1 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,719 Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here. 2 00:00:10,719 --> 00:00:13,439 Thanks for listening to another episode of Hey, 3 00:00:13,439 --> 00:00:14,419 Human podcast. 4 00:00:16,054 --> 00:00:17,434 This is episode 427, 5 00:00:17,815 --> 00:00:20,454 and my guest is doctor Angela Myers. Angela 6 00:00:20,454 --> 00:00:23,835 is a prominent expert in polymathy studies, and 7 00:00:23,894 --> 00:00:27,414 polymath is a person with wide ranging knowledge 8 00:00:27,414 --> 00:00:29,399 and or studies. She's worked 9 00:00:29,699 --> 00:00:31,699 in the White House under the Bush and 10 00:00:31,699 --> 00:00:32,679 Obama presidencies, 11 00:00:33,380 --> 00:00:35,780 and she has a show on YouTube called 12 00:00:35,780 --> 00:00:36,280 Polymath's 13 00:00:36,659 --> 00:00:39,140 Place. I've been on her show. There's a 14 00:00:39,140 --> 00:00:41,159 link for that on my susanruth.com. 15 00:00:42,424 --> 00:00:45,384 Her work brought her to research polymaths in 16 00:00:45,384 --> 00:00:45,884 prison, 17 00:00:46,424 --> 00:00:48,364 and after interviewing the incarcerated, 18 00:00:48,744 --> 00:00:51,864 one in particular stood out. And now she 19 00:00:51,864 --> 00:00:54,585 has taken up another cause, fighting to free 20 00:00:54,585 --> 00:00:56,204 a man whose harsh sentencing 21 00:00:56,824 --> 00:00:57,725 as a teen 22 00:00:58,030 --> 00:01:00,449 has seen him spend decades behind bars. 23 00:01:00,909 --> 00:01:03,649 She's the founder of Help Free Shawn Rodriguez 24 00:01:04,430 --> 00:01:06,930 and also the Prison Transparency 25 00:01:07,390 --> 00:01:07,890 Project. 26 00:01:08,750 --> 00:01:09,969 Really interesting conversation. 27 00:01:10,430 --> 00:01:13,170 We have gotten together 3 times to interview, 28 00:01:13,814 --> 00:01:16,454 and there were glitches every single time. So 29 00:01:16,454 --> 00:01:18,875 fingers are crossed that everything worked out. 30 00:01:19,334 --> 00:01:21,994 General stuff. My film, the first, 31 00:01:22,295 --> 00:01:24,534 will be showing in various film festivals coming 32 00:01:24,534 --> 00:01:26,454 up. I just got back from one in 33 00:01:26,454 --> 00:01:26,954 Louisville 34 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:31,219 where it won 3 awards, including best fantasy 35 00:01:31,439 --> 00:01:32,819 and best costuming. 36 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,560 That's to add to my trompe l'oeil award 37 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:37,700 that I got in Portland. 38 00:01:38,159 --> 00:01:38,900 Coming up, 39 00:01:39,454 --> 00:01:42,015 there is the Midnight West Fest in Cheyenne, 40 00:01:42,015 --> 00:01:44,034 Wyoming, which takes place over 41 00:01:44,415 --> 00:01:46,894 October 4th 5th, and tickets are through their 42 00:01:46,894 --> 00:01:47,795 Facebook page. 43 00:01:48,495 --> 00:01:51,775 Scream Fest in Los Angeles, California, this festival 44 00:01:51,775 --> 00:01:53,954 runs from October 8th through 17th, 45 00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:56,530 and my film block is on Sunday, October 46 00:01:56,530 --> 00:01:57,750 13th at 8:45. 47 00:01:58,369 --> 00:02:01,430 It's at the famous Chinese theater in Hollywood. 48 00:02:01,810 --> 00:02:03,349 You can get tickets at screamfestla.com. 49 00:02:05,649 --> 00:02:08,625 The nightmares film festival in Columbus, Ohio is 50 00:02:08,625 --> 00:02:10,485 October 17th through 20th. 51 00:02:11,104 --> 00:02:13,985 My film block is Friday, October 18th at 52 00:02:13,985 --> 00:02:16,884 10 PM. Tickets are available at nightmares 53 00:02:17,344 --> 00:02:17,844 fest.com. 54 00:02:18,384 --> 00:02:20,164 Make sure to stick that s in there. 55 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,599 And the Rehoboth Beach International Film Festival in 56 00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:26,719 Rehoboth Beach, Delaware. I'm still hoping I'm saying 57 00:02:26,719 --> 00:02:29,360 that right. November 6th through 10th. Tickets are 58 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:30,900 available at rehobothfilm.com. 59 00:02:32,239 --> 00:02:33,139 That's rehoboth 60 00:02:34,925 --> 00:02:35,425 film.com. 61 00:02:36,284 --> 00:02:37,884 And I'll put links to all of that 62 00:02:37,884 --> 00:02:38,784 on my susanruth.com 63 00:02:39,485 --> 00:02:42,305 and post on Facebook. Still applying to festivals 64 00:02:42,764 --> 00:02:44,625 all over the place. I'll keep you updated. 65 00:02:45,405 --> 00:02:45,905 Susanruth.com, 66 00:02:46,365 --> 00:02:48,044 again, is a good place to keep up 67 00:02:48,044 --> 00:02:49,585 to date with that. Or 68 00:02:50,129 --> 00:02:51,349 if you're on Patreon 69 00:02:52,050 --> 00:02:53,030 are you on Patreon? 70 00:02:53,330 --> 00:02:55,669 Help keep, hey, human ad free. Yeah. 71 00:02:56,050 --> 00:02:58,150 Be a Patreon of Susan Ruth. 72 00:02:58,770 --> 00:03:02,129 It's under Susan Ruthism, s u s r 73 00:03:02,129 --> 00:03:03,889 u t wait. How do I spell my 74 00:03:03,889 --> 00:03:05,745 name? S u s a n r u 75 00:03:05,745 --> 00:03:08,064 t h I s m. Go check that 76 00:03:08,064 --> 00:03:11,204 out. I'm on YouTube under official Susan Ruth. 77 00:03:11,824 --> 00:03:13,044 TikTok, it's susanruthism. 78 00:03:13,745 --> 00:03:14,805 Check out heyhumanpodcast.com 79 00:03:15,745 --> 00:03:17,264 for links and to learn more about my 80 00:03:17,264 --> 00:03:19,370 guests and the show. Check out susanruth.com, 81 00:03:20,069 --> 00:03:21,750 as I mentioned, to learn more about me 82 00:03:21,750 --> 00:03:23,370 and my other artistic endeavors, 83 00:03:24,150 --> 00:03:27,270 and follow Susan Ruthism on social media. That's 84 00:03:27,270 --> 00:03:29,830 basically the the name I use. So if 85 00:03:29,830 --> 00:03:32,245 you are poking around on a social media, 86 00:03:32,245 --> 00:03:34,805 that's probably gonna find me. And find my 87 00:03:34,805 --> 00:03:37,604 music on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, wherever 88 00:03:37,604 --> 00:03:39,844 you get your music under Susan Ruth. Rate, 89 00:03:39,844 --> 00:03:42,485 review, and subscribe to Hey Human podcast on 90 00:03:42,485 --> 00:03:44,824 iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. 91 00:03:45,460 --> 00:03:46,439 Thank you for listening. 92 00:03:46,979 --> 00:03:49,719 Be well. Be kind. Be love. 93 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:51,400 Here we go. 94 00:03:52,819 --> 00:03:54,919 Angela Myers, welcome to Hey Human. 95 00:03:55,460 --> 00:03:57,715 Thank you very much for having me. It's 96 00:03:57,715 --> 00:04:00,375 nice to see you. I wanna start with 97 00:04:00,435 --> 00:04:01,974 where you grew up. 98 00:04:02,754 --> 00:04:04,694 Yes. I grew up in the San Francisco 99 00:04:04,835 --> 00:04:06,514 East Bay Area. I was born in Berkeley 100 00:04:06,514 --> 00:04:08,115 and grew up about 10 miles from there. 101 00:04:08,115 --> 00:04:09,650 Did you go to school there? I didn't 102 00:04:09,650 --> 00:04:11,650 go to college at UC Berkeley. I went 103 00:04:11,650 --> 00:04:14,129 to the University of Southern California in Los 104 00:04:14,129 --> 00:04:17,110 Angeles for undergrad and for my master's degree. 105 00:04:17,569 --> 00:04:18,470 Which was in? 106 00:04:19,089 --> 00:04:21,029 Undergrad, I double majored in psychology 107 00:04:21,410 --> 00:04:23,569 and communication, and then I got a master's 108 00:04:23,569 --> 00:04:26,214 degree in a field called communication management. I 109 00:04:26,214 --> 00:04:28,794 also have a doctorate from George Washington University 110 00:04:28,854 --> 00:04:30,634 too. Oh, is that all? 111 00:04:32,375 --> 00:04:34,454 And the doctorate is in it's an education 112 00:04:34,454 --> 00:04:35,414 degree. The exact, 113 00:04:35,894 --> 00:04:38,620 title is human and organizational learning. So you 114 00:04:38,620 --> 00:04:40,459 can see from my background, I just really 115 00:04:40,459 --> 00:04:44,060 people focused psychology, communication, education. Like, I I 116 00:04:44,060 --> 00:04:46,060 just love people, and so all my degrees 117 00:04:46,060 --> 00:04:47,199 were people oriented. 118 00:04:47,579 --> 00:04:49,120 Were you like that as a kid? 119 00:04:50,300 --> 00:04:52,879 Yeah. I think so. I was always, like, 120 00:04:53,485 --> 00:04:56,305 someone who liked to engage and talk and, 121 00:04:57,165 --> 00:04:59,245 yeah, I just always liked people. It was 122 00:04:59,245 --> 00:05:00,625 just innate in me. 123 00:05:00,925 --> 00:05:04,225 Mhmm. Yeah. And did you self study 124 00:05:04,605 --> 00:05:07,025 for a lot of things before you entered 125 00:05:07,870 --> 00:05:10,990 the world of higher learning? Did you were 126 00:05:10,990 --> 00:05:13,389 you one of those people, voracious readers and 127 00:05:13,709 --> 00:05:15,629 Yeah. Yeah. My I was raised by my 128 00:05:15,629 --> 00:05:18,350 grandparents and my dad. And my grandmother, who 129 00:05:18,350 --> 00:05:19,569 I was the closest with, 130 00:05:20,064 --> 00:05:22,084 was a voracious reader. She 131 00:05:22,384 --> 00:05:24,384 read about a book a day. Mhmm. And 132 00:05:24,384 --> 00:05:27,365 so growing up, we had many, many, many 133 00:05:27,824 --> 00:05:29,285 hundreds of trips to the bookstore, 134 00:05:29,824 --> 00:05:31,185 and she would always let me get any 135 00:05:31,185 --> 00:05:32,865 books I wanted. So I grew up being 136 00:05:32,865 --> 00:05:33,444 a reader, 137 00:05:34,039 --> 00:05:35,800 and I just self directed my own learning 138 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:37,720 for a long time, and that started pretty 139 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:39,639 early for me. That was the best, to 140 00:05:39,639 --> 00:05:41,740 be able to get any book you want. 141 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:42,539 No restrictions. 142 00:05:42,919 --> 00:05:44,539 Oh, my gosh. What a dream. 143 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,680 Yeah. She was very generous in that way. 144 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,199 And, you know, some of those books totally 145 00:05:48,199 --> 00:05:50,574 changed my life too. Like, there was one 146 00:05:50,574 --> 00:05:52,975 book I got this is pre Internet, mind 147 00:05:52,975 --> 00:05:54,435 you. I was born in 1981. 148 00:05:55,214 --> 00:05:58,035 So I think sometime in the early nineties, 149 00:05:58,095 --> 00:05:59,774 we were at a bookstore. I remember the 150 00:05:59,774 --> 00:06:01,875 exact bookstore in El Sobrante, California. 151 00:06:02,495 --> 00:06:02,995 And 152 00:06:03,310 --> 00:06:06,189 there was a section called, like, career or 153 00:06:06,189 --> 00:06:08,110 college or something like that. And they had 154 00:06:08,110 --> 00:06:10,110 these massive books. Imagine, like, a book that's 155 00:06:10,110 --> 00:06:12,689 about 8 inches thick. It was a directory. 156 00:06:12,750 --> 00:06:14,769 I got this directory of internships. 157 00:06:15,925 --> 00:06:17,605 And I took it home. I remember being 158 00:06:17,605 --> 00:06:20,125 about 12 and just, like, flipping through the 159 00:06:20,245 --> 00:06:21,865 all these listings of internships 160 00:06:22,405 --> 00:06:23,225 in the world, 161 00:06:23,605 --> 00:06:25,525 and I came across one that said White 162 00:06:25,525 --> 00:06:26,025 House. 163 00:06:26,405 --> 00:06:27,925 And I was it blew my mind that, 164 00:06:27,925 --> 00:06:30,185 like, the White House accepted lowly interns. 165 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,000 This was all pre Monica Lewinsky and stuff, 166 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,620 so I did Yeah. So 167 00:06:35,079 --> 00:06:36,139 that one book 168 00:06:36,759 --> 00:06:38,919 totally changed how my life turned out. I 169 00:06:38,919 --> 00:06:40,360 made my goal to be a White House 170 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:41,740 intern when I was 12. 171 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,279 And then when I was in my master's 172 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:46,060 degree program and I was 24, 173 00:06:46,795 --> 00:06:49,194 half a lifetime later at that point, I 174 00:06:49,194 --> 00:06:50,574 applied and I got in. 175 00:06:51,035 --> 00:06:53,595 And that totally changed the trajectory of how 176 00:06:53,595 --> 00:06:55,675 my life turned out. And what did you 177 00:06:55,675 --> 00:06:57,275 do at the White House? Well, I was 178 00:06:57,275 --> 00:06:59,355 an intern in the White House Fellows Office 179 00:06:59,355 --> 00:07:01,055 in the summer of 2,005. 180 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:03,779 George Bush was president at the time. 181 00:07:04,479 --> 00:07:06,160 And I had a great experience. I got 182 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:07,839 to rub elbows with a couple of people 183 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,879 who later became governors and CEOs and big 184 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:13,039 wigs, those White House Fellows really. You know, 185 00:07:13,039 --> 00:07:14,959 I mean, they're they're chosen because of their 186 00:07:14,959 --> 00:07:17,175 future promise, and a lot of them who 187 00:07:17,175 --> 00:07:18,774 I became friends with turned out to be, 188 00:07:18,774 --> 00:07:20,615 you know, movers and shakers in the world 189 00:07:20,615 --> 00:07:22,454 for sure. But I had to go back 190 00:07:22,454 --> 00:07:24,774 to Los Angeles to finish my master's degree 191 00:07:24,774 --> 00:07:26,154 after that White House internship, 192 00:07:26,615 --> 00:07:29,014 and I loved DC. So when I finished 193 00:07:29,014 --> 00:07:30,855 that master's degree, I didn't really wanna go 194 00:07:30,855 --> 00:07:32,454 back home to the Bay Area. So I 195 00:07:32,454 --> 00:07:33,870 pretty much just got in my car and 196 00:07:33,870 --> 00:07:35,649 drove to Washington DC, and 197 00:07:36,350 --> 00:07:37,790 I was in town looking for a job. 198 00:07:37,790 --> 00:07:39,949 I just naturally was drawn back to the 199 00:07:39,949 --> 00:07:41,550 White House Fellows office. I had had a 200 00:07:41,550 --> 00:07:42,449 really good rapport 201 00:07:42,990 --> 00:07:45,069 with Janet Eisenstadt, who was the director of 202 00:07:45,069 --> 00:07:46,830 the White House Fellows Program at the time. 203 00:07:46,830 --> 00:07:49,013 And I I was like, hey, I moved 204 00:07:49,013 --> 00:07:51,265 here. I live here. I'm looking for a 205 00:07:51,265 --> 00:07:53,517 job. Here's my resume. And she really did 206 00:07:53,517 --> 00:07:56,050 like me. Like, we're still, in periodic touch. 207 00:07:56,050 --> 00:07:58,302 She lives in the area. And, yeah, she 208 00:07:58,302 --> 00:08:00,554 did forward my resume around, and that led 209 00:08:00,554 --> 00:08:02,800 to me being hired at the executive office 210 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,600 of the president as a non political career 211 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,600 civil servant. So I was there regardless of 212 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,519 who was president, which was great. So I 213 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:11,379 was there for the historic transition 214 00:08:11,839 --> 00:08:14,000 to Obama, all of his first term, a 215 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,279 bit of his second term. It was such 216 00:08:15,279 --> 00:08:17,894 a cool gig. I loved it. But 217 00:08:19,154 --> 00:08:21,714 my real passion was learning and self improvement. 218 00:08:21,714 --> 00:08:23,714 I worked in the finance office there. Like, 219 00:08:23,714 --> 00:08:25,094 a lot of people don't know 220 00:08:25,634 --> 00:08:27,954 too that at the executive office the president, 221 00:08:27,954 --> 00:08:29,394 it's not just like the White House and 222 00:08:29,394 --> 00:08:30,839 a few people in the West Wing. Like, 223 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:32,679 there's about 3,000 people who work at the 224 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:33,659 White House complex, 225 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:36,039 if you include all the Secret Service and 226 00:08:36,039 --> 00:08:36,539 everything. 227 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:37,580 And, 228 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,620 I mean, it's a it's a big complex, 229 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:41,980 and it's a big, 230 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:43,659 you know, effort, 231 00:08:43,985 --> 00:08:46,625 including people who who stay no matter who's 232 00:08:46,625 --> 00:08:49,904 president. So people in finance, HR, IT, like, 233 00:08:49,904 --> 00:08:51,745 you gotta keep the office itself running. So 234 00:08:51,745 --> 00:08:53,745 I was one of those employees at the 235 00:08:53,745 --> 00:08:55,664 office of the president. I got so many 236 00:08:55,664 --> 00:08:58,304 cool experiences. I met presidents and went to 237 00:08:58,304 --> 00:09:01,240 cool events, and I'm always super grateful when 238 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,440 I think back on my time at the 239 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:04,200 executive office of the president. But my real 240 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,980 passion wasn't finance. It was self improvement, learning, 241 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:08,940 growth, evolution. 242 00:09:09,639 --> 00:09:11,580 So after almost 6 years 243 00:09:12,315 --> 00:09:14,075 working at the executive office of the president, 244 00:09:14,075 --> 00:09:15,754 I ended up moving over to a place 245 00:09:15,754 --> 00:09:17,695 called the Center For Leadership Development, 246 00:09:18,075 --> 00:09:21,035 and I managed training programs for learners from 247 00:09:21,035 --> 00:09:23,615 across the federal government almost for a decade. 248 00:09:23,995 --> 00:09:25,355 And while I was there, that's when I 249 00:09:25,355 --> 00:09:26,174 got my doctorate 250 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:29,180 in human and organizational learning as well. 251 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,840 What was something that surprised you as you 252 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,160 spent that time at the White House about 253 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,320 how it functions? Part of what I didn't 254 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:38,920 realize until I worked there was just how 255 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,514 big it was. I mean, the executive office 256 00:09:41,514 --> 00:09:43,595 of the president has, I think it's, like, 257 00:09:43,595 --> 00:09:44,495 10 or 12 258 00:09:44,875 --> 00:09:46,794 what they called or they still call, I'm 259 00:09:46,794 --> 00:09:47,615 sure, components. 260 00:09:48,315 --> 00:09:50,235 So within the executive office of the president, 261 00:09:50,235 --> 00:09:52,315 there's the White House, there's the office of 262 00:09:52,315 --> 00:09:54,920 the vice president, There's the office of administration, 263 00:09:55,300 --> 00:09:57,300 where I worked, the office of management and 264 00:09:57,300 --> 00:09:59,620 budget, the council of economic advisors, the office 265 00:09:59,620 --> 00:10:01,540 of national drug control policy, and on and 266 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:03,620 on and on. Like, the it's not just 267 00:10:03,620 --> 00:10:05,139 the White House. And I guess that was 268 00:10:05,139 --> 00:10:06,980 the thing I really learned when I got 269 00:10:06,980 --> 00:10:09,014 hired there is, like, it's not just a 270 00:10:09,014 --> 00:10:10,534 few people in the West Wing. Like, it's 271 00:10:10,534 --> 00:10:11,195 a whole 272 00:10:12,294 --> 00:10:12,794 system. 273 00:10:13,254 --> 00:10:15,095 And I was honored. I was really honored 274 00:10:15,095 --> 00:10:16,855 to be a part of that. Add you 275 00:10:16,855 --> 00:10:19,414 the opportunity to get to walk into the 276 00:10:19,414 --> 00:10:22,154 Oval Office. I've heard that that is breathtaking. 277 00:10:23,059 --> 00:10:24,820 Yeah. I've I've been in the Oval Office 278 00:10:24,820 --> 00:10:25,940 a lot of times, because one of the 279 00:10:25,940 --> 00:10:28,100 perks of working there was that I got 280 00:10:28,100 --> 00:10:29,940 to take friends and family on West Wing 281 00:10:29,940 --> 00:10:31,620 tours. Like, as an employee, I was able 282 00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:33,700 you know, and and there's especially under the 283 00:10:33,700 --> 00:10:34,600 Obama administration, 284 00:10:35,475 --> 00:10:38,434 they really encouraged staff to, like, take friends 285 00:10:38,434 --> 00:10:40,355 and family to see the Oval Office. And 286 00:10:40,355 --> 00:10:42,355 it was in evening hours and weekends. Like, 287 00:10:42,355 --> 00:10:44,434 it wasn't during work hours. But, yeah, I've 288 00:10:44,434 --> 00:10:46,274 seen the Oval Office many times. I've had 289 00:10:46,274 --> 00:10:49,009 lunch in the West Wing. I've rubbed elbows 290 00:10:49,009 --> 00:10:51,330 with big wigs periodically over there. And it 291 00:10:51,330 --> 00:10:53,590 was just a magical life changing experience. 292 00:10:54,129 --> 00:10:55,269 Is there a gravitas 293 00:10:55,809 --> 00:10:57,730 to it when you walk into a room 294 00:10:57,730 --> 00:10:59,750 like that with all the history? 295 00:11:00,865 --> 00:11:02,884 Yeah. There's an energy there. 296 00:11:03,664 --> 00:11:05,664 You feel I mean, even, like, the physical 297 00:11:05,664 --> 00:11:06,164 structures 298 00:11:07,105 --> 00:11:09,105 were impressive. And then some of them were 299 00:11:09,105 --> 00:11:10,725 also rinky dinky too. Like, 300 00:11:11,105 --> 00:11:12,404 the West Wing itself, 301 00:11:12,940 --> 00:11:14,700 you know, it sort of got built over 302 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:17,019 time. So the main part of the White 303 00:11:17,019 --> 00:11:20,160 House is like big and stately and presidential. 304 00:11:21,019 --> 00:11:22,940 And the West Wing, like the Oval Office 305 00:11:22,940 --> 00:11:25,500 is very stately and presidential, but there's also 306 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:28,375 like rinky dinky little offices and, like, rinky 307 00:11:28,375 --> 00:11:31,495 dinky little hallways. And, you know, there's in 308 00:11:31,495 --> 00:11:32,855 the the a lot of people don't know 309 00:11:32,855 --> 00:11:34,154 the press briefing room 310 00:11:34,855 --> 00:11:37,335 used to be an indoor swimming pool. So 311 00:11:37,335 --> 00:11:39,274 the press briefing room is built over 312 00:11:40,059 --> 00:11:41,820 what the the pool is still there. It's 313 00:11:41,820 --> 00:11:43,660 just they covered it up. So, yeah, I 314 00:11:43,660 --> 00:11:45,259 learned lots of cool little things about the 315 00:11:45,259 --> 00:11:47,440 history of that that building, and 316 00:11:47,899 --> 00:11:50,460 the office of administration included people who worked 317 00:11:50,460 --> 00:11:53,279 in facilities. So I my colleagues helped maintain 318 00:11:53,340 --> 00:11:54,940 the facilities of the West Wing. So I 319 00:11:54,940 --> 00:11:57,235 got to see, like, insider stuff from my 320 00:11:57,235 --> 00:11:59,554 buddies who worked in facilities, and it was 321 00:11:59,554 --> 00:12:01,715 just yeah. I got such an insider view 322 00:12:01,715 --> 00:12:02,534 of the presidency, 323 00:12:02,835 --> 00:12:04,595 which was such a cool way to start 324 00:12:04,595 --> 00:12:05,335 my career. 325 00:12:06,034 --> 00:12:08,434 Your description of the various rooms reminds me 326 00:12:08,434 --> 00:12:10,134 of that TikTok that says, 327 00:12:10,540 --> 00:12:11,600 look, a strawberry. 328 00:12:12,059 --> 00:12:13,920 Look, a strawberry. A strawberry. 329 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:17,500 Where it just gets progressively the dog gets 330 00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:18,320 more and more, 331 00:12:19,179 --> 00:12:19,679 hilariously. 332 00:12:22,220 --> 00:12:25,034 How did you start dipping your toe in 333 00:12:25,034 --> 00:12:26,334 the realm of polymathy? 334 00:12:26,875 --> 00:12:27,995 I don't even know if that's a word, 335 00:12:27,995 --> 00:12:30,394 but I'm gonna say it anyway. Polymathy. I 336 00:12:30,394 --> 00:12:32,495 haven't heard that one. I love it. Good. 337 00:12:34,314 --> 00:12:37,259 So for anyone who's listening, I let me 338 00:12:37,340 --> 00:12:39,899 just explain maybe what what polymathy is, and 339 00:12:39,899 --> 00:12:41,259 and I'll tell you how I got into 340 00:12:41,259 --> 00:12:42,240 it too. So 341 00:12:42,779 --> 00:12:45,500 polymathy means many learnings. It's being a Renaissance 342 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:48,799 person, multi capable. Lifelong life life wide learning. 343 00:12:49,434 --> 00:12:51,195 And the reason I got into it is 344 00:12:51,195 --> 00:12:53,274 because when I was in my thirties, I 345 00:12:53,274 --> 00:12:55,355 decided to get my doctorate in education. At 346 00:12:55,355 --> 00:12:56,095 that point, 347 00:12:56,475 --> 00:12:58,315 I had worked in the field of adult 348 00:12:58,315 --> 00:12:59,934 education in the federal government, 349 00:13:00,394 --> 00:13:01,934 and I wanted to have that 350 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,799 union card, that degree, that piece of paper 351 00:13:04,799 --> 00:13:07,679 that told me I was super legit, you 352 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:08,179 know? 353 00:13:08,959 --> 00:13:10,959 So I I decided to get a doctorate 354 00:13:10,959 --> 00:13:11,620 in education. 355 00:13:12,399 --> 00:13:14,480 The professors told us, pick something you're really 356 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,959 passionate about for your doctoral dissertation topic. It's 357 00:13:16,959 --> 00:13:19,184 not easy to complete a doctoral degree. I 358 00:13:19,184 --> 00:13:20,384 mean, you have to do research, you have 359 00:13:20,384 --> 00:13:21,585 to write a book, and there are a 360 00:13:21,585 --> 00:13:23,345 lot of people who become what they call 361 00:13:23,345 --> 00:13:24,964 ABD, all but dissertation, 362 00:13:25,664 --> 00:13:27,424 which is heartbreaking because you go through all 363 00:13:27,424 --> 00:13:29,904 the classes, the comprehensive exams, and then, like, 364 00:13:29,904 --> 00:13:32,009 to not get the degree is heartbreaking. So 365 00:13:32,169 --> 00:13:34,410 I really took their advice seriously. Like, I 366 00:13:34,410 --> 00:13:36,009 better pick something I care about because I 367 00:13:36,009 --> 00:13:37,549 really must finish this. 368 00:13:38,090 --> 00:13:40,570 And when I thought about what I cared 369 00:13:40,570 --> 00:13:42,649 about, what I was curious about, what I 370 00:13:42,649 --> 00:13:44,250 wanna be in my life, what I wanna 371 00:13:44,250 --> 00:13:44,750 understand, 372 00:13:46,345 --> 00:13:48,024 I I didn't know what it was called 373 00:13:48,024 --> 00:13:49,304 at the time. I thought it was, like, 374 00:13:49,304 --> 00:13:50,764 being a Renaissance woman. 375 00:13:51,545 --> 00:13:53,785 I thought maybe I could conceptualize it by 376 00:13:53,785 --> 00:13:55,085 calling it intrapersonal 377 00:13:55,545 --> 00:13:58,684 diversity, like, being diverse within your own personhood. 378 00:13:58,825 --> 00:14:00,904 And then eventually, I came across this very 379 00:14:00,904 --> 00:14:01,404 ancient 380 00:14:02,019 --> 00:14:03,799 and precise word called polymath. 381 00:14:04,899 --> 00:14:07,639 You know, polymath means many learnings. It was 382 00:14:07,779 --> 00:14:09,799 a word that was formed in ancient Greece. 383 00:14:10,179 --> 00:14:11,779 It's been around for a long time. Modern 384 00:14:11,779 --> 00:14:13,639 people don't really know that word, 385 00:14:14,065 --> 00:14:15,904 but it is a thing, even for modern 386 00:14:15,904 --> 00:14:18,004 living people. It's not just just for 387 00:14:18,625 --> 00:14:21,264 dead geniuses from history like Leonardo da Vinci 388 00:14:21,264 --> 00:14:21,764 or 389 00:14:22,144 --> 00:14:24,705 Benjamin Franklin or, like, the people that we 390 00:14:24,705 --> 00:14:26,644 typically have thought of as being 391 00:14:26,970 --> 00:14:27,470 polymaths. 392 00:14:28,169 --> 00:14:30,190 Like, modern people can be polymathic, 393 00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:33,370 and all of us can choose to lean 394 00:14:33,370 --> 00:14:36,649 into that capacity for lifelong and life wide 395 00:14:36,649 --> 00:14:38,570 learning. And it comes with a whole host 396 00:14:38,570 --> 00:14:39,455 of being 397 00:14:42,235 --> 00:14:42,735 alive. 398 00:14:43,754 --> 00:14:45,054 It's associated with 399 00:14:45,434 --> 00:14:46,894 authenticity and bravery. 400 00:14:47,835 --> 00:14:49,995 And, you know, when you have lots of 401 00:14:49,995 --> 00:14:51,134 tools in your toolkit 402 00:14:51,850 --> 00:14:54,250 and you're dealing with issues, you can often 403 00:14:54,250 --> 00:14:56,730 innovate at the intersection of multiple disciplines. You 404 00:14:56,730 --> 00:14:59,370 can do analogical thinking and take tools that 405 00:14:59,370 --> 00:15:00,889 work over here and apply them in a 406 00:15:00,889 --> 00:15:03,049 new way, and that's really how we get 407 00:15:03,049 --> 00:15:05,710 to innovation nowadays, which our world really needs. 408 00:15:06,075 --> 00:15:08,315 Like, in order to solve problems, we've gotta 409 00:15:08,315 --> 00:15:10,554 learn our way to them. And polymathy is 410 00:15:10,554 --> 00:15:12,815 a way of thinking about how we 411 00:15:13,514 --> 00:15:15,294 take in all the information, 412 00:15:15,835 --> 00:15:18,735 many learnings, rather than putting on the blinders 413 00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:20,009 of specialization, 414 00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:22,169 which has been the dominant narrative 415 00:15:22,709 --> 00:15:24,709 for my whole life, pretty much. We've lived 416 00:15:24,709 --> 00:15:26,709 in an age where the dominant narrative said, 417 00:15:26,709 --> 00:15:28,230 pick your one thing and be excellent at 418 00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:30,149 that. Get in the cage of specialization. Get 419 00:15:30,149 --> 00:15:32,250 in your swim lane. Get in that silo. 420 00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:34,169 And I just always felt like, 421 00:15:34,784 --> 00:15:37,024 why would I wanna do that with my 422 00:15:37,024 --> 00:15:37,524 life? 423 00:15:37,985 --> 00:15:39,764 No. I'm not I I refuse. 424 00:15:40,384 --> 00:15:42,884 My brain never was such that it could 425 00:15:42,945 --> 00:15:45,345 just do one thing. I was always drawn 426 00:15:45,345 --> 00:15:47,184 to something else. And those are the kinds 427 00:15:47,184 --> 00:15:49,345 of people I find most fascinating too, the 428 00:15:49,345 --> 00:15:50,519 the curious that 429 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,259 that walk through all the different fields. 430 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,279 Yeah. Exactly. To me, it's the natural way 431 00:15:56,279 --> 00:15:56,940 of being. 432 00:15:57,480 --> 00:15:59,960 Throughout most of human history, we were, you 433 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,519 know, versatile and adaptive. Like, that that was 434 00:16:02,519 --> 00:16:04,279 part of what made you more likely to 435 00:16:04,279 --> 00:16:04,779 survive, 436 00:16:05,195 --> 00:16:07,595 was being multi capable and having safety nets 437 00:16:07,595 --> 00:16:09,054 in your multi capacities. 438 00:16:10,075 --> 00:16:11,695 But in the age of specialization, 439 00:16:12,394 --> 00:16:14,815 Ford's assembly line and efficiency, 440 00:16:15,195 --> 00:16:17,195 and even as back as the Victorian era, 441 00:16:17,195 --> 00:16:20,014 we just as what we knew as 442 00:16:20,730 --> 00:16:23,929 knowledge grew and grew, humanity's response to that 443 00:16:23,929 --> 00:16:26,190 was, well, let's slice and dice it up. 444 00:16:26,330 --> 00:16:28,990 Mhmm. But there were unintended consequences of that. 445 00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:31,610 If everyone's wearing blinders, well, then who's really 446 00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:34,029 seeing the whole system and understanding the interdependencies? 447 00:16:34,409 --> 00:16:36,185 And I really think a lot of the 448 00:16:36,185 --> 00:16:38,125 reason we have a meta crisis today 449 00:16:38,985 --> 00:16:41,465 is because of the age of specialization, because 450 00:16:41,465 --> 00:16:43,465 everyone was thinking about their own little industry 451 00:16:43,465 --> 00:16:44,764 and not really considering 452 00:16:45,225 --> 00:16:47,545 the unintended consequences of what they were doing 453 00:16:47,545 --> 00:16:48,925 professionally or otherwise. 454 00:16:49,309 --> 00:16:51,709 And so now now I think there's a 455 00:16:51,709 --> 00:16:54,190 resurgence of wanting to go back to our 456 00:16:54,190 --> 00:16:55,009 full, versatile 457 00:16:56,029 --> 00:16:56,529 selves 458 00:16:57,629 --> 00:17:00,350 because we see that the narrow mindedness and 459 00:17:00,350 --> 00:17:01,009 the myopic 460 00:17:01,754 --> 00:17:03,535 viewpoints, and if everyone's 461 00:17:04,154 --> 00:17:05,934 specialized or even hyper specialized, 462 00:17:07,275 --> 00:17:09,115 it kind of makes us dumb in some 463 00:17:09,115 --> 00:17:11,295 ways as well. It makes us really smart 464 00:17:11,914 --> 00:17:13,355 in one thing and really dumb in a 465 00:17:13,355 --> 00:17:15,674 whole bunch of others. Or certainly ignorant. Ignorant. 466 00:17:15,674 --> 00:17:17,759 Ignorant is a better way of thinking of 467 00:17:17,759 --> 00:17:19,819 it. Yeah. While you were working on your 468 00:17:19,819 --> 00:17:20,319 dissertation, 469 00:17:21,259 --> 00:17:23,839 it's my understanding that the professor 470 00:17:24,140 --> 00:17:25,660 came to you, or maybe you had it 471 00:17:25,819 --> 00:17:28,000 the epiphany on your own that 472 00:17:28,460 --> 00:17:29,200 you were 473 00:17:29,674 --> 00:17:30,174 studying 474 00:17:30,554 --> 00:17:31,535 elite polymaths 475 00:17:31,994 --> 00:17:33,454 and realized that 476 00:17:33,835 --> 00:17:37,535 there are polymaths in other areas of humanity 477 00:17:38,315 --> 00:17:41,775 that don't get talked about or aren't investigated. 478 00:17:42,154 --> 00:17:43,375 Talk about that research. 479 00:17:44,349 --> 00:17:46,669 Yeah. So when I was working on the 480 00:17:46,669 --> 00:17:47,169 dissertation, 481 00:17:48,029 --> 00:17:49,549 of course, I was I was under the 482 00:17:49,549 --> 00:17:52,109 guidance of a committee and a committee chair. 483 00:17:52,109 --> 00:17:54,130 And, of course, when you're studying a phenomenon, 484 00:17:54,429 --> 00:17:56,669 especially at the doctoral level, you wanna find 485 00:17:56,669 --> 00:17:58,849 the strongest examples of that phenomenon 486 00:17:59,484 --> 00:18:01,244 so you can really understand the essence of 487 00:18:01,244 --> 00:18:01,744 it. 488 00:18:02,125 --> 00:18:04,684 So I was encouraged for my research to 489 00:18:04,684 --> 00:18:07,505 find, like, the most strong, capable, modern polymath, 490 00:18:08,444 --> 00:18:09,825 not celebrity level, 491 00:18:10,125 --> 00:18:12,684 but, like, real movers and shakers, people who 492 00:18:12,684 --> 00:18:14,639 had written books and given TED Talks and 493 00:18:14,639 --> 00:18:17,440 started companies and, like, across multiple industries had 494 00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:18,259 made contributions. 495 00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:20,799 So it was really cool to hear from 496 00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:21,299 them. 497 00:18:21,599 --> 00:18:23,539 But then at my dissertation defense, 498 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,179 one of my committee members said, 499 00:18:26,904 --> 00:18:29,644 you know, well, what about, like, the mechanic 500 00:18:30,025 --> 00:18:30,765 who gardens 501 00:18:31,144 --> 00:18:33,384 who knows how to change, you know, tile 502 00:18:33,384 --> 00:18:34,684 in the bathroom and 503 00:18:35,384 --> 00:18:37,785 change their oil? Like, what about those versions 504 00:18:37,785 --> 00:18:39,164 of polymathic intelligence? 505 00:18:39,625 --> 00:18:41,005 I sort of felt like 506 00:18:42,410 --> 00:18:43,309 my work was 507 00:18:43,609 --> 00:18:45,849 elitist, and, you know, he was right. Like, 508 00:18:45,849 --> 00:18:49,289 my dissertation was looking at highly accomplished elite 509 00:18:49,289 --> 00:18:49,789 polymaths 510 00:18:50,170 --> 00:18:51,849 and not the everyday versions of it. So 511 00:18:51,849 --> 00:18:52,829 I walked away 512 00:18:53,450 --> 00:18:55,609 from my defense feeling like I need to 513 00:18:55,609 --> 00:18:56,990 do work on 514 00:18:57,715 --> 00:19:00,275 the non elite, not fancy versions of how 515 00:19:00,275 --> 00:19:03,075 human polymathic intelligence can show up. So that 516 00:19:03,075 --> 00:19:04,755 was my goal. At that time, I didn't 517 00:19:04,755 --> 00:19:06,215 know how I would do 518 00:19:06,674 --> 00:19:08,835 it at first, but after reflecting on it, 519 00:19:08,835 --> 00:19:10,775 like, where's a non elite place 520 00:19:11,539 --> 00:19:14,179 where people are working on learning and self 521 00:19:14,179 --> 00:19:14,679 development, 522 00:19:16,019 --> 00:19:18,579 and maybe that has ties to creativity and 523 00:19:18,579 --> 00:19:21,140 innovation? And, like, I as I wracked my 524 00:19:21,140 --> 00:19:23,480 brain, I realized, oh, that's prison. 525 00:19:24,025 --> 00:19:25,325 Prison's non elite. 526 00:19:25,704 --> 00:19:28,984 It's associated with creativity and innovation under duress, 527 00:19:28,984 --> 00:19:31,944 like the kinds of scrappy creative solutions people 528 00:19:31,944 --> 00:19:33,724 come up with when they don't have resources 529 00:19:33,944 --> 00:19:36,525 are notable in a in a prison context. 530 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:39,720 And yeah. So I I decided at that 531 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:40,220 time, 532 00:19:40,919 --> 00:19:43,640 I wanted to understand polymaths in prison and 533 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,240 write a book on it. I write books. 534 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:46,759 That's you know, I'm a writer. That's part 535 00:19:46,759 --> 00:19:48,599 of what I do. And I didn't know 536 00:19:48,599 --> 00:19:50,359 where to start at first. I was like, 537 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,704 well, I've never been in a prison. I 538 00:19:52,704 --> 00:19:54,565 don't know anybody in prison. 539 00:19:54,944 --> 00:19:56,865 So I did what modern people do, and 540 00:19:56,865 --> 00:19:57,365 you 541 00:19:57,664 --> 00:19:58,565 go to YouTube. 542 00:19:58,944 --> 00:19:59,605 You know? 543 00:20:00,144 --> 00:20:01,505 You go to Google. You see what you 544 00:20:01,505 --> 00:20:02,164 can find. 545 00:20:02,865 --> 00:20:04,644 And I came across a video 546 00:20:05,460 --> 00:20:07,159 on YouTube, it's still there, 547 00:20:08,259 --> 00:20:11,000 of I think it was filmed in 2016 548 00:20:11,220 --> 00:20:12,519 or so of a prisoner 549 00:20:13,859 --> 00:20:14,759 doing tutorials 550 00:20:16,099 --> 00:20:17,559 from from a prison cell. 551 00:20:18,215 --> 00:20:20,955 And I was really impressed by the articulation, 552 00:20:21,494 --> 00:20:22,234 the skills. 553 00:20:22,535 --> 00:20:24,795 This in this one video, for example, 554 00:20:25,335 --> 00:20:27,095 Sean Rodriguez, that was the guy in the 555 00:20:27,095 --> 00:20:27,595 video, 556 00:20:28,375 --> 00:20:31,174 had built a soldering iron. This is a 557 00:20:31,174 --> 00:20:32,955 tool that melts metal. 558 00:20:33,740 --> 00:20:36,799 He had made it handmade, an electronic tool 559 00:20:36,940 --> 00:20:39,680 by hand using random spare parts. 560 00:20:40,380 --> 00:20:42,380 And then he had also built a speaker 561 00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:45,259 box using cardboard, and I think speakers from 562 00:20:45,259 --> 00:20:47,500 old televisions or something, I'm not exactly sure. 563 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:49,714 He had made a speaker box, wired it, 564 00:20:49,934 --> 00:20:51,474 and then he was doing a tutorial 565 00:20:52,974 --> 00:20:55,394 of how he was soldering the wires 566 00:20:55,934 --> 00:20:58,335 so that he could amplify sound from his 567 00:20:58,335 --> 00:21:00,654 boom box television or cell or the cell 568 00:21:00,654 --> 00:21:02,015 phone that he had access to at that 569 00:21:02,015 --> 00:21:04,150 time. And by the way, it's not proper 570 00:21:04,150 --> 00:21:05,830 to have a cell phone in prison. As 571 00:21:05,830 --> 00:21:07,430 long as I've known Sean, he never has 572 00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:09,269 had it. I did find the videos that 573 00:21:09,269 --> 00:21:11,670 he had created from from the time when 574 00:21:11,670 --> 00:21:13,029 he did have access to a cell phone. 575 00:21:13,029 --> 00:21:14,490 And Well, and they get iPads. 576 00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:17,049 They're what they're like iPads. 577 00:21:17,875 --> 00:21:18,694 Yes. Nowadays, 578 00:21:18,994 --> 00:21:21,255 prisoners have tablets that are given to them. 579 00:21:21,554 --> 00:21:24,054 Yes. Yeah. They're also doubled as as phones. 580 00:21:24,275 --> 00:21:25,875 Now that's a part of prison culture, but 581 00:21:25,875 --> 00:21:27,075 you have to get the ones that the 582 00:21:27,075 --> 00:21:29,234 prison gives you. You can't get the ones 583 00:21:29,234 --> 00:21:30,434 that the guards sell to you at a 584 00:21:30,434 --> 00:21:31,690 markup to make a bunch of money. If 585 00:21:31,690 --> 00:21:33,049 you if they find you with those, then 586 00:21:33,049 --> 00:21:35,210 you get in trouble. Yeah. There's that cycle 587 00:21:35,210 --> 00:21:37,369 is so the guards selling you the the 588 00:21:37,369 --> 00:21:39,769 iPhone and then rating it, taking it back, 589 00:21:39,769 --> 00:21:41,390 and then selling it to you again. 590 00:21:41,930 --> 00:21:42,750 Yeah. Exactly. 591 00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:43,630 Exactly. 592 00:21:44,009 --> 00:21:46,404 We talk about that on other shows. Yeah. 593 00:21:46,404 --> 00:21:47,525 Just to give insider 594 00:21:47,924 --> 00:21:48,984 you guys an insider 595 00:21:49,605 --> 00:21:50,105 understanding, 596 00:21:50,404 --> 00:21:52,085 prisoners who get caught with a cell phone 597 00:21:52,085 --> 00:21:54,184 in prison, it's a 5 year parole denial. 598 00:21:54,484 --> 00:21:56,345 And that cost taxpayers of California 599 00:21:56,884 --> 00:21:57,384 $132,000 600 00:21:58,404 --> 00:21:59,069 per year. 601 00:21:59,549 --> 00:22:01,470 So for having a cell phone, which is 602 00:22:01,470 --> 00:22:03,149 not a crime, it's just against the prison 603 00:22:03,149 --> 00:22:04,769 rules, taxpayers are spending 604 00:22:05,309 --> 00:22:07,950 multiple six figures to punish someone for having 605 00:22:07,950 --> 00:22:09,789 a cell phone that they got from a 606 00:22:09,789 --> 00:22:11,829 staff member. It's tricky. Right? Because some incarcerated 607 00:22:11,829 --> 00:22:12,269 individuals shouldn't have phones. They shouldn't because of 608 00:22:12,269 --> 00:22:12,825 the damage 609 00:22:25,819 --> 00:22:27,819 Isn't that good? They could still monitor, but 610 00:22:27,819 --> 00:22:29,819 anyway, that's a whole other topic we can 611 00:22:29,819 --> 00:22:30,799 talk about later. 612 00:22:31,339 --> 00:22:33,740 So you started so you reached out to 613 00:22:33,740 --> 00:22:36,240 Sean, or how did you develop this? Yeah. 614 00:22:36,460 --> 00:22:38,400 Yeah. So the video that was on YouTube 615 00:22:38,619 --> 00:22:40,585 of him, like, doing the tutorial with the 616 00:22:40,585 --> 00:22:42,365 soldering iron and the speaker box 617 00:22:42,825 --> 00:22:44,605 had his inmate ID. 618 00:22:45,544 --> 00:22:46,984 And I didn't really know what I was 619 00:22:46,984 --> 00:22:48,744 doing, but I did a little bit of 620 00:22:48,744 --> 00:22:50,505 research, and I found out, oh, well, I 621 00:22:50,505 --> 00:22:52,664 can go to this website and look up 622 00:22:52,664 --> 00:22:55,119 him, his name by his prisoner ID or 623 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:56,559 his name. There was a way to send 624 00:22:56,559 --> 00:22:58,980 an electronic message to him at that time, 625 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,279 and the way it worked is the prison 626 00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:02,900 would print it and give it to him. 627 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:04,799 So I decided to send a message. I 628 00:23:04,799 --> 00:23:06,099 was a little bit nervous 629 00:23:06,554 --> 00:23:08,634 to reach out to someone in prison because 630 00:23:08,634 --> 00:23:10,554 I didn't know this dude. I I will 631 00:23:10,554 --> 00:23:11,994 say though, I did quite a bit of 632 00:23:11,994 --> 00:23:14,014 reading on Sean Rodriguez before 633 00:23:14,634 --> 00:23:16,894 reaching out to him through that electronic message. 634 00:23:17,355 --> 00:23:19,019 And I read about his case, and I 635 00:23:19,019 --> 00:23:20,539 could see right off the bat that he 636 00:23:20,539 --> 00:23:23,259 was excessively sentenced. Like, he had participated in 637 00:23:23,259 --> 00:23:23,920 a robbery, 638 00:23:24,299 --> 00:23:25,980 but he was given a 25 to life 639 00:23:25,980 --> 00:23:28,160 sentence, and it just seemed like super overblown 640 00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:29,820 for what he had done as a 19 641 00:23:29,820 --> 00:23:31,914 year old homeless. I didn't he wasn't a 642 00:23:31,914 --> 00:23:33,835 serial killer. That was my check. Like, is 643 00:23:33,835 --> 00:23:35,275 this gonna be someone I need to be 644 00:23:35,275 --> 00:23:36,015 afraid of? 645 00:23:36,475 --> 00:23:38,394 And my conclusion right off the bat was, 646 00:23:38,394 --> 00:23:40,734 like, okay, he was a troubled teen who 647 00:23:41,035 --> 00:23:43,275 wrong place, wrong time, some bad decisions, but 648 00:23:43,275 --> 00:23:45,755 that he was excessively sentenced and over punished 649 00:23:45,755 --> 00:23:47,250 for what he had done. Then when I 650 00:23:47,250 --> 00:23:48,930 began talking to him, like, I just I 651 00:23:48,930 --> 00:23:50,529 could tell he was just a normal, smart, 652 00:23:50,529 --> 00:23:51,269 good person. 653 00:23:52,049 --> 00:23:54,150 Sean was the first one I talked to, 654 00:23:54,609 --> 00:23:56,210 and I didn't quite know what I was 655 00:23:56,210 --> 00:23:58,309 doing. Like, I was figuring out, like, 656 00:23:58,690 --> 00:24:00,369 how am I I was also figuring out 657 00:24:00,369 --> 00:24:01,349 how to be a 658 00:24:02,195 --> 00:24:04,595 a doctor, like, how to do research outside 659 00:24:04,595 --> 00:24:06,515 of a university on my own as an 660 00:24:06,515 --> 00:24:07,654 independent person. 661 00:24:08,355 --> 00:24:10,355 I didn't understand Chris. And so mostly what 662 00:24:10,355 --> 00:24:11,875 I was doing in the beginning was just 663 00:24:11,875 --> 00:24:13,654 trying to learn who is Sean. 664 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,840 That's a large part of what I've done 665 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:17,680 in my research as a doctor is, like, 666 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,080 understand people's lived experiences. Who are you? What 667 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,840 have you gone through? So I sort of 668 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,000 just extended the type of approach I had 669 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,380 done in my doctoral work 670 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,080 and just gotten to got to know Shawn 671 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:28,980 as a person 672 00:24:29,424 --> 00:24:32,404 before I dove into, like, formal 673 00:24:33,184 --> 00:24:36,384 analysis and writing or anything like that. And 674 00:24:36,384 --> 00:24:38,404 over the years, I've gotten to know 675 00:24:39,424 --> 00:24:41,585 a lot of prisoners. I message on the 676 00:24:41,585 --> 00:24:43,605 tablet with prisoners all the time. 677 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,360 And then I eventually, I began going to 678 00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:46,860 visit, 679 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,039 and I met lots of prison wives and 680 00:24:50,039 --> 00:24:51,420 prison moms and 681 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,700 all all a bunch of system impacted people. 682 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:56,460 And I got to understand 683 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:57,420 America's 684 00:24:58,075 --> 00:24:59,775 prison system from the inside. 685 00:25:00,394 --> 00:25:02,795 Did you get a sense that many of 686 00:25:02,795 --> 00:25:04,414 the people you spoke with 687 00:25:05,595 --> 00:25:06,095 had, 688 00:25:06,875 --> 00:25:07,695 as children, 689 00:25:08,075 --> 00:25:08,575 they 690 00:25:08,955 --> 00:25:10,734 had had they been encouraged 691 00:25:11,349 --> 00:25:13,690 to explore their curiosity in a positive 692 00:25:14,309 --> 00:25:15,609 way, they would have been 693 00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:18,630 this I'm trying to say is it seems 694 00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:20,490 like many incarcerated persons 695 00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:21,690 are incredibly 696 00:25:21,990 --> 00:25:25,109 bright. Not everyone, but many are incredibly bright 697 00:25:25,109 --> 00:25:27,164 who did not have a good focus for 698 00:25:27,164 --> 00:25:30,125 their energy and their curiosity and their active 699 00:25:30,125 --> 00:25:32,285 mind, and they got into trouble because of 700 00:25:32,285 --> 00:25:33,904 it, because they didn't have 701 00:25:34,365 --> 00:25:36,785 someone or or something shaping 702 00:25:37,565 --> 00:25:38,865 that brain. 703 00:25:39,950 --> 00:25:42,589 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I've seen, just 704 00:25:42,589 --> 00:25:43,869 sort of off the cuff, I mean, I 705 00:25:43,869 --> 00:25:46,430 haven't, like, formally documented and counted, but the 706 00:25:46,430 --> 00:25:48,049 common trends I see 707 00:25:48,430 --> 00:25:50,910 amongst who's in prison, well, it's mostly male. 708 00:25:50,910 --> 00:25:53,410 It's mostly black men, which is really sad. 709 00:25:53,444 --> 00:25:55,625 And, like, it's clearly an extension of slavery 710 00:25:55,764 --> 00:25:57,625 from from our horrible past. 711 00:25:58,404 --> 00:25:59,684 You find a lot of people who go 712 00:25:59,684 --> 00:26:02,184 to prison, I would say between 18 26, 713 00:26:02,484 --> 00:26:04,964 before their brains are even fully developed. You 714 00:26:04,964 --> 00:26:07,704 find people from poverty stricken backgrounds mostly, 715 00:26:08,909 --> 00:26:09,649 not educated, 716 00:26:10,429 --> 00:26:10,929 traumatized. 717 00:26:11,630 --> 00:26:13,549 A lot of them were born to young 718 00:26:13,549 --> 00:26:16,589 parents who weren't prepared to to raise kids 719 00:26:16,589 --> 00:26:18,690 in a a good effective way. 720 00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:20,669 A lot of them turned to gangs because 721 00:26:20,669 --> 00:26:22,609 daddy wasn't around. Generational 722 00:26:23,069 --> 00:26:25,144 trauma. Yeah. It is. It's a it's such 723 00:26:25,144 --> 00:26:26,525 a generational trauma. And 724 00:26:26,904 --> 00:26:29,244 I didn't realize when I first began, 725 00:26:29,625 --> 00:26:30,845 like, how much, 726 00:26:32,025 --> 00:26:34,125 how bad, how widespread 727 00:26:35,305 --> 00:26:37,785 incarceration was in our country. Like, now I 728 00:26:37,785 --> 00:26:38,285 know 729 00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:40,029 that of the 195 730 00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:42,509 countries on planet Earth, 731 00:26:42,970 --> 00:26:45,470 America has more prisoners than any of them. 732 00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:46,910 America has 25% 733 00:26:47,289 --> 00:26:48,670 of planet Earth's incarcerated, 734 00:26:49,369 --> 00:26:51,450 even though we're only about 5% of the 735 00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:54,585 population. Around 2,000,000 of us, almost 1% of 736 00:26:54,585 --> 00:26:55,644 our country is 737 00:26:56,184 --> 00:26:58,125 incarcerated. And it's big business. 738 00:26:58,585 --> 00:27:00,424 I've learned so much. Like, I went I 739 00:27:00,424 --> 00:27:02,585 went into the prison world to study my 740 00:27:02,585 --> 00:27:03,085 doctoral 741 00:27:03,464 --> 00:27:03,964 subject 742 00:27:04,505 --> 00:27:05,805 in a prison setting 743 00:27:06,184 --> 00:27:08,924 to show that non elite people could be 744 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,640 highly intelligent and creative and capable and, like, 745 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,180 to understand human versatility 746 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,259 in a non elite setting. 747 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,200 And that project totally got put on the 748 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,160 back burner just indefinitely because there was this 749 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,400 other story that needed to be told, which 750 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:23,900 is 751 00:27:25,694 --> 00:27:28,355 that America mass incarcerates its citizens, 752 00:27:28,894 --> 00:27:32,914 excessively sentences them, forces them to work like 753 00:27:33,375 --> 00:27:35,535 slaves, and if they don't, they can stay 754 00:27:35,535 --> 00:27:38,095 in prison longer so that private industry and 755 00:27:38,255 --> 00:27:40,799 can profit, so that government can have kickbacks 756 00:27:40,799 --> 00:27:41,940 and job security. 757 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,559 Like and mind you, when I was learning 758 00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:46,559 all of this, I myself worked for the 759 00:27:46,559 --> 00:27:47,460 federal government. 760 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:50,259 I went into government service 761 00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:51,539 because 762 00:27:51,839 --> 00:27:53,940 I wanted to use my life for good, 763 00:27:54,394 --> 00:27:56,234 and I thought government was the place you 764 00:27:56,234 --> 00:27:58,154 do that. And mind you, I worked in, 765 00:27:58,154 --> 00:27:58,815 you know, 766 00:27:59,595 --> 00:28:01,514 at the executive office of the president and 767 00:28:01,514 --> 00:28:03,214 at the office of personnel management, 768 00:28:03,914 --> 00:28:06,394 and especially at OPM, like, there there were 769 00:28:06,394 --> 00:28:09,194 frustrations I had with government, the bureaucracy, the 770 00:28:09,194 --> 00:28:10,950 slowness, the left hand doesn't know what the 771 00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:11,929 right hand's doing. 772 00:28:13,109 --> 00:28:15,429 But when I began to understand the criminal 773 00:28:15,429 --> 00:28:16,410 justice system, 774 00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:19,669 there there's a section of our government that 775 00:28:19,669 --> 00:28:20,970 is actually malevolent, 776 00:28:22,069 --> 00:28:23,049 which is victimizing 777 00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:24,169 us. 778 00:28:24,934 --> 00:28:26,855 That I decided basically to tell the truth 779 00:28:26,855 --> 00:28:28,954 about it. So over the years, I 780 00:28:29,494 --> 00:28:31,994 I started the Help Free Sean Rodriguez 781 00:28:32,295 --> 00:28:32,795 campaign 782 00:28:33,174 --> 00:28:35,815 because I learned he had been partly wrongfully 783 00:28:35,815 --> 00:28:39,015 convicted. He was guilty of participating in a 784 00:28:39,015 --> 00:28:39,994 robbery. But 785 00:28:40,429 --> 00:28:42,769 in my view, America has had legalized 786 00:28:43,549 --> 00:28:45,650 wrongful convictions. Let me explain. 787 00:28:46,349 --> 00:28:48,029 And this applies to Sean. This is why 788 00:28:48,029 --> 00:28:49,710 I fought so hard for Sean because he 789 00:28:49,710 --> 00:28:52,509 was legally wrongfully convicted of crimes he he's 790 00:28:52,509 --> 00:28:54,769 factually innocent of that he did not commit. 791 00:28:55,394 --> 00:28:57,715 It's important to note that in Sean's case 792 00:28:57,715 --> 00:28:58,375 as well 793 00:28:58,914 --> 00:28:59,414 that 794 00:28:59,795 --> 00:29:01,015 witnesses recanted. 795 00:29:01,394 --> 00:29:04,455 And in this country, an excessive sentence for 796 00:29:05,075 --> 00:29:06,775 some people have been 797 00:29:07,809 --> 00:29:08,309 retroactively 798 00:29:09,330 --> 00:29:12,309 they'll get released based on time served because 799 00:29:13,330 --> 00:29:15,509 of their constitutional rights being 800 00:29:15,890 --> 00:29:16,390 aggrieved 801 00:29:17,330 --> 00:29:19,250 by extensive sentences. So I just sort of 802 00:29:19,250 --> 00:29:21,110 wanna give that a little bit of backing 803 00:29:21,170 --> 00:29:22,150 for the listeners. 804 00:29:22,694 --> 00:29:25,654 In California and many other states, there's a 805 00:29:25,654 --> 00:29:26,794 a legal philosophy. 806 00:29:27,095 --> 00:29:29,255 It wasn't passed by the legislature. It's just 807 00:29:29,255 --> 00:29:32,234 something that the courts began implementing through precedent. 808 00:29:33,095 --> 00:29:35,494 It's called the natural and probable consequences doctrine 809 00:29:35,494 --> 00:29:37,494 in California. It's called other things in some 810 00:29:37,494 --> 00:29:40,340 other locations. But the natural and probable consequences 811 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,460 doctrine said, 812 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,180 if a group of 2 or more people 813 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,460 participate in a felony crime, for example, robbery, 814 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,640 that anything anyone does becomes a charge that 815 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,394 everyone involved can get 816 00:29:55,575 --> 00:29:57,974 charged with and found guilty of even if 817 00:29:57,974 --> 00:30:00,134 they themselves did not do it. So there 818 00:30:00,134 --> 00:30:02,295 are many, many, many hundreds of thousands of 819 00:30:02,295 --> 00:30:02,795 people 820 00:30:03,174 --> 00:30:06,215 in America's prisons largely for murder crimes they 821 00:30:06,215 --> 00:30:08,570 did not do, which comes with very excessive 822 00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:10,650 sentencing. Like, there are people with life who 823 00:30:10,650 --> 00:30:12,670 have life without parole sentences 824 00:30:13,369 --> 00:30:15,690 for a murder crime they did not commit 825 00:30:15,690 --> 00:30:16,190 themselves. 826 00:30:16,730 --> 00:30:18,730 But because they had agreed to a robbery, 827 00:30:18,730 --> 00:30:20,190 they're given the murder charge. 828 00:30:21,444 --> 00:30:23,845 And that was or still is largely in 829 00:30:23,845 --> 00:30:26,264 the United States. In California, it's not. But 830 00:30:26,644 --> 00:30:28,724 it was seen as an acceptable practice to 831 00:30:28,724 --> 00:30:31,444 give someone charges for a crime someone else 832 00:30:31,444 --> 00:30:34,299 did. Sean did not commit murder nor was 833 00:30:34,299 --> 00:30:36,059 he around anyone that committed murder. I just 834 00:30:36,059 --> 00:30:37,900 wanna make that clear that sometimes these things 835 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:39,600 get a little blurry as we're talking. 836 00:30:40,059 --> 00:30:40,559 And 837 00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:44,140 in the foster care system that when you 838 00:30:44,140 --> 00:30:44,960 hit 18, 839 00:30:45,434 --> 00:30:47,355 you age out, and you age out without 840 00:30:47,355 --> 00:30:48,494 any kind of care, 841 00:30:49,194 --> 00:30:49,694 meaning 842 00:30:50,315 --> 00:30:52,075 there's no job waiting for you, there's no 843 00:30:52,075 --> 00:30:54,315 money waiting for you, clearly there's no family 844 00:30:54,315 --> 00:30:56,315 there to support you. They just sort of 845 00:30:56,315 --> 00:30:59,194 release these kids onto the street, and many, 846 00:30:59,194 --> 00:30:59,694 statistically 847 00:30:59,994 --> 00:31:00,494 speaking, 848 00:31:01,099 --> 00:31:03,900 many of these kids turn to crime in 849 00:31:03,900 --> 00:31:04,720 order to 850 00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:06,799 live and exist. 851 00:31:08,059 --> 00:31:10,320 Yeah. So Sean was a teenager 852 00:31:10,940 --> 00:31:13,840 released from the state's custody directly into homelessness. 853 00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:15,420 They they didn't even give him a jacket 854 00:31:15,420 --> 00:31:17,015 or a sleeping bag, and he had no 855 00:31:17,015 --> 00:31:18,615 family. He was an orphan. He had no 856 00:31:18,615 --> 00:31:19,115 money. 857 00:31:19,654 --> 00:31:21,974 And so he was just immediately homeless and 858 00:31:21,974 --> 00:31:23,914 cold and hungry with no resources. 859 00:31:24,694 --> 00:31:25,515 Fast forward, 860 00:31:26,134 --> 00:31:28,774 he participated in a robbery with another homeless 861 00:31:28,774 --> 00:31:29,274 teenager. 862 00:31:29,654 --> 00:31:31,355 And she, in my view, was 863 00:31:32,690 --> 00:31:35,809 severely mentally ill, like, probably a psychopath. Like, 864 00:31:35,809 --> 00:31:38,690 just no empathy, no compassion, no concern for 865 00:31:38,690 --> 00:31:39,829 the rights or 866 00:31:40,210 --> 00:31:40,710 perspectives 867 00:31:41,009 --> 00:31:43,109 or lives of other human beings. 868 00:31:43,970 --> 00:31:44,470 And 869 00:31:45,644 --> 00:31:47,484 Sean was kind of afraid of her, to 870 00:31:47,484 --> 00:31:49,825 be honest. She was physically bigger than him. 871 00:31:50,125 --> 00:31:52,365 And how many years ago was this? This 872 00:31:52,365 --> 00:31:53,265 was in 2003. 873 00:31:53,725 --> 00:31:56,445 Okay. Placer County, California was the location as 874 00:31:56,445 --> 00:31:58,765 well. No it's a county just northeast of 875 00:31:58,765 --> 00:32:01,340 Sacramento, the state capital. So, yeah, Sean was 876 00:32:01,340 --> 00:32:03,420 a homeless teen. He found another homeless teen. 877 00:32:03,420 --> 00:32:05,119 They were sort of surviving together. 878 00:32:06,059 --> 00:32:07,440 And she had 879 00:32:08,539 --> 00:32:09,279 a boyfriend, 880 00:32:09,980 --> 00:32:11,119 39 years old, 881 00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:12,640 schizophrenic, 882 00:32:13,294 --> 00:32:16,035 and a known child molester. Also problematic. 883 00:32:16,734 --> 00:32:18,815 Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And he was hanging out 884 00:32:18,815 --> 00:32:19,554 with teenagers. 885 00:32:19,855 --> 00:32:22,515 Yeah. And But, again, if I'm a teenage 886 00:32:22,734 --> 00:32:24,174 child you know, if I'm a child, I 887 00:32:24,174 --> 00:32:26,335 don't have a lot of prospects. Those types 888 00:32:26,335 --> 00:32:27,794 of people prey on 889 00:32:28,589 --> 00:32:29,970 these kids also. 890 00:32:30,589 --> 00:32:31,329 Yeah. And 891 00:32:31,710 --> 00:32:32,849 Sean had seen 892 00:32:33,150 --> 00:32:36,529 Nick Hammond make unwanted sexual advances at Anna, 893 00:32:36,829 --> 00:32:39,230 and Anna wanted to rob him. Like, she 894 00:32:39,230 --> 00:32:40,509 she knew he had a little bit of 895 00:32:40,509 --> 00:32:41,650 money, and so 896 00:32:42,474 --> 00:32:44,794 and Anna had also told Sean that Nick 897 00:32:44,794 --> 00:32:47,115 Hammond had physically harmed her, that he had 898 00:32:47,115 --> 00:32:49,434 burned her with a cigarette, and, like, who 899 00:32:49,434 --> 00:32:51,054 knows if there was some sort of, like, 900 00:32:51,434 --> 00:32:52,974 molestation thing happening. 901 00:32:53,674 --> 00:32:55,434 And and she asked if Sean would be 902 00:32:55,434 --> 00:32:55,934 around 903 00:32:56,234 --> 00:32:58,769 just to make sure that Nick Hammond wouldn't, 904 00:32:58,769 --> 00:33:01,730 like, beat her up. Learning about Sean's case 905 00:33:01,730 --> 00:33:03,269 and really getting to know him 906 00:33:03,650 --> 00:33:05,430 and knowing that he was excessively 907 00:33:06,289 --> 00:33:06,789 sentenced 908 00:33:07,490 --> 00:33:09,910 and that he's now been incarcerated for 909 00:33:10,224 --> 00:33:12,085 20 years of his life plus 910 00:33:12,784 --> 00:33:14,865 and that he was so young when he 911 00:33:14,865 --> 00:33:15,845 went into prison. 912 00:33:16,304 --> 00:33:17,605 Knowing all of this, 913 00:33:18,625 --> 00:33:19,125 what 914 00:33:19,504 --> 00:33:22,144 what was your next step? What made you 915 00:33:22,144 --> 00:33:24,865 decide to put everything else you were doing 916 00:33:24,865 --> 00:33:25,924 on hold and 917 00:33:26,279 --> 00:33:27,180 found this 918 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,980 free Sean Rodriguez project? 919 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,920 Yeah. Well, just the more I learned about 920 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,000 his case and he had he had sent 921 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:35,740 me letters 922 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,740 and copies of information from the trial transcript. 923 00:33:40,204 --> 00:33:42,045 In fact, eventually he sent me the entire 924 00:33:42,045 --> 00:33:44,365 trial transcript. It was more than 2,000 pages, 925 00:33:44,365 --> 00:33:45,744 which I read in its entirety. 926 00:33:46,525 --> 00:33:49,105 And, like, the jurors said things like, 927 00:33:49,884 --> 00:33:51,105 no one was hurt. 928 00:33:51,644 --> 00:33:52,865 Where is the justice? 929 00:33:53,484 --> 00:33:56,919 Another juror said, I believe Sean deserved, at 930 00:33:56,919 --> 00:33:59,019 most, 1 year of confinement. 931 00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:03,079 Another juror begged the judge to reconsider the 932 00:34:03,079 --> 00:34:04,779 25 to life sentence. Like, 933 00:34:05,079 --> 00:34:08,359 jurors just ex just wrote so much showing 934 00:34:08,359 --> 00:34:11,114 that they knew Sean was not there for 935 00:34:11,114 --> 00:34:11,815 the kidnapping. 936 00:34:12,114 --> 00:34:14,034 He was in a different part of the 937 00:34:14,034 --> 00:34:15,894 building with his girlfriend, Erin, 938 00:34:16,914 --> 00:34:18,835 and they knew that Sean had no intent 939 00:34:18,835 --> 00:34:20,355 to kill. Because Sean, by the way, was 940 00:34:20,355 --> 00:34:22,835 repeatedly protecting Nick Hammond. Like, Sean was fine 941 00:34:22,835 --> 00:34:25,094 to participate in a robbery and sorta 942 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:27,260 egg him on and and go along with 943 00:34:27,260 --> 00:34:29,840 Anna to, like, get get money from him. 944 00:34:29,980 --> 00:34:32,780 But Sean was not cool with trapping him 945 00:34:32,780 --> 00:34:33,519 in a room 946 00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:35,659 or hurting him or beating him up or 947 00:34:35,659 --> 00:34:38,219 killing him. In fact, Sean repeatedly tried to 948 00:34:38,219 --> 00:34:39,820 get Nick Hammond out of the room where 949 00:34:39,820 --> 00:34:42,595 Anna entrapped him. And he did not die 950 00:34:42,595 --> 00:34:45,075 also. He did get out. Yeah. He was 951 00:34:45,075 --> 00:34:47,394 cold and he had had wet wet feet 952 00:34:47,394 --> 00:34:49,715 because he set water off the fire sprinkler 953 00:34:49,715 --> 00:34:50,994 on him when he was trapped in that 954 00:34:50,994 --> 00:34:53,335 room. And PTSD, I imagine. 955 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,079 Yeah. I'm sure there was, like, definite, like, 956 00:34:56,079 --> 00:34:58,159 emotional trauma and, like, being scared. And he 957 00:34:58,159 --> 00:35:00,320 has schizophrenia, so that sort of experience was 958 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,039 probably extra scary for for mister Hammond. But, 959 00:35:03,039 --> 00:35:04,719 yeah, Sean was given a 7 to life 960 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,199 sentence for a kidnapping he didn't know would 961 00:35:07,199 --> 00:35:10,905 happen and wasn't present for when the entrapment 962 00:35:10,905 --> 00:35:13,305 occurred. Anna did that by herself, and everyone 963 00:35:13,305 --> 00:35:14,045 knew that. 964 00:35:14,505 --> 00:35:16,585 The jurors knew that. And then Sean was 965 00:35:16,585 --> 00:35:18,525 given a 25 to life sentence 966 00:35:18,985 --> 00:35:19,485 because 967 00:35:19,785 --> 00:35:22,765 according to the natural and probable consequences doctrine, 968 00:35:23,809 --> 00:35:25,730 if he agreed to if he did participate 969 00:35:25,730 --> 00:35:27,329 in a robbery, then he was guilty of 970 00:35:27,329 --> 00:35:29,489 all the things Anna did. And Anna had 971 00:35:29,489 --> 00:35:31,829 intent to kill. She wanted to kill. 972 00:35:32,210 --> 00:35:33,269 Sean repeatedly 973 00:35:33,650 --> 00:35:36,635 acted to stop a murder. Anna wanted to 974 00:35:36,635 --> 00:35:38,714 throw Nick Hammond off a bridge, so he 975 00:35:38,714 --> 00:35:40,554 died. Sean talked her out of it. Then 976 00:35:40,554 --> 00:35:43,135 she wanted to beat Nick to death with 977 00:35:43,195 --> 00:35:45,195 poles wrapped in barbed wire. Sean talked her 978 00:35:45,195 --> 00:35:47,034 out of it. Sean was afraid of her. 979 00:35:47,034 --> 00:35:48,175 Anna had a knife. 980 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:49,340 And 981 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:51,019 so at some point, 982 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:53,420 stupid teenage boy thinking, 983 00:35:53,720 --> 00:35:55,400 Sean went, okay. I can't get out of 984 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,180 this situation. I'm afraid of her. 985 00:35:57,559 --> 00:35:59,800 Erin's pregnant. I'm worried for her safety. I 986 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:01,960 don't want Hammond to get physically injured. I 987 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,019 was just here, 988 00:36:03,385 --> 00:36:05,224 you know, to, like, make sure Anna didn't 989 00:36:05,224 --> 00:36:06,605 get beat up during the robbery, 990 00:36:06,905 --> 00:36:08,664 and now this has turned into a potential 991 00:36:08,664 --> 00:36:10,825 murder scene. Like, no. This is not cool. 992 00:36:10,825 --> 00:36:12,505 So in addition to trying to, like, turn 993 00:36:12,505 --> 00:36:15,224 off the water and break the plexiglass and 994 00:36:15,224 --> 00:36:16,285 remove the screws, 995 00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:19,760 Sean also repeatedly acted to stop Anna from 996 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,480 killing Nick Hammond. But the stupid thing the 997 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,140 stupid teenage boy thing Sean decided to do 998 00:36:25,199 --> 00:36:26,260 was to pretend 999 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,180 to gas Nick Hammond 1000 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,039 using the car exhaust from his vehicle and 1001 00:36:31,039 --> 00:36:31,780 some hoses, 1002 00:36:33,014 --> 00:36:33,755 but Sean 1003 00:36:34,375 --> 00:36:36,135 did not let the gas get to Nick. 1004 00:36:36,135 --> 00:36:37,594 He feigned and faked 1005 00:36:37,894 --> 00:36:39,815 and and tried to get Anna to believe 1006 00:36:39,815 --> 00:36:41,335 Nick Hammond was gone, and so we can 1007 00:36:41,335 --> 00:36:42,534 leave, and you don't need to try to 1008 00:36:42,534 --> 00:36:43,815 kill him anymore because it's taken care of, 1009 00:36:43,815 --> 00:36:45,655 and let like, let's just go. And Sean's 1010 00:36:45,655 --> 00:36:47,434 plan was to talk to the the police. 1011 00:36:47,679 --> 00:36:50,159 Obviously, that was a stupid decision to participate 1012 00:36:50,159 --> 00:36:51,760 in a fake thing, but he didn't know 1013 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,559 what else to do. It's definitely wrong place, 1014 00:36:54,559 --> 00:36:56,739 wrong time, wrong choices, 1015 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,880 just a lot of bad doorways to walk 1016 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,019 through, for sure. 1017 00:37:02,355 --> 00:37:03,094 I do think 1018 00:37:03,954 --> 00:37:05,014 people should have consequences 1019 00:37:05,474 --> 00:37:07,474 for their actions. I think he should have 1020 00:37:07,474 --> 00:37:10,195 had consequences for those choices he made. He 1021 00:37:10,195 --> 00:37:10,695 still 1022 00:37:11,235 --> 00:37:11,974 has choices. 1023 00:37:12,514 --> 00:37:13,014 However, 1024 00:37:14,034 --> 00:37:16,849 not to the excess of of a lifetime 1025 00:37:17,309 --> 00:37:17,809 incarceration 1026 00:37:18,190 --> 00:37:19,969 for when nobody died 1027 00:37:20,589 --> 00:37:22,289 and nobody really got 1028 00:37:22,589 --> 00:37:25,969 again, emotional hurt. Yes. That's probably severe. But 1029 00:37:26,190 --> 00:37:27,170 in other words, 1030 00:37:28,625 --> 00:37:30,625 there should have been a period of time 1031 00:37:30,625 --> 00:37:32,565 where he was brought before parole 1032 00:37:32,945 --> 00:37:34,565 long, long time ago 1033 00:37:34,864 --> 00:37:36,005 and said, look, 1034 00:37:36,464 --> 00:37:39,445 you know, you've done really well. You haven't 1035 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,260 done anything bad while you've been incarcerated. 1036 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,800 You haven't gotten into fights. You're doing the 1037 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,500 things you're supposed to be doing. 1038 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,099 Let's reevaluate 1039 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:48,900 this 1040 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,140 time served sort of situation. 1041 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,700 It's not the reality, I know, but 1042 00:37:54,074 --> 00:37:54,574 that's 1043 00:37:55,755 --> 00:37:57,775 seems like that's what should have been done. 1044 00:37:58,234 --> 00:37:59,914 Yeah. And by the way, Sean will be 1045 00:37:59,914 --> 00:38:01,994 the first like, Sean has always admitted what 1046 00:38:01,994 --> 00:38:03,855 he did do. Like, he did 1047 00:38:04,474 --> 00:38:07,360 participate in trying to get Nick Hammond's ATM 1048 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,760 card, which Anna used. And he did drive 1049 00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,059 around in Nick's car. 1050 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,440 And he'll he'll admit it. He did. He 1051 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,199 did. But that's not a life sentence. That's 1052 00:38:15,199 --> 00:38:16,400 not a life sentence. It should have been 1053 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,239 a few years. And that's you know, that 1054 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:19,840 would have been fair. He should have gotten 1055 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,519 a few years prison time. But instead of 1056 00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:24,025 that, they used the natural and probable consequences 1057 00:38:24,085 --> 00:38:26,884 doctrine to legally wrongfully convict him for crimes 1058 00:38:26,884 --> 00:38:29,464 Anna did for which Sean was factually innocent. 1059 00:38:29,924 --> 00:38:33,464 So you've started the free Sean Rodriguez project? 1060 00:38:34,179 --> 00:38:36,659 Yes. I started I originally started, like, the 1061 00:38:36,659 --> 00:38:38,739 very beginnings of that effort. Like, Sean sent 1062 00:38:38,739 --> 00:38:40,820 me the box of his legal paperwork, and 1063 00:38:40,820 --> 00:38:42,420 I began sort of out of my home 1064 00:38:42,420 --> 00:38:43,800 office beginning to 1065 00:38:44,420 --> 00:38:46,500 support him the best I could back in 1066 00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:47,000 2020. 1067 00:38:47,385 --> 00:38:49,224 We've got a website. We've got our logo. 1068 00:38:49,224 --> 00:38:51,385 We have a social media following on 4 1069 00:38:51,385 --> 00:38:54,105 different platforms. Like, I made it a thing 1070 00:38:54,105 --> 00:38:55,864 to just try to bring attention to his 1071 00:38:55,864 --> 00:38:57,164 his case in particular, 1072 00:38:57,465 --> 00:38:59,065 but I think there's also lessons to be 1073 00:38:59,065 --> 00:39:02,230 learned for the larger collective about, like, this 1074 00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:05,269 is one story, but there are many stories 1075 00:39:05,269 --> 00:39:07,289 like this where people are sent to prison 1076 00:39:07,750 --> 00:39:09,750 for crimes that someone else committed because they 1077 00:39:09,750 --> 00:39:12,329 were associated with a lesser crime, like robbery. 1078 00:39:12,789 --> 00:39:15,349 And what's your ultimate goal? He's up for 1079 00:39:15,349 --> 00:39:18,565 parole in July. Your ultimate goal is to 1080 00:39:18,565 --> 00:39:19,945 make sure that that happens. 1081 00:39:20,325 --> 00:39:22,805 Well Are you worried about blowback with you 1082 00:39:22,805 --> 00:39:24,505 being an advocate for him? 1083 00:39:25,204 --> 00:39:27,684 Yeah. I so I actually would prefer that 1084 00:39:27,684 --> 00:39:30,630 Sean get out not through parole. Because what 1085 00:39:30,630 --> 00:39:32,869 what it means when Sean gets out through 1086 00:39:32,869 --> 00:39:33,369 parole 1087 00:39:34,070 --> 00:39:34,889 is that 1088 00:39:35,429 --> 00:39:38,150 the crimes that he's factually innocent of will 1089 00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:39,589 will haunt him for the rest of his 1090 00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:41,589 life. What I'm really advocating for through the 1091 00:39:41,589 --> 00:39:43,449 Help Free Sean Rodriguez campaign 1092 00:39:44,255 --> 00:39:45,315 is for a resentencing 1093 00:39:45,775 --> 00:39:46,755 or a retrial 1094 00:39:47,375 --> 00:39:49,454 or exoneration for the crimes for which he's 1095 00:39:49,454 --> 00:39:51,954 factually innocent, for commutation, for pardon. 1096 00:39:52,255 --> 00:39:53,934 That and and those are all things that 1097 00:39:53,934 --> 00:39:55,394 I've requested to authorities. 1098 00:39:55,855 --> 00:39:58,175 It's a slow moving machine. Who knows how 1099 00:39:58,175 --> 00:40:00,590 that will go? Placer County doesn't seem all 1100 00:40:00,590 --> 00:40:01,090 that, 1101 00:40:02,190 --> 00:40:04,829 warm or responsive to do something about Sean's 1102 00:40:04,829 --> 00:40:06,050 legal wrongful convictions. 1103 00:40:06,829 --> 00:40:08,269 So if Sean has to get out through 1104 00:40:08,269 --> 00:40:10,110 the parole board, it will at least he 1105 00:40:10,110 --> 00:40:11,630 can get out, but the sad part about 1106 00:40:11,630 --> 00:40:13,730 that is that he's gonna have the kidnapping 1107 00:40:14,135 --> 00:40:16,875 and the conspiracy to commit murder charges 1108 00:40:17,175 --> 00:40:19,355 on his record for all of time. 1109 00:40:19,815 --> 00:40:21,755 And that's not really fair in my view. 1110 00:40:22,694 --> 00:40:24,614 Right. It's pretty hard to get a job 1111 00:40:24,614 --> 00:40:26,614 with that on your record, I imagine. Yeah. 1112 00:40:26,614 --> 00:40:29,140 Exactly. And that was another realization too, like, 1113 00:40:29,140 --> 00:40:30,039 how this system 1114 00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:33,300 fails to rehabilitate many offenders. I mean, I 1115 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:35,400 would say Sean is highly rehabilitated, 1116 00:40:35,780 --> 00:40:37,619 very self aware, done a lot of work 1117 00:40:37,619 --> 00:40:40,034 on himself, read over a 1000 books. I 1118 00:40:40,034 --> 00:40:42,614 can't even count the many dozens of certificates 1119 00:40:42,674 --> 00:40:45,655 and programs he's completed. He's an electrician. Like, 1120 00:40:46,034 --> 00:40:48,275 cognitive behavioral therapy he's done. Like, he's just 1121 00:40:48,275 --> 00:40:50,434 so self aware, and he really used the 1122 00:40:50,434 --> 00:40:52,355 decades he spent in prison to work on 1123 00:40:52,355 --> 00:40:52,855 himself. 1124 00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:56,059 He's been proudly gang free and drug free 1125 00:40:56,059 --> 00:40:56,880 the whole time. 1126 00:40:57,739 --> 00:40:59,900 He's a good guy. You know? And he 1127 00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:01,820 he was excessively sentenced for the crimes of 1128 00:41:01,820 --> 00:41:03,820 another person in addition to the crimes he 1129 00:41:03,820 --> 00:41:04,480 did commit 1130 00:41:04,780 --> 00:41:07,425 and should have received punishment for. Well, in 1131 00:41:07,425 --> 00:41:09,265 time served at that point. Yeah. I mean, 1132 00:41:09,265 --> 00:41:10,644 20 what is that? 24 1133 00:41:10,945 --> 00:41:13,344 years almost? Well, he's been in since 2003, 1134 00:41:13,344 --> 00:41:15,344 so it's been over 21 years. And by 1135 00:41:15,344 --> 00:41:18,085 the time he's eligible for parole next year, 1136 00:41:18,385 --> 00:41:20,739 it would be over 22 years. And mind 1137 00:41:20,739 --> 00:41:22,420 you, there's no guarantee he'll ever get out 1138 00:41:22,420 --> 00:41:23,779 through the parole board. One thing I will 1139 00:41:23,779 --> 00:41:25,159 mention to you as well is that 1140 00:41:25,539 --> 00:41:28,500 Sean has been a whistleblower against correctional officer 1141 00:41:28,500 --> 00:41:29,559 abuses in prison. 1142 00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:32,324 Year many years ago, he was at RJ 1143 00:41:32,324 --> 00:41:34,244 Donovan Prison in San Diego, and there were 1144 00:41:34,244 --> 00:41:36,804 severe abuses taking place at that prison. Sean 1145 00:41:36,965 --> 00:41:38,565 that's where Sean had the cell phone, and 1146 00:41:38,565 --> 00:41:40,585 he filmed correctional officers beating 1147 00:41:40,965 --> 00:41:43,045 inmates and got it out to an attorney's 1148 00:41:43,045 --> 00:41:45,925 office. And so he's received a lot of 1149 00:41:45,925 --> 00:41:47,144 fake write ups, 1150 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,559 you know, out of retaliation from from correctional 1151 00:41:50,559 --> 00:41:53,039 officers. You can't believe the correctional officers. I 1152 00:41:53,039 --> 00:41:55,300 can. I can believe it because I've interviewed 1153 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:57,059 other guards who are whistleblowers, 1154 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,539 and the stories are 1155 00:42:00,405 --> 00:42:01,065 mind boggling. 1156 00:42:01,445 --> 00:42:03,945 Yeah. But very true. Yeah. Yeah. Horrifying. 1157 00:42:04,244 --> 00:42:06,824 Horrifying. Horrifying. Yeah. There are beatings, 1158 00:42:07,684 --> 00:42:08,184 murders, 1159 00:42:09,204 --> 00:42:12,269 fraudulent paperwork to get people trapped in like, 1160 00:42:12,349 --> 00:42:14,670 some Human trafficking. I mean, it's the list 1161 00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:16,670 goes on. Sure. The list goes on and 1162 00:42:16,670 --> 00:42:18,269 on. And the heartbreaking part is that this 1163 00:42:18,269 --> 00:42:20,110 is done to us by badge wearers, by 1164 00:42:20,110 --> 00:42:22,510 members of our government who we pay to 1165 00:42:22,510 --> 00:42:24,289 serve and protect and rehabilitate. 1166 00:42:25,070 --> 00:42:27,170 And instead of doing that, they're 1167 00:42:27,534 --> 00:42:29,695 engaging in criminal activities while on the clock 1168 00:42:29,695 --> 00:42:32,255 themselves, some of them. So Right. Part of 1169 00:42:32,255 --> 00:42:33,394 why I speak out 1170 00:42:33,775 --> 00:42:37,135 for Sean and for criminal justice reform more 1171 00:42:37,135 --> 00:42:39,375 largely is because that's not what government should 1172 00:42:39,375 --> 00:42:40,894 be. I know. Like, government is here to 1173 00:42:40,894 --> 00:42:42,670 help us. It should be here to make 1174 00:42:42,670 --> 00:42:43,650 our lives better. 1175 00:42:44,510 --> 00:42:46,349 One other thing I'll mention too, because of 1176 00:42:46,349 --> 00:42:48,269 everything I learned, I realized I wanted to 1177 00:42:48,269 --> 00:42:48,769 make 1178 00:42:49,070 --> 00:42:52,030 systemic change beyond just Sean's case. Like, Sean's 1179 00:42:52,030 --> 00:42:54,269 case obviously matters a lot to me. I've 1180 00:42:54,269 --> 00:42:56,269 invested heavily to, like, make a difference in 1181 00:42:56,269 --> 00:42:57,250 his one case. 1182 00:42:57,885 --> 00:42:59,724 But I've learned so much about the system 1183 00:42:59,724 --> 00:43:02,065 that I started the prison transparency project 1184 00:43:02,844 --> 00:43:05,025 as well. So I've been creating 1185 00:43:05,324 --> 00:43:06,545 informational reports, 1186 00:43:06,925 --> 00:43:09,724 slide decks. I have a survey. I'm getting 1187 00:43:09,724 --> 00:43:11,025 ready to launch nationwide 1188 00:43:11,780 --> 00:43:13,800 in the process of getting supportive partners. 1189 00:43:14,420 --> 00:43:15,559 And I really have, 1190 00:43:16,019 --> 00:43:18,679 on a voluntary basis, like, taken on, 1191 00:43:19,059 --> 00:43:20,519 you know, a lot of work 1192 00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:23,619 to bring attention to the humanitarian crisis that 1193 00:43:23,619 --> 00:43:25,940 we have in America. So Prison Transparency Project 1194 00:43:25,940 --> 00:43:27,400 also is on social media. 1195 00:43:27,755 --> 00:43:29,355 I really wanna bring attention to this because 1196 00:43:29,355 --> 00:43:30,875 it feels to me like not enough people 1197 00:43:30,875 --> 00:43:32,954 are talking about it, especially given how many 1198 00:43:32,954 --> 00:43:34,015 families and lives 1199 00:43:34,635 --> 00:43:35,375 are ruined 1200 00:43:35,755 --> 00:43:36,255 by 1201 00:43:37,035 --> 00:43:37,855 the malevolence 1202 00:43:38,474 --> 00:43:39,215 and injustice 1203 00:43:40,510 --> 00:43:41,250 and ineptitude 1204 00:43:42,030 --> 00:43:44,910 of a system that's really antiquated and harming 1205 00:43:44,910 --> 00:43:47,470 us. By the way, eventually, some of these 1206 00:43:47,470 --> 00:43:49,550 folks get out and they become your neighbors. 1207 00:43:49,550 --> 00:43:51,489 And would you rather they come out 1208 00:43:52,030 --> 00:43:52,530 rehabilitated 1209 00:43:53,150 --> 00:43:54,450 knowing that they were 1210 00:43:54,804 --> 00:43:55,625 treated humanely, 1211 00:43:56,085 --> 00:43:58,085 or would you rather they come out having 1212 00:43:58,085 --> 00:43:59,224 been treated viciously 1213 00:43:59,684 --> 00:44:02,184 and inhumanely? Which is the better neighbor 1214 00:44:02,485 --> 00:44:04,164 to have in the long run? And I 1215 00:44:04,164 --> 00:44:05,844 think that's something that people really need to 1216 00:44:05,844 --> 00:44:08,265 start wrapping their head around for sure. 1217 00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:10,420 Tell people how they can find you. 1218 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,980 You can find me at doctordrangela, 1219 00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:14,659 angela, 1220 00:44:15,119 --> 00:44:16,799 meyers, m e y e r s. So 1221 00:44:16,799 --> 00:44:17,299 doctorangelameyers.com. 1222 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:19,139 You can find 1223 00:44:19,519 --> 00:44:20,579 help free sean@helpfree, 1224 00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:23,059 s h a w n.com. 1225 00:44:23,704 --> 00:44:25,644 You can also check out prison transparency.com. 1226 00:44:27,545 --> 00:44:28,985 Am I missing anything? If you go to 1227 00:44:28,985 --> 00:44:31,224 Pauli Maas' Place, you'll you'll get redirected to 1228 00:44:31,224 --> 00:44:32,505 doctor Angel. But, yeah, I've got a bunch 1229 00:44:32,505 --> 00:44:34,585 of different websites. I'm all over the place. 1230 00:44:34,585 --> 00:44:35,804 I at the end of the day, 1231 00:44:36,150 --> 00:44:37,670 why I do what I do is because 1232 00:44:37,670 --> 00:44:39,829 my mission in life, like, what I wanna 1233 00:44:39,829 --> 00:44:41,049 do with my existence, 1234 00:44:41,750 --> 00:44:43,609 is make a difference in the world 1235 00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:46,949 to reduce human suffering and enhance human thriving. 1236 00:44:46,949 --> 00:44:49,434 And so I've done that through criminal justice 1237 00:44:49,434 --> 00:44:51,594 reform to reduce suffering, and I've done what 1238 00:44:51,594 --> 00:44:53,594 I could to promote human potential and self 1239 00:44:53,594 --> 00:44:56,315 actualization and lifelong, life wide learning through the 1240 00:44:56,315 --> 00:44:57,295 lens of polymathy. 1241 00:44:58,714 --> 00:45:01,275 Yeah. It's lovely. And I will put all 1242 00:45:01,275 --> 00:45:03,375 the information and links on heyhumanpodcast 1243 00:45:03,860 --> 00:45:05,619 dotcom as well so people can find them 1244 00:45:05,619 --> 00:45:07,539 easily if they have any kind of issues 1245 00:45:07,539 --> 00:45:09,780 trying to remember or whatever. They just go 1246 00:45:09,780 --> 00:45:11,300 right there, and it'll all be there. And 1247 00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:14,019 thank you so much for for your time 1248 00:45:14,019 --> 00:45:14,519 and, 1249 00:45:15,140 --> 00:45:17,644 you know, good work on you for getting 1250 00:45:17,644 --> 00:45:19,005 out there and and trying to make a 1251 00:45:19,005 --> 00:45:20,144 difference in this world. 1252 00:45:20,844 --> 00:45:22,545 It's tough to fight for people 1253 00:45:23,164 --> 00:45:24,144 who historically 1254 00:45:24,525 --> 00:45:25,585 have been deemed 1255 00:45:26,204 --> 00:45:28,605 not worth the fight. Prisoners are the voiceless. 1256 00:45:28,605 --> 00:45:30,364 They're easy to forget. Like, if you're not 1257 00:45:30,364 --> 00:45:32,284 impacted, like, you just have no clue what's 1258 00:45:32,284 --> 00:45:34,660 going on. There's bars and fences and gates 1259 00:45:34,660 --> 00:45:37,539 and locks. And so there's a lot, there's 1260 00:45:37,539 --> 00:45:39,780 a real lack of awareness for what the 1261 00:45:39,780 --> 00:45:42,180 reality is here. So I'm just doing what 1262 00:45:42,180 --> 00:45:43,480 I can to tell the truth. 1263 00:45:44,180 --> 00:45:46,840 Yeah. Well, thank you for listening, everybody. 1264 00:45:47,539 --> 00:45:48,039 Bye. 1265 00:45:48,554 --> 00:45:49,454 Thanks, Angela. 1266 00:45:49,755 --> 00:45:50,494 Thank you. 1267 00:45:52,714 --> 00:45:55,275 Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human Podcast 1268 00:45:55,275 --> 00:45:57,914 on iTunes, Spotify, Iheart, wherever you get your 1269 00:45:57,914 --> 00:45:59,214 podcasts. Thanks. 1270 00:45:59,594 --> 00:46:00,094 Bye.