Hey, humans. How's it going?
Susan Ruth here. Thanks for listening to another
episode
of Hey, Human podcast.
This is episode 420,
and my guest is Ellie Khan. Ellie is
a multi hyphenate human. She's a psychotherapist,
producer, journalist, and historian, more
specifically an oral historian, a collector of humanity's
triumphs and sorrows.
She's the founder of Living Legacies Productions and
helps create meaningful books for people
and their families
to preserve their history for generations to come.
She also works with foundations to help collect
stories of groups of people and
and make sure that those stories are not
forgotten. Really interesting woman, definitely a kindred spirit.
And
I so enjoyed talking with her. I met
her by habit stance. She was sitting behind
me at lunch one day,
and we got to talking and found that
we had
storytelling in common and and history
of humans in common. So I'm looking forward
to you hearing this episode.
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Be well.
Be kind.
Be love. Here we go.
Aly Khan, welcome to Hey Human. Thank you.
Hi.
Hi. It's so nice to see you.
Nice to see you too.
Your work, your life's work now, I don't
know if it we're gonna find out if
that's been your work the whole time, but
it was very intriguing to me. It's right
up my alley. So I'm excited to have
you on the show. Yeah. It's fun for
me to talk about my work. So this
is great. Yeah. Well, let's go back to
the beginning. Where are you from?
Where did you grow up? And how did
your environment shape you?
I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio.
I'm 75.
And so it was a long time ago.
I
was really shaped by having wonderful grandparents
and a father who was a storyteller.
And I was very fortunate. My dad and
I interviewed one of my grandfathers
when I was in high school. I wish
I remembered how that came about, but it's
amazing to hear my grandfather's voice all these
years later.
And we interviewed him about his parents and
and
what he knew about his family background and
also his own life. So that was probably
the beginning, but it didn't occur to me
to become an oral historian then. I went
to
Malvern Elementary
School, then he went to Woodbury Junior High
School, then he went to Shaker Heights High
School,
then I went to Lake Forest College,
and then I graduated
from
occupational
therapy school at Ohio State. It came about
because I volunteered with children with disabilities,
in high school.
And then I heard about the fact that
you could work with those kind of children
as an occupational
therapist,
and I didn't end up doing that. It
was my goal. But when I the first
job I got was in the psychiatric
setting as an occupational therapist.
What was that like? It was interesting. It
was,
truthfully, it was not really what I wanted
to do. And I
slipped into,
I mean, deliberately
doing art therapy instead of occupational therapy at
the hospital for 10 years where I worked,
Woodview Calabasas Hospital. It's no longer
around, but I was there for 10 years
from 73 to 83.
I've actually been intrigued by art therapy for
a while now. I've been poking around and
reading up on it. Can you talk a
little bit about it?
What I did at the hospital
was offer patients
a variety of art materials,
whether that was clay or paints or colored
pencils.
And I would give them a prompt
such as
in any way you want,
use the materials that call out to you
to show how you're feeling today
or to represent,
something, a memory of your childhood
or something like that, which is interesting because
those are the kind of questions I asked
in my career now as an oral historian.
The art therapy was really exciting because I
also ran,
just a verbal therapy group with patients. And
sometimes people who had a hard time talking
in the verbal therapy group, when they had
some image
as a vehicle or a bridge
to talk about what was going on with
them, it was easier.
I was very impressed with,
also the people I studied with who were
art therapists.
It was it was really wonderful. And I
did it myself also, you know, scribbling and
seeing what image came out. That was, till
1983.
In the movies,
we see art therapy being used generally, it's
kids drawing pictures of, you know, their house
is on fire, or daddy has big
claws, or there's a monster in the closet.
Does does that happen in real life? Do
kids
draw like that when there is trouble afoot?
Well, I worked with adolescents and adults, not
children.
But, yes, there there were all sorts of
images that, you know, one one time a
a woman drew a picture of herself as
a tree
strangling
her father
because she was feeling so powerless
with him, and this was how she represented
herself
feeling more powerful.
So
those kind of images, yeah, it was those
you you never you never knew what was
gonna come out, whether it was kinda realistic
or abstract.
That's fascinating. I'm really, really intrigued by that
work.
Tell me how you began the process of
collecting stories of other people, which, of course,
I love them.
Yes. We know you do. Well, when I
when I left the job in 83,
I went to do you know about the
book, What Color is Your Parachute?
Have you heard of I have heard of
it. That book, Richard Bowles, who wrote that
book, was inspired by John Crystal,
and he had
a place in New York, the John Crystal
Center, and I decided to go there for
a week to a work life planning course.
And it was the kind of
experience
where you did a lot of exercises
to discover
who you were, what your skills were, what
your interests were, what you know turned you
on
and
it was a fluke but at the end
of the course
when they asked the question, if money was
no object object, what would you like to
be doing?
I said, I'd love to be a photojournalist.
Now I guess I should back up and
say I had taken a a photography
class at the local junior college,
and we had to
find someone or several people to do a
photo essay of their of them.
So I
I did 2 things. 1 was
a woman having her baby.
So I took pictures of her in her
yoga class, and then I got to go
to the delivery
of her baby and take pictures
and make, you know, make made a kind
of a collage of the a photo essay
for the class. The, the second person was
a man named Frank Perkins
who lived in the park near my house
in Woodland my apartment in Woodland Hills.
He was a homeless man,
and he and I got to talking.
He looked like he was at a country
club. He was tan. He was smoking a
pipe. He had white hair.
It looked very relaxed, and I followed him
through his day and took pictures of him
for a photo essay.
So in the John Crystal course,
they said to me, okay.
You wanna be a photojournalist.
Here's your homework.
Take those photos that you took of this
homeless man to the local newspaper.
And so when I got home,
I
got up my courage
and
went to the daily the daily news or
the Valley news. I forget what it was
called at that time in the San Fernando
Valley in Los Angeles
and
showed them the pictures of Frank,
and they said, you know, we would really
like to use these. We'll send someone out
to interview him. And very impulsively,
I said,
oh, could I interview him?
And that was the first article I ever
wrote,
which led to me becoming a freelance writer
and journalist. And I've I still do some
articles, but
I I was full time freelance, you you
know, writer for the LA Times, for travel
and leisure, for Parents Magazine.
It was it's a wonderful career as you
know, because
I could meet someone like a a a
guy who is a ventriloquist
on the street in Hollywood,
and I
could suggest that I write a story about
him to The Herald Examiner. I wrote a
lot for the old Herald Examiner, and they
let me write an article about him.
And it was it was just fabulous.
So I had a wonderful time as a
as a journalist. And I was in the
in New Hampshire
in 1988
with my mother.
I heard about this woman
who was very popular and famous in her
neighborhood.
She drove a yellow Mustang, and she always
dressed in purple. They called her the purple
lady.
And I wrote an article about her
for,
a magazine that was for older people, 50
plus, I think it was called.
And somehow,
a friend said to me after she read
that,
do you know about the field of oral
history?
And I did not know anything about oral
histories.
But an oral history is something from ancient
days when the elder of the tribe would
tell a story
about the tribe or about life or whatever.
So I found a mentor
named Gary Shumway who taught at Cal State
Fullerton where they have an oral history program,
and he became my mentor.
And in 1988,
I started doing oral histories, and that's been
my career for over 35 years. I still
do some freelance writing, but
I
practiced first on my parents. I interviewed both
of them,
and then I created a book from the
interviews I did with them. And then I
just started
getting hired. In 1991,
I was hired by the Jewish Historical Society
to to create an oral history
of Boyle Heights and East Los Angeles, which
had been a very large Eastern European Jewish
community
between World War 1 and World War 2.
And I taught volunteers
to interview people who had lived in that
community.
You know, how do how do you do
interviews? You know, how do you listen to
people? How do you ask questions? And so
so that was part of what I was
teaching these volunteers.
From that, I produced a documentary
film called Meet Me at Brooklyn and So
to
that involved me interviewing about 50 people, including
Xavier
Slawski, who grew up in Boyle Heights and
just wonderful, interesting stories
and about getting to America and finding this
community in Los Angeles where there were pickle
barrels on the street and
signs in in Yiddish
and lots of political
arguments,
other communists and Trotskyites
and whatever.
And
then I taught
students from that. I decided to teach students
to interview their grandparents,
and that was at Palms Middle School. And,
one boy
called his grandmother.
It was actually to interview their grandparents
or their parents if there weren't grandparents. So
he interviewed his grandmother in Korea
over the phone. And,
I had
also been contacted by Spielberg's
Shoah Foundation
to do interviews with Holocaust survivors
since they knew I was already an oral
historian.
I,
didn't really need to be trained to do
it, but they had a fabulous training,
and I interviewed a number of people who
were already my clients. It was very interesting.
They were all, of course, very moving interviews
because many of the people's parents
and and families had all been killed during
the Holocaust by the Nazis
and Hitler.
And so their stories were,
really important to be shared.
And a lot of the ones
who were my clients,
they were hesitant to tell their children about
their experiences because they didn't wanna upset their
kids. Their kids didn't wanna ask their parents
about their experiences because they didn't wanna upset
their parents. So I ended up
over the years, being kind of a bridge
between them. And and most of my oral
history interviews are end up being books.
So I I have it transcribed by people
and then I edit that and organize it
into a book with photos from the family
and documents.
And one of my clients had a party
with his grandchildren and nieces and nephews. He
autographed the books
and gave one to each of them. So,
I mean, you can imagine what a wonderful
career it is. It's like, I meet the
most fascinating
people, and I feel good about the fact
that so many people tell me this is
not what I feel good about. I feel
very frustrated at how many people say we
kept meaning to
frustrated
at how many people say we kept meaning
to interview my parents or my grandparents, and
we were just so busy. We just never
got around to
or we gave my grandmother a book to
fill in, and she never got around to
it.
And there's just I I might not have
interviewed my own parents had I not started
doing
this work. That makes me very sad when
I hear that. I've
given a gift for to many friends as
a birthday present,
to interview them or their or their parents.
And it's, you know, it's a joy. And
Zoom has changed things, of course. I have
clients in other states. I have clients in
other countries. And
it's like, you can do it on Zoom.
And then I record it so that so
that the family has the recording. And sometimes
that's all they want, and sometimes they want
to have a book made or, you know,
have edited videos over the years. And I
did 2 other oral histories that were documentaries
for Paramount
Studios. I interviewed
Cecil b DeMille's granddaughter,
Cece
DeMille Presley,
about him.
And, you know, she got to go to
Egypt when he was producing the 10 Commandments.
Then I interviewed a man
at who was at Paramount for many years,
and he wandered around
the the lot,
stopping people to tell them stories about the
actors who'd come through Paramount. His name was
AC Lyle.
And so those oral histories
were edited into into into videos. So it's
a mixture, but
mostly, I make books, hundreds, you know, hundreds
of clients I've have made the books for.
And it's really fun to hand them to
them, you know, when they're done.
But mostly, you know, I get the gift
of meeting all of these wonderful people.
Absolutely.
And, I mean, I've interviewed my parents for
this show twice now.
Oh, wonderful. You know, single singularly
each, twice.
My grandparents are long deceased, which is unfortunate,
and they died when I was quite young.
But you discover,
and I I mean the royal you,
so much
about your parents
when you do that, when you when you
interview them because
they have a world unto themselves
that they'll never show if you don't ask.
And
it really is. I mean, the stories they
told were
so wild.
I bet. We don't like to see our
parents as human beings, I guess, and
at some point that when you cross that
when you cross over to understand that they
are their own
autonomous people that
they have these
lush lives.
Yeah. I I'm so glad you did interview
them. It's,
it's very powerful experience.
You know, in terms of my interviews
with people who've had
traumatic experiences,
I think being a licensed psychotherapist
helps helps me
be very, very comfortable
if they are moved to tears or they
can't talk, you know, because of
something that and I'm you know, I say,
are you sure you wanna talk about this
or it's okay if you wanna stop? And
one time, a family had me
interview everyone in the family
because their sister was dying of cancer, and
she was at the
interview. So I interviewed her,
and I interviewed her sons about her, and
I interviewed her sisters and her mother,
all telling favorite stories about this woman who
was dying of cancer.
And then I
sat her and her mother and sisters down
because they said they really hadn't talked about
how they were feeling about the fact that
she was gonna die soon. And
I invited them to talk about it, and
I was very moved. I, you know, I
have to kinda steady myself when people are
talking about something very traumatic or moving. It's
like I have to detach a bit,
but still
have compassion. Yeah. Things like that that are
very powerful for me.
I have recordings. So every time I visited
my father,
he was
reminiscing.
So I've got hours and hours and hours
of of
interviewing him or just listening, recording him. You
know?
So he influenced me a lot in terms
of
him. Both my parents knew about their family
background,
and and I, again, I knew all my
grandparents.
1 2 of my grandparents when they came
from Hungary moved to
Omaha, Nebraska
and opened a saloon,
which apparently wasn't uncommon for Jewish people,
Jewish immigrants.
Apparently. And this is, you know, not a
nice thing, but my grandmother
was afraid of the Indians
that were coming into the saloon. I mean,
you know, coming from Hungary, she had never
experienced.
You're talking about indigenous peoples. Right? Indigenous people
in in Omaha, Nebraska.
Yes. Formerly called Indians
and,
now called Native Americans. But in the story
my dad told, it was, you know, he
said Indians. And so they moved to Cleveland
where there was family. And his joke was
where there was a baseball team formerly known
as the Cleveland Indians.
An irony not last, of course. Yes.
How has your
taking in of all these stories
from a
pretty decent
swath of humanity,
how has taking in all these stories shaped
you personally?
Changed you even?
I think that
I've become
even more
interested in hearing
people share things about themselves.
And I find myself
meeting people wherever I go and talking to
them.
My ex husband said he had to stop
me from picking up old people in the
park, which, of course, now I am one
of those. I think it's I've it's given
me I've it's taught me patience,
you know, to be able to wait and
just listen.
And
I think that I'm so awed by how
people have gotten through things in their lives.
And and that makes me very grateful
for
my life and and, you know, the things
that I have in my in my life
that are
easy.
I I volunteered
for a program,
in Brooklyn,
the sharing network. It's a program for
African American
people in a housing development
in
Brooklyn,
and I led reminiscence
groups with them where I asked
5 or 6 people to talk about their
family background.
And
there's nothing like hearing about
people having to
warn their
African American
sons
to be careful
walking down the street or being with their
friends
to make me realize how I've never had
to teach my son that at all. I've
never had to be afraid of that. Their
stories were very different
than some of the other people I interview
in terms of their recipes and their, you
know, their grandparents,
and it was just a joy. It's a
wonderful program because they still have lots of
classes that are done all on Zoom.
And but the people are on their telephones
talking from their apartments
in this development.
It was a privilege to spend about 8
months, you know, getting to know people who
had such different lives than I have. It's
so important in my opinion to hear the
stories of those who are
having different experiences than ourselves. It makes the
world smaller.
It it develops empathy, which, my god, do
we need that more than ever.
Yeah. It's really it's an honor too. It's
an honor to bear witness to the stories
that people have.
I am not always as good at not
crying. I have definitely gotten emotional on a
few interviews over the last 8 years.
But for the most part, I'm able to
hold it together, but every once in a
while,
I get pretty choked up. Yeah. It's tough.
But you're right. Being it is an honor.
Absolutely.
It's a privilege.
I worry that there are so many stories
that will
we can't get them all, obviously, but that
there's a whole generation
that keeps leaving and then the next that
keep leaving,
and
they take with them
such richness.
Yeah.
And then people forget.
Yeah. That's right. That was one of the
reasons that I taught,
the kids to interview their grandparents because that
really could be part of
every
school,
you know, to to have kids
in our it's, you know, it's an also,
how often do kids spend a couple hours
talking to their grandparents? But you're right. There's
so many
people who aren't getting a chance to, you
know,
to reminisce
and share and know that their stories will
live on. You know? Yeah. I think it's
very gratifying for a lot of people.
Yeah. A little bit of immortality.
I was hired by a man named Elliot
Sturman. He found out that he had a
brain tumor and he was in his sixties,
and he hired me to sit behind him
while he lay on his one of his
adult no longer living at home, but their
son his son's
bed
reading his children's favorite
childhood books,
Cat in the Hat, Doctor Seuss, Calvin and
Hobbes. And while he read, he was pointing
out things in the book just like you
would read to a child, but he was
better than I had ever been reading to
my son. And what he said was that
he will never know his grandchildren,
and he wanted to be more than just
a name to them or a picture on
the wall.
So this is this is what he left,
you know, all of these
recordings of him reading
all these books, you know, for his kids
to pass on
someday.
That's beautiful. What a great it's a great
idea.
Yeah. It was fabulous. And and that that
one, I had a hard time not crying.
Yeah. He was talking about the fact that
he would never know his grandchildren, and he
died 6 months later.
Yeah. I've interviewed a couple people who
are either dying
and or at the very end of life.
And
talk about humbling.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. That's right. I, I interviewed a woman
who was in hospice,
and I couldn't go in because she was
so she was being kept in isolation,
and we just talked on the phone.
And
yeah,
I'm still visiting my 90 something year old
clients who've become friends. It's just
yeah. It's a privilege
and fun.
And you can't capture all the stories at
once. Like I said, I interviewed my parents
twice now each, and they told different stories.
I mean, tons of stories.
So I got to hear
all these
different
things that make them
more,
more human. More human is a I don't
know. It's hard to explain how I feel
about that, but you know, because you of
your work. But for those listening, I I
could not recommend this more
to interview the people around you
because
it's fascinating.
Yeah. It is.
What are you working on right now?
Well, last year, I interviewed someone for 18
hours. He's in New Jersey,
and it was by Zoom. And I've, been
edit I edited it into a manuscript,
which he's now reading through. Then I have
2 other people whose I interviewed for about
9 or 10 hours each, so I'm editing
those right now.
I have a couple of clients in Israel
who
it's their project's been put on hold
because their kids are in the army. And
also I was hired by the world's oldest
women's rowing club
in Mission Bay, San Diego.
And I got to go down there and
interview
people, and I got to go out rowing.
And so now I'm doing still doing some
Zoom interviews for that,
organization, which is their their stories about their
grandmother starting this rowing club
in, you know, in the close of the
late 1800,
going out rowing in a barge. So that's
been a really, really fun
fun project.
Who's getting your story aside from me right
now? But do you are you leaving your
story as well?
I started to take an autobiography
class through Santa Monica College Emeritus. So I
have been writing
my stories and my memoir
things. And it's been really fun because some
of them are about my mother
and her dementia and, you know, what we
went through together when she had dementia
and about my father after he had a
stroke
and the fact that it was a time
when he needed help, which he didn't want.
So it's about the relationship that I've had
with my parents. I'm also writing about
some of the men in my life from
starting at 6 years old when one of
my little friends kissed me in his closet.
As somebody that does capture stories, when you
are faced with something as tragic as dementia
that robs people of their stories
and their history,
how do you
how do you support that? Because, of course,
many of us have
family members or loved ones who are going
through that.
Well, if I interview
the person who in the who's in the
early stages of dementia,
which I've done quite often,
They see that something's happening to them and
they want or their family says, let's get
this done while you can.
And it's very moving because they're scared,
of what's happening to them, the loss of
control, and they don't know what's ahead.
And so and they also
feel what most people do, a relief to
be
able to share their stories and reminisce and
and
cry if they need to cry or,
laugh when something's funny. And
with my mom,
she got her dementia was gradual and she
still knew me until the end.
So there were some very funny moments
with her dementia.
She was living in a boarding care where
there were just 6 people. It's like a
house with just 6.
I used to joke and say they were
inmates, but
6 residents. So they're sitting at the dining
room table, and this woman is reading the
paper. This is years ago, of course. And
the woman says,
oh, my oh, my goodness. The queen mother
died.
And my mother said, really? How old was
she? She says,
let me look. Oh, she was a 101.
And my mother said, isn't that amazing?
There's a pause.
Woman says,
wow, the queen mother died. And my mother
said, really? How old was she? And the
woman says,
she was a 101.
And my mother says,
really? That's incredible.
So this went on about 3 times and
I had to leave the room
because I was laughing, but I called my
sister
and told her we had we had lots
of conversations about my mom where I told
her about the experience of, say, taking my
mother to,
the movies and having her loudly say, what
did she say?
And other things like that. If we didn't
laugh we would just be crying about
but she still knew me till the end.
I will tell you one other funny thing
with her. She had a brother-in-law that she
didn't like
and I took her to his funeral
and we're sitting in the front row and
everyone's very quiet. My mother loudly says, who
died?
And I hissed at her, I've died
and she kind of giggled. We get after
the funeral we get to their house
where you know they're having food
and we're sitting there I gave my mom
a sandwich we're sitting there and my mother
said, where are we? And I said, we're
at Carol and Bob's house. She said, oh,
where's Bob?
I said, we just buried him. And
she just burst out laughing. So I have
written
for my own memoirs
about those kind of stories, actually, that was
in that was also published as an article.
So some of my
stories about my parents
and what they went through,
I've, I've written as articles also.
So that was that's fun. That's straight out
of a British comedy.
Have you had people do
what one would call a deathbed confessions
to you?
People frequently
say things that
their family didn't know before, but I don't
know
if there would be anything I would call
a deathbed
confession.
I don't think there's been anything that is
quite that dramatic,
but there's a lot that people have said
that their family never knew
before
and
that they had been hesitant to tell their
family.
I think it's interesting
when you do what we do,
that it really aside developing empathy and listening
skills, I think
it truly helps develop your nonjudgmental
side as well. Because you can't be listening
to someone's story and say, oh, how could
you have done that? Or, oh my god.
And to that point, when I interviewed my
mom one of the times, I said, if
you could do it all over again,
would you have gotten married and had children?
She had 3 children.
And she said, absolutely not.
And I could have taken that 2 ways.
I could just accept it for that's her
the way she feels, and it has nothing
to do with me. That's her life she's
talking about. Or I could have gotten really
pissed off. But I actually found it pretty
funny because I already knew the answer, I
think, and somewhere in the back of my
mind. But
it really does teach you along the way
that everyone is really just doing the best
they can with what they've got.
Yeah. That's beautifully said. Yeah. Absolutely. It's
funny about your mom.
I have
just once
or twice
when I sent the interview, the recording to
a client,
they've said, please remove this part. I don't
want my family
to know that.
That's happened so rarely out of, you know,
35 years of hundreds of interviews, maybe 2
times. And I it was like, I was
surprised
and sorry that they felt, you know, that
they
were so
unhappy about having shared that. And, of course,
I kept it. It was everything's confidential.
You know?
Yeah. It's hard not to dance at the
shame prom sometimes.
The other thing I'm doing is, as a
gift to a friend. I'm interviewing on Zoom
his,
older sister and her husband,
but
their 3 children are present,
and
her
2 siblings are present.
And so it's a whole family thing. And,
you know, like you were saying about
interviewing
of one's parents,
everyone's asking questions. It's not just me asking
the questions. And,
it's really been fun because they have memories
that the peep the the stars of the
show don't have and
and and their version of things growing up.
So it's been really fun.
That's so cool. What a great idea. That's
really been fun.
Tell people how they might find you out
there in the world. Well, I have a
website,
living legacies,
plural, productions,
plural.com,
or they can email me,
e like elephant, k like king, z like
zebra,
male,
mail@gmail.com.
Perfect. I'll put links for people too. And
are your books available on Amazon?
No. These are just for the family.
Oh, okay. Yes. And and, you know, I
think in it for that reason, people feel
very comfortable
that this is private,
that, you know, this is just for the
family.
So,
there have been people who have
given ordered books and given them to friends,
you know, and other people, but no, we
don't publish them on Amazon.
Okay.
But your own memoir will be?
No. I'm doing that just for fun.
Oh, really? Okay.
No. You know, that's interesting.
In the autobiography
class that I'm in, there have been published
authors in that class who have written,
you know, their memoirs and put them on
Amazon.
So,
but, no, you make an interest I I'm
gonna think about that.
I'd read it. I think some of the
stories that I've written for the class would
be fun for people to read.
I mean, we learn and grow with each
other,
and your experiences
will help shape other people who may end
up going through the same thing or are
going through the same thing now. I I
cannot stress that enough as well that we
are all just here to be mirrors to
each other. You're so good at what you
do, Susan.
Thank you. I really I really enjoyed
spending the time with you. Well, I take
that as a huge compliment given what you
do, so thank you. Yeah. Thank you for
listening, everybody.
Bye. Bye bye, everyone.
Rate, review, and subscribe to Hey Human wherever
you find your
podcasts. Thanks. Bye.