- Hey, humans.
How's it going? Susan Ruth here.
Thanks for listening to another episode
of Hey Human Podcast.
This is episode 398,
and my guest is Saba Ray.
Saba experienced more chaos
as a small child than some people experienced
their whole lives.
Born in Iran during the Iran Iraq war.
She bore witness to tragedy, terror, death, and violence.
Her family escaped
and eventually made their way to the United States
by way of Pakistan.
Her early years took their toll,
and she had to fight to save herself from the brink
as she learned to transform her pain into power.
I really enjoyed this conversation.
I think it's an important conversation.
And yeah, I mean, for lots of reasons beside the fact that
what she went through and how she got to the other side,
I think will resonate with a lot of people and,
and also just the triumph of it all,
I hope will also resonate.
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and the show, check out Susan ruth.com.
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Thank you for listening
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and getting the word out.
Be well, be kind, be love, hold each other up.
And here we go. Saba Ray,
welcome to Hey, human.
- Thank you. Thank you Su for having me. It's
- Lovely to see you.
- Yes, same here. Same here.
- I like to start these conversations by talking about
where you came from, what shaped you as a person
to bring you to who you are now.
So if, if you would talk about where you're from
and what your family life was like
and your experience around all of that.
- I was born in Iran, so I didn't grow up in the States,
um, in Iran.
I was born at a time where Iran and Iraq were at war.
I mean, imagine one of your first childhood memories being
bombs being dropped in your neighborhood.
So it's kinda, yeah, it's, it was wild.
So, and given the situation of what was happening in Iran at
that time, they had the, uh, Islamic Revolution.
Well, it wasn't, it wasn't a revolution.
It was more like a .
And it was, it was a, a downgrade.
They, it, my family had a hard time. We had a hard time.
Our background, uh, is in Bahai, so,
and they really gave a hard time to the Jewish people,
to the Baha people and the Christians as well.
And because of our background, when we try to escape,
my father was thrown in prison.
And there, when you go to prison, it was kind of like, well,
he's not getting out .
It was like, if they get the prison sentence, then he was
for sure gonna get killed in prison,
because when my father, the first time my father went
to prison, uh, he was telling us some
of the stories in there where at night they would come,
pull the prisoners out and line 'em up.
So every night they would count
how many shots were being fired
because that's how many people were being shot, killed.
And they would count 200 some nights.
I mean, it was horrific. So luckily he got out
and he said, you know what, I'm gonna go, uh, no, this,
I'm sorry, this, uh, the second time was, uh, he said,
let's all go together as a family, try to escape,
because you can't really leave there.
You have to escape, and we have
to get smuggled out of the country.
From the country or from the prison?
From, uh, no, from, uh, from the country. Yeah.
He got outta prison.
He got quite lucky to be, to even be able to get out.
And coincidentally enough, he was able to get out.
And then they, my parents got together
and said, let's, this was the second time I apologized.
He said, let me go in front of you guys, right?
And I will get to the us build a life for you,
and then I'll bring you guys out.
Well, he went, and then he got caught,
and he got thrown in prison again.
And this time my mom thought, that's it.
You know, it's, this is over.
And the way she would,
because women couldn't, especially given her background
of being a Baja, you couldn't work.
So there's no jobs you couldn't get paid.
And how she took care of us was she would sell cigarettes
to, to be able to provide.
And then she, luckily, one
of the family members gave her a job, uh,
to imprinting t-shirts.
So she was able to provide for us while my father was away.
And when she went to go visit him in prison, uh,
the second time, um, unfortunately,
she was raped by the guards there.
And it wasn't just one, it was a few,
and this happened, this was
regular, more than not.
And you, you could just,
and there, imagine the mentality here
for a moment, if something like that would happen
to a woman there, the husband,
the man would look at the woman as, um,
basically damaged goods.
And that, and I thought, man, that's just like how
that makes, how could you even think that?
Right. That makes no, um, sense
to me at all.
No humane sense. I can't say logical, but no humane sense.
So luckily my father is not that type of a man, uh,
growing up in that area of the world.
And so, given that
when my father got out again, he managed
to make I not friends, but to, uh, ally with some people.
And there where he was able to survive, you can say.
So when he got out again, he, they decided,
let's all go as a family.
So now this being a risk, there's three of us, three kids,
with my parents,
and they sold everything, put everything up for, you know,
grabbed the cash and we're gonna leave.
Then we found people
that smuggled people out of the country.
And this by itself is, is a risk because you don't know.
I mean, you really don't know what's gonna happen to you.
And so we did that,
and these people would drive.
I remember being in the back of a pickup truck,
and we would drive at dead at night.
There's no headlights because you, you're,
you're being smuggled out of the country, .
So, and at the risk of being caught, you,
you, you'd be killed.
There's, there's no, you know, buts, ORs about that.
- And how old are you at this time?
- I was about seven. - So you had an understanding
that we have to be quiet,
we have to be good, you know, good.
And, and get along so that terrible things don't happen.
- Oh, for sure. I mean, growing up as a kid,
my childhood was being careful of not being killed.
Uh, not being caught, always watching out for something, uh,
you know, horrific happening
because that's, there was no safety.
I didn't have any understanding of being safe.
So, yeah, we had to be super quiet.
I remember my mom, uh, gave some, um,
I don't know if it was a sleeping liquid,
but cold medicine to make my younger brother go to sleep
because he was an infant.
But I remember when we crossed over, I looked over,
he could see the white line of the border,
and that was like, you know, it was a really, uh, uh,
celebrating moment to say the least,
and be able to, uh, you know, a sigh of relief.
And, and we crossed over into the Pakistan
border in Pakistan.
And from there, , there's another story
where the next person that picked us up,
because it was, there was different, uh, drop,
drop off, uh, points.
So the next, uh, driver that picked us up, this guy took us
for this, it was like a rendezvous.
Like we thought we were lost, but this guy had other plans.
And if you could imagine a lot of human trafficking
and things goes on, on those routes.
So were lost in the desert for hours.
We thought we were lost. Well, and we didn't have any food.
We didn't have any water. I remember my brother
and my mom passed out
because they were dehydrated from dehydration.
I remember my dad telling
me, you know, you need to stay awake.
It's very important for you to stay awake.
So now I was trying to talk to my brother to keep him awake.
And luckily we got, uh, the, uh, police officers
of Pakistan found us.
And I remember looking at that man's face,
and he was looking down at me, and he looked at the driver
and he knew there was something off.
First of all, he gave us water, which was fantastic.
, I'll never forget that, water, .
And second, he decided to drive us to our next, uh, stop.
Which he, you know, he kind of saved our lives that day too,
which was remarkable.
- You think that it's likely that the man
who was driving you on the second point was a
human trafficker, probably.
- Oh, for sure. Because what had happened was
my father had my mom sit in the front
with him in the beginning,
because you were either sitting outside in the, uh, the bed
of the truck, or you could sit
inside was there was a little bit cooler air.
And as she was sitting there, she was kind
of passing out in a sense.
And then all of a sudden she felt like a warm
hand down her shirt.
Yeah. And then she's like, okay, whoa, stop.
But I want to go in the back.
So then she had my dad come to the front with me,
and she sat in the back.
So it was, yeah, it was the not,
not good where it was going.
And that kind of stuff happens.
You hear stories all the time.
Luckily enough we got found
and we made it to, uh, Pakistan to uh, uh,
get the asylum, and we were able to stay to,
we lived there in Pakistan for about a year
and a half to get our visas
to be able to come to the States.
So that was that.
- How did the family as a whole,
and I mean, at seven, I don't know
that if you would have an understanding of the violence
that had occurred to your mom,
but how does a family recover from such a violent act
of war to, to your point, to create women
who are damaged goods?
Rape is used as a, as a tool of war,
but how does the family deal with that afterward?
- Yeah. See that, that's where it's,
it's a pretty deep topic
because how it affected her, the way my mom was,
and mainly because of this, this,
and this is, you know, later on in life
where I can look back and reflect
and make sense of it all, is it, she was a very,
um, strong and driven woman, so she was very resourceful,
and she taught me how to be that as well.
But as far as being affectionate
and tender, not there,
because it was destroyed, that part
of her was absolutely destroyed.
And did it have negative impact on my parents' marriage?
Oh, for sure. I mean, she can,
when a woman experiences something like that,
she can never be the same in the bedroom, you know,
with her husband or, or anyone, as a matter of fact.
And I didn't receive a lot of, um, uh,
tender affection or just physical affection
because it just wasn't in their, um, constitution.
They did, they did the best they could with what they had.
But these were the side effects of, um,
how it would affect the children growing up in the house.
It takes a toll on, on you for sure.
And, and she, cons, cons, what's the word?
Um, compensated for, uh, working hard is what she did.
She made up for it in that arena.
And my father, luckily enough,
was a open-minded person growing up
in that side of the world.
He was very good and kind to her.
And, which I can respect,
because it's, it's not very common, unfortunately.
- Are your parents still with us?
- Yes. Yes they are. That's good to hear.
Yeah, they're in, uh, they're in California .
- Okay. That's where I am.
- Are you really? Oh, okay. Very nice. Yeah. Which, yeah,
- Santa Monica.
- Oh, okay. Yeah, they're up in, um, uh, mission Viejo.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
- Your arrival into asylum in Pakistan, how did,
how did that go as a family?
Were there, was the government there open armed,
or was it more we'll receive you
because we know you're coming from terror? Well,
- That actually went pretty well for us
because of the fact our religious background was in Bahai.
So they knew that we were on the,
you could say the target list
of being either killed, you know, assassinated.
So they took us in pretty well.
I know there was another gentleman that was with us,
but his background was Islam.
He was Muslim, and they didn't give it to him.
They send them back, which was horrible
because now he has to, you know, go back there
and be like, yeah, I didn't really try to escape it.
- That's a death sentence.
- Yes, pretty much. Yeah. Um, which was horrible.
But yeah, we, we were able to get it because of that.
Um, living there was not the best, um, living conditions.
I remember we used to sleep in on rooftops outside
and everybody was in one room and Yeah.
It was not the, our, it, we was so hot there.
I'll tell you this, , the way we cooled off our air
condition, it was that we would take the sheets
that we would sleep with that night
and wet them absolutely soak and wet.
And then we put that over a sleep outside
so the wind would blow.
And that was our AC .
- That's brilliant. That is brilliant.
And I imagine the language barrier was,
as you move into new spaces, it has
to be terrifying for a little kid.
- Kid, yeah. At first. 'cause you don't
understand what's going on.
And, you know, I did one thing that was more pleasant was
that you didn't hear bombs dropping guns being shot.
That was not going on, which was great.
Me and my older brother ended up speaking
the language fluently.
So we spoke,
or do I remember having quite a bit of fun with him.
We'd fly kites and things like that,
but it wasn't like, I,
I remember I really didn't wanna leave
when we were leaving Iran
because I was, um, I had a close relationship
with my grandma at the time.
'cause my mom was trying to provide,
and my father was in prison.
So I, I had a hard time just trying to break away from that
because I didn't really, um,
I didn't feel like I had a close relationship, you know,
with my parents because they weren't really there.
So it was kind of, uh, yeah, it it's been quite a ride. And
- Grandma couldn't come with - No, she couldn't come.
- Did she survive? - She actually, she did survive.
And then later, uh, act, I think it was 13 years ago,
or 14 years ago, we brought her to the us.
So she came and stayed with us,
and she passed away, um, two years ago, I wanna say.
- Oh, may, may her memory be a blessing.
- Thank you. . - Yeah.
Will you explain for the listeners, uh, what the Bahai Faith
believes, what the, what that is exactly?
- Sure. The Baha faith, they believe in,
all the religions say the same thing.
They believe in one God,
and they also believe in that every religion was meant
to come out in a certain time period.
And that we should all evolve with each, um, faith
that comes out with each religion.
So that's their main belief.
One of my favorite quote by the, uh, founder of the faith,
the Earth is, but one country,
and we're all the citizens of that.
So something like along that line.
- I love that. I believe that. Holy . Yeah.
What happens after Pakistan? And wait really quick.
Did you learn, uh,
to speak the language while you were there?
Or you already knew it coming there?
- No, while we were there. Yeah.
- Okay. That's - What I figured.
As kids, you're like a sponge. You pick things up so quick.
It's remarkable. I wish I could still do that. .
Okay. So from Pakistan, we come to the States, let's see,
we started out in California first,
and my parent, well, didn't speak,
obviously we didn't speak the language again,
so we had to start all over.
And given we had to, uh, had
to start a whole brand new life, my parents were working,
um, you know, minimum wage jobs from six in the
morning till 10 at night.
And we didn't have anyone watching over us.
So it was the TV raising us
and the siblings basically taking care of after each other.
And because of their fi our finances, we,
we didn't live in very good neighborhoods.
And as time went on, I started making really bad choices
and started getting into, uh, gang behaviors
and doing smoking and drugs
and alcohol that at a very early age, too early.
It was a rough upbringing trying to come here.
And the, the culture was completely different.
Trying to learn and, um, learning the language.
I mean, I learned how to speak English from watching, um,
New York gangster movies, .
- That's great. - Al Pacino, you know, all
that stuff. That's where I, and
- English, English is not an easy language to get.
- Yeah. It's, I remember I would sound things out.
Like I would just listen to someone
and I would think, oh, it's, it just sounds like this.
And then I'm like, no, that's how you do it. .
- Yeah. That's impressive, honestly, that
I keep thinking about what it's like for a kid.
I'm glad you had your siblings,
but the loneliness that the feeling of isolation, uh,
I'm not surprised that you would be pulled toward Mm-Hmm.
The, the more nefarious side of life as a kid.
Because even the worst things feel like love
if you are absent of love.
- Yeah, absolutely.
That's, that's spot on because yeah, it is.
You feel totally isolated.
And I remember I had a close relationship
with my older brother, but when we came to the States,
he was going through his own thing,
and he was one of those, you know, your typical, um, skinny
scrawny kid with cruelly froy hair.
So he would get picked on.
He was like your stereotypical nerd, right?
He would get picked on.
And I remember one time I came out, we went
to the same school once, I think it happened once,
and I came out and we're going home, and he came out
before me, and I looked down like the, the street
and I see him and there's three kids have 'em cornered,
and they're beating him up, like picking on him.
And then I just, you know, I, I don't know
what I was thinking, but I just dropped my bag
and I started running towards these kids,
and I like kicked one of them in the air,
and then they got scared and they went away.
But I think that made it worse
because now he is like, oh,
you got your younger sister coming in,
saving you, type of thing.
So our relationship kind of started going, you know,
in separate directions
and yeah, it was, he was not a,
he wasn't pleasant growing up, you know,
parents are never there, have to work all the time.
And my brother hates me
and , you know, it's just, it was not fun.
- How was the little one adjusting during this time?
- You know, he had, I would say in a lot of ways,
a much easier time than we did.
He was about, um, six months old when we left.
So he, he, he grew up in the States.
I mean, that, he's like, if it were to say if there was, um,
I would say we're bicultural, maybe Iranian American,
you know, we have that cultural background.
He's more American. He grew up here.
Like there's a lot I I learned later on in the years that
he doesn't really understand first .
He pretended like he did,
but he, does tell anybody sooner?
. But yeah, he, he had a, uh,
and you know, for him I would say
that maybe the hard part was at home was a completely
different, uh, culture and environment than was at school.
So it just, it didn't match up for him either,
you know, it's, yeah.
I think he doesn't have the memories
and, um, the experiences that me
and my older brother went through.
So he, he was kind of got a little bit of a blessing,
I guess, in that sense being.
Yeah.
- It must be surreal too for your parents,
because I think about, you know, Persia,
before it was Iran, what, what a mecca
and, you know, science and art and beautiful architecture
and intellectuals
and women in high powered positions
and, you know, all of that to go from that
to what it became.
- Oh, for sure. Yeah.
You know, the, the, how the story goes
is when the Shah was, uh, in power, um,
what they started, whoever was funding this,
so-called Revolution, um, they
sold it to the people as it was going to,
we're gonna change it from, uh, just, uh,
they called him a dictator.
Supposedly we're gonna change it from just giving it
to the kings and keep it in the family line to the people
to vote for who they want to be the President.
So that then the people are like, yeah, that's what we want.
You know, let's, let's go for that.
And lo
and behold, the same day the Aya
Khomeini came in within hours, not even hours, they said,
okay, from this day forth, the women have to cover up.
And everyone's going, wait, what?
And the military broke out in the streets,
and they were, in the beginning, they were killing people.
They were throwing people in prison, raping women.
And it was a mess.
But it's really horrific to think
that it could happen so fast.
It was like a flash.
And no one thought it was even possible.
I mean, if you look at pictures
before 1979 from Iran,
it's like a completely different world.
- Totally different world. - It's
- Totally different world.
Yeah. You would think it was New York
or something with better looking buildings.
.
- . Yeah. I mean,
the women were wearing like mini skirts,
- Really chic and gorgeous and Yeah,
- Absolutely.
It's really sad what happened. It's really sad.
It's like, well, I don't,
I don't think the Shaw was a dictator compared to,
you know, it's really, really sad what happened there.
Yeah. And the people, and they're still enduring it.
The women there, there's,
there's still people being assassinated because,
and the women are, you know, protesting more, taking their,
um, hijab off.
- Yes. And those women are now dead.
- Yeah. Yeah. And they, they get killed. I mean, I, yeah.
It's, it's horrific. I
- Followed a lot of that.
It's, it's horrific.
- Yeah. - Baby, sweet baby girls, you know,
16-year-old children, basically.
Yeah. Being murdered because they show their hair. Mm-Hmm.
- . Yeah. And one thing I can
admire about those, uh, women is that
they, you know, they have this,
what they want is this zest for life.
There's, they want their sovereignty.
It has nothing to do with religion.
It has to do with your sovereignty as a human being.
And when they do that, it's like, wow. Yeah.
It makes me,
- You, you can't help but become emotionally invested when
you watch those protests Mm-Hmm.
. And know that these women are,
and some men as well are standing up
and saying, some things are worth dying for.
- Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that, that, that to me is, is a life is a, it's a,
it is a heroic life well lived
because everyone else can look at that
and go, it's not so bad.
- Yeah. - Life is not so bad,
to have something like that,
that you are willing to die for it.
That's admirable. That's admirable.
- I agree. As you grew up
and did you think, okay, now I'm gonna go off to college
and become part of the American dream?
Or did you take some time?
'cause you had a lot of what we like to call trauma .
Yeah. To unburden yourself from
- Yeah, unfortunately, uh,
because of my , uh, traumas
and not having, um, someone there, I got, like I said,
I got into, uh, gang behavior and drugs and all that.
And it, yeah, I got in so much trouble
that my father decided to pull me outta school
in the middle of eighth grade.
So I didn't even finish eighth, I didn't go to high school.
I didn't finish eighth grade. And I ended up just getting my
GED and I went straight to college,
which was probably, it was a great thing.
And I got a full-time job and all that.
And yet still, it, there was this trauma, people
that have trauma, I understand what they go through.
I smoked for 24 years, and it was
because it was to keep this feeling inside,
which feels like this.
You're on this edge of rage, but you don't know why.
It kept that, you know, um, in, uh,
at bay, it kept it in check.
And I remember the, my lowest lows was, uh,
I was doing a lot of drugs
and I was, I mean, I was on my way
to exit pretty much.
That's how bad it was.
And I remember my parents couldn't do anything
because they didn't really, they weren't there
to discipline me to begin with.
So it's like, now they're gonna come in
and tell me, well, I don't think I'm gonna listen
to you, type of thing.
So then I told my parents, I said, look,
you're gonna take me to my cousin's place,
and you guys are gonna leave me there,
because if I did, I knew if I did not leave, I,
I would pretty much die.
And, and I, quite frankly, at that time, I really,
I was kind of like, okay, well if I do, then I do so.
And my mom thought, you know, what are you, she,
you can't just go live with somebody else
and you think she's just going to take you in.
But I'm like, I don't know. We're gonna find out .
So, and, and this time, I'm sorry,
to jump back in the story,
we were living in Arizona out of all places.
Not my favorite place, .
So we drove back to California
and, um, we stayed for the weekend.
And the next day, as my parents are leaving,
my mom pulls aside my cousin Nin.
And he tells, she tells her, well,
what gonna leave Barsova here with you?
And she is like, what now, ?
And she's like, yeah, I think she needs
to stay with you for a while.
And it was kind of like everybody knew what's going on,
but no one's saying anything.
One of those things. And she, you know,
she accepted and she took me in.
And that changed my life.
That was one of my turning points where I got
to see a completely different life.
It was refreshing. It was a fresh breath of air.
And it was, she was so, um, she was always there.
She was a lot more tender.
She was like, she's like a second mom to me, in a sense.
At the time, I was probably 18 or so.
So I cleaned up my, I was working there and I cleaned up,
and then all fast forward a little bit.
Still smoking though.
That's, that was a tough one to, to give up.
Then I decided, I got to a point, uh,
because given everything I went through,
I never wanted to get married.
And I never wanted to have kids
because I, I couldn't even deal with myself
and my own skin, let alone bring another human being in the
world and be with a partner that I trust being with.
It was just, it was, I couldn't do it.
So then finally when I got myself to a point
where I was starting to feel a little bit better about, uh,
myself, I, um, decided maybe I do wanna get married.
Maybe I, you know, so decided to get married.
And I thought, oh, gonna marry a Persian.
And he's a Baha and he's a friend of the family.
You know, all the check marks are checked.
This is gonna be great. .
Well, it turned out to be the worst marriage .
Well, the next worst thing in my life I did,
and this was, it turned out to be verbally abusive,
and it got to physical abuse.
And it was, and I would have to say,
given I experienced both, the verbal abuse is far greater.
It, it has a lasting on unfortunate impression on,
on someone when they get verbally abused. Um,
- It rewires the brain for certain,
- Yeah.
You lose all self-worth all self-confidence, you know?
And, um, I stayed longer than I should have.
And when I got divorced,
I did finally end up getting a divorce.
I, I couldn't take it. And he actually lived in Belgium.
So I had moved to Belgium to a whole complete another,
another new country .
I'm just, yeah, I just like pain, I guess. .
- And how old were you at this point?
- At this time, I was 27. Yeah, 27.
Uh, moved to Belgium.
And then when that went completely south,
and I would say if I were to take everything
and sum it up, that was like the, what do you call it?
It topped everything else off
that I had experience and just the
- Cherry, proverbial cherry on the cake.
- Yes. That's what it was.
And I felt like, yeah, I can't even explain
how broken a person feels
and everything just kind of was like, okay, well, you know,
I had to, I came back to the States
and I had to start all over again
and trying to put my life together,
figure out what I'm gonna do.
- Did you fall back into old habits at that point?
- Oh, when I ca first came back, yes. . Yeah,
- I would imagine.
- I mean, why wouldn't you? Right?
Yeah, I was, I was drinking quite a bit.
It was mostly drinking, I would say, you know, as far as
that point, doing any kind of drugs,
I might have done a little bit here and there,
but not as much as I was doing drinking
and smoking three months of, or,
or so, of just every single night of, uh,
drinking and trying to think what I'm gonna do
and what am I doing, and what is this life about?
And everything is just pain
and what the hell am I even doing
, you know, what is this?
It's just been crap from day one type of thing.
So then I said, okay, you know what?
This, when when you, then I started getting mad,
then you get in the angry phase.
When I got in the angry phase, I started doing things.
I said, okay, I'm gonna go back to college.
I'm, I went back to college, got my old job back,
started working, going back to college.
And then, um, one of my friends, he said, uh,
he, he said, why don't you try this network marketing thing?
And I've never had any interest. I said, okay, whatever.
Sign me up. I don't care.
And I went to one meeting,
and from this one meeting, the guy said, oh,
we're gonna have a speaker at one of our annual events.
And he, this guy is from one of the guys
that was in The Secret, I don't know if you're familiar.
Yeah. Mm-Hmm. . So I was like, yeah, okay,
I'll go check it out, whatever.
So I went and I saw him speak,
and it happened to be, um, uh, James, Arthur Ray.
And, and I'll, and I'll tell the rest of the story, ,
he, uh, I saw him speak
and when I saw him on stage, it, it grabbed me
because he was so raw and real,
and I totally could, uh, relate to him
because of my own pain that I was going through.
And he was going through his own, um, pain
as well, uh, come to find out.
So anyway, I liked how when he came into the room,
it was like this, you could just feel it,
it was like this surge of something.
Some, it, it was a, it was a good energy vibe
and it was strong.
And I was like, I want some of that
because I don't have at all.
So I went up and,
and I, I did, I kind of stalked them on Facebook
and I got a job with them, .
I said, hire me. Here's what I do, .
And I don't care what it is I do.
'cause I told him everything I do administrative work,
I do graphic design work and all this.
And blah. I ended up doing his, um, uh,
social media for him online.
So he's in the space of helping you get through your stuff
and dealing with your traumas and learning.
And he doesn't like
to be put in the personal development, what do you call it?
Category. And I've never been fond of it either.
So through the, we end up becoming really good friends.
'cause we used to hang out
with each other all the time 'cause we worked together.
So we became really good friends.
And at the time, I didn't wanna
have anything to do with a man.
And he didn't wanna have anything to do with a woman kind
of figure where I'm going with the story, .
So I'm working for him. And it was a fantastic job.
I love my job. And we became really good friends.
We had a good time together.
And I, and then you could tell
that there's, um, what do you call it?
The, the attraction is there.
So then we decided to talk about that.
And we did, we talked about it in, in spades.
Should we get into a relat? Should we not?
Should we, should we not? And we decided to.
And uh, we ended up getting married.
And now, uh, he works for me. No, I'm kidding.
- . All men work for their women.
Uh, . Uh, do you, how did you,
along the way then, you're still carrying this trauma,
how did you unravel that?
And maybe you did it with your husband,
it sounded like maybe you were trauma
bonding a little bit with each other.
Sure. How do you, how did you start to where,
what turned the corner, I guess is I'm asking?
- So he didn't know. I smoked . Let me start there.
'cause I've smoked for a very long time. It was 24 years.
And I had gotten to a point where I said, okay, if I'm going
to keep my one relationship with them,
second my job, I have to.
And I wanted to quit. See, I, I wanted to quit.
Ever since I started, I, I, what I really wanted was
to be able to live a life that didn't have any
of these attachments.
You know, when you go through these things and these traumas
and you have these bad habits, you, you,
you can't see like the day, the, the light of day.
And what I really wanted was a life
that didn't have any of that.
Is that even possible? Right?
And for an addict, you think there's, there's no way.
How can that even be possible
because you think that's who you are.
So I told him, Hey, so I smoke
and I kind of need your help to quit.
And he's sweet enough. He was like, okay.
Uh, he took it well, and he did help me.
And what I did this time, here's what I did,
and this is how I, uh, went through all the traumas,
and he helped me with it as well, was I quit.
But what I didn't do was substitute for something else
to suppress whatever was coming out.
And it was not fun. I mean, it was, it was a hellacious.
The first year was super hell , and he stuck with me,
and we worked through it.
And I had, and I was lucky enough to have someone with me
that this is pretty much what he does for a living.
And here's the other, the, the other interesting part was I,
I didn't, um, I was skeptical of these kind of stuff.
I mean, you can't help me with my trauma, you know?
- So he was, so your husband was the one
that was basically being the therapist,
for lack of a better word? Or,
- Yeah.
And I'll tell you, you can say, yeah, you can say that.
Sure. I remember the first time we did, he, he, we didn't,
we do these things, it's called like a process,
and it's like a, um, it's a meditative,
experiential, uh, thing.
You go through where he was doing,
and he said, let's just do it for fun,
because I wasn't open to doing it.
I'm like, yeah, I'm not,
I'm not gonna let anybody in here type of thing.
So, so we did it.
And what happened was that I had this physiological reaction
to it where I started having a panic attack.
And then I thought, holy crap, there's, this stuff is real.
And that's, and
- It's down deep. Yeah.
- It was really deep
because it was something I thought, I,
you know, just forget it.
It's okay. You know, it's not that big of a deal,
and that's what you tell yourself to be able to cope.
But I thought, wow.
- Yeah, when it comes out, it feels,
I use the word primal when I've gone through that kind
of an experience, uh, doing for myself, it was energy work,
but having it manifest itself into basically
primal screaming and feeling like a, almost like an infant.
Just wailing. Yeah.
- Yeah. It's - Like where that,
and having your brain go, okay, I know I'm here in this room
and I'm not that person that's screaming and wailing.
That's insane. But you're the person screaming and wailing
and it's like, it comes out of some part of you.
It's a Pandora's box, right.
That you've locked away, thrown the key.
- Yeah, for sure.
I mean, it was, it was, and that made me a believer.
I'm like, okay, , but then let's go to town.
Let's see, you know, what's in there.
So we, he, we started doing the work, and as we did that,
and I will tell you, okay,
not only doing the energetic work, like you said, right?
I did other things as far as, uh, your physical body.
So I changed my diet. I started eating cleaner.
So I did it very slowly in the stages until I got
to a point, it wasn't, uh, it, it,
it had subsided quite a bit.
It didn't have, because I always had this, um, edge
that was on the verge of, um, what's that?
Um, not anger,
but above anger, rage, , I, I,
it is a pretty horrible feeling.
And the way I would take that edge off
before was with either drugged their cigarettes.
So then I started working out
and I started doing intense workouts to subside that.
So then I did this for a long period of time,
and I can tell you the first year that I started feeling
somewhat, I could say normal
and not need to do anything, to have to subside any
of these feelings and just be a normal person, was,
um, two years ago,
so it's been seven years total that I've quit everything.
Anything like drugs, alcohol, um,
cigarettes, all that stuff.
- And I, I do think that it is sometimes even the things
that seemingly are good for us,
and I talk about that on the show a lot,
that you can replace an addiction with something
that is seemingly healthy,
but it still isn't really getting
to the root of the problem.
It's just still masking it.
Running 30 miles a week isn't,
it might be a healthier response than smoking or drinking
or doing drugs, but it doesn't, still doesn't get
to the root.
- Oh, that's, that's a great point. Yes.
Because e exactly to your point, I, I did that for,
um, short periods of time, meaning, so I would do that
to subside it, and then we go and deal with what's next.
And it's, and, and, and I think a lot of people,
it is good for them to know.
And I'm sure, you know, it takes a, it takes a lot of work
and it takes a long time to clean all this stuff out.
- I don't even know that it ever ends, honestly.
I think it's an ongoing process of just life.
Because I, I mean, I think about what's going on in the
world right now, and I think, well, how do you,
somebody who's been through war torn countries and horror
and bombs dropping, that has to, I would imagine, uh,
create A-P-T-S-D of, in a sense, to even turn on the news
and see what's going on in Gaza
or, you know, uh, any of the number of places
where these sorts of things happen on a daily basis.
- Sure. Yeah. No, I, I totally agree.
The only differences when you do the cleanup work on
yourself is this, you don't have your past tr you are
not, um, let's see.
You're not emotionally hooked by them.
So they no longer control you. They're there. Mm.
View 'em as an experience that you have gained,
and it no longer triggers you where you're reacting.
Now you have the ability to see things
and choose to act, which is totally different, right.
- That is alchemy. - Yeah. Yes, it is. .
So you're, yeah. So, you know, yes, it is.
It's absolutely taking something. It's
- Transmuting the, the experience
and turning it into something.
It doesn't take away the experience. Mm-Hmm. .
But it, it means that you don't react the same.
- Yeah. And that, yeah, that's, that's,
that is true alchemy.
It's to be able to take something of lower value
and transmitter than something of higher value.
Mm-Hmm. , that's what it's, and, and,
and I think if people look at their past experiences
and say, not to look at 'em and go, oh, I've had it bad,
or I've had it, you know, so crummy or my life is this
or that, but those are the things that were gifted
to you that was wrapped in, you know, crap for .
Right? But if you could look at those
and learn what you're supposed to learn from them, then it,
then you become the person you're supposed to be,
become in the first place.
And it, and it does lead you to where you're supposed
to live, the life that you're supposed to live.
Like, if you would've told me 10 years ago
that I would have the life that I have now
and become the person that I am now, I would say,
there's no way you're, you're smoking something.
Because that, I, I don't even, that's not even in my view.
I can't even picture that. How is that even possible?
And yet it's possible.
And that, you know, if, if anyone would,
could take anything from my story is if no matter
how broken you feel,
you can absolutely have a completely brand new life.
You just have to work at it.
It's hard, it's hard work,
but it'll be the best work you've
ever done in your entire life.
- What was the most surprising thing about yourself
that you discovered in that seven year process?
And I'm sure it's, oh, you're still discovering,
but some sort of overarching theme.
- Ooh, okay. I've heard that this kind
of stuff could run in the family genes.
So I don't know if that's true,
but it's, it's the saying, um, my mom, uh, does, uh,
fortune readings, which is, here's a psychic, uh, doing she,
but she does it with coffee . Are you familiar?
- That's so cool. Yeah. She reads the coffee ground. Yes,
- She does.
And she's really good .
So, and I grew up with that.
So I've seen some really like things that are,
could be concerned out there.
Okay. And I'm, and for me, I'm very much a, a practical
and that, so I become really skeptical of things
unless if it's like you prove it to me, which is silly.
I've learned that in the long run.
I've always had this, um, I guess you could say, ability
or something where I can pick up on other people.
And it's to the point where it was too much as a kid,
and I didn't want to, that was a whole nother thing
that was added on top of my own thing.
Because if you can't deal with your own space,
and then you get other people's space in you,
then you just, you just lose it.
You can't deal with it.
So, and I, and I didn't wanna have anything to do with it,
because I've seen her go into spaces
where sometimes she didn't come out.
She would pass out. It would kind of take over.
So it kind of scared me.
So when I started cleaning up,
then these things started becoming more,
and I thought, oh my God, what is going on?
So I talked to a, uh, friend of ours,
and she's a psychic too,
and she was telling me, um, she, she,
she taught me the difference of, uh, how to hone it
and how to notice what's yours, like my own thoughts
and feelings and what's another,
and she also told me, uh, you need to start doing, uh,
readings for people.
And I said, I am not gonna do that.
You know, I fought at tooth and nail.
I'm like, there's no way I'm gonna do that.
So then my husband,
he's encouraging, he's like, you should do it.
You should do it. You should do it.
So then I picked someone that I knew well,
that if it didn't go well
and it's, you know, kind of just out there, then it's okay.
It's not a big deal. Right.
So I did it, and I, and I kid you not Susan, I went there.
I, I have my, uh, I do terres read with Terrell reading.
So I had all my stuff together, and I went and sat down
and the kid was sitting in front of me,
and I started laying things out.
Like, I've done this before.
It was the strangest thing in the world.
And I'm, it's like, I'm watching it in
third person, it's happening.
I'm like, how are you? Like, you don't even,
what are you doing right now?
How do you know what you're doing type of a thing.
So, and then I did it, uh, for this kid.
And when I say kid, he was 24 years old.
He was an, but I, but I did this session for him,
and the way it went into it,
because I don't just do like a reading, I, what I do is,
for example, if he's trying to get to something,
but he doesn't know how, like he has a problem inside.
Um, and he could be consciously not aware of it either.
So then I went in and I find what it is,
and then I take him , uh,
in this experiential meditative state to find
what the issue is and where it happened.
So it's kind of like a soul retrieval. Hmm.
Things that I've been, um, that, that I've experienced
and done the cleanup work on myself.
And so it took this whole turn
and afterwards he came out, it was such a buzz
of, I don't even know how to explain it.
The energy was so, uh, vibrant and full.
I was buzzed from it.
And he was sitting there looking at me,
and I was looking at him.
We're both going, what in the world just happened right now?
. And that's how it went down.
So, so then I said, okay,
well maybe I'm supposed to do this.
So then, so then I started doing it
because then he told me, he was like, well,
I wanna book sessions with you.
And I said, you want to do what ? I said, okay.
And this is a reason,
and the main reason why I I continued to do it was
because I saw the, um, what do you call it?
The, the practical results
that the people I work with were getting.
And I thought, what, it's not,
it's not up to me not to do it.
I have to do it because, and I get,
and interestingly enough,
and not, I get the individuals that have experienced
traumatic, traumatic traumas in their life.
And I help 'em, I guide them through with that process
to find what's going on
and, uh, uh, release themself from that experience one,
and get the learnings of what it was so they can,
they too can set themselves free.
So I couldn't, and I, until this day, it,
it amazes myself every time.
Yeah. 'cause you know, it is, it's not even you doing it,
it's whatever that's coming through you.
Yeah. That's doing conduit. Yeah. Yes, yes. You're
- A conduit.
- Yeah. That's the beautiful thing.
So if you clean up your body and you clean up your emotions
and you know, take out all the stimulants,
these things are there
and you become a much more clear conduit
for like you said. Yeah. Yeah.
- I love that. Tell people how they might find you.
- Oh, well, you could go to harmonic wealth global.com
and you could, um,
and you could find us all over social media too,
so Yeah. Yeah.
- I'll put all the links on.
Hey, human podcast link page too. Yeah.
- Perfect. Yeah, - Thank you so much.
It was really, it was lovely to meet you
and to hear your story, and I'm just happy
that you are in a space that's so
healing now. It's great. Yeah.
- Thank you, Susan. I appreciate you having me. Yeah, yeah.
Thanks for listening,
- . Have a great day.
- Thank you. You as well.
- Thanks for listening everybody. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Rate and review. Hey, human podcast on iTunes, Spotify,
wherever you get your podcasts.
Thanks for listening. Bye.