1 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,140 Hey, humans. How's it going? Susan, Ruth here. Thanks. 2 00:00:11,140 --> 00:00:14,220 Listening to another episode of Hey Human Podcast. 3 00:00:15,690 --> 00:00:20,500 This is episode 368, and I had a conversation with Jeff Russell. 4 00:00:21,370 --> 00:00:26,060 Jeff has over 40 years of experience in the sport of fencing as a 5 00:00:26,060 --> 00:00:30,220 competitor coach and club owner. After his wife's death, 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:31,380 he hit rock bottom, 7 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:35,180 but he's picked himself up and he is been sober five and a half years now. 8 00:00:35,730 --> 00:00:39,820 He's an avid adventurer on foot and bike trails alike, 9 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:45,260 and he's currently working towards seeing his Amy m Fortune Foundation come to 10 00:00:45,260 --> 00:00:49,780 life. It's mission focused on quote, enabling participation, 11 00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:54,740 enriching lives and elevating communities. He's a very dear friend of mine. 12 00:00:55,100 --> 00:00:58,980 I was really happy that he said yes to coming on the show, 13 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,500 and I think, I think you're gonna get a lot out of this episode. 14 00:01:03,430 --> 00:01:06,260 Check out hey human podcast.com for links. 15 00:01:06,260 --> 00:01:10,180 And to learn more about my guests in the show, check out Susan ruth.com. 16 00:01:10,180 --> 00:01:14,900 To learn more about me and my other artistic endeavors, follow Susan Ruth ism. 17 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:19,740 And hey, human podcast on social media. You can find my albums on Spotify, 18 00:01:19,990 --> 00:01:24,460 apple Music, Amazon music, or wherever you get your music. Look for my album. 19 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,380 All I ever wanted was everything. And how to Say Goodbye. 20 00:01:27,380 --> 00:01:29,780 Those are probably my two favorites. Also, 21 00:01:29,780 --> 00:01:33,660 check out my relationships and sex show with sexologist and healthcare 22 00:01:33,700 --> 00:01:38,260 practitioner, Mara Edelman. It's on YouTube called Are We There Yet? 23 00:01:38,260 --> 00:01:41,900 Podcast show rate review, and subscribe to Hey, 24 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:45,380 human podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. 25 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,340 And thank you for listening and thank you for spreading the word and sharing 26 00:01:49,490 --> 00:01:53,980 this with everyone you know. I really appreciate it. Be well, 27 00:01:54,330 --> 00:01:58,660 stay safe. Take care of each other. All right, here we go. 28 00:02:00,710 --> 00:02:02,600 Jeff Russell, welcome to Hey Human. 29 00:02:02,970 --> 00:02:04,560 Susan, thank you for having me. 30 00:02:04,790 --> 00:02:05,680 It's good to see you. 31 00:02:05,750 --> 00:02:06,583 It's good to see you too. 32 00:02:06,710 --> 00:02:08,720 Welcome to my home abode. 33 00:02:08,920 --> 00:02:10,400 I love it. I love it. . 34 00:02:11,180 --> 00:02:12,040 We are. 35 00:02:12,190 --> 00:02:14,080 Here to talk about you. How do you feel about that? 36 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,840 I, I feel, I feel fine if I give myself too much time to think about it. 37 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,640 I might have come up with an excuse not to show up, but. 38 00:02:20,870 --> 00:02:22,120 Well, appreciate you being here. 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:23,200 Yeah. I'm just gonna be in the moment. 40 00:02:23,740 --> 00:02:25,240 That's a good place to be. Where are you from? 41 00:02:25,780 --> 00:02:27,720 Venice, California. You're. 42 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:28,560 A unicorn. Yes. 43 00:02:28,590 --> 00:02:33,280 Born and raised. And actually not Venice Beach proper, but Venice Zip Club. 44 00:02:33,350 --> 00:02:34,360 What was growing up? Like. 45 00:02:34,710 --> 00:02:36,440 Traditional square block neighborhood. 46 00:02:36,540 --> 00:02:38,920 Couple of friends in the neighborhood run around, 47 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:43,040 try not to get in trouble different than it is now. Yeah. 48 00:02:43,190 --> 00:02:45,280 Just as far as the access that we had. You grew. 49 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:46,240 The neighborhood, you grew up, 50 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:49,640 you grew up in a time when the door would open in the morning and you were 51 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,280 supposed to come home later that night at some point for dinner. Mm-hmm. 52 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:53,640 . Yeah. Yeah. Just the rule. 53 00:02:53,900 --> 00:02:55,600 Was generation. Oh, we have children . 54 00:02:56,340 --> 00:03:01,180 The, the, uh, the, uh, rule was, uh, come back before nightfall. Yeah. 55 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:02,500 So especially during the summer, 56 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,940 we would just be out playing around at other people's houses, hanging out, 57 00:03:06,940 --> 00:03:07,580 going to the park. 58 00:03:07,580 --> 00:03:11,580 There was a park close to to where I grew up and just having the best time and, 59 00:03:11,580 --> 00:03:13,860 oh, it's getting, getting dark. We gotta go home. I. 60 00:03:13,920 --> 00:03:17,900 Saw a funny TikTok the other day and it said, I don't understand. Why did you, 61 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,900 why did Generation Eggs have to drink from hoses? Why not just go inside? 62 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,700 And the response was hilarious. It's, well, we weren't allowed inside . 63 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:30,580 The door opened in the morning and they didn't wanna see your face in that house 64 00:03:30,710 --> 00:03:32,700 until nightfall if, if not later. 65 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,500 And that's great because, uh, I, 66 00:03:36,940 --> 00:03:39,740 drinking out of a hose is just normal. Yeah. 67 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,260 It was just normal for us growing up. You want some water, 68 00:03:42,260 --> 00:03:44,740 you find a find a hose, there's hoses all over the place. 69 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,540 That's right. Isn't that funny? Yeah. God, it's, 70 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:53,580 it hurts my brain to think that we grew up in a time now that a lot of people 71 00:03:53,580 --> 00:03:55,140 think of as the olden days. 72 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,500 Oh my gosh. Yeah, completely. 73 00:03:57,530 --> 00:03:58,660 It's annoying, isn't it, ? 74 00:03:58,660 --> 00:03:59,740 Well, I, the, uh, 75 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,940 the thing that gets me is watching movies that are dated and they're dated to 76 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:05,553 the eighties. 77 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:06,980 Eighties and nineties. Yeah, both. 78 00:04:07,090 --> 00:04:10,660 Yeah. And, uh, I, I don't think about it that way until I see it. I'm like, 79 00:04:10,660 --> 00:04:15,140 oh my gosh. That was, and just everything, everything about it too. The cars, 80 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,100 the, the dress and, you know, living it and then having it as a reference point. 81 00:04:20,100 --> 00:04:21,020 It's like, wow. Okay. 82 00:04:21,250 --> 00:04:24,620 Yeah. So bizarre. Uh, family was close. 83 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,060 Yes, yes. And, uh, my, my, uh, 84 00:04:28,180 --> 00:04:32,940 grandparents on my mother's side were close and her 85 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:34,580 sister was close. 86 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,180 So there was an extended family that was always getting together for all the 87 00:04:39,180 --> 00:04:42,820 holidays, spending nights at cousins houses and back and forth. 88 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:44,460 So there was a lot of, a lot of family time. 89 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,540 And were you close with your sibling, with your sister? 90 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:52,220 Yes. We actually did a lot of traveling, uh, together when we were younger. 91 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,780 My dad's job would take him around the country and instead of flying to those 92 00:04:57,270 --> 00:04:58,420 consulting assignments, 93 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,060 we packed up a trailer and were able to drive all across the country for 94 00:05:03,060 --> 00:05:06,220 basically three months every summer for probably about nine to 10 years. 95 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,660 And it was phenomenal at the time. It was just something we did. 96 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,980 As I look back now, what a phenomenal experience. Mm-hmm. 97 00:05:13,020 --> 00:05:15,060 . And your dad is in education? 98 00:05:15,250 --> 00:05:19,820 He's an education, yes. He's a teacher and, and also an educational consultant. 99 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,820 And so he spent a lot of time traveling around the country and in some cases the 100 00:05:24,820 --> 00:05:28,180 world offering education, 101 00:05:28,390 --> 00:05:31,460 consulting to different school districts and programs. 102 00:05:31,890 --> 00:05:34,180 He's a famous school guy. Right. 103 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:39,140 He, uh, one of his colleagues, uh, Dr. Madeline Hunter is, um, 104 00:05:40,660 --> 00:05:45,540 a, uh, psychologist. Psychologist and, uh, in the realm of education. 105 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,500 And just spent years and years and years traveling the country and, uh, 106 00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:52,540 the world offering programs. 107 00:05:52,780 --> 00:05:53,380 Together. Both. 108 00:05:53,380 --> 00:05:57,820 Of them, uh, mostly her. And then they would, uh, do programs, 109 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,620 uh, together in the United States and sometimes outta the United States as well. 110 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,620 And so there were several years where they were traveling around doing programs 111 00:06:05,780 --> 00:06:06,400 together. 112 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,180 Did that create any pressure for you growing up to do better in school? 113 00:06:10,280 --> 00:06:12,540 Or that you had to somehow, uh, 114 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,820 not be psychoanalyzed by your dad's friends, things like that? 115 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:17,820 Did that occur to you? 116 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,780 Uh, I'm not sure if I, 117 00:06:20,980 --> 00:06:22,900 I would have to probably really sit down and think about it. I, 118 00:06:23,180 --> 00:06:27,900 I tend to not think so as my first response because we started 119 00:06:27,930 --> 00:06:31,820 traveling and being exposed to his colleagues and, um, 120 00:06:31,820 --> 00:06:34,500 the ideas that they would share and talk about from an early age. 121 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:35,860 So it just became normal. 122 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:40,300 It became natural for me to have conversations with 123 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:44,180 people that he was working with all the time, different educators. And, 124 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,940 and he never had rules, but he was always suggestions as far as, uh, 125 00:06:48,940 --> 00:06:51,740 thinking about more than just a one word response. So when somebody, 126 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,380 cuz we would spend a lot of time with adults, 127 00:06:53,670 --> 00:06:56,660 there were some kids around at some of the events, but since we were traveling, 128 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,540 uh, together, we were always at the events. 129 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:03,820 So he was suggesting that if anyone asks you a question, you know, 130 00:07:03,820 --> 00:07:07,100 try to come up with something more than a one word response . 131 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:10,500 So that was always fun engagement. Yeah, exactly. That was always fun. God. 132 00:07:10,580 --> 00:07:11,280 Forbid. 133 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,113 Yes. 134 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:13,580 Sorry about the distraction. 135 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,460 My next door neighbor is the facility and they can get pretty loud. 136 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,860 So apologies to anyone listening and apologies to you if it's a bit distracting. 137 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,460 Uh, hang in there is all I'm saying. Thank you. What 138 00:07:27,970 --> 00:07:30,860 made you decide to go into fencing? 139 00:07:31,650 --> 00:07:35,180 Traditional sports? I was always involved in traditional sports and I, 140 00:07:35,180 --> 00:07:38,420 and I could play them, uh, for sure. And I was always active and, 141 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,220 but there was something about them that just didn't call me a hundred percent. 142 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,940 And somehow, uh, I advertisement, uh, and this is before internet, 143 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,260 but I got ahold of something. 144 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:52,900 I don't know if I saw a book and it was about fencing. 145 00:07:53,140 --> 00:07:54,300 A flyer next to the water hose. 146 00:07:54,580 --> 00:07:55,980 A flyer next to the water hose. Yeah. 147 00:07:55,980 --> 00:08:00,700 There was someone that was trying to drum up some business and I, 148 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,380 um, was able to call the organization, 149 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,500 or I possibly even sent a letter, uh, and, uh, 150 00:08:08,500 --> 00:08:11,620 to get some more information about fencing in my area. 151 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,580 And I got this huge dot matrix people can look that up. 152 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,300 Dot matrix printed report of all the different clubs in California. 153 00:08:21,350 --> 00:08:23,260 There happened to be one that was, uh, uh, 154 00:08:23,430 --> 00:08:26,380 relocating just probably like 20 minutes from my house in Culver City. 155 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,580 So it was convenient. So I went and gave it a try and it just, 156 00:08:29,930 --> 00:08:33,740 initially it stuck and then I wanted to take a break for a little bit, 157 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,020 and then I had signed up for a summer camp. 158 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:40,220 I didn't want to go to the summer camp, but my mother said, we signed up for it. 159 00:08:40,220 --> 00:08:40,900 You signed up for it, 160 00:08:40,900 --> 00:08:43,980 let's see you through and if you wanted to stop after that, you can. 161 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:46,540 And then that was just great. What. 162 00:08:46,540 --> 00:08:47,860 Was it about fencing you liked? 163 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,020 The connection, the mind body, the thinking really quickly, the immediacy of it. 164 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,180 People refer to it a lot as physical chess. And uh, 165 00:08:57,180 --> 00:08:59,220 it's demanding physically as well, 166 00:08:59,220 --> 00:09:01,980 especially when you're training regularly and depending on the level that you, 167 00:09:02,610 --> 00:09:05,900 that you want to, uh, fence at and what, what, what the goals are. 168 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,580 But it was just the physical and mental aspect of it all at the same time. And. 169 00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:12,500 The sweat box of a suit that you're in during the summer. 170 00:09:12,740 --> 00:09:15,340 . And that's something that you, you, you definitely get used to. 171 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,780 And you had aspirations to go into the Olympics. 172 00:09:19,260 --> 00:09:21,980 I did all my teammates and I that we, we all started, uh, 173 00:09:21,980 --> 00:09:24,820 at the same time and we formed kind of a, 174 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:28,980 a group of four that was really a supportive of each other and we just naturally 175 00:09:28,980 --> 00:09:32,260 pushed each other all in a positive way. We didn't realize it at the time, 176 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,060 but when we look back, it was completely positive and supportive of, 177 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,180 of each other. And, uh, 178 00:09:38,180 --> 00:09:41,900 we all got recruited to college. We all went to college. 179 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:46,780 We had particular plans as far as when we were gonna be on one Olympic teams and 180 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:52,220 one of our buddies ended up making a couple Olympic teams. And, 181 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,500 um, and then we all kind of went off on our own as far as training. 182 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,740 And my focus changed when I got to college, which I obviously, 183 00:10:02,740 --> 00:10:05,460 there's a lot of stuff that's happening in college and I think I closed myself 184 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,860 off to, to certain, certain possibilities. But when, but what do you mean? Well, 185 00:10:09,860 --> 00:10:12,660 just, uh, being able to experience the college experience and the, 186 00:10:12,660 --> 00:10:15,380 the learning aspect of it and then the, uh, 187 00:10:15,380 --> 00:10:18,540 what I went there for as far as being recruited and the training that goes along 188 00:10:18,540 --> 00:10:20,700 with that, and just having a healthy balance. 189 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,500 And I think a lot of my choices back in the time were kind of an all or nothing. 190 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:31,020 So if, if I was being confronted with maybe my training or what was next for me, 191 00:10:31,020 --> 00:10:35,860 it was easier to put my sight on something else and focus on that. 192 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,220 And then step away from, from the training. 193 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:40,300 Do you mean like as, 194 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:45,140 as you got anxious over an expectation you toggled to something else? Yes. 195 00:10:45,570 --> 00:10:46,403 Okay. Yes. 196 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:48,420 Had you always been like that even as a kid? 197 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,420 Uh, yes. Yeah. It started, uh, 198 00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:54,940 probably there was a couple of instances where I, 199 00:10:55,100 --> 00:10:59,980 I felt like I was being challenged in front of a group and, uh, 200 00:10:59,980 --> 00:11:03,820 instead of possibly asking for help or say, Hey, you know, I'm, 201 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:05,860 I'm not sure what to do next. Uh, 202 00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:07,820 I just really internalized it and then shut down. 203 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,420 And there was some behavior from, uh, teachers at that time that, 204 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,100 uh, allowed me to reinforce that on myself. 205 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:18,100 So meaning bad teachers. 206 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,420 Uh, teachers that just had a certain way, certain way of doing things. Mm-hmm. 207 00:11:21,460 --> 00:11:23,540 . And, uh, there was, um, 208 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,100 no issues with putting somebody in front of the class and talking about grades 209 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,740 or expectations that the teacher thought about the, uh, the individual. 210 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,140 So that was kind of interesting. And I, I, I just, uh, 211 00:11:35,140 --> 00:11:36,620 turned away from that really quickly. I'm like, yeah, 212 00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:37,780 I'm not gonna subject myself to that. 213 00:11:37,890 --> 00:11:41,300 Humiliation tactic. Yes. That makes sense. Yeah. 214 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,660 How were you feeling about drifting away from the sport that you were sent to 215 00:11:46,660 --> 00:11:49,380 school to do that? That must have been a heavy expectation. 216 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:54,380 Yes. And there was a lot of, lot of regret. There's a lot of regret. And I, 217 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:57,620 I tried to put a happy spin on it, but I, I could only do that so much. 218 00:11:57,680 --> 00:11:59,460 And so I pulled back even more. 219 00:11:59,670 --> 00:12:02,060 Which was the regret part. The walking away or the. 220 00:12:02,060 --> 00:12:05,140 The walking away? Mm-hmm. Yeah. One of my teammates very, 221 00:12:05,140 --> 00:12:06,900 very gently just let me know. He, 222 00:12:06,900 --> 00:12:10,260 after people were talking to try to get me to stay, 223 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:12,980 cuz I was competing regularly for two years. 224 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:17,940 And then I walked away from the team and one of my, 225 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,740 uh, one of my coaches was not happy about it and, 226 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,300 but was still trying to be positive. But he kept saying, 227 00:12:25,450 --> 00:12:28,140 because I quit whenever we'd interact, you know, 228 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,340 and the quit thing came up and I was really resistant to that. And ah, 229 00:12:32,740 --> 00:12:36,700 I didn't quit. I had to do other things, but in, uh, all reality I did. I, 230 00:12:36,860 --> 00:12:40,740 I couldn't, uh, I was just, it was just too confronting the expectation. 231 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:41,980 And then where I felt 232 00:12:43,500 --> 00:12:46,660 I was as far as producing and instead of just sitting down and having a 233 00:12:46,660 --> 00:12:49,780 conversation around it and using the network of community that was available to 234 00:12:49,780 --> 00:12:53,820 me, I, uh, I just walked away. And it seemed like it was easier, but it, it, 235 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,300 it built up a lot of resentment and, 236 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,900 and regret all at the same time for years. 237 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,900 Did you grow up in a family that did not talk about their feelings or did not 238 00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:08,780 know, because sometimes as educators, I'm gonna use my parents as examples. 239 00:13:08,780 --> 00:13:10,580 They're both academia people, 240 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,500 so they are more in their head than in their bodies. 241 00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:19,540 When it comes to fostering is, I suppose a good word, 242 00:13:20,090 --> 00:13:23,780 emotional response from kids . 243 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,020 Did you experience that in your house? 244 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,060 Uh, yes, I did. And the conversation would start and then it would, 245 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,860 it wouldn't go anywhere beyond that. So it was kind of like an invitation to, 246 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:37,900 uh, have a conversation, 247 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:43,220 but then it required either my parents or myself stepping through 248 00:13:43,220 --> 00:13:47,460 that, that door taking, accepting the invitation either way and saying, Hey, I, 249 00:13:48,660 --> 00:13:52,580 I wanna talk about this more. Mm-hmm. . Uh, and, uh, 250 00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:56,140 there's times when it did happen, especially when I was, was getting older, uh, 251 00:13:56,140 --> 00:13:59,820 and there's times when I realized that it, it didn't seem like it was an option. 252 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:02,620 Did you lose your scholarship at college? 253 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,260 At that time? There was very, very few scholarships. Uh, I know at, 254 00:14:07,260 --> 00:14:11,140 at my school they had, uh, one and a half scholarships at the time. 255 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,460 Now it's completely different. 256 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:16,060 So they would take that and spread it around to people that, 257 00:14:16,210 --> 00:14:19,780 that really needed it at the, uh, at the time. 258 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:25,060 So there wasn't a scholarship attached to my participation. Okay. 259 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,060 But then there was a lot of, a lot of disappointment, a lot of upset, 260 00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:31,460 a lot of uncertainty and concern as well. 261 00:14:31,460 --> 00:14:35,620 Some people were concerned with me being gung-ho and 262 00:14:37,340 --> 00:14:39,700 participating. And, and also the level that I was fencing on the, 263 00:14:39,740 --> 00:14:43,660 on the varsity team. And then that just all went away and it went away. 264 00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:45,220 When I think about it, it went away really quickly. 265 00:14:46,820 --> 00:14:49,380 I think it was just one summer or something came up for me. 266 00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:55,660 I was getting ready to go overseas and train for six months, 267 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:00,060 and I just couldn't, the, the po the, it just seemed too big. 268 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:01,300 It seemed too big. 269 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:04,180 And all the things that I would possibly have to work through, 270 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,260 I'm sure going over by myself and the fencing community is just a huge 271 00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:12,100 community. And I would've been, uh, completely supported. And again, 272 00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:13,460 coming back to, uh, 273 00:15:13,460 --> 00:15:15,580 just reaching out and talking to somebody about it and saying, Hey. 274 00:15:15,580 --> 00:15:15,940 Hindsight. 275 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:18,940 Right. 20 hindsight. Yeah. Hindsight, I'm feeling anxious about this. 276 00:15:18,980 --> 00:15:21,380 I need some, some coaching. I need some help around it. So I just, 277 00:15:21,420 --> 00:15:23,780 I just shut it down. Cause that's always the best thing to do. Right. 278 00:15:23,930 --> 00:15:28,780 Just shut it down. Just walk away. Wasn't meant to be . Uh, 279 00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:30,420 but it was, yeah, it was tough. It was tough. 280 00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:32,060 So my teammates didn't know how to talk to me. 281 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,820 How did you carry that through the rest of your college days? Did you, 282 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:36,900 did you graduate from college? 283 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,700 Uh, I, no, I did not graduate. I stayed there for two more years and I, um, 284 00:15:42,330 --> 00:15:46,140 came, I probably was like maybe a semester away. Wow. 285 00:15:46,140 --> 00:15:50,340 What made you quit from? Uh, just little frustration. Just frustration. 286 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:52,660 I'm sure there was a lot of the, the regret and the, 287 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,500 the resentment that was building up and just not feeling satisfied with 288 00:15:58,080 --> 00:15:59,500 how I was participating in school. 289 00:16:00,820 --> 00:16:05,460 I took a introduction to theater class my freshman year 290 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:07,540 and just loved it. Just loved it. 291 00:16:07,540 --> 00:16:09,980 And there was just that self-expression and just everything about it. 292 00:16:09,980 --> 00:16:13,380 And I certainly could have participated in the theater department, 293 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,980 not being a theater major, but I was all or nothing. 294 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,820 I'm gonna be a theater major. And there was parts of it that I really, 295 00:16:19,820 --> 00:16:22,060 really enjoyed. And there's other parts I was like, why, 296 00:16:22,060 --> 00:16:26,260 why am I even doing this? And I almost felt obligated. And uh, 297 00:16:26,260 --> 00:16:27,900 then when I start to go down that road, 298 00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:32,020 then it's figuring out how to just get out, which I started to do with the, 299 00:16:32,050 --> 00:16:34,820 with the fencing. So the pattern, pattern continued mm-hmm. . 300 00:16:34,820 --> 00:16:38,060 So I just didn't, I just didn't continue the, to fulfill the, 301 00:16:38,090 --> 00:16:39,660 even some of the basic requirements. 302 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,540 Did your parents have anything to say about that? 303 00:16:42,370 --> 00:16:47,340 They did through listening, but there wasn't, uh, any type of, uh, 304 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,620 I'm putting this in quotes, intervention, no plan. 305 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:50,860 Was put in place or any. 306 00:16:51,050 --> 00:16:53,060 Help plan, uh, was, was really put in place. 307 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,340 And I think they were going off of what I was saying. 308 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,020 In retrospect are are you irritated by that? 309 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:00,700 Or are you glad that they didn't push you? 310 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,100 That's, uh, I think there's parts that there, there, 311 00:17:04,100 --> 00:17:07,420 there's a part of me that's like, you know what, why couldn't you fight for me? 312 00:17:07,420 --> 00:17:10,860 Type of a thing, response. But I, I don't think that's the prevailing response. 313 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,980 Uh, I think, uh, just a lot of, 314 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,300 lot of the upbringing that I experienced was in embracing the experience 315 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,060 and going back to the conversations, having certain conversations, 316 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,060 and especially being, being educators, but just parents in general. 317 00:17:26,020 --> 00:17:26,980 I remember my, my, 318 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,020 my dad talking to me specifically one time about just doing the best that he 319 00:17:30,020 --> 00:17:33,060 could, as if it was a bad thing when we were talking, 320 00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:35,900 this was years ago when we were talking about different things about. 321 00:17:35,900 --> 00:17:36,980 He himself doing Yeah. 322 00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:41,140 Yeah. Just doing, doing the best that, that he could as a parent, uh, 323 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,300 as if he was making judgements about that. And that's, that's all we can do. 324 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:48,060 And I think in the moment they were, uh, uncertain how to, 325 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:49,980 how to progress with the conversation. 326 00:17:49,980 --> 00:17:53,620 Cause I didn't want to ostracize me in any way, 327 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,980 but then still give me an opportunity to really think about 328 00:17:59,290 --> 00:18:02,700 what I wanna do in the moment, but also looking the future as well. 329 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,700 And I completely could have changed my major. I could have stayed. 330 00:18:06,210 --> 00:18:09,100 I've had a lot of time to think about , how I would've done it. 331 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,540 Uh, do you ever think about going back and finishing? 332 00:18:11,660 --> 00:18:14,020 I, I do. Yeah, I do. And what would that look like? And, 333 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:17,740 and applying whatever credits I can, but also just starting over, 334 00:18:17,810 --> 00:18:20,900 just finding something that just caused to me. And, 335 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,980 and if I wanna go back to school and continue my education, I certainly can. 336 00:18:24,670 --> 00:18:28,140 Which wasn't accessible to me years ago. I just, it was, 337 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:29,740 it was just tear too terrifying. 338 00:18:30,490 --> 00:18:31,900 What happened when you left college? 339 00:18:33,420 --> 00:18:37,780 I, I followed my heart, Susan. I followed my heart. I, there was a, 340 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,580 my girlfriend at the time was living in New Jersey, 341 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,980 so that became my next focus point. So like, 342 00:18:42,980 --> 00:18:46,100 it was an opportunity for me to leave school legitimately, you know, 343 00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:51,060 I'm in love. So I, I went to New Jersey and hung out for probably eight, 344 00:18:51,060 --> 00:18:53,900 nine months. Then I With your girlfriend? Yeah. I wasn't, 345 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:56,060 we weren't living together. She was still living at home. 346 00:18:56,060 --> 00:18:59,740 And I had a little apartment and I found a coaching job, 347 00:19:00,580 --> 00:19:04,060 a fencing coaching job at a high school, which was actually, uh, just a really, 348 00:19:04,060 --> 00:19:06,220 a lot of fun. Just the patterns, the patterns that, 349 00:19:06,250 --> 00:19:08,260 that I've talked about just came into play. And I'm like, 350 00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:10,860 I'll go home now and then I'll start training again. 351 00:19:10,860 --> 00:19:12,580 I was gonna start training again. And you. 352 00:19:12,580 --> 00:19:13,413 Broke up with the girl? 353 00:19:13,790 --> 00:19:17,420 Woman? Uh, I did not, no. Just, uh, oh. Just decided to go back home. 354 00:19:17,420 --> 00:19:18,660 And we were gonna long. 355 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:19,640 Distance it. 356 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,180 To continue the long distance. Did. 357 00:19:21,180 --> 00:19:24,980 You notice in any of the kids that you were training that they were, 358 00:19:25,570 --> 00:19:28,300 that any of them were on the path that you were on where they, 359 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:29,900 the glimmer was starting to fade, 360 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,140 but they maybe had talent but didn't know where to put everything, 361 00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:34,860 which boxes to put that all in? 362 00:19:35,340 --> 00:19:40,100 I don't think I was from a, from a specific, just, 363 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,860 uh, teaching the sport and, and these were, uh, high school kids. 364 00:19:44,380 --> 00:19:48,940 I don't think I was necessarily listening that way. Mm-hmm. , uh, 365 00:19:48,940 --> 00:19:51,420 back then, the, specifically around the sport, 366 00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:54,380 everyone was being engaged and having a, having a good time. 367 00:19:54,380 --> 00:19:56,980 But as I look back now, uh, there's a lot of, 368 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,780 lot of experiences that people are getting when they're 10th grade, 11th grade, 369 00:20:00,780 --> 00:20:01,980 12th grade, and, you know, 370 00:20:01,980 --> 00:20:05,980 you have your foundation activities that provide community and teamwork and all 371 00:20:05,980 --> 00:20:09,980 that. And then, then there's everything that happens outside of that. 372 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,500 And for me, the focus was just, 373 00:20:11,530 --> 00:20:14,900 just being responsible for the athletic part of it, the sport part of it. 374 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,780 So I had my time there and then I, and then I would move on. 375 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,660 And you came back to California? Came. 376 00:20:21,660 --> 00:20:25,940 Back to California. I just, I inched back into my house, 377 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,860 my driveway with maybe like fumes, uh, in the, in the car. 378 00:20:29,860 --> 00:20:31,940 It was a quick trip across the country. . 379 00:20:32,570 --> 00:20:35,380 When you said to your then girlfriend, 380 00:20:36,020 --> 00:20:37,660 I think I'm gonna make this change, 381 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:42,100 was there something brewing in you or was it simply, there's a job, 382 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:43,460 I'm gonna go take it? 383 00:20:44,090 --> 00:20:49,060 Because it seems that up until that point you were, 384 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,940 you reacted, you weren't really action, you were reaction. 385 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:54,820 Was that the case there? 386 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,540 Yes. And there was no job that I was moving. I was just moving back home. 387 00:20:58,900 --> 00:20:59,380 I was just. 388 00:20:59,380 --> 00:20:59,660 What, what. 389 00:20:59,660 --> 00:21:01,420 Caused that? I, I just, the, i, 390 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,180 the same things I was feeling when I was fencing, but also in school. 391 00:21:05,260 --> 00:21:09,220 It's just the, the lack of, um, there was nothing that was motivating me, 392 00:21:09,220 --> 00:21:10,260 motivating me there. 393 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:15,180 And it was still just kind of the whole discovering who I am, where my focus is. 394 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:15,740 Um, and. 395 00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:16,460 How old were you at that. 396 00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:17,380 Point? Uh, let's see. 397 00:21:17,460 --> 00:21:22,340 I was 22 years after I went to Santa Monica City 398 00:21:22,340 --> 00:21:24,620 College for two years, basically a year and a half. 399 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,620 And then once I got into college, once I, uh, basically transferred, 400 00:21:28,860 --> 00:21:30,460 actually I didn't transfer cause I went in as a freshman. 401 00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:32,140 Wait, you came back and went to school again? 402 00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:35,420 No, no. This is, oh, beforehand? Yeah, beforehand. Yeah. So I was two years, 403 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,060 two years older than freshman. Uh, 404 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,580 so then I think I was 22, 23, 24. 405 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,540 And did you go back to your parents' place? 406 00:21:44,540 --> 00:21:47,980 Yeah, I went back, got a couch, uh, 407 00:21:48,110 --> 00:21:50,780 slept on the couch for a little bit and then ended up moving out. 408 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,020 But e everything at that point, like didn't, 409 00:21:53,020 --> 00:21:55,700 didn't feel like I was being motivated or I wasn't motivated myself. 410 00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:59,220 And there was, didn't seem like there was any prospects. And then the, the, 411 00:21:59,220 --> 00:22:03,540 the safety of home, the idea of home came into the brain. 412 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,260 And so it, there was some relief attached to it. 413 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,740 So of course I latched right onto that, and I'm going home. 414 00:22:09,460 --> 00:22:14,030 I just packed my stuff up, packed my car up and drove all, drove across country. 415 00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:17,590 But there wasn't any kind of breakup or anything like that. You're just, 416 00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:19,150 this is what I'm gonna, yes. 417 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,670 We're just gonna continue. We had talked about. 418 00:22:21,670 --> 00:22:22,503 How did she take that? 419 00:22:22,850 --> 00:22:27,070 I'm trying to think about the, the conversation and how it went. 420 00:22:27,070 --> 00:22:30,590 And I don't know if I can actually remember how, 421 00:22:30,650 --> 00:22:35,510 how the conversation went and, uh, if it's something that I, I'm sure I didn't, 422 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:37,550 since I decided I was gonna go, 423 00:22:37,550 --> 00:22:41,830 I'm just gonna go and then we'll figure everything out and probably not. Uh, 424 00:22:41,830 --> 00:22:46,350 well, of course not taking responsibility for having a more correct conversation 425 00:22:47,290 --> 00:22:48,830 at the time. Mm, mm-hmm. . 426 00:22:49,050 --> 00:22:52,860 And then this is what we're gonna work on. This is what we're gonna do. If it's, 427 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,820 if we're gonna continue the relationship, if we still want to, 428 00:22:55,820 --> 00:22:58,940 if it's something we both wanna work on, and then make the drive. 429 00:22:59,020 --> 00:23:02,060 I think it was just, I gotta get outta town, I'm outta here. 430 00:23:02,180 --> 00:23:04,860 I gotta get outta town. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, uh. 431 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,420 How long until you broke up after that? 432 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,540 Uh, let's see, because she, she did come out to visit me, 433 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:16,620 uh, so probably maybe four to six months. 434 00:23:17,260 --> 00:23:20,340 Probably four to six months. Mm-hmm. . And I think it was also a, 435 00:23:20,580 --> 00:23:23,060 a, a passive way of. 436 00:23:24,210 --> 00:23:24,900 Getting outta. 437 00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:27,340 Something. Getting outta something, yeah. And just letting it run its course. 438 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,820 Mm-hmm. . So thanks, thanks for bringing that up, Susan. 439 00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:34,340 You're welcome. . No, it's good. That's good. 440 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,860 You're back in California and you are on mom and dad's 441 00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:43,260 couch and you're trying to figure out what's next and then you decide you're 442 00:23:43,260 --> 00:23:44,420 gonna coach again? 443 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,220 Uh, no, I was gonna train, I was gonna start training again. Oh, okay. 444 00:23:48,220 --> 00:23:51,100 And I just basically didn't know what I wanted to do. I didn't know where, 445 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:56,100 and so fencing had always been, um, uh, part of my life at that point. 446 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,860 So I just kind of, it was my safety net mechanism. And I, I hung it on, 447 00:24:01,810 --> 00:24:04,580 I'll start training again. And then I ended up getting a, uh, 448 00:24:04,700 --> 00:24:07,700 a job just working in the equipment store that they had, the fencing center. 449 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,700 So I was around my community and I was still a bit with train and be of service 450 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,740 at, with, at the, uh, equipment store. 451 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,340 And then I think I got a job soon after that at Staples. 452 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,940 And I was working at Staples for a little while, 453 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,620 but still just kind of doing a variety of things, 454 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:27,260 not really committing to one thing. And that was it. That was it for, for, 455 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:29,580 for a little while. And I think, 456 00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:32,100 I think truly just from a passion point of view, I, 457 00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:35,900 I knew that I didn't really want to, the fencing is one thing, but, 458 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,700 and I could certainly continue to defense, participate as much as I want to and, 459 00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:42,260 and get what I get out of it. But as far as setting, 460 00:24:42,260 --> 00:24:45,620 setting myself up by saying, I'm gonna start training for the Olympics. 461 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,540 I'm gonna start training and go to Nashville competitions. And I did a couple, 462 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,740 and then I just realized the, uh, just the focus, the motivation wasn't there. 463 00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:56,140 The passion wasn't there. And I enjoyed it, but it wasn't, uh, 464 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,060 it wasn't what I was really looking for at the moment. 465 00:24:59,090 --> 00:25:00,380 It's not what I wanted to focus on. 466 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,140 Do you think you set yourself up for that. 467 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,020 In a way? Oh, certainly. Yeah. Certainly. Yeah. But, and I, and that's, 468 00:25:05,020 --> 00:25:09,220 you know, part of that, that grandiose behavior as far as, yeah, I'm gonna, 469 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,820 I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna make the Olympic team, I'm gonna, 470 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,980 and I was certainly on an, an Olympic path at some point, 471 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,300 or actually a high national level path at some point. Uh, 472 00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:19,580 and then veered away from that, 473 00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:24,060 but then pulled that out of the hat every once in a while to set that, set, 474 00:25:24,060 --> 00:25:24,940 that bar really high. 475 00:25:26,090 --> 00:25:30,100 Hearing all of this, it's very interesting, knowing what I know about you, 476 00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:32,380 which we will unfold and unfurl as we go. 477 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,060 Do you think that that was an indicator of addictive personality? 478 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:43,700 Uh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, and part of, yeah, it is just kind of the, 479 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:45,900 the all or nothing. Uh, and it almost takes, 480 00:25:45,950 --> 00:25:48,860 takes me outta the equation as far as not having to, 481 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,700 to think about something or, or just, um, uh, participate openly. 482 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,700 And if it's something that I enjoy doing or if it's a person that I enjoy 483 00:25:57,860 --> 00:26:02,020 spending time with. But it's the, the all or nothing aspect of it. And yeah. 484 00:26:02,020 --> 00:26:04,540 You, you offered up the, the addictive personality part of it, 485 00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:07,780 that that comes in, that comes into play for sure. Yeah. 486 00:26:07,930 --> 00:26:08,763 What happens next? 487 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:13,580 My grandmother, my grandfather passed away and I moved in, see this, 488 00:26:13,580 --> 00:26:16,900 we're back in 94, and I, um, 489 00:26:17,150 --> 00:26:18,820 ended up sharing an apartment with, uh, 490 00:26:18,820 --> 00:26:21,900 the manager of the fencing center for a couple of months. But before that, 491 00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:24,700 I moved in with my grandmother, cuz she was living in, 492 00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:29,980 in her house and Silver Lake, uh, by herself. And, and there was, uh, 493 00:26:29,980 --> 00:26:30,940 plenty of, plenty of room. 494 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,460 And so I wanted to get outta my parents' house just because I needed to give 495 00:26:35,460 --> 00:26:38,420 them their space. And the couch was only, only available for so long. 496 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,580 But also my grandmother loved the, the company and, 497 00:26:42,580 --> 00:26:44,060 and I really enjoyed spending time with her. 498 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,700 And so I was able to help her out. 499 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:52,700 And then I was able to find a little bit of a balance on my own 500 00:26:53,010 --> 00:26:53,500 with, uh, 501 00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:58,500 moving into an apartment with my friend that was running the fencing 502 00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:02,820 center at the time. And that lasted probably about eight months. 503 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:04,700 And then you meet Amy. 504 00:27:04,890 --> 00:27:06,380 Then I meet Amy, yeah. It's. 505 00:27:06,380 --> 00:27:08,420 Just, and Amy was a coach? Or was she a. 506 00:27:08,420 --> 00:27:09,340 Student? She was, uh, 507 00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:13,900 an adult fencer and she had started at another club and then came over to try 508 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,180 the club I was at, which was the largest club in California. 509 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,820 And everyone in southern California at that time ended up at that club at some 510 00:27:19,820 --> 00:27:23,020 point. And it's just one of those things, you know, 511 00:27:23,700 --> 00:27:26,340 I wanna say it was those eyes locked in across a crowded room, 512 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,740 but I think it was me. And then she was involved with somebody at the time, 513 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:31,300 but the conversation just started. 514 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:33,620 And she's older than you at this point? She's older. Oh, 515 00:27:33,620 --> 00:27:34,453 she's always older than you? 516 00:27:34,510 --> 00:27:36,220 Older. Yeah, she's older. Yeah. Yeah. . 517 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:37,390 By how many years? 518 00:27:37,390 --> 00:27:38,260 Seven years. Seven. 519 00:27:38,260 --> 00:27:38,910 Years older. 520 00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:39,743 Seven years. Yeah. 521 00:27:39,940 --> 00:27:44,260 Interesting. Do you think part of you was drawn to the older energy of, oh, 522 00:27:44,260 --> 00:27:47,180 this is somebody that can tell me how to be? 523 00:27:47,490 --> 00:27:52,180 Yeah. Yeah. There's just some safety in that, just for my, as far as, 524 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,820 as far as society says, which I don't subscribe to, 525 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,580 but just as a starting point, the, uh, 526 00:27:56,740 --> 00:28:01,140 I was a late bloomer and I know I bloomed. When I bloomed, I'm still blooming. 527 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,780 So there was a, there was a part of the, the safety of it. Someone that, 528 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:05,180 you know, 529 00:28:05,180 --> 00:28:09,420 that's can kind of work me through the process and take care of me and be safe. 530 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,820 So yeah. Then there's just, just the energy. Just the energy. Sure. I mean, who, 531 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,340 you know, how, how do we, how do we. 532 00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:15,180 Decide you can't quantify it. 533 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:16,140 How do we decide? Yeah. 534 00:28:16,140 --> 00:28:17,220 Yeah. It just is what it is. 535 00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:18,620 There's a lot of people that would come through, 536 00:28:18,730 --> 00:28:22,740 come through the fencing center and, but for whatever reason, hey, yeah. Who, 537 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:23,620 who is that over there? 538 00:28:24,340 --> 00:28:29,180 I divide my time and then she let me know when she was finished with that 539 00:28:29,180 --> 00:28:30,980 relationship. It was at some tournament. 540 00:28:31,650 --> 00:28:33,900 Were you developing a friendship all along? Yeah. 541 00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:36,180 Especially for fencing. I know other sports are the same, 542 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,620 but the way that we train, it's, it's, it's indoors. Uh, 543 00:28:39,620 --> 00:28:42,660 for the most part it's after work as far as the adults are concerned. 544 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,420 And people will go there. Either they have dinner before, 545 00:28:46,420 --> 00:28:48,980 they'll go over there right from the work, and people are training and, 546 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:53,460 and working out together and in an intense environment for a couple hours a 547 00:28:53,460 --> 00:28:55,500 night. And sometimes three, four nights a week, 548 00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:57,300 depending on how they wanna participate. So. 549 00:28:57,300 --> 00:28:59,100 You hear that singles sounds like, uh, 550 00:28:59,100 --> 00:29:00,900 fencing might be the place to meet a person. 551 00:29:01,260 --> 00:29:03,740 , there's a lot, a lot of bonding. A lot of bonding. 552 00:29:03,740 --> 00:29:06,940 And we'd go out and eat dinner afterwards and just hang out. And again, uh, 553 00:29:06,940 --> 00:29:08,860 community is a big theme for me these days. 554 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:10,940 And it was just a wonderful community. 555 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:15,060 And then people would go to their other lives and, and then, uh, 556 00:29:15,060 --> 00:29:18,860 meet three or four times a week to poke each other. 557 00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:23,700 just to have a good time in a physical environment, which is great. 558 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,940 And you and Amy started dating and immediately got 559 00:29:28,940 --> 00:29:29,773 serious? 560 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,220 Yes. Yeah. Our first date we went to Four Weddings and Funeral. 561 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,580 The movie? The movie, yes. We didn't actually go to Four Weddings and. 562 00:29:37,580 --> 00:29:38,580 Funeral. I mean, it's worth asking. 563 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,940 It was, well, that would be a good way. It was, it would be a good, 564 00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:44,460 a good first day. and I, I remember going to that and we, uh, 565 00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:48,420 I think then we, uh, were not together for a week. 566 00:29:49,490 --> 00:29:51,540 We'd see each other at the fencing center, but after the first day, 567 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,420 but then after that, it was basically we were inseparable. 568 00:29:54,450 --> 00:29:56,340 Game on. Yeah. From the beginning. 569 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,620 Did you think this is the person I'm gonna marry? 570 00:30:00,130 --> 00:30:04,700 Well, my, uh, my all in personality and I've had years to think about it. I was, 571 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,740 uh, I I, there was no, and there was a lot of assuming, uh, when I, 572 00:30:09,740 --> 00:30:14,060 when I think about it now, um, but I was just all in right from the beginning. 573 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,660 And so whatever, whatever course that took. And I think there, 574 00:30:17,660 --> 00:30:19,500 there's a traditional approach as far as 575 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,530 having a certain amount of time and then getting married and then, 576 00:30:26,230 --> 00:30:29,330 you know, the family and everything that goes along with that. And I think, uh, 577 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,770 just the, there's a, I guess a certain instinct, something, 578 00:30:32,770 --> 00:30:34,930 it seemed like I didn't have to think about this is the way you do things. 579 00:30:35,030 --> 00:30:39,090 So there's almost on, I, I don't want it to come across incorrectly, 580 00:30:39,090 --> 00:30:43,170 but it almost was like an obligation starting to. 581 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,130 Expectation at least. 582 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,250 Yeah. And oh, that's better. An expectation as far as Yeah. 583 00:30:48,250 --> 00:30:50,170 The obligation comes later, . Yeah. The, uh, 584 00:30:50,170 --> 00:30:52,890 the expectation as far as this is the way that it goes. Mm-hmm. . 585 00:30:53,710 --> 00:30:56,010 And there's some naive qualities to that as well, too. 586 00:30:56,430 --> 00:30:58,690 Was this the first time you'd felt truly in love? 587 00:30:59,550 --> 00:31:02,130 No, I, there was two college girlfriends, 588 00:31:02,130 --> 00:31:03,650 both of 'em lasting about a year and a half. 589 00:31:04,030 --> 00:31:06,730 You were a virgin when you got with Amy. Yes. Yeah. Yes. 590 00:31:06,790 --> 00:31:09,450 So that's interesting to me. If you're willing to talk about it. Yeah. 591 00:31:09,540 --> 00:31:11,570 Especially because I think there's, we. 592 00:31:11,570 --> 00:31:14,090 Can always edit it out if I, uh, choose to later. Yeah. You. 593 00:31:14,090 --> 00:31:16,970 Panic that there's a, an assumption. 594 00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:19,530 Let's say gender males are, 595 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,890 have a proclivity to have sex as soon as humanly possible whenever possible, 596 00:31:25,140 --> 00:31:25,630 right. 597 00:31:25,630 --> 00:31:28,930 But here you say you were in two long-term relationships and you didn't have 598 00:31:28,930 --> 00:31:30,650 sex. Why do you think that is? 599 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,690 There's some insecurity, uh, around that as well. There was some excitement too, 600 00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:37,570 thinking about that. I had some, we had my college girlfriends and I, 601 00:31:37,570 --> 00:31:39,890 we both had conversations around that. And, and there was 602 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,490 just a conscious choice to, uh, to wait. 603 00:31:44,350 --> 00:31:45,490 Uh, not religious? Not. 604 00:31:45,550 --> 00:31:47,890 Not religious, no. A little bit, a little bit on one, but, 605 00:31:48,070 --> 00:31:50,290 but for the most part, just based on the conversations, not, 606 00:31:50,750 --> 00:31:54,010 but part of it was just a comfort level, just to, not to add that, 607 00:31:54,030 --> 00:31:56,890 cuz we were just having such a good time together. Uh, 608 00:31:56,890 --> 00:32:01,490 and there's a lot of things you can do without having sex and, uh, cribbage. 609 00:32:01,490 --> 00:32:02,850 You can do cribbage. Cribbage. 610 00:32:02,870 --> 00:32:07,410 Yes. And, you know. Yes. No, I know. I love we know. Yeah. If you know, 611 00:32:07,410 --> 00:32:12,370 you know, and, uh, now you're making me blush. 612 00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:13,370 I'm sorry. No. 613 00:32:13,370 --> 00:32:15,410 It's good. And I, I like the feeling, I. 614 00:32:15,410 --> 00:32:17,490 Love that we can speak in a dirty joke in there. 615 00:32:17,770 --> 00:32:22,490 . So it was one more thing to add to the, the mix, the responsibility, 616 00:32:22,990 --> 00:32:26,050 uh, and everything that goes along with that. And I, it was just safer. 617 00:32:26,110 --> 00:32:27,090 It was just, it was just. 618 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:28,840 Emotionally. 619 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,850 Emotionally and also probably, um, yeah, just, just emotionally. Yes. 620 00:32:32,850 --> 00:32:35,410 And as far as the male proclivity, the, the college age, 621 00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:38,330 there was a lot of pressure, a lot of conversation. And I, 622 00:32:38,450 --> 00:32:40,860 I became pretty good about steering conversations away. 623 00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,060 People always wanted to know what my situation was. 624 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,660 And they also steered the conversation, you know, in certain ways. 625 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,180 But there was an idea that, you know, 626 00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:54,020 the college males have to be a certain way, especially back in the, 627 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,780 uh, at that time. Sure. Did you. 628 00:32:57,210 --> 00:33:01,940 Feel any pressure? I I Did you, did people come and he like, oh, 629 00:33:01,940 --> 00:33:04,660 are you gay or something? Why are you not sleeping with your girlfriends? 630 00:33:04,660 --> 00:33:07,580 Or did you have any of that kind of, I didn't get any of that pressure. 631 00:33:07,580 --> 00:33:10,060 I feel like that era there was a lot of like, what are you gay? Or, 632 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,540 as if that was some sort of a bad thing. But I. 633 00:33:12,620 --> 00:33:15,860 I never, I never, never got any pressure like that. Oh, okay. Yeah, no, 634 00:33:15,860 --> 00:33:18,220 it was great. Never got any pressure. I mean, I didn't offer up. 635 00:33:18,810 --> 00:33:19,480 Sure. 636 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,180 Uh, lots of opportunities for conversation around that. Um, but, uh, 637 00:33:24,290 --> 00:33:27,300 with a few people, a few of my closer teammates, if, if the question came up, 638 00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:29,780 it wasn't like I was leading with that. But if the, if anyone came up, 639 00:33:29,780 --> 00:33:32,020 I was fine with, with talking about it. What. 640 00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:34,340 Do you think was different about Amy that you thought, oh, 641 00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:36,780 right now I'm gonna do the thing, the sex thing? 642 00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:38,300 I, I, it just, I don't know. 643 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,700 Or older woman maybe. And. 644 00:33:40,420 --> 00:33:40,850 Possibly. 645 00:33:40,850 --> 00:33:44,100 It's interesting how I think about it now as far as starting a relationship with 646 00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:46,100 it with somebody and definitely pursuing that, 647 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:49,660 that that part of a relationship and having fun with it without the all or 648 00:33:49,660 --> 00:33:52,980 nothing approach to it. Uh, which comes back later for me as well. 649 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,700 Cuz Amy and I were to together for 20 years and there's a certain, 650 00:33:58,080 --> 00:33:58,580 uh, 651 00:33:58,580 --> 00:34:03,180 approach that I thought was needed to 652 00:34:03,180 --> 00:34:04,860 experience certain things in a relationship. 653 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,020 You have to get married and, uh. 654 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,860 Oh, you mean you thought in order to have sex you should get. 655 00:34:12,860 --> 00:34:15,660 Married? Yeah. Well, going forward, yeah. Going, going forward beyond that. 656 00:34:15,710 --> 00:34:19,060 After, after the time with Amy was over. 657 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:21,900 Uh, okay, hold on. I wanna make sure I understand this. 658 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:26,740 You're saying that after Amy you believed that you shouldn't have sex with 659 00:34:26,740 --> 00:34:30,380 anyone unless you were married. Uh, that was your belief system then? I. 660 00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:34,660 I don't think it was, uh, an over overt belief system. I just think it was, uh, 661 00:34:34,660 --> 00:34:36,660 from a safety point of view, uh, just as far. 662 00:34:36,660 --> 00:34:37,540 As, you mean like STDs or? 663 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,620 No, just as far as emotional comfort. Got it. Emotional comfort. Thank you. 664 00:34:40,620 --> 00:34:43,540 Okay. Yeah. Emotional comfort. And again, going back to just, 665 00:34:43,740 --> 00:34:47,860 I never casually dated, uh, never had casual sex before, 666 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,260 so it wasn't on my radar. You. 667 00:34:49,260 --> 00:34:50,100 Didn't have any practice at. 668 00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:52,540 That. There's no practice. Yeah. And it's certainly something that, you know, 669 00:34:52,540 --> 00:34:54,500 I can be, if I'm open to the conversation, great. 670 00:34:55,220 --> 00:34:58,140 I can participate at how I see fit. But if I shut it down, 671 00:34:58,250 --> 00:34:59,860 then the only option for me is. 672 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:00,920 Is all or nothing. 673 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,860 All or nothing. Sure. All or nothing. Which. 674 00:35:02,870 --> 00:35:07,740 Feeds perfectly into what you were right? Yeah. Was a way Amy. 675 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,580 So you meet Amy. Yes. You, you fall in love. Yes. 676 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:13,380 And you start dating and then you fall in love. What, 677 00:35:13,380 --> 00:35:14,460 whichever order it went in. 678 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,500 Uh, we moved in. She was living with a roommate. 679 00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:19,140 They had actually got a house together. And so we, 680 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,100 we moved in together and got engaged. 681 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,980 And from the start of your relationship, was she already saying things like, 682 00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:29,100 I don't want to grow old or I don't wanna be old, or, 683 00:35:29,250 --> 00:35:31,660 because I know that was kind of a part of her rhetoric. 684 00:35:32,410 --> 00:35:35,660 That, uh, that that came later. You know, that whole first year just. 685 00:35:36,530 --> 00:35:37,363 Blissed out. 686 00:35:37,450 --> 00:35:40,420 Yeah. Just learn, you know, just the adventures, just learning about each other. 687 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,060 We had the, the fencing as a sport. I ended up becoming her coach. 688 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:45,540 And you were. 689 00:35:45,540 --> 00:35:46,050 Her coach? 690 00:35:46,050 --> 00:35:47,740 Yeah. Oh, interesting. Taking over the, 691 00:35:47,740 --> 00:35:51,340 the coaching duties and she was starting to compete more regularly. And. 692 00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,260 How was that combining those two worlds? It was tough. Yeah, I bet. 693 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:56,233 It was really tough. 694 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,540 It was really tough in the beginning to separate that and we had to work at it 695 00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:03,220 together. And I also had to work at, at it myself, just to really, uh, 696 00:36:03,220 --> 00:36:05,660 take the ego out and, and not personalize it and, 697 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,780 but also set boundaries around that. And that took a while. That took a, 698 00:36:09,780 --> 00:36:11,180 that took a long time. . 699 00:36:12,740 --> 00:36:13,573 I bet. Yeah. 700 00:36:13,720 --> 00:36:16,180 And I'm, I'm laughing cuz when I think about it, I'm like, wow, 701 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:17,660 we survived that. Yeah. 702 00:36:17,660 --> 00:36:20,740 Because I mean, let's be honest, that's gotta be a tricky scenario. 703 00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:22,030 Yes. 704 00:36:22,030 --> 00:36:23,300 She's a champion too, wasn't she? 705 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,900 Yes. Yeah. And she was not a gray area, uh, person. It was black and white. 706 00:36:27,070 --> 00:36:29,460 Which is actually interesting thing about the, uh, the, uh, 707 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:32,100 the addictive personality approach. I mean, 708 00:36:32,100 --> 00:36:36,100 when she would lock into something that was it. There was no, 709 00:36:37,240 --> 00:36:41,540 uh, nothing else. And so consequently when she would get pushed over the edge, 710 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:47,500 uh, about something emotionally and whatever emotion was there, 711 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,740 if she got angry about something, that was it. 712 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:51,140 And she couldn't see anything else. 713 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,500 And that made her a really fierce competitor, which is fantastic. 714 00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:56,820 She's probably one of the greatest competitors that I've, that I've ever, um, 715 00:36:56,850 --> 00:37:00,380 experienced in seeing just from her mindset. But it came with a, 716 00:37:00,380 --> 00:37:02,900 came with a toll. I mean there was a huge, uh, 717 00:37:03,380 --> 00:37:06,780 a huge price to prey emotionally cuz she was never, and this is, 718 00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:10,500 these are my observations and words over time, but, uh, she was never, 719 00:37:10,510 --> 00:37:12,340 never satisfied. Never satisfied. 720 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:17,340 And you'll often find that is the case with people that are participating in any 721 00:37:17,340 --> 00:37:19,900 competitive sport that requires a lot of training and, 722 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:25,020 and technical proficiency because they're, um, the, the wins, 723 00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:27,860 and I'm putting in quotes, the the wins are, are fleeting. 724 00:37:28,250 --> 00:37:30,500 Yeah. They're immediately looking for the next thing. 725 00:37:30,670 --> 00:37:33,220 Completely. And it's almost like getting a fix. It. 726 00:37:33,220 --> 00:37:36,780 Is. Absolutely. It's not even almost like that. I would say that it is, 727 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,060 it is like that. 728 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:39,210 And somehow. 729 00:37:39,210 --> 00:37:42,060 It's that winning too can be addictive. That's the thing that, 730 00:37:42,130 --> 00:37:46,620 that I think is an important thing to mention and talking about any kind of 731 00:37:46,850 --> 00:37:49,420 addiction behavior doesn't have to be drugs and alcohol. 732 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,940 And I've said that before on the show. Yes, it can be running, it can be eating, 733 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,500 it can be feeling anger that can be addictive. 734 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,420 We see that all over social media, right. There's completely, 735 00:37:59,420 --> 00:38:03,100 completely all sorts of things that will kick off that part of the brain. 736 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:04,473 And for you, 737 00:38:04,980 --> 00:38:09,100 I imagine having a personality that is all or nothing 738 00:38:09,370 --> 00:38:14,260 emotionally when you're used to running far away from emotions. 739 00:38:14,450 --> 00:38:16,660 What an interesting combination for a couple. 740 00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:20,940 It, it was, it was very, very interesting, uh, 741 00:38:21,130 --> 00:38:26,020 because there was, um, and there's that instinct to, um, 742 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,140 to help but also knowing that help, 743 00:38:28,370 --> 00:38:33,060 help is giving space and help can take the form of 744 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,260 not looking like help by, um, 745 00:38:35,310 --> 00:38:38,380 separation in the sense of not having to be on the person all the time and 746 00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:43,060 trying to get in there and fix it. There's a process to it. And, uh, 747 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,980 in the beginning there was, I was, um, 748 00:38:46,260 --> 00:38:49,740 internalizing personalized everything and it was emotionally really draining. 749 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,260 And I didn't realize it at the time. It was afterwards, I will look back. 750 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:58,340 I'm like, wow, I invested far more than I needed to, to be the, 751 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,340 the best advocate for her coach, but also a husband, confidant friend, 752 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:04,233 all that. 753 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,860 And the other part of that is knowing that I can't fulfill all those roles. 754 00:39:07,930 --> 00:39:11,380 It's not my role to do that. And that was part of the all or nothing. Like, 755 00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:12,660 somehow and I, 756 00:39:12,660 --> 00:39:15,540 it came back on me like somehow I'm a failure or I'm less than because I 757 00:39:15,540 --> 00:39:17,780 couldn't provide all that. And that's not my role to, to do that. 758 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:21,780 And I think in the beginning when we were doing the dance and trying to figure 759 00:39:21,780 --> 00:39:23,020 it out, there was parts of the, 760 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,580 the coaching environment that were really great for both of us. 761 00:39:25,580 --> 00:39:29,300 And there was other parts that were holding both of us back that we just didn't 762 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:33,340 have conversations around, which was part of our marriage as well. And it was, 763 00:39:33,810 --> 00:39:36,940 it's kind of interesting, the, um, in some cases we were, 764 00:39:38,450 --> 00:39:40,420 were really great at the, 765 00:39:40,420 --> 00:39:44,540 the coach student relationship and other times we were really great at, uh, 766 00:39:44,540 --> 00:39:48,940 the being husband and wife. And it was, it's interesting for me to look at what, 767 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,500 how to merge those two so we can just have the best experience possible in the 768 00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:55,540 moment. And everything that goes along with that. Like, 769 00:39:55,540 --> 00:39:59,060 there was times where I didn't wanna be married to Amy and uh, 770 00:39:59,060 --> 00:40:00,940 I didn't know how to have those conversations with her. 771 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,220 Cuz there was definitely an opportunity for us to have conversations. And again, 772 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:04,520 my, 773 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:09,020 my patterns came up and it's like I'll maybe talk about it with somebody else 774 00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,780 and then even looking at, well how can I get out of this? Like, 775 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,220 I'm gonna be somehow better or, 776 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,300 or served by getting out of it as opposed to leaning into it and let's have a 777 00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:20,133 conversation about it. 778 00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:23,340 Why do you think it was that you didn't run in this scenario? 779 00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:29,900 Uh, I think in sitting here now having, you asked me that question because, 780 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,620 uh, I knew there was a, a better option. And also there's, 781 00:40:33,620 --> 00:40:36,460 there's the love that was com completely present and I, 782 00:40:36,460 --> 00:40:38,500 and I don't want to automatically say because I loved her, 783 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,180 cuz there's a lot that goes in with that. There's a lot that lot goes, 784 00:40:42,370 --> 00:40:43,060 goes through with that. 785 00:40:43,060 --> 00:40:46,900 So it's not just an obvious because I loved her and that's it, 786 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,420 that's just the beginning of the conversation. So I knew that there was, 787 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,540 uh, something more, it just comes up as there was a better way to do things. Mm. 788 00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,420 Uh and also I wasn't satisfied with the way I'd responded to things in the past. 789 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,020 So you're developing a self-awareness of Patty? 790 00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:06,300 The self-awareness? Yes. Yeah. Just of, of the pattern and maybe not, uh, 791 00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:09,540 being able to, uh, verbalize it. Sure. Uh, but more, uh, 792 00:41:09,540 --> 00:41:13,820 reactive and it seemed like I was reacting less a certain way with those things 793 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,260 and maybe because she was really reactive with, she took on that role. 794 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,420 And so maybe it was possible for me to see, 795 00:41:20,170 --> 00:41:23,500 satisfy that need to react a certain way, but she was doing it and then, 796 00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:27,860 you know, I could come in and and fix it. That's in close too, . 797 00:41:28,530 --> 00:41:32,820 Sure. How long into your marriage was she diagnosed? 798 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,660 And did you, did you notice anything leading up to that? 799 00:41:36,660 --> 00:41:38,860 Were there signs that something was amiss? 800 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,420 Uh, there was only some, um, some swelling, 801 00:41:43,450 --> 00:41:45,980 some waxing and weighting swelling that was happening around her, 802 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,820 her thyroid gland and her in her neck. And uh, 803 00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:54,700 but as far as anything physical beyond that, anything, 804 00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:58,540 um, you know, just in her behavior or mm-hmm. , you know, 805 00:41:58,540 --> 00:42:03,060 mental state, there was nothing other than just feeling like she was having, um, 806 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:05,020 the onset of a flu or something like that. 807 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,900 One of the parents of a client had her father went through the same thing and 808 00:42:09,330 --> 00:42:12,140 just based on the way the swelling, she said to Amy, 809 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,180 you should have this go checked out. 810 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:19,340 And actually Amy did go and it took us a year to get a diagnosis, just going, 811 00:42:19,340 --> 00:42:20,860 just going through the process and, 812 00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,620 and the time and getting the test and some of the tests not being 813 00:42:25,620 --> 00:42:29,740 conclusive. And the other thing is that we found that the doctors, 814 00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:34,100 the ones that we were seeing and participating with in the, in the, in the, 815 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,060 in the programs, uh, 816 00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:39,820 were really hesitant about giving well, 817 00:42:39,820 --> 00:42:42,820 testing for certain things based on the, um, the percentages, 818 00:42:42,820 --> 00:42:46,940 but also then giving the news. And Amy was very, like I said, she was very, 819 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,380 she was very direct with stuff like that. 820 00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:49,860 She didn't want someone to beat around the bush. 821 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,300 If I got something to deal with, tell me. And she had, 822 00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,460 she was really upset when the diagnosis for lymphoma first came back 823 00:42:57,570 --> 00:42:59,700 because she felt she lost a whole year of I was. 824 00:42:59,860 --> 00:43:00,460 I wish feel. 825 00:43:00,460 --> 00:43:04,020 That way too. Treatment and everything that went along with that. Yeah. And, uh, 826 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,300 anyway, so then that started a whole nother, a whole nother phase, 827 00:43:07,860 --> 00:43:10,740 a phase of our, of our relationship as it started to progress. 828 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,660 And with our business that we had at the time and treatments and everything, 829 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,140 we actually opened a, a, 830 00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:21,460 a fencing club and I was still working at the other place. Mm-hmm. 831 00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:26,260 . And that was a whole nother dynamic being owners, married, uh, 832 00:43:26,310 --> 00:43:30,140 coach, I mean living together, really mixed stuff. It was 24 7. 833 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,460 So what happens next? She's been diagnosed. And that has to be, 834 00:43:35,460 --> 00:43:38,980 especially for somebody who is a champion athletic person, 835 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,700 to be given this information that there is a tiny thing in 836 00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:47,940 your body that's going to try and destroy you from the inside out. Right. 837 00:43:47,980 --> 00:43:49,660 I mean, how do you wrap your head around that? 838 00:43:50,240 --> 00:43:53,780 I'm still wrapping my head around it. And it was, that was, uh, years ago. 839 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,900 We went through the diagnosis and we got with a specialist, an oncologist that, 840 00:43:57,900 --> 00:44:00,260 that deals with that type of, uh, 841 00:44:00,260 --> 00:44:03,660 lympho lymphoma specifically and got all the typing, which is more testing. 842 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,460 And basically I started a chemotherapy. 843 00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:10,540 I know they have immunotherapy options now that are really effective. 844 00:44:10,540 --> 00:44:13,420 Chemotherapy was really the only option back then. 845 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,100 And she was upset about that cuz it's basically the analogy at the time that 846 00:44:18,100 --> 00:44:21,340 someone shared with her was, it's like fire bombing the, uh, 847 00:44:21,340 --> 00:44:23,740 the inside a of a house to kill a cockroach. 848 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,300 And that's what she said she felt like when she started to go through the 849 00:44:28,300 --> 00:44:30,820 process more in the beginning there's kind of an excitement, 850 00:44:30,820 --> 00:44:33,010 there's a relief that yeah, I'm gonna take care of this. 851 00:44:33,010 --> 00:44:36,220 And then the reality of it and everyone's body handles a little differently, 852 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:40,180 so there's no one thing. And it just, it just crushed her, uh, from the, uh, 853 00:44:40,460 --> 00:44:41,900 mentally but also from the inside as well. 854 00:44:42,010 --> 00:44:45,100 Just her body was just started completely changed. And I think that's when the, 855 00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:47,860 uh, getting back to what you asked earlier, 856 00:44:47,900 --> 00:44:51,140 I think that's when the conversations first started because her family, 857 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:54,060 but she wanna leave, she, her family has a, uh, has a history of, 858 00:44:54,720 --> 00:44:59,620 of cancer and she was hoping that it would skip her 859 00:44:59,620 --> 00:45:01,900 generation. She definitely was hoping that it would skip her, 860 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,780 her brother because of his family and his, his, his children and everything. 861 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,340 And her brother's fine. Uh, but it, 862 00:45:10,340 --> 00:45:12,500 it got her and I think early on she was, 863 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,900 she was convinced and she shared as much. She, 864 00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:20,020 it's not a matter of of if it gets her as far as it takes her life, but when, 865 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:21,740 and I think she started to, 866 00:45:22,210 --> 00:45:24,100 even though the treatments in the beginning were successful, 867 00:45:24,140 --> 00:45:27,340 I think she started to, to kind of change her, her mindset around that, 868 00:45:27,590 --> 00:45:30,260 which was great from a competitor's point of view because it was, 869 00:45:30,260 --> 00:45:33,380 she had nothing to lose when she would go out there and, and compete. 870 00:45:33,380 --> 00:45:36,500 Once she got to a point when she could start competing again and she was just 871 00:45:37,650 --> 00:45:40,420 unstoppable in certain situations. Uh, and then 872 00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,660 all the energy would go into that and there wasn't, there wasn't a lot left for, 873 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,420 for, uh, her regular living. 874 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,020 How did her cancer create 875 00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:55,540 a cancer for you two? 876 00:45:55,890 --> 00:46:00,300 Well, I became a caregiver and not full-blown caregiver right away, but the, 877 00:46:00,770 --> 00:46:02,340 just the focus, uh, 878 00:46:02,340 --> 00:46:06,900 changed as far as when she was feeling great, she was feeling great. 879 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:11,540 And when she was, when we, we got almost 18 months for the, 880 00:46:11,540 --> 00:46:14,460 after the first chemotherapy and then, then she relapsed. 881 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,900 If you don't have a relapse, anything noticeable beyond two years, 882 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,220 the percentages go way up as far as longevity. Uh, 883 00:46:23,220 --> 00:46:28,140 but it was 18 months and then we did a stem cell transplant and that 884 00:46:28,140 --> 00:46:29,340 was a whole different experience. 885 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,340 And then there was another 18 months basically after that. And then, uh, 886 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,140 and then for, for those that had done, no, 887 00:46:35,140 --> 00:46:38,740 a stem cell transplant is basically a complete reset of the, the body, 888 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,700 the system. I think we got maybe six months, eight months. 889 00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:45,620 Uh, and then she had another, 890 00:46:46,810 --> 00:46:49,140 some episodes that started to come up and it was gonna require, 891 00:46:49,140 --> 00:46:51,900 require different treatment and there were some other oral options that might be 892 00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:52,200 available. 893 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,140 But her options were limited because the more you treated with the same thing, 894 00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,100 the less effective it is to the point where it just doing more damage. 895 00:46:58,650 --> 00:47:00,740 Were you starting to see her give up then? 896 00:47:00,870 --> 00:47:04,580 There was moments. There was moments and, and, um, that's. 897 00:47:04,580 --> 00:47:06,740 A hell of a lot to put your body through for anyone. 898 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,900 It is. And, uh, she, I mean there was times she was always active, 899 00:47:10,900 --> 00:47:15,260 very athletic. And, and I think the second after the stem cell transplant, she, 900 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:19,900 uh, was starting to feel good and she was gonna go for a walk. She, uh, 901 00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:23,060 basically shuffled and she described as that she shuffled down to the end of the 902 00:47:23,260 --> 00:47:26,420 driveway and she was just exhausted and she just took a breath and she looked at 903 00:47:26,420 --> 00:47:29,640 the street and then she just turned around and shuffled back. And that was it, 904 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:31,740 uh, for that exercise. 905 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,660 But also was a big shift for her as far as taking advantage of the opportunities 906 00:47:36,660 --> 00:47:41,140 when she really did feel good, uh, from a, from a, um, from a fencing, 907 00:47:41,140 --> 00:47:43,460 from a training point of view, knowing that there's times when she's, 908 00:47:43,470 --> 00:47:44,380 she's not gonna feel good. 909 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,660 And I think it was after the stem cell transplant and that she started to kind 910 00:47:47,660 --> 00:47:50,580 of relapse again. I think that's when, uh, 911 00:47:50,580 --> 00:47:53,180 she really started to change her, 912 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:58,360 her mindset as far as she's not gonna be around for much longer. 913 00:47:58,820 --> 00:48:00,520 And just setting things up around that. 914 00:48:00,610 --> 00:48:05,320 There was some one time she went to compete and the doctor told her that they 915 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,280 didn't advise that and she was like, I'm going anyways. 916 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:12,680 I was proud of that because she was, that's, she was gonna go compete. 917 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,920 She was gonna do it her way and if she dropped dead on the strip, uh, 918 00:48:16,030 --> 00:48:17,080 then that's what happens. 919 00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:18,520 I mean, that's badass. 920 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,560 I it is. That's a, you know, that's a good story. . Well. 921 00:48:21,620 --> 00:48:26,200 How are you taking all of this along the way as you're starting to see that 922 00:48:26,250 --> 00:48:28,000 she's not gonna get through it? 923 00:48:28,470 --> 00:48:28,920 Well, I, 924 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:33,000 it was difficult for me to have that conversation if I voiced anything around 925 00:48:33,060 --> 00:48:36,760 the fact that she was getting worse, ultimately over time and not better, 926 00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:40,200 that would acknowledge the situation. And I didn't wanna acknowledge it. 927 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,840 I didn't wanna accept it. So I, 928 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,080 I took the ostrich approach on some level and didn't The. 929 00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:45,960 Ostrich approach. 930 00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:48,200 Yeah. Yeah. Just pulled my head on the ground. I didn't wanna look at it. 931 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,440 I was doing most of running the business. And when she was healthy, 932 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,240 she would come in and, and she would participate. And, uh, 933 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,120 everyone just loved her energy. Everyone loved her energy. And, 934 00:48:56,220 --> 00:49:00,040 and from an ego point of view, there's times where I like, Hey, you know what, 935 00:49:00,090 --> 00:49:03,600 who's what about me? Uh, but I got over that really quickly because everyone, 936 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:08,280 everyone has that. It's just where it, where it gets projected. And once the, 937 00:49:08,620 --> 00:49:12,560 the disease started to take hold cuz it, uh, uh, just the, 938 00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,680 the cancer becomes a cumulative effect, any of the treatments. 939 00:49:14,940 --> 00:49:19,280 And so it's then she started having conversations about quality of life. Hmm. 940 00:49:19,620 --> 00:49:22,560 Uh, which again, I, I didn't wanna have those conversations. 941 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:23,720 I didn't feel prepared. 942 00:49:24,260 --> 00:49:26,400 Of course now my conversations would be completely different, 943 00:49:26,540 --> 00:49:28,680 but at the time I just didn't feel prepared. And, 944 00:49:29,060 --> 00:49:32,080 and part of my role was to be the, uh, the rah rah person, 945 00:49:32,140 --> 00:49:36,440 but also take care of the necessities, run the business, uh, take care of, uh, 946 00:49:36,460 --> 00:49:40,520 the coaching duties, um, you know, whatever needed to happen. And that's when, 947 00:49:40,580 --> 00:49:44,200 uh, when I realized af in the moment sometimes. But looking back, 948 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,640 just the caregiving role, how early it started, 949 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,320 I didn't really think that it started until she got more sick. 950 00:49:50,340 --> 00:49:53,960 But it was in place right from the beginning. And then that, I mean, 951 00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,120 there was it was became 24 7. 952 00:49:56,340 --> 00:49:57,360 Who accepted it first? 953 00:49:57,860 --> 00:49:59,520 Oh, she did. She did. Yeah, she did. 954 00:50:00,140 --> 00:50:03,120 Was she mad that you weren't accepting it, or did she understand? 955 00:50:04,260 --> 00:50:07,880 Uh, both, uh, I think, um, we had, 956 00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:11,600 we started to have more conversations, uh, around it. Mm-hmm. , uh, 957 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,040 but not just a hundred percent. Put all the cards on the table. Let's, 958 00:50:15,090 --> 00:50:19,040 let's get into this. When I think back about it, that's upsetting to me now, 959 00:50:19,460 --> 00:50:21,600 and I want to make myself wrong for it, 960 00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:25,080 but I know I was just doing the best that I could in the moment, and it was, 961 00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:26,480 I wouldn't change anything. 962 00:50:26,700 --> 00:50:29,420 And the behavior started to change a little bit around that. Uh, 963 00:50:29,420 --> 00:50:32,060 she would always, she would enjoy her wine beverages, 964 00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,740 and it just became the only places she could feel good when she was being able 965 00:50:36,740 --> 00:50:39,900 to drink wine. Yeah. Just have some wine on the couch with, uh, 966 00:50:39,900 --> 00:50:42,620 all of our animals that bonded, completely bonded to her, 967 00:50:42,620 --> 00:50:45,860 and they just surrounded her. They were great charge nurses when, uh, I'm not. 968 00:50:45,860 --> 00:50:49,620 Think animals know when you're sick, they step up and get. 969 00:50:49,620 --> 00:50:53,260 Completely extra completely. They're just pressed up against her. And, 970 00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,260 and that was, that was really when she felt the best. 971 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:57,740 And were you drinking with her at this point? 972 00:50:57,890 --> 00:51:01,140 Yeah, she started me down my, my path of, of drinking. 973 00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:06,140 I don't wanna speak for her, but it just became a, uh, uh, a place of, uh, 974 00:51:06,410 --> 00:51:10,580 well, just feeling like she had some control over something and makes sense. 975 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:14,540 And it made her, and it made her feel good. And I'm, you know, I'm not one to, 976 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,580 I'm not gonna say anything about it. I mean, if, if there's, 977 00:51:17,580 --> 00:51:19,700 and there was times that she said, I, she thinks she's, uh, 978 00:51:19,910 --> 00:51:23,460 maybe not helping out her health because she might be drinking a little bit too 979 00:51:23,460 --> 00:51:26,940 much and, you know, we just would work through it. But it wasn't anything that, 980 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,940 uh, needed to have a conversation. Uh, beyond that. 981 00:51:30,140 --> 00:51:34,700 I feel like at that point, if you want to eat filet mignon and, you know, 982 00:51:35,010 --> 00:51:38,980 gobs of french fries or you know, oh God, smoke crack, or whatever the hell, 983 00:51:39,420 --> 00:51:43,620 I feel like you're entitled at that point when you know that death is coming, 984 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:49,060 it seems that the last effort of some control 985 00:51:49,170 --> 00:51:53,820 that you sh really, truly should do whatever you freaking want to your body, 986 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:54,220 you know. 987 00:51:54,220 --> 00:51:55,053 Completely. 988 00:51:55,180 --> 00:51:56,660 I know this is a right to die state. 989 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,580 Did you help her shuffle off the mortal Coil, 990 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:02,820 or did she do it on her own terms? 991 00:52:03,340 --> 00:52:08,260 Probably a year before she had started to talk about quality of life, and, uh, 992 00:52:08,260 --> 00:52:13,020 she actually found an organization in Switzerland. 993 00:52:13,050 --> 00:52:13,740 Yeah, I forgot. 994 00:52:13,740 --> 00:52:15,980 The name. Dr. Nietzche. I interviewed him. 995 00:52:16,570 --> 00:52:17,900 Okay, fantastic. I had to look at that. 996 00:52:18,490 --> 00:52:19,900 It's such a good episode. Yeah. A. 997 00:52:19,900 --> 00:52:23,340 Whole kit. Everything. And then you come and you stay. And , 998 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,580 she actually, you know, signed up for it and there was a certain initiation, 999 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,900 uh, not an initiation, but there was a, there was a fee attached to it. Yeah. 1000 00:52:31,900 --> 00:52:34,580 And of course, uh, I, I bulked with the fee. 1001 00:52:35,450 --> 00:52:37,620 It's like $35 or something, right? Yeah. 1002 00:52:37,620 --> 00:52:38,180 I can't remember what it. 1003 00:52:38,180 --> 00:52:40,020 It's not a lot, but it was nominal. I think it's to, 1004 00:52:40,210 --> 00:52:44,820 it's to get people to just willy-nilly go get a suicide kit. 1005 00:52:45,420 --> 00:52:46,253 , right. 1006 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:51,460 Our right to die laws are pretty messed up that we allow human beings to suffer 1007 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:56,540 so immensely, truly for the people that are surviving. I mean, 1008 00:52:56,540 --> 00:52:59,980 it's not for the person dying. They're dying. Right. 1009 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,020 And in a lot of cases in misery. 1010 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:06,940 And to have dominion over that part of one's life and death 1011 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,100 is an empowering thing. But of course, you, 1012 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,820 to fight against all the people who are like, don't go, don't go. 1013 00:53:13,410 --> 00:53:18,020 Back then California was not, and, uh, she wanted to move to Oregon. Yeah. 1014 00:53:18,020 --> 00:53:19,060 Oregon and Oregon. 1015 00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:20,580 And Washington. And there's, 1016 00:53:20,580 --> 00:53:23,460 there's now several states that are allowing Right to Die. That. 1017 00:53:23,460 --> 00:53:26,980 Was not a conversation that I was willing to have that time. And again, 1018 00:53:26,980 --> 00:53:30,220 it'd be completely different now. And I've done some writing about this, uh, 1019 00:53:30,220 --> 00:53:33,580 as well and worked with a therapist about it. But, uh, it was always about, 1020 00:53:33,580 --> 00:53:36,900 well, what about me? What about me? And just kinda personalizing it, 1021 00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:40,420 just like you said, and, and, uh, not being able to, uh, 1022 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,980 see a clear path to step out of, out of the way of that. 1023 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,260 And really as a, as a caregiver, as a, as a husband, just to really be, 1024 00:53:51,280 --> 00:53:55,140 as a partner, to be supportive and appreciative of the opportunity that, 1025 00:53:55,330 --> 00:53:57,460 that we have to be able to work through this together. Mm-hmm. 1026 00:53:57,500 --> 00:53:59,500 in cleaning up the house, 1027 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:04,300 one time I found a box and I pulled it out and I hear this audible groan 1028 00:54:04,770 --> 00:54:07,860 from Amy, I think she was in the same room. And I'm like, Hey, what's this box? 1029 00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,460 She goes, don't look at it. And it was a, uh, 1030 00:54:10,580 --> 00:54:13,580 helium kit and there was a lady in Oregon, I think it was an Oregon, 1031 00:54:13,810 --> 00:54:17,620 that was selling these helium kits. And it was, um, 1032 00:54:18,260 --> 00:54:20,420 a basically a plastic bag, if you will, 1033 00:54:21,250 --> 00:54:24,940 that you would put over your head and it would attach a certain way, 1034 00:54:24,940 --> 00:54:28,900 and then you would attach a bottle of helium to it, 1035 00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:33,500 and it would, you just turn it on, you go to sleep. And then that's, that's it. 1036 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:38,100 So I, yeah, you can sound like that. And you can, you can laugh. 1037 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,740 And until you inhaling of, uh, helium to. 1038 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:44,500 To die for finding somebody in that state seems really over the top. 1039 00:54:44,500 --> 00:54:48,860 Because I know for Dr. Nuke, his kits, you just fall asleep. You in, you know, 1040 00:54:48,860 --> 00:54:52,380 it's a shot and, and then another shot, and then you're a mess. 1041 00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,020 Sleepy time then in, you're found sleepy, time peaceful, 1042 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,820 or you're the people around you, not with a bag over your head. You, 1043 00:54:58,970 --> 00:54:59,940 it's a lot . 1044 00:55:00,170 --> 00:55:04,260 Well, and I, to look at, well, and I just rolled my eyes and I just, you know, 1045 00:55:04,500 --> 00:55:08,140 I I, I just put it back where I was. I just said, uh, put it back where I was. 1046 00:55:08,140 --> 00:55:09,500 And it was only after, uh, 1047 00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:12,460 later on when I was cleaning up the house after she had passed away, 1048 00:55:12,460 --> 00:55:17,340 that I found the bottle that she got it from Party City. And there was a bottle, 1049 00:55:17,460 --> 00:55:20,580 a big bottle of helium that you blow balloons with. And, uh, 1050 00:55:20,580 --> 00:55:23,780 she said that she was sitting there one day with it on her, on her head. 1051 00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:27,220 And the only reason she didn't do anything is cuz she couldn't figure out how to 1052 00:55:27,460 --> 00:55:32,340 complete the attachment to make it work. And I found out some of this later, 1053 00:55:32,350 --> 00:55:33,580 after reading her journal, 1054 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:37,100 and she said that I could certainly read that afterwards. And I was horrified. 1055 00:55:37,260 --> 00:55:40,780 I was horrified because again, I'm, I, I personalized it. I'm like, you know, 1056 00:55:40,780 --> 00:55:44,540 she's not thinking about me or I'm a failure. And coming home to that, like, 1057 00:55:44,540 --> 00:55:45,900 part of me, I was like, wow, that would. 1058 00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:49,020 That's what I'm saying, coming home to that little intense, it. 1059 00:55:49,020 --> 00:55:52,900 Got to the point when things started to really turn, like the 2013 was a, 1060 00:55:52,900 --> 00:55:57,180 was a pretty, pretty good year. And we were leading up to December of 2013, 1061 00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,020 and she, she started to feel really good. She started to feel good. 1062 00:56:00,020 --> 00:56:00,940 She was walking more, 1063 00:56:00,940 --> 00:56:03,660 and she started to think about anytime she started thinking about fencing and 1064 00:56:03,660 --> 00:56:07,020 competing again and training. I, I knew we were going in the right direction. 1065 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,900 And then January of 2014, things just changed. 1066 00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:14,340 She started to lose balance. We were spending, 1067 00:56:14,580 --> 00:56:18,420 spending more time in the hospital. Uh, she couldn't teach anymore. And then it, 1068 00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,740 it became a situation where we were gonna have to have somebody come in. 1069 00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,540 And she did not, she did not want anybody to, to be part of it. 1070 00:56:26,540 --> 00:56:29,100 She didn't wanna be, she first, she would say it. She didn't wanna be a burden. 1071 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,340 She didn't want anybody to, to, to come in. And also there was an, uh, 1072 00:56:33,370 --> 00:56:37,700 accepting, uh, of the finality of what was happening. 1073 00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,700 One of the things I was reading is that the, uh, when you're, 1074 00:56:40,700 --> 00:56:43,300 when someone's in the dying process, which I realized that she was in, 1075 00:56:43,830 --> 00:56:45,660 after we turned the corner into January, 1076 00:56:46,690 --> 00:56:49,300 just the cumulative effect changes the entire body. 1077 00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:52,420 And things just start to shut down. And they just do it at, at different times, 1078 00:56:52,770 --> 00:56:57,020 cognitive ability changes and the receding of the consciousness, uh, happens. 1079 00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:01,220 And I started to, uh, I started to see that, but it, it became a, um, 1080 00:57:01,620 --> 00:57:04,940 situation where I would go to work and I was just anxious all the time. 1081 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,140 And I know my coaching changed around that time just to where my, 1082 00:57:08,350 --> 00:57:11,500 where my focus was. And I was trying to be as even keel as possible. 1083 00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,420 But then I didn't know what I was gonna find when I came home. 1084 00:57:13,860 --> 00:57:16,180 I didn't know if she was just gonna be expired on the couch. 1085 00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,100 And when she started talking about taking her own life, 1086 00:57:19,140 --> 00:57:20,180 I didn't know what I was gonna find. 1087 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,540 And also she could have fallen and hit her head. 1088 00:57:22,540 --> 00:57:25,780 That happened a couple of times, uh, as well. Uh, you know, 1089 00:57:25,780 --> 00:57:28,820 she wasn't planning on that, of course. But things really started to change. 1090 00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,380 And that's when, uh, I, when I started to, for me, 1091 00:57:33,450 --> 00:57:37,780 have that more present realization and 1092 00:57:37,780 --> 00:57:41,970 conversation about, this is gonna go a certain direction. 1093 00:57:42,430 --> 00:57:47,250 It was April 9th that took her into the hospital, excuse me. Uh, 1094 00:57:47,250 --> 00:57:49,090 and that was for the last time. And she was there for a week. 1095 00:57:49,110 --> 00:57:52,410 And then I decided to, and that's one thing she said, she goes, 1096 00:57:52,410 --> 00:57:56,850 don't let me don die in the hospital. She goes, I'm not, not gonna do it. 1097 00:57:56,850 --> 00:58:01,610 And so there was a opportunity to do hospice, and if it was at home or in the, 1098 00:58:01,610 --> 00:58:05,290 in the hospital, then I said, no, we're taking her home. And, uh, 1099 00:58:05,290 --> 00:58:08,570 so we took her home, set her up in this bed in the living room. 1100 00:58:08,830 --> 00:58:12,410 My mom was invaluable. She came over and she still, still low. 1101 00:58:12,410 --> 00:58:15,690 Cause she came over and she just spent, I don't know, like two weeks, two, 1102 00:58:15,690 --> 00:58:16,850 two weeks. Me, with me. 1103 00:58:17,350 --> 00:58:20,650 We were trading hospital runs and I had to come home and get some sleep. 1104 00:58:20,670 --> 00:58:24,930 But when we did finally bring her, bring her home, I woke up and, uh, I was, 1105 00:58:24,930 --> 00:58:27,770 there was a couch was right by the bed. And, but I just heard this, this noise, 1106 00:58:27,830 --> 00:58:29,130 and I'm waking up and I, 1107 00:58:29,690 --> 00:58:32,050 I was very aware of her breathing patterns and everything, 1108 00:58:32,070 --> 00:58:34,730 and I just hear this ticking, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. 1109 00:58:34,750 --> 00:58:37,650 And it was one of our little pomeranians just phenomenal little adorable 1110 00:58:37,970 --> 00:58:41,490 creatures walking around the bed because they would always sleep with her. 1111 00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:45,050 And it was the fingernails on the wood floor because he was trying to find a way 1112 00:58:45,070 --> 00:58:48,290 up. And it was tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. And so I was able to, uh, 1113 00:58:48,290 --> 00:58:50,970 pick him up and I hadn't put him in the bed yet and, 1114 00:58:50,970 --> 00:58:53,330 and put him in the bed and he just curled up. And that was it. 1115 00:58:53,390 --> 00:58:57,890 So then I would made sure that I got all the animals up there, 1116 00:58:57,890 --> 00:58:59,370 and some of them found their own way up there. 1117 00:58:59,370 --> 00:59:01,770 The other ones needed to be put up there. But it was a complete, 1118 00:59:02,810 --> 00:59:06,210 complete experience that I didn't feel that I was prepared for yet. 1119 00:59:06,290 --> 00:59:10,330 I was completely prepared for it by, uh, leading, uh, 1120 00:59:10,330 --> 00:59:11,530 with everything leading up to it. 1121 00:59:13,070 --> 00:59:14,650 So is that the night she passed away? 1122 00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:18,770 Wednesday? That I brought her home, and then it was that Friday. Friday, the, 1123 00:59:18,790 --> 00:59:23,780 the, the 18th. April 18th, 2014 at 7:51 AM . 1124 00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:26,220 And were you present with her? I. 1125 00:59:26,220 --> 00:59:28,660 Was. Yeah. Yeah, it was important. I wanted to, wanted to be there. 1126 00:59:28,660 --> 00:59:30,460 And I know the, um, the, the, 1127 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,260 the breathing started to change and there's a whole process that the, 1128 00:59:33,260 --> 00:59:34,980 that the body goes through. I, I won't describe it. 1129 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:36,540 Was she conscious at all at this point? 1130 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:37,473 No, not at this point. 1131 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:41,140 One of the hospice nurses said the hearing is the last thing to go. Uh, 1132 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:44,300 so there was, when she first came back to the house, I put some headsets on, 1133 00:59:44,300 --> 00:59:47,180 played some of the classical music from her, her playing that she, 1134 00:59:47,180 --> 00:59:49,940 she loved to hear was talking to her as I, uh, 1135 00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,700 as I found the words and just being with her. And I remember, um, you know, 1136 00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:54,580 holding her hand and, 1137 00:59:55,880 --> 01:00:00,620 and just feeling and seeing everything that goes with a 1138 01:00:00,630 --> 01:00:03,980 human being. And in this case, Amy taking her last breath. 1139 01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:08,980 And it was very apparent, and you could hear it, see it, feel it. 1140 01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,700 And she inhaled. And then she exhaled. Uh, and that was it. 1141 01:00:14,650 --> 01:00:17,260 What an honor that you had Susan. 1142 01:00:17,260 --> 01:00:19,260 Completely, completely. 1143 01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:23,900 And maybe not necessarily realizing it consciously, that exact moment, 1144 01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,940 but completely feeling it. And just from a visceral point of view. 1145 01:00:26,940 --> 01:00:31,380 And there was a relief. There was a, there was relief. It's a lot. And I, uh, 1146 01:00:31,410 --> 01:00:35,820 there's still part of me, uh, I have to be honest, that feels, um, 1147 01:00:36,210 --> 01:00:41,140 there's, um, there's a regret. Um, 1148 01:00:41,140 --> 01:00:46,060 there's almost a, sorry, a resentment. Like I didn't do enough. And, 1149 01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,620 uh, that's part of my, my process completely. That's part of my journey. And, 1150 01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:53,980 uh, but I know that I did, I did everything I was supposed to do. 1151 01:00:54,250 --> 01:00:55,700 Well, I can offer to you this, 1152 01:00:55,930 --> 01:01:00,820 that for a person like you who had had a history of running and getting 1153 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:05,300 as far away from that kind of feeling within you as possible, 1154 01:01:05,300 --> 01:01:09,300 that you stuck it out through the very end. This is a huge, 1155 01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,980 that's huge. So. 1156 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:14,393 To honor. 1157 01:01:14,460 --> 01:01:14,740 Yourself for. 1158 01:01:14,740 --> 01:01:16,740 That, thank no, I, I feel that, and she, uh, 1159 01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,380 she even said as much in her journal, she would write when she was sick, 1160 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,900 and she wouldn't write when she was feeling well. And so she had a, 1161 01:01:24,180 --> 01:01:27,820 a journal that was intermittent over, over seven years. And, uh, 1162 01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:32,820 and she would even talk about that. And she would talk about she didn't know. 1163 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,540 Uh, she didn't know, first of all, she didn't know why I stuck around . 1164 01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:40,900 And, uh, she knows, and she said she, she couldn't do it with, 1165 01:01:40,960 --> 01:01:41,793 uh, without me. 1166 01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:46,380 That's a big deal. That must have been surreal to read those journals. 1167 01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:48,980 It was. And she actually, um, 1168 01:01:50,940 --> 01:01:54,180 I know I shared it with you, uh, before, 1169 01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,580 but she wrote a goodbye letter and, uh, as she found it, 1170 01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,660 she wrote it in October of 2013. 1171 01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:03,940 So it was basically six months before she passed away. Again. 1172 01:02:04,020 --> 01:02:06,900 I cleaning up the desk, guess I'm always cleaning stuff. 1173 01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,820 But I pulled out some paperwork and I, I'm like, oh, what's this? And she goes, 1174 01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,900 she goes, oh, that's your goodbye letter. And I was like, what? She goes, 1175 01:02:14,900 --> 01:02:16,300 you can read it if you want to. And I, 1176 01:02:16,770 --> 01:02:21,620 there's times where I wish I had read it at that time so that we could 1177 01:02:21,620 --> 01:02:25,620 have had a conversation around it. And, uh, maybe it was an invitation for, 1178 01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:30,620 for her saying that for me to, uh, to read it. And then, um, and I said, no, 1179 01:02:30,620 --> 01:02:33,340 I'm not gonna read that. And I think I said, I'll wait. I'll, I'll wait to, 1180 01:02:33,340 --> 01:02:34,540 I'll wait for later. Something like. 1181 01:02:34,540 --> 01:02:36,900 That. I'm sure that was a moment of like, no, I'm not gonna read that. 1182 01:02:36,900 --> 01:02:39,740 Cause if I read that, that means it's inevitable. Yeah. 1183 01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:41,860 And there's still that fight against the inevitable. 1184 01:02:41,860 --> 01:02:44,500 Inevitable. And actually after, when I did read it, of course, 1185 01:02:44,500 --> 01:02:46,420 it was a brilliant, it was one page. It was brilliant. 1186 01:02:46,420 --> 01:02:48,060 It touched on everything that she wanted, I think wanted. 1187 01:02:48,060 --> 01:02:49,860 To, I sent it to me once I, I think I read it. Yeah. 1188 01:02:49,930 --> 01:02:53,900 Yeah. I, uh, I touched on everything. Touched on everything that, 1189 01:02:53,900 --> 01:02:55,380 that she wanted to convey. I mean, 1190 01:02:55,380 --> 01:02:58,820 it was basically 20 years of her relationship sh summed up in a letter and it 1191 01:02:58,820 --> 01:03:02,420 was just, it was perfect. Touched on the animals, you know, touched, 1192 01:03:02,420 --> 01:03:06,740 touched on a few things that she wanted to share. Uh, and it was just, 1193 01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:07,593 it was great. 1194 01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:09,100 How are you doing, by the way? I'm, I'm. 1195 01:03:09,100 --> 01:03:10,740 Doing good, . I'm doing good. You're making me. 1196 01:03:10,740 --> 01:03:15,140 Cry too. No, I mean, I cried too. It's okay. Tears. I was crying also. I'm sure. 1197 01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:18,540 No was all tears of love and gratitude and joy. It's a lot. And just the beauty, 1198 01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:19,940 the beauty that comes with it's lot. 1199 01:03:20,260 --> 01:03:22,460 I, I have been with people when they've pa you know, 1200 01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:26,100 in the leading up points and also in the moments. And, and it's, 1201 01:03:26,130 --> 01:03:30,180 it's a big honor. It's painful, but it's a big honor. She passes away. 1202 01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:35,100 And how do you deal with that? When does the, 1203 01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:36,980 the downward spiral begin? 1204 01:03:37,250 --> 01:03:42,020 Well, the downward spiral , if we're gonna characterize it, , 1205 01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:46,580 put a nail, put a label on it started before. Mm. And as, 1206 01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,540 as I mentioned, we talked about just really enjoying the wine tasting weekends. 1207 01:03:50,540 --> 01:03:53,540 And there's some wine tasting weekends that we would go away and drink a lot of 1208 01:03:53,540 --> 01:03:55,020 wine. And there's other times when we didn't, 1209 01:03:55,080 --> 01:04:00,060 we would just do a little taste and spend money on food or just out adventuring. 1210 01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,540 But then, uh, for me, after the, 1211 01:04:03,540 --> 01:04:06,700 the caregiving and then the working and coming home, uh, late, 1212 01:04:06,700 --> 01:04:09,420 there was about once I was able to put her to bed, 1213 01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:13,540 and she was medicated to the point where she would be, you know, 1214 01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:16,220 two to three hours. And sometimes we would get more than that, 1215 01:04:16,220 --> 01:04:20,900 sometimes the pain would just cut through. And she had a high tolerance. Uh, 1216 01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:23,540 so sometimes there was, there was a lot of medication and it, 1217 01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:28,420 it did its job and sometimes it just didn't. But there was a two, 1218 01:04:28,420 --> 01:04:33,140 three hour period of time where I would just sit on the couch 1219 01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:37,020 in complete silence. Sometimes I would watch tv, sometimes I would listen to, 1220 01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:41,780 to music. And the, the wine drinking, it wasn't taste anymore. 1221 01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:43,660 The wine drinking didn't work for me. 1222 01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:49,580 And a part of me looking back realizes that I just wanted the bottom to drop out 1223 01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:53,700 for a couple of hours so I could just completely detach. 1224 01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,860 And, uh, that's where some of the, some of the higher, 1225 01:04:56,860 --> 01:05:00,540 harder alcohol was came in. And we'd always have tequila around and, 1226 01:05:00,540 --> 01:05:02,500 and have fun in traditions with that. 1227 01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:06,460 But then there was other options that became available where I could 1228 01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:09,760 actually get some, 1229 01:05:10,060 --> 01:05:14,440 get some drinking going that would affect my mindset and my, 1230 01:05:14,460 --> 01:05:15,720 my body just relax me, 1231 01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:19,500 make me less conscious of what was going on faster. 1232 01:05:20,090 --> 01:05:23,020 That started a pattern that started a pattern of, basically became a, 1233 01:05:23,100 --> 01:05:23,933 a nightly ritual. 1234 01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:27,300 And there was times that Amy needed some help doing certain things. 1235 01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,540 And I became really hyper aware of sounds. So like, 1236 01:05:30,540 --> 01:05:33,820 if there was any rustling or, or changing of sounds coming from the bedroom, 1237 01:05:34,140 --> 01:05:35,740 I was on it right away. 1238 01:05:35,900 --> 01:05:40,140 And I had this kind of back and forth conversation about maybe I 1239 01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:43,740 should be more present and aware. Maybe I should be drinking as much. 1240 01:05:43,740 --> 01:05:47,780 Maybe I should set. Anyways, that conversation was kind of there. But. 1241 01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:49,340 Did she know you were drinking? 1242 01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:52,820 Oh yeah. And I tried to pretend when, there was a couple times when, uh, 1243 01:05:53,220 --> 01:05:57,580 I went into, she wanted to have a conversation. Excuse me. She got up, 1244 01:05:57,700 --> 01:06:01,620 I was putting myself to bed, and she would wanna have a conversation. 1245 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:04,500 She would wake up and she even asked me one time, she goes, 1246 01:06:04,500 --> 01:06:06,220 are you out there drinking? I'm like, no, no, I'm not. 1247 01:06:06,220 --> 01:06:07,820 And of course when someone said, no, no, they're not. 1248 01:06:07,820 --> 01:06:10,340 And they've been drinking a lot, there's nothing they can, you know, 1249 01:06:10,340 --> 01:06:14,260 they can say. But I, I was sure that I was in control of, of the situation. 1250 01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:19,380 And, uh, and I know I wasn't slurring my words, which means that I was so, 1251 01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:22,300 and she was concerned about that. She even wrote about that in her journal. 1252 01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:26,820 She says, I think I turned Jeff into an alcoholic, which she can't. 1253 01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:31,460 But again, bearing the responsibility just based on, uh, personalizing it. 1254 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:34,260 And I do appreciate that on some level, 1255 01:06:34,260 --> 01:06:36,660 that she wanted to take that responsibility. But that was all me. 1256 01:06:37,330 --> 01:06:40,580 That was all me. And just, uh, it just became a, a regular routine. 1257 01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,260 And there was a part of me that, because that's not that I was gonna say, 1258 01:06:43,260 --> 01:06:46,980 it's not my personality, but it's not a choice that I would make for myself. 1259 01:06:47,730 --> 01:06:51,580 It's something that was easy, accessible, and it wasn't, uh, 1260 01:06:51,580 --> 01:06:54,700 it wasn't too hardcore. You know, I can, I'm not doing the hard drugs. 1261 01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,900 I'm not doing anything else. I never found that stuff. It was easily accessible. 1262 01:06:57,900 --> 01:06:59,700 It's socially accessible. Um. 1263 01:06:59,760 --> 01:07:00,820 You didn't steal any of her. 1264 01:07:01,060 --> 01:07:03,820 Medicine? I didn't. And yeah, didn't, even after she passed away, 1265 01:07:03,820 --> 01:07:06,980 which was like, I, there was not, I mean, she had some heavy duty stuff, 1266 01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:08,660 I'm sure. And I was like, Nope. 1267 01:07:08,740 --> 01:07:11,580 I took it back to the doctor once I knew that they weren't gonna need it 1268 01:07:12,450 --> 01:07:17,180 anymore. And they disposed of it properly. But, so yeah, the, the, 1269 01:07:17,180 --> 01:07:20,100 the social acceptance of the, of the alcohol was easy. It was, 1270 01:07:20,100 --> 01:07:21,940 it was easy for me to say, it's okay if I do it a little bit. 1271 01:07:22,320 --> 01:07:26,420 And really thinking that I, it, since I never, I never drank college. I never, 1272 01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,300 you know, I was always focused on, uh, on other things. And, 1273 01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:34,020 and maybe part of it, maybe there's part of me that know, 1274 01:07:34,070 --> 01:07:36,740 knows that knew about the addictive personality, that if, 1275 01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,540 if I enjoy something too much may, maybe I would've. 1276 01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:42,020 So it was better for me not to even experience it, which I never did, 1277 01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:45,260 except for one time when I turned 21. Uh, but yeah, 1278 01:07:45,290 --> 01:07:46,500 that it became a nightly habit. 1279 01:07:46,690 --> 01:07:49,420 Then it started to become a daily habit and not just a nightly habit. 1280 01:07:49,860 --> 01:07:53,660 I remember very vividly sitting on her corner of the couch, wrapped in her, 1281 01:07:53,680 --> 01:07:58,260 her blanket, sobbing into a glass of wine, probably half tears, half wine. Yeah. 1282 01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:02,180 You know, not, not really interested in it, but it was just kind of a habit. 1283 01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,340 But there was a period of time for several weeks, 1284 01:08:05,430 --> 01:08:07,380 maybe even several months afterwards that there, 1285 01:08:07,380 --> 01:08:10,140 that wasn't something that called me at all. Grief. 1286 01:08:10,140 --> 01:08:13,700 Was your addiction during that grief? Was it grief? Was it, which. 1287 01:08:13,700 --> 01:08:16,100 Can be its own addiction as well. Completely. Yeah. 1288 01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,060 If that's an all consuming thing. I. 1289 01:08:18,060 --> 01:08:22,820 Was looking for external, outside ways to, to deal with that grief. Cuz I was, 1290 01:08:23,390 --> 01:08:27,460 again, speaking as far as the, going back to the avoiding stuff. I wanted to, 1291 01:08:28,900 --> 01:08:30,500 I knew it was coming. There was a, 1292 01:08:31,050 --> 01:08:34,140 there's this tsunami of stuff that was coming. So things that were building up. 1293 01:08:34,530 --> 01:08:37,260 Were you left with insane medical bills? 1294 01:08:37,610 --> 01:08:38,860 Fortunately, no. 1295 01:08:39,440 --> 01:08:43,180 The insurance that somehow she got on that we, 1296 01:08:43,290 --> 01:08:46,180 even though the premium started to go up even before she got sick, we kept, 1297 01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:49,860 we kept paying it. We actually had an advocate that deals specifically with, 1298 01:08:50,420 --> 01:08:53,900 I think it's high risk transplant, uh, situations, patients. 1299 01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:59,220 And this person just walked us through the whole procedure about what's 1300 01:08:59,220 --> 01:09:03,660 everything that's covered and the doctors and the hospitals and everything. 1301 01:09:03,660 --> 01:09:05,660 And it was great. It was a godsend. It was a godsend. Yeah. 1302 01:09:05,660 --> 01:09:08,780 We didn't have to have to pay anything at that point. 1303 01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:13,340 So you're starting to pick up your drinking to numb out to escape. 1304 01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,180 Was there an awareness while you were doing it? 1305 01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:19,620 Or was it real detachment in that point? 1306 01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,340 Uh, there was, yes, 1307 01:09:23,340 --> 01:09:26,660 there was an awareness and I didn't want to deal with it at the moment. 1308 01:09:27,250 --> 01:09:29,940 Both things. Yeah, both things. So there was awareness and, 1309 01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,060 and then it started to, um, it started to affect my work. 1310 01:09:33,060 --> 01:09:35,260 It started to show up in my, in my, just my personal life. 1311 01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:39,860 And I know there was friends and family that were concerned. But you, it's, 1312 01:09:39,860 --> 01:09:43,540 it's hard to, uh, I think I, and again, it's, it's interesting how I, how, 1313 01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:47,820 how i, how I balk at, wanted to use this word. But I have to look at it when I, 1314 01:09:47,820 --> 01:09:49,180 if I balked at that. But I, 1315 01:09:49,460 --> 01:09:54,100 I became a manipulator as far as manipulating the situation. And, 1316 01:09:54,160 --> 01:09:58,780 and for me, it, it always, uh, if I'm a happy, positive individual, 1317 01:09:59,010 --> 01:10:02,660 it's okay type of a thing as far as can I kind of quantifying or qualifying, 1318 01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:07,580 you know, uh, how something is good or bad. And of course, that's personal. 1319 01:10:07,580 --> 01:10:10,100 It's, it's all, it's all perception. But regardless, 1320 01:10:10,300 --> 01:10:13,420 I figured out how to manipulate the situation so I can have some wiggle room. 1321 01:10:13,860 --> 01:10:16,300 I heard somebody talking about that with, uh, with their addiction. 1322 01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:19,340 And there was wiggle room and I was trying to survive in that wiggle room. 1323 01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:22,820 So I didn't commit fully, you know, one way or the other. Uh, 1324 01:10:23,000 --> 01:10:27,100 and that wiggle worm is like, uh, the wiggle worm. A room, sorry, 1325 01:10:27,460 --> 01:10:31,900 wiggle worms and ostriches. It's all, yeah, there's. 1326 01:10:31,900 --> 01:10:32,660 A, there's a title for the. 1327 01:10:32,660 --> 01:10:37,660 Show. That's the title. Yes. , that's a great wiggle worm. But I, I, I, 1328 01:10:37,920 --> 01:10:41,420 the wiggle room got smaller and smaller and smaller, 1329 01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:44,500 and that was over years, but it got smaller and smaller and smaller. 1330 01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:49,020 So I had to, I had to choose a path, which I still didn't choose it on my own. 1331 01:10:49,500 --> 01:10:50,700 I left that to somebody else. 1332 01:10:51,440 --> 01:10:52,273 How do you mean? 1333 01:10:52,400 --> 01:10:55,220 Uh, because, uh, probably six, seven months, 1334 01:10:55,340 --> 01:10:57,660 I think seven months after Amy passed away, I had mentioned 1335 01:10:59,450 --> 01:11:02,540 wanting to feel normal and feeling normal for me. 1336 01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:05,180 And I was specifically talking about being able to go out a date, 1337 01:11:05,490 --> 01:11:07,820 take somebody out, feel normal, just to go out, have a meal, 1338 01:11:08,650 --> 01:11:11,260 have some wine in a social environment. 1339 01:11:11,370 --> 01:11:16,140 Outside of anything that I was doing with work. One of my, uh, friends, 1340 01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:21,100 uh, set me up on a blind date with somebody that, that they knew. 1341 01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:27,360 And it was against, I, same thing, you know, I created this, 1342 01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:30,680 this, uh, almost an expectation around it went on the first date. 1343 01:11:31,140 --> 01:11:34,280 She was not looking to date anybody full time. 1344 01:11:34,380 --> 01:11:38,360 It was just to get out and have an experience. And, uh, 1345 01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:41,800 she would allow me to quote her, but she was just looking for, uh, 1346 01:11:41,800 --> 01:11:45,120 dinner and sex two or three times a month, no texting. 1347 01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:48,360 I don't wanna meet the person's parents, leave me alone type of thing. 1348 01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:53,160 That's it all, you know, just satisfy the, what the needs are. And I, that was, 1349 01:11:53,380 --> 01:11:57,160 um, date number one. And then two weeks later we had date number two, 1350 01:11:57,180 --> 01:12:02,000 and then that was it. And when you're talking about game on, it was back to the. 1351 01:12:02,470 --> 01:12:06,600 Same behavior of being all in or you're actively drinking during this time? 1352 01:12:07,020 --> 01:12:09,880 No, no. I was, uh, yeah, socially there was, it was social. 1353 01:12:10,150 --> 01:12:12,960 Okay. But you weren't going crazy or blackout drunk or anything. 1354 01:12:12,990 --> 01:12:15,960 That No, and I never, that was never my MO either. Okay. As far as the, 1355 01:12:16,020 --> 01:12:21,000 you know, the blackout or the, you know, throwing up all the time mm-hmm. 1356 01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:22,040 , it was just, you know, 1357 01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:25,960 I would reach that level of feeling really good. And then. 1358 01:12:26,740 --> 01:12:28,240 It was a numbing device. It was a. 1359 01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:28,600 Numbing device. 1360 01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:33,000 Yeah. Okay. So you end up marrying the blind date woman. 1361 01:12:33,270 --> 01:12:34,360 Yeah, I gotta do it. 1362 01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:36,800 . How long were you dating before you got married? 1363 01:12:37,060 --> 01:12:37,893 It was a year. 1364 01:12:38,060 --> 01:12:39,400 Sheesh man. You moved quick. 1365 01:12:39,470 --> 01:12:41,800 Yeah, I gotta, you know, see what I like . 1366 01:12:42,500 --> 01:12:44,880 And how long did that go? Two. 1367 01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:47,760 Years As far as officially uh, being, being married. 1368 01:12:47,820 --> 01:12:50,120 But I think in the relationship for, for four years. 1369 01:12:50,860 --> 01:12:53,880 Do you think you jumped into that so you didn't really have to deal with all the 1370 01:12:53,880 --> 01:12:55,640 things that were coming at you? Yes. 1371 01:12:56,100 --> 01:12:57,760 And again, I, I didn't want to. 1372 01:12:58,160 --> 01:12:58,993 A new distraction. 1373 01:12:59,220 --> 01:13:00,680 It was a new distraction. I mean, 1374 01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:02,240 we didn't have to go to down the marriage route. 1375 01:13:02,340 --> 01:13:04,720 We could have experienced the things that we wanted to experience without, 1376 01:13:05,100 --> 01:13:09,080 but for me, that was safety. That was a safety as far as the, the intimacy and, 1377 01:13:09,340 --> 01:13:13,240 and also safety in a sense of knowing that possibly some things were gonna catch 1378 01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:16,680 up to me. And, uh, I would have a, um, 1379 01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:20,880 support network built in a completely selfish, completely selfish, 1380 01:13:21,580 --> 01:13:22,413 uh, and yet. 1381 01:13:23,110 --> 01:13:26,160 What was the auger of the end? 1382 01:13:27,020 --> 01:13:30,040 It was, the drinking episode started to become more frequent. 1383 01:13:30,500 --> 01:13:31,640 So you'd started drinking up? 1384 01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:35,080 I started and, uh, 1385 01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:40,400 starting to get desperate and desperate just as far as the financial 1386 01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:43,040 situation. Uh, but also, 1387 01:13:43,580 --> 01:13:47,400 and there was a shift in my mindset after we got married, 1388 01:13:48,420 --> 01:13:52,040 and there's some other people that close to me that had mentioned that as well 1389 01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:54,400 too. I didn't wanna be in that situation. 1390 01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:56,073 Marriage. 1391 01:13:56,980 --> 01:14:01,920 And Yeah. Should have this conversation before it should have after. No, 1392 01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:04,160 that's, and uh, but then, uh, 1393 01:14:04,180 --> 01:14:07,720 the behavior that was spiraling down and. 1394 01:14:07,820 --> 01:14:12,540 Do you think you were drinking more in a way to have her say, Hey, 1395 01:14:12,850 --> 01:14:14,140 there's something wrong here, 1396 01:14:14,140 --> 01:14:16,060 and make her leave instead of the other way around? 1397 01:14:16,260 --> 01:14:17,093 I, I would've, 1398 01:14:17,220 --> 01:14:20,580 would've showed you to the door if you had even suggested that at the time. But, 1399 01:14:20,580 --> 01:14:23,780 uh, a hundred percent mm-hmm. a hundred percent. And it was a, um, 1400 01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:27,260 it was a passive aggressive way. It was a passive aggressive way to, to put the, 1401 01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:29,740 the responsibility on somebody else. Mm-hmm. . 1402 01:14:29,760 --> 01:14:32,300 And then I get to be a victim. Mm-hmm. Susan, you know, 1403 01:14:32,300 --> 01:14:33,500 that's the best way. Mm-hmm. 1404 01:14:33,540 --> 01:14:34,330 . 1405 01:14:34,330 --> 01:14:36,540 Sure. It's just, yeah. It's easier, it's easier that way. 1406 01:14:36,540 --> 01:14:39,740 And I'm joking of course, uh, because it's not, it all comes back. 1407 01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:40,753 It all comes back. 1408 01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,060 And also the second person ever you've ever slept with. 1409 01:14:44,080 --> 01:14:46,940 And the second person. Yeah. I was making, I was getting some notches, you know, 1410 01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:49,540 I'm like, let's, let's do this number two. And. 1411 01:14:49,540 --> 01:14:51,900 You're like, I wanna sleep for this woman, so I'm gonna ask her to marry me. 1412 01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:56,740 And, uh, Susan, I'm, I, I laugh, but Yeah. Yeah. And again, it was a, 1413 01:14:56,740 --> 01:14:58,500 it was a comfort. Maybe there's the fear of being, and. 1414 01:14:58,500 --> 01:15:01,980 There's nothing wrong with wanting to be married in order to have sex. There's, 1415 01:15:01,980 --> 01:15:03,780 you know, there's nothing wrong with that at all. 1416 01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:06,940 But for somebody that has already, you know, 1417 01:15:07,130 --> 01:15:09,420 with the boundary stuff and, 1418 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:14,580 and addiction stuff and just all, all of that around you, 1419 01:15:14,770 --> 01:15:16,060 it's certainly a red flag. 1420 01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:20,060 Uh, completely. Yeah. Completely. And I'm all about green flags these days. 1421 01:15:20,170 --> 01:15:24,900 Yeah. Yeah. That was a red flag. But completely . But, but completely. 1422 01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:25,800 And. 1423 01:15:25,800 --> 01:15:29,180 And I'm sure that she is also bringing her stuff to the table as well. 1424 01:15:29,180 --> 01:15:31,860 We don't need to talk about that, cuz Right. She's not here to, 1425 01:15:31,920 --> 01:15:32,980 to talk about it. Right. 1426 01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:37,620 But there's a lot of red flags throwing around the field . 1427 01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:40,380 And we have, and yes, I'm not gonna speak for, but we have, 1428 01:15:40,530 --> 01:15:43,380 Elizabeth and I have talked about, we've had great conversations now mm-hmm. 1429 01:15:43,420 --> 01:15:46,700 and we've had a, uh, we're we're able to revisit our, 1430 01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:50,420 our relationship and the love that we, we have for each other still. And, 1431 01:15:50,420 --> 01:15:52,500 and just everything we, uh, 1432 01:15:52,600 --> 01:15:55,820 we share and will continue to share and we get to build a completely different 1433 01:15:55,820 --> 01:16:00,780 foundation for friendship that, that, um, is sustainable. Yeah. And. 1434 01:16:01,070 --> 01:16:03,980 Would you say the drinking then created the death Noel? 1435 01:16:03,980 --> 01:16:06,420 Or do you think that it was gonna happen regardless? 1436 01:16:06,790 --> 01:16:09,580 Definitely. The drinking speeded up. 1437 01:16:10,060 --> 01:16:15,020 I had an episode where I knew that it was gonna be a problem 1438 01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:17,900 the next day. Uh, Elizabeth had it to vet that if she was going to, and, 1439 01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:20,220 and I was gonna go there to support her. 1440 01:16:20,360 --> 01:16:24,580 And I didn't make the best choices in the day. And, uh, 1441 01:16:24,580 --> 01:16:28,620 so I was basically sleeping off and I was just drilling on myself in bed for the 1442 01:16:28,620 --> 01:16:33,220 whole night. And she was, she had to operate, she had to be on for her event. 1443 01:16:33,280 --> 01:16:37,820 And she was kind of completely devastated and just concerned and everything. 1444 01:16:38,240 --> 01:16:41,660 She gave me a loving ultimatum the next day, and she gave me three things. 1445 01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:43,420 And she said, I, and she actually, 1446 01:16:43,440 --> 01:16:45,500 we set up a time to talk so we could talk about it. 1447 01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:48,180 And I just knew that everything was gonna be completely different. 1448 01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:50,540 And my wiggle room had, there was none left. 1449 01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:53,860 And she brought up three things and she said, one of 'em was like, I'd like, 1450 01:16:53,860 --> 01:16:57,540 she all suggestions. She said, I'd like for you to go find a therapist to, uh, 1451 01:16:57,620 --> 01:17:01,900 to talk to. And I said, okay. And then the, 1452 01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:05,020 the second one she said, uh, is, uh, 1453 01:17:05,760 --> 01:17:07,420 I'd like for you to go check out a meeting. 1454 01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:11,420 And she actually brought one up that was closed and she said, 1455 01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:14,660 AA meeting an a meeting. Yes. Uh, there's one, there's one here. And she goes, 1456 01:17:14,660 --> 01:17:17,660 just go see if there's something that resonates, uh, with you, which was great. 1457 01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:20,740 And then the third one, she goes, and I need to know what our finances are. 1458 01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:22,900 And of the three, the third one was I, 1459 01:17:22,940 --> 01:17:26,540 I was most terrified about because I was just 1460 01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:29,460 not paying attention to the finances. 1461 01:17:29,860 --> 01:17:32,060 I was just running everything into the ground. I, 1462 01:17:32,220 --> 01:17:35,140 I thought that I had to present a certain lifestyle or else everything would go 1463 01:17:35,140 --> 01:17:38,900 away. Everything was going away already. But I was just scratching, clawing, 1464 01:17:38,900 --> 01:17:39,940 and just trying to, you know, 1465 01:17:39,940 --> 01:17:43,900 I was in desperation mode and I went to a meeting and I didn't identify. 1466 01:17:43,940 --> 01:17:46,100 I just was listening and I wasn't listening with, 1467 01:17:46,370 --> 01:17:47,780 with everything that I had to offer. 1468 01:17:48,440 --> 01:17:50,660 But I did find something that resonated with me. 1469 01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:53,220 And I started to get comfortable toward the end of the meeting. 1470 01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:57,180 Didn't look at anybody, of course, cuz that would be, you know, I don't, 1471 01:17:57,180 --> 01:18:00,100 I don't belong. I'm not supposed to be here. Uh, but it was great. 1472 01:18:00,120 --> 01:18:03,780 And then I was able to have a chance to just kind of think about that experience 1473 01:18:03,780 --> 01:18:06,540 over the weekend and then just started to open that door. 1474 01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:09,300 And did you actively quit drinking at that point? 1475 01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:14,540 Uh, yeah. It was, uh, Thursday, January 18th, 2018. Yeah. That. 1476 01:18:14,540 --> 01:18:16,140 Was, and you've been sober ever since? Uh. 1477 01:18:16,140 --> 01:18:19,220 Sober ever since, yeah. So it's fine. Thank you. Uh, it was, uh, 1478 01:18:19,440 --> 01:18:24,380 it just complete personal transformation that happens with 1479 01:18:24,640 --> 01:18:27,540 active participation and that just goes for anything that I'm, 1480 01:18:27,650 --> 01:18:28,900 that I'm participating in. 1481 01:18:29,240 --> 01:18:31,180 And did did you find Zeke right away? 1482 01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:33,740 Uh, my main man, Zeke, uh, 1483 01:18:33,740 --> 01:18:37,820 he showed up in March cuz that was one of the requirements and was therapy was, 1484 01:18:37,820 --> 01:18:39,500 uh, was to go talk to somebody. And again, 1485 01:18:39,500 --> 01:18:42,620 just to see how it resonates for the most part, once a week ever. 1486 01:18:42,620 --> 01:18:44,980 Since. So that was two of the three requirements. What happened? 1487 01:18:44,980 --> 01:18:47,300 Two of three happened when the finances came rolling out. 1488 01:18:47,810 --> 01:18:51,860 Well, uh, Elizabeth actually said she, she was shocked. A good way. 1489 01:18:51,880 --> 01:18:53,420 You were blowing up your life. I. 1490 01:18:53,420 --> 01:18:56,020 Completely, Susan, I mean, talk about the sabotage. I, 1491 01:18:56,060 --> 01:19:00,660 I put things in place all over if one thing didn't work out the way that I 1492 01:19:00,660 --> 01:19:04,660 wanted to as far as the sabotage something else would have. And again, 1493 01:19:04,660 --> 01:19:07,060 that's just, it's horrifying for me to think about it. But it's the truth. 1494 01:19:07,530 --> 01:19:10,660 It's the truth. And it gives me a chance to, to say, okay, let's, 1495 01:19:10,670 --> 01:19:13,180 let's look at what some of the behaviors are around certain things. 1496 01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:16,540 And as my main man, Zeke says, let me lean into it. , 1497 01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:17,660 let me lean into it. 1498 01:19:17,800 --> 01:19:21,460 And how long after that discussion did you and Elizabeth divorce. 1499 01:19:21,690 --> 01:19:25,340 Finalized? Officially, uh, 2018 in December. 1500 01:19:25,680 --> 01:19:30,340 Do you think some part of you set yourself up for failure with Elizabeth out of 1501 01:19:30,750 --> 01:19:33,740 guilt for not being whatever it was you thought you were supposed to be? 1502 01:19:33,740 --> 01:19:34,560 For Amy? 1503 01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:35,740 I'm sure, I'm sure. 1504 01:19:35,780 --> 01:19:39,220 I actually went through a whole period of feeling guilty about getting involved. 1505 01:19:40,050 --> 01:19:42,660 It's like I almost couldn't win at that at that time. Sure. Uh, 1506 01:19:42,660 --> 01:19:46,020 for myself as far as feeling guilty about moving on whatever the moving on 1507 01:19:46,020 --> 01:19:49,340 means, cuz it's not moving on. It's just continuing my, uh, life. 1508 01:19:49,340 --> 01:19:51,620 It's not linear on, I'm sure. Exactly. Yeah. And, 1509 01:19:51,620 --> 01:19:54,220 but just really being in that moment, uh, 1510 01:19:54,220 --> 01:19:56,780 thinking that something had happened a particular way, a certain way, 1511 01:19:56,800 --> 01:20:00,220 and there was a, you know, it's, there was an exit stage, right. Option. 1512 01:20:00,620 --> 01:20:04,620 . Were your family aware that this was happening? 1513 01:20:04,720 --> 01:20:08,460 Did your sister or your parents say, whoa, Jeff, there's some, 1514 01:20:08,890 --> 01:20:12,540 there's some crazy shit going on around you. Right? No. Nobody said a word. 1515 01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:15,980 No. And it's hard. It's hard, Susan. It's hard. It's hard for people to, 1516 01:20:16,030 --> 01:20:20,900 especially when there's the connection, the love, the family, the, the, 1517 01:20:21,290 --> 01:20:24,980 even my teammates, the friendship. And unless it's hard for them, 1518 01:20:25,530 --> 01:20:28,540 it's hard for people to, to do like an intervention style. 1519 01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:31,660 And also that would not have worked with me until I open the door, 1520 01:20:32,830 --> 01:20:33,860 until I say something. 1521 01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:39,260 And I can remember the first time that I called my mom and said that I went, 1522 01:20:39,260 --> 01:20:43,300 you know, I'm identifying as an alcoholic and I need help. And, uh, 1523 01:20:43,300 --> 01:20:46,140 that was just a completely different world for her because nothing was an issue 1524 01:20:46,140 --> 01:20:49,100 with me. I'm, I'm happy, I'm positive I'm this, I'm rah rah, 1525 01:20:49,100 --> 01:20:53,020 I'm not an alcoholic. And, uh, I don't look like an alcoholic. 1526 01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:56,580 My perception of what an alcoholic is until I went into the rooms the first time 1527 01:20:56,600 --> 01:20:59,820 and stood up and identified and I, I gladly stood up for 30 days and I'm like, 1528 01:20:59,820 --> 01:21:02,500 yeah, my name is Jeff. I'm an alcoholic. You know, 1529 01:21:02,500 --> 01:21:07,180 I'm smiling all the time because it was taking ownership of it, which I don't, 1530 01:21:07,260 --> 01:21:10,380 I didn't, uh, I didn't, I hadn't really done before. Um. 1531 01:21:10,440 --> 01:21:12,260 Oh, and it sounds like it gave you an identity, 1532 01:21:12,940 --> 01:21:17,780 albeit an interesting one for somebody who was struggling their whole 1533 01:21:17,780 --> 01:21:19,780 life to find an identity. Yes. 1534 01:21:20,360 --> 01:21:21,700 And the, and the community. 1535 01:21:22,170 --> 01:21:25,940 Well, this all, now that we are here, here we are today. Yes. 1536 01:21:26,180 --> 01:21:30,300 Whatever day it is. And you are still coaching. 1537 01:21:31,440 --> 01:21:36,020 Yes. I And you have included, in fact now you coach folks with disabilities Yes. 1538 01:21:36,440 --> 01:21:38,900 And you're into bike riding and so you're, 1539 01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:42,860 you're really discovering who and what and why you are, it seems like, 1540 01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:47,060 and you've been going to Zeke forever now, and Yes. And how are you feeling? 1541 01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:50,460 I'm feeling great. I'm feeling great. I, uh, 1542 01:21:50,460 --> 01:21:53,260 my mom would always remind me that I told her when I was really young that I was 1543 01:21:53,260 --> 01:21:57,220 gonna live to a hundred. Oh, that's sounds awesome. So I'm, I I was like, I'm, 1544 01:21:57,220 --> 01:22:00,980 I'm on the, I'm on the side of that now, but I, I, I feel great. 1545 01:22:01,020 --> 01:22:04,900 I feel great physically, I feel great emotionally, spiritually, everything. 1546 01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:07,300 Mm-hmm. the journey for me, uh, 1547 01:22:07,440 --> 01:22:12,420 is finding my voice and that I do have a voice and whatever comes out of my 1548 01:22:12,420 --> 01:22:16,780 mouth, my mouth is great. If it's a wiggle worm, that's perfect. 1549 01:22:18,180 --> 01:22:22,220 I like the idea of a wiggle worm. , uh, 1550 01:22:22,570 --> 01:22:26,980 tell people who might be interested in fencing or whatnot. 1551 01:22:26,980 --> 01:22:28,980 Tell people how they might find you out there in the world. 1552 01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:30,660 The foundation that I'm in, 1553 01:22:30,960 --> 01:22:35,820 the process of starting that offers programs of, of support and, 1554 01:22:35,820 --> 01:22:40,500 and continued sports education is called Amy Fortune 1555 01:22:40,510 --> 01:22:41,343 Foundation. 1556 01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:47,220 And the email to that is amy fortune foundation gmail.com. 1557 01:22:48,250 --> 01:22:49,510 In honor of your late wife. 1558 01:22:49,530 --> 01:22:52,990 Uh, exactly. And, uh, she was a, um, professional musician. 1559 01:22:53,250 --> 01:22:55,470 She was a phenomenal athlete and an equestrian. 1560 01:22:56,730 --> 01:23:01,390 And it's kind of the idea of providing opportunities for parts of a population 1561 01:23:01,390 --> 01:23:04,630 that might not have access to certain activities that 1562 01:23:06,610 --> 01:23:10,340 have, are very beneficial. The, uh, the community aspect of it as well too. 1563 01:23:10,650 --> 01:23:13,860 Yeah. That's great. And fortune is traditional spelling. 1564 01:23:14,290 --> 01:23:17,180 It's traditional spelling. Yeah. And I'll put links on hey. Yeah, yeah. 1565 01:23:17,180 --> 01:23:20,660 I'll give you the, the link, uh, for that. Jeff. Thank you, Susan. Thank you. 1566 01:23:20,660 --> 01:23:25,420 That was great. How do you feel? I, I feel good. Okay, good. I, I feel good. 1567 01:23:25,440 --> 01:23:28,980 I'm ready to, I'm ready to go. Ready to take on the rest of the day. Good. 1568 01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:31,820 Am I sweating? How much am I sweating? I feel it. I'm glistening. 1569 01:23:32,220 --> 01:23:36,340 . You did wonderfully Thank you. And I appreciate it. 1570 01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:38,900 And thank you. Thank you for listening everybody. Bye. 1571 01:23:43,490 --> 01:23:45,300 Rate review and subscribe to Hey, 1572 01:23:45,300 --> 01:23:50,020 human Podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks. Bye.