WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:03.779 - Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:05.219 - where we dig into technology, 3 00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:08.240 - business, and culture with the finest minds in 4 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:09.139 - computer networking. 5 00:00:19.855 --> 00:00:22.574 - Well, hello, Tom. I am very happy to 6 00:00:22.574 --> 00:00:24.494 - see that you have stuff on your whiteboard 7 00:00:24.494 --> 00:00:24.994 - today. 8 00:00:25.949 --> 00:00:28.029 - Yeah. Doing some projects. Working in the real 9 00:00:28.029 --> 00:00:29.949 - world. This isn't, you know, software stuff going 10 00:00:29.949 --> 00:00:30.609 - on here. 11 00:00:32.270 --> 00:00:35.309 - And Audrey, Audrey's doing well. I know that 12 00:00:35.309 --> 00:00:37.009 - Yvonne is sitting there thinking, 13 00:00:37.789 --> 00:00:40.609 - I need to go and fix this plant. 14 00:00:42.134 --> 00:00:44.954 - No. No. No. It's a really good plant. 15 00:00:45.094 --> 00:00:46.475 - I do have a 16 00:00:46.854 --> 00:00:48.954 - new peace lily behind me. 17 00:00:50.215 --> 00:00:52.215 - We we had a freeze earlier this year. 18 00:00:52.215 --> 00:00:54.600 - My different Bachia didn't survive, and so I 19 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:56.920 - now have a start of your peace lily 20 00:00:56.920 --> 00:00:59.159 - back there that is yet to be named, 21 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:01.320 - but, it's thriving. It's been there a few 22 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:03.259 - months and thriving quite well. So 23 00:01:04.119 --> 00:01:05.659 - I'm a decent plant parent. 24 00:01:08.495 --> 00:01:10.515 - And today, we are joined by Mike Bouchong, 25 00:01:10.575 --> 00:01:12.334 - who I believe is in are you at 26 00:01:12.334 --> 00:01:14.814 - home? Mike, are you in California? I am. 27 00:01:14.814 --> 00:01:17.314 - I am. I'm in San Diego, six blocks 28 00:01:17.454 --> 00:01:18.435 - from the water, 29 00:01:19.454 --> 00:01:21.614 - a few hours from the weekend. Do not 30 00:01:21.614 --> 00:01:22.275 - be jelly. 31 00:01:24.520 --> 00:01:26.299 - We will do our best, but no promises. 32 00:01:27.079 --> 00:01:28.060 - Yeah. Exactly. 33 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:28.859 - Yeah. 34 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:32.780 - Yeah. So alright. So we started this conversation 35 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:34.060 - talking about 36 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:37.319 - AI as always because that's, like, the big 37 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:39.500 - topic everybody's really crazy about. 38 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:40.299 - And, 39 00:01:40.814 --> 00:01:42.674 - Yvonne, you were saying you were at KYNOG, 40 00:01:42.734 --> 00:01:44.275 - and what was your impressions 41 00:01:45.135 --> 00:01:45.954 - of KYNOG 42 00:01:46.334 --> 00:01:46.994 - and AI? 43 00:01:47.854 --> 00:01:48.834 - Well, I think 44 00:01:49.694 --> 00:01:52.814 - so, you know, I'm I'm in a world 45 00:01:52.814 --> 00:01:53.924 - as a leader, and I'm a leader of 46 00:01:53.924 --> 00:01:54.689 - infrastructure people at 47 00:02:02.049 --> 00:02:04.530 - most forward thinking AI folks in the world 48 00:02:04.530 --> 00:02:07.105 - are doing. And, you know, we have we 49 00:02:07.105 --> 00:02:07.605 - have, 50 00:02:09.905 --> 00:02:12.625 - managers that are building agents to to do 51 00:02:12.625 --> 00:02:15.264 - forecast and that are you know, so it's 52 00:02:15.264 --> 00:02:15.585 - it's 53 00:02:16.305 --> 00:02:19.050 - we've got a lot of agentic development going 54 00:02:19.210 --> 00:02:21.689 - on and lots of new training going on. 55 00:02:21.689 --> 00:02:22.010 - And so 56 00:02:22.650 --> 00:02:24.090 - and I and I guess what I was 57 00:02:24.090 --> 00:02:25.229 - surprised to see 58 00:02:25.849 --> 00:02:29.050 - is the huge chasm that exists between that 59 00:02:29.050 --> 00:02:29.550 - world 60 00:02:30.169 --> 00:02:32.030 - and what a lot of folks 61 00:02:32.490 --> 00:02:32.990 - in 62 00:02:33.625 --> 00:02:35.724 - enterprise network engineering understand 63 00:02:36.025 --> 00:02:37.084 - AI to be, which 64 00:02:37.465 --> 00:02:38.205 - is basically 65 00:02:38.584 --> 00:02:40.824 - a chatbot and a meme generator. And I 66 00:02:40.824 --> 00:02:41.805 - think there's this 67 00:02:42.584 --> 00:02:44.205 - the way I've said it is the chasm 68 00:02:45.064 --> 00:02:46.745 - is bigger than I've ever seen it in 69 00:02:46.745 --> 00:02:47.485 - my career 70 00:02:47.870 --> 00:02:51.409 - between what is emerging and what the the, 71 00:02:51.629 --> 00:02:54.049 - you know, frontier capabilities are 72 00:02:54.349 --> 00:02:56.849 - and what, like, the rank and file technologists 73 00:02:57.069 --> 00:02:59.229 - understand them to be. And so I'm I 74 00:02:59.229 --> 00:03:00.590 - I I've told a lot of people this. 75 00:03:00.590 --> 00:03:02.189 - I'm still trying to make sense of it. 76 00:03:02.189 --> 00:03:04.004 - Like, I don't have a a coherent 77 00:03:04.705 --> 00:03:07.104 - philosophy or or even thought about it yet, 78 00:03:07.104 --> 00:03:07.664 - but it's, 79 00:03:08.864 --> 00:03:10.004 - the gap is significant. 80 00:03:11.824 --> 00:03:12.324 - Okay. 81 00:03:12.625 --> 00:03:13.125 - And 82 00:03:13.824 --> 00:03:15.985 - I don't know. My my own impression is 83 00:03:15.985 --> 00:03:16.724 - that's true. 84 00:03:17.104 --> 00:03:18.564 - And some of that is 85 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:20.060 - because 86 00:03:20.919 --> 00:03:23.080 - people honestly just don't know what to do 87 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:23.819 - with it yet. 88 00:03:24.199 --> 00:03:26.060 - They're just honestly they're like 89 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:28.699 - and when they try it, by the way, 90 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:30.699 - the times that I've tried it, 91 00:03:31.000 --> 00:03:33.479 - they don't spend enough time learning how to 92 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:34.125 - use it, 93 00:03:34.685 --> 00:03:37.004 - and they get frustrated because it doesn't do 94 00:03:37.004 --> 00:03:38.384 - what they want it to do. 95 00:03:38.844 --> 00:03:41.564 - Like, I I've I've seen this in the 96 00:03:41.564 --> 00:03:42.705 - open source world 97 00:03:43.085 --> 00:03:45.425 - where people will use AI 98 00:03:45.724 --> 00:03:46.865 - to build something, 99 00:03:47.260 --> 00:03:49.020 - and then it doesn't build quite the way 100 00:03:49.020 --> 00:03:51.180 - they like or it's total garbage in all 101 00:03:51.180 --> 00:03:51.680 - honesty. 102 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:53.819 - And then they just say, well, this is 103 00:03:53.819 --> 00:03:55.580 - just like, whatever. Go away. I don't even 104 00:03:55.580 --> 00:03:56.800 - care about that. Okay. 105 00:03:57.099 --> 00:03:59.020 - You know? I'll I'll come back to it 106 00:03:59.020 --> 00:03:59.685 - when it's actually 107 00:04:00.564 --> 00:04:02.645 - real without realizing that there's a much more 108 00:04:02.645 --> 00:04:03.784 - nuanced approach 109 00:04:04.405 --> 00:04:05.465 - to these technologies 110 00:04:06.645 --> 00:04:07.864 - that might be useful. 111 00:04:08.164 --> 00:04:11.044 - So, Tom, any thoughts? I've I've noticed, it 112 00:04:11.125 --> 00:04:13.044 - they they're definitely the minority, but I've noticed 113 00:04:13.044 --> 00:04:15.659 - a couple of infrastructure engineers that have really, 114 00:04:16.220 --> 00:04:18.480 - figured out that they want to 115 00:04:19.100 --> 00:04:21.980 - embrace it and start using, like, it's not 116 00:04:21.980 --> 00:04:24.379 - just, it's not just a chatbot, but but 117 00:04:24.379 --> 00:04:26.480 - that's definitely the the minority 118 00:04:26.860 --> 00:04:28.975 - of network engineers that I know. But but 119 00:04:28.975 --> 00:04:30.014 - there are some of them. 120 00:04:30.814 --> 00:04:32.675 - It feels in some ways like 121 00:04:33.055 --> 00:04:33.555 - like, 122 00:04:34.014 --> 00:04:35.555 - you know, just another tool 123 00:04:35.855 --> 00:04:37.555 - to a lot of engineers, I think. 124 00:04:37.935 --> 00:04:39.134 - And they see it as sort of a 125 00:04:39.134 --> 00:04:40.829 - smart tool, but my old tool works. So 126 00:04:40.829 --> 00:04:42.717 - I'm gonna keep doing it till someone forces 127 00:04:42.717 --> 00:04:44.604 - me. And all we hear in the news, 128 00:04:44.604 --> 00:04:46.491 - it seems like, is mandates for AI. And 129 00:04:46.491 --> 00:04:48.379 - if your company is not doing the mandates, 130 00:04:48.379 --> 00:04:50.266 - they probably will soon. So I'll just wait. 131 00:04:50.266 --> 00:04:52.389 - You know? Seems to be a seems to 132 00:04:52.389 --> 00:04:55.324 - be a one of the sentiments. Interesting. Alright. 133 00:04:55.324 --> 00:04:56.064 - So, Mike, 134 00:04:56.604 --> 00:04:57.104 - finally, 135 00:04:57.485 --> 00:04:58.944 - Mike's been sitting there patiently. 136 00:04:59.564 --> 00:05:02.144 - He's he's itching. He's ready to go. 137 00:05:06.044 --> 00:05:07.024 - So many thoughts. 138 00:05:08.410 --> 00:05:10.750 - So if I look at, like, AI generally, 139 00:05:10.889 --> 00:05:13.150 - it's it's pitched depending on who pitches it. 140 00:05:13.449 --> 00:05:14.910 - Right? It's pitched as a panacea, 141 00:05:15.529 --> 00:05:17.629 - you know, a transformation thing. It's, 142 00:05:18.089 --> 00:05:19.689 - you know, the future. It's the way the 143 00:05:19.689 --> 00:05:21.314 - the next wave of whatever. It can be 144 00:05:21.394 --> 00:05:22.995 - tool to productivity. It could be a tool 145 00:05:22.995 --> 00:05:24.535 - to, you know, massive job loss. 146 00:05:26.115 --> 00:05:28.274 - It's sort of, you know, depending on who 147 00:05:28.274 --> 00:05:30.055 - has the the microphone at the moment. 148 00:05:30.514 --> 00:05:32.035 - It's, you know, whatever you want it to 149 00:05:32.035 --> 00:05:32.355 - be. 150 00:05:33.555 --> 00:05:35.175 - When you look at, like, network engineering, 151 00:05:35.659 --> 00:05:37.979 - it's meant to be, like, maybe it's the 152 00:05:37.979 --> 00:05:38.800 - great equalizer. 153 00:05:39.180 --> 00:05:40.139 - Right? Maybe it's, 154 00:05:40.939 --> 00:05:43.419 - it's gonna, you know, remove the toil from 155 00:05:43.419 --> 00:05:44.079 - the job. 156 00:05:44.539 --> 00:05:46.459 - Right? And so there's expectations that you're, you 157 00:05:46.459 --> 00:05:48.959 - know, wildly more efficient or maybe you get, 158 00:05:49.099 --> 00:05:51.225 - you know, kind of expert level insight that's 159 00:05:51.225 --> 00:05:52.904 - at your fingertips. And so I think when 160 00:05:52.904 --> 00:05:54.665 - people talk about, you know, what's gonna happen, 161 00:05:54.665 --> 00:05:55.165 - it's 162 00:05:55.944 --> 00:05:57.625 - you know, that your expectations are that it 163 00:05:57.625 --> 00:05:58.605 - has to be transformative 164 00:05:58.985 --> 00:06:00.925 - for you to have any experience with it. 165 00:06:00.985 --> 00:06:02.985 - And when your ex when your expectation is 166 00:06:02.985 --> 00:06:04.824 - that it's gonna be transformative and then your 167 00:06:04.824 --> 00:06:06.764 - first contact is that it's, you know, 168 00:06:07.159 --> 00:06:08.060 - a bit mid, 169 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:10.759 - my 14 year old twin boys will be 170 00:06:10.759 --> 00:06:13.099 - happy that I'm working their vernacular into our 171 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:15.560 - the, 172 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:17.879 - then then what happens is you you draw, 173 00:06:17.879 --> 00:06:20.199 - like, an initial conclusion. That conclusion might not 174 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:21.479 - even be right, but I think what it 175 00:06:21.479 --> 00:06:22.964 - does is it sets you down a path. 176 00:06:23.524 --> 00:06:25.144 - I'll give you, like, really easy examples. 177 00:06:25.524 --> 00:06:27.225 - You know, a year and a half ago, 178 00:06:27.245 --> 00:06:29.285 - they or maybe two years ago, you know, 179 00:06:29.285 --> 00:06:30.964 - all of the dialogue was around, you know, 180 00:06:30.964 --> 00:06:33.044 - AI and hallucinations. Well, there was an entire 181 00:06:33.044 --> 00:06:33.944 - wave of people 182 00:06:34.324 --> 00:06:36.665 - who adopted that. You know, they've ignored 183 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:39.399 - follow on, you know, iterations in the space. 184 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:41.399 - And so, you know, what was a problem 185 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:43.000 - then? It's still a problem in some cases, 186 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:44.680 - by the way. But but that problem is 187 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:46.600 - less pronounced today than it was, you know, 188 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:49.019 - maybe two years ago. But because your expectations 189 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:51.419 - were set and then your first experience was 190 00:06:51.479 --> 00:06:52.300 - was thus, 191 00:06:52.764 --> 00:06:54.365 - and therefore, you kind of rewrite it off. 192 00:06:54.365 --> 00:06:55.884 - And so you see waves of people who 193 00:06:55.884 --> 00:06:58.205 - disengage. And and so then when those waves 194 00:06:58.205 --> 00:07:00.205 - eventually, you know, crash on the shore, yeah, 195 00:07:00.205 --> 00:07:01.585 - you've left some people behind. 196 00:07:02.685 --> 00:07:04.685 - Now I'll wrap this up in a in 197 00:07:04.685 --> 00:07:06.639 - a kind of a an interesting p or 198 00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:08.319 - I think it's interesting. I guess I shouldn't 199 00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:09.779 - speak for the audience's 200 00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:10.899 - behalf. But, 201 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:15.120 - so, Lizanne Bainbridge in in the early eighties, 202 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:16.960 - she actually was working in automation, not in 203 00:07:16.960 --> 00:07:18.975 - network automation, but in sort of the more 204 00:07:19.295 --> 00:07:19.875 - generalized automation. 205 00:07:21.615 --> 00:07:23.774 - And she trained she called, a thing that 206 00:07:23.774 --> 00:07:26.334 - the transition paradox. And the idea behind automation 207 00:07:26.334 --> 00:07:26.995 - was that, 208 00:07:28.254 --> 00:07:30.254 - if automation is gonna make you faster, right, 209 00:07:30.254 --> 00:07:31.395 - the the the, 210 00:07:32.014 --> 00:07:33.774 - the the the paradox there is that you 211 00:07:33.774 --> 00:07:35.590 - actually go slower when you first use it 212 00:07:35.590 --> 00:07:37.350 - because it's new methods, it's new tools, you 213 00:07:37.350 --> 00:07:38.790 - have to build things up. And so you 214 00:07:38.790 --> 00:07:40.550 - have an expectation of speed, but you have 215 00:07:40.550 --> 00:07:41.370 - a a realized 216 00:07:42.150 --> 00:07:42.650 - experience 217 00:07:43.029 --> 00:07:44.810 - of of of it being slow. 218 00:07:45.189 --> 00:07:47.210 - It was supposed to, you know, kind of 219 00:07:47.645 --> 00:07:49.165 - save a bunch of money. People were supposed 220 00:07:49.165 --> 00:07:51.165 - to unlock, you know, lots of TCO or 221 00:07:51.165 --> 00:07:52.384 - OPEX or, you know, whatever. 222 00:07:52.845 --> 00:07:54.444 - And then you find out that, you know, 223 00:07:54.444 --> 00:07:55.805 - in the first in the opening, 224 00:07:56.205 --> 00:07:58.145 - you know, days, weeks, months, quarters, 225 00:07:58.525 --> 00:08:00.600 - it actually cost you more. Because you gotta 226 00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:02.040 - do what you were doing before. There's no 227 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:03.479 - savings, but you're doing the new thing next 228 00:08:03.479 --> 00:08:05.160 - to it. So you hire people in. Your 229 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:07.000 - costs go up. And and then finally, you 230 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:08.919 - have this expectation that if it's automated, it's 231 00:08:08.919 --> 00:08:10.680 - gonna be more correct. I'm gonna make fewer 232 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:12.680 - mistakes. I'm gonna drive fault out of the 233 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:14.574 - system. But what you see is because you're 234 00:08:14.574 --> 00:08:16.995 - introducing new tools and methods that you actually 235 00:08:17.134 --> 00:08:18.735 - take things that used to work with their 236 00:08:18.735 --> 00:08:20.415 - mops and sops or whatever, and then all 237 00:08:20.415 --> 00:08:21.935 - of a sudden, you know, through automation, it 238 00:08:21.935 --> 00:08:24.274 - doesn't work as well. And so this transition 239 00:08:24.334 --> 00:08:25.949 - paradox is that all the things that you 240 00:08:25.949 --> 00:08:27.470 - expect, all the value you expect it to 241 00:08:27.470 --> 00:08:29.490 - deliver, it doesn't it doesn't actually deliver. 242 00:08:29.949 --> 00:08:31.310 - Now if you take a workforce and you 243 00:08:31.310 --> 00:08:33.470 - say that that's true across individuals, not just 244 00:08:33.470 --> 00:08:35.009 - companies, and they have these expectations, 245 00:08:35.870 --> 00:08:38.210 - and then when their first experience isn't great, 246 00:08:40.095 --> 00:08:41.615 - you know, then what you see is people 247 00:08:41.615 --> 00:08:43.695 - disengage because none of these things are true. 248 00:08:43.695 --> 00:08:44.975 - For me, the question is not so much 249 00:08:44.975 --> 00:08:46.675 - of how do you get people into AI. 250 00:08:46.815 --> 00:08:49.134 - It's how you correctly set expectations in both 251 00:08:49.134 --> 00:08:50.434 - the short and the long term, 252 00:08:50.815 --> 00:08:52.975 - and then allow people to to tolerate or 253 00:08:52.975 --> 00:08:54.115 - even to lean into 254 00:08:54.570 --> 00:08:56.170 - the transition that they have to go through, 255 00:08:56.170 --> 00:08:57.610 - you know, learning it and applying it in 256 00:08:57.610 --> 00:08:59.129 - different ways and then, you know, sort of 257 00:08:59.129 --> 00:09:00.350 - mastering it over time. 258 00:09:00.809 --> 00:09:02.730 - And so then and then here's my thrilling 259 00:09:02.730 --> 00:09:05.370 - conclusion is now in the AI space, you 260 00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:07.210 - have this wave of people who've gone through 261 00:09:07.210 --> 00:09:10.105 - that mastery. And so they're, like, so far 262 00:09:10.105 --> 00:09:12.264 - ahead of everyone else who kind of had 263 00:09:12.264 --> 00:09:13.245 - the first contact. 264 00:09:13.625 --> 00:09:15.945 - And so to Yvonne's point, like, I there 265 00:09:15.945 --> 00:09:17.625 - there is a chasm, and I would argue 266 00:09:17.625 --> 00:09:19.245 - that it's it's widening. 267 00:09:20.585 --> 00:09:22.345 - And the the interesting thing is that the 268 00:09:22.345 --> 00:09:24.879 - longer this goes, at some point, you're gonna 269 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:27.120 - have an entire generation of people who are 270 00:09:27.120 --> 00:09:29.600 - gonna declare that that gap is too wide 271 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:30.659 - for me to cross, 272 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:33.199 - and so you're gonna strand them. And so 273 00:09:33.199 --> 00:09:34.559 - to me, that this is gonna be the 274 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:37.120 - challenge of our of this generation. It's gonna 275 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:38.559 - be how do you like, do you leave 276 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:39.379 - people behind? 277 00:09:40.934 --> 00:09:43.175 - But we can't hire enough people to to 278 00:09:43.175 --> 00:09:45.014 - to make it work otherwise. And so, like, 279 00:09:45.014 --> 00:09:47.115 - like, that to me, that is the problem. 280 00:09:47.894 --> 00:09:48.394 - Interesting. 281 00:09:48.774 --> 00:09:50.235 - So how does this 282 00:09:50.934 --> 00:09:53.735 - relate to automation? Or because it seems to 283 00:09:53.735 --> 00:09:55.980 - me that networks still aren't automated, 284 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:57.820 - much less AI. 285 00:09:58.440 --> 00:09:59.500 - Like, people 286 00:09:59.959 --> 00:10:02.120 - a lot of networks only, what, 50 or 287 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:04.059 - what what was the latest number? Does anybody 288 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:05.980 - remember the automation? 289 00:10:06.634 --> 00:10:08.875 - If you take the high the the the 290 00:10:08.875 --> 00:10:10.254 - the outliers and the hyperscales, 291 00:10:11.195 --> 00:10:13.274 - most people in data center would put automation, 292 00:10:13.274 --> 00:10:14.815 - you know, somewhere in the mid twenties. 293 00:10:15.674 --> 00:10:18.394 - Yeah. And that's that's Gartner is the most 294 00:10:18.394 --> 00:10:20.235 - bullish, and Gartner would say that, you know, 295 00:10:20.235 --> 00:10:22.809 - two thirds of companies will be or 70% 296 00:10:22.809 --> 00:10:25.149 - of companies will be less than 50% automated 297 00:10:25.769 --> 00:10:27.710 - by, you know, 2027. 298 00:10:28.410 --> 00:10:31.929 - That's see, that's insane. That's just absolutely that's 299 00:10:31.929 --> 00:10:32.429 - insane. 300 00:10:32.809 --> 00:10:34.910 - We should be much more automated. 301 00:10:35.465 --> 00:10:38.425 - And then the other thing that I often 302 00:10:38.425 --> 00:10:40.684 - wonder about is our approach to AI 303 00:10:41.384 --> 00:10:42.285 - and automation 304 00:10:42.825 --> 00:10:44.745 - has been much more you need to go 305 00:10:44.745 --> 00:10:47.085 - build this. And by the way, that's partly 306 00:10:47.225 --> 00:10:48.445 - industry's fault. 307 00:10:49.440 --> 00:10:51.220 - That that is partly the fault 308 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:52.100 - of 309 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:54.019 - vendors and 310 00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:55.860 - standards organizations 311 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.220 - who all want to be the standard 312 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:00.980 - or differentiating 313 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:01.940 - themselves 314 00:11:02.705 --> 00:11:04.804 - so that they can say, 315 00:11:05.184 --> 00:11:05.845 - you know, 316 00:11:06.465 --> 00:11:08.465 - buy me or use me or whatever the 317 00:11:08.465 --> 00:11:10.705 - case might be. Pick me kind of a 318 00:11:10.705 --> 00:11:11.205 - thing. 319 00:11:11.904 --> 00:11:14.384 - That's to some degree, that is true. And 320 00:11:14.384 --> 00:11:15.445 - so there is some 321 00:11:16.225 --> 00:11:17.610 - some sense in which 322 00:11:18.809 --> 00:11:20.589 - when you go into this stuff, 323 00:11:20.889 --> 00:11:22.589 - it feels very sloppy 324 00:11:22.970 --> 00:11:24.829 - to me. Even automation, 325 00:11:25.209 --> 00:11:26.110 - it's very 326 00:11:26.490 --> 00:11:28.089 - I've got to sit down and figure it 327 00:11:28.089 --> 00:11:28.589 - out. 328 00:11:29.129 --> 00:11:31.070 - There's no there's no easy way 329 00:11:31.690 --> 00:11:32.909 - for me to do this 330 00:11:33.464 --> 00:11:35.544 - in in any way or shape, which is 331 00:11:35.544 --> 00:11:37.644 - why the public cloud service versions, 332 00:11:38.345 --> 00:11:39.884 - you know, Grok and 333 00:11:40.904 --> 00:11:43.144 - Copilot and all the others that are run 334 00:11:43.144 --> 00:11:45.704 - out there are so popular in this space, 335 00:11:45.704 --> 00:11:48.264 - and that's why people have that impression. It 336 00:11:48.264 --> 00:11:48.600 - takes 337 00:11:49.159 --> 00:11:51.720 - I I I have a Quincoder as everyone 338 00:11:51.720 --> 00:11:53.959 - who listens to this podcast knows. It's sitting 339 00:11:53.959 --> 00:11:56.120 - right over there. I have a Linux box 340 00:11:56.120 --> 00:11:57.019 - running Quincoder 341 00:11:57.639 --> 00:11:58.379 - on a llama, 342 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:01.000 - and it took me two days just to 343 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:01.500 - get 344 00:12:02.115 --> 00:12:05.014 - Visual Studio code connected to the Quinn server 345 00:12:06.355 --> 00:12:07.875 - so that I could do use it as 346 00:12:07.875 --> 00:12:09.174 - a tool for code reviews. 347 00:12:09.875 --> 00:12:10.375 - Like, 348 00:12:10.835 --> 00:12:13.634 - that's people aren't gonna do that. That's just 349 00:12:13.634 --> 00:12:15.014 - not that's not gonna happen. 350 00:12:16.389 --> 00:12:18.870 - So I don't The analogy that I've that 351 00:12:18.870 --> 00:12:21.529 - I've used, and I think the the industry 352 00:12:22.070 --> 00:12:24.490 - is a little bit too focused 353 00:12:24.790 --> 00:12:25.290 - on 354 00:12:26.230 --> 00:12:28.870 - this moment instead of taking a longer term 355 00:12:28.870 --> 00:12:30.889 - approach. And one of the things that 356 00:12:31.214 --> 00:12:33.454 - that I see in my world anyway is 357 00:12:33.454 --> 00:12:35.134 - that it is a great time to be 358 00:12:35.134 --> 00:12:35.875 - a cowboy. 359 00:12:36.334 --> 00:12:38.654 - Like, it is a great time to be 360 00:12:38.654 --> 00:12:39.394 - the person 361 00:12:39.934 --> 00:12:41.235 - who wants to just 362 00:12:41.934 --> 00:12:44.095 - ride in and play with all the new 363 00:12:44.095 --> 00:12:47.169 - things and try them out and throw stuff 364 00:12:47.169 --> 00:12:49.269 - against the wall and see what sticks. 365 00:12:49.889 --> 00:12:50.709 - And I think 366 00:12:51.250 --> 00:12:54.629 - the the industry in this moment recognizes that. 367 00:12:57.169 --> 00:12:59.250 - But what we're doing is we're also, in 368 00:12:59.250 --> 00:13:01.665 - some ways, devaluing the people who work as 369 00:13:01.665 --> 00:13:02.485 - city planners, 370 00:13:03.184 --> 00:13:05.024 - who go in and take a look at 371 00:13:05.024 --> 00:13:06.485 - everything and go, okay. 372 00:13:07.105 --> 00:13:09.125 - Here's how we build a thing 373 00:13:09.745 --> 00:13:10.565 - that's durable, 374 00:13:10.945 --> 00:13:12.485 - that people can use, 375 00:13:12.889 --> 00:13:14.330 - that where they can get from point a 376 00:13:14.330 --> 00:13:16.490 - to point b. Now granted, when we look 377 00:13:16.490 --> 00:13:18.730 - at AI as an industry, like, we are 378 00:13:18.730 --> 00:13:20.649 - we are Lewis and Clark standing East Of 379 00:13:20.649 --> 00:13:23.529 - The Mississippi looking West. Right? We don't really 380 00:13:23.529 --> 00:13:25.945 - know exactly what's out there. We know it's 381 00:13:25.945 --> 00:13:28.184 - something. We're pretty sure it's got a ton 382 00:13:28.184 --> 00:13:30.424 - of value with it, but, like, there's a 383 00:13:30.424 --> 00:13:33.485 - lot of dangerous stuff between here and there. 384 00:13:33.945 --> 00:13:36.345 - And we need people with the personality type 385 00:13:36.345 --> 00:13:37.769 - that are gonna go explore that. 386 00:13:38.410 --> 00:13:40.570 - But what I'm also seeing is, like, we're 387 00:13:40.570 --> 00:13:42.429 - taking people that are more, 388 00:13:43.050 --> 00:13:43.950 - maybe structured, 389 00:13:44.649 --> 00:13:47.149 - less risk averse, and and 390 00:13:47.529 --> 00:13:50.330 - they're not sure where their place is going 391 00:13:50.330 --> 00:13:51.945 - to be in this new world. I think 392 00:13:51.945 --> 00:13:54.205 - what I would argue is that we're absolutely 393 00:13:54.345 --> 00:13:56.345 - going to need them and need that skill 394 00:13:56.345 --> 00:13:57.644 - set and need that mindset. 395 00:13:58.504 --> 00:14:01.144 - We're just not there yet. And and I 396 00:14:01.144 --> 00:14:01.644 - think, 397 00:14:02.024 --> 00:14:04.925 - like, we're being too shortsighted as an industry 398 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:07.159 - in how we're thinking about that. Because at 399 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:09.639 - some point, you gotta structure some of this 400 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:10.139 - stuff 401 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:12.699 - because, first of all, everybody's not a cowboy. 402 00:14:12.839 --> 00:14:15.159 - And if you put cowboys in shot, in 403 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:17.319 - charge, lots of people get shot in the 404 00:14:17.319 --> 00:14:19.399 - street. And it's it's it's no way to 405 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:20.554 - live. Right? 406 00:14:21.495 --> 00:14:24.774 - So anyway, I probably overdid that analogy, but 407 00:14:24.774 --> 00:14:27.014 - that's kinda how I've been thinking about it. 408 00:14:27.014 --> 00:14:29.335 - No. No. Well, it's interesting because the governance 409 00:14:29.335 --> 00:14:31.014 - piece of this is something that really should 410 00:14:31.014 --> 00:14:33.095 - worry us. Like, I'm sitting here looking at 411 00:14:33.095 --> 00:14:35.230 - this article on Shire on Security, and he's 412 00:14:35.230 --> 00:14:37.490 - talking about a German court ruling 413 00:14:38.029 --> 00:14:41.070 - that Google is liable for its AI searching 414 00:14:41.870 --> 00:14:42.370 - search, 415 00:14:42.990 --> 00:14:43.490 - summaries. 416 00:14:44.590 --> 00:14:46.910 - And we don't think about okay. I use 417 00:14:46.910 --> 00:14:48.129 - an AI tool 418 00:14:48.509 --> 00:14:49.250 - to build, 419 00:14:50.295 --> 00:14:51.995 - to to filter my telemetry. 420 00:14:52.934 --> 00:14:54.934 - And I don't notice that something goes wrong 421 00:14:54.934 --> 00:14:57.035 - because the AI tool doesn't find it. 422 00:14:57.654 --> 00:14:59.335 - And all of a sudden, the network goes 423 00:14:59.335 --> 00:15:00.394 - down and customers 424 00:15:00.774 --> 00:15:02.315 - lose you know, my customers 425 00:15:02.615 --> 00:15:04.019 - lose whatever they lose. 426 00:15:04.820 --> 00:15:06.660 - And everybody wants to point back to the 427 00:15:06.660 --> 00:15:09.059 - AI and say, oh, the tool broke. The 428 00:15:09.059 --> 00:15:11.220 - tool broke. Yeah. But see, that's not gonna 429 00:15:11.220 --> 00:15:13.860 - be acceptable in the business world. That kind 430 00:15:13.860 --> 00:15:16.340 - of governance is not going to be acceptable 431 00:15:16.340 --> 00:15:17.080 - in the business 432 00:15:17.625 --> 00:15:19.165 - world. There's going to have to be 433 00:15:19.545 --> 00:15:20.045 - accountability. 434 00:15:21.144 --> 00:15:23.065 - And this is where you were talking about, 435 00:15:23.065 --> 00:15:24.045 - Mike, about hallucination 436 00:15:24.504 --> 00:15:27.545 - hallucinizations and stuff. That's, I think, where people 437 00:15:27.545 --> 00:15:28.045 - worry 438 00:15:28.504 --> 00:15:29.804 - about that kind of thing. 439 00:15:31.139 --> 00:15:32.419 - I I don't know how to solve it 440 00:15:32.419 --> 00:15:33.240 - though, unfortunately. 441 00:15:35.779 --> 00:15:37.779 - So Do you think, I'm I'm curious, Mike. 442 00:15:37.779 --> 00:15:39.700 - Do you think we're how close are we 443 00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:41.460 - to the point where someone says, okay. We 444 00:15:41.460 --> 00:15:43.320 - can't really be spending all this money, 445 00:15:43.664 --> 00:15:45.504 - and we're gonna have to scale way back. 446 00:15:45.504 --> 00:15:47.825 - Have we have we started to approach that 447 00:15:47.825 --> 00:15:50.164 - yet? Or, where where is that? 448 00:15:51.345 --> 00:15:51.845 - We're 449 00:15:52.304 --> 00:15:54.464 - we're there at at almost every part of 450 00:15:54.464 --> 00:15:56.759 - the of the industry. So if you look 451 00:15:56.759 --> 00:15:57.420 - at news 452 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.000 - even over the last week, right, the the 453 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:01.899 - major hyperscales, 454 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:04.379 - so just to give you some some numbers, 455 00:16:04.920 --> 00:16:05.420 - CapEx 456 00:16:05.800 --> 00:16:06.300 - across, 457 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:08.860 - Google, Microsoft, Meta, 458 00:16:09.634 --> 00:16:10.774 - Amazon, and Oracle 459 00:16:11.154 --> 00:16:12.774 - was, like, 250,000,000,000 460 00:16:12.835 --> 00:16:14.054 - in 2024, 461 00:16:14.434 --> 00:16:16.355 - and it'll be over 750,000,000,000 462 00:16:16.355 --> 00:16:17.014 - this year. 463 00:16:17.715 --> 00:16:20.035 - Like and that's approaching, you know, a trillion 464 00:16:20.035 --> 00:16:22.120 - probably over the next two years. And so 465 00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:23.600 - the question is, is there enough money to 466 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:25.440 - sustain that kind of investment? And that's in, 467 00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:26.800 - like, the ones that probably have the most 468 00:16:26.800 --> 00:16:29.059 - clear path to monetization, by the way. 469 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:31.779 - When you start lumping in, like, an anthropic 470 00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:32.660 - or an OpenAI, 471 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:35.300 - those numbers obviously go up. If you start 472 00:16:35.434 --> 00:16:36.875 - moving down even a little bit from there 473 00:16:36.875 --> 00:16:38.554 - into the NeoCloud space, you know, it goes 474 00:16:38.554 --> 00:16:39.375 - up even further. 475 00:16:39.995 --> 00:16:41.355 - And people are trying to figure out right 476 00:16:41.355 --> 00:16:42.414 - now, how do you monetize? 477 00:16:43.274 --> 00:16:44.654 - If you look at different numbers, 478 00:16:45.034 --> 00:16:47.754 - depending on sort of which week and who 479 00:16:47.754 --> 00:16:49.730 - did the poll, you know, people will tell 480 00:16:49.730 --> 00:16:51.970 - you that that north of 80% of enterprise 481 00:16:51.970 --> 00:16:53.809 - AI projects are failing. Some will say that 482 00:16:53.809 --> 00:16:55.589 - put the failure rate north 90%. 483 00:16:55.970 --> 00:16:57.889 - And so people are this is actually Yvonne's 484 00:16:57.889 --> 00:16:59.970 - comment about the cowboys. People are are and 485 00:16:59.970 --> 00:17:02.070 - this is not just, obviously, network automation. 486 00:17:02.595 --> 00:17:04.214 - This is, you know, sort of the whole 487 00:17:04.355 --> 00:17:06.855 - AI arena. People are are cowboying 488 00:17:07.154 --> 00:17:09.794 - their way through, and not everything is succeeding. 489 00:17:09.794 --> 00:17:11.734 - And then you're seeing companies claw back 490 00:17:12.434 --> 00:17:14.275 - the the the money. And and so I 491 00:17:14.275 --> 00:17:16.740 - think we're we're there now. There will be 492 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:17.960 - expectation of ROI. 493 00:17:18.820 --> 00:17:20.279 - You know, I would say, 494 00:17:20.660 --> 00:17:22.660 - you know, some of it's happened already. Some 495 00:17:22.660 --> 00:17:24.099 - of it will happen, you know, over the 496 00:17:24.099 --> 00:17:26.340 - next, you know, six to twelve months. And 497 00:17:26.340 --> 00:17:27.160 - then I think 498 00:17:27.460 --> 00:17:28.840 - at some point, we're gonna, 499 00:17:30.414 --> 00:17:32.255 - it's uncomfortable to say this. Right? But at 500 00:17:32.255 --> 00:17:34.974 - some point, we're gonna have our pets.com moment 501 00:17:34.974 --> 00:17:37.055 - where we realize that not every AI thing 502 00:17:37.055 --> 00:17:37.555 - was, 503 00:17:38.015 --> 00:17:40.174 - had merit. And it was all, you know, 504 00:17:40.174 --> 00:17:40.674 - exploration. 505 00:17:41.134 --> 00:17:42.654 - It was our Lewis and Clark moment. I 506 00:17:42.654 --> 00:17:44.275 - think it's a good that's a good analogy. 507 00:17:44.815 --> 00:17:46.190 - And And then what you're gonna find is 508 00:17:46.190 --> 00:17:47.170 - that, you know, you didn't 509 00:17:47.869 --> 00:17:49.470 - not every place, you know, West Of The 510 00:17:49.470 --> 00:17:51.950 - Mississippi ended up being, you know, equally inhabited. 511 00:17:51.950 --> 00:17:53.950 - Like, we picked spots that worked and spots 512 00:17:53.950 --> 00:17:55.950 - that didn't, and and that's what's gonna happen. 513 00:17:55.950 --> 00:17:57.722 - And there's gonna be winners and there's gonna 514 00:17:57.722 --> 00:17:59.850 - be losers. The challenge on the cowboy side, 515 00:17:59.850 --> 00:18:01.977 - like, everyone thinks about the cowboys who who 516 00:18:01.977 --> 00:18:04.370 - spot the winners. Right? Those people like, when 517 00:18:04.370 --> 00:18:06.497 - you're there first, right, you make bank. Like, 518 00:18:06.497 --> 00:18:09.156 - that that's amazing. Sort of the the underside 519 00:18:09.156 --> 00:18:11.284 - of that, by the way, is there's gonna 520 00:18:11.284 --> 00:18:13.170 - be people who become the faces of failure. 521 00:18:14.110 --> 00:18:15.789 - And when you're the face of failure like 522 00:18:15.789 --> 00:18:17.230 - that, there's there will there will be a 523 00:18:17.230 --> 00:18:18.210 - cost to that. 524 00:18:18.590 --> 00:18:20.670 - And so and then everybody else, I mean, 525 00:18:20.670 --> 00:18:22.190 - we know that, you know, the unwashed masses, 526 00:18:22.190 --> 00:18:23.470 - what they do is they sit back and 527 00:18:23.470 --> 00:18:24.750 - they watch and they see, you know, who's 528 00:18:24.750 --> 00:18:26.944 - gonna, you know, essentially who's gonna win. They're 529 00:18:26.944 --> 00:18:28.325 - gonna pick sides later. 530 00:18:29.664 --> 00:18:31.105 - And then, you know, the question is what 531 00:18:31.105 --> 00:18:33.505 - what moves those people? But, like, I you 532 00:18:33.505 --> 00:18:34.944 - know, to your to your question, I mean, 533 00:18:34.944 --> 00:18:37.845 - I think you're gonna see expectations of ROI, 534 00:18:38.625 --> 00:18:39.285 - you know, 535 00:18:40.170 --> 00:18:42.110 - nominally this year, next year, 536 00:18:43.610 --> 00:18:45.850 - and that and things like memory pricing and 537 00:18:45.850 --> 00:18:47.769 - whatever. Like, that stuff's just gonna make it 538 00:18:47.769 --> 00:18:49.690 - even more important because it's I mean, this 539 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:51.529 - is it's not even like this is, like, 540 00:18:51.529 --> 00:18:54.090 - a a relatively cheap investment. Like, it's free 541 00:18:54.090 --> 00:18:56.214 - to go and part and and, explore. 542 00:18:56.835 --> 00:18:58.115 - You know, like, at least for the Lewis 543 00:18:58.115 --> 00:19:00.115 - and Clark angle, like, you can like, if 544 00:19:00.115 --> 00:19:01.555 - you wanted to go and forge a a 545 00:19:01.555 --> 00:19:02.835 - path, it was kind of that's up to 546 00:19:02.835 --> 00:19:04.535 - you. Like, you could you raise the 547 00:19:04.994 --> 00:19:06.515 - you get your stuff and you take the 548 00:19:06.515 --> 00:19:07.015 - risk. 549 00:19:07.315 --> 00:19:09.160 - You know, in this world, it's like, I 550 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:11.319 - don't think that people are going alone anymore, 551 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:13.319 - and and it's not just their risk to 552 00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:15.640 - bear. That means the consequences are gonna be 553 00:19:15.640 --> 00:19:17.240 - higher, which means the scrutiny is gonna be 554 00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:19.480 - higher. So Yeah. You know, keep your eyes 555 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:22.619 - open that way. Particularly in the infrastructure space 556 00:19:23.144 --> 00:19:24.605 - where you do something 557 00:19:25.545 --> 00:19:27.404 - and you actually can impact 558 00:19:28.184 --> 00:19:29.965 - a lot of people very quickly 559 00:19:31.065 --> 00:19:32.825 - regardless of whether or not that was your 560 00:19:32.825 --> 00:19:35.244 - intent. It's much harder to firewall off. 561 00:19:35.545 --> 00:19:38.070 - Like, the Lewis and Clark thing, that's great. 562 00:19:38.070 --> 00:19:40.070 - You know, I have this little team. My 563 00:19:40.070 --> 00:19:41.910 - team is at risk. They go out and 564 00:19:41.910 --> 00:19:43.910 - they do their thing. It's kind of like 565 00:19:43.910 --> 00:19:45.990 - they're firewalled off from culture. If they would 566 00:19:45.990 --> 00:19:46.650 - have failed, 567 00:19:47.029 --> 00:19:49.990 - well, you know, they failed. Right? Somebody tries 568 00:19:49.990 --> 00:19:50.654 - again later, 569 00:19:51.215 --> 00:19:52.914 - and they learn from that failure. 570 00:19:53.455 --> 00:19:54.355 - No. When you 571 00:19:54.894 --> 00:19:55.394 - accidentally 572 00:19:55.775 --> 00:19:57.234 - take a network down 573 00:19:59.295 --> 00:20:00.994 - because you are Lewis and Clark, 574 00:20:01.535 --> 00:20:02.035 - like, 575 00:20:02.335 --> 00:20:04.595 - no. Things get real, real fast. 576 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:06.200 - And that's that's 577 00:20:06.600 --> 00:20:09.240 - there's there's a lot of I can understand 578 00:20:09.240 --> 00:20:09.900 - the hesitance 579 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:11.420 - in that space. 580 00:20:11.960 --> 00:20:14.359 - So The the the bad news stories, though, 581 00:20:14.359 --> 00:20:16.200 - just I mean, they're gonna travel fast and 582 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:17.420 - far. Yeah. 583 00:20:17.755 --> 00:20:19.835 - Exactly. Happens, what that's gonna do is create 584 00:20:19.835 --> 00:20:21.835 - a chilling effect. So if I'm on the 585 00:20:21.835 --> 00:20:24.394 - sidelines, maybe I'm skeptical. Maybe I'm just maybe 586 00:20:24.394 --> 00:20:25.615 - I just don't know enough. 587 00:20:26.075 --> 00:20:27.595 - And then I see a data point that 588 00:20:27.595 --> 00:20:29.674 - supports me staying on the sidelines. Like, what 589 00:20:29.674 --> 00:20:31.214 - it does is it just in it entrenches 590 00:20:31.275 --> 00:20:33.509 - my position. I'm gonna wait until there's, like, 591 00:20:33.670 --> 00:20:35.990 - success. And I don't it's not enough for 592 00:20:35.990 --> 00:20:37.670 - someone to have some success. It has to 593 00:20:37.670 --> 00:20:39.930 - be, you know, breakthrough success. Meaning, 594 00:20:40.630 --> 00:20:42.730 - it's, like, repeatable in some way. 595 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:45.269 - Yeah. Yeah. And so how do you like, 596 00:20:45.269 --> 00:20:47.565 - how do these things become repeatable? Like, that 597 00:20:47.565 --> 00:20:49.244 - that part I mean, that's an interesting question. 598 00:20:49.244 --> 00:20:51.325 - Like, what what what constitutes or what are 599 00:20:51.325 --> 00:20:52.065 - the properties 600 00:20:52.444 --> 00:20:54.524 - that would make something repeatable at an at 601 00:20:54.524 --> 00:20:56.845 - an industry or even, like, a a vertical 602 00:20:56.845 --> 00:20:58.924 - level within just peers? Like, to me, that 603 00:20:58.924 --> 00:21:00.605 - part, I actually don't know the answer to 604 00:21:00.605 --> 00:21:01.085 - that. I mean, I 605 00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:03.980 - but that's what people are gonna be looking 606 00:21:03.980 --> 00:21:04.559 - for. And 607 00:21:05.099 --> 00:21:05.953 - I'm telling you, if if things are failing 608 00:21:05.953 --> 00:21:07.740 - in a 80 or 90% clip, what you're 609 00:21:07.740 --> 00:21:09.039 - gonna see is more stories. 610 00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:11.579 - And and then the dangerous and and maybe 611 00:21:11.579 --> 00:21:13.039 - the the the, you know, the 612 00:21:13.420 --> 00:21:15.984 - uncomfortable truth is that we can't let even 613 00:21:15.984 --> 00:21:18.644 - if if like, 90% failure is probably normal. 614 00:21:19.505 --> 00:21:21.904 - Yeah. Yeah. And that can't stop you from 615 00:21:21.904 --> 00:21:23.904 - breaking forward. Because if you do, then then 616 00:21:23.904 --> 00:21:26.144 - the whole industry stopped. And then and then 617 00:21:26.144 --> 00:21:27.984 - if if somebody else makes it and you 618 00:21:27.984 --> 00:21:28.484 - don't 619 00:21:29.289 --> 00:21:31.210 - Mhmm. Then you're you're at a disadvantage. Your 620 00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:32.970 - company's at a disadvantage. You know, your your 621 00:21:32.970 --> 00:21:35.130 - network is at a disadvantage. Your career is 622 00:21:35.130 --> 00:21:36.829 - at a disadvantage. And so, 623 00:21:37.289 --> 00:21:39.390 - like, you you we have to pay attention. 624 00:21:39.769 --> 00:21:41.309 - I I do think it's high stakes. 625 00:21:42.394 --> 00:21:43.754 - But but I don't think you can I 626 00:21:43.754 --> 00:21:44.815 - I think not participating 627 00:21:45.115 --> 00:21:46.414 - is is challenging? 628 00:21:47.194 --> 00:21:49.034 - So yeah. So I was thinking of an 629 00:21:49.034 --> 00:21:50.335 - example about automation 630 00:21:50.875 --> 00:21:52.494 - being the same sort of a thing. 631 00:21:52.875 --> 00:21:55.855 - When Facebook had that big outage 632 00:21:56.315 --> 00:21:58.240 - that caused them to go down for several 633 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.259 - days or hours or whatever it was. 634 00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:03.220 - Everyone knows about that outage, 635 00:22:03.599 --> 00:22:05.519 - and they know that it was automation or, 636 00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:07.539 - you know, related, that there was an automation 637 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:08.099 - problem. 638 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.234 - But instead of taking away the lesson of, 639 00:22:11.775 --> 00:22:13.855 - well, this is why you build the system 640 00:22:13.855 --> 00:22:15.714 - to have failure domains, 641 00:22:16.575 --> 00:22:18.894 - and you build the system so that one 642 00:22:18.894 --> 00:22:20.994 - failure can't leak into other domains 643 00:22:21.609 --> 00:22:23.869 - with firewalls in the system, stuff like that. 644 00:22:24.329 --> 00:22:26.829 - The the takeaway was, well, automation is dangerous. 645 00:22:27.849 --> 00:22:30.250 - And I think that that kind of thing 646 00:22:30.250 --> 00:22:31.950 - is actually slowed down, 647 00:22:32.250 --> 00:22:34.190 - and the same thing is gonna be true 648 00:22:34.569 --> 00:22:37.394 - for AI. Right? Every time there's a failure. 649 00:22:37.394 --> 00:22:38.914 - And the flip side of that is you're 650 00:22:38.914 --> 00:22:40.375 - like, well, how does it become repeatable? 651 00:22:40.755 --> 00:22:42.994 - Part of the problem to me is that 652 00:22:42.994 --> 00:22:45.174 - if you're a company who's made it succeed, 653 00:22:46.034 --> 00:22:48.595 - you have zero interest in telling anyone about 654 00:22:48.595 --> 00:22:49.095 - it. 655 00:22:49.634 --> 00:22:49.859 - Right. 656 00:22:51.220 --> 00:22:52.740 - Yeah. I was just thinking about that. The 657 00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:54.980 - the breakthrough successes are pretty easy for everybody 658 00:22:54.980 --> 00:22:55.960 - to talk about, but, 659 00:22:56.500 --> 00:22:58.759 - I I think it's probably the small 660 00:22:59.460 --> 00:23:01.880 - small efficiency gains that add up over time 661 00:23:02.099 --> 00:23:04.099 - that really is the value of the whole 662 00:23:04.099 --> 00:23:06.234 - thing anyway and that's just not a newsworthy 663 00:23:06.234 --> 00:23:07.174 - thing. Like 664 00:23:07.554 --> 00:23:08.994 - I, you know, in my work yesterday I 665 00:23:08.994 --> 00:23:10.835 - was I was having this moment where I 666 00:23:10.835 --> 00:23:13.234 - was I I was waiting for the for 667 00:23:13.234 --> 00:23:14.914 - the l m to do some stuff. I 668 00:23:14.914 --> 00:23:16.115 - I I could tell it was gonna take 669 00:23:16.115 --> 00:23:17.554 - it like, I don't know, a minute, two 670 00:23:17.554 --> 00:23:18.694 - minutes and I was like, 671 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:20.240 - I can go up and get a drink 672 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.559 - or something, but I can't really like go 673 00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:23.940 - fishing or whatever. 674 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:27.039 - And so and I started thinking about what 675 00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:29.359 - what about context switches? Can I use this 676 00:23:29.359 --> 00:23:32.000 - time somehow? Just a little very microcosm, you 677 00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:33.805 - know, of what we're talking about. But but 678 00:23:33.805 --> 00:23:35.644 - I did not have to be engaged the 679 00:23:35.644 --> 00:23:36.945 - same way I was before. 680 00:23:37.404 --> 00:23:39.244 - And I think I don't know. I I 681 00:23:39.244 --> 00:23:41.085 - I think that'll be there'll be small wins 682 00:23:41.085 --> 00:23:43.484 - that nobody really is incentivized to talk about 683 00:23:43.484 --> 00:23:43.984 - and, 684 00:23:44.684 --> 00:23:46.605 - the people who are waiting on the sidelines 685 00:23:46.605 --> 00:23:48.384 - just aren't ever gonna see that. 686 00:23:48.849 --> 00:23:51.169 - Even even the breakthroughs though, Tom. Right? If 687 00:23:51.169 --> 00:23:52.309 - you're in a company 688 00:23:52.769 --> 00:23:54.230 - that suddenly gains 689 00:23:55.009 --> 00:23:57.669 - competitive advantage in your entire market 690 00:23:58.129 --> 00:23:59.509 - because you have a breakthrough, 691 00:24:01.009 --> 00:24:02.954 - you are not going to talk about it 692 00:24:04.234 --> 00:24:06.794 - because you don't want your competitors to realize 693 00:24:06.794 --> 00:24:08.015 - what you just did. 694 00:24:08.474 --> 00:24:10.474 - Yeah. High frequency trading space is a good 695 00:24:10.474 --> 00:24:13.274 - example. Yeah. They do stuff. They're printing money, 696 00:24:13.274 --> 00:24:15.160 - and they're like, we're happy to privately and 697 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:15.660 - quietly, 698 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:17.480 - you know, do our little thing in the 699 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:19.160 - corner, and we won't we're not gonna show 700 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:20.680 - up to your conference, and we're not gonna 701 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:22.539 - talk on stage about whatever because 702 00:24:24.039 --> 00:24:26.440 - every time we do, we we chip away 703 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:27.259 - at our advantage. 704 00:24:27.775 --> 00:24:28.515 - That's exactly right. 705 00:24:29.214 --> 00:24:30.994 - But to go back to Tom's, like, 706 00:24:31.535 --> 00:24:32.035 - incremental 707 00:24:32.575 --> 00:24:33.075 - example 708 00:24:33.375 --> 00:24:35.694 - of you know? So so maybe, you know, 709 00:24:35.694 --> 00:24:36.994 - this week, you you 710 00:24:37.295 --> 00:24:39.075 - you gain a, like, 10% 711 00:24:39.535 --> 00:24:40.674 - incremental improvement. 712 00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:42.740 - Like, those incremental 713 00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:43.539 - improvements 714 00:24:44.320 --> 00:24:45.460 - compound over time. 715 00:24:46.160 --> 00:24:47.759 - And so if if you think of it 716 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:50.420 - as something like a compounding interest, 717 00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:51.619 - then 718 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:54.980 - if you continue to make those incremental improvements, 719 00:24:55.835 --> 00:24:58.015 - whereas there are people sitting back and waiting, 720 00:24:58.634 --> 00:25:01.355 - not making those incremental improvements, whether it's as 721 00:25:01.355 --> 00:25:03.434 - an individual or a team or an a 722 00:25:03.434 --> 00:25:04.174 - whole organization. 723 00:25:05.194 --> 00:25:06.335 - At some point, 724 00:25:06.875 --> 00:25:08.414 - those lines are gonna diverge. 725 00:25:08.779 --> 00:25:10.380 - The problem is if you look at, like, 726 00:25:10.380 --> 00:25:12.319 - a compounding interest chart, 727 00:25:13.019 --> 00:25:16.700 - the line for the longest time looks pretty 728 00:25:16.700 --> 00:25:18.460 - flat, and then all of a sudden, you 729 00:25:18.460 --> 00:25:20.159 - get this hockey stick effect. 730 00:25:20.619 --> 00:25:23.019 - And I think right now, we are at 731 00:25:23.019 --> 00:25:23.759 - the stage 732 00:25:24.365 --> 00:25:26.045 - where the lines still are 733 00:25:26.765 --> 00:25:28.384 - look almost parallel, 734 00:25:29.085 --> 00:25:31.404 - but at some point, there's gonna be a 735 00:25:31.404 --> 00:25:31.904 - divergence. 736 00:25:32.605 --> 00:25:34.365 - I can't tell you exactly when that's gonna 737 00:25:34.365 --> 00:25:34.865 - be, 738 00:25:35.644 --> 00:25:38.384 - but I'm pretty confident that it's coming. 739 00:25:39.005 --> 00:25:39.505 - And 740 00:25:40.410 --> 00:25:41.450 - a a a point I wanted to make 741 00:25:41.450 --> 00:25:41.950 - while, 742 00:25:42.890 --> 00:25:46.170 - while Mike was talking earlier is that sometimes 743 00:25:46.170 --> 00:25:47.390 - we talk about 744 00:25:48.170 --> 00:25:49.529 - is it a bubble, is it not a 745 00:25:49.529 --> 00:25:51.869 - bubble, all those things as if 746 00:25:52.570 --> 00:25:54.170 - because we think it's a bubble, we mean 747 00:25:54.170 --> 00:25:55.070 - it's not real. 748 00:25:55.654 --> 00:25:58.775 - And those two two concepts are mutual they're 749 00:25:58.775 --> 00:26:01.654 - independent of one another. Right? The Internet was 750 00:26:01.654 --> 00:26:04.294 - very real. The capabilities of the Internet were 751 00:26:04.294 --> 00:26:06.934 - very real. The change that the Internet was 752 00:26:06.934 --> 00:26:09.015 - bringing was very real, and we are all 753 00:26:09.015 --> 00:26:11.039 - here today because of it, 754 00:26:11.580 --> 00:26:13.680 - there was still an economic bubble. 755 00:26:13.980 --> 00:26:15.980 - Both of those things can be true at 756 00:26:15.980 --> 00:26:16.880 - the same time. 757 00:26:17.340 --> 00:26:18.559 - And so just, 758 00:26:18.940 --> 00:26:20.779 - you know, regardless of what you believe about 759 00:26:20.779 --> 00:26:22.460 - the economics of it whether or not it's 760 00:26:22.460 --> 00:26:24.884 - a bubble, it doesn't mean the technology 761 00:26:25.904 --> 00:26:26.805 - isn't meaningful 762 00:26:27.345 --> 00:26:30.144 - and worth some investigation. So I I think 763 00:26:30.144 --> 00:26:30.884 - it's important 764 00:26:31.345 --> 00:26:33.664 - to kind of separate those two concepts a 765 00:26:33.664 --> 00:26:34.164 - bit. 766 00:26:34.625 --> 00:26:36.545 - Yeah. The the technology is gonna be durable. 767 00:26:36.545 --> 00:26:38.005 - There's no doubt. I think, 768 00:26:39.160 --> 00:26:39.980 - you know, I 769 00:26:40.359 --> 00:26:42.279 - think people will they need to assess whether 770 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:44.279 - they need to participate or not. For the 771 00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:46.440 - people watching the two parallel lines, though, I 772 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:48.279 - mean, how do you encourage someone who's watching 773 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:49.339 - that? How do you 774 00:26:49.720 --> 00:26:51.160 - I mean, like, in in general, how do 775 00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:52.940 - you how do you get them off the 776 00:26:53.444 --> 00:26:54.804 - the sidelines? How do you get them off 777 00:26:54.804 --> 00:26:57.044 - the fence? So they because it the the 778 00:26:57.204 --> 00:26:57.704 - when, 779 00:26:58.244 --> 00:27:00.005 - if you think about, like, the the the 780 00:27:00.005 --> 00:27:01.384 - effort you have to put in 781 00:27:02.244 --> 00:27:04.404 - is gonna be sort of related to how 782 00:27:04.404 --> 00:27:06.244 - how far those lines have diverged. And when 783 00:27:06.244 --> 00:27:07.798 - those lines are, like, on top of each 784 00:27:07.798 --> 00:27:09.705 - other, then it's, like, it's relatively lower efforts 785 00:27:09.705 --> 00:27:11.613 - to participate. You do it over a longer 786 00:27:11.613 --> 00:27:13.520 - period of time. So it's, like, low effort 787 00:27:13.520 --> 00:27:15.428 - but over a long period of time. If 788 00:27:15.428 --> 00:27:17.335 - you would wait until it totally diverged, then 789 00:27:17.335 --> 00:27:19.243 - you have to learn a new discipline. You 790 00:27:19.243 --> 00:27:21.389 - know, you don't you saved all the time 791 00:27:21.389 --> 00:27:23.296 - along the way. So maybe, like, during that 792 00:27:23.296 --> 00:27:25.215 - time, know, there was some opportunity cost. You 793 00:27:25.215 --> 00:27:27.715 - did something else that was useful, valuable, whatever. 794 00:27:28.095 --> 00:27:30.095 - But now you're sitting and watching. Like, how 795 00:27:30.095 --> 00:27:31.474 - do you get people to 796 00:27:32.174 --> 00:27:32.914 - to engage? 797 00:27:33.535 --> 00:27:35.455 - So so before we talk about that, because 798 00:27:35.455 --> 00:27:37.539 - I actually have ideas, I wanna go back 799 00:27:37.539 --> 00:27:39.720 - to automation for just a second and ask, 800 00:27:40.340 --> 00:27:42.420 - are we at the point where people should 801 00:27:42.420 --> 00:27:45.080 - leapfrog automation and just go in 802 00:27:45.779 --> 00:27:47.400 - and start looking at AI, 803 00:27:48.180 --> 00:27:49.559 - LLM based tools 804 00:27:50.259 --> 00:27:52.200 - as a part of or superseding? 805 00:27:53.115 --> 00:27:56.474 - Does it supersede automation? What's the relationship here? 806 00:27:56.474 --> 00:27:59.214 - Do y'all think? Like, just just in general, 807 00:27:59.835 --> 00:28:00.795 - are we, like 808 00:28:01.835 --> 00:28:04.255 - we we haven't even succeeded in automation 809 00:28:04.714 --> 00:28:06.494 - at this point. Are we 810 00:28:06.910 --> 00:28:09.309 - are we, like, at a leapfrog point? What 811 00:28:09.309 --> 00:28:11.470 - what are we gonna do with this? So 812 00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:11.970 - I'm 813 00:28:12.349 --> 00:28:14.269 - sorry. Go ahead, Mike. Well, so I'm looking 814 00:28:14.269 --> 00:28:16.430 - in cloud. I'll just I'll keep it super 815 00:28:16.430 --> 00:28:18.930 - short. In cloud, there were people who YOLOed. 816 00:28:19.355 --> 00:28:22.154 - They moved to cloud. They abdicated responsibility. They 817 00:28:22.154 --> 00:28:23.595 - said, we're in the cloud. It's up to 818 00:28:23.595 --> 00:28:26.734 - AWS now. You know? Jesus, take the wheel. 819 00:28:26.795 --> 00:28:28.634 - And then that didn't always work out for 820 00:28:28.634 --> 00:28:29.134 - them. 821 00:28:29.994 --> 00:28:32.335 - In fact, it almost never did, but okay. 822 00:28:34.670 --> 00:28:36.210 - So there's a lot of repatriation 823 00:28:36.509 --> 00:28:37.890 - going on. Go ahead, Tom. 824 00:28:38.190 --> 00:28:39.549 - The thought I've had, and I know it's 825 00:28:39.549 --> 00:28:41.630 - I know it's not this simple, but, sort 826 00:28:41.630 --> 00:28:42.450 - of, I guess, 827 00:28:42.990 --> 00:28:43.490 - theoretically, 828 00:28:44.670 --> 00:28:46.005 - now would be a great time, I think, 829 00:28:46.005 --> 00:28:47.845 - to stand up an MCP server in front 830 00:28:47.845 --> 00:28:49.765 - of your infrastructure, inform about how to get 831 00:28:49.765 --> 00:28:51.164 - into your infrastructure. And I know it sounds 832 00:28:51.164 --> 00:28:52.964 - a little crazy, but we're cowboys. Right? You 833 00:28:52.964 --> 00:28:55.285 - know what, Yvonne? So Mhmm. You know, stand 834 00:28:55.285 --> 00:28:57.285 - up this MCP MCP server in front of 835 00:28:57.285 --> 00:28:58.724 - your infrastructure, teach it how to talk to 836 00:28:58.724 --> 00:28:59.305 - your infrastructure, 837 00:28:59.609 --> 00:29:00.109 - and 838 00:29:00.650 --> 00:29:02.730 - use, you know, use whatever you're gonna use, 839 00:29:02.730 --> 00:29:03.549 - cloud, whatever, 840 00:29:04.250 --> 00:29:06.429 - to to talk to this MCP server 841 00:29:06.730 --> 00:29:09.230 - and and do things for a while 842 00:29:09.690 --> 00:29:12.730 - and and figure out how to make those 843 00:29:12.730 --> 00:29:14.269 - patterns that you already use, 844 00:29:15.035 --> 00:29:16.554 - to how to turn them into an automation 845 00:29:16.554 --> 00:29:17.054 - system, 846 00:29:17.994 --> 00:29:20.095 - or or something along the like, if 847 00:29:20.394 --> 00:29:22.714 - we're trying to a thing that learns from 848 00:29:22.714 --> 00:29:24.974 - language can learn from patterns of usage. 849 00:29:25.434 --> 00:29:27.434 - And so, you know, if I was starting 850 00:29:27.434 --> 00:29:28.494 - fresh and had nothing, 851 00:29:29.230 --> 00:29:31.230 - I would probably do something like that. Like, 852 00:29:31.230 --> 00:29:33.150 - let's let's figure out what the work is, 853 00:29:33.150 --> 00:29:35.470 - have something right you know, plan some software 854 00:29:35.470 --> 00:29:36.769 - for me, and, 855 00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:39.390 - why not let it watch what I'm doing? 856 00:29:39.390 --> 00:29:41.150 - And I don't know. It it it seems 857 00:29:41.150 --> 00:29:43.470 - like there are capabilities for standing up these 858 00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:44.369 - systems that, 859 00:29:45.025 --> 00:29:45.845 - don't involve 860 00:29:46.224 --> 00:29:47.984 - sit down for a year and plan out 861 00:29:47.984 --> 00:29:50.565 - your work and build a very elegant architecture. 862 00:29:51.265 --> 00:29:53.505 - Do you think that the average bystander can 863 00:29:53.505 --> 00:29:54.644 - get started on that? 864 00:29:56.065 --> 00:29:57.670 - I don't know. Know. I mean, you do 865 00:29:57.670 --> 00:29:59.029 - have to be able to write a little 866 00:29:59.029 --> 00:30:00.470 - bit of code. I think you have to 867 00:30:00.710 --> 00:30:02.470 - but I I don't know. I'm I'm optimistic 868 00:30:02.470 --> 00:30:04.470 - that a network engineer could could do something 869 00:30:04.470 --> 00:30:06.070 - like that. Because all of us at one 870 00:30:06.070 --> 00:30:07.190 - point had to sit down and say, you 871 00:30:07.190 --> 00:30:08.230 - know what? I need to stand up a 872 00:30:08.230 --> 00:30:09.590 - web server, and I need to not wait 873 00:30:09.590 --> 00:30:11.265 - for some server to do it. Like, we 874 00:30:11.265 --> 00:30:12.884 - had to we had to all do that. 875 00:30:13.025 --> 00:30:14.725 - And so, you know, why not? 876 00:30:15.265 --> 00:30:16.945 - None of us came out of the womb, 877 00:30:16.945 --> 00:30:18.805 - not even Russ White, knowing BGP. 878 00:30:19.184 --> 00:30:20.884 - Right? Everything we know, we learned. 879 00:30:23.057 --> 00:30:24.930 - And and, you know, and I think it 880 00:30:24.930 --> 00:30:27.349 - may present a unique opportunity. Like, 881 00:30:27.650 --> 00:30:30.210 - one of the things that that I've also 882 00:30:30.210 --> 00:30:31.349 - seen as an example 883 00:30:31.809 --> 00:30:34.609 - is that I have actually seen people who 884 00:30:34.609 --> 00:30:35.670 - are non developers 885 00:30:36.609 --> 00:30:37.750 - be more successful 886 00:30:38.130 --> 00:30:38.630 - implementing 887 00:30:39.434 --> 00:30:42.315 - systems and code with AI than developers. And 888 00:30:42.315 --> 00:30:44.335 - that's because they go to the AI, 889 00:30:44.714 --> 00:30:46.474 - and they say, I don't know what I'm 890 00:30:46.474 --> 00:30:48.815 - doing. Tell me how to build this. Right? 891 00:30:49.115 --> 00:30:51.054 - And and so instead of, 892 00:30:51.674 --> 00:30:53.420 - like, you say, okay. I want you to 893 00:30:53.420 --> 00:30:54.619 - build it, and I want you to build 894 00:30:54.619 --> 00:30:56.640 - it this way, and I want you like, 895 00:30:56.779 --> 00:30:59.119 - so go to your AI tool of choice, 896 00:30:59.180 --> 00:31:02.480 - Gemini, Claude, whatever, and say, hey. 897 00:31:03.660 --> 00:31:05.339 - If I wanted to send up an MCB 898 00:31:05.339 --> 00:31:07.180 - server and talk to my infrastructure, how would 899 00:31:07.180 --> 00:31:07.920 - I do that? 900 00:31:08.775 --> 00:31:11.195 - And then it will tell you. And then 901 00:31:11.815 --> 00:31:13.494 - it you you can set it up so 902 00:31:13.494 --> 00:31:15.335 - that you have to approve everything that it 903 00:31:15.335 --> 00:31:15.835 - does. 904 00:31:16.375 --> 00:31:18.955 - But in a lot of ways, it lowers 905 00:31:19.015 --> 00:31:21.599 - the barrier of entry. Like, you don't have 906 00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:24.099 - to write the Python from scratch, for example. 907 00:31:25.359 --> 00:31:27.920 - I I still think it's really important to 908 00:31:27.920 --> 00:31:28.820 - know the vocabulary 909 00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:31.440 - of all those things. Like, you you ought 910 00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:32.880 - to know what git is and how it 911 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:35.535 - works, and you gotta have some general programming 912 00:31:35.994 --> 00:31:38.394 - constructs and concepts in your mind. And you've 913 00:31:38.394 --> 00:31:40.734 - got, like, those kinds of things. 914 00:31:42.075 --> 00:31:43.134 - But, actually, 915 00:31:43.755 --> 00:31:45.535 - you could use the tool 916 00:31:46.154 --> 00:31:46.315 - to 917 00:31:46.980 --> 00:31:47.720 - and and 918 00:31:48.819 --> 00:31:51.539 - and leapfrog a bit, but, like, the those 919 00:31:51.539 --> 00:31:53.160 - standard concepts of automation 920 00:31:53.539 --> 00:31:54.519 - don't go away, 921 00:31:55.220 --> 00:31:56.839 - but you now have a helper. 922 00:31:57.460 --> 00:31:58.279 - And so 923 00:31:59.059 --> 00:32:00.359 - if you use it properly, 924 00:32:00.660 --> 00:32:02.039 - it's a unique opportunity, 925 00:32:03.794 --> 00:32:06.835 - to kind of either pivot or learn or 926 00:32:06.835 --> 00:32:09.174 - grow or implement in ways that you couldn't 927 00:32:09.234 --> 00:32:10.534 - in the past. And 928 00:32:11.075 --> 00:32:12.775 - and I I see a lot of that. 929 00:32:13.234 --> 00:32:15.394 - I I'm still excited about Mike's question, but 930 00:32:15.394 --> 00:32:17.095 - I don't wanna jump too far ahead 931 00:32:18.419 --> 00:32:19.720 - because I have thoughts too. 932 00:32:20.179 --> 00:32:22.019 - Yeah. Well, I mean, we can go there 933 00:32:22.019 --> 00:32:23.619 - now. I mean, I just wanted to went 934 00:32:23.619 --> 00:32:26.259 - throughout because we talked about automation versus AI 935 00:32:26.259 --> 00:32:28.339 - in the very beginning. I didn't wanna lose 936 00:32:28.339 --> 00:32:30.259 - that thread until we Yeah. Kinda came back 937 00:32:30.259 --> 00:32:31.220 - around to it. 938 00:32:31.859 --> 00:32:34.005 - So I think from my perspective, 939 00:32:34.865 --> 00:32:37.505 - it's much more my my perspective on it 940 00:32:37.505 --> 00:32:39.365 - is is to find ways 941 00:32:39.664 --> 00:32:42.085 - to intentionally use, as you said, Yvonne, 942 00:32:42.384 --> 00:32:43.845 - the AI as a helper. 943 00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:45.529 - Find very 944 00:32:46.150 --> 00:32:46.650 - specific 945 00:32:46.950 --> 00:32:47.450 - task 946 00:32:48.070 --> 00:32:50.549 - that I may not know precisely how to 947 00:32:50.549 --> 00:32:51.049 - do 948 00:32:51.509 --> 00:32:53.509 - or I may just not want to spend 949 00:32:53.509 --> 00:32:55.910 - the time doing, what whatever that case is. 950 00:32:55.910 --> 00:32:56.410 - Right? 951 00:32:56.804 --> 00:32:58.424 - And I use the AI 952 00:32:58.724 --> 00:33:00.825 - to do that thing for me. 953 00:33:01.284 --> 00:33:03.125 - I never just I think a lot of 954 00:33:03.125 --> 00:33:04.644 - the problem with AI right now is that 955 00:33:04.644 --> 00:33:06.325 - people walk up to it and say, you 956 00:33:06.325 --> 00:33:09.044 - know, log on to Claude or Gemini or 957 00:33:09.044 --> 00:33:10.585 - whatever it is, and they say, 958 00:33:12.009 --> 00:33:14.009 - write me a piece of software that does 959 00:33:14.009 --> 00:33:14.509 - this. 960 00:33:14.890 --> 00:33:16.750 - And Al spits a bunch of code, 961 00:33:17.210 --> 00:33:18.650 - and they don't know how to read it. 962 00:33:18.650 --> 00:33:20.890 - They don't know how to evaluate it. They 963 00:33:20.890 --> 00:33:22.809 - don't know how to do anything with this. 964 00:33:22.809 --> 00:33:23.309 - Right? 965 00:33:23.794 --> 00:33:24.855 - It's much better 966 00:33:25.315 --> 00:33:27.234 - to start and say, I need to write 967 00:33:27.234 --> 00:33:29.474 - a piece of code that does this. So 968 00:33:29.474 --> 00:33:31.575 - you sit down and you start writing 969 00:33:32.194 --> 00:33:32.694 - yourself. 970 00:33:32.994 --> 00:33:34.595 - And then when you get to an impasse, 971 00:33:34.595 --> 00:33:35.335 - you say, 972 00:33:36.515 --> 00:33:37.974 - I don't know how to do that. 973 00:33:38.674 --> 00:33:41.029 - I'm gonna ask. And you ask the little 974 00:33:41.029 --> 00:33:43.430 - AI assistant, and it spits back some code. 975 00:33:43.430 --> 00:33:44.890 - But it's a very specific 976 00:33:45.910 --> 00:33:46.410 - thing 977 00:33:46.789 --> 00:33:47.609 - that you, 978 00:33:47.910 --> 00:33:50.170 - in the context of your own development, 979 00:33:51.349 --> 00:33:53.690 - know how to evaluate what it's done. 980 00:33:55.105 --> 00:33:57.025 - So one of the I remember when I 981 00:33:57.025 --> 00:33:59.105 - first started writing code, one of the very 982 00:33:59.105 --> 00:34:00.944 - common piece of advice floating out there was 983 00:34:00.944 --> 00:34:03.204 - you can't learn to write code academically. 984 00:34:03.664 --> 00:34:05.825 - It it it can't be a a stupid 985 00:34:05.825 --> 00:34:07.825 - thing. It has to be some real problem 986 00:34:07.825 --> 00:34:09.519 - no matter how small it is. And I 987 00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:12.500 - think the opportunities right now are still that, 988 00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:14.960 - but, you know, have it write your software 989 00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:16.720 - and then have it explain your software to 990 00:34:16.720 --> 00:34:18.820 - you in your your hobby project or whatever. 991 00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:20.720 - And that's something you couldn't do before with 992 00:34:20.720 --> 00:34:22.960 - software. You couldn't it was like, okay, go 993 00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.045 - get your Python book and and learn how 994 00:34:25.045 --> 00:34:26.885 - to do this. You can you can tell 995 00:34:26.885 --> 00:34:27.385 - the 996 00:34:27.765 --> 00:34:29.765 - machine, do this this pet project for me 997 00:34:29.765 --> 00:34:31.844 - and then now explain. And then and as 998 00:34:31.844 --> 00:34:33.445 - you read through it, why does this what 999 00:34:33.445 --> 00:34:35.045 - does this do? How does this work? And 1000 00:34:35.045 --> 00:34:36.965 - you can ask a billion questions without annoying 1001 00:34:36.965 --> 00:34:38.644 - it. And you can you can, you know, 1002 00:34:38.644 --> 00:34:41.090 - take thirty minutes a day and just write 1003 00:34:41.090 --> 00:34:42.769 - software and have the rest of the week 1004 00:34:42.769 --> 00:34:44.550 - explain to you the software that it wrote. 1005 00:34:44.930 --> 00:34:47.650 - I think we can actually accelerate our education 1006 00:34:47.650 --> 00:34:48.950 - in all sorts of disciplines 1007 00:34:49.570 --> 00:34:51.489 - beyond anything we've had before because you could 1008 00:34:51.489 --> 00:34:53.785 - have He said that I would always treat 1009 00:34:53.785 --> 00:34:56.045 - the AI as a code partner 1010 00:34:56.505 --> 00:34:58.285 - rather than as the creator 1011 00:34:59.065 --> 00:34:59.565 - myself. 1012 00:35:00.025 --> 00:35:01.324 - Right. For the for 1013 00:35:01.625 --> 00:35:03.065 - the real thing. Right? You do what I'm 1014 00:35:03.065 --> 00:35:04.905 - suggesting is you if we're trying to help 1015 00:35:04.905 --> 00:35:06.809 - people kinda see the value, like, have it 1016 00:35:06.809 --> 00:35:08.730 - write the software for you for this small 1017 00:35:08.730 --> 00:35:10.650 - project, explain it to you, and then you 1018 00:35:10.650 --> 00:35:12.250 - throw that all away and do it yourself. 1019 00:35:12.250 --> 00:35:13.849 - Or now you now you know how to 1020 00:35:13.849 --> 00:35:14.989 - interact with the machine. 1021 00:35:15.690 --> 00:35:17.450 - But it's funny how we always fall into 1022 00:35:17.450 --> 00:35:19.514 - coding. Sorry. Go ahead, Yvonne. No. It's fine. 1023 00:35:19.514 --> 00:35:20.954 - No. I will say, I don't think it's 1024 00:35:20.954 --> 00:35:22.894 - always gonna be the case where 1025 00:35:23.434 --> 00:35:25.434 - you and AI are writing code together. I 1026 00:35:25.434 --> 00:35:26.714 - do think we'll get to a point where 1027 00:35:26.714 --> 00:35:28.655 - AI is doing most of the writing. But 1028 00:35:29.194 --> 00:35:29.694 - regarding, 1029 00:35:29.994 --> 00:35:32.500 - like, Mike's question of how do you how 1030 00:35:32.500 --> 00:35:35.239 - do you bring people along as a leader, 1031 00:35:36.340 --> 00:35:39.140 - you always have a distribution of people that 1032 00:35:39.140 --> 00:35:41.539 - are somewhere, like, you got your you got 1033 00:35:41.539 --> 00:35:43.700 - your cowboys and your city planners, and then 1034 00:35:43.700 --> 00:35:46.574 - you have your, you know, your your day 1035 00:35:46.574 --> 00:35:49.474 - workers, you know, on on your team. Right? 1036 00:35:49.535 --> 00:35:51.454 - You you've got your people that that are 1037 00:35:51.454 --> 00:35:52.434 - are out front. 1038 00:35:52.735 --> 00:35:54.974 - You've got people that are, you know, they 1039 00:35:55.215 --> 00:35:57.054 - they're not comfortable being out front, but they're 1040 00:35:57.054 --> 00:35:59.190 - really good at structuring, organizing. And then you 1041 00:35:59.190 --> 00:36:00.230 - got the folks that are like, you have 1042 00:36:00.230 --> 00:36:01.349 - to tell them what to do, and they 1043 00:36:01.349 --> 00:36:02.550 - do what you tell them, and that's all 1044 00:36:02.550 --> 00:36:03.530 - they do. Right? 1045 00:36:03.829 --> 00:36:05.750 - But as a leader, like, one of the 1046 00:36:05.750 --> 00:36:07.690 - things I've seen be successful 1047 00:36:07.989 --> 00:36:08.489 - is 1048 00:36:08.789 --> 00:36:11.750 - you you give your your most forward thinking 1049 00:36:11.750 --> 00:36:12.969 - people room to run, 1050 00:36:13.514 --> 00:36:14.255 - and then 1051 00:36:14.795 --> 00:36:17.214 - you work with them to develop something 1052 00:36:17.514 --> 00:36:18.014 - practical 1053 00:36:18.554 --> 00:36:21.375 - that everybody else can actually use 1054 00:36:21.994 --> 00:36:24.815 - and apply it to their daily work. 1055 00:36:25.190 --> 00:36:27.670 - And then once they can use it and 1056 00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:29.610 - apply it to their daily work, 1057 00:36:29.910 --> 00:36:32.470 - then all of a sudden, you've sparked some 1058 00:36:32.470 --> 00:36:35.110 - creativity. Like, oh, I kinda know what this 1059 00:36:35.110 --> 00:36:37.125 - is now. It makes more sense to me. 1060 00:36:37.364 --> 00:36:39.684 - And then they'll start getting creative with that 1061 00:36:39.684 --> 00:36:41.925 - thing and figuring out how to incorporate it 1062 00:36:41.925 --> 00:36:44.485 - into their work. But you've gotta figure out 1063 00:36:44.485 --> 00:36:46.885 - how to find that bridge of there's this 1064 00:36:46.885 --> 00:36:48.405 - new scary thing out there that I don't 1065 00:36:48.405 --> 00:36:49.764 - understand, and I don't I don't know what 1066 00:36:49.764 --> 00:36:51.090 - I don't know what to do with it. 1067 00:36:51.250 --> 00:36:53.489 - And then build some breadcrumbs for the folks 1068 00:36:53.489 --> 00:36:55.890 - that maybe don't know how to make that 1069 00:36:55.890 --> 00:36:56.390 - connection. 1070 00:36:57.570 --> 00:37:00.210 - And I found that incredibly successful. And that's 1071 00:37:00.210 --> 00:37:02.369 - not just an AI thing. That's any new 1072 00:37:02.369 --> 00:37:02.869 - technology. 1073 00:37:03.875 --> 00:37:04.375 - Yeah. 1074 00:37:05.074 --> 00:37:07.714 - But, but I think, like, giving folks a 1075 00:37:07.714 --> 00:37:11.155 - practical thing to do that makes their daily 1076 00:37:11.155 --> 00:37:14.275 - work easier, better, faster that they can see 1077 00:37:14.275 --> 00:37:16.214 - the personal value in is crucial. 1078 00:37:16.910 --> 00:37:18.989 - The the the initial returns, though, are gonna 1079 00:37:18.989 --> 00:37:19.730 - tend to be 1080 00:37:22.430 --> 00:37:23.950 - It's gonna feel like you're wasting a lot 1081 00:37:23.950 --> 00:37:24.989 - of time. Yeah. That's 1082 00:37:25.789 --> 00:37:28.130 - So what what you gotta do like, if 1083 00:37:28.349 --> 00:37:31.195 - if I wanna learn guitar, guitar, then I 1084 00:37:31.195 --> 00:37:33.114 - know that I'm gonna be terrible at playing 1085 00:37:33.114 --> 00:37:34.954 - guitar for some number of, you know, days, 1086 00:37:34.954 --> 00:37:36.014 - weeks, months, whatever. 1087 00:37:36.554 --> 00:37:38.155 - But because it's a thing that I want 1088 00:37:38.155 --> 00:37:38.734 - to do, 1089 00:37:39.434 --> 00:37:41.695 - I'm sort of comfortable with that learning curve. 1090 00:37:42.074 --> 00:37:43.835 - If I don't wanna learn AI, but I'm 1091 00:37:43.835 --> 00:37:45.759 - told I have to, I don't have the 1092 00:37:45.759 --> 00:37:46.500 - same forgiveness. 1093 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:48.960 - And so I'm like, this sucks straight away. 1094 00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:50.880 - I don't wanna do it. What you gotta 1095 00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:52.239 - do is figure out how do you lower 1096 00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.119 - like, you gotta lower their upfront expectations. You 1097 00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:57.460 - gotta raise their long longer term expectations. 1098 00:37:58.244 --> 00:37:59.684 - But if you're not willing if people are 1099 00:37:59.684 --> 00:38:02.484 - not willing to, like, faithfully engage and actually 1100 00:38:02.484 --> 00:38:04.164 - try to do something and endure a little 1101 00:38:04.164 --> 00:38:05.545 - bit of the early part that's 1102 00:38:05.924 --> 00:38:06.824 - a bit cumbersome, 1103 00:38:07.525 --> 00:38:10.005 - then they're not gonna learn enough to actually, 1104 00:38:10.005 --> 00:38:12.699 - like, turn into a valuable two tool. Now 1105 00:38:12.699 --> 00:38:13.980 - the thing where I think AI is a 1106 00:38:13.980 --> 00:38:15.279 - little bit different than guitar 1107 00:38:16.059 --> 00:38:17.819 - is that AI is willing to help you 1108 00:38:17.819 --> 00:38:18.559 - learn it. 1109 00:38:18.940 --> 00:38:20.699 - So to, you know, to to Tom's point 1110 00:38:20.699 --> 00:38:22.059 - about, you know, you can ask for help. 1111 00:38:22.059 --> 00:38:24.639 - Like, it's willing to to to help you. 1112 00:38:25.235 --> 00:38:27.255 - I think maybe that that helps a bit, 1113 00:38:27.474 --> 00:38:29.235 - but I think I think you have to 1114 00:38:29.235 --> 00:38:30.215 - find people who are 1115 00:38:31.155 --> 00:38:32.375 - maybe in the right mindset. 1116 00:38:33.875 --> 00:38:36.355 - And then, Russ, you asked a question earlier 1117 00:38:36.355 --> 00:38:38.170 - that I wanna kind of tie all this 1118 00:38:38.170 --> 00:38:39.849 - back together to that. You you you asked, 1119 00:38:39.849 --> 00:38:41.710 - can you are people gonna learn automation, 1120 00:38:42.090 --> 00:38:43.449 - or are they just gonna learn AI and 1121 00:38:43.449 --> 00:38:45.369 - leapfrog it? I think if you don't know 1122 00:38:45.369 --> 00:38:47.449 - workflow, if you're not fluent in the language 1123 00:38:47.449 --> 00:38:48.110 - of automation, 1124 00:38:48.570 --> 00:38:49.070 - then, 1125 00:38:49.449 --> 00:38:51.105 - you know, you can fail with any tool. 1126 00:38:52.945 --> 00:38:54.304 - Yeah. And so I I I I think 1127 00:38:54.304 --> 00:38:55.905 - what people they're what they're gonna have to 1128 00:38:55.905 --> 00:38:57.445 - do is they're gonna have to like, 1129 00:38:58.065 --> 00:38:59.344 - I think if you just if you think 1130 00:38:59.344 --> 00:39:02.465 - that you can ignore operations generally, ignore workflow 1131 00:39:02.465 --> 00:39:03.984 - generally, and then a tool is gonna come 1132 00:39:03.984 --> 00:39:05.750 - along and then and then solve it for 1133 00:39:05.750 --> 00:39:07.369 - you. I I I think that's probably, 1134 00:39:08.710 --> 00:39:09.210 - optimistic. 1135 00:39:09.670 --> 00:39:11.530 - And and and where that will be true, 1136 00:39:11.750 --> 00:39:13.269 - it won't be the tool that solves it 1137 00:39:13.269 --> 00:39:14.469 - for you. It'll be that you have some 1138 00:39:14.469 --> 00:39:14.969 - coworkers 1139 00:39:15.510 --> 00:39:17.190 - that are doing hard work around you, and 1140 00:39:17.190 --> 00:39:18.789 - then they're gonna spoon feed it to you. 1141 00:39:18.789 --> 00:39:21.345 - Like, that that may be some people's experiences. 1142 00:39:21.885 --> 00:39:23.885 - But, generally, if it's a company that doesn't 1143 00:39:23.965 --> 00:39:25.885 - if it's a network that where no one 1144 00:39:25.885 --> 00:39:27.505 - who's doing it knows 1145 00:39:28.204 --> 00:39:31.405 - anything about operations and, like, how to architect 1146 00:39:31.405 --> 00:39:32.845 - stuff and, like, how to think through, like, 1147 00:39:32.845 --> 00:39:34.980 - the hard work of network engineering. If you 1148 00:39:34.980 --> 00:39:35.960 - don't know that, 1149 00:39:36.340 --> 00:39:37.860 - AI is not gonna suddenly give you that 1150 00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:39.940 - discipline. I think it's gonna make it it's 1151 00:39:39.940 --> 00:39:41.619 - gonna give you a really, really fast path 1152 00:39:41.619 --> 00:39:42.920 - to break things at scale. 1153 00:39:43.300 --> 00:39:44.360 - Well and I think 1154 00:39:45.059 --> 00:39:48.194 - to to just double down on that, Systems 1155 00:39:48.255 --> 00:39:50.514 - thinking becomes more important, not less. 1156 00:39:50.894 --> 00:39:53.054 - Yeah. Because as you start to build with 1157 00:39:53.054 --> 00:39:53.875 - these tools, 1158 00:39:54.255 --> 00:39:55.795 - you have to build them 1159 00:39:56.815 --> 00:39:59.775 - in in a systems approach because, ultimately, what 1160 00:39:59.775 --> 00:40:02.210 - you're doing is building a a system that's 1161 00:40:02.210 --> 00:40:03.109 - going to 1162 00:40:03.489 --> 00:40:05.269 - do all the things. Right? 1163 00:40:05.730 --> 00:40:07.489 - They they've shown this in hiring and stuff. 1164 00:40:07.489 --> 00:40:08.929 - So there was a belief that what it 1165 00:40:08.929 --> 00:40:11.489 - was gonna do was eradicate the expensive, you 1166 00:40:11.489 --> 00:40:13.409 - know, your engineer with twenty five, thirty years 1167 00:40:13.409 --> 00:40:13.909 - experience. 1168 00:40:14.210 --> 00:40:15.489 - Turns out, those are the people who are 1169 00:40:15.489 --> 00:40:17.304 - best equipped to use the tools. That's right. 1170 00:40:17.304 --> 00:40:17.804 - Yeah. 1171 00:40:18.744 --> 00:40:20.265 - Yeah. But now but there but there are 1172 00:40:20.265 --> 00:40:20.765 - two 1173 00:40:21.144 --> 00:40:23.144 - things there that I think are important. The 1174 00:40:23.144 --> 00:40:25.224 - first is, like, when you talk about, like, 1175 00:40:25.224 --> 00:40:27.784 - the the illustration of guitars is interesting to 1176 00:40:27.784 --> 00:40:28.684 - me because 1177 00:40:29.224 --> 00:40:31.260 - I know that when I was learning jazz 1178 00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:34.000 - piano, the one thing I could never do, 1179 00:40:34.619 --> 00:40:37.199 - you could not you cannot give somebody Goldberg's 1180 00:40:37.340 --> 00:40:37.840 - variations 1181 00:40:38.860 --> 00:40:40.159 - to teach them piano. 1182 00:40:41.019 --> 00:40:42.079 - There's no success. 1183 00:40:42.539 --> 00:40:43.039 - Right? 1184 00:40:43.500 --> 00:40:44.639 - It's it's scales. 1185 00:40:44.940 --> 00:40:47.215 - Like, okay, I can do scales all day 1186 00:40:47.215 --> 00:40:50.114 - long. I know the technique. Whatever, whatever. 1187 00:40:50.574 --> 00:40:52.275 - Unless I see incremental 1188 00:40:52.574 --> 00:40:53.074 - success 1189 00:40:54.255 --> 00:40:55.074 - over time 1190 00:40:55.614 --> 00:40:58.255 - at doing something, my interest level is going 1191 00:40:58.255 --> 00:40:58.914 - to wane 1192 00:40:59.429 --> 00:41:00.089 - very quickly. 1193 00:41:00.710 --> 00:41:03.530 - So people need to be very intentional about 1194 00:41:04.150 --> 00:41:06.710 - finding those things. Right? Like, to even get 1195 00:41:06.710 --> 00:41:07.690 - away from coding 1196 00:41:08.150 --> 00:41:09.929 - to get towards more towards networking, 1197 00:41:10.710 --> 00:41:13.034 - don't just throw logs at the AI and 1198 00:41:13.114 --> 00:41:14.894 - say, tell me what's wrong with my network. 1199 00:41:16.155 --> 00:41:18.894 - Throw logs at the AI and say, alright. 1200 00:41:18.954 --> 00:41:21.775 - I've noticed this application might be running slow. 1201 00:41:22.554 --> 00:41:24.094 - You know? I've noticed 1202 00:41:24.394 --> 00:41:26.875 - a problem in this area. I'm gonna ask 1203 00:41:26.875 --> 00:41:28.255 - very specific questions 1204 00:41:28.730 --> 00:41:31.069 - based on my understanding of networks 1205 00:41:32.329 --> 00:41:34.030 - that's going to tease information 1206 00:41:34.409 --> 00:41:36.969 - out of the AI, which then gives me 1207 00:41:36.969 --> 00:41:37.789 - a success. 1208 00:41:38.969 --> 00:41:40.960 - It's a narrow success, but it's a success. 1209 00:41:41.210 --> 00:41:42.030 - Matt Oswald? 1210 00:41:42.704 --> 00:41:44.625 - Yes. Mhmm. So Matt Oswald, when he was 1211 00:41:44.625 --> 00:41:46.465 - doing the NRE Labs thing, which was, like, 1212 00:41:46.465 --> 00:41:48.625 - such an awesome project, like, that was that 1213 00:41:48.625 --> 00:41:51.265 - was he used to say that the one 1214 00:41:51.265 --> 00:41:53.025 - of the hard things about automation, I'll just 1215 00:41:53.184 --> 00:41:54.465 - you know, I would expand it. I would 1216 00:41:54.465 --> 00:41:56.280 - say it's true in AI as well, is 1217 00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:57.559 - Is that to some extent, you have to 1218 00:41:57.559 --> 00:41:59.079 - be an expert before you're allowed to be 1219 00:41:59.079 --> 00:41:59.739 - a beginner. 1220 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:00.699 - Yep. 1221 00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:03.400 - And, like, I whenever he he he said 1222 00:42:03.400 --> 00:42:04.840 - that, it was such a simple thing to 1223 00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:07.000 - say. And and but, like, it stuck with 1224 00:42:07.000 --> 00:42:08.760 - me. Like, there's so many disciplines where it's 1225 00:42:08.760 --> 00:42:10.735 - like we and then you're going back to 1226 00:42:10.735 --> 00:42:12.835 - the beginning of this whole conversation. Like, when 1227 00:42:13.054 --> 00:42:15.375 - when Yvonne talks about that gap at at 1228 00:42:15.375 --> 00:42:16.434 - at k y nug, 1229 00:42:17.135 --> 00:42:18.655 - do you call it kynug? Like, is that 1230 00:42:18.655 --> 00:42:19.635 - a is that a 1231 00:42:20.974 --> 00:42:22.434 - like, I don't know how to 1232 00:42:22.869 --> 00:42:23.369 - right. 1233 00:42:23.909 --> 00:42:25.050 - At at that place, 1234 00:42:27.269 --> 00:42:27.769 - the 1235 00:42:28.070 --> 00:42:31.030 - that gap, like like, the further ahead the 1236 00:42:31.030 --> 00:42:33.109 - leading people get, the more those two lines 1237 00:42:33.109 --> 00:42:35.335 - diverge, the harder it is to get started. 1238 00:42:35.875 --> 00:42:37.795 - Like, I I almost feel like if if 1239 00:42:37.795 --> 00:42:40.375 - people don't don't figure that part out now, 1240 00:42:40.994 --> 00:42:42.355 - then, like, you you're gonna have to be 1241 00:42:42.355 --> 00:42:43.974 - an Olympic athlete at some point. 1242 00:42:44.594 --> 00:42:45.795 - Yeah. I don't I don't Well, I I 1243 00:42:45.795 --> 00:42:46.855 - mean, I think eventually, 1244 00:42:47.554 --> 00:42:48.534 - like, an ecosystem 1245 00:42:48.994 --> 00:42:52.030 - will develop that allows people to 1246 00:42:52.570 --> 00:42:54.349 - catch up to a degree. 1247 00:42:54.809 --> 00:42:56.570 - But the people that are gonna have the 1248 00:42:56.570 --> 00:42:57.630 - outside success 1249 00:42:58.329 --> 00:43:00.650 - are the are the the the people doing 1250 00:43:00.650 --> 00:43:04.005 - it Well, it'll be now. So a vendor 1251 00:43:04.005 --> 00:43:05.684 - will take this and they will pack it. 1252 00:43:05.684 --> 00:43:07.385 - And then the cost of that packaging 1253 00:43:07.764 --> 00:43:09.364 - will quite literally be the cost of that 1254 00:43:09.364 --> 00:43:10.885 - packaging. Like, you will literally have to pay 1255 00:43:10.885 --> 00:43:13.125 - more for it. Yeah. You will lose a 1256 00:43:13.125 --> 00:43:15.704 - bunch of flexibility. Your operations will be 1257 00:43:16.150 --> 00:43:18.630 - whatever they essentially enable them to be. And 1258 00:43:18.630 --> 00:43:20.889 - I think when people do that, you're abdicating 1259 00:43:21.030 --> 00:43:22.949 - control and you're saying that my fate is 1260 00:43:22.949 --> 00:43:24.949 - now like, I will accept whatever you hand 1261 00:43:24.949 --> 00:43:26.010 - me as my fate. 1262 00:43:26.309 --> 00:43:28.309 - And I think that that actually works. People 1263 00:43:28.309 --> 00:43:29.909 - can as as long as as long as 1264 00:43:29.909 --> 00:43:32.054 - people move in the direction you want and 1265 00:43:32.054 --> 00:43:33.414 - at a pace that you're comfortable with, I 1266 00:43:33.414 --> 00:43:35.175 - think that actually works for some people. And 1267 00:43:35.175 --> 00:43:37.014 - we've seen that with, you know, insert vendor 1268 00:43:37.014 --> 00:43:38.695 - name here and there. Yeah. I think when 1269 00:43:38.695 --> 00:43:40.875 - it doesn't serve you and, you know, like 1270 00:43:41.094 --> 00:43:43.094 - you know, so so Tom's day job, he's 1271 00:43:43.094 --> 00:43:45.255 - got things that he does because it didn't 1272 00:43:45.255 --> 00:43:45.755 - serve. 1273 00:43:46.769 --> 00:43:48.150 - Right? Like, I think it 1274 00:43:48.530 --> 00:43:50.289 - I I think it's not right for everybody, 1275 00:43:50.289 --> 00:43:51.410 - and people are gonna have to opt in. 1276 00:43:51.410 --> 00:43:52.930 - Like, am I gonna am I gonna float 1277 00:43:52.930 --> 00:43:55.090 - along the lazy river with, you know, with 1278 00:43:55.090 --> 00:43:56.469 - with my vendor, you know, 1279 00:43:56.849 --> 00:43:57.349 - floaty? 1280 00:43:57.969 --> 00:43:59.670 - Or am I gonna, you know, swim 1281 00:44:00.105 --> 00:44:01.465 - and go do it and and and go 1282 00:44:01.465 --> 00:44:02.605 - where I wanna go? 1283 00:44:02.905 --> 00:44:04.664 - And the the part that's cool is that 1284 00:44:04.664 --> 00:44:06.105 - not everyone has to have the same answer 1285 00:44:06.105 --> 00:44:07.625 - to that question. Like, there's no judgment. Like, 1286 00:44:07.625 --> 00:44:09.005 - sitting in a floaty is awesome. 1287 00:44:09.385 --> 00:44:11.385 - And and some of that's just a business 1288 00:44:11.385 --> 00:44:11.885 - decision 1289 00:44:12.344 --> 00:44:12.844 - of 1290 00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:14.260 - how different 1291 00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:15.619 - how differentiating 1292 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:18.900 - is this capability for me, and does it 1293 00:44:19.359 --> 00:44:22.260 - enable me to generate outsized revenue 1294 00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:23.380 - or not? 1295 00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:26.079 - And the industry is just not mature enough 1296 00:44:26.079 --> 00:44:27.974 - yet to answer that question. It's just we're 1297 00:44:27.974 --> 00:44:29.574 - just not there yet. I think we'll get 1298 00:44:29.574 --> 00:44:30.734 - there. But Yeah. 1299 00:44:31.574 --> 00:44:32.074 - Yeah. 1300 00:44:32.375 --> 00:44:34.295 - So what scares me, the other thing I 1301 00:44:34.295 --> 00:44:36.454 - was gonna say there, Yvonne, was when people 1302 00:44:36.454 --> 00:44:38.474 - say things when you say, like, okay. 1303 00:44:39.414 --> 00:44:40.855 - We're gonna get to the point where the 1304 00:44:40.855 --> 00:44:42.829 - AI does the coding and we just use 1305 00:44:42.829 --> 00:44:43.489 - the product, 1306 00:44:43.869 --> 00:44:46.349 - is that then we say we need systems 1307 00:44:46.349 --> 00:44:49.090 - level engineering, we need systems level thinking. 1308 00:44:49.630 --> 00:44:52.349 - But the only way I know to build 1309 00:44:52.349 --> 00:44:53.570 - systems level thinking 1310 00:44:54.110 --> 00:44:55.329 - is to build systems. 1311 00:44:56.445 --> 00:44:58.385 - I don't know any other way. 1312 00:44:59.085 --> 00:45:01.565 - I I I I literally I've been in 1313 00:45:01.565 --> 00:45:02.625 - the training world 1314 00:45:03.085 --> 00:45:04.765 - way before I came and when I was 1315 00:45:04.765 --> 00:45:06.545 - in the air force, I was teaching people 1316 00:45:06.765 --> 00:45:08.699 - radar systems and stuff like this. 1317 00:45:09.579 --> 00:45:11.679 - And literally, the only way I know 1318 00:45:12.300 --> 00:45:14.719 - how to teach people systems level thinking 1319 00:45:15.019 --> 00:45:16.859 - is to get them to go through the 1320 00:45:16.859 --> 00:45:17.359 - exercise 1321 00:45:18.059 --> 00:45:19.599 - of building a system. 1322 00:45:20.300 --> 00:45:23.335 - And when we throw off and when we 1323 00:45:23.335 --> 00:45:25.914 - throw off the system building to the AI, 1324 00:45:26.855 --> 00:45:29.015 - I don't know where the next generation of 1325 00:45:29.015 --> 00:45:29.515 - people 1326 00:45:29.974 --> 00:45:32.875 - who know how to build systems comes from. 1327 00:45:33.335 --> 00:45:35.515 - That's that's I think that's a yet unsolved 1328 00:45:35.575 --> 00:45:38.280 - problem because we know, like, we need lots 1329 00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.699 - of, like in the coding example, like, 1330 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:42.699 - senior developers are the most, 1331 00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:43.579 - successful 1332 00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.860 - with these tools right now. We are actually 1333 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:49.880 - we don't need as many junior developers, but 1334 00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.144 - without junior developers, how do we get senior 1335 00:45:52.144 --> 00:45:54.065 - developers? Like, that, I think, is a yet 1336 00:45:54.065 --> 00:45:56.704 - unsolved problem. I Well, I I I don't 1337 00:45:56.704 --> 00:45:57.764 - know the answer. Nobody, 1338 00:45:58.224 --> 00:46:01.105 - like, nobody builds a system by themselves anyway. 1339 00:46:01.105 --> 00:46:03.039 - Doesn't matter if you're the smartest guy at 1340 00:46:03.039 --> 00:46:05.440 - at Hyperscaler x. Somebody had to even if 1341 00:46:05.440 --> 00:46:06.880 - you came up with the whole company on 1342 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:07.460 - a whiteboard, 1343 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.239 - somebody had to go actually do it and 1344 00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:12.319 - it wasn't you. Like Yeah. And and it 1345 00:46:12.319 --> 00:46:13.839 - can be this I know there's a lot 1346 00:46:13.839 --> 00:46:15.440 - of there are people that think that I'm 1347 00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:17.034 - the smartest person in the company. I'll draw 1348 00:46:17.034 --> 00:46:18.954 - the white board. Everybody else will execute. It 1349 00:46:18.954 --> 00:46:21.135 - doesn't actually work like that. And so Never. 1350 00:46:21.675 --> 00:46:23.914 - Like if you if the idea of building 1351 00:46:23.914 --> 00:46:25.355 - a system is that you're the only one 1352 00:46:25.355 --> 00:46:27.514 - doing it, that's false. And so someone else 1353 00:46:27.514 --> 00:46:29.195 - is gonna be the built doing doing the 1354 00:46:29.195 --> 00:46:29.695 - building 1355 00:46:30.260 --> 00:46:32.739 - and Right. Like so so I guess what 1356 00:46:32.739 --> 00:46:33.800 - I'm saying is 1357 00:46:34.339 --> 00:46:36.579 - why couldn't you learn by analysis because you're 1358 00:46:36.579 --> 00:46:38.339 - not building it all yourself anyway. Even you 1359 00:46:38.339 --> 00:46:40.179 - might think you are but you're actually not. 1360 00:46:40.179 --> 00:46:42.420 - You're learning from other people's experience. You're seeing 1361 00:46:42.420 --> 00:46:44.679 - other people implement your things like, 1362 00:46:45.335 --> 00:46:47.335 - white people learn by analysis. But there's a 1363 00:46:47.335 --> 00:46:48.315 - difference between 1364 00:46:49.494 --> 00:46:51.654 - like, I'll tell you that when you sit 1365 00:46:51.654 --> 00:46:53.594 - in a room with 20 people 1366 00:46:54.135 --> 00:46:56.154 - and one person sitting in the back 1367 00:46:56.454 --> 00:46:58.154 - and not actually participating 1368 00:46:58.929 --> 00:47:01.030 - and doing any of the design work, 1369 00:47:01.329 --> 00:47:02.949 - taking on any of the components 1370 00:47:03.489 --> 00:47:05.750 - and figuring out how those components interact, 1371 00:47:06.449 --> 00:47:07.429 - they're not learning. 1372 00:47:08.530 --> 00:47:10.449 - And they're not gonna be successful in the 1373 00:47:10.449 --> 00:47:13.010 - long term. And the danger with AI that 1374 00:47:13.010 --> 00:47:15.275 - I see, one of the dangers I see 1375 00:47:15.275 --> 00:47:16.815 - is that people do that. 1376 00:47:17.355 --> 00:47:20.095 - Build me an app that does this. Sure. 1377 00:47:20.954 --> 00:47:21.454 - Okay. 1378 00:47:21.914 --> 00:47:24.235 - And then they're like, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, 1379 00:47:24.235 --> 00:47:26.414 - I'm gonna go analyze the code later. 1380 00:47:26.795 --> 00:47:28.329 - Trust me. You won't. 1381 00:47:28.630 --> 00:47:30.789 - Yep. It's gonna be Trust me. You won't. 1382 00:47:30.869 --> 00:47:32.630 - Was with that. Like, once you have to 1383 00:47:32.630 --> 00:47:34.250 - scale it, like, the 1384 00:47:35.190 --> 00:47:37.429 - even if AI is fast, like, reinventing the 1385 00:47:37.429 --> 00:47:38.710 - app every time you need to scale it 1386 00:47:38.710 --> 00:47:39.449 - a little bit 1387 00:47:39.989 --> 00:47:41.590 - Yeah. Probably not the the most optimal way 1388 00:47:41.590 --> 00:47:42.974 - to get there. So I I think you 1389 00:47:42.974 --> 00:47:44.375 - have to learn from it. I thought I 1390 00:47:44.375 --> 00:47:46.855 - thought Tom's comments earlier about, you know, start 1391 00:47:46.855 --> 00:47:48.635 - with AI and then let it, you know, 1392 00:47:48.695 --> 00:47:50.235 - learn from AI and then 1393 00:47:50.614 --> 00:47:52.215 - and then sort of iterate and move on. 1394 00:47:52.215 --> 00:47:53.735 - To me, that's consistent with how you learn 1395 00:47:53.735 --> 00:47:55.034 - anyway. Yep. 1396 00:47:57.280 --> 00:47:59.519 - Yeah. Yeah. But I I just don't I 1397 00:47:59.519 --> 00:48:00.339 - I get really, 1398 00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:02.339 - like, we can't be passive 1399 00:48:03.359 --> 00:48:04.099 - in this. 1400 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.219 - Right. Right? That's not our goal as humans. 1401 00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:09.619 - I think what we're learning, actually, 1402 00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:12.315 - is that folks that are being successful with 1403 00:48:12.614 --> 00:48:14.554 - AI, their cognitive load isn't decreasing. 1404 00:48:15.494 --> 00:48:16.394 - It's increasing. 1405 00:48:17.255 --> 00:48:19.675 - And this is a conversation for another show, 1406 00:48:19.974 --> 00:48:23.989 - but it's actually we're seeing increased burnout. And 1407 00:48:24.449 --> 00:48:27.030 - everybody who's effectively using AI 1408 00:48:28.210 --> 00:48:29.809 - and is deep into it says they're not 1409 00:48:29.809 --> 00:48:31.510 - working less, they're working more. 1410 00:48:31.889 --> 00:48:34.130 - And so there's a whole set of, like, 1411 00:48:34.130 --> 00:48:35.670 - socio technical problems 1412 00:48:36.255 --> 00:48:38.014 - that we're gonna have to figure out how 1413 00:48:38.014 --> 00:48:39.394 - to solve because 1414 00:48:40.734 --> 00:48:42.994 - our our brains need margin 1415 00:48:43.694 --> 00:48:46.414 - and you can't be doing high cognitive load 1416 00:48:46.414 --> 00:48:46.914 - tasks 1417 00:48:47.534 --> 00:48:49.989 - the entire day. You know, when I get 1418 00:48:49.989 --> 00:48:51.929 - when I get kind of in this 1419 00:48:52.549 --> 00:48:55.109 - brain fog space where I've overdone it, I 1420 00:48:55.109 --> 00:48:57.210 - go and, like, approve expense reports 1421 00:48:57.829 --> 00:48:59.289 - or do some kind of 1422 00:48:59.989 --> 00:49:03.785 - mundane routine task. You need new hobbies. I 1423 00:49:03.885 --> 00:49:05.724 - know. I mean, this is in my this 1424 00:49:05.724 --> 00:49:07.885 - is this is in my day job. I 1425 00:49:07.885 --> 00:49:10.125 - go for a walk. I water my plants. 1426 00:49:10.125 --> 00:49:11.825 - You know, something like that. 1427 00:49:13.644 --> 00:49:16.045 - And we've still got to have that kind 1428 00:49:16.045 --> 00:49:16.704 - of margin 1429 00:49:17.360 --> 00:49:19.920 - as humans to be able to function. And 1430 00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:21.599 - I we that's something else we've not figured 1431 00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:24.079 - out yet. So That's actually another show, and 1432 00:49:24.079 --> 00:49:26.320 - we should talk about that because that's so 1433 00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.079 - I I'll we'll do the other show, but 1434 00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:29.599 - I just wanna throw at something that that 1435 00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:31.199 - made me think of Yvonne. The the first 1436 00:49:31.199 --> 00:49:33.105 - time I ever took off an 1437 00:49:33.644 --> 00:49:35.965 - airplane, with myself at the controls. And I 1438 00:49:35.965 --> 00:49:37.644 - had my friend with me who is not 1439 00:49:37.644 --> 00:49:40.204 - an instructor, and and he was kind enough 1440 00:49:40.204 --> 00:49:41.664 - to let me learn some experience. 1441 00:49:42.045 --> 00:49:43.485 - I just remember it was and I don't 1442 00:49:43.485 --> 00:49:45.164 - know if y'all have ever fun, but, like, 1443 00:49:45.164 --> 00:49:46.684 - there is so many things going on at 1444 00:49:46.684 --> 00:49:48.059 - once. And the first time you do it, 1445 00:49:48.059 --> 00:49:50.460 - it is it is crazy. It is to 1446 00:49:50.460 --> 00:49:52.219 - experience pilots say, yeah, whatever. But when you're 1447 00:49:52.219 --> 00:49:53.500 - doing it for the first time and he 1448 00:49:53.500 --> 00:49:55.340 - made the comment, after we got up in 1449 00:49:55.340 --> 00:49:56.940 - the air and everything was fine. He's like, 1450 00:49:56.940 --> 00:49:59.019 - oh, you're and he's like he's like shouting 1451 00:49:59.019 --> 00:50:00.219 - at me and stuff. Like, do this. Don't 1452 00:50:00.219 --> 00:50:01.900 - do that. I'm like, what the and and 1453 00:50:01.900 --> 00:50:03.340 - he made the comment. He's like, yeah. Your 1454 00:50:03.340 --> 00:50:05.585 - CPU is like a 110, 120%. 1455 00:50:05.585 --> 00:50:07.664 - Right? And and I was like, oh, yeah. 1456 00:50:07.664 --> 00:50:09.125 - But but it was still 1457 00:50:09.664 --> 00:50:11.585 - that 110, 120% 1458 00:50:11.585 --> 00:50:14.405 - phase did end pretty quickly into the exercise. 1459 00:50:15.025 --> 00:50:16.304 - And then it dropped down to a more 1460 00:50:16.304 --> 00:50:19.510 - manageable 90 or 95. And so, like, that 1461 00:50:19.589 --> 00:50:20.730 - I I think the 1462 00:50:22.230 --> 00:50:24.550 - organizing yourself and and doing your work in 1463 00:50:24.550 --> 00:50:26.949 - a way that that acknowledges that is gonna 1464 00:50:26.949 --> 00:50:29.190 - be pretty critical. But if you if you're 1465 00:50:29.190 --> 00:50:30.550 - able to do it, you'll be able to 1466 00:50:30.550 --> 00:50:31.914 - go for the long haul and see the 1467 00:50:31.914 --> 00:50:33.434 - curves start to go back up. You know? 1468 00:50:33.434 --> 00:50:35.914 - Yeah. I'm not entirely certain AI is built 1469 00:50:35.914 --> 00:50:38.255 - that way. But, again, that's like we should 1470 00:50:38.554 --> 00:50:40.154 - we should actually do a whole school. That's 1471 00:50:40.154 --> 00:50:42.714 - an interesting discussion. We should get Mike back 1472 00:50:42.714 --> 00:50:43.214 - on 1473 00:50:44.394 --> 00:50:47.500 - to talk about that. Managing cognitive load when 1474 00:50:47.500 --> 00:50:50.400 - it comes to using AI systems. Love it. 1475 00:50:50.699 --> 00:50:51.839 - Yeah. Yeah. 1476 00:50:52.380 --> 00:50:53.359 - Thanks. Mike. 1477 00:50:55.739 --> 00:50:57.980 - My CPU is at a 110%. 1478 00:50:57.980 --> 00:50:58.934 - That one feels hard. 1479 00:51:00.215 --> 00:51:01.655 - Well, that's because we're at the end of 1480 00:51:01.655 --> 00:51:03.494 - this one. They just need to come back 1481 00:51:03.494 --> 00:51:05.695 - fresh after you've taken a walk or proof 1482 00:51:06.135 --> 00:51:07.675 - proof some expense for something. 1483 00:51:10.055 --> 00:51:12.539 - Scheduler thrashing in process scheduler. 1484 00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:15.579 - There you go. That's that's what it is. 1485 00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:17.799 - Alright. Cool. Well, I think we beat this 1486 00:51:17.799 --> 00:51:20.380 - horse till it's time to dismount it. 1487 00:51:21.799 --> 00:51:23.719 - We'll get Mike back on to talk about 1488 00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:24.619 - the other topic 1489 00:51:25.284 --> 00:51:27.364 - and find other cool things to talk about. 1490 00:51:27.364 --> 00:51:29.385 - So okay. Tom, say your word. 1491 00:51:30.005 --> 00:51:31.925 - The word is LinkedIn. That's where you can 1492 00:51:31.925 --> 00:51:33.545 - find me. That's where 1493 00:51:34.005 --> 00:51:35.545 - everybody can find Tom is LinkedIn. 1494 00:51:36.005 --> 00:51:36.505 - Yvonne. 1495 00:51:37.420 --> 00:51:37.920 - Yeah. 1496 00:51:38.300 --> 00:51:39.039 - On LinkedIn, 1497 00:51:39.579 --> 00:51:42.380 - I do more trolling of Twitter x these 1498 00:51:42.380 --> 00:51:44.300 - days than I do posting, but I am 1499 00:51:44.300 --> 00:51:46.880 - around. So, feel free to reach out. 1500 00:51:47.420 --> 00:51:49.724 - And, you where is your other podcast? What's 1501 00:51:49.724 --> 00:51:52.125 - going on? Oh, oh, the Cloud Gambit. Yeah. 1502 00:51:52.125 --> 00:51:53.565 - Over on Packet Pushers. I 1503 00:51:54.045 --> 00:51:56.845 - silly. I didn't mention it. Yeah. There we 1504 00:51:56.845 --> 00:51:59.965 - talk about cloudy stuff and AI stuff and, 1505 00:52:00.204 --> 00:52:01.885 - you know, more of this these kind of 1506 00:52:01.885 --> 00:52:03.724 - things, William Collins and I. We always have 1507 00:52:03.724 --> 00:52:04.889 - on an interesting guest, 1508 00:52:05.289 --> 00:52:06.429 - so check us out there. 1509 00:52:06.730 --> 00:52:08.889 - Awesome. And, Mike, I don't think you have 1510 00:52:08.889 --> 00:52:11.049 - any blogs or anything. Right? You're still kind 1511 00:52:11.049 --> 00:52:11.130 - of 1512 00:52:11.929 --> 00:52:13.869 - I backed off the socials. Like, 1513 00:52:14.409 --> 00:52:16.510 - link LinkedIn is where I'm at. Just 1514 00:52:17.144 --> 00:52:18.905 - if you're gonna reach out to me, don't 1515 00:52:18.905 --> 00:52:22.505 - use AI. And for god's sake, please don't 1516 00:52:22.905 --> 00:52:25.324 - it cannot be a sentence, a carriage return, 1517 00:52:25.385 --> 00:52:27.244 - a sentence, a carriage return. 1518 00:52:27.784 --> 00:52:29.625 - There's, like, a bunch of hashtags at the 1519 00:52:29.625 --> 00:52:31.704 - end. Like, just be a be a person, 1520 00:52:31.704 --> 00:52:32.844 - and I'm happy to. 1521 00:52:33.679 --> 00:52:36.799 - And and I will just add the the 1522 00:52:36.799 --> 00:52:37.299 - high 1523 00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:40.960 - by itself with nothing else is also not 1524 00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:41.460 - recommended. 1525 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:48.554 - I used to have this friend who it 1526 00:52:48.635 --> 00:52:49.994 - people would walk up to him and say, 1527 00:52:49.994 --> 00:52:51.775 - yo. And he'd say, yo. Yo. 1528 00:52:52.714 --> 00:52:55.135 - Like, what? What am I supposed to do? 1529 00:52:55.514 --> 00:52:58.255 - You have intelligence. There's some intelligence right there. 1530 00:52:59.434 --> 00:53:01.530 - Like, what? What do I do with that? 1531 00:53:01.849 --> 00:53:03.610 - Alright. Well, I'm Russ White. You can find 1532 00:53:03.610 --> 00:53:05.789 - me here at the hedge on rule11.tech. 1533 00:53:06.170 --> 00:53:09.309 - Occasionally on x, I log in to LinkedIn 1534 00:53:09.530 --> 00:53:10.590 - every now and again 1535 00:53:11.050 --> 00:53:11.550 - and 1536 00:53:12.010 --> 00:53:14.809 - packet pushers and here and there. And so 1537 00:53:14.809 --> 00:53:16.170 - feel free to reach out to me if 1538 00:53:16.170 --> 00:53:17.864 - you have questions, thoughts, or whatever. 1539 00:53:18.325 --> 00:53:19.925 - And we know that we live in an 1540 00:53:19.925 --> 00:53:21.144 - attention driven economy. 1541 00:53:21.684 --> 00:53:23.765 - And so, therefore, we thank you for listening 1542 00:53:23.765 --> 00:53:25.204 - all the way to this the bitter end 1543 00:53:25.204 --> 00:53:27.045 - of this episode of The Hedge, and we 1544 00:53:27.045 --> 00:53:28.105 - will catch you next 1545 00:53:41.809 --> 00:53:42.017 - time.