1 00:00:07,980 --> 00:00:10,720 Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan Ruth here. 2 00:00:10,780 --> 00:00:14,600 Thanks for listening to another episode of Hey Human Podcast. 3 00:00:15,710 --> 00:00:17,880 This is episode 378, 4 00:00:18,540 --> 00:00:23,480 and I had a conversation with Mike Farrell. Mike is a producer, director, 5 00:00:23,620 --> 00:00:24,453 and actor, 6 00:00:24,830 --> 00:00:29,600 best known for his role as BJ Honeycutt on the Beloved and Extraordinary 7 00:00:29,710 --> 00:00:32,320 Show Mash. And as Dr. 8 00:00:32,330 --> 00:00:35,360 James Hanssen on Providence among many, 9 00:00:35,390 --> 00:00:37,720 many other roles and programs, 10 00:00:38,470 --> 00:00:42,240 he's also the president of the Board of Death Penalty Focus, 11 00:00:42,690 --> 00:00:45,960 which is committed to the abolition of the death penalty. 12 00:00:46,670 --> 00:00:49,240 He's a human rights and refugee activist, 13 00:00:49,700 --> 00:00:53,440 and he's Goodwill Ambassador for the UN High Commission for Refugees. 14 00:00:54,070 --> 00:00:58,720 He's also an author. I had such a good time talking with Mike. 15 00:00:59,190 --> 00:01:03,360 He's an extraordinary human being and just really 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,480 fascinating to talk with. Um, I, it was a delightful conversation. 17 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:10,960 I'm really excited for you to hear this one. Check out, hey, 18 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:15,680 human podcast.com for links. And to learn more about my guests in the show, 19 00:01:16,370 --> 00:01:18,000 check out Susan ruth.com. 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,600 To learn more about me and my other artistic endeavors, 21 00:01:20,820 --> 00:01:24,560 follow Susan Ruths and hey, human podcast on social media. 22 00:01:25,270 --> 00:01:28,320 Find my albums on Spotify, apple music, Amazon music, 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,280 wherever you get your music. And look for my albums all over the place. 24 00:01:32,900 --> 00:01:36,720 All I ever wanted was everything. How to Say Goodbye, surfacing to Breathe. 25 00:01:36,750 --> 00:01:37,680 They're all out there. 26 00:01:38,210 --> 00:01:42,280 Check out my relationships and sex show with sexologist and healthcare 27 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,880 practitioner, Mara Edelman on YouTube, under Are We There yet? 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,120 Podcast show rate review, and subscribe to Hey, 29 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,280 human podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. 30 00:01:53,300 --> 00:01:57,920 And thank you for listening. Be well, be love, be kind. 31 00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:00,240 And here we go. 32 00:02:02,550 --> 00:02:04,480 Mike Ferrell, welcome to Hey, human. 33 00:02:04,970 --> 00:02:05,803 Thank you. 34 00:02:06,220 --> 00:02:09,160 And shout out to Bob Za for connecting us. Yes. 35 00:02:09,660 --> 00:02:10,880 Yes. That was nice of Bob. 36 00:02:11,350 --> 00:02:11,710 Yeah, 37 00:02:11,710 --> 00:02:15,480 he's been on the show and he has introduced me to a lot of really wonderful 38 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,800 folks. Uh, so I was really pleased when he connected us. 39 00:02:20,250 --> 00:02:22,360 Thank you. Me too. Yeah, he's, uh, 40 00:02:22,530 --> 00:02:26,800 Bob's quite terrific and he's really does a lot of good for a lot of really, 41 00:02:26,940 --> 00:02:30,760 really important people. That's, which is, uh, Gary, 42 00:02:31,190 --> 00:02:34,200 Gary Tyler was our com, our common link. And, uh, 43 00:02:34,780 --> 00:02:36,600 I'm sure you've spoken to Gary, so if. 44 00:02:36,710 --> 00:02:40,280 Yeah. He was on the show, what an extraordinary story. And. 45 00:02:40,730 --> 00:02:43,480 Isn't it though, I mean, he, he, he's, 46 00:02:43,590 --> 00:02:48,480 he's the example from me of what's possible and what's wrong 47 00:02:48,590 --> 00:02:50,320 with this bloody system. 48 00:02:51,650 --> 00:02:52,483 Absolutely. 49 00:02:52,710 --> 00:02:56,330 But what, you know, what humans are capable of enduring and, and, 50 00:02:57,800 --> 00:02:59,020 uh, surviving. 51 00:02:59,620 --> 00:03:00,453 Mm-hmm. . 52 00:03:00,580 --> 00:03:02,600 And coming through, coming through whole. 53 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,280 'cause there's so many who are damaged, incredibly damaged. Um, and Gary can't, 54 00:03:07,290 --> 00:03:12,070 can't of avoided damage, but, but somehow he's, uh, 55 00:03:12,590 --> 00:03:15,510 I don't know. There, there's a quality to him that is just quite extraordinary. 56 00:03:15,630 --> 00:03:16,463 I think. 57 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,090 It's the artist. 58 00:03:19,140 --> 00:03:23,670 It's the that's, you know, and, and I think he's, you're right. He, he, um, 59 00:03:24,330 --> 00:03:28,790 he recognizes that and he uses that and it helps him. 60 00:03:29,420 --> 00:03:32,510 This is butterfly concept. You know, I've been in the cocoon for a long time. 61 00:03:32,750 --> 00:03:36,640 , uh, is, is really wonderful. 62 00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:38,160 But even before I knew, 63 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,240 I didn't have any idea about his artistic abilities when I first met him. 64 00:03:42,660 --> 00:03:46,480 And it was just something deeply sweet about him that I, that I responded to. 65 00:03:46,580 --> 00:03:49,450 And, uh, and then the work, of course, 66 00:03:49,450 --> 00:03:53,010 he got involved with immediately helping young people was 67 00:03:55,010 --> 00:03:57,800 right up right up my alley. So I was, I was, yeah. 68 00:03:58,180 --> 00:04:02,000 He has an innate kindness and the thing that strikes me the most about, 69 00:04:02,660 --> 00:04:04,960 and we're gonna get into all of this, uh, uh, 70 00:04:05,380 --> 00:04:09,760 the death penalty and the reform of death penalty and, uh, 71 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,920 and all of that, but it's what an incredible tragedy. 72 00:04:14,980 --> 00:04:17,200 Any time a life is taken a tragedy, 73 00:04:17,460 --> 00:04:22,040 but for somebody that is innocent and was 74 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,240 innocent and was able to maintain not only his dignity, 75 00:04:26,140 --> 00:04:30,320 but a sense of purpose throughout his entire incarceration, and 76 00:04:32,190 --> 00:04:35,840 imagine if that light had been cut out. Yeah. 77 00:04:36,150 --> 00:04:38,370 Yeah, yeah. What, what did, 78 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,970 what a what a hole in society that would've left. And, uh, 79 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:45,570 well, yeah, yeah. 80 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,570 Yeah. We're in agreement there. Well, let's get into you, Mike. Uh, 81 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,090 tell me where did you grow up? What was, uh, childhood, how, 82 00:04:53,150 --> 00:04:54,810 how were you shaped in the beginning? 83 00:04:55,930 --> 00:04:58,530 I was born in Minnesota, 84 00:04:58,590 --> 00:05:03,290 but my folks moved here to Los Angeles when I was quite young. Two, actually. 85 00:05:03,910 --> 00:05:06,450 And, um, I was raised here in West Hollywood, 86 00:05:06,580 --> 00:05:10,370 California before it became a city. It was a, uh, 87 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:15,210 what they, they called it, I guess a county, unincorporated county strip. 88 00:05:17,030 --> 00:05:19,250 And I, you know, the more I think about it, 89 00:05:19,310 --> 00:05:24,180 the more I'm grateful for how lucky I was to 90 00:05:24,180 --> 00:05:28,660 have come up in this fa you know, I, 91 00:05:28,780 --> 00:05:33,660 I don't know if any family is perfect, but my dad was a hard drinking, 92 00:05:33,830 --> 00:05:37,340 tough talking and tough acting Irish guy, 93 00:05:37,490 --> 00:05:41,180 kind of John Wayne and, and, and capital letters. 94 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,560 And my mom was a, a housewife doing her duty, 95 00:05:46,940 --> 00:05:51,040 uh, and did it extraordinarily. I mean, she raised us, 96 00:05:51,350 --> 00:05:55,690 they raised us, but he was kind of the ruler, 97 00:05:55,750 --> 00:05:59,540 and she was the hands-on person. 98 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:01,033 And I have, uh, 99 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:06,460 had older and older sister who passed a few years ago and 100 00:06:07,090 --> 00:06:10,180 have a younger brother and a younger sister who was the baby of the family. 101 00:06:10,970 --> 00:06:14,390 And we, you know, grew up in public schools and, and, 102 00:06:14,530 --> 00:06:18,510 and a neighborhood where there were a lot of kids. And we , 103 00:06:19,370 --> 00:06:23,830 Flo flowered, I suppose is a word. I'm not sure it's the word, but, uh, 104 00:06:24,050 --> 00:06:28,150 we developed and, and, and you developed with all those, um, 105 00:06:30,110 --> 00:06:34,170 all those lessons. I was a, my, 106 00:06:34,270 --> 00:06:37,970 my folks were very strict Catholics, and I was raised in a Catholic church, 107 00:06:38,190 --> 00:06:41,250 and I was told what you should, and, you know, 108 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:45,490 thou shalt not do a lot of things and feel a lot of things and say a lot of 109 00:06:45,490 --> 00:06:48,530 things. So there was a kind of constraint. 110 00:06:48,910 --> 00:06:53,890 The church imposed constant, I, I think horrifically kind of, uh, 111 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,370 crippling sanctions. But my dad, 112 00:06:59,030 --> 00:07:02,520 his, he was, um, 113 00:07:03,180 --> 00:07:07,980 he was a very strong and tough man. 114 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,460 He wasn't abusive in the sense of beating us up, 115 00:07:11,180 --> 00:07:16,120 although he used his hands and a dog's leash whenever he 116 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,990 felt that it was necessary to punish. 117 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,300 But there was always a sense of, um, 118 00:07:24,290 --> 00:07:28,700 impending doom, , impending doom over the states in a bit. 119 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:32,260 But there was always a sense of, okay, if I step outta line here, uh, you know, 120 00:07:32,330 --> 00:07:35,140 this is not gonna be good. So I grew up with that. 121 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,980 And my younger brother was a, a more of a free spirit than I was. 122 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,300 And our baby sister was, um, the apple of my dad's eye, 123 00:07:45,300 --> 00:07:50,180 because we were all light haired, blue eyed until she came along. And he was, 124 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:55,060 had dark hair and, and brown eyes, and she was his coloring. 125 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,310 So she was sort of his favorite, although she doesn't remember. 126 00:07:59,310 --> 00:08:00,130 It's seriously sad. 127 00:08:00,130 --> 00:08:03,070 She doesn't remember much of that because he died when she was quite young, 128 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:08,370 when we were all quite young. He had a heart attack and died when I was 17, 129 00:08:08,550 --> 00:08:11,630 and my brother was 15, I guess, 130 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,100 and Kathy was probably nine. 131 00:08:16,610 --> 00:08:19,140 Then it was sort of, kind of find your way, you know, 132 00:08:20,790 --> 00:08:25,690 and for me, uh, being a man was urgently important and necessary. 133 00:08:25,790 --> 00:08:28,050 And one way I was 17, 134 00:08:28,370 --> 00:08:31,890 I was just about to graduate from high school and a buddy of mine, 135 00:08:31,890 --> 00:08:36,650 and I had played the game of how tough were you and how tough you're gonna be, 136 00:08:36,670 --> 00:08:40,890 and what would you have to do? And the draft was staring me in the face. And I, 137 00:08:41,230 --> 00:08:45,130 so I joined the Marines, showed out, prove how tough I am, 138 00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:50,650 and, uh, and, and served, uh, 139 00:08:52,430 --> 00:08:55,050 my time, not happily. 140 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,700 It was Marines was an awful experience, but, 141 00:09:00,700 --> 00:09:03,840 you know, it was a lot like my dad . It was very strict. 142 00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:06,120 It was very demanding. 143 00:09:06,700 --> 00:09:11,160 It expected you to do absolutely what you were told and do the best you could 144 00:09:12,020 --> 00:09:14,720 and the best you could. Probably wasn't good enough. 145 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:19,040 So you had to do the best you could. Again, . So it, it, it, it, 146 00:09:19,180 --> 00:09:20,720 it laid a lot of, um, 147 00:09:23,750 --> 00:09:28,110 expectations on, and I was pretty young, pretty naive, 148 00:09:29,470 --> 00:09:33,480 19 or 20, I guess, when I got out. And, uh, and I was a gra, you know, I was a, 149 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,120 a marine veteran, God, , 150 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:42,560 and the kids I knew who were, had gone to college, many of them. 151 00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:47,160 So I got a job and I tried to figure out what I wanted to be in life 152 00:09:49,850 --> 00:09:51,590 and had always dreamed, 153 00:09:55,220 --> 00:09:58,080 uh, I've sussed it out to the degree that my, my sister, 154 00:09:58,220 --> 00:10:02,320 my older sister Sally used to, uh, she, she was, 155 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:07,040 I guess five or six years older than I was, and she, um, 156 00:10:07,450 --> 00:10:11,810 bring home movie magazines and the movie 157 00:10:12,170 --> 00:10:15,250 magazines, you know, aside from looking pictures of women, I, 158 00:10:15,450 --> 00:10:18,170 I was able to see that, uh, 159 00:10:20,610 --> 00:10:23,790 that that young people 160 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:31,070 could, were in that business, were got famous. And with fame, of course, 161 00:10:31,610 --> 00:10:35,190 one understands comes love and attention and respect and all the things that you 162 00:10:35,190 --> 00:10:40,130 want. And so I decided, you know, God, 163 00:10:40,130 --> 00:10:44,460 wouldn't that be great to be an actor? And of course, 164 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,340 you know, if I'd ever said that to my dad, he 165 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:55,020 he is this, he had a habit of sarcastic comments, and he would've found a, a, a, 166 00:10:55,620 --> 00:11:00,190 a perfect one to nail me with, but he was gone. 167 00:11:02,010 --> 00:11:04,910 So I kind of doped around. I got a job driving a truck, 168 00:11:05,050 --> 00:11:06,750 and I did various things, 169 00:11:07,010 --> 00:11:10,460 but kept sort of wondering and 170 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:15,240 dreaming and hoping that somehow, 171 00:11:15,510 --> 00:11:18,080 magically I was going be able to be an actor. 172 00:11:20,210 --> 00:11:25,130 I met a guy, uh, gay people in West Hollywood. 173 00:11:25,130 --> 00:11:30,010 Even then, there were a lot of gay people. And, um, it, it became a joke, um, 174 00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:34,450 going to school, going to high school. I never took a bus. 175 00:11:34,730 --> 00:11:38,450 I just stuck up my thumb. And some, almost invariably, 176 00:11:38,450 --> 00:11:42,130 some gay guy would pick me up and gimme a ride, and where you going? 177 00:11:42,190 --> 00:11:46,010 And I'm going to school, and, okay, and would you like to? And I said, no, 178 00:11:46,010 --> 00:11:50,610 thanks. And . And he'd drop me off, you know, no harm, no foul. 179 00:11:50,770 --> 00:11:53,900 I just got a free ride. But this, this, uh, I was, 180 00:11:54,060 --> 00:11:57,940 I was standing on the corner looking for the, waiting for the, 181 00:11:57,970 --> 00:12:00,540 literally waiting for a bus after I finished work one day. 182 00:12:01,530 --> 00:12:04,830 And this man pulled his car, his Cadillac up, 183 00:12:04,970 --> 00:12:09,210 and got out of it and made a kind of silly, 184 00:12:10,410 --> 00:12:15,000 a pretense about having to clean this something off his shoe. 185 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:20,180 And, and then said, uh, you are waiting for a bus? I said, yeah. And he said, 186 00:12:20,180 --> 00:12:24,100 where are you going? And I said, down in West Hollywood. And he said, 187 00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:27,460 you want a ride? And I said, sure. And, uh, we drove, uh, 188 00:12:28,430 --> 00:12:31,620 along in his Cadillac, and he, uh, 189 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,860 he gave me his card and he said, um, 190 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,140 the conversation came up about being an actor. 191 00:12:39,140 --> 00:12:41,660 You're a good looking young man sort of thing, I suppose. 192 00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:43,300 I don't remember the conversation, 193 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:48,540 but he gave me his card and turned out he was an agent. I thought, oh, cool. 194 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:50,900 I can call this agent and, you know, here's my, 195 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,660 the door is opening for me to get into the business. When I got home, 196 00:12:55,780 --> 00:12:59,940 I talked about it. My older sister laughed, and she said, that guy is infamous. 197 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:03,820 He's a homosexual who's bring, you know, 198 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:06,980 brings all these young boys, young guys into his, 199 00:13:07,490 --> 00:13:12,060 into his sort of nest and, uh, and watch yourself. 200 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,220 And I said, yeah, I can take care of myself, you know? No worries. 201 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:17,580 So I called him, and 202 00:13:19,330 --> 00:13:23,890 I guess I don't remember how, where we met or whatever, 203 00:13:23,890 --> 00:13:28,070 but at any rate, he wants, he said, I have, uh, 204 00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:33,110 I an interview for you or a movie. And I said, really? 205 00:13:33,890 --> 00:13:38,560 And he said, yeah. So I thought, well, shit, you know, 206 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:41,240 here it goes. It's beginning. And, um, 207 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,750 I went on this interview and I met a man who I really, I, 208 00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:51,750 I think, and I don't know for sure that it was Hal Wallace who was a famous 209 00:13:52,010 --> 00:13:56,190 motion picture producer. I'm not sure it was him, but it was a movie, 210 00:13:57,310 --> 00:14:01,210 uh, war movie. I was an ex-marine, blah, blah, blah. 211 00:14:02,730 --> 00:14:06,590 And he said, Henry sent you, Henry Wilson was this man's the agent's name. 212 00:14:06,590 --> 00:14:10,320 And he said, Henry sent you. And I said, yeah. And he said, 213 00:14:10,540 --> 00:14:15,310 are you one of his, um, boys? And I said, 214 00:14:16,820 --> 00:14:19,670 what do you mean? You know, what, 215 00:14:20,060 --> 00:14:23,470 what Henry's Henry's price for having a career is what it is? 216 00:14:24,770 --> 00:14:29,100 And I said, no, no, I'm not. Uh, and he said, well, 217 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:34,060 let me tell you that every interview you go on that Henry sends you 218 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,780 on, people are gonna assume that that's the case. I mean, 219 00:14:37,780 --> 00:14:42,380 he was really terrific. He was quite straightforward and just warned me. 220 00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:46,440 I mean, he saw the innocence, I guess, and he saw the, the open, 221 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,320 the dreams and the, and the, and the kind of, uh, 222 00:14:50,730 --> 00:14:55,230 almost childish, um, approach I was taking to this whole thing. 223 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:01,180 And I said, thank you very much. And, um, left. 224 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:06,070 And I went back to Henry and I said, you, uh, here, 225 00:15:06,090 --> 00:15:09,000 here's what he said. And he said, well, 226 00:15:09,950 --> 00:15:13,410 that's essentially right. He said, everywhere you go in this business, 227 00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:14,150 you're gonna either, 228 00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:18,960 you're gonna have to be willing to compromise one way 229 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,150 or another, um, if you wanna make, uh, 230 00:15:23,620 --> 00:15:27,830 make a name for yourself. And I said, um, 231 00:15:28,850 --> 00:15:32,410 no thank you. Goodbye. 232 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:35,580 And it was like, 233 00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:39,790 it was really an important lesson for me. 234 00:15:39,910 --> 00:15:44,240 I think one that I had the courage to say no, but also because, um, 235 00:15:47,890 --> 00:15:51,110 it, I was beginning, 236 00:15:53,490 --> 00:15:58,200 seems funny to say it, when I was beginning, and I was 2021 by that time, 237 00:16:00,630 --> 00:16:02,810 to form a sense of, uh, 238 00:16:04,220 --> 00:16:08,760 personal ethics. There were rights and there were wrongs. 239 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,960 And not just what my dad and mom said, not what, just what the church said, 240 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,840 but there were things that were right and there were things that were wrong. 241 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:21,170 And I wanted to be real clear about what I was doing and who 242 00:16:21,330 --> 00:16:26,090 I presented myself as. Anyway, long story short. But, um, 243 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,260 so then I just kind of kept on sort of wishing and hoping. Uh, 244 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,460 one of the guys I joined the Marines with was working in a gas station on, uh, 245 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,340 sunset Boulevard, on the Sunset Strip, uh, where we, you know, 246 00:16:40,770 --> 00:16:41,980 that was a big deal for us. 247 00:16:42,010 --> 00:16:46,120 We'd go up and down the strip and drive up and down and look at the girls. 248 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:51,440 honk the horn, but he, but he was working one night, and a guy, 249 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,800 a new guy had come in. He was, um, his name was Bud Boyle. 250 00:16:56,090 --> 00:16:57,080 Never forget him. 251 00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:02,480 Bud was from Prince Edward Island in Canada. 252 00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:08,440 And he had come all the way out to the West Coast because he wanted to be an 253 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,000 actor. And he said, uh, Mike, 254 00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:17,200 I understand you, you're interested in being an actor. And I said, uh, yeah. 255 00:17:18,250 --> 00:17:22,230 And he said, what are you doing about it? And I said, what do you mean ? 256 00:17:23,610 --> 00:17:24,870 And he said, well, 257 00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:28,870 I'm part of an actor's workshop where we go and we work out with somebody who 258 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,070 works. You know, we work scenes and we learn about characters. And we, 259 00:17:33,610 --> 00:17:38,030 he said, uh, I was just scared shitless of the idea, . 260 00:17:38,770 --> 00:17:42,190 But he said, uh, you know, if you're really serious about being an actor, 261 00:17:42,210 --> 00:17:45,070 you might wanna consider something like that. And, and so I went and joined, 262 00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:48,800 went sat in the back robe and joined his, uh, 263 00:17:49,980 --> 00:17:54,120 his actors group workshop. And, you know, 264 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,320 one thing leads to another, and you meet a lot of people, and you learn, 265 00:17:57,540 --> 00:18:00,320 you learn what it's like to stand on stage, 266 00:18:00,340 --> 00:18:03,840 and you know what it's like to do a scene and what, how you 267 00:18:05,850 --> 00:18:09,280 begin to, I guess, develop your craft. 268 00:18:10,110 --> 00:18:12,520 That led to a play. And that led to an agent, 269 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,320 a legitimate agent who could get me some, uh, interviews at least. 270 00:18:17,420 --> 00:18:21,400 And then I got a few small parts. And then, you know, one thing led to another, 271 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,200 and I developed a career which was 272 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,600 ultimately incredibly satisfying and really, 273 00:18:30,270 --> 00:18:32,090 really wonderful. Uh, really, 274 00:18:33,890 --> 00:18:37,330 I consider myself the luckiest actor in the world for having been part of the 275 00:18:37,330 --> 00:18:40,370 television show mash, because it's, 276 00:18:40,470 --> 00:18:43,570 it spoke to all those values I was talking about. And it spoke to the, 277 00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:48,730 in a very dramatic and very impressive way. And, you know, 278 00:18:48,730 --> 00:18:53,570 there were things that happened along the way, but I've just been very lucky. 279 00:18:54,450 --> 00:18:58,260 Were your family members supportive as you were going through that process? 280 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:01,860 Or did they think, what are you gonna do with your life? You can be an actor. 281 00:19:01,860 --> 00:19:02,693 That's insane. 282 00:19:03,690 --> 00:19:06,660 Well, that was, that was, that would've been my dad's attitude. 283 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,340 My mom was very sweet. She was, um, 284 00:19:11,790 --> 00:19:16,130 of this, you'll learn school, you know, , you're gonna get your, 285 00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:20,690 you're gonna get your nose broken or you're gonna get your head bumped. 286 00:19:20,690 --> 00:19:25,450 You're gonna do whatever, and you, you, but you'll learn. And, uh, and I did, 287 00:19:25,790 --> 00:19:27,610 um, my sister, 288 00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:31,450 my older sister was pretty cynical at first, 289 00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:36,410 and then she was just proud as hell of me. 'cause I made some progress a little, 290 00:19:36,690 --> 00:19:40,890 a little at a time. So the family was, family was 291 00:19:42,510 --> 00:19:46,170 at best neutral. And I mean, at worst, neutral and at best, supportive, uh, 292 00:19:46,190 --> 00:19:47,090 during that process. 293 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,450 Were you talking to your dad along the way, saying, you know, if you were here, 294 00:19:52,550 --> 00:19:56,010 I'm sure you would think I was crazy, but look at me, go. 295 00:19:56,630 --> 00:19:58,890 Uh, I, I didn't have those kinds of conversations, 296 00:19:58,890 --> 00:20:02,170 but I thought about him a lot. And I still think about him a lot. Uh, uh, 297 00:20:02,270 --> 00:20:03,103 I'm sorry 298 00:20:04,930 --> 00:20:09,260 that he didn't last until I could 299 00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:13,700 stand up to him, uh, declare myself, you know, 300 00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:16,980 as an individual, not a, 301 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:23,200 not a kid that he could push around. But, you know, and, and, 302 00:20:23,220 --> 00:20:27,960 and I also, when I raised my kids, I made sure that they knew that I loved them, 303 00:20:28,060 --> 00:20:31,210 and that they, uh, were welcome 304 00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:36,930 as at a treasured part of my life stuff. He, 305 00:20:38,730 --> 00:20:43,110 the family that he created was, we never, we didn't hug, we didn't talk. 306 00:20:44,450 --> 00:20:47,820 We didn't, we didn't do, 307 00:20:49,690 --> 00:20:51,390 you know, the sort of things that, um, 308 00:20:53,110 --> 00:20:56,880 that I think are essential in a relationship. 309 00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:59,020 But it took me a long time, 310 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,780 and a lot of therapy and a lot of growing up and a lot of 311 00:21:04,050 --> 00:21:07,870 broken bones to to, uh, to come to that place. 312 00:21:08,570 --> 00:21:10,470 Oh, love the therapy. . 313 00:21:11,030 --> 00:21:11,863 . Yeah. 314 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,310 Let's talk about mash. That was an extraordinarily successful show. 315 00:21:18,010 --> 00:21:18,843 Yes, it was. 316 00:21:19,370 --> 00:21:23,870 And I think what strikes me, I had Ken Levine on the show. 317 00:21:25,130 --> 00:21:26,870 Oh, did you? Yeah. Yeah. 318 00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:30,230 It's very funny. Very, very wonderful experience to talk with him. 319 00:21:31,370 --> 00:21:34,670 The thing that really strikes me about mash, 320 00:21:36,010 --> 00:21:39,580 besides the fact that it went on longer than the war it was portraying, uh, 321 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,510 is that it had such a deep, to me sense of, 322 00:21:44,690 --> 00:21:45,070 uh, 323 00:21:45,070 --> 00:21:50,070 morality and understanding of the complication of the human condition. 324 00:21:50,740 --> 00:21:55,230 That it wasn't a black and white conversation. 325 00:21:55,890 --> 00:21:57,550 That's right. It was so nuanced. 326 00:21:59,340 --> 00:22:04,100 Absolutely. So, absolutely so, and, uh, and it was, it was, it was that way by, 327 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,850 um, uh, 328 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,140 through the direction of, uh, Larry Gelbard and, 329 00:22:12,140 --> 00:22:16,160 and Gene Reynolds particularly who created the show, 330 00:22:17,140 --> 00:22:20,680 and Alan, who they, Alan Alder, who they hired, 331 00:22:22,150 --> 00:22:26,150 Alan wanted. Alan is one of the, uh, 332 00:22:26,330 --> 00:22:30,430 one of the smartest and one of the most principled 333 00:22:31,250 --> 00:22:33,950 people I've ever I've ever known. He's, um, 334 00:22:35,350 --> 00:22:36,500 incredibly talented, 335 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,740 but extraordinarily generous in doing what he did for me. For example, 336 00:22:42,970 --> 00:22:47,140 accepting me and making me an equal, um, you know, 337 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,540 almost equal, whatever. But it was, you know, 338 00:22:50,550 --> 00:22:53,700 there was no question about who the star of the show was. Um, 339 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,540 and I certainly had no quarrel with who the star of the show was, 340 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,100 but the, he and I, I, I've told this story a number of times. 341 00:23:02,780 --> 00:23:06,840 I tend to get involved in political and social 342 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:10,880 issues and things. I was in 343 00:23:13,260 --> 00:23:18,190 Southeast Asia, I guess, anyway, 344 00:23:18,260 --> 00:23:22,390 somewhere in a very impoverished part of the world and came back because 345 00:23:23,650 --> 00:23:28,510 the response I got from the people there who knew the show, one, 346 00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:32,070 the fact that they knew the show, and second, what the show meant to them. 347 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,520 I came back and Alan and I sat together. We, we became very close friends. And, 348 00:23:38,540 --> 00:23:42,350 uh, I, I've forgotten, it was maybe the 349 00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:47,230 second or third year I was on the show, 350 00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:51,310 beginning of that season, we'd, you know, 351 00:23:51,330 --> 00:23:54,670 sit around and talk and kind of say hi and what you've been doing lately. 352 00:23:55,730 --> 00:23:57,230 And I said to Alan, are you, 353 00:23:57,370 --> 00:24:02,270 are you hearing the same thing I'm hearing out there? And he said, yeah, I am. 354 00:24:03,430 --> 00:24:04,650 And I said, this show 355 00:24:06,210 --> 00:24:10,390 really means something to people, not only in this country, 356 00:24:10,450 --> 00:24:13,670 but around the world. And it means what you were just talking about, 357 00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:18,630 it means something about the human value and about peace and about 358 00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:20,590 morality. And, uh, I mean, 359 00:24:20,590 --> 00:24:24,990 just the things that I think we're at the core of what Larry and Jean 360 00:24:25,970 --> 00:24:29,990 set up. But it needed, 361 00:24:30,170 --> 00:24:34,650 it needed that, uh, 362 00:24:34,750 --> 00:24:38,530 it needed reassurance, uh, about the part on the parts of other people. 363 00:24:38,530 --> 00:24:41,770 You know, you've got a television network that all they care about is ratings. 364 00:24:41,770 --> 00:24:43,450 They don't give a damn what you do or say, 365 00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:46,610 except they don't want you to swear , uh, 366 00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:52,610 they used to not want you to swear. Now they don't mind. Anyway. Uh, 367 00:24:52,790 --> 00:24:55,530 he, so he and I sort of talked about it for quite a while, 368 00:24:55,550 --> 00:24:57,930 and then we got the cast together and we said, look, 369 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,610 it's up to us to make sure that this show 370 00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:08,930 continues to live up to what the audience out there believes 371 00:25:09,470 --> 00:25:14,160 it means. And, um, and hold high, that, 372 00:25:16,470 --> 00:25:19,680 that premise that people matter, that blood's not spilled without cost. 373 00:25:19,710 --> 00:25:24,240 That that human beings are on both sides 374 00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:27,760 of any, any disagreement. And, and 375 00:25:29,270 --> 00:25:31,660 right or wrong is sometimes hard to define, 376 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:36,060 but you have to do what you think is, is the best you can do. And, 377 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:38,500 and to their credit, everybody, 378 00:25:39,090 --> 00:25:43,100 everybody got it under. Understood. Agreed. And 379 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:45,980 so I think the last 380 00:25:48,860 --> 00:25:50,110 four or five years of the show, 381 00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:53,910 four years of the show maybe were 382 00:25:55,630 --> 00:26:00,230 partly that I was in it, but were more, 383 00:26:00,930 --> 00:26:04,980 um, focused than the first few years. 384 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:08,580 And it was intentional and, and the writers got it. 385 00:26:10,090 --> 00:26:12,710 We did stuff, you know, talking about 386 00:26:16,970 --> 00:26:21,230 the human foibles, but, but did it in a way that I, 387 00:26:21,390 --> 00:26:23,310 I can't tell you, I get mail every day, 388 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:28,150 every day from people still 50 years later talking about the, 389 00:26:29,450 --> 00:26:33,270 the, the show and what it means to them and continues to mean to them. And. 390 00:26:33,650 --> 00:26:34,483 That's great. 391 00:26:34,660 --> 00:26:36,110 Yeah, it is. It's really remarkable. 392 00:26:36,620 --> 00:26:40,910 When you were reading for the part Yeah, BJ, the Cut, did you, 393 00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:44,400 were you going in with with that, 394 00:26:46,590 --> 00:26:49,550 I don't know how to put that exactly, that, that weight, 395 00:26:50,570 --> 00:26:54,380 or had you not quite wrapped your head around that yet? I mean, 396 00:26:54,500 --> 00:26:55,620 'cause it was already a hit show. 397 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,500 It was a hit show. You're right. No, I, it's, it's, uh, I'll tell you a story. 398 00:26:59,580 --> 00:27:03,220 I, um, I was, by that time, I was, um, 399 00:27:03,950 --> 00:27:05,500 doing well in the industry. 400 00:27:05,820 --> 00:27:10,420 I had done two years on a soap. I had done, uh, 401 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,980 one season on a main, uh, uh, 402 00:27:12,980 --> 00:27:17,980 series that was primetime and had done two actually series, 403 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:21,420 uh, with really wonderful actors. 404 00:27:21,650 --> 00:27:26,500 Broderick Crawford was the star of one of them. And, uh, Anthony Quinn, great. 405 00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:28,460 Anthony Quinn was star of another one. 406 00:27:28,460 --> 00:27:31,300 And I get to work with some really wonderful, talented people. 407 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:34,900 And then when the Quinn series failed, 408 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,900 in order to do the Quinn series, it was required. 409 00:27:39,330 --> 00:27:42,300 They required that I sign a contract with Universal Studio, 410 00:27:43,910 --> 00:27:46,890 and I thought, Hmm, I'm not sure I wanna do that, but I, 411 00:27:47,130 --> 00:27:49,130 I wanted to work with Quinn. So I said, okay. 412 00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:53,650 And then when the show ended as I knew it would, he was much too big, 413 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,730 much too powerful for television. I thought, well, 414 00:27:56,730 --> 00:27:59,690 maybe they'll let me out of the contract. And of course, they didn't. 415 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,210 They wanted me to do a guest, you know, 416 00:28:02,210 --> 00:28:06,730 guest stars in all the series that they did, and some of the really dopey, 417 00:28:07,270 --> 00:28:11,690 so I, I, I kind of became pecs bad boy on the, on the, on the lot. 418 00:28:11,930 --> 00:28:14,010 I would say, no, I don't wanna do that one. And they'd say, 419 00:28:14,010 --> 00:28:18,930 you don't have the right to to say no. And I said, yeah, 420 00:28:18,930 --> 00:28:23,130 they do . And they'd say, well, 421 00:28:23,130 --> 00:28:26,890 that means you're on suspension. Your contract is, 422 00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:30,130 we're not gonna pay you for that week, or those two weeks, or whatever it is. 423 00:28:30,210 --> 00:28:34,210 I said, okay. So we came to this agreement that I would , but, 424 00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:35,490 but they did. They, they, 425 00:28:35,490 --> 00:28:39,490 they really did give me some really good opportunities to, 426 00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:44,720 to do shows. One, I I, I, I, 427 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:49,330 I was a friend of mine called me and he said, let's have dinner. And I said, 428 00:28:49,330 --> 00:28:51,890 great, I'd love to see you. And went to his place, 429 00:28:52,150 --> 00:28:56,650 and I knocked on the door and he, he came to door, and he, I said, let's go. 430 00:28:56,650 --> 00:28:59,530 And he said, oh, wait a minute. I, we can't, I can't leave yet. 431 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:05,100 My favorite show is on. And I said, what's that? And we went in and it was Mash. 432 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,260 And I had, I'd never seen the show. 433 00:29:10,010 --> 00:29:12,810 I was entranced, I, they, there was, there was a scene, 434 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,610 I'll never forget with Gary Bergoff radar, 19 year old, you know, 435 00:29:18,190 --> 00:29:22,820 kid off the farm in Iowa or wherever with 436 00:29:23,250 --> 00:29:27,380 essentially bombs bursting and blood spurting and shit going on, . 437 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,580 And he was sort of trying to keep it all together. And I thought, 438 00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:36,870 what a magnificent, what a magnificent show. 439 00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:40,790 How frigging lucky are those people to be doing that show? 440 00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:44,360 And I just fell in love. And, um, 441 00:29:45,830 --> 00:29:50,170 and then I went back to, to work, you know, I, my, I was doing this or that, 442 00:29:50,230 --> 00:29:54,050 and then I got a, a, a, a call from a producer who said, 443 00:29:54,530 --> 00:29:58,890 I would like you to star in my new series. And I said, well, 444 00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:01,610 can I read the script? And he said, sure. So he sent me the script, 445 00:30:01,670 --> 00:30:04,450 and it was just a silly show, just one of those, uh, 446 00:30:05,630 --> 00:30:08,140 three jokes to a page kind of thing, uh, 447 00:30:08,170 --> 00:30:12,540 just like manufactured humor. I said, thanks, 448 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,560 but no thanks. And he said, you're, 449 00:30:16,860 --> 00:30:20,960 you're turning down the lead in a television series, . 450 00:30:21,580 --> 00:30:26,200 And I said, yeah, yeah, I guess I am. And he said, why? 451 00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:31,370 And I didn't wanna say, well, your show is stupid . 452 00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:36,530 So I said, uh, well, it's not mash. 453 00:30:38,350 --> 00:30:41,330 And he looked at me and I s I said, 454 00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,490 what I mean is MASH is about something, 455 00:30:46,470 --> 00:30:49,810 and I wanna do a show that's about something, you know, 456 00:30:49,950 --> 00:30:54,870 not just a show that does jokes. So he, he, you know, he found somebody else, 457 00:30:54,930 --> 00:30:58,670 I'm sure, although I don't think she'll ever got on the air, 458 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,540 but I'll never forget that. 'cause a year later, my agent got a call, said, 459 00:31:04,540 --> 00:31:07,700 Wayne Rogers is thinking about leaving the cast of mash. 460 00:31:08,530 --> 00:31:11,700 We'd like to know if Mike Farrell would be interested in coming over and having 461 00:31:11,820 --> 00:31:14,900 a conversation with us. We don't know that Wayne is going to leave. 462 00:31:14,910 --> 00:31:19,020 We're still trying to work out his con contract, but in, in the event he does, 463 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,460 we have to have somebody to replace him, 464 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,300 and we're gonna see a bunch of actors, and we'd like to see Mike Ferrell. 465 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:31,380 So he said, can you do that? Can you come over there and meet them? I said, 466 00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:36,100 shit, can I, the question is, can I, I am under contract here at Universal. 467 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,500 And he said, really, that's not gonna hurt to go and have a meeting. And I said, 468 00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:46,060 okay. And I went in and met with Larry, um, gal Barton, 469 00:31:46,060 --> 00:31:50,850 gene Reynolds. And, um, and I think Burt Metcalf at that point, 470 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:55,130 Burt, I had known Burt slightly. He was a casting director at Universal, 471 00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:59,930 and he was now the associate producer of mash. And at any rate, 472 00:31:59,950 --> 00:32:02,810 we had this conversation where I , 473 00:32:05,530 --> 00:32:08,730 I felt like I stumbled and mumbled and grumbled, 474 00:32:08,790 --> 00:32:12,490 and farted through the entire thing. I thought I was, 475 00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:17,490 it was the worst interview I'd ever done. And I finally apologized. I said, uh, 476 00:32:17,510 --> 00:32:22,080 listen, I, I'm sorry. I said, I hope, you know, 477 00:32:22,180 --> 00:32:24,120 I'm a professional and I've done a lot of good work, 478 00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:28,880 and I've been involved in things, but I am so in love with this show. 479 00:32:29,260 --> 00:32:33,840 The idea of meeting you guys with the possibility of being a part of it has me, 480 00:32:34,650 --> 00:32:38,910 uh, in, in a panic. And they were wonderful. They were just, 481 00:32:39,630 --> 00:32:43,060 just terrific. And they said, um, 482 00:32:45,770 --> 00:32:50,430 any, would you have any concerns about being a part of being, 483 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,150 doing this? Stepping in where? And, uh, 484 00:32:54,220 --> 00:32:59,150 trapper John had trod. And I said, my one concern is that I, 485 00:32:59,350 --> 00:33:02,870 I wouldn't, uh, be interested in becoming Trapper John. 486 00:33:03,590 --> 00:33:08,190 I think that'd be a big mistake. Um, actor replacing, you know, 487 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,910 we're on another, I said, they said, no, we quite agree with you. Um, they said, 488 00:33:12,970 --> 00:33:17,670 um, you know, it's the military people transferred away. 489 00:33:17,690 --> 00:33:22,530 People get shifted, people die, people whatever. So, 490 00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:25,400 um, uh, 491 00:33:25,550 --> 00:33:29,940 what we have in mind is a, a, 492 00:33:30,220 --> 00:33:30,970 a fellow who, 493 00:33:30,970 --> 00:33:35,940 medical doctor who's married and has a baby at home and is not 494 00:33:35,940 --> 00:33:40,540 going to be a womanizer like Hawkeye. And, and Trapper had been, have been, 495 00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:45,730 how would you feel about that ? I said, 496 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,780 you asked me how I would feel about, uh, 497 00:33:51,460 --> 00:33:55,980 modeling fidelity on national television. I wouldn't mind that at all. 498 00:33:56,420 --> 00:34:00,940 . So, uh, I don't know. 499 00:34:01,220 --> 00:34:05,250 I don't know how many actors they met. I know I got a call 500 00:34:08,380 --> 00:34:10,710 some days later to come in and, 501 00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:14,700 and they asked if I would be willing to do a screen test. And they said, 502 00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:16,020 it's not about whether you can act, 503 00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:20,780 it's about a test with Alan to see kind of how 504 00:34:20,780 --> 00:34:24,620 you're, how you two play together. And I said, absolutely. 505 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,840 And went in and did it, and thought I did a terrible job. 506 00:34:30,060 --> 00:34:34,110 And went home thinking it's a comedy for Christ's sakes. 507 00:34:34,210 --> 00:34:36,630 Why couldn't you have found a way to be funny ? 508 00:34:37,290 --> 00:34:41,550 But but fortunately, I got a call saying, you're the guy. 509 00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:43,533 And, uh. 510 00:34:43,710 --> 00:34:44,000 Well, 511 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,120 there's such a dryness to him and such a grounding to that character that if you 512 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:52,240 had gone in blazing com, you know, comic guns, 513 00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:53,200 it wouldn't have worked. 514 00:34:53,620 --> 00:34:55,840 No, no, no, no. Of course it wouldn't. And I, but I was just, 515 00:34:56,150 --> 00:34:58,960 that was part of my second guessing myself. Yeah, of course. 516 00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:59,750 Yeah. 517 00:34:59,750 --> 00:35:04,680 Shit, you fool. But oh my gosh. Yeah. So it was great. I mean, it was, 518 00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:09,670 um, and it turned into just a, 519 00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:14,270 just a wonderful goddamn experience. Helen called me that night and he said, 520 00:35:14,290 --> 00:35:17,190 are you free to have dinner? I'd like to have dinner with you. And I said, 521 00:35:17,990 --> 00:35:18,830 absolutely, . 522 00:35:20,170 --> 00:35:25,150 And we sat and talked and talked for hours about what his hopes and 523 00:35:25,150 --> 00:35:27,790 dreams were for the show, and how much he cared about it, 524 00:35:27,790 --> 00:35:30,790 and how important it was that we stay, you know, 525 00:35:30,790 --> 00:35:32,910 the same kind of stuff we talked about later when, uh, 526 00:35:32,910 --> 00:35:36,510 when I came back from Southeast Asia. And 527 00:35:38,510 --> 00:35:42,250 it was such, it was such a wonderful thing for him to do, first of all. 528 00:35:43,070 --> 00:35:47,730 And second, it was, it was really a kind of a leg up for me. 529 00:35:47,890 --> 00:35:51,370 I was suddenly coming into this, uh, to this group that was 530 00:35:53,310 --> 00:35:56,520 reputed in the industry to be a very close family. 531 00:35:57,740 --> 00:36:01,400 And I'm taking the place of one of their , one of their brothers, uh, 532 00:36:01,990 --> 00:36:03,800 that, you know, the cast might hate me. 533 00:36:04,180 --> 00:36:09,170 So Alan's opening the door the way he did was really very generous of him 534 00:36:09,170 --> 00:36:13,930 and, and very impactful to me. And then when I went on the set, 535 00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:17,570 at first guy who walked up to me and said, hello was Gary Bergoff, 536 00:36:17,630 --> 00:36:21,610 the fellow who's I'd seen in that scene, stuck out his hand and said, 537 00:36:21,610 --> 00:36:25,670 welcome aboard. And, and then Loretta and Bill, 538 00:36:25,850 --> 00:36:29,250 and Jamie and Larry, I mean, it was just, 539 00:36:29,250 --> 00:36:31,930 it was just wonderful. And, 540 00:36:31,930 --> 00:36:34,890 and at the point I wanted to get to was the first day, 541 00:36:36,050 --> 00:36:40,160 which was the same thing we did, uh, every show. We, 542 00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:44,240 we would sit around a table and read the script aloud, 543 00:36:45,410 --> 00:36:50,030 and for the writers to hear it, to have a way to think of, feel, 544 00:36:50,030 --> 00:36:50,430 whether, 545 00:36:50,430 --> 00:36:54,110 whether it's certain joke works or if there's something needs to be punched up 546 00:36:54,110 --> 00:36:58,830 or whatever. Anyway, so you start, and Gene Reynolds, who was the director, 547 00:36:58,830 --> 00:37:00,670 said, page one. And we read through the thing, 548 00:37:00,730 --> 00:37:03,270 and there was some laughs and at the end, 549 00:37:03,270 --> 00:37:06,990 people applauded and welcomed Mike and all that stuff. And then Gene said, okay, 550 00:37:07,020 --> 00:37:11,090 page one. And I looked at him, you know, 551 00:37:11,090 --> 00:37:14,810 we had just done that . And he said, oh, Mike, he said, 552 00:37:14,810 --> 00:37:19,250 here's where we go through page by page to see if you have any questions, 553 00:37:19,350 --> 00:37:23,730 any suggestions, any ideas. We just want to hear from you about. 554 00:37:25,710 --> 00:37:28,670 And I thought, honest to God, 555 00:37:29,590 --> 00:37:32,580 I think I've, I think I've died and gone to Heaven. 556 00:37:33,910 --> 00:37:37,470 I had done two years on a soap and two television series, 557 00:37:37,530 --> 00:37:40,480 and nobody had ever asked me, uh, 558 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,120 although I'd offered some thoughts at times, but nobody had ever said, 559 00:37:44,300 --> 00:37:48,320 we want you to give us your take on the script. And I heard people, 560 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,360 I heard people say, I think this joke would work better if Bill did it. 561 00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:57,240 Or How about if we tried this? It was, it was really, 562 00:37:58,690 --> 00:38:03,230 it became what I finally understood to be a creative community. 563 00:38:03,410 --> 00:38:06,670 It was people working together to try and make the show as, as, 564 00:38:06,850 --> 00:38:10,710 as good as it could possibly be. And it never stopped. 565 00:38:11,110 --> 00:38:12,070 I was there for eight years, 566 00:38:12,290 --> 00:38:15,390 and there were eight of the happiest years of my life in terms of my career. 567 00:38:15,890 --> 00:38:18,400 My God. It was, it was, 568 00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:21,000 and remains the finest 569 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,470 experience I've ever, I I've done some, 570 00:38:25,470 --> 00:38:29,160 I've done some really good things before and since, 571 00:38:29,260 --> 00:38:31,870 but nothing will ever reach that, 572 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:39,060 that, uh, that was the epitome, I guess is the word of, 573 00:38:39,990 --> 00:38:42,970 of what I wanted to be part of in this business. 574 00:38:43,510 --> 00:38:44,770 That's so lovely. And I, 575 00:38:45,050 --> 00:38:49,370 I really enjoy hearing that it was such a collaborative experience as well. 576 00:38:50,090 --> 00:38:52,850 I think that's important for Absolutely. First of all, 577 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,730 that Alan Alda understood what it means to be a leader. Yep. And, 578 00:38:56,990 --> 00:38:59,490 and brought you to dinner. And because that, 579 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,930 that example shines throughout the entire project. 580 00:39:04,010 --> 00:39:04,470 Absolutely. Right. 581 00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:08,770 For him to have a grasp of that, and then for the, for the directors and such, 582 00:39:08,830 --> 00:39:13,610 to know that it is a group effort, that it is so much, 583 00:39:13,850 --> 00:39:15,210 I mean, that's what creation is. 584 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,650 Yeah, absolutely. And, 585 00:39:17,710 --> 00:39:21,490 and there were so many times that that was laid out for, I mean, 586 00:39:22,890 --> 00:39:27,690 a couple times working on scripts. Um, there was one, 587 00:39:28,010 --> 00:39:32,620 I mean, you know, they worked hard. We worked hard. And, 588 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,620 uh, I just think of one in particular that there was a, 589 00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:44,290 a scene that they took out of, uh, out of, uh, research they had done. 590 00:39:44,290 --> 00:39:46,330 They'd gone to Korea and they'd, um, 591 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,290 reached out to people who'd been in the mash, doctors, nurses, and patients. 592 00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:56,530 And so they used a lot of the things they'd found in this research 593 00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:59,610 for as sort of things in the show, 594 00:39:59,610 --> 00:40:02,370 either plots or ideas or moments. 595 00:40:03,020 --> 00:40:07,860 There was one where we sat down and read this script about a bunch, 596 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,700 uh, Hawkeye and, and, and BJ were, um, 597 00:40:11,690 --> 00:40:14,150 really upset that there are a lot of kids, 598 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:18,910 young kids and soldiers were coming in wounded because this 599 00:40:19,690 --> 00:40:24,460 hot shot officer kept shoving them, pushing them up this hill that was a, 600 00:40:24,460 --> 00:40:25,293 just a terrible 601 00:40:26,780 --> 00:40:31,630 bloodshed bloody battlefield. And we just thought, 602 00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:34,350 God dammit, you know, something, something's wrong here. 603 00:40:35,090 --> 00:40:39,330 And then the officer showed up to say to his guys, come on guys, 604 00:40:39,330 --> 00:40:42,210 you gotta get back in it. And we were, I wanna fix everything and we'll, 605 00:40:42,410 --> 00:40:47,000 I need your, I need you. And we came up with this, uh, 606 00:40:47,340 --> 00:40:49,960 uh, scheme to, um, 607 00:40:51,830 --> 00:40:56,660 buddy up with him, go take him into the swamp, get him drunk on our, 608 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:02,380 the stuff we fermented in the still. And, uh, tell him, 609 00:41:02,380 --> 00:41:05,700 he give him a mickey, tell him he had a, 610 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,940 was having appendicitis and give him, take a, put him on the table and take him, 611 00:41:10,050 --> 00:41:12,380 take his appendix out, uh, 612 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,780 and take him off the line for a while in the hopes that that would take some, 613 00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:21,190 save some kids' lives. So we read through the script, and at the end of it, 614 00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:24,670 everybody applauded, and we went through the one page one by one, 615 00:41:25,870 --> 00:41:29,130 and we got to that point, and I said, um, yeah, I've got a problem here. 616 00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:31,610 They said, what's that? I said, BJ wouldn't do that. 617 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,380 And they said, well, what do you mean? And I said, 618 00:41:39,410 --> 00:41:40,500 cutting into a, 619 00:41:40,890 --> 00:41:44,740 cutting into a healthy human body is not something that BJ Honeycutt would do. 620 00:41:46,510 --> 00:41:49,370 And they said, well, we got it outta the research. I said, uh, 621 00:41:49,710 --> 00:41:51,570 I'm not saying it didn't happen, . 622 00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:57,130 I'm not saying these guys over there made that choice. I'm saying that the, 623 00:41:57,270 --> 00:42:02,090 the fellow that you and I are building or creating in this series would 624 00:42:02,150 --> 00:42:07,130 not do that. And Alan piped up. He said, Hawkeye would. I said, I get it. 625 00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:11,090 I don't have any problem with that. I'm just telling you the BJ wouldn't, 626 00:42:11,870 --> 00:42:16,440 and we, we must have talked for half an hour. And finally, Bert, uh, 627 00:42:16,510 --> 00:42:20,230 Metcalf said, God, he said, 628 00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:23,370 we got a better show here than we have on the page. 629 00:42:25,030 --> 00:42:28,690 So we did that, and we got him drunk. 630 00:42:28,830 --> 00:42:32,370 And then Alan said, let's get him into the or. And BJ said, 631 00:42:32,370 --> 00:42:37,010 you're not really gonna do that. And he said, God damn right, I am. And BJ said, 632 00:42:37,010 --> 00:42:40,450 no, no, no, man, you can't. And he did. 633 00:42:41,780 --> 00:42:45,520 And he came back in after the surgery, and he said, I said, 634 00:42:46,650 --> 00:42:47,750 how was it? And he said, 635 00:42:47,770 --> 00:42:51,710 it was rip and healthy and looked perfectly fine to me, 636 00:42:52,450 --> 00:42:55,270 and talking about the appendix. And then 637 00:42:57,010 --> 00:43:01,500 they put in the sound of helicopters and wounded were coming, and, 638 00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,230 and we looked at each other. And it didn't need to be said. 639 00:43:06,450 --> 00:43:10,690 It was just that what you did didn't stop anything. 640 00:43:11,820 --> 00:43:14,360 Uh, so, but it, the, the, the, 641 00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:17,600 the part about it that stays with me is that they heard me, you know, 642 00:43:17,710 --> 00:43:18,543 they heard mm-hmm. 643 00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,760 what I was saying about this character and what he meant to me. 644 00:43:22,260 --> 00:43:26,990 And I thought to everybody else. And, um, and they honored it. 645 00:43:27,130 --> 00:43:31,710 So that's, that's kind of, kind of an, 646 00:43:32,940 --> 00:43:36,070 uh, an example I think of the. 647 00:43:36,470 --> 00:43:40,110 I appreciate too that they brought that character to life as a, 648 00:43:40,270 --> 00:43:43,230 a type of moral compass throughout the series, 649 00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:48,150 and did not ignore the fact that it didn't mean that you were infallible. 650 00:43:48,530 --> 00:43:49,363 That's right. . 651 00:43:50,210 --> 00:43:51,710 But I think that's so important. 652 00:43:51,970 --> 00:43:55,730 No. In fact, absolutely. Yeah. We, well, 653 00:43:55,730 --> 00:43:59,460 we did another scene one time, um, uh, 654 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:05,100 it was in ra uh, RA radar's or Klinger's office. I forget. I guess it was, 655 00:44:05,150 --> 00:44:07,420 maybe it was after Larry left, and it was Klinger's office. 656 00:44:08,250 --> 00:44:13,140 Alan was on the phone. Oh, no, 657 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,930 no. Yeah. Um, the actress, Blythe, 658 00:44:17,930 --> 00:44:20,250 the Danner came into play a, uh, 659 00:44:21,180 --> 00:44:25,950 traveling nurse who'd come into our, uh, compound on temporary duty. 660 00:44:26,450 --> 00:44:28,270 And she, it turned out, and he, 661 00:44:29,270 --> 00:44:33,880 Hawkeye had had an affair when they were in medical school together. 662 00:44:35,260 --> 00:44:39,820 And suddenly here they were again. 663 00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:44,780 And I think she was married. And suddenly the, the fair blossomed. 664 00:44:44,780 --> 00:44:49,540 And they were, and he said to me, uh, he said, Hawkeye to BJ said, uh, 665 00:44:52,250 --> 00:44:56,780 I, um, haven't been around lately. I said, yeah, 666 00:44:56,890 --> 00:45:01,340 I've been, I've missed you. I've been crying into my pillow. And he said, uh, 667 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,370 do you disapprove? I said, not my place to disapprove. I, 668 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,860 he said, have you ever been unfaithful? And I said, never. 669 00:45:14,450 --> 00:45:17,780 And he said, have you ever been tempted? I said, 670 00:45:18,810 --> 00:45:23,180 tempted iss a different question. And he said, aha, you have it? I said, no, 671 00:45:23,340 --> 00:45:26,620 I just said, tempted is a different question. I didn't say. Anyway, 672 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,300 so it was a joke, and it was a good scene. 673 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,700 And we ended the scene and we went out and Larry Gelbart, 674 00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:37,580 who had written the scene, was there, um, watching. And I said, Larry, 675 00:45:37,580 --> 00:45:40,900 that's a, that was fun. That was great. I really enjoyed it. 676 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,900 But for BJ to say, I've never been tempted 677 00:45:48,250 --> 00:45:52,490 isn't human. I think the joke worked, 678 00:45:53,470 --> 00:45:54,303 but I think, 679 00:45:54,890 --> 00:45:59,570 I think it's important that we recognize that BJ is just as subject to 680 00:45:59,570 --> 00:46:03,910 temptation as everybody else. And a year later, 681 00:46:04,930 --> 00:46:06,500 gene came to me and he said, , 682 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:10,260 you remember that conversation you had with Larry about being tempted? 683 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:14,040 And I said, yeah. And he said, well, how, 684 00:46:14,140 --> 00:46:16,840 how would you feel if BJ fell off the fidelity wagon? 685 00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:20,930 And I said, whoa, 686 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:27,480 that depends on how it's done. And he said, 687 00:46:28,420 --> 00:46:32,150 okay, let us, let us think about it. And they came back with a script, 688 00:46:32,610 --> 00:46:33,550 script where, um, 689 00:46:36,830 --> 00:46:41,050 and one of the nurses had gotten a Dear Jane from her, 690 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:46,410 beloved, I guess, and Kelly, I guess, came to me and said, 691 00:46:47,710 --> 00:46:51,180 nurse, whatever is is really having a rough time. 692 00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:54,380 Would you be willing to go talk to her? And I said, sure. 693 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,780 And I went in and we talked and how tough it is. And she said, it's just, 694 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,980 you know, it hurts so much and you're away from the one you love. And, 695 00:47:04,940 --> 00:47:08,430 and she walked toward me and we embraced, 696 00:47:08,610 --> 00:47:13,570 and then suddenly we were kissing and then fade 697 00:47:13,630 --> 00:47:18,490 out. So who knows what happened thereafter, but one can assume, 698 00:47:19,590 --> 00:47:23,930 and the rest of the show was about haw. I saying, 699 00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:28,510 what are you doing? I'm writing Peg about what? 700 00:47:29,380 --> 00:47:34,330 About what I did? No, you're not . He said, 701 00:47:34,350 --> 00:47:38,610 you are not going to write that. We had a fight. It was, 702 00:47:38,670 --> 00:47:41,740 it was fabulous. And, uh, 703 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,860 he, he finally made the point. He said, 704 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,340 you're gonna visit that kind of pain on her when she can do nothing about it. 705 00:47:52,510 --> 00:47:55,190 Tell her when you get home. But not now. 706 00:47:58,220 --> 00:48:01,300 I think that's the one where I got drunk and I punched Hawkeye, 707 00:48:01,300 --> 00:48:03,780 and it was a whole, the whole big deal. . 708 00:48:04,610 --> 00:48:05,443 Such a great show. 709 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:06,330 Oh, yeah. 710 00:48:06,330 --> 00:48:10,780 Such a great show. So many, it's, look for those who are listening, 711 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:15,180 if you've never experienced that show, I cannot recommend it enough. It's, 712 00:48:15,410 --> 00:48:20,180 it's brilliantly acted, brilliantly written, brilliantly directed. You, 713 00:48:20,550 --> 00:48:21,383 y'all, 714 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,220 you made choices that were so extraordinary that hadn't even like the, 715 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,660 the perspective from the patient, the person being operated on that episode. 716 00:48:30,970 --> 00:48:31,803 Yeah. 717 00:48:31,850 --> 00:48:32,610 Yeah. 718 00:48:32,610 --> 00:48:33,500 That was incredible. 719 00:48:34,370 --> 00:48:39,020 Wonderful things, really the point of view that was called Yeah. Yeah. And, and 720 00:48:41,340 --> 00:48:45,700 I came in one day in my second year on the show, and I said to Bert, 721 00:48:45,970 --> 00:48:50,220 I've got an idea for an episode. He said, yeah, what is it? And I ran it by him, 722 00:48:50,220 --> 00:48:55,020 and he said, that's terrific. Why don't you go write it ? I said, whoa. 723 00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:00,580 Uh, and I had done some writing, but I, not of the le level. He said, 724 00:49:00,580 --> 00:49:03,420 don't worry about it. We've got a group of, you know, writers here. We go into, 725 00:49:03,420 --> 00:49:06,740 we, you write it down, we go into the room, we talk about it. 726 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,220 But it was that creative community. It was like, whatever you want to do, 727 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,940 you know, we want everything you'll give us. 728 00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,420 It was, it was just amazing, really amazing to be part of that. 729 00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,330 When you left the show, when, when it finished. Yeah. 730 00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:28,370 What an epic ending. Uh. 731 00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:29,783 Say what. 732 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,890 I've, I'm sure you've been asked this a gajillion times, 733 00:49:33,190 --> 00:49:38,050 but I understand that people who are on sets, especially for a long time, 734 00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,530 that they take memorabilia with them. Would there, 735 00:49:40,630 --> 00:49:43,090 was there a part of the set that you took with you? Yeah. 736 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,330 Yeah, yeah. I have it in my office. I don't think it's here anymore. I have it, 737 00:49:48,650 --> 00:49:53,570 I have it done in my, in my office. The sign that, 738 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:58,170 that was on this, on the swamp, outside the swamp saying, um, 739 00:49:58,590 --> 00:50:03,370 San Francisco, which was shorthand for Mill Valley, where New J was from. 740 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,930 Yeah. But, yeah, no, that was wonderful. That, and I've got my boots and, 741 00:50:08,190 --> 00:50:09,023 you know, 742 00:50:09,370 --> 00:50:14,100 I just read that Alan donated his boots and his dog 743 00:50:14,250 --> 00:50:16,070 tags, uh, 744 00:50:16,770 --> 00:50:20,940 to an auction for a college that he supports, 745 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,220 and he just a ton of money , which is just great. 746 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:26,673 That's amazing. 747 00:50:26,950 --> 00:50:27,783 Yeah, it is. 748 00:50:27,830 --> 00:50:31,360 Yeah. Wow. Thank you for sharing all that. That's really, it's. 749 00:50:31,540 --> 00:50:33,960 Oh, yeah. You're welcome. Thank you. It's, um, you know, 750 00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,960 I don't know if you just wanted to talk about mash, but, uh, I'm, 751 00:50:38,220 --> 00:50:40,040 as you can tell, I'm always happy to do that. 752 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,000 . Yeah, no, I wanna talk about everything. I mean, uh, if you'll, 753 00:50:43,020 --> 00:50:47,040 if you'll, if you have time, I, I'd like to, now from there, I, 754 00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:51,120 I think it sounds like, especially given that environment, 755 00:50:51,820 --> 00:50:56,000 it had such a, an impact, obviously here at home, 756 00:50:56,660 --> 00:51:01,080 but globally, and it sounds like you started to see the world. I mean, 757 00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,040 you were already a Marine, so you saw the world, 758 00:51:04,660 --> 00:51:06,160 but where did, 759 00:51:06,490 --> 00:51:10,200 where did that part of you start to really begin to develop this understanding 760 00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:14,760 that you have a huge humanitarian aspect of who you are? 761 00:51:14,990 --> 00:51:17,160 Because not everybody has that. 762 00:51:18,900 --> 00:51:23,550 I understand that. Yeah. It, it didn't happen by accident. 763 00:51:23,700 --> 00:51:26,830 None of these things happened by accident. But I got married, um, 764 00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:31,190 shortly after I got home, uh, four years, I guess, 765 00:51:31,190 --> 00:51:34,070 after I got home from being a Marine. Um, 766 00:51:35,130 --> 00:51:38,750 and the marriage lasted for about three years, and then it fell apart. 767 00:51:40,660 --> 00:51:44,700 And I was, um, devastated, 768 00:51:45,340 --> 00:51:50,240 just leveled. And, uh, 769 00:51:51,020 --> 00:51:55,240 psychologically, I, I, I was just a wreck. And, uh, a friend of mine 770 00:51:56,970 --> 00:52:00,860 said, uh, he was, he was part of this organization, it is called, 771 00:52:01,210 --> 00:52:05,680 they called it the House. It was actually called the Manhattan Project, 772 00:52:06,240 --> 00:52:08,860 interestingly enough, um, . 773 00:52:08,930 --> 00:52:09,763 Whoa. . 774 00:52:10,070 --> 00:52:12,100 Right? . Um, 775 00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,220 and it was r r run by a group of, uh, former, uh, 776 00:52:17,850 --> 00:52:21,820 reforming reformed drug addicts and people out of prisons and people outta 777 00:52:21,820 --> 00:52:25,380 mental institutions, the whole thing, you know, full deal, full on therapy. 778 00:52:28,410 --> 00:52:33,320 And he said, uh, you, you need to go to the, to the house. 779 00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,900 And he set up a meeting for me with the two guys. 780 00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:41,300 One was a psychological social worker, and the other was a former addict, 781 00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:46,760 was one of the heads of the place. And he said, um, 782 00:52:48,540 --> 00:52:50,880 you, you need to tell them you wanna be part of it, 783 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,480 and you're gonna have to stand up and make a commitment. And I said, 784 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,160 I don't know what the fuck you're talking about, but okay. 785 00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,980 So I went and I sat and talked to these guys, and they kept, they kept saying, 786 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,810 um, said, what, what do you want? And I, 787 00:53:06,810 --> 00:53:11,310 I said, I want my wife back, and I want, I wanted this. And I went, 788 00:53:12,530 --> 00:53:13,363 and I said, 789 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:18,370 what we've discovered is that people who come to us from, 790 00:53:18,370 --> 00:53:22,490 whether it's drugs or out prison or out of jail, out of off the streets, 791 00:53:22,890 --> 00:53:27,520 whatever, want the same three things. They want love, 792 00:53:27,950 --> 00:53:31,620 they want attention, and they want respect. What do you want? 793 00:53:33,470 --> 00:53:36,870 I want my wife and I want my this, and I want to have, 794 00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:43,430 right. Well, we understand that. But what we've found is that 795 00:53:44,930 --> 00:53:48,790 and I, I think back over this now, and I was so, 796 00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:55,770 uh, into my own grief, we, they probably did that five times. 797 00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:58,530 What we understand, 798 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:03,170 what we've found is that all anybody who is in pain from 799 00:54:03,410 --> 00:54:06,010 whatever wants is to be loved, 800 00:54:06,510 --> 00:54:08,530 to have attention paid and have respect. 801 00:54:10,850 --> 00:54:15,590 What do you want? And I thought, that's what they want me to say. 802 00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:20,540 I said, okay, I want, I wanna be loved. 803 00:54:20,700 --> 00:54:25,300 I wanna have attention, I wanna be respect. And I started to weep. God, 804 00:54:25,500 --> 00:54:29,460 I was just blowing tears. And before I could finish the sentence, 805 00:54:30,390 --> 00:54:33,490 the two of them had leapt up and were holding me. 806 00:54:36,010 --> 00:54:39,720 First time in my life I'd ever been held by a man, 807 00:54:40,220 --> 00:54:44,930 and this was too men. And I 808 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:51,890 just wept until I was dry. And they said, 809 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:56,290 okay, the first meeting is Tuesday at, uh, such and such. 810 00:54:57,190 --> 00:55:00,130 We expect you to show up. And I said, I'll be there. 811 00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:03,540 And I spent a year there, um, 812 00:55:05,260 --> 00:55:08,470 with junkies and whores and 813 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:12,890 drug addicts of all type, 814 00:55:13,150 --> 00:55:17,050 and gay people who couldn't deal with their gayness and, um, 815 00:55:19,490 --> 00:55:22,580 lost people, people out of mental hospitals. Just, it was, 816 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:27,360 it was quite extraordinary. Really quite extraordinary. 817 00:55:28,380 --> 00:55:30,320 And I remember one early, 818 00:55:31,070 --> 00:55:35,230 what we did a lot of group therapy with tough, tough, 819 00:55:35,580 --> 00:55:37,230 hard people. Some of them, 820 00:55:38,540 --> 00:55:40,910 this guy said something and I, 821 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:44,880 I said something 822 00:55:46,730 --> 00:55:50,260 back to him, a little stronger than usual. 823 00:55:52,750 --> 00:55:56,170 And he said, who the fuck are you? 824 00:55:57,650 --> 00:56:01,800 And I said, I'm Mike. And he said, what the fuck is a mike? 825 00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:09,640 And I thought, whoa, an excellent question. 826 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:14,600 . Whoa, that's something , 827 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:20,600 I ought to think about that for a while. Oh, man. So that the 828 00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:27,680 over time I became, they, they, they new people that came in. 829 00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:30,320 They called stupid part of the stupid group, 830 00:56:30,820 --> 00:56:35,800 too stupid to know what they wanted. And if you graduated from the stupid group, 831 00:56:36,100 --> 00:56:39,960 uh, you became responsible. And after I, 832 00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,840 I challenged Ernie at something, and that made me responsible. 833 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:46,440 And I moved into the responsible group. 834 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:51,330 And that meant I went out to prisons with them when we offered this program 835 00:56:52,070 --> 00:56:56,810 to people who were gonna get outta prison and say, or jail, whatever, and say, 836 00:56:56,810 --> 00:56:57,643 look, 837 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:02,160 it's not gonna do you any good to go back to the same situation that put you 838 00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:06,270 here. We offer this program, give it some thought. 839 00:57:07,570 --> 00:57:09,830 And without touching the pain that brought them there. 840 00:57:10,550 --> 00:57:13,710 Absolutely. So I, 841 00:57:13,830 --> 00:57:17,430 I was there working with these folks and working with myself and, you know, 842 00:57:17,430 --> 00:57:20,190 kind of getting it together, 843 00:57:21,670 --> 00:57:25,790 and I've never forgotten it. Um, and going into prisons really 844 00:57:28,070 --> 00:57:32,650 opened a door for me. I, I, I saw how dehumanizing it is, 845 00:57:32,710 --> 00:57:36,710 and I saw how people were, 846 00:57:37,860 --> 00:57:40,920 became integers. They became numbers, they became 847 00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:43,800 less than human. 848 00:57:45,460 --> 00:57:49,840 And I had always thought the death penalty made no sense, but I thought 849 00:57:52,500 --> 00:57:56,720 at the top of this lousy system, after it dehumanizes all these people, 850 00:57:57,260 --> 00:58:01,380 it then kills them. That's, that's the worst. I mean, 851 00:58:01,380 --> 00:58:03,260 that's the most chicken shit. 852 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,460 And the worst kind of societal decision I can imagine. 853 00:58:08,570 --> 00:58:13,220 This was, well, this was before mash. So, so I, I was, 854 00:58:13,340 --> 00:58:15,740 I was doing, you know, the stuff I was doing, 855 00:58:15,940 --> 00:58:19,300 I was trying to build a career and, and then Mash happened, 856 00:58:20,840 --> 00:58:24,460 and, uh, I oh, oh, I got involved in, 857 00:58:25,150 --> 00:58:29,140 there was a Black Revolution, there was a gay revolution, 858 00:58:29,510 --> 00:58:30,980 there was a Women's Revolution. 859 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:34,940 And I got involved in all of them because we were doing that stuff at the house. 860 00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:38,140 And it was pointing out how, uh, 861 00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:43,220 how harmful the way society operated was to so many of its 862 00:58:43,220 --> 00:58:46,740 members. Um, so I got, you know, 863 00:58:46,820 --> 00:58:51,180 I went down to Operation Bootstrap downtown after the LA riots, 864 00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:52,073 and I went to 865 00:58:55,330 --> 00:58:58,590 any number of places and got involved in, in, in stuff. And then, 866 00:58:59,090 --> 00:59:02,870 so when MASH happened, I was, I was doing things, 867 00:59:03,940 --> 00:59:08,930 but suddenly I was the star of one of the premier shows on television and 868 00:59:09,380 --> 00:59:14,250 press was interested in what I was doing and 869 00:59:14,270 --> 00:59:18,920 why I was doing it. Uh, so people contacted me. 870 00:59:19,420 --> 00:59:22,560 Um, one was a group, um, 871 00:59:25,100 --> 00:59:29,510 that, uh, uh, works with, uh, refugees around the, around the world. 872 00:59:30,900 --> 00:59:31,733 And I became, 873 00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,840 I got associated with them and worked with them and traveled to Southeast Asia 874 00:59:35,860 --> 00:59:39,600 and did a lot of stuff with them, and then became involved, uh, 875 00:59:40,300 --> 00:59:41,760 as their spokesperson. 876 00:59:43,220 --> 00:59:47,930 But one of the things that has been ongoing, and that is as well, 877 00:59:47,930 --> 00:59:49,890 but one of the things that's been ongoing is, um, 878 00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:56,220 a minister called me on the set. I don't know how he got the number, 879 00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:01,280 but he did. And he said, uh, I understand you're against the death penalty. 880 01:00:01,340 --> 01:00:03,320 And I had signed a petition or something saying, yes, 881 01:00:03,380 --> 01:00:05,920 I'm against the death penalty. I said, yeah, I don't, 882 01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:11,160 I don't know what I can do about it, but I'm against it. And he said, I think I, 883 01:00:11,220 --> 01:00:15,720 I'd like to come out and talk to you. And I said, okay. His name's Joe Ingle. 884 01:00:15,750 --> 01:00:16,340 He's, um, 885 01:00:16,340 --> 01:00:21,080 the head of was then the head of the Southern Coalition on jails and prisons 886 01:00:21,980 --> 01:00:26,440 in, uh, Nashville. And, um, he talked, he said, 887 01:00:26,860 --> 01:00:28,720 we in 76, 888 01:00:28,790 --> 01:00:33,480 that it was a decision made by the Supreme Court that reopened the 889 01:00:33,610 --> 01:00:38,320 death chambers. 72. They were stopped nationwide, 890 01:00:38,380 --> 01:00:41,920 and then it was reopened in 76. And, uh, 891 01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:45,520 there were a couple of executions in the late seventies. Um, but we, 892 01:00:45,580 --> 01:00:48,240 we really hadn't gotten going in the 893 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,650 execution business. Hmm. So he said, uh, 894 01:00:53,860 --> 01:00:55,930 we're going to have a bloodbath in this country, 895 01:00:56,390 --> 01:01:00,110 and I need somebody who can get publicity, 896 01:01:00,250 --> 01:01:04,270 get press to help me do my work. 897 01:01:05,050 --> 01:01:07,150 And I said, um, okay. 898 01:01:09,150 --> 01:01:13,450 And he invited me down to Nashville and he took me to my first death row, 899 01:01:13,450 --> 01:01:14,283 which was, um, 900 01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:21,460 not something I'll ever forget. And I've been in a lot of death rows since then. 901 01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:26,180 But, you know, when you're a, a newbie to it, 902 01:01:27,390 --> 01:01:30,380 being in a place with these men in cages, and they were all men, 903 01:01:30,380 --> 01:01:34,730 and they were almost all black or brown. And they were, 904 01:01:37,100 --> 01:01:38,750 some of them were really excited to see me, 905 01:01:38,750 --> 01:01:43,310 and some of them were angry at me for being there. 906 01:01:44,870 --> 01:01:46,370 And some of them were just 907 01:01:48,110 --> 01:01:51,300 moved enough by our presence, 908 01:01:51,450 --> 01:01:56,280 mine and Joe's to, uh, to wanna talk. 909 01:01:56,460 --> 01:02:01,320 And we talked, I've still got a, a guy had gave me a crucifix, 910 01:02:01,340 --> 01:02:04,960 he made out of match sticks that's on my wall down there too. Hmm. 911 01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:11,300 And so I, I started working with Joe, um, with the Southern Coalition. 912 01:02:13,160 --> 01:02:16,100 And at that time I was also working with, um, 913 01:02:18,460 --> 01:02:23,240 organization trying to change the US policy in Central America. 914 01:02:24,740 --> 01:02:28,760 The refugee aid organization that I was working with, 915 01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,950 uh, asked me if I would take a load of, uh, 916 01:02:33,290 --> 01:02:37,910 fly to Honduras and take a load of medical supplies to the 917 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:42,870 camps where their people were working. So I did that and, um, 918 01:02:43,140 --> 01:02:45,950 brought along a couple people, uh, 919 01:02:48,900 --> 01:02:51,520 you know, just one, it's in this life. 920 01:02:51,970 --> 01:02:55,400 These things all sort of thread into each other and make a tapestry of some 921 01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:59,400 kind. The death penalty work is, uh, 922 01:02:59,540 --> 01:03:02,790 is something that I've continued as it had, 923 01:03:02,810 --> 01:03:06,410 as has been the human rights in general. I, I, 924 01:03:06,530 --> 01:03:11,000 I was actually one of the founders of Human Rights Watch in California and 925 01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:15,600 traveled to various parts of the world in 926 01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:20,770 support of the human rights understandings and human rights, 927 01:03:21,190 --> 01:03:24,170 um, covenants. 928 01:03:25,030 --> 01:03:29,350 And the UN asked to me, uh, 929 01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:31,910 along with some others to go to 930 01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:39,090 Somalia when, in 1992, I guess it was when, 931 01:03:39,390 --> 01:03:40,223 uh, 932 01:03:40,510 --> 01:03:44,970 the Marines were sent into Somalia and the country was 933 01:03:46,140 --> 01:03:50,920 in chaos and people were dying by the 934 01:03:51,070 --> 01:03:55,980 bushels. And then, uh, they asked again if I'd go to, um, 935 01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,460 and on that, on that trip, uh, we also went to, um, 936 01:04:01,450 --> 01:04:06,020 Bosnia, you know, terrible war going on there. 937 01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,420 The Serbs against the Bosnian Muslims. 938 01:04:10,940 --> 01:04:11,773 Genocide. 939 01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,500 And then speaking of genocide, asked me to go to Rwanda, uh, 940 01:04:15,500 --> 01:04:19,790 after the slaughter there. So this stuff, you know, 941 01:04:19,860 --> 01:04:21,190 they all leave marks. 942 01:04:21,710 --> 01:04:22,543 I was just gonna ask, 943 01:04:22,610 --> 01:04:27,270 how does one firstly prepare oneself to go into those experiences, 944 01:04:28,210 --> 01:04:29,190 and how, 945 01:04:30,850 --> 01:04:35,790 how do you not carry it with you to the point where it dulls 946 01:04:35,790 --> 01:04:37,110 you to the world now? 947 01:04:39,810 --> 01:04:42,630 Oh, I don't think it dulls you. I think it, um, 948 01:04:42,900 --> 01:04:46,390 heightens your awareness of everything around you. 949 01:04:47,370 --> 01:04:50,870 Not everybody. And what I mean by that is that I think for some, 950 01:04:51,210 --> 01:04:55,310 to have experienced the cruelty that we can inflict upon each other, 951 01:04:55,980 --> 01:04:59,670 some, some folks, their, their response to that would be, 952 01:05:00,190 --> 01:05:02,150 I can't look at it. I can't think of it anymore. 953 01:05:02,290 --> 01:05:06,630 I'm gonna put my head in the sand. Whereas other people, I think, go toward it. 954 01:05:07,010 --> 01:05:09,470 Mm-hmm. go toward it to embrace the, 955 01:05:09,470 --> 01:05:12,470 those that are left in the aftermath and to try and figure out how to keep it 956 01:05:12,470 --> 01:05:16,750 from happening again. Which, I mean, good luck with that. Right. 957 01:05:16,850 --> 01:05:20,920 Human beings have this unfortunate, 958 01:05:21,060 --> 01:05:25,480 innate tendency for cruelty that I, I will never, 959 01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:29,160 even when we talk about the, I'm sort of going amuck here, 960 01:05:29,180 --> 01:05:33,200 but even talking about the death penalty, and I think the irony of 961 01:05:35,500 --> 01:05:39,620 somebody being walked in to be strapped in, let's say lethal injection, to, 962 01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:40,780 to meet their doom, 963 01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:44,420 and on the other side of the wall is the person pushing that button. 964 01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:49,580 So while removing a person that you feel is unworthy of living life 965 01:05:49,580 --> 01:05:51,020 anymore because they took someone's life, 966 01:05:51,020 --> 01:05:55,850 you're creating a murderer at the same time. Right. There's no, 967 01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,970 there's literally no sense to that whatsoever. 968 01:05:59,650 --> 01:06:03,490 I couldn't agree more, no sense to it. And it is terribly destructive, 969 01:06:04,250 --> 01:06:09,210 terribly destructive of everybody involved in the process. That, and I, I, 970 01:06:09,330 --> 01:06:13,170 I speak a lot on the subject, so I, and I cite, um, 971 01:06:15,490 --> 01:06:18,270 Dr. Um, rush, 972 01:06:19,380 --> 01:06:21,680 one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, 973 01:06:22,740 --> 01:06:27,200 who was anti-slavery and, uh, a medical doctor. Um, 974 01:06:28,780 --> 01:06:32,310 and he opened something called the Pennsylvania Prison Project. 975 01:06:32,530 --> 01:06:37,510 And he was avowedly anti-coal punishment. And he said that 976 01:06:39,510 --> 01:06:42,600 killing another human being, brutalizes, 977 01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,240 everyone associated with the process. And I think that's what, 978 01:06:47,260 --> 01:06:48,920 that's what's happening to our society. 979 01:06:48,940 --> 01:06:53,280 We are continuing to re brutalize ourselves and worsen ourselves 980 01:06:54,250 --> 01:06:56,110 as a result. So, you know, 981 01:06:56,140 --> 01:07:01,030 it's trying to find that little moment of 982 01:07:01,230 --> 01:07:04,900 openness in somebody that says this. 983 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:09,290 You don't have to be afraid, or you can be afraid if you choose, 984 01:07:09,430 --> 01:07:13,930 but understand that your fear is what's keeping you from accepting the reality 985 01:07:13,990 --> 01:07:18,290 of the good around you. And, you know, join us. 986 01:07:18,500 --> 01:07:22,250 We've got ways in which we can stop this, this. 987 01:07:22,390 --> 01:07:25,570 And then there's those who are indifferent to it. All right. Which is yeah. 988 01:07:25,950 --> 01:07:30,170 Is even more terrifying to be indifferent to something like that. 989 01:07:30,680 --> 01:07:34,130 Like I agree. I agree. Uh, it's the antagonists that are, 990 01:07:34,160 --> 01:07:35,570 that are easiest to deal with, 991 01:07:35,630 --> 01:07:39,540 the tho those who are indifferent are the hardest to get through to. 992 01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,300 Why do you think it is? You can only speak for yourself, 993 01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,820 and we can try and understand why other people think the way they do, but 994 01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:55,140 why do you think it is that the idea of humanity and being humane has, 995 01:07:56,350 --> 01:07:59,860 maybe it always has been. Uh, I haven't been around forever or anything, 996 01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:02,260 but that, that it's been politicized so much. 997 01:08:04,370 --> 01:08:07,230 Uh, politicized is a good word. Um, uh, 998 01:08:10,290 --> 01:08:14,340 factional, factionalism, you know, you, you, you, you, you find yourself, 999 01:08:15,220 --> 01:08:18,400 um, or you one tends to find oneself 1000 01:08:19,980 --> 01:08:24,610 allying with people who see things sort of in a manner that's 1001 01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:29,250 less painful than the ones that see things in a manner that's more painful. 1002 01:08:30,030 --> 01:08:34,480 And instead of just, you know, dealing , 1003 01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:38,480 dealing with it on a pain scale instead of opening up and just sort of allowing 1004 01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:43,340 yourself to be present and recognize. I, I, 1005 01:08:44,100 --> 01:08:49,020 I, I grow tired of saying that all human beings want the same thing, love, 1006 01:08:49,210 --> 01:08:53,060 attention, and respect, and without them, 1007 01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:55,980 people turn into human pretzels, 1008 01:08:55,980 --> 01:08:59,980 trying to get some sort of vestige of 1009 01:09:00,850 --> 01:09:05,150 what those real things might offer. You know, 1010 01:09:05,150 --> 01:09:09,630 stick needles in your arms or attack others, or do whatever you will. 1011 01:09:12,420 --> 01:09:15,070 Just understanding that you're lovable, 1012 01:09:16,670 --> 01:09:20,580 that you deserve to be loved, that you deserve to be, 1013 01:09:21,540 --> 01:09:23,440 uh, respected and to, 1014 01:09:23,740 --> 01:09:28,410 and that you deserve to have attention paid God, what a, 1015 01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:31,410 what an extraordinary understanding. 1016 01:09:33,310 --> 01:09:36,760 It's, if I don't have that feeling in myself, 1017 01:09:36,910 --> 01:09:40,600 it's going to be really easy to turn my back on another. 1018 01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:43,200 Absolutely. Abso yeah. 1019 01:09:44,020 --> 01:09:46,700 Absolutely. Are you still figuring out who the fuck a mic is? 1020 01:09:47,500 --> 01:09:50,860 It becomes more open mo more, uh, 1021 01:09:51,150 --> 01:09:55,580 clear to me regularly, but it's, yeah. I'm still in the process. 1022 01:09:57,440 --> 01:10:01,180 As a person who was raised Catholic, do you, do you believe, 1023 01:10:01,240 --> 01:10:04,260 I'm not gonna ask you what your faith is because I think that's such a nebulous 1024 01:10:04,500 --> 01:10:08,580 question, but what do you believe in a higher power or higher 1025 01:10:09,010 --> 01:10:10,340 consciousness to it all? 1026 01:10:10,970 --> 01:10:15,300 Yeah. What, whatever it is. I think there's something sort of higher, 1027 01:10:15,300 --> 01:10:19,220 whether it be the acknowledgement of your own power, 1028 01:10:19,290 --> 01:10:24,220 whether it be the acknowledgement of something else that's out there that 1029 01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:28,100 can steer you in the right direction. I don't know. 1030 01:10:29,070 --> 01:10:31,700 What I know is it's worth 1031 01:10:33,340 --> 01:10:37,500 considering and working toward 1032 01:10:39,190 --> 01:10:41,170 if not figuring it out, you know, maybe, 1033 01:10:41,900 --> 01:10:43,770 maybe figuring it out is too big a trip, 1034 01:10:44,430 --> 01:10:47,210 but it's worth toward acting as if. 1035 01:10:49,060 --> 01:10:51,360 Acting like that. Yeah. 1036 01:10:52,140 --> 01:10:56,280 Can you let people know the best way to find you, your organizations where, 1037 01:10:56,380 --> 01:10:57,920 how can they dig in? 1038 01:10:58,270 --> 01:11:02,760 Sure. Death Penalty focus is at, um, death penalty.org. 1039 01:11:03,730 --> 01:11:06,340 That'll, that'll get you right to us. Uh, 1040 01:11:06,340 --> 01:11:10,140 concern America is Concern america.org. 1041 01:11:11,400 --> 01:11:15,620 Um, human Rights watch, everybody knows, 1042 01:11:15,820 --> 01:11:19,180 I think it's, uh, human Rights Watch is based in, uh, 1043 01:11:20,060 --> 01:11:24,690 based in New York, but operates worldwide. And I, 1044 01:11:24,810 --> 01:11:28,450 I was lucky enough to be part of the foundation of it here on the West coast, 1045 01:11:29,190 --> 01:11:30,023 um, 1046 01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:36,630 because of the work I had been doing and that we were doing. Uh, 1047 01:11:36,690 --> 01:11:39,510 you know, but there's, it's not just our organizations. 1048 01:11:39,510 --> 01:11:43,150 There are a lot of good organizations out there, amnesty National. 1049 01:11:43,670 --> 01:11:46,670 I keep a really solid links page on hey, 1050 01:11:46,670 --> 01:11:50,310 human podcast.com with things that we've talked about and how to find them. 1051 01:11:50,330 --> 01:11:52,470 And I know you've written books and, 1052 01:11:53,130 --> 01:11:57,230 and so all that information I'll compile so it's easy for people to find. 1053 01:11:57,970 --> 01:11:59,670 Oh, that's very sweet. Thank you. Yeah. 1054 01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:01,510 Thank you so much for your time. 1055 01:12:02,710 --> 01:12:06,490 Oh, thank you so much for caring enough to ask for it. That's, uh, you know, I, 1056 01:12:06,810 --> 01:12:07,170 I, 1057 01:12:07,170 --> 01:12:11,970 I wasn't sure was Bob had in mind when he recommended me, 1058 01:12:12,030 --> 01:12:15,220 but I thought this sounds interesting, so. Sure. 1059 01:12:16,100 --> 01:12:19,470 Yeah. I really appreciate it. And thank you for listening, everybody. 1060 01:12:19,970 --> 01:12:24,430 You've been very generous with your time and with your, your very, 1061 01:12:24,580 --> 01:12:27,470 very good questions. And your interest. 1062 01:12:27,980 --> 01:12:30,790 Your interest is really appreciate it. 1063 01:12:31,200 --> 01:12:33,070 Thank you. I look, I, 1064 01:12:33,550 --> 01:12:36,990 I have an idea of what the world is capable of. 1065 01:12:37,370 --> 01:12:40,550 I'd like to see all of us get there. 1066 01:12:41,470 --> 01:12:42,390 would be great. 1067 01:12:43,130 --> 01:12:47,310 In my lifetime. Who knows? I, I don't know. But I know that it's, 1068 01:12:47,850 --> 01:12:50,790 it does start with exactly that attention, 1069 01:12:51,060 --> 01:12:55,720 love and respect space of listening too. 1070 01:12:56,040 --> 01:13:00,600 I mean, I think we're so busy talking over each other. Yeah. 1071 01:13:00,740 --> 01:13:03,000 And I, and I know that, that cacophony is, 1072 01:13:03,180 --> 01:13:07,000 is placed so that we don't ever have to get so quiet that we hear ourselves 1073 01:13:07,050 --> 01:13:07,883 thank. 1074 01:13:08,020 --> 01:13:09,730 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 1075 01:13:10,270 --> 01:13:14,810 You know, and it's my goal to help facilitate 1076 01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:19,570 conversations where people might listen and, and think, oh, oh, maybe, 1077 01:13:20,100 --> 01:13:23,250 maybe I can think about that just a little tiny bit and just open that window 1078 01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:24,490 just a little bit. You know? 1079 01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:29,570 Good for you for doing this. This is, this is, this is important work. 1080 01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:32,410 Yeah. I feel like it is. Wonderful. 1081 01:13:32,820 --> 01:13:33,170 Thank. 1082 01:13:33,170 --> 01:13:36,810 You. Thank you so much. It's really been an honor and a delight to talk to you. 1083 01:13:36,810 --> 01:13:40,250 And thank you for just being on the planet and making it better. 1084 01:13:41,100 --> 01:13:44,870 Well, it's a thrill for me. Thank you very much. You, uh, you give me hope. 1085 01:13:45,910 --> 01:13:47,430 . Have a wonderful day. 1086 01:13:47,770 --> 01:13:49,470 You too. Bye bye. 1087 01:13:53,220 --> 01:13:54,950 Rate review and subscribe to, Hey, 1088 01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:59,470 human podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Thanks. Bye. 1089 01:14:02,590 --> 01:14:02,630 .