1 00:00:07,985 --> 00:00:08,525 - Hey, humans. 2 00:00:08,735 --> 00:00:10,805 How's it going? Susan, Ruth here. 3 00:00:10,865 --> 00:00:12,845 Thanks for listening to another episode 4 00:00:13,385 --> 00:00:14,485 of Hey Human Podcast. 5 00:00:15,595 --> 00:00:19,845 This is episode 402, and my guest is Vanessa McGrady. 6 00:00:19,995 --> 00:00:22,245 Vanessa is an award-winning journalist. 7 00:00:22,695 --> 00:00:25,765 She's the author of a memoir, rock Needs River, 8 00:00:26,255 --> 00:00:28,605 which details her struggles conceiving 9 00:00:28,625 --> 00:00:31,285 and ultimately becoming an adoptive parent. 10 00:00:31,825 --> 00:00:34,325 And I read the book, it's a really great book. 11 00:00:34,325 --> 00:00:36,765 It is a roller coaster ride. 12 00:00:37,705 --> 00:00:40,925 The, uh, the, the story that 13 00:00:40,925 --> 00:00:42,965 of her life is a fascinating one. 14 00:00:43,465 --> 00:00:44,885 And the journey that she took 15 00:00:45,265 --> 00:00:48,125 to become a mom is a fascinating one. 16 00:00:48,475 --> 00:00:52,685 That it involves the birth parents, it involves, uh, 17 00:00:53,185 --> 00:00:55,045 an ex-husband who passes away. 18 00:00:55,445 --> 00:00:56,765 I, there's just so much. 19 00:00:57,395 --> 00:00:59,165 It's a really incredible story, 20 00:00:59,225 --> 00:01:01,285 and it's my understanding it's being made into a 21 00:01:01,285 --> 00:01:02,605 television show as well. 22 00:01:03,035 --> 00:01:05,405 It's up for that. So it's very exciting. 23 00:01:06,065 --> 00:01:09,165 Uh, she's also a ceramicist on top of all that other stuff, 24 00:01:09,465 --> 00:01:13,605 and she just opened a new Etsy shop called Art and Intrigue. 25 00:01:14,025 --> 00:01:15,045 So that's exciting. 26 00:01:15,865 --> 00:01:18,765 All right, check out, hey human podcast.com for links. 27 00:01:18,765 --> 00:01:20,845 And to learn more about my guests in the show, 28 00:01:21,255 --> 00:01:22,885 check out Susan ruth.com. 29 00:01:22,905 --> 00:01:24,005 To learn more about me 30 00:01:24,005 --> 00:01:27,405 and my other artistic endeavors, follow Susan Ruths 31 00:01:27,465 --> 00:01:30,525 and hey, human podcast on social media. 32 00:01:30,835 --> 00:01:33,845 Find my albums on Spotify, apple Music, Amazon music, 33 00:01:34,365 --> 00:01:37,285 wherever you get your music rate, review and subscribe to. 34 00:01:37,345 --> 00:01:40,085 Hey, human Podcast on iTunes or iHeart, 35 00:01:40,305 --> 00:01:41,445 or gosh, 36 00:01:41,445 --> 00:01:44,805 pretty much anywhere you get podcasts these days, you will find it. 37 00:01:45,505 --> 00:01:46,925 All right, thank you for listening. 38 00:01:47,225 --> 00:01:51,245 Be well, be kind, be love. And here we go. 39 00:01:53,855 --> 00:01:56,305 Vanessa McCrady, welcome to Hey, human. 40 00:01:57,125 --> 00:01:59,025 - Thanks. It's amazing to be here. 41 00:02:00,175 --> 00:02:03,275 - You and I met at a mutual friend's birthday party. 42 00:02:04,095 --> 00:02:05,435 We were sitting next to each other 43 00:02:05,775 --> 00:02:07,235 and struck up a conversation, 44 00:02:07,805 --> 00:02:09,795 which I absolutely love doing by the way. 45 00:02:09,955 --> 00:02:12,635 I don't know about you, but anytime I'm sitting at a bar 46 00:02:13,315 --> 00:02:17,075 situation talking to strangers, the best , 47 00:02:17,935 --> 00:02:20,795 and I thought, you're so interesting, your story 48 00:02:20,855 --> 00:02:23,515 as it unfolded as you were telling me about yourself, 49 00:02:23,675 --> 00:02:27,155 I thought this is the perfect person to come on the show. 50 00:02:27,215 --> 00:02:30,475 So I appreciate you, uh, trusting me, 51 00:02:30,795 --> 00:02:31,915 with your story. 52 00:02:32,625 --> 00:02:35,235 - Well, you trusted me. We went to the theater that night 53 00:02:35,435 --> 00:02:37,715 'cause I had an extra ticket, so you didn't know if I, 54 00:02:37,775 --> 00:02:40,315 you know, who I was, but you just came right along. 55 00:02:40,495 --> 00:02:43,795 So I guess that's true mutual admiration and trust. 56 00:02:44,185 --> 00:02:46,635 - Tell me about your upbringing. Where'd you grow up? 57 00:02:46,865 --> 00:02:47,995 What was family like? 58 00:02:49,655 --> 00:02:52,515 - So, I am originally from New York 59 00:02:53,175 --> 00:02:55,875 and my parents divorced when I was very young. 60 00:02:56,495 --> 00:02:58,955 And so I grew up in New York primarily. 61 00:02:59,225 --> 00:03:03,445 And then, um, at 12, my dad moved us 62 00:03:03,445 --> 00:03:07,245 to the Pacific Northwest, and that's where his family was. 63 00:03:07,745 --> 00:03:10,565 Um, and then we would see my mom intermittently 64 00:03:11,265 --> 00:03:13,005 and sometimes have vacations with her. 65 00:03:13,225 --> 00:03:16,365 And then when I was a junior in high school, I just 66 00:03:17,265 --> 00:03:18,745 couldn't live at home anymore. 67 00:03:19,125 --> 00:03:22,065 You know, my dad, I just, I, I'll preface this 68 00:03:22,065 --> 00:03:23,505 by saying I love my dad. 69 00:03:23,645 --> 00:03:25,745 He is, he was bigger than life. 70 00:03:25,925 --> 00:03:29,225 He was the most generous, funny, smart person, 71 00:03:29,365 --> 00:03:32,545 but also I don't think he really knew how to raise a girl. 72 00:03:32,725 --> 00:03:37,625 And so by the time I was in high school, I was just too 73 00:03:38,225 --> 00:03:39,305 confined and ready to leave. 74 00:03:39,405 --> 00:03:40,945 And I was also way out in the country, 75 00:03:41,165 --> 00:03:43,785 and I just felt I needed the city again. 76 00:03:43,845 --> 00:03:45,265 So I went back to New York 77 00:03:45,405 --> 00:03:48,345 and I became a roommate with my mom, which sounds weird 78 00:03:48,345 --> 00:03:51,825 to say, but she was not really a traditional kind of mom. 79 00:03:51,845 --> 00:03:53,625 She was an artist and very, uh, 80 00:03:54,255 --> 00:03:56,865 airy end up there in the, in the clouds. 81 00:03:57,045 --> 00:03:59,465 And then I stayed there and went to college and, 82 00:03:59,885 --> 00:04:01,945 and then kind of bopped around a little bit after that. 83 00:04:03,145 --> 00:04:05,405 - Did you know who you were yet at that point? 84 00:04:06,245 --> 00:04:08,805 - I feel like a lot of times we al, you know, growing up, 85 00:04:08,805 --> 00:04:10,565 we always think we know who we are 86 00:04:11,225 --> 00:04:12,965 and we're consistently evolving. 87 00:04:13,665 --> 00:04:18,585 So I think at any given moment in your whole trajectory, 88 00:04:18,885 --> 00:04:21,115 you can know who you are, 89 00:04:21,215 --> 00:04:23,395 but that might not be the same in five minutes, 90 00:04:23,855 --> 00:04:25,235 - You wrote a book, rock Needs River, 91 00:04:25,495 --> 00:04:28,675 and you express who you are very much through that story. 92 00:04:29,415 --> 00:04:33,755 But I think just knowing you for the short amount 93 00:04:33,755 --> 00:04:38,355 of time I've known you, it feels very much like you have 94 00:04:39,275 --> 00:04:44,015 a strong sense of self grounded sense of self 95 00:04:44,835 --> 00:04:49,255 and reading the book, I feel like that was hard earned in, 96 00:04:49,355 --> 00:04:52,935 in some aspects, but also in other aspects, 97 00:04:53,035 --> 00:04:56,935 it seemed like you kind of started from the get go 98 00:04:57,845 --> 00:04:59,095 with a tenacity. 99 00:04:59,965 --> 00:05:02,055 - Yeah, that's actually a really lovely insight. 100 00:05:02,055 --> 00:05:04,735 Thank you for that. Well, now I'm 56 101 00:05:05,235 --> 00:05:10,055 and I feel probably like the best I've ever felt in my 102 00:05:10,055 --> 00:05:12,415 life, and I've felt the best about my choices. 103 00:05:13,175 --> 00:05:14,455 I, you know, I will say 104 00:05:15,125 --> 00:05:17,695 sometimes I feel like my life is kind of like a, 105 00:05:18,035 --> 00:05:20,615 the trajectory of breaking bad where, you know, 106 00:05:20,615 --> 00:05:21,695 they make one bad choice 107 00:05:21,715 --> 00:05:23,175 and then it leads to another bad choice. 108 00:05:23,195 --> 00:05:25,375 And then, I mean, I've never like, you know, tried 109 00:05:25,375 --> 00:05:26,535 to hide a dead body, 110 00:05:26,955 --> 00:05:30,095 but in the way just, you know, like the chain reaction 111 00:05:30,095 --> 00:05:31,935 of choices are not so, so great. 112 00:05:32,095 --> 00:05:34,615 I have not always been proud of those choices, 113 00:05:35,355 --> 00:05:37,975 but I feel like they did lead me to now 114 00:05:38,225 --> 00:05:40,175 where I am super happy. 115 00:05:40,415 --> 00:05:43,655 I have a beautiful, talented, lovely daughter 116 00:05:44,035 --> 00:05:47,255 and a sweetheart, menschy husband, 117 00:05:47,635 --> 00:05:51,095 and, you know, we're just, you know, trying to, trying 118 00:05:51,095 --> 00:05:52,295 to live the life we want. 119 00:05:52,705 --> 00:05:55,015 - Let's get into young adulthood for you. 120 00:05:55,565 --> 00:05:57,525 Take us through what that was like. 121 00:05:58,315 --> 00:06:00,205 - Well, right now it's kind of a blur. 122 00:06:01,145 --> 00:06:04,805 Um, I, uh, again, not great choices. 123 00:06:05,485 --> 00:06:09,085 I, uh, I came out of college, um, 124 00:06:09,105 --> 00:06:11,565 and I had this wonderful boyfriend 125 00:06:12,305 --> 00:06:16,925 and we moved, he got a job in New Mexico, so I followed him 126 00:06:16,925 --> 00:06:19,245 to Gallup, New Mexico, which is a very small town. 127 00:06:19,705 --> 00:06:22,645 And we stayed there and we worked at the newspaper there. 128 00:06:23,425 --> 00:06:27,485 Um, and it was really quite a learning experience. 129 00:06:27,505 --> 00:06:30,485 And I was, in my early twenties, we were in the middle 130 00:06:30,485 --> 00:06:33,765 of seven Native American reservations, 131 00:06:33,865 --> 00:06:35,605 so we learned a lot about Indian culture. 132 00:06:36,465 --> 00:06:38,285 Um, and we made so many friends. 133 00:06:38,585 --> 00:06:40,605 Um, then it was a very, you know, it was small. 134 00:06:41,305 --> 00:06:43,525 Um, and for our careers, we both had to move on, 135 00:06:43,545 --> 00:06:45,965 and I was ready to get back to the northwest. 136 00:06:46,705 --> 00:06:48,845 So we did that. And then we split up, 137 00:06:48,995 --> 00:06:50,525 like people in their twenties do. 138 00:06:50,985 --> 00:06:54,645 And I, you know, I will say my twenties were kind of, kind 139 00:06:54,645 --> 00:06:59,525 of a blur way too much drinking, for sure, way too much. 140 00:06:59,585 --> 00:07:00,965 And of course, bad choices. 141 00:07:01,705 --> 00:07:03,525 But I lived in the cabin, off the grid. 142 00:07:04,085 --> 00:07:05,885 I had to find a place to live. 143 00:07:06,145 --> 00:07:09,485 And I asked my, my friend who lived on the same road, 144 00:07:09,645 --> 00:07:12,485 I said, do you have anything, a room that I can rent 145 00:07:12,485 --> 00:07:15,645 for you, or a shack that I, this is in Port Townsend, 146 00:07:15,645 --> 00:07:18,805 Washington, so, you know, it's like lots of hippies 147 00:07:18,905 --> 00:07:22,285 and that's normal to, you know, live in somebody's bus 148 00:07:22,385 --> 00:07:23,405 or , whatever. 149 00:07:23,745 --> 00:07:26,645 And she said, no, but there's a place for sale. 150 00:07:26,755 --> 00:07:29,165 It's five acres for sale up the road from me. 151 00:07:29,625 --> 00:07:34,045 And so I just put a down payment on a credit card. 152 00:07:34,145 --> 00:07:36,685 It was a $25,000 piece of land. 153 00:07:37,505 --> 00:07:41,405 Um, I was working as a waitress, so I paid, I think I paid, 154 00:07:41,485 --> 00:07:43,885 I think my mortgage was $200 a month. Those 155 00:07:43,885 --> 00:07:44,925 - Were the days . 156 00:07:45,475 --> 00:07:47,165 - Yeah, I mean, of course I, it was, 157 00:07:47,185 --> 00:07:48,645 it was completely off the grid. 158 00:07:48,735 --> 00:07:51,405 There was no hot water except for 159 00:07:51,405 --> 00:07:53,085 what I would heat up on my stove. 160 00:07:53,175 --> 00:07:54,765 There was, I had solar panels. 161 00:07:55,585 --> 00:07:59,325 It was really drafty and cold and, um, but it was mine. 162 00:07:59,705 --> 00:08:02,565 So that was, that was my, uh, most of my twenties. 163 00:08:03,605 --> 00:08:06,965 - H how did you take care of the ne, especially as a woman 164 00:08:07,345 --> 00:08:10,525 who menstruates every month, uh, how did you deal 165 00:08:10,525 --> 00:08:12,965 with all the general things 166 00:08:13,105 --> 00:08:15,685 of living bodily functions, 167 00:08:16,005 --> 00:08:18,325 - , bathe, you know, I had, um, 168 00:08:18,445 --> 00:08:19,565 a water runoff system. 169 00:08:20,465 --> 00:08:22,645 So in the summertime I just took, uh, there was a, 170 00:08:22,755 --> 00:08:24,245 there's the shower bags, 171 00:08:24,465 --> 00:08:26,165 and you fill the shower up with warm water 172 00:08:26,165 --> 00:08:27,325 and you hang 'em on the side of the 173 00:08:27,325 --> 00:08:28,365 house and you take your shower. 174 00:08:28,905 --> 00:08:31,885 My mom lived in town, so when I needed a really good, 175 00:08:32,145 --> 00:08:35,485 you know, head to toe scrubbing, I would go see her. 176 00:08:36,425 --> 00:08:41,125 But I really had a, you know, I had a stove and I had water 177 00:08:41,345 --> 00:08:44,845 and light and fireplace and a propane heater. 178 00:08:44,945 --> 00:08:48,065 So it was just, I will say 179 00:08:48,575 --> 00:08:52,385 that I do appreciate every single hot shower 180 00:08:53,095 --> 00:08:54,545 I've ever taken since then. 181 00:08:54,845 --> 00:08:57,445 And also I am glad I don't have 182 00:08:57,445 --> 00:08:59,965 to pee in a tomato can anymore , 183 00:09:02,425 --> 00:09:04,605 But I'll always, I'll always be able to do that. 184 00:09:04,665 --> 00:09:08,885 So now I know that if I ever had to do it again, I could, 185 00:09:08,985 --> 00:09:10,445 but I would do it better. 186 00:09:10,925 --> 00:09:13,925 I know that one time, there was one time where 187 00:09:14,225 --> 00:09:15,885 as I was single with my dog, 188 00:09:16,745 --> 00:09:21,325 one time I was replacing the chimney and I was on the roof 189 00:09:21,625 --> 00:09:24,205 and I was putting the chimney through the, the hole 190 00:09:24,705 --> 00:09:28,565 and I was just wishing there was somebody below to catch it 191 00:09:28,585 --> 00:09:30,005 and to help adjust it. 192 00:09:30,265 --> 00:09:34,325 And that I, I remember that moment so clearly thinking, wow, 193 00:09:34,355 --> 00:09:37,445 this would just be easier with someone who was as 194 00:09:38,045 --> 00:09:39,325 invested in this as I was. 195 00:09:39,985 --> 00:09:42,125 So I knew I could do it again, but, 196 00:09:42,385 --> 00:09:43,965 but I'd just do it better this time. 197 00:09:44,545 --> 00:09:45,685 - Do you still have that land? 198 00:09:46,405 --> 00:09:48,405 - I don't, I sold it. I was, 199 00:09:48,765 --> 00:09:52,605 I was winter waitressing in a northwest tourist town, 200 00:09:53,145 --> 00:09:57,715 you know, and sometimes I'd have like $7 tips at night. 201 00:09:57,715 --> 00:09:59,995 So I ended up having to take a job job in Seattle 202 00:10:00,445 --> 00:10:01,955 where I worked for a magazine 203 00:10:02,055 --> 00:10:05,635 and, you know, had a regular apartment and a salary. And 204 00:10:06,575 --> 00:10:09,235 - You always had a writing inclination. 205 00:10:10,335 --> 00:10:14,075 Was that in the back of your mind to pursue 206 00:10:14,255 --> 00:10:17,475 or did it just come that you fell into things? 207 00:10:18,345 --> 00:10:20,115 - Well, I came at it from a couple angles. 208 00:10:20,115 --> 00:10:21,635 First, I come from a writer family. 209 00:10:22,535 --> 00:10:25,835 My dad and my uncle Mike were, 210 00:10:26,015 --> 00:10:28,395 and my grandfather as well were all writers. 211 00:10:28,575 --> 00:10:31,035 And they were pretty, um, pretty prolific. 212 00:10:31,095 --> 00:10:35,155 And my dad, uh, fun fact, my dad, uh, pat McGrady 213 00:10:35,155 --> 00:10:38,795 and his brother Mike McGrady were the first two brothers in 214 00:10:38,795 --> 00:10:42,155 history to be on the New York Times bestseller list. 215 00:10:42,815 --> 00:10:46,115 So, I know, I know you can't see this if you're listening, 216 00:10:46,135 --> 00:10:47,475 but I'll show you this picture. 217 00:10:47,625 --> 00:10:50,755 This is, that's a picture of them from People Magazine 218 00:10:51,345 --> 00:10:56,285 when they, when, so what the picture is for, 219 00:10:56,305 --> 00:10:57,805 um, anyone who doesn't see it, 220 00:10:57,805 --> 00:11:00,045 and maybe if you wanna post a copy of it, you can. 221 00:11:00,225 --> 00:11:02,125 But it's two middle aged men 222 00:11:03,195 --> 00:11:05,765 with Smith Corona typewriters in front of them, 223 00:11:05,825 --> 00:11:07,885 and they're each tapping on each other's typewriter. 224 00:11:08,745 --> 00:11:10,405 So, and it's black and white. 225 00:11:10,545 --> 00:11:13,445 Um, so, so yes, I come from a family of writers, 226 00:11:13,745 --> 00:11:16,005 but also I don't feel like I was like really 227 00:11:16,035 --> 00:11:17,245 good at anything else. 228 00:11:17,825 --> 00:11:22,085 And I couldn't think of what I would, what else I would do 229 00:11:23,025 --> 00:11:25,725 my, most of my career besides, uh, service work. 230 00:11:25,835 --> 00:11:28,605 I've been, I've been a writer one kind or another. 231 00:11:29,435 --> 00:11:31,965 - What was your dad and what were their book that, 232 00:11:32,105 --> 00:11:33,205 was it a book they wrote together 233 00:11:33,265 --> 00:11:34,965 or was it a book they wrote separately? 234 00:11:35,345 --> 00:11:37,605 - My dad wrote a book called The Pritikin Diet, 235 00:11:37,945 --> 00:11:39,645 or pr a Pritikin program for diet 236 00:11:39,645 --> 00:11:43,405 and Exercise with a guy named Nathan Pritikin. 237 00:11:43,985 --> 00:11:45,965 And my Uncle Mike wrote, 238 00:11:46,125 --> 00:11:48,885 co-wrote the Linda Lovelace autobiography. 239 00:11:49,675 --> 00:11:51,725 - Whoa. - That was called Ordeal. 240 00:11:52,465 --> 00:11:54,645 So those, yeah, two very different books, 241 00:11:55,305 --> 00:11:57,525 but they both were, were on the 242 00:11:57,615 --> 00:11:59,085 bestseller list at the same time. 243 00:11:59,745 --> 00:12:01,245 - Was your dad a big health nut? 244 00:12:02,675 --> 00:12:03,885 - Well, you know, this is funny. 245 00:12:04,005 --> 00:12:05,605 I was just thinking about this this morning. 246 00:12:06,265 --> 00:12:08,405 He was, you know, most of the time as he got older, 247 00:12:09,145 --> 00:12:11,005 he was not super healthy. 248 00:12:11,245 --> 00:12:14,205 I mean, he always had extra weight 249 00:12:14,785 --> 00:12:18,325 and sort of wasn't exercising 'cause he had bad knees, 250 00:12:18,545 --> 00:12:23,245 and he would stash Oreos and ice cream for a company. 251 00:12:23,665 --> 00:12:25,525 I'm making air quotes here for a company, 252 00:12:25,945 --> 00:12:28,325 but we were very restrict, like we had 253 00:12:28,325 --> 00:12:30,205 to be on the Pritikin diet when we were kids. 254 00:12:30,745 --> 00:12:32,325 And I was just thinking, wow, 255 00:12:32,525 --> 00:12:34,085 I feel like I was thinking this this morning 256 00:12:34,705 --> 00:12:38,685 as I was feeding my daughter that I feel like we spent a lot 257 00:12:38,685 --> 00:12:43,155 of time really hungry for, for food that was not, 258 00:12:44,075 --> 00:12:46,555 I mean, we never, you know, we're purposely starved, 259 00:12:46,575 --> 00:12:50,075 but it was a low fat, low protein diet back then, 260 00:12:50,615 --> 00:12:52,235 and they didn't, I don't think they knew enough. 261 00:12:53,015 --> 00:12:56,395 And it was, I feel like we just were so hungry all the time. 262 00:12:57,115 --> 00:12:58,915 I mean, I guess he was a health nut in that way 263 00:12:58,975 --> 00:13:01,555 for other people, but not necessarily for himself. 264 00:13:02,095 --> 00:13:03,835 - That's always the way, isn't it? ? 265 00:13:07,025 --> 00:13:09,195 What happens now after college, 266 00:13:09,405 --> 00:13:11,515 after the land? What happens next? 267 00:13:12,215 --> 00:13:15,955 - So, I had moved to Seattle, I guess it was the year 2000. 268 00:13:16,815 --> 00:13:19,195 And I was working, I came 269 00:13:19,215 --> 00:13:21,995 to visit in California to visit friends. 270 00:13:22,375 --> 00:13:26,515 And I was just so struck by how beautiful it was 271 00:13:26,895 --> 00:13:29,275 and how vibrant I was actually in your part of town. 272 00:13:29,275 --> 00:13:32,955 It was in Santa Monica, and the beach was so gorgeous 273 00:13:33,135 --> 00:13:37,275 and everybody seems just like anything could happen here. 274 00:13:37,865 --> 00:13:40,315 Like if you wanted to build a rocket ship, 275 00:13:40,815 --> 00:13:43,395 you could find people who also wanna build a rocket ship. 276 00:13:44,055 --> 00:13:47,035 And by gum you're gonna get that rocket ship up in the air. 277 00:13:47,415 --> 00:13:49,395 So then I went back to Seattle where I was living 278 00:13:49,535 --> 00:13:52,995 and I was being, um, a playwright, uh, and a producer. 279 00:13:54,535 --> 00:13:56,675 And I had kind of failed. 280 00:13:57,115 --> 00:13:59,835 I wasn't a great playwright at that time 281 00:14:00,505 --> 00:14:03,715 because I was so concerned about what the product 282 00:14:04,255 --> 00:14:05,275 was going to be. 283 00:14:05,555 --> 00:14:09,195 I sort of lost sight of the actual art of it. 284 00:14:09,615 --> 00:14:12,555 So I had finished a, a second round of a show 285 00:14:12,555 --> 00:14:14,195 that was really successful the first time. 286 00:14:14,655 --> 00:14:17,035 The second time I, my theater was too big 287 00:14:17,035 --> 00:14:20,035 and the run was too long and it wasn't that good. 288 00:14:20,335 --> 00:14:23,595 And, and then mean, in the meantime, the boyfriend 289 00:14:23,595 --> 00:14:25,955 that I was living with started cheating on me. 290 00:14:26,455 --> 00:14:28,355 And then he moved right next door, . 291 00:14:28,615 --> 00:14:29,835 So I could see him all the time. 292 00:14:30,535 --> 00:14:32,675 And I just felt, you know, I feel like it's time to go. 293 00:14:32,875 --> 00:14:34,795 I feel like it's just time to time to move. 294 00:14:34,895 --> 00:14:37,715 So in two, and then my dad had died two years before that, 295 00:14:38,015 --> 00:14:39,915 and I just felt like, I think it's time to leave. 296 00:14:40,795 --> 00:14:42,955 So I thought either I'll go back to New York 297 00:14:43,695 --> 00:14:45,155 or come to California. 298 00:14:45,455 --> 00:14:48,155 And I just thought, well, I'll try California. 299 00:14:48,255 --> 00:14:49,675 And that was in 2005. 300 00:14:49,815 --> 00:14:52,995 And here we are 19 years later, 301 00:14:53,135 --> 00:14:54,475 and I, I guess I'm still here. 302 00:14:54,705 --> 00:14:55,955 It's still my home. So, 303 00:14:56,335 --> 00:14:59,115 - And it's sunny all the time, unlike New York . 304 00:15:00,025 --> 00:15:02,315 - It's true. - Although I love New York and I don't, 305 00:15:02,695 --> 00:15:04,675 - We build your rocket ship with you in New York, 306 00:15:04,675 --> 00:15:05,875 either. Ah, 307 00:15:06,375 --> 00:15:11,305 - All along you we're starting to feel the, the Call 308 00:15:11,305 --> 00:15:15,105 of Mom hood and that became a battle cry almost. 309 00:15:16,445 --> 00:15:20,345 - Yes, in my late twenties, I started thinking, oh, 310 00:15:20,685 --> 00:15:22,465 you know, maybe I'll have a baby in two years. 311 00:15:23,125 --> 00:15:24,665 In two years. And it was always two years. 312 00:15:25,525 --> 00:15:27,785 And then I got pregnant 313 00:15:28,405 --> 00:15:33,265 and I was surprisingly so excited to have this baby. 314 00:15:33,545 --> 00:15:35,585 I was just over the moon 315 00:15:36,005 --> 00:15:39,825 and I had, um, my, I was working in a, at a magazine 316 00:15:40,005 --> 00:15:42,425 and on my office wall, I had a list 317 00:15:42,425 --> 00:15:45,265 where people could write names, suggest names, 318 00:15:45,525 --> 00:15:48,025 and, um, people started giving me little 319 00:15:48,025 --> 00:15:49,185 things 'cause I was so excited. 320 00:15:49,205 --> 00:15:51,065 My cousin's wife gave me this beautiful blanket. 321 00:15:51,285 --> 00:15:53,585 And, and then at 12 weeks I miscarried. 322 00:15:54,245 --> 00:15:59,185 And it was really devastating for anybody who, um, 323 00:15:59,825 --> 00:16:01,905 I mean, I guess it's, it's understandable whether you've 324 00:16:01,905 --> 00:16:03,065 miscarried or not, but it was just, 325 00:16:03,925 --> 00:16:08,505 and then I realized like, oh, I actually really do want 326 00:16:08,505 --> 00:16:09,905 to become a mother, 327 00:16:11,645 --> 00:16:15,625 but I also had never really found the right partner. 328 00:16:16,185 --> 00:16:19,585 I, I have a very close friend we had dated on 329 00:16:19,585 --> 00:16:21,145 and off from the Port Townsend days, 330 00:16:21,885 --> 00:16:23,705 and he is, you know, a lovely guy. 331 00:16:23,865 --> 00:16:26,825 And he came to stay with me in, in California 332 00:16:26,885 --> 00:16:29,545 for a little while, and we actually tried to have a baby. 333 00:16:30,205 --> 00:16:32,265 We, uh, we had two more miscarriage, 334 00:16:32,275 --> 00:16:34,025 early miscarriages after that. 335 00:16:34,605 --> 00:16:36,185 And then I started thinking like, wow, 336 00:16:36,275 --> 00:16:39,105 maybe this baby is not gonna come outta my hoo-ha. 337 00:16:39,215 --> 00:16:41,225 Like, I feel like this baby has 338 00:16:41,225 --> 00:16:43,665 to happen a different way, probably. 339 00:16:43,965 --> 00:16:46,585 And then cut to, uh, 340 00:16:46,765 --> 00:16:50,465 2008 when I, uh, 341 00:16:50,625 --> 00:16:54,585 I met my daughter's father and we worked together 342 00:16:55,245 --> 00:16:59,625 and we got married and ex, but he also had had a vasectomy. 343 00:16:59,625 --> 00:17:02,905 His kids were mostly grown and, but he was on board. 344 00:17:03,085 --> 00:17:05,385 And so I had already started the adoption process 345 00:17:05,645 --> 00:17:07,825 and I, you know, had done all my paperwork 346 00:17:07,925 --> 00:17:11,225 and background checks and, um, and he got on the train 347 00:17:11,285 --> 00:17:12,505 and, and did that as well. 348 00:17:13,325 --> 00:17:15,025 And then exactly nine months 349 00:17:15,115 --> 00:17:18,145 after we got married that we, 350 00:17:18,385 --> 00:17:20,145 I held my daughter for the first time. 351 00:17:20,675 --> 00:17:23,585 - Let's dig in a little to the story around that. 352 00:17:24,205 --> 00:17:27,145 You wrote an entire book about this whole journey, 353 00:17:27,245 --> 00:17:28,505 and I highly recommend it. 354 00:17:28,505 --> 00:17:32,185 It's, it's a great book, really, , what struck me is 355 00:17:33,295 --> 00:17:37,425 that every time you would step forward one foot, you had 356 00:17:37,425 --> 00:17:38,705 to step backward two feet. 357 00:17:39,285 --> 00:17:43,465 And, but you kept stepping forward, which a lot of people, 358 00:17:43,625 --> 00:17:48,385 I think would give up in, in, in feeling overwhelmed 359 00:17:48,525 --> 00:17:52,365 by it all, but you just kept moving forward. 360 00:17:54,125 --> 00:17:55,225 - But don't you think that's true 361 00:17:55,255 --> 00:17:57,345 with almost anybody who wants something? 362 00:17:57,415 --> 00:17:59,105 Like if you're an actor? 363 00:18:00,085 --> 00:18:03,585 - No, no, I don't, I don't think that, 364 00:18:04,315 --> 00:18:06,055 that's why I, I, that's why I find it. 365 00:18:06,115 --> 00:18:09,375 Oh, when I see it in people, I, I like to remark on it. 366 00:18:09,475 --> 00:18:12,935 It is remarkable. 'cause I think there are a lot of things 367 00:18:13,565 --> 00:18:18,415 that we do and don't do for ourselves that really lead 368 00:18:18,415 --> 00:18:20,095 to a lot of self-sabotage 369 00:18:20,595 --> 00:18:22,575 or feelings that we're not worth a life 370 00:18:22,575 --> 00:18:24,255 that we think we want or deserve 371 00:18:24,715 --> 00:18:26,895 and that we might work toward it, 372 00:18:27,555 --> 00:18:30,295 but still do things to 373 00:18:31,965 --> 00:18:35,505 ebb away at that goal, even if, you know, a lot 374 00:18:35,505 --> 00:18:36,825 of times it's unconscious. 375 00:18:37,185 --> 00:18:41,385 I think that people just have this self-sabotage default. 376 00:18:41,935 --> 00:18:45,385 It's funny, you could read some of your history 377 00:18:45,885 --> 00:18:48,105 as being sabotage esque, 378 00:18:48,645 --> 00:18:51,385 but it never felt, it never really felt like that. 379 00:18:51,445 --> 00:18:53,265 It felt more the opposite. 380 00:18:53,685 --> 00:18:56,265 It felt more like, I'm gonna do this thing 381 00:18:56,645 --> 00:18:57,905 and see what happens next. 382 00:18:58,125 --> 00:19:01,985 It felt more like leaps of faith, if you will, than 383 00:19:03,045 --> 00:19:05,905 I'm gonna do a thing that is probably not gonna work out. 384 00:19:05,965 --> 00:19:08,505 It was, it was almost like an optimistic view 385 00:19:08,505 --> 00:19:10,665 of a pessimistic world or something. 386 00:19:10,965 --> 00:19:13,625 I'm not, I'm not sure how to, to phrase it exactly. 387 00:19:14,505 --> 00:19:15,585 - I, in my pottery studio, 388 00:19:15,775 --> 00:19:17,945 said something the other day about his work 389 00:19:17,965 --> 00:19:19,825 and he said, it's ready, fire, aim. 390 00:19:20,725 --> 00:19:23,745 And I think that's a good way to, to, um, 391 00:19:24,205 --> 00:19:25,425 to describe what you're saying. 392 00:19:26,085 --> 00:19:27,085 Yes. 393 00:19:27,435 --> 00:19:28,565 - Yeah. Does that, I mean, does 394 00:19:28,565 --> 00:19:30,445 that feel like an accurate description of you? 395 00:19:31,385 --> 00:19:35,445 - You know, it does, but I, you know, I don't think, I mean, 396 00:19:35,545 --> 00:19:38,285 I'm just not the person who planned out their life. 397 00:19:39,145 --> 00:19:42,685 And so, so many people do. 398 00:19:43,275 --> 00:19:46,605 When I wanted things and set my, I'm good at manifesting, 399 00:19:47,065 --> 00:19:51,285 I'd say like, there was no way I was not gonna have a baby. 400 00:19:51,555 --> 00:19:52,805 Like I just knew somehow. 401 00:19:53,025 --> 00:19:55,885 But it was also a knowing that I'd had for a long time, 402 00:19:55,885 --> 00:19:57,525 that I would, that I would be, 403 00:19:58,385 --> 00:20:00,725 and I was for many years a single mother. 404 00:20:01,145 --> 00:20:02,365 And I don't know how I knew that, 405 00:20:02,545 --> 00:20:04,605 but I just always knew that. 406 00:20:05,155 --> 00:20:07,245 - Well, you got signs along the way as well. 407 00:20:07,455 --> 00:20:11,805 There were what some might consider woowoo, 408 00:20:12,225 --> 00:20:15,685 but you seem to, the universe seemed to keep winking at you 409 00:20:16,355 --> 00:20:17,355 - Love how you put that. 410 00:20:17,625 --> 00:20:22,125 Yes. So I would say the first sign was 411 00:20:22,885 --> 00:20:27,645 I went to Israel to visit my brother who was raised there. 412 00:20:27,825 --> 00:20:30,565 He, um, his mother was from my dad's first marriage. 413 00:20:31,385 --> 00:20:36,005 And we were standing at this beautiful church. 414 00:20:36,145 --> 00:20:38,765 It was a beautiful Russian Orthodox church on the top 415 00:20:38,765 --> 00:20:39,765 of a hill in Jerusalem. 416 00:20:40,785 --> 00:20:42,845 And I start, I just went by myself 417 00:20:42,865 --> 00:20:44,245 and I started walking around 418 00:20:44,945 --> 00:20:47,925 and I was standing, standing in the graveyard 419 00:20:48,055 --> 00:20:50,685 where they buried, you know, the nuns and everything. 420 00:20:50,745 --> 00:20:53,845 And, and suddenly I just heard this voice 421 00:20:54,945 --> 00:20:56,965 and there was nobody around me. 422 00:20:58,235 --> 00:21:01,635 I cannot tell you if it was male or female 423 00:21:01,935 --> 00:21:05,275 or where it came from, but the words were, 424 00:21:05,865 --> 00:21:07,715 it's okay to ask for a miracle. 425 00:21:10,875 --> 00:21:13,015 And I, you know, I heard this and I looked around 426 00:21:13,075 --> 00:21:14,615 and there was nobody there. 427 00:21:15,315 --> 00:21:17,535 And so I just felt like, okay, well I guess this is, 428 00:21:17,535 --> 00:21:20,215 you know, good place as any to ask 429 00:21:20,215 --> 00:21:22,415 for a miracle top of a hill in a holy city. 430 00:21:22,475 --> 00:21:24,695 So probably can't get much closer. 431 00:21:25,915 --> 00:21:30,415 So I just said, I would like to find someone to, who wants 432 00:21:30,415 --> 00:21:32,295 to have a child with me, and I'd like to be a mom. 433 00:21:33,205 --> 00:21:34,865 And then I came back from that trip 434 00:21:35,705 --> 00:21:37,765 and I met my husband at work like the next week. 435 00:21:38,145 --> 00:21:41,985 So I mean, I met the man who would become my husband. Yeah, 436 00:21:42,655 --> 00:21:44,425 - I've heard that voice before myself. 437 00:21:44,525 --> 00:21:47,305 And it also had to do with the concept of miracles. 438 00:21:47,335 --> 00:21:49,265 I'll have to tell you that story sometime. Oh, 439 00:21:49,445 --> 00:21:51,305 - I'm so happy to detour if you want to now. 440 00:21:51,365 --> 00:21:52,625 But , we, yeah, 441 00:21:53,685 --> 00:21:55,385 - It, well, it's kind of a long story, 442 00:21:55,605 --> 00:21:59,105 but the, the gist of it, not only am I a miracle, 443 00:21:59,285 --> 00:22:03,025 not only are you a miracle, but everything is a miracle. 444 00:22:04,045 --> 00:22:05,945 Our ex, our existence, 445 00:22:07,175 --> 00:22:08,175 - It's a miracle. 446 00:22:08,175 --> 00:22:10,185 And I, you know, I was thinking about this, I was in, um, 447 00:22:10,215 --> 00:22:13,425 Ireland last summer, and I'm, our family is Irish. 448 00:22:14,325 --> 00:22:19,105 And I started learning a little bit more about all 449 00:22:19,105 --> 00:22:22,105 of the evictions and the unfairness 450 00:22:22,565 --> 00:22:26,745 and the persecution that Irish people had, um, 451 00:22:26,955 --> 00:22:28,105 under the English rule. 452 00:22:29,275 --> 00:22:31,295 And I wrote to my cousins 453 00:22:31,675 --> 00:22:34,775 and I was saying, do you know how amazing it is 454 00:22:35,655 --> 00:22:37,585 that we are here? 455 00:22:38,705 --> 00:22:40,845 We have survived all of that. 456 00:22:40,905 --> 00:22:43,965 And I mean, you think about really everybody, 457 00:22:43,985 --> 00:22:45,605 you think about everybody in this country 458 00:22:46,225 --> 00:22:48,445 who survived coming from somewhere else, 459 00:22:48,865 --> 00:22:52,885 or, you know, if they're indigenous, survived, you know, 460 00:22:53,015 --> 00:22:56,325 white people, white people, colonization, you know, 461 00:22:56,385 --> 00:22:59,645 if they came from Africa, you know, if their ancestors were 462 00:22:59,645 --> 00:23:01,405 so slaves, they survived that. 463 00:23:01,785 --> 00:23:04,605 - Or women who have survived sexual violence 464 00:23:04,615 --> 00:23:06,165 throughout history. It's, 465 00:23:06,245 --> 00:23:07,965 - I mean, it's even a miracle that like, 466 00:23:09,435 --> 00:23:11,165 that sperm chose that egg. 467 00:23:11,375 --> 00:23:16,105 - Every little thing that had to happen for, for us 468 00:23:16,165 --> 00:23:17,585 to even be sitting here right now. 469 00:23:19,445 --> 00:23:20,745 - Yep, yep. 470 00:23:21,545 --> 00:23:23,475 Just sitting in a miracle all the time, 471 00:23:23,505 --> 00:23:26,235 even though we forget, you know, it's so easy to forget. 472 00:23:26,235 --> 00:23:29,075 Of course. And I mean, how lucky are we now 473 00:23:29,075 --> 00:23:31,955 that we can sit about, sit here and talk about miracles 474 00:23:31,955 --> 00:23:32,995 and not have to worry, like, oh, 475 00:23:32,995 --> 00:23:34,875 where am I sleep tonight? You 476 00:23:35,285 --> 00:23:36,285 - Know? 477 00:23:36,285 --> 00:23:37,765 Exactly. I think that's, yeah, 478 00:23:38,545 --> 00:23:41,765 - We have a, we have certain privilege to be able to do that 479 00:23:42,915 --> 00:23:43,915 - For sure. 480 00:23:43,915 --> 00:23:46,605 Or the fact that we can talk about anything we want to. 481 00:23:46,705 --> 00:23:49,085 And no storm trooper will come through the door 482 00:23:49,145 --> 00:23:53,925 to haul us away, which is happening today in lots of places. 483 00:23:54,705 --> 00:23:57,875 - Not yet anyway. - Yeah, not yet. Anyway. 484 00:23:58,225 --> 00:24:00,275 Well, let's get back to you. You come home 485 00:24:01,135 --> 00:24:04,235 and you meet the man, 486 00:24:05,015 --> 00:24:08,515 and he agrees, even though it's my understanding 487 00:24:08,515 --> 00:24:10,875 that he was a little on the fence about it, 488 00:24:11,135 --> 00:24:12,235 but he loved you. 489 00:24:12,905 --> 00:24:15,195 - Yeah, he loved me. We loved each other. 490 00:24:15,975 --> 00:24:19,225 He had a very messy divorce, uh, that was 491 00:24:20,095 --> 00:24:21,625 impending when we met. 492 00:24:21,885 --> 00:24:25,905 And then of course he kind of moved it along once we met, 493 00:24:26,925 --> 00:24:29,305 and then we were married, became parents, 494 00:24:30,085 --> 00:24:33,265 and then his alcoholism took over. 495 00:24:33,765 --> 00:24:36,385 And I, you know, I really 496 00:24:37,455 --> 00:24:39,265 love addicts so much. 497 00:24:39,615 --> 00:24:41,345 Like, they're so fun. 498 00:24:42,095 --> 00:24:44,785 They're so generous, they're so gregarious, 499 00:24:45,875 --> 00:24:49,055 and it's so wild and amazing and free 500 00:24:49,055 --> 00:24:52,815 and fun until it's not, if you've ever known. 501 00:24:53,555 --> 00:24:55,775 - Oh, yes. I preferred them in my younger days 502 00:24:55,795 --> 00:24:57,055 as well. Yeah. 503 00:24:57,595 --> 00:25:01,495 - So, um, so we had to split up 504 00:25:01,495 --> 00:25:04,735 because I was very well a, I was, you know, 505 00:25:04,735 --> 00:25:05,815 just kind of turned off. 506 00:25:06,195 --> 00:25:08,255 - You, you sounded like you were in denial of it 507 00:25:08,275 --> 00:25:09,375 for quite a long time. 508 00:25:10,125 --> 00:25:13,055 - Well, I mean, I was complicit in it for some of the time. 509 00:25:13,185 --> 00:25:14,575 There was like the, for the year 510 00:25:14,575 --> 00:25:16,975 before I didn't drink so that 511 00:25:17,595 --> 00:25:20,815 we could have at least one sober person in the household. 512 00:25:22,285 --> 00:25:24,485 I didn't drink at all. And, you know, 513 00:25:24,525 --> 00:25:27,085 I always liked my glass of wine or, you know, a cocktail 514 00:25:27,145 --> 00:25:30,005 or whatever, but I, I felt like I couldn't even do that. 515 00:25:30,245 --> 00:25:33,245 'cause we had a little baby, and then there was another time 516 00:25:33,245 --> 00:25:35,365 where we were going to a Christmas party 517 00:25:35,545 --> 00:25:39,805 and he veered across a four lane highway 518 00:25:41,115 --> 00:25:42,205 with a baby in the back. 519 00:25:42,425 --> 00:25:46,605 And I felt like, oh my God, this is not safe for us. 520 00:25:46,845 --> 00:25:48,045 I didn't realize he'd been drinking 521 00:25:48,105 --> 00:25:49,125 before we got in the car. 522 00:25:49,145 --> 00:25:50,365 So we turned around and went home. 523 00:25:51,235 --> 00:25:52,815 And that was really the beginning of the end. 524 00:25:53,075 --> 00:25:57,215 And very, very sadly, he died in 2019, 525 00:25:57,955 --> 00:25:59,935 um, of alcoholism and liver failure. 526 00:26:00,555 --> 00:26:03,545 So we miss him every day, you know, 527 00:26:03,565 --> 00:26:05,345 and I, I wish it had turned out different. 528 00:26:06,145 --> 00:26:08,915 - Yeah. How did your daughter, 529 00:26:09,415 --> 00:26:10,835 how old was your daughter when he passed? 530 00:26:11,575 --> 00:26:15,075 - She was seven, and she is almost 13 now. 531 00:26:16,075 --> 00:26:19,315 She is very protective of the memory of her dad. 532 00:26:20,295 --> 00:26:22,315 She does not talk about him a lot, 533 00:26:22,775 --> 00:26:25,315 but I know she clo holds him close, you know, 534 00:26:25,315 --> 00:26:26,835 close in her vest. 535 00:26:26,895 --> 00:26:29,935 And she has, um, you know, she has her pictures up 536 00:26:30,075 --> 00:26:32,375 and her, you know, we talked the other day 537 00:26:32,475 --> 00:26:36,415 and I said, you know, I've never seen you cry about daddy, 538 00:26:36,725 --> 00:26:38,655 have you, you know, is that something 539 00:26:38,655 --> 00:26:42,015 that you feel like you can do or you don't wanna do? 540 00:26:42,275 --> 00:26:44,005 Or, and she said she has. 541 00:26:44,585 --> 00:26:47,565 But I think grief in children is a lot different 542 00:26:47,865 --> 00:26:50,085 and less straightforward than it is in adults. 543 00:26:50,745 --> 00:26:52,335 - Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. 544 00:26:52,335 --> 00:26:54,175 And it can manifest in a lot of different ways, 545 00:26:54,355 --> 00:26:55,655 of course, for anyone. 546 00:26:56,155 --> 00:26:59,655 What's interesting also about your story, , is that 547 00:27:01,415 --> 00:27:05,435 you were not, you were not closed off to the idea 548 00:27:05,695 --> 00:27:08,115 of knowing about her birth parents 549 00:27:08,335 --> 00:27:10,555 or her knowing about her birth parents. 550 00:27:10,655 --> 00:27:14,515 And that took you on an incredibly interesting journey, 551 00:27:14,695 --> 00:27:15,915 in my humble opinion. 552 00:27:16,615 --> 00:27:17,755 Can we talk about that a little bit? 553 00:27:18,545 --> 00:27:22,035 - Sure. So her parents, uh, were named, are named, 554 00:27:22,215 --> 00:27:24,155 her birth parents are named Bridgette 555 00:27:24,155 --> 00:27:28,875 and Bill, we met them four days before Grace was born. 556 00:27:29,145 --> 00:27:31,315 They had already kind of gone 557 00:27:31,315 --> 00:27:32,955 through another prospective family 558 00:27:33,735 --> 00:27:35,915 and a single woman, I think didn't work out. 559 00:27:36,255 --> 00:27:38,475 And then my, our social worker called us. 560 00:27:38,675 --> 00:27:40,555 I, we had done all this work 561 00:27:40,695 --> 00:27:43,315 and I had been waiting basically, you know, in the, 562 00:27:43,935 --> 00:27:45,635 in the mix for two years. 563 00:27:45,815 --> 00:27:49,605 So just to back up the history of adoption, um, 564 00:27:49,705 --> 00:27:52,525 I'm not going to give you a novel or a book or, 565 00:27:52,525 --> 00:27:53,565 or treat us on it, but, 566 00:27:53,745 --> 00:27:57,125 but people should know that up until about the eighties, 567 00:27:57,915 --> 00:28:00,285 most adoptions were a closed file. 568 00:28:00,945 --> 00:28:02,925 So, or they were like with kin 569 00:28:03,225 --> 00:28:07,125 and children would not know who their birth parents were. 570 00:28:07,345 --> 00:28:11,085 And unless they actively did a kind of a search 571 00:28:11,185 --> 00:28:13,365 or a records, uh, request 572 00:28:13,425 --> 00:28:16,405 or something, most of the time there was really not, 573 00:28:17,305 --> 00:28:20,045 not any contact between the birth parent 574 00:28:20,065 --> 00:28:22,085 and there was there, the birth parents were not able 575 00:28:22,085 --> 00:28:25,965 to pick usually who, you know, would become 576 00:28:26,695 --> 00:28:28,845 caregivers for their children that they had. 577 00:28:29,025 --> 00:28:31,005 And so it was just, you know, you're, 578 00:28:31,005 --> 00:28:32,925 you're next in line, here you go. 579 00:28:33,865 --> 00:28:35,405 Did you want a boy? Did you want a girl? 580 00:28:35,405 --> 00:28:36,805 Here's your, you know, here's your child. 581 00:28:37,305 --> 00:28:41,815 So, so that changed quite a bit starting in the eighties 582 00:28:42,285 --> 00:28:43,535 with open adoptions. 583 00:28:43,755 --> 00:28:48,095 And that allowed, um, all, all three, 584 00:28:48,835 --> 00:28:53,175 uh, three pieces of the, of the puzzle, the birth parents, 585 00:28:53,515 --> 00:28:55,815 the adoptive parents and the children to know each other 586 00:28:56,675 --> 00:29:00,095 and to be equally important how the birth parent wanted 587 00:29:00,155 --> 00:29:03,855 to place their child, who they wanted to place, place them 588 00:29:03,855 --> 00:29:06,175 with, what terms they wanted. 589 00:29:06,275 --> 00:29:09,495 So some, you know, some birth parents want no contact, 590 00:29:09,925 --> 00:29:11,695 some want, you know, in the occasional photo. 591 00:29:11,755 --> 00:29:14,775 And then some want to be ingrained in the lives. 592 00:29:15,405 --> 00:29:19,015 It's not legally binding what you ask for initially. 593 00:29:19,355 --> 00:29:20,575 And then often it changes. 594 00:29:20,915 --> 00:29:23,535 So sometimes people are pretty sure they want that, 595 00:29:23,555 --> 00:29:26,815 but also, you know, their circumstances change, um, 596 00:29:26,815 --> 00:29:28,815 and they don't, or vice versa. 597 00:29:28,995 --> 00:29:31,895 So, um, we had met Bridget 598 00:29:31,895 --> 00:29:34,655 and Bill, we thought we were a good match, 599 00:29:34,755 --> 00:29:37,255 and we were, they were, um, musicians. 600 00:29:38,115 --> 00:29:40,295 The, the pregnancy was a surprise. 601 00:29:40,565 --> 00:29:43,285 Bridget said she did not know for six months 602 00:29:43,285 --> 00:29:45,565 that she was pregnant until one day she looked down 603 00:29:45,565 --> 00:29:48,125 and there was like a basketball in her middle. 604 00:29:48,505 --> 00:29:51,245 And so they were not really in the position 605 00:29:51,245 --> 00:29:52,525 to parent at that time. 606 00:29:52,555 --> 00:29:54,605 They were very close to being homeless. 607 00:29:55,195 --> 00:29:56,925 Bill worked at a fast food restaurant. 608 00:29:57,315 --> 00:29:59,085 Bridget could not find a job. 609 00:29:59,265 --> 00:30:02,045 She had just come from Ohio the year before 610 00:30:02,705 --> 00:30:03,845 and had been working in grocery, 611 00:30:04,065 --> 00:30:07,125 but she just couldn't, could not land a job here. 612 00:30:08,105 --> 00:30:11,855 And they just, yeah, they just were not in a good position. 613 00:30:12,235 --> 00:30:17,215 Uh, I, I wanna footnote this by saying that, uh, I hate, 614 00:30:17,315 --> 00:30:20,375 one thing I hate the most about the United States is 615 00:30:20,375 --> 00:30:22,815 that we don't care about mothers 616 00:30:22,815 --> 00:30:24,575 and children as much as we say we do. 617 00:30:25,055 --> 00:30:29,815 I would never, ever, ever want a decision to be financial or 618 00:30:29,815 --> 00:30:32,175 because, you know, for someone to place a child 619 00:30:32,555 --> 00:30:36,375 for adoption, I actually think that's inhumane. 620 00:30:37,195 --> 00:30:39,935 And it's inhumane that, um, you know, that 621 00:30:39,935 --> 00:30:41,495 so many people do have to make that choice. 622 00:30:42,215 --> 00:30:43,295 'cause we don't take care of our people. 623 00:30:43,875 --> 00:30:45,655 But that's, I agree. Yeah. 624 00:30:45,795 --> 00:30:49,375 So, uh, but they also were not, you know, emotionally 625 00:30:50,225 --> 00:30:51,695 ready to do that either. 626 00:30:52,875 --> 00:30:55,855 And so, uh, so then on, you know, 627 00:30:55,875 --> 00:30:58,575 on the day she was born, uh, it is funny. 628 00:30:58,735 --> 00:31:00,575 I, uh, I had to go, I was at work, 629 00:31:00,735 --> 00:31:02,255 I was at working at this big corporation, 630 00:31:02,835 --> 00:31:06,215 and I had to go to this business trip 631 00:31:06,955 --> 00:31:08,575 and I asked if I couldn't go 632 00:31:08,575 --> 00:31:10,495 because, you know, my baby was gonna be born soon. 633 00:31:11,075 --> 00:31:13,655 And my boss was like, well, you know, why don't you just go, 634 00:31:13,785 --> 00:31:14,815 she's a first time mom 635 00:31:14,835 --> 00:31:16,775 and it'll take a while, you know, you can come back. 636 00:31:17,555 --> 00:31:21,575 And then I'm at this hotel for like a, I don't know, 637 00:31:21,575 --> 00:31:22,775 12 hours or something, 638 00:31:22,915 --> 00:31:25,895 and I get this call, this text from Bill Bridgets 639 00:31:25,895 --> 00:31:27,735 and Labor Send Steve, you know, husband. 640 00:31:27,875 --> 00:31:28,895 I'm like, wait a second. 641 00:31:29,115 --> 00:31:31,495 And so I have to come from Northern California, 642 00:31:31,495 --> 00:31:33,055 and I'm like running for the plane 643 00:31:33,155 --> 00:31:34,695 and I'm saying, my baby's gonna be 644 00:31:34,695 --> 00:31:35,855 born, my baby's being born. 645 00:31:35,855 --> 00:31:38,095 And people are like, ma'am, excuse me, classic. 646 00:31:38,095 --> 00:31:39,175 Running through the airport. 647 00:31:39,235 --> 00:31:41,135 And then my friend who was gonna pick me up 648 00:31:41,135 --> 00:31:43,295 and take me to the hospital was late, you know? 649 00:31:43,295 --> 00:31:45,175 And he's just like, on my way, on my like, 650 00:31:45,275 --> 00:31:46,535 I'm like, oh my God, it's just Burbank. 651 00:31:46,535 --> 00:31:48,455 You know, you live like 10 minutes away, really. 652 00:31:49,715 --> 00:31:51,775 But finally, you know, we made it. 653 00:31:52,075 --> 00:31:54,215 And Grace was, you know, 654 00:31:54,215 --> 00:31:57,015 well Steve was already in the hospital room and Bridgette, 655 00:31:57,015 --> 00:31:58,135 and he's called Peter in the book, 656 00:31:58,135 --> 00:32:00,255 but his name's really Steve, uh, Bridget 657 00:32:00,255 --> 00:32:02,935 and Bill were there, and there was this like tiny little 658 00:32:03,095 --> 00:32:06,135 fussy baby in her clear plastic bin. 659 00:32:06,195 --> 00:32:09,775 And I picked her up and she stopped crying. 660 00:32:09,775 --> 00:32:11,855 And then she, you know, I became her mom. 661 00:32:13,275 --> 00:32:15,575 - At first, you didn't really know 662 00:32:15,915 --> 00:32:19,975 how involved you were going to be with the birth parents. 663 00:32:20,855 --> 00:32:22,015 - I definitely didn't know 664 00:32:22,015 --> 00:32:23,535 that they would live with us for a while. 665 00:32:23,635 --> 00:32:28,535 So they became homeless when Grace was about two. 666 00:32:29,585 --> 00:32:32,895 Steve, by that time, had moved out because of the drinking. 667 00:32:33,755 --> 00:32:37,215 So I was single momming it with, you know, with just me 668 00:32:37,215 --> 00:32:39,565 and Grace in my little apartment in Glendale. 669 00:32:40,675 --> 00:32:43,525 They let me know that they had become homeless 670 00:32:44,025 --> 00:32:45,685 and they were sleeping on the street. 671 00:32:46,305 --> 00:32:49,615 And it was, I wanna say it was like Thanksgiving. 672 00:32:50,235 --> 00:32:51,335 It was around Thanksgiving, 673 00:32:51,435 --> 00:32:52,775 and I had invited them over 674 00:32:52,835 --> 00:32:54,975 for like a little pre Thanksgiving where they could, 675 00:32:55,155 --> 00:32:58,095 you know, see Grace and, you know, we could all be together 676 00:32:58,155 --> 00:33:00,645 and kind of be like this family. 677 00:33:00,805 --> 00:33:01,885 I mean, it was the kind of family. 678 00:33:02,905 --> 00:33:07,045 And then it was this year, it was 2010, uh, 679 00:33:07,225 --> 00:33:11,515 it was 2011, and it was one of those winters 680 00:33:11,515 --> 00:33:12,915 where it just did not stop raining. 681 00:33:13,125 --> 00:33:15,595 Those, you know, LA Rain I think is different than a lot 682 00:33:15,595 --> 00:33:20,245 of other place Rain, like when it decides to rain, it goes 683 00:33:20,305 --> 00:33:22,565 for it, you know, , there's no stopping it. 684 00:33:23,105 --> 00:33:25,325 Um, they were living in a tent 685 00:33:25,865 --> 00:33:27,525 in on the street at that time. 686 00:33:27,665 --> 00:33:30,525 So I just thought, well, that's not acceptable. 687 00:33:31,165 --> 00:33:33,325 I think, I think almost anybody would say 688 00:33:33,325 --> 00:33:36,485 that's not acceptable if they knew somebody who was, 689 00:33:37,475 --> 00:33:39,255 you know, knew and loved somebody who was like, 690 00:33:39,255 --> 00:33:40,335 living on in a tent. 691 00:33:40,435 --> 00:33:43,335 So I said, well, why don't you come stay with me? 692 00:33:44,415 --> 00:33:48,135 I guess the mistake there was really not putting 693 00:33:49,105 --> 00:33:51,815 boundaries or expectations around that, 694 00:33:51,915 --> 00:33:54,495 or how long they could stay 695 00:33:54,875 --> 00:33:58,975 or, you know, what my terms were for them staying, 696 00:33:59,915 --> 00:34:01,015 you know, so they were in 697 00:34:01,015 --> 00:34:03,175 and out for a while, you know, 698 00:34:03,175 --> 00:34:05,775 sometimes they would wanna go back to the street 699 00:34:06,195 --> 00:34:08,455 or to the shelter because they were closer 700 00:34:08,515 --> 00:34:09,615 to their services, I guess. 701 00:34:10,395 --> 00:34:11,455 Um, but then every now 702 00:34:11,455 --> 00:34:13,295 and then they would like show up on my doorstep. 703 00:34:13,475 --> 00:34:16,735 And then there was one day where I just like, 704 00:34:18,175 --> 00:34:21,315 you know, I had tried to you, I, 705 00:34:21,335 --> 00:34:25,115 and this is how naive I was, I thought, oh, if I just talk, 706 00:34:25,215 --> 00:34:27,835 you know, if I bring in my friend who works at Trader Joe's 707 00:34:27,835 --> 00:34:29,835 who can tell 'em how to get a job at Trader Joe's, 708 00:34:30,025 --> 00:34:32,075 they'll go get jobs, you know, 709 00:34:32,235 --> 00:34:34,435 when not realizing like it's systems. 710 00:34:34,705 --> 00:34:39,275 Like they needed entire systems to help them. 711 00:34:39,345 --> 00:34:42,355 They needed housing systems, medical, mental health, 712 00:34:43,255 --> 00:34:47,195 you know, just so many other systems that I was just not 713 00:34:48,225 --> 00:34:53,035 able to even understand until much later they decided. 714 00:34:53,175 --> 00:34:55,075 And I think there became some friction too, 715 00:34:55,075 --> 00:34:58,115 because like, I would, I don't know what they did all day. 716 00:34:58,975 --> 00:35:02,075 So I was, you know, out working at this like, toxic job 717 00:35:02,445 --> 00:35:03,915 where I had to wear Mrs. 718 00:35:04,115 --> 00:35:07,115 Separates and, you know, drive to work and drive back. 719 00:35:07,175 --> 00:35:10,155 And my baby was in, you know, grace was in daycare. 720 00:35:11,095 --> 00:35:12,475 And um, and I was like, oh my God, 721 00:35:12,475 --> 00:35:13,595 what did you guys do all day? 722 00:35:13,595 --> 00:35:15,035 And like, I guess they just played music 723 00:35:15,615 --> 00:35:16,915 all day in my house. 724 00:35:17,295 --> 00:35:19,595 So I became a little bit like, all right, well let's, 725 00:35:19,595 --> 00:35:20,875 let's get a plan going here. 726 00:35:20,895 --> 00:35:22,315 And that just never really happened. 727 00:35:22,415 --> 00:35:26,775 And so when they left, they left, 728 00:35:27,035 --> 00:35:30,855 but in the meantime, we, you know, I was doing a lot 729 00:35:30,855 --> 00:35:33,575 of personal essay and I wrote a story 730 00:35:33,595 --> 00:35:35,255 for the New York Times at that time, 731 00:35:35,395 --> 00:35:37,330 the column was called Mother Load, 732 00:35:37,330 --> 00:35:39,045 and it was a parenting column. 733 00:35:39,625 --> 00:35:40,765 And I wrote about us, 734 00:35:40,785 --> 00:35:43,005 and they asked me to write about it as well. 735 00:35:43,005 --> 00:35:44,445 They were completely on board 736 00:35:44,445 --> 00:35:46,725 because they felt like, well, if people know our story, 737 00:35:47,055 --> 00:35:48,285 maybe they would wanna help us. 738 00:35:48,545 --> 00:35:49,645 And they actually did get quite, 739 00:35:49,805 --> 00:35:52,045 I put it post in my mom's group, 740 00:35:52,105 --> 00:35:54,045 or I, again, no, I guess it was on Facebook. 741 00:35:54,345 --> 00:35:58,905 And tons of people gave, they sent them gift cards, 742 00:35:58,935 --> 00:36:00,665 they sent them clothes, they sent them, 743 00:36:00,725 --> 00:36:03,065 one guy from Michigan sent them a bunny cage 744 00:36:03,445 --> 00:36:06,385 for their rabbit, like an actual bunny cage in the mail. 745 00:36:06,385 --> 00:36:08,305 Like they just, people just came out of the woodwork 746 00:36:08,305 --> 00:36:10,985 to help them, um, which was truly lovely 747 00:36:11,445 --> 00:36:15,385 and inspiring that human heart just has no bounds. 748 00:36:15,645 --> 00:36:17,345 But, you know, we af after a while, like, 749 00:36:17,345 --> 00:36:20,185 it was just really not a sustainable situation. 750 00:36:20,845 --> 00:36:23,665 And the thing that clinched it for me was Grace, 751 00:36:23,945 --> 00:36:25,745 I think was starting to become very anxious. 752 00:36:26,245 --> 00:36:28,785 So she was crying, she was clinging to me. 753 00:36:28,965 --> 00:36:32,385 She wouldn't, she wouldn't go to sleep without me sleeping, 754 00:36:32,525 --> 00:36:33,905 you know, like right on me. 755 00:36:34,525 --> 00:36:36,385 And I was like, okay, I think this coming 756 00:36:36,445 --> 00:36:39,265 and going is not good for her. 757 00:36:40,105 --> 00:36:42,785 I think it's good for her to know them and to love them, 758 00:36:42,885 --> 00:36:46,265 but the coming and going is not working. 759 00:36:46,685 --> 00:36:48,625 So I, you know, I didn't invite them back. 760 00:36:49,125 --> 00:36:50,865 And then we'd, we'd, we saw each other 761 00:36:51,175 --> 00:36:52,785 several times after that. 762 00:36:53,565 --> 00:36:58,235 But I think when the book came out, they, uh, 763 00:36:58,635 --> 00:37:00,635 I don't know, I, I just felt like they maybe thought they 764 00:37:00,635 --> 00:37:03,575 were too exposed or something. 765 00:37:04,155 --> 00:37:06,655 Um, I don't know. I don't really know. 766 00:37:06,915 --> 00:37:08,455 How long has it been since you've heard from them? 767 00:37:09,035 --> 00:37:10,175 Um, since 2019. 768 00:37:11,235 --> 00:37:13,775 And I do have a, I have a contract with them 769 00:37:14,085 --> 00:37:17,255 that I would give a portion of anything I make from the book 770 00:37:17,875 --> 00:37:19,055 to them, from the book sales. 771 00:37:19,475 --> 00:37:21,775 You know, when I got my advance, I cut a check 772 00:37:21,775 --> 00:37:25,135 and then the second time I cut, I cut a check 773 00:37:25,315 --> 00:37:28,295 and I still have those checks in my file 774 00:37:28,365 --> 00:37:30,095 because they didn't want them 775 00:37:30,395 --> 00:37:32,335 and they, you know, refused to take it. 776 00:37:33,265 --> 00:37:34,965 So That's interesting. Yeah. 777 00:37:34,985 --> 00:37:36,245 So someday, you know, 778 00:37:36,245 --> 00:37:37,965 if they ever want it, there's money for them. 779 00:37:38,105 --> 00:37:40,825 But, um, but I, you know, 780 00:37:40,825 --> 00:37:44,825 and hopefully if Grace ever wants to know them, um, 781 00:37:45,255 --> 00:37:46,705 they will be accessible to her. 782 00:37:47,895 --> 00:37:50,425 Yeah. Let's talk about the book a bit. 783 00:37:50,725 --> 00:37:51,905 I'd never written a book before, 784 00:37:52,485 --> 00:37:54,425 or I guess I'd had like, pieces of books 785 00:37:54,645 --> 00:37:57,665 and I never really felt like I had enough to say 786 00:37:57,725 --> 00:38:01,385 for one book enough about one thing to say for a book. 787 00:38:01,645 --> 00:38:04,265 And then, so the New York Times article ran, 788 00:38:04,845 --> 00:38:06,585 it got a lot of attention. 789 00:38:07,805 --> 00:38:11,395 There was a, an enterprise at that time called She Books, 790 00:38:11,885 --> 00:38:15,275 which was shorter eBooks kind of geared toward women. 791 00:38:15,535 --> 00:38:18,115 And these were like smaller books, like 20,000 words maybe. 792 00:38:18,775 --> 00:38:20,555 And so I contacted somebody there 793 00:38:20,795 --> 00:38:21,755 'cause I thought, oh, well maybe I'll 794 00:38:21,755 --> 00:38:22,555 just expand this article. 795 00:38:22,655 --> 00:38:24,995 And she first accepted it 796 00:38:25,095 --> 00:38:27,835 and said, actually, this should be a real book. 797 00:38:28,825 --> 00:38:32,315 Call this agent, see if, you know, she's interested. 798 00:38:32,495 --> 00:38:35,565 And then I called the agent and the agent said, not for me, 799 00:38:35,625 --> 00:38:38,525 but it is for Cheryl pka, I think, 800 00:38:38,625 --> 00:38:39,965 who was an agent in New York. 801 00:38:40,585 --> 00:38:43,085 She had done her, um, this, uh, 802 00:38:43,085 --> 00:38:45,965 thesis on open adoption 'cause she's adopted. 803 00:38:46,785 --> 00:38:50,245 And we had a wonderful conversation and she became my agent 804 00:38:50,825 --> 00:38:53,405 and she helped me a lot with a book over, 805 00:38:54,195 --> 00:38:55,645 gosh, probably about five years. 806 00:38:56,465 --> 00:38:57,925 You know, she really helped me shape 807 00:38:57,925 --> 00:38:59,565 that book and figure out. 808 00:38:59,565 --> 00:39:01,405 And then, I mean, there were times where I was like, 809 00:39:01,845 --> 00:39:03,085 I don't think I have enough to say. 810 00:39:03,225 --> 00:39:06,125 And she's like, okay. And like, well, but wait a second. 811 00:39:06,705 --> 00:39:08,525 You know, maybe I do. But she, you know, 812 00:39:08,525 --> 00:39:10,565 she was like a real reality check person. 813 00:39:10,865 --> 00:39:14,165 And I mean, there was a little bit of, ah, I know I told you 814 00:39:14,165 --> 00:39:15,845 to do this, but not working for me. 815 00:39:15,945 --> 00:39:17,005 And so, you know, finally 816 00:39:17,095 --> 00:39:20,765 after the umpteenth draft, I just said, all right, 817 00:39:20,765 --> 00:39:23,125 the next person who changes this book is gonna be the 818 00:39:23,125 --> 00:39:24,285 editor who buys it. 819 00:39:24,865 --> 00:39:27,965 And, uh, it was acquired at by little a 820 00:39:28,265 --> 00:39:31,445 and they were wonderful there, the literary imprint, um, 821 00:39:31,825 --> 00:39:33,645 of Amazon's publishing. 822 00:39:33,645 --> 00:39:36,125 Not self-publishing, but publishing arm. 823 00:39:36,385 --> 00:39:38,645 And, um, they were really like a wonderful, 824 00:39:39,035 --> 00:39:41,365 wonderful publisher, wonderful experience. 825 00:39:41,525 --> 00:39:44,285 I know people have thoughts about Amazon, 826 00:39:44,865 --> 00:39:47,765 but for, I think they do take care of their creators. 827 00:39:48,305 --> 00:39:51,885 It was very supportive and really wonderful. 828 00:39:53,595 --> 00:39:55,565 - Yeah. And you did the Audible as well, 829 00:39:55,585 --> 00:39:57,085 or the voice version? 830 00:39:57,125 --> 00:39:59,485 - I did, yeah. I got to go to, I had to audition to 831 00:40:00,095 --> 00:40:01,525 voice my own book, , 832 00:40:01,665 --> 00:40:05,045 but I guess I passed the audition and I went to Michigan. 833 00:40:05,915 --> 00:40:07,085 Beautiful. Beautiful. 834 00:40:07,285 --> 00:40:09,605 I wanna say it's not, it, it wasn't Grand Rapids, 835 00:40:09,605 --> 00:40:11,645 but it's where Audible headquarters are. 836 00:40:12,385 --> 00:40:14,845 And spend a few days recording the book, 837 00:40:14,985 --> 00:40:17,405 and yeah, it was, it was a, it was a great experience. 838 00:40:17,405 --> 00:40:18,685 It was exhausting, but it was great. 839 00:40:19,725 --> 00:40:21,985 - That's wild. You had to audition to read your own book. 840 00:40:23,415 --> 00:40:25,335 - I can see why they would do that though. 841 00:40:25,335 --> 00:40:30,305 Because what if you were an author who didn't either, 842 00:40:30,485 --> 00:40:33,945 didn't want to, or just didn't sound like, 843 00:40:33,965 --> 00:40:35,345 wasn't comfortable reading? 844 00:40:35,705 --> 00:40:39,585 I know that, um, I was listening to a Roxanne Gay audio book 845 00:40:39,765 --> 00:40:40,945 and I was really surprised 846 00:40:40,945 --> 00:40:42,545 and I was like, oh, Roxanne, that's like, 847 00:40:42,545 --> 00:40:44,345 she's got such a beautiful voice 848 00:40:44,525 --> 00:40:46,305 and speaking voice, but it wasn't her. 849 00:40:46,535 --> 00:40:47,945 That was, it was somebody else, 850 00:40:48,085 --> 00:40:50,625 but she, I totally believed it was Roxanne Gay. 851 00:40:50,905 --> 00:40:53,785 'cause they got such a good match for her. Yeah. 852 00:40:54,215 --> 00:40:58,235 - Yeah. I love her books. - Yeah, she's, yeah, 853 00:40:59,075 --> 00:41:00,075 - She's great. 854 00:41:00,255 --> 00:41:02,065 Well, what happens next? And tell people 855 00:41:02,065 --> 00:41:03,065 where they can find the book 856 00:41:03,085 --> 00:41:05,385 and tell people what you're working on and, 857 00:41:05,445 --> 00:41:07,905 and how is Grace doing and all of that. 858 00:41:08,245 --> 00:41:09,985 - Um, you can find the book at any 859 00:41:10,515 --> 00:41:12,505 bookseller if it's not on the shelf. 860 00:41:12,745 --> 00:41:14,625 'cause it's a little, it's five years old at this point, 861 00:41:14,685 --> 00:41:16,345 so it's probably not, you know, 862 00:41:16,405 --> 00:41:19,065 on all your indie bookstore books, bookstore shelves, 863 00:41:19,125 --> 00:41:21,345 but you can definitely find it online. 864 00:41:21,905 --> 00:41:24,705 bookshop.org is a great one if you wanna support 865 00:41:24,705 --> 00:41:25,945 independent booksellers. 866 00:41:26,335 --> 00:41:29,265 Also, Amazon, of course, it's called Rock Needs River. 867 00:41:29,805 --> 00:41:32,225 And now I am working on a couple things. 868 00:41:32,445 --> 00:41:35,685 I'm working on a memoir that 869 00:41:36,585 --> 00:41:39,305 connects grief with things that are growing in my garden. 870 00:41:39,925 --> 00:41:43,225 So it's, uh, it's essays, it's, it's highly personal. 871 00:41:43,325 --> 00:41:45,945 I'm not sure like anyone will ever wanna read it, 872 00:41:46,005 --> 00:41:48,345 but I like working on it. 873 00:41:48,525 --> 00:41:51,705 And then something completely different, which is an adult 874 00:41:52,345 --> 00:41:56,535 graphic novel about a reluctant superhero 875 00:41:57,665 --> 00:41:59,085 called Laser Pussy. 876 00:42:00,035 --> 00:42:02,045 - Okay, dig it. I dig that. 877 00:42:02,265 --> 00:42:04,525 So who's the Rock and who's the river in your title? 878 00:42:05,025 --> 00:42:08,805 - The reason I chose that title was because I went to Texas. 879 00:42:09,145 --> 00:42:10,965 So Bridget and Bill had moved to Texas 880 00:42:11,145 --> 00:42:14,565 and they were staying in family, a family house, weirdly, 881 00:42:14,645 --> 00:42:16,485 I think they didn't have running water either, 882 00:42:17,225 --> 00:42:19,645 so they would, you know, have to go get their water from, 883 00:42:19,995 --> 00:42:23,165 from the, um, store or something, the library or something. 884 00:42:23,845 --> 00:42:25,045 I was exhausted 885 00:42:25,045 --> 00:42:28,085 after interviewing them, talking to them for three days. 886 00:42:28,245 --> 00:42:29,565 'cause I really wanted to find out. 887 00:42:30,125 --> 00:42:32,045 I, I thought their story was so important 888 00:42:32,105 --> 00:42:34,405 and they told me so many things that I didn't know about, 889 00:42:34,405 --> 00:42:36,845 like social workers tried to talk, talk them out 890 00:42:36,845 --> 00:42:39,685 of placing their child, placing grace for adoption. 891 00:42:39,865 --> 00:42:42,725 And it was a wild ride for them too. 892 00:42:43,465 --> 00:42:44,925 So I wanted to know more about that. 893 00:42:45,065 --> 00:42:47,085 So I flew to Texas, interviewed them, 894 00:42:47,945 --> 00:42:52,485 and then to kind of decompress after all that I drove. 895 00:42:52,585 --> 00:42:57,045 And I was in Kerrville, which is a beautiful little spot. 896 00:42:57,685 --> 00:42:59,485 I just drove and drove and there was like a rainbow. 897 00:42:59,865 --> 00:43:04,125 And I sat on this, uh, rock near, 898 00:43:04,315 --> 00:43:05,925 near a riverbank, I guess. 899 00:43:06,345 --> 00:43:10,445 And I just noticed like, oh, they're symbiotic. 900 00:43:10,625 --> 00:43:14,015 So the river would not have its path 901 00:43:14,035 --> 00:43:15,575 or its form without the rocks, 902 00:43:16,235 --> 00:43:18,175 but the rocks kind of need the river 903 00:43:18,315 --> 00:43:20,295 to shape them and to move them. 904 00:43:20,955 --> 00:43:22,575 So it was very symbi symbiotic. 905 00:43:22,575 --> 00:43:23,735 So I would say, you know, 906 00:43:24,445 --> 00:43:26,575 sometimes you're the rock, sometimes you're the river. 907 00:43:27,235 --> 00:43:32,095 But in this case, I think because they were so moving 908 00:43:32,155 --> 00:43:34,015 and flowing, Bridget and Bill were the river, 909 00:43:34,035 --> 00:43:37,615 and I probably was the rock that could provide that stable 910 00:43:38,365 --> 00:43:39,695 home for, for grace 911 00:43:39,715 --> 00:43:41,735 and the love of a, you know, parent, 912 00:43:41,925 --> 00:43:43,335 like proper love for a parent. 913 00:43:44,905 --> 00:43:47,155 - Yeah, in a way, I suppose the fact 914 00:43:47,155 --> 00:43:48,995 that they haven't been in touch shows 915 00:43:49,065 --> 00:43:51,155 that they have faith in you as a mom. 916 00:43:52,175 --> 00:43:57,075 But I wonder for grace, I've read about kids 917 00:43:57,175 --> 00:43:59,555 who grow up, who were adopted 918 00:43:59,575 --> 00:44:02,835 and grow up, have this, no matter how loving the family is, 919 00:44:03,505 --> 00:44:07,515 have a a sense somewhere in them of abandonment or, 920 00:44:07,695 --> 00:44:10,435 or a, there's something missing feeling 921 00:44:10,615 --> 00:44:14,275 and it's well documented with adopted kids. 922 00:44:15,095 --> 00:44:19,435 And I'm just, I'm curious how she has found 923 00:44:21,195 --> 00:44:22,525 herself in all of that. 924 00:44:22,605 --> 00:44:24,285 I know she's young, so it's a little tricky 925 00:44:24,305 --> 00:44:26,045 to speak about her, but, uh, 926 00:44:26,585 --> 00:44:30,525 but that idea that now they've gone away, how, 927 00:44:31,265 --> 00:44:32,765 how does that all figure in? 928 00:44:34,045 --> 00:44:38,825 - So t yes, typically they, they say that, you know, people 929 00:44:38,885 --> 00:44:43,545 who are adopted do have some kind of original wound from, 930 00:44:44,085 --> 00:44:48,985 you know, the parents that they grew with versus the parents 931 00:44:49,045 --> 00:44:51,625 who, no matter, I mean, I was there the first day, so, 932 00:44:51,965 --> 00:44:53,225 you know, I was always her mom, 933 00:44:54,005 --> 00:44:56,545 but also I didn't want her to have any mystery 934 00:44:56,685 --> 00:44:58,505 or, you know, wondering who they were. 935 00:44:59,405 --> 00:45:03,825 And so that's why I was so adamant about her knowing them, 936 00:45:04,015 --> 00:45:06,545 arranging the visit visits, you know, she even went to, 937 00:45:06,755 --> 00:45:08,465 maybe this was a mistake, I don't know, 938 00:45:08,465 --> 00:45:10,385 but she even went to see, you know, where they lived 939 00:45:10,925 --> 00:45:12,425 and they explained, it was like camping 940 00:45:12,765 --> 00:45:14,585 and she was little, she was like six 941 00:45:14,585 --> 00:45:16,705 or seven, they explained, oh yeah, this is like camping 942 00:45:16,805 --> 00:45:19,625 and you know, this is what we cook our food on, et cetera. 943 00:45:20,325 --> 00:45:22,785 But I think she, you know, she learned like, oh, I, 944 00:45:23,225 --> 00:45:25,225 I think she clocked very early on that like, 945 00:45:26,335 --> 00:45:29,745 they were not well suited to parenthood. 946 00:45:31,025 --> 00:45:33,965 And that's what I wanted for her is to under, 947 00:45:34,025 --> 00:45:35,045 you know, have like a com. 948 00:45:35,165 --> 00:45:36,325 I never lied. I, you know, 949 00:45:36,365 --> 00:45:38,605 I always show like when she turned two, 950 00:45:38,725 --> 00:45:42,445 I gave her this picture book that showed her in the hospital 951 00:45:42,445 --> 00:45:46,205 with everybody and her, you know, the day legalization, 952 00:45:46,665 --> 00:45:48,325 you know, when we're all in the courtroom together. 953 00:45:48,505 --> 00:45:51,045 And, you know, so she, you know, she has those 954 00:45:51,965 --> 00:45:55,085 tangible things that she can look at to, you know, remember 955 00:45:56,365 --> 00:45:58,845 I ask almost every single 956 00:45:58,845 --> 00:46:00,325 person who tells me they're adopted. 957 00:46:00,565 --> 00:46:02,125 'cause people always come up and tell, you know, 958 00:46:02,125 --> 00:46:03,165 after, you know, 959 00:46:03,165 --> 00:46:05,885 they know Sure wrote about it, always tell me about it. 960 00:46:05,885 --> 00:46:09,205 And it's a, I just love our adoption community so much 961 00:46:09,465 --> 00:46:11,245 and, you know, whether they're birth moms 962 00:46:11,245 --> 00:46:14,925 or people who were adopted or adoptive parents, um, 963 00:46:15,105 --> 00:46:18,325 and I ask every adoptive person, you know, 964 00:46:18,325 --> 00:46:22,285 about their experience and some of them, you know, 965 00:46:22,425 --> 00:46:27,125 or do you really have this like aching yawning chasm of, 966 00:46:27,345 --> 00:46:29,165 you know, some emptiness in them 967 00:46:29,755 --> 00:46:31,485 that really wishes they could know. 968 00:46:32,835 --> 00:46:35,495 Um, I would say for the most part though, you know, 969 00:46:35,495 --> 00:46:37,615 some people, I've met people who just do not care. 970 00:46:38,045 --> 00:46:41,295 Like they couldn't care less. They've had a great life. 971 00:46:41,645 --> 00:46:43,175 They love their family. 972 00:46:44,045 --> 00:46:46,615 They, you know, are grateful that their parent, you know, 973 00:46:46,615 --> 00:46:49,335 their birth parent, um, placed them for adoption. 974 00:46:49,995 --> 00:46:52,855 And then I know, uh, other people who say 975 00:46:53,895 --> 00:46:57,815 I finally met my birth mom, I, it was amazing to see that, 976 00:46:57,875 --> 00:47:00,775 you know, we had the same hair and we both like this thing 977 00:47:00,875 --> 00:47:02,935 and you know, like all these genetic, you know, 978 00:47:02,935 --> 00:47:04,095 wonderful surprises, 979 00:47:04,595 --> 00:47:06,735 but they're also like, I'm so glad 980 00:47:07,525 --> 00:47:08,775 that my parents raised me. 981 00:47:10,165 --> 00:47:13,105 So I mean, it's really a huge, huge spectrum. 982 00:47:13,445 --> 00:47:16,505 And no one adoption story is the same as another. 983 00:47:17,215 --> 00:47:20,905 - That makes complete sense. Absolutely. Yeah. 984 00:47:21,815 --> 00:47:23,665 What is your other creative outlets? 985 00:47:23,665 --> 00:47:24,865 Let's talk about that for a moment. 986 00:47:25,455 --> 00:47:28,665 - Okay, so I've always considered myself a pretty creative 987 00:47:28,665 --> 00:47:31,925 person, but I really stuck to writing. 988 00:47:32,345 --> 00:47:35,645 My mom was a wonderful, wonderful artist. She was a painter. 989 00:47:36,025 --> 00:47:39,365 And then, you know, my husband goes, 990 00:47:39,545 --> 00:47:41,525 he is like constantly going to improv. 991 00:47:41,545 --> 00:47:44,645 So he goes to improv, as you know, as a theater 992 00:47:44,645 --> 00:47:46,725 that does unscripted plays. 993 00:47:46,865 --> 00:47:49,485 And it's usually long form plays or genre plays. 994 00:47:49,595 --> 00:47:52,245 It's not, you know, like joke after joke after joke. 995 00:47:52,785 --> 00:47:55,365 So I found myself getting like a little jealous 996 00:47:55,835 --> 00:47:58,885 that he was doing that and wishing that I could do it. 997 00:47:58,905 --> 00:48:01,725 And then I thought, wait a second, I can do that. 998 00:48:01,985 --> 00:48:05,125 Why don't I sign up? And so I started taking class at Inpro. 999 00:48:05,125 --> 00:48:08,445 So that's one creative thing I'm, uh, doing. 1000 00:48:08,755 --> 00:48:11,925 Another thing is I always wished that I could play guitar 1001 00:48:12,665 --> 00:48:14,165 and I picked it up a few times, 1002 00:48:14,985 --> 00:48:17,645 but I never really, I never stuck with it. 1003 00:48:17,665 --> 00:48:21,085 Or the class was over or the guy moved away or whatever. 1004 00:48:21,265 --> 00:48:25,045 And then I just, I, uh, found a teacher 1005 00:48:26,025 --> 00:48:29,325 and I just, I've been learning guitar for a year 1006 00:48:29,325 --> 00:48:30,445 and a half now. 1007 00:48:30,905 --> 00:48:32,605 And then the other thing is ceramics. 1008 00:48:32,605 --> 00:48:34,045 Like I always wanted to do ceramics. 1009 00:48:34,125 --> 00:48:36,725 I just felt like I kept wondering why I'm 1010 00:48:36,725 --> 00:48:38,565 not doing these things. 1011 00:48:38,595 --> 00:48:42,165 Like everything is not, doesn't exist in the future. 1012 00:48:42,585 --> 00:48:44,245 You have to make it exist now. 1013 00:48:44,945 --> 00:48:48,485 So I'm super happy with my prolific creative. 1014 00:48:48,765 --> 00:48:52,365 I think I glazed like 24 pieces this week or something. 1015 00:48:52,465 --> 00:48:55,645 So it's a lot of nature based ceramics that I'm doing 1016 00:48:55,745 --> 00:48:56,965 and super into now. 1017 00:48:57,565 --> 00:48:58,625 - And you've got an Etsy store 1018 00:48:58,625 --> 00:49:00,425 - Called Art and Intrigue Studio. 1019 00:49:01,865 --> 00:49:04,715 - Love it. That's wonderful. Congrats on that. Thank 1020 00:49:04,715 --> 00:49:05,395 - You. Thank you. 1021 00:49:06,265 --> 00:49:10,235 - What are your socials for people to find you? Oh, 1022 00:49:10,815 --> 00:49:14,915 - I'm on, uh, Instagram at, uh, Vanessa McGrady. 1023 00:49:15,415 --> 00:49:17,115 - And do you have a website? - I do. 1024 00:49:17,115 --> 00:49:18,475 It's vanessa mcgrady.com. 1025 00:49:19,025 --> 00:49:22,355 - Yeah, I thought you did, but always like to ask 1026 00:49:22,695 --> 00:49:25,515 and I put links on hey human podcast.com for people 1027 00:49:25,535 --> 00:49:28,115 to find all of the stuff we talk about easily 1028 00:49:28,415 --> 00:49:29,515 and accessibly. 1029 00:49:30,205 --> 00:49:33,115 Thank you so much. I just, I find you delightful. 1030 00:49:33,425 --> 00:49:35,155 Anytime you wanna hang out, you let me know. 1031 00:49:36,075 --> 00:49:37,235 I, I, oh my God, 1032 00:49:37,695 --> 00:49:40,795 - We talking, I actually saw our mutual friend Charles the 1033 00:49:40,795 --> 00:49:43,475 other day and I'm like, she's so interesting. 1034 00:49:43,475 --> 00:49:45,155 Like, what can't she do? 1035 00:49:45,735 --> 00:49:48,395 But also, I mean, you're an artist, you're a musician, 1036 00:49:48,815 --> 00:49:50,955 you're a podcaster, you're a writer. 1037 00:49:51,315 --> 00:49:52,755 I mean, you have so many things you do 1038 00:49:53,415 --> 00:49:54,515 and you're a nice person. 1039 00:49:54,665 --> 00:49:57,435 Like, you're like a truly, genuinely like caring, 1040 00:49:57,435 --> 00:49:58,635 loving, beautiful person. 1041 00:49:59,095 --> 00:50:01,835 So I'm so happy I got a chance to know you. Well, 1042 00:50:01,925 --> 00:50:02,925 - Right back at you. 1043 00:50:02,925 --> 00:50:04,835 Thank you for that. I appreciate it. 1044 00:50:04,895 --> 00:50:08,555 You're a miracle , and so am I. Yay . 1045 00:50:09,045 --> 00:50:11,395 Thank you for listening everybody. Thank you Vanessa. 1046 00:50:11,775 --> 00:50:13,595 And I will be sending you a text 1047 00:50:13,595 --> 00:50:15,275 so I can go get lunch. . 1048 00:50:15,735 --> 00:50:17,435 - Thanks for having me. Bye 1049 00:50:17,815 --> 00:50:18,815 - Bye. 1050 00:50:21,505 --> 00:50:25,115 Rate review and subscribe to Hey, human podcast on iTunes 1051 00:50:25,135 --> 00:50:26,795 or wherever you get your 1052 00:50:27,745 --> 00:50:28,745 - Thanks. 1053 00:50:28,745 --> 00:50:28,925 Bye.