1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,020 Join us at the hedge for a conversation 2 00:00:02,159 --> 00:00:03,060 about engineering, 3 00:00:03,439 --> 00:00:06,879 technology, and business. This week, Russ White, Denise 4 00:00:06,879 --> 00:00:09,519 Donahue, and Sonia Kuck dig into the sources 5 00:00:09,519 --> 00:00:11,219 of stress in information technology. 6 00:00:22,335 --> 00:00:24,734 Well, good evening, Denise, and hi, Sonia. I 7 00:00:24,734 --> 00:00:26,480 think it's early in the morning for Sonia 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,579 and it's about late night for Denise 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:30,580 kind of strange 10 00:00:32,799 --> 00:00:33,619 so So so Denise 11 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:36,899 I heard you're really stressed today. Is that 12 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:37,940 is that accurate? 13 00:00:40,554 --> 00:00:41,534 Oh, man. 14 00:00:43,114 --> 00:00:45,534 So I heard Sonia was gonna come on 15 00:00:45,594 --> 00:00:47,754 and solve that for you. That's what I 16 00:00:47,754 --> 00:00:48,254 heard. 17 00:00:49,354 --> 00:00:50,894 I appreciate it, right? Thanks. 18 00:00:52,155 --> 00:00:54,299 Now, see that just transferred all the stress 19 00:00:54,299 --> 00:00:56,299 from Denise to Sonia. See how that works? 20 00:00:56,299 --> 00:00:58,879 It did. Yeah, to Sonia, yeah. 21 00:00:59,820 --> 00:01:01,259 I feel like I should find a couch 22 00:01:01,259 --> 00:01:02,559 and go lie down now. 23 00:01:05,979 --> 00:01:07,659 Yeah. Listen, doctor, let me tell you all 24 00:01:07,659 --> 00:01:08,234 my worries. 25 00:01:10,715 --> 00:01:13,034 Listen, you did a really cool presentation actually 26 00:01:13,034 --> 00:01:14,715 at Interop on this, I think. Stress or 27 00:01:14,715 --> 00:01:16,635 burnout or something. Right? And it was really, 28 00:01:16,635 --> 00:01:17,375 really good. 29 00:01:17,674 --> 00:01:19,355 So tell us a little bit about stress 30 00:01:19,355 --> 00:01:21,114 in the workplace and, like, what's going on 31 00:01:21,114 --> 00:01:22,334 there? What are your observations? 32 00:01:23,310 --> 00:01:25,810 Look, it's really interesting looking at it specifically 33 00:01:26,109 --> 00:01:27,890 from an IT industry 34 00:01:28,349 --> 00:01:30,270 perspective. You know, we're hearing a lot more 35 00:01:30,270 --> 00:01:32,370 stories that are visible now about people, 36 00:01:33,469 --> 00:01:34,290 being stressed, 37 00:01:35,230 --> 00:01:37,569 dealing with the impact of burnout 38 00:01:38,025 --> 00:01:40,505 and then even getting into deeper sort of 39 00:01:40,505 --> 00:01:44,505 psychological issues like depression and suicide. And it's 40 00:01:44,505 --> 00:01:46,905 something that when you start talking about it 41 00:01:46,905 --> 00:01:48,765 within our industry specifically, 42 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,780 you realize that so many people identify 43 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:56,280 with these feelings across our industry and you're 44 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,120 not alone, but it's not something historically in 45 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,120 the past we've already talked about. There's a 46 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,120 few things why it's really relevant in our 47 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:02,944 industry response 48 00:02:03,661 --> 00:02:04,161 out 49 00:02:04,878 --> 00:02:05,378 the 50 00:02:06,094 --> 00:02:06,594 door. 51 00:02:07,311 --> 00:02:07,811 We 52 00:02:08,527 --> 00:02:09,027 have 53 00:02:09,743 --> 00:02:10,243 to 54 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:11,460 get 55 00:02:12,176 --> 00:02:12,676 the 56 00:02:13,393 --> 00:02:13,893 project 57 00:02:14,849 --> 00:02:16,930 response out the door. We have to get 58 00:02:16,930 --> 00:02:19,169 the project to go live that night. You 59 00:02:19,169 --> 00:02:21,409 know, we've had to get those systems back 60 00:02:21,409 --> 00:02:23,490 up and running again so they're available. And 61 00:02:23,490 --> 00:02:26,805 so we do these these periods of work 62 00:02:26,805 --> 00:02:27,625 that are 63 00:02:28,004 --> 00:02:30,644 very, very impactful in terms of needing a 64 00:02:30,644 --> 00:02:32,484 full time and attention on them right now 65 00:02:32,484 --> 00:02:34,564 and and causing our stress levels to go 66 00:02:34,564 --> 00:02:36,984 up. But the challenge is that 67 00:02:37,685 --> 00:02:39,094 that seems to be a normal day in 68 00:02:39,094 --> 00:02:39,291 our industry now. It's it's not something that 69 00:02:39,291 --> 00:02:40,025 just happens short term. It's 70 00:02:48,259 --> 00:02:50,419 outage. And what we're finding with burnout is 71 00:02:50,419 --> 00:02:52,120 it's that cumulative burnout. 72 00:02:52,995 --> 00:02:55,474 It's the the long term exposure to those 73 00:02:55,474 --> 00:02:58,034 stresses over time, especially when you look at, 74 00:02:58,034 --> 00:02:59,794 you know, at people like myself that have 75 00:02:59,794 --> 00:03:01,634 been in the industry now for over twenty 76 00:03:01,634 --> 00:03:02,134 years 77 00:03:02,594 --> 00:03:04,375 dealing with these sort of situations. 78 00:03:05,870 --> 00:03:07,889 Yeah. You know, I think it's not only 79 00:03:08,349 --> 00:03:11,489 this project this project this project, but the 80 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:14,030 rate of change in our industry too is 81 00:03:14,030 --> 00:03:15,969 so fast, so intense. 82 00:03:16,669 --> 00:03:17,745 You're having to 83 00:03:18,224 --> 00:03:20,384 to not only learn new technology, but learn 84 00:03:20,384 --> 00:03:21,205 new mindsets 85 00:03:21,584 --> 00:03:22,564 about the technology 86 00:03:23,104 --> 00:03:23,844 in between 87 00:03:24,625 --> 00:03:25,125 getting 88 00:03:26,305 --> 00:03:29,025 that that equipment up and going, in between 89 00:03:29,025 --> 00:03:30,724 troubleshooting that issue, etcetera. 90 00:03:31,069 --> 00:03:32,510 Yeah. I was gonna bring that up too. 91 00:03:32,510 --> 00:03:33,730 I mean, I've been doing 92 00:03:34,590 --> 00:03:36,750 I started doing electronic engineering when I was 93 00:03:36,750 --> 00:03:38,909 a kid kid, and then I did that 94 00:03:38,909 --> 00:03:40,270 for about five or ten years. And I've 95 00:03:40,270 --> 00:03:41,490 been in networks or 96 00:03:42,270 --> 00:03:42,770 networking, 97 00:03:43,504 --> 00:03:44,004 Banyan 98 00:03:44,504 --> 00:03:45,004 Vines 99 00:03:45,504 --> 00:03:48,245 and Nobel NetWare and Lantastic. I admit it. 100 00:03:48,465 --> 00:03:50,805 I admit it for the last thirty years. 101 00:03:50,944 --> 00:03:52,885 And the rate of change is just 102 00:03:53,504 --> 00:03:54,004 incredible. 103 00:03:54,544 --> 00:03:56,784 And the pressure you're talking about, Sonia, is 104 00:03:56,784 --> 00:03:57,925 really bad. I mean, 105 00:03:58,360 --> 00:03:59,159 I know that, 106 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:01,800 I walked into an account. I didn't walk 107 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,239 into an account. A guy called me. I 108 00:04:03,239 --> 00:04:05,900 was on global escalation at the time, and 109 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:08,039 I was the back end person. So when 110 00:04:08,039 --> 00:04:09,800 I worked for this for Cisco, we had 111 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:11,560 a back end person on global escalation and 112 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,944 a front end person. I assume most escalation 113 00:04:14,085 --> 00:04:15,764 teams worked that way. So it was a 114 00:04:15,764 --> 00:04:17,925 person who stayed home and backed up and 115 00:04:17,925 --> 00:04:19,365 did all the back end work that needed 116 00:04:19,365 --> 00:04:21,045 to be done, and then you you flew 117 00:04:21,045 --> 00:04:22,584 somebody on-site as a hostage, 118 00:04:22,964 --> 00:04:23,464 essentially. 119 00:04:25,125 --> 00:04:27,305 Until the problem was fixed. 120 00:04:27,830 --> 00:04:29,689 That's what we always called them hostages. 121 00:04:30,069 --> 00:04:30,569 Anyway, 122 00:04:31,750 --> 00:04:33,750 so I remember this. The hostage called me 123 00:04:33,750 --> 00:04:35,670 one time and he said, They met me 124 00:04:35,670 --> 00:04:37,830 at the train station and they said, 'If 125 00:04:37,830 --> 00:04:39,910 the network goes down again, the entire IT 126 00:04:39,910 --> 00:04:41,050 department is fired.' 127 00:04:41,830 --> 00:04:42,569 No stress. 128 00:04:43,495 --> 00:04:43,995 Wow. 129 00:04:44,295 --> 00:04:46,394 No pressure. Wow. No pressure. 130 00:04:46,774 --> 00:04:47,274 Right? 131 00:04:47,654 --> 00:04:48,475 So that's, 132 00:04:48,855 --> 00:04:51,254 you know, I think that is, it's really 133 00:04:51,254 --> 00:04:52,954 bad the way that we operate 134 00:04:53,735 --> 00:04:56,314 with just having this hangover our heads constantly. 135 00:04:56,750 --> 00:04:58,350 Now now do you think agile has made 136 00:04:58,350 --> 00:04:59,410 it easier or harder? 137 00:05:02,590 --> 00:05:04,350 Look, it's it's a little bit of both 138 00:05:04,350 --> 00:05:06,590 and it's not an area I'm completely familiar 139 00:05:06,590 --> 00:05:08,270 with being more on the IT pro side 140 00:05:08,270 --> 00:05:11,105 than the software development side, but certainly even 141 00:05:11,485 --> 00:05:13,805 in the IT pro world, though the way 142 00:05:13,805 --> 00:05:16,125 that we deploy things that sort of rapid 143 00:05:16,125 --> 00:05:17,665 pace of change now. 144 00:05:18,125 --> 00:05:19,280 Yes, in some respects it does make it 145 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:19,351 easier to recover if if we put a 146 00:05:19,351 --> 00:05:19,904 minor change into production and it breaks 147 00:05:20,365 --> 00:05:20,850 it. 148 00:05:21,810 --> 00:05:23,730 Recover if if we put a minor change 149 00:05:23,730 --> 00:05:25,889 into production and it breaks it's it's easier 150 00:05:25,889 --> 00:05:27,509 than doing a big 151 00:05:27,970 --> 00:05:30,850 update. You know, sort of once every every 152 00:05:30,850 --> 00:05:33,569 quarter or every half year, but it is 153 00:05:33,569 --> 00:05:33,615 that it is does seem to be this 154 00:05:33,615 --> 00:05:34,389 always on mentality that you know that this 155 00:05:34,875 --> 00:05:37,675 seem to be this always on mentality that, 156 00:05:37,675 --> 00:05:40,254 you know, that this we're always spinning plates. 157 00:05:41,035 --> 00:05:43,834 Mhmm. And another thing about no. Go ahead, 158 00:05:43,834 --> 00:05:45,754 Denise. I was gonna say, but then there 159 00:05:45,754 --> 00:05:48,235 are other industries that are equally stressful. I 160 00:05:48,235 --> 00:05:51,050 mean, think of a heart surgeon maybe. I 161 00:05:51,050 --> 00:05:52,810 don't I'm trying to think of of others, 162 00:05:52,810 --> 00:05:55,949 but surely there are police police officers, 163 00:05:56,649 --> 00:05:58,589 fire fire off fire 164 00:05:58,970 --> 00:06:00,410 persons. What do you call it? Fire persons. 165 00:06:00,410 --> 00:06:00,910 Firefighters. 166 00:06:02,089 --> 00:06:04,814 But but But yeah, absolutely. I think I 167 00:06:04,814 --> 00:06:05,314 think 168 00:06:05,854 --> 00:06:07,694 that one of the challenges is that we 169 00:06:07,694 --> 00:06:09,694 don't particularly do well in the IT industry 170 00:06:09,694 --> 00:06:11,534 and I'd love to hear if any organisation 171 00:06:11,534 --> 00:06:12,974 does this better than what I've seen in 172 00:06:12,974 --> 00:06:13,634 the past. 173 00:06:14,414 --> 00:06:16,115 We're not really great at 174 00:06:16,574 --> 00:06:20,089 supporting people who are in the thick of 175 00:06:20,389 --> 00:06:21,610 fighting that fire. 176 00:06:22,149 --> 00:06:24,569 You look at a surgeon who doesn't operate 177 00:06:25,350 --> 00:06:27,449 by himself, you know, they they have 178 00:06:27,990 --> 00:06:30,310 a team of support in the Operating Theatre 179 00:06:30,310 --> 00:06:30,915 but then 180 00:06:31,314 --> 00:06:34,915 hopefully we don't expect them to carry on 181 00:06:34,915 --> 00:06:37,395 and do major surgeries back to back without 182 00:06:37,395 --> 00:06:38,455 a break. And 183 00:06:38,995 --> 00:06:40,754 what I see in the IT industry is 184 00:06:40,754 --> 00:06:42,295 a disconnect between 185 00:06:42,995 --> 00:06:44,675 what we'd like to do and how we'd 186 00:06:44,675 --> 00:06:46,729 like to structure things to make 187 00:06:47,189 --> 00:06:49,430 work more manageable, easier to cope with less 188 00:06:49,430 --> 00:06:49,930 stressful. 189 00:06:50,629 --> 00:06:51,129 And 190 00:06:51,589 --> 00:06:53,750 the support that we get higher up the 191 00:06:53,750 --> 00:06:56,250 food chain, whether it be with staffing resources, 192 00:06:56,789 --> 00:06:59,930 whether or not we actually are structuring resources 193 00:07:00,194 --> 00:07:01,875 so that we have a team or we 194 00:07:01,875 --> 00:07:02,375 have 195 00:07:02,834 --> 00:07:05,555 just as experienced qualified members who are not 196 00:07:05,555 --> 00:07:07,574 on the tools when we're on the tools 197 00:07:07,875 --> 00:07:09,394 so that we can get off the tools 198 00:07:09,394 --> 00:07:10,594 and go and take a break and they 199 00:07:10,594 --> 00:07:11,974 can come in and take over. 200 00:07:12,594 --> 00:07:15,939 I've also got a background in volunteer disaster 201 00:07:15,939 --> 00:07:16,439 response 202 00:07:16,740 --> 00:07:19,139 and that sort of fatigue management and that 203 00:07:19,139 --> 00:07:21,779 that taking over is something that emergency services 204 00:07:21,779 --> 00:07:24,500 do really well and and just doesn't seem 205 00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:26,180 to be a thing as much in our 206 00:07:26,180 --> 00:07:28,814 industry and it usually just comes down to 207 00:07:28,814 --> 00:07:30,894 resourcing. We're only a small team, we can't 208 00:07:30,894 --> 00:07:32,654 afford for half the people that will be 209 00:07:32,654 --> 00:07:34,175 working on this problem and then come in 210 00:07:34,175 --> 00:07:35,074 and take it over. 211 00:07:35,535 --> 00:07:37,214 And then, you know, that's why we end 212 00:07:37,214 --> 00:07:38,654 up with people that have worked three days 213 00:07:38,654 --> 00:07:39,634 without any sleep. 214 00:07:40,095 --> 00:07:40,595 Yeah. 215 00:07:40,990 --> 00:07:42,689 Yeah. I mean, yeah. And most most 216 00:07:43,069 --> 00:07:43,569 shops 217 00:07:44,189 --> 00:07:47,229 are small. I mean, even in large scale 218 00:07:47,229 --> 00:07:49,310 networks, like, you know, you think of a 219 00:07:49,310 --> 00:07:51,870 hyperscaler and you think, oh, a hyperscaler has, 220 00:07:51,870 --> 00:07:54,110 you know, 20 or 30 network engineers. Actually, 221 00:07:54,110 --> 00:07:55,169 most of them don't. 222 00:07:56,115 --> 00:07:57,634 Most of them have four or five really 223 00:07:57,634 --> 00:07:59,235 good network engineers and a bunch of people 224 00:07:59,235 --> 00:08:01,235 who are doing DevOps. And you don't call 225 00:08:01,235 --> 00:08:02,995 the people doing DevOps when there's an outage. 226 00:08:02,995 --> 00:08:04,914 You call the network engineers because you know 227 00:08:04,914 --> 00:08:06,435 they can fix the problem. And there's only 228 00:08:06,435 --> 00:08:07,970 four or five of them. And if one 229 00:08:07,970 --> 00:08:09,370 of those is on vacation or two of 230 00:08:09,370 --> 00:08:10,810 those is on vacation, then you got one 231 00:08:10,810 --> 00:08:12,970 or two people working on it. And then 232 00:08:12,970 --> 00:08:15,050 because it's all customized, there's nobody you can 233 00:08:15,050 --> 00:08:16,730 call. You know, it's up to you to 234 00:08:16,730 --> 00:08:19,050 fix it. So it's just you're you the 235 00:08:19,050 --> 00:08:21,209 buck stops with you and that's it. And 236 00:08:21,209 --> 00:08:22,029 you're done. 237 00:08:22,894 --> 00:08:24,514 And even from a sport perspective, 238 00:08:24,894 --> 00:08:25,394 you 239 00:08:25,694 --> 00:08:27,694 know, dialing into vendor support, I know it 240 00:08:27,694 --> 00:08:28,975 used to be far different, and I think 241 00:08:28,975 --> 00:08:30,915 this actually increases stress as well, 242 00:08:31,295 --> 00:08:33,934 that dialing into vendor support is not as 243 00:08:33,934 --> 00:08:35,695 effective as it used to be. So you 244 00:08:35,695 --> 00:08:37,679 always feel like you are the buck stopper 245 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:39,840 at that point. I think that's a bad 246 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:41,059 that's a bad situation. 247 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:43,679 Yeah. And to a lot of extent, the 248 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,320 IT industry attracts people who have that just 249 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,320 get it done mentality. We are the kind 250 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:50,355 of people who roll up our sleeves and 251 00:08:50,355 --> 00:08:52,355 keep working until the problem is solved. It's 252 00:08:52,355 --> 00:08:52,855 it's 253 00:08:53,154 --> 00:08:55,335 a personal pride and it's a dedication 254 00:08:55,715 --> 00:08:57,794 to, you know, to get the thing working 255 00:08:57,794 --> 00:09:00,115 or get the deadline met. We attract those 256 00:09:00,115 --> 00:09:01,715 sort of people and they're the kind of 257 00:09:01,715 --> 00:09:03,254 traits we look for when we're 258 00:09:03,579 --> 00:09:05,339 we're looking to hire someone into this industry. 259 00:09:05,339 --> 00:09:07,579 You don't want someone who's just gonna walk 260 00:09:07,579 --> 00:09:09,820 away from it, you know, mid crisis and 261 00:09:09,820 --> 00:09:11,259 go it's all too hard. I can't do 262 00:09:11,259 --> 00:09:11,759 this. 263 00:09:12,139 --> 00:09:13,500 And so we we kind of make a 264 00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:15,179 rod for our own back by, 265 00:09:16,059 --> 00:09:18,384 you know, by attracting those kind of people 266 00:09:18,384 --> 00:09:20,704 and then not giving them the the resources 267 00:09:20,704 --> 00:09:23,105 and the support and the culture to know 268 00:09:23,105 --> 00:09:24,865 that it's okay for them to turn around 269 00:09:24,865 --> 00:09:26,625 and say, I need to tap out and 270 00:09:26,625 --> 00:09:28,225 get someone else to come and look at 271 00:09:28,225 --> 00:09:29,519 look at it with these eyes. 272 00:09:30,220 --> 00:09:32,379 Yeah. Yeah. I remember we used to interview 273 00:09:32,379 --> 00:09:34,700 for tech technical assistance center and we would 274 00:09:34,700 --> 00:09:36,139 bring the person in the room and have 275 00:09:36,139 --> 00:09:38,379 three people asking them questions. And then the 276 00:09:38,379 --> 00:09:39,980 phone would ring in the middle of them 277 00:09:39,980 --> 00:09:41,039 answering a question. 278 00:09:41,534 --> 00:09:42,894 And we would hand the phone to them 279 00:09:42,894 --> 00:09:44,334 and they would have to answer the question 280 00:09:44,334 --> 00:09:45,794 of the person on the phone. 281 00:09:46,174 --> 00:09:48,495 And then we expected them to continue on 282 00:09:48,495 --> 00:09:49,875 with the original answer. 283 00:09:50,975 --> 00:09:53,454 Right? It's pretty real life. That was a 284 00:09:53,454 --> 00:09:55,350 real life test. Real life for a technical 285 00:09:55,509 --> 00:09:57,589 assistance center. Right? Yeah. But still, you start 286 00:09:57,589 --> 00:10:00,149 thinking about that, and that's really bad. You 287 00:10:00,149 --> 00:10:02,949 know? That's not good that you have to 288 00:10:02,949 --> 00:10:05,029 live in that environment day to day. That's 289 00:10:05,029 --> 00:10:08,149 a total that's a total burnout situation. That's 290 00:10:08,149 --> 00:10:10,375 that's really good. So how do we fix 291 00:10:10,375 --> 00:10:11,975 it? And how do we alright. Well, I 292 00:10:11,975 --> 00:10:14,615 guess before that, how do we recognize the 293 00:10:14,615 --> 00:10:15,514 signs in 294 00:10:15,894 --> 00:10:16,794 in each other 295 00:10:17,254 --> 00:10:17,735 that they 296 00:10:18,695 --> 00:10:20,855 that our coworkers need a moment, need to 297 00:10:20,855 --> 00:10:22,294 be tapped need to tap out for a 298 00:10:22,294 --> 00:10:24,419 little bit, and provide be able to provide 299 00:10:24,419 --> 00:10:25,240 that to them. 300 00:10:25,779 --> 00:10:26,279 Yeah. 301 00:10:26,980 --> 00:10:28,659 So if you think if you look, if 302 00:10:28,659 --> 00:10:31,079 you're talking about something that is 303 00:10:31,379 --> 00:10:33,940 an an immediate response to something that's going 304 00:10:33,940 --> 00:10:34,440 on, 305 00:10:35,059 --> 00:10:38,554 certainly, it needs somebody maybe one step removed 306 00:10:38,855 --> 00:10:39,355 to 307 00:10:39,894 --> 00:10:42,375 just keep an eye on how many hours 308 00:10:42,375 --> 00:10:44,054 being logged. How long has this person been 309 00:10:44,054 --> 00:10:46,054 working on the thing? Have they had a 310 00:10:46,054 --> 00:10:47,575 break? Did they go home and get some 311 00:10:47,575 --> 00:10:48,075 sleep? 312 00:10:48,774 --> 00:10:51,269 That kind of thing. In terms of longer 313 00:10:51,730 --> 00:10:53,829 term, you start to see signs and symptoms 314 00:10:54,450 --> 00:10:56,549 of maybe people not participating 315 00:10:57,009 --> 00:10:58,690 as much as they would normally and that 316 00:10:58,690 --> 00:11:01,649 could be little things like not responding to 317 00:11:01,649 --> 00:11:03,809 group emails or not being as active and 318 00:11:03,809 --> 00:11:05,695 and chat channels that kind of thing. 319 00:11:06,075 --> 00:11:08,794 Maybe it's little things are starting to make 320 00:11:08,794 --> 00:11:11,195 them snap. They're starting to get irritated about 321 00:11:11,195 --> 00:11:13,674 things that normally wouldn't bother them. And it's 322 00:11:13,674 --> 00:11:15,595 all about really keeping an eye on each 323 00:11:15,595 --> 00:11:17,375 other to detect the changes 324 00:11:18,209 --> 00:11:21,089 in in personality and and behaviour from your 325 00:11:21,089 --> 00:11:23,409 from your colleagues. The other interesting point about 326 00:11:23,409 --> 00:11:24,309 it is that, 327 00:11:25,329 --> 00:11:28,289 we are not just a work being. We 328 00:11:28,289 --> 00:11:30,850 don't just have this person that comes to 329 00:11:30,850 --> 00:11:33,475 work that isn't impacted by everything else that's 330 00:11:33,475 --> 00:11:35,475 going on and see you don't know what's 331 00:11:35,475 --> 00:11:37,175 going on in the lives of your coworkers. 332 00:11:37,235 --> 00:11:39,075 They might be dealing with some other stuff 333 00:11:39,075 --> 00:11:41,555 in the periphery with with family or friends 334 00:11:41,555 --> 00:11:43,154 or whatever and all of those kind of 335 00:11:43,154 --> 00:11:45,394 things can sort of compound as well and 336 00:11:45,394 --> 00:11:46,695 make little work stresses, 337 00:11:47,509 --> 00:11:49,669 make them react in a bigger way than 338 00:11:49,669 --> 00:11:51,990 they normally would. Not purely because of work 339 00:11:51,990 --> 00:11:53,590 stuff because what else is going on in 340 00:11:53,590 --> 00:11:55,669 their life too. So it really is about 341 00:11:55,669 --> 00:11:57,690 watching out for each other and 342 00:11:58,309 --> 00:12:00,309 looking for those changes. In terms of what 343 00:12:00,309 --> 00:12:01,450 we do about it, 344 00:12:01,964 --> 00:12:03,664 It's a really tough one. 345 00:12:06,605 --> 00:12:09,325 I really like the concept of what I 346 00:12:09,325 --> 00:12:11,584 call stomping out superhero statements. 347 00:12:12,445 --> 00:12:14,445 And what that's about is when you hear 348 00:12:14,445 --> 00:12:16,480 someone who turns around and says, oh my 349 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,000 gosh, I've been working on this thing all 350 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,319 night. I haven't had any sleep. Yes, they 351 00:12:20,319 --> 00:12:20,819 deserve 352 00:12:21,759 --> 00:12:24,639 respect and and gratitude for the effort they've 353 00:12:24,639 --> 00:12:26,480 put in. But we need to turn around 354 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,605 and start saying that's terrible. Like what can 355 00:12:29,605 --> 00:12:31,764 we do to stop this from happening again? 356 00:12:31,764 --> 00:12:32,745 What do you need 357 00:12:33,365 --> 00:12:35,865 right now to try and fix that? 358 00:12:36,245 --> 00:12:39,045 And so, yeah, it's about stepping in and 359 00:12:39,045 --> 00:12:41,144 recognizing that those kind of 360 00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:44,399 statements of look at all the activity I've 361 00:12:44,399 --> 00:12:46,240 been doing. I'm so busy are actually a 362 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,639 negative thing. It's it's a cry for help 363 00:12:48,639 --> 00:12:50,080 for a problem that we actually need to 364 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,720 solve as opposed to saying you're amazing. You're 365 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,560 wonderful. Like you have worked so hard, which 366 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:56,399 is true, but we need to follow-up with 367 00:12:56,399 --> 00:12:56,899 that. 368 00:12:57,414 --> 00:12:59,414 How can we prevent this? And the hardest 369 00:12:59,414 --> 00:13:00,855 thing I see in our industry that I 370 00:13:00,855 --> 00:13:02,634 don't have an answer for is 371 00:13:03,335 --> 00:13:06,134 how we drive the importance of this up 372 00:13:06,134 --> 00:13:08,294 the management chain because I had so many 373 00:13:08,294 --> 00:13:10,200 managers that come and talk to me that 374 00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:12,339 say, I really want to support my direct 375 00:13:12,339 --> 00:13:14,019 reports when they come to me about this 376 00:13:14,019 --> 00:13:17,059 stuff. But my manager is saying the work 377 00:13:17,059 --> 00:13:18,820 just needs to be done. I could, we 378 00:13:18,820 --> 00:13:20,980 just have to do this or we don't 379 00:13:20,980 --> 00:13:23,715 have the extra staff. That's the that's the 380 00:13:23,715 --> 00:13:25,394 the nut that we're that we're trying to 381 00:13:25,394 --> 00:13:27,475 crack. I am seeing a few changes in 382 00:13:27,475 --> 00:13:30,134 management in terms of leading by example. 383 00:13:30,674 --> 00:13:32,774 So, actually seeing managers and 384 00:13:33,839 --> 00:13:36,000 like managers up the chain of command coming 385 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,720 in and saying things like I'm taking leave 386 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:39,620 for two days 387 00:13:40,079 --> 00:13:43,279 or I'm not checking my emails outside of 388 00:13:43,279 --> 00:13:45,440 work hours and then actually publicly making a 389 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,500 statement to say I'm modeling behavior 390 00:13:49,384 --> 00:13:50,285 so that my 391 00:13:50,665 --> 00:13:52,745 workers see that we have a culture here 392 00:13:52,745 --> 00:13:54,585 where it's okay to do that. It's okay 393 00:13:54,585 --> 00:13:56,904 to take the work apps off your phone 394 00:13:56,904 --> 00:13:59,065 when you go on vacation. Like, you know, 395 00:13:59,065 --> 00:14:01,225 that kind of support and modeling that good 396 00:14:01,225 --> 00:14:03,225 behavior from management, we need to see more 397 00:14:03,225 --> 00:14:03,884 of that. 398 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,740 I think that's critical. 399 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,600 You're right. To to even have a culture 400 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,080 where you're comfortable going to your manager and 401 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:11,580 saying, 402 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:14,279 hey, I'm overwhelmed or I need I need 403 00:14:14,279 --> 00:14:16,040 a hand here or I need a I 404 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:17,259 need some time off. 405 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,815 Yeah. You're absolutely right. It's it's not hard 406 00:14:19,815 --> 00:14:21,335 to speak up about this stuff. You're not 407 00:14:21,335 --> 00:14:23,654 about to go to the place that puts 408 00:14:23,654 --> 00:14:25,414 money in your bank account every month that 409 00:14:25,414 --> 00:14:26,934 helps pay your mortgage and say, hey. I'm 410 00:14:26,934 --> 00:14:29,095 not doing too great at work here. Yeah. 411 00:14:29,095 --> 00:14:31,414 Exactly. And especially, I think, with the tech 412 00:14:31,414 --> 00:14:33,335 culture. The tech culture, kind of the start 413 00:14:33,335 --> 00:14:34,634 up culture where you 414 00:14:35,039 --> 00:14:36,980 sleep at the office. You know? 415 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,919 First my first visit to Facebook headquarters, they 416 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:42,159 had little rooms with beds, and they gave 417 00:14:42,159 --> 00:14:44,079 you toothbrushes and stuff. I'm like, oh, how 418 00:14:44,079 --> 00:14:46,079 sweet. And the other and the my friend 419 00:14:46,079 --> 00:14:48,284 who was showing me around said, no. That 420 00:14:48,284 --> 00:14:50,764 means they expect us to be spending nights 421 00:14:50,764 --> 00:14:52,065 here getting stuff done. 422 00:14:52,524 --> 00:14:54,125 Yeah. Right. And I was gonna say, I 423 00:14:54,125 --> 00:14:56,044 mean, that is part of the culture. Right? 424 00:14:56,044 --> 00:14:57,884 And I think maybe part of this has 425 00:14:57,884 --> 00:15:00,284 to be a culture change. I mean, I 426 00:15:00,284 --> 00:15:02,384 I don't wanna be, like, negative on certifications 427 00:15:02,605 --> 00:15:03,539 or anything, but 428 00:15:04,019 --> 00:15:06,120 the person who has 14 certifications, 429 00:15:07,699 --> 00:15:09,079 maybe it's time to stop. 430 00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:12,500 Alright, Russ. How about the person who has 431 00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:13,399 14 degrees? 432 00:15:13,779 --> 00:15:15,620 We're not gonna get into that. No. We're 433 00:15:15,620 --> 00:15:17,879 just that discussion. I'm just saying in general, 434 00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:20,475 right, We do live in a culture 435 00:15:21,014 --> 00:15:23,975 in tech where we expect everybody to know 436 00:15:23,975 --> 00:15:26,315 everything, to learn it on their own, 437 00:15:26,774 --> 00:15:27,274 and 438 00:15:27,575 --> 00:15:28,075 to, 439 00:15:28,695 --> 00:15:30,554 you know, we just expect people. 440 00:15:30,950 --> 00:15:33,429 We we I mean, it's beyond expectation. It's 441 00:15:33,429 --> 00:15:35,429 like it's such a big deal to get 442 00:15:35,429 --> 00:15:37,690 that seventh sort of expert level certification 443 00:15:38,070 --> 00:15:39,990 or whatever it is, and we just make 444 00:15:39,990 --> 00:15:41,350 a big deal of it. It's like the 445 00:15:41,350 --> 00:15:43,184 same thing to me of working all night, 446 00:15:43,264 --> 00:15:44,544 and then the person comes in in the 447 00:15:44,544 --> 00:15:46,625 morning and they're congratulated for getting the job 448 00:15:46,625 --> 00:15:48,945 done. Yeah, they got the job done, and 449 00:15:48,945 --> 00:15:51,424 they have killed themselves doing it. And and 450 00:15:51,424 --> 00:15:53,184 maybe we just need to, as a culture, 451 00:15:53,184 --> 00:15:55,585 just step back and say, is this really 452 00:15:55,585 --> 00:15:57,205 healthy? Is this really 453 00:15:57,585 --> 00:15:58,804 what we want 454 00:15:59,399 --> 00:16:01,980 for our lives? I mean, can we model 455 00:16:02,279 --> 00:16:04,459 as Sonya says, can we model something different? 456 00:16:04,519 --> 00:16:05,419 Can we actually 457 00:16:06,039 --> 00:16:07,819 as people figure out say, 458 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,019 you know, it's good to have two certifications 459 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:13,899 or three certifications on your resume and then 460 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:15,134 do something else. 461 00:16:15,695 --> 00:16:17,794 You know? Get a hobby. I don't know. 462 00:16:18,014 --> 00:16:20,415 Whatever it is. But live your life and 463 00:16:20,415 --> 00:16:22,274 and not be so focused on, 464 00:16:24,335 --> 00:16:26,355 it's almost like we're on a treadmill 465 00:16:26,654 --> 00:16:28,174 and all these people are running on this 466 00:16:28,174 --> 00:16:29,519 treadmill and we have four or five people 467 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:30,959 who are running really fast. It makes the 468 00:16:30,959 --> 00:16:31,459 treadmill 469 00:16:31,919 --> 00:16:33,439 run really fast and then we all have 470 00:16:33,439 --> 00:16:35,199 to run faster to catch up. And then 471 00:16:35,199 --> 00:16:36,959 those people who wanna get ahead, they run 472 00:16:36,959 --> 00:16:38,799 faster than everybody else. So we're like in 473 00:16:38,799 --> 00:16:39,620 this continuous 474 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,679 like, oh my gosh, I can't run as 475 00:16:41,679 --> 00:16:43,274 fast as the treadmill, and then we all 476 00:16:43,274 --> 00:16:45,034 fall off the edge of the treadmill and 477 00:16:45,034 --> 00:16:46,334 go, ah. You 478 00:16:46,714 --> 00:16:47,534 know? Right. 479 00:16:48,794 --> 00:16:50,575 That's to Sonia's point. That's 480 00:16:50,954 --> 00:16:54,154 right, and that's the kind of person that 481 00:16:54,154 --> 00:16:55,289 this industry attracts. 482 00:16:55,690 --> 00:16:57,690 It does. I'm that person. You're that person. 483 00:16:57,690 --> 00:16:59,610 Sonia is that person. Yeah. We're all we 484 00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:01,209 all are and they have to find a 485 00:17:01,209 --> 00:17:03,230 way to put that stake in the sand. 486 00:17:04,009 --> 00:17:05,769 It is really hard to stay in your 487 00:17:05,769 --> 00:17:06,429 own lane. 488 00:17:06,730 --> 00:17:07,230 Managing 489 00:17:07,609 --> 00:17:09,924 your stresses and and managing burn out is 490 00:17:09,924 --> 00:17:12,805 different for everybody. And so what I can 491 00:17:12,805 --> 00:17:14,644 cope with in terms of workload or how 492 00:17:14,644 --> 00:17:16,404 many hours I work or how much sleep 493 00:17:16,404 --> 00:17:19,045 I get can be completely different to somebody 494 00:17:19,045 --> 00:17:21,625 else even on the same team as me. 495 00:17:21,684 --> 00:17:24,424 And I think, you know, it's about recognizing 496 00:17:26,330 --> 00:17:27,470 that as an individual, 497 00:17:28,170 --> 00:17:30,650 you know your limits and and you set 498 00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:33,230 your boundaries and you can't expect other people 499 00:17:33,930 --> 00:17:36,090 to to be like you are. If someone 500 00:17:36,090 --> 00:17:36,590 is 501 00:17:36,904 --> 00:17:37,724 a lifelong learner 502 00:17:38,264 --> 00:17:40,904 and you know they're the person that loves 503 00:17:40,904 --> 00:17:44,125 digging into technical stuff outside of ours, maybe 504 00:17:44,345 --> 00:17:46,105 they've got children that have grown up or 505 00:17:46,105 --> 00:17:47,865 they don't have children at all like they 506 00:17:47,865 --> 00:17:49,625 might have a different mindset and be in 507 00:17:49,625 --> 00:17:51,750 a completely different place in their life than 508 00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:54,069 you are that's trying to juggle with a 509 00:17:54,069 --> 00:17:56,149 bunch of projects and you've got young children 510 00:17:56,149 --> 00:17:56,649 or 511 00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:59,669 it really really isn't is an individual thing. 512 00:17:59,669 --> 00:18:01,589 And I think you're right in terms of 513 00:18:01,589 --> 00:18:03,884 us expecting that that there is a bar 514 00:18:03,884 --> 00:18:05,724 that we should all meet. And then in 515 00:18:05,724 --> 00:18:07,265 reality, it doesn't work like 516 00:18:08,204 --> 00:18:09,025 that. Yeah. 517 00:18:09,484 --> 00:18:11,244 Yeah. Really. And and I, you know, go 518 00:18:11,244 --> 00:18:12,924 further. We do it on resumes. We do 519 00:18:12,924 --> 00:18:15,164 it on LinkedIn profiles. We do it on 520 00:18:15,164 --> 00:18:15,664 everything. 521 00:18:16,529 --> 00:18:18,289 And another thing I think that really causes 522 00:18:18,289 --> 00:18:19,650 a lot of stress in our industry that 523 00:18:19,650 --> 00:18:20,930 I don't know how to cut through all 524 00:18:20,930 --> 00:18:22,390 the time is just the hype cycle. 525 00:18:22,850 --> 00:18:24,390 Oh, it's a new product. 526 00:18:24,769 --> 00:18:27,170 I've got to go learn this new product, 527 00:18:27,170 --> 00:18:28,529 and I've gotta do it tomorrow so I 528 00:18:28,529 --> 00:18:30,265 can put it on my resume. And so 529 00:18:30,265 --> 00:18:31,785 that way I'll get a job, and you're 530 00:18:31,785 --> 00:18:32,285 like, 531 00:18:32,825 --> 00:18:35,244 I don't know. Or if you're if you're 532 00:18:36,105 --> 00:18:38,285 like, being as part of the sales organization, 533 00:18:38,345 --> 00:18:40,265 I've gotta go learn this new product because 534 00:18:40,265 --> 00:18:42,105 my customers are gonna be asking about it. 535 00:18:42,105 --> 00:18:43,085 It might be appropriate, 536 00:18:43,529 --> 00:18:45,529 an appropriate fit. And so if I don't 537 00:18:45,529 --> 00:18:46,890 know about it, how am I gonna be 538 00:18:46,890 --> 00:18:47,390 able 539 00:18:47,690 --> 00:18:50,090 to Right. Give them the best solution for 540 00:18:50,090 --> 00:18:50,830 their problem? 541 00:18:51,210 --> 00:18:52,410 Right. We could do we could do a 542 00:18:52,410 --> 00:18:54,809 whole podcast episode just on strategies for keeping 543 00:18:54,809 --> 00:18:56,394 up with the pace of change in this 544 00:18:56,394 --> 00:18:59,595 industry. Yeah. Very true. Yeah. We probably could. 545 00:18:59,595 --> 00:19:00,095 Yeah. 546 00:19:01,035 --> 00:19:01,535 So 547 00:19:01,994 --> 00:19:04,154 we've talked a little bit about how to 548 00:19:04,154 --> 00:19:05,134 recognize it. 549 00:19:06,875 --> 00:19:09,355 What's causing it to some degree? Maybe some 550 00:19:09,355 --> 00:19:09,855 strategies 551 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,299 around dealing with it, just modeling this 552 00:19:13,679 --> 00:19:15,519 and trying to get people to see that 553 00:19:15,519 --> 00:19:17,059 it's an issue. Right? 554 00:19:18,319 --> 00:19:20,419 Do you think I mean, are there measurable 555 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:22,240 mental health things going on here? I mean, 556 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:23,839 are there people looking at this from a 557 00:19:23,839 --> 00:19:27,244 research perspective or is this completely like Sonia 558 00:19:27,305 --> 00:19:28,445 out talking at Interop? 559 00:19:31,305 --> 00:19:32,984 That's a really good question. Look, there is 560 00:19:32,984 --> 00:19:35,005 a bit of research going into this, but, 561 00:19:35,465 --> 00:19:37,545 I love how you kind of brought it 562 00:19:37,545 --> 00:19:39,705 back to facts and figures right because as 563 00:19:39,705 --> 00:19:42,200 people in IT generally it's a big generalization 564 00:19:42,419 --> 00:19:44,740 here. We like things that are tangible and 565 00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:46,119 we like things that are quantifiable. 566 00:19:46,579 --> 00:19:49,140 We like issues that we can diagnose and 567 00:19:49,140 --> 00:19:51,539 get the facts on and and unravel the 568 00:19:51,539 --> 00:19:53,859 problem. And so things like mental health are 569 00:19:53,859 --> 00:19:56,505 a little bit hard for us literally to 570 00:19:56,505 --> 00:19:58,045 wrap our heads around because 571 00:19:58,424 --> 00:20:00,525 there are a lot more sort of touchy 572 00:20:00,664 --> 00:20:01,164 feely 573 00:20:01,625 --> 00:20:03,625 sort of hard to quantify and not quite 574 00:20:03,625 --> 00:20:05,325 as easy to put in a box. 575 00:20:06,025 --> 00:20:10,119 There is a website called mycompass.org.au 576 00:20:10,380 --> 00:20:12,299 and at mycompass.org.au 577 00:20:12,299 --> 00:20:14,779 it's actually a measurement tool for helping you 578 00:20:14,779 --> 00:20:15,279 benchmark 579 00:20:15,740 --> 00:20:17,740 how you're feeling and and and where you 580 00:20:17,740 --> 00:20:19,740 are with your mental health. So you can 581 00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:21,579 go through and answer a series of questions 582 00:20:21,579 --> 00:20:23,659 with a little sliding scale that you can 583 00:20:23,659 --> 00:20:24,045 move. 584 00:20:24,605 --> 00:20:26,125 You can go and do that today and 585 00:20:26,125 --> 00:20:28,144 if you register for a free account 586 00:20:28,684 --> 00:20:30,525 that'll give you like a benchmark that's that's 587 00:20:30,525 --> 00:20:31,025 your 588 00:20:31,404 --> 00:20:33,805 your baseline level as you are today and 589 00:20:33,805 --> 00:20:35,884 then if you are going through some stressful 590 00:20:35,884 --> 00:20:38,384 times or if you do put some strategies 591 00:20:38,445 --> 00:20:40,910 in place like maybe making sure that you 592 00:20:40,910 --> 00:20:43,230 do schedule some time to get out of 593 00:20:43,230 --> 00:20:45,390 the office, go for a walk, do some 594 00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:47,549 exercise, whatever it is that you want to 595 00:20:47,549 --> 00:20:49,309 put a strategy in place to try and, 596 00:20:49,630 --> 00:20:51,494 sort of manage that work life balance, 597 00:20:51,974 --> 00:20:54,535 you can then go and redo that same 598 00:20:54,535 --> 00:20:56,214 assessment see if you've moved the needle. Is 599 00:20:56,214 --> 00:20:58,775 the is your mental health you know improved 600 00:20:58,775 --> 00:21:00,694 or gotten worse since when you did that 601 00:21:00,694 --> 00:21:02,555 baseline? So I love 602 00:21:02,934 --> 00:21:05,015 organisations like that that are trying to give 603 00:21:05,015 --> 00:21:07,009 us a little bit more quantifiable 604 00:21:07,390 --> 00:21:07,890 data 605 00:21:08,190 --> 00:21:09,730 for our own personal use 606 00:21:10,029 --> 00:21:11,630 in terms of where we're at and whether 607 00:21:11,630 --> 00:21:12,990 or not the things that are happening in 608 00:21:12,990 --> 00:21:15,730 our lives are improving that or being detrimental 609 00:21:15,869 --> 00:21:18,289 to it. So what was that website again? 610 00:21:18,590 --> 00:21:21,634 It's called mycompass.org.au. 611 00:21:21,934 --> 00:21:23,634 Mycompass.org.au. 612 00:21:23,775 --> 00:21:25,615 So do you also think that there might 613 00:21:25,615 --> 00:21:28,115 be something in the culture in IT 614 00:21:28,894 --> 00:21:29,394 about, 615 00:21:31,134 --> 00:21:32,275 being people 616 00:21:32,654 --> 00:21:33,475 who are 617 00:21:34,250 --> 00:21:37,389 not kind being seen as somehow 618 00:21:38,169 --> 00:21:41,129 better, smarter than anybody else, and a little 619 00:21:41,129 --> 00:21:43,210 bit of pride in introversion. I mean, I'm 620 00:21:43,210 --> 00:21:45,049 an introvert, so let's, you know, get that 621 00:21:45,049 --> 00:21:47,309 on the table. And almost everybody 622 00:21:47,724 --> 00:21:49,484 I know in the IT industry is an 623 00:21:49,484 --> 00:21:51,804 introvert at one point, of some, you know, 624 00:21:51,804 --> 00:21:53,884 somewhere on that introversion side. Even if you're 625 00:21:53,884 --> 00:21:56,704 pretending to be extrovert introvert, yeah. That's, yeah. 626 00:21:56,764 --> 00:21:58,764 But most people that I know, like, I 627 00:21:58,764 --> 00:22:01,964 mean, I go to conferences, networking conferences, and 628 00:22:01,964 --> 00:22:03,680 by 06:00 at night, I've gotta go back 629 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,480 to my room. I'm done, I'm just done. 630 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,839 Yeah, yeah. It's a recharge, yep. Yeah, it's 631 00:22:09,839 --> 00:22:12,240 just enough. I've had my people quotient for 632 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:12,900 the day. 633 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,559 Thank you very much, yes. Yep, that was 634 00:22:16,559 --> 00:22:19,774 fun, but I'm glad it's over. So anyway 635 00:22:20,315 --> 00:22:21,514 So I mean, do you think that might 636 00:22:21,514 --> 00:22:23,194 play into it as well that we attract 637 00:22:23,194 --> 00:22:25,434 people that not only tend to be introverts, 638 00:22:25,434 --> 00:22:27,034 but there also tends to be like, when 639 00:22:27,034 --> 00:22:28,954 I was at Cisco, we had tough stories. 640 00:22:28,954 --> 00:22:30,714 Right? You know, the guy that you would 641 00:22:30,714 --> 00:22:33,369 email, and they would email you back with 642 00:22:33,369 --> 00:22:34,970 a bunch of cuss words and blah blah 643 00:22:34,970 --> 00:22:36,509 blah blah blah. You know, 644 00:22:37,210 --> 00:22:39,470 there there almost seems like this strange 645 00:22:40,410 --> 00:22:42,509 thing in our culture that 646 00:22:42,809 --> 00:22:45,105 we gravitate towards that in some way. 647 00:22:45,664 --> 00:22:48,144 Yeah, look I I talk about what it's 648 00:22:48,144 --> 00:22:49,924 like working in a team of rock stars 649 00:22:50,144 --> 00:22:52,065 and the thing with rock stars in our 650 00:22:52,065 --> 00:22:54,244 industry is that they make everything look easy. 651 00:22:54,464 --> 00:22:56,384 So when they get up on stage and 652 00:22:56,384 --> 00:22:57,444 they demo something 653 00:22:58,144 --> 00:23:00,005 you don't see the struggle 654 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:02,000 that's gotten to that talk. You don't see 655 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,440 how many hours it took them to put 656 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,839 the demo together. You don't see how long 657 00:23:05,839 --> 00:23:08,400 they invested in learning the new technology or 658 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,079 the problems that they had along the way 659 00:23:10,079 --> 00:23:11,779 as they were trying to figure it out. 660 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,359 And so when you try and do the 661 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,735 thing you go oh my gosh this is 662 00:23:15,735 --> 00:23:17,414 so hard like this is gonna take me 663 00:23:17,414 --> 00:23:19,575 so long. And they just stood up and 664 00:23:19,575 --> 00:23:21,654 demoed it like you know it was something 665 00:23:21,654 --> 00:23:22,235 they do. 666 00:23:22,934 --> 00:23:23,914 They're so amazing. 667 00:23:24,615 --> 00:23:26,695 And I it there's another there's another great 668 00:23:26,695 --> 00:23:28,440 side to that too, which is that there's 669 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:29,740 a book called Quiet 670 00:23:30,599 --> 00:23:33,319 which talks about how a society we've started 671 00:23:33,319 --> 00:23:36,220 to equate being extroverted with being successful. 672 00:23:36,599 --> 00:23:38,359 So we've taught people that if they want 673 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,440 to get ahead in life, they've got to 674 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,599 be these outgoing people. They've got to be 675 00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:45,275 good at networking and social situations. They've got 676 00:23:45,275 --> 00:23:47,674 to be good presenting their ideas in front 677 00:23:47,674 --> 00:23:50,394 of large groups of people. We equate that 678 00:23:50,394 --> 00:23:51,375 public facing 679 00:23:51,674 --> 00:23:53,055 thing with success. 680 00:23:54,154 --> 00:23:56,234 So Quiet is a really great book about 681 00:23:56,234 --> 00:23:59,240 that. I'm also completely an introvert. So I 682 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:00,940 can sit here and chat on Twitter. 683 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,640 I'm doing this podcast recording this morning. I'm 684 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:05,480 going to speak at a user group tonight 685 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,140 and I'm going to be completely done 686 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,119 by the end of it. And I think 687 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:11,480 we need to bring it back to the 688 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:12,220 fact that 689 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:13,420 introverts 690 00:24:15,115 --> 00:24:17,035 being an introvert doesn't mean you can't go 691 00:24:17,035 --> 00:24:18,414 out and do the people things, 692 00:24:18,795 --> 00:24:20,875 but it means that when you are in 693 00:24:20,875 --> 00:24:24,654 those situations your energy battery is being drained. 694 00:24:25,434 --> 00:24:26,954 And so you're right you get to the 695 00:24:26,954 --> 00:24:28,555 end of the day speaking if you are 696 00:24:28,555 --> 00:24:29,535 one of the speakers 697 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:31,680 and you are totally done like you just 698 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,359 need to sit by yourself in a room 699 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:34,820 in a corner and 700 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,660 you can't people anymore. Whereas extrovert 701 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,099 whereas extroverts find the opposite with an extrovert 702 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,500 if they are working solely by themselves. 703 00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:46,634 For example, on a project they might even 704 00:24:46,634 --> 00:24:49,115 be part of a remote team, their energy 705 00:24:49,115 --> 00:24:51,035 battery starts to get drained when they don't 706 00:24:51,035 --> 00:24:53,355 have enough people contact. And so they need 707 00:24:53,355 --> 00:24:55,134 to go out and they need to socialize, 708 00:24:55,275 --> 00:24:57,035 they need to you know to go out 709 00:24:57,035 --> 00:24:58,555 and have lunch with people, they need to 710 00:24:58,555 --> 00:25:00,279 be around people to to fill that battery 711 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:02,680 back up again. And so that's the actual 712 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,400 main definition and you will be surprised the 713 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,279 amount of speakers, well known speakers in our 714 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:08,779 industry 715 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:10,680 that if you talk to them and ask 716 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,359 them which one they are or you ask 717 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:13,420 them what they do 718 00:25:13,734 --> 00:25:15,575 after a conference day, you'll find that we're 719 00:25:15,575 --> 00:25:16,794 really all closet introverts. 720 00:25:17,894 --> 00:25:19,894 Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Most of them are. Yeah. 721 00:25:19,894 --> 00:25:22,214 And so working remote's another interesting thing with 722 00:25:22,214 --> 00:25:24,855 stress. Right? Because the introvert is gonna find 723 00:25:24,855 --> 00:25:27,095 it less stressful perhaps and the extrovert is 724 00:25:27,095 --> 00:25:28,694 gonna find but it also depends on the 725 00:25:28,694 --> 00:25:29,519 work you're doing. 726 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:30,500 Right? 727 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,519 Like, I find that for me, I prefer 728 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:35,119 to go to the office once a month. 729 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:36,640 I work remote. So I go to the 730 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,240 office about once a month. I try to. 731 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:39,920 Well, turns out to be every six weeks 732 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,519 a lot of times. Just be real about 733 00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:44,065 life. And, that seems to work for me. 734 00:25:44,065 --> 00:25:45,444 Even when I wasn't remote, 735 00:25:46,384 --> 00:25:48,224 I actually went to the office one day 736 00:25:48,224 --> 00:25:48,804 a week. 737 00:25:49,664 --> 00:25:51,444 Mhmm. That that was enough. 738 00:25:51,984 --> 00:25:53,904 That's about how often I go. But then 739 00:25:53,904 --> 00:25:56,384 I have customers I meet with too. Yeah. 740 00:25:56,384 --> 00:25:58,579 Yeah. So I mean so I would go 741 00:25:58,579 --> 00:26:00,500 to the office when I didn't work remote. 742 00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:01,720 I wouldn't take my laptop 743 00:26:02,419 --> 00:26:04,339 at all. I would just go in and 744 00:26:04,339 --> 00:26:06,019 meet, and that was the end of it. 745 00:26:06,019 --> 00:26:07,700 And then anything I needed to do my 746 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:09,940 laptop is the next day when I'm back 747 00:26:09,940 --> 00:26:10,599 at home. 748 00:26:10,904 --> 00:26:13,465 And so, you know, I think that people 749 00:26:13,465 --> 00:26:15,305 need to consider that, because I know a 750 00:26:15,305 --> 00:26:16,424 lot of people who just go to the 751 00:26:16,424 --> 00:26:17,884 office every day, you know. 752 00:26:18,184 --> 00:26:20,105 And that's a stress. And that's a stress. 753 00:26:20,105 --> 00:26:20,605 And 754 00:26:21,065 --> 00:26:23,065 maybe it's better to think about that a 755 00:26:23,065 --> 00:26:24,605 little bit as a way to, like, 756 00:26:25,670 --> 00:26:27,450 not be so stressed all the time. 757 00:26:28,309 --> 00:26:31,750 Yeah. It's interesting because we it's getting so 758 00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:34,650 popular in our IT industry now for organizations 759 00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:37,190 to support remote workers and the concept of 760 00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:39,865 remote working where traditionally they may have wanted 761 00:26:39,865 --> 00:26:42,184 to pull everybody in into the office. And 762 00:26:42,184 --> 00:26:44,605 so there now is this this big push 763 00:26:45,144 --> 00:26:47,704 to allow those flexible options which is really 764 00:26:47,704 --> 00:26:50,184 great for for introverts and people who suit 765 00:26:50,184 --> 00:26:51,244 that working style. 766 00:26:51,750 --> 00:26:53,930 Not so great for people who really do 767 00:26:54,230 --> 00:26:56,570 miss the people contact they miss the physical 768 00:26:56,789 --> 00:26:58,970 standing around the water cooler chatting. 769 00:26:59,589 --> 00:27:01,830 I am fortunate that I get enough of 770 00:27:01,830 --> 00:27:03,830 that into kind of interaction for me online. 771 00:27:05,224 --> 00:27:08,105 It's Twitter, Facebook, Slack, our own internal comms 772 00:27:08,105 --> 00:27:10,345 channels those kind of things I'm I'm connected 773 00:27:10,345 --> 00:27:12,025 enough with people all around the world that 774 00:27:12,025 --> 00:27:13,625 I chat with at random times of the 775 00:27:13,625 --> 00:27:16,025 day because time zones and and that's enough 776 00:27:16,025 --> 00:27:17,545 for me for my water cooler, but it 777 00:27:17,545 --> 00:27:18,605 doesn't suit everybody's 778 00:27:19,384 --> 00:27:21,659 style at all. And so that's one of 779 00:27:21,659 --> 00:27:23,019 the things that we're gonna need to look 780 00:27:23,019 --> 00:27:24,720 at is if we are 781 00:27:25,179 --> 00:27:27,919 going to be determined to have a remote 782 00:27:27,980 --> 00:27:30,559 only strategy for a particular team, 783 00:27:31,019 --> 00:27:32,940 you know, how are we supporting the people 784 00:27:32,940 --> 00:27:34,984 that actually do need that FaceTime? When are 785 00:27:34,984 --> 00:27:35,884 we getting together 786 00:27:36,424 --> 00:27:38,345 in person a couple of times a year 787 00:27:38,345 --> 00:27:40,345 at an off-site, for example, to actually bring 788 00:27:40,345 --> 00:27:42,505 people together to to give them that connection? 789 00:27:42,505 --> 00:27:44,984 Or how are those people connecting with other 790 00:27:44,984 --> 00:27:46,045 people in the organisation 791 00:27:46,424 --> 00:27:49,545 or customers or networking groups? How are they 792 00:27:49,545 --> 00:27:52,039 getting that sort of physical people time that 793 00:27:52,039 --> 00:27:53,420 that they need to be happy? 794 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,460 Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Alright. Well, 795 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,759 I think that pretty much covers the topic 796 00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:00,200 for right now. I think we should do 797 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,400 another show on dealing with stress, managing stress 798 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,580 at an individual level. What are you doing? 799 00:28:05,924 --> 00:28:08,325 What am I doing? You know, whoever comes 800 00:28:08,325 --> 00:28:09,845 on to talk about it. How do you 801 00:28:09,845 --> 00:28:11,605 how do you manage this stuff? So, 802 00:28:12,245 --> 00:28:13,924 thanks for coming on, Sonia. You can people 803 00:28:13,924 --> 00:28:15,285 can get a hold of you someplace if 804 00:28:15,285 --> 00:28:16,884 they wanna talk about if they wanna stress 805 00:28:16,884 --> 00:28:18,245 you out by talking if they wanna 806 00:28:20,245 --> 00:28:22,820 You guys Sit on my virtual couch. 807 00:28:27,759 --> 00:28:29,599 So you can find me on Twitter at 808 00:28:29,599 --> 00:28:31,140 soniacuff.com 809 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,519 or I regularly blog technical things on my 810 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:36,275 team blog at itopstalk.com. 811 00:28:36,734 --> 00:28:39,055 Cool. I'm I'm actually just discovered that blog 812 00:28:39,055 --> 00:28:40,914 and I'm gonna follow it now. So Denise, 813 00:28:41,455 --> 00:28:43,295 what are you what are you available at? 814 00:28:43,295 --> 00:28:45,134 Lady Netwker, I think it is on Twitter. 815 00:28:45,134 --> 00:28:47,214 Right? Right. Was it Netwker? I tried to 816 00:28:47,214 --> 00:28:49,134 shorten it so it's spelled n a t 817 00:28:49,134 --> 00:28:50,195 w k r. 818 00:28:50,579 --> 00:28:53,220 Alright. That's cool. And that's, yeah, right now 819 00:28:53,220 --> 00:28:55,159 I'm not I'm not blogging 820 00:28:55,619 --> 00:28:57,539 right now. Well, we're gonna work on it. 821 00:28:57,539 --> 00:28:58,759 We'll fix it. Yes. 822 00:29:00,740 --> 00:29:02,119 Oh, no. Stress. 823 00:29:02,659 --> 00:29:03,960 Stress. That's right. 824 00:29:06,015 --> 00:29:06,515 So 825 00:29:06,894 --> 00:29:08,434 you can always find me at rule11. 826 00:29:08,735 --> 00:29:10,975 Tech and routing at routing geek on Twitter, 827 00:29:10,975 --> 00:29:13,134 but I really don't log on to this 828 00:29:13,134 --> 00:29:15,134 is one of my stress management things. I 829 00:29:15,134 --> 00:29:17,215 don't keep Twitter or anything on my phone 830 00:29:17,215 --> 00:29:18,735 at all. I don't keep work email on 831 00:29:18,735 --> 00:29:20,335 my phone. That's a stress to you because 832 00:29:20,335 --> 00:29:22,230 actually that's a stress relief for me. It's 833 00:29:22,230 --> 00:29:23,769 kinda like chewing bubble gum 834 00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:25,750 for the eye. Like, TV used to be 835 00:29:25,750 --> 00:29:27,190 bubble gum for the eyes. Twitter is like 836 00:29:27,190 --> 00:29:29,109 bubble gum for the mind to me. No. 837 00:29:29,109 --> 00:29:30,230 If I need to do something on my 838 00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:31,910 phone, I just play solitaire or something. I 839 00:29:31,910 --> 00:29:33,289 don't need to talk to people. 840 00:29:35,305 --> 00:29:37,144 So thanks, Sonia, for coming on and talking 841 00:29:37,144 --> 00:29:38,745 about this, and thanks, Denise, for coming on 842 00:29:38,745 --> 00:29:40,265 and talking about this, and, we'll catch you 843 00:29:40,265 --> 00:29:41,485 next time on the head. 844 00:30:03,287 --> 00:30:05,367 Thank you for joining us. You can find 845 00:30:05,367 --> 00:30:07,802 the hedge at rule11.tech.