1 00:00:08,185 --> 00:00:08,725 - Hey, humans. 2 00:00:08,935 --> 00:00:11,325 How's it going? Susan, Ruth here. Thanks. 3 00:00:11,325 --> 00:00:14,485 Listening to another episode of Hey Human Podcast. 4 00:00:16,195 --> 00:00:18,485 This is episode 395, 5 00:00:19,345 --> 00:00:21,445 and my guest is Gary m Bettman. 6 00:00:21,915 --> 00:00:24,885 Gary tells a story of his father-in-Law, who was a guard 7 00:00:24,885 --> 00:00:26,525 during the Nuremberg trials 8 00:00:27,225 --> 00:00:30,085 and had a unique interaction with those on trial. 9 00:00:31,355 --> 00:00:33,525 Gary tells this wild story 10 00:00:33,905 --> 00:00:36,925 and, uh, the artifact that comes from that story. 11 00:00:36,995 --> 00:00:38,605 It's really interesting, a one 12 00:00:38,605 --> 00:00:40,005 of a kind artifact, I should say. 13 00:00:40,305 --> 00:00:43,325 Gary's a film and TV producer and executive producer. 14 00:00:43,465 --> 00:00:47,005 His hit show northbound is currently on Zika d 15 00:00:47,945 --> 00:00:51,445 and some of his previous productions include the Omega Code 16 00:00:51,745 --> 00:00:55,005 Wax work and the film, A Gun, a car, a Blonde. 17 00:00:56,035 --> 00:00:59,085 He's the COO of marketing advertising company, 18 00:00:59,305 --> 00:01:02,645 the Miller Group, and has spent the last few decades 19 00:01:02,905 --> 00:01:04,805 as a democratic political consultant. 20 00:01:05,465 --> 00:01:06,645 Really interesting guy, 21 00:01:07,105 --> 00:01:09,685 and I met him through my dear friend John Penny. 22 00:01:10,385 --> 00:01:12,925 And, uh, Gary was kind enough to 23 00:01:13,785 --> 00:01:15,885 say yes when I asked him to be on the show. 24 00:01:16,225 --> 00:01:17,685 And in a couple weeks, 25 00:01:18,305 --> 00:01:20,925 his father is also going to be on the show. 26 00:01:21,625 --> 00:01:24,325 Really fascinating story there too, with his father. 27 00:01:25,225 --> 00:01:28,805 So, all right, check out, hey, human podcast.com for links. 28 00:01:28,805 --> 00:01:30,085 And to learn more about my guests 29 00:01:30,145 --> 00:01:32,765 and the show, check out Susan ruth.com 30 00:01:32,785 --> 00:01:34,045 to learn more about me 31 00:01:34,065 --> 00:01:37,405 and my other artistic endeavors, follow Susan Ruth 32 00:01:37,665 --> 00:01:39,645 and hey, human podcast on social media, 33 00:01:40,305 --> 00:01:43,925 and find my music on Spotify, apple music, Amazon music, 34 00:01:44,325 --> 00:01:45,965 wherever you get your music rate. 35 00:01:46,345 --> 00:01:47,765 Review and subscribe to. 36 00:01:47,765 --> 00:01:49,565 Hey, human podcast on iTunes 37 00:01:49,565 --> 00:01:52,205 or wherever you get your podcasts, including iHeart. 38 00:01:52,205 --> 00:01:55,125 It's back up on iHeart. And thank you for listening. 39 00:01:55,345 --> 00:01:57,685 Be well, be kind, be love, 40 00:01:58,305 --> 00:02:00,125 and go see the movie Zone of Interest. 41 00:02:00,735 --> 00:02:04,245 Don't get paid to say that, but holy moly. Just saw it. 42 00:02:04,585 --> 00:02:06,445 And it is an incredible film. 43 00:02:06,925 --> 00:02:08,885 Breathtaking, actually, uh, 44 00:02:09,305 --> 00:02:10,885 sat there stunned at the end of it. 45 00:02:11,265 --> 00:02:12,845 Really definitely a theater movie. 46 00:02:13,185 --> 00:02:15,085 So go, go see it if you haven't already. 47 00:02:15,905 --> 00:02:18,965 All right, uh, let's get into this. Here we go. 48 00:02:20,525 --> 00:02:22,335 Gary Batman, welcome to Hey, human. 49 00:02:23,125 --> 00:02:25,375 - Well, thank you. Glad to be here. It's 50 00:02:25,375 --> 00:02:26,375 - Nice to see you. 51 00:02:26,765 --> 00:02:28,255 - It's always good to see you again too. 52 00:02:29,195 --> 00:02:30,855 - We, uh, introduced 53 00:02:30,995 --> 00:02:33,975 by our mutual friend John, so thank you John 54 00:02:34,715 --> 00:02:38,415 - John's great and and a good friend indeed for both of us. 55 00:02:38,805 --> 00:02:40,575 - Yeah, y'all are neighbors, aren't you? 56 00:02:40,995 --> 00:02:43,215 - We are almost, I would say, 57 00:02:43,405 --> 00:02:45,055 less than a minute walking distance. 58 00:02:45,195 --> 00:02:46,775 That's nice. A few homes away. 59 00:02:46,885 --> 00:02:49,615 John, John and Kathy are terrific people. 60 00:02:49,885 --> 00:02:51,135 - They really are. They're lovely. 61 00:02:51,545 --> 00:02:54,655 Let's get into, today we're gonna 62 00:02:54,655 --> 00:02:56,175 cover a couple different things. 63 00:02:56,435 --> 00:02:59,765 You have an extraordinary story about your father-in-Law, 64 00:03:00,665 --> 00:03:02,965 and after we're done talking about that, 65 00:03:03,095 --> 00:03:04,165 we're gonna talk about you 66 00:03:04,275 --> 00:03:07,485 because your life is also fascinating 67 00:03:07,785 --> 00:03:12,205 and has an arc that I am absolutely wanna hear about. 68 00:03:12,265 --> 00:03:15,485 So, let's start with your father-in-Law, a little backstory, 69 00:03:15,625 --> 00:03:18,605 and then getting into what we're here to talk about. 70 00:03:19,145 --> 00:03:22,245 - My father-in-Law, his name was Danny Miller, 71 00:03:22,385 --> 00:03:25,695 and he was living with his daughter, 72 00:03:25,755 --> 00:03:27,415 and he lived in Cleveland at the time. 73 00:03:27,475 --> 00:03:30,895 And we made a, an initial visit in the early nineties 74 00:03:31,395 --> 00:03:32,495 to meet the family. 75 00:03:33,115 --> 00:03:35,775 He, I mean, after all the meals 76 00:03:35,995 --> 00:03:38,415 and conversation, he heard 77 00:03:38,415 --> 00:03:41,455 that I was very interested in history, political history, 78 00:03:41,735 --> 00:03:43,095 military history overall. 79 00:03:43,675 --> 00:03:46,295 And he goes to a, a drawer 80 00:03:46,515 --> 00:03:49,215 and pulls out this book, 81 00:03:49,315 --> 00:03:51,215 and he said, I think this would be of interest to you. 82 00:03:51,755 --> 00:03:55,735 And I mean, Renee was there, my wife, my not my wife, 83 00:03:55,735 --> 00:03:57,015 then my girlfriend at the time. 84 00:03:57,595 --> 00:03:59,935 And she didn't even remember this was in the house. 85 00:04:00,035 --> 00:04:03,095 And what this book is, is just fascinating. 86 00:04:03,155 --> 00:04:07,975 So the book was in a brown bag, paper bag, 87 00:04:08,515 --> 00:04:09,855 and inside. 88 00:04:10,315 --> 00:04:13,095 So a little backstory for, for my father-in-Law, 89 00:04:13,095 --> 00:04:15,255 who's been deceased for a number of years, 90 00:04:15,355 --> 00:04:18,255 but right out of high school as an 18-year-old. 91 00:04:18,525 --> 00:04:21,455 This was World War ii, 1944. 92 00:04:22,115 --> 00:04:23,775 And he gets drafted. 93 00:04:23,855 --> 00:04:24,935 I mean, he goes right in 94 00:04:24,935 --> 00:04:27,215 after high school, does his basic training, 95 00:04:27,795 --> 00:04:29,815 and goes overseas. 96 00:04:30,335 --> 00:04:32,535 I mean, he went to the, obviously the European Theater, 97 00:04:33,155 --> 00:04:37,855 and he was very, very, how many more varies, uh, 98 00:04:38,145 --> 00:04:42,145 quiet about the campaigns that he saw. 99 00:04:42,305 --> 00:04:44,505 I don't know if he caught the tail end of the Battle 100 00:04:44,525 --> 00:04:47,265 of the Bulge or more in early 45. 101 00:04:47,925 --> 00:04:51,385 He wouldn't talk about much of anything, really, truly. 102 00:04:52,285 --> 00:04:56,495 But afterwards, the war ends, you know, may, 103 00:04:57,275 --> 00:05:01,775 and he still has his tour of duty, um, to fulfill. 104 00:05:02,195 --> 00:05:06,415 And he gets assigned to the Nuremberg Trials. 105 00:05:06,795 --> 00:05:10,535 Now, he was a private, so, I mean, I, if you know that in, 106 00:05:10,635 --> 00:05:13,855 was it 1935, the Nuremberg Laws 107 00:05:14,285 --> 00:05:15,655 that the Nazis passed, 108 00:05:16,425 --> 00:05:19,935 which were extremely onerous, uh, for Jews. 109 00:05:20,275 --> 00:05:23,935 And one of the reasons that Nuremberg was selected 110 00:05:24,475 --> 00:05:26,855 for the famous Nuremberg Trials was 111 00:05:26,855 --> 00:05:31,735 because it tied in to Nuremberg, the Nuremberg Laws. 112 00:05:31,755 --> 00:05:33,335 It was sort of like going full circle 113 00:05:33,795 --> 00:05:35,575 to have these Nazis tried, 114 00:05:36,435 --> 00:05:38,845 because the Nuremberg laws were, were passed there. 115 00:05:38,985 --> 00:05:40,765 And I guess it, you know, the city, 116 00:05:40,875 --> 00:05:42,925 like most German cities were in shambles, 117 00:05:42,985 --> 00:05:46,575 but there was enough operable to have 118 00:05:47,675 --> 00:05:50,895 the British, the Americans, the French, all there to, 119 00:05:51,245 --> 00:05:53,935 with their lawyers, to conduct what was gonna be a very, 120 00:05:54,285 --> 00:05:55,855 very long, extensive trial. 121 00:05:56,475 --> 00:05:59,565 So my father-in-law, ends up 122 00:06:00,515 --> 00:06:01,785 being assigned. 123 00:06:01,805 --> 00:06:04,185 And here's where we get deeper into the story. 124 00:06:05,005 --> 00:06:07,265 If you've seen pictures of Nuremberg, which people 125 00:06:07,265 --> 00:06:10,065 who know history or World War II history know that, 126 00:06:10,085 --> 00:06:13,005 you see mostly the courtroom. 127 00:06:13,465 --> 00:06:14,565 And inside the courtroom, 128 00:06:15,145 --> 00:06:18,085 all the Nazi defendants were seated mostly 129 00:06:18,195 --> 00:06:21,685 with their headphones on for the translation, 130 00:06:21,745 --> 00:06:24,925 but some of them actually spoke a fair amount of English. 131 00:06:25,385 --> 00:06:26,925 Um, and you see the judges, 132 00:06:27,105 --> 00:06:28,885 and you see the lawyers and all that. 133 00:06:28,885 --> 00:06:32,245 And then on the back row, there were the white helmeted 134 00:06:32,945 --> 00:06:35,365 mps all spiffy looking with their mps. 135 00:06:35,795 --> 00:06:39,085 That was not Danny, he was not an mp. 136 00:06:39,145 --> 00:06:43,045 He was not, he was just a private, you know, the basic, 137 00:06:43,155 --> 00:06:45,445 what we, sometimes they call the grunt, you know, 138 00:06:45,465 --> 00:06:47,125 that's more of Vietnam term, I think. 139 00:06:47,505 --> 00:06:51,315 But his job as he told it, now, it's interesting 140 00:06:51,315 --> 00:06:54,435 because he would talk a lot about this part as quiet 141 00:06:54,615 --> 00:06:59,205 as he was about the military in battle exploits. 142 00:06:59,585 --> 00:07:01,685 That's how flip that around. 143 00:07:01,685 --> 00:07:05,085 And that's how talkative he was about this. 144 00:07:05,905 --> 00:07:07,565 So he would escort 145 00:07:09,345 --> 00:07:11,185 whatever particular Nazi he was assigned 146 00:07:11,185 --> 00:07:15,425 to from their jail cell through the bowels of the building 147 00:07:16,205 --> 00:07:19,985 to the front door of the courtroom, 148 00:07:20,525 --> 00:07:21,705 the very big courtroom. 149 00:07:21,765 --> 00:07:25,745 And then from that point, the mps, which I always look, 150 00:07:25,905 --> 00:07:27,225 'cause you can always look at a picture, you see 151 00:07:27,225 --> 00:07:28,265 they have those white helmets. 152 00:07:28,265 --> 00:07:30,865 It's kind of cool looking. They would take it from there. 153 00:07:31,445 --> 00:07:34,665 So Danny was never in the courtroom, per se, 154 00:07:35,685 --> 00:07:39,145 but somehow, and this is just amazing, 155 00:07:39,425 --> 00:07:42,705 'cause as I got to know him, of course, later in his life, 156 00:07:43,485 --> 00:07:46,495 he was kind of a quiet guy. 157 00:07:46,635 --> 00:07:47,855 He wasn't verbose 158 00:07:47,915 --> 00:07:51,975 or outspoken, timid in some ways, not one to get 159 00:07:53,055 --> 00:07:55,055 involved, or certainly not a 160 00:07:55,175 --> 00:07:56,535 rabble-rouser, none of these things. 161 00:07:56,955 --> 00:08:00,295 But at this point, as an 18, at this point, 162 00:08:00,615 --> 00:08:05,595 I guess a 19-year-old private in the Army, he decided 163 00:08:05,595 --> 00:08:07,515 to do something, which to my research, 164 00:08:08,375 --> 00:08:10,235 and I've done a bit of research on, this 165 00:08:10,975 --> 00:08:13,845 has not been done when no one did it. 166 00:08:13,905 --> 00:08:18,085 So in the United States Army privately printed a book, 167 00:08:18,725 --> 00:08:22,085 a nice sized book, hardcover in Nuremberg, uh, 168 00:08:22,135 --> 00:08:23,285 about the proceedings. 169 00:08:23,635 --> 00:08:28,325 It's about the size, uh, of a small coffee table book, 170 00:08:28,785 --> 00:08:30,965 uh, with pictures of Nuremberg, 171 00:08:31,305 --> 00:08:34,645 but really all about the proceedings, the defendants, 172 00:08:34,645 --> 00:08:36,565 the judges, and it's a nicely printed book. 173 00:08:37,425 --> 00:08:39,765 So he gets one of these books, 174 00:08:41,015 --> 00:08:43,915 and he basically smuggles it in, 175 00:08:45,285 --> 00:08:48,815 because you, you're, the idea is you can't get too friendly 176 00:08:48,845 --> 00:08:49,935 with any Nazi. 177 00:08:50,525 --> 00:08:51,855 They didn't want you to, 178 00:08:51,855 --> 00:08:53,495 because there was always the concern. 179 00:08:53,675 --> 00:08:56,325 If you know, what ended up with Herman Goring at the end, 180 00:08:56,785 --> 00:09:00,605 that's a well-documented story that someone, the, the day 181 00:09:00,705 --> 00:09:04,885 before his execution, some American 182 00:09:05,795 --> 00:09:08,965 soldier smuggled in the cyanide, or a capsule. 183 00:09:09,345 --> 00:09:12,925 So Herman Goring could die in his pajamas, 184 00:09:12,945 --> 00:09:14,605 in his sleep at his own time, 185 00:09:14,865 --> 00:09:16,685 and not with a noose around his neck. 186 00:09:17,285 --> 00:09:20,405 I think ultimately they figured out it was, uh, an officer 187 00:09:20,545 --> 00:09:22,805 or someone who was sympathetic, obviously, 188 00:09:23,585 --> 00:09:26,045 but they didn't want any American soldier 189 00:09:26,105 --> 00:09:28,045 to get too friendly with any of the Nazis. 190 00:09:28,385 --> 00:09:31,285 So as Danny tells the story, the 191 00:09:32,625 --> 00:09:36,005 the soldiers would, who were escorting the Nazi from the 192 00:09:36,005 --> 00:09:39,885 jail cell to the courtroom door, they would be rotated. 193 00:09:40,545 --> 00:09:42,645 And so you, you would like, for a week, 194 00:09:42,665 --> 00:09:44,005 you would have Herman Goring, 195 00:09:44,005 --> 00:09:45,085 and then you would go to Spear, 196 00:09:45,145 --> 00:09:46,645 and then you would go to nus, 197 00:09:46,645 --> 00:09:48,605 and then you would go so that you didn't bond 198 00:09:48,825 --> 00:09:50,645 any that deeply. 199 00:09:51,665 --> 00:09:55,965 So what I'm saying with this book, he decides, 200 00:09:56,145 --> 00:09:58,405 and this is just, I don't know where this comes from, 201 00:09:58,745 --> 00:10:00,885 he decides to smuggle in this book, 202 00:10:01,395 --> 00:10:04,965 because you can't just walk in with a book if you're a gi, 203 00:10:05,065 --> 00:10:09,965 you have to hide it under your uniform, your coat, whatever. 204 00:10:10,795 --> 00:10:12,735 And he wants to get the autographs 205 00:10:12,955 --> 00:10:15,935 of every single Nazi defendant. 206 00:10:16,355 --> 00:10:18,055 Now, mind you, Danny is Jewish 207 00:10:18,795 --> 00:10:23,415 and comes from a moderately religious Jewish household, 208 00:10:24,515 --> 00:10:27,275 I believe from what he said, that he started 209 00:10:27,505 --> 00:10:31,955 with Herman Goring because he was figuratively 210 00:10:31,955 --> 00:10:33,595 and literally the big man in the room. 211 00:10:34,095 --> 00:10:35,315 So if Herman signs, 212 00:10:36,545 --> 00:10:39,955 then he figures everyone else can sign, will sign. 213 00:10:40,775 --> 00:10:42,715 And as you see, 214 00:10:42,895 --> 00:10:44,555 and Herman signed, obviously, 215 00:10:44,555 --> 00:10:45,875 that's why we're one reason we're talking. 216 00:10:46,695 --> 00:10:48,355 Um, and Herman signed 217 00:10:49,055 --> 00:10:53,155 in a very Jan John Hancock sort of a way with a flourish. 218 00:10:53,295 --> 00:10:56,195 And it's big and top of the page, you know. 219 00:10:56,895 --> 00:10:59,435 And then in the subsequent weeks 220 00:10:59,815 --> 00:11:03,955 and weeks, Danny went to each Nazi, 221 00:11:04,585 --> 00:11:09,035 most of them signed on the page below Goring, uh, 222 00:11:09,315 --> 00:11:13,515 a couple or a few more signed on an adjacent page. 223 00:11:14,255 --> 00:11:18,715 But his goal was to get every single Nazi. 224 00:11:19,175 --> 00:11:24,035 And I, I'm pretty sure that was at Spear who spoke English. 225 00:11:24,535 --> 00:11:27,735 And he, he said that he told them that he was Jewish, 226 00:11:27,835 --> 00:11:29,375 and they just wanted to sign the book. 227 00:11:30,315 --> 00:11:32,095 Why did they wanna sign it? Who knows? 228 00:11:32,535 --> 00:11:35,255 I mean, was it, did most of them think 229 00:11:36,145 --> 00:11:37,935 death was imminent or whatever? 230 00:11:37,935 --> 00:11:41,865 And they were just, this was something 231 00:11:42,245 --> 00:11:45,345 to immortalize them by signing this book, 232 00:11:45,645 --> 00:11:47,425 who can say probably that? 233 00:11:47,735 --> 00:11:48,745 Yeah, I, I don't know. 234 00:11:49,005 --> 00:11:51,385 But eventually they did it, Danny 235 00:11:51,605 --> 00:11:54,845 and he, not only did he get that very nice book, 236 00:11:55,105 --> 00:11:59,645 but there was also, uh, pamphlets that the, the trial 237 00:11:59,645 --> 00:12:01,325 of proceedings had. 238 00:12:01,345 --> 00:12:02,925 And, and he kept, 239 00:12:03,345 --> 00:12:06,365 and it's in remarkably almost perfect condition, 240 00:12:06,795 --> 00:12:09,765 this pamphlet from 1945. So 241 00:12:09,765 --> 00:12:10,885 - They knew he was Jewish. 242 00:12:11,185 --> 00:12:13,845 Yes. And they still did it. That's pretty 243 00:12:14,045 --> 00:12:15,045 - Interesting. 244 00:12:15,045 --> 00:12:17,045 Absolutely. Absolutely. They, they all did it. 245 00:12:17,545 --> 00:12:21,165 And he comes home from the war 246 00:12:21,945 --> 00:12:24,605 and goes on with his life, whatever, 247 00:12:24,625 --> 00:12:28,565 and who knows how the war, the battle part 248 00:12:28,565 --> 00:12:29,685 of the war scarred him. 249 00:12:29,945 --> 00:12:33,285 If you guys don't talk, you never know. You never know. 250 00:12:34,265 --> 00:12:37,685 And that was it. And then we segue from the mid forties 251 00:12:38,505 --> 00:12:40,485 to the early nineties, 252 00:12:40,905 --> 00:12:44,405 and this book in a brown paper bag comes out 253 00:12:44,705 --> 00:12:47,765 and it's like, oh my God, this is amazing. 254 00:12:47,945 --> 00:12:50,405 And at one point, when he was showing it to me, 255 00:12:50,665 --> 00:12:52,205 he started to actually touch. 256 00:12:52,745 --> 00:12:56,565 And I go, no, Danny, don't, don't touch the ink that, 257 00:12:56,785 --> 00:12:58,645 you know, because you don't want to just 258 00:12:58,745 --> 00:13:00,285 for a preservation sake. 259 00:13:01,265 --> 00:13:03,725 But the, the signatures hadn't faded 260 00:13:04,325 --> 00:13:06,735 because they hadn't been in the sunlight 261 00:13:06,755 --> 00:13:08,575 and they hadn't seen anything. 262 00:13:08,575 --> 00:13:10,335 They were in a bag for decades. 263 00:13:11,275 --> 00:13:15,815 So, you know, that started some research from my end 264 00:13:15,875 --> 00:13:19,525 to see, to see if anything like that existed 265 00:13:19,705 --> 00:13:22,125 and what it might be worth. 266 00:13:22,905 --> 00:13:26,845 And I called around a bunch of people as 267 00:13:27,465 --> 00:13:28,725 I'm a book collector. 268 00:13:28,985 --> 00:13:30,285 Um, books are my passion. 269 00:13:30,465 --> 00:13:31,765 So I know some 270 00:13:31,765 --> 00:13:34,405 of these antiquarian book dealers, coast to coast. 271 00:13:35,245 --> 00:13:38,565 I called them, um, guys who deal in, 272 00:13:38,665 --> 00:13:40,125 uh, military collections. 273 00:13:40,185 --> 00:13:42,005 And, uh, through another friend of mine 274 00:13:42,465 --> 00:13:43,805 who connected me with. 275 00:13:43,905 --> 00:13:45,725 So I made a bunch of calls to see 276 00:13:46,735 --> 00:13:48,075 how unique this really was. 277 00:13:48,455 --> 00:13:52,795 And there, there were a couple of other guys who got 278 00:13:53,635 --> 00:13:54,795 Goring's Autograph. 279 00:13:54,895 --> 00:13:58,315 So you can still find that around. 280 00:13:58,975 --> 00:14:03,275 And a few of the other higher profile Nazis during, 281 00:14:03,345 --> 00:14:04,755 it's like I mentioned spe, 282 00:14:05,615 --> 00:14:10,135 but there was no Anywhere case 283 00:14:10,505 --> 00:14:13,935 where this privately printed book by the United States 284 00:14:14,455 --> 00:14:16,535 military had all the autographs. 285 00:14:16,635 --> 00:14:19,255 It seems like a truly one of a kind. 286 00:14:20,595 --> 00:14:24,075 Now, um, I won't get into numbers, 287 00:14:24,255 --> 00:14:26,715 but assessing value was challenging 288 00:14:27,145 --> 00:14:30,675 because like Sotheby's, Christie's, 289 00:14:31,505 --> 00:14:32,795 they don't handle anything 290 00:14:32,795 --> 00:14:34,275 that has anything to do with Nazis. 291 00:14:34,695 --> 00:14:37,075 So they were not even interested in seeing it, 292 00:14:37,225 --> 00:14:39,555 talking about it the minute I said what it was. 293 00:14:39,555 --> 00:14:42,955 They say, thank you, goodbye. But there were a couple 294 00:14:42,975 --> 00:14:46,875 of private dealers back east, uh, one in particular, 295 00:14:47,075 --> 00:14:51,175 a Jewish guy in Connecticut who was enthralled with it. 296 00:14:51,175 --> 00:14:53,255 He goes, oh my God, this is amazing. 297 00:14:53,845 --> 00:14:55,775 I've never heard of this book, 298 00:14:56,495 --> 00:14:57,615 anything like this book before. 299 00:14:58,235 --> 00:14:59,615 And so I, I talked to him, 300 00:14:59,715 --> 00:15:00,775 but I mean, 301 00:15:00,775 --> 00:15:04,415 the book right now sits in a bank safe deposit box 302 00:15:05,045 --> 00:15:06,095 down in Culver City. 303 00:15:06,195 --> 00:15:10,015 So it's, it's, you know, it's, it couldn't be more secure 304 00:15:10,715 --> 00:15:14,915 if we tried, and we're not, it's not, it's not my father. 305 00:15:15,015 --> 00:15:16,355 So when Renee's dad 306 00:15:16,355 --> 00:15:18,315 and we're not selling their other siblings, 307 00:15:18,495 --> 00:15:22,975 so there was a discussion about possibly, uh, 308 00:15:22,975 --> 00:15:24,895 putting on maybe like a permanent loan 309 00:15:25,035 --> 00:15:26,735 to the Simon Ental Center, 310 00:15:27,775 --> 00:15:31,755 to the Holocaust Museum in Washington dc which is an 311 00:15:31,785 --> 00:15:32,955 amazing museum. 312 00:15:33,775 --> 00:15:36,875 Uh, I urge everyone, if they're in DC to go there, 313 00:15:37,385 --> 00:15:40,915 there's even another museum smaller in LA called the Museum 314 00:15:40,915 --> 00:15:43,745 of the Holocaust, near the Grove. 315 00:15:43,805 --> 00:15:45,705 Do you know that one? Mm-Hmm, . Yeah. 316 00:15:45,725 --> 00:15:48,825 So that, you know, there, there are people 317 00:15:48,925 --> 00:15:52,425 who probably in museums who would probably be interested in 318 00:15:53,295 --> 00:15:55,025 this as a display item, 319 00:15:55,205 --> 00:15:58,145 as a discussion coming from a, a Jewish gi. 320 00:15:59,045 --> 00:16:01,585 Um, but right now it, it's, these are all discussions. 321 00:16:01,745 --> 00:16:03,265 'cause it's, uh, you know, 322 00:16:03,585 --> 00:16:05,065 siblings have to agree on what to do. 323 00:16:05,085 --> 00:16:06,705 And you know, how, how that can go. 324 00:16:07,765 --> 00:16:09,185 - Is it just, is it priceless? 325 00:16:09,845 --> 00:16:12,365 - No, it's not. 326 00:16:13,085 --> 00:16:15,405 I mean, it's just, it, it has value. 327 00:16:15,505 --> 00:16:20,245 But I think, I think what I would prefer is 328 00:16:20,245 --> 00:16:24,765 that in, in Danny's name, it goes on display at one 329 00:16:24,765 --> 00:16:26,205 of those museums I mentioned, 330 00:16:26,205 --> 00:16:28,005 because that's a tribute to Danny Miller. 331 00:16:28,585 --> 00:16:32,555 And to me, that's, that has more oomph 332 00:16:33,215 --> 00:16:37,395 and the uniqueness of it with a little backstory, you know? 333 00:16:37,735 --> 00:16:39,235 But it's not priceless. No. 334 00:16:39,455 --> 00:16:43,035 And you, you know, you have to also wonder if someone 335 00:16:43,945 --> 00:16:46,515 like this collector in Connecticut who was willing 336 00:16:46,615 --> 00:16:50,715 to purchase it, who, who wants this, 337 00:16:51,365 --> 00:16:53,155 who's gonna spend X thousands of dollars 338 00:16:53,215 --> 00:16:56,915 and want this in their home, is that, 339 00:16:57,415 --> 00:17:00,795 so isn't it better to have it at the Vth all center 340 00:17:01,215 --> 00:17:04,155 or in Washington and say, you know, 341 00:17:05,255 --> 00:17:07,115 but it's certainly unique. 342 00:17:07,215 --> 00:17:10,715 And, um, uh, so that's, you know, that's kind 343 00:17:10,715 --> 00:17:12,635 of just the most remarkable story. 344 00:17:12,695 --> 00:17:15,795 And even the book itself, he acts 345 00:17:15,795 --> 00:17:17,275 besides the pamphlet, which I mentioned, 346 00:17:17,345 --> 00:17:21,315 there's also a second copy of the book 347 00:17:21,905 --> 00:17:24,715 that he, for some reason, he, he bought two copies, one, 348 00:17:24,755 --> 00:17:27,915 I guess to keep, which is in like Immaculate Condition. 349 00:17:28,095 --> 00:17:32,275 And the one that the Nazis signed, which got a little wear 350 00:17:32,275 --> 00:17:34,755 and tear because it was being handed back and forth, 351 00:17:34,815 --> 00:17:38,195 and obviously stuck in his clothes to get there. 352 00:17:39,055 --> 00:17:42,835 But the book itself is, is a, a nice 353 00:17:43,935 --> 00:17:47,435 treat also just about the proceedings, you know, 354 00:17:47,715 --> 00:17:51,935 - I feel like that definitely deserves museum to, 355 00:17:51,995 --> 00:17:55,295 to live on in a museum for a lot of reasons. 356 00:17:55,765 --> 00:17:58,455 It's a lot for a lot of layers of reasons. Yeah. 357 00:17:58,815 --> 00:18:01,255 - I mean, they, they could do a nice display on it. 358 00:18:01,435 --> 00:18:05,815 Um, they, they would have to figure out, WI guess the page 359 00:18:05,845 --> 00:18:07,535 that is on 360 00:18:07,615 --> 00:18:10,015 with the most signatures would be the one if you opened it 361 00:18:10,015 --> 00:18:11,975 up on display, because to get to a couple 362 00:18:11,975 --> 00:18:13,655 of other signatures, you'd have to turn the page. 363 00:18:13,675 --> 00:18:16,015 So they'd have to figure out how to display it. 364 00:18:16,035 --> 00:18:18,575 But, you know, I don't know what's gonna happen. 365 00:18:18,715 --> 00:18:23,455 But it's, it's remarkable to know that my father-in-law 366 00:18:24,195 --> 00:18:28,175 had this interaction with Herman Goring, who, you know, I 367 00:18:28,695 --> 00:18:30,135 hierarchically after Hitler. 368 00:18:30,835 --> 00:18:33,055 You probably would have Bels Hemler 369 00:18:33,055 --> 00:18:36,855 and Goring as the big three right underneath Hitler. 370 00:18:37,705 --> 00:18:42,475 So, I mean, it's like, this is my relatively 371 00:18:43,885 --> 00:18:46,115 timid, but not that timid at the time. 372 00:18:46,145 --> 00:18:50,755 Father-in-law, talking to Herman Goring, who, you know, 373 00:18:51,115 --> 00:18:52,875 everyone who knows history and, and, 374 00:18:52,895 --> 00:18:55,795 and her goring not only World War II history, 375 00:18:56,175 --> 00:18:58,715 but I'm also a student of World War I history. 376 00:18:58,735 --> 00:19:02,815 And Goring was an accomplished fighter pilot, uh, 377 00:19:02,875 --> 00:19:06,175 and flew with Baron von Ovn, the Red Baron. 378 00:19:06,975 --> 00:19:09,995 And so Goring didn't just come into 379 00:19:10,565 --> 00:19:12,825 being in World War ii. 380 00:19:13,065 --> 00:19:14,785 I mean, he was already making a name 381 00:19:14,845 --> 00:19:16,385 for himself in World War I. 382 00:19:17,245 --> 00:19:22,025 He was actually the, after Von Ovn was shot down, uh, 383 00:19:22,035 --> 00:19:24,185 April 21st, 1918. 384 00:19:25,285 --> 00:19:28,585 The leader of a squadron was another pilot 385 00:19:28,845 --> 00:19:30,385 who was subsequently shot down. 386 00:19:30,385 --> 00:19:33,825 And then Goring ultimately took over the 387 00:19:34,685 --> 00:19:38,465 von Rick Tobin's squadron and finished the war. 388 00:19:39,325 --> 00:19:41,905 He was even ballsy back then. 389 00:19:41,985 --> 00:19:44,985 I mean, he painted Von Ovn, the Red Baron was known 390 00:19:44,985 --> 00:19:47,225 because he painted his plane mostly all red. 391 00:19:48,135 --> 00:19:49,755 He had different planes, uh, 392 00:19:49,855 --> 00:19:51,915 but he generally, they were almost all red 393 00:19:52,695 --> 00:19:56,595 and Goring, who was even flamboyant at the time 394 00:19:56,595 --> 00:19:57,755 with a walking stick 395 00:19:57,755 --> 00:20:02,695 and all that, he painted his plain all white, which was, 396 00:20:02,755 --> 00:20:04,295 you know, a different sort of approach. 397 00:20:04,435 --> 00:20:09,295 So this is a man, uh, from two world wars of significant 398 00:20:09,905 --> 00:20:11,015 historical status. 399 00:20:11,675 --> 00:20:13,695 And my father-in-Law was like chatting with him. 400 00:20:13,715 --> 00:20:18,215 So, I mean, it's like, it's crazy. It's amazing. So I'm 401 00:20:18,215 --> 00:20:22,295 - Just so curious to think about what their, take 402 00:20:22,905 --> 00:20:27,335 these Nazis take on this young Jewish private 403 00:20:27,935 --> 00:20:29,055 roaming the halls trying 404 00:20:29,055 --> 00:20:32,655 to get signatures like a school school book, like an annual. 405 00:20:33,245 --> 00:20:35,455 - Exactly. I mean, it had that feel to it. Like, 406 00:20:35,765 --> 00:20:37,295 - Have a nice summer, see you in 407 00:20:37,415 --> 00:20:38,615 hell, kinda thing, right? Yeah, 408 00:20:39,045 --> 00:20:40,045 - Yeah. 409 00:20:40,045 --> 00:20:40,855 What we, we did when we were kids 410 00:20:40,855 --> 00:20:42,135 getting the, the autographs. 411 00:20:42,315 --> 00:20:44,535 And so, and they were just autographs. 412 00:20:44,655 --> 00:20:46,895 I mean, one person asked me, did anyone 413 00:20:47,615 --> 00:20:49,405 write a salutation or anything? 414 00:20:49,665 --> 00:20:52,405 No, no, no, no. It wasn't that, it was just sign your name 415 00:20:53,695 --> 00:20:55,035 and thank you very much. 416 00:20:57,085 --> 00:20:58,605 Fascinating. Yeah. So, 417 00:20:58,665 --> 00:21:01,125 and you know, like I said, I, I, there's, uh, 418 00:21:01,275 --> 00:21:02,525 I've printed out this list. 419 00:21:02,525 --> 00:21:05,885 There's Kle was in there on Ribbon Trop. 420 00:21:06,525 --> 00:21:10,125 I mean, people who know Hess Duritz, Von Papin, 421 00:21:10,695 --> 00:21:14,165 these are all guys, if you look into their sorted, clearly, 422 00:21:14,165 --> 00:21:16,245 their sorted past were 423 00:21:17,775 --> 00:21:20,385 important enough in the, the Nazi structure 424 00:21:20,385 --> 00:21:24,145 of the killing apparatus to be on trial at Nuremberg. 425 00:21:24,425 --> 00:21:28,635 I mean, let's, and, and, uh, they were not all executed. 426 00:21:29,735 --> 00:21:32,305 Some were given different levels of sentences. 427 00:21:32,335 --> 00:21:34,855 They were not all executed. 428 00:21:35,765 --> 00:21:40,185 Many were, but not all it made, it made me wanna go back, 429 00:21:40,185 --> 00:21:42,355 which I did, and watch 430 00:21:44,235 --> 00:21:45,485 film, you know, thing. 431 00:21:45,775 --> 00:21:47,725 There was the, I think it was Stanley Kramer, 432 00:21:47,745 --> 00:21:49,845 I'm not sure the famous movie that came out 433 00:21:50,505 --> 00:21:54,325 in the early sixties about Nuremberg, big feature film. 434 00:21:55,545 --> 00:21:59,245 But I went just more for the historical record, you know, 435 00:21:59,245 --> 00:22:01,795 on YouTube and stuff, and just looked at, 436 00:22:01,855 --> 00:22:05,155 um, the proceedings. 437 00:22:05,175 --> 00:22:07,835 And, uh, and they, they went on for a very long time. 438 00:22:09,365 --> 00:22:12,425 So that's a story about the Nuremberg book, and that's 439 00:22:13,645 --> 00:22:16,825 - So much, it's, it's a wild ride, that one. Yeah, 440 00:22:16,965 --> 00:22:17,965 - No, it really is. 441 00:22:17,965 --> 00:22:20,785 And, and the, the rare occasion, I take it out of the, 442 00:22:20,885 --> 00:22:22,385 the bank security box 443 00:22:22,405 --> 00:22:25,785 and show it to people, everyone is like, you know, 444 00:22:26,285 --> 00:22:28,505 living history, you know, 445 00:22:28,765 --> 00:22:31,105 not unlike when we first met at Ross's house, 446 00:22:31,105 --> 00:22:33,505 where we looking at some of his artifacts, 447 00:22:33,505 --> 00:22:35,025 which are Yeah, amazing. 448 00:22:35,305 --> 00:22:37,945 I mean, it's beyond what he has 449 00:22:38,005 --> 00:22:39,385 as a collection for the ages. 450 00:22:39,765 --> 00:22:44,545 But this particular book, it, it's, um, it's a real link to 451 00:22:45,665 --> 00:22:49,785 a generation, a part of history that, I mean, most 452 00:22:49,785 --> 00:22:51,865 of these guys, Danny, would be 453 00:22:53,075 --> 00:22:57,035 98 now or something like that, if he were alive. 454 00:22:57,885 --> 00:23:02,125 And yet, sadly, when we're talking about Nazis 455 00:23:02,125 --> 00:23:04,045 and stuff like that, it's not gone. 456 00:23:04,565 --> 00:23:06,125 I mean, these guys are long gone, 457 00:23:06,185 --> 00:23:08,915 but what they created, it's 458 00:23:08,945 --> 00:23:10,915 with us every day, sadly, isn't it? 459 00:23:11,335 --> 00:23:14,275 - It really is. I'm really looking forward to, in, 460 00:23:14,335 --> 00:23:16,755 in a future episode, I'll be interviewing your dad, 461 00:23:17,735 --> 00:23:20,435 and that's gonna be a really incredible conversation. 462 00:23:20,675 --> 00:23:23,635 I feel like, as someone who lived the experience 463 00:23:23,695 --> 00:23:24,755 of Nazi Germany. 464 00:23:25,545 --> 00:23:26,955 - Yeah, my dad had it, 465 00:23:26,955 --> 00:23:29,435 and we'll be talking to him in a couple weeks, I guess. 466 00:23:29,495 --> 00:23:32,855 But my dad far more 467 00:23:33,415 --> 00:23:35,015 dramatic story than, than Danny. 468 00:23:35,215 --> 00:23:36,855 I mean, Danny's was an interesting story. 469 00:23:37,055 --> 00:23:39,615 'cause where did he have the to do this? 470 00:23:40,675 --> 00:23:43,885 But, and it's an amazing artifact. 471 00:23:44,085 --> 00:23:46,205 I mean, it's, but what my father lived it, 472 00:23:46,585 --> 00:23:49,965 my father was there, he'll tell you the story of the time 473 00:23:50,035 --> 00:23:52,685 with his grandmother, my great-grandmother, 474 00:23:53,295 --> 00:23:55,445 where they encountered a Hitler rally. 475 00:23:55,815 --> 00:23:57,005 He'll tell you that story. 476 00:23:57,505 --> 00:24:00,605 And he has memories as a very little boy of the 477 00:24:01,515 --> 00:24:05,085 pervasive fear that he felt instantly with his grandmother 478 00:24:05,735 --> 00:24:07,305 picking him up off the street 479 00:24:07,305 --> 00:24:11,075 and running in the opposite direction, uh, away from Hitler, 480 00:24:11,695 --> 00:24:12,995 uh, in Berlin. 481 00:24:13,935 --> 00:24:17,635 Um, so yeah, his escape from the Nazis, I mean, 482 00:24:17,635 --> 00:24:19,475 he has a little boy, but he has memories. 483 00:24:19,475 --> 00:24:23,235 But my grandparents, my grandparents, my uncle 484 00:24:23,375 --> 00:24:26,905 who was even younger than my, my dad, you know, 485 00:24:26,905 --> 00:24:28,505 it's remarkable because, 486 00:24:29,245 --> 00:24:31,225 and I, again, we have other things I guess we're gonna talk 487 00:24:31,225 --> 00:24:35,705 about today, but at that point, most of the Jews in Germany 488 00:24:36,285 --> 00:24:39,345 at, at that point were very secular 489 00:24:40,285 --> 00:24:41,785 and were Germans first 490 00:24:42,805 --> 00:24:46,145 and again, many, many thousands 491 00:24:46,765 --> 00:24:49,265 of German Jews fought 492 00:24:49,605 --> 00:24:51,825 and died for the Kaiser in the first war. 493 00:24:52,485 --> 00:24:55,185 So there was a real sense of loyalty to Germany. 494 00:24:56,905 --> 00:25:01,325 And so that this all happened from, 495 00:25:01,985 --> 00:25:04,925 you know, I mean, it was brewing through the twenties, 496 00:25:05,105 --> 00:25:09,165 but obviously in 33 when Hitler took power, 32, 497 00:25:09,165 --> 00:25:11,685 when he was running whatever the dates, we know 498 00:25:11,875 --> 00:25:13,085 what happened subsequently. 499 00:25:13,105 --> 00:25:16,645 But there was, it was a disbelief on almost all the secular 500 00:25:16,835 --> 00:25:18,645 Jews in Germany, 501 00:25:19,145 --> 00:25:22,605 and especially in the big cities, that this could happen 502 00:25:22,955 --> 00:25:26,365 because we, we meaning the, 503 00:25:26,505 --> 00:25:27,965 the German Jews fought 504 00:25:28,625 --> 00:25:30,405 and died for the country 505 00:25:31,385 --> 00:25:33,645 in a war not that long ago. 506 00:25:34,525 --> 00:25:37,625 You know, the echoes of World War I people could argue, 507 00:25:38,635 --> 00:25:40,045 help create World War ii. 508 00:25:41,085 --> 00:25:42,625 That's a discussion from their time. 509 00:25:42,775 --> 00:25:45,985 I've, I've been in seminars where some say the Treaty 510 00:25:45,985 --> 00:25:47,065 of Versailles and this and that, 511 00:25:47,125 --> 00:25:49,665 but either way, the bottom line is 512 00:25:49,665 --> 00:25:52,145 that the Jewish population in Berlin in Germany 513 00:25:53,035 --> 00:25:55,465 never thought this could happen until it happened. 514 00:25:56,305 --> 00:25:59,265 - . Yes. That seems to be an echo that 515 00:25:59,825 --> 00:26:01,065 resounds throughout history. 516 00:26:02,035 --> 00:26:05,145 - Right? What's the only history you're doomed 517 00:26:05,145 --> 00:26:06,305 to repeat it? Or what's that line? 518 00:26:06,645 --> 00:26:09,465 - The paraphrasing of it is, if you don't know your history, 519 00:26:09,465 --> 00:26:10,625 you're doomed to repeat it. 520 00:26:10,965 --> 00:26:12,385 - It takes the people that takes 521 00:26:12,385 --> 00:26:13,865 followers to make all this happen. 522 00:26:14,485 --> 00:26:16,905 He, he couldn't do it in a vacuum by himself. 523 00:26:17,005 --> 00:26:18,105 So, and, and, 524 00:26:18,105 --> 00:26:21,585 and I guess multiple reasons, uh, that hatred 525 00:26:22,565 --> 00:26:24,745 was obviously bubbling below the surface. 526 00:26:24,775 --> 00:26:26,465 Otherwise, I don't know. 527 00:26:26,485 --> 00:26:29,305 But I can't imagine if someone, a Hitler type person at 528 00:26:29,305 --> 00:26:33,575 that point in say, England wouldn't have happened. 529 00:26:34,215 --> 00:26:37,385 'cause it was a different set, you know, 530 00:26:37,385 --> 00:26:39,305 different political mindset in England, 531 00:26:39,805 --> 00:26:41,865 - The, the economics of the country. 532 00:26:42,345 --> 00:26:46,405 I mean, if you take people who are disenfranchised, 533 00:26:47,045 --> 00:26:50,205 impoverished, hungry, upset, they don't know 534 00:26:50,225 --> 00:26:51,245 who to blame for that. 535 00:26:51,305 --> 00:26:54,805 And then you have a charismatic figure telling them, 536 00:26:55,105 --> 00:26:58,245 you can blame these people and take the onus off yourself. 537 00:26:58,905 --> 00:27:03,285 Or even the onus off of me blame all those people. Right. 538 00:27:03,515 --> 00:27:05,325 Then they got everyone on board. Right? 539 00:27:05,325 --> 00:27:09,365 Then you get everybody to, to blow the horn and the whistle 540 00:27:09,545 --> 00:27:12,085 and say, yes, if I can blame all of them 541 00:27:12,665 --> 00:27:14,205 and make myself feel better for 542 00:27:14,205 --> 00:27:16,085 how shitty I feel, then let's do that. 543 00:27:16,505 --> 00:27:18,685 - Yep. The blame game works. We mm-Hmm. 544 00:27:18,725 --> 00:27:21,685 , we know, but the, the confluence of events 545 00:27:22,595 --> 00:27:25,965 with the depression hitting worldwide Yes. 546 00:27:25,965 --> 00:27:28,525 In late 29, added to it. 547 00:27:28,905 --> 00:27:32,005 And like I said a minute ago, you, you can't escape the, 548 00:27:32,305 --> 00:27:34,045 the defeat that Germany went through. 549 00:27:34,045 --> 00:27:37,565 They, they tried to not even package it as a defeat. 550 00:27:37,875 --> 00:27:41,645 They, you know, Germany had to, on 551 00:27:42,565 --> 00:27:45,445 November 11th, 1918, actually, I guess it was the night 552 00:27:45,445 --> 00:27:48,845 of the 10th into the 11th, they surrendered in this rail car 553 00:27:49,385 --> 00:27:50,445 to the French and British 554 00:27:51,425 --> 00:27:53,565 and that rail car that 555 00:27:54,355 --> 00:27:58,085 basically humiliated the Germans in 1918, 556 00:27:58,555 --> 00:28:01,245 that same rail car Hitler found 557 00:28:01,785 --> 00:28:06,045 and had the French sign their defeat in 558 00:28:06,045 --> 00:28:09,125 that same rail car with, you know, so Hitler, 559 00:28:09,305 --> 00:28:12,205 you didn't forget what happened in the first war, 560 00:28:12,225 --> 00:28:14,245 or the great war as it was called at that time. 561 00:28:14,485 --> 00:28:16,165 'cause there was no second war yet. 562 00:28:16,625 --> 00:28:19,365 But yeah, I think all the confluence of these events, 563 00:28:19,905 --> 00:28:21,285 the Depression, but Chamber 564 00:28:21,395 --> 00:28:22,925 - Then Chamberlain didn't take 'em 565 00:28:22,925 --> 00:28:24,165 seriously. I think there, 566 00:28:24,385 --> 00:28:25,645 - No, that was a big mistake. 567 00:28:26,045 --> 00:28:29,005 , you know, a big, big mistake. 568 00:28:29,145 --> 00:28:33,805 And so it, you know, it was just the, I mean, I hate 569 00:28:33,805 --> 00:28:35,205 to use the word perfect storm, 570 00:28:35,305 --> 00:28:39,805 but it, it, in some ways, it, it, it was, what can we say? 571 00:28:39,805 --> 00:28:42,525 And we could talk about that for forever, 572 00:28:42,665 --> 00:28:45,485 but there's, there's no, there's no doubt that, you know, 573 00:28:45,625 --> 00:28:49,485 he, if you look back at the last century, uh, 574 00:28:49,585 --> 00:28:53,365 Hitler would have to be one of the most 575 00:28:54,285 --> 00:28:56,605 dominant preeminent figures of 576 00:28:56,605 --> 00:28:59,325 that whole century, I would guess. 577 00:28:59,325 --> 00:29:01,685 Right? I mean, you could make a short list of other people, 578 00:29:02,545 --> 00:29:06,685 but he'd, he'd be up there Rwanda. 579 00:29:06,685 --> 00:29:07,845 Yeah. I mean, and watch 580 00:29:07,845 --> 00:29:10,245 that fantastic movie storing Don Cheadle. 581 00:29:10,425 --> 00:29:12,445 Mm-Hmm. , um, I mean that's, 582 00:29:12,995 --> 00:29:15,045 well Killing Field's, very good movie, 583 00:29:15,105 --> 00:29:16,485 but based on a true story. 584 00:29:16,545 --> 00:29:19,045 And, and the guy hang 585 00:29:19,225 --> 00:29:23,165 nor who was playing Death Prawn ends up, um, 586 00:29:24,185 --> 00:29:25,245 he went through it himself. 587 00:29:25,245 --> 00:29:27,605 He wrote a, wrote a book that I read many years ago, 588 00:29:27,985 --> 00:29:31,225 and it had such a sad ending in real life 589 00:29:31,535 --> 00:29:34,025 because he moves to la I mean, he did this movie 590 00:29:34,495 --> 00:29:36,705 with Sam Waterston and John Malkovich 591 00:29:36,705 --> 00:29:38,305 and a bunch of others, a really good movie. 592 00:29:38,805 --> 00:29:41,525 He was murdered over a wristwatch, 593 00:29:42,505 --> 00:29:44,565 uh, many years ago. 594 00:29:45,705 --> 00:29:47,765 Uh, and so he survives the killing fields. 595 00:29:48,305 --> 00:29:51,765 He portrays death prawn, he gets these accolades, 596 00:29:52,425 --> 00:29:53,645 he has this all new life, 597 00:29:54,185 --> 00:29:57,325 and then over he is murdered over a watch or something. 598 00:29:57,905 --> 00:29:59,885 Uh, I mean, a real tragedy, but sure. 599 00:30:00,605 --> 00:30:04,645 Genocide, it's, it's far from new. 600 00:30:04,825 --> 00:30:07,885 And, and each time it comes up, 601 00:30:08,515 --> 00:30:10,605 what do people do? 602 00:30:10,785 --> 00:30:14,045 Do they turn away? Do they try to help a little bit? 603 00:30:14,785 --> 00:30:17,405 You know, what, what did we do? 604 00:30:17,915 --> 00:30:21,125 What did the West do in Cambodia at that time? Right, 605 00:30:21,915 --> 00:30:22,915 - Exactly. 606 00:30:23,555 --> 00:30:24,605 - Many, many years ago, 607 00:30:24,685 --> 00:30:27,925 I read this comprehensive biography on Hitler, uh, 608 00:30:28,045 --> 00:30:31,925 I think his name was John Toland, really very good o author. 609 00:30:32,505 --> 00:30:34,805 And he spent some time in there talking about 610 00:30:35,385 --> 00:30:38,085 the Armenian genocide in the first war, 611 00:30:38,625 --> 00:30:41,365 and how the West didn't do much. 612 00:30:41,505 --> 00:30:43,685 We were fighting the war and this and that. 613 00:30:43,745 --> 00:30:45,205 And, you know, they, 614 00:30:45,915 --> 00:30:48,725 they didn't really were concerned about it. 615 00:30:48,745 --> 00:30:50,045 The other things were more important. 616 00:30:50,745 --> 00:30:52,725 And I think there was a, a small, 617 00:30:53,135 --> 00:30:57,325 small part in Hitler's demented mind that said, 618 00:30:58,595 --> 00:31:00,295 we killed the numbers vary. 619 00:31:00,615 --> 00:31:04,415 'cause it was 1915, but 800,000 or so Armenians, 620 00:31:04,835 --> 00:31:06,375 and no one seemed to care. 621 00:31:06,675 --> 00:31:08,015 The Turks got away with it. 622 00:31:09,085 --> 00:31:11,705 So I can do that to the Jews, but I mean, 623 00:31:11,705 --> 00:31:16,085 but what Hitler did is took it to heights way 624 00:31:16,085 --> 00:31:19,485 beyond the Armenian genocide, beyond Rwanda, beyond 625 00:31:20,405 --> 00:31:22,435 anything we've ever seen. 626 00:31:22,895 --> 00:31:27,405 And what a lot of people forget is that it wasn't just Jews 627 00:31:27,755 --> 00:31:28,885 that were exterminated. 628 00:31:29,305 --> 00:31:32,405 Um, I, I know that out there, 629 00:31:33,465 --> 00:31:36,165 the ethos is that it was a Jewish holocaust. 630 00:31:36,265 --> 00:31:37,685 Yes, it clearly was 6 million. 631 00:31:37,825 --> 00:31:41,605 That's, but there were roughly another 5 million, 632 00:31:42,035 --> 00:31:46,045 whether you were homosexual, whether you were, uh, 633 00:31:46,225 --> 00:31:48,285 had Catholics, intellectuals, 634 00:31:48,325 --> 00:31:50,645 - Disabilities, dissidents, writers. 635 00:31:51,345 --> 00:31:53,765 Yep. Actors, artists. 636 00:31:54,335 --> 00:31:58,705 - Right. So that's another roughly 5 million more. 637 00:31:58,705 --> 00:32:01,345 These are numbers that are just staggering, uh, 638 00:32:01,375 --> 00:32:03,065 when, when you think about it. 639 00:32:03,065 --> 00:32:05,985 Right. His place in, in history is, 640 00:32:06,335 --> 00:32:08,225 - He's a hall of famer in hell yeah. 641 00:32:08,675 --> 00:32:11,625 - Sadly. Yeah, sadly inescapable. I mean, we, I don't know. 642 00:32:11,625 --> 00:32:14,505 But anyway, so that's the, that's sort of the overall with, 643 00:32:15,055 --> 00:32:16,345 with Danny Miller and 644 00:32:16,415 --> 00:32:17,415 - Yeah. 645 00:32:17,415 --> 00:32:18,745 Well, let's, uh, get into you. 646 00:32:19,245 --> 00:32:22,625 You have led a fascinating life thus far. 647 00:32:23,165 --> 00:32:26,305 - You know, I, I always had major interests as a kid, 648 00:32:26,365 --> 00:32:28,425 and one of 'em was, I loved the movies 649 00:32:28,605 --> 00:32:30,225 and watched a lot of tv. 650 00:32:31,285 --> 00:32:34,345 The movies held a special place for me. I always did. 651 00:32:34,575 --> 00:32:37,025 Grew up with my family, being from New York, we went 652 00:32:37,025 --> 00:32:41,405 to Broadway shows, all the classic shows of the sixties 653 00:32:41,705 --> 00:32:45,005 and seventies that, you know, were legendary. 654 00:32:45,145 --> 00:32:46,565 And there was just something 655 00:32:46,585 --> 00:32:51,565 so magical about the entertainment business, about theater, 656 00:32:51,665 --> 00:32:53,805 of course, but especially movies. 657 00:32:54,465 --> 00:32:57,565 And it kind of was all ever wanted to do. 658 00:32:57,725 --> 00:33:01,125 I didn't even know, I mean, I'm a, you know, a young kid 659 00:33:01,145 --> 00:33:03,085 and I just, they didn't have any 660 00:33:03,675 --> 00:33:07,565 film programs in high school, but I did the local theater 661 00:33:08,265 --> 00:33:12,085 and, you know, sort of found my niche, uh, 662 00:33:12,305 --> 00:33:15,285 as a producer director, but much more so as a producer. 663 00:33:15,425 --> 00:33:19,725 And went to film TV school where I was a major 664 00:33:19,905 --> 00:33:22,805 and did that and graduated from small school, 665 00:33:22,805 --> 00:33:24,365 upstate New York, called Ithaca College, 666 00:33:25,245 --> 00:33:29,635 where I had the privilege of meeting Rod Serling, 667 00:33:30,135 --> 00:33:34,355 who was like, uh, a, I think the Twilight Zone is one 668 00:33:34,355 --> 00:33:36,275 of the, you're talking about most 669 00:33:36,345 --> 00:33:38,115 influential people in history. 670 00:33:38,155 --> 00:33:41,795 I think it Twilight Zone is one of the top, I don't know, 671 00:33:41,895 --> 00:33:44,275 top 20 TV shows ever. 672 00:33:44,935 --> 00:33:49,475 The fact that he started it in 59 and ended it in, what, 64? 673 00:33:49,895 --> 00:33:53,195 And people still talk about certain Twilight Zone episodes. 674 00:33:53,695 --> 00:33:56,475 Oh, the Burgess Meredith one, oh, the William Shatner one, 675 00:33:56,495 --> 00:33:58,635 oh my, you know, and so on and so on. 676 00:33:58,975 --> 00:34:01,475 It was a great show. It was a great honor to meet him. 677 00:34:01,935 --> 00:34:03,595 He was from upstate New York. 678 00:34:04,055 --> 00:34:06,755 He taught classes at Ithaca College. 679 00:34:06,975 --> 00:34:09,515 He was very involved in bringing our 680 00:34:10,125 --> 00:34:12,435 television studio into the modern age. 681 00:34:12,935 --> 00:34:16,915 He was a terrific man who sadly died very young. 682 00:34:17,615 --> 00:34:19,155 He was a heavy smoker. 683 00:34:19,315 --> 00:34:21,395 I mean like, I dunno, two, three packs a day. 684 00:34:22,055 --> 00:34:23,675 And just a brilliant man. 685 00:34:24,095 --> 00:34:26,485 And I was a privilege 686 00:34:26,485 --> 00:34:28,605 to just shake his hand and call him Mr. 687 00:34:28,925 --> 00:34:32,625 Sterling. And I wish, I, obviously, 688 00:34:32,625 --> 00:34:34,985 I wish he had lived a long, happy, healthy life, 689 00:34:35,085 --> 00:34:37,985 but if he had just lived a few more years, instead of being 690 00:34:38,705 --> 00:34:41,705 a sophomore meeting him, I would've had him as a, a senior 691 00:34:41,755 --> 00:34:43,545 where I had even more interaction. 692 00:34:43,565 --> 00:34:47,145 But he, uh, he helped our school immensely. 693 00:34:47,725 --> 00:34:50,305 The business to me was like sort of all I wanted to do. 694 00:34:50,365 --> 00:34:53,825 And I did a lot of stuff at Ithaca Films and all that, 695 00:34:53,845 --> 00:34:57,105 but it was really, uh, you know, get into the, the business. 696 00:34:57,105 --> 00:34:59,505 As soon as I graduated, um, concurrently, 697 00:35:00,065 --> 00:35:02,665 I always had a political involvement, uh, 698 00:35:02,975 --> 00:35:07,815 because I came from a somewhat political family at Ken, 699 00:35:08,155 --> 00:35:12,135 you know, Kennedy was President Kennedy was revered, 700 00:35:13,115 --> 00:35:14,335 uh, in my family. 701 00:35:14,555 --> 00:35:17,295 And, um, you know, I know a lot 702 00:35:17,295 --> 00:35:19,495 of people from my grandparents' generation felt 703 00:35:19,495 --> 00:35:20,815 that same way about FDR. 704 00:35:21,555 --> 00:35:24,255 So I had that sort of imbued in me too. 705 00:35:24,955 --> 00:35:28,415 And there was even a story about my, 706 00:35:28,635 --> 00:35:31,575 on my mother's side about her grandmother, 707 00:35:31,715 --> 00:35:35,855 my great-grandmother marching to get the rights for women 708 00:35:35,875 --> 00:35:37,205 to vote, you know, 709 00:35:37,345 --> 00:35:40,005 before women didn't get the vote till 1920. 710 00:35:40,905 --> 00:35:45,765 And she was marching before the war to get, you know, 711 00:35:45,765 --> 00:35:48,405 and I think actually the war accelerated 712 00:35:49,015 --> 00:35:50,965 women getting the vote all over the world. 713 00:35:51,405 --> 00:35:53,445 'cause if you look at the countries when women got the vote, 714 00:35:54,045 --> 00:35:56,805 I think world, the Great War help helped that. 715 00:35:57,025 --> 00:36:01,325 But I had that sense of like, you know, pride 716 00:36:01,395 --> 00:36:03,725 that someone in my family was actually 717 00:36:03,725 --> 00:36:05,165 marching to get women. 718 00:36:05,425 --> 00:36:08,405 The, and it's, isn't it incomprehensible 719 00:36:08,515 --> 00:36:10,365 that women couldn't vote till 1920? 720 00:36:10,455 --> 00:36:12,085 Think about that. That's not, they 721 00:36:12,085 --> 00:36:13,525 - Can't own, they couldn't have their own credit 722 00:36:13,525 --> 00:36:15,005 cards in the eighties. , 723 00:36:15,115 --> 00:36:16,605 - That, that's beyond nuts. 724 00:36:17,005 --> 00:36:20,085 I mean, it's like, there, there's a, a really good movie 725 00:36:20,155 --> 00:36:21,485 with Carrie Mulligan 726 00:36:21,485 --> 00:36:23,565 who could do no wrong called Suffragette. 727 00:36:24,185 --> 00:36:25,325 And I don't know if you've seen it. 728 00:36:25,645 --> 00:36:26,645 - I haven't, but I love her. 729 00:36:27,025 --> 00:36:29,405 - Oh, she's fantastic. Meryl Streep has a small, 730 00:36:29,555 --> 00:36:31,405 basically an extended cameo in it. 731 00:36:31,405 --> 00:36:33,045 But it, it, it really talk, 732 00:36:33,365 --> 00:36:36,085 'cause the suffragette movement, which I learned a lot about 733 00:36:36,085 --> 00:36:37,765 because of my great-grandmother, 734 00:36:37,825 --> 00:36:40,805 but just in the importance of it wasn't just 735 00:36:41,585 --> 00:36:42,885 in America by any stretch. 736 00:36:42,905 --> 00:36:44,525 The suffragette movement was in Europe. 737 00:36:44,625 --> 00:36:47,085 And I mean, it was all over my 738 00:36:47,265 --> 00:36:49,045 - Great-grandmother. It was a suffragette. 739 00:36:49,865 --> 00:36:53,405 - See? So that, I'm sure you're incredibly proud of that. 740 00:36:54,285 --> 00:36:56,575 - It's pretty badass. She was a badass. 741 00:36:58,115 --> 00:37:02,175 - And was she out there with a placard? 742 00:37:02,175 --> 00:37:03,455 Marching? See, that's great. 743 00:37:04,335 --> 00:37:06,955 - Oh, yes. Very politically inclined. 744 00:37:07,105 --> 00:37:09,475 Very married to a officer in the military. 745 00:37:09,695 --> 00:37:13,395 So they would host big parties and, 746 00:37:14,095 --> 00:37:17,075 and she would flapper gums . 747 00:37:18,135 --> 00:37:22,555 She was not afraid of confrontation or speaking her mind. 748 00:37:23,535 --> 00:37:26,595 Uh, she wrote news articles. She was badass. 749 00:37:27,335 --> 00:37:28,875 - That's great. Right? Yeah. 750 00:37:29,215 --> 00:37:30,995 Did you have a chance to meet her or get to 751 00:37:30,995 --> 00:37:31,995 - Know her? 752 00:37:31,995 --> 00:37:32,635 I, no, no, no, no. She passed along 753 00:37:32,635 --> 00:37:35,675 before I ever was a twinkle in the eye, as they say. 754 00:37:36,145 --> 00:37:39,355 - Well, but you have those photo photos. I have. 755 00:37:39,595 --> 00:37:42,795 - I have photographs of her in my apartment, uh, 756 00:37:42,795 --> 00:37:46,675 because of, as I do of all the really strong 757 00:37:47,685 --> 00:37:51,115 women, independent women in my family, on my, 758 00:37:51,175 --> 00:37:54,275 on my mother's side, on my father's side only a few people 759 00:37:54,755 --> 00:37:55,875 survived World War ii. 760 00:37:56,095 --> 00:37:57,475 - So I need to interview you 761 00:37:57,575 --> 00:37:59,355 so you can tell your father's story. 762 00:38:00,105 --> 00:38:02,435 - I've interviewed dad a few, a couple times for the show. 763 00:38:02,455 --> 00:38:04,555 And my mom, uh, they are great interviews. 764 00:38:05,175 --> 00:38:07,955 And I say this on a lot of different episodes. 765 00:38:08,455 --> 00:38:12,595 If you have the opportunity to interview your parents, 766 00:38:13,025 --> 00:38:15,675 your grandparents, your great uncles, whatever it is, 767 00:38:16,745 --> 00:38:20,315 your neighbors who are above a certain age, please do it. 768 00:38:20,575 --> 00:38:24,315 You they hold in their hands and in their minds 769 00:38:24,575 --> 00:38:29,235 and in their, their stories, stuff that we're gonna lose 770 00:38:29,815 --> 00:38:30,835 if it's not recorded. 771 00:38:31,175 --> 00:38:32,755 - So to that point, Susan, 772 00:38:32,955 --> 00:38:34,435 I a hundred percent agree with you. 773 00:38:34,535 --> 00:38:36,685 And what I did at Ithaca, 774 00:38:36,685 --> 00:38:39,005 besides being a film TV major, is 775 00:38:39,005 --> 00:38:40,845 that I ended up being a history minor 776 00:38:41,505 --> 00:38:43,125 and part of the prerequisite. 777 00:38:43,345 --> 00:38:47,965 So this is 1976, I did an exhaustive, uh, 778 00:38:48,185 --> 00:38:50,965 family history paper interview 779 00:38:50,965 --> 00:38:53,685 because my grandparents were still alive, 780 00:38:54,385 --> 00:38:56,285 and I had a chance to sit down 781 00:38:56,305 --> 00:38:57,925 and talk with them on both sides. 782 00:38:58,785 --> 00:39:01,925 And I got it all on paper. 783 00:39:02,665 --> 00:39:07,165 And even went back, uh, just about a decade ago, 784 00:39:07,285 --> 00:39:10,445 I had the paper and sat again with my mom and dad. 785 00:39:10,465 --> 00:39:14,205 Of course, my grandparents are long gone at this point, 786 00:39:14,505 --> 00:39:17,165 but I wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything 787 00:39:17,665 --> 00:39:21,765 but sitting, especially with my grandmother, my, the one 788 00:39:21,765 --> 00:39:24,425 who escaped from the Nazis 789 00:39:25,085 --> 00:39:27,425 and what that was all like, 790 00:39:27,525 --> 00:39:29,745 and some of that we'll talk more in a couple 791 00:39:29,745 --> 00:39:30,785 weeks with my father. 792 00:39:30,965 --> 00:39:34,665 But I mean, this was, you know, a woman who 793 00:39:35,915 --> 00:39:38,575 at any point could have been killed with two young children 794 00:39:38,835 --> 00:39:42,255 and, and parents and all this thing. 795 00:39:42,795 --> 00:39:45,975 And, and, you know, I I, it needed to be put on paper. 796 00:39:46,435 --> 00:39:50,775 And so I did that and talking with my mother's father, 797 00:39:51,635 --> 00:39:56,235 who I loved beyond words, I can even get choked up 798 00:39:56,235 --> 00:39:59,955 how much I, I still miss my grandfather talking about 799 00:40:01,045 --> 00:40:04,865 his family from the 1880s and the pogroms 800 00:40:05,895 --> 00:40:08,435 and the great-grandmother I talked 801 00:40:08,435 --> 00:40:09,675 to you about a minute ago. 802 00:40:10,535 --> 00:40:14,675 The suffragette, the women must get their vote that she 803 00:40:15,655 --> 00:40:18,075 was born in some tel, which were kind 804 00:40:18,075 --> 00:40:19,315 of figured out somewhere. 805 00:40:19,415 --> 00:40:22,035 Poland, Russia, as those borders changed a lot. 806 00:40:23,545 --> 00:40:28,325 She had stories of survival too, through the pogroms 807 00:40:28,955 --> 00:40:30,925 that were were lost. 808 00:40:31,485 --> 00:40:35,255 I mean, we know a little bit about the pogroms 809 00:40:35,255 --> 00:40:36,775 and what the cossacks did and all that, 810 00:40:36,795 --> 00:40:40,175 but it that, that's really lost to history, don't you think? 811 00:40:40,295 --> 00:40:41,295 I mean, that era 812 00:40:42,215 --> 00:40:43,505 - Abso Well, absolutely. 813 00:40:44,205 --> 00:40:45,545 - She had told a story, and I, 814 00:40:45,945 --> 00:40:47,745 I know we we're gotta get back on track, 815 00:40:47,885 --> 00:40:50,185 but she was a little girl 816 00:40:50,975 --> 00:40:53,145 when the Cass ex would come in 817 00:40:53,165 --> 00:40:55,105 and the marauders would come in 818 00:40:55,125 --> 00:40:59,345 and they're in their home behind a bureau 819 00:41:00,085 --> 00:41:01,345 was a little crawl space. 820 00:41:01,965 --> 00:41:05,585 And the children, when these marauders would come in, 821 00:41:06,245 --> 00:41:08,345 the children would be hidden in the crawlspace 822 00:41:08,365 --> 00:41:10,545 and the bureau would be closed. 823 00:41:10,685 --> 00:41:15,385 So they, you couldn't tell so that if they were gonna r rape 824 00:41:15,565 --> 00:41:18,585 and pillage and beat up, it was just the adults 825 00:41:18,585 --> 00:41:20,865 that took the brunt of it and the children. 826 00:41:21,325 --> 00:41:25,945 So imagine you're 5, 6, 7 years old in a crawlspace 827 00:41:26,245 --> 00:41:29,545 in, in the dark listening to your mother, your father, 828 00:41:29,545 --> 00:41:31,785 your aunt, your uncle being beaten up 829 00:41:32,135 --> 00:41:33,375 because they were Jewish. 830 00:41:34,485 --> 00:41:36,105 And then of course they would leave 831 00:41:36,125 --> 00:41:37,745 and they'd come out of the crawlspace 832 00:41:37,805 --> 00:41:40,865 and they'd, you know, deal with what happened. 833 00:41:41,325 --> 00:41:45,275 But the psychological damage that that does 834 00:41:45,295 --> 00:41:48,755 to a little girl, little child, whatever, knowing that, and, 835 00:41:48,775 --> 00:41:52,755 and their escape ultimately to get 836 00:41:52,755 --> 00:41:54,515 to freedom when they, they left. 837 00:41:54,575 --> 00:41:58,795 And the irony is that they left the Polish Russian area. 838 00:41:59,415 --> 00:42:02,555 And at that point in the 1880s, they went to Germany 839 00:42:03,095 --> 00:42:06,355 for freedom for a small amount of time 840 00:42:06,575 --> 00:42:09,555 before, of course eventually coming to America. 841 00:42:09,975 --> 00:42:13,755 And I have my great-grandfather's citizenship papers 842 00:42:14,335 --> 00:42:18,175 framed under museum glass in my office 843 00:42:19,235 --> 00:42:20,525 from 1898. 844 00:42:21,265 --> 00:42:24,045 And, uh, you know, he, that was always something kind 845 00:42:24,045 --> 00:42:27,685 of special that he became a, an American citizen in 1898. 846 00:42:28,425 --> 00:42:31,045 - That's really incredible that you have that, 847 00:42:31,045 --> 00:42:34,885 because so much of that has been lost to time. 848 00:42:35,305 --> 00:42:37,925 - Oh, totally. I mean, we're losing things to time 849 00:42:38,665 --> 00:42:42,525 in the last a hundred years or even less, let alone 850 00:42:43,185 --> 00:42:44,685 before that, you know? 851 00:42:44,685 --> 00:42:46,325 Yeah. You say, you say programs 852 00:42:46,325 --> 00:42:47,485 to people and they go, what program? 853 00:42:47,825 --> 00:42:50,725 No, not program pogroms. They're like, ah, okay. 854 00:42:51,265 --> 00:42:53,925 But anyway, so PO politics was always something 855 00:42:53,925 --> 00:42:55,005 that was interesting to me. 856 00:42:55,285 --> 00:42:59,205 I, um, uh, you know, obviously I a, a progressive, um, 857 00:42:59,785 --> 00:43:01,925 and I, I remember 858 00:43:01,925 --> 00:43:05,285 before I could even vote, uh, I was in high school 859 00:43:05,985 --> 00:43:07,765 and I worked for George McGovern, 860 00:43:08,425 --> 00:43:12,045 and we got a chance to heckle Richard Nixon at a rally. 861 00:43:12,235 --> 00:43:13,685 It's like students from McGovern. 862 00:43:14,145 --> 00:43:15,605 And, you know, that was sort of my, 863 00:43:15,665 --> 00:43:18,325 my first foray a little bit into politics. 864 00:43:18,325 --> 00:43:21,165 And it was fun. And, you know, it was about Vietnam 865 00:43:21,305 --> 00:43:23,445 and civil rights and women's rights 866 00:43:23,585 --> 00:43:26,205 and, you know, earth Day had, just, 867 00:43:26,295 --> 00:43:28,725 earth Day was only like two years before that. 868 00:43:28,825 --> 00:43:31,405 And like, there were things that were important. 869 00:43:31,545 --> 00:43:33,245 Um, and so I got involved 870 00:43:33,345 --> 00:43:37,635 and, you know, I mean, obviously the McGovern thing, we kind 871 00:43:37,635 --> 00:43:38,955 of knew the handwriting was on the wall, 872 00:43:39,455 --> 00:43:41,795 but it was still energetic and it was fun. 873 00:43:41,895 --> 00:43:43,395 And, you know, I would, 874 00:43:43,765 --> 00:43:47,525 after high school classes, I would run down 875 00:43:47,525 --> 00:43:50,925 to the headquarters and do volunteer work. 876 00:43:50,925 --> 00:43:52,245 And so, but you know, the, 877 00:43:52,465 --> 00:43:55,285 the business was my front burner thing for sure. 878 00:43:55,745 --> 00:43:57,445 And so I get outta school, 879 00:43:57,725 --> 00:44:00,485 I end up in New York working in the news business 880 00:44:00,785 --> 00:44:02,685 for a local New York news. 881 00:44:02,685 --> 00:44:05,085 Then I got a chance to direct, uh, 882 00:44:05,085 --> 00:44:08,405 cable Network news at a place called Satellite News Channel. 883 00:44:08,745 --> 00:44:10,085 And it was great fun. 884 00:44:10,625 --> 00:44:14,805 And that it was a, an international cable news, 24 hours, 885 00:44:15,195 --> 00:44:17,405 even before Turner was truly 24 hours. 886 00:44:17,625 --> 00:44:18,765 It was a little ahead of its time. 887 00:44:19,465 --> 00:44:24,125 It lasted a year and a half. And then Turner shut it down. 888 00:44:24,185 --> 00:44:25,525 He bought us out, shut it down. 889 00:44:25,545 --> 00:44:27,765 It was owned by group W and a B, C. 890 00:44:28,065 --> 00:44:30,485 But news was interesting, and it was live, 891 00:44:30,585 --> 00:44:33,965 and I really got to, to direct news in multiple cameras 892 00:44:34,145 --> 00:44:37,445 and remotes, and which was gonna serve me later in life 893 00:44:37,555 --> 00:44:40,325 with a project I ended up doing just a few years ago. 894 00:44:40,585 --> 00:44:42,045 But I really wanted to make movies. 895 00:44:42,325 --> 00:44:43,565 I mean, that was really the dream. 896 00:44:44,025 --> 00:44:46,205 And somehow News thrived 897 00:44:46,205 --> 00:44:48,725 and was at its most exciting when it was built 898 00:44:48,725 --> 00:44:52,085 around tragedy and horror, plane crashes, fires, 899 00:44:52,085 --> 00:44:54,845 earthquakes, tornadoes, murders, whatever. 900 00:44:55,305 --> 00:44:57,285 If it bleeds, it leads, right? 901 00:44:57,385 --> 00:45:00,525 And that's been the mantra forever and ever. 902 00:45:00,985 --> 00:45:03,325 And I didn't necessarily want to do that. 903 00:45:03,525 --> 00:45:04,765 I wanted to make movies. 904 00:45:04,825 --> 00:45:07,245 So I, it was in a way a good thing 905 00:45:07,795 --> 00:45:10,125 that Turner shut down the satellite news channel, 906 00:45:10,125 --> 00:45:11,645 bought them out, put, 907 00:45:11,865 --> 00:45:14,525 put like 430 people outta work overnight. 908 00:45:15,045 --> 00:45:16,525 I said, okay, move to la. 909 00:45:16,725 --> 00:45:17,805 I I came to LA 910 00:45:17,825 --> 00:45:22,125 and really started the pursuing of, uh, a film career, 911 00:45:22,265 --> 00:45:26,925 or, you know, I ended up working, uh, a bit as a, an ad, 912 00:45:27,005 --> 00:45:29,765 a first ad, which is an interesting position, a means 913 00:45:29,785 --> 00:45:32,605 to an end to get to be a line producer and a producer. 914 00:45:33,145 --> 00:45:34,405 Had a, had a fun time 915 00:45:34,585 --> 00:45:38,125 and a, a network pilot called Man About Town 916 00:45:38,155 --> 00:45:41,405 with Daniel Stern, who you probably know Daniel Stern. 917 00:45:41,435 --> 00:45:45,685 Yeah. Um, it was a really fun project at MTM at the height 918 00:45:45,685 --> 00:45:48,125 of MTM when they were doing St elsewhere 919 00:45:48,125 --> 00:45:49,365 and Hill Street Blues. 920 00:45:49,945 --> 00:45:51,885 And we did our sitcom 921 00:45:52,745 --> 00:45:55,645 in the Mary Tyler Moore stage. 922 00:45:56,025 --> 00:45:59,365 So this is where, talk about women that blazed the trail. 923 00:46:00,395 --> 00:46:01,925 Mary Tyler Morman, she up there 924 00:46:01,925 --> 00:46:03,525 with Carol Burnett and a bunch of others. 925 00:46:04,185 --> 00:46:05,365 And I was on that stage 926 00:46:05,365 --> 00:46:07,005 and that, that's just really amazing. 927 00:46:07,225 --> 00:46:10,565 And then I just started doing low budget films as a first. 928 00:46:10,665 --> 00:46:12,725 And the, the goal for me, of course, was 929 00:46:12,725 --> 00:46:15,125 to not be a first ad for too long, uh, 930 00:46:15,265 --> 00:46:18,605 and got a couple pm credits, line producer credits, 931 00:46:18,845 --> 00:46:23,165 producer credits, and um, I think on my IMDB page, 932 00:46:23,275 --> 00:46:26,085 I've got 20 producer credits 933 00:46:26,185 --> 00:46:29,625 and other production credits. 934 00:46:29,635 --> 00:46:32,345 First, some of my acting credits, I dabbled in that 935 00:46:33,065 --> 00:46:37,825 I got into SAG in 1983 and, you know, so LA 936 00:46:37,825 --> 00:46:38,985 and, uh, I miss New York. 937 00:46:39,365 --> 00:46:41,985 Uh, my family's there, but LA's been home 938 00:46:42,415 --> 00:46:44,065 career-wise, it's been pretty good. 939 00:46:44,125 --> 00:46:48,385 And, you know, I, uh, I did go back for a time 940 00:46:49,365 --> 00:46:53,425 to work on the Mondale Ferraro campaign 941 00:46:53,835 --> 00:46:57,425 where I was assigned as a video crew, uh, 942 00:46:57,485 --> 00:47:00,945 for Geraldine Ferraro's Northeast Speeches. 943 00:47:01,245 --> 00:47:05,625 We would, uh, record them and to shoot B roll. 944 00:47:05,765 --> 00:47:08,465 And at that time, everything was like on Threequarter Inch. 945 00:47:09,065 --> 00:47:10,345 Remember those Threequarter Inch mission? 946 00:47:10,345 --> 00:47:11,585 You're too young to remember that. 947 00:47:12,045 --> 00:47:15,345 It was an, an old system anyway, uh, but it came back here. 948 00:47:16,205 --> 00:47:20,425 And, uh, you know, it's been a progression of movies 949 00:47:20,495 --> 00:47:23,625 through the eighties, nineties, early two thousands, 950 00:47:24,615 --> 00:47:27,075 had a lot of movies that are near and dear to me. 951 00:47:27,385 --> 00:47:28,715 Some not so much. You know, 952 00:47:28,715 --> 00:47:30,845 when you start looking at the title, some actors 953 00:47:31,555 --> 00:47:32,885 that I loved working with 954 00:47:32,905 --> 00:47:35,965 and some that were real pain in the butt, who 955 00:47:35,965 --> 00:47:36,965 - Did you love working with? 956 00:47:37,335 --> 00:47:40,605 - Linda Carter was absolutely fantastic. 957 00:47:41,225 --> 00:47:42,605 Um, you know, she, 958 00:47:42,625 --> 00:47:44,125 and most people remember her as Wonder Woman. 959 00:47:44,785 --> 00:47:48,555 Um, but she, she couldn't have been nicer. 960 00:47:48,935 --> 00:47:51,395 She even in fact said that 961 00:47:51,395 --> 00:47:55,675 because of her Wonder Woman fame, that when people found out 962 00:47:55,675 --> 00:47:57,275 where the, where we were filming mostly, 963 00:47:57,275 --> 00:47:59,035 it was up in Santa Clarita at that point, 964 00:47:59,055 --> 00:48:01,835 but still within the 30 Mile Zone, people would come 965 00:48:01,855 --> 00:48:03,835 and she said, I'm gonna have fans show up. 966 00:48:04,695 --> 00:48:07,315 And she said, here's what I'd like to do on my time. 967 00:48:07,315 --> 00:48:09,075 Meaning our lunchtime, not on the films time, 968 00:48:09,075 --> 00:48:10,835 but during her lunch break, she said, 969 00:48:10,835 --> 00:48:12,755 let's set up some chairs in a little area 970 00:48:13,045 --> 00:48:14,075 where they can sit. 971 00:48:14,585 --> 00:48:15,635 I'll take pictures with them, 972 00:48:15,705 --> 00:48:17,315 I'll sign autographs and all that. 973 00:48:17,625 --> 00:48:19,035 Then I'll ask 'em to leave. 974 00:48:19,035 --> 00:48:21,275 But I won't take away from production's time. 975 00:48:21,865 --> 00:48:24,955 Just, you know, and I mean, and Linda was just great. 976 00:48:25,055 --> 00:48:29,585 She, she was great with the crew also on, on 977 00:48:29,585 --> 00:48:32,685 that film, Dee Wallace, the mother from et 978 00:48:33,385 --> 00:48:36,285 - Oh, she's, so I met her at John's house, 979 00:48:36,375 --> 00:48:37,375 - Right. 980 00:48:37,375 --> 00:48:39,525 And so I reconnected with her at John's party too. Yeah. 981 00:48:39,525 --> 00:48:41,405 And Dee Dee looks at me and I look at her 982 00:48:41,425 --> 00:48:43,525 and I'm going over, and she says, 983 00:48:43,625 --> 00:48:46,965 we worked together 30 years ago, and she gave me a hug, 984 00:48:46,985 --> 00:48:48,365 and we talked about the film. 985 00:48:48,905 --> 00:48:50,765 And Dee is just that on, 986 00:48:50,825 --> 00:48:53,725 on the actor side, a lot of good guys. 987 00:48:54,045 --> 00:48:56,205 Probably the two I'll mention there is Jason Alexander, 988 00:48:57,545 --> 00:48:59,845 who a real mensch, what a guy. 989 00:49:00,285 --> 00:49:04,265 I would work with him in a heartbeat on anything. 990 00:49:04,965 --> 00:49:07,345 Um, the nicest guy. 991 00:49:07,545 --> 00:49:11,985 I mean, it's like, just, you know, so we did our film 992 00:49:12,015 --> 00:49:14,745 between season two and season three of Seinfeld. 993 00:49:15,205 --> 00:49:17,225 So Seinfeld was already on, 994 00:49:17,365 --> 00:49:20,065 but it, it hadn't become the explosive hit 995 00:49:20,655 --> 00:49:23,465 that I think it became, certainly once season three. 996 00:49:23,885 --> 00:49:27,305 And the other actor, which I did two films with in the, uh, 997 00:49:27,305 --> 00:49:29,305 early two thousands was Michael York. 998 00:49:29,645 --> 00:49:31,865 If you look at his credits, they're amazing. 999 00:49:32,105 --> 00:49:34,945 I mean, from, he was in, I think in Cabaret, 1000 00:49:35,005 --> 00:49:37,585 the Three Musketeers, was it Logan's Run? 1001 00:49:37,705 --> 00:49:41,465 I have to check. Michael worked all the time. 1002 00:49:42,325 --> 00:49:47,025 He was a kind of a refined British actor, 1003 00:49:47,685 --> 00:49:49,105 um, very into Shakespeare. 1004 00:49:49,845 --> 00:49:53,465 And, uh, the two movies I do with him, we film mostly 1005 00:49:54,045 --> 00:49:55,705 in, uh, Europe. 1006 00:49:56,285 --> 00:49:58,745 And so, um, it was fun hanging with him. 1007 00:49:59,575 --> 00:50:01,425 Michael's a great, here's a one 1008 00:50:01,425 --> 00:50:02,625 quick anecdote about Michael. 1009 00:50:03,125 --> 00:50:04,505 He wrote a book, 1010 00:50:05,245 --> 00:50:07,075 which I'm telling you this a little backwards. 1011 00:50:07,075 --> 00:50:08,435 So I kept in touch a little with Michael. 1012 00:50:08,535 --> 00:50:13,075 We had the occasional lunch, but between the first 1013 00:50:13,075 --> 00:50:14,275 and second movie and a little bit 1014 00:50:14,275 --> 00:50:15,435 less after the second movie. 1015 00:50:16,175 --> 00:50:20,235 And then he calls me, and I thought it was just to check in. 1016 00:50:20,235 --> 00:50:23,155 He said, um, I'm having a book signing at Book Soup, 1017 00:50:23,155 --> 00:50:24,995 you know, book Soup on, yeah, I love Book Soup. 1018 00:50:25,205 --> 00:50:28,145 Great store. Yeah, great, great. I, I hope it stays around. 1019 00:50:28,225 --> 00:50:31,105 I love that story. And he said, I'd like you to come 1020 00:50:31,125 --> 00:50:32,705 and sit in the front row and join me. 1021 00:50:32,745 --> 00:50:34,385 I go, sure. What's the book about? 1022 00:50:34,405 --> 00:50:37,345 He said, well, it's, I need to tell you that you're, 1023 00:50:37,525 --> 00:50:39,425 you're mentioned all throughout the book. 1024 00:50:40,065 --> 00:50:43,145 I go, well, Michael, what I, he says, well, I chronicled 1025 00:50:44,305 --> 00:50:46,005 the filming in the making 1026 00:50:46,665 --> 00:50:48,285 of this film called the Omega Code, 1027 00:50:48,535 --> 00:50:51,245 which I was a producer on, and he was the star. 1028 00:50:52,265 --> 00:50:54,445 And I'm thinking, okay, I hope you 1029 00:50:55,315 --> 00:50:58,765 portrayed me in a good light and all that, and not some. 1030 00:50:59,185 --> 00:51:01,845 He goes, no, no, I, I tried to tell it as it happened. 1031 00:51:02,855 --> 00:51:04,115 So I I part of me. 1032 00:51:04,335 --> 00:51:07,315 So I went, and I, I supported Michael 1033 00:51:07,375 --> 00:51:09,515 and he had a good crowded book soup, and it was really nice. 1034 00:51:09,575 --> 00:51:11,355 And we chatted a bit afterwards, 1035 00:51:11,415 --> 00:51:12,795 and his wife, pat York, 1036 00:51:13,255 --> 00:51:15,115 was an accomplished photographer, was there. 1037 00:51:15,535 --> 00:51:16,595 But part of me was like, 1038 00:51:16,815 --> 00:51:19,195 if you're gonna write a lot about a person, 1039 00:51:20,145 --> 00:51:21,475 shouldn't you have given like 1040 00:51:21,475 --> 00:51:23,435 that person at least a heads up, 1041 00:51:23,785 --> 00:51:27,515 that you're like scattered throughout my book in 1042 00:51:28,135 --> 00:51:29,155 as Gary Bettman? 1043 00:51:29,555 --> 00:51:31,035 I didn't say that, but I'm thinking that. 1044 00:51:31,035 --> 00:51:32,475 I said that to my wife. I said, you know, 1045 00:51:32,475 --> 00:51:33,995 Michael should have just, and, 1046 00:51:34,135 --> 00:51:38,315 and unfortunately one key thing that happened, he got wrong. 1047 00:51:38,655 --> 00:51:42,225 And now that's in print. There's no way to correct it. 1048 00:51:42,765 --> 00:51:44,665 And so it, it was a, 1049 00:51:44,945 --> 00:51:47,985 a very key moment in pre-production 1050 00:51:48,655 --> 00:51:51,425 that he attributed something to the wrong person. 1051 00:51:51,685 --> 00:51:53,425 And it, it, anyway, it, it, 1052 00:51:53,445 --> 00:51:54,705 but I, you know, what are you gonna do? 1053 00:51:55,175 --> 00:51:57,585 Poor Michael, though. I, I, uh, when he got his, um, 1054 00:51:58,015 --> 00:52:01,545 star on the walk of fame, I went down there, 1055 00:52:01,885 --> 00:52:03,145 got him a bottle of champagne. 1056 00:52:03,165 --> 00:52:05,945 But the last I have been, I've lost question 1057 00:52:05,945 --> 00:52:09,065 because he has some terrible illness that he survived. 1058 00:52:09,165 --> 00:52:12,985 And if you, you know, look, research, Google, whatever, 1059 00:52:12,985 --> 00:52:16,105 Michael York, the, the poor guy went through hell 1060 00:52:16,725 --> 00:52:20,665 and became partly unrecognizable 1061 00:52:20,815 --> 00:52:22,305 with this rare illness. 1062 00:52:22,485 --> 00:52:25,305 And he wrote another book about it, and it's a real tragedy. 1063 00:52:25,705 --> 00:52:28,625 I mean, he's alive and he's okay. It's a real sad ending. 1064 00:52:28,685 --> 00:52:32,385 So those were two women, two men too, that I, you know, 1065 00:52:32,605 --> 00:52:34,145 and there, there's, there's a lot 1066 00:52:34,145 --> 00:52:35,305 of nice people in the business. 1067 00:52:35,305 --> 00:52:38,025 There's a lot of pain in the asses too, right? 1068 00:52:38,495 --> 00:52:40,585 - Sure. Just like in any profession, 1069 00:52:41,725 --> 00:52:43,105 - You, you know that, right? 1070 00:52:44,005 --> 00:52:45,265 - For sure. - Yeah. 1071 00:52:45,325 --> 00:52:47,145 So anyway, and so I made a lot of movies 1072 00:52:47,765 --> 00:52:51,185 and had a lot of fun shot in Italy, 1073 00:52:51,445 --> 00:52:55,145 and I did a couple films in Israel, did a wonderful film, 1074 00:52:55,685 --> 00:52:59,305 and the entire film start to finish in Puerto Rico, one 1075 00:52:59,305 --> 00:53:00,665 of my favorites called Undercurrent 1076 00:53:01,295 --> 00:53:03,105 with a guy named Lorenzo Ami 1077 00:53:03,905 --> 00:53:04,905 - Sure. 1078 00:53:04,905 --> 00:53:08,185 - Who made a big splash on some primetime shows. 1079 00:53:08,185 --> 00:53:09,545 Then he had a syndicated show 1080 00:53:09,545 --> 00:53:10,985 called Renegade in the nineties. 1081 00:53:11,045 --> 00:53:15,705 And well, Lorenzo Ami was the son of Fernando Ami, 1082 00:53:16,245 --> 00:53:18,665 who was a, a big, you know, they used to call it, 1083 00:53:19,205 --> 00:53:22,105 now you can't say it, but they're like a Latin lover type 1084 00:53:22,735 --> 00:53:24,225 from my parents' generation. 1085 00:53:24,485 --> 00:53:26,125 So he was born into the business, 1086 00:53:26,385 --> 00:53:28,885 and I think he was on some show like Falcon Crest 1087 00:53:28,885 --> 00:53:30,365 or one of those shows. 1088 00:53:30,585 --> 00:53:32,605 But he, he, he also, 1089 00:53:33,935 --> 00:53:36,725 after he did the film with me called Undercurrent, 1090 00:53:37,005 --> 00:53:39,125 I know he had some difficulty with drugs 1091 00:53:39,145 --> 00:53:40,845 and things that I think he's about, 1092 00:53:40,865 --> 00:53:44,885 but at the time, his, that was a, a, one of my favorites 1093 00:53:44,885 --> 00:53:47,165 of the 20, and I think there was a film, 1094 00:53:47,645 --> 00:53:49,365 I don't think there was a film called A 1095 00:53:49,365 --> 00:53:50,445 Gun, A Car, A Blonde. 1096 00:53:51,665 --> 00:53:55,395 That was another one of, if I had to pick like four 1097 00:53:55,395 --> 00:53:58,395 or five of my favorite that would be up there 1098 00:53:58,865 --> 00:54:02,255 with Billy Bob Thornton, who we did this 1099 00:54:03,335 --> 00:54:05,295 right at the time, he had, just right 1100 00:54:05,295 --> 00:54:06,975 after the time, he had done Sling Blade. 1101 00:54:07,295 --> 00:54:08,495 Remember Sling Blade? Sure 1102 00:54:08,495 --> 00:54:09,495 - Do. 1103 00:54:09,495 --> 00:54:13,435 - Put him on the map. And, uh, in fact, Billy invited Renee 1104 00:54:13,435 --> 00:54:14,835 and I to a private screening 1105 00:54:14,835 --> 00:54:18,155 of Sling Blade at the Raleigh Studios, you know, kind 1106 00:54:18,155 --> 00:54:19,395 of across from Paramount. 1107 00:54:19,855 --> 00:54:22,035 - He is a really interesting human being. 1108 00:54:22,315 --> 00:54:26,235 I mean, he is an exceptional writer, an actor, deep thinker. 1109 00:54:26,705 --> 00:54:30,755 He's talks about when his brother passed away, how 1110 00:54:30,755 --> 00:54:33,155 that affects him still to this day, 1111 00:54:33,425 --> 00:54:34,795 obviously, why wouldn't it? 1112 00:54:35,455 --> 00:54:40,155 And, uh, that is a person I think has many pools of depth. 1113 00:54:40,865 --> 00:54:43,315 - Well, Billy and he talked to me a lot about, 1114 00:54:43,315 --> 00:54:46,715 this came from, oh, like kind of poverty in Arkansas, 1115 00:54:47,175 --> 00:54:49,115 and he grew up, uh, he, 1116 00:54:50,075 --> 00:54:51,955 I think the story was when he was a little boy, 1117 00:54:51,955 --> 00:54:53,115 he didn't even have plumbing yet. 1118 00:54:53,235 --> 00:54:55,035 I mean, he was still using an outhouse. 1119 00:54:55,035 --> 00:54:57,915 So he, he came from, you know, they used 1120 00:54:57,915 --> 00:54:59,315 to call it hard Scrabble life. 1121 00:54:59,675 --> 00:55:01,715 Remember that term? Like what does that even mean? 1122 00:55:01,775 --> 00:55:04,035 But Billy was great for the project. 1123 00:55:04,335 --> 00:55:06,515 It was a small movie, proud of it. 1124 00:55:06,855 --> 00:55:09,995 He got us, John Ritter, who he, he was friends with. 1125 00:55:10,415 --> 00:55:14,075 So John John was, uh, in it rest his soul. Yeah. 1126 00:55:15,385 --> 00:55:18,855 Billy was very gregarious and hang out with the crew. 1127 00:55:18,915 --> 00:55:20,815 And John was very reserved. 1128 00:55:20,815 --> 00:55:24,375 John would come, go to his trailer, never forgot a line, 1129 00:55:24,435 --> 00:55:25,615 always showed up on time, 1130 00:55:25,995 --> 00:55:27,855 but he wasn't a hangout sort of a guy. 1131 00:55:28,515 --> 00:55:30,135 He kind of was. But it was great 1132 00:55:30,135 --> 00:55:31,375 because we needed some names. 1133 00:55:32,035 --> 00:55:34,655 Uh, the lead was a, an actor named Jim Metzler, 1134 00:55:35,155 --> 00:55:37,655 who was wonderful, but he was in one false 1135 00:55:37,805 --> 00:55:38,895 move many years ago. 1136 00:55:38,895 --> 00:55:40,895 He had a small part in LA Confidential, 1137 00:55:41,755 --> 00:55:43,175 and he's worked a bit, 1138 00:55:43,235 --> 00:55:46,775 but it was a really interesting story, a two concurrent. 1139 00:55:47,475 --> 00:55:49,655 We shot half in black and white and half in color. 1140 00:55:50,195 --> 00:55:54,375 And the, the Jim, the lead, who was a guy racked 1141 00:55:54,375 --> 00:55:57,415 and dying of cancer, and he was very sick, 1142 00:55:57,435 --> 00:56:02,175 and he created this alternative world in his mind to escape 1143 00:56:02,875 --> 00:56:04,855 the, the pain that he was going through. 1144 00:56:05,315 --> 00:56:09,075 And so the real world was in color, 1145 00:56:09,175 --> 00:56:12,995 and the, the manifested world was in black and white, 1146 00:56:13,135 --> 00:56:16,275 but it was a tribute to film noir. 1147 00:56:16,535 --> 00:56:18,955 The black and white was all a noir. 1148 00:56:19,095 --> 00:56:22,915 And, you know, uh, even our composer, a guy named Harry 1149 00:56:23,425 --> 00:56:25,605 Manini, who I've worked with on a number of films, 1150 00:56:25,665 --> 00:56:28,605 and he's even scored commercials, he's best known 1151 00:56:28,705 --> 00:56:30,085 for Friday the 13th. 1152 00:56:30,605 --> 00:56:33,405 I mean, Harry does, you know, you know that whole, 1153 00:56:33,785 --> 00:56:38,125 but he created a jazz score, a noir type jazz score, 1154 00:56:38,125 --> 00:56:42,305 and a, a title song that just wonderful. 1155 00:56:42,365 --> 00:56:44,225 And it tells, it tells a good story. 1156 00:56:44,325 --> 00:56:46,705 And, you know, I'd done a lot of action films 1157 00:56:46,805 --> 00:56:48,465 and a couple of romantic comedies, 1158 00:56:48,465 --> 00:56:51,705 and this kind of movie that was telling parallel story was, 1159 00:56:51,925 --> 00:56:54,785 was a lot of fun for me as a producer. 1160 00:56:55,985 --> 00:56:58,565 - How did you get involved in working 1161 00:56:58,825 --> 00:57:00,965 for political campaigns then? 1162 00:57:01,165 --> 00:57:03,525 I know that you came up as a kid doing stuff, 1163 00:57:03,585 --> 00:57:06,165 but yeah, that seems like a heavy load of 1164 00:57:06,735 --> 00:57:08,605 doing the film production and 1165 00:57:09,005 --> 00:57:10,005 - Unbelievable. 1166 00:57:10,005 --> 00:57:14,125 And, and there were times, um, so I mean, I, I volunteered, 1167 00:57:14,355 --> 00:57:16,525 like I said, I worked on the Mondale Ferraro 1168 00:57:17,145 --> 00:57:19,965 by the time 88 came around in Du Caucus. 1169 00:57:20,505 --> 00:57:22,205 We knew we had an uphill battle then, 1170 00:57:22,585 --> 00:57:26,085 but I was able to, the last month 1171 00:57:26,085 --> 00:57:27,765 and a half, two months, if I wasn't working, 1172 00:57:28,085 --> 00:57:30,165 I could then donate, donate my time, 1173 00:57:30,165 --> 00:57:32,765 because at that point it was volunteer work. 1174 00:57:33,425 --> 00:57:37,005 Uh, but it really, I really got much more involved in, 1175 00:57:37,305 --> 00:57:40,445 in Clinton 92 and 96. 1176 00:57:40,785 --> 00:57:44,725 And fortunately, I was able 1177 00:57:44,725 --> 00:57:47,965 to coordinate my workload and my volunteer work. 1178 00:57:48,805 --> 00:57:52,265 In 2000. I was in Italy 1179 00:57:52,965 --> 00:57:54,065 for the Gore Lieberman, 1180 00:57:54,205 --> 00:57:57,525 and I didn't come back 1181 00:57:58,445 --> 00:58:01,415 from filming in Italy, which is, I mean, 1182 00:58:01,765 --> 00:58:03,575 what a wonderful place to film movies. 1183 00:58:03,835 --> 00:58:06,455 And I did too there. And the Italians are awesome. 1184 00:58:07,175 --> 00:58:10,855 I mean, I got to know Rome as well as LA or New York. 1185 00:58:11,055 --> 00:58:12,815 I loved Rome, just fantastic. 1186 00:58:13,035 --> 00:58:15,895 But I missed virtually the whole campaign. 1187 00:58:16,215 --> 00:58:19,095 I came back, I was 10 or 11 days 1188 00:58:19,155 --> 00:58:22,255 before that much contested election. 1189 00:58:22,715 --> 00:58:26,615 And so sadly short of a bumper sticker on my car, 1190 00:58:26,615 --> 00:58:28,775 and a little bit, I, I wasn't able to contribute 1191 00:58:28,805 --> 00:58:31,375 what I wanted to do for the Gore campaign. 1192 00:58:32,275 --> 00:58:33,495 Of course, we know what happened there, 1193 00:58:33,495 --> 00:58:37,375 and it, you could easily say how that was stolen 1194 00:58:37,555 --> 00:58:42,295 by the Supreme Court, by one vote, set the stage for 1195 00:58:43,745 --> 00:58:47,595 what's happened in the subsequent 20 plus years. 1196 00:58:48,375 --> 00:58:52,435 But there got to a point where I was getting a little older, 1197 00:58:52,775 --> 00:58:56,875 and I loved the volunteer work, and it was really good. 1198 00:58:57,215 --> 00:58:59,795 But I said, you know, you're older now. 1199 00:58:59,985 --> 00:59:01,475 It's time to get paid for your work. 1200 00:59:01,615 --> 00:59:06,515 And so I had a, an opportunity to run 1201 00:59:06,975 --> 00:59:09,755 as a paid person on a limited basis, 1202 00:59:09,775 --> 00:59:13,275 but run the John Kerry Presidential headquarters in Santa 1203 00:59:13,275 --> 00:59:15,755 Monica, which was a big consortium of clubs. 1204 00:59:16,995 --> 00:59:19,255 And, um, it was a real pivot point for me 1205 00:59:19,255 --> 00:59:20,975 because I had, you know, I, 1206 00:59:20,995 --> 00:59:24,435 I believe John Kerry was a, a good man. 1207 00:59:24,735 --> 00:59:25,995 He was a hero. 1208 00:59:26,135 --> 00:59:29,035 He had shrapnel in his body, purple Heart, silver star, 1209 00:59:29,395 --> 00:59:32,395 whatever, you know, he was on those boats. 1210 00:59:32,495 --> 00:59:37,425 And, and the other side, swift boated him by a, a guy who 1211 00:59:38,815 --> 00:59:43,595 didn't serve his country, dodged the military, lost 1212 00:59:43,615 --> 00:59:45,395 by half a million votes before that. 1213 00:59:45,595 --> 00:59:46,875 'cause Al Gore got half a million votes. 1214 00:59:46,935 --> 00:59:49,355 So John Kerry seemed like the right man, 1215 00:59:50,055 --> 00:59:52,395 but, you know, we didn't, that didn't work out. 1216 00:59:52,455 --> 00:59:54,955 But for me, it was my entree into 1217 00:59:55,955 --> 00:59:57,455 deeper into politics. 1218 00:59:57,475 --> 00:59:59,855 But it came at a pivot point. 1219 01:00:00,095 --> 01:00:03,815 'cause I was offered, right at that time, two films. 1220 01:00:04,635 --> 01:00:08,655 One, uh, of, of Vlad the Impaler film to be shot in Romania. 1221 01:00:09,395 --> 01:00:12,655 And another action picture, similar to one 1222 01:00:12,655 --> 01:00:14,295 of my other favorite movies called Death Ring. 1223 01:00:14,795 --> 01:00:16,935 Um, death Ring probably would be one 1224 01:00:16,935 --> 01:00:19,455 of my top three favorite films that I produced. 1225 01:00:19,995 --> 01:00:22,295 Um, just for the, the enjoyment. 1226 01:00:22,295 --> 01:00:24,735 And I'm not saying it's like a classic cinema, 1227 01:00:24,875 --> 01:00:26,135 it was just a hell of a good ride. 1228 01:00:26,715 --> 01:00:28,135 So I turned those two films down 1229 01:00:28,135 --> 01:00:30,015 because I didn't wanna lose the opportunity to work 1230 01:00:30,325 --> 01:00:32,335 with the Democrats and with Kerry. 1231 01:00:32,555 --> 01:00:35,855 So the idea at that point of spending two 1232 01:00:36,075 --> 01:00:39,575 and a half months in Romania doing a, 1233 01:00:40,335 --> 01:00:42,135 a lead, it just, it didn't, 1234 01:00:42,595 --> 01:00:44,735 so maybe it would've been different if someone said, Hey, 1235 01:00:44,755 --> 01:00:47,575 you know, you're going to Paris, or you're going to London, 1236 01:00:48,075 --> 01:00:49,095 or, or back to, 1237 01:00:49,575 --> 01:00:51,495 - Although Romania's beautiful, I've been 1238 01:00:51,495 --> 01:00:53,415 to Romania, it's gorgeous. Well, this 1239 01:00:53,415 --> 01:00:56,615 - Was oh four Romania, maybe it wasn't quite, 1240 01:00:56,845 --> 01:00:59,935 were they still earlier in the throes of communism? 1241 01:01:00,065 --> 01:01:04,795 Maybe they, 'cause my research showed that they were still, 1242 01:01:05,695 --> 01:01:07,115 at least equipment wise 1243 01:01:07,295 --> 01:01:10,355 and crew wise, still very much a third world country. 1244 01:01:10,985 --> 01:01:12,195 That was, that was that. 1245 01:01:12,255 --> 01:01:16,675 And, you know, so I, I worked, I ran the, uh, 1246 01:01:17,915 --> 01:01:21,685 both Obama headquarters, which was an amazing thrill. 1247 01:01:22,305 --> 01:01:25,325 We had, uh, an enormously successful one on ninth 1248 01:01:25,325 --> 01:01:28,405 and Wilshire, and even more successful one, uh, 1249 01:01:28,405 --> 01:01:30,765 for Obama 12 on the Promenade. That was 1250 01:01:30,765 --> 01:01:32,045 - Such an incredible time. 1251 01:01:32,845 --> 01:01:34,085 - Unbelievable. And I, I mean, 1252 01:01:34,265 --> 01:01:36,405 it feels longer ago than it actually was. 1253 01:01:37,625 --> 01:01:39,325 Um, but it was great. 1254 01:01:39,485 --> 01:01:43,685 I even won a Democrat of the Year award from, for the city 1255 01:01:43,685 --> 01:01:45,885 of LA for my work on Obama oh eight. 1256 01:01:46,305 --> 01:01:48,285 Uh, we had a visit from Valerie Jarret, 1257 01:01:48,435 --> 01:01:51,445 president Obama's right hand advisor who came 1258 01:01:51,445 --> 01:01:53,165 to the Obama 12 headquarters. 1259 01:01:53,745 --> 01:01:56,485 She was wonderful. And she's still working with the Obamas. 1260 01:01:56,715 --> 01:01:57,725 That was very exciting. 1261 01:01:58,235 --> 01:02:00,965 Hillary, I, you know, we had Hillary on Montana 1262 01:02:00,985 --> 01:02:03,405 and Santa Monica, that headquarters, uh, we had people 1263 01:02:04,095 --> 01:02:07,205 phone banking, text banking, like literally on the streets. 1264 01:02:07,305 --> 01:02:12,025 And we won't go into, you know, the whole Hillary 1265 01:02:12,825 --> 01:02:14,345 situation, what happened and all that. 1266 01:02:14,555 --> 01:02:16,065 Maybe for another time, I guess. 1267 01:02:16,125 --> 01:02:20,205 But there's a case where she won by almost 3 million votes. 1268 01:02:20,445 --> 01:02:21,805 I mean, gore won by half a million. 1269 01:02:21,805 --> 01:02:22,965 Hillary won by 3 million. 1270 01:02:23,065 --> 01:02:25,845 And I hope though, I don't think it's gonna happen, 1271 01:02:25,875 --> 01:02:28,325 that I'm alive to see a one person, 1272 01:02:28,425 --> 01:02:29,445 one vote in this country. 1273 01:02:30,065 --> 01:02:32,845 Um, I understand what our forefathers did, why they did it. 1274 01:02:33,145 --> 01:02:35,045 The true democracy is true. 1275 01:02:35,045 --> 01:02:36,525 Democracy is one person, one vote. 1276 01:02:36,585 --> 01:02:39,845 And truthfully, if you're a Democrat in Mississippi 1277 01:02:40,345 --> 01:02:44,325 or you're a Republican in California 1278 01:02:44,505 --> 01:02:45,925 and you're want, you want your vote 1279 01:02:45,925 --> 01:02:47,405 to be counted the way our system is 1280 01:02:47,425 --> 01:02:49,005 now, it, it doesn't matter. 1281 01:02:49,665 --> 01:02:51,925 And it should matter. I'm very passionate about that. 1282 01:02:52,125 --> 01:02:55,365 'cause it, I I, I think if we had true one person, 1283 01:02:55,705 --> 01:02:59,445 one vote democracy, uh, you, you know, 1284 01:02:59,465 --> 01:03:01,605 we wouldn't have had a lot of things. 1285 01:03:01,705 --> 01:03:04,325 You, you could even argue we wouldn't have had nine 11. 1286 01:03:05,125 --> 01:03:09,285 'cause Bush was shucking hay in Crawford, not reasoning, 1287 01:03:09,285 --> 01:03:11,085 reading the presidential briefings properly. 1288 01:03:11,545 --> 01:03:14,645 It was under his watch that nine 11 happened. 1289 01:03:14,685 --> 01:03:15,885 He'd been president for eight months. 1290 01:03:16,305 --> 01:03:18,045 And I think Gore would've been different. 1291 01:03:18,105 --> 01:03:19,925 The environment certainly would've been different. 1292 01:03:20,685 --> 01:03:22,965 I think the response to Katrina would've been different. 1293 01:03:23,585 --> 01:03:25,205 Uh, and we could just go on 1294 01:03:25,205 --> 01:03:28,565 and on about one person, one vote 1295 01:03:28,565 --> 01:03:33,165 and how it would've changed the last 23, 24 years. 1296 01:03:33,545 --> 01:03:34,765 But that's another conversation. 1297 01:03:34,785 --> 01:03:38,725 But anyway, so work-wise, I then was working, 1298 01:03:39,105 --> 01:03:40,205 uh, with the Miller Group. 1299 01:03:40,305 --> 01:03:43,605 My wife's that, she a company she founded in 1990 1300 01:03:44,185 --> 01:03:47,045 and brought a lot of production to the company, 1301 01:03:47,145 --> 01:03:48,165 to the ad agency. 1302 01:03:48,865 --> 01:03:50,325 Um, that's why I was in Chicago. 1303 01:03:50,905 --> 01:03:55,725 We were doing two web television shows for a client of ours, 1304 01:03:56,095 --> 01:03:57,885 which I directed, which gets back 1305 01:03:57,885 --> 01:04:01,645 to my news background directing live multi-camera shows. 1306 01:04:01,705 --> 01:04:04,365 So I dusted that off my headsets and all that. 1307 01:04:04,665 --> 01:04:07,685 So it was fun to be back doing that for the Miller Group. 1308 01:04:08,185 --> 01:04:10,885 We just finished, literally just finished shooting our third 1309 01:04:10,885 --> 01:04:12,645 season called Northbound. 1310 01:04:12,835 --> 01:04:14,565 It's, uh, a web series 1311 01:04:15,275 --> 01:04:17,965 that has garnered over a million views, 1312 01:04:18,905 --> 01:04:20,285 uh, northbound. 1313 01:04:20,465 --> 01:04:23,285 The third season that we're in post on, uh, 1314 01:04:23,435 --> 01:04:24,565 will be our final season. 1315 01:04:25,105 --> 01:04:26,125 Uh, we've done well with it. 1316 01:04:26,125 --> 01:04:30,205 It's on a platform called Seek a tv. I'm the EP of that. 1317 01:04:30,985 --> 01:04:32,405 And that, that's been a lot of fun. 1318 01:04:32,405 --> 01:04:34,965 We shoot the whole thing in the upper peninsula of Michigan 1319 01:04:35,655 --> 01:04:37,125 - Where they stick up their hand and 1320 01:04:37,445 --> 01:04:38,445 - they flick. 1321 01:04:38,445 --> 01:04:38,885 They're up there. That's right. 1322 01:04:39,025 --> 01:04:42,085 And it's, um, they, it's really, people think of Michigan 1323 01:04:42,225 --> 01:04:44,445 and they think of Detroit, of course, grand Rapids, 1324 01:04:44,595 --> 01:04:48,645 Kalamazoo, but the up is far away from that. 1325 01:04:49,005 --> 01:04:51,125 I mean, they're actually, when we were flying in talent from 1326 01:04:51,125 --> 01:04:53,845 New York and la, we didn't fly them into Detroit. 1327 01:04:54,265 --> 01:04:57,125 We flew them in usually to Green Bay or Madison 1328 01:04:57,475 --> 01:05:01,685 because they're a closer drive to Wisconsin and the up. 1329 01:05:02,265 --> 01:05:03,445 But that's been a fun project 1330 01:05:03,545 --> 01:05:07,765 and we have a, a feature film we wanna make 1331 01:05:08,415 --> 01:05:10,445 based on northbound called North Star. 1332 01:05:10,505 --> 01:05:13,975 So we'll see where that goes. And so that's been fun. 1333 01:05:14,035 --> 01:05:17,405 And you know, uh, if you look at the Miller Group 1334 01:05:17,955 --> 01:05:21,765 YouTube page, there's around 200 videos. 1335 01:05:22,485 --> 01:05:26,845 I think probably 95% of them I either produced 1336 01:05:27,025 --> 01:05:29,285 or directed and or directed. 1337 01:05:29,305 --> 01:05:32,605 So that's been fun having my, you know, 1338 01:05:33,035 --> 01:05:35,605 feeling now in the ad agency world, 1339 01:05:35,865 --> 01:05:38,245 but still a little bit in the production world 1340 01:05:38,345 --> 01:05:39,485 and the political world. 1341 01:05:39,625 --> 01:05:43,925 And so it's a, a multihyphenate hy, is that the term? 1342 01:05:43,945 --> 01:05:48,925 Multihyphenate? Yeah. Yeah. So that's sort of my story. 1343 01:05:49,675 --> 01:05:53,725 - It's a great story and hopefully fingers crossed you keep 1344 01:05:53,725 --> 01:05:55,925 dipping your toes in the political realm 1345 01:05:55,945 --> 01:05:57,205 and as we move forward. 1346 01:05:57,915 --> 01:05:59,325 - Well that's, that's the idea. 1347 01:05:59,565 --> 01:06:03,485 I mean, we're, you know, as we talked a little bit, I am, 1348 01:06:03,545 --> 01:06:08,275 uh, in deep discussion to do some of the same things I did 1349 01:06:08,335 --> 01:06:12,475 for Hillary, both Obama's, John Kerry for President Biden. 1350 01:06:13,255 --> 01:06:15,115 So hopefully we'll see what happens. 1351 01:06:15,975 --> 01:06:18,195 - How can people find you if they want, uh, 1352 01:06:18,195 --> 01:06:20,755 other than the Miller Group obviously is a, is a place 1353 01:06:20,755 --> 01:06:22,275 to poke around, but is there, yeah, 1354 01:06:22,275 --> 01:06:25,315 - I mean, it's, miller group.com is the agency's website. 1355 01:06:25,335 --> 01:06:28,235 We do great work. I'm proud of, uh, the output. 1356 01:06:28,345 --> 01:06:32,235 It's a full service ad agency, marketing production. 1357 01:06:32,515 --> 01:06:33,915 I mean, you name it, we can do it. 1358 01:06:34,475 --> 01:06:37,555 LinkedIn, obviously that's, everyone uses LinkedIn. 1359 01:06:38,175 --> 01:06:40,715 Um, maybe some people overuse it. I don't know. 1360 01:06:40,855 --> 01:06:42,675 But that's the, the resource. 1361 01:06:42,675 --> 01:06:43,795 - Are you on Instagram or anything? 1362 01:06:44,215 --> 01:06:46,995 - I'm not. I've kept off a lot of the, so I'm not a 1363 01:06:47,755 --> 01:06:49,475 Facebook guy either, even though a lot 1364 01:06:49,475 --> 01:06:51,755 of my high school chums like, ha, you know, 1365 01:06:51,755 --> 01:06:54,355 we got reunions coming up, you should go on Facebook. 1366 01:06:54,475 --> 01:06:57,395 I go, I don't know. I I find 1367 01:06:57,395 --> 01:06:58,475 - You're not missing anything. 1368 01:06:58,475 --> 01:06:59,475 Trust me. Well, 1369 01:07:00,355 --> 01:07:01,355 - I trust you. 1370 01:07:01,355 --> 01:07:04,755 And other people would say, oh, you know, but it's okay. 1371 01:07:04,975 --> 01:07:07,115 You know, I, I, I know what's going on 1372 01:07:07,115 --> 01:07:08,915 with my high school classmates 1373 01:07:09,055 --> 01:07:10,395 as much as I really need to know. 1374 01:07:10,455 --> 01:07:13,035 But you know what, it becomes Susan like a bandwidth 1375 01:07:13,035 --> 01:07:14,355 thing every day. 1376 01:07:14,505 --> 01:07:19,175 There's so much to do, so many people to connect with, speak 1377 01:07:19,195 --> 01:07:22,575 to, whether it's Miller Group, production, politics, 1378 01:07:22,925 --> 01:07:25,735 even down to, I've been asked again last night. 1379 01:07:25,865 --> 01:07:27,695 Kathy was one of 'em. 1380 01:07:27,795 --> 01:07:30,735 Please rejoin our homeowners association board. 1381 01:07:30,815 --> 01:07:35,095 I was, uh, I mean, I I like Kathy so much, 1382 01:07:35,235 --> 01:07:38,735 but I just can't, I, I can't, I don't have that 1383 01:07:39,115 --> 01:07:42,135 to be back on the homeowners board, which I served there 1384 01:07:42,235 --> 01:07:44,855 for a number of years, but it's like, so that's 1385 01:07:44,895 --> 01:07:46,695 - A whole other animal. The HOA 1386 01:07:46,955 --> 01:07:47,955 - Oh my. 1387 01:07:47,955 --> 01:07:48,615 Have you experienced those things? 1388 01:07:48,995 --> 01:07:51,295 - No, but I have friends who have, and it's just, 1389 01:07:51,525 --> 01:07:53,655 - It's, it's beyond, it's beyond the thought. It's 1390 01:07:53,655 --> 01:07:54,655 - Beyond, yeah. 1391 01:07:54,655 --> 01:07:57,255 - , I mean, you, you wanna get into a nitpicky world 1392 01:07:57,385 --> 01:08:00,015 about landscape and light bulbs 1393 01:08:00,075 --> 01:08:04,535 and, you know, color of paint for the, oh, 1394 01:08:04,805 --> 01:08:07,415 it's just, you know, another world. 1395 01:08:07,475 --> 01:08:09,455 And I, I lived that, like I said, for a number of years. 1396 01:08:09,475 --> 01:08:11,255 And finally I said, I've got other things. 1397 01:08:12,085 --> 01:08:15,485 I'll attend some meetings. But I said to Kathy, thank you. 1398 01:08:16,005 --> 01:08:17,925 I know you want me back on the, I can't do it. 1399 01:08:18,355 --> 01:08:19,365 - Yeah, . 1400 01:08:19,795 --> 01:08:22,885 Well, Gary, I really appreciate your time and your stories. 1401 01:08:23,185 --> 01:08:26,085 I'm super excited to talk to your dad in a couple weeks. 1402 01:08:26,585 --> 01:08:28,245 - No, thank you. I mean, I'm super excited 1403 01:08:28,245 --> 01:08:30,805 and I know my dad's really pumped about this 1404 01:08:30,905 --> 01:08:32,605 and I look forward to that. 1405 01:08:32,605 --> 01:08:34,645 But thank you. I mean, this has been great. 1406 01:08:34,825 --> 01:08:37,525 You're great at what you do. You make it easy. 1407 01:08:37,625 --> 01:08:39,085 You make the flow happen, and 1408 01:08:39,985 --> 01:08:40,985 - I appreciate that. 1409 01:08:41,235 --> 01:08:42,505 - Thank you. Appreciate that. 1410 01:08:42,965 --> 01:08:46,385 And I'm sure we'll see each other, whether it's John 1411 01:08:46,385 --> 01:08:49,885 and Kathy's or somewhere else soon. I hope so. 1412 01:08:50,505 --> 01:08:53,165 - Oh yeah. Well, it's a, it's a pretty small world 1413 01:08:53,165 --> 01:08:55,285 around here, so I'll definitely be seeing you. 1414 01:08:55,855 --> 01:09:00,285 Thank you for listening everybody, and thank you Gary again. 1415 01:09:00,495 --> 01:09:03,645 - Thank you, Susan, so much appreciated. We'll see you soon. 1416 01:09:04,145 --> 01:09:07,885 - Bye. Rate review 1417 01:09:07,885 --> 01:09:11,205 and subscribe to, Hey, human Podcast on iTunes, Spotify, 1418 01:09:11,585 --> 01:09:13,405 iHeart, wherever you get your podcasts. 1419 01:09:13,665 --> 01:09:14,805 Thanks. Bye.