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Hey, humans. How's it going?

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Susan Ruth here. Thanks for listening to another

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episode of Hey Human Podcast.

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This is episode 426,

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and my guest is Matthew Creighton. Matthew's episode

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is quite timely

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as he's a political strategist,

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digital age expert,

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and founder of Publicix,

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which builds campaigns at the local, state, and

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federal levels

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in both private and public sectors.

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We discuss the weird and wild ride of

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American politics,

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the complications of social media and trying to

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connect to a populace who feel adrift and

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are as easily swayed by untruths as there

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are truths.

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Incredibly fascinating conversation.

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It went on for a while. I took

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up so much of his time, and he

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was so gracious about it because I know

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he is incredibly busy right now,

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and it was really, really fascinating. We actually

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had this conversation

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pre

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both assassination attempts at this point,

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and so,

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we don't discuss that at all because it

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had not yet happened.

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My intent was to save this episode,

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to closer to the election time, and

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I was going to have Matthew come back

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on and talk a little bit about

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how what happened might be shaping things or

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even

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up to date as what's going on now

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just in general with the election.

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And he's just so busy, so we didn't

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get a chance to reconnect.

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But I think this is a really

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interesting, great episode, and I I think you

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will

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learn a lot. I know I did.

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General stuff, Hey Human podcast is now on

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YouTube under official Susan Ruth. I'm on Patreon

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at susanruthism,

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where you can help support Hey Human,

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keep it ad free. TikTok,

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I am there, susanruthism,

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and check out heyhumanpodcast.com

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for links and to learn more about my

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guests and the show. Check out susanruth.com

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to learn more about me and my other

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artistic endeavors,

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and follow Susan Ruthism on social media,

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the evil social media. We all we all

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hate it, but we all need it. Right?

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Find my albums on Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon

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Music, or wherever you get your music.

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Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human podcast

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on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Thanks for listening.

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Please register to vote. You can go to

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vote.org.

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That's v o t e dot o r

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g. If you are eligible to vote, Please

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do so. Please, please. It's really important.

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So do that. Be kind. Be well. Be

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loved.

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Here we go.

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Matthew Creighton, welcome to Hey Human.

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Thank you for having me. It's lovely to

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see you.

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Great to see you as well. Where are

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you hailing from?

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So I am sitting in New Jersey right

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now. From New Jersey as well. So Okay.

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The Garden State? North Jersey. Yep. Yeah. We're

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bred. Proud of it. Proud of New Jersey.

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And I've been to Jersey on a lake

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boating around, and I thought, yeah, I get

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it. It was it was gorgeous.

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Well, yeah. For for those listening, who have

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not yet had the opportunity to visit New

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Jersey, we do have lakes, and and they

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are beautiful. We also have mountains and beautiful

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beaches. So I recommend

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definitely visit. It's not all the turnpike. And

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that's something that I've always said about about

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Jersey in particular is that, unfortunately, if you

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fly into Jersey, you're flying into the Newark

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Airport, which is, like, right down the turnpike.

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You see

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all the, all the stuff going on at

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the port down there, which is is, you

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know, absolutely essential, but I think that's the

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impression people get of our state. So we

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do have lakes, I promise, and and nature

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and, and and beautiful little downtowns and things

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like that. So worth a visit. So this

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is my, little pitch for Jersey tourism.

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Absolutely. And my audience can't see you, but

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the muscle shirt you're wearing is awesome.

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Just

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kidding.

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Exactly.

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I've got,

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got my hair slicked back. Yeah. The pump

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going. Yeah.

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That's the that's the look. It is. You

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don't you don't have a Jersey accent at

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all, to my to my ear at least.

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Oh, that's funny. Yeah. I had a few

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years ago, an Uber driver in, Washington DC

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when I was down there for a couple

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of meetings and, and she was able to

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pick it out. So she was like, oh,

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you must be from New Jersey. I'm like,

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oh, I didn't think that's sick of an

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accent, but it does run run the spectrum.

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Actually, I should say there is no single

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Jersey accent in the southern half of the

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state. It's it's very much, sort of a

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Philadelphia

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sounding accent, you know, south of, I don't

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know,

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1195.

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North of that, you know, you get the

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the spectrum of of sort of New York

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or

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a lot of people sound like me. Central

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Jersey. I mean, now we're getting into, like,

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hot debate territory here about, like, whether or

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not Central Jersey exists, but it's, you know,

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more of a neutral type thing. But that

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Uber driver did she picked me picked me

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out. She was like, oh, you sound like

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you're from Jersey. I'm like, well That's probably

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because the Uber driver was East Coast. I

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feel like you're I can tell people because

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I grew up in the Pacific Northwest,

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I can tell people Canadian

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or even if it's a slight Canadian accent

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or Oregon, it's a little different, you know,

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that it it's weird. I think if you're

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from the region, you pick up stuff a

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little bit more. Yeah. You definitely are attuned

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to, to it. I mean, accents are fascinating

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to me. I know I know we could

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I could go on for, like, hours, but

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it is it is fascinating. Even within, like,

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certain communities or neighborhoods in in certain parts

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of Jersey, you get some very interesting,

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sort of linguistic things that that you hear

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from from people. So it's like, you know,

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like Hudson County, for example, which is very

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close to New York City. Like, if you're,

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like, old Hudson County, like, there are certain

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little verbal quirks that you hear, like adding

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an r on the end of, of,

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words that have an a at the end.

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So, like, idea turns into idea or pizza

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or, like, it's it's very and you only

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hear that in very specific areas. So it's

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not like a total it's it's really interesting

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to to hear, whereas, like, if you go

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a mile, you know, a different direction, it's

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it's, it's more of a a standard sound.

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So it's kind of, like, cool cool to

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see the spectrum of things and how

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how language is, developed.

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Absolutely.

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And I I myself, when I go to

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I lived in the South for 13 years.

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And when I go there, I find that

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it doesn't take very long

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before

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my lilt

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comes in. I mean, I wasn't born there

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or anything, but I'd start to adapt to

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what's around me.

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Oh, yeah. You definitely do hear that,

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quite a bit where where people start to

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to mirror the, the accent. So, in college,

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I had I had a roommate actually from

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South Jersey, and he had a very thick

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sort of Philadelphia

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kind of accent.

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And, and and you start to hear yourself

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say like, you spend enough time and you

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start hearing yourself saying, like, things like home,

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you know, phone, like, the the o sound,

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which is very, like, Philly kind of,

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Philly kind of thing. So it's it's it's

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definitely an interesting interesting thing. I've I've seen

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that happen happen before. People come up here

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and their accents, you know, fade a little

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bit from the south. You know, I have

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a neighbor, she's from Alabama.

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You could hear it a little bit, but

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it's not super thick. Right? Like, I think

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it's it's definitely,

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tamped down. But then, you know, you go

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home for a week, like you said, and

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you really start to hear it again. So

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What's so interesting about it is that on

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a on a brain level that

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it just shows how

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much human beings

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want to

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connect to another, that we will go into

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that sort of a mirroring and

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and try to match up our intonations

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and

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our vocal

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pitches and things like that. I just think

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that's so fascinating. It just says how tribal

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we are.

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Oh, for sure. Yeah. It's it's definitely a

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whole

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area of study that I I think I

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I would be interested actually in going back

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into, you know, if I had a lot

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of free time, I I think, you know,

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linguistics and and patterns of speech and things

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like that would be very interesting. I mean,

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like peripherally,

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and, you know, I'm sure we'll talk a

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little bit about it, but peripherally, you know,

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we think a lot about how to communicate,

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in certain situations and how to connect with

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people.

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Linguistics is a very, very deep well, and

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I would certainly be interested in exploring it,

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you know, if I have some free time.

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So maybe that'll be my, my next act

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is, going in and studying some of that

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stuff. Yeah. I love it. Follow follow your

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bliss, for sure. Well, let's talk about where

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so you we know where you grew up.

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I'm assuming you did grow up there. Tell

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me about what shaped you as a person

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as you were growing up and and started

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you down

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the funnel of what you do now? That's

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a really fascinating question. So it it was

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sort of a

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pretty standard, like, suburban New Jersey upbringing.

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Nothing

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exceptional.

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I I would say, you know, went to

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went to public schools, had the benefit

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of living

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in a place that had a really great

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education system,

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a place that provides

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a lot of opportunities,

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even if you don't know it at the

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time, you know, when you're a little kid,

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student in high school, middle school. I will

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say that, I was not

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the best student

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in, in high school, middle school, you know.

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So I definitely had my my challenges with

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traditional

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school. Things that I was interested in, obviously,

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I excelled at. Things that I wasn't particularly

269
00:09:25,824 --> 00:09:28,225
interested in, I struggled or kind of shrugged

270
00:09:28,225 --> 00:09:30,144
off or didn't pay too much attention to,

271
00:09:30,225 --> 00:09:31,504
didn't, you know, put a whole lot of

272
00:09:31,504 --> 00:09:33,824
effort in. So I had a lot of

273
00:09:33,824 --> 00:09:35,365
advantages, though, obviously,

274
00:09:35,769 --> 00:09:37,529
growing up where I did and having the

275
00:09:37,529 --> 00:09:39,929
sort of winning the lottery of just having

276
00:09:39,929 --> 00:09:42,409
been born again into a place on the

277
00:09:42,409 --> 00:09:44,730
globe, which in the grand scheme of things

278
00:09:44,730 --> 00:09:46,409
is really just like a little pinpoint on

279
00:09:46,409 --> 00:09:47,529
a map, you know? So I just, you

280
00:09:47,529 --> 00:09:48,750
know, I went through school,

281
00:09:49,205 --> 00:09:49,705
never

282
00:09:50,325 --> 00:09:52,965
really had a sense of what I wanted

283
00:09:52,965 --> 00:09:54,184
to do necessarily.

284
00:09:54,644 --> 00:09:55,845
As I kind of went through high school,

285
00:09:55,845 --> 00:09:57,764
you go through phases, you know, thinking, oh,

286
00:09:57,764 --> 00:09:59,605
maybe I'll do this, do that. But, I

287
00:09:59,605 --> 00:10:01,365
thought at the end of high school, you

288
00:10:01,365 --> 00:10:02,884
know what? I'm gonna go to college. I'm

289
00:10:02,884 --> 00:10:04,745
gonna try to get into teaching,

290
00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:07,019
which was interesting. So, like, because I wasn't

291
00:10:07,019 --> 00:10:07,519
particularly

292
00:10:08,299 --> 00:10:10,399
as focused as I perhaps should have been

293
00:10:10,779 --> 00:10:12,539
in school, I thought, you know, why don't

294
00:10:12,539 --> 00:10:15,019
I become a teacher? Because then people like

295
00:10:15,019 --> 00:10:16,879
me, you know, I can try to

296
00:10:17,945 --> 00:10:20,585
recreate things or or, teach in a way

297
00:10:20,585 --> 00:10:22,424
that's that's engaging to people like me. You

298
00:10:22,424 --> 00:10:23,085
don't really

299
00:10:23,705 --> 00:10:25,945
find all that much interest in certain topics

300
00:10:25,945 --> 00:10:27,804
or or relevance. So,

301
00:10:28,345 --> 00:10:30,184
ended up getting into, you know, a couple

302
00:10:30,184 --> 00:10:32,570
of colleges. Went to, a school in Jersey

303
00:10:32,570 --> 00:10:34,909
called Fairleigh Dickinson, which is,

304
00:10:35,289 --> 00:10:37,289
not very well known except for the fact

305
00:10:37,289 --> 00:10:38,509
that, we made

306
00:10:38,970 --> 00:10:41,149
a a really brief run at the NCAA,

307
00:10:42,490 --> 00:10:44,970
basketball tournament. I think it was it was

308
00:10:44,970 --> 00:10:45,709
last year,

309
00:10:46,034 --> 00:10:47,495
and had a little bit of a Cinderella

310
00:10:47,554 --> 00:10:49,394
run. It didn't go very go on for

311
00:10:49,394 --> 00:10:50,914
very long, but there were some exciting games

312
00:10:50,914 --> 00:10:52,195
in there, and and that was cool. So

313
00:10:52,195 --> 00:10:54,115
that sort of, raised, you know, the profile

314
00:10:54,115 --> 00:10:55,394
of the school, which is which is always

315
00:10:55,394 --> 00:10:57,254
fun, because we're not a sports school.

316
00:10:57,714 --> 00:11:00,049
So I went there, studied history, political science,

317
00:11:00,049 --> 00:11:01,169
thought I was gonna be a teacher the

318
00:11:01,169 --> 00:11:02,950
whole time. And then 2,008

319
00:11:03,649 --> 00:11:06,450
came around, economy collapsed. So I like to

320
00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:08,129
say it's sort of a very millennial story

321
00:11:08,129 --> 00:11:10,370
from from here, from this point till present.

322
00:11:10,370 --> 00:11:13,334
Economy collapsed. I ended up graduating in 2010

323
00:11:13,475 --> 00:11:16,195
with my bachelor's, 2011 with a master's degree

324
00:11:16,195 --> 00:11:18,195
in education, did my student teaching, did all

325
00:11:18,195 --> 00:11:19,414
of that, but there still

326
00:11:19,794 --> 00:11:22,355
weren't that many jobs, out there. So in

327
00:11:22,355 --> 00:11:23,254
in New Jersey,

328
00:11:23,794 --> 00:11:26,294
the public education budgets were gutted

329
00:11:26,860 --> 00:11:28,779
under under the governor at the time, you

330
00:11:28,779 --> 00:11:30,779
know, due to some of the financial hardships,

331
00:11:30,779 --> 00:11:32,700
and also there's some, like, political stuff that

332
00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:34,379
led to, you know, the cutting of education

333
00:11:34,379 --> 00:11:36,620
budgets. So, what ended up happening was, you

334
00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:38,139
know, I was applying for jobs. There were

335
00:11:38,139 --> 00:11:40,460
hundreds of other applicants in some cases. Many

336
00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:41,600
of them had

337
00:11:41,955 --> 00:11:44,595
7 years of experience. Why would they hire

338
00:11:44,595 --> 00:11:46,915
some kid, especially with a master's degree because

339
00:11:46,915 --> 00:11:48,274
that makes you a little bit more expensive.

340
00:11:48,274 --> 00:11:49,634
So why would you hire some kid out

341
00:11:49,634 --> 00:11:52,274
of college that's more expensive, less experience than

342
00:11:52,274 --> 00:11:53,955
if you could hire someone who's got 7

343
00:11:53,955 --> 00:11:56,434
years of or 5, 7 years of, classroom

344
00:11:56,434 --> 00:11:58,120
experience? So that kind of triggered

345
00:11:58,500 --> 00:11:59,480
the, what do I do,

346
00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:02,019
with with my life? So I always thought

347
00:12:02,019 --> 00:12:04,419
I liked, I was interested in politics. That

348
00:12:04,419 --> 00:12:06,419
was always something that was that was interesting

349
00:12:06,419 --> 00:12:08,899
to me. During my graduate school years, I

350
00:12:08,899 --> 00:12:11,445
actually did a graduate assistantship at a public

351
00:12:11,684 --> 00:12:14,245
opinion polling institute called Public Mind Poll. I

352
00:12:14,245 --> 00:12:16,105
learned a lot of really cool things about,

353
00:12:16,565 --> 00:12:19,764
public opinion, how people think about specific issues,

354
00:12:19,764 --> 00:12:22,985
specific elected officials, politicians, policies. So,

355
00:12:23,285 --> 00:12:24,725
that was a lot of fun but didn't

356
00:12:24,725 --> 00:12:27,710
really do much with of anything with that

357
00:12:27,929 --> 00:12:30,169
for for a couple years. So I naturally

358
00:12:30,169 --> 00:12:31,529
just took the first job that came my

359
00:12:31,529 --> 00:12:33,769
way, which happened to be doing some fundraising

360
00:12:33,769 --> 00:12:36,570
and alumni relations at the school that I

361
00:12:36,570 --> 00:12:38,909
was at and specifically geared toward

362
00:12:39,450 --> 00:12:41,375
young alums. As you can imagine,

363
00:12:41,915 --> 00:12:45,035
they hired me and then, one other person

364
00:12:45,035 --> 00:12:46,875
from a second case. There were 2 campuses

365
00:12:46,875 --> 00:12:48,815
in New Jersey. They wanted to have representation

366
00:12:48,875 --> 00:12:50,475
from both, so they hired 2 of us.

367
00:12:50,475 --> 00:12:52,075
And our our charge was sort of to

368
00:12:52,075 --> 00:12:53,995
connect with young alums, you know, call through

369
00:12:53,995 --> 00:12:55,615
the phone book essentially, and

370
00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:56,839
ask for

371
00:12:57,220 --> 00:12:59,220
money. As you can imagine, you know, in

372
00:12:59,220 --> 00:13:01,879
in that economic climate, people were not thrilled

373
00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:03,539
to hear from me, and had a lot

374
00:13:03,539 --> 00:13:06,019
of creative ways of rebuffing my ask. So,

375
00:13:06,019 --> 00:13:08,659
you know, and certainly many of those those,

376
00:13:08,899 --> 00:13:11,825
responses are not appropriate to to repeat here

377
00:13:12,205 --> 00:13:14,044
or anywhere for that matter. And I understood

378
00:13:14,044 --> 00:13:15,485
it. Right? Like, and I'd asked myself, well,

379
00:13:15,485 --> 00:13:17,644
if someone called me and, and and asked

380
00:13:17,644 --> 00:13:19,004
for money at this point, you know, there

381
00:13:19,165 --> 00:13:21,804
people have student loans, the job prospects were

382
00:13:21,804 --> 00:13:23,884
a little dicey at at the moment. So

383
00:13:23,884 --> 00:13:24,465
it was,

384
00:13:24,830 --> 00:13:26,110
you know, I I I got it. Like,

385
00:13:26,110 --> 00:13:28,190
I understood it. And but needless to say,

386
00:13:28,190 --> 00:13:29,889
the expectations were completely

387
00:13:30,269 --> 00:13:33,389
mismatched. So, you know, the we ended up

388
00:13:33,389 --> 00:13:35,309
getting laid off 10 months later, and I

389
00:13:35,309 --> 00:13:37,230
was like, uh-oh. We're right back in the

390
00:13:37,230 --> 00:13:39,075
mix again. So I figured, you know, why

391
00:13:39,075 --> 00:13:40,774
don't I try to start my own thing?

392
00:13:41,475 --> 00:13:43,235
I've always liked the politics, so let let

393
00:13:43,235 --> 00:13:44,514
me try to work on a couple of

394
00:13:44,514 --> 00:13:45,014
campaigns.

395
00:13:45,394 --> 00:13:46,774
So I went out and found

396
00:13:47,235 --> 00:13:49,634
2 campaigns. 1 was a local campaign. 1

397
00:13:49,634 --> 00:13:52,034
was a campaign for congress. And, I I

398
00:13:52,034 --> 00:13:54,480
purposely looked for at least

399
00:13:54,940 --> 00:13:56,539
a a campaign that wouldn't have a very

400
00:13:56,539 --> 00:13:57,679
good chance of winning

401
00:13:58,059 --> 00:14:01,019
because the ones that do are pretty much

402
00:14:01,019 --> 00:14:02,779
spoken for in terms of who does what

403
00:14:02,779 --> 00:14:04,860
on on those campaigns. The ones that have

404
00:14:04,860 --> 00:14:05,839
nothing to lose,

405
00:14:06,764 --> 00:14:08,924
are more likely to take a risk on

406
00:14:08,924 --> 00:14:10,704
someone that doesn't have any experience

407
00:14:11,084 --> 00:14:13,164
and maybe would be willing to experiment a

408
00:14:13,164 --> 00:14:14,924
little bit with the, you know, different methods

409
00:14:14,924 --> 00:14:15,664
of communication.

410
00:14:16,204 --> 00:14:18,204
So at the time, I was like, well,

411
00:14:18,204 --> 00:14:20,410
I'm young. You know, what would what are

412
00:14:20,410 --> 00:14:21,450
they gonna trust me to do? So I

413
00:14:21,450 --> 00:14:22,809
was like, I'll tell them I do social

414
00:14:22,809 --> 00:14:24,649
media. Like, I will do their social media,

415
00:14:24,649 --> 00:14:26,570
their digital. So I did the pitch. They're

416
00:14:26,570 --> 00:14:27,710
like, you're young.

417
00:14:28,090 --> 00:14:29,610
You must know how to use Facebook. I'm

418
00:14:29,610 --> 00:14:30,110
like,

419
00:14:30,970 --> 00:14:33,129
yep. I definitely do. So then, you know,

420
00:14:33,129 --> 00:14:34,410
I had to teach myself all this. Are

421
00:14:34,410 --> 00:14:35,684
you friends with Tom

422
00:14:36,485 --> 00:14:37,225
from Myspace?

423
00:14:37,605 --> 00:14:40,565
Yes. Yep. Yep. Yep. That was that was,

424
00:14:40,565 --> 00:14:42,085
like, that was so funny because that was

425
00:14:42,085 --> 00:14:44,024
sort of, like, we were moving just beyond

426
00:14:44,644 --> 00:14:47,365
the Myspace era at that point and, but,

427
00:14:47,365 --> 00:14:49,800
like, know knowing Tom or who Tom was,

428
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:51,480
being able to identify that, I think, was

429
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,559
was very useful in in my,

430
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,519
in my endeavors. And then, you know, in

431
00:14:56,519 --> 00:14:58,600
in 2012 right. So, like, Facebook became a

432
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,700
huge thing in the in the Obama, reelection

433
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:02,680
campaign. So, like, social media started to kind

434
00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:03,960
of take root in some of the digital

435
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,205
media stuff in the 2008 campaign. But 2012

436
00:15:06,424 --> 00:15:07,245
really came

437
00:15:07,625 --> 00:15:09,304
into its own as a sort of a

438
00:15:09,304 --> 00:15:10,445
medium for communication,

439
00:15:11,144 --> 00:15:11,644
took,

440
00:15:12,264 --> 00:15:13,625
kind of center stage. So I had the

441
00:15:13,625 --> 00:15:15,384
opportunity to kind of get in and say,

442
00:15:15,384 --> 00:15:17,139
like, well, you know, we like, I grew

443
00:15:17,139 --> 00:15:18,980
up with this stuff. Like, as I was

444
00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:21,059
graduating high school, that's when Facebook was starting

445
00:15:21,059 --> 00:15:23,240
to get rolled out to people who had,

446
00:15:25,620 --> 00:15:26,360
who had

447
00:15:26,740 --> 00:15:28,740
access to a university email address. So this

448
00:15:28,740 --> 00:15:30,855
is before Facebook was available to everyone. It

449
00:15:30,855 --> 00:15:32,294
was just you had to have a college

450
00:15:32,294 --> 00:15:34,134
email address. Now, prior to that, I think

451
00:15:34,134 --> 00:15:35,934
it was only like Ivy League Schools, you

452
00:15:35,934 --> 00:15:37,095
know, you could get in. So but then,

453
00:15:37,095 --> 00:15:38,134
you know, it was sort of like in

454
00:15:38,134 --> 00:15:39,595
that expansion era

455
00:15:40,294 --> 00:15:42,215
of Facebook. So so yeah, that's that's sort

456
00:15:42,215 --> 00:15:43,710
of how I ended up where I am

457
00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:45,629
today is, you know, just kept doing it

458
00:15:45,629 --> 00:15:47,950
and and have been fortunate to to learn

459
00:15:47,950 --> 00:15:48,590
a lot,

460
00:15:49,070 --> 00:15:49,889
and to

461
00:15:50,590 --> 00:15:53,330
have, people in my life who have been,

462
00:15:53,710 --> 00:15:54,210
extraordinarily

463
00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:58,110
helpful mentors and and generous mentors with their

464
00:15:58,110 --> 00:16:01,625
time and and, knowledge and kept going. And

465
00:16:01,625 --> 00:16:03,544
now I have had the opportunity to do

466
00:16:03,544 --> 00:16:05,324
a lot of cool stuff in my career.

467
00:16:06,024 --> 00:16:09,144
Was that the founding of your company or

468
00:16:09,144 --> 00:16:11,144
did that come a little later? It was.

469
00:16:11,144 --> 00:16:12,284
So in 2011,

470
00:16:13,065 --> 00:16:15,240
I I technically, incorporated, and I was like,

471
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,720
alright, I'm gonna give this a shot. And

472
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,399
and, 2012 were the first two races that

473
00:16:19,399 --> 00:16:21,559
I ended up doing. And we actually ended

474
00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:23,159
up winning one of them, which is what

475
00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:24,519
the local race, which is a little bit

476
00:16:24,519 --> 00:16:26,200
of a surprise. I didn't think we were

477
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,039
going to. We ended up winning, and then

478
00:16:28,039 --> 00:16:30,215
that created a situation where I was able

479
00:16:30,215 --> 00:16:32,295
to network a bit and and meet different

480
00:16:32,295 --> 00:16:33,415
people and,

481
00:16:33,735 --> 00:16:34,955
you know, just kinda kept

482
00:16:35,415 --> 00:16:37,495
kept going, meeting new people. I met my

483
00:16:37,495 --> 00:16:39,894
business partner in 2014 a few years later

484
00:16:39,894 --> 00:16:41,815
when we were working on a campaign together.

485
00:16:42,054 --> 00:16:43,815
And and, you know, we've been growing ever

486
00:16:43,815 --> 00:16:45,409
since. So it's been,

487
00:16:46,429 --> 00:16:48,190
a little bit of luck, a little bit

488
00:16:48,190 --> 00:16:51,470
of, you know, just determination and and, you

489
00:16:51,470 --> 00:16:53,549
know, not letting, you know, a couple close

490
00:16:53,549 --> 00:16:55,309
calls, I guess, knock knock us down in

491
00:16:55,309 --> 00:16:56,990
terms of, like, mistakes that you make along

492
00:16:56,990 --> 00:16:57,730
the way, but,

493
00:16:58,125 --> 00:16:59,485
learned a lot of lessons the hard way

494
00:16:59,485 --> 00:17:01,565
for sure. What's an example of a close

495
00:17:01,565 --> 00:17:03,085
call? One of the one of the first

496
00:17:03,085 --> 00:17:04,765
things that we ever did or I ever

497
00:17:04,765 --> 00:17:06,204
did at that point was that was sort

498
00:17:06,204 --> 00:17:08,525
of just a solo act. We produced a

499
00:17:08,525 --> 00:17:09,744
television ad.

500
00:17:10,299 --> 00:17:12,400
Looking back, kind of an insane

501
00:17:12,779 --> 00:17:13,759
thing to do.

502
00:17:14,059 --> 00:17:16,799
So the idea was to air a single

503
00:17:17,420 --> 00:17:19,580
ad. So one 32nd spot. That's all the

504
00:17:19,580 --> 00:17:20,720
campaign could afford

505
00:17:21,339 --> 00:17:23,119
on a very obscure,

506
00:17:24,085 --> 00:17:27,465
local act access TV station that didn't even

507
00:17:27,684 --> 00:17:29,845
cover the area that we were running in.

508
00:17:29,845 --> 00:17:31,924
But the candidate happened to know someone at

509
00:17:31,924 --> 00:17:33,445
the network, and they were gonna carry a

510
00:17:33,445 --> 00:17:35,384
debate between him and his opponent.

511
00:17:35,730 --> 00:17:37,410
So they were like, let's just run this

512
00:17:37,410 --> 00:17:39,410
one ad during the debate. It's gonna crack

513
00:17:39,410 --> 00:17:41,329
this whole thing open, and we're gonna we're

514
00:17:41,329 --> 00:17:43,329
gonna move numbers and and move people to

515
00:17:43,329 --> 00:17:45,250
vote. Like, well, they don't no one in

516
00:17:45,250 --> 00:17:47,650
New Jersey actually watches this this television station

517
00:17:47,650 --> 00:17:50,404
because it covers, like, sort of Westchester County,

518
00:17:50,464 --> 00:17:52,484
Rockland County in New York. Like, no one

519
00:17:52,784 --> 00:17:55,365
around here watches it. So, we ended up,

520
00:17:56,224 --> 00:17:57,365
producing this ad

521
00:17:58,065 --> 00:17:58,464
and,

522
00:17:58,865 --> 00:18:00,704
spent our own money out of pocket with

523
00:18:00,704 --> 00:18:02,325
the production crew to

524
00:18:02,869 --> 00:18:04,869
to produce produce the ad, then the campaign

525
00:18:04,869 --> 00:18:07,029
just refused to pay. So this was like

526
00:18:07,029 --> 00:18:08,869
sort of a it's a wake up call,

527
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:10,789
in in business. You always get paid up

528
00:18:10,789 --> 00:18:12,549
upfront, you know, for for stuff that you're

529
00:18:12,549 --> 00:18:15,110
out of pocket on. But, instead of, you

530
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:18,924
know, telling, our our production partners that, they

531
00:18:18,924 --> 00:18:21,085
would also be out the money. I went

532
00:18:21,085 --> 00:18:23,565
into my savings and paid them for their

533
00:18:23,565 --> 00:18:25,724
services because I just think it's wrong with

534
00:18:25,724 --> 00:18:28,445
stiff people. And it was my responsibility. I

535
00:18:28,445 --> 00:18:29,404
brought them in and,

536
00:18:29,884 --> 00:18:31,164
they had the understanding that they were gonna

537
00:18:31,164 --> 00:18:32,205
get paid. So I had to go into

538
00:18:32,205 --> 00:18:34,289
my savings and pretty much took it to

539
00:18:34,289 --> 00:18:36,609
0, to pay them. From that moment on,

540
00:18:36,609 --> 00:18:38,130
it was like, okay. We're not gonna do

541
00:18:38,130 --> 00:18:40,769
that again. So we will have safeguards in

542
00:18:40,769 --> 00:18:42,849
place and, and things. So that was that

543
00:18:42,849 --> 00:18:44,369
was a close call. You know, you just

544
00:18:44,369 --> 00:18:46,464
make other minor mistakes along along the way

545
00:18:46,464 --> 00:18:48,384
as well, and you just learn things about

546
00:18:48,384 --> 00:18:50,484
business. If you've never run one, you know,

547
00:18:51,025 --> 00:18:53,025
that's unfortunately the the hardest way to learn,

548
00:18:53,025 --> 00:18:54,464
but I think probably one of the better

549
00:18:54,464 --> 00:18:55,684
ways. So, I mean, you can

550
00:18:56,065 --> 00:18:57,684
tell someone all day in a classroom,

551
00:18:58,429 --> 00:18:59,630
you know, how to run a business. But,

552
00:18:59,630 --> 00:19:01,470
you know, once you're in the room and

553
00:19:01,470 --> 00:19:04,210
you're responsible for for all of the operations

554
00:19:04,509 --> 00:19:06,049
and then everything, it

555
00:19:06,349 --> 00:19:08,109
it it takes on a totally different form.

556
00:19:08,109 --> 00:19:08,429
So,

557
00:19:09,150 --> 00:19:10,669
yeah. So that that was, you know, our

558
00:19:10,750 --> 00:19:12,669
my first big sort of shock and,

559
00:19:13,265 --> 00:19:14,945
didn't didn't kill us, which was good. And

560
00:19:14,945 --> 00:19:17,184
we were able to, we've been able to,

561
00:19:17,184 --> 00:19:19,105
you know, continue on from from there. So

562
00:19:19,424 --> 00:19:21,205
Unfortunately, it's not an uncommon

563
00:19:21,585 --> 00:19:22,565
story that

564
00:19:22,865 --> 00:19:25,664
people get taken advantage of and lose a

565
00:19:25,664 --> 00:19:27,265
shit ton of money in the process. I

566
00:19:27,265 --> 00:19:29,179
think that's happened to pretty much everyone I

567
00:19:29,179 --> 00:19:30,279
know, including myself

568
00:19:30,660 --> 00:19:34,119
while trying to make your business fly.

569
00:19:35,380 --> 00:19:37,059
It it is. Yeah. I mean, I I

570
00:19:37,059 --> 00:19:38,740
really hate that behavior. Right? The the I

571
00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:40,660
mean, because you if you contract with someone

572
00:19:40,660 --> 00:19:42,259
and you have an understanding, like, I understand

573
00:19:42,259 --> 00:19:43,880
I understand that things happen

574
00:19:44,554 --> 00:19:46,315
along the way that may might make it

575
00:19:46,315 --> 00:19:49,355
so, you know, paying a vendor or paying

576
00:19:49,355 --> 00:19:51,134
a, a service provider

577
00:19:51,914 --> 00:19:53,994
would be difficult. But I think you would

578
00:19:53,994 --> 00:19:56,335
need to have those, you know, transparent conversations

579
00:19:56,394 --> 00:19:57,890
up front. But you do see it too

580
00:19:57,890 --> 00:19:59,970
often, especially with, like, a lot of small

581
00:19:59,970 --> 00:20:01,809
businesses. You hear about horror stories where they

582
00:20:01,809 --> 00:20:03,190
just get abused by

583
00:20:03,569 --> 00:20:05,569
much larger businesses or, you know, someone will

584
00:20:05,569 --> 00:20:06,929
come back and try to go back to

585
00:20:06,929 --> 00:20:08,049
the well and say, you know what? Why

586
00:20:08,049 --> 00:20:10,375
don't you cut your cut your bill in

587
00:20:10,375 --> 00:20:12,454
half, and that's as good as you're gonna

588
00:20:12,454 --> 00:20:12,954
do,

589
00:20:13,894 --> 00:20:15,494
or sue me and you'll be in court

590
00:20:15,494 --> 00:20:17,174
forever. Like, you see that too often. It's

591
00:20:17,174 --> 00:20:19,835
really it's it's sad. It's sad to see,

592
00:20:19,894 --> 00:20:21,255
but it does it does happen. And I

593
00:20:21,255 --> 00:20:22,875
think there's this this sort of

594
00:20:23,470 --> 00:20:25,630
misconception in in business that you have to

595
00:20:25,630 --> 00:20:27,389
be that kind of like, that sort of

596
00:20:27,389 --> 00:20:30,190
smart behavior. It's not unethical. It's just smart

597
00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:32,429
business. And and that couldn't be further from

598
00:20:32,429 --> 00:20:34,349
the truth. I think relationships are very important

599
00:20:34,349 --> 00:20:35,569
and you're not gonna maintain,

600
00:20:36,194 --> 00:20:39,015
any any sort of meaningful relationship by

601
00:20:39,714 --> 00:20:41,234
doing that sort of thing to another human

602
00:20:41,234 --> 00:20:44,134
being. So anyway, that's, Also, word gets out.

603
00:20:44,434 --> 00:20:45,954
It it does. You run out of places

604
00:20:45,954 --> 00:20:47,095
to turn eventually.

605
00:20:47,794 --> 00:20:49,875
You know, you're just you just can't, you

606
00:20:49,875 --> 00:20:51,150
just can't do that sort of. I mean,

607
00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:52,509
you can, but it, you know, it all

608
00:20:52,509 --> 00:20:53,869
it all catches up. So in the short

609
00:20:53,869 --> 00:20:55,390
term, it might work out for you, but

610
00:20:55,390 --> 00:20:56,590
in the long term, I I just don't

611
00:20:56,590 --> 00:20:58,849
think. So it is, to your point, like,

612
00:20:58,910 --> 00:21:01,549
all too prevalent and very hard to watch,

613
00:21:01,549 --> 00:21:02,049
but,

614
00:21:02,509 --> 00:21:03,950
you know, we just do the best we

615
00:21:03,950 --> 00:21:05,914
can. Yeah. For sure. And we have not

616
00:21:05,914 --> 00:21:07,695
yet mentioned your company, Publicix.

617
00:21:08,154 --> 00:21:09,835
Am I saying it right? You got it.

618
00:21:09,835 --> 00:21:12,654
Nailed it. First time. It was good. Excellent.

619
00:21:13,195 --> 00:21:13,695
Excellent.

620
00:21:15,035 --> 00:21:15,855
It's interesting

621
00:21:16,234 --> 00:21:17,855
how much everything

622
00:21:18,329 --> 00:21:20,409
I mean, actually, it's not just interesting. I

623
00:21:20,409 --> 00:21:21,789
think it's slightly devastating

624
00:21:22,329 --> 00:21:24,829
how much is done online

625
00:21:25,609 --> 00:21:27,470
in terms of politic

626
00:21:28,250 --> 00:21:28,750
because

627
00:21:30,904 --> 00:21:32,505
as much as the truth can be told,

628
00:21:32,505 --> 00:21:34,345
the lies can be told, and the lies

629
00:21:34,345 --> 00:21:36,664
tend to be louder. And it's very hard

630
00:21:36,664 --> 00:21:37,804
to fight that,

631
00:21:38,664 --> 00:21:39,164
and

632
00:21:39,464 --> 00:21:41,724
there are powers that be that are

633
00:21:42,265 --> 00:21:42,765
spending

634
00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:44,789
god knows how much money

635
00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:47,750
to flood our social media with

636
00:21:48,769 --> 00:21:49,830
bullshit, basically.

637
00:21:50,369 --> 00:21:50,869
So

638
00:21:51,330 --> 00:21:52,549
how does one

639
00:21:53,009 --> 00:21:53,830
fight that?

640
00:21:55,009 --> 00:21:57,090
I'm really glad that you you said that.

641
00:21:57,090 --> 00:21:57,590
So

642
00:21:58,894 --> 00:22:00,414
there are a lot of issues. Right? So

643
00:22:00,414 --> 00:22:01,154
a lot of

644
00:22:02,255 --> 00:22:04,575
what is built into these platforms from an

645
00:22:04,575 --> 00:22:05,794
algorithmic perspective,

646
00:22:06,815 --> 00:22:07,315
it

647
00:22:07,694 --> 00:22:08,194
rewards

648
00:22:08,974 --> 00:22:10,835
what, you know, what I call, like, activating

649
00:22:10,894 --> 00:22:13,309
emotions. So, like, anger is an activating emotion.

650
00:22:13,309 --> 00:22:14,990
So if you see something that makes you

651
00:22:14,990 --> 00:22:17,170
angry, you're much more likely to share it.

652
00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:20,190
Same thing with surprise. If you're surprised by

653
00:22:20,190 --> 00:22:22,269
something, you're much more likely to share it

654
00:22:22,269 --> 00:22:24,589
with with your friends. So those things spread.

655
00:22:24,589 --> 00:22:27,115
So, you know, the algorithms and each of

656
00:22:27,115 --> 00:22:28,795
the platforms are a little bit different depending

657
00:22:28,795 --> 00:22:31,355
upon, you know, which which which platform you're

658
00:22:31,355 --> 00:22:33,275
talking about. But, like, likes, shares, all of

659
00:22:33,275 --> 00:22:34,894
those things, comments, for example,

660
00:22:35,595 --> 00:22:37,535
the more of those things that happen organically,

661
00:22:37,595 --> 00:22:38,955
the more it gets boosted up in the

662
00:22:38,955 --> 00:22:40,599
algorithm, then the more people that see it,

663
00:22:40,599 --> 00:22:42,119
then the more people that interact. So it's

664
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:43,960
sort of like a a cycle that that,

665
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:47,179
self perpetuates after, you know, the first interaction.

666
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,799
So that so that's the unfortunate part is

667
00:22:49,799 --> 00:22:50,299
that,

668
00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:53,099
things that tend to make you

669
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,179
just happy or content,

670
00:22:55,799 --> 00:22:57,934
they don't they're not really activating emotions. Right?

671
00:22:57,934 --> 00:22:59,775
So you might be happy in seeing it,

672
00:22:59,775 --> 00:23:01,455
but you're never really likely to share it.

673
00:23:01,455 --> 00:23:02,275
But you are

674
00:23:02,815 --> 00:23:05,215
much more likely to sort of rage share.

675
00:23:05,215 --> 00:23:06,815
Right? Like, oh, this makes me feel angry,

676
00:23:06,815 --> 00:23:08,735
so I'm gonna smash the share button and

677
00:23:08,735 --> 00:23:11,099
and, and and share it to my friends,

678
00:23:11,099 --> 00:23:12,079
and it's gonna

679
00:23:12,539 --> 00:23:13,900
generate all sorts of comments.

680
00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:15,820
Now the things that tend to make us

681
00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:16,320
angry,

682
00:23:17,019 --> 00:23:17,519
unfortunately,

683
00:23:18,140 --> 00:23:20,160
a lot of those things are disinformation,

684
00:23:20,940 --> 00:23:23,759
which which are crafted intentionally to tap into

685
00:23:24,744 --> 00:23:27,544
that very cycle, the the algorithm it games

686
00:23:27,544 --> 00:23:28,204
the algorithm,

687
00:23:28,825 --> 00:23:31,144
and and it's it's it's a scary thing

688
00:23:31,144 --> 00:23:32,284
because you you are,

689
00:23:33,065 --> 00:23:35,865
so much, information that that's false or or

690
00:23:35,865 --> 00:23:36,684
even misframing

691
00:23:37,065 --> 00:23:37,724
of information

692
00:23:38,105 --> 00:23:39,964
or, expectation setting

693
00:23:41,460 --> 00:23:43,640
is furnished to people who,

694
00:23:44,339 --> 00:23:45,940
and and by people I mean, like, we

695
00:23:45,940 --> 00:23:46,839
as a society,

696
00:23:47,539 --> 00:23:49,539
you know, the evolution of social media took

697
00:23:49,539 --> 00:23:50,019
place,

698
00:23:50,420 --> 00:23:52,900
so quickly, and it's still evolving so quickly,

699
00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:53,400
that

700
00:23:55,184 --> 00:23:56,845
the sort of public education

701
00:23:57,464 --> 00:23:58,845
with how to engage

702
00:23:59,224 --> 00:24:01,384
with these platforms and how to evaluate the

703
00:24:01,384 --> 00:24:03,865
information that that you see on there didn't

704
00:24:03,944 --> 00:24:05,625
it wasn't able to keep up. Right? Like,

705
00:24:05,625 --> 00:24:07,545
there just isn't, there I mean, when I

706
00:24:07,545 --> 00:24:08,820
was growing up,

707
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:10,720
when when I was in high school, for

708
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,920
example, you know, Myspace is a big thing.

709
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,799
Though not as algorithmically driven as, like, a

710
00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:18,400
Facebook, but, you know, once we all got

711
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,080
in Facebook, that was a big you know,

712
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,600
once they introduced the news feed and the

713
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,440
like buttons and different colors and things like

714
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:23,894
that,

715
00:24:24,375 --> 00:24:26,315
to to promote sharing and engagement,

716
00:24:27,015 --> 00:24:28,875
you know, that that became very algorithmically

717
00:24:30,615 --> 00:24:31,115
algorithmically

718
00:24:31,414 --> 00:24:34,394
driven. We never had like a media literacy

719
00:24:34,775 --> 00:24:36,750
class. You know, you did your history, social

720
00:24:36,910 --> 00:24:38,829
studies, you did your math, you did your,

721
00:24:39,150 --> 00:24:42,670
you know, language classes, English, literature, all of

722
00:24:42,670 --> 00:24:44,269
those things. You did type it, you know,

723
00:24:44,269 --> 00:24:45,970
you've learned how to type. I remember,

724
00:24:46,829 --> 00:24:47,490
you know,

725
00:24:48,190 --> 00:24:49,150
the learning to,

726
00:24:49,724 --> 00:24:51,404
you know, to type and and get off

727
00:24:51,404 --> 00:24:52,765
this sort of hunt and peck, you know,

728
00:24:52,765 --> 00:24:53,265
method.

729
00:24:53,644 --> 00:24:54,924
So that was the extent of it, though.

730
00:24:54,924 --> 00:24:56,525
That was the extent of the education that

731
00:24:56,525 --> 00:24:58,845
we have. Nothing prepared us for how to

732
00:24:58,845 --> 00:25:01,325
evaluate information that we were presented with on

733
00:25:01,325 --> 00:25:03,505
the Internet and, how to,

734
00:25:04,059 --> 00:25:05,980
other than, like, a couple stern warnings about

735
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:07,740
Wikipedia. Right? That that was like, oh, you

736
00:25:07,740 --> 00:25:09,660
can't source this paper from Wikipedia because, like,

737
00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:10,940
you just never know what's on there. That

738
00:25:10,940 --> 00:25:11,980
was it. That was it. That was the

739
00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:13,920
only thing that you ever heard.

740
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:17,180
And, you know, the the sort of social

741
00:25:17,180 --> 00:25:17,680
media

742
00:25:19,164 --> 00:25:20,545
was was able to,

743
00:25:21,404 --> 00:25:23,565
you know, catch momentum in a way that

744
00:25:23,565 --> 00:25:24,804
that, you know, the rest of the you

745
00:25:24,845 --> 00:25:26,445
we just didn't have context for how to

746
00:25:26,445 --> 00:25:28,625
evaluate some of this stuff. Now I think

747
00:25:29,404 --> 00:25:32,224
we're starting to realize, like, what what happens

748
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,740
when you don't have the context for evaluating

749
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:35,779
certain information.

750
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,660
And and I think you're seeing an increased

751
00:25:39,279 --> 00:25:42,160
conversation about the potential harms that social media

752
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:43,599
can do in in a number of ways.

753
00:25:43,599 --> 00:25:46,934
It's not just politically, but but also from

754
00:25:46,934 --> 00:25:48,315
a mental health perspective.

755
00:25:49,095 --> 00:25:51,575
I mean, I don't think it was very

756
00:25:51,575 --> 00:25:53,335
well understood at all what what sort of

757
00:25:53,335 --> 00:25:55,575
impact you would be faced with. But, you

758
00:25:55,575 --> 00:25:57,755
know, even now, I see certain

759
00:25:58,295 --> 00:26:00,634
content that, you know, the algorithm

760
00:26:01,330 --> 00:26:02,630
wants me to see.

761
00:26:02,930 --> 00:26:04,289
I'm lucky in that. Like, I work in

762
00:26:04,289 --> 00:26:05,809
this space. Like, I have a little bit

763
00:26:05,809 --> 00:26:07,970
of context for how to evaluate certain things

764
00:26:07,970 --> 00:26:09,970
that that I'm seeing. But for someone who

765
00:26:09,970 --> 00:26:11,890
doesn't have that context, you're seeing some of

766
00:26:11,890 --> 00:26:12,950
these things. And

767
00:26:13,804 --> 00:26:15,984
it's it's scary because it sets an expectation

768
00:26:16,204 --> 00:26:19,105
for life that is oftentimes completely

769
00:26:19,404 --> 00:26:19,904
unattainable,

770
00:26:21,724 --> 00:26:23,964
all in service of of selling you something,

771
00:26:23,964 --> 00:26:25,884
whatever it is, like a course or selling

772
00:26:25,884 --> 00:26:26,730
some sort of

773
00:26:27,210 --> 00:26:29,849
kind of, like, expertise or, like, mastermind or

774
00:26:29,849 --> 00:26:31,130
or whatever. Like, you see a lot of

775
00:26:31,130 --> 00:26:32,829
these business guru for example,

776
00:26:33,210 --> 00:26:34,650
something actually I've been thinking a lot. I

777
00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:35,849
know this is kind of taking it down

778
00:26:35,849 --> 00:26:37,049
a little bit of a tangent, but something

779
00:26:37,049 --> 00:26:38,650
I've been thinking a lot about too is

780
00:26:38,650 --> 00:26:38,809
is,

781
00:26:40,424 --> 00:26:42,904
like, how young men in particular consume social

782
00:26:42,904 --> 00:26:44,825
media. So, like, I know young young women

783
00:26:44,825 --> 00:26:47,544
have a lot of challenges, as as they

784
00:26:47,544 --> 00:26:49,005
look through social media.

785
00:26:49,544 --> 00:26:52,105
That should be absolutely, like, 100% top of

786
00:26:52,105 --> 00:26:54,970
mind. But young men also are being presented

787
00:26:54,970 --> 00:26:56,730
with things that are are harmful in a

788
00:26:56,730 --> 00:26:58,170
in a slightly different way. So, like, I'll

789
00:26:58,170 --> 00:26:59,849
give you a good example of this. So

790
00:26:59,849 --> 00:27:02,170
if you're a young man and, and this

791
00:27:02,170 --> 00:27:04,009
is actually, like, real content that I've seen,

792
00:27:04,009 --> 00:27:05,764
so hopefully I don't get, like, hate for,

793
00:27:05,924 --> 00:27:07,524
you know, what what I'm what I'm about

794
00:27:07,524 --> 00:27:09,044
to say. Maybe I will. I don't know.

795
00:27:09,044 --> 00:27:11,384
That'll drive some engagement for you. How's that?

796
00:27:11,444 --> 00:27:13,224
So we'll get the engagement up

797
00:27:13,684 --> 00:27:16,005
by, by driving some hate. But,

798
00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:19,700
I saw a clip, unironically,

799
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,240
you know, I I don't even know who

800
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,920
it was. It was some, you know, person

801
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,680
on on a podcast much much like I'm

802
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,039
talking to you right now and and with

803
00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:28,880
the straight face said, you know, if you're

804
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,474
25 years old and you haven't purchased a

805
00:27:31,474 --> 00:27:32,274
Lamborghini yet

806
00:27:32,994 --> 00:27:35,414
I saw that guy. You that guy? Yeah.

807
00:27:35,875 --> 00:27:36,375
Unbelievable.

808
00:27:37,875 --> 00:27:39,315
Like, do you know how many Lamborghinis are

809
00:27:39,315 --> 00:27:40,914
sold in the US every year? I mean,

810
00:27:40,914 --> 00:27:42,914
it's just so I I thought, is this

811
00:27:42,914 --> 00:27:44,880
a joke? I couldn't tell if he was

812
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,599
being ironic if, you know, if it was

813
00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:49,460
satire or what was happening.

814
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,039
I don't think it was. I, like, I

815
00:27:51,039 --> 00:27:52,399
don't think it No. I don't think it

816
00:27:52,399 --> 00:27:54,559
was. It's it's scary, though. Like, in the

817
00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:56,240
fact that we have to wonder if it

818
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,964
was satire is is is kind of that's

819
00:27:58,964 --> 00:27:59,944
the point. Right?

820
00:28:00,325 --> 00:28:02,164
Yeah. Life is so insane at this point

821
00:28:02,164 --> 00:28:02,664
that

822
00:28:03,365 --> 00:28:05,765
you think it's the whole of of humanity

823
00:28:05,765 --> 00:28:07,224
is being written by The Onion.

824
00:28:07,845 --> 00:28:10,164
Oh, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. It's like one

825
00:28:10,164 --> 00:28:12,265
one big onion headline after another.

826
00:28:12,964 --> 00:28:14,450
But it's real. I

827
00:28:14,829 --> 00:28:16,829
think the writer's room is is actually may

828
00:28:16,909 --> 00:28:19,069
maybe they're running the, running the show. Right?

829
00:28:19,069 --> 00:28:20,909
The onion writer's room. They've got the whole

830
00:28:20,909 --> 00:28:23,470
thing, like, feeding into a machine or something.

831
00:28:23,470 --> 00:28:23,970
Exactly.

832
00:28:24,509 --> 00:28:26,109
But you see stuff like that. Right? And

833
00:28:26,109 --> 00:28:27,869
and if you're if you're a young man

834
00:28:27,869 --> 00:28:28,929
who feels

835
00:28:29,295 --> 00:28:31,235
like, you know, he cannot get traction

836
00:28:32,095 --> 00:28:32,994
in life

837
00:28:33,695 --> 00:28:35,695
and or or perhaps, like, you are getting

838
00:28:35,695 --> 00:28:37,475
some traction, but it's not Lamborghini

839
00:28:38,255 --> 00:28:40,654
level traction. Again, like, how many Lamborghinis? A

840
00:28:40,654 --> 00:28:41,475
Honda Civic.

841
00:28:42,140 --> 00:28:44,140
Yeah. God forbid. Right? Like, I mean, like,

842
00:28:44,140 --> 00:28:45,900
I I drove, like, a Ford Fusion, you

843
00:28:45,900 --> 00:28:47,500
know, that didn't have air conditioning for a

844
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:48,640
couple years, you know,

845
00:28:48,940 --> 00:28:50,620
after college. You know what I mean? It's

846
00:28:50,620 --> 00:28:52,700
like, that's life. Right? And That is life.

847
00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:54,914
Yeah. You know, would would a Lamborghini that

848
00:28:54,914 --> 00:28:56,674
had air conditioning have been nice? Sure. If

849
00:28:56,674 --> 00:28:57,955
someone wanted to give it to me, but

850
00:28:57,955 --> 00:28:59,715
there's no way that, like, any any person

851
00:28:59,715 --> 00:29:01,234
could afford it. But, I mean, for perspective,

852
00:29:01,234 --> 00:29:02,755
I mean, I think it's, like, something like

853
00:29:02,755 --> 00:29:04,275
a 100 or so are sold every year.

854
00:29:04,275 --> 00:29:06,775
And and the number that are sold to

855
00:29:06,994 --> 00:29:08,134
25 year olds

856
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,079
is probably vanishingly small, if not 0. It

857
00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:13,059
may be the influencers

858
00:29:13,519 --> 00:29:16,240
who are tend to be younger, but yeah.

859
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:17,299
I mean, I totally

860
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,099
am right there with you. It creates

861
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:21,140
a false

862
00:29:21,845 --> 00:29:25,545
narrative that then in turn creates a toxicity

863
00:29:26,565 --> 00:29:28,744
that's probably pretty hard

864
00:29:29,045 --> 00:29:31,144
to override in a society

865
00:29:31,684 --> 00:29:34,005
across the board in general that struggles with

866
00:29:34,005 --> 00:29:35,865
self worth and self loathing

867
00:29:36,799 --> 00:29:37,940
and all of

868
00:29:38,319 --> 00:29:39,919
that. Yeah. I mean, if someone tells you,

869
00:29:39,919 --> 00:29:41,839
like, you can have this thing if you

870
00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:43,519
just try hard enough and then you try

871
00:29:43,519 --> 00:29:45,440
hard and then you can't have that thing

872
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,779
because it's it's actually insane,

873
00:29:48,704 --> 00:29:50,384
you're gonna start to develop a sense of

874
00:29:50,384 --> 00:29:52,804
resentment. And that resentment doesn't oftentimes

875
00:29:53,505 --> 00:29:55,505
or you're not pointing it inward, then you

876
00:29:55,505 --> 00:29:57,345
start to point it outward. You start to

877
00:29:57,345 --> 00:29:58,484
ask yourself, well,

878
00:29:59,184 --> 00:30:00,865
I should be able to get ahead. I've

879
00:30:00,865 --> 00:30:01,684
been told

880
00:30:01,984 --> 00:30:03,744
that I should be able to get these

881
00:30:03,744 --> 00:30:04,244
things

882
00:30:05,009 --> 00:30:05,509
without

883
00:30:05,809 --> 00:30:07,349
much effort or extraordinary,

884
00:30:08,529 --> 00:30:10,390
sort of effort, to do so.

885
00:30:11,890 --> 00:30:13,750
It can't be me. What's wrong with society?

886
00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:15,670
Right. What's wrong with this system?

887
00:30:16,210 --> 00:30:17,490
It it, you know, and then you start

888
00:30:17,490 --> 00:30:19,984
pointing fingers at at at other things. So

889
00:30:19,984 --> 00:30:21,524
then you hear about, programs

890
00:30:22,144 --> 00:30:24,325
and initiatives that are meant to

891
00:30:24,704 --> 00:30:26,325
level the playing field after,

892
00:30:26,944 --> 00:30:27,605
you know,

893
00:30:29,264 --> 00:30:30,644
the history full of inequities,

894
00:30:31,105 --> 00:30:32,940
in, in our society, right? Like it's, it's

895
00:30:32,940 --> 00:30:35,019
all a process toward developing a more level

896
00:30:35,019 --> 00:30:36,539
playing field. And and you start to see

897
00:30:36,539 --> 00:30:38,220
those things, and you start to go, well,

898
00:30:38,220 --> 00:30:40,859
that's not fair. All these people are getting

899
00:30:40,859 --> 00:30:41,359
help

900
00:30:41,819 --> 00:30:42,639
that I'm not.

901
00:30:43,419 --> 00:30:45,099
And I should be able to do these

902
00:30:45,099 --> 00:30:46,539
things. So, like, I'm just I'm gonna get

903
00:30:46,539 --> 00:30:48,694
really mad, and I'm going to,

904
00:30:48,994 --> 00:30:51,154
you know, vote in a particular way or

905
00:30:51,154 --> 00:30:52,914
act out in a violent way in the

906
00:30:52,914 --> 00:30:55,234
worst cases, which is which is very scary.

907
00:30:55,234 --> 00:30:57,255
Like, the amount of of sort of politically

908
00:30:57,394 --> 00:30:57,894
driven,

909
00:30:58,835 --> 00:31:00,774
or socially driven sort of violent

910
00:31:01,090 --> 00:31:04,210
pronouncements and and ultimately behavior in some ways

911
00:31:04,210 --> 00:31:07,269
is Yeah. Doxing. I can't even imagine

912
00:31:07,570 --> 00:31:10,289
how much that has increased over the years,

913
00:31:10,289 --> 00:31:11,670
but it's gotta be

914
00:31:12,529 --> 00:31:13,990
by large percentages.

915
00:31:15,224 --> 00:31:18,125
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That and and and physical

916
00:31:18,345 --> 00:31:19,964
violence in the world where,

917
00:31:20,345 --> 00:31:21,805
you know, people are,

918
00:31:22,585 --> 00:31:23,244
you know,

919
00:31:23,545 --> 00:31:26,204
showing up to protests with with guns

920
00:31:26,505 --> 00:31:29,759
and firing on people. Violence against women because

921
00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:32,240
your woman is supposed to be a pure

922
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,559
clean slate and she can't have, you know,

923
00:31:34,559 --> 00:31:36,099
what they call a body count.

924
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:39,440
You gotta wonder too, the mastermind behind it

925
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,859
all, or or are we just undoing ourselves

926
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,460
for the sake of

927
00:31:43,795 --> 00:31:46,695
the fact that our brains react to hate

928
00:31:46,835 --> 00:31:48,134
and violence now

929
00:31:48,674 --> 00:31:50,835
in the same way as the little cocaine

930
00:31:50,835 --> 00:31:53,414
pellet does for the mice in the maze?

931
00:31:53,634 --> 00:31:54,454
I mean, that's

932
00:31:54,755 --> 00:31:56,275
I like, some of this is just tapping

933
00:31:56,275 --> 00:31:57,779
into sort of, like, deep seated,

934
00:31:58,259 --> 00:31:58,759
evolutionary,

935
00:31:59,460 --> 00:32:01,140
leftovers, you know, in our brain. Stuff that

936
00:32:01,140 --> 00:32:03,160
we, like, don't even necessarily need anymore,

937
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:05,940
but but just exists because, you know, we

938
00:32:05,940 --> 00:32:07,799
had to defend ourselves against,

939
00:32:08,820 --> 00:32:10,259
you know, warfare. I mean, like, you know,

940
00:32:10,259 --> 00:32:12,580
human beings are tribal by nature. Right? Like,

941
00:32:12,580 --> 00:32:13,154
you you

942
00:32:13,955 --> 00:32:14,695
group into

943
00:32:15,394 --> 00:32:16,134
into tribes

944
00:32:16,994 --> 00:32:18,455
and identify out groups

945
00:32:18,835 --> 00:32:21,255
and threats and, you know,

946
00:32:21,715 --> 00:32:22,914
going all the way back to when, you

947
00:32:22,914 --> 00:32:24,115
know, you used to have to run away

948
00:32:24,115 --> 00:32:24,186
from, you know, saber toothed tigers while you're

949
00:32:24,186 --> 00:32:24,257
trying to, like, hunt and and and gather

950
00:32:24,257 --> 00:32:26,130
berries, like, in in saber toothed tigers while

951
00:32:26,130 --> 00:32:27,890
you're trying to, like, hunt and and and

952
00:32:27,890 --> 00:32:29,970
gather berries, like, in in, you know, the,

953
00:32:30,049 --> 00:32:31,490
in the forest. So it's like I mean,

954
00:32:31,490 --> 00:32:34,690
that's obviously like a Yeah. Little anachronistic there.

955
00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:34,930
But,

956
00:32:35,809 --> 00:32:37,250
but the the point being is, like, you

957
00:32:37,250 --> 00:32:39,365
know, there there are a lot of, sort

958
00:32:39,365 --> 00:32:42,164
of areas that evolutionarily, like, we sort of

959
00:32:42,164 --> 00:32:44,325
developed these mechanisms because it led to our

960
00:32:44,325 --> 00:32:47,365
survival as a species. But, like, now, you

961
00:32:47,365 --> 00:32:50,325
know, we have an increasingly connected, for better

962
00:32:50,325 --> 00:32:52,644
for worse world, and there's some reasons why

963
00:32:52,644 --> 00:32:54,990
it's better because we're connected and and able

964
00:32:54,990 --> 00:32:56,190
to learn more and and,

965
00:32:56,589 --> 00:32:58,269
connect more with people in different parts of

966
00:32:58,269 --> 00:32:59,250
the world and,

967
00:33:00,029 --> 00:33:02,029
you know, get information out there. But there's

968
00:33:02,029 --> 00:33:03,869
there's also a downside to that too because

969
00:33:03,869 --> 00:33:06,450
we haven't totally shed those sort of bad

970
00:33:06,544 --> 00:33:09,025
sort of habits that that exist within us.

971
00:33:09,025 --> 00:33:09,664
So it's,

972
00:33:10,464 --> 00:33:12,144
I mean, again, which is why anger is

973
00:33:12,144 --> 00:33:14,464
such an activating emotion because if anger doesn't

974
00:33:14,464 --> 00:33:15,845
activate you to do something,

975
00:33:16,464 --> 00:33:16,964
then

976
00:33:17,424 --> 00:33:19,825
there is no evolutionary purpose for being angry.

977
00:33:19,825 --> 00:33:21,765
Right? There's no reason to,

978
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,960
to have that around anymore. So it's, it's

979
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:27,119
sort of an interesting, interesting thing. Like, I

980
00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:29,119
mean, you know, if, again, I think, you

981
00:33:29,119 --> 00:33:30,720
know, you're sort of part of a hunter

982
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:31,700
gatherer society

983
00:33:32,399 --> 00:33:32,899
and,

984
00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:34,659
you needed anxiety,

985
00:33:35,039 --> 00:33:36,875
for example, or anger. Like, all of those

986
00:33:36,875 --> 00:33:39,194
things function to get you to move, to

987
00:33:39,194 --> 00:33:39,855
do something

988
00:33:40,315 --> 00:33:42,154
in the face of a a profound threat

989
00:33:42,154 --> 00:33:45,115
to your life or your tribe tribal or

990
00:33:45,115 --> 00:33:47,194
your group's life, whatever, you know,

991
00:33:47,914 --> 00:33:50,200
whatever sort of group, you were in. So

992
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,200
it's definitely an interesting interesting thing how that

993
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,759
translates to a world where we are very

994
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:56,920
connected. We do have access to social media.

995
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,180
Any a lot of people have

996
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:00,380
a platform

997
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,160
now that they I mean, if you have

998
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,434
a microphone like the one I'm sitting in

999
00:34:05,434 --> 00:34:07,035
front of and pair of headphones and a

1000
00:34:07,035 --> 00:34:08,894
computer and a webcam, you can

1001
00:34:10,155 --> 00:34:12,394
do you you have a platform essentially in

1002
00:34:12,394 --> 00:34:15,535
a way that you wouldn't have had before.

1003
00:34:15,755 --> 00:34:16,795
You used to have to go

1004
00:34:17,460 --> 00:34:19,539
there used to be some some filter. Right?

1005
00:34:19,539 --> 00:34:20,840
Like, if you think about,

1006
00:34:21,619 --> 00:34:23,219
the news, right, and and the and the

1007
00:34:23,219 --> 00:34:25,239
role that journalism played in in certain,

1008
00:34:25,859 --> 00:34:28,500
circumstances. Like, you know, Cronkite, for example. Right?

1009
00:34:28,500 --> 00:34:31,139
Like, it was all filtered through that, and

1010
00:34:31,139 --> 00:34:33,875
some random person wouldn't just go on Cronkite

1011
00:34:34,015 --> 00:34:35,775
because they're just a random person who had

1012
00:34:35,775 --> 00:34:37,934
some ID thing. It was usually, there were

1013
00:34:37,934 --> 00:34:38,434
some

1014
00:34:38,894 --> 00:34:40,015
vetting that went on,

1015
00:34:40,974 --> 00:34:42,815
related to the information that was gonna be

1016
00:34:42,815 --> 00:34:45,269
relayed in in whatever interview. So so that

1017
00:34:45,389 --> 00:34:47,389
so now we we all have, you know,

1018
00:34:47,389 --> 00:34:48,829
a phone if you have a phone, right,

1019
00:34:48,829 --> 00:34:50,289
you can jump on TikTok

1020
00:34:50,670 --> 00:34:51,170
and

1021
00:34:51,469 --> 00:34:53,869
do something and go viral and all of

1022
00:34:53,869 --> 00:34:55,630
a sudden become fame. I mean, you see

1023
00:34:55,630 --> 00:34:58,644
it with, like, viral, like, celebrity, you know,

1024
00:34:58,644 --> 00:35:00,244
people who have just, like, a random moment

1025
00:35:00,244 --> 00:35:02,244
on an interview somewhere in someone else's channel,

1026
00:35:02,244 --> 00:35:03,545
and then all of a sudden they become

1027
00:35:03,924 --> 00:35:06,644
Yeah. They get signed to agencies, and they

1028
00:35:06,644 --> 00:35:09,525
go on talk shows. And Yeah. And it's

1029
00:35:09,525 --> 00:35:12,130
it's interesting. It's a Black Mirror episode. And

1030
00:35:12,130 --> 00:35:14,150
I wonder I mean, certainly,

1031
00:35:14,530 --> 00:35:16,690
there are powerful people that love to see

1032
00:35:16,690 --> 00:35:19,170
the chaos because it's pretty easy to control

1033
00:35:19,170 --> 00:35:21,030
people when they're being chaotic.

1034
00:35:21,809 --> 00:35:25,409
But I'm wondering if the pendulum will swing

1035
00:35:25,409 --> 00:35:26,390
back and

1036
00:35:27,384 --> 00:35:29,545
we will get placated somehow. The only way

1037
00:35:29,545 --> 00:35:31,884
I can see it now logically is if

1038
00:35:32,424 --> 00:35:33,804
something were to destroy

1039
00:35:34,344 --> 00:35:35,005
the Internet.

1040
00:35:35,384 --> 00:35:35,884
But

1041
00:35:36,264 --> 00:35:37,565
again, to your point,

1042
00:35:38,424 --> 00:35:40,949
it's hard because thanks to the Internet, we've

1043
00:35:40,949 --> 00:35:42,250
been able to see injustices

1044
00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:45,050
or bring down regimes that were horrific

1045
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:47,989
or just get the word out about important

1046
00:35:47,989 --> 00:35:51,590
issues or fundraise for the Smiths whose house

1047
00:35:51,590 --> 00:35:54,309
burned down. Whatever it is, obviously, it can

1048
00:35:54,309 --> 00:35:55,530
be used for good

1049
00:35:56,125 --> 00:35:58,065
As much as we are

1050
00:35:58,845 --> 00:36:00,704
horrifying to each other at times,

1051
00:36:01,325 --> 00:36:03,505
our sense of altruism and goodness

1052
00:36:04,684 --> 00:36:07,805
also rises to the occasion. I'm not sure

1053
00:36:08,125 --> 00:36:11,105
me, personally, Susan, I'm not sure why

1054
00:36:11,859 --> 00:36:13,079
it feels like

1055
00:36:13,539 --> 00:36:14,359
the negativity

1056
00:36:14,659 --> 00:36:17,460
is so much more popular. Like, people just

1057
00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:18,679
love to be pissed.

1058
00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:21,139
And I don't know if there's an antidote

1059
00:36:21,139 --> 00:36:23,079
to that or if it's just that loud

1060
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:25,000
people who are angry or louder.

1061
00:36:25,380 --> 00:36:28,144
Yeah. I I don't know. Some element of

1062
00:36:28,144 --> 00:36:28,625
that,

1063
00:36:29,105 --> 00:36:30,724
where where you do have,

1064
00:36:31,105 --> 00:36:33,025
I would say the majority of people are

1065
00:36:33,025 --> 00:36:34,085
not tuned in

1066
00:36:34,625 --> 00:36:35,125
enough

1067
00:36:36,465 --> 00:36:36,965
for

1068
00:36:37,344 --> 00:36:39,425
for them to be that angry about whatever

1069
00:36:39,425 --> 00:36:41,500
given thing. Like, so this is interesting because

1070
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:43,019
it does filter down to even, like, the

1071
00:36:43,019 --> 00:36:44,539
local level. So, like, we we have, you

1072
00:36:44,539 --> 00:36:46,220
know, every town I feel like in America

1073
00:36:46,220 --> 00:36:48,160
has, like, a dedicated Facebook group,

1074
00:36:48,619 --> 00:36:50,300
you know, that, that people sort of or

1075
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:51,840
or, Nextiva. Store,

1076
00:36:52,220 --> 00:36:53,360
which is insane.

1077
00:36:54,035 --> 00:36:55,255
I stay out in the store.

1078
00:36:55,715 --> 00:36:57,094
My god. It's so crazy.

1079
00:36:57,394 --> 00:36:58,835
It's hard it's hard to watch with even

1080
00:36:58,835 --> 00:37:00,755
the Facebook groups. Right? So we have one,

1081
00:37:01,075 --> 00:37:01,575
in

1082
00:37:01,954 --> 00:37:03,735
in town, and and there was a restaurant,

1083
00:37:05,155 --> 00:37:06,755
you know, down on on the main drag,

1084
00:37:06,994 --> 00:37:08,835
a little bit, a few miles from where

1085
00:37:08,835 --> 00:37:09,815
we are. And

1086
00:37:10,409 --> 00:37:11,869
their landscaper just

1087
00:37:12,329 --> 00:37:14,409
didn't show up, you know, for a week,

1088
00:37:14,409 --> 00:37:16,170
and the grass was getting a little long

1089
00:37:16,170 --> 00:37:18,589
in front. And the the

1090
00:37:18,889 --> 00:37:21,609
someone decided to take to this Facebook group

1091
00:37:21,609 --> 00:37:22,510
to absolutely,

1092
00:37:23,574 --> 00:37:24,594
you know,

1093
00:37:25,214 --> 00:37:28,094
lecture this this business owner on the fact

1094
00:37:28,094 --> 00:37:29,855
that their grass was getting so long. It

1095
00:37:29,855 --> 00:37:31,934
was, you know, an abomination, you know, to

1096
00:37:31,934 --> 00:37:33,694
the town. You would you would have thought

1097
00:37:33,694 --> 00:37:35,934
that this person, the business owner, the restaurant

1098
00:37:35,934 --> 00:37:37,795
owner, committed some sort of atrocity,

1099
00:37:38,180 --> 00:37:40,099
But I've you know, you feel terrible, and

1100
00:37:40,099 --> 00:37:42,660
it was it was probably 300 comments deep,

1101
00:37:42,660 --> 00:37:45,140
most of them very negative. And, you know,

1102
00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:47,059
eventually at the end, I guess, someone let

1103
00:37:47,059 --> 00:37:49,000
him know that this was happening.

1104
00:37:49,619 --> 00:37:50,900
And, you know, he got in there and

1105
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:52,840
he's like, I am so sorry. My landscaper,

1106
00:37:53,059 --> 00:37:55,034
you know, just couldn't make it this week.

1107
00:37:55,034 --> 00:37:56,574
I'm gonna go out and buy a lawnmower

1108
00:37:56,635 --> 00:37:57,994
and take care of it myself. We've just

1109
00:37:57,994 --> 00:38:00,234
been really busy. And it's like, you know,

1110
00:38:00,234 --> 00:38:01,514
you don't know what's going on in that

1111
00:38:01,514 --> 00:38:03,775
person's life. Like, why are you what is

1112
00:38:04,795 --> 00:38:06,474
it's not near your I promise you. There's

1113
00:38:06,474 --> 00:38:08,394
no one live lives, like, across the street

1114
00:38:08,394 --> 00:38:10,079
from this this restaurant. It's not even like

1115
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:11,279
you have to look at it. You drive

1116
00:38:11,279 --> 00:38:12,099
by it. Like,

1117
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:14,319
just let it go. But there is, like,

1118
00:38:14,319 --> 00:38:14,819
this

1119
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:16,659
instinct to

1120
00:38:18,319 --> 00:38:21,119
say something negative. Even at that level, it's

1121
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:22,639
not I mean, we're not talking about issues

1122
00:38:22,639 --> 00:38:25,068
of national importance now. We're talking Right. Grass.

1123
00:38:25,121 --> 00:38:27,094
Grass a little bit too long. And the

1124
00:38:27,094 --> 00:38:29,494
fact that someone would be compelled or 300

1125
00:38:29,494 --> 00:38:31,815
people would be compelled to complain about it

1126
00:38:31,815 --> 00:38:33,574
and not one of those people thought, you

1127
00:38:33,574 --> 00:38:34,635
know what? I have a lawnmower.

1128
00:38:34,934 --> 00:38:36,695
I'm just gonna go spend an hour and

1129
00:38:36,695 --> 00:38:38,074
cut this grass because,

1130
00:38:38,989 --> 00:38:40,929
you know, it's a nice thing to do

1131
00:38:40,989 --> 00:38:41,809
that our

1132
00:38:42,349 --> 00:38:42,849
proclivities

1133
00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:45,469
don't lead in that direction is a real

1134
00:38:45,469 --> 00:38:49,089
freaking bummer to me. And I worry because

1135
00:38:49,150 --> 00:38:51,230
as we get more and more humans on

1136
00:38:51,230 --> 00:38:51,969
this planet

1137
00:38:52,269 --> 00:38:54,609
who have not the skill set

1138
00:38:56,465 --> 00:38:57,765
to fight that urge.

1139
00:38:58,785 --> 00:39:01,204
I I mean, I understand that reptilian brains,

1140
00:39:01,265 --> 00:39:02,405
I I get that,

1141
00:39:02,785 --> 00:39:05,125
but we have evolved as a species

1142
00:39:05,744 --> 00:39:06,244
mostly

1143
00:39:06,864 --> 00:39:07,364
that

1144
00:39:07,750 --> 00:39:10,070
you would think that we would not it

1145
00:39:10,150 --> 00:39:12,309
it's speaking to a bigger problem. I think

1146
00:39:12,309 --> 00:39:14,390
that we're using this, as you said, as

1147
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:15,130
this outlet

1148
00:39:15,510 --> 00:39:17,989
for a rage or discontent that we don't

1149
00:39:17,989 --> 00:39:19,450
even know how to touch,

1150
00:39:20,070 --> 00:39:22,230
and all we can do is aim it

1151
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:22,730
outward

1152
00:39:23,364 --> 00:39:24,184
and attack

1153
00:39:24,885 --> 00:39:27,605
because it's the easiest thing in the world

1154
00:39:27,605 --> 00:39:28,265
to do.

1155
00:39:29,684 --> 00:39:31,605
It it is. And and I think part

1156
00:39:31,605 --> 00:39:33,305
of it too is it just simplifies

1157
00:39:33,684 --> 00:39:34,184
everything.

1158
00:39:34,565 --> 00:39:36,505
You know, there there's good and there's bad,

1159
00:39:36,940 --> 00:39:37,599
and that's

1160
00:39:37,980 --> 00:39:38,640
it. And,

1161
00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:40,940
you know, there's a lot of gray area.

1162
00:39:40,940 --> 00:39:42,300
Now I do do I think that there

1163
00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:43,920
are things that are mostly good

1164
00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:46,000
and mostly bad? Absolutely.

1165
00:39:46,860 --> 00:39:48,480
And and there are objectively,

1166
00:39:49,179 --> 00:39:51,260
in my opinion, objectively things that are good

1167
00:39:51,260 --> 00:39:53,305
and bad. Right? But but for most

1168
00:39:53,605 --> 00:39:56,164
issues, there is a lot of nuance, a

1169
00:39:56,164 --> 00:39:56,825
lot of

1170
00:39:57,684 --> 00:39:58,184
imperfection

1171
00:39:58,565 --> 00:39:59,065
in

1172
00:39:59,605 --> 00:40:00,105
how

1173
00:40:00,644 --> 00:40:02,985
one might deal with a particular issue,

1174
00:40:04,005 --> 00:40:06,325
but that's not very satisfying. Right? Nuance is

1175
00:40:06,325 --> 00:40:08,989
hard. Nuance takes work. And anger,

1176
00:40:09,929 --> 00:40:12,090
and and creating sort of this black and

1177
00:40:12,090 --> 00:40:13,630
white, you know, sort of binary

1178
00:40:14,329 --> 00:40:16,090
of, you know, yes or no. I think

1179
00:40:16,090 --> 00:40:16,590
that

1180
00:40:17,449 --> 00:40:20,250
that just simplifies things very the the things

1181
00:40:20,250 --> 00:40:21,690
things that don't need to be simplified. And

1182
00:40:21,690 --> 00:40:22,989
again, I think there are

1183
00:40:23,655 --> 00:40:24,155
simple

1184
00:40:24,535 --> 00:40:27,914
choices and simple contrast in certain circumstances, but

1185
00:40:27,974 --> 00:40:29,894
most things in life, there is there is

1186
00:40:29,894 --> 00:40:31,515
a vast gulf of

1187
00:40:32,054 --> 00:40:33,994
of gray area nuance of

1188
00:40:34,375 --> 00:40:35,914
understanding that needs to happen,

1189
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:38,260
you know, before before you jump in. So

1190
00:40:38,260 --> 00:40:39,539
I do think there is there is some

1191
00:40:39,539 --> 00:40:41,059
element of that. I'd be like, okay. How

1192
00:40:41,059 --> 00:40:43,699
can we just, like, simplify this and, like,

1193
00:40:43,699 --> 00:40:45,380
figure out how to manage this issue? It's

1194
00:40:45,380 --> 00:40:46,739
like, okay. I'm gonna be angry at this.

1195
00:40:46,739 --> 00:40:49,000
And then that's it. That's simple. Easy.

1196
00:40:49,635 --> 00:40:52,534
Yeah. Well, it seems like in politics that

1197
00:40:52,914 --> 00:40:54,215
there is one

1198
00:40:54,914 --> 00:40:56,695
one side who definitely understands

1199
00:40:57,715 --> 00:40:58,215
the

1200
00:40:58,515 --> 00:40:59,015
inclination

1201
00:40:59,394 --> 00:41:00,215
to to

1202
00:41:00,515 --> 00:41:01,015
inflame

1203
00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:03,930
and that that can be an advantage.

1204
00:41:04,309 --> 00:41:06,630
And then there's another side that doesn't seem

1205
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:09,289
to want to engage that under that

1206
00:41:10,070 --> 00:41:11,210
obvious thing,

1207
00:41:11,670 --> 00:41:12,170
and

1208
00:41:12,789 --> 00:41:15,289
I'm curious to see what your thoughts are

1209
00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:17,050
of how that would play out.

1210
00:41:17,445 --> 00:41:20,005
When you go high, if they're just always

1211
00:41:20,005 --> 00:41:20,825
going low,

1212
00:41:21,525 --> 00:41:23,204
what do you what do you do in

1213
00:41:23,204 --> 00:41:25,844
that scenario, especially for somebody like you whose

1214
00:41:25,844 --> 00:41:27,385
job it is to help

1215
00:41:27,925 --> 00:41:28,985
elect someone?

1216
00:41:30,199 --> 00:41:31,019
Sure. Absolutely.

1217
00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:33,480
So I I think and you're gonna get

1218
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:33,639
a,

1219
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,839
a real sense of of where my political

1220
00:41:36,839 --> 00:41:38,679
leanings are. It's a tricky thing to ask,

1221
00:41:38,679 --> 00:41:40,839
right? Because I know I have a feeling

1222
00:41:40,839 --> 00:41:43,019
we're both on the same page politically.

1223
00:41:43,639 --> 00:41:44,139
But

1224
00:41:44,744 --> 00:41:47,224
this question this is what frustrates me about

1225
00:41:47,224 --> 00:41:47,964
this country.

1226
00:41:48,344 --> 00:41:51,304
The question I'm asking isn't really it's not

1227
00:41:51,304 --> 00:41:53,105
about party. It's about

1228
00:41:53,545 --> 00:41:54,684
it's just the convulsions

1229
00:41:55,065 --> 00:41:57,964
that people have towards something and the the

1230
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:00,980
the way they operate in general. Like, we

1231
00:42:00,980 --> 00:42:02,820
talked about in the beginning, the people who

1232
00:42:02,820 --> 00:42:04,500
decide they're gonna pay for something or not

1233
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:05,320
pay for something.

1234
00:42:05,860 --> 00:42:07,699
Now do you know what I mean? Like,

1235
00:42:07,699 --> 00:42:09,380
it it's it's hard to ask a question

1236
00:42:09,380 --> 00:42:11,460
like this because immediately someone's like, oh, that's

1237
00:42:11,460 --> 00:42:13,815
a political thing. You just hate all blah.

1238
00:42:13,815 --> 00:42:14,954
I don't hate all anybody,

1239
00:42:16,135 --> 00:42:17,675
but I can see what's happening.

1240
00:42:19,175 --> 00:42:21,034
Absolutely. So this this is a conversation

1241
00:42:21,574 --> 00:42:24,694
that I've, interestingly enough, have been having more

1242
00:42:24,694 --> 00:42:25,514
in my

1243
00:42:26,710 --> 00:42:29,349
personal life because you're able to have those

1244
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:32,630
sort of nuanced conversations about about things. So

1245
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:34,010
I think that

1246
00:42:35,190 --> 00:42:36,969
whether you agree or disagree

1247
00:42:37,510 --> 00:42:38,010
with

1248
00:42:38,795 --> 00:42:40,555
or or or I should say in the

1249
00:42:40,555 --> 00:42:42,735
past tense, agreed or disagreed

1250
00:42:43,035 --> 00:42:45,914
with how, for example, the Republican party was

1251
00:42:45,914 --> 00:42:46,815
handling things,

1252
00:42:48,315 --> 00:42:50,555
at least most of the time, you could

1253
00:42:50,555 --> 00:42:53,135
have a pretty good sense that

1254
00:42:54,090 --> 00:42:56,570
the people running for president in that party

1255
00:42:56,570 --> 00:42:58,329
running for office, not all of them, but

1256
00:42:58,329 --> 00:42:58,829
most,

1257
00:42:59,690 --> 00:43:00,190
had,

1258
00:43:01,289 --> 00:43:02,829
would would adhere to

1259
00:43:04,090 --> 00:43:04,829
the norms

1260
00:43:05,130 --> 00:43:05,869
and standards

1261
00:43:06,664 --> 00:43:07,164
and,

1262
00:43:07,625 --> 00:43:08,684
sort of democratic

1263
00:43:09,224 --> 00:43:11,484
guardrails that exist in this country,

1264
00:43:12,505 --> 00:43:14,764
that enable us to have conversations,

1265
00:43:15,465 --> 00:43:16,925
difficult political conversations,

1266
00:43:17,304 --> 00:43:19,244
and allow us to change direction

1267
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,960
if the voters choose to change direction. Within

1268
00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:22,940
with integrity.

1269
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,599
With integrity. Yes. With integrity. I mean, but,

1270
00:43:26,599 --> 00:43:28,760
you know, relative in that way. Relatively. Yeah.

1271
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,280
Politics has always been ugly. Right? Like, if

1272
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:31,640
you look back at the Nixon years, right,

1273
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:33,305
they were all up to dirty bricks and,

1274
00:43:33,305 --> 00:43:35,224
you know, they had, you know, whole, sort

1275
00:43:35,224 --> 00:43:37,945
of little little teams dedicated to doing nasty

1276
00:43:37,945 --> 00:43:39,945
thing. And then, unfortunately, a lot of those

1277
00:43:39,945 --> 00:43:40,925
people are still

1278
00:43:41,305 --> 00:43:43,785
kicking around, Republican politics today. You know, the

1279
00:43:43,785 --> 00:43:45,305
Roger Stones of the world. I mean, you

1280
00:43:45,305 --> 00:43:46,925
know, he's got that big old Nixon

1281
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,359
tattoo on back tat, you know, shoulder blade

1282
00:43:50,359 --> 00:43:52,059
to shoulder blade. But,

1283
00:43:52,519 --> 00:43:54,519
you know so, like, it's always been a

1284
00:43:54,519 --> 00:43:55,719
little bit like that. But at the end

1285
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,400
of the day, you know, you could always

1286
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,359
have some some degree of of confidence that

1287
00:44:00,359 --> 00:44:02,859
the person in the White House, after their

1288
00:44:03,005 --> 00:44:04,844
8 years was up or if they lost

1289
00:44:04,844 --> 00:44:07,505
after 4 years, that they would move on

1290
00:44:07,724 --> 00:44:09,405
and the next person would come in and

1291
00:44:09,405 --> 00:44:10,385
that they would,

1292
00:44:10,684 --> 00:44:12,204
out of a love for this country and

1293
00:44:12,204 --> 00:44:12,864
a hope

1294
00:44:13,244 --> 00:44:14,385
that they would

1295
00:44:14,684 --> 00:44:17,164
that the country succeeds genuinely may not agree

1296
00:44:17,164 --> 00:44:18,890
with how the other side wants to get

1297
00:44:18,890 --> 00:44:19,390
there,

1298
00:44:19,769 --> 00:44:22,329
but at least a shared agreement that they

1299
00:44:22,329 --> 00:44:24,750
want to see this country succeed would help

1300
00:44:25,130 --> 00:44:26,110
the next person

1301
00:44:26,570 --> 00:44:27,869
transition into office.

1302
00:44:28,730 --> 00:44:31,230
And I think what we've seen since 2016

1303
00:44:31,530 --> 00:44:32,910
is a complete shattering

1304
00:44:33,954 --> 00:44:34,934
of that basic

1305
00:44:35,394 --> 00:44:38,135
norm. So we're not having this conversation anymore

1306
00:44:38,275 --> 00:44:38,775
about

1307
00:44:40,355 --> 00:44:43,094
from a a policy perspective. Right? And

1308
00:44:43,394 --> 00:44:44,534
and I I think

1309
00:44:44,835 --> 00:44:46,690
that if we cannot start so this is

1310
00:44:46,690 --> 00:44:48,210
this is where where I I get to

1311
00:44:48,210 --> 00:44:49,650
is, like, if we cannot start from a

1312
00:44:49,650 --> 00:44:50,869
place where

1313
00:44:52,050 --> 00:44:53,190
both sides agree

1314
00:44:53,809 --> 00:44:56,130
that elections matter, the results of the election

1315
00:44:56,130 --> 00:44:58,150
should be adhered to, that,

1316
00:44:58,905 --> 00:44:59,405
fundamentally,

1317
00:45:00,105 --> 00:45:02,905
that we should strive to have as many

1318
00:45:02,905 --> 00:45:03,405
people,

1319
00:45:03,864 --> 00:45:04,265
many,

1320
00:45:04,664 --> 00:45:08,125
Americans as many American citizens as possible participate

1321
00:45:08,265 --> 00:45:10,824
in that political process. Not silence voices, not

1322
00:45:10,824 --> 00:45:12,844
make it harder for those people to participate,

1323
00:45:12,985 --> 00:45:13,485
but

1324
00:45:14,109 --> 00:45:14,609
expand

1325
00:45:14,909 --> 00:45:16,750
and do whatever we can to get the

1326
00:45:16,750 --> 00:45:20,130
the most voices into the political process.

1327
00:45:20,429 --> 00:45:23,010
Like, if we fundamentally cannot agree on that,

1328
00:45:23,710 --> 00:45:24,210
then

1329
00:45:25,230 --> 00:45:26,989
the one side the one side that doesn't

1330
00:45:26,989 --> 00:45:29,010
believe that people should have a voice,

1331
00:45:29,355 --> 00:45:31,594
that doesn't believe that we should adhere to

1332
00:45:31,594 --> 00:45:32,094
elections,

1333
00:45:32,394 --> 00:45:33,755
that that I I think we're having a

1334
00:45:33,755 --> 00:45:36,155
completely different conversation now. We're not talking about

1335
00:45:36,155 --> 00:45:38,815
politics anymore. We are talking about the existential

1336
00:45:39,914 --> 00:45:40,894
threat to

1337
00:45:41,460 --> 00:45:44,500
the fundamental fabric of this country. And and

1338
00:45:44,500 --> 00:45:45,320
I I think

1339
00:45:45,780 --> 00:45:46,280
the

1340
00:45:47,219 --> 00:45:49,719
way that we talk about democracy in general

1341
00:45:50,099 --> 00:45:50,599
is

1342
00:45:51,940 --> 00:45:54,019
maybe a little flawed. Right? Because I think

1343
00:45:54,019 --> 00:45:56,045
there is a fair case to make that

1344
00:45:56,045 --> 00:45:57,885
when when you say, well, we have to

1345
00:45:57,885 --> 00:45:58,785
protect democracy.

1346
00:46:00,365 --> 00:46:01,825
That there are a lot of people

1347
00:46:02,765 --> 00:46:04,445
in this country, a lot of groups of

1348
00:46:04,445 --> 00:46:04,945
people

1349
00:46:05,244 --> 00:46:07,025
who have not been well served

1350
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:10,880
by our institutions historically. Right? Our institutions

1351
00:46:11,420 --> 00:46:13,579
are imperfect. Right? That there have been a

1352
00:46:13,579 --> 00:46:15,440
lot of injustices in this country.

1353
00:46:16,300 --> 00:46:18,400
So when you say we wanna protect democracy,

1354
00:46:19,179 --> 00:46:21,500
just as sort of a blanket statement, they

1355
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:22,960
they feel as if

1356
00:46:23,364 --> 00:46:25,765
you're protecting a system that fundamentally doesn't work

1357
00:46:25,765 --> 00:46:27,704
for them and hasn't ever worked for them.

1358
00:46:27,844 --> 00:46:29,465
But really what it is,

1359
00:46:30,085 --> 00:46:32,905
in my mind, what democracy is, is protecting

1360
00:46:33,765 --> 00:46:34,505
our ability

1361
00:46:34,885 --> 00:46:36,905
to continue to improve the system

1362
00:46:37,489 --> 00:46:39,170
that we have, to continue to make the

1363
00:46:39,170 --> 00:46:40,710
changes that we need to make,

1364
00:46:41,250 --> 00:46:43,329
to continue to level the playing field, to

1365
00:46:43,329 --> 00:46:45,969
continue to create an economy that works for

1366
00:46:45,969 --> 00:46:48,289
for a greater number of people in this

1367
00:46:48,289 --> 00:46:51,304
country. Right? It's like the capacity. Democracy when

1368
00:46:51,304 --> 00:46:52,824
we when I think that's what we have

1369
00:46:52,824 --> 00:46:54,344
to talk about when we talk about democracy

1370
00:46:54,344 --> 00:46:56,444
is protecting that capacity

1371
00:46:57,304 --> 00:46:58,125
for people,

1372
00:46:58,904 --> 00:46:59,644
every day,

1373
00:46:59,944 --> 00:47:02,684
you know, working hardworking Americans to have

1374
00:47:03,050 --> 00:47:05,849
their voice heard in that process. And if

1375
00:47:05,849 --> 00:47:07,690
you get rid of elections and you get

1376
00:47:07,690 --> 00:47:09,289
rid of the guardrails and you make it

1377
00:47:09,289 --> 00:47:11,150
okay to fundamentally

1378
00:47:11,530 --> 00:47:13,389
influence our political process

1379
00:47:13,769 --> 00:47:16,315
by brute force and violence, you are taking

1380
00:47:16,315 --> 00:47:18,315
away those voices. And then who wins in

1381
00:47:18,315 --> 00:47:20,635
that case? Right? Whose voices are heard in

1382
00:47:20,635 --> 00:47:21,375
that system?

1383
00:47:22,315 --> 00:47:24,315
It's not gonna be the hardworking Americans. It's

1384
00:47:24,315 --> 00:47:25,775
not gonna be people who

1385
00:47:26,394 --> 00:47:28,929
want to see more progress on, you know,

1386
00:47:28,929 --> 00:47:31,489
affordability and housing. It's not gonna be people

1387
00:47:31,489 --> 00:47:31,989
who,

1388
00:47:32,289 --> 00:47:32,949
have benefited,

1389
00:47:34,449 --> 00:47:36,929
from recent investments in cleaning up drinking water.

1390
00:47:36,929 --> 00:47:38,690
It's not gonna be the people who rely

1391
00:47:38,690 --> 00:47:41,534
on insulin and have had those those prices

1392
00:47:41,534 --> 00:47:43,694
capped in this past administration, in the current

1393
00:47:43,694 --> 00:47:46,734
administration, the Biden administration. So, like, you're you're

1394
00:47:46,734 --> 00:47:48,434
just not gonna have the capacity

1395
00:47:48,734 --> 00:47:50,594
to fundamentally improve the system.

1396
00:47:50,894 --> 00:47:51,775
Like and I think,

1397
00:47:52,894 --> 00:47:54,655
it gets this this idea of, like, burning

1398
00:47:54,655 --> 00:47:56,594
it down. Like, if we burn it down,

1399
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:57,380
well, that

1400
00:47:57,839 --> 00:47:59,859
sort of cuts both ways. Right? Like,

1401
00:48:01,039 --> 00:48:01,539
people

1402
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:03,920
that are likely to rebuild the system are

1403
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,839
gonna rebuild it in in an image that

1404
00:48:05,839 --> 00:48:07,440
you do not like. Like, not you. I've

1405
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:08,960
been No. I know what you mean. The

1406
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,904
Royalty. We the People. Right. And and so

1407
00:48:11,904 --> 00:48:13,585
that's what I mean when I say, like,

1408
00:48:13,585 --> 00:48:16,804
protecting democracy. It's protecting our capacity to continue

1409
00:48:16,864 --> 00:48:19,505
to make progress while acknowledging that these institutions,

1410
00:48:19,505 --> 00:48:21,025
they're not perfect by any stretch of the

1411
00:48:21,025 --> 00:48:22,644
imagination, but they do serve

1412
00:48:22,944 --> 00:48:25,444
a purpose of making sure that one

1413
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:29,610
particular person's ambitions cannot override the entire

1414
00:48:30,150 --> 00:48:32,469
will of of the people. That is the

1415
00:48:32,469 --> 00:48:34,230
position that we're in now, unfortunately, is is

1416
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:36,890
that we have a stark contrast between

1417
00:48:38,005 --> 00:48:38,505
the

1418
00:48:38,804 --> 00:48:40,025
two sides where

1419
00:48:41,684 --> 00:48:44,085
you have one side that fundamentally does not

1420
00:48:44,085 --> 00:48:47,764
believe in preserving that capacity. In fact, they

1421
00:48:47,764 --> 00:48:48,905
believe in completely

1422
00:48:49,204 --> 00:48:51,480
tearing it apart and ripping it up

1423
00:48:52,359 --> 00:48:53,420
and walling it

1424
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:55,559
off and creating a system where only a

1425
00:48:55,559 --> 00:48:58,199
few have an actual voice in the system.

1426
00:48:58,199 --> 00:49:00,039
And again, I'm not saying it's perfect right

1427
00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:00,539
now,

1428
00:49:01,159 --> 00:49:03,260
but it's way better than than

1429
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,300
what you would have in a system where

1430
00:49:06,714 --> 00:49:07,614
again, you're eliminating

1431
00:49:07,914 --> 00:49:09,534
people's right to vote

1432
00:49:09,914 --> 00:49:12,155
in this country. No. That's not good. I

1433
00:49:12,155 --> 00:49:14,954
know. I saw something on Facebook yesterday, a

1434
00:49:14,954 --> 00:49:15,454
person

1435
00:49:15,755 --> 00:49:17,295
in Tennessee that posted

1436
00:49:18,074 --> 00:49:20,815
about ballot box that went in their neighborhood

1437
00:49:21,250 --> 00:49:23,250
and, or maybe was it Tennessee? I think

1438
00:49:23,250 --> 00:49:25,730
it was Tennessee. But they were all up

1439
00:49:25,730 --> 00:49:27,090
in arms about it and all I could

1440
00:49:27,090 --> 00:49:29,250
think of is, why would you if you

1441
00:49:29,250 --> 00:49:31,890
were a patriot truly, as people like to

1442
00:49:31,890 --> 00:49:33,030
throw that word around,

1443
00:49:33,410 --> 00:49:35,829
why would you not want to ensure that

1444
00:49:35,890 --> 00:49:37,175
all citizens

1445
00:49:37,875 --> 00:49:38,775
in our democracy

1446
00:49:40,434 --> 00:49:43,255
make it easier for all citizens to vote?

1447
00:49:43,315 --> 00:49:44,855
Why would you not want that?

1448
00:49:45,555 --> 00:49:47,655
Now, I know why. It's because

1449
00:49:48,035 --> 00:49:48,535
historically

1450
00:49:49,170 --> 00:49:51,730
disenfranchised people tend to vote for a particular

1451
00:49:51,730 --> 00:49:52,789
party over another,

1452
00:49:53,170 --> 00:49:53,670
and

1453
00:49:53,969 --> 00:49:54,469
therefore,

1454
00:49:56,130 --> 00:49:57,650
that that they're not a voice that they

1455
00:49:57,650 --> 00:49:59,569
want to lift up. But I can't help

1456
00:49:59,569 --> 00:50:01,190
but keep going back to that

1457
00:50:01,565 --> 00:50:03,485
saying that until all of us are free,

1458
00:50:03,485 --> 00:50:05,644
none of us are free. And I don't

1459
00:50:05,644 --> 00:50:08,605
know why so many of us work toward

1460
00:50:08,605 --> 00:50:10,845
our own demise, and I can't see the

1461
00:50:10,845 --> 00:50:12,945
writing on the wall of what it means

1462
00:50:13,405 --> 00:50:14,065
to destroy

1463
00:50:14,684 --> 00:50:15,184
democracy.

1464
00:50:16,519 --> 00:50:17,179
It's it's

1465
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,559
it's like what you said about the guy

1466
00:50:19,559 --> 00:50:21,239
me talking about how if you don't have

1467
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:22,780
a Lamborghini by 25.

1468
00:50:23,639 --> 00:50:25,420
Democracy takes work.

1469
00:50:26,039 --> 00:50:29,034
Yeah. And most people don't even could don't

1470
00:50:29,034 --> 00:50:31,195
even know anything about civics. They don't know

1471
00:50:31,195 --> 00:50:33,195
who their representatives are for all the way

1472
00:50:33,195 --> 00:50:34,715
down to the city level, all the way

1473
00:50:34,715 --> 00:50:37,514
up the tree. And they don't really care.

1474
00:50:37,514 --> 00:50:40,554
They just like yelling about it. And don't

1475
00:50:40,554 --> 00:50:42,394
know how some of these people are actively

1476
00:50:42,394 --> 00:50:43,295
voting against

1477
00:50:44,109 --> 00:50:46,030
their best interest no matter which side of

1478
00:50:46,030 --> 00:50:47,730
the political spectrum you're on,

1479
00:50:48,109 --> 00:50:50,109
you know. And that's how do you

1480
00:50:51,630 --> 00:50:53,010
what do you do with that?

1481
00:50:54,030 --> 00:50:55,630
Yeah. I mean, it's it's really interesting. It's

1482
00:50:55,710 --> 00:50:57,389
it kind of like brings those the images

1483
00:50:57,389 --> 00:50:59,234
up of of, you know, some of these,

1484
00:50:59,394 --> 00:51:01,795
sort of, like, Republican members of congress that

1485
00:51:01,795 --> 00:51:03,394
would show up to the ribbon cuttings for,

1486
00:51:03,795 --> 00:51:06,034
the big infrastructure projects that were funded by

1487
00:51:06,034 --> 00:51:07,554
a law that they did not vote for.

1488
00:51:07,554 --> 00:51:09,155
They, like, voted against it. Right? And they

1489
00:51:09,155 --> 00:51:10,594
show up for the ribbon cutting going, oh,

1490
00:51:10,594 --> 00:51:12,355
look at this brand new bridge that we

1491
00:51:12,355 --> 00:51:15,019
are building that's gonna, you know, connect, you

1492
00:51:15,019 --> 00:51:16,460
know, 2 parts of the state or the

1493
00:51:16,460 --> 00:51:18,559
city and is gonna create the, you know,

1494
00:51:18,619 --> 00:51:21,280
x amount of of economic value and

1495
00:51:21,579 --> 00:51:23,179
improve the quality of life. Or we're gonna

1496
00:51:23,179 --> 00:51:25,579
be fixing the rails or or, again, you

1497
00:51:25,579 --> 00:51:27,260
know, lead pipes, all that stuff. Like, they'll

1498
00:51:27,260 --> 00:51:28,400
show up to these things

1499
00:51:29,074 --> 00:51:31,154
and continue to get voted in by the

1500
00:51:31,154 --> 00:51:32,934
people in those communities while simultaneously

1501
00:51:33,315 --> 00:51:35,815
the folks in those communities are very grateful

1502
00:51:36,914 --> 00:51:39,074
for the the new bridge, the new roads,

1503
00:51:39,074 --> 00:51:41,875
the the clean drinking water, the clean air,

1504
00:51:41,875 --> 00:51:44,360
the new manufacturing jobs. I just saw a

1505
00:51:44,360 --> 00:51:46,360
report. I I didn't I need to read

1506
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,440
it more thoroughly, so, I'm not gonna, you

1507
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,760
know, throw numbers around, but sort of America

1508
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,400
is, like, left behind counties. Right? The forgotten

1509
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,034
counties in America have done better in the

1510
00:51:56,034 --> 00:52:00,114
last 4 years. Jobs, economic improvement, wage growth

1511
00:52:00,114 --> 00:52:01,014
in these communities

1512
00:52:01,795 --> 00:52:03,394
has been better in the last 4 years

1513
00:52:03,394 --> 00:52:05,474
than they have been in the past several

1514
00:52:05,474 --> 00:52:05,974
decades.

1515
00:52:06,755 --> 00:52:08,755
And there is there is very real progress.

1516
00:52:08,755 --> 00:52:11,239
If you look at the the real wage

1517
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,079
growth and I understand people are hurting, people

1518
00:52:13,079 --> 00:52:14,539
are having a hard time with affordability,

1519
00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:16,139
but

1520
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:18,460
the the reality is

1521
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,719
wage growth among working class and middle class

1522
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:22,219
Americans

1523
00:52:23,164 --> 00:52:23,664
has

1524
00:52:24,125 --> 00:52:26,684
been greater under this presidency than it had

1525
00:52:26,684 --> 00:52:27,744
ever has before.

1526
00:52:28,364 --> 00:52:29,025
The ability,

1527
00:52:29,484 --> 00:52:31,425
and desire to unionize,

1528
00:52:32,684 --> 00:52:34,144
in the last 4 years

1529
00:52:34,445 --> 00:52:37,030
has been stronger than ever before. That means

1530
00:52:37,030 --> 00:52:39,670
people have a voice in their workplace. They

1531
00:52:39,670 --> 00:52:41,609
can get protection, basic protections,

1532
00:52:42,389 --> 00:52:44,089
and negotiate with their employers.

1533
00:52:44,789 --> 00:52:45,289
And,

1534
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:47,589
you know, you have an administration that's very

1535
00:52:47,589 --> 00:52:49,510
supportive of all of that. And yet, and

1536
00:52:49,510 --> 00:52:51,824
yet, if you ask people about all of

1537
00:52:51,824 --> 00:52:53,824
those things, right, the majority of Americans, they

1538
00:52:53,824 --> 00:52:55,985
like clean drinking water. They like the fact

1539
00:52:55,985 --> 00:52:58,625
that, drug companies cannot charge quite as much

1540
00:52:58,625 --> 00:53:00,385
for insulin. They like the fact that we

1541
00:53:00,385 --> 00:53:02,085
are trying to transition to,

1542
00:53:02,799 --> 00:53:04,400
clean energy. For the most part, there's a

1543
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,159
little bit of, you know, polarization in there

1544
00:53:06,159 --> 00:53:08,079
too. But, you know, there are jobs that

1545
00:53:08,079 --> 00:53:10,159
are associated with that as well. They like

1546
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:12,319
the fact that we are bringing manufacturing back

1547
00:53:12,319 --> 00:53:15,039
to the United States, high-tech manufacturing that's going

1548
00:53:15,039 --> 00:53:17,359
to provide jobs for people in in these

1549
00:53:17,359 --> 00:53:19,175
in these sort of left behind counties and

1550
00:53:19,175 --> 00:53:21,114
in other areas of the country as well.

1551
00:53:21,414 --> 00:53:23,835
The problem is once you attach a partisan

1552
00:53:23,894 --> 00:53:26,855
label to it, they don't want anything to

1553
00:53:26,855 --> 00:53:28,375
do with it. They don't care. It doesn't

1554
00:53:28,375 --> 00:53:30,775
matter who did it. It's it's it's sort

1555
00:53:30,775 --> 00:53:32,795
of that weird cognitive dissonance.

1556
00:53:33,094 --> 00:53:33,594
And

1557
00:53:34,130 --> 00:53:35,890
and again, it kinda goes back, I think,

1558
00:53:35,890 --> 00:53:37,110
to some of the externalization

1559
00:53:37,410 --> 00:53:38,789
of of of personal,

1560
00:53:41,010 --> 00:53:41,650
you know,

1561
00:53:42,050 --> 00:53:42,550
frustration

1562
00:53:42,929 --> 00:53:43,429
with

1563
00:53:43,730 --> 00:53:46,610
with circumstances, and people do have challenges. Right?

1564
00:53:46,610 --> 00:53:47,730
And I and I think it would be

1565
00:53:47,730 --> 00:53:49,329
tone deaf to say, like, well, look at

1566
00:53:49,329 --> 00:53:50,775
all these things that are happening. You should

1567
00:53:50,775 --> 00:53:51,355
be happy.

1568
00:53:52,135 --> 00:53:54,234
That's not what anyone's saying. Right? It's saying,

1569
00:53:54,295 --> 00:53:56,694
we are working together to make progress on

1570
00:53:56,694 --> 00:53:58,375
these things. And the thing that enabled that

1571
00:53:58,375 --> 00:54:00,534
was because people showed up and voted in

1572
00:54:00,534 --> 00:54:01,034
2020,

1573
00:54:01,815 --> 00:54:04,234
and they then they voted again in 2022.

1574
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,480
You know, we have a Democratic senate, and

1575
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,239
again, you're getting a a view of sort

1576
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:09,840
of political leanings, but we have a Democratic

1577
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,660
senate and a very closely divided house, Democratic

1578
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,440
president. Stuff is still getting done. It's still

1579
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,300
being done because of those votes.

1580
00:54:17,599 --> 00:54:19,315
We're we're able to accomplish those things. Now

1581
00:54:19,315 --> 00:54:20,434
imagine a world where you don't get a

1582
00:54:20,434 --> 00:54:22,994
vote. Right? Or where your vote you can

1583
00:54:22,994 --> 00:54:23,494
vote,

1584
00:54:23,795 --> 00:54:25,875
but then simply they just go, I don't

1585
00:54:25,875 --> 00:54:27,555
like that vote, so we're gonna toss that

1586
00:54:27,555 --> 00:54:29,555
one out and count another one. Or we're

1587
00:54:29,555 --> 00:54:32,010
gonna find, I don't know, 12,000 votes in

1588
00:54:32,010 --> 00:54:34,829
in Atlanta somewhere, in Georgia somewhere. Right? Like,

1589
00:54:35,369 --> 00:54:37,469
how does that make any sense? It's Yeah.

1590
00:54:37,690 --> 00:54:39,230
So it's it's a tough problem,

1591
00:54:39,690 --> 00:54:41,050
and and I think a lot of smart

1592
00:54:41,050 --> 00:54:43,130
people are really trying to figure out what

1593
00:54:43,130 --> 00:54:44,030
what the answer

1594
00:54:44,474 --> 00:54:45,855
to to that is,

1595
00:54:46,795 --> 00:54:48,315
because I think a lot of the conversations

1596
00:54:48,315 --> 00:54:49,675
that we need to have do not lend

1597
00:54:49,675 --> 00:54:50,815
themselves to

1598
00:54:51,434 --> 00:54:53,515
mass media. So as a practitioner of of

1599
00:54:53,515 --> 00:54:54,715
politics, right, like the

1600
00:54:55,275 --> 00:54:57,454
these campaigns, they they take place on on

1601
00:54:58,340 --> 00:55:00,500
a short timeline, like, comparatively speaking. Now I

1602
00:55:00,500 --> 00:55:02,900
know this presidential cycle feels like it's longer

1603
00:55:02,900 --> 00:55:04,659
than others, because it is. It's it's gonna

1604
00:55:04,659 --> 00:55:06,599
be the longest general election cycle

1605
00:55:06,900 --> 00:55:08,119
I think we've ever had.

1606
00:55:08,659 --> 00:55:11,000
But still, that's not a super long time.

1607
00:55:11,195 --> 00:55:13,514
There were several years preceding that where it

1608
00:55:13,514 --> 00:55:15,695
was just the work of governing. And

1609
00:55:16,635 --> 00:55:18,554
the work of governing doesn't really get a

1610
00:55:18,554 --> 00:55:20,235
whole lot of clicks. It doesn't really get,

1611
00:55:20,394 --> 00:55:22,655
I mean, our media landscape is totally fractured.

1612
00:55:23,650 --> 00:55:25,650
So, you know, local papers are not what

1613
00:55:25,650 --> 00:55:27,170
they used to be. In fact, a lot

1614
00:55:27,170 --> 00:55:29,489
of communities are what they call news deserts.

1615
00:55:29,489 --> 00:55:31,409
Right? They just don't have access to local

1616
00:55:31,409 --> 00:55:33,250
news of any kind. Yeah. And some of

1617
00:55:33,250 --> 00:55:36,150
the major newspapers have now been compromised, unfortunately.

1618
00:55:36,610 --> 00:55:37,829
So You're

1619
00:55:38,155 --> 00:55:38,655
gutted,

1620
00:55:39,035 --> 00:55:40,974
sold off for parts. You know they have

1621
00:55:41,275 --> 00:55:43,595
what used to be very robust, like state

1622
00:55:43,595 --> 00:55:45,434
house bureaus in some of these places. They

1623
00:55:45,434 --> 00:55:48,155
have maybe one one reporter. They borrow the

1624
00:55:48,155 --> 00:55:50,474
AP's stuff which I mean it's better than

1625
00:55:50,474 --> 00:55:53,059
nothing but you're not really you know, penetrating.

1626
00:55:53,059 --> 00:55:54,420
So then by the time you get to

1627
00:55:54,420 --> 00:55:55,320
to a campaign,

1628
00:55:55,860 --> 00:55:56,820
it's like you gotta figure out how to

1629
00:55:56,820 --> 00:55:58,039
get the word out quickly

1630
00:55:58,820 --> 00:56:00,579
and in a broad way. So it's like

1631
00:56:00,579 --> 00:56:02,340
you have TV ads, you have direct mail,

1632
00:56:02,340 --> 00:56:04,019
you do all the digital, you do videos,

1633
00:56:04,019 --> 00:56:05,699
you do all these things. But, like, it

1634
00:56:05,780 --> 00:56:07,875
I think it requires a much more nuanced

1635
00:56:08,114 --> 00:56:09,735
conversation with people because

1636
00:56:10,195 --> 00:56:11,175
the the inclination,

1637
00:56:12,355 --> 00:56:13,474
you know, if you go up to someone

1638
00:56:13,474 --> 00:56:15,635
who identifies as a Republican, you say, well,

1639
00:56:15,635 --> 00:56:16,454
I'm a Democrat.

1640
00:56:16,835 --> 00:56:18,914
The immediate the wall goes up immediately. You're

1641
00:56:18,914 --> 00:56:20,275
not with me. I don't know. You you

1642
00:56:20,275 --> 00:56:22,114
believe stuff that I don't believe an enemy.

1643
00:56:22,114 --> 00:56:24,050
Right? You were you were the wrong type

1644
00:56:24,050 --> 00:56:24,630
of person.

1645
00:56:25,250 --> 00:56:27,010
You were ruining this country, all all that

1646
00:56:27,010 --> 00:56:28,369
stuff. And I I don't I don't think

1647
00:56:28,369 --> 00:56:29,650
that's the case. And, again, we could go

1648
00:56:29,650 --> 00:56:30,769
back to, I think, at some point, like,

1649
00:56:30,769 --> 00:56:32,849
to your point about pendulum swinging back. Like,

1650
00:56:32,849 --> 00:56:34,050
I think we could get back to a

1651
00:56:34,050 --> 00:56:36,309
place where we have a robust, hearty,

1652
00:56:37,164 --> 00:56:39,964
two party system where we have legitimate debates

1653
00:56:39,964 --> 00:56:42,784
about policy and how to implement that policy

1654
00:56:42,844 --> 00:56:45,324
and how best to serve the country without

1655
00:56:45,324 --> 00:56:47,804
having to worry about whether or not our

1656
00:56:47,804 --> 00:56:48,304
entire

1657
00:56:49,210 --> 00:56:51,130
ability again to have a voice in these

1658
00:56:51,130 --> 00:56:51,630
conversations

1659
00:56:52,890 --> 00:56:55,210
will will will disintegrate. Right? Wouldn't it be

1660
00:56:55,210 --> 00:56:56,969
great if we could just do that? But

1661
00:56:56,969 --> 00:56:58,829
right now we have one party that's interested

1662
00:56:58,890 --> 00:57:01,369
in the policy and the debate and I

1663
00:57:01,369 --> 00:57:04,184
would argue, like, the Democratic Party covers a

1664
00:57:04,184 --> 00:57:05,405
very broad spectrum

1665
00:57:05,785 --> 00:57:07,724
of policy beliefs at this point,

1666
00:57:08,265 --> 00:57:10,985
where there is robust debate going on within

1667
00:57:10,985 --> 00:57:13,864
the Democratic Party itself. The Republicans, though, by

1668
00:57:13,864 --> 00:57:15,224
and large, not every one of them. There's

1669
00:57:15,224 --> 00:57:17,519
some like Liz Cheney. Again, I've never thought,

1670
00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:18,880
like, if if you talk to young people,

1671
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:21,619
you know, like, Liz a Cheney. Right? But

1672
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,160
you know what? She put country before before

1673
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:26,579
her political career and spoke out. Adam Kinzinger

1674
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,440
is another one. Right? Put his his, country

1675
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:29,940
before,

1676
00:57:30,714 --> 00:57:32,795
his own political career. So you do see

1677
00:57:32,795 --> 00:57:34,734
some ex Mitt Romney, for example,

1678
00:57:35,034 --> 00:57:37,295
same thing, you know, spoke out and said,

1679
00:57:37,755 --> 00:57:39,675
you know what? This is not good, but

1680
00:57:39,675 --> 00:57:42,474
that is vanishingly small. There's a small number

1681
00:57:42,474 --> 00:57:43,980
of people that are willing to do that.

1682
00:57:44,059 --> 00:57:45,820
And so what we have is a party

1683
00:57:45,820 --> 00:57:47,500
apparatus. When I say the Republican party, I'm

1684
00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:50,239
not talking about Republican voters because they

1685
00:57:50,780 --> 00:57:53,099
are consuming the stuff that that is coming

1686
00:57:53,099 --> 00:57:55,179
to them from from the leaders. But the

1687
00:57:55,179 --> 00:57:57,519
leaders should know better. Right? The leaders should

1688
00:57:57,815 --> 00:57:58,715
make that commitment.

1689
00:57:59,015 --> 00:58:01,095
I think they do know better. That's the

1690
00:58:01,095 --> 00:58:03,974
rub. Some do. Some, I don't think, actually.

1691
00:58:03,974 --> 00:58:05,815
Like, now we're getting, like, a system where

1692
00:58:05,815 --> 00:58:06,875
you'd actually have

1693
00:58:07,255 --> 00:58:09,414
people getting into especially some of these house

1694
00:58:09,414 --> 00:58:11,815
seats that do actually, I don't think know

1695
00:58:11,815 --> 00:58:13,275
better. That's terrifying.

1696
00:58:13,789 --> 00:58:15,789
Yeah. Really scary stuff. So, like, you have

1697
00:58:15,789 --> 00:58:18,030
the cynics, like, the I'm gonna keep my

1698
00:58:18,030 --> 00:58:19,630
seat. I'm gonna, like, you know, lure charge

1699
00:58:19,630 --> 00:58:21,329
to the right and and do the whole,

1700
00:58:21,550 --> 00:58:23,869
you know, Trump worship thing, you know, for

1701
00:58:23,869 --> 00:58:25,710
my political career, and it's all very calculated.

1702
00:58:25,710 --> 00:58:26,909
And then you have some that are just

1703
00:58:26,909 --> 00:58:29,675
simply like, I I think they believe it,

1704
00:58:29,815 --> 00:58:31,494
genuinely. Or they see it as a vehicle

1705
00:58:31,494 --> 00:58:34,215
for for getting done whatever, like, super unpopular

1706
00:58:34,454 --> 00:58:35,735
the thing is they don't like their own

1707
00:58:35,735 --> 00:58:37,094
agenda too. Like, if you read through the

1708
00:58:37,094 --> 00:58:39,894
project 2025 stuff, everyone's running away from that

1709
00:58:39,894 --> 00:58:41,735
because they know it's super unpopular. But guess

1710
00:58:41,735 --> 00:58:43,599
what? That's what they wanna do. That is

1711
00:58:43,599 --> 00:58:45,280
what they wanna do. I don't know. It's

1712
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,280
it's it's a tough thing. I mean, because

1713
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:48,400
they know I mean, I think they do

1714
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,000
know that it's unpopular. Right? So that's why

1715
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,599
they're trying not to talk about that. They're

1716
00:58:51,599 --> 00:58:53,679
trying to, you know Right. They were hoping

1717
00:58:53,679 --> 00:58:55,139
that would stay under the radar.

1718
00:58:56,175 --> 00:58:59,055
And I think true to your point, it's

1719
00:58:59,055 --> 00:59:00,434
not about Republicans.

1720
00:59:00,735 --> 00:59:03,635
It's about people who are in that political

1721
00:59:03,775 --> 00:59:04,994
power Right.

1722
00:59:06,094 --> 00:59:08,035
Who I don't think are actually Republicans.

1723
00:59:08,494 --> 00:59:10,894
I've I find it very I very hard

1724
00:59:10,894 --> 00:59:12,409
to to tag those

1725
00:59:12,949 --> 00:59:15,109
that name because it means something different to

1726
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:17,449
me, I suppose, over the years. I'm older.

1727
00:59:17,829 --> 00:59:20,389
You know, what it means to me versus

1728
00:59:20,389 --> 00:59:23,050
what it is is 2 totally different things.

1729
00:59:23,190 --> 00:59:24,710
It really it really is. Like, I mean,

1730
00:59:24,710 --> 00:59:26,765
I I, like, know a lot of people

1731
00:59:26,765 --> 00:59:29,405
who were Republicans. Right? Like, who true like,

1732
00:59:29,405 --> 00:59:31,664
voters, like, truly believed in

1733
00:59:32,365 --> 00:59:33,265
in the Republican

1734
00:59:33,805 --> 00:59:37,085
party, believed in certain elements of of the

1735
00:59:37,085 --> 00:59:39,005
platform when there still was, like, an actual

1736
00:59:39,005 --> 00:59:40,785
platform that people could get behind.

1737
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:42,489
But since 2016,

1738
00:59:42,789 --> 00:59:43,289
have

1739
00:59:44,230 --> 00:59:45,909
taken a look at the party that they

1740
00:59:45,909 --> 00:59:47,670
once felt like they belong to and just

1741
00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:48,170
said,

1742
00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:50,309
what? I don't know what this is anymore.

1743
00:59:50,309 --> 00:59:51,829
Like, this is not a thing. I'm gonna

1744
00:59:51,829 --> 00:59:53,829
I'm gonna have to vote Democratic. Or some

1745
00:59:53,829 --> 00:59:54,809
of them enthusiastically

1746
00:59:55,269 --> 00:59:57,505
will say, like, I am gonna vote Democrat.

1747
00:59:57,605 --> 01:00:00,605
And interestingly enough too, like, some Republicans that

1748
01:00:00,605 --> 01:00:01,425
you talk to,

1749
01:00:01,724 --> 01:00:04,125
former Republicans that you talk to, are more

1750
01:00:04,125 --> 01:00:05,664
enthusiastic about voting

1751
01:00:06,125 --> 01:00:08,684
this year than the avowed Democrats and sir,

1752
01:00:08,684 --> 01:00:10,525
or independent voter. Like, you would expect the

1753
01:00:10,525 --> 01:00:11,965
opposite to be true, but they like, some

1754
01:00:11,965 --> 01:00:13,900
of those people are most vociferously,

1755
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:15,739
opposed to

1756
01:00:16,599 --> 01:00:17,099
this,

1757
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,360
sort of attempted dismantling of the system. The,

1758
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,599
you know, the American system, the American experiment.

1759
01:00:22,599 --> 01:00:24,680
Like, they are the ones that are most

1760
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:26,280
offended by this, and I think maybe there's

1761
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:28,025
a sense betrayal there too. It's like I

1762
01:00:28,025 --> 01:00:29,465
gave them you know, I've I've spent my

1763
01:00:29,465 --> 01:00:29,965
life

1764
01:00:30,265 --> 01:00:32,045
maybe even donating to this party,

1765
01:00:32,345 --> 01:00:34,585
knocking doors for this party. I'm talking to

1766
01:00:34,585 --> 01:00:37,385
my neighbors about various candidates who ran as

1767
01:00:37,385 --> 01:00:39,869
Republicans at one point, and I feel betrayed

1768
01:00:39,869 --> 01:00:42,349
by this because this is fundamentally un American,

1769
01:00:42,349 --> 01:00:43,710
what's going on right now. So, like, you

1770
01:00:43,710 --> 01:00:45,569
do actually hear that, which is really interesting,

1771
01:00:46,269 --> 01:00:47,630
and and they wouldn't recognize. I mean, a

1772
01:00:47,630 --> 01:00:49,389
lot of these people don't recognize it as

1773
01:00:49,389 --> 01:00:51,150
what you would what you would consider, you

1774
01:00:51,150 --> 01:00:52,929
are or I would consider, like, a Republican

1775
01:00:52,989 --> 01:00:53,549
party of

1776
01:00:54,244 --> 01:00:57,445
like, John McCain or Sure. Remember that clip

1777
01:00:57,445 --> 01:00:59,605
of him, at at the town hall? And,

1778
01:00:59,765 --> 01:01:01,684
that woman was like, oh, Obama's not American.

1779
01:01:01,684 --> 01:01:02,425
He was like,

1780
01:01:02,724 --> 01:01:04,405
yes, ma'am. And he loves he loves this

1781
01:01:04,405 --> 01:01:06,809
country, and we just disagree on stuff. I

1782
01:01:06,890 --> 01:01:08,650
totally misquoted it, but that's sort of No.

1783
01:01:08,650 --> 01:01:10,170
I just watched that the other day. In

1784
01:01:10,170 --> 01:01:12,989
fact, yeah, a woman said, oh, Obama is,

1785
01:01:13,289 --> 01:01:15,630
not even born here, and he's not American,

1786
01:01:15,690 --> 01:01:16,349
and he

1787
01:01:16,650 --> 01:01:18,969
he's a terror you know, basically, she was

1788
01:01:18,969 --> 01:01:19,949
saying the bigoted

1789
01:01:20,250 --> 01:01:23,914
stuff. And McCain said, ma'am, that's not true.

1790
01:01:24,135 --> 01:01:26,295
I you know, we don't agree on some

1791
01:01:26,295 --> 01:01:29,414
policies and and it's politics, but he's a

1792
01:01:29,414 --> 01:01:31,655
good person, and his family is a good

1793
01:01:31,655 --> 01:01:32,155
family.

1794
01:01:33,574 --> 01:01:37,010
Yeah. I what happened to that? I feel

1795
01:01:37,010 --> 01:01:38,949
like it's just all being run by bullies

1796
01:01:39,010 --> 01:01:40,309
now. It's just

1797
01:01:41,489 --> 01:01:42,469
that bully energy,

1798
01:01:43,969 --> 01:01:46,130
don't like it at all. I mean, I

1799
01:01:46,130 --> 01:01:48,449
I understand it. I know. It's hard it's

1800
01:01:48,449 --> 01:01:50,050
hard to swallow those, isn't it? It's hard

1801
01:01:50,050 --> 01:01:52,355
to wrap my head around even though I'm

1802
01:01:52,355 --> 01:01:54,375
watching it play out in real time.

1803
01:01:54,914 --> 01:01:55,414
And,

1804
01:01:56,675 --> 01:01:58,675
I mean, I've had people who I've known

1805
01:01:58,675 --> 01:02:00,694
for a very long time,

1806
01:02:01,795 --> 01:02:02,295
who

1807
01:02:03,155 --> 01:02:03,655
completely

1808
01:02:05,030 --> 01:02:06,309
I mean, I hate to say drank the

1809
01:02:06,309 --> 01:02:08,170
Kool Aid, but that's kinda what it is.

1810
01:02:08,550 --> 01:02:09,050
And

1811
01:02:10,550 --> 01:02:12,409
the things that they had said to me,

1812
01:02:13,829 --> 01:02:16,869
it's about my beliefs or my wanting to

1813
01:02:16,869 --> 01:02:20,184
lift up people who are historically unheard or

1814
01:02:20,184 --> 01:02:20,684
disenfranchised.

1815
01:02:22,425 --> 01:02:23,804
And I think, wow,

1816
01:02:24,105 --> 01:02:25,644
if we can disagree politically,

1817
01:02:26,425 --> 01:02:28,744
that's okay. But now you're calling me names

1818
01:02:28,744 --> 01:02:30,824
and saying all the it's so bizarre. And

1819
01:02:30,824 --> 01:02:31,885
that was, of course,

1820
01:02:32,184 --> 01:02:34,109
4 years ago. It's fascinating.

1821
01:02:34,650 --> 01:02:36,809
It's so fascinating. And I wonder, so you

1822
01:02:36,809 --> 01:02:39,449
teach kids or, I guess, college kids. Yes.

1823
01:02:39,449 --> 01:02:41,849
You're an instructor at the an adjunct Yeah.

1824
01:02:41,849 --> 01:02:43,690
For, several semester days. I took a couple

1825
01:02:43,690 --> 01:02:45,609
semesters off things. Things are getting busy now.

1826
01:02:45,609 --> 01:02:48,429
But I am curious what the young people

1827
01:02:49,204 --> 01:02:51,545
think about it all. And if you're noticing

1828
01:02:51,684 --> 01:02:53,605
whether or not they are starting to turn

1829
01:02:53,605 --> 01:02:55,945
their back a little bit on social media

1830
01:02:56,244 --> 01:02:57,704
and what it all means.

1831
01:02:58,885 --> 01:03:00,405
So I can I can kind of answer

1832
01:03:00,405 --> 01:03:03,204
this from from 2 different perspectives? So, both

1833
01:03:03,204 --> 01:03:06,430
both, you know, just anecdotal having having taught

1834
01:03:06,430 --> 01:03:07,250
social media

1835
01:03:08,150 --> 01:03:08,650
courses

1836
01:03:09,550 --> 01:03:10,050
and

1837
01:03:10,349 --> 01:03:11,170
and then also

1838
01:03:12,030 --> 01:03:12,530
having,

1839
01:03:12,910 --> 01:03:14,989
you know, done done polling and research in

1840
01:03:14,989 --> 01:03:16,750
the area of like what young voters are

1841
01:03:16,750 --> 01:03:18,989
paying attention to, what sort of things actually

1842
01:03:18,989 --> 01:03:20,804
not just young voters, but young people in

1843
01:03:20,804 --> 01:03:23,065
general are are paying attention to online.

1844
01:03:23,445 --> 01:03:25,464
You know, how they feel about social media.

1845
01:03:25,525 --> 01:03:26,025
And,

1846
01:03:26,565 --> 01:03:28,244
it's it's sort of interesting because you do

1847
01:03:28,244 --> 01:03:30,025
see a little bit of, like, a love

1848
01:03:30,565 --> 01:03:31,464
hate relationship

1849
01:03:32,324 --> 01:03:34,804
with social media where it's like I'm like,

1850
01:03:34,804 --> 01:03:35,864
there I think

1851
01:03:36,449 --> 01:03:38,929
some have this intuitive sense of, like, this

1852
01:03:38,929 --> 01:03:39,750
isn't great,

1853
01:03:40,609 --> 01:03:42,289
but I also like it too. Like, I

1854
01:03:42,289 --> 01:03:42,789
like

1855
01:03:43,329 --> 01:03:45,750
some of it's it because it does trigger,

1856
01:03:45,809 --> 01:03:46,630
like, an actual,

1857
01:03:47,250 --> 01:03:49,409
like, chemical reaction in your brain when you're

1858
01:03:49,409 --> 01:03:50,644
when when you're doing these. I mean, that's

1859
01:03:50,644 --> 01:03:52,484
why it all works. Right? Otherwise, like, it

1860
01:03:52,484 --> 01:03:54,565
wouldn't it wouldn't work. That's why people, you

1861
01:03:54,565 --> 01:03:57,045
know, get hooked on on different different things,

1862
01:03:57,045 --> 01:03:58,885
you know. It's it's it's sort of this,

1863
01:03:59,125 --> 01:04:00,425
sort of, neurological

1864
01:04:00,804 --> 01:04:02,264
process that happens. So,

1865
01:04:02,660 --> 01:04:04,579
so I think, like, in in some ways,

1866
01:04:04,579 --> 01:04:06,099
it's it's a little bit of love hate.

1867
01:04:06,099 --> 01:04:07,780
Like, if you really start digging into it,

1868
01:04:07,780 --> 01:04:10,420
and and I think there's an initial, just

1869
01:04:10,420 --> 01:04:13,320
anecdotally, hesitancy in that environment to

1870
01:04:14,099 --> 01:04:15,640
really talk about

1871
01:04:15,940 --> 01:04:16,440
how

1872
01:04:17,414 --> 01:04:18,795
social media impacts

1873
01:04:19,574 --> 01:04:21,974
you on a personal level. Right? Like, the

1874
01:04:21,974 --> 01:04:23,574
student on the personal. Like, you try to

1875
01:04:23,655 --> 01:04:24,934
I tried to get into that because, like,

1876
01:04:24,934 --> 01:04:26,215
what the what I was teaching was, like,

1877
01:04:26,215 --> 01:04:27,275
social media strategy,

1878
01:04:28,135 --> 01:04:30,329
and, like, in a business context really is

1879
01:04:30,329 --> 01:04:31,530
is, you know, how do you use social

1880
01:04:31,530 --> 01:04:33,710
media to communicate with customers, to brand,

1881
01:04:34,170 --> 01:04:34,670
your

1882
01:04:35,369 --> 01:04:37,210
business, all of those different things. But, you

1883
01:04:37,210 --> 01:04:39,210
know, I made sure that I really wanted

1884
01:04:39,210 --> 01:04:39,950
to cover

1885
01:04:40,329 --> 01:04:41,710
a sort of the ethics

1886
01:04:42,105 --> 01:04:44,184
of social media as as well and the

1887
01:04:44,184 --> 01:04:45,545
ethics of of using it.

1888
01:04:45,945 --> 01:04:47,864
And and just so, like, you know, they

1889
01:04:47,864 --> 01:04:49,385
had a context walking out of there. Like,

1890
01:04:49,385 --> 01:04:50,585
here are all the tips and tricks to,

1891
01:04:50,585 --> 01:04:52,364
like, get people's attention and to,

1892
01:04:52,905 --> 01:04:54,824
sell products and to brand and to do

1893
01:04:54,824 --> 01:04:56,445
do what you're gonna do successfully.

1894
01:04:57,170 --> 01:04:59,430
It's all boobs. Yeah.

1895
01:04:59,890 --> 01:05:01,890
That's right. That's right. But, like, also to

1896
01:05:01,890 --> 01:05:04,210
have, like, an ethical perspective and to consider

1897
01:05:04,210 --> 01:05:06,690
that before you go down certain paths, like,

1898
01:05:06,690 --> 01:05:09,430
to not essentially prey on people's, like, insecurities

1899
01:05:09,809 --> 01:05:11,030
or prey on people's,

1900
01:05:11,650 --> 01:05:13,964
you know, fears or or whatever.

1901
01:05:14,425 --> 01:05:16,264
So I think there's, like, a little bit

1902
01:05:16,264 --> 01:05:19,085
of a hesitancy to talk about it sometimes.

1903
01:05:19,144 --> 01:05:21,144
Like and then when you start, like, digging

1904
01:05:21,144 --> 01:05:22,764
or pushing on it, it's like,

1905
01:05:23,065 --> 01:05:24,045
yeah. You know,

1906
01:05:24,824 --> 01:05:25,565
I actually

1907
01:05:25,944 --> 01:05:26,844
do feel

1908
01:05:27,410 --> 01:05:29,430
a sense of anxiety when I consume

1909
01:05:29,809 --> 01:05:32,130
certain types of content or social media, or

1910
01:05:32,130 --> 01:05:33,030
I do feel

1911
01:05:33,969 --> 01:05:35,430
a certain sense of inadequacy

1912
01:05:36,450 --> 01:05:39,489
when I consume social media. And sometimes I

1913
01:05:39,489 --> 01:05:39,989
feel

1914
01:05:40,610 --> 01:05:42,950
like I do know that what I'm seeing

1915
01:05:43,864 --> 01:05:45,405
isn't necessarily real,

1916
01:05:46,505 --> 01:05:48,905
but it's hard in that moment to, like,

1917
01:05:48,905 --> 01:05:51,385
put put that aside, like to to center

1918
01:05:51,385 --> 01:05:53,464
yourself in that thought versus what you're seeing

1919
01:05:53,464 --> 01:05:55,484
on the screen. Like, I think it's interesting,

1920
01:05:55,789 --> 01:05:57,789
you know, when when you talk to talk

1921
01:05:57,789 --> 01:05:59,710
to students like that and really kind of

1922
01:05:59,710 --> 01:06:01,230
dig and push, but you have to push.

1923
01:06:01,230 --> 01:06:03,309
You have to dig to get there because

1924
01:06:03,309 --> 01:06:05,150
it's not something that comes to top of

1925
01:06:05,150 --> 01:06:06,670
mind. Like, it's like, okay, take a minute

1926
01:06:06,670 --> 01:06:07,969
and actually really reflect

1927
01:06:08,375 --> 01:06:10,554
on how this is making making you feel

1928
01:06:10,855 --> 01:06:12,474
and how you engage with

1929
01:06:12,775 --> 01:06:15,255
with this content that you're engaging with. And

1930
01:06:15,255 --> 01:06:17,335
once you start to, like, kinda scrape away

1931
01:06:17,335 --> 01:06:18,074
at the layers,

1932
01:06:18,694 --> 01:06:20,375
it's like they start to admit

1933
01:06:21,014 --> 01:06:22,694
I mean, I think we all know. Like,

1934
01:06:22,694 --> 01:06:23,755
I know that

1935
01:06:24,269 --> 01:06:26,190
I probably spend more time on my phone

1936
01:06:26,190 --> 01:06:26,929
than I should.

1937
01:06:28,110 --> 01:06:30,030
Is that stopping me from spending time on

1938
01:06:30,030 --> 01:06:31,390
my phone? I mean, not all the time.

1939
01:06:31,390 --> 01:06:32,670
Like, I really do try to take a

1940
01:06:32,670 --> 01:06:34,429
step back because it's it it does get

1941
01:06:34,429 --> 01:06:36,429
a little, you know, overwhelming sometimes, right, when

1942
01:06:36,429 --> 01:06:38,765
you're just bombarded with stuff. But, I mean,

1943
01:06:38,765 --> 01:06:40,925
it's it's interesting. So you see this actually

1944
01:06:40,925 --> 01:06:43,025
in in different ways too. So,

1945
01:06:43,405 --> 01:06:45,565
like, if you ask people about, like, their

1946
01:06:45,565 --> 01:06:46,465
trust in

1947
01:06:46,844 --> 01:06:49,724
different social media platforms in in managing their

1948
01:06:49,724 --> 01:06:52,940
data or privacy or any other sort of,

1949
01:06:53,300 --> 01:06:55,480
or their mental health, for example.

1950
01:06:56,500 --> 01:06:57,480
There's a discrepancy

1951
01:06:57,780 --> 01:07:00,420
between what they say, which is it's fairly

1952
01:07:00,420 --> 01:07:02,660
low trust. Like, they don't actually trust these

1953
01:07:02,660 --> 01:07:05,400
platforms very much, but they still use them.

1954
01:07:05,445 --> 01:07:07,385
Right? So it's not enough to

1955
01:07:07,925 --> 01:07:10,085
to push people off. Like, the the the

1956
01:07:10,085 --> 01:07:12,565
behavior does not the the view does not

1957
01:07:12,565 --> 01:07:13,704
translate to behavior,

1958
01:07:14,164 --> 01:07:15,605
when when it comes to social media. So

1959
01:07:15,605 --> 01:07:16,965
that's a really interesting thing that you see

1960
01:07:16,965 --> 01:07:18,644
in, like, a lot of public opinion research

1961
01:07:18,644 --> 01:07:19,925
and polls that we've done. You see a

1962
01:07:19,925 --> 01:07:21,340
huge discrepancy between

1963
01:07:22,119 --> 01:07:23,880
between those two things. Like, will, you know,

1964
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:25,159
will do you still use it? It's like,

1965
01:07:25,159 --> 01:07:26,599
well, yeah. Like, I I don't trust it,

1966
01:07:26,599 --> 01:07:27,880
but I use it. Like, I mean, I

1967
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:29,559
know that they're probably doing something with my

1968
01:07:29,559 --> 01:07:32,199
data that, like, I wouldn't necessarily like. Like,

1969
01:07:32,199 --> 01:07:34,119
if you lay out that's another interesting thing

1970
01:07:34,119 --> 01:07:35,340
too is, like, you walk,

1971
01:07:35,925 --> 01:07:38,485
the students through how how data is being

1972
01:07:38,485 --> 01:07:40,485
used or how ads are being targeted. Like,

1973
01:07:40,485 --> 01:07:42,644
before you get into a college class about

1974
01:07:42,644 --> 01:07:44,324
that, you just you see the ads. Right?

1975
01:07:44,324 --> 01:07:46,085
Like, unless you're, like, digging into it yourself,

1976
01:07:46,085 --> 01:07:47,445
that's all you're seeing. You're seeing the ads,

1977
01:07:47,445 --> 01:07:49,369
and they're kind of creepily

1978
01:07:49,829 --> 01:07:52,250
relevant for you know, it's like, oh, well.

1979
01:07:52,630 --> 01:07:54,630
I've thought things and not said them out

1980
01:07:54,630 --> 01:07:56,549
loud and then seen an ad for it

1981
01:07:56,549 --> 01:07:58,309
because I know I know how it works.

1982
01:07:58,309 --> 01:08:00,309
I know that whatever I that led me

1983
01:08:00,309 --> 01:08:01,449
to have that thought

1984
01:08:01,944 --> 01:08:04,364
has been tracked. And so it anticipates

1985
01:08:04,664 --> 01:08:05,885
even before I

1986
01:08:06,905 --> 01:08:09,065
that I'm gonna want to see that or

1987
01:08:09,065 --> 01:08:10,844
that I've been thinking about it.

1988
01:08:12,505 --> 01:08:13,005
Terrifying.

1989
01:08:13,464 --> 01:08:15,144
Yeah. So I mean, it's like they you

1990
01:08:15,144 --> 01:08:17,064
know, so until you actually, like, dig into,

1991
01:08:17,064 --> 01:08:19,390
like, how does this all work, it's you

1992
01:08:19,390 --> 01:08:20,590
know, you just don't have a frame of

1993
01:08:20,590 --> 01:08:21,970
reference for it. So then,

1994
01:08:22,430 --> 01:08:24,430
you know, then they start thinking in that

1995
01:08:24,430 --> 01:08:26,670
frame, and it's like, oh, no. That's I

1996
01:08:26,670 --> 01:08:28,270
don't love that. Like, I don't love the

1997
01:08:28,270 --> 01:08:29,869
fact that my data is used this way

1998
01:08:29,869 --> 01:08:31,604
or that there is, like, you know, for

1999
01:08:31,604 --> 01:08:33,284
all intents and purposes, sort of like a

2000
01:08:33,284 --> 01:08:36,164
facsimile of a person like me that they

2001
01:08:36,164 --> 01:08:38,244
create in order to target these things and

2002
01:08:38,244 --> 01:08:40,024
figure out who responds to what

2003
01:08:40,404 --> 01:08:41,925
and all of that. And it's that's all

2004
01:08:41,925 --> 01:08:44,085
part of the business, obviously. And, like, again,

2005
01:08:44,085 --> 01:08:46,449
like, I'm a practitioner of of, you know,

2006
01:08:46,449 --> 01:08:49,090
communication. Social media is an important place to

2007
01:08:49,090 --> 01:08:50,849
to communicate, and you have to play by

2008
01:08:50,849 --> 01:08:52,609
the rules or in the in the environment

2009
01:08:52,609 --> 01:08:54,689
that you're given. But, again, you don't see

2010
01:08:54,689 --> 01:08:56,609
that that behavior or that view of some

2011
01:08:56,609 --> 01:08:59,250
of the practices or or algorithmic sort of

2012
01:08:59,250 --> 01:09:02,395
things, translate into actual behavior. So that's that's

2013
01:09:02,395 --> 01:09:04,954
another really interesting thing too. You know, you

2014
01:09:04,954 --> 01:09:07,055
see a lot of, you know, people consuming

2015
01:09:07,114 --> 01:09:09,195
influencer content as well. Like, that you know,

2016
01:09:09,195 --> 01:09:11,435
those those people are becoming more important than,

2017
01:09:11,435 --> 01:09:13,274
you know, your run-in the middle celebrities in

2018
01:09:13,274 --> 01:09:15,909
some cases. Sometimes there's some overlap too. I

2019
01:09:15,909 --> 01:09:18,229
think that at this point, influencers may in

2020
01:09:18,229 --> 01:09:20,729
fact be more famous than celebrity.

2021
01:09:21,670 --> 01:09:22,409
And also

2022
01:09:22,949 --> 01:09:23,449
AI

2023
01:09:24,149 --> 01:09:26,389
influencers that where people don't even know what

2024
01:09:26,389 --> 01:09:28,170
they're looking at is an avatar.

2025
01:09:29,135 --> 01:09:31,315
The prevalence of that is fascinating.

2026
01:09:32,655 --> 01:09:35,375
So that was, that was, some polling. Actually,

2027
01:09:35,375 --> 01:09:38,095
we're gonna, release the results, shortly. So I

2028
01:09:38,095 --> 01:09:39,695
I had the opportunity to present some of

2029
01:09:39,695 --> 01:09:41,789
this at a conference in Washington DC a

2030
01:09:41,789 --> 01:09:44,029
few weeks ago, but, we did we did

2031
01:09:44,029 --> 01:09:44,529
some,

2032
01:09:45,630 --> 01:09:48,029
survey work on on AI and and people's

2033
01:09:48,029 --> 01:09:50,189
views of of different AI tools and and

2034
01:09:50,189 --> 01:09:52,109
whether or not they would have greater or

2035
01:09:52,109 --> 01:09:53,010
or less

2036
01:09:53,515 --> 01:09:56,155
trust in a particular politician or platform if

2037
01:09:56,155 --> 01:09:57,755
they use an AI tool to convey things

2038
01:09:57,755 --> 01:09:59,375
or if or whether or not labeling,

2039
01:09:59,755 --> 01:10:00,975
things matters. And,

2040
01:10:01,275 --> 01:10:02,715
so, I mean, the the big takeaway is,

2041
01:10:02,715 --> 01:10:04,494
like, you know, people, hope,

2042
01:10:05,114 --> 01:10:06,635
and trust things more when you when you

2043
01:10:06,635 --> 01:10:09,159
are transparent about labeling something that's AI. So,

2044
01:10:09,159 --> 01:10:11,000
like, instead of trying to pass off, like,

2045
01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:14,779
a chatbot, for example, or, an AI avatar

2046
01:10:15,719 --> 01:10:18,439
as, like, a real person, human being, and

2047
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:20,279
then you're found out, like, people are not

2048
01:10:20,279 --> 01:10:21,500
gonna like that deception.

2049
01:10:22,135 --> 01:10:24,774
So labeling, I think, does help build trust

2050
01:10:24,774 --> 01:10:27,175
in in that, in that space. Transparent was

2051
01:10:27,175 --> 01:10:28,935
like, this is an AI chatbot or this

2052
01:10:28,935 --> 01:10:31,195
is an AI avatar of whatever,

2053
01:10:31,655 --> 01:10:33,975
you know, person, public figure. That being said,

2054
01:10:33,975 --> 01:10:36,055
also, people don't have a lot of confidence

2055
01:10:36,055 --> 01:10:37,835
in their own ability to

2056
01:10:38,590 --> 01:10:41,550
identify AI generated content. Like, they know that

2057
01:10:41,550 --> 01:10:43,310
it's it's very hard to spot some of

2058
01:10:43,310 --> 01:10:45,470
this stuff because of the split second judgments

2059
01:10:45,470 --> 01:10:46,909
that we're making, you know, when we're looking

2060
01:10:46,909 --> 01:10:48,130
at it. And right now

2061
01:10:48,590 --> 01:10:51,229
yeah. Sure. There's some telltale things if you

2062
01:10:51,229 --> 01:10:52,210
look really closely,

2063
01:10:52,885 --> 01:10:54,925
you know, especially at, like, the generative video

2064
01:10:54,925 --> 01:10:56,685
or or photos. Right? Like, you know, extra

2065
01:10:56,685 --> 01:10:58,125
fingers on a hand or, like, I guess,

2066
01:10:58,125 --> 01:11:00,364
hands are really hard for for AI to

2067
01:11:00,364 --> 01:11:02,364
kind of craft in in that way. But

2068
01:11:02,765 --> 01:11:05,164
Ironically, hands are very hard for artists to

2069
01:11:05,164 --> 01:11:07,104
paint. I think that's very interesting.

2070
01:11:08,090 --> 01:11:09,849
Oh, well, you know, maybe maybe it's just

2071
01:11:09,849 --> 01:11:11,849
like us then. It's as people. Right? It's

2072
01:11:11,849 --> 01:11:13,229
it's sort of adopted,

2073
01:11:13,609 --> 01:11:14,909
a lot of our own,

2074
01:11:15,289 --> 01:11:16,729
you know, quirks. But I mean, I think,

2075
01:11:16,729 --> 01:11:18,489
like, people just don't have faith, and I

2076
01:11:18,489 --> 01:11:20,750
think rightly so, in their ability to identify

2077
01:11:20,809 --> 01:11:22,893
these things because, like, why why would you?

2078
01:11:23,282 --> 01:11:27,064
I mean, the voice related, AI generative AI

2079
01:11:27,064 --> 01:11:28,905
is is pretty scary because there's nothing to

2080
01:11:28,905 --> 01:11:30,444
look at. I mean, you can hear

2081
01:11:30,905 --> 01:11:32,824
intonations that are a little bit different or

2082
01:11:32,824 --> 01:11:34,585
or off. Like, if you really know someone

2083
01:11:34,585 --> 01:11:36,125
and have heard their voice before,

2084
01:11:36,460 --> 01:11:38,139
you could probably tell. But if if you

2085
01:11:38,139 --> 01:11:40,219
only hear their voice occasionally and then you

2086
01:11:40,219 --> 01:11:43,179
hear some AI clone of of their voice,

2087
01:11:43,179 --> 01:11:45,020
it's gonna be very hard to figure out

2088
01:11:45,020 --> 01:11:47,420
exactly which which thing is which. It's an

2089
01:11:47,420 --> 01:11:47,920
interesting

2090
01:11:48,765 --> 01:11:50,864
space to be in now because I think

2091
01:11:51,164 --> 01:11:53,885
that everything that we've been struggling with over

2092
01:11:53,885 --> 01:11:54,545
the last,

2093
01:11:54,925 --> 01:11:55,425
you

2094
01:11:55,885 --> 01:11:58,545
know, decade or so with with social media

2095
01:11:58,604 --> 01:11:59,104
is

2096
01:11:59,564 --> 01:12:00,704
is going to accelerate

2097
01:12:01,250 --> 01:12:03,810
exponentially, potentially. I mean, and again, there's a

2098
01:12:03,810 --> 01:12:05,650
scenario where things don't go wrong and, like,

2099
01:12:05,650 --> 01:12:07,729
we do get proper safeguards in place for

2100
01:12:07,729 --> 01:12:09,189
AI. And there's there is

2101
01:12:09,570 --> 01:12:10,869
regulation that

2102
01:12:11,250 --> 01:12:12,470
balances innovation

2103
01:12:12,850 --> 01:12:13,829
with safety,

2104
01:12:14,465 --> 01:12:16,305
which I think is very important. But,

2105
01:12:17,104 --> 01:12:19,265
I I don't again, I couldn't predict whether

2106
01:12:19,265 --> 01:12:20,244
or not that happens

2107
01:12:20,625 --> 01:12:21,824
at at this point, but it but it

2108
01:12:21,824 --> 01:12:23,664
is it is interesting to see how people

2109
01:12:23,664 --> 01:12:25,824
are are viewing these things, especially younger people

2110
01:12:25,824 --> 01:12:27,909
who, you know, they know it's coming. They

2111
01:12:27,909 --> 01:12:31,029
know it's here. They don't have, like, super

2112
01:12:31,029 --> 01:12:32,789
strong opinions about one thing or the other.

2113
01:12:32,789 --> 01:12:34,250
There is some some skepticism,

2114
01:12:34,949 --> 01:12:35,770
I think, about

2115
01:12:36,149 --> 01:12:38,310
about AI in general and and social media.

2116
01:12:38,310 --> 01:12:40,069
It's just, like, how does that translate then

2117
01:12:40,069 --> 01:12:42,229
into into behavior? And if it doesn't translate

2118
01:12:42,229 --> 01:12:44,204
into behavior, then, you know, we kind of

2119
01:12:44,204 --> 01:12:46,125
maintain the status quo, which is it's you

2120
01:12:46,125 --> 01:12:47,725
know, these things are gonna continue to grow

2121
01:12:47,725 --> 01:12:49,564
and and go where where the users and

2122
01:12:49,564 --> 01:12:50,225
the attention

2123
01:12:51,005 --> 01:12:51,324
are,

2124
01:12:52,045 --> 01:12:54,045
unfortunately or unfortunately. So that's kind of an

2125
01:12:54,045 --> 01:12:56,385
interesting interesting thing, you know, that we're

2126
01:12:56,765 --> 01:12:58,625
we're looking at. So, I mean, it's

2127
01:12:58,970 --> 01:13:00,890
great future, but also kind of a scary

2128
01:13:00,890 --> 01:13:02,510
future. I mean, who knows? Like, it's

2129
01:13:03,369 --> 01:13:05,850
all the possible the possibilities are endless. They

2130
01:13:05,850 --> 01:13:08,010
sure are. Do you have any books that

2131
01:13:08,010 --> 01:13:10,110
you might recommend for the listeners

2132
01:13:10,570 --> 01:13:12,409
to dig in a little bit on these

2133
01:13:12,409 --> 01:13:12,909
topics?

2134
01:13:13,605 --> 01:13:16,244
There's one I don't remember the author. I

2135
01:13:16,244 --> 01:13:16,744
believe

2136
01:13:17,045 --> 01:13:19,685
it's called Surveillance Capitalism. It's a pretty dense

2137
01:13:19,925 --> 01:13:21,704
I have that book. That's a good book.

2138
01:13:21,845 --> 01:13:24,005
Very good book. I mean, that that kinda

2139
01:13:24,005 --> 01:13:25,204
just gets into the whole

2140
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:27,600
like, what makes this economy, you know, this

2141
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:30,159
sort of attention economy tick. How might people

2142
01:13:30,159 --> 01:13:30,900
find you?

2143
01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:34,180
Sure. So, we're we're on LinkedIn primarily.

2144
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:37,619
So, LinkedIn, you could just type in, Publitic,

2145
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:38,659
so that's publitic

2146
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:41,944
s, and and you'll find us there.

2147
01:13:42,664 --> 01:13:45,145
On Twitter as well, probably a little bit

2148
01:13:45,145 --> 01:13:47,625
less active there, Facebook, Instagram. So we're on

2149
01:13:47,625 --> 01:13:48,444
all the major,

2150
01:13:49,064 --> 01:13:52,024
platforms there. And then, additionally, we're we're starting

2151
01:13:52,024 --> 01:13:53,145
to populate our,

2152
01:13:53,625 --> 01:13:55,719
our sort of newsletter blog a little bit

2153
01:13:55,719 --> 01:13:57,260
more called Influence IQ,

2154
01:13:58,039 --> 01:13:58,939
which is influenceiq.publicics.com.

2155
01:14:02,119 --> 01:14:04,199
We're we're gonna be posting that AI data

2156
01:14:04,199 --> 01:14:06,359
shortly. We've done a a bunch of research

2157
01:14:06,359 --> 01:14:08,119
in in the clean energy space as well.

2158
01:14:08,119 --> 01:14:10,024
So, like, we post, you know, ideas, research,

2159
01:14:10,024 --> 01:14:12,505
strategy, all of those interesting things. Well, what

2160
01:14:12,505 --> 01:14:14,265
I hope what are interesting to me, I'm

2161
01:14:14,265 --> 01:14:15,784
not sure what you're talking to anyone else,

2162
01:14:15,784 --> 01:14:17,305
but, like, I'm I'm a complete nerd about

2163
01:14:17,305 --> 01:14:18,045
it. So,

2164
01:14:18,585 --> 01:14:20,505
it's that that's that's what makes me tick

2165
01:14:20,505 --> 01:14:23,150
anyway. So And that's exactly how I run

2166
01:14:23,150 --> 01:14:25,470
Hey Human. These conversations I have may not

2167
01:14:25,470 --> 01:14:27,630
be for everyone, but they certainly fascinate me,

2168
01:14:27,630 --> 01:14:29,329
and I'm the one sitting here. So

2169
01:14:29,630 --> 01:14:32,189
that's the way it's good. That's great. Matthew,

2170
01:14:32,189 --> 01:14:35,170
I've really, really enjoyed this conversation. It's fascinating.

2171
01:14:35,390 --> 01:14:37,814
I there's so much to talk about, and

2172
01:14:37,814 --> 01:14:40,295
I would happily eat up your entire day

2173
01:14:40,295 --> 01:14:42,135
talking about it. You have an open door

2174
01:14:42,135 --> 01:14:44,135
if you ever wanna come back and be

2175
01:14:44,135 --> 01:14:46,555
on the show. I welcome that for sure.

2176
01:14:46,935 --> 01:14:49,015
Thank you. I've really enjoyed the conversation and

2177
01:14:49,015 --> 01:14:50,729
absolutely will take you back up on that.

2178
01:14:51,130 --> 01:14:53,550
Yeah. And thank you for listening, everybody.

2179
01:14:54,090 --> 01:14:56,409
Bye. This is great. Thank you. Thank you.

2180
01:14:56,409 --> 01:14:58,430
Have a good one. Bye bye. Bye.

2181
01:15:00,569 --> 01:15:03,050
Rate and review and subscribe to Hey Human

2182
01:15:03,050 --> 01:15:05,130
podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your

2183
01:15:05,130 --> 01:15:05,595
podcast.

2184
01:15:06,074 --> 01:15:07,295
Thanks. Bye.