Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here.
Thanks for listening to another episode of Hey Human Podcast.
This is episode 378,
and I had a conversation with Mike Farrell. Mike is a producer, director,
and actor,
best known for his role as BJ Honeycutt on the Beloved and Extraordinary
Show Mash. And as Dr.
James Hanssen on Providence among many,
many other roles and programs,
he's also the president of the Board of Death Penalty Focus,
which is committed to the abolition of the death penalty.
He's a human rights and refugee activist,
and he's Goodwill Ambassador for the UN High Commission for Refugees.
He's also an author. I had such a good time talking with Mike.
He's an extraordinary human being and just really
fascinating to talk with. Um, I, it was a delightful conversation.
I'm really excited for you to hear this one. Check out, hey,
human podcast.com for links. And to learn more about my guests in the show,
check out Susan ruth.com.
To learn more about me and my other artistic endeavors,
follow Susan Ruths and hey, human podcast on social media.
Find my albums on Spotify, apple music, Amazon music,
wherever you get your music. And look for my albums all over the place.
All I ever wanted was everything. How to Say Goodbye, surfacing to Breathe.
They're all out there.
Check out my relationships and sex show with sexologist and healthcare
practitioner, Mara Edelman on YouTube, under Are We There yet?
Podcast show rate review, and subscribe to Hey,
human podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast.
And thank you for listening. Be well, be love, be kind.
And here we go.
Mike Ferrell, welcome to Hey, human.
Thank you.
And shout out to Bob Za for connecting us. Yes.
Yes. That was nice of Bob.
Yeah,
he's been on the show and he has introduced me to a lot of really wonderful
folks. Uh, so I was really pleased when he connected us.
Thank you. Me too. Yeah, he's, uh,
Bob's quite terrific and he's really does a lot of good for a lot of really,
really important people. That's, which is, uh, Gary,
Gary Tyler was our com, our common link. And, uh,
I'm sure you've spoken to Gary, so if.
Yeah. He was on the show, what an extraordinary story. And.
Isn't it though, I mean, he, he, he's,
he's the example from me of what's possible and what's wrong
with this bloody system.
Absolutely.
But what, you know, what humans are capable of enduring and, and,
uh, surviving.
Mm-hmm. .
And coming through, coming through whole.
'cause there's so many who are damaged, incredibly damaged. Um, and Gary can't,
can't of avoided damage, but, but somehow he's, uh,
I don't know. There, there's a quality to him that is just quite extraordinary.
I think.
It's the artist.
It's the that's, you know, and, and I think he's, you're right. He, he, um,
he recognizes that and he uses that and it helps him.
This is butterfly concept. You know, I've been in the cocoon for a long time.
, uh, is, is really wonderful.
But even before I knew,
I didn't have any idea about his artistic abilities when I first met him.
And it was just something deeply sweet about him that I, that I responded to.
And, uh, and then the work, of course,
he got involved with immediately helping young people was
right up right up my alley. So I was, I was, yeah.
He has an innate kindness and the thing that strikes me the most about,
and we're gonna get into all of this, uh, uh,
the death penalty and the reform of death penalty and, uh,
and all of that, but it's what an incredible tragedy.
Any time a life is taken a tragedy,
but for somebody that is innocent and was
innocent and was able to maintain not only his dignity,
but a sense of purpose throughout his entire incarceration, and
imagine if that light had been cut out. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. What, what did,
what a what a hole in society that would've left. And, uh,
well, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. We're in agreement there. Well, let's get into you, Mike. Uh,
tell me where did you grow up? What was, uh, childhood, how,
how were you shaped in the beginning?
I was born in Minnesota,
but my folks moved here to Los Angeles when I was quite young. Two, actually.
And, um, I was raised here in West Hollywood,
California before it became a city. It was a, uh,
what they, they called it, I guess a county, unincorporated county strip.
And I, you know, the more I think about it,
the more I'm grateful for how lucky I was to
have come up in this fa you know, I,
I don't know if any family is perfect, but my dad was a hard drinking,
tough talking and tough acting Irish guy,
kind of John Wayne and, and, and capital letters.
And my mom was a, a housewife doing her duty,
uh, and did it extraordinarily. I mean, she raised us,
they raised us, but he was kind of the ruler,
and she was the hands-on person.
And I have, uh,
had older and older sister who passed a few years ago and
have a younger brother and a younger sister who was the baby of the family.
And we, you know, grew up in public schools and, and,
and a neighborhood where there were a lot of kids. And we ,
Flo flowered, I suppose is a word. I'm not sure it's the word, but, uh,
we developed and, and, and you developed with all those, um,
all those lessons. I was a, my,
my folks were very strict Catholics, and I was raised in a Catholic church,
and I was told what you should, and, you know,
thou shalt not do a lot of things and feel a lot of things and say a lot of
things. So there was a kind of constraint.
The church imposed constant, I, I think horrifically kind of, uh,
crippling sanctions. But my dad,
his, he was, um,
he was a very strong and tough man.
He wasn't abusive in the sense of beating us up,
although he used his hands and a dog's leash whenever he
felt that it was necessary to punish.
But there was always a sense of, um,
impending doom, , impending doom over the states in a bit.
But there was always a sense of, okay, if I step outta line here, uh, you know,
this is not gonna be good. So I grew up with that.
And my younger brother was a, a more of a free spirit than I was.
And our baby sister was, um, the apple of my dad's eye,
because we were all light haired, blue eyed until she came along. And he was,
had dark hair and, and brown eyes, and she was his coloring.
So she was sort of his favorite, although she doesn't remember.
It's seriously sad.
She doesn't remember much of that because he died when she was quite young,
when we were all quite young. He had a heart attack and died when I was 17,
and my brother was 15, I guess,
and Kathy was probably nine.
Then it was sort of, kind of find your way, you know,
and for me, uh, being a man was urgently important and necessary.
And one way I was 17,
I was just about to graduate from high school and a buddy of mine,
and I had played the game of how tough were you and how tough you're gonna be,
and what would you have to do? And the draft was staring me in the face. And I,
so I joined the Marines, showed out, prove how tough I am,
and, uh, and, and served, uh,
my time, not happily.
It was Marines was an awful experience, but,
you know, it was a lot like my dad . It was very strict.
It was very demanding.
It expected you to do absolutely what you were told and do the best you could
and the best you could. Probably wasn't good enough.
So you had to do the best you could. Again, . So it, it, it, it,
it laid a lot of, um,
expectations on, and I was pretty young, pretty naive,
19 or 20, I guess, when I got out. And, uh, and I was a gra, you know, I was a,
a marine veteran, God, ,
and the kids I knew who were, had gone to college, many of them.
So I got a job and I tried to figure out what I wanted to be in life
and had always dreamed,
uh, I've sussed it out to the degree that my, my sister,
my older sister Sally used to, uh, she, she was,
I guess five or six years older than I was, and she, um,
bring home movie magazines and the movie
magazines, you know, aside from looking pictures of women, I,
I was able to see that, uh,
that that young people
could, were in that business, were got famous. And with fame, of course,
one understands comes love and attention and respect and all the things that you
want. And so I decided, you know, God,
wouldn't that be great to be an actor? And of course,
you know, if I'd ever said that to my dad, he
he is this, he had a habit of sarcastic comments, and he would've found a, a, a,
a perfect one to nail me with, but he was gone.
So I kind of doped around. I got a job driving a truck,
and I did various things,
but kept sort of wondering and
dreaming and hoping that somehow,
magically I was going be able to be an actor.
I met a guy, uh, gay people in West Hollywood.
Even then, there were a lot of gay people. And, um, it, it became a joke, um,
going to school, going to high school. I never took a bus.
I just stuck up my thumb. And some, almost invariably,
some gay guy would pick me up and gimme a ride, and where you going?
And I'm going to school, and, okay, and would you like to? And I said, no,
thanks. And . And he'd drop me off, you know, no harm, no foul.
I just got a free ride. But this, this, uh, I was,
I was standing on the corner looking for the, waiting for the,
literally waiting for a bus after I finished work one day.
And this man pulled his car, his Cadillac up,
and got out of it and made a kind of silly,
a pretense about having to clean this something off his shoe.
And, and then said, uh, you are waiting for a bus? I said, yeah. And he said,
where are you going? And I said, down in West Hollywood. And he said,
you want a ride? And I said, sure. And, uh, we drove, uh,
along in his Cadillac, and he, uh,
he gave me his card and he said, um,
the conversation came up about being an actor.
You're a good looking young man sort of thing, I suppose.
I don't remember the conversation,
but he gave me his card and turned out he was an agent. I thought, oh, cool.
I can call this agent and, you know, here's my,
the door is opening for me to get into the business. When I got home,
I talked about it. My older sister laughed, and she said, that guy is infamous.
He's a homosexual who's bring, you know,
brings all these young boys, young guys into his,
into his sort of nest and, uh, and watch yourself.
And I said, yeah, I can take care of myself, you know? No worries.
So I called him, and
I guess I don't remember how, where we met or whatever,
but at any rate, he wants, he said, I have, uh,
I an interview for you or a movie. And I said, really?
And he said, yeah. So I thought, well, shit, you know,
here it goes. It's beginning. And, um,
I went on this interview and I met a man who I really, I,
I think, and I don't know for sure that it was Hal Wallace who was a famous
motion picture producer. I'm not sure it was him, but it was a movie,
uh, war movie. I was an ex-marine, blah, blah, blah.
And he said, Henry sent you, Henry Wilson was this man's the agent's name.
And he said, Henry sent you. And I said, yeah. And he said,
are you one of his, um, boys? And I said,
what do you mean? You know, what,
what Henry's Henry's price for having a career is what it is?
And I said, no, no, I'm not. Uh, and he said, well,
let me tell you that every interview you go on that Henry sends you
on, people are gonna assume that that's the case. I mean,
he was really terrific. He was quite straightforward and just warned me.
I mean, he saw the innocence, I guess, and he saw the, the open,
the dreams and the, and the, and the kind of, uh,
almost childish, um, approach I was taking to this whole thing.
And I said, thank you very much. And, um, left.
And I went back to Henry and I said, you, uh, here,
here's what he said. And he said, well,
that's essentially right. He said, everywhere you go in this business,
you're gonna either,
you're gonna have to be willing to compromise one way
or another, um, if you wanna make, uh,
make a name for yourself. And I said, um,
no thank you. Goodbye.
And it was like,
it was really an important lesson for me.
I think one that I had the courage to say no, but also because, um,
it, I was beginning,
seems funny to say it, when I was beginning, and I was 2021 by that time,
to form a sense of, uh,
personal ethics. There were rights and there were wrongs.
And not just what my dad and mom said, not what, just what the church said,
but there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong.
And I wanted to be real clear about what I was doing and who
I presented myself as. Anyway, long story short. But, um,
so then I just kind of kept on sort of wishing and hoping. Uh,
one of the guys I joined the Marines with was working in a gas station on, uh,
sunset Boulevard, on the Sunset Strip, uh, where we, you know,
that was a big deal for us.
We'd go up and down the strip and drive up and down and look at the girls.
honk the horn, but he, but he was working one night, and a guy,
a new guy had come in. He was, um, his name was Bud Boyle.
Never forget him.
Bud was from Prince Edward Island in Canada.
And he had come all the way out to the West Coast because he wanted to be an
actor. And he said, uh, Mike,
I understand you, you're interested in being an actor. And I said, uh, yeah.
And he said, what are you doing about it? And I said, what do you mean ?
And he said, well,
I'm part of an actor's workshop where we go and we work out with somebody who
works. You know, we work scenes and we learn about characters. And we,
he said, uh, I was just scared shitless of the idea, .
But he said, uh, you know, if you're really serious about being an actor,
you might wanna consider something like that. And, and so I went and joined,
went sat in the back robe and joined his, uh,
his actors group workshop. And, you know,
one thing leads to another, and you meet a lot of people, and you learn,
you learn what it's like to stand on stage,
and you know what it's like to do a scene and what, how you
begin to, I guess, develop your craft.
That led to a play. And that led to an agent,
a legitimate agent who could get me some, uh, interviews at least.
And then I got a few small parts. And then, you know, one thing led to another,
and I developed a career which was
ultimately incredibly satisfying and really,
really wonderful. Uh, really,
I consider myself the luckiest actor in the world for having been part of the
television show mash, because it's,
it spoke to all those values I was talking about. And it spoke to the,
in a very dramatic and very impressive way. And, you know,
there were things that happened along the way, but I've just been very lucky.
Were your family members supportive as you were going through that process?
Or did they think, what are you gonna do with your life? You can be an actor.
That's insane.
Well, that was, that was, that would've been my dad's attitude.
My mom was very sweet. She was, um,
of this, you'll learn school, you know, , you're gonna get your,
you're gonna get your nose broken or you're gonna get your head bumped.
You're gonna do whatever, and you, you, but you'll learn. And, uh, and I did,
um, my sister,
my older sister was pretty cynical at first,
and then she was just proud as hell of me. 'cause I made some progress a little,
a little at a time. So the family was, family was
at best neutral. And I mean, at worst, neutral and at best, supportive, uh,
during that process.
Were you talking to your dad along the way, saying, you know, if you were here,
I'm sure you would think I was crazy, but look at me, go.
Uh, I, I didn't have those kinds of conversations,
but I thought about him a lot. And I still think about him a lot. Uh, uh,
I'm sorry
that he didn't last until I could
stand up to him, uh, declare myself, you know,
as an individual, not a,
not a kid that he could push around. But, you know, and, and,
and I also, when I raised my kids, I made sure that they knew that I loved them,
and that they, uh, were welcome
as at a treasured part of my life stuff. He,
the family that he created was, we never, we didn't hug, we didn't talk.
We didn't, we didn't do,
you know, the sort of things that, um,
that I think are essential in a relationship.
But it took me a long time,
and a lot of therapy and a lot of growing up and a lot of
broken bones to to, uh, to come to that place.
Oh, love the therapy. .
. Yeah.
Let's talk about mash. That was an extraordinarily successful show.
Yes, it was.
And I think what strikes me, I had Ken Levine on the show.
Oh, did you? Yeah. Yeah.
It's very funny. Very, very wonderful experience to talk with him.
The thing that really strikes me about mash,
besides the fact that it went on longer than the war it was portraying, uh,
is that it had such a deep, to me sense of,
uh,
morality and understanding of the complication of the human condition.
That it wasn't a black and white conversation.
That's right. It was so nuanced.
Absolutely. So, absolutely so, and, uh, and it was, it was, it was that way by,
um, uh,
through the direction of, uh, Larry Gelbard and,
and Gene Reynolds particularly who created the show,
and Alan, who they, Alan Alder, who they hired,
Alan wanted. Alan is one of the, uh,
one of the smartest and one of the most principled
people I've ever I've ever known. He's, um,
incredibly talented,
but extraordinarily generous in doing what he did for me. For example,
accepting me and making me an equal, um, you know,
almost equal, whatever. But it was, you know,
there was no question about who the star of the show was. Um,
and I certainly had no quarrel with who the star of the show was,
but the, he and I, I, I've told this story a number of times.
I tend to get involved in political and social
issues and things. I was in
Southeast Asia, I guess, anyway,
somewhere in a very impoverished part of the world and came back because
the response I got from the people there who knew the show, one,
the fact that they knew the show, and second, what the show meant to them.
I came back and Alan and I sat together. We, we became very close friends. And,
uh, I, I've forgotten, it was maybe the
second or third year I was on the show,
beginning of that season, we'd, you know,
sit around and talk and kind of say hi and what you've been doing lately.
And I said to Alan, are you,
are you hearing the same thing I'm hearing out there? And he said, yeah, I am.
And I said, this show
really means something to people, not only in this country,
but around the world. And it means what you were just talking about,
it means something about the human value and about peace and about
morality. And, uh, I mean,
just the things that I think we're at the core of what Larry and Jean
set up. But it needed,
it needed that, uh,
it needed reassurance, uh, about the part on the parts of other people.
You know, you've got a television network that all they care about is ratings.
They don't give a damn what you do or say,
except they don't want you to swear , uh,
they used to not want you to swear. Now they don't mind. Anyway. Uh,
he, so he and I sort of talked about it for quite a while,
and then we got the cast together and we said, look,
it's up to us to make sure that this show
continues to live up to what the audience out there believes
it means. And, um, and hold high, that,
that premise that people matter, that blood's not spilled without cost.
That that human beings are on both sides
of any, any disagreement. And, and
right or wrong is sometimes hard to define,
but you have to do what you think is, is the best you can do. And,
and to their credit, everybody,
everybody got it under. Understood. Agreed. And
so I think the last
four or five years of the show,
four years of the show maybe were
partly that I was in it, but were more,
um, focused than the first few years.
And it was intentional and, and the writers got it.
We did stuff, you know, talking about
the human foibles, but, but did it in a way that I,
I can't tell you, I get mail every day,
every day from people still 50 years later talking about the,
the, the show and what it means to them and continues to mean to them. And.
That's great.
Yeah, it is. It's really remarkable.
When you were reading for the part Yeah, BJ, the Cut, did you,
were you going in with with that,
I don't know how to put that exactly, that, that weight,
or had you not quite wrapped your head around that yet? I mean,
'cause it was already a hit show.
It was a hit show. You're right. No, I, it's, it's, uh, I'll tell you a story.
I, um, I was, by that time, I was, um,
doing well in the industry.
I had done two years on a soap. I had done, uh,
one season on a main, uh, uh,
series that was primetime and had done two actually series,
uh, with really wonderful actors.
Broderick Crawford was the star of one of them. And, uh, Anthony Quinn, great.
Anthony Quinn was star of another one.
And I get to work with some really wonderful, talented people.
And then when the Quinn series failed,
in order to do the Quinn series, it was required.
They required that I sign a contract with Universal Studio,
and I thought, Hmm, I'm not sure I wanna do that, but I,
I wanted to work with Quinn. So I said, okay.
And then when the show ended as I knew it would, he was much too big,
much too powerful for television. I thought, well,
maybe they'll let me out of the contract. And of course, they didn't.
They wanted me to do a guest, you know,
guest stars in all the series that they did, and some of the really dopey,
so I, I, I kind of became pecs bad boy on the, on the, on the lot.
I would say, no, I don't wanna do that one. And they'd say,
you don't have the right to to say no. And I said, yeah,
they do . And they'd say, well,
that means you're on suspension. Your contract is,
we're not gonna pay you for that week, or those two weeks, or whatever it is.
I said, okay. So we came to this agreement that I would , but,
but they did. They, they,
they really did give me some really good opportunities to,
to do shows. One, I I, I, I,
I was a friend of mine called me and he said, let's have dinner. And I said,
great, I'd love to see you. And went to his place,
and I knocked on the door and he, he came to door, and he, I said, let's go.
And he said, oh, wait a minute. I, we can't, I can't leave yet.
My favorite show is on. And I said, what's that? And we went in and it was Mash.
And I had, I'd never seen the show.
I was entranced, I, they, there was, there was a scene,
I'll never forget with Gary Bergoff radar, 19 year old, you know,
kid off the farm in Iowa or wherever with
essentially bombs bursting and blood spurting and shit going on, .
And he was sort of trying to keep it all together. And I thought,
what a magnificent, what a magnificent show.
How frigging lucky are those people to be doing that show?
And I just fell in love. And, um,
and then I went back to, to work, you know, I, my, I was doing this or that,
and then I got a, a, a, a call from a producer who said,
I would like you to star in my new series. And I said, well,
can I read the script? And he said, sure. So he sent me the script,
and it was just a silly show, just one of those, uh,
three jokes to a page kind of thing, uh,
just like manufactured humor. I said, thanks,
but no thanks. And he said, you're,
you're turning down the lead in a television series, .
And I said, yeah, yeah, I guess I am. And he said, why?
And I didn't wanna say, well, your show is stupid .
So I said, uh, well, it's not mash.
And he looked at me and I s I said,
what I mean is MASH is about something,
and I wanna do a show that's about something, you know,
not just a show that does jokes. So he, he, you know, he found somebody else,
I'm sure, although I don't think she'll ever got on the air,
but I'll never forget that. 'cause a year later, my agent got a call, said,
Wayne Rogers is thinking about leaving the cast of mash.
We'd like to know if Mike Farrell would be interested in coming over and having
a conversation with us. We don't know that Wayne is going to leave.
We're still trying to work out his con contract, but in, in the event he does,
we have to have somebody to replace him,
and we're gonna see a bunch of actors, and we'd like to see Mike Ferrell.
So he said, can you do that? Can you come over there and meet them? I said,
shit, can I, the question is, can I, I am under contract here at Universal.
And he said, really, that's not gonna hurt to go and have a meeting. And I said,
okay. And I went in and met with Larry, um, gal Barton,
gene Reynolds. And, um, and I think Burt Metcalf at that point,
Burt, I had known Burt slightly. He was a casting director at Universal,
and he was now the associate producer of mash. And at any rate,
we had this conversation where I ,
I felt like I stumbled and mumbled and grumbled,
and farted through the entire thing. I thought I was,
it was the worst interview I'd ever done. And I finally apologized. I said, uh,
listen, I, I'm sorry. I said, I hope, you know,
I'm a professional and I've done a lot of good work,
and I've been involved in things, but I am so in love with this show.
The idea of meeting you guys with the possibility of being a part of it has me,
uh, in, in a panic. And they were wonderful. They were just,
just terrific. And they said, um,
any, would you have any concerns about being a part of being,
doing this? Stepping in where? And, uh,
trapper John had trod. And I said, my one concern is that I,
I wouldn't, uh, be interested in becoming Trapper John.
I think that'd be a big mistake. Um, actor replacing, you know,
we're on another, I said, they said, no, we quite agree with you. Um, they said,
um, you know, it's the military people transferred away.
People get shifted, people die, people whatever. So,
um, uh,
what we have in mind is a, a,
a fellow who,
medical doctor who's married and has a baby at home and is not
going to be a womanizer like Hawkeye. And, and Trapper had been, have been,
how would you feel about that ? I said,
you asked me how I would feel about, uh,
modeling fidelity on national television. I wouldn't mind that at all.
. So, uh, I don't know.
I don't know how many actors they met. I know I got a call
some days later to come in and,
and they asked if I would be willing to do a screen test. And they said,
it's not about whether you can act,
it's about a test with Alan to see kind of how
you're, how you two play together. And I said, absolutely.
And went in and did it, and thought I did a terrible job.
And went home thinking it's a comedy for Christ's sakes.
Why couldn't you have found a way to be funny ?
But but fortunately, I got a call saying, you're the guy.
And, uh.
Well,
there's such a dryness to him and such a grounding to that character that if you
had gone in blazing com, you know, comic guns,
it wouldn't have worked.
No, no, no, no. Of course it wouldn't. And I, but I was just,
that was part of my second guessing myself. Yeah, of course.
Yeah.
Shit, you fool. But oh my gosh. Yeah. So it was great. I mean, it was,
um, and it turned into just a,
just a wonderful goddamn experience. Helen called me that night and he said,
are you free to have dinner? I'd like to have dinner with you. And I said,
absolutely, .
And we sat and talked and talked for hours about what his hopes and
dreams were for the show, and how much he cared about it,
and how important it was that we stay, you know,
the same kind of stuff we talked about later when, uh,
when I came back from Southeast Asia. And
it was such, it was such a wonderful thing for him to do, first of all.
And second, it was, it was really a kind of a leg up for me.
I was suddenly coming into this, uh, to this group that was
reputed in the industry to be a very close family.
And I'm taking the place of one of their , one of their brothers, uh,
that, you know, the cast might hate me.
So Alan's opening the door the way he did was really very generous of him
and, and very impactful to me. And then when I went on the set,
at first guy who walked up to me and said, hello was Gary Bergoff,
the fellow who's I'd seen in that scene, stuck out his hand and said,
welcome aboard. And, and then Loretta and Bill,
and Jamie and Larry, I mean, it was just,
it was just wonderful. And,
and at the point I wanted to get to was the first day,
which was the same thing we did, uh, every show. We,
we would sit around a table and read the script aloud,
and for the writers to hear it, to have a way to think of, feel,
whether,
whether it's certain joke works or if there's something needs to be punched up
or whatever. Anyway, so you start, and Gene Reynolds, who was the director,
said, page one. And we read through the thing,
and there was some laughs and at the end,
people applauded and welcomed Mike and all that stuff. And then Gene said, okay,
page one. And I looked at him, you know,
we had just done that . And he said, oh, Mike, he said,
here's where we go through page by page to see if you have any questions,
any suggestions, any ideas. We just want to hear from you about.
And I thought, honest to God,
I think I've, I think I've died and gone to Heaven.
I had done two years on a soap and two television series,
and nobody had ever asked me, uh,
although I'd offered some thoughts at times, but nobody had ever said,
we want you to give us your take on the script. And I heard people,
I heard people say, I think this joke would work better if Bill did it.
Or How about if we tried this? It was, it was really,
it became what I finally understood to be a creative community.
It was people working together to try and make the show as, as,
as good as it could possibly be. And it never stopped.
I was there for eight years,
and there were eight of the happiest years of my life in terms of my career.
My God. It was, it was,
and remains the finest
experience I've ever, I I've done some,
I've done some really good things before and since,
but nothing will ever reach that,
that, uh, that was the epitome, I guess is the word of,
of what I wanted to be part of in this business.
That's so lovely. And I,
I really enjoy hearing that it was such a collaborative experience as well.
I think that's important for Absolutely. First of all,
that Alan Alda understood what it means to be a leader. Yep. And,
and brought you to dinner. And because that,
that example shines throughout the entire project.
Absolutely. Right.
For him to have a grasp of that, and then for the, for the directors and such,
to know that it is a group effort, that it is so much,
I mean, that's what creation is.
Yeah, absolutely. And,
and there were so many times that that was laid out for, I mean,
a couple times working on scripts. Um, there was one,
I mean, you know, they worked hard. We worked hard. And,
uh, I just think of one in particular that there was a,
a scene that they took out of, uh, out of, uh, research they had done.
They'd gone to Korea and they'd, um,
reached out to people who'd been in the mash, doctors, nurses, and patients.
And so they used a lot of the things they'd found in this research
for as sort of things in the show,
either plots or ideas or moments.
There was one where we sat down and read this script about a bunch,
uh, Hawkeye and, and, and BJ were, um,
really upset that there are a lot of kids,
young kids and soldiers were coming in wounded because this
hot shot officer kept shoving them, pushing them up this hill that was a,
just a terrible
bloodshed bloody battlefield. And we just thought,
God dammit, you know, something, something's wrong here.
And then the officer showed up to say to his guys, come on guys,
you gotta get back in it. And we were, I wanna fix everything and we'll,
I need your, I need you. And we came up with this, uh,
uh, scheme to, um,
buddy up with him, go take him into the swamp, get him drunk on our,
the stuff we fermented in the still. And, uh, tell him,
he give him a mickey, tell him he had a,
was having appendicitis and give him, take a, put him on the table and take him,
take his appendix out, uh,
and take him off the line for a while in the hopes that that would take some,
save some kids' lives. So we read through the script, and at the end of it,
everybody applauded, and we went through the one page one by one,
and we got to that point, and I said, um, yeah, I've got a problem here.
They said, what's that? I said, BJ wouldn't do that.
And they said, well, what do you mean? And I said,
cutting into a,
cutting into a healthy human body is not something that BJ Honeycutt would do.
And they said, well, we got it outta the research. I said, uh,
I'm not saying it didn't happen, .
I'm not saying these guys over there made that choice. I'm saying that the,
the fellow that you and I are building or creating in this series would
not do that. And Alan piped up. He said, Hawkeye would. I said, I get it.
I don't have any problem with that. I'm just telling you the BJ wouldn't,
and we, we must have talked for half an hour. And finally, Bert, uh,
Metcalf said, God, he said,
we got a better show here than we have on the page.
So we did that, and we got him drunk.
And then Alan said, let's get him into the or. And BJ said,
you're not really gonna do that. And he said, God damn right, I am. And BJ said,
no, no, no, man, you can't. And he did.
And he came back in after the surgery, and he said, I said,
how was it? And he said,
it was rip and healthy and looked perfectly fine to me,
and talking about the appendix. And then
they put in the sound of helicopters and wounded were coming, and,
and we looked at each other. And it didn't need to be said.
It was just that what you did didn't stop anything.
Uh, so, but it, the, the, the,
the part about it that stays with me is that they heard me, you know,
they heard mm-hmm.
what I was saying about this character and what he meant to me.
And I thought to everybody else. And, um, and they honored it.
So that's, that's kind of, kind of an,
uh, an example I think of the.
I appreciate too that they brought that character to life as a,
a type of moral compass throughout the series,
and did not ignore the fact that it didn't mean that you were infallible.
That's right. .
But I think that's so important.
No. In fact, absolutely. Yeah. We, well,
we did another scene one time, um, uh,
it was in ra uh, RA radar's or Klinger's office. I forget. I guess it was,
maybe it was after Larry left, and it was Klinger's office.
Alan was on the phone. Oh, no,
no. Yeah. Um, the actress, Blythe,
the Danner came into play a, uh,
traveling nurse who'd come into our, uh, compound on temporary duty.
And she, it turned out, and he,
Hawkeye had had an affair when they were in medical school together.
And suddenly here they were again.
And I think she was married. And suddenly the, the fair blossomed.
And they were, and he said to me, uh, he said, Hawkeye to BJ said, uh,
I, um, haven't been around lately. I said, yeah,
I've been, I've missed you. I've been crying into my pillow. And he said, uh,
do you disapprove? I said, not my place to disapprove. I,
he said, have you ever been unfaithful? And I said, never.
And he said, have you ever been tempted? I said,
tempted iss a different question. And he said, aha, you have it? I said, no,
I just said, tempted is a different question. I didn't say. Anyway,
so it was a joke, and it was a good scene.
And we ended the scene and we went out and Larry Gelbart,
who had written the scene, was there, um, watching. And I said, Larry,
that's a, that was fun. That was great. I really enjoyed it.
But for BJ to say, I've never been tempted
isn't human. I think the joke worked,
but I think,
I think it's important that we recognize that BJ is just as subject to
temptation as everybody else. And a year later,
gene came to me and he said, ,
you remember that conversation you had with Larry about being tempted?
And I said, yeah. And he said, well, how,
how would you feel if BJ fell off the fidelity wagon?
And I said, whoa,
that depends on how it's done. And he said,
okay, let us, let us think about it. And they came back with a script,
script where, um,
and one of the nurses had gotten a Dear Jane from her,
beloved, I guess, and Kelly, I guess, came to me and said,
nurse, whatever is is really having a rough time.
Would you be willing to go talk to her? And I said, sure.
And I went in and we talked and how tough it is. And she said, it's just,
you know, it hurts so much and you're away from the one you love. And,
and she walked toward me and we embraced,
and then suddenly we were kissing and then fade
out. So who knows what happened thereafter, but one can assume,
and the rest of the show was about haw. I saying,
what are you doing? I'm writing Peg about what?
About what I did? No, you're not . He said,
you are not going to write that. We had a fight. It was,
it was fabulous. And, uh,
he, he finally made the point. He said,
you're gonna visit that kind of pain on her when she can do nothing about it.
Tell her when you get home. But not now.
I think that's the one where I got drunk and I punched Hawkeye,
and it was a whole, the whole big deal. .
Such a great show.
Oh, yeah.
Such a great show. So many, it's, look for those who are listening,
if you've never experienced that show, I cannot recommend it enough. It's,
it's brilliantly acted, brilliantly written, brilliantly directed. You,
y'all,
you made choices that were so extraordinary that hadn't even like the,
the perspective from the patient, the person being operated on that episode.
Yeah.
That was incredible.
Wonderful things, really the point of view that was called Yeah. Yeah. And, and
I came in one day in my second year on the show, and I said to Bert,
I've got an idea for an episode. He said, yeah, what is it? And I ran it by him,
and he said, that's terrific. Why don't you go write it ? I said, whoa.
Uh, and I had done some writing, but I, not of the le level. He said,
don't worry about it. We've got a group of, you know, writers here. We go into,
we, you write it down, we go into the room, we talk about it.
But it was that creative community. It was like, whatever you want to do,
you know, we want everything you'll give us.
It was, it was just amazing, really amazing to be part of that.
When you left the show, when, when it finished. Yeah.
What an epic ending. Uh.
Say what.
I've, I'm sure you've been asked this a gajillion times,
but I understand that people who are on sets, especially for a long time,
that they take memorabilia with them. Would there,
was there a part of the set that you took with you? Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. I have it in my office. I don't think it's here anymore. I have it,
I have it done in my, in my office. The sign that,
that was on this, on the swamp, outside the swamp saying, um,
San Francisco, which was shorthand for Mill Valley, where New J was from.
Yeah. But, yeah, no, that was wonderful. That, and I've got my boots and,
you know,
I just read that Alan donated his boots and his dog
tags, uh,
to an auction for a college that he supports,
and he just a ton of money , which is just great.
That's amazing.
Yeah, it is.
Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing all that. That's really, it's.
Oh, yeah. You're welcome. Thank you. It's, um, you know,
I don't know if you just wanted to talk about mash, but, uh, I'm,
as you can tell, I'm always happy to do that.
. Yeah, no, I wanna talk about everything. I mean, uh, if you'll,
if you'll, if you have time, I, I'd like to, now from there, I,
I think it sounds like, especially given that environment,
it had such a, an impact, obviously here at home,
but globally, and it sounds like you started to see the world. I mean,
you were already a Marine, so you saw the world,
but where did,
where did that part of you start to really begin to develop this understanding
that you have a huge humanitarian aspect of who you are?
Because not everybody has that.
I understand that. Yeah. It, it didn't happen by accident.
None of these things happened by accident. But I got married, um,
shortly after I got home, uh, four years, I guess,
after I got home from being a Marine. Um,
and the marriage lasted for about three years, and then it fell apart.
And I was, um, devastated,
just leveled. And, uh,
psychologically, I, I, I was just a wreck. And, uh, a friend of mine
said, uh, he was, he was part of this organization, it is called,
they called it the House. It was actually called the Manhattan Project,
interestingly enough, um, .
Whoa. .
Right? . Um,
and it was r r run by a group of, uh, former, uh,
reforming reformed drug addicts and people out of prisons and people outta
mental institutions, the whole thing, you know, full deal, full on therapy.
And he said, uh, you, you need to go to the, to the house.
And he set up a meeting for me with the two guys.
One was a psychological social worker, and the other was a former addict,
was one of the heads of the place. And he said, um,
you, you need to tell them you wanna be part of it,
and you're gonna have to stand up and make a commitment. And I said,
I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but okay.
So I went and I sat and talked to these guys, and they kept, they kept saying,
um, said, what, what do you want? And I,
I said, I want my wife back, and I want, I wanted this. And I went,
and I said,
what we've discovered is that people who come to us from,
whether it's drugs or out prison or out of jail, out of off the streets,
whatever, want the same three things. They want love,
they want attention, and they want respect. What do you want?
I want my wife and I want my this, and I want to have,
right. Well, we understand that. But what we've found is that
and I, I think back over this now, and I was so,
uh, into my own grief, we, they probably did that five times.
What we understand,
what we've found is that all anybody who is in pain from
whatever wants is to be loved,
to have attention paid and have respect.
What do you want? And I thought, that's what they want me to say.
I said, okay, I want, I wanna be loved.
I wanna have attention, I wanna be respect. And I started to weep. God,
I was just blowing tears. And before I could finish the sentence,
the two of them had leapt up and were holding me.
First time in my life I'd ever been held by a man,
and this was too men. And I
just wept until I was dry. And they said,
okay, the first meeting is Tuesday at, uh, such and such.
We expect you to show up. And I said, I'll be there.
And I spent a year there, um,
with junkies and whores and
drug addicts of all type,
and gay people who couldn't deal with their gayness and, um,
lost people, people out of mental hospitals. Just, it was,
it was quite extraordinary. Really quite extraordinary.
And I remember one early,
what we did a lot of group therapy with tough, tough,
hard people. Some of them,
this guy said something and I,
I said something
back to him, a little stronger than usual.
And he said, who the fuck are you?
And I said, I'm Mike. And he said, what the fuck is a mike?
And I thought, whoa, an excellent question.
. Whoa, that's something ,
I ought to think about that for a while. Oh, man. So that the
over time I became, they, they, they new people that came in.
They called stupid part of the stupid group,
too stupid to know what they wanted. And if you graduated from the stupid group,
uh, you became responsible. And after I,
I challenged Ernie at something, and that made me responsible.
And I moved into the responsible group.
And that meant I went out to prisons with them when we offered this program
to people who were gonna get outta prison and say, or jail, whatever, and say,
look,
it's not gonna do you any good to go back to the same situation that put you
here. We offer this program, give it some thought.
And without touching the pain that brought them there.
Absolutely. So I,
I was there working with these folks and working with myself and, you know,
kind of getting it together,
and I've never forgotten it. Um, and going into prisons really
opened a door for me. I, I, I saw how dehumanizing it is,
and I saw how people were,
became integers. They became numbers, they became
less than human.
And I had always thought the death penalty made no sense, but I thought
at the top of this lousy system, after it dehumanizes all these people,
it then kills them. That's, that's the worst. I mean,
that's the most chicken shit.
And the worst kind of societal decision I can imagine.
This was, well, this was before mash. So, so I, I was,
I was doing, you know, the stuff I was doing,
I was trying to build a career and, and then Mash happened,
and, uh, I oh, oh, I got involved in,
there was a Black Revolution, there was a gay revolution,
there was a Women's Revolution.
And I got involved in all of them because we were doing that stuff at the house.
And it was pointing out how, uh,
how harmful the way society operated was to so many of its
members. Um, so I got, you know,
I went down to Operation Bootstrap downtown after the LA riots,
and I went to
any number of places and got involved in, in, in stuff. And then,
so when MASH happened, I was, I was doing things,
but suddenly I was the star of one of the premier shows on television and
press was interested in what I was doing and
why I was doing it. Uh, so people contacted me.
Um, one was a group, um,
that, uh, uh, works with, uh, refugees around the, around the world.
And I became,
I got associated with them and worked with them and traveled to Southeast Asia
and did a lot of stuff with them, and then became involved, uh,
as their spokesperson.
But one of the things that has been ongoing, and that is as well,
but one of the things that's been ongoing is, um,
a minister called me on the set. I don't know how he got the number,
but he did. And he said, uh, I understand you're against the death penalty.
And I had signed a petition or something saying, yes,
I'm against the death penalty. I said, yeah, I don't,
I don't know what I can do about it, but I'm against it. And he said, I think I,
I'd like to come out and talk to you. And I said, okay. His name's Joe Ingle.
He's, um,
the head of was then the head of the Southern Coalition on jails and prisons
in, uh, Nashville. And, um, he talked, he said,
we in 76,
that it was a decision made by the Supreme Court that reopened the
death chambers. 72. They were stopped nationwide,
and then it was reopened in 76. And, uh,
there were a couple of executions in the late seventies. Um, but we,
we really hadn't gotten going in the
execution business. Hmm. So he said, uh,
we're going to have a bloodbath in this country,
and I need somebody who can get publicity,
get press to help me do my work.
And I said, um, okay.
And he invited me down to Nashville and he took me to my first death row,
which was, um,
not something I'll ever forget. And I've been in a lot of death rows since then.
But, you know, when you're a, a newbie to it,
being in a place with these men in cages, and they were all men,
and they were almost all black or brown. And they were,
some of them were really excited to see me,
and some of them were angry at me for being there.
And some of them were just
moved enough by our presence,
mine and Joe's to, uh, to wanna talk.
And we talked, I've still got a, a guy had gave me a crucifix,
he made out of match sticks that's on my wall down there too. Hmm.
And so I, I started working with Joe, um, with the Southern Coalition.
And at that time I was also working with, um,
organization trying to change the US policy in Central America.
The refugee aid organization that I was working with,
uh, asked me if I would take a load of, uh,
fly to Honduras and take a load of medical supplies to the
camps where their people were working. So I did that and, um,
brought along a couple people, uh,
you know, just one, it's in this life.
These things all sort of thread into each other and make a tapestry of some
kind. The death penalty work is, uh,
is something that I've continued as it had,
as has been the human rights in general. I, I,
I was actually one of the founders of Human Rights Watch in California and
traveled to various parts of the world in
support of the human rights understandings and human rights,
um, covenants.
And the UN asked to me, uh,
along with some others to go to
Somalia when, in 1992, I guess it was when,
uh,
the Marines were sent into Somalia and the country was
in chaos and people were dying by the
bushels. And then, uh, they asked again if I'd go to, um,
and on that, on that trip, uh, we also went to, um,
Bosnia, you know, terrible war going on there.
The Serbs against the Bosnian Muslims.
Genocide.
And then speaking of genocide, asked me to go to Rwanda, uh,
after the slaughter there. So this stuff, you know,
they all leave marks.
I was just gonna ask,
how does one firstly prepare oneself to go into those experiences,
and how,
how do you not carry it with you to the point where it dulls
you to the world now?
Oh, I don't think it dulls you. I think it, um,
heightens your awareness of everything around you.
Not everybody. And what I mean by that is that I think for some,
to have experienced the cruelty that we can inflict upon each other,
some, some folks, their, their response to that would be,
I can't look at it. I can't think of it anymore.
I'm gonna put my head in the sand. Whereas other people, I think, go toward it.
Mm-hmm. go toward it to embrace the,
those that are left in the aftermath and to try and figure out how to keep it
from happening again. Which, I mean, good luck with that. Right.
Human beings have this unfortunate,
innate tendency for cruelty that I, I will never,
even when we talk about the, I'm sort of going amuck here,
but even talking about the death penalty, and I think the irony of
somebody being walked in to be strapped in, let's say lethal injection, to,
to meet their doom,
and on the other side of the wall is the person pushing that button.
So while removing a person that you feel is unworthy of living life
anymore because they took someone's life,
you're creating a murderer at the same time. Right. There's no,
there's literally no sense to that whatsoever.
I couldn't agree more, no sense to it. And it is terribly destructive,
terribly destructive of everybody involved in the process. That, and I, I,
I speak a lot on the subject, so I, and I cite, um,
Dr. Um, rush,
one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence,
who was anti-slavery and, uh, a medical doctor. Um,
and he opened something called the Pennsylvania Prison Project.
And he was avowedly anti-coal punishment. And he said that
killing another human being, brutalizes,
everyone associated with the process. And I think that's what,
that's what's happening to our society.
We are continuing to re brutalize ourselves and worsen ourselves
as a result. So, you know,
it's trying to find that little moment of
openness in somebody that says this.
You don't have to be afraid, or you can be afraid if you choose,
but understand that your fear is what's keeping you from accepting the reality
of the good around you. And, you know, join us.
We've got ways in which we can stop this, this.
And then there's those who are indifferent to it. All right. Which is yeah.
Is even more terrifying to be indifferent to something like that.
Like I agree. I agree. Uh, it's the antagonists that are,
that are easiest to deal with,
the tho those who are indifferent are the hardest to get through to.
Why do you think it is? You can only speak for yourself,
and we can try and understand why other people think the way they do, but
why do you think it is that the idea of humanity and being humane has,
maybe it always has been. Uh, I haven't been around forever or anything,
but that, that it's been politicized so much.
Uh, politicized is a good word. Um, uh,
factional, factionalism, you know, you, you, you, you, you find yourself,
um, or you one tends to find oneself
allying with people who see things sort of in a manner that's
less painful than the ones that see things in a manner that's more painful.
And instead of just, you know, dealing ,
dealing with it on a pain scale instead of opening up and just sort of allowing
yourself to be present and recognize. I, I,
I, I grow tired of saying that all human beings want the same thing, love,
attention, and respect, and without them,
people turn into human pretzels,
trying to get some sort of vestige of
what those real things might offer. You know,
stick needles in your arms or attack others, or do whatever you will.
Just understanding that you're lovable,
that you deserve to be loved, that you deserve to be,
uh, respected and to,
and that you deserve to have attention paid God, what a,
what an extraordinary understanding.
It's, if I don't have that feeling in myself,
it's going to be really easy to turn my back on another.
Absolutely. Abso yeah.
Absolutely. Are you still figuring out who the fuck a mic is?
It becomes more open mo more, uh,
clear to me regularly, but it's, yeah. I'm still in the process.
As a person who was raised Catholic, do you, do you believe,
I'm not gonna ask you what your faith is because I think that's such a nebulous
question, but what do you believe in a higher power or higher
consciousness to it all?
Yeah. What, whatever it is. I think there's something sort of higher,
whether it be the acknowledgement of your own power,
whether it be the acknowledgement of something else that's out there that
can steer you in the right direction. I don't know.
What I know is it's worth
considering and working toward
if not figuring it out, you know, maybe,
maybe figuring it out is too big a trip,
but it's worth toward acting as if.
Acting like that. Yeah.
Can you let people know the best way to find you, your organizations where,
how can they dig in?
Sure. Death Penalty focus is at, um, death penalty.org.
That'll, that'll get you right to us. Uh,
concern America is Concern america.org.
Um, human Rights watch, everybody knows,
I think it's, uh, human Rights Watch is based in, uh,
based in New York, but operates worldwide. And I,
I was lucky enough to be part of the foundation of it here on the West coast,
um,
because of the work I had been doing and that we were doing. Uh,
you know, but there's, it's not just our organizations.
There are a lot of good organizations out there, amnesty National.
I keep a really solid links page on hey,
human podcast.com with things that we've talked about and how to find them.
And I know you've written books and,
and so all that information I'll compile so it's easy for people to find.
Oh, that's very sweet. Thank you. Yeah.
Thank you so much for your time.
Oh, thank you so much for caring enough to ask for it. That's, uh, you know, I,
I,
I wasn't sure was Bob had in mind when he recommended me,
but I thought this sounds interesting, so. Sure.
Yeah. I really appreciate it. And thank you for listening, everybody.
You've been very generous with your time and with your, your very,
very good questions. And your interest.
Your interest is really appreciate it.
Thank you. I look, I,
I have an idea of what the world is capable of.
I'd like to see all of us get there.
would be great.
In my lifetime. Who knows? I, I don't know. But I know that it's,
it does start with exactly that attention,
love and respect space of listening too.
I mean, I think we're so busy talking over each other. Yeah.
And I, and I know that, that cacophony is,
is placed so that we don't ever have to get so quiet that we hear ourselves
thank.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
You know, and it's my goal to help facilitate
conversations where people might listen and, and think, oh, oh, maybe,
maybe I can think about that just a little tiny bit and just open that window
just a little bit. You know?
Good for you for doing this. This is, this is, this is important work.
Yeah. I feel like it is. Wonderful.
Thank.
You. Thank you so much. It's really been an honor and a delight to talk to you.
And thank you for just being on the planet and making it better.
Well, it's a thrill for me. Thank you very much. You, uh, you give me hope.
. Have a wonderful day.
You too. Bye bye.
Rate review and subscribe to, Hey,
human podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks. Bye.
.