- Hey, humans.
How's it going? Susan, Ruth here.
Thanks for listening to another episode
of Hey Human Podcast.
This is episode 399, and my guest is Harry Bettman.
Harry was a young boy when his family made their escape from
Nazi Germany under Hitler.
He recounts his experiences
and discusses his family, including parents, Irma
and Arthur Grandparents, Marie and Sigmund,
and his younger brother, Ralph.
Gary Bettman, Harry's son is also joining us.
You might recall that I interviewed Gary a few weeks back.
His episode's really wonderful,
so definitely check that one out.
Many of us are descended from people
who experienced the extraordinary
or endured the unimaginable,
and it's really important to me to make sure
that their stories aren't lost to time and history.
I'm honored that Harry shared his childhood memories with me
and us, and at nearly 100 years of age,
Harry shows no signs of slowing down.
He's currently working with and helping autistic kids.
It was such a delight to talk with Harry.
I love talking with older people of a certain generation,
and I'm always in awe, honestly, a
that, that they're still around.
It's, it's a feat unto it. It's itself.
And the fact that, I don't know,
I think about like my dad
and a lot of people I know who are in their later years
and just their stories.
There's so many great stories from their lifetime,
and I, I say this often on this show,
I'm gonna say it again.
If you get the chance to record your parents,
your grandparents, interview them style, you know, like,
like this is, and find out their stories,
stuff you maybe you never knew about.
It's wild when people start opening up and,
and really recounting their life.
There's magic, you know?
Anyway, I'm waxing poetic, but you get the idea.
I'm really excited that Harriet was on the show,
really thankful to Gary for helping to , helping
to get it all going on.
There was some technical difficulties in the beginning
trying to get the zooms working and all of that,
but we prevailed and this is the result.
Check out, Hey, human podcast.com for links,
and to learn more about my guests in the show,
check out Susan ruth.com to learn about me
and my other artistic endeavors.
Follow Susan Ruths and hey, human podcast on social media.
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So definitely wherever you want to do it. Do it.
Sounds good. Thank you for listening.
Be well, be love and stay healthy.
Okay, here we go.
Harry Bettman, welcome to Hey, human.
- Thank you very much. Glad to be here.
And I'm hope hopeful that, uh, this thing works fine
for the next, uh, 20 minutes or a half hour.
- Yeah, well, uh, I do too.
I think we finally figured all our technical difficulties.
And Gary, uh, you're,
you're being the interloper. I appreciate you being here
- Too.
Absolute. No, I'm here to add some, uh, little details in,
in case my father skips a few.
There's a a lot of moving parts to the whole odyssey
of he's what he's about to share.
- Yeah. - All right. Well, let's, let's jump in. Harry.
Yes. Tell me where and when were you born?
- I was born in Zandor, which is a suburb
of j of, uh, Berlin.
And I was born in 1929, March of 1929.
- Do you remember much about your childhood?
I mean, that was a time where there was a lot of upheaval.
Beginning when
- We left Germany, just to back up a minute.
We left Germany in 1933.
At that point, I was four years old, not a brother
born, and he was two.
My brother was two years younger than I was,
two and a half years younger.
So he of course never remembered anything
because he was just too young.
I have certain memories of certain things,
which some are very poignant
and others, uh, are just what,
what a young person would remember at that age.
By the way, all these things
that I've been doing now since we started this whole thing,
uh, certain memories came up
that I really never, uh, encountered.
I never thought of, uh, as an example, when I was,
uh, three
and a half years old, my grandmother
who lived in another area, which I'll get to later,
was visiting us in, in Berlin,
and I was walking on a promenade with her, uh,
un in Linden.
Was, is the name of the, uh, the promenade.
It's, of course it's still there.
And pro it was a prominent road,
and there was a, uh, an auto automobile parade coming by,
and I looked to see, because there was a lot of noise
and a lot of people yelling and cheering, I looked
and I saw a open car
with a man standing in the car waving to the people who at
that point had, uh, congregated on that road.
And as I was looking at him, my grandmother took me
and turned my head away and said, don't look.
And it turned out to be Hitler, out of Hitler.
And, uh, that somehow has stood in my state of my mind
because of the fear, obviously, even at that early moment
of, of seeing this, this, this, this, this murderer.
Getting back to the original, uh, story
that I wanted to mention to you.
We lived, we lived in, as I said, in
and, uh, my, um, mother's parents in the,
in the house that, uh, that we lived in.
My mother's parents died prior to my,
my birth, so I didn't know them.
My father had, uh, parents
who lived in a town about a hundred miles from Berlin in a,
uh, in a small town in Bavaria.
The reason I mention that is my mother, uh,
came from a very wealthy home and was the only daughter.
My father, on the other hand, came from a small town,
which was a typical middle class type of a town.
Town was six
or 8,000 people in the latter part of 1933, of course,
before we left, I was in the nursery school.
And, uh, my par my parents were notified
that I could no longer come to nursery school
because, uh, Jewish Jews were not, uh, welcome.
So of obviously, I, I left that, uh, portion of it,
and that really, I think, convinced everybody
or started to convince everybody exactly what was going on.
My father realized what was happening.
By the way, my parents, my mother
was 20 years old at the time.
My father was 27. So there, there were basically kids.
We were young people at that, up to that point,
facing a wonderful future
because the financial, uh, situation was, was wonderful.
And, uh, everything was good.
People in Germany at that time,
especially the Jewish people in Germany at that time,
loved Berlin.
They loved Germany, and Germany loved them.
They were very happy. They, they were Germans and, uh,
and then Jews secondary,
and most, in most Americans are Americans first,
and Jews se secondary.
So, uh, it was, it was a feeling of comfort
that most Jews had in Germany up to this point.
- A lot of the Jews served in World War I, along
with the German as Germans. Correct?
- Absolutely. And, and, and proudly so,
because that, that was their country.
They were proud of their country. They loved it.
But of course, uh, you know, we don't have
to, we, we all know what
- Happened.
In fact, Susan, to to that point there, there were thousands
of Jews who died for the Kaiser.
- That's right, - Uh, in the first war.
And in fact, that the top aviation world is called the Blue
Max, and that was given to the very best
of the aviators.
And there was a Jewish German pilot named Wilhem
Frankel, who won the Blue Max.
He's the only Jewish pilot in the first war
that actually won that award.
So the Jews served in big numbers honorably in the first
war, all the more astonishing, considering
what was gonna happen 20 years later.
- As a matter of fact, my great grandfather did serve,
and I don't know the details of his service,
and I don't know what, what rank he became,
but he served and was wounded.
But I didn't know much about that
because that information really wasn't passed along to me.
I guess I was too young, or there were other things
that became, uh, more prevalent and and so on.
- And so your father was starting
to see the writing on the wall.
They were telling little Jewish children,
they couldn't come to nursery school.
- Yes. Yes. And,
and following that, shortly thereafter,
my father received a visit from a high school friend of his,
and this is again, in the early part of 1933.
My father received a visit from a friend
of a high school friend of his, who is now a Nazi
- Party member, - A party member,
or some kind of a important, someone in the Nazi party.
I dunno if it was a, so a, uh, military,
but, uh, whatever it was,
he was connected with the Nazi party.
And, uh, he said to my father, you have
to leave Germany, Germany immediately.
You have to leave Berlin immediately,
because they're coming to get all the rich Jewish men,
and whatever they do with them, incarcerate them
or threaten them or to take their money or whatever.
So my father, at that very moment, I mean, that, that day,
that hour got into his car and drove to Switzerland.
My parents were skiers,
and they had a, uh, they had a ski house in Switzerland.
My father got into his car carrying
what he just could carry in his pockets and a, and a
and a small bag, and drove to, uh, Switzerland,
because, uh, he was told that, of course, uh, he was, had
to stay away for a few weeks until this thing cooled off.
My mother subsequently, shortly thereafter, joined him,
uh, secretly.
And, uh, they planned the escape from Germany.
At that point, my mother was convinced,
but by the way, I don't know if I've just mentioned it,
my mother thought that she was, she was wealthy,
and she was German.
And she said she thought that possibly this whole thing may,
uh, pass by.
My father was convinced it wouldn't.
So, uh, he was strong enough in his will to eventually
convince her of what was happening.
And of course, it didn't take too much to convince,
because, uh, things started to go downhill
for all the Jews in, in Germany, uh, the, this,
the businesses that they had were, uh, robbed,
stones were thrown, and glass was brought. Did
- That happen at the, at grandma
and Grandpa's store, where they were?
Yes. So, 'cause it explain how that they had the store,
and this was the height of the depression.
The early thirties times were bad all over the world,
and the store was vandalized.
- Well, it was vandalized because of the religious factor.
- Right. But people were
as appreciably even more desperate at that time,
- Apparently.
So of course, the, the, it was the beginning of the, uh,
of depression, the world.
Absolutely. So that combined with the racial
and religious problem, really, uh,
created a tremendous problem.
And a again, you know, I just wanted to say one thing.
This, this whole story that we have that we're talking about
has to do with really three, three things.
We are talking about fear, insecurity, and resolve.
That's what people went through.
And I can't imagine,
and most of us can't, how it feels to be in your twenties,
have a family with two children and have to suddenly get up
and just leave everything behind, which they had
to do every, except of course, what they could sell
and what they could smuggle,
but leave your whole life behind at that age
and be able to do it, uh, successfully.
Now, uh, in addition to our leaving, to my father's leaving,
he said he wouldn't leave without his parents.
So his parents were at that point,
considered, you know, older people.
They were in their fifties. So at that point, my father
was able to convince his mother
and father to sell their house and their belongings,
and join us to leave.
Otherwise, he said he's not going without them, which
of course, eventually acquiesced.
It wasn't easy. But they also thought this
thing would, would go by
- How long did the planning that grandma
and grandpa, how many weeks
or months as they were meeting, uh, uh, skiing their,
their rendezvous, skiing, and how did that all go down?
Because you had to get rid of, they had to get rid
of the business also.
Right. So this, this has worked, this, how many weeks
or months in the planning is this escape?
- Well, I can tell you by, by backing up a little bit,
because this whole, the, we left in, in, in the 1933,
the latter part of 1933,
and the whole thing really, uh, came
to a head in the earlier part of, so I would say
probably five or six months, the whole thing had
to be taken, had to be done. And
- Just to contextualize for the listeners that Hitler there,
people were starving, people were poor,
and Hitler found scapegoats in the Jewish people
who were, some were very prosperous,
and they said, look at all these
people who have all this money.
They're terrible. They've stolen all your money.
And that was his rhetoric.
- That's right. That's exactly right.
The only thing is that he did promise,
and this this deviates a little bit from my story, uh,
but he did promise Germans, all Germans, other than
of course, the Jews and, and, and the homosexuals
and the, the Catholics and so on.
But he did promise Germany a better
Germany, and they believed it.
You know, he was, he was a, he was a, a orator.
He was a convincing individual,
which we've had subsequently in different areas,
in different countries, including ours.
Uh, he was an orator,
and he promised a better life,
even though there was a depression,
- He promised to make Germany great again.
Hmm. Sound familiar?
- That's exactly what I'm, I'm alluding to.
It sounds very familiar
and very frighteningly similar at, anyway, getting back.
So the plans were made, uh, businesses were sold,
properties were sold at a, at a great loss.
And all the monies that were received
for selling all these things had to be somehow worked on
to be able to take with, there was, there was a limit to
how much money you could take out.
What I'm getting at is the money that they got
for all these possessions
and all these things that were sold, we turned,
they turned into diamonds.
And the diamonds are, were eventually,
and I can give you the details on it,
the diamonds were smuggled out.
And that's what really allowed this entire trip
that I'm going to mention to you, happened in those days,
suitcases were made out of leather, uh,
usually very fine leather,
but it was always in two layers,
an outer layer and an inner layer.
Uh, what they did, what my parents did, was able
to open up the layers
and place the diamonds in between the layers of, of leather,
sew them back up again
and, uh, bring them, bring the suitcases
to their original, uh, state.
And there was no way of knowing what's in between.
And of course, it was a, a very, uh, sophisticated way
of smuggling in those days.
- They used to go into their clothing as well, correct?
- Well, the clothing was, was more difficult
because, uh, there was a limit to
how much clothing you could carry.
Uh, there was a limit to how you could do it in clothing.
The, the, the, the leather in
between leather suitcases was a not ideal thing
because it didn't show,
and, uh, it wasn't looked for in clothing, you know,
you get, you get searched and you get stripped and whatever,
but in, in the, in the leather suitcase, uh, it dis it kind
of disappears to the public.
- Well, I actually thought from, to Susan's point,
that there grandma did
smuggle some things out in a coat
once. A couple things too.
- Yeah, she did in some clothing,
but most of it was done through, uh, through, uh,
leather suitcases.
And don't forget, you know, when,
when six people are traveling, you have a lot of suitcases.
So anyway, the plans were made
within a few months period of time.
And my grandparents had sold everything that they had.
Plans were made to come to America.
Now, my grandmother had a nephew in Ma New York,
which is Westchester County in New York State.
Had a nephew there who was, was going to help us volunteer
to give us as the, as much assistance, not financially,
but to, to give us the information that was necessary
as to how to come here.
And the important thing to remember is in those days,
we didn't have, we didn't have, uh, computers.
We didn't have, uh, long distance telephones.
Everything was done by Western Union.
So the communication was also a problem.
But through Western Union, he, he volunteered to give us
as much assistance as possible, which by the way, he did.
My father had a secretary who, a Jewish lady
who also wanted to, uh, leave with us.
And of course, she joined us in our, uh, plans.
Uh, the thing is, what to do, where to go,
until America opened the gates to us.
And of course, in those days,
the immigration was very stringent.
The immigration laws in America are very stringent.
There were only a certain amount of people were allowed in
and so on and so forth.
So we were rejected as far as an immediate, uh, acceptance.
But in order to get out of Germany, we had to go someplace.
Now, the only place that really, uh, was willing
to accept people in those days, that was,
that was within reason, distance reason was France.
So we got, they, they were able to acquire visas,
uh, for France.
So we had a six month visa for all of us to go
to France, which we did.
We got the, by the time everything was packed up,
and by the time everything was ready to go, the Visas
took us to Paris, France, where we lived for six months,
until the Visas there ran out.
And we had to leave there because of the expiration.
As I say, the Visas.
The next stop was, was, uh, triste Italy,
where we got a three month visa.
So we stayed in, by the way,
staying in these different places.
It also always meant staying in a hotel.
You couldn't, uh, rent the house. You couldn't rent rooms.
It was, you never knew
how long this whole thing was gonna be.
So we went to Triste.
They were able to get the visas for Tris for three months
until the visas there ran out.
And what to do then. Well, we had to go someplace.
So they went, we went to Palestine at that time,
under the rule of, uh, the British.
And, uh, we landed by, we went to boat by boat from Tris
to Palestine.
We got off the boat, uh, moved into an apartment in,
uh, in Haifa.
The area was called Carmel, Mount Carmel.
And we stayed there waiting again until, uh,
being able to come to America.
So this, this time it's 1934.
At this point now, it's, now it's 1934. That's correct.
- And you're still traveling? There's, there's seven of you.
- Well, we were still traveling.
- And what was the secretary's name again?
- There? The name was, was Maria Zan, the six Batmans
and Mar and Maria Marie Marie, the
- The Nazi official, who alerted grandpa
to, to get out right away as the plans were being made
to sell things and plan this, basically this escape.
Did he ever resurface, do you know, to either help?
- I don't know, but I have a feeling that he became, uh, uh,
he disappeared, so to speak, as well as my parents.
In other words, the relationship disappeared
and rightfully so,
because, uh, they, no one wanna, no one wanted
to get involved with anyone else.
You know, this was something
that they, everyone walked away from.
After that he was felt responsible after what he did.
And he didn't wanna get involved because
otherwise, his, his future was in,
- In the planning of the leaving, I guess there, there had
to be a certain amount of secrecy.
And yet, if you're selling a business
and you're selling a home, how secret can that be?
- That's exactly right.
And that's why I mentioned to you
before this, my parents lived in fear
as a result of everything you just said.
It was a, it was a 24 hour fear factor,
uh, which living that way, I can't quite envision
because I, I couldn't do that for a week.
But they would did it for months.
In fact, they did it for years
until we finally arrived here.
I'm trying to feel how it would be
if I had to do this today.
And I don't think I could do this.
But, uh, as I said before, you have resolve,
and you have, uh, uh, you have the will to go.
- You moved around first to France and Italy.
I mean, obviously Italy was not exactly friends to the Jews.
No. And you were so young,
I don't even know if you could answer this exactly.
But as you're moving from place to place,
and antisemitism is getting to a fever pitch,
anti JW is getting to a fever pitch.
How is your family reacting to that as you're moving around?
Are you hiding while you're doing this,
or are you out in the open?
- No, no, we're out. They're out in the open.
But they're not making themselves too obvious.
In other words, uh, they didn't, they didn't go into town
and go to a theater and that type of a thing.
We stayed within certain limits
and did not being too obvious.
We did, they didn't hide,
but they were always afraid of, uh, something happening.
That, that's, that's the point I was making.
So you kept a, what's the expression of low profile
or as low profile as you possibly could?
- Well, and then you're at a point too, dad,
where you would be in kindergarten or preschool,
and you couldn't, you couldn't go
to school in those other countries, obviously, either
until you got to Palestine.
- Palestine. Again, I went to nursery school,
but I don't remember much about it.
And it was a very, really a short kind of thing.
My, my grandmother became ill in Palestine,
because the weather was terrible.
She was older. Of course, in those days, if you were 50
or 60 years old, you, you were pretty old.
. So she became ill. Uh, it was a very unhappy place.
A Palestine in those days was, was desert
and heat, air conditioning, of course, was an unknown thing.
Uh, money was always a concern.
So there were lots of problems.
And the, the being Jewish and Palestine didn't help
- The British mandate. And
- They weren't particularly friendly to Jews either.
You know, there, there was a great deal of antisemitism, uh,
amongst them in those days.
The Brits, you mean? Yes, the British, yeah.
The Bri and the British rule was, was a very,
uh, uh, iron hand.
I mean, they were very, uh, uh, very difficult people to,
to, uh, to live under.
'cause I remember one time we went to, to the beach in, in,
in Haifa, and I saw, uh,
crates upon crates of oranges floating from a ship
that stood off, uh, approximately a half a mile floating up
to the beach, people scrambling to open these crates
of oranges and running away with the oranges.
So apparently there was, these were,
these were Jewish, uh, traitors.
So apparently there was, uh, there was some type of a, uh,
insurrection that took place.
And the, the ship was attacked,
and the oranges crates were thrown overboard,
and they floated to the, uh, to the beach.
So apparently that was also a, a, uh, uh,
an anti-Jewish, uh, type of, uh,
thing that, that took place. I don't remember that.
- Well, we know, we know actually what, after the war ended,
and so many Holocaust survivors wanted to get to Palestine,
hoping it would become Israel,
and the British had the blockade, and they That's right.
There's a lot of the whole Exodus story.
- That's right. Meanwhile, this, the secretary
that we talked about, my father's secretary,
we talked about, became homesick for Germany,
and, uh, went back to Germany
and ended up being murdered in Auschwitz.
So, which was also a, uh, very difficult thing for, for us.
- Did she not realize what she was going back to?
- She didn't think that she thought
that things would improve.
She was so homesick for her family.
Remember, she came by herself.
So her family was still in Germany,
and she became so homesick for her family
and for what she had at that point, that, uh,
she went back and took a chance.
And unfortunately, uh, was, was murdered. That's
- The quintessential bad decision.
- You know, something, Gary, this whole thing,
life itself is, is, is a matter of decisions.
You make good ones and you make bad ones. Right.
And, uh, she made a bad decision, unfortunately.
But any, anyway, finally, we, um, received word
that we could come to America
and, uh, under, with certain provisions, uh, my parents had
to put up, uh, $10,000 for each person coming here so
that we wouldn't be considered wards of the country,
of the state, uh, which was they were able to do, you have
to prove that you had it in case you needed it.
So you wouldn't, you wouldn't have to become a, uh, uh,
you wouldn't have to look for a hand out
to become dependent in America.
So that was, that was taken care of.
- And that's $10,000 in 1930 $4.
- That's right. In 1930,
- Which today would be, I don't know, a lot.
- Yeah. Well, as I said, it was, it was a bond.
It wasn't that you lost it, you just had to prove it. You
- Had to prove it.
Yeah. You had to prove that you were bringing
something to the country.
A lot of, a lot of countries require that.
- Sure. And this was a,
this was a per person thing, you know? So six people,
- That's a lot.
And throughout all of this, grandma
and grandpa, obviously, were living on what they were able
to smuggle out, and it's not like they had jobs
in Triste, right.
Where they were just living off the smuggles.
- Exactly. But the only thing that they did do,
while they were in Palestine, my,
my father bought some properties there,
and, uh, I, I'm not sure how it worked,
but I know he bought properties and probably sold some
and made some profits.
So, uh, I'm not a hundred percent sure of that,
but I know he bought, I don't know what,
how much he made on it, but he did have properties.
- And you, you didn't mention how you went
to some free school in, in Palestine.
You had some schooling
and learned Hebrew a little bit. I went to
- Nurse, yeah, I went to nursery school
for a short period of time.
Obviously, we were only there for one year.
So I went to nursery school for probably for half a year
or whatever it was, and started to learn
as a young child learns Hebrew, which I don't remember,
didn't remember after that.
But it, it was something that we tried to
carry on normal, as normal a life as everyone could.
And that was going, sending your kids to school.
My brother was too young, so he was home.
So, uh, finally, as I said, the, the,
the thing worked out in America, we were able to, uh,
we got the permission to come here.
We got on a, uh, boat.
My, uh, parents, when we, we received the, the willingness
to, to come here, they bought a house in I New York
where the, where the nephew was.
And, uh, and a car.
So that we had a place to come to, I mean, we, a place
to live when we got here, which they did, which was, uh,
quite unusual because again,
it was all through Western Union.
There was no, no telephone.
It was always through Western Union.
And that delayed things a little bit.
But the, the, the frustration of waiting
and waiting constantly,
and the fear that things wouldn't work out was always there.
But fortunately, we got on a, both the SS Majestic was a,
uh, Kard line,
and we left, uh, Haifa, uh, by way of, uh, Egypt.
We stopped in Cairo, Cairo from there to South Hampton
and from South Hampton to New York,
which was a 10 day trip in those days.
I mean, the Mediterranean and then the Atlantic.
So that was a 10 day trip.
And we, fortunately the money was, uh, there,
so we were able to go first class,
and that was quite comfortable.
And that was probably, as I recall, probably one of the most
relaxing things that the family had.
Uh, it'd be those 10 days on the, on the boat.
They felt a little bit more secure
because they now were away from all the places
that created all this fear.
The only thing, because it was the anticipation of getting
to America, not being able to speak the language
and not knowing what's going to happen next.
Anyway, we got to America and, uh, uh, went to the house
and, uh, started our lives in, in America.
My parents didn't speak English. I, I, of course didn't.
And once we got to America, I was sent to school.
I would think probably within a few months of arriving here,
maybe even sooner, not speaking English.
I was put in, I was, by the way, I was six years old at
that point, and I was sent to, uh, kindergarten,
didn't speak the language.
So I kind of lost out the year, which I made back.
They gave me back a year later,
once I was able to speak the language.
- So you jumped, you jumped ahead of grade at that point.
- Jumped one, one grade into the grade
that I was supposed to be in.
- I'm sure there was an awareness,
even though you were quite young,
that things were going from bad to worse in Germany.
And then by the time you got to America,
the sentiment toward Germans was souring, I'm sure.
And so now you're not only Jewish, but you're also German.
- You're absolutely right, Susan.
I was gonna mention the fact that you're gonna, you,
you'll smile at my next statement,
but we did America, Americanize our names.
Instead of having two ends at the end of our last name,
we cut it down to one.
So that, that gave us a little bit of, uh, also
- Let you pretend that you were
- From Paris.
And, uh, my brother always, always said to,
he wasn't Germany, he was from, from Paris.
- So the, instead the name was Beman, and it became Beman.
It softened a German.
- That's right. But Susan's a hundred percent correct in
what she's German.
Germans, particularly German Jews, were not particularly,
uh, popular in America.
Uh, you know, the, the Jewish part of it would,
may have been one thing, but being German.
So again, a low profile, not speaking of the language,
not knowing anything about our country, our new country,
it created more, uh, apprehension and, and so on.
As you can all imagine, my parents went
to school to learn English.
I learned it, of course, very quickly.
'cause young people learned the language.
They went, they, they, uh, had to learn the new ways, the,
the, the, the the ways in America how to, how to behave
and, uh, what to do, the, all, all, all the things
that no one really knows until they get to a country
that are different from the country that they left.
Anyway, they learned language.
My grandparents didn't because they chose not to.
So they really never learned English.
And they really never became, uh, Americans as,
as official Americans.
I mean, they loved the country,
but they, they officially did not partake in
being an American.
And they were, they stayed home.
I'm flu in German today
because I spoke to, I spoke to my grandparents,
my grandmother who survived my grandfather.
And here we are at a house, didn't land the language,
couldn't drive the car until they were able
to learn how to do this.
My parents were able to do this.
My father went into their business, into the retail women's,
uh, ready to wear the business, women's fashions,
and started a business, started a store.
And, uh, obviously they worked very, worked very hard
with my mother, and it did pretty well.
And then they moved to White Plains,
which was a larger town at that time.
And, uh, went into a bigger store,
and again, progressed into another store and another store.
And things went very well for them.
I do remember how very hard they worked.
And I also remember
how my father's insecurity remained with him.
My mother, I don't quite remember as being as insecure
as my father, but my father was always felt,
never felt quite at ease as a result of this entire, uh,
process that took place in the last past few
years when they were in the house.
How he locked all doors. Yeah, my father would check,
lock the doors and lock the house and windows and windows
and make, make sure that they, every night.
Yeah. And some of this, I, I must admit, passed onto me
because, uh, by absorption
or by, by whatever, whatever the process is
that creates something that goes from one child,
from one parent to a child, I also had certain bits
of security, so to speak. Well,
- I mean, it's a lot for a child to endure.
My God. And then I'm curious, that generational trauma
also of leaving behind everything your family knew
to start again, and then realizing that everyone you knew
and loved who didn't get out likely were going
to either perish or had perished.
Right. That, um, that's a lot of displacement.
And then coming to a, I don't even know how you would,
as a young boy learn to form, uh, your identity,
because you've had to acquiesce everywhere you went
to become whomever you were in the moment.
- You, you're a hundred, you're
a hundred percent right, Susan.
Uh, children absorb a lot of these, uh, problems
that the parents have, not directly,
but some, something remains with the kids that it has to.
But, uh, you know, you, you learn, you learn
how to, uh, you learn how to get along
and you learn the new ways you, as you well know.
I'm sure you, you're aware of the fact that
European behavior, generally speaking,
is somewhat different than the American behavior.
Europeans, Germans were much more a little formal,
a little stiffer in their, in their behavior.
And, uh, we were that way. I, I was that way.
I, I married, I married a, uh, an American gal
who, uh, I was able to change a little bit with
because this formality, this formal behavior kind
of, uh, drifted away.
And in 19, uh, 46,
- Well, what about 1938 with Ernst and Otto?
- Oh, yes. I'm glad you mentioned that.
My father and mother brought six, six other families, helped
to bring six other families over here.
Uh, one of them, one of the families was, uh, the Otto
Otto Beman archive, an archive a, uh, well known
ar archivist who no longer is, uh, living.
But he was well known and became very, very popular,
well known in in America.
No, in the world. In the world, yeah.
And, uh, his brother was a, uh, a doctor,
- But wasn't it, it the case by 38 that the Jews got out
with whatever they could Oh, yeah.
Quickly, by 38.
And so didn't explain how grandpa helped the relatives
to get out helping.
- The, at that point was, was primarily being sponsored
to them, and, uh, finding a place for them to live
and moving the process
that takes a long time along a little bit faster, so
that could get out faster.
Uh, and again, sponsoring them, the laws changed
to some extent, where you were, you were responsible
for them up to certain point.
I don't know how much financially,
but you were responsible for them
if they needed the finances and so on and so forth.
The country wasn't going to help them,
but the sponsor would help them.
The laws changed a little bit as to how,
how we people were brought out.
It became a little bit more, uh, it became a little easier
because of the problems that were going on in, in the world.
They all made it here, and they all did fairly well.
Uh, the older ones had more trouble
because, you know, older people have a more difficulty in,
in assimilating and then getting, learning the new habits.
But everybody was here
and, uh, that they tried to bring her.
That's what people did in those days.
They helped each other come to America if they could.
- Did the Jews that were already in America,
did the communities embrace you,
or was there a disconnect there as well?
- We all embraced each other.
You know, it's like, uh, Well, I'm get,
I'm gimme a second.
We all embrace each other
because we all went through the same thing.
We all wanted to survive.
And, uh, you, you would take anyone's help
for anything to, to be helped.
I mean, you, you, you, we helped each other.
That's the only way that people could live in those days.
Uh, the ones that, uh, that came from,
we all shared in the same problems.
That's really what I'm saying. So we commiserated
with each other and helped each others, uh,
very much so, very much so.
And stayed, stayed friendly together.
Uh, all the years that they were here,
I think all the people that my parents knew who came over
remained their friends until they eventually moved
someplace else, or they died.
So there was a camaraderie, so to speak, amongst people
who, who were survivors.
- But that was more the comradery
that existed within the German Jewish world.
- Yes, yes, yes.
- There was still an insular feeling about being a German
Jew versus maybe Ashkenazi or, right. Well,
- I think Gary, I think that's something that, uh, has been,
has historically been the same.
Uh, there's always been some rif
or some division between the various groups of Jews,
even in good times or bad times.
Uh, but the, the thing, the thing that impressed me now
that I have the afterthought, impressed me that the people
who did survive hung together.
They embraced each other. And, uh, for good reason.
I mean, we all shared the same problems,
and we all went through the same thing.
And we all all understood what it was,
what what everyone went through. Things
- Got better.
Many years later, every single song went back
- To Germany.
You know, it's an interesting thing.
My father and mother went back to Germany,
and I tried recently, I think Janet brought it up
because some people hated Germany
and never wanted to speak about Germany,
and never wanted to see Germany again.
But I think my parents who went back, uh,
took several trips back.
I think they had some kind of a bond, not
with the Nazis, of course,
but they had some kind of a bond with the home
that they came from.
It's like going to see the house that you used to live in.
Uh, going back to take a look at the
old house 50 years later.
Well, the war was over in 45.
I think they started going back six
or seven or eight years later.
The irony of it all, I, after I graduated college,
- You graduated from Colgate.
- Colgate, which my brother did also.
Two years later, he became a lawyer and a,
and a judge in Terrytown.
After that, once I went in the Army, uh, this was
during the Korean War.
And, uh, I was fortunate enough not to have to go to Korea.
But where did I go? I went back to Germany
as an American soldier.
That was my round trip.
So, uh, it may, I was there for a year and a half.
It was interesting to go back to
where you came from under different conditions.
Uh, I was quite, uh, impressed with having
that experience.
- And Germany was going
through reconstruction at that point, still,
- The war was over.
And I was stationed in a very nice area that I was familiar
with, uh, I mean, that I'd become familiar with.
And I spoke to German, of course, that that, that,
that didn't hurt at the beginning.
I was very bitter about the whole thing
being in Germany and so on.
But after a while, uh, you know, you get used to things
and, uh, uh, I, I was now an American.
So I, I was proud of the fact that I was an American
and quite proud of the fact that I was in the Army.
- You know, it's interesting that people who I tell some
of this story too, they said,
does your father have a German accent?
I said, no, he doesn't. Uh, but my grandparents always did.
So there's always that point where you come to a new country
and you retain the accent of the country.
You left or you become an American. And I think,
- I think it's an age thing.
It depends on how old you are,
- Right?
And so he was right in that spot where he was still then.
And I remember a story, I think you told that.
And my father loves baseball, passed that on to me
and play, you know, all about baseball.
But I think that you said that grandpa just never really got
or embraced baseball.
'cause it was just so American.
- My father was loved soccer.
And by the way, I don't have an accent.
I never said I had an accent. .
- I have, I wanna share an anecdote about
my grandfather too.
I remember as a kid, when the house we grew up in, that
grandpa drove a Mercedes.
He had that cool little two-door
Mercedes, you remember that dad?
And he, I remember in the driveway,
and I was becoming aware at school at that time
of the Holocaust and all the horrors that went with it.
And I remember talking to my grandfather, so I'm about,
I don't know what young age, 10 years old, whatever it was.
And I said, grandpa, there's parts manufacturers
who aided and abetted the camps.
There's parts in this Mercedes. How could you?
And my grandfather said, basically said, it's a great car.
It's a German car. It doesn't get better.
He was so, yeah, he was so proud of the fact
that it was just German engineering.
And the other stuff was like,
it was about being German still.
- Yeah. Yeah. And you know what else Susan,
I I'm sure you've spoken to a lot of folks who, uh,
came from, from the Germany, from Germany.
After a while, the memories, memories never go away.
But they start to wane.
They start to get a little bit, uh, d con diffused.
And, uh, you, uh, think back
and you, you, you wonder, wonder why
and how these things happen
and, uh, what we're going through in the world right now,
which is horrendous in some of the countries.
Uh, I can so well understand the frustrations that
so many people are going through.
And I'm so sorry that most of us, most people
that I know don't do anything about it
or don't have the, uh, uh, empathy, either the empathy
or the willingness or the awareness to do anything.
We just sit by, like the Jews in Germany sat by
and they let Hitler just cut across, make a swath
through their, their midst and just kill them.
And, and, and it's so fearful.
I'm so fearful of what's happening here now that, uh, it's,
it's, of course, I'm, I'm too old
to really do much about it at this point,
but I wish I could do more than I'm doing.
How history repeats itself, how history is allowed
to repeat itself is noteworthy.
- I I fear that we won't get out of this 80 year cycle.
We seem to be in
- Yeah, yeah.
- Tell the story. When you and I went back to Germany
and for no reason whatsoever, you knew which street to take,
and you were left there when you were three.
- Janet and I went back, uh,
to Germany in the nineties after
- The wall came down, I think - Shortly thereafter.
And my grandparents lived in a small
town, as I said, in Bavaria.
And we drove, uh, to the town from Berlin.
And, uh, as I say, small town meaning six or 8,000 people
or something of that, of that effect.
Uh, by the way, that town, seven, 8,000 people had 500, uh,
400 Jews who lived there.
And one night, of course, this was during the,
during the war one night that they trucked all 400 Jews,
picked them up at midnight and took them up on a hill nearby
and machined gun them all to death.
There were no Jews further in that town, or ever again.
His name is Geza, G-E-I-S-A. It's in, in Bavaria. Right.
- And there's even a, a monument at Yad.
Em, when I visited Yad em for that,
my great grandparents' town,
- We were driving to this town.
'cause I wanted to see that the house, which I visited, uh,
quite often as a child, we approached this town.
Course, it was, the roads were not highways.
They weren't, they were, you know, uh, small, uh,
ancillary roads leading to this town.
And I for some reason got into the area near the town
and remembered the directions were I had
to make a right and a left.
But I, I remembered how to get to the house.
And I don't know how it was done,
but it, it impressed, uh, Janet, very much muscle
- Memory.
- He left and he said, no, we have to turn down this road.
I said, how could you possibly remember that?
- I'm curious, uh, how did you and Gianna meet?
- I was on my way back from college in Philadelphia.
And this girl on a train said to me, am I pinned
or am I engaged, or whatever.
And I lived in Bryan Manor, uh,
and I said, no, I'm neither.
And she said, well, I'm pinned to a guy who goes
to Cornell Law School.
Can I have him, the brother call you?
And I thought, this guy must be a real jerk
that he has some woman on the train picking up women fair.
And he, uh, came to Brian Cliff on a Sunday.
'cause he didn't wanna waste his time on a Friday
or a Saturday in case I was a dog.
And , he decided I wasn't.
And uh, six weeks later we were engaged.
- Oh my gosh. That's
- Amazing.
But, you know, it's, it's a blind date.
That's really what it was.
And then the person that my mom referenced became my aunt
- Was his brother, but the girl was my
- Sister-in-Law.
So they, they got married too.
So it was just one of those sliding doors, things that,
a different train, a different moment and schedule.
And none of this would've happened. Wow.
- I think Harry should tell you
that when we arrived at the house
where his grandparents lived, they weren't home.
We rang the doorbell
and the neighbor said, by the way, what's your name?
And he said, Beman. And she said, oh, the people
who bought the house from the Bemans,
the children still own the house.
With that, we got very lucky because the car drove up
and the people who own the house were in the car,
and they let us into the house.
So Harry got to go into the house
where his grandparents had lived
and his father grew up. Oh,
- I love that.
- And saw the house.
And then they told us a story, what it was like.
'cause this was in the eastern sector of, uh, Germany.
And they told us what it was like living under Russian rule
and how they had to get passes to go out
to the western sector.
And Harry, you know, walked around the house.
But I personally was more interested in their life
under the Russian rule.
But Harry got to see the house
and he remembered it completely,
even though he was only three years old.
- Wow. That's amazing.
I just, I recently had a woman on the podcast who was in,
uh, Eastern Germany when the wall was still up,
when it was still under Russian rule.
And she told her story about their getting out.
Uh, her family's getting out,
and it was really something. Yeah.
- Did the people that got the house from our family,
when you first introduced yourselves,
was there a momentary fear that the,
that you were coming back to claim Jewish property? Yes,
- A very good point, Gary.
You're a hundred percent right.
They thought we were coming back.
As a matter of fact, I did, did have the right
to make a claim on that house, which I, I, I didn't do,
uh, for a variety of reasons.
Uh, number one, I needed a lawyer in Germany.
I needed a lawyer here so
that there was a financial end of it.
And there, there was also a humane
humanitarian angle.
I mean, what was I gonna do?
Kick these people out of their house
the way I was kicked outta my house?
In other words, we did nothing.
They lived there and that was the end of it. The
- Susan ou got reparations. We
- Did get reparations.
We, we did receive monies from Germany
for a long period of time.
My parents, for a long period of time, I got something
because I really, uh, was not a wage earner.
And I had no basic value from the point
of income in those days.
So I got a few dollars,
but my parents was sent, received money until every
- Month - Until they, until they passed away. So
- It was basically like German guilt money
that they were sending that
- You guilt money.
Yeah. But I suppose it was a couple
of thousand dollars a month or something like that.
- Yeah. It's just, it's, it's such a curiosity, I think.
Well, what is a justifiable amount of money
for slaughtering an entire race of people?
- Well, what happened is it had to do the value of
what they had before they got there.
Because she was a, a rich Jew.
She got more than a poor Jew would've gotten.
- But I mean, every, all Jews got something. Yes.
All was just, not just my family,
- But she proved that she was a very affluent family.
So they got more money than somebody
that would not have been as affluent
- One thing differently, and none of you would be here.
- Right. It hadn't been for my father.
I mean, he's the one who, who really began this process
and insisted us this
- Could have easily gone a different direction,
in which case none of us are here talking.
- Well, and I think a lot of people thought,
to your point earlier, Harry, that a lot of people thought,
oh, this is gonna blow over.
This isn't as big as everybody's making it out to do. Be.
People are panicking, it's gonna be fine, don't worry.
And the truth of the matter is,
a dictator is gonna do everything in their power to
completely bulldoze over humanity and empathy
and understanding and family
and all of it to, to whatever ends is, is
to justify themselves.
- That's right. I mean, uh, 50 million people were killed,
uh, Germany, uh, two couple
of hundred thousand were able to get out.
So, uh, look at, look at the odds of, of, uh, survival.
Uh, but some people had the initiative,
some people had the good, uh, good luck of being able
to do it, and whatever it took to get out they did.
But I'm sure that you've spoken to people
that they've told stories probably much
more dramatic and much more.
Uh, so the fact that we got out and that we were intact
and that the family got out
and we got out, uh, relatively speaking, uh, comfortable,
uh, ways, uh, it was, was wonderful.
The only thing that, uh, you, you can't give back
to someone is the fear is, again,
I keep using the same word.
You can't, you can't repay and give back the fear
and the anxiety and,
and what what it costs in, in,
in personal emotional feelings.
You, you can't give back and you can't pay for it. Yeah.
So, uh, that, but fortunately, we, we were, we were out
and, uh, uh, of course we had Gary as you know,
and then we had, we have a daughter
and we are blessed with a grandson.
- And I understand now, in your later years,
you do volunteering with autistic children
or adults or both?
- I worked, I worked as a volunteer at the hospital at White
Plains for seven years.
And I've been doing, uh, autistic, working with autistic,
uh, children now for the last in,
- In their homes, not
- The hospital, their in their homes
for the last nine years.
- What brought you to do that work?
- Because I felt it was time to give something back.
Well, you were retired. Yeah, I was retired, so I was able
to do it, but I felt that this was, yeah,
you had to do something.
You just couldn't sit around.
I mean, I have friends who are wonderful people,
but you know, they play golf or they played golf
and they, whatever it is,
but I felt, you gotta do something,
you gotta give something back.
And the volunteering at the hospital started this whole
thing, which was a very, very nice, uh, experience.
And, uh, I enjoyed it.
I mean, I, I didn't do it, uh, begrudgingly.
I, I enjoyed doing it so
- Well.
He, when he said he was volunteering,
he was a patient's advocate.
That's what he did at the
- Hospital.
Yeah. I, I was an advocate for,
for patients and for their families.
And didn't one of your students just get a degree? Yes, yes.
Yes. He got, he became a college.
He got, he's got his ba It took, it took a long time,
took years, but, uh, you know,
one course at a time type of a thing.
But it's, it's so, so sometimes things are, are,
um, work out nicely. What
- Have you learned during that work with autistic kids?
What have you learned about yourself and about autism?
- Very - Good
- Question.
That's very, very good. Do you, do you have another hour,
- ?
- No. What I've learned basically is,
and the only, the only thing that I've always
employed was the fact that I never try to teach.
You know, there's all levels on
the spectrum, as you well know.
And some, some of the kids are quite good at certain things
and other others are not.
But the important thing that I've always done
and continue to do is I work on the things
that they do best.
And I try to improve what they already know to do.
I don't try to teach 'em something that frustrates them
or that makes them apprehensive or that makes them angry
or that causes a, uh, any emotional problem.
I, I, I enhance what they know how to do.
For instance, if they know how to add a little bit,
we do a lot of adding and try to work on subtracting
'cause it's in the same area.
Uh, if it's a matter of reading, uh, we try to get,
use bigger words than the little words.
The the point of autism
or teaching autism is to work on their self-esteem.
And that's all that counts.
And if they can improve what they already know
and get better at it, they feel good.
But if you try to teach 'em something that they don't know,
they get frustrated and they become angry.
So I stay away from that.
So I only work on the things that they already know
and, and develop that.
Hmm. And that's really the whole thing.
And never get angry with 'em, and never get frustrated with,
and never get impatient with him
because in order to learn how to spell the word, uh, dog,
it could take two weeks.
It could take three weeks. Uh, I'm serious. He
- Also teaches them how to go shopping.
He will go with them into the supermarket to teach 'em how
to buy a product to shop. They're
- All good kids.
And if they live terrible by our standards,
they live terrible lives.
And, uh, so you try to help just like, uh,
we got help coming outta Germany. What
- Have they taught you?
What have those kids taught you personally?
- They've taught me that, uh, I'm a little bit better person
that I thought maybe I was.
Mm. And, uh,
- Susan, I don't know if this hashtag
or if this is something that you'd be interested in,
but when Harry, Harry, and I traveled a lot,
and we always traveled alone.
And we had a guy in Prague
and she lived through, uh, the Russian occupation,
the German occupation.
And I asked her, which was more difficult to live under,
and she said it was much easier
to live under the German occupation
because they kept everything, records, records,
and they kept the buildings beautiful and everything.
But the Russians came in and destroyed everything.
They leveled everything.
They didn't care about records
and that it was much easier to live under German occupation.
And she had two sons who were doctors
and they were allowed to practice under the German
occupation, but under Russian occupation,
they weren't allowed to practice.
- Yeah, I, I, I marveled in, in a, in a way how the
Germans were able
to rebuild Germany within a short period of time.
Of course, you had the Marshall plan, which helped them.
America gave a huge amount of money to,
to Germany to rebuild.
But the, when I was, when I was in Germany as a soldier,
the army, sometimes I had trouble finding bomb ruins.
I mean, this was in 1950.
So, uh, the war ended in 45
and within five years, they built things up again.
It was just amazing how they were able to reestablish their,
their, their, their cities
and their, their infrastructure
in a very short period of time.
- Yeah. America did that with Japan as well.
- Absolutely, yes. And it, it's not a coincidence
that Germany is the most powerful country in Europe right
now, and Japan is
what the third largest economy in the world.
So they, in both of those instances,
we learned from the Treaty
of Versailles not to do that again.
And we built Germany
and Japan into powerful countries
that they remain. And that's a good thing.
- Isn't it ironic, though, that the two countries
that we fought the most with
and hate the most are best friends now?
Isn't that, isn't that, uh, kind of
- It is.
And we're doing trade with Vietnam now too. So
- I think what you're doing, Susan, is terrific.
It's wonderful. You, you're,
you're keeping certain things alive that I, I think,
need to be kept alive.
Uh, for, for some of the younger people today
who aren't aware of some of these things that happened
or none of these things that happened, I think it's,
they should know about these things.
Maybe it'll, it'll help them in their outlook
today here in America.
- Thank you. I appreciate that very much. Thank you.
- Can I share one little Germany anecdote too for me
with our spelling before we wrap up?
So, as you know from our previous talk, Susan,
I produced a lot of movies
and one of them was a very big hit in Germany,
and I do the, all the posters
and lobby cards as the producer.
I sign off on everything.
I send all the artwork to the distributor in Germany with
MAN as our name, and I always get the paper
after the movie hit the theaters, and I got the poster back
and it had two ends.
And I went, what, what are you doing? I, I mean, literally.
And he said, oh, well, you only put one N on your name.
So I corrected it to two ends,
and I remember sharing that with my dad.
I said, even after all these decades, we're still bettman
no matter how hard we tried back in Germany.
And, and, and in fact, the, the film, we,
we literally just had a reissue of
that film called Death Rink.
So for some reason that's a big hit in Germany,
but it was funny to see the two ends back in the name again.
Germany.
- One other question I have for you.
How, what is the oldest, uh, person that you've interviewed?
Uh, from, uh, from Germany.
- From Germany, you - really?
- Yeah. The oldest person I've ever had on the podcast
though, uh, 9, 2 99 year olds
- Really survivors from, from where?
- Uh, one 99-year-old. She's still alive.
I think she just turned 101.
She is the daughter of a sharecropper
and her story was incredible.
And the other, she grew up in the Pacific Northwest
and just passed away a couple years ago, so she made it
to almost to a hundred, but not quite.
- Well, the reason I ask you,
because I'd like you to do me a favor.
Mm. When I'm, uh, when I turn
to be a hundred years old, we'll do this again. I'm done,
- .
I love it. Yes, please. Thank you.
And Harry, I really appreciate you being on the show.
Thank you so much. Thank you, Gary, for facilitating.
Thank you, Janet, for your insights as well.
I really appreciate, I think it's so important
to get these stories out and heard and so,
and I know that your time is valuable,
and thank you so much for being on the show.
- Well, if you ever come into New York City,
let us know and we'll
- Take you around.
Thank you. I'll take you up on that. We'd
- Love to see you.
Thank you very much, Gary. Do you Thank you too.
- Yeah, no, I'm glad we could do it.
I, a big se Thank you, Susan.
You were the, the reason this is all happening.
So thanks again.
- Thank you for listening, everyone.
Bye everybody. Thank you.
- Okay, bye - Bye-Bye.
- Great review and subscribe to, Hey,
human podcast on iTunes, Spotify,
iHeart, wherever you get your podcast.
Thanks. Bye.