1 00:00:08,225 --> 00:00:08,765 - Hey, humans. 2 00:00:08,935 --> 00:00:10,725 How's it going? Susan Ruth here. 3 00:00:10,725 --> 00:00:12,645 Thanks for listening to another episode 4 00:00:13,225 --> 00:00:14,325 of Hey Human Podcast. 5 00:00:15,875 --> 00:00:20,005 This is episode 407, and my guest is Dr. 6 00:00:20,185 --> 00:00:23,925 Annika Hili. Mo Annika is an award-winning Swedish 7 00:00:23,925 --> 00:00:26,685 filmmaker, and we discuss her upcoming documentary, 8 00:00:27,105 --> 00:00:30,085 the Last Witch about Elizabeth Johnson, Jr. 9 00:00:30,685 --> 00:00:34,645 A 22-year-old who was the last person wrongfully convicted 10 00:00:34,645 --> 00:00:38,525 of witchcraft during the 1692 Salem Witch Trials. 11 00:00:39,185 --> 00:00:42,805 And the film is about the efforts to exonerate her 12 00:00:43,385 --> 00:00:44,965 by a Massachusetts teacher, 13 00:00:45,225 --> 00:00:47,045 her students, and a state senator. 14 00:00:47,835 --> 00:00:50,285 I've seen the trailer. I cannot wait 15 00:00:50,305 --> 00:00:51,645 for this movie to come out. 16 00:00:52,145 --> 00:00:55,085 My friend Lauren said, oh, I've started working 17 00:00:55,085 --> 00:00:56,885 with this really amazing woman 18 00:00:57,625 --> 00:00:59,405 and she's doing this documentary, 19 00:00:59,465 --> 00:01:03,405 and it's about this wrongfully accused witch from 16 20 00:01:03,405 --> 00:01:06,525 hundreds and, and she never was exonerated. 21 00:01:06,705 --> 00:01:08,045 And, and you've gotta see it. 22 00:01:08,045 --> 00:01:09,085 So I checked out the trailer 23 00:01:09,265 --> 00:01:12,885 and oh my gosh, this looks like the coolest documentary. 24 00:01:12,885 --> 00:01:16,285 So I'm super excited for you to hear this episode, 25 00:01:17,275 --> 00:01:18,445 general stuff. 26 00:01:18,625 --> 00:01:20,725 I'm on Patreon at Susan Ruth. 27 00:01:21,495 --> 00:01:24,405 Check out hey human podcast.com for links. 28 00:01:24,405 --> 00:01:26,165 And to learn more about my guests in the show, 29 00:01:26,575 --> 00:01:29,325 check out Susan ruth.com to learn about me 30 00:01:29,425 --> 00:01:30,925 and my other artistic endeavors. 31 00:01:31,345 --> 00:01:35,045 Follow Susan Ruth and hey, human podcast on social media. 32 00:01:35,755 --> 00:01:38,725 Find my music on Spotify, apple music, Amazon music, 33 00:01:39,005 --> 00:01:41,005 wherever you get your music rate, review 34 00:01:41,025 --> 00:01:44,045 and subscribe to, Hey, human podcast on iTunes, iHeart, 35 00:01:44,195 --> 00:01:47,485 Spotify, Stitcher, all the places that you get your podcast. 36 00:01:48,625 --> 00:01:51,085 And thank you for helping to 37 00:01:52,155 --> 00:01:56,485 keep this show alive and to send it to your friends 38 00:01:56,505 --> 00:01:57,885 and family and all of that. 39 00:01:58,045 --> 00:02:02,365 I know there is a bazillion podcasts at this point to listen 40 00:02:02,425 --> 00:02:04,565 to, and I really appreciate 41 00:02:04,565 --> 00:02:07,005 that you are turning tuning into this one. 42 00:02:07,295 --> 00:02:10,205 Thank you for that. All right. Thank you for listening. 43 00:02:10,945 --> 00:02:14,005 Be well. Be kind and be love. 44 00:02:14,635 --> 00:02:17,485 Here we go. Hi. 45 00:02:18,175 --> 00:02:20,605 - Hello. How are you? - I'm well. How are 46 00:02:20,605 --> 00:02:22,005 - You? I'm good, thank you. 47 00:02:22,435 --> 00:02:24,125 - Welcome to Hey, human. 48 00:02:24,855 --> 00:02:26,925 - Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. 49 00:02:27,105 --> 00:02:30,325 And huge shout out to Lauren Holiday. She's amazing. 50 00:02:30,505 --> 00:02:32,925 She started working with us as an intern, 51 00:02:32,945 --> 00:02:34,645 and she's so fantastic that she is 52 00:02:34,885 --> 00:02:37,085 becoming our new assistant. Yay. Yay. 53 00:02:37,305 --> 00:02:39,485 - That's awesome. Yay for Laura. She's really great. Yeah. 54 00:02:39,795 --> 00:02:42,005 - Yeah, she's fantastic and great people are good people 55 00:02:42,005 --> 00:02:44,645 to hold onto, so we're definitely holding onto her. 56 00:02:45,185 --> 00:02:48,205 As far as the documentary that she's helping out with, 57 00:02:48,515 --> 00:02:50,005 it's an incredible story. 58 00:02:50,205 --> 00:02:52,165 I think it's one of those stories. 59 00:02:52,275 --> 00:02:54,365 It's once in a lifetime in some ways, 60 00:02:54,395 --> 00:02:56,245 even though we may have more than one, 61 00:02:56,435 --> 00:02:58,685 once in a lifetime projects coming our way. 62 00:02:59,505 --> 00:03:01,365 But this, this is definitely one of them. 63 00:03:01,885 --> 00:03:05,125 I can't wait to show this documentary to the world. 64 00:03:05,885 --> 00:03:07,725 - I think it's gonna win a lot of awards 65 00:03:07,945 --> 00:03:09,205 and a lot of accolades. 66 00:03:09,205 --> 00:03:11,125 And the people are really, uh, it feels 67 00:03:11,145 --> 00:03:12,965 to me like one, and, and we'll get into it. 68 00:03:12,965 --> 00:03:14,325 I wanna start talking about you first, 69 00:03:14,545 --> 00:03:18,805 but it feels to me that the last, which is gonna be one 70 00:03:18,805 --> 00:03:21,325 of those movies where everyone's talking about it 71 00:03:21,325 --> 00:03:22,525 and saying, have you seen that movie? 72 00:03:22,835 --> 00:03:25,125 Have you seen that movie? Oh, you've gotta see that movie. 73 00:03:25,345 --> 00:03:27,925 So I think you've got yourself a real winner there. 74 00:03:28,345 --> 00:03:30,205 - That's the intent. That's what we hope for. 75 00:03:30,225 --> 00:03:31,805 We want to have those conversations, 76 00:03:31,985 --> 00:03:34,885 and we'd love to get those awards, obviously, too. 77 00:03:35,195 --> 00:03:36,205 Ones, it's out there. 78 00:03:36,965 --> 00:03:39,285 I think even more importantly, starting those conversations 79 00:03:39,345 --> 00:03:41,925 and getting people talking to each other again. 80 00:03:41,995 --> 00:03:43,245 Have you ever noticed how little 81 00:03:43,245 --> 00:03:44,405 people are talking to each other? 82 00:03:44,905 --> 00:03:46,405 Yes. Really talking . 83 00:03:46,905 --> 00:03:49,325 - Yes. I actually do notice that. Yes, indeed. 84 00:03:49,415 --> 00:03:52,365 Let's get into you. Talk about where you're from, 85 00:03:52,475 --> 00:03:55,725 where'd you grow up, what shaped you as a, as a human, 86 00:03:56,925 --> 00:04:00,005 - I have a little bit of an eclectic background compared 87 00:04:00,065 --> 00:04:01,845 to some, but not all people. 88 00:04:02,605 --> 00:04:03,685 I was born in Sweden. 89 00:04:04,125 --> 00:04:05,245 I am a Swedish citizen, 90 00:04:05,505 --> 00:04:08,285 and I am a permanent resident here in the United States 91 00:04:08,285 --> 00:04:10,925 these days, but I grew up in Sweden 92 00:04:11,305 --> 00:04:12,805 and also lived in a couple 93 00:04:12,805 --> 00:04:14,645 of other countries when I was growing up, so 94 00:04:14,645 --> 00:04:17,685 that makes me a little bit different compared to many 95 00:04:17,705 --> 00:04:19,645 who live in one space all the time. 96 00:04:20,505 --> 00:04:22,485 And so I lived in, uh, 97 00:04:22,635 --> 00:04:25,325 very briefly in Switzerland when I was very, very young, 98 00:04:25,325 --> 00:04:26,485 so I barely remember that. 99 00:04:27,225 --> 00:04:28,925 But I also lived in The Bahamas. 100 00:04:29,045 --> 00:04:31,485 I lived in the United Kingdom. 101 00:04:32,085 --> 00:04:33,205 I went to school in England, 102 00:04:33,465 --> 00:04:36,805 and I lived in Los Angeles for a bit when I was growing up 103 00:04:37,105 --> 00:04:38,485 before returning to Sweden, 104 00:04:38,985 --> 00:04:41,165 and then eventually came back to the US 105 00:04:41,345 --> 00:04:43,765 and got more educated and got more educated 106 00:04:44,065 --> 00:04:45,205 and got more educated, 107 00:04:45,265 --> 00:04:46,925 and ended up landing in Los Angeles 108 00:04:47,055 --> 00:04:48,405 where I now live in Santa Monica. 109 00:04:49,195 --> 00:04:52,645 - What made you and your family move around so much? 110 00:04:52,755 --> 00:04:53,965 What was the impetus for that? 111 00:04:54,465 --> 00:04:55,925 - In our case, it was business. 112 00:04:56,225 --> 00:04:59,285 And so as the family moved, we all moved. 113 00:04:59,665 --> 00:05:03,285 But it is an experience that really shaped me in many ways, 114 00:05:03,675 --> 00:05:06,565 both going to local schools in different countries, 115 00:05:06,745 --> 00:05:10,205 and I think especially going to school in England, 116 00:05:10,225 --> 00:05:13,125 it was a boarding school where there were people from all 117 00:05:13,125 --> 00:05:16,725 around the world, and it taught me a lot about humanity, 118 00:05:16,895 --> 00:05:19,005 which I think is very pertinent 119 00:05:19,025 --> 00:05:22,165 or germane to this conversation, who we are 120 00:05:22,185 --> 00:05:24,725 around the world, and the challenges that people face 121 00:05:24,945 --> 00:05:28,165 around the world, and how, 122 00:05:28,265 --> 00:05:31,365 and who we become as human beings as a result, 123 00:05:32,505 --> 00:05:34,285 how cultural differences shape us, 124 00:05:34,345 --> 00:05:36,565 and how major political events shape us. 125 00:05:36,565 --> 00:05:38,805 So I learned that at a fairly early age, 126 00:05:39,625 --> 00:05:43,285 and that's also really impacted me as a human being 127 00:05:43,865 --> 00:05:45,485 and how I relate to other people. 128 00:05:45,625 --> 00:05:46,645 So that would be a good one. 129 00:05:47,365 --> 00:05:50,765 - I imagine I, I myself also traveled quite a lot 130 00:05:50,865 --> 00:05:53,245 as a small child, different schools and all of that. 131 00:05:53,945 --> 00:05:55,085 And I know for me, 132 00:05:55,245 --> 00:05:57,845 I imagine this has definitely shaped you into 133 00:05:57,845 --> 00:06:01,845 what would become your career, uh, when a child is in 134 00:06:01,845 --> 00:06:03,045 that sort of environment 135 00:06:03,065 --> 00:06:07,125 and experience, they have to assimilate so quickly 136 00:06:07,545 --> 00:06:08,565 and navigate so quickly 137 00:06:08,705 --> 00:06:12,805 and read people so well for their own wellbeing, safety, 138 00:06:13,395 --> 00:06:14,605 just to assimilate. 139 00:06:15,145 --> 00:06:18,885 I'm sure that that created a lens in your brain, uh, 140 00:06:19,405 --> 00:06:21,725 a filmmaking lens, if you will, 141 00:06:21,725 --> 00:06:24,765 because you had to understand everything going 142 00:06:24,765 --> 00:06:26,165 around at once. 143 00:06:27,325 --> 00:06:30,725 - Absolutely. And I, your point is, I mean, it's so true 144 00:06:30,995 --> 00:06:35,445 that when you move around a lot as a child, you have 145 00:06:35,445 --> 00:06:37,565 to pick up really quickly, and you get used to that. 146 00:06:38,325 --> 00:06:40,125 I think often people will look at it 147 00:06:40,125 --> 00:06:41,765 and they'll go, oh my gosh, how did you manage? 148 00:06:41,875 --> 00:06:46,045 Well, you manage by learning some tools along the way 149 00:06:46,155 --> 00:06:48,765 that I feel have served me my entire life. 150 00:06:49,225 --> 00:06:51,085 So I don't look at this as a bad thing. 151 00:06:51,085 --> 00:06:54,605 Being able to assess situations quickly, being able to 152 00:06:55,155 --> 00:06:56,605 connect with people quickly 153 00:06:56,705 --> 00:07:00,405 and figure out what makes them tick quickly, you know, it's, 154 00:07:00,745 --> 00:07:02,685 to me, it's a skill that I've carried 155 00:07:02,715 --> 00:07:04,125 with me my entire life, 156 00:07:04,905 --> 00:07:08,525 and it's been a way to really learn about diversity 157 00:07:09,545 --> 00:07:14,045 and how people think differently, how people think the same. 158 00:07:14,745 --> 00:07:18,805 And to be able to pick up on that very quickly in a way 159 00:07:18,805 --> 00:07:22,165 that I think it really helps me, it serves me. 160 00:07:22,165 --> 00:07:24,045 And so that serves my career now. 161 00:07:24,115 --> 00:07:26,125 It's always served me in a good way. 162 00:07:27,185 --> 00:07:29,565 - Did you have an idea 163 00:07:29,905 --> 00:07:32,165 of being a filmmaker when you were young? 164 00:07:32,305 --> 00:07:33,485 Did you have a creative family? 165 00:07:33,635 --> 00:07:36,005 Were they supportive of those aspirations? 166 00:07:37,015 --> 00:07:38,805 - Being a filmmaker came to me later, 167 00:07:39,345 --> 00:07:41,405 but I was always very creative 168 00:07:41,745 --> 00:07:43,925 and I was supported in my creativity. 169 00:07:44,105 --> 00:07:46,565 For the mo, for the most part, I'd say it's, um, 170 00:07:47,075 --> 00:07:50,245 it's something that I started at a very, very early age. 171 00:07:50,645 --> 00:07:51,885 I was telling stories, 172 00:07:52,365 --> 00:07:54,365 creating stories when I was very young, 173 00:07:54,505 --> 00:07:55,925 and there are family stories 174 00:07:56,225 --> 00:07:59,645 of me performing when I was very little and charging for it. 175 00:08:00,265 --> 00:08:03,005 So , apparently I would sing songs 176 00:08:03,345 --> 00:08:05,925 and then I'd go, okay, and now I want to get paid for it. 177 00:08:06,035 --> 00:08:07,205 It's like, give me a coin. 178 00:08:07,905 --> 00:08:10,325 So , I don't know where that came from. 179 00:08:10,835 --> 00:08:13,045 - That is hilarious to me. , 180 00:08:13,865 --> 00:08:15,005 - And I was very young, 181 00:08:15,145 --> 00:08:17,725 so this is when I was not much more than a toddler. 182 00:08:18,105 --> 00:08:21,845 So storytelling has always, always been a part of me. 183 00:08:22,485 --> 00:08:26,325 I had my own magazine for a long time between the ages 184 00:08:26,325 --> 00:08:29,125 of eight and 12, I think, you know, 185 00:08:29,305 --> 00:08:32,765 and then I was, I started training as a singer, 186 00:08:32,825 --> 00:08:35,965 as a class classical singer, starting around the age of 12. 187 00:08:36,745 --> 00:08:39,445 So stories have always been a part of me. 188 00:08:39,945 --> 00:08:43,485 And as far as films in the movies go, some 189 00:08:43,485 --> 00:08:48,045 of my earliest impressions of films, they range from, 190 00:08:48,785 --> 00:08:50,125 uh, Charlie Chaplin movies, 191 00:08:50,155 --> 00:08:51,565 because I would sneak away, 192 00:08:51,565 --> 00:08:54,525 there was this small theater in the town where I was born, 193 00:08:55,455 --> 00:08:57,965 where, where I lived when I was very young. 194 00:08:58,145 --> 00:08:59,605 And I'd sneak into that theater. 195 00:08:59,885 --> 00:09:02,805 I, it's, I must have been seven at the time, which is crazy. 196 00:09:03,025 --> 00:09:06,485 But I snuck into that theater afternoon matinees, 197 00:09:06,505 --> 00:09:08,045 and watched Charlie Chaplin movies. 198 00:09:08,665 --> 00:09:11,405 So that came, that became a strong 199 00:09:11,405 --> 00:09:12,925 influence for me in many ways. 200 00:09:13,145 --> 00:09:15,565 And then the other ones that really stood out 201 00:09:15,565 --> 00:09:17,725 for me are the Pippi Longstocking movies 202 00:09:17,915 --> 00:09:19,725 that I think I started watching 203 00:09:20,425 --> 00:09:22,205 in the cinema when I was about four 204 00:09:22,225 --> 00:09:23,525 or five or something like that. 205 00:09:23,585 --> 00:09:27,405 So movies have always been a part of me, 206 00:09:27,435 --> 00:09:31,285 even though I didn't start working as a filmmaker 207 00:09:31,295 --> 00:09:32,645 until much later in life. 208 00:09:33,025 --> 00:09:35,285 But they've always followed me and inspired me. 209 00:09:36,185 --> 00:09:38,765 - Is this what you went to college for then? 210 00:09:38,905 --> 00:09:42,045 Or when you say later in life, what does that mean exactly? 211 00:09:42,635 --> 00:09:45,165 - Well, I went to, uh, college for Communication, 212 00:09:45,985 --> 00:09:48,445 and, uh, so I, I went to school 213 00:09:48,585 --> 00:09:52,005 to study communication first, mass media and communication, 214 00:09:52,305 --> 00:09:54,725 and then international communication, 215 00:09:54,945 --> 00:09:57,805 and then organizational communication, which is my PhD. 216 00:09:58,865 --> 00:10:02,165 And there's a thread here when people ask me 217 00:10:02,165 --> 00:10:03,445 what communication is about, 218 00:10:03,755 --> 00:10:05,125 it's ultimately about storytelling. 219 00:10:05,785 --> 00:10:07,645 So it's about the stories that we tell 220 00:10:07,665 --> 00:10:09,805 and we share each with each other 221 00:10:10,265 --> 00:10:12,845 and what we find, where we find commonality 222 00:10:13,185 --> 00:10:15,885 and difference in those, how we interpret it and so on. 223 00:10:16,385 --> 00:10:18,885 But I didn't study movies specifically. 224 00:10:19,875 --> 00:10:22,765 That being said, when I was working 225 00:10:23,265 --> 00:10:26,645 as an assistant professor at Loyola Marymount, especially, 226 00:10:27,525 --> 00:10:29,445 I was studying films. 227 00:10:29,845 --> 00:10:32,365 I was studying what I consider to be 228 00:10:32,365 --> 00:10:33,685 or calm teen queen movies. 229 00:10:33,985 --> 00:10:38,325 So where you have a story about a teenage girl who 230 00:10:39,195 --> 00:10:42,165 becomes herself, it's a coming of age story, 231 00:10:42,185 --> 00:10:45,325 and usually she finds some kind of career during this, 232 00:10:45,865 --> 00:10:48,485 and she takes over and in one capacity 233 00:10:48,505 --> 00:10:50,245 or another, rules the world. 234 00:10:51,105 --> 00:10:52,605 So if you look back in time, 235 00:10:52,705 --> 00:10:54,605 it would be things like Princess Diaries, 236 00:10:54,615 --> 00:10:56,405 which people still watch, right? 237 00:10:56,425 --> 00:10:58,845 And would be the Hunger Games and those types of stories. 238 00:10:59,465 --> 00:11:01,405 So I got to know those really well 239 00:11:01,545 --> 00:11:03,925 and got a little frustrated with them. 240 00:11:03,925 --> 00:11:08,855 And this is what pushed me over into filmmaking more, is 241 00:11:08,855 --> 00:11:11,535 because I found that it was too, 242 00:11:11,915 --> 00:11:16,535 too often it was happenstance that girls were thrown into it 243 00:11:16,675 --> 00:11:20,415 as opposed to being the drivers of their own journeys 244 00:11:21,355 --> 00:11:25,375 too often, especially in the comedies, that it was easy 245 00:11:25,835 --> 00:11:29,735 to get the career that it's like you get discovered you have 246 00:11:29,735 --> 00:11:33,535 to go through a journey, but you are discovered. 247 00:11:33,635 --> 00:11:35,575 So that was another thing that it wasn't 248 00:11:35,885 --> 00:11:38,775 that you worked hard for a long period of time. 249 00:11:38,775 --> 00:11:40,775 There was usually something else that you had to work on, 250 00:11:40,835 --> 00:11:44,095 but you, innate talent just showed up 251 00:11:44,675 --> 00:11:46,255 and all of a sudden you could do things. 252 00:11:46,435 --> 00:11:47,655 So that would be a second thing. 253 00:11:47,655 --> 00:11:50,775 And then the third thing that drove me crazy was that 254 00:11:51,595 --> 00:11:56,285 the mothers were dead, or they were really flighty, 255 00:11:56,945 --> 00:12:00,725 and they often had, if they were around, 256 00:12:01,555 --> 00:12:05,445 they would have a career that was artistic, 257 00:12:06,025 --> 00:12:08,325 but without having to run a business, which 258 00:12:08,505 --> 00:12:10,085 as an artist, you have to do both. 259 00:12:10,425 --> 00:12:11,965 You have to be very entrepreneurial. 260 00:12:12,505 --> 00:12:15,645 So I got a little frustrated with many of those messages, 261 00:12:15,645 --> 00:12:18,525 and I'm, I'm not pointing to those two films specifically, 262 00:12:18,545 --> 00:12:20,845 but sort of more on a generalized level. 263 00:12:21,585 --> 00:12:24,845 And, um, started to write my own scripts 264 00:12:25,065 --> 00:12:26,925 and was encouraged to write my own scripts. 265 00:12:27,385 --> 00:12:31,805 And then from there, I dove deeper 266 00:12:31,905 --> 00:12:34,445 and deeper into filmmaking as an art 267 00:12:34,505 --> 00:12:35,765 and a form of storytelling, 268 00:12:35,945 --> 00:12:39,205 and as a way of encouraging conversations 269 00:12:40,145 --> 00:12:44,045 and, uh, having the opportunity to, in some ways, 270 00:12:44,325 --> 00:12:46,445 I won't say that necessarily, change the world, 271 00:12:46,445 --> 00:12:49,165 but encouraging people to really think 272 00:12:49,265 --> 00:12:50,725 and change the world as a result. 273 00:12:51,235 --> 00:12:54,805 - What drew you to the subject matter of the Last Witch? 274 00:12:54,905 --> 00:12:57,005 How did you step into that story? 275 00:12:58,035 --> 00:13:02,925 - That story came to me as a surprise, as stories often do. 276 00:13:03,985 --> 00:13:08,365 And the origin starts with Sundance in 2020, 277 00:13:08,695 --> 00:13:12,765 which was pre pandemic and a major super spreader event 278 00:13:12,765 --> 00:13:14,845 because there were people from around the world who came, 279 00:13:15,225 --> 00:13:17,245 and we all stood very close to one another. 280 00:13:17,505 --> 00:13:19,845 And when you get people from around the world 281 00:13:20,145 --> 00:13:22,445 and you're close, you're gonna catch something, 282 00:13:22,445 --> 00:13:24,045 whether it's a cold or something else. 283 00:13:24,705 --> 00:13:27,165 But it turned out that it was the pandemic. 284 00:13:27,785 --> 00:13:30,325 But while I was there at Sundance, 285 00:13:31,005 --> 00:13:34,725 I was in a restroom late at night after an event, 286 00:13:35,385 --> 00:13:37,445 and the faucets were malfunctioning. 287 00:13:37,625 --> 00:13:41,445 And as per usual, I crack a joke and I go, oh, it's magic. 288 00:13:41,445 --> 00:13:45,365 They're coming back on, just as a woman steps out 289 00:13:45,365 --> 00:13:46,765 of a stall going, oh, 290 00:13:46,765 --> 00:13:48,485 and I'm related to one of the witch hunters 291 00:13:48,485 --> 00:13:49,565 from the Salem Witch Trials. 292 00:13:50,385 --> 00:13:54,325 So we end up having a conversation that led 293 00:13:54,345 --> 00:13:58,405 to my doing a lot of research around the trials, thinking 294 00:13:58,405 --> 00:14:00,445 that this could be a great narrative project, 295 00:14:00,545 --> 00:14:02,605 taking a different look at them. 296 00:14:03,145 --> 00:14:05,245 And what's amazing is that there is 297 00:14:05,265 --> 00:14:07,005 so much information available, 298 00:14:07,155 --> 00:14:09,405 including the original court transcripts. 299 00:14:09,945 --> 00:14:13,245 So I was looking through all of this 300 00:14:13,585 --> 00:14:17,325 and following a trail that took me to an article 301 00:14:17,975 --> 00:14:19,685 about a middle school teacher 302 00:14:19,785 --> 00:14:23,605 and her students who were working to exonerate somebody 303 00:14:23,605 --> 00:14:24,605 who was still convicted 304 00:14:24,605 --> 00:14:26,645 of witchcraft from the Salem Witch Trials. 305 00:14:26,785 --> 00:14:29,485 And there was only one person left that was still convicted. 306 00:14:30,225 --> 00:14:31,845 So I thought to myself, 307 00:14:31,845 --> 00:14:34,845 because she was still convicted, so Massachusetts 308 00:14:35,465 --> 00:14:40,125 in 20 20 20 20 21 still had someone from the Salem Witch 309 00:14:40,125 --> 00:14:42,245 trials that was convicted of witchcraft. 310 00:14:42,945 --> 00:14:44,885 And so I thought this is unusual. 311 00:14:45,585 --> 00:14:48,405 Now, parenthetical, there are lots of people 312 00:14:48,405 --> 00:14:51,645 around the world who are still convicted of witchcraft, 313 00:14:52,375 --> 00:14:57,125 sends the era of the witch hunts, the what we look at 314 00:14:57,185 --> 00:14:58,565 as the era of the witch hunts, 315 00:14:58,665 --> 00:15:03,085 and which sent back to the 4 14, 15 hundreds through 316 00:15:04,005 --> 00:15:06,485 17, 18 hundreds and into today. 317 00:15:06,755 --> 00:15:07,925 I'll put that in there as well. 318 00:15:08,785 --> 00:15:12,365 But this court case just seemed to be so unusual 319 00:15:12,365 --> 00:15:15,285 because we hear so much about the Salem Witch trials. 320 00:15:16,225 --> 00:15:17,725 And so I thought to myself, 321 00:15:17,725 --> 00:15:20,005 because it had, she hadn't been cleared yet, 322 00:15:20,475 --> 00:15:23,605 this really might be a documentary as opposed 323 00:15:23,605 --> 00:15:24,605 to a narrative film. 324 00:15:25,305 --> 00:15:27,285 So where does the story wanna take you? 325 00:15:27,825 --> 00:15:30,445 So I called the teacher up 326 00:15:30,585 --> 00:15:35,165 and I talked to the, uh, so her name is Carrie LaPierre, 327 00:15:35,425 --> 00:15:39,685 and I talked with the then state Senator Diana Dilio, 328 00:15:40,225 --> 00:15:42,005 who was spearheading the project 329 00:15:42,005 --> 00:15:44,125 through the Massachusetts legislature. 330 00:15:44,585 --> 00:15:46,245 And I said, are you interested? 331 00:15:46,385 --> 00:15:47,765 And they both kind of looked at me 332 00:15:47,765 --> 00:15:49,365 and they're like, uh, what, you know, 333 00:15:49,525 --> 00:15:50,845 and documentary? 334 00:15:51,795 --> 00:15:53,885 Sure. And I thought to myself 335 00:15:53,885 --> 00:15:55,805 that somebody else must have picked up on this 336 00:15:55,805 --> 00:15:58,125 because it's such an unusual story. 337 00:15:58,795 --> 00:16:01,245 It's one of a kind, but nobody else had. 338 00:16:01,905 --> 00:16:04,285 And so that's really the origin, starting 339 00:16:04,285 --> 00:16:07,805 with those conversations, and then filming the students 340 00:16:07,905 --> 00:16:10,285 and the teacher, and, and it's just taken off from there, 341 00:16:10,985 --> 00:16:15,165 but it's following a moment, following instinct, 342 00:16:15,585 --> 00:16:16,645 and then taking action. 343 00:16:16,745 --> 00:16:18,165 And that's really the origin of it. 344 00:16:18,865 --> 00:16:22,085 - And just to give a little more information on the last 345 00:16:22,085 --> 00:16:25,485 Witch, the, this, this teacher of these kids 346 00:16:26,465 --> 00:16:28,085 and said to the kids, Hey, 347 00:16:28,105 --> 00:16:29,445 do you wanna start researching that? 348 00:16:29,465 --> 00:16:32,205 And they went to the cemetery, is that correct? 349 00:16:32,505 --> 00:16:34,365 - It, it's actually, it's even bigger than that. 350 00:16:34,425 --> 00:16:37,005 So the story itself, just to encapsulate it, 351 00:16:37,195 --> 00:16:39,125 it's a story about a middle school teacher 352 00:16:39,305 --> 00:16:42,645 and her civic student who worked to exonerate 353 00:16:42,835 --> 00:16:46,925 that means clear the name you are no longer guilty of, 354 00:16:47,025 --> 00:16:49,365 but clear the name of Elizabeth Johnson Jr. 355 00:16:49,545 --> 00:16:53,885 Who was convicted of witchcraft in 1693. 356 00:16:54,465 --> 00:16:58,125 She was sentenced to hang, she was day of ex execution 357 00:16:58,745 --> 00:17:01,245 the day before she was sentenced, supposed to be hanging. 358 00:17:01,945 --> 00:17:04,125 So just the day before she was supposed to die, 359 00:17:04,305 --> 00:17:06,085 she got a stay of execution and, 360 00:17:06,225 --> 00:17:09,805 but lived the rest of her life as a convicted witch and, 361 00:17:10,385 --> 00:17:13,405 and within that criminal witchcraft. 362 00:17:13,505 --> 00:17:15,245 And I promised all my witch friends then 363 00:17:15,245 --> 00:17:16,605 to call it criminal witchcraft. 364 00:17:16,865 --> 00:17:20,365 So this case had been ongoing for many, many years. 365 00:17:21,025 --> 00:17:24,645 And then what happened in 2018 is 366 00:17:24,675 --> 00:17:28,325 that the Massachusetts legislature got really frustrated 367 00:17:28,325 --> 00:17:33,085 because people in general and kids that were growing up 368 00:17:33,105 --> 00:17:36,365 and leaving school couldn't tell the difference 369 00:17:36,515 --> 00:17:38,965 between fake news and real news. 370 00:17:39,945 --> 00:17:44,325 And they decided that there is a need for civics education 371 00:17:44,505 --> 00:17:47,125 so that people know how the government works, 372 00:17:47,675 --> 00:17:50,205 that this is a real deficit in society, 373 00:17:50,205 --> 00:17:52,325 that people don't know how things work 374 00:17:52,545 --> 00:17:56,205 and how to participate actively as a citizen. 375 00:17:57,065 --> 00:17:59,125 So they unilaterally 376 00:17:59,545 --> 00:18:02,165 and across the board voted 377 00:18:02,305 --> 00:18:06,045 to implement a civics requirement in the public school 378 00:18:06,065 --> 00:18:10,285 system, so that now all students in the eighth grade have 379 00:18:10,285 --> 00:18:12,525 to take a civics class with an applied project. 380 00:18:13,465 --> 00:18:18,165 So this class came about just as the pandemic took forth. 381 00:18:18,865 --> 00:18:22,005 And so the project came out of that, 382 00:18:22,235 --> 00:18:25,005 that they needed a project that was going to be applied, 383 00:18:25,905 --> 00:18:26,965 an applied project. 384 00:18:27,105 --> 00:18:29,365 So the hands on the kids really got to learn 385 00:18:29,465 --> 00:18:30,525 how government works, 386 00:18:31,345 --> 00:18:33,525 and they needed a project that was going 387 00:18:33,525 --> 00:18:36,565 to be manageable just as the pandemic hit, 388 00:18:36,565 --> 00:18:38,765 because they, they were split. 389 00:18:38,825 --> 00:18:42,605 So 50 50 kids were working at home or kids coming to school. 390 00:18:43,665 --> 00:18:45,885 So that's really how the project came about. 391 00:18:46,785 --> 00:18:48,805 And the rest is history in some ways. 392 00:18:48,945 --> 00:18:53,725 But we went to visit them in, let's see, in May 393 00:18:53,725 --> 00:18:54,885 of 2022. 394 00:18:55,545 --> 00:18:57,285 And that's where we filmed them 395 00:18:57,545 --> 00:18:59,445 as they were working in the classroom. 396 00:18:59,955 --> 00:19:04,605 They had a visit from Senator, then again, Senator Dilio, 397 00:19:04,815 --> 00:19:05,885 she's now the state auditor. 398 00:19:06,145 --> 00:19:09,525 So that's why I'm saying then Senator Dilio, uh, 399 00:19:09,865 --> 00:19:13,085 and the kids had an opportunity to visit the cemetery, 400 00:19:13,425 --> 00:19:14,485 the local cemetery. 401 00:19:15,505 --> 00:19:16,845 The, uh, let's see, 402 00:19:16,845 --> 00:19:19,925 it's the old burial ground in North Andover, Massachusetts, 403 00:19:20,655 --> 00:19:23,245 where people from the era are buried. 404 00:19:23,865 --> 00:19:26,165 But what the kids discovered there, 405 00:19:26,345 --> 00:19:27,765 and this is really important, is 406 00:19:27,765 --> 00:19:29,725 that Elizabeth was not buried there. 407 00:19:30,465 --> 00:19:35,365 And the reason why a also discovered and were shocked at is 408 00:19:35,365 --> 00:19:37,885 because she was convicted as a witch, 409 00:19:38,625 --> 00:19:41,565 and witches could not be buried on hallowed ground. 410 00:19:42,265 --> 00:19:46,165 So for the kids to realize that she was not buried 411 00:19:46,195 --> 00:19:48,485 with her family was 412 00:19:49,205 --> 00:19:51,285 profound, and it changed them. 413 00:19:52,105 --> 00:19:54,325 So we followed that transformation 414 00:19:54,325 --> 00:19:56,005 with the kids when we went there 415 00:19:56,425 --> 00:19:58,765 and have continued to follow them since. 416 00:19:59,435 --> 00:20:03,485 - What an incredible story. I'm just so taken by it. Now. 417 00:20:03,505 --> 00:20:05,485 You mentioned that you have witches, 418 00:20:05,635 --> 00:20:07,085 current witches who are friends. 419 00:20:07,225 --> 00:20:09,725 How are they, how do they feel about this project and, 420 00:20:09,865 --> 00:20:11,485 and even the history of it? 421 00:20:12,085 --> 00:20:15,365 I, I think that, that the title Witch is an easy moniker 422 00:20:15,365 --> 00:20:18,405 to throw on any strong woman who speaks her mind 423 00:20:18,505 --> 00:20:21,045 or knows how to heal herself without 424 00:20:22,125 --> 00:20:24,085 whatever the modern medicine of the day is. 425 00:20:24,635 --> 00:20:26,205 - It's, that's a really good question. 426 00:20:26,585 --> 00:20:29,405 And, and we do bring up the question. So what is a witch? 427 00:20:29,665 --> 00:20:33,365 And, uh, how are we using the moniker witch today? 428 00:20:33,425 --> 00:20:34,845 So I'm very careful about 429 00:20:36,175 --> 00:20:41,005 using it when people self-identify as witches, as opposed 430 00:20:41,105 --> 00:20:44,245 to using it as a label to, um, to somebody 431 00:20:44,315 --> 00:20:46,685 that I don't know how they see themselves. 432 00:20:46,755 --> 00:20:48,005 It's very contestable. 433 00:20:48,705 --> 00:20:51,445 And it's interesting to talk to the people, 434 00:20:51,475 --> 00:20:54,685 various people in this documentary about what is the meaning 435 00:20:54,685 --> 00:20:57,405 of the witch, because we talk with historians, we talk 436 00:20:57,405 --> 00:21:01,205 with politicians, we talk with, um, obviously the kids 437 00:21:01,305 --> 00:21:03,805 and teachers and parents, and a lot of people. 438 00:21:04,545 --> 00:21:07,645 And we also talk to modern day witches 439 00:21:07,825 --> 00:21:09,605 who self-identify as such. 440 00:21:10,345 --> 00:21:14,165 And in general, this project has been very well received. 441 00:21:14,875 --> 00:21:19,165 They themselves do not consider themselves to be in any way, 442 00:21:19,165 --> 00:21:20,525 shape, or form criminal. 443 00:21:20,755 --> 00:21:24,445 They consider themselves as healers in many ways, 444 00:21:25,305 --> 00:21:29,365 and both for themselves, for other people in society. 445 00:21:29,465 --> 00:21:31,405 And like you mentioned, healing in ways 446 00:21:31,405 --> 00:21:32,805 that modern medicine may 447 00:21:32,805 --> 00:21:35,045 or may not be able to help out with, 448 00:21:35,425 --> 00:21:39,725 but also to recognize when modern medicine is the way to go. 449 00:21:39,945 --> 00:21:41,685 And of course, in the 16 hundreds, 450 00:21:41,745 --> 00:21:43,285 we did not have modern medicine. 451 00:21:43,425 --> 00:21:45,685 So, and a lot of diagnosis did not exist then. 452 00:21:45,825 --> 00:21:49,405 - But those women and men who identified in that way, 453 00:21:49,545 --> 00:21:51,445 or had that name thrust upon them, 454 00:21:51,675 --> 00:21:54,685 were probably well versed in herbs 455 00:21:54,865 --> 00:21:57,005 and certain home remedies 456 00:21:57,005 --> 00:22:00,365 and things like that, that when you could cure something 457 00:22:00,365 --> 00:22:03,405 without throwing a on it, that was suspicious . 458 00:22:04,425 --> 00:22:06,045 Not to mention the carrot on the nose. 459 00:22:06,325 --> 00:22:07,925 I mean, that's a dead giveaway. , 460 00:22:08,455 --> 00:22:09,455 - Right? 461 00:22:09,455 --> 00:22:10,245 The carrot on the nose and the stories 462 00:22:10,275 --> 00:22:11,645 that come from that era. 463 00:22:11,995 --> 00:22:13,365 Many things that we still do today. 464 00:22:13,425 --> 00:22:15,165 So I have to keep that in there as well. 465 00:22:15,785 --> 00:22:18,885 The way that people looked at what, which was 466 00:22:19,185 --> 00:22:22,485 or was not back then is different from how we look at 467 00:22:22,485 --> 00:22:24,125 what a witch is or is not. 468 00:22:24,415 --> 00:22:27,125 Today. Witches have existed, 469 00:22:27,585 --> 00:22:31,325 and the idea of a witch have existed since, I don't know, 470 00:22:31,335 --> 00:22:33,965 since time began in one way or another. 471 00:22:34,085 --> 00:22:37,285 I think it's that ancient, back in that day, 472 00:22:38,105 --> 00:22:41,005 people were looking at witches as somebody 473 00:22:41,005 --> 00:22:44,285 that had sold their soul to the devil, pretty much. 474 00:22:44,425 --> 00:22:47,285 And those, so those are the ones that are being accused 475 00:22:47,505 --> 00:22:48,845 of witchcraft. 476 00:22:49,475 --> 00:22:53,525 They are the ones that are being accused of using their soul 477 00:22:53,585 --> 00:22:57,205 or their ghost to attack other people in 478 00:22:58,065 --> 00:22:59,805 cohort with the devil. 479 00:23:00,265 --> 00:23:03,405 So they've given the devil permission to use your soul 480 00:23:03,505 --> 00:23:06,885 to hurt and maim other people, even to kill other people. 481 00:23:07,505 --> 00:23:11,045 So this back in the day, was a criminal offense. 482 00:23:11,145 --> 00:23:13,765 It was the worst of the worst that you could 483 00:23:14,325 --> 00:23:15,565 possibly imagine. 484 00:23:16,425 --> 00:23:19,645 And today, you might compare it to a terrorist more or less. 485 00:23:19,865 --> 00:23:22,605 So you can imagine people back then thinking about, 486 00:23:22,745 --> 00:23:24,245 I'm walking down the street and there's 487 00:23:24,245 --> 00:23:25,565 a terrorist right next to me. 488 00:23:26,285 --> 00:23:27,605 I don't know who's a terrorist. 489 00:23:27,865 --> 00:23:29,725 It could be my neighbor, could be anybody. 490 00:23:30,425 --> 00:23:31,525 But that was the feeling 491 00:23:31,525 --> 00:23:34,165 that you didn't know when you were gonna be attacked 492 00:23:34,265 --> 00:23:36,405 by somebody else's specter or ghost. 493 00:23:36,875 --> 00:23:40,205 They didn't have the same kind of medicine that we do today. 494 00:23:41,015 --> 00:23:45,925 Their ministers would be, a reverence would be 495 00:23:46,385 --> 00:23:49,845 as much somebody that would be a healer 496 00:23:50,105 --> 00:23:52,925 and a physical healer as somebody that 497 00:23:53,675 --> 00:23:55,285 weekday would consider to be a doctor. 498 00:23:56,105 --> 00:23:58,925 You would have people that were tailors 499 00:23:58,925 --> 00:24:00,805 that would be considered to be healers 500 00:24:00,805 --> 00:24:02,245 because they could stitch people up. 501 00:24:02,245 --> 00:24:04,125 They knew how to stitch things, you know, things like that, 502 00:24:04,125 --> 00:24:06,005 that we don't even stop to think about today. 503 00:24:06,635 --> 00:24:10,045 They also had a lot of folk magic back then, 504 00:24:10,105 --> 00:24:13,045 but nobody would talk about it as full magic, folk magic. 505 00:24:13,585 --> 00:24:16,085 And then you have the interestes between these two, 506 00:24:16,175 --> 00:24:17,765 which there is a blurring 507 00:24:17,765 --> 00:24:20,045 of lines when you start to look at it. 508 00:24:20,875 --> 00:24:24,565 What I always think about when I look back at 509 00:24:24,635 --> 00:24:28,165 what they were doing and using as folk magic back then, 510 00:24:29,655 --> 00:24:32,365 we're doing and using a lot of that today, 511 00:24:32,865 --> 00:24:37,805 and many of the people that were accused, convicted, 512 00:24:38,305 --> 00:24:42,485 and even hanged were, we're using some of the same 513 00:24:43,175 --> 00:24:45,125 tools that people use today. 514 00:24:45,905 --> 00:24:48,285 For example, astrology, right? 515 00:24:49,235 --> 00:24:51,685 Back in the day, they used the almanac, 516 00:24:52,545 --> 00:24:55,005 and the almanac was based on astrology. 517 00:24:55,345 --> 00:24:59,005 So they predicted the weather for an entire year ahead 518 00:24:59,535 --> 00:25:01,685 based on the constellations in the heavens. 519 00:25:02,545 --> 00:25:04,685 People use astrology today. 520 00:25:05,345 --> 00:25:09,565 So those kinds of things, fortune tellers people back then, 521 00:25:10,065 --> 00:25:14,565 one of the men who hanged Samuel Wardwell was known 522 00:25:14,585 --> 00:25:17,965 as a local fortune teller, and who often was, right. 523 00:25:18,625 --> 00:25:21,765 So he, his predictions would come true today, a lot 524 00:25:21,765 --> 00:25:23,165 of people go to psychics. 525 00:25:23,515 --> 00:25:25,605 It's a booming, burgeoning industry. 526 00:25:25,635 --> 00:25:29,325 Many people have crystals at home as talismans 527 00:25:29,425 --> 00:25:32,645 of various things, good things, ways to find strength, 528 00:25:33,125 --> 00:25:37,525 whatever it is that we experience with items like that, 529 00:25:38,195 --> 00:25:41,325 they would've used some something similar back then. 530 00:25:41,325 --> 00:25:43,925 Perhaps if we are looking at the magic part of it, 531 00:25:44,135 --> 00:25:46,405 we're using the same magic as we did then. 532 00:25:46,665 --> 00:25:49,125 So where do we draw some of these lines? We 533 00:25:49,485 --> 00:25:51,405 - Manifest, we built vision boards. 534 00:25:51,705 --> 00:25:54,405 The modern medicine of today is a derivative 535 00:25:54,465 --> 00:25:57,965 of much plant medicine that's been processed 536 00:25:58,025 --> 00:26:01,485 and deconstructed and then reconstructed for profit. 537 00:26:01,775 --> 00:26:03,565 We're told dandelions are a weed, 538 00:26:03,635 --> 00:26:06,125 when in fact they have great healing property. 539 00:26:06,465 --> 00:26:09,685 Was she one of the young women who had ergot poisoning? 540 00:26:09,745 --> 00:26:11,645 Is that, was that, was she in that group? 541 00:26:12,715 --> 00:26:15,645 - Well, ergo poisoning is actually, that's a myth. 542 00:26:16,265 --> 00:26:18,845 - Oh, - It is. That's been, that's been disproven. Yeah. 543 00:26:18,865 --> 00:26:20,365 It was not ergot poisoning. 544 00:26:20,575 --> 00:26:23,245 There are still questions about what happened and why, 545 00:26:23,385 --> 00:26:27,165 but that particular one is really off the table. 546 00:26:27,275 --> 00:26:31,125 It's, it's more about mass hysteria, the situation 547 00:26:31,125 --> 00:26:32,485 that they were in. 548 00:26:33,715 --> 00:26:36,285 They were in the middle of a perfect storm. 549 00:26:36,705 --> 00:26:39,725 And so to say that it's just a one thing. 550 00:26:40,725 --> 00:26:43,045 I think personally, having studied this quite a bit now, 551 00:26:43,365 --> 00:26:45,085 I wouldn't point a finger at the one thing. 552 00:26:45,585 --> 00:26:48,165 Mm, it's, it was at a time when 553 00:26:49,035 --> 00:26:53,405 Massachusetts had been a colony for some time. 554 00:26:54,055 --> 00:26:57,445 We're talking about third generation people at this point in 555 00:26:57,445 --> 00:27:01,205 some cases, and community of about somewhere between three 556 00:27:01,485 --> 00:27:02,485 and 5,000 people. 557 00:27:02,945 --> 00:27:04,245 People were traveling back 558 00:27:04,245 --> 00:27:08,285 and forth between the us what is now the United States. 559 00:27:08,345 --> 00:27:10,365 So it should be the Massachusetts colony 560 00:27:10,665 --> 00:27:12,245 and England, not everybody, 561 00:27:12,425 --> 00:27:13,965 but there were people who could travel. 562 00:27:14,105 --> 00:27:15,325 It would take a couple of months, 563 00:27:15,545 --> 00:27:18,245 but there was an exchange of information. 564 00:27:19,225 --> 00:27:23,525 It was also a time when the charter for the state, 565 00:27:23,705 --> 00:27:25,485 the colony had been revoked. 566 00:27:26,065 --> 00:27:27,245 So there were no laws. 567 00:27:27,945 --> 00:27:31,925 It was a time when there were a lot of wars going on 568 00:27:31,925 --> 00:27:34,885 around them, both with Native Americans 569 00:27:35,185 --> 00:27:39,085 and by then most of the native, the wars who the Native 570 00:27:39,725 --> 00:27:42,165 Americans had filtered out in the area, 571 00:27:42,545 --> 00:27:45,205 but they were still going on, not too far away. 572 00:27:46,035 --> 00:27:49,175 And with that, a lot of people that were there at the time 573 00:27:49,715 --> 00:27:52,175 had PTSD from wars, from attacks. 574 00:27:52,875 --> 00:27:56,295 It was a time when people were still, 575 00:27:57,215 --> 00:27:59,575 families were still getting used to a different climate. 576 00:28:00,395 --> 00:28:03,375 So at the time, they had very, very cold winters 577 00:28:03,795 --> 00:28:07,375 and hot summers, so the temperatures would fluctuate. 578 00:28:07,835 --> 00:28:09,175 So let's keep that in mind. 579 00:28:09,555 --> 00:28:10,775 So all of those things, 580 00:28:10,995 --> 00:28:14,975 and it's still a community at this time, the Puritans were 581 00:28:15,695 --> 00:28:19,135 starting to have to revisit their way of thinking. 582 00:28:19,195 --> 00:28:23,215 The idea that they came to this area to live a pure life 583 00:28:23,915 --> 00:28:27,695 and to live consistently, just by the word of the Bible, 584 00:28:28,125 --> 00:28:31,255 when there were also other communities coming in the, 585 00:28:31,465 --> 00:28:34,375 there were quite a few Quakers, for example, in the area. 586 00:28:35,195 --> 00:28:36,855 So that was happening. 587 00:28:37,225 --> 00:28:39,855 There was a question of economics, certainly 588 00:28:39,855 --> 00:28:43,535 that's a big one, that there were factions in the 589 00:28:43,535 --> 00:28:47,055 communities that were starting to figure out who's in charge 590 00:28:47,115 --> 00:28:49,255 and who's in control, who's in power. 591 00:28:49,825 --> 00:28:54,735 There are definitely questions about women and women's role 592 00:28:54,735 --> 00:28:59,055 because it was a very patriarchal society at the time. 593 00:28:59,235 --> 00:29:02,095 And so there is no surprise that was . 594 00:29:02,405 --> 00:29:05,255 Yeah, well, exactly was it was. Well, you know, there. 595 00:29:05,435 --> 00:29:06,895 But there are places in this world 596 00:29:06,895 --> 00:29:08,215 that are a little bit more matriarchal 597 00:29:08,215 --> 00:29:09,695 and we, we can find balance. 598 00:29:09,725 --> 00:29:11,415 That would be a good thing. Yeah. 599 00:29:11,675 --> 00:29:15,815 You know, all of these things coming together really just 600 00:29:15,925 --> 00:29:17,615 made for, it's a perfect storm. 601 00:29:17,765 --> 00:29:18,855 Yeah. So, yeah. 602 00:29:19,075 --> 00:29:21,295 And teenagers, am I right, , 603 00:29:21,635 --> 00:29:23,055 oh my gosh, these teenagers. 604 00:29:23,055 --> 00:29:24,575 That's actually one of the fun things 605 00:29:24,605 --> 00:29:26,015 that I've kept reading about, 606 00:29:26,115 --> 00:29:27,415 and I've put into this as well. 607 00:29:27,815 --> 00:29:31,735 Teenagers, there was an ordinance in town that was passed, 608 00:29:31,935 --> 00:29:34,495 I think the year before to say that the kids had to come 609 00:29:34,495 --> 00:29:36,455 to church because they were, and they had to be quiet 610 00:29:36,455 --> 00:29:37,855 because they were getting too rowdy. 611 00:29:38,595 --> 00:29:41,135 And I'm looking at some of these stories going, 612 00:29:41,765 --> 00:29:43,525 somebody borrowed dad's mom 613 00:29:43,525 --> 00:29:46,845 and dad's horse to ride next door to somebody 614 00:29:46,845 --> 00:29:48,605 where they were drinking apple cider 615 00:29:48,835 --> 00:29:51,325 because that was, the water wasn't that great. 616 00:29:51,345 --> 00:29:52,685 So they all made apple cider. 617 00:29:52,705 --> 00:29:54,845 So they'd had a little bit too much apple cider. 618 00:29:55,035 --> 00:29:57,805 They ride mom and dad's horse back through the forest 619 00:29:58,105 --> 00:30:00,245 and something happens, they fall off the horse 620 00:30:00,425 --> 00:30:03,005 and voila, stories happen. 621 00:30:03,225 --> 00:30:05,845 You know? So there are definitely teenage stories 622 00:30:05,845 --> 00:30:07,085 that are part of this as well. 623 00:30:08,355 --> 00:30:12,125 - It's just funny to think of 16 hundreds, CERs , 624 00:30:12,495 --> 00:30:14,885 - Right? You crash, 625 00:30:15,145 --> 00:30:16,145 - You crash. 626 00:30:16,145 --> 00:30:17,405 Mom's horse man, . 627 00:30:18,065 --> 00:30:20,045 - That's the image I have to get 628 00:30:20,045 --> 00:30:21,365 that image every now and then. 629 00:30:21,365 --> 00:30:23,605 When I read some of these stories, it's, 630 00:30:24,085 --> 00:30:26,965 I kids were kids then, just as kids are kids now. 631 00:30:27,035 --> 00:30:29,165 Even though their culture was a bit different. 632 00:30:29,945 --> 00:30:32,885 And you've got hormones popping and all sorts of things. 633 00:30:32,985 --> 00:30:34,445 So, you know, oh yeah, 634 00:30:34,905 --> 00:30:37,885 - It would be interesting to look at the correlation between 635 00:30:39,145 --> 00:30:41,725 how teenagers were behaving in that time, 636 00:30:41,785 --> 00:30:43,605 and then the witch accusations, 637 00:30:43,785 --> 00:30:46,125 and then the Poltergeist activity around 638 00:30:46,715 --> 00:30:48,485 more modern day teenagers 639 00:30:48,665 --> 00:30:53,465 and that intense, energetic, uh, field, I guess, for lack 640 00:30:53,465 --> 00:30:56,145 of a better word, that even science says, yeah, 641 00:30:56,665 --> 00:30:59,505 teenagers make so much kinetic energy 642 00:31:00,095 --> 00:31:02,465 that it bursts out into a room 643 00:31:02,465 --> 00:31:04,985 and knocks over a lamp, which is to me, 644 00:31:05,125 --> 00:31:06,985 so mind blowing, but fascinating 645 00:31:07,485 --> 00:31:08,485 - For sure. 646 00:31:08,485 --> 00:31:11,065 You know, there's so much that we can look at and, 647 00:31:11,685 --> 00:31:13,105 and I really learn from this. 648 00:31:13,525 --> 00:31:16,065 It strikes me that we haven't learned it, that we've kind 649 00:31:16,065 --> 00:31:18,825 of pushed this aside as a fairy tale in many ways. 650 00:31:19,645 --> 00:31:22,025 And I think we have a lot to learn. 651 00:31:22,145 --> 00:31:24,065 I mean, the teenage thing that you're talking about, I think 652 00:31:24,065 --> 00:31:25,665 that's incredibly fascinating 653 00:31:25,665 --> 00:31:27,705 because so many teenagers, 654 00:31:27,705 --> 00:31:32,145 adolescents were involved in the trials, whether as accusers 655 00:31:32,725 --> 00:31:35,705 or as victims or whatever. 656 00:31:35,725 --> 00:31:38,945 It was, adding gossip to that, think back 657 00:31:38,945 --> 00:31:40,225 to the teenage years and 658 00:31:40,325 --> 00:31:42,705 how fragile we all were at that age. 659 00:31:43,405 --> 00:31:46,785 And you can't take that out of this story entirely. 660 00:31:47,255 --> 00:31:48,905 It's not just about teenagers, 661 00:31:49,045 --> 00:31:50,825 but they definitely play a big part. 662 00:31:51,685 --> 00:31:54,065 - How many died in the Salem Witch trials? 663 00:31:55,925 --> 00:31:58,785 - How many people were executed? 664 00:31:59,035 --> 00:32:00,945 Let's see, I believe it was 21. 665 00:32:01,045 --> 00:32:02,225 And don't quote me on it 666 00:32:02,225 --> 00:32:04,705 because I don't have my, those notes right in front of me. 667 00:32:05,245 --> 00:32:08,105 Uh, one, most of them were hanged. 668 00:32:08,885 --> 00:32:13,145 Uh, one man was pressed to death, and, 669 00:32:14,845 --> 00:32:18,425 but these are the ones that are executed 670 00:32:19,765 --> 00:32:21,705 as a result, direct result. 671 00:32:21,725 --> 00:32:22,905 But then there were five 672 00:32:22,925 --> 00:32:24,345 or six people at least that would know of 673 00:32:24,345 --> 00:32:25,705 who died in the jails. 674 00:32:27,055 --> 00:32:28,625 They had to build the jails 675 00:32:28,625 --> 00:32:30,305 because there were no jails at the time. 676 00:32:31,415 --> 00:32:34,675 And those were pretty much just thrown together. 677 00:32:35,375 --> 00:32:36,715 So a lot of people 678 00:32:36,815 --> 00:32:40,485 who lived in poorly constructed buildings very 679 00:32:40,515 --> 00:32:41,685 tightly put together. 680 00:32:41,835 --> 00:32:45,485 They were wearing, many of them were wearing chains, uh, 681 00:32:45,515 --> 00:32:48,365 iron chains to keep their spectras from flying 682 00:32:48,395 --> 00:32:50,365 away and hurting people. 683 00:32:50,905 --> 00:32:53,525 And, uh, they would be a rat infested. 684 00:32:53,775 --> 00:32:54,925 There would be disease. 685 00:32:55,905 --> 00:32:58,245 You would get the kind of food, the kind 686 00:32:58,245 --> 00:32:59,725 of keep that you could afford. 687 00:33:00,105 --> 00:33:02,965 So you can imagine the conditions that were there. 688 00:33:03,025 --> 00:33:05,645 So we do know that several people died as a result 689 00:33:05,645 --> 00:33:06,805 of that incarceration. 690 00:33:07,705 --> 00:33:12,165 The, uh, execution method that was most commonly used. 691 00:33:12,465 --> 00:33:15,125 People think of this as burning, which is at the stake, 692 00:33:15,865 --> 00:33:20,705 and have this image of that being a relatively 693 00:33:21,635 --> 00:33:24,785 quick death, or they ha they get the sense that 694 00:33:25,365 --> 00:33:26,625 people would be hanged 695 00:33:26,625 --> 00:33:30,345 and we get this image of the news dropping and you're gone. 696 00:33:30,765 --> 00:33:31,825 That's not the case. 697 00:33:32,965 --> 00:33:36,305 In this case, this was what's known as a short drop, 698 00:33:36,795 --> 00:33:40,305 which meant that you dropped just a little bit 699 00:33:41,085 --> 00:33:43,905 and you would hang there until you suffocated and died. 700 00:33:44,295 --> 00:33:45,585 - They call it the devil's dance. 701 00:33:45,905 --> 00:33:47,305 'cause your legs kick around and 702 00:33:47,815 --> 00:33:48,815 - Yeah. 703 00:33:48,815 --> 00:33:49,745 - Yeah. - And for, 704 00:33:49,745 --> 00:33:52,145 and for a long period of time, I mean, it could take an hour 705 00:33:52,525 --> 00:33:54,265 and even longer for somebody to die. 706 00:33:54,965 --> 00:33:57,265 So it was painful, a slow, 707 00:33:57,335 --> 00:34:00,145 painful death while people were watching you. 708 00:34:01,005 --> 00:34:03,945 So you can just imagine. It's absolutely horrific. 709 00:34:04,165 --> 00:34:06,065 And that's something that I don't think 710 00:34:06,645 --> 00:34:09,465 we recognize enough when we honor these people. 711 00:34:09,655 --> 00:34:12,785 It's just pain, the torture they had to go through. 712 00:34:14,615 --> 00:34:16,665 - This is the problem with religious fervor. 713 00:34:17,395 --> 00:34:20,465 Every time I see any explosion of that, 714 00:34:20,585 --> 00:34:21,785 I get incredibly nervous. 715 00:34:22,605 --> 00:34:25,625 One minute it's a witch, the next minute it's a trans person 716 00:34:26,285 --> 00:34:28,625 or a civil rights leader, 717 00:34:28,845 --> 00:34:30,905 or a, you know, you just go down the line. 718 00:34:31,515 --> 00:34:33,625 Those who have been murdered in the name 719 00:34:33,625 --> 00:34:36,145 of a religious fever. 720 00:34:36,605 --> 00:34:37,865 - Mm-Hmm. . - Yeah, 721 00:34:38,585 --> 00:34:39,585 - Absolutely. 722 00:34:39,585 --> 00:34:40,105 And I, you're so right. 723 00:34:40,245 --> 00:34:42,905 Be, and it's not just about one kind of religion 724 00:34:43,045 --> 00:34:44,065 or one denomination. 725 00:34:44,485 --> 00:34:49,185 You see that in every religion, every denomination. It's 726 00:34:49,225 --> 00:34:50,225 - Humankind. 727 00:34:50,225 --> 00:34:51,825 They just use religion as their back. 728 00:34:52,135 --> 00:34:53,425 They hide behind the religion. 729 00:34:53,525 --> 00:34:55,825 But it's really about what's in people's hearts. I think. 730 00:34:56,495 --> 00:34:59,065 - Exactly what people are afraid of. Yeah. 731 00:34:59,455 --> 00:35:01,305 What they're afraid of for themselves 732 00:35:01,645 --> 00:35:05,545 and, uh, what they're not willing to face about themselves. 733 00:35:06,105 --> 00:35:08,465 - I agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. 734 00:35:09,375 --> 00:35:11,025 What is the plan with the film? 735 00:35:11,655 --> 00:35:14,865 - It's very exciting. We are going to be filming again. 736 00:35:14,995 --> 00:35:17,425 We're not done filming. So let me underscore that. 737 00:35:17,435 --> 00:35:19,025 We've filmed three times so far. 738 00:35:19,795 --> 00:35:23,025 We've filmed the time that I mentioned back in 2022. 739 00:35:23,375 --> 00:35:27,705 Then we went back again in 2023 to revisit with some 740 00:35:27,705 --> 00:35:30,865 of the students and the Carrie, the teacher, 741 00:35:31,125 --> 00:35:33,985 and with some of the, uh, the other people 742 00:35:33,985 --> 00:35:35,865 that we've already interviewed, historians 743 00:35:36,045 --> 00:35:40,405 and politicians, we interviewed, um, now state auditor, 744 00:35:40,735 --> 00:35:44,165 Diana Dilio again, to get her perspective a year later. 745 00:35:44,635 --> 00:35:48,405 Elizabeth was exonerated in July of 2022. 746 00:35:48,505 --> 00:35:52,885 So now we're 2023. So how is this impacting society? 747 00:35:52,905 --> 00:35:53,965 Is there really the big question? 748 00:35:54,785 --> 00:35:57,965 And, um, we got some early answers to that. 749 00:35:58,395 --> 00:36:01,125 It's impacting us women's rights. 750 00:36:01,235 --> 00:36:03,365 It's impacting civic participation. 751 00:36:04,235 --> 00:36:07,245 It's impacting on how we view mental health. 752 00:36:07,995 --> 00:36:11,405 It's, it's actually, it's a fairly long list of questions 753 00:36:11,425 --> 00:36:13,885 and issues that we can point to diversity, 754 00:36:14,825 --> 00:36:16,245 how we're treating each other, 755 00:36:16,625 --> 00:36:17,925 how we're bullying each other. 756 00:36:18,305 --> 00:36:20,325 All of those questions are coming up in this. 757 00:36:20,835 --> 00:36:24,165 Then we filmed again during Halloween in Salem, 758 00:36:24,165 --> 00:36:27,365 because that is a big holiday tradition there. 759 00:36:27,425 --> 00:36:30,685 Now. Salem has come 180 , 180 degrees 760 00:36:30,985 --> 00:36:34,885 and now celebrates people who identify as witches. 761 00:36:34,885 --> 00:36:37,205 People who feel a bit different can find a 762 00:36:37,205 --> 00:36:38,605 home in that community. 763 00:36:39,215 --> 00:36:43,765 We're going back again in August to film more. 764 00:36:44,025 --> 00:36:46,925 Uh, we're going to be filming at the Peabody Essex Museum 765 00:36:47,185 --> 00:36:50,565 and is the intent where they have a huge exhibit 766 00:36:50,625 --> 00:36:54,325 that's opening up on July the sixth about the Salem Witch 767 00:36:54,325 --> 00:36:56,445 trials and a few more things. 768 00:36:56,865 --> 00:36:58,565 So meanwhile, uh, we've, 769 00:36:58,905 --> 00:37:01,165 or I, as the writer director, 770 00:37:01,355 --> 00:37:03,565 have been working on taking all these pieces 771 00:37:03,705 --> 00:37:07,485 to create a story so that we have a journey 772 00:37:07,625 --> 00:37:10,925 to take people on, not just about the court case, 773 00:37:10,945 --> 00:37:12,005 but what does this mean 774 00:37:12,065 --> 00:37:14,805 and what does it mean in terms of claiming your voice? 775 00:37:15,665 --> 00:37:18,645 And one of the ways that we're going to be showing that is 776 00:37:19,555 --> 00:37:22,605 when we have the film just a little bit further along, 777 00:37:22,975 --> 00:37:24,725 we're going to be filming a reenactment 778 00:37:24,745 --> 00:37:29,645 of Elizabeth's original court hearing so that we get 779 00:37:29,645 --> 00:37:32,325 to hear her voice and we get to hear her words. 780 00:37:32,625 --> 00:37:34,565 And she gets to claim her own voice 781 00:37:34,705 --> 00:37:37,885 and help us to listen to what she has to say, what she had 782 00:37:37,885 --> 00:37:40,605 to say then, and what she has to say now. 783 00:37:41,035 --> 00:37:44,565 Because she, like all of us, does need 784 00:37:45,145 --> 00:37:46,805 and deserve to be heard. 785 00:37:47,425 --> 00:37:48,965 And it's not until we speak up 786 00:37:48,965 --> 00:37:50,645 and we listen to those voices 787 00:37:50,795 --> 00:37:52,445 that we can really learn from them 788 00:37:53,065 --> 00:37:55,005 and make a difference in our own lives. 789 00:37:55,785 --> 00:38:00,565 So that's what's next for making this film become a reality. 790 00:38:00,585 --> 00:38:03,445 And then from there, we'll get to distribution so 791 00:38:03,445 --> 00:38:05,805 that everybody gets to see it cannot wait. 792 00:38:05,985 --> 00:38:07,165 That's the, that's the big part. 793 00:38:07,225 --> 00:38:08,845 And of course we're fundraising, 794 00:38:08,905 --> 00:38:11,445 so fundraising like crazy to get this done. 795 00:38:11,465 --> 00:38:12,805 So I have to mention that as well. 796 00:38:12,805 --> 00:38:14,365 That's the other big part, 797 00:38:14,365 --> 00:38:18,245 because it's not just about making a film, a film like this 798 00:38:18,385 --> 00:38:21,285 and to do it well does cost a lot of money to make, 799 00:38:21,805 --> 00:38:23,725 I want this to be the kind of film, 800 00:38:23,725 --> 00:38:24,965 like you said at the beginning, 801 00:38:25,475 --> 00:38:27,765 that people would wanna talk about and wanna come 802 00:38:27,765 --> 00:38:29,005 and see and go, have you seen it? 803 00:38:29,005 --> 00:38:30,925 Have you seen it? Have you seen it? I gotta see it. 804 00:38:31,185 --> 00:38:33,845 You know? And in order to do that, we have to do a good job, 805 00:38:34,015 --> 00:38:36,045 which does require a lot of funds. 806 00:38:36,705 --> 00:38:37,805 So a big part 807 00:38:37,805 --> 00:38:42,125 of my work right now is raising a lot of money 808 00:38:42,625 --> 00:38:46,005 to bring people into this community that's making the film. 809 00:38:46,485 --> 00:38:47,805 'cause it's a community film. 810 00:38:48,185 --> 00:38:49,565 - And they can do that through the website. 811 00:38:50,035 --> 00:38:51,365 - They can do that through the website. 812 00:38:51,785 --> 00:38:54,645 So they can go to our website, sign up for our newsletter, 813 00:38:54,895 --> 00:38:57,605 which we give updates on a regular basis. 814 00:38:57,745 --> 00:38:59,765 And it's gonna be exciting 'cause we're gonna be filming. 815 00:38:59,865 --> 00:39:01,765 So there'll be a lot of, a lot of updates. 816 00:39:02,265 --> 00:39:04,205 And that will also take you to 817 00:39:04,775 --> 00:39:06,725 where you can contribute funds. 818 00:39:07,285 --> 00:39:09,645 I always say it's like whether you have $5 819 00:39:09,705 --> 00:39:12,325 or $500,000 to contribute to this, 820 00:39:13,225 --> 00:39:15,125 you are part of our community. Yeah, 821 00:39:15,405 --> 00:39:16,405 - Absolutely. 822 00:39:16,405 --> 00:39:17,645 - So it's really, really important. 823 00:39:17,865 --> 00:39:19,965 Now, those people that do have a little bit more 824 00:39:19,985 --> 00:39:24,085 to contribute should reach out to me via the website 825 00:39:24,705 --> 00:39:27,205 and let me know, because we'll have a conversation. 826 00:39:27,625 --> 00:39:31,405 We have a way for things, um, larger contributions 827 00:39:31,465 --> 00:39:35,205 to be tax deductible that we work through fiscal sponsorship 828 00:39:35,615 --> 00:39:40,005 where it's a way for people that do have a little bit more 829 00:39:40,185 --> 00:39:41,925 to, to contribute 830 00:39:41,945 --> 00:39:45,685 and participate to also potentially re receive a tax 831 00:39:45,685 --> 00:39:48,005 deduction for their, their contribution. 832 00:39:48,185 --> 00:39:50,285 So definitely wanna put that out there too. 833 00:39:50,755 --> 00:39:55,325 - What is the website? - The website is the last witch 834 00:39:55,715 --> 00:39:58,165 film.com all in one. 835 00:39:58,745 --> 00:40:01,085 And I think you're gonna include that in your links as well. 836 00:40:01,145 --> 00:40:03,045 So it'll be easy for people to find. Yeah. 837 00:40:03,545 --> 00:40:07,125 And from there, sign up and um, and follow us 838 00:40:07,125 --> 00:40:08,405 and all social media as well. 839 00:40:08,645 --> 00:40:10,765 'cause that's, we love that we reach a lot of people 840 00:40:10,865 --> 00:40:14,245 who have great conversations about all these topics 841 00:40:15,025 --> 00:40:17,485 and just loving seeing our community 842 00:40:17,515 --> 00:40:18,765 grow and being a part of it. 843 00:40:19,805 --> 00:40:22,245 - Absolutely. Does Elizabeth have any descendants? 844 00:40:22,945 --> 00:40:26,885 And uh, I'm also curious, has she come to visit you at all? 845 00:40:27,505 --> 00:40:29,805 - That's a really good question. Both are good questions. 846 00:40:29,805 --> 00:40:32,845 So first of all, Elizabeth does not have any descendants. 847 00:40:33,595 --> 00:40:37,705 Elizabeth was not married, no children. 848 00:40:38,005 --> 00:40:40,185 And because she was not married, she didn't have a husband 849 00:40:40,245 --> 00:40:41,945 to speak for her at the time. 850 00:40:42,805 --> 00:40:45,265 And one really important reason 851 00:40:45,365 --> 00:40:48,145 for why she got lost in the shuffle in many ways. 852 00:40:48,445 --> 00:40:49,945 She did not have any children. 853 00:40:50,725 --> 00:40:53,105 She had no descendants to speak on her behalf, 854 00:40:53,525 --> 00:40:54,525 - Any siblings. 855 00:40:54,845 --> 00:40:57,105 - She did have siblings. Her brother spoke on her 856 00:40:57,105 --> 00:40:58,145 behalf a couple of times. 857 00:40:58,725 --> 00:41:01,745 But over time people forgot about her. She disappeared. 858 00:41:02,405 --> 00:41:06,905 And that's something that it's very close to my heart 859 00:41:06,925 --> 00:41:08,265 as a single woman as well. 860 00:41:08,725 --> 00:41:10,305 How easily will I be forgotten? 861 00:41:11,245 --> 00:41:13,145 That's, that resonates with me. 862 00:41:13,565 --> 00:41:15,985 She was also probably, 863 00:41:16,445 --> 00:41:17,585 we know she was a little bit different. 864 00:41:17,835 --> 00:41:22,225 She's described as being ish exactly what that means. 865 00:41:22,965 --> 00:41:26,305 I'm cautious about diagnosing retroactively. 866 00:41:26,835 --> 00:41:28,945 There are people who will suggest 867 00:41:28,975 --> 00:41:32,625 that she may have been slow to develop in some way, 868 00:41:33,545 --> 00:41:36,405 but exactly what it is, we don't know. 869 00:41:36,705 --> 00:41:38,965 We do know from, I can read the court transcripts 870 00:41:38,965 --> 00:41:41,685 and I see that she speaks, she's very bubbly 871 00:41:41,705 --> 00:41:44,965 and she gets attention and she takes that and runs with it. 872 00:41:45,625 --> 00:41:47,645 But again, exactly what it means. 873 00:41:48,205 --> 00:41:49,925 I can't, we can't diagnose, 874 00:41:50,315 --> 00:41:51,645 just know that she was different. 875 00:41:52,225 --> 00:41:56,285 So that's, that's a really big aspect to this. 876 00:41:56,305 --> 00:41:58,885 And so you had a second part of this question as well. I'm 877 00:41:58,885 --> 00:42:00,165 - Curious if she's visited you. 878 00:42:00,515 --> 00:42:02,765 - This has been a fascinating journey for me as well. 879 00:42:03,015 --> 00:42:04,405 She's not come to visit me. 880 00:42:04,505 --> 00:42:07,125 She has visited one of the students 881 00:42:08,425 --> 00:42:11,685 and have visited with that student's ongoing. 882 00:42:11,955 --> 00:42:13,845 They had a very close relationship, 883 00:42:13,845 --> 00:42:15,565 which we're talking about in the film. 884 00:42:16,385 --> 00:42:19,925 She chose one of the students to speak on her behalf 885 00:42:20,585 --> 00:42:23,805 during this process, which is very interesting. 886 00:42:24,485 --> 00:42:29,445 I also think that Elizabeth in her own way 887 00:42:30,265 --> 00:42:32,285 has been speaking to other people. 888 00:42:32,705 --> 00:42:34,925 And in a sense, she's speaking to all of us 889 00:42:35,115 --> 00:42:36,485 because she won't let go. 890 00:42:37,215 --> 00:42:39,085 She's finally getting her voice 891 00:42:39,505 --> 00:42:43,405 and she is insisting that we tell the story. 892 00:42:43,815 --> 00:42:47,765 She's, she insisted that she be free 893 00:42:48,315 --> 00:42:50,325 from this burden of the conviction. 894 00:42:50,895 --> 00:42:53,365 She's also insisting that we remember her. 895 00:42:54,105 --> 00:42:55,685 So there's a reason 896 00:42:55,785 --> 00:42:59,325 for why there's an exhibit on her behalf in this large 897 00:42:59,355 --> 00:43:01,525 exhibit that's coming to Salem, Massachusetts 898 00:43:02,185 --> 00:43:03,645 at the Peabody Essex Museum. 899 00:43:03,645 --> 00:43:08,165 There's a reason why she wants to have a memorial somewhere 900 00:43:08,265 --> 00:43:10,685 so that we will remember her and her journey. 901 00:43:11,225 --> 00:43:14,805 And I think there's a reason why I am do making this story. 902 00:43:14,865 --> 00:43:18,285 And she's probably a part of creating that as well. 903 00:43:18,505 --> 00:43:21,285 So I feel like she's just not gonna give up 904 00:43:21,295 --> 00:43:24,045 until she gets her story told in that sense. 905 00:43:24,385 --> 00:43:25,765 But I haven't seen her physically, 906 00:43:25,985 --> 00:43:28,045 so I haven't, haven't had that. 907 00:43:28,785 --> 00:43:30,445 - Oh, it's such an interesting aspect 908 00:43:30,445 --> 00:43:33,405 that she has chosen a child to, to tell her 909 00:43:33,595 --> 00:43:34,605 that, to talk to. 910 00:43:35,205 --> 00:43:37,685 I love that. Oh, I'm so excited to watch this movie. 911 00:43:37,885 --> 00:43:41,765 I cannot stand it. Please keep me updated along the way. 912 00:43:42,265 --> 00:43:44,245 Of course. Let's talk about Sheltering Love, 913 00:43:44,245 --> 00:43:46,765 which is an Alzheimer's dementia film. 914 00:43:46,765 --> 00:43:47,805 Mm-Hmm. Documentary. 915 00:43:47,985 --> 00:43:50,885 And then Eddie's turn is something that is coming up. 916 00:43:51,345 --> 00:43:54,685 - Yes, both of those. And they're wonderful projects. 917 00:43:55,215 --> 00:43:58,565 Let's start with the documentary, which is Sheltering Love. 918 00:43:58,665 --> 00:44:00,445 And that's an ongoing project. 919 00:44:00,795 --> 00:44:03,445 It's been in the works for a number of years now. 920 00:44:04,115 --> 00:44:08,415 It's a story about a daughter who finished 921 00:44:08,935 --> 00:44:10,455 graduate school just 922 00:44:10,635 --> 00:44:13,335 as her mother developed signs of Alzheimer's. 923 00:44:13,625 --> 00:44:15,735 Signs that were strong enough. 924 00:44:15,895 --> 00:44:17,095 I didn't start to develop them, 925 00:44:17,095 --> 00:44:19,975 but had signs of Alzheimer's that said she needed help. 926 00:44:20,955 --> 00:44:24,695 So Dawn, who is the protagonist in this 927 00:44:24,695 --> 00:44:25,775 story, it's her story. 928 00:44:26,195 --> 00:44:30,015 She moved back home to New Jersey from Los Angeles 929 00:44:30,145 --> 00:44:33,285 where she just graduated from the American Film Institute 930 00:44:33,665 --> 00:44:36,205 and was poised for a career in Hollywood. 931 00:44:36,985 --> 00:44:38,965 Had she stayed here, she realized 932 00:44:38,965 --> 00:44:40,645 that her mother need needed help. 933 00:44:40,785 --> 00:44:44,165 And so she moved back home to New Jersey 934 00:44:44,215 --> 00:44:46,525 where she's been taking care of her mother since 935 00:44:46,705 --> 00:44:49,085 for over 10 years now, well over a decade, 936 00:44:50,065 --> 00:44:52,085 and has found a way 937 00:44:52,265 --> 00:44:55,125 to keep making movies from where she's at. 938 00:44:55,865 --> 00:44:59,805 But her mother has been progressively getting worse. 939 00:45:00,065 --> 00:45:03,045 And so at this point, her mother is non-responsive. 940 00:45:03,155 --> 00:45:04,805 Dawn is still taking care of her mother 941 00:45:05,385 --> 00:45:09,085 and has been documented the journey all this wild. 942 00:45:09,585 --> 00:45:13,765 So the story is in many ways about what that means 943 00:45:14,265 --> 00:45:17,525 as a daughter taking care of your mother and how that shape 944 00:45:17,745 --> 00:45:19,285 and changes the relationship. 945 00:45:19,955 --> 00:45:23,725 It's also a story about self-discovery In many ways, 946 00:45:24,795 --> 00:45:28,285 Dawn, through this journey has discovered more about her 947 00:45:28,285 --> 00:45:29,925 mother's history, for example, 948 00:45:30,025 --> 00:45:32,405 and thinking about how that applies to herself. 949 00:45:33,215 --> 00:45:36,405 She's discovered more about her mother's history 950 00:45:36,585 --> 00:45:40,805 and origin as a Norwegian coming to the United States. 951 00:45:41,545 --> 00:45:46,045 And so in the process, Dawn has been learning Norwegian 952 00:45:46,045 --> 00:45:49,485 and going back to find her own roots in Norway in a way 953 00:45:49,485 --> 00:45:51,805 that she may or may not have done had it not been 954 00:45:52,185 --> 00:45:53,245 for this journey. 955 00:45:54,145 --> 00:45:56,725 And of course her mother's name is love. 956 00:45:57,045 --> 00:45:58,605 I can't forget that. So, 957 00:45:58,745 --> 00:46:01,325 and that's why it's sort of a double entendre. 958 00:46:01,325 --> 00:46:04,325 It's sheltering the love between a mother and a daughter. 959 00:46:04,865 --> 00:46:08,965 And it's sheltering love the woman who now needs support 960 00:46:09,225 --> 00:46:11,765 as she's transitioning with a very difficult, 961 00:46:12,085 --> 00:46:13,845 debilitating disease. 962 00:46:14,465 --> 00:46:15,925 - And that is an ongoing project 963 00:46:16,265 --> 00:46:17,685 that's not out yet either. Yeah, 964 00:46:17,755 --> 00:46:19,205 - It's not out there out yet either. 965 00:46:19,355 --> 00:46:22,605 There's still more filming to be done for that as well. 966 00:46:23,025 --> 00:46:25,765 So it'll probably be another couple of years 967 00:46:25,865 --> 00:46:28,445 before it's actually ready to be seen also. 968 00:46:28,985 --> 00:46:33,045 But it is, it's another incredible story, very personal. 969 00:46:33,675 --> 00:46:35,645 It's, we're treating it with care 970 00:46:35,755 --> 00:46:38,685 because it's a tender, tender story, obviously, 971 00:46:39,185 --> 00:46:41,685 but one that so many people can relate to. 972 00:46:42,195 --> 00:46:43,605 - What, what about Eddie's turn? 973 00:46:44,145 --> 00:46:45,725 - So before, before we get into Eddie's turn, 974 00:46:45,765 --> 00:46:49,365 I just wanna say that's www do, that's everything, right? 975 00:46:49,425 --> 00:46:51,645 So sheltering love film.com. 976 00:46:52,015 --> 00:46:53,565 - Sheltering love film.com. 977 00:46:53,625 --> 00:46:55,125 And you're the executive producer on it? 978 00:46:55,465 --> 00:46:57,165 - I'm the, I'm a producer on it. Okay, 979 00:46:57,665 --> 00:46:58,665 - Got it. 980 00:46:58,665 --> 00:47:00,965 - Yes. And then we have Eddie's Turn, 981 00:47:01,135 --> 00:47:03,685 which is my narrative short film. 982 00:47:03,985 --> 00:47:05,205 That's my other project. 983 00:47:05,275 --> 00:47:07,165 It's my passion project in many ways. 984 00:47:07,945 --> 00:47:12,325 And it's a story about a former ICU nurse. She's burnt out. 985 00:47:12,505 --> 00:47:15,685 She has PTSD from her work, uh, at the hospital. 986 00:47:16,385 --> 00:47:19,845 And she now comes to visit her uncle's ranch 987 00:47:20,015 --> 00:47:23,205 where she finds a friend in a former race horse 988 00:47:23,625 --> 00:47:27,165 that's recently off the track and just lingering about 989 00:47:27,225 --> 00:47:29,485 and also needs a new path in life. 990 00:47:30,225 --> 00:47:31,645 So through trials 991 00:47:31,945 --> 00:47:34,845 and tribulations, the two of them come together 992 00:47:34,985 --> 00:47:36,725 to form a partnership, healing 993 00:47:36,865 --> 00:47:41,405 and partnership as potentially becoming equine therapists 994 00:47:41,405 --> 00:47:44,205 working together where there is a trained, 995 00:47:44,375 --> 00:47:48,285 clinically trained therapist who works with the assistance 996 00:47:48,345 --> 00:47:52,605 of a horse to help human beings heal in different ways. 997 00:47:53,745 --> 00:47:55,245 So very much about healing. 998 00:47:56,075 --> 00:47:58,445 - I've read a little bit about equine therapy 999 00:47:58,865 --> 00:48:01,165 and I think it does wonders for people. 1000 00:48:02,105 --> 00:48:05,165 Horses are incredibly intuitive creatures. 1001 00:48:05,235 --> 00:48:07,445 They're beautiful animals for sure. 1002 00:48:08,585 --> 00:48:12,005 - The transformation that happens in work with horses is 1003 00:48:12,675 --> 00:48:13,805 it's second to none. 1004 00:48:13,945 --> 00:48:16,005 If you've observed it, if you've seen it, 1005 00:48:16,225 --> 00:48:19,165 if you've experienced it, it's something that I want 1006 00:48:19,165 --> 00:48:21,445 to bring to light with this story. 1007 00:48:21,445 --> 00:48:24,045 And that's why, another reason why it's so important to me, 1008 00:48:25,045 --> 00:48:27,805 I started working on it during the pandemic when I went back 1009 00:48:27,805 --> 00:48:30,125 to horseback riding after many, many years out 1010 00:48:30,125 --> 00:48:31,725 of the saddle on a regular basis 1011 00:48:32,425 --> 00:48:34,085 and met a horse called Eddie, 1012 00:48:34,465 --> 00:48:36,485 who is the inspiration for this story. 1013 00:48:36,835 --> 00:48:39,645 It's not my story, but it is an inspiration for the story. 1014 00:48:40,345 --> 00:48:44,525 And through that I learned more about equine therapy. 1015 00:48:45,225 --> 00:48:46,925 And I wanna just preface it the, 1016 00:48:46,955 --> 00:48:48,325 because there are so many different 1017 00:48:48,325 --> 00:48:49,485 ways that we can look at this. 1018 00:48:49,705 --> 00:48:54,405 So equine therapy is therapy by a trained professional, 1019 00:48:54,885 --> 00:48:57,645 licensed trained professional, working with the help of 1020 00:48:58,205 --> 00:49:02,405 a horse as an assistant assistant, as opposed 1021 00:49:02,465 --> 00:49:04,885 to more generalized healing with horses, 1022 00:49:05,135 --> 00:49:07,245 which can take place in many different ways. 1023 00:49:07,295 --> 00:49:09,805 Everything from leadership coaching 1024 00:49:09,945 --> 00:49:12,445 to a wellness seminar, all of those things. 1025 00:49:12,505 --> 00:49:13,925 So there's a spectrum, 1026 00:49:14,905 --> 00:49:19,485 but in going on this journey, I've had the privilege 1027 00:49:19,545 --> 00:49:24,205 of visiting so many different places that are working with 1028 00:49:24,865 --> 00:49:26,365 equine therapy specifically. 1029 00:49:27,065 --> 00:49:30,525 And seeing, for example, just give you one example, 1030 00:49:30,585 --> 00:49:32,885 and there was a young man at one facility 1031 00:49:33,345 --> 00:49:36,445 who was autistic when he came to the facility. 1032 00:49:36,445 --> 00:49:39,005 Originally he was non-verbal. 1033 00:49:40,065 --> 00:49:43,965 Now at this point, we saw him take care of a horse, 1034 00:49:44,135 --> 00:49:48,005 brush a horse, and train to be a trainer of other people 1035 00:49:48,505 --> 00:49:50,205 who were like him so 1036 00:49:50,205 --> 00:49:52,285 that they could learn how to brush horses. 1037 00:49:52,625 --> 00:49:55,645 So a young autistic man that went from 1038 00:49:56,345 --> 00:49:57,845 not only being nonverbal, 1039 00:49:58,265 --> 00:50:02,005 but now being a trainer, teaching other people how 1040 00:50:02,005 --> 00:50:05,285 to take care of horses, he had sponsored his own horse 1041 00:50:05,285 --> 00:50:06,885 that he had done the math for, 1042 00:50:06,885 --> 00:50:08,525 which horse he was going to sponsor. 1043 00:50:09,265 --> 00:50:11,845 And the list just goes on and on and on. 1044 00:50:12,425 --> 00:50:17,005 So to see this ability of the horses to heal, 1045 00:50:17,785 --> 00:50:19,725 and that's just one example. 1046 00:50:20,335 --> 00:50:21,565 We've seen so many of them. 1047 00:50:22,105 --> 00:50:25,885 So the idea of Eddie's turn is to work with nonprofits 1048 00:50:25,885 --> 00:50:29,885 that are working with equine therapy or wellness, uh, 1049 00:50:30,105 --> 00:50:33,525 and to work with groups that are working with horses 1050 00:50:33,635 --> 00:50:36,125 that are coming from the track that need new jobs 1051 00:50:36,355 --> 00:50:39,605 because they come off the track having been elite athletes. 1052 00:50:39,955 --> 00:50:41,765 They've got, had one job, they're ready 1053 00:50:41,765 --> 00:50:43,285 for the next one, like many of us. 1054 00:50:43,985 --> 00:50:46,525 And, uh, working with those groups as well 1055 00:50:46,665 --> 00:50:50,525 to bring awareness and support for their activities 1056 00:50:51,065 --> 00:50:53,805 and, um, help, maybe help one 1057 00:50:53,805 --> 00:50:55,365 or two more people gain access 1058 00:50:55,385 --> 00:50:57,005 to this wonderful opportunity. 1059 00:50:57,765 --> 00:50:59,725 - I love it. And what's Eddie's turn's website? 1060 00:51:00,665 --> 00:51:02,595 - Eddie's turn movie.com 1061 00:51:03,915 --> 00:51:06,335 - And I'll put all the links on. Hey, human podcast. 1062 00:51:07,035 --> 00:51:08,255 - For sure. Hey, thank you . 1063 00:51:08,365 --> 00:51:10,495 - Yeah, I I, you're a delight. 1064 00:51:10,795 --> 00:51:12,255 I'm so excited for you 1065 00:51:12,675 --> 00:51:15,655 and for your, the work you're putting out into the world 1066 00:51:15,955 --> 00:51:18,695 that's I think is quite healing and beautiful 1067 00:51:18,835 --> 00:51:23,455 and educational and all the things that we need desperately. 1068 00:51:24,415 --> 00:51:26,755 And who knows, maybe some people will see the last witch 1069 00:51:26,755 --> 00:51:29,755 and think we need to put civics back in our schools. 1070 00:51:30,035 --> 00:51:31,115 I remember civics class. 1071 00:51:31,315 --> 00:51:32,835 I did not know they had taken it out, 1072 00:51:32,975 --> 00:51:34,515 but it's not a surprise to me. 1073 00:51:36,105 --> 00:51:37,635 - Well, that's the hope too, 1074 00:51:37,635 --> 00:51:41,395 that we can open up people's eyes to the importance 1075 00:51:41,395 --> 00:51:44,675 of knowing how to participate, knowing how 1076 00:51:44,815 --> 00:51:46,435 to discern information 1077 00:51:47,135 --> 00:51:50,595 and having conversations for, for me, 1078 00:51:51,055 --> 00:51:54,675 that's a big message for the last witch in all of these. 1079 00:51:54,905 --> 00:51:56,195 It's a message of healing 1080 00:51:56,255 --> 00:51:58,355 and care that's underlying all of them 1081 00:51:59,015 --> 00:52:03,675 and the possibility that we actually do have as humans 1082 00:52:04,015 --> 00:52:06,675 to take care of each other just a little bit more. 1083 00:52:07,415 --> 00:52:10,075 But that con it starts with conversation. For sure. 1084 00:52:11,195 --> 00:52:14,555 - Absolutely. I wish you all the success and I'm so excited. 1085 00:52:15,275 --> 00:52:16,755 I cannot wait to see the movie, 1086 00:52:17,235 --> 00:52:18,635 - , thank you so much. 1087 00:52:18,925 --> 00:52:20,795 Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. 1088 00:52:20,795 --> 00:52:22,675 This has been a delightful conversation. 1089 00:52:22,915 --> 00:52:24,195 I we're so enjoyed it. 1090 00:52:24,655 --> 00:52:25,675 - Oh, it's my pleasure. 1091 00:52:25,735 --> 00:52:28,275 And thank you for listening everybody. Bye. 1092 00:52:31,445 --> 00:52:34,595 Great review and subscribe to, Hey, human podcast on iTunes, 1093 00:52:34,595 --> 00:52:36,835 stitchers, Spotify, all the places 1094 00:52:37,065 --> 00:52:38,355 that you like your podcast. 1095 00:52:38,565 --> 00:52:40,435 Thank you for listening. Bye.