's mother.

494
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,759
And it was so interesting because I heard

495
00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:23,259
everything

496
00:18:23,559 --> 00:18:25,559
from the 16 year old about her mom

497
00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:27,799
and how her mom, she thought, really helped

498
00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:29,960
create her eating disorder. And then to be

499
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:31,720
with the mother and to hear what the

500
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:33,774
mother said about her daughter, I felt like

501
00:18:33,774 --> 00:18:35,375
like I shouldn't be there. I shouldn't have

502
00:18:35,375 --> 00:18:38,194
been able to hear these 2 different conversations.

503
00:18:38,494 --> 00:18:40,575
But, yeah, that's when I truly realized at

504
00:18:40,575 --> 00:18:42,894
a young age that a lot of people

505
00:18:42,894 --> 00:18:44,894
with eating disorders, it is because of the

506
00:18:44,894 --> 00:18:47,214
messaging in the home and and and and

507
00:18:47,214 --> 00:18:50,059
how food is is seen and talked about

508
00:18:50,519 --> 00:18:53,240
or protected. Yeah. And we think of of

509
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,480
disordered eating, I think a lot. And as

510
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,880
a society as, oh, this person is starving,

511
00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,640
but there's also the other side where people

512
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,099
are hiding by putting

513
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,444
weight on. I have known individuals who

514
00:19:04,825 --> 00:19:06,904
that's their way of staying invisible in the

515
00:19:06,904 --> 00:19:09,565
world is they just keep Yeah. Feeding themselves

516
00:19:09,704 --> 00:19:11,964
so that they would be considered quote unquote

517
00:19:12,265 --> 00:19:12,765
undesirable

518
00:19:13,144 --> 00:19:15,740
to the world at large. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

519
00:19:15,740 --> 00:19:17,259
And I even have to liaise with people

520
00:19:17,259 --> 00:19:20,299
like like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just

521
00:19:20,299 --> 00:19:22,160
it's so important to get those conversations

522
00:19:22,619 --> 00:19:24,640
out into the zeitgeist because

523
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:26,559
the it's they're weirdly

524
00:19:26,940 --> 00:19:29,519
there's so much stigma around it still.

525
00:19:30,255 --> 00:19:33,134
There's and the stigma goes both ways. It's

526
00:19:33,134 --> 00:19:35,055
the both again, like, we talked about this

527
00:19:35,055 --> 00:19:37,855
weird badge of honor Yeah. In the community

528
00:19:37,855 --> 00:19:40,414
itself and then this sort of, oh, not

529
00:19:40,414 --> 00:19:42,335
my child or, oh, I'm I'm not hearing

530
00:19:42,335 --> 00:19:44,255
the messaging going on. So I'm I'm glad

531
00:19:44,255 --> 00:19:46,240
that we kind of got to cover that.

532
00:19:46,940 --> 00:19:48,319
Moving from that,

533
00:19:49,259 --> 00:19:51,740
tell me about when you started to get

534
00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:53,980
what you were feeling inside and the stories

535
00:19:53,980 --> 00:19:56,299
you wanted to come out. How did what

536
00:19:56,299 --> 00:19:57,279
was that process?

537
00:19:57,805 --> 00:19:59,565
Like, when did I, like, say to myself,

538
00:19:59,565 --> 00:20:01,884
I'm gonna start writing stories? Yes. Yes. Yeah.

539
00:20:01,884 --> 00:20:03,345
I love telling this story.

540
00:20:03,884 --> 00:20:04,205
So,

541
00:20:04,924 --> 00:20:06,845
I was let me go through my my

542
00:20:06,845 --> 00:20:09,085
background. So I was a 3rd grade teacher

543
00:20:09,085 --> 00:20:11,079
for 3 years, and I loved being a

544
00:20:11,079 --> 00:20:12,919
3rd grade teacher. I thought I'd always be

545
00:20:12,919 --> 00:20:14,919
a 3rd grade teacher. And then I became

546
00:20:14,919 --> 00:20:17,159
a 4th grade teacher, and I loved teaching

547
00:20:17,159 --> 00:20:19,720
4th grade actually more than 3rd grade because

548
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,720
I looped with my students. And I had

549
00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,785
the same students for 2 years, and that

550
00:20:23,785 --> 00:20:26,184
was magical because on the first day, I

551
00:20:26,184 --> 00:20:28,424
knew everything about their reading lives and their

552
00:20:28,424 --> 00:20:30,505
writing lives, and they knew me, and the

553
00:20:30,505 --> 00:20:32,984
community had already been established, and we got

554
00:20:32,984 --> 00:20:34,744
busy right away. And then I went to

555
00:20:34,744 --> 00:20:36,184
library school to learn how to be a

556
00:20:36,184 --> 00:20:36,684
librarian,

557
00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:39,899
and I transitioned from being a classroom teacher

558
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,119
in the school where I'd been a homeroom

559
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:43,579
teacher to the school librarian.

560
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,119
And that was magical because you got to

561
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,255
follow kids from kindergarten through grade 5. And

562
00:20:49,255 --> 00:20:51,255
I did that for 9 years, and then

563
00:20:51,255 --> 00:20:53,494
I left, and I became the ambassador of

564
00:20:53,494 --> 00:20:55,815
school libraries. And I used to travel all

565
00:20:55,815 --> 00:20:59,275
over the country advocating for libraries and librarians

566
00:20:59,974 --> 00:21:02,954
and was was speaking 200 days a year

567
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,039
and was talking about books nonstop and other

568
00:21:07,039 --> 00:21:09,839
people's stories, which I is is really, really

569
00:21:09,839 --> 00:21:12,259
important to me. But someone named Molly O'Neil

570
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:13,940
had been seeing my presentations,

571
00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:17,519
and she kept saying, John, I think that

572
00:21:17,519 --> 00:21:19,475
you're a writer, and I think you have

573
00:21:19,475 --> 00:21:21,634
stories inside of you. And I kept saying,

574
00:21:21,634 --> 00:21:22,934
no, Molly, I don't.

575
00:21:23,235 --> 00:21:25,795
I'm not a writer. And I kept, like,

576
00:21:25,795 --> 00:21:28,455
having Molly check-in with me every few months.

577
00:21:28,755 --> 00:21:30,535
And then in 2017,

578
00:21:31,909 --> 00:21:33,049
Amy Krause Rosenthal,

579
00:21:33,429 --> 00:21:35,210
who is one of my favorite authors,

580
00:21:35,509 --> 00:21:37,429
she wrote books for adults and books for

581
00:21:37,429 --> 00:21:40,230
kids and did lots of social experiments in

582
00:21:40,230 --> 00:21:42,549
the city of Chicago. And John,

583
00:21:42,869 --> 00:21:45,049
John she was John Green's mentor.

584
00:21:45,904 --> 00:21:47,204
And in 2017,

585
00:21:47,904 --> 00:21:49,664
she shared with the world that she had

586
00:21:49,664 --> 00:21:52,464
terminal cancer, and she'd been keeping that private

587
00:21:52,464 --> 00:21:53,524
for a long time.

588
00:21:53,825 --> 00:21:56,144
And 2 weeks after she shared that on

589
00:21:56,144 --> 00:21:58,784
Instagram, that she had cancer, the New York

590
00:21:58,784 --> 00:22:01,319
Times ran a piece that she wrote in

591
00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:03,399
which she was looking for a new wife

592
00:22:03,399 --> 00:22:04,299
for her husband

593
00:22:04,839 --> 00:22:07,159
before she died. I remember this. And it

594
00:22:07,159 --> 00:22:09,159
was real Yeah. It was really sad, and

595
00:22:09,159 --> 00:22:11,399
it went viral. And there was lots of

596
00:22:11,399 --> 00:22:13,640
white space at the end of the piece

597
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,224
because the story wasn't over yet. And then

598
00:22:16,224 --> 00:22:19,744
approximately 2 weeks later, Amy passed away, and

599
00:22:19,744 --> 00:22:20,244
StoryCorps

600
00:22:20,704 --> 00:22:22,724
had been holding on to a conversation

601
00:22:23,424 --> 00:22:25,904
between her then 19 year old daughter, Paris

602
00:22:25,904 --> 00:22:28,944
Rosenthal, and Amy. And in it, Amy Kraus

603
00:22:28,944 --> 00:22:31,789
Rosenthal said, make the most of your time

604
00:22:31,789 --> 00:22:33,869
here. And when I heard that, make the

605
00:22:33,869 --> 00:22:35,710
most of your time here, I, one, started

606
00:22:35,710 --> 00:22:38,029
sobbing. I always tell people, don't listen to

607
00:22:38,029 --> 00:22:40,509
that interview when you're driving. Like, listen to

608
00:22:40,509 --> 00:22:42,450
it, like, in a in a private place.

609
00:22:43,525 --> 00:22:45,285
And when I heard that I truly wrote

610
00:22:45,285 --> 00:22:47,365
Molly O'Neil, and at that time she was

611
00:22:47,365 --> 00:22:49,605
an agent and I said, Molly, I am

612
00:22:49,605 --> 00:22:52,484
ready to start writing stories now, which is

613
00:22:52,484 --> 00:22:54,565
why the first book that I wrote called

614
00:22:54,565 --> 00:22:57,045
This Is the Story is dedicated to Amy

615
00:22:57,045 --> 00:22:57,944
Krause Rosenthal.

616
00:22:58,549 --> 00:23:00,630
And I wish Amy Krauss Rosenthal were still

617
00:23:00,630 --> 00:23:01,130
here.

618
00:23:01,589 --> 00:23:03,849
She had so many more stories to tell.

619
00:23:03,990 --> 00:23:06,789
But she continues to inspire people, and I've

620
00:23:06,789 --> 00:23:08,950
shared that story on NPR, and I then

621
00:23:08,950 --> 00:23:11,835
got connected with her family, and her sister-in-law

622
00:23:12,134 --> 00:23:14,055
is a teacher, and and I send her

623
00:23:14,055 --> 00:23:14,555
sister-in-law

624
00:23:14,855 --> 00:23:16,695
copies of my books when they come out

625
00:23:16,695 --> 00:23:18,934
to give away. So, yeah, it's because of

626
00:23:18,934 --> 00:23:19,914
Amy Kress Rosenthal

627
00:23:20,375 --> 00:23:22,475
and because of of Molly O'Neil,

628
00:23:22,855 --> 00:23:24,615
who saw something in me that I didn't

629
00:23:24,615 --> 00:23:25,515
see in myself.

630
00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:27,669
And at the time, I didn't realize that

631
00:23:27,669 --> 00:23:29,829
I had to write many books in order

632
00:23:29,829 --> 00:23:32,549
to finally write Louder Than Hunger, which was

633
00:23:32,549 --> 00:23:34,309
the story that, like, I think only I

634
00:23:34,309 --> 00:23:37,529
could tell. And that people were really surprised

635
00:23:37,589 --> 00:23:38,409
that I wrote

636
00:23:38,845 --> 00:23:40,924
because my book, This is a Story, is

637
00:23:40,924 --> 00:23:43,484
all about libraries and my love of story,

638
00:23:43,484 --> 00:23:45,644
and people know that, who know me. And

639
00:23:45,644 --> 00:23:47,164
my book, This is a School, is about

640
00:23:47,164 --> 00:23:49,105
my love of school. People know that.

641
00:23:49,484 --> 00:23:51,325
But people didn't know that all of the

642
00:23:51,325 --> 00:23:54,150
mental health challenges that I went through, helped

643
00:23:54,150 --> 00:23:56,309
speak helped me become the person I am

644
00:23:56,309 --> 00:23:56,809
today.

645
00:23:57,190 --> 00:23:59,590
Yeah. I love what a beautiful story. And

646
00:23:59,590 --> 00:24:02,070
in my belief system, she is she does

647
00:24:02,070 --> 00:24:03,830
know and she is there and she has

648
00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:05,670
read it and she she is a part

649
00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:07,430
of it because she's part of all things

650
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:09,494
now. Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

651
00:24:09,974 --> 00:24:11,115
Yeah. For sure.

652
00:24:11,494 --> 00:24:12,315
You write,

653
00:24:13,015 --> 00:24:14,134
do you have a,

654
00:24:14,535 --> 00:24:17,035
tendency to write in a verse style?

655
00:24:17,894 --> 00:24:20,855
Yeah. Like, it's it's only Molly Molly. It's

656
00:24:20,855 --> 00:24:23,039
like I keep talking about Molly, because Molly

657
00:24:23,039 --> 00:24:24,639
is always with me when I'm writing. Like,

658
00:24:24,639 --> 00:24:26,819
she's not physically with me, but she's there

659
00:24:27,039 --> 00:24:29,200
emotionally. And sometimes she's with me when I'm

660
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,599
writing. But she said, John, you didn't realize

661
00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:32,880
you were a poet. We I don't think

662
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,200
we realized, but everything comes out of you

663
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,154
in poet tree, and and that goes back

664
00:24:37,154 --> 00:24:38,994
to, I think, something I said earlier, which

665
00:24:38,994 --> 00:24:41,394
is that poetry allows me to be brave

666
00:24:41,394 --> 00:24:43,335
and allows me to be vulnerable,

667
00:24:43,714 --> 00:24:45,234
and and I love how you can play

668
00:24:45,234 --> 00:24:46,134
with the page.

669
00:24:46,674 --> 00:24:48,694
Louder Than Hunger, it's like 528

670
00:24:49,075 --> 00:24:49,575
pages.

671
00:24:50,220 --> 00:24:52,539
Some editors would have gotten it down to

672
00:24:52,539 --> 00:24:55,019
200 pages because they are it's it's a

673
00:24:55,019 --> 00:24:57,119
novel in verse, so they're they're all poems.

674
00:24:57,420 --> 00:24:59,819
But I needed I needed to take up

675
00:24:59,819 --> 00:25:01,579
space on the page, and I needed to

676
00:25:01,579 --> 00:25:04,054
play with the page. And Jake and

677
00:25:04,434 --> 00:25:05,875
I have a had a really hard time

678
00:25:05,875 --> 00:25:07,954
at one time taking up space on the

679
00:25:07,954 --> 00:25:09,714
page. I mean, it's taking up space in

680
00:25:09,714 --> 00:25:11,654
the world, but not on the page.

681
00:25:12,034 --> 00:25:13,875
Yeah. I love playing I love playing with

682
00:25:13,875 --> 00:25:15,974
the page. It's a beautiful juxtaposition

683
00:25:16,355 --> 00:25:17,815
of a person who

684
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,039
was trying so hard not to be seen

685
00:25:20,039 --> 00:25:22,380
and then now you get to be seen

686
00:25:22,519 --> 00:25:24,140
all over the place. Yeah.

687
00:25:24,759 --> 00:25:27,559
I actually really enjoy books like that. It's

688
00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:28,920
what drove me to do you know the

689
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,900
author, Sark?

690
00:25:31,184 --> 00:25:32,085
I do I do not.

691
00:25:32,625 --> 00:25:34,484
But I'm writing I'm writing it down.

692
00:25:34,944 --> 00:25:37,924
Very colorful. Takes up every little

693
00:25:38,865 --> 00:25:41,585
every little corner, every little space, you know,

694
00:25:41,585 --> 00:25:42,085
just

695
00:25:42,384 --> 00:25:43,125
no rules.

696
00:25:43,505 --> 00:25:45,044
It speaks to our inner child.

697
00:25:45,779 --> 00:25:47,880
Yeah. It really does. Yeah. Yeah.

698
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:50,980
Let's talk about libraries for a second. I'd

699
00:25:50,980 --> 00:25:51,720
love to.

700
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:56,019
For me, libraries were incredibly important as not

701
00:25:56,019 --> 00:25:58,360
only a refuge from my home,

702
00:25:58,820 --> 00:26:00,420
I could walk to the library in my

703
00:26:00,420 --> 00:26:00,920
neighborhood

704
00:26:01,434 --> 00:26:02,654
which was awesome.

705
00:26:03,115 --> 00:26:03,615
Librarians

706
00:26:04,474 --> 00:26:05,375
are so helpful.

707
00:26:05,835 --> 00:26:08,634
When I changed schools my senior year, I

708
00:26:08,634 --> 00:26:10,955
spent I was so terrified. I spent the

709
00:26:10,955 --> 00:26:12,875
1st 2 weeks in the library eating my

710
00:26:12,875 --> 00:26:13,375
lunch.

711
00:26:13,674 --> 00:26:15,615
Mhmm. Until the librarian

712
00:26:16,730 --> 00:26:18,670
came up to it makes me wanna cry.

713
00:26:18,809 --> 00:26:20,190
Came up to me and said,

714
00:26:20,570 --> 00:26:22,490
you know, you can't spend sorry. I don't

715
00:26:22,490 --> 00:26:24,430
know why I'm getting emotional about it.

716
00:26:24,809 --> 00:26:26,890
No. No. Please. No. Do. Because that's what

717
00:26:26,890 --> 00:26:27,950
libraries do.

718
00:26:28,570 --> 00:26:30,009
Can't do. Up to me and she said,

719
00:26:30,009 --> 00:26:32,029
you can't spend your life in here.

720
00:26:32,355 --> 00:26:34,515
You have to go be you have to

721
00:26:34,515 --> 00:26:36,595
go be in in your life down with

722
00:26:36,595 --> 00:26:38,694
all the kids and stuff. Yeah. And

723
00:26:39,394 --> 00:26:40,755
and so I did it, and I was

724
00:26:40,755 --> 00:26:42,674
so scared. And it was the best thing

725
00:26:42,674 --> 00:26:44,515
ever. I sat down. I just sort of

726
00:26:44,515 --> 00:26:47,349
picked a place to sit amongst all these

727
00:26:47,349 --> 00:26:49,509
people that were chattering and who had grown

728
00:26:49,509 --> 00:26:51,109
up together. I I ended up in a

729
00:26:51,109 --> 00:26:53,109
school where the kids had grown ups in

730
00:26:53,109 --> 00:26:55,450
2nd grade together, basically. And here I was,

731
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:58,244
you know, a senior. It was I was

732
00:26:58,244 --> 00:27:00,164
brand new. I didn't know anyone, and they

733
00:27:00,164 --> 00:27:01,785
all knew each other. And I just

734
00:27:02,965 --> 00:27:05,225
feline, sat down in a space,

735
00:27:05,605 --> 00:27:07,705
and the people around me were so lovely.

736
00:27:07,845 --> 00:27:10,244
And in fact, one of those women is

737
00:27:10,244 --> 00:27:11,625
my friend to this day.

738
00:27:12,244 --> 00:27:13,730
Jen. Shout out, Jen.

739
00:27:14,029 --> 00:27:16,509
And and it's just if it weren't for

740
00:27:16,509 --> 00:27:19,390
that librarian seeing me and sort of pushing

741
00:27:19,390 --> 00:27:20,529
me out of the nest,

742
00:27:20,910 --> 00:27:23,069
so I I already have a soft spot

743
00:27:23,069 --> 00:27:23,730
for them.

744
00:27:24,509 --> 00:27:26,430
Yeah. Yeah. And that librarian knew that you

745
00:27:26,430 --> 00:27:27,869
would be okay out there. I think in

746
00:27:27,869 --> 00:27:30,265
some situations, librarian would have let you stay

747
00:27:30,404 --> 00:27:32,244
knowing, like, this may not have been a

748
00:27:32,244 --> 00:27:34,644
safe space for you to leave. Right? But

749
00:27:34,644 --> 00:27:36,085
she knew. She could see that you're you're

750
00:27:36,085 --> 00:27:37,845
gonna be okay. There's gonna be people down

751
00:27:37,845 --> 00:27:39,924
there who are going to accept you and

752
00:27:39,924 --> 00:27:41,785
love you, and you'll end up knowing them

753
00:27:42,005 --> 00:27:43,625
all these years later still.

754
00:27:44,069 --> 00:27:45,829
Yeah. She knew her students better than I

755
00:27:45,829 --> 00:27:47,509
did because I was new, but she knew

756
00:27:47,509 --> 00:27:49,190
for you know, the the type of kids

757
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:51,669
in them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's

758
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:54,149
beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Oh, yeah.

759
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:55,909
I got very much so about it. I

760
00:27:55,909 --> 00:27:57,669
don't know. I guess it's still that little

761
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:59,215
kid, you know, even though I was what,

762
00:27:59,215 --> 00:28:00,355
I would have been 17.

763
00:28:00,815 --> 00:28:02,035
That's still a kid.

764
00:28:02,575 --> 00:28:04,815
That is. Yeah. It's hard. It's a hard

765
00:28:04,815 --> 00:28:07,475
time. Yeah. For sure. Well, let's talk about

766
00:28:07,855 --> 00:28:09,795
your being a librarian and,

767
00:28:10,255 --> 00:28:12,575
let's talk about Bookalicious a little bit. Let's

768
00:28:12,654 --> 00:28:14,909
all of that. So Bookalicious is a is

769
00:28:14,909 --> 00:28:16,009
a is a startup,

770
00:28:16,470 --> 00:28:17,289
out of California,

771
00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:20,789
in the San Francisco area. And I ended

772
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:21,769
up joining Bookalicious

773
00:28:22,230 --> 00:28:23,690
because of the founder.

774
00:28:24,069 --> 00:28:25,690
Her name is Leanne Borders.

775
00:28:26,204 --> 00:28:28,525
And when I was in high school, 17,

776
00:28:28,525 --> 00:28:29,664
like you just mentioned,

777
00:28:29,964 --> 00:28:31,644
I would go to the library a lot,

778
00:28:31,644 --> 00:28:33,484
but I started to transition to actually going

779
00:28:33,484 --> 00:28:34,944
to bookstores more.

780
00:28:35,244 --> 00:28:37,005
And where I lived, you had two choices.

781
00:28:37,005 --> 00:28:38,684
You had Barnes and Noble, and you had

782
00:28:38,684 --> 00:28:39,184
Borders.

783
00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:41,190
And when I was in one mood, I

784
00:28:41,190 --> 00:28:43,109
would go to Barnes and Noble. In another

785
00:28:43,109 --> 00:28:45,190
mood, I would go to Borders. And I

786
00:28:45,190 --> 00:28:47,349
realized now as an adult, I loved going

787
00:28:47,349 --> 00:28:49,190
to Borders when I was in a certain

788
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:51,349
type of mood because it was more like

789
00:28:51,349 --> 00:28:54,644
an independent bookshop feel. It felt more indie,

790
00:28:54,644 --> 00:28:57,605
and there's lots of music and records, and

791
00:28:57,605 --> 00:28:59,524
it wasn't it was kind of more messy,

792
00:28:59,524 --> 00:29:00,264
I thought.

793
00:29:00,565 --> 00:29:03,125
Lianne Borders is of the Borders family that

794
00:29:03,125 --> 00:29:04,105
founded Borders.

795
00:29:04,565 --> 00:29:07,089
Her husband is Lewis Borders, And so I

796
00:29:07,089 --> 00:29:08,690
just love that she was taking a lot

797
00:29:08,690 --> 00:29:09,429
of the philosophy,

798
00:29:10,289 --> 00:29:12,130
of the borders that I loved when I

799
00:29:12,130 --> 00:29:14,369
was in high school. And I do all

800
00:29:14,369 --> 00:29:17,109
of my speaking and school visits through Bookalicious.

801
00:29:17,329 --> 00:29:19,855
It's just it's a really beautiful match. Are

802
00:29:19,855 --> 00:29:22,674
you concerned about the state of libraries

803
00:29:23,054 --> 00:29:26,335
and the peril that librarians face? Yeah. Yeah.

804
00:29:26,335 --> 00:29:28,194
Always. I mean, it's it's hard.

805
00:29:28,815 --> 00:29:31,714
Books are being challenged. People are being challenged.

806
00:29:32,109 --> 00:29:34,769
I think that kids' lifelines are being challenged,

807
00:29:35,389 --> 00:29:37,069
is is what I always say to people.

808
00:29:37,069 --> 00:29:39,230
It's that, like, when we ban something that

809
00:29:39,230 --> 00:29:40,450
could save a child,

810
00:29:40,750 --> 00:29:43,549
we're we're removing maybe the only lifeline in

811
00:29:43,549 --> 00:29:46,075
their lives. And through talking about loud when

812
00:29:46,075 --> 00:29:48,035
I talk about Louder Than Hunger, it's even

813
00:29:48,035 --> 00:29:50,134
easier and I think more powerful,

814
00:29:50,674 --> 00:29:51,974
to make those connections.

815
00:29:52,434 --> 00:29:55,174
That books truly can be the perfect prescription

816
00:29:55,634 --> 00:29:57,154
to let us know we're going to be

817
00:29:57,154 --> 00:29:59,890
okay, that they they can save us. I

818
00:29:59,890 --> 00:30:01,569
mean, for for me, it was it was

819
00:30:01,569 --> 00:30:04,549
the musical Rent that that really saved me,

820
00:30:05,009 --> 00:30:07,589
but I think, like, stories e e equally,

821
00:30:07,890 --> 00:30:09,890
but but Rent is what I always point

822
00:30:09,890 --> 00:30:12,914
to. And when I do, visits with middle

823
00:30:12,914 --> 00:30:15,715
schoolers, I do this entire segment on Adena

824
00:30:15,715 --> 00:30:19,075
Minzel, and it makes my 17 year old

825
00:30:19,075 --> 00:30:20,134
self so happy.

826
00:30:20,515 --> 00:30:22,914
That's great. Because, you know, Adena Minzel was

827
00:30:22,914 --> 00:30:25,599
in the original Broadway cast of Rent. Rent

828
00:30:25,599 --> 00:30:28,000
is fantastic. The books have always been banned

829
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,299
historically. That is nothing new. But the ferocity

830
00:30:31,599 --> 00:30:33,779
with which they are being banned now

831
00:30:34,639 --> 00:30:35,859
is, to me, terrifying.

832
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:37,700
I I cannot believe

833
00:30:38,605 --> 00:30:40,764
that people don't see that in the history

834
00:30:40,764 --> 00:30:42,684
of the world, being on the side of

835
00:30:42,684 --> 00:30:45,005
the people that banned books is not the

836
00:30:45,005 --> 00:30:46,625
right side in history.

837
00:30:47,164 --> 00:30:49,325
No. Not at all. No. And I think

838
00:30:49,325 --> 00:30:51,105
we would learn that from history.

839
00:30:51,809 --> 00:30:53,569
Yeah. We would be able to, yeah, make

840
00:30:53,649 --> 00:30:55,409
but it but I always remind people, it's

841
00:30:55,409 --> 00:30:57,970
actually a small group of people. It's a

842
00:30:57,970 --> 00:30:59,649
small group of people who have made it,

843
00:30:59,649 --> 00:31:02,289
like, their full time job to report books.

844
00:31:02,289 --> 00:31:04,230
They often don't even live in the community.

845
00:31:04,529 --> 00:31:06,515
Or read the books. They don't read that's

846
00:31:06,515 --> 00:31:08,375
the thing. Like, you know, as a librarian,

847
00:31:08,835 --> 00:31:10,294
thanks as a school librarian,

848
00:31:10,595 --> 00:31:12,615
thankfully, I never had a book challenged.

849
00:31:13,075 --> 00:31:14,994
But when I would talk to kids about

850
00:31:14,994 --> 00:31:16,835
why I didn't have certain books in our

851
00:31:16,835 --> 00:31:17,335
libraries

852
00:31:17,714 --> 00:31:18,534
in our library,

853
00:31:18,835 --> 00:31:21,150
they would be surprised of the reason. So

854
00:31:21,150 --> 00:31:23,150
a good example I always use with people

855
00:31:23,150 --> 00:31:25,470
is the Hunger Games is popular now, but

856
00:31:25,470 --> 00:31:27,390
when it first came out, it was very,

857
00:31:27,390 --> 00:31:30,670
very popular. And my students didn't understand why

858
00:31:30,670 --> 00:31:32,750
we didn't have Hunger Games. And I'd say

859
00:31:32,750 --> 00:31:34,535
to them, you can go to the public

860
00:31:34,535 --> 00:31:36,055
library and get it. You can go to

861
00:31:36,055 --> 00:31:36,714
the bookstore.

862
00:31:37,174 --> 00:31:38,775
I know you have a sibling at the

863
00:31:38,775 --> 00:31:41,174
junior high. They can check ask your sibling

864
00:31:41,174 --> 00:31:42,775
to check it out for you. But then

865
00:31:42,775 --> 00:31:44,535
I would say to them, I have something

866
00:31:44,535 --> 00:31:45,914
called a selection policy.

867
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:48,440
And according to all of these reviews,

868
00:31:49,220 --> 00:31:52,019
that book, Hunger Games, is for grades 9

869
00:31:52,019 --> 00:31:53,940
and up. And I said, if your mom

870
00:31:53,940 --> 00:31:55,539
or your dad or your grandma were to

871
00:31:55,539 --> 00:31:57,700
challenge it, I would lose that challenge. And

872
00:31:57,700 --> 00:31:59,140
they would then understand it, but they'd be

873
00:31:59,140 --> 00:32:01,380
like, nobody, whatever. My parents would never do

874
00:32:01,380 --> 00:32:03,444
that. But I say, well, okay. But I

875
00:32:03,444 --> 00:32:05,365
I I am I'm going by the policy

876
00:32:05,365 --> 00:32:06,724
that I have, you know, and we have

877
00:32:06,724 --> 00:32:08,484
to have that in place. But the first

878
00:32:08,484 --> 00:32:09,845
thing on the pot on the on the

879
00:32:09,845 --> 00:32:11,704
form is, did you read the book?

880
00:32:12,164 --> 00:32:13,924
And so often, the answer is no. I

881
00:32:13,924 --> 00:32:15,944
did not read the book. Yeah. Exactly.

882
00:32:16,549 --> 00:32:18,390
I think Molly would agree with both of

883
00:32:18,390 --> 00:32:21,210
us in in this as well is that

884
00:32:21,589 --> 00:32:23,690
I get frustrated though by the

885
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:25,049
what age

886
00:32:25,429 --> 00:32:27,690
range is listed on a book because

887
00:32:28,069 --> 00:32:29,990
I was reading at an at an early

888
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:30,470
age,

889
00:32:30,869 --> 00:32:31,929
much higher level.

890
00:32:32,305 --> 00:32:33,125
And because of

891
00:32:33,664 --> 00:32:35,825
that, you know, I was open to worlds

892
00:32:35,984 --> 00:32:38,644
Yeah. Opened up to worlds that were fantastical.

893
00:32:39,025 --> 00:32:39,765
My family,

894
00:32:40,464 --> 00:32:42,964
really all about sci fi and fantasy

895
00:32:43,424 --> 00:32:45,744
and and and poetry. Those were kinda the

896
00:32:45,744 --> 00:32:46,964
big ones in my house.

897
00:32:47,369 --> 00:32:50,009
And so I got to read things that

898
00:32:50,009 --> 00:32:52,569
had I paid attention to the sticker Yeah.

899
00:32:52,650 --> 00:32:54,569
May not have picked up. And and I

900
00:32:54,569 --> 00:32:56,970
don't like the limitation of that, but I

901
00:32:56,970 --> 00:32:59,695
understand why it's there, but I just it's

902
00:32:59,695 --> 00:33:01,215
like, why do we have to always put

903
00:33:01,215 --> 00:33:03,394
this caveat on things? Like, oh,

904
00:33:03,695 --> 00:33:05,775
you're not you're not smart enough or you're

905
00:33:05,775 --> 00:33:08,255
not articulated enough to to be able to

906
00:33:08,255 --> 00:33:10,494
grasp this. It's like, let's give somebody a

907
00:33:10,494 --> 00:33:12,460
chance. Yeah. No. I agree with that because

908
00:33:12,460 --> 00:33:14,460
I was let's say to my students, like,

909
00:33:14,460 --> 00:33:16,079
you know what makes you uncomfortable.

910
00:33:16,779 --> 00:33:18,480
If this is making you uncomfortable,

911
00:33:18,859 --> 00:33:21,339
stop reading it. But but the person sitting

912
00:33:21,339 --> 00:33:23,419
next to you, they they're fine with it.

913
00:33:23,419 --> 00:33:25,815
Right? Or kids run over and say, mister

914
00:33:25,815 --> 00:33:27,734
Shue, look at this word. It's in this

915
00:33:27,734 --> 00:33:29,654
book. And, oh my goodness, how can this

916
00:33:29,654 --> 00:33:31,174
word be in this book? And I say,

917
00:33:31,174 --> 00:33:33,015
well, then don't read it. If you but

918
00:33:33,015 --> 00:33:35,335
they weren't upset. They just wanted to tattle

919
00:33:35,335 --> 00:33:37,830
on the book. Right. That's a great lesson

920
00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:39,750
in life. If you don't like it, don't

921
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:41,190
do it. If you don't wanna read it,

922
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:42,390
don't read it. If you don't wanna watch

923
00:33:42,390 --> 00:33:43,910
it, don't watch it. If you don't wanna

924
00:33:43,910 --> 00:33:45,830
sleep with that person, don't sleep with it.

925
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:47,349
If you don't wanna have an abortion, don't

926
00:33:47,349 --> 00:33:49,049
have an abortion. It's so easy.

927
00:33:49,694 --> 00:33:50,914
Yeah. That's my philosophy.

928
00:33:51,294 --> 00:33:53,875
Yeah. So here's a here's a hot question.

929
00:33:54,335 --> 00:33:55,714
If you're reading a book

930
00:33:56,255 --> 00:33:57,954
and you don't like it,

931
00:33:58,494 --> 00:34:00,095
will you stop reading it or will you

932
00:34:00,095 --> 00:34:02,095
power it through? Yes. Oh, I love that

933
00:34:02,095 --> 00:34:04,220
question. So I used to have this rule

934
00:34:04,220 --> 00:34:06,859
that I so disagree with now, which is

935
00:34:06,859 --> 00:34:08,539
I will read if it's a novel or

936
00:34:08,539 --> 00:34:10,619
if it has more than 50 pages, I

937
00:34:10,619 --> 00:34:12,699
will read at least 50 pages. And if

938
00:34:12,699 --> 00:34:15,019
I make the decision that I still am

939
00:34:15,019 --> 00:34:17,574
not enjoying it after 50 pages, you have

940
00:34:17,574 --> 00:34:20,454
permission to abandon the book. And now I'll

941
00:34:20,454 --> 00:34:23,195
abandon on the first sentence, the first page,

942
00:34:23,894 --> 00:34:25,755
in the middle of the first chapter.

943
00:34:26,135 --> 00:34:27,755
But I'm also a mood reader.

944
00:34:28,055 --> 00:34:29,574
And so if there's a book that I've

945
00:34:29,574 --> 00:34:31,880
abandoned after the first page, but then everyone

946
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,800
is talking about it, I'll give it a

947
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,739
second chance, but I'm usually right.

948
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:38,599
Yeah. I don't finish a book if I'm

949
00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:40,440
not into it. There's so many books that

950
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,440
I would be into. Why waste my time?

951
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,519
Yeah. But so many people will, though. Like,

952
00:34:44,519 --> 00:34:46,235
my my best friend that I actually met

953
00:34:46,235 --> 00:34:46,974
in the hospital,

954
00:34:47,434 --> 00:34:48,894
when I was hospitalized for

955
00:34:49,195 --> 00:34:51,914
for for disordered eating, will always finish a

956
00:34:51,914 --> 00:34:53,614
book even if she's miserable.

957
00:34:54,394 --> 00:34:57,114
Like, stop. Life is too short. Life is

958
00:34:57,114 --> 00:34:59,195
too short. There are so many great books

959
00:34:59,195 --> 00:35:02,400
out there. Yeah. What's your opinion on Audible

960
00:35:02,539 --> 00:35:03,280
type books?

961
00:35:03,820 --> 00:35:05,739
Oh, I love I love when people read

962
00:35:05,739 --> 00:35:07,840
with their ears. It's real reading.

963
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:10,460
I struggle though because I don't have a

964
00:35:10,460 --> 00:35:13,235
great attention span, and I find that my

965
00:35:13,235 --> 00:35:15,315
brain is going all over the place, and

966
00:35:15,315 --> 00:35:16,835
and then I'll have to, like, go back

967
00:35:16,835 --> 00:35:19,715
a few chapters. But something that that used

968
00:35:19,715 --> 00:35:21,235
to help me, I no longer have a

969
00:35:21,235 --> 00:35:22,914
commute like I used to, but I would

970
00:35:22,914 --> 00:35:25,000
always listen to audio books, but I would

971
00:35:25,079 --> 00:35:26,920
going back and forth to school, but I'd

972
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,340
always have the physical book on the passenger

973
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,980
seat. And I would like move the bookmark

974
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:33,099
at stoplights,

975
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:35,880
and that would help me stay focused. Oh,

976
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,485
I love that. That was a strategy. But

977
00:35:38,485 --> 00:35:40,505
my book Louder Than Hunger has an audiobook.

978
00:35:40,644 --> 00:35:41,864
Oh, it does? Okay.

979
00:35:42,164 --> 00:35:45,125
It's so well done. Jeff Ebner reads it.

980
00:35:45,125 --> 00:35:46,184
I read the dedications

981
00:35:46,565 --> 00:35:48,105
and my author's note,

982
00:35:48,485 --> 00:35:50,405
and I didn't think I'd be able to

983
00:35:50,405 --> 00:35:51,545
listen to the audiobook.

984
00:35:51,860 --> 00:35:53,699
But I'm so grateful I did. And I

985
00:35:53,699 --> 00:35:56,679
had a catharsis listening to it. I sobbed.

986
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:59,140
The story felt as real as it's ever

987
00:35:59,140 --> 00:36:01,300
felt while listening to somebody read me my

988
00:36:01,300 --> 00:36:01,800
story.

989
00:36:02,099 --> 00:36:04,420
He reads it almost like a play. It's

990
00:36:04,420 --> 00:36:05,480
really, really good.

991
00:36:06,675 --> 00:36:07,815
What was it like

992
00:36:08,195 --> 00:36:10,355
when you discovered you were a New York

993
00:36:10,355 --> 00:36:12,775
Times best selling author? How surreal

994
00:36:13,235 --> 00:36:14,215
was that moment?

995
00:36:14,835 --> 00:36:16,755
Oh, thank you for asking that. I was

996
00:36:16,755 --> 00:36:17,655
in El Paso,

997
00:36:18,195 --> 00:36:19,974
doing a week of school visits,

998
00:36:20,340 --> 00:36:20,780
and,

999
00:36:21,220 --> 00:36:22,980
the the day that that I became a

1000
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:25,220
New York Times bestselling author, I'd spent the

1001
00:36:25,220 --> 00:36:26,920
day with 6th and 7th graders,

1002
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:28,980
and I decided to turn off my phone

1003
00:36:28,980 --> 00:36:31,860
all day because I'd been hoping for it.

1004
00:36:31,860 --> 00:36:33,460
And I'd been putting it out into the

1005
00:36:33,460 --> 00:36:35,835
universe, but I was feeling guilty for hoping

1006
00:36:35,835 --> 00:36:37,934
for it. But it's something that I just,

1007
00:36:37,994 --> 00:36:39,594
I felt like this was the book that

1008
00:36:39,594 --> 00:36:41,534
I thought I had the best chance for.

1009
00:36:41,675 --> 00:36:43,914
And so I finally turned on my phone

1010
00:36:43,914 --> 00:36:45,695
as I was coming out of the school,

1011
00:36:45,835 --> 00:36:48,335
and I spotted this child who looked really

1012
00:36:48,710 --> 00:36:49,210
lonely

1013
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:51,589
and really upset, and I went over to

1014
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:53,750
them and I chatted with them, and I

1015
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:55,829
ended up giving them a pen out of

1016
00:36:55,829 --> 00:36:56,329
my

1017
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:57,130
pouch,

1018
00:36:57,670 --> 00:36:59,589
and I signed the pen for them and

1019
00:36:59,589 --> 00:37:01,769
encouraged them to write down their feelings,

1020
00:37:02,355 --> 00:37:04,355
and had this good moment, but I was

1021
00:37:04,355 --> 00:37:05,815
really worried about them

1022
00:37:06,195 --> 00:37:08,034
and had thought I gotta email their their

1023
00:37:08,034 --> 00:37:10,135
librarian once I get back to the hotel

1024
00:37:10,355 --> 00:37:12,195
and say, can you check-in on this student

1025
00:37:12,195 --> 00:37:14,355
tomorrow? So anyway, as soon as I left

1026
00:37:14,355 --> 00:37:16,500
that child is when I saw that I'd

1027
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:18,420
become a New York Times best selling author.

1028
00:37:18,420 --> 00:37:20,200
So it just felt like the right moment.

1029
00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:22,519
I just had an interaction with a child.

1030
00:37:22,660 --> 00:37:24,599
I sat in my car and I cried.

1031
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:26,820
And then I decided not to tell anyone

1032
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:28,945
for an hour because I just wanted to

1033
00:37:28,945 --> 00:37:30,625
carry it with me and just let it

1034
00:37:30,625 --> 00:37:32,085
be my own private thing.

1035
00:37:32,464 --> 00:37:34,324
I love that. Well, congratulations.

1036
00:37:34,625 --> 00:37:37,264
Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. It's

1037
00:37:37,264 --> 00:37:38,724
such a it's a beautiful

1038
00:37:39,025 --> 00:37:40,565
it's a beautiful acknowledgement

1039
00:37:41,184 --> 00:37:43,045
for somebody who I think

1040
00:37:43,530 --> 00:37:45,449
speaking with you for this short amount of

1041
00:37:45,449 --> 00:37:45,949
time,

1042
00:37:46,410 --> 00:37:49,150
it's clear that your passion and your love

1043
00:37:50,570 --> 00:37:53,369
for writing and being present in the world

1044
00:37:53,369 --> 00:37:55,610
and being there for decades, it's all there.

1045
00:37:55,610 --> 00:37:57,469
So it's lovely to be recognized.

1046
00:37:58,125 --> 00:38:00,605
No. It's the biggest honor. Like, I I

1047
00:38:00,605 --> 00:38:02,545
love school visits more than anything.

1048
00:38:03,005 --> 00:38:05,105
I feel like I'm still a school librarian

1049
00:38:05,164 --> 00:38:07,005
just without my own library. I get to

1050
00:38:07,005 --> 00:38:08,925
do my favorite part about being a being

1051
00:38:08,925 --> 00:38:11,664
a school librarian, which is connecting with kids

1052
00:38:12,050 --> 00:38:13,190
and seeing them.

1053
00:38:13,650 --> 00:38:14,630
And I think,

1054
00:38:14,929 --> 00:38:16,389
really, a lot of my presentations

1055
00:38:16,929 --> 00:38:19,409
could be called a cautionary tale, how to

1056
00:38:19,409 --> 00:38:21,409
look for the Jakes of the world. Jake

1057
00:38:21,409 --> 00:38:23,250
is is the main character of Louder Than

1058
00:38:23,250 --> 00:38:25,295
Hunger. I used to not admit it, but

1059
00:38:25,295 --> 00:38:27,214
I I have this ability just to look

1060
00:38:27,214 --> 00:38:29,135
out and see which kid needs a little

1061
00:38:29,135 --> 00:38:31,614
boost and which kid needs somebody just to

1062
00:38:31,614 --> 00:38:33,614
come over and talk with them and and

1063
00:38:33,614 --> 00:38:35,855
see them and to see inside of their

1064
00:38:35,855 --> 00:38:36,300
hearts.

1065
00:38:36,860 --> 00:38:38,079
And after presentations,

1066
00:38:38,539 --> 00:38:40,940
the librarians and teachers and principals will come

1067
00:38:40,940 --> 00:38:43,099
and say, did somebody, like, plant that? Did

1068
00:38:43,099 --> 00:38:45,340
you know? Like, that kid just lost their

1069
00:38:45,340 --> 00:38:47,739
mom or that kid is having a really

1070
00:38:47,739 --> 00:38:49,739
hard time adjusting because they've only been here

1071
00:38:49,739 --> 00:38:51,519
for a month and they don't know anybody.

1072
00:38:51,554 --> 00:38:52,914
They know I don't, but I can I

1073
00:38:52,914 --> 00:38:53,815
can see it?

1074
00:38:54,275 --> 00:38:56,675
Yeah. I just think it's being open. But

1075
00:38:56,675 --> 00:38:58,755
but for me, really, it it what helps

1076
00:38:58,755 --> 00:39:00,135
me is, again, rent,

1077
00:39:00,835 --> 00:39:03,074
is before I go into a school or

1078
00:39:03,074 --> 00:39:04,775
before I go into a presentation,

1079
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:07,719
I always listen to No Day But Today,

1080
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:10,900
which is what Adena Minzel calls her version

1081
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:12,739
No Day But Today, but it's the song

1082
00:39:12,739 --> 00:39:14,659
Another Day in Rent. And I always say

1083
00:39:14,659 --> 00:39:16,579
to myself, No Day But Today, no moment

1084
00:39:16,579 --> 00:39:18,974
but right now. Just be fully present and

1085
00:39:18,974 --> 00:39:21,635
don't worry about everything else that's going on.

1086
00:39:21,855 --> 00:39:23,534
And and we can get back to that

1087
00:39:23,534 --> 00:39:25,295
when you leave this school, but that's that's

1088
00:39:25,295 --> 00:39:26,434
how I stay grounded.

1089
00:39:27,054 --> 00:39:28,275
Yeah. I think,

1090
00:39:28,574 --> 00:39:30,835
likely, the reason why you have that magical

1091
00:39:30,894 --> 00:39:32,674
ability is because you learned

1092
00:39:33,349 --> 00:39:35,369
that your own pain was worth

1093
00:39:36,070 --> 00:39:38,150
helping. You know? You learned that you were

1094
00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:38,650
worthwhile

1095
00:39:38,949 --> 00:39:40,949
enough to be heard because you have to

1096
00:39:40,949 --> 00:39:43,190
hear yourself too as a kid. You have

1097
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:43,690
to

1098
00:39:44,469 --> 00:39:44,969
decide

1099
00:39:45,269 --> 00:39:48,114
that you're worth sticking around for. It's a

1100
00:39:48,275 --> 00:39:50,695
Yeah. It's a tricky little line to cross.

1101
00:39:50,835 --> 00:39:52,454
Yeah. I didn't want to.

1102
00:39:52,914 --> 00:39:54,215
I end my presentations

1103
00:39:54,515 --> 00:39:57,394
with the 7th 8th graders by reading aloud

1104
00:39:57,394 --> 00:39:59,235
a poem that I wrote for adults in

1105
00:39:59,235 --> 00:40:01,494
which there is no Jay. It's all John.

1106
00:40:01,579 --> 00:40:03,099
As you've seen, it's hard for me, like,

1107
00:40:03,099 --> 00:40:05,260
I go back and forth between saying myself

1108
00:40:05,260 --> 00:40:07,659
and Jake, but we're we're all 1. And

1109
00:40:07,659 --> 00:40:09,739
in that poem, I share with kids that

1110
00:40:09,739 --> 00:40:11,659
when I was 14, I went on the

1111
00:40:11,659 --> 00:40:13,659
Oprah Winfrey Show. And a lot of them

1112
00:40:13,659 --> 00:40:15,340
don't know who Oprah is, but I I

1113
00:40:15,340 --> 00:40:17,045
know I I tell them in a moment

1114
00:40:17,045 --> 00:40:19,045
as much as I can about Oprah, mostly

1115
00:40:19,045 --> 00:40:21,364
focusing on Oprah Winfrey loves books, and she

1116
00:40:21,364 --> 00:40:23,444
has a book club. And I told Oprah

1117
00:40:23,444 --> 00:40:25,684
that I never wanted to get better because

1118
00:40:25,684 --> 00:40:27,864
I didn't think I could ever get better.

1119
00:40:28,085 --> 00:40:29,684
And a lot of kids, when I read

1120
00:40:29,684 --> 00:40:30,904
that part, say, woah.

1121
00:40:31,250 --> 00:40:33,089
Like, that I that I that I said

1122
00:40:33,089 --> 00:40:34,929
that out loud, that I didn't think I

1123
00:40:34,929 --> 00:40:36,690
would ever be able to to turn off

1124
00:40:36,690 --> 00:40:38,690
that voice. But for them to be able

1125
00:40:38,690 --> 00:40:40,609
to see there is a way through, and

1126
00:40:40,609 --> 00:40:42,690
there is a path through, and that there

1127
00:40:42,690 --> 00:40:44,369
is a way to find joy again in

1128
00:40:44,369 --> 00:40:46,530
your life. And I tie it then back

1129
00:40:46,530 --> 00:40:49,644
to that it's musicals and music and theater

1130
00:40:49,945 --> 00:40:50,844
and story.

1131
00:40:51,224 --> 00:40:53,784
So Yeah. And whatever that sense. Yeah. It

1132
00:40:53,784 --> 00:40:55,945
did. And whatever that but I really believe

1133
00:40:55,945 --> 00:40:57,945
you again, you have to walk through a

1134
00:40:57,945 --> 00:40:59,945
fire so you see other people walking through

1135
00:40:59,945 --> 00:41:00,605
their fire.

1136
00:41:01,099 --> 00:41:03,280
This is like everyone has a battle.

1137
00:41:03,579 --> 00:41:06,539
Every single human being, no matter how together

1138
00:41:06,539 --> 00:41:07,599
they might seem,

1139
00:41:08,300 --> 00:41:09,760
is going through something.

1140
00:41:11,019 --> 00:41:13,574
Yeah. It's such an important message. And you

1141
00:41:13,574 --> 00:41:15,994
have a new book coming out. I do.

1142
00:41:16,054 --> 00:41:17,655
So I have a a book coming out.

1143
00:41:17,655 --> 00:41:19,655
It's very different from Louder Than Hunger. Yeah.

1144
00:41:19,655 --> 00:41:21,815
I'll I'll I know your, listeners won't be

1145
00:41:21,815 --> 00:41:23,414
able to see it, but it's called Ruthie

1146
00:41:23,414 --> 00:41:24,875
Rose's Big Idea.

1147
00:41:25,369 --> 00:41:27,289
And it's about a little girl named Ruthie

1148
00:41:27,289 --> 00:41:29,849
Rose who wakes up with this big, bright,

1149
00:41:29,849 --> 00:41:31,070
beautiful idea.

1150
00:41:31,690 --> 00:41:34,489
And her big, bright, beautiful idea, I didn't

1151
00:41:34,489 --> 00:41:36,570
know for a long time. But this little

1152
00:41:36,570 --> 00:41:38,489
girl kept telling me she had this big,

1153
00:41:38,489 --> 00:41:40,815
bright, beautiful idea. So I had to write

1154
00:41:40,815 --> 00:41:42,414
the book in order to figure out what

1155
00:41:42,414 --> 00:41:44,675
it is, and I'll spoil it and share.

1156
00:41:44,734 --> 00:41:46,974
Her big, bright, beautiful idea is to create

1157
00:41:46,974 --> 00:41:47,635
a poetry

1158
00:41:48,014 --> 00:41:50,914
place within her school, which is a space

1159
00:41:50,974 --> 00:41:53,534
for kids to come together and share their

1160
00:41:53,534 --> 00:41:54,914
passions and interests

1161
00:41:55,389 --> 00:41:57,469
and to connect through poetry. I love the

1162
00:41:57,469 --> 00:41:57,969
illustrations.

1163
00:41:58,590 --> 00:42:01,150
Oh, aren't they wonderful? Yeah. Holly Haddam is

1164
00:42:01,150 --> 00:42:01,969
the illustrator.

1165
00:42:02,269 --> 00:42:03,489
They're they're so vibrant.

1166
00:42:03,869 --> 00:42:05,409
They, like, jump off the page.

1167
00:42:05,710 --> 00:42:06,769
Yeah. Really beautiful.

1168
00:42:07,164 --> 00:42:09,484
How is that as a as somebody who

1169
00:42:09,484 --> 00:42:12,125
writes books that oh, god. They're gorgeous. Who

1170
00:42:12,125 --> 00:42:14,525
write books that have images in them? What

1171
00:42:14,525 --> 00:42:16,525
is that kind of process in finding an

1172
00:42:16,525 --> 00:42:19,565
illustrator like? Yeah. It's that's the, like, most

1173
00:42:19,565 --> 00:42:21,264
exciting part of the process.

1174
00:42:21,929 --> 00:42:25,469
It's different for different publishing houses, different contracts,

1175
00:42:25,690 --> 00:42:27,050
but the way that I do it with

1176
00:42:27,050 --> 00:42:28,969
my editor is when we're done with a

1177
00:42:28,969 --> 00:42:31,389
manuscript, we say, okay, this is the final.

1178
00:42:31,849 --> 00:42:33,929
I go away, and I create, like, a

1179
00:42:33,929 --> 00:42:34,429
portfolio

1180
00:42:34,889 --> 00:42:37,094
in some ways of people's art,

1181
00:42:37,574 --> 00:42:39,494
and I share it with her and the

1182
00:42:39,494 --> 00:42:39,994
justification

1183
00:42:40,534 --> 00:42:42,375
for why I think each of those artists

1184
00:42:42,375 --> 00:42:43,894
would be good for the book. And then

1185
00:42:43,894 --> 00:42:46,295
she does the same. And almost every time

1186
00:42:46,295 --> 00:42:48,554
there's one person we both have picked,

1187
00:42:49,414 --> 00:42:51,835
and then we hope that person says yes.

1188
00:42:52,190 --> 00:42:53,950
So, yeah, I've been I've been very lucky.

1189
00:42:53,950 --> 00:42:56,349
All the illustrators of each book are are

1190
00:42:56,349 --> 00:42:57,650
are magical and wonderful.

1191
00:42:58,190 --> 00:42:59,710
Yeah. I love it. Why do you go

1192
00:42:59,710 --> 00:43:01,950
to New York to write? Why there? Yeah.

1193
00:43:01,950 --> 00:43:04,829
Well, it it it's really because of the

1194
00:43:04,829 --> 00:43:06,050
Bethesda Fountain

1195
00:43:06,349 --> 00:43:07,570
in Central Park.

1196
00:43:08,304 --> 00:43:10,945
I learned about the Bethesda Fountain from Tony

1197
00:43:10,945 --> 00:43:12,565
Kushner's Angels in America.

1198
00:43:13,105 --> 00:43:15,105
Not through everything Well, I've now seen the

1199
00:43:15,105 --> 00:43:15,605
play,

1200
00:43:15,985 --> 00:43:18,545
on stage, but through the miniseries that had

1201
00:43:18,545 --> 00:43:20,864
Meryl Streep and lots of other actors like,

1202
00:43:21,344 --> 00:43:23,809
Emma Thompson. I was just fascinated

1203
00:43:24,430 --> 00:43:25,970
with the opening sequence

1204
00:43:26,430 --> 00:43:29,710
that always ended with the angel's face, and

1205
00:43:29,710 --> 00:43:32,590
then the angel turns and looks at you

1206
00:43:32,590 --> 00:43:34,530
in this really interesting way.

1207
00:43:34,905 --> 00:43:37,244
And I would, like, watch that on repeat.

1208
00:43:37,545 --> 00:43:39,385
And I had never been to New York

1209
00:43:39,385 --> 00:43:41,304
before at the time, but remember saying, one

1210
00:43:41,304 --> 00:43:42,824
day, I'm gonna go to New York, and

1211
00:43:42,824 --> 00:43:45,144
I'm gonna visit this statue. But I didn't

1212
00:43:45,144 --> 00:43:46,905
know that that statue would end up being

1213
00:43:46,905 --> 00:43:48,525
like a muse for me.

1214
00:43:48,980 --> 00:43:51,059
And whenever I'm stuck, I go there and

1215
00:43:51,059 --> 00:43:52,739
I talk to that statue, and I do

1216
00:43:52,739 --> 00:43:53,639
a lot of prewriting

1217
00:43:54,099 --> 00:43:56,599
sitting next to the statue. The walk from

1218
00:43:56,739 --> 00:43:58,980
where I stay in in Manhattan, I would

1219
00:43:58,980 --> 00:44:00,519
stay at 46th in Broadway.

1220
00:44:00,914 --> 00:44:03,394
The walk from there to Bethesda Fountain, I'm,

1221
00:44:03,394 --> 00:44:05,954
like, clearing my brain and opening my heart,

1222
00:44:05,954 --> 00:44:07,175
I always tell kids.

1223
00:44:07,554 --> 00:44:10,035
But then I spent so much time with

1224
00:44:10,035 --> 00:44:12,355
Bethesda when I was working on Louder Than

1225
00:44:12,355 --> 00:44:15,015
Hunger that Bethesda becomes the character

1226
00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:17,420
in Louder Than Hunger, but I had to

1227
00:44:17,420 --> 00:44:20,859
change the name from Bethesda to Frieden because

1228
00:44:20,859 --> 00:44:22,480
I do not live in New York City.

1229
00:44:22,859 --> 00:44:25,099
Weird. Like, I walk in the park here

1230
00:44:25,099 --> 00:44:26,940
and all that, and it's lovely, and there's

1231
00:44:26,940 --> 00:44:28,855
dogs, and it's fun and all that. But

1232
00:44:28,855 --> 00:44:31,815
there is something maybe it's because so many

1233
00:44:31,815 --> 00:44:32,715
riders have

1234
00:44:33,175 --> 00:44:35,494
walked that park and their energy is there

1235
00:44:35,494 --> 00:44:38,235
or something. Yeah. But there is something

1236
00:44:38,614 --> 00:44:41,815
extra about walking through Central Park as far

1237
00:44:41,815 --> 00:44:42,954
as it eliciting

1238
00:44:44,090 --> 00:44:44,989
this creative

1239
00:44:46,250 --> 00:44:46,750
being

1240
00:44:47,050 --> 00:44:47,550
of

1241
00:44:48,090 --> 00:44:48,989
just existence.

1242
00:44:49,690 --> 00:44:52,510
Especially in October when the leaves are changing.

1243
00:44:52,969 --> 00:44:54,969
That that's my favorite. You're wearing a coat.

1244
00:44:54,969 --> 00:44:56,329
I don't like it as much when it's

1245
00:44:56,329 --> 00:44:58,250
a 100 degrees. No. It's not fun when

1246
00:44:58,250 --> 00:44:58,909
it's hot.

1247
00:44:59,214 --> 00:45:01,875
Right? It's very hot in California right now.

1248
00:45:01,934 --> 00:45:04,574
It's hot. So very hot. No. The fall

1249
00:45:04,655 --> 00:45:06,434
I mean, the fall is the best everywhere.

1250
00:45:07,295 --> 00:45:08,675
Yeah. I love fall. Chicago

1251
00:45:09,375 --> 00:45:11,474
Chicago spring though is perfection.

1252
00:45:12,309 --> 00:45:14,630
Chicago's It's become shorter and shorter, but, yeah,

1253
00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:16,710
I do love it. Tell people how they

1254
00:45:16,710 --> 00:45:18,389
might find you or how they can get

1255
00:45:18,549 --> 00:45:20,069
you know, you've written a ton of books

1256
00:45:20,069 --> 00:45:22,069
now, and you you do the touring and

1257
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:24,150
you talk, and you've got all this stuff

1258
00:45:24,150 --> 00:45:26,230
going on. What's the best way for people

1259
00:45:26,230 --> 00:45:28,555
to follow you? Yeah. So the best way

1260
00:45:28,555 --> 00:45:30,494
is, my name, johnshu,

1261
00:45:31,275 --> 00:45:33,275
j o h n s c h u

1262
00:45:33,275 --> 00:45:35,355
dot com. And then that has links to

1263
00:45:35,355 --> 00:45:37,055
all the ways to to connect.

1264
00:45:37,594 --> 00:45:39,135
Yeah. I'll put stuff on heyhumanpodcast.com

1265
00:45:40,074 --> 00:45:41,859
on their links page as well. There, it's

1266
00:45:41,859 --> 00:45:43,300
mine. I mean, I don't know who they

1267
00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:44,280
are. It's just

1268
00:45:45,380 --> 00:45:45,880
me.

1269
00:45:46,420 --> 00:45:48,659
All the people in my mind will put

1270
00:45:48,659 --> 00:45:50,500
that for you. They will do it for

1271
00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:53,480
you. Yeah. This is such a lovely conversation.

1272
00:45:54,019 --> 00:45:55,859
I'm Oh, thank you. Yeah. I'm really glad

1273
00:45:55,859 --> 00:45:57,594
you're out in the world doing this work.

1274
00:45:57,594 --> 00:45:58,335
I think it's incredibly

1275
00:45:59,114 --> 00:45:59,614
important.

1276
00:46:00,394 --> 00:46:02,074
Yeah. Thank you. And you too. I love

1277
00:46:02,074 --> 00:46:04,074
I love all I I I looked I

1278
00:46:04,074 --> 00:46:05,994
listened to a lot of episodes, but I

1279
00:46:05,994 --> 00:46:08,315
looked I read through every single description, which

1280
00:46:08,315 --> 00:46:09,695
I think is like a 194.

1281
00:46:10,750 --> 00:46:12,269
And I I love that you bring in

1282
00:46:12,269 --> 00:46:14,050
so many different types of people,

1283
00:46:14,430 --> 00:46:16,110
and I love that, like, I didn't know

1284
00:46:16,110 --> 00:46:17,869
what we were gonna talk about. That's my

1285
00:46:17,869 --> 00:46:20,289
favorite my favorite way to enter a conversation.

1286
00:46:20,829 --> 00:46:23,390
Mine too. I jot down a couple little

1287
00:46:23,390 --> 00:46:25,075
things that I wanna make sure I hit,

1288
00:46:25,075 --> 00:46:27,315
but I don't have questions. I don't yeah.

1289
00:46:27,315 --> 00:46:28,994
For me, it's important to just be present

1290
00:46:28,994 --> 00:46:30,295
in the conversation. Yeah.

1291
00:46:30,755 --> 00:46:32,675
Yeah. No day but today. No day but

1292
00:46:32,675 --> 00:46:33,494
today. Exactly.

1293
00:46:34,035 --> 00:46:35,335
And actually, it's 423

1294
00:46:36,275 --> 00:46:38,355
episodes. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I was

1295
00:46:38,355 --> 00:46:40,940
way off. No. It's okay. I think that

1296
00:46:40,940 --> 00:46:44,059
I the the iTunes one only shows you

1297
00:46:44,059 --> 00:46:45,119
a certain amount

1298
00:46:45,579 --> 00:46:47,260
at a time, but no. There's I've been

1299
00:46:47,260 --> 00:46:49,659
doing it 8 years. There's a ton. That's

1300
00:46:49,659 --> 00:46:51,440
amazing. It's a little bonkers.

1301
00:46:51,875 --> 00:46:54,194
Yeah. So and thank you, Molly. And Yes,

1302
00:46:54,194 --> 00:46:56,775
all. Thank you, Molly. Great. I wish you

1303
00:46:57,074 --> 00:46:59,875
so much success. And thank you for seeing

1304
00:46:59,875 --> 00:47:01,974
kids because it's so necessary.

1305
00:47:03,074 --> 00:47:04,914
Yeah. Like, I what you were saying about

1306
00:47:04,914 --> 00:47:06,619
being 17 in the library,

1307
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,599
I I would have like, that really that

1308
00:47:08,599 --> 00:47:11,179
really spoke to my heart that the librarian

1309
00:47:11,319 --> 00:47:13,159
knew to to not allow you just to

1310
00:47:13,319 --> 00:47:14,599
like a lot of times he would. You'd

1311
00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:16,359
say no. I want this kid to stay

1312
00:47:16,359 --> 00:47:19,105
here. They need more time to adjust. This

1313
00:47:19,105 --> 00:47:21,505
is the safe haven right now. And then

1314
00:47:21,505 --> 00:47:23,505
we'll take baby steps to get them out

1315
00:47:23,505 --> 00:47:25,184
of here, but she knew she knew you'd

1316
00:47:25,184 --> 00:47:25,844
be okay.

1317
00:47:26,144 --> 00:47:28,065
Yeah. And she gave me 2 weeks to

1318
00:47:28,065 --> 00:47:30,864
wallow in my fear and and then was

1319
00:47:30,864 --> 00:47:33,344
like, okay. That's good. Good. You'll be fine.

1320
00:47:33,344 --> 00:47:35,110
Let's do it. Yeah. Oh, and I'm glad

1321
00:47:35,110 --> 00:47:37,190
you worked. Yeah. But thank you. This is

1322
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:39,829
so much fun. Absolutely. And thank you for

1323
00:47:39,829 --> 00:47:42,710
listening, everybody, and thank you, John. Thank you.

1324
00:47:42,710 --> 00:47:45,449
Thank you, everyone. This is fantastic. Thank you.

1325
00:47:48,025 --> 00:47:50,664
Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human Podcast

1326
00:47:50,664 --> 00:47:52,925
on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

1327
00:47:53,224 --> 00:47:54,445
Thanks. Bye.