1 00:00:08,105 --> 00:00:08,605 - Hey, humans. 2 00:00:08,815 --> 00:00:10,605 How's it going? Susan, Ruth here. 3 00:00:10,625 --> 00:00:12,645 Thanks for listening to another episode 4 00:00:13,145 --> 00:00:14,485 of Hey Human Podcast. 5 00:00:16,075 --> 00:00:20,805 This is episode 399, and my guest is Harry Bettman. 6 00:00:21,335 --> 00:00:25,165 Harry was a young boy when his family made their escape from 7 00:00:25,315 --> 00:00:26,845 Nazi Germany under Hitler. 8 00:00:27,465 --> 00:00:28,965 He recounts his experiences 9 00:00:29,105 --> 00:00:31,845 and discusses his family, including parents, Irma 10 00:00:31,845 --> 00:00:34,725 and Arthur Grandparents, Marie and Sigmund, 11 00:00:35,305 --> 00:00:37,085 and his younger brother, Ralph. 12 00:00:37,435 --> 00:00:40,285 Gary Bettman, Harry's son is also joining us. 13 00:00:40,785 --> 00:00:44,485 You might recall that I interviewed Gary a few weeks back. 14 00:00:45,105 --> 00:00:46,445 His episode's really wonderful, 15 00:00:46,625 --> 00:00:48,045 so definitely check that one out. 16 00:00:48,755 --> 00:00:50,925 Many of us are descended from people 17 00:00:50,945 --> 00:00:52,845 who experienced the extraordinary 18 00:00:53,025 --> 00:00:54,685 or endured the unimaginable, 19 00:00:55,305 --> 00:00:58,605 and it's really important to me to make sure 20 00:00:58,605 --> 00:01:01,165 that their stories aren't lost to time and history. 21 00:01:02,345 --> 00:01:05,245 I'm honored that Harry shared his childhood memories with me 22 00:01:05,305 --> 00:01:08,405 and us, and at nearly 100 years of age, 23 00:01:08,695 --> 00:01:11,325 Harry shows no signs of slowing down. 24 00:01:11,955 --> 00:01:15,045 He's currently working with and helping autistic kids. 25 00:01:15,745 --> 00:01:18,045 It was such a delight to talk with Harry. 26 00:01:18,365 --> 00:01:22,485 I love talking with older people of a certain generation, 27 00:01:23,305 --> 00:01:28,005 and I'm always in awe, honestly, a 28 00:01:28,005 --> 00:01:29,605 that, that they're still around. 29 00:01:29,795 --> 00:01:32,125 It's, it's a feat unto it. It's itself. 30 00:01:32,585 --> 00:01:35,885 And the fact that, I don't know, 31 00:01:36,405 --> 00:01:37,765 I think about like my dad 32 00:01:38,025 --> 00:01:42,165 and a lot of people I know who are in their later years 33 00:01:42,425 --> 00:01:44,445 and just their stories. 34 00:01:44,555 --> 00:01:48,005 There's so many great stories from their lifetime, 35 00:01:48,345 --> 00:01:51,805 and I, I say this often on this show, 36 00:01:51,985 --> 00:01:53,005 I'm gonna say it again. 37 00:01:53,505 --> 00:01:56,245 If you get the chance to record your parents, 38 00:01:56,555 --> 00:01:59,365 your grandparents, interview them style, you know, like, 39 00:01:59,365 --> 00:02:02,565 like this is, and find out their stories, 40 00:02:02,615 --> 00:02:04,725 stuff you maybe you never knew about. 41 00:02:05,035 --> 00:02:08,285 It's wild when people start opening up and, 42 00:02:08,545 --> 00:02:10,365 and really recounting their life. 43 00:02:10,715 --> 00:02:12,725 There's magic, you know? 44 00:02:13,345 --> 00:02:16,445 Anyway, I'm waxing poetic, but you get the idea. 45 00:02:16,665 --> 00:02:18,765 I'm really excited that Harriet was on the show, 46 00:02:18,765 --> 00:02:23,365 really thankful to Gary for helping to , helping 47 00:02:23,505 --> 00:02:25,325 to get it all going on. 48 00:02:25,325 --> 00:02:27,565 There was some technical difficulties in the beginning 49 00:02:28,065 --> 00:02:31,165 trying to get the zooms working and all of that, 50 00:02:31,305 --> 00:02:34,205 but we prevailed and this is the result. 51 00:02:35,255 --> 00:02:37,965 Check out, Hey, human podcast.com for links, 52 00:02:37,965 --> 00:02:39,885 and to learn more about my guests in the show, 53 00:02:40,095 --> 00:02:42,445 check out Susan ruth.com to learn about me 54 00:02:42,445 --> 00:02:43,925 and my other artistic endeavors. 55 00:02:44,385 --> 00:02:48,285 Follow Susan Ruths and hey, human podcast on social media. 56 00:02:48,915 --> 00:02:51,845 Find my music on Spotify, apple music, Amazon music, 57 00:02:52,205 --> 00:02:55,085 wherever you get your music rate, review and subscribe to. 58 00:02:55,185 --> 00:02:57,005 Hey, human podcast on iTunes 59 00:02:57,005 --> 00:02:58,525 or wherever you get your podcast. 60 00:02:58,755 --> 00:03:01,565 It's on iHeart, it's on Stitcher, 61 00:03:01,675 --> 00:03:03,485 it's on Blurby, it's everywhere. 62 00:03:03,665 --> 00:03:07,525 So definitely wherever you want to do it. Do it. 63 00:03:08,305 --> 00:03:10,805 Sounds good. Thank you for listening. 64 00:03:11,505 --> 00:03:14,925 Be well, be love and stay healthy. 65 00:03:15,315 --> 00:03:17,045 Okay, here we go. 66 00:03:20,015 --> 00:03:22,285 Harry Bettman, welcome to Hey, human. 67 00:03:23,495 --> 00:03:25,525 - Thank you very much. Glad to be here. 68 00:03:25,585 --> 00:03:28,925 And I'm hope hopeful that, uh, this thing works fine 69 00:03:28,945 --> 00:03:31,005 for the next, uh, 20 minutes or a half hour. 70 00:03:31,595 --> 00:03:33,085 - Yeah, well, uh, I do too. 71 00:03:33,245 --> 00:03:35,645 I think we finally figured all our technical difficulties. 72 00:03:35,645 --> 00:03:37,045 And Gary, uh, you're, 73 00:03:37,045 --> 00:03:39,245 you're being the interloper. I appreciate you being here 74 00:03:39,265 --> 00:03:40,265 - Too. 75 00:03:40,265 --> 00:03:43,205 Absolute. No, I'm here to add some, uh, little details in, 76 00:03:43,465 --> 00:03:45,485 in case my father skips a few. 77 00:03:45,485 --> 00:03:48,245 There's a a lot of moving parts to the whole odyssey 78 00:03:48,245 --> 00:03:49,565 of he's what he's about to share. 79 00:03:50,115 --> 00:03:52,965 - Yeah. - All right. Well, let's, let's jump in. Harry. 80 00:03:53,505 --> 00:03:56,485 Yes. Tell me where and when were you born? 81 00:03:57,325 --> 00:04:00,605 - I was born in Zandor, which is a suburb 82 00:04:00,905 --> 00:04:02,205 of j of, uh, Berlin. 83 00:04:02,865 --> 00:04:06,285 And I was born in 1929, March of 1929. 84 00:04:06,905 --> 00:04:08,765 - Do you remember much about your childhood? 85 00:04:09,165 --> 00:04:11,925 I mean, that was a time where there was a lot of upheaval. 86 00:04:11,925 --> 00:04:13,085 Beginning when 87 00:04:13,085 --> 00:04:15,365 - We left Germany, just to back up a minute. 88 00:04:15,625 --> 00:04:17,485 We left Germany in 1933. 89 00:04:17,585 --> 00:04:20,365 At that point, I was four years old, not a brother 90 00:04:20,915 --> 00:04:22,045 born, and he was two. 91 00:04:22,465 --> 00:04:24,325 My brother was two years younger than I was, 92 00:04:24,385 --> 00:04:25,485 two and a half years younger. 93 00:04:26,025 --> 00:04:29,205 So he of course never remembered anything 94 00:04:29,205 --> 00:04:30,445 because he was just too young. 95 00:04:30,605 --> 00:04:33,085 I have certain memories of certain things, 96 00:04:33,535 --> 00:04:35,445 which some are very poignant 97 00:04:35,785 --> 00:04:37,925 and others, uh, are just what, 98 00:04:37,955 --> 00:04:40,805 what a young person would remember at that age. 99 00:04:41,105 --> 00:04:43,085 By the way, all these things 100 00:04:43,115 --> 00:04:45,925 that I've been doing now since we started this whole thing, 101 00:04:46,305 --> 00:04:49,045 uh, certain memories came up 102 00:04:49,045 --> 00:04:51,605 that I really never, uh, encountered. 103 00:04:51,765 --> 00:04:56,205 I never thought of, uh, as an example, when I was, 104 00:04:56,945 --> 00:04:57,965 uh, three 105 00:04:57,965 --> 00:04:59,925 and a half years old, my grandmother 106 00:04:59,985 --> 00:05:02,365 who lived in another area, which I'll get to later, 107 00:05:02,945 --> 00:05:04,765 was visiting us in, in Berlin, 108 00:05:05,505 --> 00:05:08,965 and I was walking on a promenade with her, uh, 109 00:05:09,505 --> 00:05:10,565 un in Linden. 110 00:05:10,625 --> 00:05:12,925 Was, is the name of the, uh, the promenade. 111 00:05:12,995 --> 00:05:14,205 It's, of course it's still there. 112 00:05:14,665 --> 00:05:16,445 And pro it was a prominent road, 113 00:05:17,025 --> 00:05:21,445 and there was a, uh, an auto automobile parade coming by, 114 00:05:22,065 --> 00:05:24,605 and I looked to see, because there was a lot of noise 115 00:05:24,625 --> 00:05:26,685 and a lot of people yelling and cheering, I looked 116 00:05:27,105 --> 00:05:29,085 and I saw a open car 117 00:05:29,475 --> 00:05:34,125 with a man standing in the car waving to the people who at 118 00:05:34,125 --> 00:05:36,805 that point had, uh, congregated on that road. 119 00:05:37,425 --> 00:05:41,325 And as I was looking at him, my grandmother took me 120 00:05:41,545 --> 00:05:43,605 and turned my head away and said, don't look. 121 00:05:43,945 --> 00:05:46,885 And it turned out to be Hitler, out of Hitler. 122 00:05:47,265 --> 00:05:50,805 And, uh, that somehow has stood in my state of my mind 123 00:05:50,805 --> 00:05:54,365 because of the fear, obviously, even at that early moment 124 00:05:54,865 --> 00:05:58,605 of, of seeing this, this, this, this, this murderer. 125 00:05:58,835 --> 00:06:01,485 Getting back to the original, uh, story 126 00:06:01,485 --> 00:06:02,885 that I wanted to mention to you. 127 00:06:03,425 --> 00:06:06,725 We lived, we lived in, as I said, in 128 00:06:07,345 --> 00:06:12,085 and, uh, my, um, mother's parents in the, 129 00:06:12,085 --> 00:06:14,565 in the house that, uh, that we lived in. 130 00:06:14,745 --> 00:06:17,645 My mother's parents died prior to my, 131 00:06:17,825 --> 00:06:19,685 my birth, so I didn't know them. 132 00:06:20,425 --> 00:06:22,885 My father had, uh, parents 133 00:06:23,025 --> 00:06:27,485 who lived in a town about a hundred miles from Berlin in a, 134 00:06:27,505 --> 00:06:29,525 uh, in a small town in Bavaria. 135 00:06:30,225 --> 00:06:33,085 The reason I mention that is my mother, uh, 136 00:06:33,085 --> 00:06:37,085 came from a very wealthy home and was the only daughter. 137 00:06:37,865 --> 00:06:41,965 My father, on the other hand, came from a small town, 138 00:06:42,215 --> 00:06:46,245 which was a typical middle class type of a town. 139 00:06:46,355 --> 00:06:47,405 Town was six 140 00:06:47,405 --> 00:06:52,125 or 8,000 people in the latter part of 1933, of course, 141 00:06:52,205 --> 00:06:55,285 before we left, I was in the nursery school. 142 00:06:56,105 --> 00:07:00,445 And, uh, my par my parents were notified 143 00:07:00,515 --> 00:07:03,605 that I could no longer come to nursery school 144 00:07:03,795 --> 00:07:07,885 because, uh, Jewish Jews were not, uh, welcome. 145 00:07:08,545 --> 00:07:12,765 So of obviously, I, I left that, uh, portion of it, 146 00:07:13,105 --> 00:07:16,165 and that really, I think, convinced everybody 147 00:07:16,225 --> 00:07:19,045 or started to convince everybody exactly what was going on. 148 00:07:19,185 --> 00:07:21,685 My father realized what was happening. 149 00:07:22,025 --> 00:07:23,445 By the way, my parents, my mother 150 00:07:23,545 --> 00:07:24,725 was 20 years old at the time. 151 00:07:25,025 --> 00:07:28,445 My father was 27. So there, there were basically kids. 152 00:07:29,105 --> 00:07:31,645 We were young people at that, up to that point, 153 00:07:31,645 --> 00:07:32,965 facing a wonderful future 154 00:07:32,965 --> 00:07:36,765 because the financial, uh, situation was, was wonderful. 155 00:07:37,105 --> 00:07:38,805 And, uh, everything was good. 156 00:07:39,745 --> 00:07:41,485 People in Germany at that time, 157 00:07:41,485 --> 00:07:43,805 especially the Jewish people in Germany at that time, 158 00:07:44,455 --> 00:07:45,525 loved Berlin. 159 00:07:45,635 --> 00:07:48,525 They loved Germany, and Germany loved them. 160 00:07:48,995 --> 00:07:53,125 They were very happy. They, they were Germans and, uh, 161 00:07:53,425 --> 00:07:54,885 and then Jews secondary, 162 00:07:54,905 --> 00:07:59,205 and most, in most Americans are Americans first, 163 00:07:59,305 --> 00:08:01,165 and Jews se secondary. 164 00:08:01,705 --> 00:08:05,805 So, uh, it was, it was a feeling of comfort 165 00:08:06,155 --> 00:08:10,405 that most Jews had in Germany up to this point. 166 00:08:10,685 --> 00:08:12,965 - A lot of the Jews served in World War I, along 167 00:08:13,075 --> 00:08:15,045 with the German as Germans. Correct? 168 00:08:15,885 --> 00:08:17,965 - Absolutely. And, and, and proudly so, 169 00:08:17,965 --> 00:08:19,685 because that, that was their country. 170 00:08:19,715 --> 00:08:21,325 They were proud of their country. They loved it. 171 00:08:21,425 --> 00:08:23,845 But of course, uh, you know, we don't have 172 00:08:23,845 --> 00:08:25,005 to, we, we all know what 173 00:08:25,285 --> 00:08:26,285 - Happened. 174 00:08:26,285 --> 00:08:30,125 In fact, Susan, to to that point there, there were thousands 175 00:08:30,185 --> 00:08:32,525 of Jews who died for the Kaiser. 176 00:08:33,265 --> 00:08:35,565 - That's right, - Uh, in the first war. 177 00:08:35,665 --> 00:08:39,405 And in fact, that the top aviation world is called the Blue 178 00:08:39,545 --> 00:08:43,165 Max, and that was given to the very best 179 00:08:43,265 --> 00:08:44,725 of the aviators. 180 00:08:45,625 --> 00:08:50,285 And there was a Jewish German pilot named Wilhem 181 00:08:50,395 --> 00:08:53,085 Frankel, who won the Blue Max. 182 00:08:53,115 --> 00:08:55,405 He's the only Jewish pilot in the first war 183 00:08:55,875 --> 00:08:57,605 that actually won that award. 184 00:08:57,705 --> 00:09:01,805 So the Jews served in big numbers honorably in the first 185 00:09:01,905 --> 00:09:04,005 war, all the more astonishing, considering 186 00:09:04,005 --> 00:09:05,725 what was gonna happen 20 years later. 187 00:09:07,105 --> 00:09:10,325 - As a matter of fact, my great grandfather did serve, 188 00:09:10,785 --> 00:09:12,845 and I don't know the details of his service, 189 00:09:12,985 --> 00:09:15,845 and I don't know what, what rank he became, 190 00:09:16,185 --> 00:09:18,405 but he served and was wounded. 191 00:09:18,985 --> 00:09:20,485 But I didn't know much about that 192 00:09:20,485 --> 00:09:24,645 because that information really wasn't passed along to me. 193 00:09:24,725 --> 00:09:26,885 I guess I was too young, or there were other things 194 00:09:26,885 --> 00:09:29,525 that became, uh, more prevalent and and so on. 195 00:09:30,065 --> 00:09:31,925 - And so your father was starting 196 00:09:31,945 --> 00:09:33,405 to see the writing on the wall. 197 00:09:33,435 --> 00:09:35,205 They were telling little Jewish children, 198 00:09:35,275 --> 00:09:36,765 they couldn't come to nursery school. 199 00:09:37,025 --> 00:09:38,445 - Yes. Yes. And, 200 00:09:38,545 --> 00:09:40,685 and following that, shortly thereafter, 201 00:09:41,225 --> 00:09:45,405 my father received a visit from a high school friend of his, 202 00:09:45,745 --> 00:09:48,925 and this is again, in the early part of 1933. 203 00:09:49,505 --> 00:09:52,245 My father received a visit from a friend 204 00:09:52,245 --> 00:09:54,725 of a high school friend of his, who is now a Nazi 205 00:09:55,095 --> 00:09:57,125 - Party member, - A party member, 206 00:09:57,145 --> 00:10:00,205 or some kind of a important, someone in the Nazi party. 207 00:10:00,325 --> 00:10:02,365 I dunno if it was a, so a, uh, military, 208 00:10:02,705 --> 00:10:03,925 but, uh, whatever it was, 209 00:10:03,925 --> 00:10:05,285 he was connected with the Nazi party. 210 00:10:05,785 --> 00:10:08,205 And, uh, he said to my father, you have 211 00:10:08,205 --> 00:10:10,445 to leave Germany, Germany immediately. 212 00:10:10,445 --> 00:10:12,045 You have to leave Berlin immediately, 213 00:10:12,195 --> 00:10:16,125 because they're coming to get all the rich Jewish men, 214 00:10:16,185 --> 00:10:18,445 and whatever they do with them, incarcerate them 215 00:10:18,505 --> 00:10:22,125 or threaten them or to take their money or whatever. 216 00:10:22,505 --> 00:10:25,965 So my father, at that very moment, I mean, that, that day, 217 00:10:26,155 --> 00:10:30,325 that hour got into his car and drove to Switzerland. 218 00:10:30,385 --> 00:10:31,805 My parents were skiers, 219 00:10:32,105 --> 00:10:35,605 and they had a, uh, they had a ski house in Switzerland. 220 00:10:35,945 --> 00:10:38,525 My father got into his car carrying 221 00:10:38,635 --> 00:10:42,005 what he just could carry in his pockets and a, and a 222 00:10:42,005 --> 00:10:45,845 and a small bag, and drove to, uh, Switzerland, 223 00:10:46,115 --> 00:10:50,005 because, uh, he was told that, of course, uh, he was, had 224 00:10:50,005 --> 00:10:52,525 to stay away for a few weeks until this thing cooled off. 225 00:10:53,105 --> 00:10:55,765 My mother subsequently, shortly thereafter, joined him, 226 00:10:56,465 --> 00:10:57,485 uh, secretly. 227 00:10:58,145 --> 00:11:01,165 And, uh, they planned the escape from Germany. 228 00:11:01,345 --> 00:11:03,085 At that point, my mother was convinced, 229 00:11:03,105 --> 00:11:04,725 but by the way, I don't know if I've just mentioned it, 230 00:11:05,305 --> 00:11:08,725 my mother thought that she was, she was wealthy, 231 00:11:09,265 --> 00:11:10,325 and she was German. 232 00:11:10,785 --> 00:11:14,405 And she said she thought that possibly this whole thing may, 233 00:11:14,745 --> 00:11:15,845 uh, pass by. 234 00:11:15,905 --> 00:11:17,685 My father was convinced it wouldn't. 235 00:11:18,345 --> 00:11:22,085 So, uh, he was strong enough in his will to eventually 236 00:11:23,085 --> 00:11:24,605 convince her of what was happening. 237 00:11:24,605 --> 00:11:26,405 And of course, it didn't take too much to convince, 238 00:11:26,405 --> 00:11:29,525 because, uh, things started to go downhill 239 00:11:29,525 --> 00:11:32,365 for all the Jews in, in Germany, uh, the, this, 240 00:11:32,465 --> 00:11:35,645 the businesses that they had were, uh, robbed, 241 00:11:36,185 --> 00:11:38,445 stones were thrown, and glass was brought. Did 242 00:11:38,445 --> 00:11:40,405 - That happen at the, at grandma 243 00:11:40,465 --> 00:11:42,445 and Grandpa's store, where they were? 244 00:11:42,945 --> 00:11:46,765 Yes. So, 'cause it explain how that they had the store, 245 00:11:46,765 --> 00:11:48,285 and this was the height of the depression. 246 00:11:48,945 --> 00:11:51,645 The early thirties times were bad all over the world, 247 00:11:51,905 --> 00:11:53,445 and the store was vandalized. 248 00:11:53,715 --> 00:11:56,205 - Well, it was vandalized because of the religious factor. 249 00:11:56,415 --> 00:11:58,285 - Right. But people were 250 00:11:58,665 --> 00:12:01,405 as appreciably even more desperate at that time, 251 00:12:02,645 --> 00:12:03,645 - Apparently. 252 00:12:03,645 --> 00:12:05,885 So of course, the, the, it was the beginning of the, uh, 253 00:12:05,905 --> 00:12:07,765 of depression, the world. 254 00:12:08,245 --> 00:12:11,205 Absolutely. So that combined with the racial 255 00:12:11,545 --> 00:12:14,125 and religious problem, really, uh, 256 00:12:14,315 --> 00:12:15,845 created a tremendous problem. 257 00:12:16,425 --> 00:12:20,725 And a again, you know, I just wanted to say one thing. 258 00:12:20,795 --> 00:12:23,885 This, this whole story that we have that we're talking about 259 00:12:25,065 --> 00:12:27,525 has to do with really three, three things. 260 00:12:27,905 --> 00:12:31,965 We are talking about fear, insecurity, and resolve. 261 00:12:32,265 --> 00:12:34,765 That's what people went through. 262 00:12:35,025 --> 00:12:36,085 And I can't imagine, 263 00:12:36,785 --> 00:12:40,925 and most of us can't, how it feels to be in your twenties, 264 00:12:41,515 --> 00:12:46,325 have a family with two children and have to suddenly get up 265 00:12:46,465 --> 00:12:50,725 and just leave everything behind, which they had 266 00:12:50,725 --> 00:12:53,405 to do every, except of course, what they could sell 267 00:12:54,305 --> 00:12:55,845 and what they could smuggle, 268 00:12:56,145 --> 00:12:59,165 but leave your whole life behind at that age 269 00:12:59,505 --> 00:13:02,285 and be able to do it, uh, successfully. 270 00:13:02,665 --> 00:13:06,725 Now, uh, in addition to our leaving, to my father's leaving, 271 00:13:06,825 --> 00:13:09,285 he said he wouldn't leave without his parents. 272 00:13:10,065 --> 00:13:11,885 So his parents were at that point, 273 00:13:12,565 --> 00:13:13,925 considered, you know, older people. 274 00:13:13,925 --> 00:13:17,285 They were in their fifties. So at that point, my father 275 00:13:17,825 --> 00:13:20,205 was able to convince his mother 276 00:13:20,225 --> 00:13:24,005 and father to sell their house and their belongings, 277 00:13:24,305 --> 00:13:25,445 and join us to leave. 278 00:13:25,445 --> 00:13:28,165 Otherwise, he said he's not going without them, which 279 00:13:28,165 --> 00:13:30,125 of course, eventually acquiesced. 280 00:13:30,125 --> 00:13:33,085 It wasn't easy. But they also thought this 281 00:13:33,085 --> 00:13:34,205 thing would, would go by 282 00:13:34,705 --> 00:13:37,165 - How long did the planning that grandma 283 00:13:37,265 --> 00:13:39,405 and grandpa, how many weeks 284 00:13:39,465 --> 00:13:43,765 or months as they were meeting, uh, uh, skiing their, 285 00:13:43,925 --> 00:13:47,325 their rendezvous, skiing, and how did that all go down? 286 00:13:47,325 --> 00:13:49,565 Because you had to get rid of, they had to get rid 287 00:13:49,565 --> 00:13:50,645 of the business also. 288 00:13:50,645 --> 00:13:53,995 Right. So this, this has worked, this, how many weeks 289 00:13:54,055 --> 00:13:56,035 or months in the planning is this escape? 290 00:13:56,945 --> 00:14:00,475 - Well, I can tell you by, by backing up a little bit, 291 00:14:00,475 --> 00:14:04,475 because this whole, the, we left in, in, in the 1933, 292 00:14:04,535 --> 00:14:06,555 the latter part of 1933, 293 00:14:06,935 --> 00:14:09,515 and the whole thing really, uh, came 294 00:14:09,515 --> 00:14:12,715 to a head in the earlier part of, so I would say 295 00:14:13,675 --> 00:14:15,915 probably five or six months, the whole thing had 296 00:14:15,915 --> 00:14:17,955 to be taken, had to be done. And 297 00:14:17,955 --> 00:14:21,995 - Just to contextualize for the listeners that Hitler there, 298 00:14:22,015 --> 00:14:25,115 people were starving, people were poor, 299 00:14:25,575 --> 00:14:30,395 and Hitler found scapegoats in the Jewish people 300 00:14:30,495 --> 00:14:32,235 who were, some were very prosperous, 301 00:14:32,235 --> 00:14:33,275 and they said, look at all these 302 00:14:33,275 --> 00:14:34,355 people who have all this money. 303 00:14:34,355 --> 00:14:36,235 They're terrible. They've stolen all your money. 304 00:14:36,815 --> 00:14:38,395 And that was his rhetoric. 305 00:14:38,895 --> 00:14:40,515 - That's right. That's exactly right. 306 00:14:41,135 --> 00:14:43,075 The only thing is that he did promise, 307 00:14:43,255 --> 00:14:46,715 and this this deviates a little bit from my story, uh, 308 00:14:47,335 --> 00:14:51,645 but he did promise Germans, all Germans, other than 309 00:14:51,645 --> 00:14:54,365 of course, the Jews and, and, and the homosexuals 310 00:14:54,365 --> 00:14:56,325 and the, the Catholics and so on. 311 00:14:56,465 --> 00:14:58,165 But he did promise Germany a better 312 00:14:58,165 --> 00:14:59,925 Germany, and they believed it. 313 00:15:00,025 --> 00:15:03,485 You know, he was, he was a, he was a, a orator. 314 00:15:03,785 --> 00:15:05,125 He was a convincing individual, 315 00:15:05,615 --> 00:15:08,685 which we've had subsequently in different areas, 316 00:15:08,745 --> 00:15:10,685 in different countries, including ours. 317 00:15:11,305 --> 00:15:12,605 Uh, he was an orator, 318 00:15:12,625 --> 00:15:14,405 and he promised a better life, 319 00:15:14,435 --> 00:15:15,965 even though there was a depression, 320 00:15:16,625 --> 00:15:18,685 - He promised to make Germany great again. 321 00:15:19,045 --> 00:15:20,805 Hmm. Sound familiar? 322 00:15:21,265 --> 00:15:23,405 - That's exactly what I'm, I'm alluding to. 323 00:15:23,585 --> 00:15:24,645 It sounds very familiar 324 00:15:24,665 --> 00:15:29,165 and very frighteningly similar at, anyway, getting back. 325 00:15:29,625 --> 00:15:33,325 So the plans were made, uh, businesses were sold, 326 00:15:33,535 --> 00:15:36,685 properties were sold at a, at a great loss. 327 00:15:37,425 --> 00:15:40,405 And all the monies that were received 328 00:15:40,625 --> 00:15:44,845 for selling all these things had to be somehow worked on 329 00:15:44,905 --> 00:15:47,845 to be able to take with, there was, there was a limit to 330 00:15:47,845 --> 00:15:48,885 how much money you could take out. 331 00:15:48,885 --> 00:15:51,525 What I'm getting at is the money that they got 332 00:15:51,985 --> 00:15:53,245 for all these possessions 333 00:15:53,305 --> 00:15:56,005 and all these things that were sold, we turned, 334 00:15:56,275 --> 00:15:57,605 they turned into diamonds. 335 00:15:58,665 --> 00:16:01,125 And the diamonds are, were eventually, 336 00:16:01,425 --> 00:16:03,325 and I can give you the details on it, 337 00:16:03,385 --> 00:16:05,005 the diamonds were smuggled out. 338 00:16:05,745 --> 00:16:08,965 And that's what really allowed this entire trip 339 00:16:08,965 --> 00:16:12,005 that I'm going to mention to you, happened in those days, 340 00:16:12,725 --> 00:16:15,085 suitcases were made out of leather, uh, 341 00:16:15,315 --> 00:16:16,805 usually very fine leather, 342 00:16:17,145 --> 00:16:18,645 but it was always in two layers, 343 00:16:18,705 --> 00:16:20,725 an outer layer and an inner layer. 344 00:16:21,545 --> 00:16:24,685 Uh, what they did, what my parents did, was able 345 00:16:24,705 --> 00:16:26,165 to open up the layers 346 00:16:26,985 --> 00:16:30,845 and place the diamonds in between the layers of, of leather, 347 00:16:31,625 --> 00:16:32,805 sew them back up again 348 00:16:33,385 --> 00:16:36,245 and, uh, bring them, bring the suitcases 349 00:16:36,245 --> 00:16:37,685 to their original, uh, state. 350 00:16:38,185 --> 00:16:40,885 And there was no way of knowing what's in between. 351 00:16:41,025 --> 00:16:44,765 And of course, it was a, a very, uh, sophisticated way 352 00:16:44,765 --> 00:16:46,005 of smuggling in those days. 353 00:16:46,315 --> 00:16:48,845 - They used to go into their clothing as well, correct? 354 00:16:49,155 --> 00:16:51,205 - Well, the clothing was, was more difficult 355 00:16:51,205 --> 00:16:53,085 because, uh, there was a limit to 356 00:16:53,085 --> 00:16:54,765 how much clothing you could carry. 357 00:16:55,345 --> 00:16:57,845 Uh, there was a limit to how you could do it in clothing. 358 00:16:58,185 --> 00:16:59,685 The, the, the, the leather in 359 00:16:59,685 --> 00:17:02,285 between leather suitcases was a not ideal thing 360 00:17:02,285 --> 00:17:04,045 because it didn't show, 361 00:17:04,705 --> 00:17:07,925 and, uh, it wasn't looked for in clothing, you know, 362 00:17:07,925 --> 00:17:10,605 you get, you get searched and you get stripped and whatever, 363 00:17:10,905 --> 00:17:14,605 but in, in the, in the leather suitcase, uh, it dis it kind 364 00:17:14,605 --> 00:17:15,605 of disappears to the public. 365 00:17:16,035 --> 00:17:18,165 - Well, I actually thought from, to Susan's point, 366 00:17:18,165 --> 00:17:19,845 that there grandma did 367 00:17:20,365 --> 00:17:22,325 smuggle some things out in a coat 368 00:17:22,395 --> 00:17:23,845 once. A couple things too. 369 00:17:24,035 --> 00:17:25,845 - Yeah, she did in some clothing, 370 00:17:25,945 --> 00:17:28,765 but most of it was done through, uh, through, uh, 371 00:17:28,765 --> 00:17:30,125 leather suitcases. 372 00:17:30,225 --> 00:17:31,565 And don't forget, you know, when, 373 00:17:31,565 --> 00:17:34,205 when six people are traveling, you have a lot of suitcases. 374 00:17:34,345 --> 00:17:36,085 So anyway, the plans were made 375 00:17:37,065 --> 00:17:39,165 within a few months period of time. 376 00:17:39,665 --> 00:17:42,885 And my grandparents had sold everything that they had. 377 00:17:43,095 --> 00:17:45,205 Plans were made to come to America. 378 00:17:46,145 --> 00:17:50,165 Now, my grandmother had a nephew in Ma New York, 379 00:17:50,165 --> 00:17:52,605 which is Westchester County in New York State. 380 00:17:53,145 --> 00:17:57,965 Had a nephew there who was, was going to help us volunteer 381 00:17:57,965 --> 00:18:00,965 to give us as the, as much assistance, not financially, 382 00:18:01,025 --> 00:18:04,725 but to, to give us the information that was necessary 383 00:18:04,985 --> 00:18:06,125 as to how to come here. 384 00:18:06,865 --> 00:18:09,125 And the important thing to remember is in those days, 385 00:18:09,145 --> 00:18:11,765 we didn't have, we didn't have, uh, computers. 386 00:18:11,905 --> 00:18:13,925 We didn't have, uh, long distance telephones. 387 00:18:13,925 --> 00:18:15,445 Everything was done by Western Union. 388 00:18:15,865 --> 00:18:18,485 So the communication was also a problem. 389 00:18:18,905 --> 00:18:21,965 But through Western Union, he, he volunteered to give us 390 00:18:21,965 --> 00:18:25,845 as much assistance as possible, which by the way, he did. 391 00:18:26,465 --> 00:18:31,005 My father had a secretary who, a Jewish lady 392 00:18:31,465 --> 00:18:33,725 who also wanted to, uh, leave with us. 393 00:18:33,865 --> 00:18:38,005 And of course, she joined us in our, uh, plans. 394 00:18:39,145 --> 00:18:41,445 Uh, the thing is, what to do, where to go, 395 00:18:41,455 --> 00:18:44,445 until America opened the gates to us. 396 00:18:44,665 --> 00:18:45,805 And of course, in those days, 397 00:18:46,145 --> 00:18:48,205 the immigration was very stringent. 398 00:18:48,205 --> 00:18:50,645 The immigration laws in America are very stringent. 399 00:18:50,735 --> 00:18:53,245 There were only a certain amount of people were allowed in 400 00:18:53,705 --> 00:18:54,725 and so on and so forth. 401 00:18:54,825 --> 00:18:58,445 So we were rejected as far as an immediate, uh, acceptance. 402 00:18:58,785 --> 00:19:02,525 But in order to get out of Germany, we had to go someplace. 403 00:19:03,065 --> 00:19:06,245 Now, the only place that really, uh, was willing 404 00:19:06,305 --> 00:19:09,405 to accept people in those days, that was, 405 00:19:09,635 --> 00:19:13,485 that was within reason, distance reason was France. 406 00:19:14,185 --> 00:19:17,485 So we got, they, they were able to acquire visas, 407 00:19:18,265 --> 00:19:19,405 uh, for France. 408 00:19:19,785 --> 00:19:23,365 So we had a six month visa for all of us to go 409 00:19:23,365 --> 00:19:25,325 to France, which we did. 410 00:19:25,385 --> 00:19:28,685 We got the, by the time everything was packed up, 411 00:19:28,685 --> 00:19:31,645 and by the time everything was ready to go, the Visas 412 00:19:32,275 --> 00:19:35,285 took us to Paris, France, where we lived for six months, 413 00:19:35,855 --> 00:19:38,205 until the Visas there ran out. 414 00:19:38,425 --> 00:19:41,485 And we had to leave there because of the expiration. 415 00:19:41,505 --> 00:19:42,685 As I say, the Visas. 416 00:19:43,105 --> 00:19:46,645 The next stop was, was, uh, triste Italy, 417 00:19:47,055 --> 00:19:49,365 where we got a three month visa. 418 00:19:50,305 --> 00:19:52,405 So we stayed in, by the way, 419 00:19:52,405 --> 00:19:53,645 staying in these different places. 420 00:19:53,705 --> 00:19:55,725 It also always meant staying in a hotel. 421 00:19:56,385 --> 00:19:59,245 You couldn't, uh, rent the house. You couldn't rent rooms. 422 00:19:59,305 --> 00:20:00,405 It was, you never knew 423 00:20:00,405 --> 00:20:01,885 how long this whole thing was gonna be. 424 00:20:02,345 --> 00:20:03,685 So we went to Triste. 425 00:20:04,035 --> 00:20:07,125 They were able to get the visas for Tris for three months 426 00:20:07,535 --> 00:20:09,245 until the visas there ran out. 427 00:20:09,825 --> 00:20:12,605 And what to do then. Well, we had to go someplace. 428 00:20:12,865 --> 00:20:16,405 So they went, we went to Palestine at that time, 429 00:20:16,405 --> 00:20:18,405 under the rule of, uh, the British. 430 00:20:19,585 --> 00:20:24,165 And, uh, we landed by, we went to boat by boat from Tris 431 00:20:24,705 --> 00:20:25,885 to Palestine. 432 00:20:26,465 --> 00:20:30,205 We got off the boat, uh, moved into an apartment in, 433 00:20:30,265 --> 00:20:31,405 uh, in Haifa. 434 00:20:31,985 --> 00:20:35,165 The area was called Carmel, Mount Carmel. 435 00:20:35,625 --> 00:20:39,405 And we stayed there waiting again until, uh, 436 00:20:39,775 --> 00:20:41,165 being able to come to America. 437 00:20:41,545 --> 00:20:44,045 So this, this time it's 1934. 438 00:20:44,105 --> 00:20:47,405 At this point now, it's, now it's 1934. That's correct. 439 00:20:47,585 --> 00:20:50,085 - And you're still traveling? There's, there's seven of you. 440 00:20:50,755 --> 00:20:51,925 - Well, we were still traveling. 441 00:20:52,065 --> 00:20:54,005 - And what was the secretary's name again? 442 00:20:54,775 --> 00:20:59,605 - There? The name was, was Maria Zan, the six Batmans 443 00:20:59,605 --> 00:21:02,085 and Mar and Maria Marie Marie, the 444 00:21:02,345 --> 00:21:06,805 - The Nazi official, who alerted grandpa 445 00:21:07,305 --> 00:21:11,715 to, to get out right away as the plans were being made 446 00:21:11,735 --> 00:21:15,715 to sell things and plan this, basically this escape. 447 00:21:16,335 --> 00:21:19,075 Did he ever resurface, do you know, to either help? 448 00:21:19,475 --> 00:21:23,755 - I don't know, but I have a feeling that he became, uh, uh, 449 00:21:24,295 --> 00:21:27,435 he disappeared, so to speak, as well as my parents. 450 00:21:27,615 --> 00:21:29,515 In other words, the relationship disappeared 451 00:21:29,975 --> 00:21:30,995 and rightfully so, 452 00:21:30,995 --> 00:21:34,595 because, uh, they, no one wanna, no one wanted 453 00:21:34,595 --> 00:21:35,995 to get involved with anyone else. 454 00:21:36,135 --> 00:21:37,195 You know, this was something 455 00:21:37,195 --> 00:21:38,795 that they, everyone walked away from. 456 00:21:38,795 --> 00:21:41,635 After that he was felt responsible after what he did. 457 00:21:42,175 --> 00:21:43,875 And he didn't wanna get involved because 458 00:21:43,875 --> 00:21:45,595 otherwise, his, his future was in, 459 00:21:46,375 --> 00:21:50,195 - In the planning of the leaving, I guess there, there had 460 00:21:50,195 --> 00:21:51,915 to be a certain amount of secrecy. 461 00:21:51,975 --> 00:21:53,835 And yet, if you're selling a business 462 00:21:53,855 --> 00:21:56,235 and you're selling a home, how secret can that be? 463 00:21:56,895 --> 00:21:58,115 - That's exactly right. 464 00:21:58,175 --> 00:21:59,475 And that's why I mentioned to you 465 00:21:59,475 --> 00:22:04,195 before this, my parents lived in fear 466 00:22:04,455 --> 00:22:06,355 as a result of everything you just said. 467 00:22:06,775 --> 00:22:11,075 It was a, it was a 24 hour fear factor, 468 00:22:11,615 --> 00:22:14,475 uh, which living that way, I can't quite envision 469 00:22:14,475 --> 00:22:16,275 because I, I couldn't do that for a week. 470 00:22:16,495 --> 00:22:18,035 But they would did it for months. 471 00:22:18,215 --> 00:22:19,435 In fact, they did it for years 472 00:22:20,045 --> 00:22:21,475 until we finally arrived here. 473 00:22:21,815 --> 00:22:23,155 I'm trying to feel how it would be 474 00:22:23,335 --> 00:22:24,555 if I had to do this today. 475 00:22:24,555 --> 00:22:25,795 And I don't think I could do this. 476 00:22:26,215 --> 00:22:28,955 But, uh, as I said before, you have resolve, 477 00:22:28,955 --> 00:22:32,355 and you have, uh, uh, you have the will to go. 478 00:22:32,935 --> 00:22:35,515 - You moved around first to France and Italy. 479 00:22:35,515 --> 00:22:38,715 I mean, obviously Italy was not exactly friends to the Jews. 480 00:22:39,215 --> 00:22:40,795 No. And you were so young, 481 00:22:40,995 --> 00:22:42,995 I don't even know if you could answer this exactly. 482 00:22:43,215 --> 00:22:46,155 But as you're moving from place to place, 483 00:22:46,535 --> 00:22:50,955 and antisemitism is getting to a fever pitch, 484 00:22:51,625 --> 00:22:53,795 anti JW is getting to a fever pitch. 485 00:22:54,535 --> 00:22:57,755 How is your family reacting to that as you're moving around? 486 00:22:58,375 --> 00:22:59,995 Are you hiding while you're doing this, 487 00:23:00,135 --> 00:23:01,195 or are you out in the open? 488 00:23:02,255 --> 00:23:04,315 - No, no, we're out. They're out in the open. 489 00:23:04,575 --> 00:23:06,675 But they're not making themselves too obvious. 490 00:23:07,615 --> 00:23:10,875 In other words, uh, they didn't, they didn't go into town 491 00:23:11,015 --> 00:23:14,035 and go to a theater and that type of a thing. 492 00:23:14,215 --> 00:23:16,315 We stayed within certain limits 493 00:23:16,895 --> 00:23:18,435 and did not being too obvious. 494 00:23:18,655 --> 00:23:19,915 We did, they didn't hide, 495 00:23:20,255 --> 00:23:22,835 but they were always afraid of, uh, something happening. 496 00:23:22,865 --> 00:23:24,595 That, that's, that's the point I was making. 497 00:23:24,895 --> 00:23:27,755 So you kept a, what's the expression of low profile 498 00:23:28,375 --> 00:23:30,115 or as low profile as you possibly could? 499 00:23:30,545 --> 00:23:32,475 - Well, and then you're at a point too, dad, 500 00:23:32,475 --> 00:23:35,995 where you would be in kindergarten or preschool, 501 00:23:36,455 --> 00:23:38,035 and you couldn't, you couldn't go 502 00:23:38,035 --> 00:23:40,275 to school in those other countries, obviously, either 503 00:23:40,485 --> 00:23:41,915 until you got to Palestine. 504 00:23:42,995 --> 00:23:44,995 - Palestine. Again, I went to nursery school, 505 00:23:45,545 --> 00:23:47,365 but I don't remember much about it. 506 00:23:47,425 --> 00:23:49,765 And it was a very, really a short kind of thing. 507 00:23:49,825 --> 00:23:52,885 My, my grandmother became ill in Palestine, 508 00:23:52,885 --> 00:23:54,125 because the weather was terrible. 509 00:23:54,625 --> 00:23:56,965 She was older. Of course, in those days, if you were 50 510 00:23:56,965 --> 00:23:58,965 or 60 years old, you, you were pretty old. 511 00:23:59,285 --> 00:24:04,165 . So she became ill. Uh, it was a very unhappy place. 512 00:24:04,645 --> 00:24:07,965 A Palestine in those days was, was desert 513 00:24:08,785 --> 00:24:12,325 and heat, air conditioning, of course, was an unknown thing. 514 00:24:13,065 --> 00:24:15,645 Uh, money was always a concern. 515 00:24:15,985 --> 00:24:17,245 So there were lots of problems. 516 00:24:17,385 --> 00:24:20,325 And the, the being Jewish and Palestine didn't help 517 00:24:20,505 --> 00:24:21,845 - The British mandate. And 518 00:24:21,845 --> 00:24:24,405 - They weren't particularly friendly to Jews either. 519 00:24:24,465 --> 00:24:27,205 You know, there, there was a great deal of antisemitism, uh, 520 00:24:27,205 --> 00:24:28,565 amongst them in those days. 521 00:24:28,785 --> 00:24:31,325 The Brits, you mean? Yes, the British, yeah. 522 00:24:31,385 --> 00:24:34,005 The Bri and the British rule was, was a very, 523 00:24:34,145 --> 00:24:35,645 uh, uh, iron hand. 524 00:24:35,925 --> 00:24:38,765 I mean, they were very, uh, uh, very difficult people to, 525 00:24:39,025 --> 00:24:40,845 to, uh, to live under. 526 00:24:41,765 --> 00:24:46,165 'cause I remember one time we went to, to the beach in, in, 527 00:24:46,305 --> 00:24:49,885 in Haifa, and I saw, uh, 528 00:24:50,225 --> 00:24:54,685 crates upon crates of oranges floating from a ship 529 00:24:54,835 --> 00:24:59,285 that stood off, uh, approximately a half a mile floating up 530 00:24:59,405 --> 00:25:03,165 to the beach, people scrambling to open these crates 531 00:25:03,385 --> 00:25:06,125 of oranges and running away with the oranges. 532 00:25:06,425 --> 00:25:08,445 So apparently there was, these were, 533 00:25:08,445 --> 00:25:10,365 these were Jewish, uh, traitors. 534 00:25:10,985 --> 00:25:13,645 So apparently there was, uh, there was some type of a, uh, 535 00:25:13,725 --> 00:25:15,165 insurrection that took place. 536 00:25:15,625 --> 00:25:17,805 And the, the ship was attacked, 537 00:25:18,065 --> 00:25:20,245 and the oranges crates were thrown overboard, 538 00:25:20,465 --> 00:25:22,525 and they floated to the, uh, to the beach. 539 00:25:22,825 --> 00:25:26,165 So apparently that was also a, a, uh, uh, 540 00:25:26,745 --> 00:25:28,885 an anti-Jewish, uh, type of, uh, 541 00:25:29,015 --> 00:25:31,245 thing that, that took place. I don't remember that. 542 00:25:31,275 --> 00:25:34,205 - Well, we know, we know actually what, after the war ended, 543 00:25:34,305 --> 00:25:37,685 and so many Holocaust survivors wanted to get to Palestine, 544 00:25:38,025 --> 00:25:39,565 hoping it would become Israel, 545 00:25:39,865 --> 00:25:43,085 and the British had the blockade, and they That's right. 546 00:25:43,085 --> 00:25:44,965 There's a lot of the whole Exodus story. 547 00:25:45,695 --> 00:25:48,155 - That's right. Meanwhile, this, the secretary 548 00:25:48,155 --> 00:25:49,955 that we talked about, my father's secretary, 549 00:25:49,975 --> 00:25:52,435 we talked about, became homesick for Germany, 550 00:25:53,415 --> 00:25:55,315 and, uh, went back to Germany 551 00:25:55,895 --> 00:25:57,835 and ended up being murdered in Auschwitz. 552 00:25:58,375 --> 00:26:02,995 So, which was also a, uh, very difficult thing for, for us. 553 00:26:03,375 --> 00:26:05,795 - Did she not realize what she was going back to? 554 00:26:06,735 --> 00:26:08,835 - She didn't think that she thought 555 00:26:08,835 --> 00:26:09,955 that things would improve. 556 00:26:10,055 --> 00:26:12,035 She was so homesick for her family. 557 00:26:12,675 --> 00:26:14,195 Remember, she came by herself. 558 00:26:14,255 --> 00:26:15,835 So her family was still in Germany, 559 00:26:16,495 --> 00:26:18,555 and she became so homesick for her family 560 00:26:18,695 --> 00:26:22,155 and for what she had at that point, that, uh, 561 00:26:22,255 --> 00:26:23,835 she went back and took a chance. 562 00:26:23,935 --> 00:26:28,475 And unfortunately, uh, was, was murdered. That's 563 00:26:28,475 --> 00:26:30,075 - The quintessential bad decision. 564 00:26:30,615 --> 00:26:33,035 - You know, something, Gary, this whole thing, 565 00:26:33,585 --> 00:26:36,355 life itself is, is, is a matter of decisions. 566 00:26:36,775 --> 00:26:38,835 You make good ones and you make bad ones. Right. 567 00:26:39,095 --> 00:26:42,395 And, uh, she made a bad decision, unfortunately. 568 00:26:43,145 --> 00:26:47,525 But any, anyway, finally, we, um, received word 569 00:26:48,075 --> 00:26:50,165 that we could come to America 570 00:26:50,985 --> 00:26:55,005 and, uh, under, with certain provisions, uh, my parents had 571 00:26:55,005 --> 00:26:59,365 to put up, uh, $10,000 for each person coming here so 572 00:26:59,365 --> 00:27:02,645 that we wouldn't be considered wards of the country, 573 00:27:02,825 --> 00:27:07,325 of the state, uh, which was they were able to do, you have 574 00:27:07,325 --> 00:27:09,205 to prove that you had it in case you needed it. 575 00:27:09,505 --> 00:27:12,085 So you wouldn't, you wouldn't have to become a, uh, uh, 576 00:27:12,345 --> 00:27:14,365 you wouldn't have to look for a hand out 577 00:27:14,365 --> 00:27:15,565 to become dependent in America. 578 00:27:15,985 --> 00:27:17,725 So that was, that was taken care of. 579 00:27:17,905 --> 00:27:21,405 - And that's $10,000 in 1930 $4. 580 00:27:21,625 --> 00:27:22,805 - That's right. In 1930, 581 00:27:23,055 --> 00:27:26,285 - Which today would be, I don't know, a lot. 582 00:27:26,995 --> 00:27:30,525 - Yeah. Well, as I said, it was, it was a bond. 583 00:27:30,825 --> 00:27:34,805 It wasn't that you lost it, you just had to prove it. You 584 00:27:34,805 --> 00:27:35,805 - Had to prove it. 585 00:27:35,805 --> 00:27:37,445 Yeah. You had to prove that you were bringing 586 00:27:37,445 --> 00:27:38,725 something to the country. 587 00:27:39,245 --> 00:27:41,365 A lot of, a lot of countries require that. 588 00:27:41,835 --> 00:27:43,445 - Sure. And this was a, 589 00:27:43,715 --> 00:27:46,805 this was a per person thing, you know? So six people, 590 00:27:47,225 --> 00:27:48,225 - That's a lot. 591 00:27:48,225 --> 00:27:50,485 And throughout all of this, grandma 592 00:27:50,505 --> 00:27:53,045 and grandpa, obviously, were living on what they were able 593 00:27:53,045 --> 00:27:56,005 to smuggle out, and it's not like they had jobs 594 00:27:56,185 --> 00:27:57,685 in Triste, right. 595 00:27:57,735 --> 00:27:59,845 Where they were just living off the smuggles. 596 00:28:00,515 --> 00:28:02,605 - Exactly. But the only thing that they did do, 597 00:28:02,605 --> 00:28:04,045 while they were in Palestine, my, 598 00:28:04,105 --> 00:28:06,525 my father bought some properties there, 599 00:28:07,185 --> 00:28:10,845 and, uh, I, I'm not sure how it worked, 600 00:28:10,845 --> 00:28:13,685 but I know he bought properties and probably sold some 601 00:28:13,985 --> 00:28:15,165 and made some profits. 602 00:28:15,905 --> 00:28:18,405 So, uh, I'm not a hundred percent sure of that, 603 00:28:18,405 --> 00:28:19,805 but I know he bought, I don't know what, 604 00:28:19,805 --> 00:28:22,085 how much he made on it, but he did have properties. 605 00:28:22,785 --> 00:28:24,925 - And you, you didn't mention how you went 606 00:28:24,945 --> 00:28:28,325 to some free school in, in Palestine. 607 00:28:28,325 --> 00:28:29,365 You had some schooling 608 00:28:29,365 --> 00:28:31,245 and learned Hebrew a little bit. I went to 609 00:28:31,245 --> 00:28:32,725 - Nurse, yeah, I went to nursery school 610 00:28:32,865 --> 00:28:34,045 for a short period of time. 611 00:28:34,085 --> 00:28:35,765 Obviously, we were only there for one year. 612 00:28:36,265 --> 00:28:38,725 So I went to nursery school for probably for half a year 613 00:28:38,725 --> 00:28:41,005 or whatever it was, and started to learn 614 00:28:41,105 --> 00:28:44,965 as a young child learns Hebrew, which I don't remember, 615 00:28:45,185 --> 00:28:46,405 didn't remember after that. 616 00:28:46,825 --> 00:28:50,305 But it, it was something that we tried to 617 00:28:51,235 --> 00:28:55,225 carry on normal, as normal a life as everyone could. 618 00:28:57,045 --> 00:28:59,065 And that was going, sending your kids to school. 619 00:28:59,065 --> 00:29:00,825 My brother was too young, so he was home. 620 00:29:01,805 --> 00:29:04,305 So, uh, finally, as I said, the, the, 621 00:29:04,405 --> 00:29:07,025 the thing worked out in America, we were able to, uh, 622 00:29:07,045 --> 00:29:08,425 we got the permission to come here. 623 00:29:08,605 --> 00:29:11,105 We got on a, uh, boat. 624 00:29:11,605 --> 00:29:15,265 My, uh, parents, when we, we received the, the willingness 625 00:29:15,285 --> 00:29:19,785 to, to come here, they bought a house in I New York 626 00:29:19,785 --> 00:29:21,025 where the, where the nephew was. 627 00:29:21,805 --> 00:29:22,945 And, uh, and a car. 628 00:29:23,245 --> 00:29:25,745 So that we had a place to come to, I mean, we, a place 629 00:29:25,745 --> 00:29:29,065 to live when we got here, which they did, which was, uh, 630 00:29:29,155 --> 00:29:30,985 quite unusual because again, 631 00:29:31,005 --> 00:29:32,305 it was all through Western Union. 632 00:29:32,305 --> 00:29:33,825 There was no, no telephone. 633 00:29:33,845 --> 00:29:35,305 It was always through Western Union. 634 00:29:35,725 --> 00:29:37,785 And that delayed things a little bit. 635 00:29:38,005 --> 00:29:40,305 But the, the, the frustration of waiting 636 00:29:40,325 --> 00:29:41,550 and waiting constantly, 637 00:29:41,550 --> 00:29:45,125 and the fear that things wouldn't work out was always there. 638 00:29:45,505 --> 00:29:49,205 But fortunately, we got on a, both the SS Majestic was a, 639 00:29:49,205 --> 00:29:50,285 uh, Kard line, 640 00:29:51,065 --> 00:29:55,645 and we left, uh, Haifa, uh, by way of, uh, Egypt. 641 00:29:55,745 --> 00:29:58,765 We stopped in Cairo, Cairo from there to South Hampton 642 00:29:59,265 --> 00:30:01,605 and from South Hampton to New York, 643 00:30:01,735 --> 00:30:03,605 which was a 10 day trip in those days. 644 00:30:04,125 --> 00:30:06,205 I mean, the Mediterranean and then the Atlantic. 645 00:30:06,345 --> 00:30:07,485 So that was a 10 day trip. 646 00:30:08,065 --> 00:30:11,165 And we, fortunately the money was, uh, there, 647 00:30:11,465 --> 00:30:13,125 so we were able to go first class, 648 00:30:13,185 --> 00:30:14,325 and that was quite comfortable. 649 00:30:14,585 --> 00:30:18,605 And that was probably, as I recall, probably one of the most 650 00:30:19,165 --> 00:30:21,285 relaxing things that the family had. 651 00:30:21,865 --> 00:30:24,125 Uh, it'd be those 10 days on the, on the boat. 652 00:30:24,475 --> 00:30:26,405 They felt a little bit more secure 653 00:30:26,405 --> 00:30:30,685 because they now were away from all the places 654 00:30:30,755 --> 00:30:32,405 that created all this fear. 655 00:30:33,185 --> 00:30:36,005 The only thing, because it was the anticipation of getting 656 00:30:36,025 --> 00:30:38,645 to America, not being able to speak the language 657 00:30:38,985 --> 00:30:41,045 and not knowing what's going to happen next. 658 00:30:41,865 --> 00:30:45,885 Anyway, we got to America and, uh, uh, went to the house 659 00:30:46,705 --> 00:30:49,885 and, uh, started our lives in, in America. 660 00:30:50,545 --> 00:30:53,645 My parents didn't speak English. I, I, of course didn't. 661 00:30:54,185 --> 00:30:58,005 And once we got to America, I was sent to school. 662 00:30:59,165 --> 00:31:02,045 I would think probably within a few months of arriving here, 663 00:31:02,045 --> 00:31:04,285 maybe even sooner, not speaking English. 664 00:31:04,525 --> 00:31:07,165 I was put in, I was, by the way, I was six years old at 665 00:31:07,165 --> 00:31:09,565 that point, and I was sent to, uh, kindergarten, 666 00:31:09,625 --> 00:31:10,725 didn't speak the language. 667 00:31:10,725 --> 00:31:14,205 So I kind of lost out the year, which I made back. 668 00:31:14,475 --> 00:31:17,805 They gave me back a year later, 669 00:31:17,915 --> 00:31:19,685 once I was able to speak the language. 670 00:31:20,305 --> 00:31:22,565 - So you jumped, you jumped ahead of grade at that point. 671 00:31:22,865 --> 00:31:24,725 - Jumped one, one grade into the grade 672 00:31:24,725 --> 00:31:25,885 that I was supposed to be in. 673 00:31:26,305 --> 00:31:27,365 - I'm sure there was an awareness, 674 00:31:27,365 --> 00:31:28,445 even though you were quite young, 675 00:31:28,555 --> 00:31:31,165 that things were going from bad to worse in Germany. 676 00:31:31,345 --> 00:31:33,085 And then by the time you got to America, 677 00:31:34,345 --> 00:31:38,405 the sentiment toward Germans was souring, I'm sure. 678 00:31:38,585 --> 00:31:41,485 And so now you're not only Jewish, but you're also German. 679 00:31:42,025 --> 00:31:43,485 - You're absolutely right, Susan. 680 00:31:43,765 --> 00:31:46,205 I was gonna mention the fact that you're gonna, you, 681 00:31:46,205 --> 00:31:47,845 you'll smile at my next statement, 682 00:31:47,865 --> 00:31:51,165 but we did America, Americanize our names. 683 00:31:51,595 --> 00:31:54,645 Instead of having two ends at the end of our last name, 684 00:31:54,865 --> 00:31:55,965 we cut it down to one. 685 00:31:56,025 --> 00:31:58,565 So that, that gave us a little bit of, uh, also 686 00:31:58,665 --> 00:31:59,845 - Let you pretend that you were 687 00:31:59,845 --> 00:32:00,845 - From Paris. 688 00:32:00,845 --> 00:32:02,725 And, uh, my brother always, always said to, 689 00:32:02,825 --> 00:32:04,525 he wasn't Germany, he was from, from Paris. 690 00:32:04,985 --> 00:32:08,525 - So the, instead the name was Beman, and it became Beman. 691 00:32:08,545 --> 00:32:09,845 It softened a German. 692 00:32:10,425 --> 00:32:12,645 - That's right. But Susan's a hundred percent correct in 693 00:32:12,645 --> 00:32:13,845 what she's German. 694 00:32:14,235 --> 00:32:18,005 Germans, particularly German Jews, were not particularly, 695 00:32:18,705 --> 00:32:21,165 uh, popular in America. 696 00:32:21,785 --> 00:32:24,965 Uh, you know, the, the Jewish part of it would, 697 00:32:24,965 --> 00:32:26,845 may have been one thing, but being German. 698 00:32:27,225 --> 00:32:30,845 So again, a low profile, not speaking of the language, 699 00:32:30,985 --> 00:32:33,605 not knowing anything about our country, our new country, 700 00:32:34,145 --> 00:32:38,285 it created more, uh, apprehension and, and so on. 701 00:32:38,345 --> 00:32:40,685 As you can all imagine, my parents went 702 00:32:40,685 --> 00:32:42,205 to school to learn English. 703 00:32:43,085 --> 00:32:44,365 I learned it, of course, very quickly. 704 00:32:44,645 --> 00:32:46,205 'cause young people learned the language. 705 00:32:46,355 --> 00:32:50,125 They went, they, they, uh, had to learn the new ways, the, 706 00:32:50,305 --> 00:32:53,605 the, the, the the ways in America how to, how to behave 707 00:32:53,705 --> 00:32:57,245 and, uh, what to do, the, all, all, all the things 708 00:32:57,245 --> 00:32:59,725 that no one really knows until they get to a country 709 00:32:59,795 --> 00:33:01,765 that are different from the country that they left. 710 00:33:02,425 --> 00:33:03,765 Anyway, they learned language. 711 00:33:04,105 --> 00:33:07,085 My grandparents didn't because they chose not to. 712 00:33:07,185 --> 00:33:09,325 So they really never learned English. 713 00:33:09,825 --> 00:33:12,965 And they really never became, uh, Americans as, 714 00:33:12,985 --> 00:33:14,685 as official Americans. 715 00:33:14,725 --> 00:33:15,965 I mean, they loved the country, 716 00:33:16,105 --> 00:33:19,205 but they, they officially did not partake in 717 00:33:19,205 --> 00:33:20,285 being an American. 718 00:33:20,505 --> 00:33:22,125 And they were, they stayed home. 719 00:33:22,745 --> 00:33:24,045 I'm flu in German today 720 00:33:24,045 --> 00:33:26,525 because I spoke to, I spoke to my grandparents, 721 00:33:26,625 --> 00:33:28,885 my grandmother who survived my grandfather. 722 00:33:29,265 --> 00:33:32,645 And here we are at a house, didn't land the language, 723 00:33:32,845 --> 00:33:35,605 couldn't drive the car until they were able 724 00:33:35,605 --> 00:33:36,965 to learn how to do this. 725 00:33:37,225 --> 00:33:38,445 My parents were able to do this. 726 00:33:38,785 --> 00:33:41,725 My father went into their business, into the retail women's, 727 00:33:41,745 --> 00:33:46,205 uh, ready to wear the business, women's fashions, 728 00:33:46,745 --> 00:33:49,045 and started a business, started a store. 729 00:33:49,705 --> 00:33:52,805 And, uh, obviously they worked very, worked very hard 730 00:33:53,075 --> 00:33:55,485 with my mother, and it did pretty well. 731 00:33:55,865 --> 00:33:57,565 And then they moved to White Plains, 732 00:33:57,565 --> 00:33:59,245 which was a larger town at that time. 733 00:33:59,625 --> 00:34:01,525 And, uh, went into a bigger store, 734 00:34:01,865 --> 00:34:04,725 and again, progressed into another store and another store. 735 00:34:04,745 --> 00:34:07,005 And things went very well for them. 736 00:34:08,085 --> 00:34:10,925 I do remember how very hard they worked. 737 00:34:11,545 --> 00:34:13,005 And I also remember 738 00:34:13,305 --> 00:34:17,365 how my father's insecurity remained with him. 739 00:34:17,585 --> 00:34:20,845 My mother, I don't quite remember as being as insecure 740 00:34:20,865 --> 00:34:24,645 as my father, but my father was always felt, 741 00:34:25,215 --> 00:34:29,565 never felt quite at ease as a result of this entire, uh, 742 00:34:29,565 --> 00:34:32,085 process that took place in the last past few 743 00:34:32,085 --> 00:34:33,685 years when they were in the house. 744 00:34:33,705 --> 00:34:35,765 How he locked all doors. Yeah, my father would check, 745 00:34:36,195 --> 00:34:39,245 lock the doors and lock the house and windows and windows 746 00:34:39,465 --> 00:34:41,005 and make, make sure that they, every night. 747 00:34:41,075 --> 00:34:44,685 Yeah. And some of this, I, I must admit, passed onto me 748 00:34:44,685 --> 00:34:48,285 because, uh, by absorption 749 00:34:48,505 --> 00:34:51,685 or by, by whatever, whatever the process is 750 00:34:51,685 --> 00:34:54,445 that creates something that goes from one child, 751 00:34:54,555 --> 00:34:58,885 from one parent to a child, I also had certain bits 752 00:34:58,885 --> 00:35:00,805 of security, so to speak. Well, 753 00:35:00,805 --> 00:35:02,725 - I mean, it's a lot for a child to endure. 754 00:35:02,865 --> 00:35:07,125 My God. And then I'm curious, that generational trauma 755 00:35:07,875 --> 00:35:12,725 also of leaving behind everything your family knew 756 00:35:13,465 --> 00:35:17,565 to start again, and then realizing that everyone you knew 757 00:35:17,565 --> 00:35:20,605 and loved who didn't get out likely were going 758 00:35:20,605 --> 00:35:22,165 to either perish or had perished. 759 00:35:22,415 --> 00:35:24,605 Right. That, um, that's a lot of displacement. 760 00:35:24,605 --> 00:35:27,565 And then coming to a, I don't even know how you would, 761 00:35:28,105 --> 00:35:31,565 as a young boy learn to form, uh, your identity, 762 00:35:31,635 --> 00:35:35,165 because you've had to acquiesce everywhere you went 763 00:35:35,265 --> 00:35:37,885 to become whomever you were in the moment. 764 00:35:39,345 --> 00:35:41,165 - You, you're a hundred, you're 765 00:35:41,165 --> 00:35:42,205 a hundred percent right, Susan. 766 00:35:42,625 --> 00:35:46,205 Uh, children absorb a lot of these, uh, problems 767 00:35:46,205 --> 00:35:47,845 that the parents have, not directly, 768 00:35:47,865 --> 00:35:51,565 but some, something remains with the kids that it has to. 769 00:35:52,185 --> 00:35:57,045 But, uh, you know, you, you learn, you learn 770 00:35:57,145 --> 00:35:59,765 how to, uh, you learn how to get along 771 00:35:59,905 --> 00:36:03,565 and you learn the new ways you, as you well know. 772 00:36:03,825 --> 00:36:05,285 I'm sure you, you're aware of the fact that 773 00:36:05,925 --> 00:36:08,165 European behavior, generally speaking, 774 00:36:08,625 --> 00:36:10,925 is somewhat different than the American behavior. 775 00:36:12,205 --> 00:36:15,125 Europeans, Germans were much more a little formal, 776 00:36:15,485 --> 00:36:17,645 a little stiffer in their, in their behavior. 777 00:36:18,505 --> 00:36:21,805 And, uh, we were that way. I, I was that way. 778 00:36:22,405 --> 00:36:26,765 I, I married, I married a, uh, an American gal 779 00:36:27,185 --> 00:36:30,365 who, uh, I was able to change a little bit with 780 00:36:30,365 --> 00:36:33,845 because this formality, this formal behavior kind 781 00:36:33,845 --> 00:36:34,885 of, uh, drifted away. 782 00:36:35,305 --> 00:36:38,885 And in 19, uh, 46, 783 00:36:39,275 --> 00:36:42,365 - Well, what about 1938 with Ernst and Otto? 784 00:36:42,985 --> 00:36:44,405 - Oh, yes. I'm glad you mentioned that. 785 00:36:44,505 --> 00:36:48,045 My father and mother brought six, six other families, helped 786 00:36:48,045 --> 00:36:50,005 to bring six other families over here. 787 00:36:50,665 --> 00:36:53,765 Uh, one of them, one of the families was, uh, the Otto 788 00:36:54,485 --> 00:36:58,365 Otto Beman archive, an archive a, uh, well known 789 00:36:59,305 --> 00:37:02,245 ar archivist who no longer is, uh, living. 790 00:37:02,785 --> 00:37:05,325 But he was well known and became very, very popular, 791 00:37:05,595 --> 00:37:07,045 well known in in America. 792 00:37:07,545 --> 00:37:09,125 No, in the world. In the world, yeah. 793 00:37:09,545 --> 00:37:12,125 And, uh, his brother was a, uh, a doctor, 794 00:37:12,465 --> 00:37:17,085 - But wasn't it, it the case by 38 that the Jews got out 795 00:37:17,085 --> 00:37:19,085 with whatever they could Oh, yeah. 796 00:37:19,115 --> 00:37:20,605 Quickly, by 38. 797 00:37:20,665 --> 00:37:24,205 And so didn't explain how grandpa helped the relatives 798 00:37:24,585 --> 00:37:25,885 to get out helping. 799 00:37:25,945 --> 00:37:30,205 - The, at that point was, was primarily being sponsored 800 00:37:30,205 --> 00:37:33,485 to them, and, uh, finding a place for them to live 801 00:37:33,905 --> 00:37:35,645 and moving the process 802 00:37:35,795 --> 00:37:38,605 that takes a long time along a little bit faster, so 803 00:37:38,605 --> 00:37:39,725 that could get out faster. 804 00:37:40,425 --> 00:37:43,085 Uh, and again, sponsoring them, the laws changed 805 00:37:43,145 --> 00:37:46,885 to some extent, where you were, you were responsible 806 00:37:47,005 --> 00:37:48,285 for them up to certain point. 807 00:37:48,445 --> 00:37:49,725 I don't know how much financially, 808 00:37:49,825 --> 00:37:51,405 but you were responsible for them 809 00:37:51,945 --> 00:37:54,965 if they needed the finances and so on and so forth. 810 00:37:55,225 --> 00:37:56,765 The country wasn't going to help them, 811 00:37:56,985 --> 00:37:58,405 but the sponsor would help them. 812 00:37:58,745 --> 00:38:00,885 The laws changed a little bit as to how, 813 00:38:01,025 --> 00:38:02,485 how we people were brought out. 814 00:38:02,545 --> 00:38:05,765 It became a little bit more, uh, it became a little easier 815 00:38:05,915 --> 00:38:09,405 because of the problems that were going on in, in the world. 816 00:38:09,995 --> 00:38:13,005 They all made it here, and they all did fairly well. 817 00:38:13,505 --> 00:38:15,605 Uh, the older ones had more trouble 818 00:38:15,605 --> 00:38:18,725 because, you know, older people have a more difficulty in, 819 00:38:18,745 --> 00:38:21,245 in assimilating and then getting, learning the new habits. 820 00:38:21,745 --> 00:38:23,205 But everybody was here 821 00:38:24,125 --> 00:38:26,445 and, uh, that they tried to bring her. 822 00:38:26,705 --> 00:38:28,165 That's what people did in those days. 823 00:38:28,165 --> 00:38:30,325 They helped each other come to America if they could. 824 00:38:30,745 --> 00:38:32,485 - Did the Jews that were already in America, 825 00:38:33,025 --> 00:38:35,085 did the communities embrace you, 826 00:38:35,385 --> 00:38:37,285 or was there a disconnect there as well? 827 00:38:37,625 --> 00:38:38,765 - We all embraced each other. 828 00:38:39,825 --> 00:38:43,475 You know, it's like, uh, Well, I'm get, 829 00:38:43,615 --> 00:38:45,035 I'm gimme a second. 830 00:38:47,495 --> 00:38:48,675 We all embrace each other 831 00:38:48,675 --> 00:38:50,275 because we all went through the same thing. 832 00:38:50,295 --> 00:38:52,475 We all wanted to survive. 833 00:38:53,295 --> 00:38:56,475 And, uh, you, you would take anyone's help 834 00:38:56,695 --> 00:38:59,565 for anything to, to be helped. 835 00:38:59,725 --> 00:39:01,565 I mean, you, you, you, we helped each other. 836 00:39:01,585 --> 00:39:03,725 That's the only way that people could live in those days. 837 00:39:04,185 --> 00:39:06,405 Uh, the ones that, uh, that came from, 838 00:39:06,825 --> 00:39:08,325 we all shared in the same problems. 839 00:39:08,325 --> 00:39:11,085 That's really what I'm saying. So we commiserated 840 00:39:11,085 --> 00:39:13,365 with each other and helped each others, uh, 841 00:39:13,715 --> 00:39:15,205 very much so, very much so. 842 00:39:15,225 --> 00:39:17,245 And stayed, stayed friendly together. 843 00:39:17,585 --> 00:39:19,165 Uh, all the years that they were here, 844 00:39:19,565 --> 00:39:22,165 I think all the people that my parents knew who came over 845 00:39:22,765 --> 00:39:25,845 remained their friends until they eventually moved 846 00:39:25,845 --> 00:39:27,045 someplace else, or they died. 847 00:39:27,465 --> 00:39:30,725 So there was a camaraderie, so to speak, amongst people 848 00:39:30,865 --> 00:39:32,485 who, who were survivors. 849 00:39:32,705 --> 00:39:34,205 - But that was more the comradery 850 00:39:34,315 --> 00:39:36,845 that existed within the German Jewish world. 851 00:39:37,895 --> 00:39:38,995 - Yes, yes, yes. 852 00:39:39,325 --> 00:39:43,275 - There was still an insular feeling about being a German 853 00:39:43,535 --> 00:39:47,795 Jew versus maybe Ashkenazi or, right. Well, 854 00:39:48,235 --> 00:39:51,395 - I think Gary, I think that's something that, uh, has been, 855 00:39:51,655 --> 00:39:53,315 has historically been the same. 856 00:39:53,775 --> 00:39:55,515 Uh, there's always been some rif 857 00:39:55,535 --> 00:39:58,675 or some division between the various groups of Jews, 858 00:39:59,065 --> 00:40:00,755 even in good times or bad times. 859 00:40:01,255 --> 00:40:04,755 Uh, but the, the thing, the thing that impressed me now 860 00:40:04,755 --> 00:40:07,915 that I have the afterthought, impressed me that the people 861 00:40:08,095 --> 00:40:10,475 who did survive hung together. 862 00:40:10,625 --> 00:40:13,995 They embraced each other. And, uh, for good reason. 863 00:40:14,195 --> 00:40:16,355 I mean, we all shared the same problems, 864 00:40:16,355 --> 00:40:17,795 and we all went through the same thing. 865 00:40:18,055 --> 00:40:19,715 And we all all understood what it was, 866 00:40:19,825 --> 00:40:21,915 what what everyone went through. Things 867 00:40:21,975 --> 00:40:22,975 - Got better. 868 00:40:22,975 --> 00:40:25,435 Many years later, every single song went back 869 00:40:25,435 --> 00:40:26,435 - To Germany. 870 00:40:26,435 --> 00:40:27,195 You know, it's an interesting thing. 871 00:40:27,295 --> 00:40:29,155 My father and mother went back to Germany, 872 00:40:29,575 --> 00:40:32,315 and I tried recently, I think Janet brought it up 873 00:40:32,315 --> 00:40:34,595 because some people hated Germany 874 00:40:34,775 --> 00:40:36,595 and never wanted to speak about Germany, 875 00:40:36,655 --> 00:40:38,715 and never wanted to see Germany again. 876 00:40:39,055 --> 00:40:41,635 But I think my parents who went back, uh, 877 00:40:42,265 --> 00:40:43,595 took several trips back. 878 00:40:44,475 --> 00:40:48,675 I think they had some kind of a bond, not 879 00:40:48,825 --> 00:40:50,075 with the Nazis, of course, 880 00:40:50,415 --> 00:40:53,515 but they had some kind of a bond with the home 881 00:40:53,745 --> 00:40:55,675 that they came from. 882 00:40:56,225 --> 00:40:58,675 It's like going to see the house that you used to live in. 883 00:40:58,895 --> 00:41:00,875 Uh, going back to take a look at the 884 00:41:00,875 --> 00:41:02,035 old house 50 years later. 885 00:41:02,545 --> 00:41:04,635 Well, the war was over in 45. 886 00:41:04,955 --> 00:41:06,475 I think they started going back six 887 00:41:06,475 --> 00:41:07,515 or seven or eight years later. 888 00:41:07,935 --> 00:41:12,155 The irony of it all, I, after I graduated college, 889 00:41:12,695 --> 00:41:14,155 - You graduated from Colgate. 890 00:41:14,345 --> 00:41:16,075 - Colgate, which my brother did also. 891 00:41:16,095 --> 00:41:18,115 Two years later, he became a lawyer and a, 892 00:41:18,115 --> 00:41:19,395 and a judge in Terrytown. 893 00:41:19,395 --> 00:41:24,235 After that, once I went in the Army, uh, this was 894 00:41:24,235 --> 00:41:25,475 during the Korean War. 895 00:41:26,055 --> 00:41:29,435 And, uh, I was fortunate enough not to have to go to Korea. 896 00:41:29,775 --> 00:41:31,835 But where did I go? I went back to Germany 897 00:41:31,975 --> 00:41:33,155 as an American soldier. 898 00:41:33,915 --> 00:41:35,165 That was my round trip. 899 00:41:36,185 --> 00:41:38,805 So, uh, it may, I was there for a year and a half. 900 00:41:39,265 --> 00:41:41,125 It was interesting to go back to 901 00:41:41,125 --> 00:41:44,005 where you came from under different conditions. 902 00:41:44,825 --> 00:41:49,005 Uh, I was quite, uh, impressed with having 903 00:41:49,075 --> 00:41:50,085 that experience. 904 00:41:50,385 --> 00:41:51,485 - And Germany was going 905 00:41:51,485 --> 00:41:53,365 through reconstruction at that point, still, 906 00:41:54,105 --> 00:41:55,105 - The war was over. 907 00:41:55,225 --> 00:41:59,245 And I was stationed in a very nice area that I was familiar 908 00:41:59,245 --> 00:42:02,085 with, uh, I mean, that I'd become familiar with. 909 00:42:02,425 --> 00:42:05,045 And I spoke to German, of course, that that, that, 910 00:42:05,115 --> 00:42:06,805 that didn't hurt at the beginning. 911 00:42:06,885 --> 00:42:08,445 I was very bitter about the whole thing 912 00:42:08,445 --> 00:42:09,685 being in Germany and so on. 913 00:42:09,985 --> 00:42:12,965 But after a while, uh, you know, you get used to things 914 00:42:13,065 --> 00:42:16,045 and, uh, uh, I, I was now an American. 915 00:42:16,065 --> 00:42:18,485 So I, I was proud of the fact that I was an American 916 00:42:18,865 --> 00:42:21,645 and quite proud of the fact that I was in the Army. 917 00:42:22,065 --> 00:42:25,645 - You know, it's interesting that people who I tell some 918 00:42:25,645 --> 00:42:27,245 of this story too, they said, 919 00:42:27,245 --> 00:42:29,645 does your father have a German accent? 920 00:42:29,725 --> 00:42:34,165 I said, no, he doesn't. Uh, but my grandparents always did. 921 00:42:34,265 --> 00:42:37,605 So there's always that point where you come to a new country 922 00:42:37,945 --> 00:42:40,085 and you retain the accent of the country. 923 00:42:40,225 --> 00:42:43,245 You left or you become an American. And I think, 924 00:42:44,085 --> 00:42:45,325 - I think it's an age thing. 925 00:42:45,545 --> 00:42:46,925 It depends on how old you are, 926 00:42:47,415 --> 00:42:48,415 - Right? 927 00:42:48,415 --> 00:42:51,365 And so he was right in that spot where he was still then. 928 00:42:51,705 --> 00:42:53,925 And I remember a story, I think you told that. 929 00:42:54,025 --> 00:42:57,365 And my father loves baseball, passed that on to me 930 00:42:57,905 --> 00:43:00,085 and play, you know, all about baseball. 931 00:43:00,105 --> 00:43:03,405 But I think that you said that grandpa just never really got 932 00:43:03,545 --> 00:43:04,605 or embraced baseball. 933 00:43:04,805 --> 00:43:06,085 'cause it was just so American. 934 00:43:06,945 --> 00:43:08,645 - My father was loved soccer. 935 00:43:09,025 --> 00:43:11,045 And by the way, I don't have an accent. 936 00:43:11,165 --> 00:43:12,965 I never said I had an accent. . 937 00:43:13,685 --> 00:43:15,445 - I have, I wanna share an anecdote about 938 00:43:15,445 --> 00:43:16,525 my grandfather too. 939 00:43:17,205 --> 00:43:21,245 I remember as a kid, when the house we grew up in, that 940 00:43:21,755 --> 00:43:23,525 grandpa drove a Mercedes. 941 00:43:23,625 --> 00:43:25,365 He had that cool little two-door 942 00:43:25,605 --> 00:43:26,765 Mercedes, you remember that dad? 943 00:43:26,905 --> 00:43:28,605 And he, I remember in the driveway, 944 00:43:28,605 --> 00:43:32,005 and I was becoming aware at school at that time 945 00:43:32,185 --> 00:43:36,005 of the Holocaust and all the horrors that went with it. 946 00:43:36,385 --> 00:43:39,285 And I remember talking to my grandfather, so I'm about, 947 00:43:40,045 --> 00:43:43,365 I don't know what young age, 10 years old, whatever it was. 948 00:43:44,065 --> 00:43:48,445 And I said, grandpa, there's parts manufacturers 949 00:43:48,465 --> 00:43:51,045 who aided and abetted the camps. 950 00:43:51,395 --> 00:43:54,525 There's parts in this Mercedes. How could you? 951 00:43:54,825 --> 00:43:57,845 And my grandfather said, basically said, it's a great car. 952 00:43:57,845 --> 00:43:59,485 It's a German car. It doesn't get better. 953 00:43:59,905 --> 00:44:02,325 He was so, yeah, he was so proud of the fact 954 00:44:02,325 --> 00:44:04,125 that it was just German engineering. 955 00:44:04,145 --> 00:44:05,405 And the other stuff was like, 956 00:44:06,185 --> 00:44:07,725 it was about being German still. 957 00:44:08,525 --> 00:44:10,895 - Yeah. Yeah. And you know what else Susan, 958 00:44:11,095 --> 00:44:13,975 I I'm sure you've spoken to a lot of folks who, uh, 959 00:44:14,205 --> 00:44:16,495 came from, from the Germany, from Germany. 960 00:44:16,865 --> 00:44:21,335 After a while, the memories, memories never go away. 961 00:44:21,395 --> 00:44:22,615 But they start to wane. 962 00:44:22,615 --> 00:44:25,375 They start to get a little bit, uh, d con diffused. 963 00:44:25,995 --> 00:44:28,615 And, uh, you, uh, think back 964 00:44:28,755 --> 00:44:31,685 and you, you, you wonder, wonder why 965 00:44:31,745 --> 00:44:33,085 and how these things happen 966 00:44:33,585 --> 00:44:36,125 and, uh, what we're going through in the world right now, 967 00:44:36,335 --> 00:44:38,605 which is horrendous in some of the countries. 968 00:44:38,985 --> 00:44:42,685 Uh, I can so well understand the frustrations that 969 00:44:42,745 --> 00:44:44,085 so many people are going through. 970 00:44:44,665 --> 00:44:48,965 And I'm so sorry that most of us, most people 971 00:44:49,165 --> 00:44:52,485 that I know don't do anything about it 972 00:44:52,545 --> 00:44:56,405 or don't have the, uh, uh, empathy, either the empathy 973 00:44:56,425 --> 00:44:59,445 or the willingness or the awareness to do anything. 974 00:44:59,465 --> 00:45:03,005 We just sit by, like the Jews in Germany sat by 975 00:45:03,225 --> 00:45:08,045 and they let Hitler just cut across, make a swath 976 00:45:08,165 --> 00:45:10,765 through their, their midst and just kill them. 977 00:45:10,785 --> 00:45:13,205 And, and, and it's so fearful. 978 00:45:13,625 --> 00:45:17,485 I'm so fearful of what's happening here now that, uh, it's, 979 00:45:17,485 --> 00:45:19,085 it's, of course, I'm, I'm too old 980 00:45:19,085 --> 00:45:20,965 to really do much about it at this point, 981 00:45:21,145 --> 00:45:23,125 but I wish I could do more than I'm doing. 982 00:45:23,825 --> 00:45:27,045 How history repeats itself, how history is allowed 983 00:45:27,345 --> 00:45:29,765 to repeat itself is noteworthy. 984 00:45:30,245 --> 00:45:34,565 - I I fear that we won't get out of this 80 year cycle. 985 00:45:34,745 --> 00:45:35,765 We seem to be in 986 00:45:36,555 --> 00:45:37,555 - Yeah, yeah. 987 00:45:37,555 --> 00:45:39,845 - Tell the story. When you and I went back to Germany 988 00:45:40,665 --> 00:45:44,805 and for no reason whatsoever, you knew which street to take, 989 00:45:44,905 --> 00:45:46,365 and you were left there when you were three. 990 00:45:46,895 --> 00:45:48,765 - Janet and I went back, uh, 991 00:45:49,425 --> 00:45:52,485 to Germany in the nineties after 992 00:45:52,505 --> 00:45:55,205 - The wall came down, I think - Shortly thereafter. 993 00:45:55,505 --> 00:45:57,645 And my grandparents lived in a small 994 00:45:57,645 --> 00:45:58,885 town, as I said, in Bavaria. 995 00:45:59,665 --> 00:46:04,005 And we drove, uh, to the town from Berlin. 996 00:46:04,945 --> 00:46:09,085 And, uh, as I say, small town meaning six or 8,000 people 997 00:46:09,225 --> 00:46:10,645 or something of that, of that effect. 998 00:46:11,145 --> 00:46:16,125 Uh, by the way, that town, seven, 8,000 people had 500, uh, 999 00:46:16,155 --> 00:46:17,725 400 Jews who lived there. 1000 00:46:18,105 --> 00:46:21,005 And one night, of course, this was during the, 1001 00:46:21,005 --> 00:46:25,085 during the war one night that they trucked all 400 Jews, 1002 00:46:25,825 --> 00:46:29,645 picked them up at midnight and took them up on a hill nearby 1003 00:46:29,905 --> 00:46:32,085 and machined gun them all to death. 1004 00:46:32,415 --> 00:46:36,445 There were no Jews further in that town, or ever again. 1005 00:46:36,825 --> 00:46:41,485 His name is Geza, G-E-I-S-A. It's in, in Bavaria. Right. 1006 00:46:41,625 --> 00:46:43,885 - And there's even a, a monument at Yad. 1007 00:46:44,125 --> 00:46:47,605 Em, when I visited Yad em for that, 1008 00:46:47,605 --> 00:46:49,125 my great grandparents' town, 1009 00:46:49,505 --> 00:46:50,885 - We were driving to this town. 1010 00:46:51,205 --> 00:46:54,205 'cause I wanted to see that the house, which I visited, uh, 1011 00:46:54,295 --> 00:46:57,405 quite often as a child, we approached this town. 1012 00:46:57,945 --> 00:47:01,005 Course, it was, the roads were not highways. 1013 00:47:01,005 --> 00:47:03,765 They weren't, they were, you know, uh, small, uh, 1014 00:47:03,915 --> 00:47:06,645 ancillary roads leading to this town. 1015 00:47:07,225 --> 00:47:11,525 And I for some reason got into the area near the town 1016 00:47:12,025 --> 00:47:14,845 and remembered the directions were I had 1017 00:47:14,845 --> 00:47:16,165 to make a right and a left. 1018 00:47:16,385 --> 00:47:18,685 But I, I remembered how to get to the house. 1019 00:47:18,785 --> 00:47:20,045 And I don't know how it was done, 1020 00:47:20,045 --> 00:47:23,445 but it, it impressed, uh, Janet, very much muscle 1021 00:47:23,445 --> 00:47:24,445 - Memory. 1022 00:47:24,445 --> 00:47:27,325 - He left and he said, no, we have to turn down this road. 1023 00:47:27,485 --> 00:47:29,445 I said, how could you possibly remember that? 1024 00:47:30,305 --> 00:47:32,925 - I'm curious, uh, how did you and Gianna meet? 1025 00:47:33,805 --> 00:47:37,445 - I was on my way back from college in Philadelphia. 1026 00:47:37,945 --> 00:47:41,925 And this girl on a train said to me, am I pinned 1027 00:47:41,925 --> 00:47:43,805 or am I engaged, or whatever. 1028 00:47:43,825 --> 00:47:46,765 And I lived in Bryan Manor, uh, 1029 00:47:47,345 --> 00:47:49,005 and I said, no, I'm neither. 1030 00:47:49,225 --> 00:47:51,765 And she said, well, I'm pinned to a guy who goes 1031 00:47:51,765 --> 00:47:52,885 to Cornell Law School. 1032 00:47:53,745 --> 00:47:56,725 Can I have him, the brother call you? 1033 00:47:56,785 --> 00:47:58,965 And I thought, this guy must be a real jerk 1034 00:47:59,715 --> 00:48:03,205 that he has some woman on the train picking up women fair. 1035 00:48:04,185 --> 00:48:07,285 And he, uh, came to Brian Cliff on a Sunday. 1036 00:48:07,565 --> 00:48:09,565 'cause he didn't wanna waste his time on a Friday 1037 00:48:09,585 --> 00:48:11,485 or a Saturday in case I was a dog. 1038 00:48:12,265 --> 00:48:16,245 And , he decided I wasn't. 1039 00:48:16,545 --> 00:48:19,365 And uh, six weeks later we were engaged. 1040 00:48:19,745 --> 00:48:21,045 - Oh my gosh. That's 1041 00:48:21,045 --> 00:48:22,045 - Amazing. 1042 00:48:22,045 --> 00:48:23,725 But, you know, it's, it's a blind date. 1043 00:48:23,865 --> 00:48:25,325 That's really what it was. 1044 00:48:25,465 --> 00:48:28,765 And then the person that my mom referenced became my aunt 1045 00:48:29,385 --> 00:48:31,885 - Was his brother, but the girl was my 1046 00:48:31,885 --> 00:48:32,885 - Sister-in-Law. 1047 00:48:32,885 --> 00:48:33,925 So they, they got married too. 1048 00:48:34,225 --> 00:48:37,725 So it was just one of those sliding doors, things that, 1049 00:48:38,125 --> 00:48:41,005 a different train, a different moment and schedule. 1050 00:48:41,185 --> 00:48:43,085 And none of this would've happened. Wow. 1051 00:48:44,005 --> 00:48:45,205 - I think Harry should tell you 1052 00:48:45,205 --> 00:48:47,525 that when we arrived at the house 1053 00:48:47,655 --> 00:48:50,965 where his grandparents lived, they weren't home. 1054 00:48:50,985 --> 00:48:52,045 We rang the doorbell 1055 00:48:52,585 --> 00:48:55,325 and the neighbor said, by the way, what's your name? 1056 00:48:55,325 --> 00:48:59,405 And he said, Beman. And she said, oh, the people 1057 00:48:59,425 --> 00:49:01,285 who bought the house from the Bemans, 1058 00:49:01,305 --> 00:49:03,085 the children still own the house. 1059 00:49:04,575 --> 00:49:08,305 With that, we got very lucky because the car drove up 1060 00:49:08,765 --> 00:49:11,825 and the people who own the house were in the car, 1061 00:49:12,325 --> 00:49:13,705 and they let us into the house. 1062 00:49:13,805 --> 00:49:15,705 So Harry got to go into the house 1063 00:49:15,705 --> 00:49:17,345 where his grandparents had lived 1064 00:49:17,365 --> 00:49:18,865 and his father grew up. Oh, 1065 00:49:18,865 --> 00:49:19,865 - I love that. 1066 00:49:20,605 --> 00:49:21,785 - And saw the house. 1067 00:49:22,485 --> 00:49:25,105 And then they told us a story, what it was like. 1068 00:49:25,385 --> 00:49:27,985 'cause this was in the eastern sector of, uh, Germany. 1069 00:49:28,685 --> 00:49:31,545 And they told us what it was like living under Russian rule 1070 00:49:33,175 --> 00:49:35,555 and how they had to get passes to go out 1071 00:49:35,815 --> 00:49:36,835 to the western sector. 1072 00:49:37,295 --> 00:49:40,275 And Harry, you know, walked around the house. 1073 00:49:40,495 --> 00:49:43,115 But I personally was more interested in their life 1074 00:49:43,445 --> 00:49:44,715 under the Russian rule. 1075 00:49:45,455 --> 00:49:47,075 But Harry got to see the house 1076 00:49:47,135 --> 00:49:48,635 and he remembered it completely, 1077 00:49:48,705 --> 00:49:50,235 even though he was only three years old. 1078 00:49:50,535 --> 00:49:51,595 - Wow. That's amazing. 1079 00:49:51,875 --> 00:49:56,595 I just, I recently had a woman on the podcast who was in, 1080 00:49:57,415 --> 00:50:00,435 uh, Eastern Germany when the wall was still up, 1081 00:50:00,465 --> 00:50:02,275 when it was still under Russian rule. 1082 00:50:02,295 --> 00:50:04,475 And she told her story about their getting out. 1083 00:50:04,615 --> 00:50:06,115 Uh, her family's getting out, 1084 00:50:06,135 --> 00:50:08,035 and it was really something. Yeah. 1085 00:50:08,255 --> 00:50:12,395 - Did the people that got the house from our family, 1086 00:50:13,185 --> 00:50:15,875 when you first introduced yourselves, 1087 00:50:15,935 --> 00:50:18,315 was there a momentary fear that the, 1088 00:50:18,505 --> 00:50:21,795 that you were coming back to claim Jewish property? Yes, 1089 00:50:22,115 --> 00:50:23,115 - A very good point, Gary. 1090 00:50:23,115 --> 00:50:23,835 You're a hundred percent right. 1091 00:50:23,835 --> 00:50:24,955 They thought we were coming back. 1092 00:50:25,375 --> 00:50:27,605 As a matter of fact, I did, did have the right 1093 00:50:27,785 --> 00:50:32,405 to make a claim on that house, which I, I, I didn't do, 1094 00:50:32,825 --> 00:50:35,205 uh, for a variety of reasons. 1095 00:50:35,985 --> 00:50:39,405 Uh, number one, I needed a lawyer in Germany. 1096 00:50:39,725 --> 00:50:41,285 I needed a lawyer here so 1097 00:50:41,285 --> 00:50:42,925 that there was a financial end of it. 1098 00:50:43,185 --> 00:50:46,485 And there, there was also a humane 1099 00:50:47,125 --> 00:50:48,485 humanitarian angle. 1100 00:50:48,965 --> 00:50:50,245 I mean, what was I gonna do? 1101 00:50:50,395 --> 00:50:52,245 Kick these people out of their house 1102 00:50:52,825 --> 00:50:54,605 the way I was kicked outta my house? 1103 00:50:54,785 --> 00:50:55,845 In other words, we did nothing. 1104 00:50:56,435 --> 00:50:58,925 They lived there and that was the end of it. The 1105 00:50:58,925 --> 00:51:00,605 - Susan ou got reparations. We 1106 00:51:00,605 --> 00:51:01,645 - Did get reparations. 1107 00:51:01,785 --> 00:51:04,165 We, we did receive monies from Germany 1108 00:51:04,705 --> 00:51:06,405 for a long period of time. 1109 00:51:06,425 --> 00:51:09,565 My parents, for a long period of time, I got something 1110 00:51:09,565 --> 00:51:12,285 because I really, uh, was not a wage earner. 1111 00:51:12,425 --> 00:51:14,885 And I had no basic value from the point 1112 00:51:14,885 --> 00:51:16,085 of income in those days. 1113 00:51:16,265 --> 00:51:17,325 So I got a few dollars, 1114 00:51:17,585 --> 00:51:21,125 but my parents was sent, received money until every 1115 00:51:21,125 --> 00:51:23,925 - Month - Until they, until they passed away. So 1116 00:51:23,925 --> 00:51:26,245 - It was basically like German guilt money 1117 00:51:26,245 --> 00:51:27,605 that they were sending that 1118 00:51:27,605 --> 00:51:28,605 - You guilt money. 1119 00:51:28,605 --> 00:51:30,285 Yeah. But I suppose it was a couple 1120 00:51:30,285 --> 00:51:32,325 of thousand dollars a month or something like that. 1121 00:51:32,755 --> 00:51:35,845 - Yeah. It's just, it's, it's such a curiosity, I think. 1122 00:51:35,955 --> 00:51:38,365 Well, what is a justifiable amount of money 1123 00:51:38,425 --> 00:51:41,485 for slaughtering an entire race of people? 1124 00:51:42,595 --> 00:51:45,085 - Well, what happened is it had to do the value of 1125 00:51:45,115 --> 00:51:46,885 what they had before they got there. 1126 00:51:46,955 --> 00:51:49,485 Because she was a, a rich Jew. 1127 00:51:49,865 --> 00:51:52,645 She got more than a poor Jew would've gotten. 1128 00:51:52,825 --> 00:51:55,245 - But I mean, every, all Jews got something. Yes. 1129 00:51:55,465 --> 00:51:57,525 All was just, not just my family, 1130 00:51:57,825 --> 00:52:02,325 - But she proved that she was a very affluent family. 1131 00:52:02,545 --> 00:52:04,685 So they got more money than somebody 1132 00:52:05,315 --> 00:52:07,565 that would not have been as affluent 1133 00:52:08,385 --> 00:52:12,245 - One thing differently, and none of you would be here. 1134 00:52:12,535 --> 00:52:14,285 - Right. It hadn't been for my father. 1135 00:52:14,605 --> 00:52:17,725 I mean, he's the one who, who really began this process 1136 00:52:17,985 --> 00:52:19,645 and insisted us this 1137 00:52:19,645 --> 00:52:21,325 - Could have easily gone a different direction, 1138 00:52:21,325 --> 00:52:23,645 in which case none of us are here talking. 1139 00:52:23,715 --> 00:52:25,925 - Well, and I think a lot of people thought, 1140 00:52:26,305 --> 00:52:29,325 to your point earlier, Harry, that a lot of people thought, 1141 00:52:29,545 --> 00:52:31,245 oh, this is gonna blow over. 1142 00:52:31,355 --> 00:52:33,845 This isn't as big as everybody's making it out to do. Be. 1143 00:52:33,845 --> 00:52:37,325 People are panicking, it's gonna be fine, don't worry. 1144 00:52:38,065 --> 00:52:40,005 And the truth of the matter is, 1145 00:52:40,125 --> 00:52:43,045 a dictator is gonna do everything in their power to 1146 00:52:43,895 --> 00:52:48,405 completely bulldoze over humanity and empathy 1147 00:52:48,785 --> 00:52:51,045 and understanding and family 1148 00:52:51,425 --> 00:52:55,645 and all of it to, to whatever ends is, is 1149 00:52:55,865 --> 00:52:57,165 to justify themselves. 1150 00:52:58,095 --> 00:53:02,385 - That's right. I mean, uh, 50 million people were killed, 1151 00:53:02,525 --> 00:53:05,865 uh, Germany, uh, two couple 1152 00:53:05,865 --> 00:53:07,505 of hundred thousand were able to get out. 1153 00:53:07,565 --> 00:53:10,785 So, uh, look at, look at the odds of, of, uh, survival. 1154 00:53:11,405 --> 00:53:14,105 Uh, but some people had the initiative, 1155 00:53:14,255 --> 00:53:17,585 some people had the good, uh, good luck of being able 1156 00:53:17,585 --> 00:53:20,265 to do it, and whatever it took to get out they did. 1157 00:53:20,605 --> 00:53:22,345 But I'm sure that you've spoken to people 1158 00:53:22,655 --> 00:53:25,325 that they've told stories probably much 1159 00:53:25,355 --> 00:53:27,445 more dramatic and much more. 1160 00:53:27,585 --> 00:53:31,285 Uh, so the fact that we got out and that we were intact 1161 00:53:31,345 --> 00:53:32,645 and that the family got out 1162 00:53:32,645 --> 00:53:36,605 and we got out, uh, relatively speaking, uh, comfortable, 1163 00:53:36,825 --> 00:53:40,005 uh, ways, uh, it was, was wonderful. 1164 00:53:40,265 --> 00:53:43,485 The only thing that, uh, you, you can't give back 1165 00:53:43,665 --> 00:53:45,805 to someone is the fear is, again, 1166 00:53:45,845 --> 00:53:47,045 I keep using the same word. 1167 00:53:47,305 --> 00:53:50,285 You can't, you can't repay and give back the fear 1168 00:53:50,385 --> 00:53:51,965 and the anxiety and, 1169 00:53:52,145 --> 00:53:54,325 and what what it costs in, in, 1170 00:53:54,385 --> 00:53:56,525 in personal emotional feelings. 1171 00:53:56,525 --> 00:53:59,325 You, you can't give back and you can't pay for it. Yeah. 1172 00:53:59,425 --> 00:54:03,445 So, uh, that, but fortunately, we, we were, we were out 1173 00:54:03,785 --> 00:54:07,165 and, uh, uh, of course we had Gary as you know, 1174 00:54:07,465 --> 00:54:08,805 and then we had, we have a daughter 1175 00:54:09,305 --> 00:54:11,245 and we are blessed with a grandson. 1176 00:54:11,625 --> 00:54:14,365 - And I understand now, in your later years, 1177 00:54:14,545 --> 00:54:16,765 you do volunteering with autistic children 1178 00:54:16,865 --> 00:54:18,485 or adults or both? 1179 00:54:19,645 --> 00:54:22,325 - I worked, I worked as a volunteer at the hospital at White 1180 00:54:22,385 --> 00:54:23,805 Plains for seven years. 1181 00:54:24,305 --> 00:54:27,525 And I've been doing, uh, autistic, working with autistic, 1182 00:54:27,625 --> 00:54:29,525 uh, children now for the last in, 1183 00:54:29,525 --> 00:54:30,525 - In their homes, not 1184 00:54:30,585 --> 00:54:31,725 - The hospital, their in their homes 1185 00:54:32,065 --> 00:54:33,245 for the last nine years. 1186 00:54:33,835 --> 00:54:35,085 - What brought you to do that work? 1187 00:54:36,005 --> 00:54:40,255 - Because I felt it was time to give something back. 1188 00:54:40,365 --> 00:54:42,935 Well, you were retired. Yeah, I was retired, so I was able 1189 00:54:42,935 --> 00:54:45,215 to do it, but I felt that this was, yeah, 1190 00:54:45,235 --> 00:54:46,255 you had to do something. 1191 00:54:46,275 --> 00:54:47,455 You just couldn't sit around. 1192 00:54:47,735 --> 00:54:50,095 I mean, I have friends who are wonderful people, 1193 00:54:50,195 --> 00:54:52,975 but you know, they play golf or they played golf 1194 00:54:52,995 --> 00:54:54,895 and they, whatever it is, 1195 00:54:55,115 --> 00:54:57,135 but I felt, you gotta do something, 1196 00:54:57,135 --> 00:54:58,255 you gotta give something back. 1197 00:54:59,165 --> 00:55:01,705 And the volunteering at the hospital started this whole 1198 00:55:01,705 --> 00:55:05,505 thing, which was a very, very nice, uh, experience. 1199 00:55:06,125 --> 00:55:07,905 And, uh, I enjoyed it. 1200 00:55:08,025 --> 00:55:10,385 I mean, I, I didn't do it, uh, begrudgingly. 1201 00:55:10,465 --> 00:55:11,625 I, I enjoyed doing it so 1202 00:55:11,625 --> 00:55:12,625 - Well. 1203 00:55:12,625 --> 00:55:13,225 He, when he said he was volunteering, 1204 00:55:13,285 --> 00:55:14,945 he was a patient's advocate. 1205 00:55:15,085 --> 00:55:16,185 That's what he did at the 1206 00:55:16,505 --> 00:55:17,505 - Hospital. 1207 00:55:17,505 --> 00:55:18,145 Yeah. I, I was an advocate for, 1208 00:55:18,365 --> 00:55:19,905 for patients and for their families. 1209 00:55:19,925 --> 00:55:23,945 And didn't one of your students just get a degree? Yes, yes. 1210 00:55:24,085 --> 00:55:25,745 Yes. He got, he became a college. 1211 00:55:26,485 --> 00:55:30,825 He got, he's got his ba It took, it took a long time, 1212 00:55:30,895 --> 00:55:33,145 took years, but, uh, you know, 1213 00:55:33,205 --> 00:55:34,745 one course at a time type of a thing. 1214 00:55:35,045 --> 00:55:38,425 But it's, it's so, so sometimes things are, are, 1215 00:55:38,525 --> 00:55:41,095 um, work out nicely. What 1216 00:55:41,095 --> 00:55:44,295 - Have you learned during that work with autistic kids? 1217 00:55:44,295 --> 00:55:46,615 What have you learned about yourself and about autism? 1218 00:55:47,875 --> 00:55:48,875 - Very - Good 1219 00:55:48,875 --> 00:55:49,725 - Question. 1220 00:55:49,725 --> 00:55:51,645 That's very, very good. Do you, do you have another hour, 1221 00:55:52,605 --> 00:55:53,605 - ? 1222 00:55:54,225 --> 00:55:56,485 - No. What I've learned basically is, 1223 00:55:56,905 --> 00:55:59,365 and the only, the only thing that I've always 1224 00:55:59,885 --> 00:56:02,365 employed was the fact that I never try to teach. 1225 00:56:02,585 --> 00:56:04,045 You know, there's all levels on 1226 00:56:04,045 --> 00:56:05,325 the spectrum, as you well know. 1227 00:56:05,785 --> 00:56:08,365 And some, some of the kids are quite good at certain things 1228 00:56:08,385 --> 00:56:09,645 and other others are not. 1229 00:56:10,065 --> 00:56:13,045 But the important thing that I've always done 1230 00:56:13,105 --> 00:56:16,245 and continue to do is I work on the things 1231 00:56:16,275 --> 00:56:17,565 that they do best. 1232 00:56:18,065 --> 00:56:21,445 And I try to improve what they already know to do. 1233 00:56:22,325 --> 00:56:25,965 I don't try to teach 'em something that frustrates them 1234 00:56:26,145 --> 00:56:28,925 or that makes them apprehensive or that makes them angry 1235 00:56:29,185 --> 00:56:32,845 or that causes a, uh, any emotional problem. 1236 00:56:33,445 --> 00:56:36,805 I, I, I enhance what they know how to do. 1237 00:56:36,985 --> 00:56:38,885 For instance, if they know how to add a little bit, 1238 00:56:39,465 --> 00:56:42,805 we do a lot of adding and try to work on subtracting 1239 00:56:42,965 --> 00:56:44,045 'cause it's in the same area. 1240 00:56:44,585 --> 00:56:48,045 Uh, if it's a matter of reading, uh, we try to get, 1241 00:56:48,345 --> 00:56:50,485 use bigger words than the little words. 1242 00:56:50,945 --> 00:56:52,405 The the point of autism 1243 00:56:52,665 --> 00:56:56,765 or teaching autism is to work on their self-esteem. 1244 00:56:57,145 --> 00:56:58,405 And that's all that counts. 1245 00:56:58,985 --> 00:57:01,805 And if they can improve what they already know 1246 00:57:01,805 --> 00:57:03,565 and get better at it, they feel good. 1247 00:57:03,585 --> 00:57:06,125 But if you try to teach 'em something that they don't know, 1248 00:57:06,195 --> 00:57:08,165 they get frustrated and they become angry. 1249 00:57:08,305 --> 00:57:09,365 So I stay away from that. 1250 00:57:09,585 --> 00:57:12,725 So I only work on the things that they already know 1251 00:57:12,865 --> 00:57:14,005 and, and develop that. 1252 00:57:14,245 --> 00:57:15,525 Hmm. And that's really the whole thing. 1253 00:57:15,865 --> 00:57:18,525 And never get angry with 'em, and never get frustrated with, 1254 00:57:18,745 --> 00:57:19,925 and never get impatient with him 1255 00:57:19,995 --> 00:57:24,445 because in order to learn how to spell the word, uh, dog, 1256 00:57:24,865 --> 00:57:26,005 it could take two weeks. 1257 00:57:26,025 --> 00:57:28,885 It could take three weeks. Uh, I'm serious. He 1258 00:57:28,995 --> 00:57:30,845 - Also teaches them how to go shopping. 1259 00:57:30,985 --> 00:57:33,405 He will go with them into the supermarket to teach 'em how 1260 00:57:33,405 --> 00:57:35,645 to buy a product to shop. They're 1261 00:57:35,645 --> 00:57:36,645 - All good kids. 1262 00:57:36,645 --> 00:57:38,805 And if they live terrible by our standards, 1263 00:57:38,805 --> 00:57:40,165 they live terrible lives. 1264 00:57:40,345 --> 00:57:43,445 And, uh, so you try to help just like, uh, 1265 00:57:43,505 --> 00:57:45,485 we got help coming outta Germany. What 1266 00:57:45,485 --> 00:57:46,485 - Have they taught you? 1267 00:57:46,485 --> 00:57:48,525 What have those kids taught you personally? 1268 00:57:49,435 --> 00:57:54,125 - They've taught me that, uh, I'm a little bit better person 1269 00:57:54,125 --> 00:57:55,765 that I thought maybe I was. 1270 00:57:56,065 --> 00:57:57,685 Mm. And, uh, 1271 00:57:57,895 --> 00:57:59,485 - Susan, I don't know if this hashtag 1272 00:57:59,705 --> 00:58:01,845 or if this is something that you'd be interested in, 1273 00:58:01,905 --> 00:58:04,245 but when Harry, Harry, and I traveled a lot, 1274 00:58:04,385 --> 00:58:05,645 and we always traveled alone. 1275 00:58:05,665 --> 00:58:07,285 And we had a guy in Prague 1276 00:58:08,065 --> 00:58:11,005 and she lived through, uh, the Russian occupation, 1277 00:58:11,005 --> 00:58:12,245 the German occupation. 1278 00:58:12,905 --> 00:58:16,685 And I asked her, which was more difficult to live under, 1279 00:58:17,145 --> 00:58:18,565 and she said it was much easier 1280 00:58:18,705 --> 00:58:20,565 to live under the German occupation 1281 00:58:20,565 --> 00:58:23,965 because they kept everything, records, records, 1282 00:58:24,265 --> 00:58:26,525 and they kept the buildings beautiful and everything. 1283 00:58:26,625 --> 00:58:29,085 But the Russians came in and destroyed everything. 1284 00:58:29,085 --> 00:58:30,125 They leveled everything. 1285 00:58:30,125 --> 00:58:31,445 They didn't care about records 1286 00:58:32,145 --> 00:58:36,445 and that it was much easier to live under German occupation. 1287 00:58:36,445 --> 00:58:38,165 And she had two sons who were doctors 1288 00:58:38,305 --> 00:58:40,445 and they were allowed to practice under the German 1289 00:58:40,535 --> 00:58:43,085 occupation, but under Russian occupation, 1290 00:58:43,085 --> 00:58:44,365 they weren't allowed to practice. 1291 00:58:44,755 --> 00:58:48,925 - Yeah, I, I, I marveled in, in a, in a way how the 1292 00:58:49,515 --> 00:58:50,565 Germans were able 1293 00:58:50,625 --> 00:58:53,485 to rebuild Germany within a short period of time. 1294 00:58:53,585 --> 00:58:56,205 Of course, you had the Marshall plan, which helped them. 1295 00:58:56,955 --> 00:58:59,085 America gave a huge amount of money to, 1296 00:58:59,545 --> 00:59:00,765 to Germany to rebuild. 1297 00:59:01,065 --> 00:59:04,805 But the, when I was, when I was in Germany as a soldier, 1298 00:59:05,185 --> 00:59:08,565 the army, sometimes I had trouble finding bomb ruins. 1299 00:59:09,125 --> 00:59:10,565 I mean, this was in 1950. 1300 00:59:11,145 --> 00:59:12,965 So, uh, the war ended in 45 1301 00:59:13,345 --> 00:59:16,365 and within five years, they built things up again. 1302 00:59:16,425 --> 00:59:20,285 It was just amazing how they were able to reestablish their, 1303 00:59:20,285 --> 00:59:21,325 their, their, their cities 1304 00:59:21,425 --> 00:59:23,005 and their, their infrastructure 1305 00:59:23,265 --> 00:59:24,485 in a very short period of time. 1306 00:59:24,555 --> 00:59:26,725 - Yeah. America did that with Japan as well. 1307 00:59:27,365 --> 00:59:29,845 - Absolutely, yes. And it, it's not a coincidence 1308 00:59:29,845 --> 00:59:33,805 that Germany is the most powerful country in Europe right 1309 00:59:33,805 --> 00:59:35,325 now, and Japan is 1310 00:59:35,325 --> 00:59:38,125 what the third largest economy in the world. 1311 00:59:38,825 --> 00:59:41,525 So they, in both of those instances, 1312 00:59:42,625 --> 00:59:43,965 we learned from the Treaty 1313 00:59:43,965 --> 00:59:45,645 of Versailles not to do that again. 1314 00:59:45,985 --> 00:59:47,245 And we built Germany 1315 00:59:47,345 --> 00:59:49,405 and Japan into powerful countries 1316 00:59:49,405 --> 00:59:51,005 that they remain. And that's a good thing. 1317 00:59:51,695 --> 00:59:53,525 - Isn't it ironic, though, that the two countries 1318 00:59:53,525 --> 00:59:54,765 that we fought the most with 1319 00:59:54,765 --> 00:59:56,885 and hate the most are best friends now? 1320 00:59:56,895 --> 00:59:58,805 Isn't that, isn't that, uh, kind of 1321 00:59:59,065 --> 01:00:00,065 - It is. 1322 01:00:00,065 --> 01:00:02,245 And we're doing trade with Vietnam now too. So 1323 01:00:02,805 --> 01:00:04,565 - I think what you're doing, Susan, is terrific. 1324 01:00:04,675 --> 01:00:06,005 It's wonderful. You, you're, 1325 01:00:06,185 --> 01:00:09,045 you're keeping certain things alive that I, I think, 1326 01:00:09,315 --> 01:00:11,245 need to be kept alive. 1327 01:00:11,425 --> 01:00:14,085 Uh, for, for some of the younger people today 1328 01:00:14,085 --> 01:00:16,805 who aren't aware of some of these things that happened 1329 01:00:16,825 --> 01:00:19,045 or none of these things that happened, I think it's, 1330 01:00:19,075 --> 01:00:20,405 they should know about these things. 1331 01:00:20,695 --> 01:00:22,685 Maybe it'll, it'll help them in their outlook 1332 01:00:23,175 --> 01:00:24,285 today here in America. 1333 01:00:24,895 --> 01:00:27,765 - Thank you. I appreciate that very much. Thank you. 1334 01:00:28,345 --> 01:00:31,845 - Can I share one little Germany anecdote too for me 1335 01:00:31,845 --> 01:00:33,925 with our spelling before we wrap up? 1336 01:00:34,105 --> 01:00:37,325 So, as you know from our previous talk, Susan, 1337 01:00:38,085 --> 01:00:39,285 I produced a lot of movies 1338 01:00:39,505 --> 01:00:42,925 and one of them was a very big hit in Germany, 1339 01:00:43,625 --> 01:00:46,245 and I do the, all the posters 1340 01:00:46,245 --> 01:00:47,725 and lobby cards as the producer. 1341 01:00:47,925 --> 01:00:49,005 I sign off on everything. 1342 01:00:49,325 --> 01:00:53,685 I send all the artwork to the distributor in Germany with 1343 01:00:54,525 --> 01:00:57,685 MAN as our name, and I always get the paper 1344 01:00:57,695 --> 01:01:01,245 after the movie hit the theaters, and I got the poster back 1345 01:01:01,505 --> 01:01:02,645 and it had two ends. 1346 01:01:03,145 --> 01:01:05,885 And I went, what, what are you doing? I, I mean, literally. 1347 01:01:05,945 --> 01:01:08,525 And he said, oh, well, you only put one N on your name. 1348 01:01:08,865 --> 01:01:10,685 So I corrected it to two ends, 1349 01:01:10,685 --> 01:01:13,125 and I remember sharing that with my dad. 1350 01:01:13,285 --> 01:01:16,525 I said, even after all these decades, we're still bettman 1351 01:01:17,105 --> 01:01:19,285 no matter how hard we tried back in Germany. 1352 01:01:19,425 --> 01:01:21,885 And, and, and in fact, the, the film, we, 1353 01:01:22,065 --> 01:01:24,085 we literally just had a reissue of 1354 01:01:24,085 --> 01:01:25,285 that film called Death Rink. 1355 01:01:25,285 --> 01:01:27,405 So for some reason that's a big hit in Germany, 1356 01:01:27,545 --> 01:01:32,285 but it was funny to see the two ends back in the name again. 1357 01:01:33,065 --> 01:01:34,065 Germany. 1358 01:01:35,835 --> 01:01:37,175 - One other question I have for you. 1359 01:01:38,475 --> 01:01:41,695 How, what is the oldest, uh, person that you've interviewed? 1360 01:01:41,995 --> 01:01:43,255 Uh, from, uh, from Germany. 1361 01:01:44,005 --> 01:01:46,775 - From Germany, you - really? 1362 01:01:47,285 --> 01:01:49,655 - Yeah. The oldest person I've ever had on the podcast 1363 01:01:49,795 --> 01:01:52,695 though, uh, 9, 2 99 year olds 1364 01:01:53,355 --> 01:01:55,535 - Really survivors from, from where? 1365 01:01:56,155 --> 01:01:58,815 - Uh, one 99-year-old. She's still alive. 1366 01:01:58,935 --> 01:02:00,375 I think she just turned 101. 1367 01:02:00,675 --> 01:02:02,335 She is the daughter of a sharecropper 1368 01:02:02,355 --> 01:02:04,415 and her story was incredible. 1369 01:02:05,355 --> 01:02:10,295 And the other, she grew up in the Pacific Northwest 1370 01:02:11,115 --> 01:02:14,575 and just passed away a couple years ago, so she made it 1371 01:02:14,575 --> 01:02:16,135 to almost to a hundred, but not quite. 1372 01:02:16,845 --> 01:02:18,055 - Well, the reason I ask you, 1373 01:02:18,055 --> 01:02:19,565 because I'd like you to do me a favor. 1374 01:02:19,745 --> 01:02:21,325 Mm. When I'm, uh, when I turn 1375 01:02:21,325 --> 01:02:23,445 to be a hundred years old, we'll do this again. I'm done, 1376 01:02:23,605 --> 01:02:24,605 - . 1377 01:02:24,605 --> 01:02:25,525 I love it. Yes, please. Thank you. 1378 01:02:26,425 --> 01:02:29,605 And Harry, I really appreciate you being on the show. 1379 01:02:29,895 --> 01:02:32,725 Thank you so much. Thank you, Gary, for facilitating. 1380 01:02:32,725 --> 01:02:34,605 Thank you, Janet, for your insights as well. 1381 01:02:34,685 --> 01:02:38,165 I really appreciate, I think it's so important 1382 01:02:38,185 --> 01:02:41,365 to get these stories out and heard and so, 1383 01:02:41,465 --> 01:02:43,485 and I know that your time is valuable, 1384 01:02:43,625 --> 01:02:46,405 and thank you so much for being on the show. 1385 01:02:47,355 --> 01:02:49,125 - Well, if you ever come into New York City, 1386 01:02:49,225 --> 01:02:50,645 let us know and we'll 1387 01:02:50,645 --> 01:02:51,645 - Take you around. 1388 01:02:51,645 --> 01:02:53,325 Thank you. I'll take you up on that. We'd 1389 01:02:53,325 --> 01:02:54,325 - Love to see you. 1390 01:02:54,325 --> 01:02:56,245 Thank you very much, Gary. Do you Thank you too. 1391 01:02:56,395 --> 01:02:57,805 - Yeah, no, I'm glad we could do it. 1392 01:02:57,845 --> 01:02:59,365 I, a big se Thank you, Susan. 1393 01:02:59,465 --> 01:03:01,365 You were the, the reason this is all happening. 1394 01:03:01,465 --> 01:03:02,965 So thanks again. 1395 01:03:03,095 --> 01:03:04,565 - Thank you for listening, everyone. 1396 01:03:05,305 --> 01:03:06,525 Bye everybody. Thank you. 1397 01:03:07,355 --> 01:03:09,325 - Okay, bye - Bye-Bye. 1398 01:03:12,135 --> 01:03:14,085 - Great review and subscribe to, Hey, 1399 01:03:14,205 --> 01:03:16,205 human podcast on iTunes, Spotify, 1400 01:03:16,945 --> 01:03:18,485 iHeart, wherever you get your podcast. 1401 01:03:19,065 --> 01:03:20,285 Thanks. Bye.