Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan, Ruth here. Thanks.
Listening to another episode of Hey Human Podcast.
This is episode 368, and I had a conversation with Jeff Russell.
Jeff has over 40 years of experience in the sport of fencing as a
competitor coach and club owner. After his wife's death,
he hit rock bottom,
but he's picked himself up and he is been sober five and a half years now.
He's an avid adventurer on foot and bike trails alike,
and he's currently working towards seeing his Amy m Fortune Foundation come to
life. It's mission focused on quote, enabling participation,
enriching lives and elevating communities. He's a very dear friend of mine.
I was really happy that he said yes to coming on the show,
and I think, I think you're gonna get a lot out of this episode.
Check out hey human podcast.com for links.
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stay safe. Take care of each other. All right, here we go.
Jeff Russell, welcome to Hey Human.
Susan, thank you for having me.
It's good to see you.
It's good to see you too.
Welcome to my home abode.
I love it. I love it. .
We are.
Here to talk about you. How do you feel about that?
I, I feel, I feel fine if I give myself too much time to think about it.
I might have come up with an excuse not to show up, but.
Well, appreciate you being here.
Yeah. I'm just gonna be in the moment.
That's a good place to be. Where are you from?
Venice, California. You're.
A unicorn. Yes.
Born and raised. And actually not Venice Beach proper, but Venice Zip Club.
What was growing up? Like.
Traditional square block neighborhood.
Couple of friends in the neighborhood run around,
try not to get in trouble different than it is now. Yeah.
Just as far as the access that we had. You grew.
The neighborhood, you grew up,
you grew up in a time when the door would open in the morning and you were
supposed to come home later that night at some point for dinner. Mm-hmm.
. Yeah. Yeah. Just the rule.
Was generation. Oh, we have children .
The, the, uh, the, uh, rule was, uh, come back before nightfall. Yeah.
So especially during the summer,
we would just be out playing around at other people's houses, hanging out,
going to the park.
There was a park close to to where I grew up and just having the best time and,
oh, it's getting, getting dark. We gotta go home. I.
Saw a funny TikTok the other day and it said, I don't understand. Why did you,
why did Generation Eggs have to drink from hoses? Why not just go inside?
And the response was hilarious. It's, well, we weren't allowed inside .
The door opened in the morning and they didn't wanna see your face in that house
until nightfall if, if not later.
And that's great because, uh, I,
drinking out of a hose is just normal. Yeah.
It was just normal for us growing up. You want some water,
you find a find a hose, there's hoses all over the place.
That's right. Isn't that funny? Yeah. God, it's,
it hurts my brain to think that we grew up in a time now that a lot of people
think of as the olden days.
Oh my gosh. Yeah, completely.
It's annoying, isn't it, ?
Well, I, the, uh,
the thing that gets me is watching movies that are dated and they're dated to
the eighties.
Eighties and nineties. Yeah, both.
Yeah. And, uh, I, I don't think about it that way until I see it. I'm like,
oh my gosh. That was, and just everything, everything about it too. The cars,
the, the dress and, you know, living it and then having it as a reference point.
It's like, wow. Okay.
Yeah. So bizarre. Uh, family was close.
Yes, yes. And, uh, my, my, uh,
grandparents on my mother's side were close and her
sister was close.
So there was an extended family that was always getting together for all the
holidays, spending nights at cousins houses and back and forth.
So there was a lot of, a lot of family time.
And were you close with your sibling, with your sister?
Yes. We actually did a lot of traveling, uh, together when we were younger.
My dad's job would take him around the country and instead of flying to those
consulting assignments,
we packed up a trailer and were able to drive all across the country for
basically three months every summer for probably about nine to 10 years.
And it was phenomenal at the time. It was just something we did.
As I look back now, what a phenomenal experience. Mm-hmm.
. And your dad is in education?
He's an education, yes. He's a teacher and, and also an educational consultant.
And so he spent a lot of time traveling around the country and in some cases the
world offering education,
consulting to different school districts and programs.
He's a famous school guy. Right.
He, uh, one of his colleagues, uh, Dr. Madeline Hunter is, um,
a, uh, psychologist. Psychologist and, uh, in the realm of education.
And just spent years and years and years traveling the country and, uh,
the world offering programs.
Together. Both.
Of them, uh, mostly her. And then they would, uh, do programs,
uh, together in the United States and sometimes outta the United States as well.
And so there were several years where they were traveling around doing programs
together.
Did that create any pressure for you growing up to do better in school?
Or that you had to somehow, uh,
not be psychoanalyzed by your dad's friends, things like that?
Did that occur to you?
Uh, I'm not sure if I,
I would have to probably really sit down and think about it. I,
I tend to not think so as my first response because we started
traveling and being exposed to his colleagues and, um,
the ideas that they would share and talk about from an early age.
So it just became normal.
It became natural for me to have conversations with
people that he was working with all the time, different educators. And,
and he never had rules, but he was always suggestions as far as, uh,
thinking about more than just a one word response. So when somebody,
cuz we would spend a lot of time with adults,
there were some kids around at some of the events, but since we were traveling,
uh, together, we were always at the events.
So he was suggesting that if anyone asks you a question, you know,
try to come up with something more than a one word response .
So that was always fun engagement. Yeah, exactly. That was always fun. God.
Forbid.
Yes.
Sorry about the distraction.
My next door neighbor is the facility and they can get pretty loud.
So apologies to anyone listening and apologies to you if it's a bit distracting.
Uh, hang in there is all I'm saying. Thank you. What
made you decide to go into fencing?
Traditional sports? I was always involved in traditional sports and I,
and I could play them, uh, for sure. And I was always active and,
but there was something about them that just didn't call me a hundred percent.
And somehow, uh, I advertisement, uh, and this is before internet,
but I got ahold of something.
I don't know if I saw a book and it was about fencing.
A flyer next to the water hose.
A flyer next to the water hose. Yeah.
There was someone that was trying to drum up some business and I,
um, was able to call the organization,
or I possibly even sent a letter, uh, and, uh,
to get some more information about fencing in my area.
And I got this huge dot matrix people can look that up.
Dot matrix printed report of all the different clubs in California.
There happened to be one that was, uh, uh,
relocating just probably like 20 minutes from my house in Culver City.
So it was convenient. So I went and gave it a try and it just,
initially it stuck and then I wanted to take a break for a little bit,
and then I had signed up for a summer camp.
I didn't want to go to the summer camp, but my mother said, we signed up for it.
You signed up for it,
let's see you through and if you wanted to stop after that, you can.
And then that was just great. What.
Was it about fencing you liked?
The connection, the mind body, the thinking really quickly, the immediacy of it.
People refer to it a lot as physical chess. And uh,
it's demanding physically as well,
especially when you're training regularly and depending on the level that you,
that you want to, uh, fence at and what, what, what the goals are.
But it was just the physical and mental aspect of it all at the same time. And.
The sweat box of a suit that you're in during the summer.
. And that's something that you, you, you definitely get used to.
And you had aspirations to go into the Olympics.
I did all my teammates and I that we, we all started, uh,
at the same time and we formed kind of a,
a group of four that was really a supportive of each other and we just naturally
pushed each other all in a positive way. We didn't realize it at the time,
but when we look back, it was completely positive and supportive of,
of each other. And, uh,
we all got recruited to college. We all went to college.
We had particular plans as far as when we were gonna be on one Olympic teams and
one of our buddies ended up making a couple Olympic teams. And,
um, and then we all kind of went off on our own as far as training.
And my focus changed when I got to college, which I obviously,
there's a lot of stuff that's happening in college and I think I closed myself
off to, to certain, certain possibilities. But when, but what do you mean? Well,
just, uh, being able to experience the college experience and the,
the learning aspect of it and then the, uh,
what I went there for as far as being recruited and the training that goes along
with that, and just having a healthy balance.
And I think a lot of my choices back in the time were kind of an all or nothing.
So if, if I was being confronted with maybe my training or what was next for me,
it was easier to put my sight on something else and focus on that.
And then step away from, from the training.
Do you mean like as,
as you got anxious over an expectation you toggled to something else? Yes.
Okay. Yes.
Had you always been like that even as a kid?
Uh, yes. Yeah. It started, uh,
probably there was a couple of instances where I,
I felt like I was being challenged in front of a group and, uh,
instead of possibly asking for help or say, Hey, you know, I'm,
I'm not sure what to do next. Uh,
I just really internalized it and then shut down.
And there was some behavior from, uh, teachers at that time that,
uh, allowed me to reinforce that on myself.
So meaning bad teachers.
Uh, teachers that just had a certain way, certain way of doing things. Mm-hmm.
. And, uh, there was, um,
no issues with putting somebody in front of the class and talking about grades
or expectations that the teacher thought about the, uh, the individual.
So that was kind of interesting. And I, I, I just, uh,
turned away from that really quickly. I'm like, yeah,
I'm not gonna subject myself to that.
Humiliation tactic. Yes. That makes sense. Yeah.
How were you feeling about drifting away from the sport that you were sent to
school to do that? That must have been a heavy expectation.
Yes. And there was a lot of, lot of regret. There's a lot of regret. And I,
I tried to put a happy spin on it, but I, I could only do that so much.
And so I pulled back even more.
Which was the regret part. The walking away or the.
The walking away? Mm-hmm. Yeah. One of my teammates very,
very gently just let me know. He,
after people were talking to try to get me to stay,
cuz I was competing regularly for two years.
And then I walked away from the team and one of my,
uh, one of my coaches was not happy about it and,
but was still trying to be positive. But he kept saying,
because I quit whenever we'd interact, you know,
and the quit thing came up and I was really resistant to that. And ah,
I didn't quit. I had to do other things, but in, uh, all reality I did. I,
I couldn't, uh, I was just, it was just too confronting the expectation.
And then where I felt
I was as far as producing and instead of just sitting down and having a
conversation around it and using the network of community that was available to
me, I, uh, I just walked away. And it seemed like it was easier, but it, it,
it built up a lot of resentment and,
and regret all at the same time for years.
Did you grow up in a family that did not talk about their feelings or did not
know, because sometimes as educators, I'm gonna use my parents as examples.
They're both academia people,
so they are more in their head than in their bodies.
When it comes to fostering is, I suppose a good word,
emotional response from kids .
Did you experience that in your house?
Uh, yes, I did. And the conversation would start and then it would,
it wouldn't go anywhere beyond that. So it was kind of like an invitation to,
uh, have a conversation,
but then it required either my parents or myself stepping through
that, that door taking, accepting the invitation either way and saying, Hey, I,
I wanna talk about this more. Mm-hmm. . Uh, and, uh,
there's times when it did happen, especially when I was, was getting older, uh,
and there's times when I realized that it, it didn't seem like it was an option.
Did you lose your scholarship at college?
At that time? There was very, very few scholarships. Uh, I know at,
at my school they had, uh, one and a half scholarships at the time.
Now it's completely different.
So they would take that and spread it around to people that,
that really needed it at the, uh, at the time.
So there wasn't a scholarship attached to my participation. Okay.
But then there was a lot of, a lot of disappointment, a lot of upset,
a lot of uncertainty and concern as well.
Some people were concerned with me being gung-ho and
participating. And, and also the level that I was fencing on the,
on the varsity team. And then that just all went away and it went away.
When I think about it, it went away really quickly.
I think it was just one summer or something came up for me.
I was getting ready to go overseas and train for six months,
and I just couldn't, the, the po the, it just seemed too big.
It seemed too big.
And all the things that I would possibly have to work through,
I'm sure going over by myself and the fencing community is just a huge
community. And I would've been, uh, completely supported. And again,
coming back to, uh,
just reaching out and talking to somebody about it and saying, Hey.
Hindsight.
Right. 20 hindsight. Yeah. Hindsight, I'm feeling anxious about this.
I need some, some coaching. I need some help around it. So I just,
I just shut it down. Cause that's always the best thing to do. Right.
Just shut it down. Just walk away. Wasn't meant to be . Uh,
but it was, yeah, it was tough. It was tough.
So my teammates didn't know how to talk to me.
How did you carry that through the rest of your college days? Did you,
did you graduate from college?
Uh, I, no, I did not graduate. I stayed there for two more years and I, um,
came, I probably was like maybe a semester away. Wow.
What made you quit from? Uh, just little frustration. Just frustration.
I'm sure there was a lot of the, the regret and the,
the resentment that was building up and just not feeling satisfied with
how I was participating in school.
I took a introduction to theater class my freshman year
and just loved it. Just loved it.
And there was just that self-expression and just everything about it.
And I certainly could have participated in the theater department,
not being a theater major, but I was all or nothing.
I'm gonna be a theater major. And there was parts of it that I really,
really enjoyed. And there's other parts I was like, why,
why am I even doing this? And I almost felt obligated. And uh,
then when I start to go down that road,
then it's figuring out how to just get out, which I started to do with the,
with the fencing. So the pattern, pattern continued mm-hmm. .
So I just didn't, I just didn't continue the, to fulfill the,
even some of the basic requirements.
Did your parents have anything to say about that?
They did through listening, but there wasn't, uh, any type of, uh,
I'm putting this in quotes, intervention, no plan.
Was put in place or any.
Help plan, uh, was, was really put in place.
And I think they were going off of what I was saying.
In retrospect are are you irritated by that?
Or are you glad that they didn't push you?
That's, uh, I think there's parts that there, there,
there's a part of me that's like, you know what, why couldn't you fight for me?
Type of a thing, response. But I, I don't think that's the prevailing response.
Uh, I think, uh, just a lot of,
lot of the upbringing that I experienced was in embracing the experience
and going back to the conversations, having certain conversations,
and especially being, being educators, but just parents in general.
I remember my, my,
my dad talking to me specifically one time about just doing the best that he
could, as if it was a bad thing when we were talking,
this was years ago when we were talking about different things about.
He himself doing Yeah.
Yeah. Just doing, doing the best that, that he could as a parent, uh,
as if he was making judgements about that. And that's, that's all we can do.
And I think in the moment they were, uh, uncertain how to,
how to progress with the conversation.
Cause I didn't want to ostracize me in any way,
but then still give me an opportunity to really think about
what I wanna do in the moment, but also looking the future as well.
And I completely could have changed my major. I could have stayed.
I've had a lot of time to think about , how I would've done it.
Uh, do you ever think about going back and finishing?
I, I do. Yeah, I do. And what would that look like? And,
and applying whatever credits I can, but also just starting over,
just finding something that just caused to me. And,
and if I wanna go back to school and continue my education, I certainly can.
Which wasn't accessible to me years ago. I just, it was,
it was just tear too terrifying.
What happened when you left college?
I, I followed my heart, Susan. I followed my heart. I, there was a,
my girlfriend at the time was living in New Jersey,
so that became my next focus point. So like,
it was an opportunity for me to leave school legitimately, you know,
I'm in love. So I, I went to New Jersey and hung out for probably eight,
nine months. Then I With your girlfriend? Yeah. I wasn't,
we weren't living together. She was still living at home.
And I had a little apartment and I found a coaching job,
a fencing coaching job at a high school, which was actually, uh, just a really,
a lot of fun. Just the patterns, the patterns that,
that I've talked about just came into play. And I'm like,
I'll go home now and then I'll start training again.
I was gonna start training again. And you.
Broke up with the girl?
Woman? Uh, I did not, no. Just, uh, oh. Just decided to go back home.
And we were gonna long.
Distance it.
To continue the long distance. Did.
You notice in any of the kids that you were training that they were,
that any of them were on the path that you were on where they,
the glimmer was starting to fade,
but they maybe had talent but didn't know where to put everything,
which boxes to put that all in?
I don't think I was from a, from a specific, just,
uh, teaching the sport and, and these were, uh, high school kids.
I don't think I was necessarily listening that way. Mm-hmm. , uh,
back then, the, specifically around the sport,
everyone was being engaged and having a, having a good time.
But as I look back now, uh, there's a lot of,
lot of experiences that people are getting when they're 10th grade, 11th grade,
12th grade, and, you know,
you have your foundation activities that provide community and teamwork and all
that. And then, then there's everything that happens outside of that.
And for me, the focus was just,
just being responsible for the athletic part of it, the sport part of it.
So I had my time there and then I, and then I would move on.
And you came back to California? Came.
Back to California. I just, I inched back into my house,
my driveway with maybe like fumes, uh, in the, in the car.
It was a quick trip across the country. .
When you said to your then girlfriend,
I think I'm gonna make this change,
was there something brewing in you or was it simply, there's a job,
I'm gonna go take it?
Because it seems that up until that point you were,
you reacted, you weren't really action, you were reaction.
Was that the case there?
Yes. And there was no job that I was moving. I was just moving back home.
I was just.
What, what.
Caused that? I, I just, the, i,
the same things I was feeling when I was fencing, but also in school.
It's just the, the lack of, um, there was nothing that was motivating me,
motivating me there.
And it was still just kind of the whole discovering who I am, where my focus is.
Um, and.
How old were you at that.
Point? Uh, let's see.
I was 22 years after I went to Santa Monica City
College for two years, basically a year and a half.
And then once I got into college, once I, uh, basically transferred,
actually I didn't transfer cause I went in as a freshman.
Wait, you came back and went to school again?
No, no. This is, oh, beforehand? Yeah, beforehand. Yeah. So I was two years,
two years older than freshman. Uh,
so then I think I was 22, 23, 24.
And did you go back to your parents' place?
Yeah, I went back, got a couch, uh,
slept on the couch for a little bit and then ended up moving out.
But e everything at that point, like didn't,
didn't feel like I was being motivated or I wasn't motivated myself.
And there was, didn't seem like there was any prospects. And then the, the,
the safety of home, the idea of home came into the brain.
And so it, there was some relief attached to it.
So of course I latched right onto that, and I'm going home.
I just packed my stuff up, packed my car up and drove all, drove across country.
But there wasn't any kind of breakup or anything like that. You're just,
this is what I'm gonna, yes.
We're just gonna continue. We had talked about.
How did she take that?
I'm trying to think about the, the conversation and how it went.
And I don't know if I can actually remember how,
how the conversation went and, uh, if it's something that I, I'm sure I didn't,
since I decided I was gonna go,
I'm just gonna go and then we'll figure everything out and probably not. Uh,
well, of course not taking responsibility for having a more correct conversation
at the time. Mm, mm-hmm. .
And then this is what we're gonna work on. This is what we're gonna do. If it's,
if we're gonna continue the relationship, if we still want to,
if it's something we both wanna work on, and then make the drive.
I think it was just, I gotta get outta town, I'm outta here.
I gotta get outta town. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, uh.
How long until you broke up after that?
Uh, let's see, because she, she did come out to visit me,
uh, so probably maybe four to six months.
Probably four to six months. Mm-hmm. . And I think it was also a,
a, a passive way of.
Getting outta.
Something. Getting outta something, yeah. And just letting it run its course.
Mm-hmm. . So thanks, thanks for bringing that up, Susan.
You're welcome. . No, it's good. That's good.
You're back in California and you are on mom and dad's
couch and you're trying to figure out what's next and then you decide you're
gonna coach again?
Uh, no, I was gonna train, I was gonna start training again. Oh, okay.
And I just basically didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know where,
and so fencing had always been, um, uh, part of my life at that point.
So I just kind of, it was my safety net mechanism. And I, I hung it on,
I'll start training again. And then I ended up getting a, uh,
a job just working in the equipment store that they had, the fencing center.
So I was around my community and I was still a bit with train and be of service
at, with, at the, uh, equipment store.
And then I think I got a job soon after that at Staples.
And I was working at Staples for a little while,
but still just kind of doing a variety of things,
not really committing to one thing. And that was it. That was it for, for,
for a little while. And I think,
I think truly just from a passion point of view, I,
I knew that I didn't really want to, the fencing is one thing, but,
and I could certainly continue to defense, participate as much as I want to and,
and get what I get out of it. But as far as setting,
setting myself up by saying, I'm gonna start training for the Olympics.
I'm gonna start training and go to Nashville competitions. And I did a couple,
and then I just realized the, uh, just the focus, the motivation wasn't there.
The passion wasn't there. And I enjoyed it, but it wasn't, uh,
it wasn't what I was really looking for at the moment.
It's not what I wanted to focus on.
Do you think you set yourself up for that.
In a way? Oh, certainly. Yeah. Certainly. Yeah. But, and I, and that's,
you know, part of that, that grandiose behavior as far as, yeah, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna make the Olympic team, I'm gonna,
and I was certainly on an, an Olympic path at some point,
or actually a high national level path at some point. Uh,
and then veered away from that,
but then pulled that out of the hat every once in a while to set that, set,
that bar really high.
Hearing all of this, it's very interesting, knowing what I know about you,
which we will unfold and unfurl as we go.
Do you think that that was an indicator of addictive personality?
Uh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, and part of, yeah, it is just kind of the,
the all or nothing. Uh, and it almost takes,
takes me outta the equation as far as not having to,
to think about something or, or just, um, uh, participate openly.
And if it's something that I enjoy doing or if it's a person that I enjoy
spending time with. But it's the, the all or nothing aspect of it. And yeah.
You, you offered up the, the addictive personality part of it,
that that comes in, that comes into play for sure. Yeah.
What happens next?
My grandmother, my grandfather passed away and I moved in, see this,
we're back in 94, and I, um,
ended up sharing an apartment with, uh,
the manager of the fencing center for a couple of months. But before that,
I moved in with my grandmother, cuz she was living in,
in her house and Silver Lake, uh, by herself. And, and there was, uh,
plenty of, plenty of room.
And so I wanted to get outta my parents' house just because I needed to give
them their space. And the couch was only, only available for so long.
But also my grandmother loved the, the company and,
and I really enjoyed spending time with her.
And so I was able to help her out.
And then I was able to find a little bit of a balance on my own
with, uh,
moving into an apartment with my friend that was running the fencing
center at the time. And that lasted probably about eight months.
And then you meet Amy.
Then I meet Amy, yeah. It's.
Just, and Amy was a coach? Or was she a.
Student? She was, uh,
an adult fencer and she had started at another club and then came over to try
the club I was at, which was the largest club in California.
And everyone in southern California at that time ended up at that club at some
point. And it's just one of those things, you know,
I wanna say it was those eyes locked in across a crowded room,
but I think it was me. And then she was involved with somebody at the time,
but the conversation just started.
And she's older than you at this point? She's older. Oh,
she's always older than you?
Older. Yeah, she's older. Yeah. Yeah. .
By how many years?
Seven years. Seven.
Years older.
Seven years. Yeah.
Interesting. Do you think part of you was drawn to the older energy of, oh,
this is somebody that can tell me how to be?
Yeah. Yeah. There's just some safety in that, just for my, as far as,
as far as society says, which I don't subscribe to,
but just as a starting point, the, uh,
I was a late bloomer and I know I bloomed. When I bloomed, I'm still blooming.
So there was a, there was a part of the, the safety of it. Someone that,
you know,
that's can kind of work me through the process and take care of me and be safe.
So yeah. Then there's just, just the energy. Just the energy. Sure. I mean, who,
you know, how, how do we, how do we.
Decide you can't quantify it.
How do we decide? Yeah.
Yeah. It just is what it is.
There's a lot of people that would come through,
come through the fencing center and, but for whatever reason, hey, yeah. Who,
who is that over there?
I divide my time and then she let me know when she was finished with that
relationship. It was at some tournament.
Were you developing a friendship all along? Yeah.
Especially for fencing. I know other sports are the same,
but the way that we train, it's, it's, it's indoors. Uh,
for the most part it's after work as far as the adults are concerned.
And people will go there. Either they have dinner before,
they'll go over there right from the work, and people are training and,
and working out together and in an intense environment for a couple hours a
night. And sometimes three, four nights a week,
depending on how they wanna participate. So.
You hear that singles sounds like, uh,
fencing might be the place to meet a person.
, there's a lot, a lot of bonding. A lot of bonding.
And we'd go out and eat dinner afterwards and just hang out. And again, uh,
community is a big theme for me these days.
And it was just a wonderful community.
And then people would go to their other lives and, and then, uh,
meet three or four times a week to poke each other.
just to have a good time in a physical environment, which is great.
And you and Amy started dating and immediately got
serious?
Yes. Yeah. Our first date we went to Four Weddings and Funeral.
The movie? The movie, yes. We didn't actually go to Four Weddings and.
Funeral. I mean, it's worth asking.
It was, well, that would be a good way. It was, it would be a good,
a good first day. and I, I remember going to that and we, uh,
I think then we, uh, were not together for a week.
We'd see each other at the fencing center, but after the first day,
but then after that, it was basically we were inseparable.
Game on. Yeah. From the beginning.
Did you think this is the person I'm gonna marry?
Well, my, uh, my all in personality and I've had years to think about it. I was,
uh, I I, there was no, and there was a lot of assuming, uh, when I,
when I think about it now, um, but I was just all in right from the beginning.
And so whatever, whatever course that took. And I think there,
there's a traditional approach as far as
having a certain amount of time and then getting married and then,
you know, the family and everything that goes along with that. And I think, uh,
just the, there's a, I guess a certain instinct, something,
it seemed like I didn't have to think about this is the way you do things.
So there's almost on, I, I don't want it to come across incorrectly,
but it almost was like an obligation starting to.
Expectation at least.
Yeah. And oh, that's better. An expectation as far as Yeah.
The obligation comes later, . Yeah. The, uh,
the expectation as far as this is the way that it goes. Mm-hmm. .
And there's some naive qualities to that as well, too.
Was this the first time you'd felt truly in love?
No, I, there was two college girlfriends,
both of 'em lasting about a year and a half.
You were a virgin when you got with Amy. Yes. Yeah. Yes.
So that's interesting to me. If you're willing to talk about it. Yeah.
Especially because I think there's, we.
Can always edit it out if I, uh, choose to later. Yeah. You.
Panic that there's a, an assumption.
Let's say gender males are,
have a proclivity to have sex as soon as humanly possible whenever possible,
right.
But here you say you were in two long-term relationships and you didn't have
sex. Why do you think that is?
There's some insecurity, uh, around that as well. There was some excitement too,
thinking about that. I had some, we had my college girlfriends and I,
we both had conversations around that. And, and there was
just a conscious choice to, uh, to wait.
Uh, not religious? Not.
Not religious, no. A little bit, a little bit on one, but,
but for the most part, just based on the conversations, not,
but part of it was just a comfort level, just to, not to add that,
cuz we were just having such a good time together. Uh,
and there's a lot of things you can do without having sex and, uh, cribbage.
You can do cribbage. Cribbage.
Yes. And, you know. Yes. No, I know. I love we know. Yeah. If you know,
you know, and, uh, now you're making me blush.
I'm sorry. No.
It's good. And I, I like the feeling, I.
Love that we can speak in a dirty joke in there.
. So it was one more thing to add to the, the mix, the responsibility,
uh, and everything that goes along with that. And I, it was just safer.
It was just, it was just.
Emotionally.
Emotionally and also probably, um, yeah, just, just emotionally. Yes.
And as far as the male proclivity, the, the college age,
there was a lot of pressure, a lot of conversation. And I,
I became pretty good about steering conversations away.
People always wanted to know what my situation was.
And they also steered the conversation, you know, in certain ways.
But there was an idea that, you know,
the college males have to be a certain way, especially back in the,
uh, at that time. Sure. Did you.
Feel any pressure? I I Did you, did people come and he like, oh,
are you gay or something? Why are you not sleeping with your girlfriends?
Or did you have any of that kind of, I didn't get any of that pressure.
I feel like that era there was a lot of like, what are you gay? Or,
as if that was some sort of a bad thing. But I.
I never, I never, never got any pressure like that. Oh, okay. Yeah, no,
it was great. Never got any pressure. I mean, I didn't offer up.
Sure.
Uh, lots of opportunities for conversation around that. Um, but, uh,
with a few people, a few of my closer teammates, if, if the question came up,
it wasn't like I was leading with that. But if the, if anyone came up,
I was fine with, with talking about it. What.
Do you think was different about Amy that you thought, oh,
right now I'm gonna do the thing, the sex thing?
I, I, it just, I don't know.
Or older woman maybe. And.
Possibly.
It's interesting how I think about it now as far as starting a relationship with
it with somebody and definitely pursuing that,
that that part of a relationship and having fun with it without the all or
nothing approach to it. Uh, which comes back later for me as well.
Cuz Amy and I were to together for 20 years and there's a certain,
uh,
approach that I thought was needed to
experience certain things in a relationship.
You have to get married and, uh.
Oh, you mean you thought in order to have sex you should get.
Married? Yeah. Well, going forward, yeah. Going, going forward beyond that.
After, after the time with Amy was over.
Uh, okay, hold on. I wanna make sure I understand this.
You're saying that after Amy you believed that you shouldn't have sex with
anyone unless you were married. Uh, that was your belief system then? I.
I don't think it was, uh, an over overt belief system. I just think it was, uh,
from a safety point of view, uh, just as far.
As, you mean like STDs or?
No, just as far as emotional comfort. Got it. Emotional comfort. Thank you.
Okay. Yeah. Emotional comfort. And again, going back to just,
I never casually dated, uh, never had casual sex before,
so it wasn't on my radar. You.
Didn't have any practice at.
That. There's no practice. Yeah. And it's certainly something that, you know,
I can be, if I'm open to the conversation, great.
I can participate at how I see fit. But if I shut it down,
then the only option for me is.
Is all or nothing.
All or nothing. Sure. All or nothing. Which.
Feeds perfectly into what you were right? Yeah. Was a way Amy.
So you meet Amy. Yes. You, you fall in love. Yes.
And you start dating and then you fall in love. What,
whichever order it went in.
Uh, we moved in. She was living with a roommate.
They had actually got a house together. And so we,
we moved in together and got engaged.
And from the start of your relationship, was she already saying things like,
I don't want to grow old or I don't wanna be old, or,
because I know that was kind of a part of her rhetoric.
That, uh, that that came later. You know, that whole first year just.
Blissed out.
Yeah. Just learn, you know, just the adventures, just learning about each other.
We had the, the fencing as a sport. I ended up becoming her coach.
And you were.
Her coach?
Yeah. Oh, interesting. Taking over the,
the coaching duties and she was starting to compete more regularly. And.
How was that combining those two worlds? It was tough. Yeah, I bet.
It was really tough.
It was really tough in the beginning to separate that and we had to work at it
together. And I also had to work at, at it myself, just to really, uh,
take the ego out and, and not personalize it and,
but also set boundaries around that. And that took a while. That took a,
that took a long time. .
I bet. Yeah.
And I'm, I'm laughing cuz when I think about it, I'm like, wow,
we survived that. Yeah.
Because I mean, let's be honest, that's gotta be a tricky scenario.
Yes.
She's a champion too, wasn't she?
Yes. Yeah. And she was not a gray area, uh, person. It was black and white.
Which is actually interesting thing about the, uh, the, uh,
the addictive personality approach. I mean,
when she would lock into something that was it. There was no,
uh, nothing else. And so consequently when she would get pushed over the edge,
uh, about something emotionally and whatever emotion was there,
if she got angry about something, that was it.
And she couldn't see anything else.
And that made her a really fierce competitor, which is fantastic.
She's probably one of the greatest competitors that I've, that I've ever, um,
experienced in seeing just from her mindset. But it came with a,
came with a toll. I mean there was a huge, uh,
a huge price to prey emotionally cuz she was never, and this is,
these are my observations and words over time, but, uh, she was never,
never satisfied. Never satisfied.
And you'll often find that is the case with people that are participating in any
competitive sport that requires a lot of training and,
and technical proficiency because they're, um, the, the wins,
and I'm putting in quotes, the the wins are, are fleeting.
Yeah. They're immediately looking for the next thing.
Completely. And it's almost like getting a fix. It.
Is. Absolutely. It's not even almost like that. I would say that it is,
it is like that.
And somehow.
It's that winning too can be addictive. That's the thing that,
that I think is an important thing to mention and talking about any kind of
addiction behavior doesn't have to be drugs and alcohol.
And I've said that before on the show. Yes, it can be running, it can be eating,
it can be feeling anger that can be addictive.
We see that all over social media, right. There's completely,
completely all sorts of things that will kick off that part of the brain.
And for you,
I imagine having a personality that is all or nothing
emotionally when you're used to running far away from emotions.
What an interesting combination for a couple.
It, it was, it was very, very interesting, uh,
because there was, um, and there's that instinct to, um,
to help but also knowing that help,
help is giving space and help can take the form of
not looking like help by, um,
separation in the sense of not having to be on the person all the time and
trying to get in there and fix it. There's a process to it. And, uh,
in the beginning there was, I was, um,
internalizing personalized everything and it was emotionally really draining.
And I didn't realize it at the time. It was afterwards, I will look back.
I'm like, wow, I invested far more than I needed to, to be the,
the best advocate for her coach, but also a husband, confidant friend,
all that.
And the other part of that is knowing that I can't fulfill all those roles.
It's not my role to do that. And that was part of the all or nothing. Like,
somehow and I,
it came back on me like somehow I'm a failure or I'm less than because I
couldn't provide all that. And that's not my role to, to do that.
And I think in the beginning when we were doing the dance and trying to figure
it out, there was parts of the,
the coaching environment that were really great for both of us.
And there was other parts that were holding both of us back that we just didn't
have conversations around, which was part of our marriage as well. And it was,
it's kind of interesting, the, um, in some cases we were,
were really great at the,
the coach student relationship and other times we were really great at, uh,
the being husband and wife. And it was, it's interesting for me to look at what,
how to merge those two so we can just have the best experience possible in the
moment. And everything that goes along with that. Like,
there was times where I didn't wanna be married to Amy and uh,
I didn't know how to have those conversations with her.
Cuz there was definitely an opportunity for us to have conversations. And again,
my,
my patterns came up and it's like I'll maybe talk about it with somebody else
and then even looking at, well how can I get out of this? Like,
I'm gonna be somehow better or,
or served by getting out of it as opposed to leaning into it and let's have a
conversation about it.
Why do you think it was that you didn't run in this scenario?
Uh, I think in sitting here now having, you asked me that question because,
uh, I knew there was a, a better option. And also there's,
there's the love that was com completely present and I,
and I don't want to automatically say because I loved her,
cuz there's a lot that goes in with that. There's a lot that lot goes,
goes through with that.
So it's not just an obvious because I loved her and that's it,
that's just the beginning of the conversation. So I knew that there was,
uh, something more, it just comes up as there was a better way to do things. Mm.
Uh and also I wasn't satisfied with the way I'd responded to things in the past.
So you're developing a self-awareness of Patty?
The self-awareness? Yes. Yeah. Just of, of the pattern and maybe not, uh,
being able to, uh, verbalize it. Sure. Uh, but more, uh,
reactive and it seemed like I was reacting less a certain way with those things
and maybe because she was really reactive with, she took on that role.
And so maybe it was possible for me to see,
satisfy that need to react a certain way, but she was doing it and then,
you know, I could come in and and fix it. That's in close too, .
Sure. How long into your marriage was she diagnosed?
And did you, did you notice anything leading up to that?
Were there signs that something was amiss?
Uh, there was only some, um, some swelling,
some waxing and weighting swelling that was happening around her,
her thyroid gland and her in her neck. And uh,
but as far as anything physical beyond that, anything,
um, you know, just in her behavior or mm-hmm. , you know,
mental state, there was nothing other than just feeling like she was having, um,
the onset of a flu or something like that.
One of the parents of a client had her father went through the same thing and
just based on the way the swelling, she said to Amy,
you should have this go checked out.
And actually Amy did go and it took us a year to get a diagnosis, just going,
just going through the process and,
and the time and getting the test and some of the tests not being
conclusive. And the other thing is that we found that the doctors,
the ones that we were seeing and participating with in the, in the, in the,
in the programs, uh,
were really hesitant about giving well,
testing for certain things based on the, um, the percentages,
but also then giving the news. And Amy was very, like I said, she was very,
she was very direct with stuff like that.
She didn't want someone to beat around the bush.
If I got something to deal with, tell me. And she had,
she was really upset when the diagnosis for lymphoma first came back
because she felt she lost a whole year of I was.
I wish feel.
That way too. Treatment and everything that went along with that. Yeah. And, uh,
anyway, so then that started a whole nother, a whole nother phase,
a phase of our, of our relationship as it started to progress.
And with our business that we had at the time and treatments and everything,
we actually opened a, a,
a fencing club and I was still working at the other place. Mm-hmm.
. And that was a whole nother dynamic being owners, married, uh,
coach, I mean living together, really mixed stuff. It was 24 7.
So what happens next? She's been diagnosed. And that has to be,
especially for somebody who is a champion athletic person,
to be given this information that there is a tiny thing in
your body that's going to try and destroy you from the inside out. Right.
I mean, how do you wrap your head around that?
I'm still wrapping my head around it. And it was, that was, uh, years ago.
We went through the diagnosis and we got with a specialist, an oncologist that,
that deals with that type of, uh,
lympho lymphoma specifically and got all the typing, which is more testing.
And basically I started a chemotherapy.
I know they have immunotherapy options now that are really effective.
Chemotherapy was really the only option back then.
And she was upset about that cuz it's basically the analogy at the time that
someone shared with her was, it's like fire bombing the, uh,
the inside a of a house to kill a cockroach.
And that's what she said she felt like when she started to go through the
process more in the beginning there's kind of an excitement,
there's a relief that yeah, I'm gonna take care of this.
And then the reality of it and everyone's body handles a little differently,
so there's no one thing. And it just, it just crushed her, uh, from the, uh,
mentally but also from the inside as well.
Just her body was just started completely changed. And I think that's when the,
uh, getting back to what you asked earlier,
I think that's when the conversations first started because her family,
but she wanna leave, she, her family has a, uh, has a history of,
of cancer and she was hoping that it would skip her
generation. She definitely was hoping that it would skip her,
her brother because of his family and his, his, his children and everything.
And her brother's fine. Uh, but it,
it got her and I think early on she was,
she was convinced and she shared as much. She,
it's not a matter of of if it gets her as far as it takes her life, but when,
and I think she started to,
even though the treatments in the beginning were successful,
I think she started to, to kind of change her, her mindset around that,
which was great from a competitor's point of view because it was,
she had nothing to lose when she would go out there and, and compete.
Once she got to a point when she could start competing again and she was just
unstoppable in certain situations. Uh, and then
all the energy would go into that and there wasn't, there wasn't a lot left for,
for, uh, her regular living.
How did her cancer create
a cancer for you two?
Well, I became a caregiver and not full-blown caregiver right away, but the,
just the focus, uh,
changed as far as when she was feeling great, she was feeling great.
And when she was, when we, we got almost 18 months for the,
after the first chemotherapy and then, then she relapsed.
If you don't have a relapse, anything noticeable beyond two years,
the percentages go way up as far as longevity. Uh,
but it was 18 months and then we did a stem cell transplant and that
was a whole different experience.
And then there was another 18 months basically after that. And then, uh,
and then for, for those that had done, no,
a stem cell transplant is basically a complete reset of the, the body,
the system. I think we got maybe six months, eight months.
Uh, and then she had another,
some episodes that started to come up and it was gonna require,
require different treatment and there were some other oral options that might be
available.
But her options were limited because the more you treated with the same thing,
the less effective it is to the point where it just doing more damage.
Were you starting to see her give up then?
There was moments. There was moments and, and, um, that's.
A hell of a lot to put your body through for anyone.
It is. And, uh, she, I mean there was times she was always active,
very athletic. And, and I think the second after the stem cell transplant, she,
uh, was starting to feel good and she was gonna go for a walk. She, uh,
basically shuffled and she described as that she shuffled down to the end of the
driveway and she was just exhausted and she just took a breath and she looked at
the street and then she just turned around and shuffled back. And that was it,
uh, for that exercise.
But also was a big shift for her as far as taking advantage of the opportunities
when she really did feel good, uh, from a, from a, um, from a fencing,
from a training point of view, knowing that there's times when she's,
she's not gonna feel good.
And I think it was after the stem cell transplant and that she started to kind
of relapse again. I think that's when, uh,
she really started to change her,
her mindset as far as she's not gonna be around for much longer.
And just setting things up around that.
There was some one time she went to compete and the doctor told her that they
didn't advise that and she was like, I'm going anyways.
I was proud of that because she was, that's, she was gonna go compete.
She was gonna do it her way and if she dropped dead on the strip, uh,
then that's what happens.
I mean, that's badass.
I it is. That's a, you know, that's a good story. . Well.
How are you taking all of this along the way as you're starting to see that
she's not gonna get through it?
Well, I,
it was difficult for me to have that conversation if I voiced anything around
the fact that she was getting worse, ultimately over time and not better,
that would acknowledge the situation. And I didn't wanna acknowledge it.
I didn't wanna accept it. So I,
I took the ostrich approach on some level and didn't The.
Ostrich approach.
Yeah. Yeah. Just pulled my head on the ground. I didn't wanna look at it.
I was doing most of running the business. And when she was healthy,
she would come in and, and she would participate. And, uh,
everyone just loved her energy. Everyone loved her energy. And,
and from an ego point of view, there's times where I like, Hey, you know what,
who's what about me? Uh, but I got over that really quickly because everyone,
everyone has that. It's just where it, where it gets projected. And once the,
the disease started to take hold cuz it, uh, uh, just the,
the cancer becomes a cumulative effect, any of the treatments.
And so it's then she started having conversations about quality of life. Hmm.
Uh, which again, I, I didn't wanna have those conversations.
I didn't feel prepared.
Of course now my conversations would be completely different,
but at the time I just didn't feel prepared. And,
and part of my role was to be the, uh, the rah rah person,
but also take care of the necessities, run the business, uh, take care of, uh,
the coaching duties, um, you know, whatever needed to happen. And that's when,
uh, when I realized af in the moment sometimes. But looking back,
just the caregiving role, how early it started,
I didn't really think that it started until she got more sick.
But it was in place right from the beginning. And then that, I mean,
there was it was became 24 7.
Who accepted it first?
Oh, she did. She did. Yeah, she did.
Was she mad that you weren't accepting it, or did she understand?
Uh, both, uh, I think, um, we had,
we started to have more conversations, uh, around it. Mm-hmm. , uh,
but not just a hundred percent. Put all the cards on the table. Let's,
let's get into this. When I think back about it, that's upsetting to me now,
and I want to make myself wrong for it,
but I know I was just doing the best that I could in the moment, and it was,
I wouldn't change anything.
And the behavior started to change a little bit around that. Uh,
she would always, she would enjoy her wine beverages,
and it just became the only places she could feel good when she was being able
to drink wine. Yeah. Just have some wine on the couch with, uh,
all of our animals that bonded, completely bonded to her,
and they just surrounded her. They were great charge nurses when, uh, I'm not.
Think animals know when you're sick, they step up and get.
Completely extra completely. They're just pressed up against her. And,
and that was, that was really when she felt the best.
And were you drinking with her at this point?
Yeah, she started me down my, my path of, of drinking.
I don't wanna speak for her, but it just became a, uh, uh, a place of, uh,
well, just feeling like she had some control over something and makes sense.
And it made her, and it made her feel good. And I'm, you know, I'm not one to,
I'm not gonna say anything about it. I mean, if, if there's,
and there was times that she said, I, she thinks she's, uh,
maybe not helping out her health because she might be drinking a little bit too
much and, you know, we just would work through it. But it wasn't anything that,
uh, needed to have a conversation. Uh, beyond that.
I feel like at that point, if you want to eat filet mignon and, you know,
gobs of french fries or you know, oh God, smoke crack, or whatever the hell,
I feel like you're entitled at that point when you know that death is coming,
it seems that the last effort of some control
that you sh really, truly should do whatever you freaking want to your body,
you know.
Completely.
I know this is a right to die state.
Did you help her shuffle off the mortal Coil,
or did she do it on her own terms?
Probably a year before she had started to talk about quality of life, and, uh,
she actually found an organization in Switzerland.
Yeah, I forgot.
The name. Dr. Nietzche. I interviewed him.
Okay, fantastic. I had to look at that.
It's such a good episode. Yeah. A.
Whole kit. Everything. And then you come and you stay. And ,
she actually, you know, signed up for it and there was a certain initiation,
uh, not an initiation, but there was a, there was a fee attached to it. Yeah.
And of course, uh, I, I bulked with the fee.
It's like $35 or something, right? Yeah.
I can't remember what it.
It's not a lot, but it was nominal. I think it's to,
it's to get people to just willy-nilly go get a suicide kit.
, right.
Our right to die laws are pretty messed up that we allow human beings to suffer
so immensely, truly for the people that are surviving. I mean,
it's not for the person dying. They're dying. Right.
And in a lot of cases in misery.
And to have dominion over that part of one's life and death
is an empowering thing. But of course, you,
to fight against all the people who are like, don't go, don't go.
Back then California was not, and, uh, she wanted to move to Oregon. Yeah.
Oregon and Oregon.
And Washington. And there's,
there's now several states that are allowing Right to Die. That.
Was not a conversation that I was willing to have that time. And again,
it'd be completely different now. And I've done some writing about this, uh,
as well and worked with a therapist about it. But, uh, it was always about,
well, what about me? What about me? And just kinda personalizing it,
just like you said, and, and, uh, not being able to, uh,
see a clear path to step out of, out of the way of that.
And really as a, as a caregiver, as a, as a husband, just to really be,
as a partner, to be supportive and appreciative of the opportunity that,
that we have to be able to work through this together. Mm-hmm.
in cleaning up the house,
one time I found a box and I pulled it out and I hear this audible groan
from Amy, I think she was in the same room. And I'm like, Hey, what's this box?
She goes, don't look at it. And it was a, uh,
helium kit and there was a lady in Oregon, I think it was an Oregon,
that was selling these helium kits. And it was, um,
a basically a plastic bag, if you will,
that you would put over your head and it would attach a certain way,
and then you would attach a bottle of helium to it,
and it would, you just turn it on, you go to sleep. And then that's, that's it.
So I, yeah, you can sound like that. And you can, you can laugh.
And until you inhaling of, uh, helium to.
To die for finding somebody in that state seems really over the top.
Because I know for Dr. Nuke, his kits, you just fall asleep. You in, you know,
it's a shot and, and then another shot, and then you're a mess.
Sleepy time then in, you're found sleepy, time peaceful,
or you're the people around you, not with a bag over your head. You,
it's a lot .
Well, and I, to look at, well, and I just rolled my eyes and I just, you know,
I I, I just put it back where I was. I just said, uh, put it back where I was.
And it was only after, uh,
later on when I was cleaning up the house after she had passed away,
that I found the bottle that she got it from Party City. And there was a bottle,
a big bottle of helium that you blow balloons with. And, uh,
she said that she was sitting there one day with it on her, on her head.
And the only reason she didn't do anything is cuz she couldn't figure out how to
complete the attachment to make it work. And I found out some of this later,
after reading her journal,
and she said that I could certainly read that afterwards. And I was horrified.
I was horrified because again, I'm, I, I personalized it. I'm like, you know,
she's not thinking about me or I'm a failure. And coming home to that, like,
part of me, I was like, wow, that would.
That's what I'm saying, coming home to that little intense, it.
Got to the point when things started to really turn, like the 2013 was a,
was a pretty, pretty good year. And we were leading up to December of 2013,
and she, she started to feel really good. She started to feel good.
She was walking more,
and she started to think about anytime she started thinking about fencing and
competing again and training. I, I knew we were going in the right direction.
And then January of 2014, things just changed.
She started to lose balance. We were spending,
spending more time in the hospital. Uh, she couldn't teach anymore. And then it,
it became a situation where we were gonna have to have somebody come in.
And she did not, she did not want anybody to, to be part of it.
She didn't wanna be, she first, she would say it. She didn't wanna be a burden.
She didn't want anybody to, to, to come in. And also there was an, uh,
accepting, uh, of the finality of what was happening.
One of the things I was reading is that the, uh, when you're,
when someone's in the dying process, which I realized that she was in,
after we turned the corner into January,
just the cumulative effect changes the entire body.
And things just start to shut down. And they just do it at, at different times,
cognitive ability changes and the receding of the consciousness, uh, happens.
And I started to, uh, I started to see that, but it, it became a, um,
situation where I would go to work and I was just anxious all the time.
And I know my coaching changed around that time just to where my,
where my focus was. And I was trying to be as even keel as possible.
But then I didn't know what I was gonna find when I came home.
I didn't know if she was just gonna be expired on the couch.
And when she started talking about taking her own life,
I didn't know what I was gonna find.
And also she could have fallen and hit her head.
That happened a couple of times, uh, as well. Uh, you know,
she wasn't planning on that, of course. But things really started to change.
And that's when, uh, I, when I started to, for me,
have that more present realization and
conversation about, this is gonna go a certain direction.
It was April 9th that took her into the hospital, excuse me. Uh,
and that was for the last time. And she was there for a week.
And then I decided to, and that's one thing she said, she goes,
don't let me don die in the hospital. She goes, I'm not, not gonna do it.
And so there was a opportunity to do hospice, and if it was at home or in the,
in the hospital, then I said, no, we're taking her home. And, uh,
so we took her home, set her up in this bed in the living room.
My mom was invaluable. She came over and she still, still low.
Cause she came over and she just spent, I don't know, like two weeks, two,
two weeks. Me, with me.
We were trading hospital runs and I had to come home and get some sleep.
But when we did finally bring her, bring her home, I woke up and, uh, I was,
there was a couch was right by the bed. And, but I just heard this, this noise,
and I'm waking up and I,
I was very aware of her breathing patterns and everything,
and I just hear this ticking, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
And it was one of our little pomeranians just phenomenal little adorable
creatures walking around the bed because they would always sleep with her.
And it was the fingernails on the wood floor because he was trying to find a way
up. And it was tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And so I was able to, uh,
pick him up and I hadn't put him in the bed yet and,
and put him in the bed and he just curled up. And that was it.
So then I would made sure that I got all the animals up there,
and some of them found their own way up there.
The other ones needed to be put up there. But it was a complete,
complete experience that I didn't feel that I was prepared for yet.
I was completely prepared for it by, uh, leading, uh,
with everything leading up to it.
So is that the night she passed away?
Wednesday? That I brought her home, and then it was that Friday. Friday, the,
the, the 18th. April 18th, 2014 at 7:51 AM .
And were you present with her? I.
Was. Yeah. Yeah, it was important. I wanted to, wanted to be there.
And I know the, um, the, the,
the breathing started to change and there's a whole process that the,
that the body goes through. I, I won't describe it.
Was she conscious at all at this point?
No, not at this point.
One of the hospice nurses said the hearing is the last thing to go. Uh,
so there was, when she first came back to the house, I put some headsets on,
played some of the classical music from her, her playing that she,
she loved to hear was talking to her as I, uh,
as I found the words and just being with her. And I remember, um, you know,
holding her hand and,
and just feeling and seeing everything that goes with a
human being. And in this case, Amy taking her last breath.
And it was very apparent, and you could hear it, see it, feel it.
And she inhaled. And then she exhaled. Uh, and that was it.
What an honor that you had Susan.
Completely, completely.
And maybe not necessarily realizing it consciously, that exact moment,
but completely feeling it. And just from a visceral point of view.
And there was a relief. There was a, there was relief. It's a lot. And I, uh,
there's still part of me, uh, I have to be honest, that feels, um,
there's, um, there's a regret. Um,
there's almost a, sorry, a resentment. Like I didn't do enough. And,
uh, that's part of my, my process completely. That's part of my journey. And,
uh, but I know that I did, I did everything I was supposed to do.
Well, I can offer to you this,
that for a person like you who had had a history of running and getting
as far away from that kind of feeling within you as possible,
that you stuck it out through the very end. This is a huge,
that's huge. So.
To honor.
Yourself for.
That, thank no, I, I feel that, and she, uh,
she even said as much in her journal, she would write when she was sick,
and she wouldn't write when she was feeling well. And so she had a,
a journal that was intermittent over, over seven years. And, uh,
and she would even talk about that. And she would talk about she didn't know.
Uh, she didn't know, first of all, she didn't know why I stuck around .
And, uh, she knows, and she said she, she couldn't do it with,
uh, without me.
That's a big deal. That must have been surreal to read those journals.
It was. And she actually, um,
I know I shared it with you, uh, before,
but she wrote a goodbye letter and, uh, as she found it,
she wrote it in October of 2013.
So it was basically six months before she passed away. Again.
I cleaning up the desk, guess I'm always cleaning stuff.
But I pulled out some paperwork and I, I'm like, oh, what's this? And she goes,
she goes, oh, that's your goodbye letter. And I was like, what? She goes,
you can read it if you want to. And I,
there's times where I wish I had read it at that time so that we could
have had a conversation around it. And, uh, maybe it was an invitation for,
for her saying that for me to, uh, to read it. And then, um, and I said, no,
I'm not gonna read that. And I think I said, I'll wait. I'll, I'll wait to,
I'll wait for later. Something like.
That. I'm sure that was a moment of like, no, I'm not gonna read that.
Cause if I read that, that means it's inevitable. Yeah.
And there's still that fight against the inevitable.
Inevitable. And actually after, when I did read it, of course,
it was a brilliant, it was one page. It was brilliant.
It touched on everything that she wanted, I think wanted.
To, I sent it to me once I, I think I read it. Yeah.
Yeah. I, uh, I touched on everything. Touched on everything that,
that she wanted to convey. I mean,
it was basically 20 years of her relationship sh summed up in a letter and it
was just, it was perfect. Touched on the animals, you know, touched,
touched on a few things that she wanted to share. Uh, and it was just,
it was great.
How are you doing, by the way? I'm, I'm.
Doing good, . I'm doing good. You're making me.
Cry too. No, I mean, I cried too. It's okay. Tears. I was crying also. I'm sure.
No was all tears of love and gratitude and joy. It's a lot. And just the beauty,
the beauty that comes with it's lot.
I, I have been with people when they've pa you know,
in the leading up points and also in the moments. And, and it's,
it's a big honor. It's painful, but it's a big honor. She passes away.
And how do you deal with that? When does the,
the downward spiral begin?
Well, the downward spiral , if we're gonna characterize it, ,
put a nail, put a label on it started before. Mm. And as,
as I mentioned, we talked about just really enjoying the wine tasting weekends.
And there's some wine tasting weekends that we would go away and drink a lot of
wine. And there's other times when we didn't,
we would just do a little taste and spend money on food or just out adventuring.
But then, uh, for me, after the,
the caregiving and then the working and coming home, uh, late,
there was about once I was able to put her to bed,
and she was medicated to the point where she would be, you know,
two to three hours. And sometimes we would get more than that,
sometimes the pain would just cut through. And she had a high tolerance. Uh,
so sometimes there was, there was a lot of medication and it,
it did its job and sometimes it just didn't. But there was a two,
three hour period of time where I would just sit on the couch
in complete silence. Sometimes I would watch tv, sometimes I would listen to,
to music. And the, the wine drinking, it wasn't taste anymore.
The wine drinking didn't work for me.
And a part of me looking back realizes that I just wanted the bottom to drop out
for a couple of hours so I could just completely detach.
And, uh, that's where some of the, some of the higher,
harder alcohol was came in. And we'd always have tequila around and,
and have fun in traditions with that.
But then there was other options that became available where I could
actually get some,
get some drinking going that would affect my mindset and my,
my body just relax me,
make me less conscious of what was going on faster.
That started a pattern that started a pattern of, basically became a,
a nightly ritual.
And there was times that Amy needed some help doing certain things.
And I became really hyper aware of sounds. So like,
if there was any rustling or, or changing of sounds coming from the bedroom,
I was on it right away.
And I had this kind of back and forth conversation about maybe I
should be more present and aware. Maybe I should be drinking as much.
Maybe I should set. Anyways, that conversation was kind of there. But.
Did she know you were drinking?
Oh yeah. And I tried to pretend when, there was a couple times when, uh,
I went into, she wanted to have a conversation. Excuse me. She got up,
I was putting myself to bed, and she would wanna have a conversation.
She would wake up and she even asked me one time, she goes,
are you out there drinking? I'm like, no, no, I'm not.
And of course when someone said, no, no, they're not.
And they've been drinking a lot, there's nothing they can, you know,
they can say. But I, I was sure that I was in control of, of the situation.
And, uh, and I know I wasn't slurring my words, which means that I was so,
and she was concerned about that. She even wrote about that in her journal.
She says, I think I turned Jeff into an alcoholic, which she can't.
But again, bearing the responsibility just based on, uh, personalizing it.
And I do appreciate that on some level,
that she wanted to take that responsibility. But that was all me.
That was all me. And just, uh, it just became a, a regular routine.
And there was a part of me that, because that's not that I was gonna say,
it's not my personality, but it's not a choice that I would make for myself.
It's something that was easy, accessible, and it wasn't, uh,
it wasn't too hardcore. You know, I can, I'm not doing the hard drugs.
I'm not doing anything else. I never found that stuff. It was easily accessible.
It's socially accessible. Um.
You didn't steal any of her.
Medicine? I didn't. And yeah, didn't, even after she passed away,
which was like, I, there was not, I mean, she had some heavy duty stuff,
I'm sure. And I was like, Nope.
I took it back to the doctor once I knew that they weren't gonna need it
anymore. And they disposed of it properly. But, so yeah, the, the,
the social acceptance of the, of the alcohol was easy. It was,
it was easy for me to say, it's okay if I do it a little bit.
And really thinking that I, it, since I never, I never drank college. I never,
you know, I was always focused on, uh, on other things. And,
and maybe part of it, maybe there's part of me that know,
knows that knew about the addictive personality, that if,
if I enjoy something too much may, maybe I would've.
So it was better for me not to even experience it, which I never did,
except for one time when I turned 21. Uh, but yeah,
that it became a nightly habit.
Then it started to become a daily habit and not just a nightly habit.
I remember very vividly sitting on her corner of the couch, wrapped in her,
her blanket, sobbing into a glass of wine, probably half tears, half wine. Yeah.
You know, not, not really interested in it, but it was just kind of a habit.
But there was a period of time for several weeks,
maybe even several months afterwards that there,
that wasn't something that called me at all. Grief.
Was your addiction during that grief? Was it grief? Was it, which.
Can be its own addiction as well. Completely. Yeah.
If that's an all consuming thing. I.
Was looking for external, outside ways to, to deal with that grief. Cuz I was,
again, speaking as far as the, going back to the avoiding stuff. I wanted to,
I knew it was coming. There was a,
there's this tsunami of stuff that was coming. So things that were building up.
Were you left with insane medical bills?
Fortunately, no.
The insurance that somehow she got on that we,
even though the premium started to go up even before she got sick, we kept,
we kept paying it. We actually had an advocate that deals specifically with,
I think it's high risk transplant, uh, situations, patients.
And this person just walked us through the whole procedure about what's
everything that's covered and the doctors and the hospitals and everything.
And it was great. It was a godsend. It was a godsend. Yeah.
We didn't have to have to pay anything at that point.
So you're starting to pick up your drinking to numb out to escape.
Was there an awareness while you were doing it?
Or was it real detachment in that point?
Uh, there was, yes,
there was an awareness and I didn't want to deal with it at the moment.
Both things. Yeah, both things. So there was awareness and,
and then it started to, um, it started to affect my work.
It started to show up in my, in my, just my personal life.
And I know there was friends and family that were concerned. But you, it's,
it's hard to, uh, I think I, and again, it's, it's interesting how I, how,
how i, how I balk at, wanted to use this word. But I have to look at it when I,
if I balked at that. But I,
I became a manipulator as far as manipulating the situation. And,
and for me, it, it always, uh, if I'm a happy, positive individual,
it's okay type of a thing as far as can I kind of quantifying or qualifying,
you know, uh, how something is good or bad. And of course, that's personal.
It's, it's all, it's all perception. But regardless,
I figured out how to manipulate the situation so I can have some wiggle room.
I heard somebody talking about that with, uh, with their addiction.
And there was wiggle room and I was trying to survive in that wiggle room.
So I didn't commit fully, you know, one way or the other. Uh,
and that wiggle worm is like, uh, the wiggle worm. A room, sorry,
wiggle worms and ostriches. It's all, yeah, there's.
A, there's a title for the.
Show. That's the title. Yes. , that's a great wiggle worm. But I, I, I,
the wiggle room got smaller and smaller and smaller,
and that was over years, but it got smaller and smaller and smaller.
So I had to, I had to choose a path, which I still didn't choose it on my own.
I left that to somebody else.
How do you mean?
Uh, because, uh, probably six, seven months,
I think seven months after Amy passed away, I had mentioned
wanting to feel normal and feeling normal for me.
And I was specifically talking about being able to go out a date,
take somebody out, feel normal, just to go out, have a meal,
have some wine in a social environment.
Outside of anything that I was doing with work. One of my, uh, friends,
uh, set me up on a blind date with somebody that, that they knew.
And it was against, I, same thing, you know, I created this,
this, uh, almost an expectation around it went on the first date.
She was not looking to date anybody full time.
It was just to get out and have an experience. And, uh,
she would allow me to quote her, but she was just looking for, uh,
dinner and sex two or three times a month, no texting.
I don't wanna meet the person's parents, leave me alone type of thing.
That's it all, you know, just satisfy the, what the needs are. And I, that was,
um, date number one. And then two weeks later we had date number two,
and then that was it. And when you're talking about game on, it was back to the.
Same behavior of being all in or you're actively drinking during this time?
No, no. I was, uh, yeah, socially there was, it was social.
Okay. But you weren't going crazy or blackout drunk or anything.
That No, and I never, that was never my MO either. Okay. As far as the,
you know, the blackout or the, you know, throwing up all the time mm-hmm.
, it was just, you know,
I would reach that level of feeling really good. And then.
It was a numbing device. It was a.
Numbing device.
Yeah. Okay. So you end up marrying the blind date woman.
Yeah, I gotta do it.
. How long were you dating before you got married?
It was a year.
Sheesh man. You moved quick.
Yeah, I gotta, you know, see what I like .
And how long did that go? Two.
Years As far as officially uh, being, being married.
But I think in the relationship for, for four years.
Do you think you jumped into that so you didn't really have to deal with all the
things that were coming at you? Yes.
And again, I, I didn't want to.
A new distraction.
It was a new distraction. I mean,
we didn't have to go to down the marriage route.
We could have experienced the things that we wanted to experience without,
but for me, that was safety. That was a safety as far as the, the intimacy and,
and also safety in a sense of knowing that possibly some things were gonna catch
up to me. And, uh, I would have a, um,
support network built in a completely selfish, completely selfish,
uh, and yet.
What was the auger of the end?
It was, the drinking episode started to become more frequent.
So you'd started drinking up?
I started and, uh,
starting to get desperate and desperate just as far as the financial
situation. Uh, but also,
and there was a shift in my mindset after we got married,
and there's some other people that close to me that had mentioned that as well
too. I didn't wanna be in that situation.
Marriage.
And Yeah. Should have this conversation before it should have after. No,
that's, and uh, but then, uh,
the behavior that was spiraling down and.
Do you think you were drinking more in a way to have her say, Hey,
there's something wrong here,
and make her leave instead of the other way around?
I, I would've,
would've showed you to the door if you had even suggested that at the time. But,
uh, a hundred percent mm-hmm. a hundred percent. And it was a, um,
it was a passive aggressive way. It was a passive aggressive way to, to put the,
the responsibility on somebody else. Mm-hmm. .
And then I get to be a victim. Mm-hmm. Susan, you know,
that's the best way. Mm-hmm.
.
Sure. It's just, yeah. It's easier, it's easier that way.
And I'm joking of course, uh, because it's not, it all comes back.
It all comes back.
And also the second person ever you've ever slept with.
And the second person. Yeah. I was making, I was getting some notches, you know,
I'm like, let's, let's do this number two. And.
You're like, I wanna sleep for this woman, so I'm gonna ask her to marry me.
And, uh, Susan, I'm, I, I laugh, but Yeah. Yeah. And again, it was a,
it was a comfort. Maybe there's the fear of being, and.
There's nothing wrong with wanting to be married in order to have sex. There's,
you know, there's nothing wrong with that at all.
But for somebody that has already, you know,
with the boundary stuff and,
and addiction stuff and just all, all of that around you,
it's certainly a red flag.
Uh, completely. Yeah. Completely. And I'm all about green flags these days.
Yeah. Yeah. That was a red flag. But completely . But, but completely.
And.
And I'm sure that she is also bringing her stuff to the table as well.
We don't need to talk about that, cuz Right. She's not here to,
to talk about it. Right.
But there's a lot of red flags throwing around the field .
And we have, and yes, I'm not gonna speak for, but we have,
Elizabeth and I have talked about, we've had great conversations now mm-hmm.
and we've had a, uh, we're we're able to revisit our,
our relationship and the love that we, we have for each other still. And,
and just everything we, uh,
we share and will continue to share and we get to build a completely different
foundation for friendship that, that, um, is sustainable. Yeah. And.
Would you say the drinking then created the death Noel?
Or do you think that it was gonna happen regardless?
Definitely. The drinking speeded up.
I had an episode where I knew that it was gonna be a problem
the next day. Uh, Elizabeth had it to vet that if she was going to, and,
and I was gonna go there to support her.
And I didn't make the best choices in the day. And, uh,
so I was basically sleeping off and I was just drilling on myself in bed for the
whole night. And she was, she had to operate, she had to be on for her event.
And she was kind of completely devastated and just concerned and everything.
She gave me a loving ultimatum the next day, and she gave me three things.
And she said, I, and she actually,
we set up a time to talk so we could talk about it.
And I just knew that everything was gonna be completely different.
And my wiggle room had, there was none left.
And she brought up three things and she said, one of 'em was like, I'd like,
she all suggestions. She said, I'd like for you to go find a therapist to, uh,
to talk to. And I said, okay. And then the,
the second one she said, uh, is, uh,
I'd like for you to go check out a meeting.
And she actually brought one up that was closed and she said,
AA meeting an a meeting. Yes. Uh, there's one, there's one here. And she goes,
just go see if there's something that resonates, uh, with you, which was great.
And then the third one, she goes, and I need to know what our finances are.
And of the three, the third one was I,
I was most terrified about because I was just
not paying attention to the finances.
I was just running everything into the ground. I,
I thought that I had to present a certain lifestyle or else everything would go
away. Everything was going away already. But I was just scratching, clawing,
and just trying to, you know,
I was in desperation mode and I went to a meeting and I didn't identify.
I just was listening and I wasn't listening with,
with everything that I had to offer.
But I did find something that resonated with me.
And I started to get comfortable toward the end of the meeting.
Didn't look at anybody, of course, cuz that would be, you know, I don't,
I don't belong. I'm not supposed to be here. Uh, but it was great.
And then I was able to have a chance to just kind of think about that experience
over the weekend and then just started to open that door.
And did you actively quit drinking at that point?
Uh, yeah. It was, uh, Thursday, January 18th, 2018. Yeah. That.
Was, and you've been sober ever since? Uh.
Sober ever since, yeah. So it's fine. Thank you. Uh, it was, uh,
it just complete personal transformation that happens with
active participation and that just goes for anything that I'm,
that I'm participating in.
And did did you find Zeke right away?
Uh, my main man, Zeke, uh,
he showed up in March cuz that was one of the requirements and was therapy was,
uh, was to go talk to somebody. And again,
just to see how it resonates for the most part, once a week ever.
Since. So that was two of the three requirements. What happened?
Two of three happened when the finances came rolling out.
Well, uh, Elizabeth actually said she, she was shocked. A good way.
You were blowing up your life. I.
Completely, Susan, I mean, talk about the sabotage. I,
I put things in place all over if one thing didn't work out the way that I
wanted to as far as the sabotage something else would have. And again,
that's just, it's horrifying for me to think about it. But it's the truth.
It's the truth. And it gives me a chance to, to say, okay, let's,
let's look at what some of the behaviors are around certain things.
And as my main man, Zeke says, let me lean into it. ,
let me lean into it.
And how long after that discussion did you and Elizabeth divorce.
Finalized? Officially, uh, 2018 in December.
Do you think some part of you set yourself up for failure with Elizabeth out of
guilt for not being whatever it was you thought you were supposed to be?
For Amy?
I'm sure, I'm sure.
I actually went through a whole period of feeling guilty about getting involved.
It's like I almost couldn't win at that at that time. Sure. Uh,
for myself as far as feeling guilty about moving on whatever the moving on
means, cuz it's not moving on. It's just continuing my, uh, life.
It's not linear on, I'm sure. Exactly. Yeah. And,
but just really being in that moment, uh,
thinking that something had happened a particular way, a certain way,
and there was a, you know, it's, there was an exit stage, right. Option.
. Were your family aware that this was happening?
Did your sister or your parents say, whoa, Jeff, there's some,
there's some crazy shit going on around you. Right? No. Nobody said a word.
No. And it's hard. It's hard, Susan. It's hard. It's hard for people to,
especially when there's the connection, the love, the family, the, the,
even my teammates, the friendship. And unless it's hard for them,
it's hard for people to, to do like an intervention style.
And also that would not have worked with me until I open the door,
until I say something.
And I can remember the first time that I called my mom and said that I went,
you know, I'm identifying as an alcoholic and I need help. And, uh,
that was just a completely different world for her because nothing was an issue
with me. I'm, I'm happy, I'm positive I'm this, I'm rah rah,
I'm not an alcoholic. And, uh, I don't look like an alcoholic.
My perception of what an alcoholic is until I went into the rooms the first time
and stood up and identified and I, I gladly stood up for 30 days and I'm like,
yeah, my name is Jeff. I'm an alcoholic. You know,
I'm smiling all the time because it was taking ownership of it, which I don't,
I didn't, uh, I didn't, I hadn't really done before. Um.
Oh, and it sounds like it gave you an identity,
albeit an interesting one for somebody who was struggling their whole
life to find an identity. Yes.
And the, and the community.
Well, this all, now that we are here, here we are today. Yes.
Whatever day it is. And you are still coaching.
Yes. I And you have included, in fact now you coach folks with disabilities Yes.
And you're into bike riding and so you're,
you're really discovering who and what and why you are, it seems like,
and you've been going to Zeke forever now, and Yes. And how are you feeling?
I'm feeling great. I'm feeling great. I, uh,
my mom would always remind me that I told her when I was really young that I was
gonna live to a hundred. Oh, that's sounds awesome. So I'm, I I was like, I'm,
I'm on the, I'm on the side of that now, but I, I, I feel great.
I feel great physically, I feel great emotionally, spiritually, everything.
Mm-hmm. the journey for me, uh,
is finding my voice and that I do have a voice and whatever comes out of my
mouth, my mouth is great. If it's a wiggle worm, that's perfect.
I like the idea of a wiggle worm. , uh,
tell people who might be interested in fencing or whatnot.
Tell people how they might find you out there in the world.
The foundation that I'm in,
the process of starting that offers programs of, of support and,
and continued sports education is called Amy Fortune
Foundation.
And the email to that is amy fortune foundation gmail.com.
In honor of your late wife.
Uh, exactly. And, uh, she was a, um, professional musician.
She was a phenomenal athlete and an equestrian.
And it's kind of the idea of providing opportunities for parts of a population
that might not have access to certain activities that
have, are very beneficial. The, uh, the community aspect of it as well too.
Yeah. That's great. And fortune is traditional spelling.
It's traditional spelling. Yeah. And I'll put links on hey. Yeah, yeah.
I'll give you the, the link, uh, for that. Jeff. Thank you, Susan. Thank you.
That was great. How do you feel? I, I feel good. Okay, good. I, I feel good.
I'm ready to, I'm ready to go. Ready to take on the rest of the day. Good.
Am I sweating? How much am I sweating? I feel it. I'm glistening.
. You did wonderfully Thank you. And I appreciate it.
And thank you. Thank you for listening everybody. Bye.
Rate review and subscribe to Hey,
human Podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. Bye.