1 00:00:08,145 --> 00:00:08,685 - Hey, humans. 2 00:00:08,935 --> 00:00:10,965 How's it going? Susan Ruth here. 3 00:00:11,225 --> 00:00:13,285 Thanks for listening to another episode 4 00:00:13,785 --> 00:00:14,965 of Hey Human Podcast. 5 00:00:16,155 --> 00:00:18,285 This is episode 391, 6 00:00:18,945 --> 00:00:22,085 and my guest is Will Harris of White Oak Pastures. 7 00:00:22,715 --> 00:00:25,325 Will is a fourth generation cattleman farmer 8 00:00:25,505 --> 00:00:27,125 who tends the same land 9 00:00:27,125 --> 00:00:30,245 that his great-grandfather settled in 1866, 10 00:00:30,925 --> 00:00:33,205 although Will was trained in industrial farming methods 11 00:00:33,505 --> 00:00:36,045 as his father had been post World War ii. 12 00:00:37,155 --> 00:00:40,285 Will was seeing the damage being done by pesticides, 13 00:00:40,455 --> 00:00:42,845 herbicides, hormones, and antibiotics, 14 00:00:42,905 --> 00:00:44,685 and made a huge shift 15 00:00:44,825 --> 00:00:47,925 to become a leader in humane animal husbandry 16 00:00:48,465 --> 00:00:50,485 and environmental sustainability. 17 00:00:50,485 --> 00:00:53,045 Knowing the importance of working in healthy partnership 18 00:00:53,045 --> 00:00:56,645 with the land, we had a fascinating conversation about 19 00:00:56,675 --> 00:00:57,725 sustainable farming 20 00:00:57,825 --> 00:01:00,925 and cattle raising methods, the difference between dirt 21 00:01:00,945 --> 00:01:05,085 and soil, the rural community impact of family farming, 22 00:01:05,505 --> 00:01:07,285 and what it means to leave 23 00:01:07,285 --> 00:01:09,285 behind something better than you find it 24 00:01:09,385 --> 00:01:10,565 for generations to come. 25 00:01:11,235 --> 00:01:13,045 I've really enjoyed this conversation. 26 00:01:13,995 --> 00:01:15,405 He's a fascinating man, 27 00:01:15,705 --> 00:01:19,525 and he really cares about what he's doing, 28 00:01:20,025 --> 00:01:22,205 and he cares about what people put in their bodies, 29 00:01:23,105 --> 00:01:25,205 and he caress about the land 30 00:01:25,585 --> 00:01:30,085 and understands what an honor it is to till that soil and, 31 00:01:30,425 --> 00:01:34,045 and raise animals and, and crops. 32 00:01:34,225 --> 00:01:36,765 And he, uh, he gets it, 33 00:01:36,825 --> 00:01:39,725 you know, check out. 34 00:01:39,745 --> 00:01:41,565 Hey, human podcast for links 35 00:01:41,565 --> 00:01:43,605 and to learn more about my guests in the show, 36 00:01:44,215 --> 00:01:45,925 check out Susan ruth.com. 37 00:01:46,025 --> 00:01:47,085 To learn more about me 38 00:01:47,105 --> 00:01:50,485 and my other artistic endeavors, please follow Susan Ruth 39 00:01:50,945 --> 00:01:53,485 and hey, human podcast on social media. 40 00:01:54,275 --> 00:01:57,565 Find my albums on Spotify, apple Music, Amazon music, 41 00:01:57,705 --> 00:02:00,885 or wherever you get your music rate review 42 00:02:00,985 --> 00:02:04,165 and subscribe to, Hey, human podcast on iTunes 43 00:02:04,165 --> 00:02:06,205 or wherever you get your podcasts. 44 00:02:06,705 --> 00:02:08,525 All right, thank you for listening. 45 00:02:09,105 --> 00:02:13,565 Be well, be kind, plant seeds and be love. 46 00:02:14,195 --> 00:02:18,845 Here we go. Will Harris, welcome to Hey, human. 47 00:02:19,775 --> 00:02:21,045 - Thank you for having me. Susan, 48 00:02:21,865 --> 00:02:25,045 - You're in Georgia, - Lofton, Georgia. 49 00:02:25,765 --> 00:02:27,565 - I learned about you through my friend Do 50 00:02:27,585 --> 00:02:29,845 who sent me a video of you being interviewed 51 00:02:29,845 --> 00:02:34,325 for a news program, and I, I'm 52 00:02:34,325 --> 00:02:36,565 so interested in this field, so I'm, 53 00:02:36,645 --> 00:02:37,925 I really appreciate you being here. 54 00:02:38,375 --> 00:02:41,805 Let's just jump in. You are a several generation, 55 00:02:41,805 --> 00:02:45,605 fourth generation farmer cattle person, or 56 00:02:45,605 --> 00:02:47,885 - Do you, - Do you consider yourself a 57 00:02:47,885 --> 00:02:49,045 farmer or a cattle man? 58 00:02:49,105 --> 00:02:50,645 How does, is there a delineation 59 00:02:50,665 --> 00:02:51,725 or is it the same thing? Yeah, 60 00:02:51,805 --> 00:02:53,645 - I, I, I really don't make that distinction. 61 00:02:53,925 --> 00:02:56,485 I am a farmer and, um, I previous, well, 62 00:02:56,485 --> 00:02:57,725 I guess I'm, I guess I'm a farmer. 63 00:02:58,165 --> 00:03:00,685 Previously I was exclusively a cattleman. 64 00:03:01,565 --> 00:03:03,715 Today we raise a lot of different species, 65 00:03:04,215 --> 00:03:06,955 but I draw no real distinction between the two. 66 00:03:07,875 --> 00:03:11,035 I am the fourth generation of my family on this farm. 67 00:03:12,535 --> 00:03:15,795 My great-grandfather came here in 1866 68 00:03:16,975 --> 00:03:19,915 and, uh, farm the land followed by his son. 69 00:03:20,055 --> 00:03:24,355 My grandfather followed by his son, my dad followed by me. 70 00:03:25,295 --> 00:03:28,195 And, uh, I am being followed by two daughters 71 00:03:28,575 --> 00:03:30,835 and their spouses, and those two 72 00:03:31,035 --> 00:03:32,235 daughters have five children. 73 00:03:32,415 --> 00:03:34,675 So that would be the sixth generation on the farm. 74 00:03:36,145 --> 00:03:40,165 And I guess the, uh, what, what interests me most 75 00:03:40,165 --> 00:03:42,925 and what I was, uh, previously telling you is 76 00:03:42,925 --> 00:03:45,205 that the first two generations of my family, 77 00:03:45,385 --> 00:03:46,965 my great-grandfather and grandfather 78 00:03:48,345 --> 00:03:51,885 farmed the land in a way that would've been good 79 00:03:51,905 --> 00:03:55,445 for the land, good for the community, good for the animals. 80 00:03:56,015 --> 00:04:00,505 There was a lot of, uh, uh, it was not a a, 81 00:04:01,065 --> 00:04:02,545 a technical industry. 82 00:04:02,805 --> 00:04:04,545 It was more of a way of life 83 00:04:05,285 --> 00:04:09,185 and very, very historical kind of approach 84 00:04:09,405 --> 00:04:10,705 to producing food. 85 00:04:12,425 --> 00:04:15,525 My dad took over the farm after World War ii. 86 00:04:15,625 --> 00:04:18,605 He was born in 1920. He was, uh, after World War ii. 87 00:04:18,605 --> 00:04:22,485 He took over the farm and he changed it. 88 00:04:22,905 --> 00:04:26,245 And, and I'm glad he did because agriculture was changing, 89 00:04:26,425 --> 00:04:27,965 and had he not, we probably 90 00:04:27,965 --> 00:04:29,045 wouldn't have had a farm anymore. 91 00:04:29,625 --> 00:04:31,365 - It was my understanding that the government 92 00:04:31,365 --> 00:04:36,205 after World War II actually sent farmers to college 93 00:04:36,385 --> 00:04:38,525 to learn a specific kind of farming, 94 00:04:38,715 --> 00:04:41,165 this new industrial way of doing things. 95 00:04:42,015 --> 00:04:43,285 - There, there was a lot of that, 96 00:04:43,425 --> 00:04:45,285 and that, that was heavily contributory. 97 00:04:46,065 --> 00:04:47,965 And also the, the young men that, uh, 98 00:04:49,995 --> 00:04:51,565 quit plowing the mule 99 00:04:51,705 --> 00:04:55,915 and went to Europe to operate tanks, you know, were, 100 00:04:56,255 --> 00:04:57,275 uh, changed. 101 00:04:57,645 --> 00:04:59,195 Their, their approach was changed. 102 00:04:59,335 --> 00:05:01,075 We could talk about it all day long. 103 00:05:01,735 --> 00:05:03,955 And the other thing that that happened, this is kind 104 00:05:03,955 --> 00:05:07,515 of along those lines, is so many of the tools 105 00:05:07,695 --> 00:05:11,475 of the war effort were converted into 106 00:05:11,955 --> 00:05:13,715 agricultural inputs. 107 00:05:14,055 --> 00:05:16,795 For instance, munitions plants 108 00:05:18,345 --> 00:05:21,125 became fertilizer, fertilizer factories. 109 00:05:21,475 --> 00:05:25,205 They, they, uh, the ni the nitrate, uh, component 110 00:05:25,205 --> 00:05:29,165 of the fertilizer of the bombs could be converted 111 00:05:29,165 --> 00:05:30,845 to make plant food out of, you know, 112 00:05:30,845 --> 00:05:34,605 ammoniated fertilizer was invented like in 1870 something, 113 00:05:35,465 --> 00:05:36,565 but it was so expensive. 114 00:05:36,595 --> 00:05:37,845 Very few people used it. 115 00:05:38,305 --> 00:05:40,485 But post World War ii, it became very cheap 116 00:05:40,875 --> 00:05:42,325 because the infrastructure 117 00:05:42,425 --> 00:05:44,885 for all the explosives manufacturing had been built. 118 00:05:45,745 --> 00:05:47,205 So you started making cheap product. 119 00:05:47,705 --> 00:05:50,485 So, you know, the guys that were, uh, 120 00:05:50,745 --> 00:05:54,205 had plowed mules learned how to operate tanks, 121 00:05:54,385 --> 00:05:56,045 and when they came home, they wanted tractors. 122 00:05:56,545 --> 00:05:58,605 So yeah, we can talk a lot. 123 00:05:58,705 --> 00:06:01,525 You know, the, uh, the first pesticides were actually 124 00:06:02,075 --> 00:06:04,965 came from nerve gas chemistry from the war . 125 00:06:05,025 --> 00:06:07,205 So just a, a lot of things 126 00:06:07,595 --> 00:06:10,085 that went into the war hel were converted, 127 00:06:11,015 --> 00:06:12,915 and course Europe was starving. 128 00:06:12,965 --> 00:06:14,915 There was a big market for food. 129 00:06:15,775 --> 00:06:18,875 It was kind of a sweet spot in agriculture 130 00:06:19,495 --> 00:06:22,995 and, uh, uh, well, a sweet spot to go wrong maybe. 131 00:06:23,095 --> 00:06:25,995 But still, it was, it was a rife for change. 132 00:06:27,205 --> 00:06:28,705 And my dad was part of that, 133 00:06:29,045 --> 00:06:30,265 and he was part of the leadership, 134 00:06:30,685 --> 00:06:34,745 and he became a monocultural cattleman instead of raising 135 00:06:35,705 --> 00:06:38,265 a lot of different species, like my great-grandfather 136 00:06:38,265 --> 00:06:39,385 and grandfather had, 137 00:06:39,405 --> 00:06:40,465 and like I do today, 138 00:06:41,565 --> 00:06:44,225 he became a specialist in raising cattle 139 00:06:44,405 --> 00:06:45,665 for the industrial market. 140 00:06:46,845 --> 00:06:49,425 And, and he was good at it and made money doing it, 141 00:06:50,045 --> 00:06:51,825 and took a lot of pride in the fact 142 00:06:51,825 --> 00:06:53,065 that he was a specialist. 143 00:06:53,685 --> 00:06:56,665 And he and I, I get that, I understand it, 144 00:06:58,425 --> 00:07:00,685 but he ran the farm that way successfully 145 00:07:00,685 --> 00:07:01,725 with his whole career. 146 00:07:03,025 --> 00:07:05,485 And I never, as a child, I never wanted 147 00:07:05,485 --> 00:07:07,485 to do anything except come back 148 00:07:07,545 --> 00:07:11,405 and run the farm The way my dad did that was, that was, i, 149 00:07:11,485 --> 00:07:13,245 I, I never liked direction. 150 00:07:13,325 --> 00:07:16,605 I knew exactly what I wanted to do, and I did it. 151 00:07:16,905 --> 00:07:19,445 Uh, he insisted I go to college. He, he did. 152 00:07:19,465 --> 00:07:21,605 My dad did not want me to come back and run the farm. 153 00:07:21,905 --> 00:07:26,125 He thought that his friends who left the farm 154 00:07:26,185 --> 00:07:30,125 and got paying jobs in the city were financially better 155 00:07:30,185 --> 00:07:31,245 off than he was. 156 00:07:32,395 --> 00:07:34,135 In retrospect, I don't think that's true. 157 00:07:34,335 --> 00:07:38,415 I think he probably as assimilated more wealth than them. 158 00:07:38,525 --> 00:07:40,335 They had more liquidity than he did. 159 00:07:42,425 --> 00:07:44,285 Anyway, I, I, I wasn't interested in that. 160 00:07:44,365 --> 00:07:46,285 I wanted to run the farm. I went to college 161 00:07:46,285 --> 00:07:47,445 because he made me, 162 00:07:47,665 --> 00:07:51,045 but I majored in animal, uh, science, 163 00:07:51,895 --> 00:07:53,885 which is contrary to what he wanted me to do. 164 00:07:54,465 --> 00:07:57,165 Uh, I mentioned to you earlier that, uh, 165 00:07:57,735 --> 00:08:00,085 about the time I got to the University of Georgia, 166 00:08:00,715 --> 00:08:02,605 they changed the name from animal 167 00:08:02,635 --> 00:08:04,285 husbandry to animal science. 168 00:08:05,345 --> 00:08:07,405 And it was more than just a name change. 169 00:08:07,585 --> 00:08:10,005 Animal husbandry was with this, the teaching, 170 00:08:10,595 --> 00:08:12,965 very cyclical production model. 171 00:08:13,945 --> 00:08:16,965 Animal science is a very linear production model, 172 00:08:18,055 --> 00:08:19,315 and it's truly what we were doing. 173 00:08:19,375 --> 00:08:21,315 You know, we were raising calves 174 00:08:21,375 --> 00:08:23,315 for the industrial feedlot market. 175 00:08:23,895 --> 00:08:25,435 You know, we had a lot of mama cows. 176 00:08:25,455 --> 00:08:26,715 We had a lot of baby calves. 177 00:08:26,735 --> 00:08:29,755 We shipped them to the West Midwest to feed 178 00:08:30,495 --> 00:08:31,495 - At that point. 179 00:08:31,495 --> 00:08:34,315 Was the only thing that the farm was doing was then cattle, 180 00:08:34,375 --> 00:08:35,835 or were you also growing crop? 181 00:08:36,735 --> 00:08:39,075 - No, we, uh, we raised some feed for the cattle, 182 00:08:39,135 --> 00:08:40,355 but it was a cattle farm. 183 00:08:40,895 --> 00:08:43,115 And it was, again, it was financially successful. 184 00:08:43,115 --> 00:08:44,915 We weren't rich people, but we had no debt 185 00:08:45,135 --> 00:08:46,755 and money made every year. 186 00:08:47,575 --> 00:08:51,595 Uh, I ran the farm that way when I took it over and, 187 00:08:51,815 --> 00:08:52,875 and I went back and looked. 188 00:08:53,035 --> 00:08:55,285 I act, I, I had to go back to, to look, 189 00:08:55,385 --> 00:08:57,005 but I actually made money every year. 190 00:08:57,245 --> 00:09:00,525 I never lost money when I was managing the farm industrially 191 00:09:01,755 --> 00:09:02,775 in the mid nineties. 192 00:09:03,055 --> 00:09:06,135 I, uh, became disillusioned with that 193 00:09:06,595 --> 00:09:10,055 and changed the way I run the farm, started changing it, 194 00:09:10,915 --> 00:09:15,615 and, and quit making, uh, I to make as much money. 195 00:09:15,995 --> 00:09:19,935 And actually had some losing years during the transition 196 00:09:20,475 --> 00:09:23,855 of moving from the model of the industrial cattle farm, 197 00:09:24,335 --> 00:09:26,175 monocultural cattle farm, to 198 00:09:27,045 --> 00:09:28,615 what we do now, white oak pasture. 199 00:09:29,275 --> 00:09:31,015 - And as you mentioned before, the, 200 00:09:31,355 --> 00:09:34,575 the industrial cattle farm includes things 201 00:09:34,605 --> 00:09:36,255 like the antibiotics. 202 00:09:36,275 --> 00:09:38,575 And can you talk a little bit about that, what that means? 203 00:09:38,925 --> 00:09:42,855 - Yeah. We use all the tools in running a monoculture, 204 00:09:43,285 --> 00:09:45,815 just 1, 1 1 crop. 205 00:09:45,995 --> 00:09:50,335 In this case, cattle, you use a lot of technical tools, 206 00:09:50,955 --> 00:09:55,255 uh, hormone implants, subtherapeutic antibiotics, 207 00:09:55,765 --> 00:10:00,655 to grow the grain, to feed them, use a lot 208 00:10:00,655 --> 00:10:02,135 of chemical fertilizer, a lot 209 00:10:02,135 --> 00:10:04,575 of pesticides, a lot of tillage. 210 00:10:05,715 --> 00:10:07,615 And, and it, it worked for us. 211 00:10:07,715 --> 00:10:09,455 It was financially rewarding, 212 00:10:09,795 --> 00:10:13,655 but there were huge unintended consequences 213 00:10:14,765 --> 00:10:17,175 that I eventually became aware of, 214 00:10:17,435 --> 00:10:19,295 but was not for a long time. 215 00:10:19,795 --> 00:10:23,805 And, but in the mid nineties, I, I started to become aware 216 00:10:23,805 --> 00:10:25,325 of those consequences and, and then, 217 00:10:25,325 --> 00:10:27,245 and the first thing that that occurred 218 00:10:27,245 --> 00:10:28,565 to me was the animal welfare. 219 00:10:29,385 --> 00:10:33,325 Uh, I, I would've told you that my animal welfare is 220 00:10:33,375 --> 00:10:35,485 above reproach by God. 221 00:10:35,825 --> 00:10:38,935 And I thought it was, but, 222 00:10:39,355 --> 00:10:42,655 but it really was not, you know, I, I believed at that time, 223 00:10:42,895 --> 00:10:44,895 I believed growing up, I think my dad believed, 224 00:10:45,445 --> 00:10:48,775 I've been taught in university, if you keep the animals 225 00:10:49,525 --> 00:10:53,655 well fed, watered in a comfortable temperature range 226 00:10:54,315 --> 00:10:58,075 and don't inflict pain and suffering, you're good to go. 227 00:10:58,215 --> 00:11:01,845 That's good animal welfare, but it's not. 228 00:11:02,355 --> 00:11:04,565 It's, uh, you know, the, they're also, the, 229 00:11:04,715 --> 00:11:07,885 another component is instinctive behavior. 230 00:11:08,905 --> 00:11:12,125 And, you know, cows were born to roam 231 00:11:12,145 --> 00:11:14,805 and graze hogs were born to root 232 00:11:14,865 --> 00:11:18,205 and wallow chickens were born to scratch and peck. 233 00:11:19,145 --> 00:11:21,805 And in the industrial confinement model that, 234 00:11:21,805 --> 00:11:25,365 that we embraced, they, they, they weren't free to do that. 235 00:11:26,685 --> 00:11:29,105 And that, that's, that is not good animal animal welfare. 236 00:11:29,295 --> 00:11:31,905 That is a 24 southern 237 00:11:32,705 --> 00:11:34,345 stressor on the, on the animals. 238 00:11:35,765 --> 00:11:38,785 So I, that was, I started to, uh, 239 00:11:38,985 --> 00:11:40,385 I only had cattle at that time. 240 00:11:40,475 --> 00:11:43,385 Today, we've got a lot of species by the time I only cattle. 241 00:11:45,585 --> 00:11:47,245 So I started grazing them. 242 00:11:47,245 --> 00:11:50,445 Instead of feeding them out of a trough, I ceased 243 00:11:50,445 --> 00:11:54,725 to use all the, uh, pesticides and pharmaceuticals. 244 00:11:55,665 --> 00:11:58,245 And I, I didn't make as much money, 245 00:11:58,425 --> 00:12:00,205 but my animal welfare was better. 246 00:12:00,465 --> 00:12:02,125 And it was, there was a lot better about it. 247 00:12:02,385 --> 00:12:03,445 It was better on the land. 248 00:12:04,905 --> 00:12:09,445 Uh, and as I was assimilating the things I needed 249 00:12:09,445 --> 00:12:13,525 to do differently with animal welfare, uh, it occurred to me 250 00:12:13,555 --> 00:12:17,485 that my, uh, um, treatment 251 00:12:17,485 --> 00:12:18,965 of the land was also bad. 252 00:12:19,105 --> 00:12:22,165 We used a lot of chemical fertilizer, a lot of pesticides, 253 00:12:22,285 --> 00:12:25,845 a lot of tillage, and, and just, it wasn't good. 254 00:12:26,005 --> 00:12:29,765 I, I can remember going out in the field I had 255 00:12:29,825 --> 00:12:32,725 and taking, getting a handful of soil dirt I didn't have 256 00:12:32,725 --> 00:12:36,365 of dirt, actually, and going to the edge of the woods right 257 00:12:36,365 --> 00:12:38,085 beside it, and getting a handful of soil 258 00:12:39,305 --> 00:12:40,445 and looking at the difference. 259 00:12:40,625 --> 00:12:43,205 And, you know, the difference is this had been tilled 260 00:12:43,585 --> 00:12:46,245 and pesticides and chemical fertilizer. 261 00:12:46,265 --> 00:12:50,285 And this was a, a, a living mineral, uh, 262 00:12:51,145 --> 00:12:53,845 medium full of micro microbial lives 263 00:12:54,265 --> 00:12:56,325 and just didn't look like, came from two different planets 264 00:12:57,345 --> 00:12:59,925 and wanted it all to look like the woods. 265 00:13:00,745 --> 00:13:02,725 So I started managing the land differently. 266 00:13:03,985 --> 00:13:07,565 And yeah, I went from making money to not making money, 267 00:13:07,565 --> 00:13:09,565 making anymore making, because that, that, 268 00:13:09,565 --> 00:13:12,965 that transition is very, very hard, you know, to, 269 00:13:13,625 --> 00:13:16,605 but we lived through it, and it got better, 270 00:13:16,945 --> 00:13:18,605 and we became profitable again. 271 00:13:18,945 --> 00:13:20,925 And we've had some ups and downs, 272 00:13:21,185 --> 00:13:23,205 but we, uh, it, it was, it was the thing to do. 273 00:13:23,795 --> 00:13:27,045 - What do you think the moment, the true moment was of 274 00:13:27,045 --> 00:13:30,765 that aha to go, wait a minute, this isn't what I want. 275 00:13:30,945 --> 00:13:33,045 Was it something you noticed about the animals, 276 00:13:33,145 --> 00:13:34,805 or was it just an overall feeling 277 00:13:35,235 --> 00:13:37,565 that something was off even though you 278 00:13:37,565 --> 00:13:38,605 were making all this money? 279 00:13:39,475 --> 00:13:41,765 - Yeah, it was, it was, it was more feeling. Some was off. 280 00:13:41,825 --> 00:13:43,285 The animals looked good. 281 00:13:44,185 --> 00:13:46,365 Now, today, they look a lot different. 282 00:13:46,505 --> 00:13:49,405 You know, they, the truth is that those animals 283 00:13:49,405 --> 00:13:52,885 that I was feeding were unnaturally obese creatures 284 00:13:53,035 --> 00:13:55,005 that would, that would never occur in nature. 285 00:13:55,975 --> 00:13:56,915 But they looked good to me. 286 00:13:57,195 --> 00:13:58,115 'cause that's what I was looking for. 287 00:13:58,455 --> 00:14:01,755 And actually, if you go back in Fort Worth, Texas, 288 00:14:01,785 --> 00:14:05,755 there's a, a hotel hosted cattle shows 289 00:14:06,985 --> 00:14:09,035 from the late 18 hundreds, 290 00:14:09,615 --> 00:14:12,915 and it's got a picture of the grand champion, uh, 291 00:14:13,325 --> 00:14:15,315 steer from every year. 292 00:14:16,185 --> 00:14:17,685 And it's just, it's really interesting 293 00:14:17,685 --> 00:14:20,565 to watch the evolution of how those animals have changed. 294 00:14:21,145 --> 00:14:25,515 Phenotypically, you've gone from being, uh, you know, 295 00:14:26,125 --> 00:14:30,795 short, thick, muscular animals to tall, slender 296 00:14:32,105 --> 00:14:33,555 corn converting animals. 297 00:14:33,775 --> 00:14:36,475 You know, one was designed to convert forage, 298 00:14:36,575 --> 00:14:40,615 the other one had been bred to convert corn cattle, sheep 299 00:14:40,615 --> 00:14:42,055 and goats are ruminants. 300 00:14:42,275 --> 00:14:43,695 Do you know what that is? No. 301 00:14:44,915 --> 00:14:48,655 Uh, cattle ruminants have a, uh, 302 00:14:48,655 --> 00:14:50,215 they don't have acid in their stomach. 303 00:14:50,715 --> 00:14:54,005 pH in their stomach is neutral, zero. 304 00:14:55,145 --> 00:14:59,845 And we, non ruminants people have an acidic, uh, 305 00:15:00,305 --> 00:15:05,035 uh, intentional acidic component that is meant 306 00:15:05,035 --> 00:15:06,155 to break the food down. 307 00:15:06,375 --> 00:15:07,635 So it's, it's complete, 308 00:15:07,655 --> 00:15:10,315 the way it's broken down is completely different. 309 00:15:11,475 --> 00:15:16,455 And, uh, it's just the ruminants are not meant to eat grain. 310 00:15:16,725 --> 00:15:18,975 When that happens, it causes a lot of problems 311 00:15:19,155 --> 00:15:22,015 and a lot of, a lot of digestive problems. 312 00:15:22,195 --> 00:15:25,335 It makes, it's, uh, it makes them incredibly obese. 313 00:15:26,395 --> 00:15:30,485 You know, when, uh, when I was raising, uh, cattle 314 00:15:30,585 --> 00:15:33,805 and corn, I don't have these figures in front of me, 315 00:15:33,905 --> 00:15:37,195 but in, uh, what, 316 00:15:37,595 --> 00:15:39,035 probably 20 months, 317 00:15:39,475 --> 00:15:42,075 I could have an animal weigh in 1300 pounds 318 00:15:42,505 --> 00:15:45,035 with probably three quarters of an inch of back fat. 319 00:15:45,135 --> 00:15:48,755 And that, that was an unnaturally obese creature 320 00:15:49,185 --> 00:15:50,715 that would never occur in nature. 321 00:15:51,075 --> 00:15:54,595 I mean, it's like a, a, a guy that's six feet tall 322 00:15:54,655 --> 00:15:55,755 and weighs four 323 00:15:55,895 --> 00:15:59,955 and 50 pounds, you know, it's just unnaturally obese. 324 00:16:01,455 --> 00:16:03,795 And, and, and, and that, and that's what I did. 325 00:16:04,075 --> 00:16:05,955 I mean, I, I, I was in that business. 326 00:16:06,575 --> 00:16:09,715 Uh, and I'll say this, the, uh, I think, 327 00:16:09,835 --> 00:16:13,035 I think Wikipedia tells us that the, uh, uh, 328 00:16:13,505 --> 00:16:16,755 life expectancy a cow is like 24 years 329 00:16:17,765 --> 00:16:19,295 natural life expectancy. 330 00:16:20,165 --> 00:16:22,555 Those cattle I was feeding into obesity, 331 00:16:23,525 --> 00:16:26,255 they wouldn't have lived to be four or five years old. 332 00:16:26,515 --> 00:16:29,535 You know, they, when you eat those feed like cattle, 333 00:16:30,035 --> 00:16:34,535 you're eating a creature that is dying of all the diseases 334 00:16:34,755 --> 00:16:37,215 of obesity and sedentary lifestyle 335 00:16:37,685 --> 00:16:39,135 that kills most of us anyway. 336 00:16:39,865 --> 00:16:43,485 So today, my cattle, if I didn't swallow 337 00:16:44,185 --> 00:16:45,925 at two years age of age, 338 00:16:46,065 --> 00:16:49,605 or two, three, whatever it is, they would live a, 339 00:16:49,845 --> 00:16:52,205 a normal life expectancy at 20 something years old. 340 00:16:53,235 --> 00:16:56,055 So it's a, there's a lot wrong with what we do. 341 00:16:57,085 --> 00:17:01,535 - I've had grass fed beef versus non grass fed. 342 00:17:01,755 --> 00:17:05,615 And I have to say, the grass fed beef tastes 343 00:17:06,505 --> 00:17:09,935 incredible in comparison through this night and day to me. 344 00:17:10,985 --> 00:17:13,315 - Well, I'm, I'm glad you felt that way. 345 00:17:13,655 --> 00:17:15,715 Uh, and, and I wouldn't never tell anyone 346 00:17:15,715 --> 00:17:16,795 to have that expectation. 347 00:17:16,975 --> 00:17:18,795 I'm glad you, I'm glad you had that, that, that, 348 00:17:19,095 --> 00:17:20,515 uh, experience. 349 00:17:21,835 --> 00:17:23,875 But what I tell people is it is very different. 350 00:17:24,335 --> 00:17:28,475 You know, the, uh, grain, grain feeding that causes this 351 00:17:29,105 --> 00:17:32,435 unnaturally obese creature is very soft. 352 00:17:33,095 --> 00:17:35,435 It, it, it, it, it's soft. It's tender. 353 00:17:35,895 --> 00:17:37,635 We use the word tender soft. 354 00:17:38,215 --> 00:17:43,045 So, and people have that expectation 355 00:17:43,045 --> 00:17:44,085 because that's what they've had. 356 00:17:44,145 --> 00:17:46,245 You know, you go to Ruth's Chris Steakhouse 357 00:17:46,345 --> 00:17:49,445 and it's just, you know, it's an expensive steak, 358 00:17:49,465 --> 00:17:50,805 and it's just incredibly tender. 359 00:17:50,905 --> 00:17:52,885 And then people like it, and that's fine. 360 00:17:53,445 --> 00:17:56,885 I don't dislike it. I've been eating, I've eaten a lot 361 00:17:56,885 --> 00:17:59,045 of finished grain, finished beef in my life, 362 00:17:59,065 --> 00:18:00,285 and it was good to me. 363 00:18:00,825 --> 00:18:03,445 Now I've eaten a lot of grass fed beef, and it's good to me, 364 00:18:03,585 --> 00:18:05,645 but it's different now. 365 00:18:05,905 --> 00:18:09,605 If you, if you're, if it's just, if you're eating just 366 00:18:09,665 --> 00:18:11,725 for the dining experience, 367 00:18:12,775 --> 00:18:15,815 eat the one you like the best, it's no problem. 368 00:18:16,965 --> 00:18:21,105 If you want to, uh, do something that's good for the 369 00:18:21,645 --> 00:18:24,545 animal, the environment, the rural economy, 370 00:18:26,645 --> 00:18:29,925 probably climate change, da, you know, then, you know, 371 00:18:29,945 --> 00:18:31,485 you might wanna think a little bit more about it. 372 00:18:32,065 --> 00:18:37,005 But it's, I, I really don't spend much time blast feeding 373 00:18:38,295 --> 00:18:39,965 green finished beef. I 374 00:18:39,965 --> 00:18:41,205 - Mean, I mean, I'll eat it still. 375 00:18:41,365 --> 00:18:42,525 I eat it all the time too. 376 00:18:42,525 --> 00:18:44,005 When I go to restaurants, I, 377 00:18:44,165 --> 00:18:46,045 I don't think there's a whole lot of re I mean, 378 00:18:46,045 --> 00:18:47,725 the higher end ones say grass fed, 379 00:18:47,825 --> 00:18:49,125 but I'm just saying that I can 380 00:18:49,125 --> 00:18:50,325 definitely tell the difference. 381 00:18:50,395 --> 00:18:52,325 Yeah. It tastes better. 382 00:18:52,425 --> 00:18:55,685 To me, at least it tastes better to, 383 00:18:55,685 --> 00:18:56,765 - To a lot of people it does. 384 00:18:56,905 --> 00:18:58,285 But there are people that it doesn't. 385 00:18:58,385 --> 00:18:59,605 And, you know, and I, I get it. 386 00:18:59,785 --> 00:19:03,005 You know, when I, when I tell, I'll tell you this, when I, 387 00:19:03,465 --> 00:19:05,245 you know, I majored in agriculture, 388 00:19:05,515 --> 00:19:07,085 science, not in marketing. 389 00:19:07,425 --> 00:19:09,765 And when I did my first website, 390 00:19:09,985 --> 00:19:13,565 or had someone do put together my first website in the very 391 00:19:13,565 --> 00:19:18,225 early two thousands, I, I had them put everything in there 392 00:19:18,225 --> 00:19:20,945 that I'd have heard that was good about grass fed beef. 393 00:19:22,405 --> 00:19:26,835 And I realized that, you know, 394 00:19:27,595 --> 00:19:29,115 I need to talk about what I know about, 395 00:19:29,895 --> 00:19:32,555 and what I know about is the impact on the land, 396 00:19:32,655 --> 00:19:33,995 the impact on the animal animal, 397 00:19:33,995 --> 00:19:35,435 the impact on the rural community. 398 00:19:36,255 --> 00:19:39,035 And I, I, I had to go back through years later 399 00:19:39,095 --> 00:19:41,315 and get them to take everything out there that I've had 400 00:19:41,315 --> 00:19:43,635 to put, that had to do with health, 401 00:19:44,425 --> 00:19:46,355 nutrition, culinary. 402 00:19:47,515 --> 00:19:49,075 I have some beliefs about those things, 403 00:19:50,015 --> 00:19:52,435 but I'm an expert on the land, 404 00:19:52,775 --> 00:19:54,155 the animal, and the community. 405 00:19:55,135 --> 00:19:57,995 And I, I just won't talk about the things that, that I can, 406 00:19:58,115 --> 00:19:59,595 I can, well, I can win the argument. 407 00:20:00,265 --> 00:20:01,555 - Sure, that makes sense. 408 00:20:01,985 --> 00:20:04,075 What, as you started to make the shift 409 00:20:04,255 --> 00:20:08,075 and that you hung in there is admirable, 410 00:20:08,475 --> 00:20:10,195 considering you saw that it was going 411 00:20:10,195 --> 00:20:12,635 to be financially not stable for a while. 412 00:20:13,575 --> 00:20:16,235 How did you start to see the changes in the land? 413 00:20:16,585 --> 00:20:17,595 Firstly, and then I'd like 414 00:20:17,595 --> 00:20:18,795 to talk about the rural community, 415 00:20:18,795 --> 00:20:20,995 because I do think that's an important aspect. 416 00:20:22,525 --> 00:20:25,615 - Well, the, uh, yeah, let's talk about it individually mean 417 00:20:25,615 --> 00:20:27,735 the, the land, the, what happened 418 00:20:27,735 --> 00:20:31,855 with the land is my land went from one half 419 00:20:31,915 --> 00:20:35,135 of 1% organic matter, one half of 1% 420 00:20:35,715 --> 00:20:37,695 to 5% organic matter. 421 00:20:38,035 --> 00:20:39,575 It took 20 years to do it, 422 00:20:40,495 --> 00:20:43,115 but that's a 10 x increase in organic model. 423 00:20:44,225 --> 00:20:47,245 And organic model is really important. 424 00:20:47,835 --> 00:20:49,405 It's the life of the soil, 425 00:20:50,565 --> 00:20:53,185 and it's the water holding capacity of the soil. 426 00:20:54,445 --> 00:20:56,825 And I don't think one's any more important than the other 427 00:20:56,825 --> 00:20:58,985 one, but we can graphically talk about the water 428 00:20:59,925 --> 00:21:02,545 or 1% organic matter in the soil 429 00:21:03,525 --> 00:21:05,505 of absorbable one inch rain event, 430 00:21:07,305 --> 00:21:10,885 that's 27,000 gallons of water on an acco land. 431 00:21:12,695 --> 00:21:15,075 So mine is 5% organic model. 432 00:21:15,645 --> 00:21:17,955 It'll absorb a five inch rain event, 433 00:21:18,735 --> 00:21:20,195 and we get five inch rain events. 434 00:21:21,055 --> 00:21:24,035 And I've got, if you go on my website, why oak pasture.com, 435 00:21:24,035 --> 00:21:26,875 there's some videos of the water coming off my farm 436 00:21:26,975 --> 00:21:28,035 and my neighbor's farm. 437 00:21:28,735 --> 00:21:30,555 And it's incredible. 438 00:21:31,145 --> 00:21:33,635 It's just, it's just really incredible to me. 439 00:21:35,455 --> 00:21:37,435 We could talk a lot about it, but that would be a, 440 00:21:37,555 --> 00:21:41,275 a real difference that, that's documentable actually, 441 00:21:41,275 --> 00:21:45,235 that's also on my website, a, uh, scientific work done. 442 00:21:46,915 --> 00:21:51,125 It's called an LCA Lifecycle Assessment done 443 00:21:51,145 --> 00:21:55,365 by an environmental engineering group from Minneapolis, 444 00:21:55,525 --> 00:21:56,925 I think I called Quantas. 445 00:21:57,945 --> 00:22:01,805 And, uh, a customer of mine had some concern. 446 00:22:02,085 --> 00:22:06,245 I mean, a corporate customer bought wholesale about some 447 00:22:06,245 --> 00:22:09,285 of the claims that that had been made about grass fed beef 448 00:22:09,425 --> 00:22:12,085 and, and, and you know, what it does for the land. 449 00:22:13,065 --> 00:22:16,845 And they actually paid 80 something thousand dollars to have 450 00:22:16,845 --> 00:22:21,655 that, uh, LCA study, uh, scientific study done. 451 00:22:22,355 --> 00:22:23,375 It was, it was a big deal. 452 00:22:23,455 --> 00:22:25,135 A lot of people came down here and spent a lot of time. 453 00:22:25,275 --> 00:22:26,415 We had to do bunch of stuff. 454 00:22:27,685 --> 00:22:31,985 But what it showed is that my cattle operation 455 00:22:32,585 --> 00:22:35,945 actually, uh, sequesters three 456 00:22:35,945 --> 00:22:37,945 and a half pounds of carbon 457 00:22:38,765 --> 00:22:40,465 for every pound of beef we harvest. 458 00:22:41,325 --> 00:22:42,745 You know, it's not, you know, 459 00:22:42,745 --> 00:22:46,105 how you hear cattle destroying the earth, you know, well, 460 00:22:46,715 --> 00:22:49,345 industrial cattle may be destroying the earth. 461 00:22:50,115 --> 00:22:54,275 What we're doing here is improving it, as a matter of fact, 462 00:22:54,855 --> 00:22:56,155 uh, impossible burger. 463 00:22:57,995 --> 00:23:00,975 So, and I'm not, I'm not here to, to to, 464 00:23:02,005 --> 00:23:04,465 to say bad things about the impossible bird, 465 00:23:04,465 --> 00:23:08,025 but this is just too good to not tell just, 466 00:23:08,245 --> 00:23:09,905 you know, they talk a lot about their environmental 467 00:23:10,005 --> 00:23:11,145 impact, and that's fine. 468 00:23:11,295 --> 00:23:13,545 It's, it's probably better than industrial cattle 469 00:23:13,545 --> 00:23:14,745 production probably is. 470 00:23:16,475 --> 00:23:21,175 But they actually hired Qantas, the same 471 00:23:21,775 --> 00:23:25,495 engineering firm, to do a lifecycle assessment on their 472 00:23:25,495 --> 00:23:28,525 operation to com to see what it was doing. 473 00:23:29,455 --> 00:23:32,955 And it showed that they actually emit three 474 00:23:32,955 --> 00:23:35,555 and a half pounds of carbon for every pound 475 00:23:35,575 --> 00:23:36,675 of impossible burn. 476 00:23:37,255 --> 00:23:39,995 We sequester three and a three and a half. 477 00:23:40,155 --> 00:23:41,795 I mean, it's, that's incredible you, 478 00:23:41,795 --> 00:23:43,195 that you can't make that up. 479 00:23:43,615 --> 00:23:46,085 And it, it is on my, it's on my website. 480 00:23:46,905 --> 00:23:50,325 But what that means is if you wanna have a zero footprint, 481 00:23:51,095 --> 00:23:53,285 every pound of impossible burger you eat, 482 00:23:53,585 --> 00:23:55,365 you gotta eat a pound of mine to break even 483 00:23:56,325 --> 00:23:57,325 - . 484 00:23:58,705 --> 00:23:59,765 That's so interesting. 485 00:24:00,505 --> 00:24:04,325 You know, speaking of the land, a friend 486 00:24:04,325 --> 00:24:08,765 of mine in Tennessee has a, it's, it's not a, a farm, as in, 487 00:24:08,765 --> 00:24:11,725 she, she doesn't grow things other than she just lets nature 488 00:24:11,865 --> 00:24:13,285 run wild on this farm. 489 00:24:13,985 --> 00:24:16,885 And I remember when I went to visit 490 00:24:17,065 --> 00:24:18,925 and I was walking around, I was really nervous 491 00:24:18,955 --> 00:24:21,685 because bugs love me. 492 00:24:21,885 --> 00:24:25,645 I get bit like crazy by bugs, and I'm walking around 493 00:24:25,825 --> 00:24:28,525 and, you know, you're seeing creatures all over the place, 494 00:24:28,695 --> 00:24:31,365 birds and little things running around the tall grass. 495 00:24:31,765 --> 00:24:33,005 I didn't get a single bug bite. 496 00:24:33,105 --> 00:24:34,845 And I said to her later in the afternoon 497 00:24:34,915 --> 00:24:36,325 that I was marveling at this. 498 00:24:37,205 --> 00:24:39,525 I couldn't believe I'd spent all day out in fields 499 00:24:39,665 --> 00:24:41,405 and not a single bite by anything. 500 00:24:41,425 --> 00:24:44,365 And she said, oh, no, the nature land takes care of itself. 501 00:24:44,365 --> 00:24:46,685 There's plenty of things out there eating the bugs. 502 00:24:46,705 --> 00:24:50,205 And, and there's, you know, the bats and the possums 503 00:24:50,205 --> 00:24:51,285 and the this and the that. 504 00:24:51,665 --> 00:24:55,165 If you just let it be what it is, it'll take care of you. 505 00:24:55,225 --> 00:24:56,325 And I thought, wow, that's really, 506 00:24:56,325 --> 00:24:57,885 that's a profound statement. 507 00:24:59,185 --> 00:25:03,405 - She is exactly right. Your friend is a, a very wise woman. 508 00:25:04,505 --> 00:25:08,035 And, uh, uh, one of the ancient Greeks, 509 00:25:08,355 --> 00:25:10,955 I don't know which one, one of the ancient Greeks said, 510 00:25:11,415 --> 00:25:15,115 for every pestilence that nature sends, she sends the cure. 511 00:25:16,525 --> 00:25:18,225 And that's true. I mean, that's the way it works. 512 00:25:19,105 --> 00:25:20,825 I mean, there's harmony there, 513 00:25:21,775 --> 00:25:24,115 and if, if some pestilence 514 00:25:26,495 --> 00:25:29,975 inflates there, there's something to keep it in check 515 00:25:29,975 --> 00:25:31,255 that will inflate with it. 516 00:25:32,035 --> 00:25:33,615 And it is, it works beautifully. 517 00:25:34,865 --> 00:25:38,765 And it's exactly what we've done wrong with modern, 518 00:25:39,745 --> 00:25:43,165 uh, technical, uh, industrial farming. 519 00:25:44,225 --> 00:25:48,405 And we put out pesticides to kill stu pe sides. 520 00:25:48,715 --> 00:25:49,765 That means kill, right? 521 00:25:50,285 --> 00:25:53,005 Homicide, pesticide, insecticide, 522 00:25:53,105 --> 00:25:58,085 and the ide herbicide side, we, we were out to kill things 523 00:25:58,875 --> 00:26:00,285 when I was an industrial farmer. 524 00:26:01,005 --> 00:26:04,845 I went into my pastures every single day with the intent 525 00:26:04,945 --> 00:26:06,725 of finding something to kill. 526 00:26:07,285 --> 00:26:10,485 I was looking for something that was causing a problem, 527 00:26:11,425 --> 00:26:14,545 and I was really good about knowing how to kill it, 528 00:26:14,545 --> 00:26:15,705 what to use to kill it. 529 00:26:17,165 --> 00:26:20,185 And what I didn't understand is, 530 00:26:20,845 --> 00:26:22,105 and I took a lot of pride in that. 531 00:26:22,225 --> 00:26:23,305 I, I thought I was, I thought 532 00:26:23,305 --> 00:26:26,185 that's something I was good at, that I wanted to be good at. 533 00:26:27,675 --> 00:26:31,905 But the truth is, when I used that 534 00:26:32,815 --> 00:26:36,505 technical product that, that pesticide 535 00:26:37,005 --> 00:26:40,465 to kill something, it killed exactly what I wanted to kill. 536 00:26:40,885 --> 00:26:44,265 And, and 537 00:26:44,575 --> 00:26:46,105 that threw nature out of balance. 538 00:26:46,325 --> 00:26:48,025 So something else would skyrocket. 539 00:26:48,525 --> 00:26:51,745 So tomorrow I needed another pesticide to, 540 00:26:51,845 --> 00:26:53,505 and the next day I needed another pe. 541 00:26:53,505 --> 00:26:54,825 And it's, it's never ending. 542 00:26:56,505 --> 00:26:59,165 So you, you know, your friend is right. Nature. 543 00:26:59,505 --> 00:27:00,925 I'm not saying you won't be able to get bit 544 00:27:00,945 --> 00:27:03,285 by an insect in a national environment. 545 00:27:03,625 --> 00:27:07,165 You will, but you shouldn't get your butt eat up 546 00:27:07,225 --> 00:27:09,885 by insect in a natural environment thing, you know, thing. 547 00:27:09,915 --> 00:27:12,565 There's a, uh, there, there should be a balance, 548 00:27:13,365 --> 00:27:15,285 a naturally occurring balance going on. 549 00:27:16,255 --> 00:27:17,685 - Let's talk about rural community. 550 00:27:18,665 --> 00:27:21,595 - Okay, that's my, that's one of my three favorite subjects. 551 00:27:22,075 --> 00:27:24,515 - I was talking to a friend this morning that, uh, that you 552 00:27:24,515 --> 00:27:25,875 and I were gonna have this conversation, 553 00:27:26,735 --> 00:27:28,995 and I, I told her how excited I was for it, 554 00:27:29,175 --> 00:27:33,075 and I, I said that my frustration about, um, 555 00:27:33,865 --> 00:27:35,555 that I think the family farm 556 00:27:35,735 --> 00:27:38,075 or the, the farmer's market, farmers, 557 00:27:38,295 --> 00:27:39,355 you know, that all come together. 558 00:27:39,935 --> 00:27:42,475 The food just, it ta firstly, it tastes different. 559 00:27:43,385 --> 00:27:46,115 It's, you taste like the real food in grocery stores. 560 00:27:46,225 --> 00:27:49,475 Food doesn't taste real anymore. Uh, to me at least. 561 00:27:49,955 --> 00:27:52,275 I, I think, and I'm, I'm ignorant to a lot 562 00:27:52,275 --> 00:27:53,915 of this stuff I'm, I'm trying to learn, 563 00:27:54,095 --> 00:27:56,555 but I think that it seems 564 00:27:56,575 --> 00:28:00,675 to me we have done this country such a disservice by 565 00:28:01,415 --> 00:28:04,955 not supporting or making it maybe more expensive 566 00:28:04,955 --> 00:28:09,035 or harder for farmers who take the kind of, um, 567 00:28:09,975 --> 00:28:11,955 the, the kind of choices that you've made, 568 00:28:12,305 --> 00:28:15,235 that it's almost like they get, um, not 569 00:28:17,825 --> 00:28:20,435 that they don't get the same financial benefits, 570 00:28:20,435 --> 00:28:22,795 they don't get the help, and, uh, that there, there needs 571 00:28:22,795 --> 00:28:26,355 to be better support to do it the way that nature 572 00:28:26,905 --> 00:28:29,235 expects it to be done. Does that make sense? 573 00:28:29,595 --> 00:28:31,515 - I mean, the, the economic, the economic side 574 00:28:31,515 --> 00:28:33,275 of it is, is a little different. 575 00:28:33,475 --> 00:28:34,875 I mean, it's part of the rule development. 576 00:28:34,875 --> 00:28:35,995 We'll talk about it separately. 577 00:28:36,095 --> 00:28:40,155 So we'll still talk about the, uh, so 578 00:28:41,625 --> 00:28:45,265 post-World War ii, everything has been done 579 00:28:45,605 --> 00:28:48,105 to make food cheaper and cheaper and cheaper. 580 00:28:48,315 --> 00:28:51,025 Cheap food is just like, it's like almost like biblical. 581 00:28:51,335 --> 00:28:52,985 It's just everything needs to be cheap. 582 00:28:54,585 --> 00:28:58,125 And we've done, uh, many different levels, a lot 583 00:28:58,225 --> 00:29:00,725 to take cost out of food production, 584 00:29:02,085 --> 00:29:05,585 but we didn't necessarily, we, in many cases, 585 00:29:05,725 --> 00:29:07,585 we didn't take the cost out food production, 586 00:29:07,585 --> 00:29:09,785 we moved the cost to somewhere else. 587 00:29:10,765 --> 00:29:12,105 You know, there's a dead zone. 588 00:29:12,285 --> 00:29:13,905 The Gulf, the Gulf of Mexico is 80, 589 00:29:13,905 --> 00:29:15,465 70 something miles that way. 590 00:29:16,405 --> 00:29:20,105 It was a dead zone in, in, in there, as big as Massachusetts 591 00:29:21,215 --> 00:29:23,145 used to be a great oystering ground, 592 00:29:23,925 --> 00:29:26,425 and now it's a dead zone, and it's dead 593 00:29:26,425 --> 00:29:28,065 because the pesticides 594 00:29:28,065 --> 00:29:31,385 and fertilizer ran off these farms 595 00:29:32,055 --> 00:29:36,745 into the Chattahoochee River, into the Gulf of Mexico and, 596 00:29:36,845 --> 00:29:38,385 and, and, and kill the big area. 597 00:29:38,525 --> 00:29:43,175 And, you know, that, I don't know what it would cost 598 00:29:43,235 --> 00:29:45,095 to get that life back in the sea, 599 00:29:45,675 --> 00:29:48,255 but I know that the farmers and the pesticide companies 600 00:29:48,255 --> 00:29:49,975 and fertilized companies aren't gonna pay it. 601 00:29:50,825 --> 00:29:52,175 We're going to pay it. 602 00:29:53,195 --> 00:29:56,495 You know, there's how many species of plants and animals 603 00:29:56,495 --> 00:30:00,255 and insects have been driven into extinction by the use 604 00:30:00,255 --> 00:30:02,055 of pesticides, fertilizer. 605 00:30:02,795 --> 00:30:03,855 And that has a cost. 606 00:30:04,435 --> 00:30:07,455 And I don't know if, uh, a certain healing bird's worth 607 00:30:08,275 --> 00:30:10,015 as a species is worth a million dollars 608 00:30:10,195 --> 00:30:11,575 or a hundred million dollars, 609 00:30:11,675 --> 00:30:16,015 but there's a cost to losing that life for 610 00:30:16,685 --> 00:30:17,685 - Bats and bees. 611 00:30:17,805 --> 00:30:20,175 They've been dying off because of pesticides, 612 00:30:20,175 --> 00:30:21,575 and we need bats and bees. 613 00:30:22,035 --> 00:30:25,975 - So they, we can talk all day long about, uh, costs 614 00:30:27,165 --> 00:30:29,135 that chemical fertilizers 615 00:30:29,135 --> 00:30:32,695 and pesticides have incurred that farmers don't cover. 616 00:30:33,155 --> 00:30:35,535 The pesticide company doesn't cover the grain 617 00:30:35,535 --> 00:30:36,575 company, the food company. 618 00:30:36,885 --> 00:30:40,215 It's just cast out there and we all cover it. 619 00:30:41,435 --> 00:30:46,215 And when you consider that added, uh, cost to the food, 620 00:30:46,375 --> 00:30:47,695 I don't know if it if it's as cheap 621 00:30:47,695 --> 00:30:49,015 as we think it is or not. 622 00:30:51,735 --> 00:30:53,595 So we can talk about that a long time, uh, 623 00:30:53,615 --> 00:30:55,995 to talk about the town, the other, I told you 624 00:30:55,995 --> 00:30:59,275 that the three things that are important to me is the land, 625 00:30:59,295 --> 00:31:01,035 the animals in the rural community. 626 00:31:01,815 --> 00:31:04,835 So I'm sitting in the old courthouse in 627 00:31:05,035 --> 00:31:06,195 Bluffton, Georgia right now. 628 00:31:06,665 --> 00:31:07,995 It's right in the middle of my farm. 629 00:31:09,935 --> 00:31:14,475 And Bluffton was a purely agricultural town, 630 00:31:14,735 --> 00:31:16,675 always has been a purely agricultural town. 631 00:31:16,675 --> 00:31:19,035 I know how to faction, know how to railroad, know how 632 00:31:19,035 --> 00:31:22,915 to mill factory, uh, farm a farm town, not a factory town. 633 00:31:23,805 --> 00:31:28,525 I, I misspoke. So when we industrialized 634 00:31:28,665 --> 00:31:31,125 my dad's generation, my generation industrialized 635 00:31:31,265 --> 00:31:35,045 and centralized agriculture, the town became a ghost town. 636 00:31:35,955 --> 00:31:39,095 You know, it had, uh, I don't think it ever had over four oh 637 00:31:39,095 --> 00:31:43,495 and something people, but it would've been the trade center 638 00:31:43,755 --> 00:31:45,255 for several thousand people, 639 00:31:45,255 --> 00:31:48,015 because that was the era of 40 acres on a mule. 640 00:31:48,785 --> 00:31:50,245 And each farm had a family. 641 00:31:50,785 --> 00:31:52,605 It would've been 6, 8, 10 people. 642 00:31:53,505 --> 00:31:56,765 So if that was, this was a trade zone, uh, 643 00:31:56,765 --> 00:31:59,525 post World War ii, this town has shrunk and shrunk 644 00:31:59,545 --> 00:32:02,285 and shrunk till it had, uh, about a hundred people 645 00:32:02,865 --> 00:32:06,725 and really mostly old people, poor people. 646 00:32:07,945 --> 00:32:09,725 Uh, I'm in, I'm in Clay County, Georgia, 647 00:32:10,225 --> 00:32:14,245 and Clay County, Georgia in 2020 was the poorest county in 648 00:32:14,245 --> 00:32:15,805 the United States of America. 649 00:32:18,925 --> 00:32:22,945 And we have really, uh, put a lot into 650 00:32:23,745 --> 00:32:24,945 bringing the town back. 651 00:32:25,335 --> 00:32:28,905 I've got a, I've got 170 employees on the farm, 652 00:32:29,005 --> 00:32:31,745 and they make well above the county average. 653 00:32:32,405 --> 00:32:33,905 I'm not proud of what my people make. 654 00:32:33,935 --> 00:32:36,945 It's not that much, but it's well above the county average. 655 00:32:38,445 --> 00:32:41,985 And today, Bluffton is a very nice little town, 656 00:32:42,605 --> 00:32:43,945 and it's a nice little town 657 00:32:44,055 --> 00:32:47,665 because we changed agriculture, it became more local. 658 00:32:48,825 --> 00:32:52,985 I think that the, uh, I think that the statistic is 659 00:32:52,985 --> 00:32:56,585 that the farmer, uh, gets about 15 cents 660 00:32:56,605 --> 00:33:00,285 of the food dollar here. 661 00:33:00,805 --> 00:33:03,805 I get a hundred cents of the food dollar if I sell it direct 662 00:33:03,985 --> 00:33:05,765 to consumers. 663 00:33:06,225 --> 00:33:08,845 And we sell a lot direct to consumers online. 664 00:33:10,555 --> 00:33:13,525 Well, I don't, I don't, this is not a super profitable farm. 665 00:33:13,645 --> 00:33:14,965 I don't keep that a hundred cents. 666 00:33:16,065 --> 00:33:20,125 And my payroll is a hundred thousand dollars every Friday. 667 00:33:21,565 --> 00:33:24,665 And that money circulates in Bluffton, Georgia. 668 00:33:25,285 --> 00:33:27,385 And it's just been really economically 669 00:33:27,385 --> 00:33:28,505 beneficial for the farm. 670 00:33:29,255 --> 00:33:30,665 It's one of the thing, it, it, it, 671 00:33:30,805 --> 00:33:32,225 it, it was not an intention. 672 00:33:32,485 --> 00:33:35,345 You know, I, I was focused on the land and the animals, 673 00:33:36,345 --> 00:33:39,965 but when I changed the way I raise animals on the land, 674 00:33:40,985 --> 00:33:42,605 we started hiring a lot of people 675 00:33:42,825 --> 00:33:46,845 and a lot of really great, talented, 676 00:33:47,415 --> 00:33:48,925 passionate people. 677 00:33:49,865 --> 00:33:51,525 And the town came back. 678 00:33:51,675 --> 00:33:54,925 They needed, they needed a place to eat and sleep and play. 679 00:33:55,505 --> 00:33:58,365 And we provided it today. 680 00:33:58,385 --> 00:34:03,205 We got, you know, a store, we got a RV park, we got 681 00:34:03,755 --> 00:34:08,525 several, you know, uh, food producing entities here in town. 682 00:34:08,525 --> 00:34:10,165 Several, a lot. There's a lot going on here, 683 00:34:10,305 --> 00:34:11,925 and I'm very proud of that. 684 00:34:13,895 --> 00:34:16,635 - Do you, uh, firstly, that's so wonderful. 685 00:34:17,155 --> 00:34:20,475 I think that that is the big disconnect, of course. 686 00:34:20,535 --> 00:34:24,035 And the, the folks that, as you said, make the pesticides, 687 00:34:24,065 --> 00:34:26,635 make these chemicals, they're the same folks 688 00:34:26,635 --> 00:34:30,195 that are selling the, the, they're all owned by the same 689 00:34:30,815 --> 00:34:32,675 top dog stuff. 690 00:34:32,735 --> 00:34:35,355 So the people that are selling the pro the product 691 00:34:35,975 --> 00:34:38,075 are making the stuff that's poisoning the product. 692 00:34:38,545 --> 00:34:41,195 They're on both sides. But you can't serve two masters. 693 00:34:42,135 --> 00:34:44,835 We know this, and they, they certainly do. 694 00:34:45,495 --> 00:34:49,675 But I think the more that, uh, we society understands 695 00:34:50,375 --> 00:34:53,715 what's going on behind the curtain, super important, 696 00:34:53,815 --> 00:34:55,915 and to know that it does work, 697 00:34:55,915 --> 00:34:59,315 because I think a lot of rhetoric out there is saying, 698 00:34:59,335 --> 00:35:01,435 the things that you do don't work. 699 00:35:01,765 --> 00:35:04,475 Right. That's, that's the, the common 700 00:35:05,765 --> 00:35:10,355 commentary running across the United States, you know, oh, 701 00:35:10,355 --> 00:35:12,315 no, industrial farming, that's the only way to fly. 702 00:35:12,345 --> 00:35:13,555 It's very important. And, 703 00:35:13,935 --> 00:35:15,395 and it's the, it gets the job done. 704 00:35:15,415 --> 00:35:16,595 It keeps things cheap. 705 00:35:16,815 --> 00:35:21,445 But I mean, directly from you, you're experiencing it. 706 00:35:22,005 --> 00:35:24,125 I think that's why these conversations are so important. 707 00:35:24,595 --> 00:35:27,085 - Yeah. And there's a thing called greenwashing that 708 00:35:27,085 --> 00:35:30,805 that's going on, you know, really big way in this country. 709 00:35:30,905 --> 00:35:33,645 And that's big national companies 710 00:35:33,645 --> 00:35:38,435 that produce food products, talking about them in a way 711 00:35:38,435 --> 00:35:43,195 that emulates what we do, But not really. 712 00:35:43,475 --> 00:35:46,835 I mean, but the consumer is just hopelessly, you know, 713 00:35:46,835 --> 00:35:49,515 the consumers are hopelessly busy 714 00:35:49,735 --> 00:35:51,595 and confused and in a hurry. 715 00:35:52,415 --> 00:35:56,515 And if, if, if a name brand company is boldly telling them 716 00:35:56,985 --> 00:36:00,095 this is fine, the tendency is to believe it. 717 00:36:00,715 --> 00:36:04,815 You know, a good example of that is, uh, in two, 718 00:36:04,975 --> 00:36:09,495 I think it was 2015, uh, they changed the rule 719 00:36:10,115 --> 00:36:12,775 on, uh, labeling imported beef. 720 00:36:13,355 --> 00:36:18,275 Uh, prior to that, uh, a cow had to be born, 721 00:36:18,455 --> 00:36:20,755 raised, and slaughtered in the United States 722 00:36:20,935 --> 00:36:22,875 to be marked product of the USA. 723 00:36:24,215 --> 00:36:25,905 They changed the rules so 724 00:36:25,905 --> 00:36:28,185 that if value was added in this country, 725 00:36:28,365 --> 00:36:29,985 it was a product of the USA. 726 00:36:31,095 --> 00:36:35,555 So today, a huge percent, I bet it's 90%, 727 00:36:35,955 --> 00:36:37,995 although I don't have the access to those figures, 728 00:36:37,995 --> 00:36:41,675 but a huge percentage of the grass fed beef 729 00:36:42,015 --> 00:36:46,495 that's marketed in this country was born, raised 730 00:36:46,715 --> 00:36:51,415 and slaughtered in Australia, New Zealand, Uruguay, 731 00:36:51,915 --> 00:36:53,135 or 20 other countries. 732 00:36:53,755 --> 00:36:57,055 But the consumer never, never has any idea. 733 00:36:57,435 --> 00:36:59,815 It says product of the USA legally. 734 00:37:00,895 --> 00:37:02,475 So that's greenwashing, 735 00:37:04,245 --> 00:37:06,825 - That's terrifying, but not surprising. 736 00:37:07,015 --> 00:37:09,915 That doesn't surprise me at all. Yeah. 737 00:37:10,335 --> 00:37:12,155 - It, it appalls me, you know? Yeah. 738 00:37:13,265 --> 00:37:17,205 - Do you think it's possible to see a future 739 00:37:18,255 --> 00:37:22,505 where every town has a farmer that, 740 00:37:22,605 --> 00:37:26,225 or a few farmers that are sustaining 741 00:37:26,285 --> 00:37:29,225 and creating an environment where the people 742 00:37:29,225 --> 00:37:33,105 around there are being fed and well t taking care of 743 00:37:33,325 --> 00:37:36,065 and creating a situation like what you've done there? 744 00:37:37,085 --> 00:37:39,045 - I, I don't know. That's what I thought. 745 00:37:39,325 --> 00:37:40,965 I mean, that's what I thought I was working towards. 746 00:37:42,125 --> 00:37:44,745 Uh, I love the concept of local food. 747 00:37:45,855 --> 00:37:48,555 Uh, you know, I, I ship product to 48 states. 748 00:37:49,115 --> 00:37:52,325 I don't want to, I mean, I, I, I need to, 749 00:37:52,685 --> 00:37:53,765 I, I gotta sell 20. 750 00:37:54,005 --> 00:37:57,325 I built them. We do our own slaughter processing here. 751 00:37:58,165 --> 00:38:01,565 I spent a lot of money. I've got to sell $25 million worth 752 00:38:01,565 --> 00:38:03,565 of product a year to make my stuff work. 753 00:38:04,105 --> 00:38:08,285 And I can't sell $25 million in Bluffton or in Georgia, 754 00:38:09,185 --> 00:38:10,605 or in Georgia, in Florida now. 755 00:38:10,625 --> 00:38:11,805 And I have to stretch out, 756 00:38:12,105 --> 00:38:14,125 but I don't want to, I want there to be 757 00:38:15,075 --> 00:38:19,185 more market penetration for this kind of product, 758 00:38:19,765 --> 00:38:23,225 and I want more customers to be able to buy it more locally. 759 00:38:24,685 --> 00:38:26,185 But I don't know if that's gonna happen or not. 760 00:38:26,365 --> 00:38:30,265 Uh, it, for a long time it looked like we were headed in 761 00:38:30,265 --> 00:38:33,735 that direction, but it doesn't, I don't know. 762 00:38:33,995 --> 00:38:37,805 Now, I don't know. I, I sold Whole Foods Market 763 00:38:37,985 --> 00:38:40,765 and Public Supermarket, the first pound 764 00:38:40,825 --> 00:38:44,285 of American grass fed beef that they marketed 765 00:38:44,345 --> 00:38:45,965 as American Grass Fed Beef, 766 00:38:46,135 --> 00:38:48,125 which is in the early two thousands. 767 00:38:50,375 --> 00:38:53,635 And they just bought all I could produce. 768 00:38:53,915 --> 00:38:58,355 I mean, it was, I had some really good years, uh, in that, 769 00:38:58,455 --> 00:39:01,035 in that marketing situation. 770 00:39:02,015 --> 00:39:05,155 Uh, and it, 771 00:39:05,335 --> 00:39:08,075 and I, I, I, I needed to sell that amount of stuff, 772 00:39:08,135 --> 00:39:09,315 but I, I was not trying 773 00:39:09,315 --> 00:39:11,915 to grow the company up into a big national company. 774 00:39:12,025 --> 00:39:14,155 That was never a goal of mine. Still is not. 775 00:39:15,735 --> 00:39:19,675 But, uh, and I thought that, well, this is gonna be good. 776 00:39:20,805 --> 00:39:23,115 We'll, you know, people wanna buy more and more and more 777 00:39:23,115 --> 00:39:24,955 and more farm, start doing what we're doing, 778 00:39:25,605 --> 00:39:26,635 scout all over the country, 779 00:39:26,695 --> 00:39:28,835 and it'll be, we'll be going in the right direction. 780 00:39:29,775 --> 00:39:32,555 But it hadn't worked out that way, you know, it just really, 781 00:39:33,215 --> 00:39:34,275 and I don't, I don't know. 782 00:39:35,635 --> 00:39:38,195 I have a, I've had a lot of, uh, through the years 783 00:39:38,375 --> 00:39:42,035 of friends Qantas that, uh, can tried 784 00:39:42,035 --> 00:39:45,435 to convert from Industrial Farm into this and, 785 00:39:45,455 --> 00:39:46,475 and couldn't do it. 786 00:39:46,755 --> 00:39:48,995 I couldn't have done it either. My timing just was 787 00:39:49,375 --> 00:39:53,655 so fortunate, you know, I, I didn't, if I tried to do today 788 00:39:53,685 --> 00:39:56,215 what I did in the early two thousands, it would not work. 789 00:39:56,715 --> 00:40:00,085 - Mm. That's depressing. 790 00:40:02,225 --> 00:40:04,995 - Well, and, and government's not going to fix it. 791 00:40:05,975 --> 00:40:07,795 Big grocery is not going to fix it. 792 00:40:07,975 --> 00:40:09,955 Big food is not going to fix it. 793 00:40:11,065 --> 00:40:14,035 Indu land grant, universities are not going to fix it. 794 00:40:14,075 --> 00:40:17,075 I, I can tell you, dozens of people that are not going 795 00:40:17,095 --> 00:40:19,195 to entities are not going to fix it. 796 00:40:19,485 --> 00:40:20,675 - Right. In fact, not only that, 797 00:40:20,695 --> 00:40:22,915 but they'll actively work against it being fixed 798 00:40:22,915 --> 00:40:24,475 because it doesn't serve them. 799 00:40:24,895 --> 00:40:26,035 And it's a huge, 800 00:40:26,715 --> 00:40:28,245 - Actually, actually, that's a good point, . Yeah. 801 00:40:28,425 --> 00:40:30,755 - Yeah. I mean, that's really the bottom line, right? 802 00:40:31,215 --> 00:40:32,915 - If it gets fixed, it's going to be 803 00:40:32,915 --> 00:40:34,555 because consumers fix it. 804 00:40:35,055 --> 00:40:36,555 And, and I worry about that 805 00:40:36,555 --> 00:40:40,695 because, you know, there are, if it gets fixed, 806 00:40:40,725 --> 00:40:42,575 it's gonna be because consumers fix it. 807 00:40:42,715 --> 00:40:44,615 Now, here's the problem. There are a lot 808 00:40:44,615 --> 00:40:46,295 of pool people in this country, 809 00:40:47,735 --> 00:40:51,165 and my food costs more, it costs more 810 00:40:51,165 --> 00:40:53,245 because I actually pay my own costs. 811 00:40:53,445 --> 00:40:56,085 I don't throw it out there for society to cover. 812 00:40:57,205 --> 00:40:59,625 And there are a lot of people that can't afford to buy food 813 00:40:59,855 --> 00:41:01,705 that is produced the way I produce it. 814 00:41:02,085 --> 00:41:05,025 And I'm aware of that, and I don't have an answer for that. 815 00:41:05,485 --> 00:41:08,585 You know, it's, it is, but I think the first step is 816 00:41:08,585 --> 00:41:11,625 for those who can afford it, to afford it. 817 00:41:12,175 --> 00:41:14,945 - Yeah. I mean, the irony of that too though, is 818 00:41:14,945 --> 00:41:18,025 how much are people spending on their cancer treatments 819 00:41:18,285 --> 00:41:21,305 or their, their obesity treatments 820 00:41:21,365 --> 00:41:23,185 or whatever it is, is that 821 00:41:23,775 --> 00:41:25,865 it's steering us right in the face. 822 00:41:26,285 --> 00:41:31,145 Yes. Healthy nature made the way the land intended 823 00:41:31,855 --> 00:41:33,445 food is gonna cost more, 824 00:41:35,055 --> 00:41:39,275 but it's gonna be cheaper still than all the healthcare 825 00:41:39,315 --> 00:41:41,955 problems that are happening because of things like Roundup 826 00:41:41,955 --> 00:41:44,275 or, you know, whatever it is, the pesticides 827 00:41:44,275 --> 00:41:45,875 or the, the climate 828 00:41:46,015 --> 00:41:49,355 or the whatever, whatever problems that are arising 829 00:41:49,355 --> 00:41:51,995 because of this industrial food complex. 830 00:41:52,595 --> 00:41:54,275 - I, I do, I do agree with you on that, 831 00:41:54,895 --> 00:41:56,915 but we still have the fact that there are people 832 00:41:56,915 --> 00:41:57,995 that can't afford it today. 833 00:41:58,615 --> 00:41:59,715 - Of - Course. And I, 834 00:42:00,335 --> 00:42:03,315 and I, I, I don't have the solution for that. I wish I did. 835 00:42:03,905 --> 00:42:07,995 - Yeah. Are you, do you have programs 836 00:42:07,995 --> 00:42:11,555 where you're trying to educate the, 837 00:42:11,895 --> 00:42:13,875 the country at large, would you say, I mean, 838 00:42:13,875 --> 00:42:14,915 I know you come on these shows, 839 00:42:15,015 --> 00:42:16,755 you get interviewed and that that helps. 840 00:42:17,695 --> 00:42:22,435 Uh, but do you have things where farmers can reach out 841 00:42:22,435 --> 00:42:24,275 to you and say, Hey, I wanna do 842 00:42:24,275 --> 00:42:25,715 this, but I don't really know how 843 00:42:27,845 --> 00:42:30,665 - We actually, uh, well, that the answer, yes, 844 00:42:31,085 --> 00:42:32,265 but that's not my priority. 845 00:42:32,365 --> 00:42:34,985 My priority is to make this business work. And it's hard. 846 00:42:35,415 --> 00:42:37,225 Yeah. But I, the answer, yes. 847 00:42:37,705 --> 00:42:42,265 I did two years ago form a 5 0 1 C3 called 848 00:42:42,895 --> 00:42:45,385 cfar Center for Agricultural Resilience 849 00:42:47,125 --> 00:42:49,105 and, um, 5 0 1 C3. 850 00:42:50,485 --> 00:42:53,465 And we bring people, we, we take donations for that. 851 00:42:53,525 --> 00:42:56,185 And we bring people, we spend that money to educate people 852 00:42:56,185 --> 00:42:58,545 that want to, to learn how to do it. 853 00:42:58,805 --> 00:43:02,185 And we, it's not big, but we do, we do have that. 854 00:43:02,605 --> 00:43:06,865 We also have an intern program, and it is, uh, 855 00:43:08,235 --> 00:43:09,935 and it's just not big enough. 856 00:43:10,005 --> 00:43:11,295 It's about, about all I can do. 857 00:43:11,355 --> 00:43:14,695 We, we, uh, we take six, uh, interns 858 00:43:15,355 --> 00:43:17,415 per quarter, four times a year. 859 00:43:18,495 --> 00:43:20,975 I think we took seven last time, but six or seven. 860 00:43:21,675 --> 00:43:24,335 But we get 20 something applications, you know, 861 00:43:24,335 --> 00:43:26,455 and I just can't, I can't train 'em all. 862 00:43:26,485 --> 00:43:28,855 This is a, this is a farm, it's not a school, you know? 863 00:43:28,965 --> 00:43:30,735 Yeah, I get that. We gotta make, we, 864 00:43:30,795 --> 00:43:32,095 we have to make our living here. 865 00:43:32,485 --> 00:43:35,575 - Yeah. - And I told you, I, I, you know, 866 00:43:35,855 --> 00:43:37,535 I didn't have any debt and I didn't, 867 00:43:37,795 --> 00:43:42,495 but you know, I, I bought land and built processing plants 868 00:43:42,995 --> 00:43:45,575 and a restaurant, a store, 869 00:43:45,595 --> 00:43:47,415 and we, we've added a lot of things 870 00:43:47,595 --> 00:43:50,015 to make this business work and that in, 871 00:43:50,035 --> 00:43:51,255 and that involved debt. 872 00:43:52,035 --> 00:43:53,735 And we, you know, we, we pay our debts, 873 00:43:53,955 --> 00:43:58,775 but, you know, there's no, there's no, uh, big income stream 874 00:43:59,315 --> 00:44:00,615 to, to devote to those things. 875 00:44:01,615 --> 00:44:03,345 - Correct. Yeah. I get that. 876 00:44:04,185 --> 00:44:06,225 I have friends who are homesteading 877 00:44:06,565 --> 00:44:11,105 and building community rural, growing 878 00:44:12,325 --> 00:44:14,925 partnerships amongst themselves, 879 00:44:15,505 --> 00:44:17,085 and they seem to be sustainable. 880 00:44:17,085 --> 00:44:18,965 They seem to be growing. And I have hope 881 00:44:18,965 --> 00:44:22,525 that people are getting more into the idea 882 00:44:22,665 --> 00:44:24,325 of being self-sufficient 883 00:44:24,345 --> 00:44:27,285 or growing things on their, uh, properties 884 00:44:27,345 --> 00:44:29,685 and making, instead of having a big yard full of grass, 885 00:44:29,755 --> 00:44:32,685 they make it an edible garden or things like that. 886 00:44:32,985 --> 00:44:37,925 Or communities that have, um, chunks of the block 887 00:44:37,925 --> 00:44:40,845 that are devoted to growing something 888 00:44:40,865 --> 00:44:42,125 for the community at large. 889 00:44:42,625 --> 00:44:44,765 So that gives me hope. But again, I think 890 00:44:44,765 --> 00:44:48,485 that there is a tendency that you said earlier that, 891 00:44:48,505 --> 00:44:50,805 you know, the, the, you wanna see these results 892 00:44:50,865 --> 00:44:53,205 and people are so used to getting something so quickly 893 00:44:53,865 --> 00:44:58,045 and that using the industrial way produces things rapidly, 894 00:44:58,625 --> 00:45:01,005 and that we fall into that habit 895 00:45:02,745 --> 00:45:04,525 and that that will maybe be the trap door 896 00:45:05,195 --> 00:45:06,645 that gets us in the end. 897 00:45:08,315 --> 00:45:09,915 - I, I hope so. I mean, I don't know. 898 00:45:09,995 --> 00:45:11,755 I, I don't know how this is going to work out. 899 00:45:11,895 --> 00:45:14,595 You know, I used to have ideas on what was going to happen 900 00:45:14,895 --> 00:45:17,115 and things didn't go the way I thought they would. 901 00:45:17,655 --> 00:45:19,755 Uh, I'm pretty sure we're going 902 00:45:19,755 --> 00:45:21,475 to be okay at White Oak pastures. 903 00:45:21,475 --> 00:45:23,875 We're not going to prosper, but we'll be okay. 904 00:45:24,655 --> 00:45:28,715 But, uh, I'm, I'm, I, I used to be a real recruiter. 905 00:45:29,655 --> 00:45:30,995 If somebody came to see me 906 00:45:31,015 --> 00:45:34,395 and said, you know, they inherited 50 acres 907 00:45:34,415 --> 00:45:37,395 of land from their aunt and didn't know what to do with it, 908 00:45:37,395 --> 00:45:40,955 and think, I said, you ought to, you know, 909 00:45:40,955 --> 00:45:42,795 and I tell 'em what I thought they ought to do, you know? 910 00:45:42,795 --> 00:45:46,475 And, and, and now I don't do that much anymore 911 00:45:46,475 --> 00:45:49,195 because I, you know, I, I, I urge some people 912 00:45:49,335 --> 00:45:51,675 to do things on the land that didn't work out for them. 913 00:45:51,825 --> 00:45:54,275 They, they weren't able to market it for enough money 914 00:45:54,455 --> 00:45:55,635 to, to make it work. 915 00:45:56,695 --> 00:45:58,595 So it's, uh, I just dunno 916 00:45:58,595 --> 00:45:59,795 what's gonna happen with this deal. 917 00:46:01,295 --> 00:46:03,795 - Do you want your grand babies to, to be farmers? 918 00:46:05,275 --> 00:46:06,195 - I want them to have the 919 00:46:06,195 --> 00:46:07,635 opportunity to farm if they want to. 920 00:46:08,585 --> 00:46:10,885 You know, I don't, uh, I don't have any desire. 921 00:46:11,125 --> 00:46:13,085 I, I have one daughter that didn't, didn't come back 922 00:46:13,085 --> 00:46:14,645 to farm, know she, 923 00:46:14,815 --> 00:46:17,765 she's a educator like a mama and, and a sign. 924 00:46:17,765 --> 00:46:21,125 That's great. So I don't have any expectation for them, 925 00:46:21,665 --> 00:46:25,925 but I do want to create the opportunity if they, if one 926 00:46:25,985 --> 00:46:27,725 or more of them want to. 927 00:46:28,555 --> 00:46:32,405 - Well, I, I'm appreciative of you. I'm glad you're here. 928 00:46:32,985 --> 00:46:34,525 I'm glad that you're doing what you do. 929 00:46:34,765 --> 00:46:38,325 I think it's important, and I think getting your story 930 00:46:38,825 --> 00:46:39,845 out is important. 931 00:46:40,635 --> 00:46:41,965 - Well, we, you know, I, I gotta 932 00:46:41,965 --> 00:46:43,085 say we're having a lot of fun. 933 00:46:43,405 --> 00:46:45,325 I mean, I, you know, we're not making a lot of money, 934 00:46:45,465 --> 00:46:46,565 but we're having a lot of fun. 935 00:46:46,705 --> 00:46:48,965 And I really enjoy what I do here. 936 00:46:49,205 --> 00:46:52,205 I see my children and grandchildren every day 937 00:46:52,745 --> 00:46:56,285 and, uh, uh, you know, they'll know be rich, 938 00:46:56,545 --> 00:46:58,885 but they feel I don't really love, be hungry. 939 00:46:59,585 --> 00:47:04,125 And it, it's, I think it's, uh, it's a good life. 940 00:47:04,355 --> 00:47:05,445 It's good, it's a good life. 941 00:47:06,555 --> 00:47:09,235 - I think the more humans wake up to the idea 942 00:47:09,265 --> 00:47:11,955 that wealth isn't really about a pocketbook, 943 00:47:12,175 --> 00:47:15,435 but about what is around you as far as family, 944 00:47:15,615 --> 00:47:18,835 and again, having food in your belly, things like that, 945 00:47:19,005 --> 00:47:20,355 maybe things will change. 946 00:47:20,635 --> 00:47:22,555 I don't know. But I'm glad 947 00:47:22,555 --> 00:47:24,795 that White Oak Pastures is out there. 948 00:47:25,985 --> 00:47:28,235 - Well, I am too. And I appreciate you showing, 949 00:47:28,375 --> 00:47:29,725 uh, interest in what we do here. 950 00:47:29,725 --> 00:47:30,845 Thank you very much for that. 951 00:47:31,425 --> 00:47:35,405 - And anyone listening, white oak pastures.com, if you wanna 952 00:47:35,945 --> 00:47:38,725 go check out what Will does and, and his farm, 953 00:47:38,905 --> 00:47:41,965 and, uh, there's a lot of information on the website. 954 00:47:42,705 --> 00:47:44,525 - Did they, did they tell you? We, we wrote a book. 955 00:47:45,505 --> 00:47:48,005 We wrote a book or released last October. 956 00:47:48,675 --> 00:47:51,525 It's called a Bold Return to Giving a Down, 957 00:47:53,565 --> 00:47:56,915 - A Bold Return, - A Bold Return to Giving A Down 958 00:47:57,595 --> 00:47:58,595 - . 959 00:47:58,595 --> 00:47:59,595 I love it. A Bold Return to Giving a Damn 960 00:48:00,295 --> 00:48:02,955 - Viking Penguin Random House and, 961 00:48:03,655 --> 00:48:07,835 and just been, it is just released, released this fall, 962 00:48:07,895 --> 00:48:09,235 and it's doing, doing pretty good. 963 00:48:09,335 --> 00:48:13,155 But it, if anybody does wanna know more about what we do, 964 00:48:13,185 --> 00:48:15,515 then that would be a, a great opportunity. 965 00:48:15,695 --> 00:48:18,195 And it, and it, it's not just about white oak pastures, 966 00:48:18,265 --> 00:48:22,715 it's about the effort to move food production from this 967 00:48:23,505 --> 00:48:28,235 very industrial linear model to something that's more 968 00:48:29,115 --> 00:48:32,435 cyclical and covers its own costs. 969 00:48:34,445 --> 00:48:35,665 - Is your daddy still with us? 970 00:48:36,455 --> 00:48:38,985 - He's not, no. My dad's been gone a long time. 971 00:48:39,415 --> 00:48:40,345 - What do you think he would say 972 00:48:40,345 --> 00:48:41,585 about what you've done there? 973 00:48:42,485 --> 00:48:44,905 - You know, I, I know what he'd say about what I've done. 974 00:48:44,975 --> 00:48:46,305 He'd raise hell about it. 975 00:48:46,485 --> 00:48:49,745 He, uh, he would not, he didn't want me to come back 976 00:48:49,745 --> 00:48:50,905 and farm to start with, 977 00:48:51,125 --> 00:48:55,345 and he would really, so my dad, I told you, born in 1920, 978 00:48:55,445 --> 00:48:57,185 he was a child of the depression 979 00:48:57,485 --> 00:49:00,825 and debt was not okay with him. 980 00:49:01,205 --> 00:49:05,425 And he worked hard farms paid for, you know, 981 00:49:05,505 --> 00:49:07,145 I I I borrowed money. 982 00:49:07,625 --> 00:49:10,665 I, I we spent $7 million building processing plants 983 00:49:10,805 --> 00:49:12,945 and distribution arms. 984 00:49:13,325 --> 00:49:17,145 So, you know, that not much I've done would've been okay 985 00:49:17,145 --> 00:49:19,905 with him for the last 20 years. 986 00:49:20,905 --> 00:49:22,385 - , I don't know. 987 00:49:22,545 --> 00:49:25,145 I think maybe we're, you know, I believe 988 00:49:25,145 --> 00:49:28,025 that once people pass on, they'll still keep a close eye. 989 00:49:28,085 --> 00:49:29,425 And I think he'd be proud. 990 00:49:30,895 --> 00:49:34,385 - Well, I mean, uh, I feel like when I, when I, when I die 991 00:49:34,385 --> 00:49:39,105 and go to hell and meet him again, , we'll see. 992 00:49:39,945 --> 00:49:43,625 - . Well, thank you so much for being on the show. 993 00:49:43,825 --> 00:49:45,145 I really appreciate your time. 994 00:49:45,665 --> 00:49:47,705 I really, I think it's so important to talk 995 00:49:47,705 --> 00:49:51,065 to people like you because I do think there are people out 996 00:49:51,065 --> 00:49:52,945 there trying to do what you're doing 997 00:49:53,245 --> 00:49:56,065 and hearing from somebody that has made it work, 998 00:49:56,255 --> 00:49:59,545 even though you say, you know, thing, it's maybe not as 999 00:50:00,125 --> 00:50:01,825 hugely successful or financial, 1000 00:50:01,825 --> 00:50:03,225 but you made it a great point. 1001 00:50:03,225 --> 00:50:04,985 That it's supporting the community. 1002 00:50:06,005 --> 00:50:08,305 And if we could just get out of our own way 1003 00:50:08,565 --> 00:50:11,465 and realize that the community, if we start at the community 1004 00:50:12,245 --> 00:50:15,145 and then everything will eventually fall into place, it's, 1005 00:50:15,685 --> 00:50:17,065 it doesn't have to be huge. 1006 00:50:17,595 --> 00:50:19,545 Start with your neighbor, you know? 1007 00:50:20,555 --> 00:50:22,245 - Yeah. I mean, I agree with everything you say, 1008 00:50:22,245 --> 00:50:23,885 and I just, I just, how it's gonna look. 1009 00:50:24,445 --> 00:50:28,805 I just, I don't, I think about it all the time and, 1010 00:50:29,065 --> 00:50:32,005 and it is, I used to think I knew what was happening 1011 00:50:32,345 --> 00:50:35,245 and I, I thought I saw the direction and the path, 1012 00:50:36,435 --> 00:50:37,815 and I think, I think I was right. 1013 00:50:38,555 --> 00:50:39,935 But then the, the, the, 1014 00:50:39,935 --> 00:50:42,575 these big multinational corporations are so powerful 1015 00:50:42,875 --> 00:50:44,655 and they, they are so influential 1016 00:50:45,155 --> 00:50:48,455 and they, they change the way people think 1017 00:50:48,595 --> 00:50:51,055 and they change the way that people are moving things. 1018 00:50:51,835 --> 00:50:54,975 And you know, I just, I just don't know. 1019 00:50:55,455 --> 00:50:58,975 I, I'm, I'm pretty sure that the industrial model 1020 00:50:58,975 --> 00:51:01,575 that's feeding us now is going to end badly, 1021 00:51:02,605 --> 00:51:04,505 but I don't, I don't know what's gonna look like. 1022 00:51:06,225 --> 00:51:08,085 - It won't be able to sustain itself, you mean. 1023 00:51:10,075 --> 00:51:11,765 - Yeah. I mean, I think, I think we're, 1024 00:51:12,085 --> 00:51:13,245 I think we're having, uh, 1025 00:51:13,385 --> 00:51:15,965 too many species going to extinction. 1026 00:51:16,085 --> 00:51:17,685 I think we are changing the weather. 1027 00:51:18,165 --> 00:51:22,525 I think we're, uh, polluting everything. 1028 00:51:23,125 --> 00:51:25,965 I think we, we, I'm, I'm, I'm convinced we'll run out 1029 00:51:25,965 --> 00:51:28,645 of fossil fuel, and I don't mean tomorrow, 1030 00:51:29,465 --> 00:51:31,365 but the path is where it's, 1031 00:51:32,625 --> 00:51:35,365 and I can come up with a lot of other things that are, are 1032 00:51:36,965 --> 00:51:38,565 horrible that I think can happen. 1033 00:51:39,065 --> 00:51:42,935 And, and the things that we can do, you know, 1034 00:51:43,035 --> 00:51:46,335 pop human population, this, you know, we didn't get into 1035 00:51:46,335 --> 00:51:48,975 that, but, you know, the earth has a carrying capacity. 1036 00:51:49,575 --> 00:51:52,335 - I agree. - And I don't know what it is. 1037 00:51:52,955 --> 00:51:55,695 And I don't know if we're halfway there 1038 00:51:55,755 --> 00:51:57,375 or got twice as many as we should have. 1039 00:51:57,455 --> 00:52:01,535 I don't know that, but I know that you can't just keep 1040 00:52:02,255 --> 00:52:06,175 increasing the population, uh, infinitely. 1041 00:52:06,675 --> 00:52:09,855 And it'd be okay that, that, that that's not gonna work. 1042 00:52:10,355 --> 00:52:13,335 - Not when you treat the host the way we treat our host. 1043 00:52:13,465 --> 00:52:15,255 Definitely. That, 1044 00:52:15,315 --> 00:52:17,215 that's something I talk about a lot actually, is 1045 00:52:17,215 --> 00:52:22,135 that perhaps this planet could sustain all these people, 1046 00:52:22,715 --> 00:52:25,855 but not without the partnership of the people to her. 1047 00:52:26,595 --> 00:52:29,055 It, they, we have, we're in, so many 1048 00:52:29,055 --> 00:52:33,095 of us are not in partnership with the land 1049 00:52:33,275 --> 00:52:35,615 or with the mother, if you, if you will. 1050 00:52:35,835 --> 00:52:39,255 And she eventually, she's gonna just spit us all off. 1051 00:52:39,365 --> 00:52:40,975 This is . This is the only, 1052 00:52:41,235 --> 00:52:43,935 that's the only thing left because well, 1053 00:52:43,985 --> 00:52:45,575 - There, let's, let's be clear. 1054 00:52:45,595 --> 00:52:46,935 The earth will be okay. That's 1055 00:52:46,935 --> 00:52:48,015 - What I'm saying. She'll spend 1056 00:52:48,355 --> 00:52:49,355 - The earth - Will be 1057 00:52:49,355 --> 00:52:49,855 - Okay. 1058 00:52:49,855 --> 00:52:51,175 Yeah. She'll, we'll, we'll catch, 1059 00:52:51,515 --> 00:52:53,295 but the earth will be okay. Exactly. 1060 00:52:53,955 --> 00:52:56,255 - The viruses will kick up more notches. 1061 00:52:56,265 --> 00:52:58,015 We're gonna keep losing animals. 1062 00:52:58,155 --> 00:53:01,055 The weather's gonna be intolerable, you know, the elderly 1063 00:53:01,355 --> 00:53:04,295 and the young and the infirm will die off. 1064 00:53:04,595 --> 00:53:06,695 And it's, there's, 1065 00:53:06,765 --> 00:53:11,335 because we don't work together ever, it's so frustrating. 1066 00:53:13,365 --> 00:53:16,425 - Uh, you know, I I, I didn't get into this, 1067 00:53:17,245 --> 00:53:20,105 but when I, I was born in 1954 1068 00:53:20,765 --> 00:53:22,545 and I came up 1069 00:53:23,875 --> 00:53:26,045 that there was wilderness on the planet. 1070 00:53:26,325 --> 00:53:27,405 I didn't get to go to any of it, 1071 00:53:27,465 --> 00:53:32,085 but, you know, the, you know, Canada, parts 1072 00:53:32,105 --> 00:53:34,365 of Canada and parts of the Amazon 1073 00:53:34,545 --> 00:53:36,565 and Africa, there was wilderness. 1074 00:53:38,065 --> 00:53:41,405 And they're just about in any wilderness anymore. 1075 00:53:42,165 --> 00:53:45,965 I mean that you may find a spot that's, but not really. 1076 00:53:47,625 --> 00:53:52,125 And I think we're doing exactly the same thing to rural. 1077 00:53:53,925 --> 00:53:56,845 I think that probably not in my lifetime, 1078 00:53:56,905 --> 00:53:58,045 but probably in your lifetime, 1079 00:53:58,375 --> 00:54:02,045 there won't be any rural anymore. 1080 00:54:02,935 --> 00:54:07,165 It'll be city and the rest of it. 1081 00:54:08,145 --> 00:54:10,795 And yeah, I think that's just, Lord. 1082 00:54:10,915 --> 00:54:12,915 I think that lords everybody's quality of life. 1083 00:54:13,235 --> 00:54:15,235 - I agree with you. I've driven across this country 1084 00:54:15,575 --> 00:54:16,715 and it's a beautiful country, 1085 00:54:16,815 --> 00:54:18,995 and I've driven across it by myself. 1086 00:54:19,745 --> 00:54:21,115 It's probably seven or eight times. 1087 00:54:21,375 --> 00:54:23,755 And every time I do it, I go in a different direction. 1088 00:54:24,355 --> 00:54:25,675 'cause I wanna see my country. 1089 00:54:26,655 --> 00:54:31,515 And it is sad to see driving through these little towns, 1090 00:54:31,615 --> 00:54:35,755 how many are impoverished within an inch of their life, 1091 00:54:36,255 --> 00:54:37,995 or just absolutely shut down. 1092 00:54:38,855 --> 00:54:43,075 - Oh, it, it, rural impoverishment is just incredible. 1093 00:54:43,295 --> 00:54:45,395 And I don't see why people don't see it. 1094 00:54:45,395 --> 00:54:47,595 But we don't, I mean, people don't, people don't. 1095 00:54:48,185 --> 00:54:49,795 Well, what, what, uh, so I looked at 1096 00:54:49,795 --> 00:54:50,875 your website just briefly. 1097 00:54:51,115 --> 00:54:52,875 I didn't spend much time on it. What, what do you do? 1098 00:54:53,075 --> 00:54:55,875 I mean, this, these podcasts is that I do game, 1099 00:54:56,455 --> 00:54:58,595 - Do I do the podcast, but it's ad free, 1100 00:54:58,775 --> 00:55:00,275 so I don't take money for it. 1101 00:55:00,275 --> 00:55:02,915 People sometimes donate, but it's, it's an ad free. 1102 00:55:03,015 --> 00:55:06,275 So, so no money from that. I spend money on it. 1103 00:55:06,415 --> 00:55:08,715 And then I, I'm a painter, an abstract painter, 1104 00:55:08,855 --> 00:55:10,755 and I sell paintings here and there. 1105 00:55:10,935 --> 00:55:14,195 Uh, I have written songs for people like Reba McIntyre 1106 00:55:14,615 --> 00:55:19,035 and Lone Star, but in an era where places like Spotify 1107 00:55:19,375 --> 00:55:22,875 and big music business has basically taken money away from 1108 00:55:22,905 --> 00:55:24,275 songwriters, you don't really 1109 00:55:24,275 --> 00:55:25,395 get any money from that either. 1110 00:55:26,135 --> 00:55:28,635 Uh, and then I just made my first short film 1111 00:55:28,735 --> 00:55:31,515 that's gonna be coming out probably in March mm-Hmm. 1112 00:55:31,515 --> 00:55:33,155 And I'm doing, doing that kind of stuff. 1113 00:55:33,255 --> 00:55:37,055 So I live in the world of storytelling. Yeah. 1114 00:55:37,405 --> 00:55:39,655 It's a, I'm not, I don't have a lot of money. 1115 00:55:40,095 --> 00:55:43,935 I, as you put it, you know, my, I am poor 1116 00:55:45,075 --> 00:55:48,415 on paper, but I have a rich life. 1117 00:55:48,885 --> 00:55:51,255 - Alright, well, I'm, uh, I'm very grateful to you 1118 00:55:51,435 --> 00:55:53,455 for giving me the opportunity to be with you today. 1119 00:55:54,345 --> 00:55:56,925 - I'm so honored that you, that you took the time. 1120 00:55:57,125 --> 00:56:00,045 I know you're a busy guy and I really appreciate it. 1121 00:56:00,065 --> 00:56:01,485 And thank you for the work you do. 1122 00:56:02,035 --> 00:56:03,445 - Well, thank you for the work you do. 1123 00:56:03,675 --> 00:56:05,845 - It's really lovely to meet you. Take care. 1124 00:56:06,065 --> 00:56:09,685 And I will get the word out about white oak pastures. You, 1125 00:56:09,865 --> 00:56:11,925 - You, you are charming person. Thank you very much. 1126 00:56:12,335 --> 00:56:15,965 - Thank you for listening everybody. Bye bye-Bye bye-Bye. 1127 00:56:18,215 --> 00:56:21,445 Reach review and subscribe to Hey, human podcast on iTunes 1128 00:56:21,445 --> 00:56:22,925 or wherever you get your podcasts. 1129 00:56:23,185 --> 00:56:24,365 Thanks. Bye.