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Join us as we gather around the hedge,

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where we dig into technology, business, and culture

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with the finest minds in computer networking.

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Well, hello, Audrey.

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Audrey joins us today from Austin, Texas.

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Yeah. Audrey says hi. Audrey's the plant.

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I actually Hey, Walter.

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I I listened to,

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a few days ago just to get oriented

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to your,

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your show and heard you talking about Audrey.

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Okay. First came up talking about Little Shop

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of Horrors or what's the name of that

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plant? And I was, it's Audrey. It's Audrey.

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Yes. Well, there you go.

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Alright.

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So

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and that other voice you hear in the

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background, how are you doing, Tom, before I

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do that? I'm great, Russ. You're great. Awesome.

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And that other voice you hear in the

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background, you probably recognize it.

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I probably don't need to even say,

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it's Jeff Doyle.

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Jeff is guys.

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Jeff is so well known. He needs no

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introduction.

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Is that the way is that the way

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it works? I'm not sure. I'm not sure

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whether that's

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how true that is, but,

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it's it's really nice to actually be a

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guest.

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Russ, you've been the guest on our podcast.

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Mine and Jeff Tensor is, between two nerds

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podcast so many times

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that,

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it's it might be a little disoriented

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to me because I'm used to asking you

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questions and they just shut it out, shutting

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up and letting you talk. So,

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you know, you'll you'll have to kinda pull

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me back into where I'm what I'm supposed

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to be doing if if I start asking

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you questions. And Oh, that's it's okay. That's

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okay. Just ask just ask Tom and Audrey.

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There you go. Tom.

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Yes. Tom.

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Audrey has Audrey has the answers here. Audrey

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has the answers here. Alright. So today, we're

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talking about Sonic. So maybe we start with

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an introduction of what Sonic is. I'll start

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by saying, it's not new. This is really,

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really old.

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I mean, I don't say in the IT

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world. I mean, I've been around Sonic since

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LinkedIn

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or before LinkedIn, and I don't actually

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remember what you said. Old,

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in in, Internet development terms, that is. Right.

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Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It it, came about

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in 2016.

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So

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that's what, ten years ago. So that yeah.

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That's pretty old. That's pretty old in Internet

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terms. That's right. So

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what is Sonic, Jeff? What are we what

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are we trying to accomplish? What's our goal?

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Yeah. Well, it's all about a hedgehog.

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And,

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I that's my standard little joke for for

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anybody that wants to explore Sonic, you have

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to be kind of careful when you Google

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the word Sonic. Otherwise, you just,

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get a bunch of responses about an online

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game involving a hedgehog.

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But, you have to say Sonic operating system.

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But Sonic is,

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is, software for open networking in the cloud.

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That's the acronym.

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And,

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this was,

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as

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the name implies,

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it's open software.

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It's an open operating system

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and it was developed

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by Microsoft, just I'm a I'm a history

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buff so I always have to go into

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the history,

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developed by Microsoft, specifically

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their Azure team,

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as I mentioned a while ago in 2016,

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because

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they were

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they had these immensely complex,

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data centers

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and they were having a hard time managing

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it, especially

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for multi vendor and and such, you know,

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having to manage,

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with different operating systems and they wanted sort

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of one operating system to rule them all.

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And so

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out came Sonic and and,

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it it was pretty crude in the beginning.

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And especially after it it was released into

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the wild,

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which happened in 2022,

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I believe, if my memory is right. And

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that's really the significant part of the history

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of Sonic

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was,

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was Microsoft released it,

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to the OCP,

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open compute project.

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And, and it's been

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been, open software ever since then, open for

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people to develop, open for people to download

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and use.

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But the

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the major major concept

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of Sonic

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is

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that it interfaces

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with any hardware.

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So you can, your

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as is as you should be able to

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do, your hardware infrastructure

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should become an abstraction

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to your operating system.

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So, you know, there's there's

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an agnostic,

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view towards what hardware you're running in. And,

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you know, Sonic will run on,

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broad

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all kinds of ASICs. Broadcom, Marvel,

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Cavium,

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for gosh. There's others.

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So so the

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yeah. You know, VM. Yeah. And originally Barefoot

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as well because there was a p four

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when Barefoot was around as a chipset.

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Absolutely.

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So but I think the thing that people

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need to understand is this is not a

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replacement for Linux.

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This is something that lays on top of

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Linux

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that essentially

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and this is gonna be rather, like,

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extremely

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oversimplified,

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but it kind of plays the role of

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DirectX

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or a driver system

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that allows you to communicate

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to

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the forwarding engine chipsets that you might put

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in a router or a switch.

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Yeah. Like, it's not it's not precisely a

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driver. That's not what it is. But if

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you wanna put it slot it in your

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head someplace in the ecosystem,

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you can think of it as something like

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DirectX or something like that. There's like a

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language, an API, an interface,

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a set of software, and that software figures

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out how to talk to the chipset that

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you wanna talk to. Now you can fix

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all that, Jeff.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. I mean,

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what you say is true. I was sort

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of

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processing some of it as as you explained

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it, you know, but absolutely. It's not a

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replacement for for Linux.

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In fact,

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Sonic is built on it runs on top

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of Linux, Debian Linux to be specific.

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And, it's written in c,

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c plus c plus plus, I believe.

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Different parts are c and different parts of

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c plus plus Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah. And,

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and and maybe we'll get into that in

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a bit.

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But,

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but yeah, it's it,

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the real secret sauce,

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in my opinion, of of Sonic. And I'm

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sort of looking at it too late,

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two directions,

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both looking down to the hardware, to the

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ASICs in particular, and then looking up to,

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oh, what does it interface with? How do

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you use it?

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Looking down and the reason it is hardware

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agnostic and runs in all these different chips

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yet chip chipsets that I mentioned,

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is a component,

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called the sync d container,

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within Sonic. And and oh, that's a piece

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early on I should have mentioned.

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A key part of the Sonic architecture

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is that it's all built on Docker containers.

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So it's it's it's highly modular.

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Advantages there is, you know,

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you've heard that song and dance for for

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years on, you know, what's what's important about

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containers

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is you could take one out of service,

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you know, or it could fail or whatever,

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you know, whatever that functional container is, and

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it doesn't bring the whole system down.

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That's not a new concept at all. I

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mean, we've been building modular operating systems for

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routers for,

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since the Well the nineties. Yeah.

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But most of the commercial ones are not.

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Most of the commercial ones at the time

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Sonic came out,

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the idea of a modular network operating system

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was kind of

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I mean, it wasn't new, but it wasn't

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widely deployed. Like, you didn't have EVO. You

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didn't have

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you didn't have a lot of,

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of

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CRS operating system stuff

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out there. It was Cisco iOS classic, which

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is monolithic. It was Junos,

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which was monolithic. It was a I I

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I would disagree.

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Junos, that was that was actually the I

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mean, I was running around back at the

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turn of the century,

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when I was when I was with Juniper,

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and Juniper was a start up,

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kinda knocking,

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Cisco IOS because they were very monolithic.

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And, and Junos was was built,

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with modularity in mind. And,

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but,

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you know, how much modularity

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is open to question, and it was still

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hardware specific.

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Oh, and maybe a,

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an interesting maybe sonic relevant piece that,

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that's a bit of trivia,

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early on because I was I there's still

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a little, Junos,

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Kool Aid floating around in my veins.

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I actually,

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was very vocal internally

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at Juniper

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when it was still a little small startup

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that, you know, this this operating system is

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great, we should be selling just the operating

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system and adapt it to whatever

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white box you want. And of course they

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were very hardware

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oriented at the time and, you know, decided

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I was an idiot and, and,

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that went nowhere. But,

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but I thought it was a good idea,

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and here we are talking about Sonic all

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of a sudden.

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But, anyway, getting back to,

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to

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the the whole idea of this sync d

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container,

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I sort of went off on a tangent

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there, the secret sauce within that is an

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API

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called the set, software abstraction interface, s a

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I.

279
00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:33,709
And anytime you talk about Sonic, you you

280
00:10:33,709 --> 00:10:35,309
have to talk about the s a s

281
00:10:35,309 --> 00:10:38,235
a I. And that's what actually talks to,

282
00:10:38,774 --> 00:10:40,715
the ASIC SDK

283
00:10:41,415 --> 00:10:42,315
for whatever,

284
00:10:44,535 --> 00:10:45,754
hardware you're

285
00:10:46,535 --> 00:10:48,154
you're, talking to.

286
00:10:48,549 --> 00:10:51,190
And, so that's your interface right there and

287
00:10:51,190 --> 00:10:53,690
that becomes where the you get the hardware

288
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:54,250
abstraction,

289
00:10:55,670 --> 00:10:57,269
coming from is is,

290
00:10:58,470 --> 00:10:59,450
is with

291
00:11:00,230 --> 00:11:02,170
that interface between the SAI

292
00:11:02,710 --> 00:11:04,250
and the, ASIC

293
00:11:05,245 --> 00:11:05,725
SDK.

294
00:11:06,205 --> 00:11:06,705
But

295
00:11:07,325 --> 00:11:09,485
that's at the lower end. At the upper

296
00:11:09,485 --> 00:11:09,985
end,

297
00:11:10,524 --> 00:11:12,764
the other piece to really be aware of

298
00:11:12,764 --> 00:11:16,225
with Sonic is that it has a CLI.

299
00:11:16,365 --> 00:11:17,345
You can manage

300
00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:19,220
individual devices,

301
00:11:19,759 --> 00:11:22,080
using a CLI, but it's not designed for

302
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,700
that. It's designed for automation.

303
00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:27,620
And it's designed, you know, for your entire

304
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:29,779
infrastructure to be,

305
00:11:30,535 --> 00:11:32,615
you know, anytime you start talking about automation,

306
00:11:32,615 --> 00:11:34,615
you hear those buzzwords, you know, to to

307
00:11:34,615 --> 00:11:35,115
be,

308
00:11:36,695 --> 00:11:38,475
managed as a holistic

309
00:11:38,855 --> 00:11:39,355
entity.

310
00:11:40,934 --> 00:11:42,875
You know, so so you've got

311
00:11:43,220 --> 00:11:44,519
a management container,

312
00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:47,860
that has a rest server in it, and

313
00:11:47,860 --> 00:11:48,600
you you

314
00:11:49,059 --> 00:11:50,440
can manage Sonic,

315
00:11:51,139 --> 00:11:53,139
through this rest server. You can you can

316
00:11:53,139 --> 00:11:55,320
directly manage, the databases,

317
00:11:56,259 --> 00:11:56,759
in,

318
00:11:58,019 --> 00:11:58,679
in the

319
00:11:59,195 --> 00:12:00,254
Redis server.

320
00:12:00,955 --> 00:12:03,034
Kind of the brains of Sonic is is

321
00:12:03,034 --> 00:12:03,355
a,

322
00:12:04,235 --> 00:12:07,855
is a database container that's built around Redis.

323
00:12:09,355 --> 00:12:09,855
And,

324
00:12:10,955 --> 00:12:11,855
yeah, it's

325
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:13,769
built for automation.

326
00:12:14,389 --> 00:12:16,009
It's built for highly complex,

327
00:12:16,950 --> 00:12:17,690
data centers,

328
00:12:18,470 --> 00:12:18,970
and,

329
00:12:19,830 --> 00:12:23,110
and, it is something that there's more and

330
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:24,649
more interest coming out

331
00:12:25,544 --> 00:12:27,945
about Sonic for enterprises, and I think there's

332
00:12:27,945 --> 00:12:30,445
a lot of business opportunity there.

333
00:12:31,144 --> 00:12:32,365
Yeah. It's interesting.

334
00:12:33,304 --> 00:12:35,544
When I first started encountering Sonic, a lot

335
00:12:35,544 --> 00:12:37,485
of the problems we had were around

336
00:12:38,264 --> 00:12:39,004
the performance

337
00:12:39,464 --> 00:12:40,125
of pulling

338
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:41,700
routes

339
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,820
out of the routing table and into

340
00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,100
the into the the ASIC

341
00:12:48,799 --> 00:12:49,700
via that,

342
00:12:51,519 --> 00:12:53,759
via SciDB and all of the stuff that

343
00:12:53,759 --> 00:12:55,845
goes on in there. It was a rather

344
00:12:55,845 --> 00:12:56,825
complex process.

345
00:12:58,325 --> 00:13:00,085
And I don't know. Has that changed a

346
00:13:00,085 --> 00:13:01,065
lot, Tom?

347
00:13:01,524 --> 00:13:03,685
Or Jeff, do you know? Have there been

348
00:13:03,845 --> 00:13:05,365
has there been a lot of work in

349
00:13:05,365 --> 00:13:06,264
that space?

350
00:13:06,644 --> 00:13:08,429
I can't imagine there wouldn't be.

351
00:13:08,830 --> 00:13:10,909
There's been some people have people have tried

352
00:13:10,909 --> 00:13:12,210
to address it. I don't know

353
00:13:12,589 --> 00:13:14,450
that Sonic is used anywhere.

354
00:13:15,070 --> 00:13:16,509
Well, I shouldn't say I don't know that

355
00:13:16,509 --> 00:13:17,570
Sonic is used,

356
00:13:18,110 --> 00:13:20,909
on hardware in places where route count is

357
00:13:20,909 --> 00:13:22,735
really a critical thing. Like, I don't I

358
00:13:22,735 --> 00:13:24,495
don't personally know of any deployments where we're

359
00:13:24,495 --> 00:13:25,634
putting Internet scale,

360
00:13:26,335 --> 00:13:29,455
routes into a, into a sonic box. But,

361
00:13:29,774 --> 00:13:31,774
but but I have noticed in the, in

362
00:13:31,774 --> 00:13:33,215
the community, there have been a couple of

363
00:13:33,215 --> 00:13:34,894
people talking about, hey. We gotta we gotta

364
00:13:34,894 --> 00:13:37,440
do something about this. Okay. Yeah. It's interesting.

365
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,299
It's just interesting to me because that was

366
00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:41,839
now another thing that we need to realize

367
00:13:41,839 --> 00:13:43,600
about Sonic is it's not a routing stack.

368
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:44,980
There's no routing stack

369
00:13:45,759 --> 00:13:47,700
in integral to Sonic.

370
00:13:48,159 --> 00:13:50,659
You run BRS or you run FR routing.

371
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:51,620
And

372
00:13:52,394 --> 00:13:53,535
interestingly enough,

373
00:13:54,075 --> 00:13:54,575
because

374
00:13:55,035 --> 00:13:57,435
from what I remember, Sonic is very user

375
00:13:57,435 --> 00:13:58,495
space oriented,

376
00:13:59,195 --> 00:14:01,675
they decided not to pull routes off of

377
00:14:01,675 --> 00:14:03,835
NetLinks or off I'm sorry, off of the

378
00:14:03,835 --> 00:14:04,335
kernel.

379
00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:07,620
Is that still true? It's still pulled off

380
00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:08,120
of

381
00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:10,360
the FPM, like, for Zebra

382
00:14:10,820 --> 00:14:12,440
or whatever you're using,

383
00:14:13,059 --> 00:14:15,399
whether it's BERT or FR routing or whatever.

384
00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:16,600
They're

385
00:14:17,379 --> 00:14:18,600
like, it's a different

386
00:14:19,345 --> 00:14:21,424
it's a different route pull than from the

387
00:14:21,424 --> 00:14:21,924
kernel.

388
00:14:23,024 --> 00:14:25,504
Yeah. It's, you know, if if you're running

389
00:14:25,504 --> 00:14:26,004
BGP,

390
00:14:27,024 --> 00:14:29,445
you know, there's a BGP container,

391
00:14:30,144 --> 00:14:31,845
and and that's basically,

392
00:14:32,625 --> 00:14:33,524
Zebra based.

393
00:14:34,559 --> 00:14:36,960
You know? And you can manage there's there's

394
00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:37,460
actually,

395
00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:39,779
a,

396
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,800
different mode, two different modes you can run

397
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,320
Sonic in. You can run it in a

398
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,125
unified mode, which you really should be doing

399
00:14:49,125 --> 00:14:50,264
in a production network,

400
00:14:51,524 --> 00:14:53,865
and but you could also run it in,

401
00:14:54,485 --> 00:14:57,605
split mode where you're managing all of your

402
00:14:57,605 --> 00:14:59,625
routes via f r r,

403
00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:02,200
and,

404
00:15:03,460 --> 00:15:05,860
you know, you you somewhat defeat the purpose

405
00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:08,100
of Sonic by doing that, but but there's

406
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:08,600
also,

407
00:15:10,259 --> 00:15:11,240
some rash

408
00:15:11,540 --> 00:15:14,360
some rationale behind it. There's there's, some,

409
00:15:15,620 --> 00:15:16,360
if you're

410
00:15:17,164 --> 00:15:19,824
running some complex features that are not

411
00:15:20,204 --> 00:15:21,504
supported directly,

412
00:15:23,084 --> 00:15:23,584
with

413
00:15:24,044 --> 00:15:26,365
with Sonic yet, you know, there that you

414
00:15:26,524 --> 00:15:27,745
that's in zebra.

415
00:15:28,924 --> 00:15:30,500
You you know, you may need to run-in

416
00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:31,000
split

417
00:15:31,379 --> 00:15:34,019
mode. But, I I disagree I disagree with

418
00:15:34,019 --> 00:15:35,399
that just a little bit. I think,

419
00:15:35,779 --> 00:15:36,679
it's a configuration.

420
00:15:37,139 --> 00:15:39,379
It's it's a con configuration is what's affected

421
00:15:39,379 --> 00:15:41,639
there, not route download, not any data plan.

422
00:15:42,324 --> 00:15:43,524
And so really, it's how do you wanna

423
00:15:43,524 --> 00:15:44,964
configure it? Do you wanna do it with

424
00:15:44,964 --> 00:15:46,485
sonic CLI commands or do you wanna do

425
00:15:46,485 --> 00:15:47,865
it with an fr.com?

426
00:15:48,324 --> 00:15:50,084
And like you mentioned, Jeff, it's kind of,

427
00:15:50,084 --> 00:15:52,164
do you want access to features that are

428
00:15:52,164 --> 00:15:54,164
newer in frr? Yeah. Or, you know, if

429
00:15:54,164 --> 00:15:55,445
it's been in there a while and it's

430
00:15:55,445 --> 00:15:56,985
a basic basic thing,

431
00:15:57,740 --> 00:15:59,259
then it'll be it'll be there. But there's

432
00:15:59,259 --> 00:16:01,019
but there's an integration cost. Right? They have

433
00:16:01,019 --> 00:16:02,779
someone has to go into Sonic and and

434
00:16:02,779 --> 00:16:04,879
add the FRR feature into the configuration

435
00:16:05,259 --> 00:16:06,320
language of Sonic.

436
00:16:06,779 --> 00:16:08,460
So Mhmm. I I I think there I

437
00:16:08,460 --> 00:16:10,875
don't it doesn't there's no performance penalty. There's

438
00:16:11,355 --> 00:16:13,754
no, it's just how, you know, how integrated

439
00:16:13,754 --> 00:16:15,434
do you wanna be. And if you need

440
00:16:15,434 --> 00:16:17,754
even one feature that FRR has that Sonic

441
00:16:17,754 --> 00:16:20,235
hasn't yet integrated, then you actually are forced

442
00:16:20,235 --> 00:16:21,294
into split mode.

443
00:16:21,754 --> 00:16:22,254
But

444
00:16:22,955 --> 00:16:23,455
yeah.

445
00:16:24,779 --> 00:16:25,279
Yeah.

446
00:16:26,220 --> 00:16:28,379
I I I agree with that, and,

447
00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:29,360
I think

448
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:31,820
where I was coming from is is, you

449
00:16:31,820 --> 00:16:34,220
know, the you see a lot of sonic

450
00:16:34,220 --> 00:16:36,700
advocates saying, you know, you're sort of defeating

451
00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:37,759
the purpose of,

452
00:16:39,235 --> 00:16:42,115
of sonic by, you know, going into split

453
00:16:42,115 --> 00:16:43,095
mode. But then

454
00:16:43,475 --> 00:16:46,195
you get immediately into but, you know, if

455
00:16:46,195 --> 00:16:47,654
you need these advanced features,

456
00:16:48,595 --> 00:16:50,834
then you gotta Yeah. I could I could

457
00:16:50,834 --> 00:16:52,034
see where people are coming from because you

458
00:16:52,115 --> 00:16:53,970
then you have to manage two configuration files.

459
00:16:53,970 --> 00:16:55,809
Right? That's what I was thinking. Right? You're

460
00:16:55,809 --> 00:16:57,649
you're automating two things, and you gotta make

461
00:16:57,649 --> 00:16:58,629
sure that you've

462
00:16:59,089 --> 00:17:01,169
made those two things do the right thing

463
00:17:01,169 --> 00:17:03,009
at the same time. Yeah. And you've got

464
00:17:03,009 --> 00:17:05,250
to be very careful careful with your,

465
00:17:05,650 --> 00:17:07,349
you know, you're going to want to be,

466
00:17:08,375 --> 00:17:10,055
I I never know how to pronounce the

467
00:17:10,055 --> 00:17:10,555
acronym.

468
00:17:10,934 --> 00:17:11,994
VTY shell.

469
00:17:12,535 --> 00:17:14,535
Yes. VTY shell. Yeah. And,

470
00:17:15,095 --> 00:17:17,734
you know, you're doing that with FRR, and

471
00:17:17,734 --> 00:17:19,815
and you've gotta be very careful that those

472
00:17:19,815 --> 00:17:21,674
configurations are safe because

473
00:17:22,390 --> 00:17:24,069
they could be lost on reboot and all

474
00:17:24,069 --> 00:17:24,970
that sort of thing.

475
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:27,349
And yeah. Or v two or,

476
00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:28,329
or

477
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:32,970
command d or the the the conf d

478
00:17:33,029 --> 00:17:35,894
thing, management d, which is all new in

479
00:17:35,894 --> 00:17:37,894
MR routing. Yeah. Which is a different way

480
00:17:37,894 --> 00:17:39,115
of doing things. Yeah.

481
00:17:39,654 --> 00:17:40,154
So,

482
00:17:40,535 --> 00:17:43,035
yeah, I think that there is more complexity

483
00:17:43,335 --> 00:17:44,715
in using split mode,

484
00:17:45,255 --> 00:17:47,414
but I also understand, like, you're just not

485
00:17:47,414 --> 00:17:49,559
gonna get. But this is something about Linux

486
00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:51,660
networking that people like, when you disaggregate,

487
00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:56,220
it's hard to remember sometimes that, like,

488
00:17:56,759 --> 00:17:58,140
up until very recently,

489
00:17:58,599 --> 00:18:00,779
if our routing, if you were in VTYSH,

490
00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:02,380
you couldn't tell

491
00:18:03,154 --> 00:18:06,454
VTYSH the ping command integrated into v VTYSH

492
00:18:07,234 --> 00:18:09,015
to use a source interface.

493
00:18:09,875 --> 00:18:12,294
Yeah. Because it's a separate piece of software.

494
00:18:12,835 --> 00:18:15,474
It's like it's completely separate. Now there's a

495
00:18:15,474 --> 00:18:17,039
PR out to fix that and make it

496
00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:19,859
where it uses the native and just transmutes

497
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:20,659
the commands

498
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,639
from v two y s h and feeds

499
00:18:22,639 --> 00:18:23,380
them into

500
00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:26,399
the native ping command that's running on the

501
00:18:26,399 --> 00:18:28,740
Linux. But you'll find this in many cases.

502
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:30,884
Like, you cannot configure

503
00:18:31,184 --> 00:18:33,204
unicast RPF and FR routing.

504
00:18:34,065 --> 00:18:37,204
Why? Because that is a forwarding plane thing

505
00:18:37,664 --> 00:18:39,845
that has to be configured in the forwarding

506
00:18:39,904 --> 00:18:40,404
plane

507
00:18:40,865 --> 00:18:42,785
if the routing stack does not own the

508
00:18:42,785 --> 00:18:46,039
forwarding plane. Yep. And so you've gotta drop

509
00:18:46,039 --> 00:18:47,820
to the forwarding plane to do that configuration.

510
00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:50,299
And so a lot of people get like

511
00:18:50,519 --> 00:18:52,220
they're so used to the Cisco,

512
00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:53,019
iOS,

513
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:53,820
Junos

514
00:18:54,839 --> 00:18:55,339
paradigm

515
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:57,740
where everything is unified,

516
00:18:58,394 --> 00:19:00,494
and you do everything in one place.

517
00:19:01,035 --> 00:19:02,894
And then you get in this world where

518
00:19:03,035 --> 00:19:04,734
the routing stack is a daemon.

519
00:19:05,035 --> 00:19:07,914
The interface to the to the at forwarding

520
00:19:07,914 --> 00:19:10,474
engine is a daemon. It's running in user

521
00:19:10,474 --> 00:19:10,974
space.

522
00:19:11,299 --> 00:19:13,460
And then the forwarding plane itself is in

523
00:19:13,460 --> 00:19:15,220
a daemon. It's like or it's in it's

524
00:19:15,220 --> 00:19:17,700
in kernel space, and you're like, oh, I've

525
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:20,179
gotta go configure my verfs in two different

526
00:19:20,179 --> 00:19:21,400
places. Well,

527
00:19:22,419 --> 00:19:24,194
you know, I I don't know what to

528
00:19:24,194 --> 00:19:25,714
tell you. There's the routing side of the

529
00:19:25,714 --> 00:19:26,214
verf,

530
00:19:26,515 --> 00:19:28,674
and there's the forwarding plane side of the

531
00:19:28,674 --> 00:19:29,174
verf.

532
00:19:29,474 --> 00:19:31,154
And some of that stuff can be done

533
00:19:31,154 --> 00:19:32,295
automatically, but

534
00:19:32,674 --> 00:19:34,355
quite frankly, a lot of times, you don't

535
00:19:34,355 --> 00:19:35,494
want it done automatically.

536
00:19:35,899 --> 00:19:36,720
You you kinda want

537
00:19:37,579 --> 00:19:39,500
there's a reason that you're doing it that

538
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:40,000
way.

539
00:19:40,779 --> 00:19:42,380
So yeah. So I think this is a

540
00:19:42,380 --> 00:19:44,700
paradigm shift for people who are thinking about

541
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:47,819
using Sonic. Yeah. And and and that's that's

542
00:19:47,819 --> 00:19:48,720
one of

543
00:19:49,234 --> 00:19:50,434
one of several,

544
00:19:53,075 --> 00:19:55,575
I don't wanna say roadblocks, but considerations

545
00:19:55,955 --> 00:19:58,835
if you're considering Sonic is is, you know,

546
00:19:58,835 --> 00:20:00,994
that that that it really is a different

547
00:20:00,994 --> 00:20:01,734
way of thinking

548
00:20:02,230 --> 00:20:03,750
about the network. You know, for all of

549
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:04,889
the the advantages,

550
00:20:05,829 --> 00:20:07,529
you know, the vendor independence

551
00:20:07,829 --> 00:20:10,250
and, you know, it'd be you know, orientation

552
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:11,130
towards,

553
00:20:11,669 --> 00:20:13,769
automation and all of that sort of thing.

554
00:20:14,865 --> 00:20:16,644
You know, one of the challenges

555
00:20:17,025 --> 00:20:18,704
is that it's kind of a kind of

556
00:20:18,704 --> 00:20:20,785
learning curve and a different way of thinking

557
00:20:20,785 --> 00:20:21,265
for your frontline,

558
00:20:24,065 --> 00:20:25,765
frontline operations people.

559
00:20:26,464 --> 00:20:26,964
Yeah.

560
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,500
Which, by the way, I think is healthy.

561
00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:30,539
Personally

562
00:20:31,079 --> 00:20:32,759
Yeah. I think it's healthy. I I think

563
00:20:32,759 --> 00:20:34,599
it's a much better it's like the way

564
00:20:34,599 --> 00:20:36,679
we should have always thought about network operating

565
00:20:36,679 --> 00:20:39,480
system. Whether or not you particularly like Sonic's

566
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:39,980
implementation

567
00:20:40,279 --> 00:20:41,259
or not is beyond

568
00:20:41,605 --> 00:20:42,904
the question of operationally,

569
00:20:44,005 --> 00:20:46,085
you should really be thinking about the forwarding

570
00:20:46,085 --> 00:20:47,384
plane separate from

571
00:20:47,764 --> 00:20:50,005
the routing daemon separate for like, these are

572
00:20:50,005 --> 00:20:50,904
different things.

573
00:20:51,204 --> 00:20:51,704
Absolutely.

574
00:20:52,804 --> 00:20:53,304
Absolutely.

575
00:20:53,605 --> 00:20:55,224
They should be different in your head.

576
00:20:56,410 --> 00:20:58,490
Right? And Yes. You know, and and like

577
00:20:58,490 --> 00:21:00,590
I said early on, and the this is,

578
00:21:01,930 --> 00:21:03,150
I talked about the Juno's,

579
00:21:04,250 --> 00:21:05,930
Kool Aid still kind of flowing in my

580
00:21:05,930 --> 00:21:07,710
veins. A lot of Apstra

581
00:21:08,434 --> 00:21:10,914
Kool Aid is still, in my veins too.

582
00:21:10,914 --> 00:21:12,294
And when I was with Apstra,

583
00:21:12,835 --> 00:21:13,634
you know, we were,

584
00:21:14,035 --> 00:21:15,734
talking very much about

585
00:21:16,434 --> 00:21:16,934
abstracting

586
00:21:17,394 --> 00:21:18,134
the infrastructure.

587
00:21:18,994 --> 00:21:20,515
You know, the hardware layer should,

588
00:21:21,140 --> 00:21:23,140
should there should be an abstraction of that

589
00:21:23,140 --> 00:21:25,700
so that you don't really care what hardware

590
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:26,360
is running.

591
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:29,460
You know, it you should be able to

592
00:21:29,460 --> 00:21:31,140
change these things out and and,

593
00:21:31,860 --> 00:21:34,180
you know, still have your operating system run

594
00:21:34,180 --> 00:21:35,160
it. And and,

595
00:21:38,255 --> 00:21:40,174
now I lost my thought about what lost

596
00:21:40,174 --> 00:21:42,255
my train of thought about why I was

597
00:21:42,255 --> 00:21:43,394
even saying that,

598
00:21:44,095 --> 00:21:44,595
but

599
00:21:45,134 --> 00:21:46,575
But no. But but it's the way you

600
00:21:46,575 --> 00:21:48,335
think about being in the in the in

601
00:21:48,335 --> 00:21:49,075
your seventies.

602
00:21:49,779 --> 00:21:51,380
So but but I mean, that's what I

603
00:21:51,380 --> 00:21:53,220
think where you're getting with what you were

604
00:21:53,220 --> 00:21:54,980
driving towards there, and correct me if I'm

605
00:21:54,980 --> 00:21:56,980
wrong, but was that that is the way

606
00:21:56,980 --> 00:21:59,460
Sonic thinks about things. Yeah. And that's the

607
00:21:59,460 --> 00:22:00,839
shift you have to make

608
00:22:01,474 --> 00:22:02,994
if you're going to use this kind of

609
00:22:02,994 --> 00:22:05,075
thing. You is that that is what, you

610
00:22:05,075 --> 00:22:06,775
know, that your infrastructure

611
00:22:07,315 --> 00:22:07,815
is

612
00:22:08,914 --> 00:22:10,215
a holistic entity.

613
00:22:10,674 --> 00:22:12,775
You know? It's not a bunch of nodes,

614
00:22:13,715 --> 00:22:16,000
which, you know, every CLI jockey in the

615
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,160
world, you'd kind of run it that way.

616
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,559
And, you know, and that's that was the

617
00:22:20,559 --> 00:22:21,059
driving

618
00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:24,500
reason for developing Sonic was was,

619
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:25,680
you know, you

620
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,555
as infrastructures become hugely complex,

621
00:22:30,015 --> 00:22:32,095
you and Jeff have a whole book talking

622
00:22:32,095 --> 00:22:33,315
about managing complexity.

623
00:22:35,775 --> 00:22:38,035
You know, you can't think of it

624
00:22:38,654 --> 00:22:41,259
on an individual node basis because every, you

625
00:22:41,259 --> 00:22:43,339
know, every node affects every other node or

626
00:22:43,339 --> 00:22:44,940
all that sort of thing. But,

627
00:22:45,980 --> 00:22:47,359
but, yeah, it's it's,

628
00:22:49,660 --> 00:22:52,799
you've so there there's that shift in thinking.

629
00:22:54,059 --> 00:22:56,505
The other part I actually I should mention,

630
00:22:56,505 --> 00:22:58,505
I've, I've been writing a blog. I was

631
00:22:58,505 --> 00:22:59,865
hoping to have the blog finished so I

632
00:22:59,865 --> 00:23:01,865
could shamelessly plug it on on your show,

633
00:23:01,865 --> 00:23:02,105
but,

634
00:23:03,065 --> 00:23:04,664
I haven't quite got it out yet. But,

635
00:23:05,465 --> 00:23:06,904
but Well, when you get it out, send

636
00:23:06,904 --> 00:23:08,265
me a link. We'll put it in the

637
00:23:08,265 --> 00:23:10,430
show notes. Oh, thank you. I will. Yeah.

638
00:23:10,830 --> 00:23:12,430
But, basically, it's just,

639
00:23:12,830 --> 00:23:14,289
why you should learn Sonic,

640
00:23:15,230 --> 00:23:18,269
as a network engineer. And the reasons are

641
00:23:18,269 --> 00:23:20,529
actually maybe you'll you'll never run Sonic

642
00:23:20,990 --> 00:23:21,390
in,

643
00:23:21,789 --> 00:23:23,410
in your operational network.

644
00:23:23,835 --> 00:23:25,855
But the things you need to know,

645
00:23:26,794 --> 00:23:28,714
you know, you've got to know Linux, you

646
00:23:28,714 --> 00:23:30,734
know, because you you've got to be able

647
00:23:32,154 --> 00:23:34,894
to know the least Linux commands for operating

648
00:23:34,954 --> 00:23:36,815
the thing. You've got to know Docker.

649
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,660
You've, you've got to know some programming languages

650
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:42,859
because it's it's,

651
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,720
automated. So, you know, you you wanna know

652
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,099
Python. You wanna know,

653
00:23:47,799 --> 00:23:49,180
prop baby go,

654
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:50,299
Golang.

655
00:23:51,944 --> 00:23:54,505
What else? You need to understand APIs, rest

656
00:23:54,505 --> 00:23:55,005
APIs,

657
00:23:55,784 --> 00:23:57,244
to interact with the system.

658
00:23:57,944 --> 00:24:00,765
And all of those things extend out

659
00:24:01,144 --> 00:24:04,105
to where all of networking is going, you

660
00:24:04,105 --> 00:24:05,724
know. So whether you ever

661
00:24:06,420 --> 00:24:08,740
actually use sonic or not, you know, you're

662
00:24:08,740 --> 00:24:10,340
sort of forced to learn all those other

663
00:24:10,340 --> 00:24:11,880
things that are gonna be valuable,

664
00:24:12,820 --> 00:24:15,059
tools for you. No. I'd I'd add I'd

665
00:24:15,059 --> 00:24:16,660
add a couple to that list too, Jeff.

666
00:24:16,660 --> 00:24:19,059
I think, you know, understanding how the system

667
00:24:19,059 --> 00:24:19,960
is put together,

668
00:24:20,660 --> 00:24:23,105
is is is kind of difficult in closed

669
00:24:23,105 --> 00:24:25,585
NASAs because there's not any way to really

670
00:24:25,585 --> 00:24:27,664
to really look at it. In some in

671
00:24:27,664 --> 00:24:29,424
some Nexus versions, you can get into the

672
00:24:29,424 --> 00:24:31,664
Broadcom shell and but it's not really obvious

673
00:24:31,664 --> 00:24:33,664
in most of them and very limited. But

674
00:24:33,664 --> 00:24:35,589
in but in Sonic, it's pretty much pretty

675
00:24:35,589 --> 00:24:36,950
much all open, not all of it.

676
00:24:37,509 --> 00:24:39,829
Broadcom keeps their things close to their vest,

677
00:24:39,829 --> 00:24:41,750
obviously. But one of the cool things about

678
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:43,269
Sonic, you if you wanna see how it

679
00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:45,190
works, you can go look at the FRR

680
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:46,869
source code. You can go look and see

681
00:24:46,869 --> 00:24:48,554
how FPM is implemented. You can go look

682
00:24:48,554 --> 00:24:50,234
in Redis and see all the routes come

683
00:24:50,234 --> 00:24:52,394
from from the kernel to here to and

684
00:24:52,394 --> 00:24:53,855
then they get pushed out into,

685
00:24:54,554 --> 00:24:56,714
into Redis. And then the whole the whole

686
00:24:56,714 --> 00:24:59,434
architecture of a system database is definitely not

687
00:24:59,434 --> 00:25:01,019
new in the industry. Definitely.

688
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,160
But but you can you can look at

689
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:05,319
Sonic's implementation. Oh, this is we have a

690
00:25:05,319 --> 00:25:07,400
central state database for everything, and here's how

691
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:08,679
it gets published, and here's how it gets

692
00:25:08,679 --> 00:25:11,000
consumed. Like, you can examine the whole the

693
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,359
whole system. And I don't know. I feel

694
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,345
like that leads to better thinking,

695
00:25:14,724 --> 00:25:17,125
in terms of network architecture. Because once you

696
00:25:17,125 --> 00:25:19,525
see how the system's built, you understand the

697
00:25:19,525 --> 00:25:21,924
component of the individual nodes, but also you

698
00:25:21,924 --> 00:25:23,944
can I think you can take that understanding

699
00:25:24,325 --> 00:25:26,085
and overlay it on top of the the

700
00:25:26,085 --> 00:25:28,650
physical topology with cables and and boxes and

701
00:25:28,650 --> 00:25:30,250
stuff? And I don't know. For me, at

702
00:25:30,250 --> 00:25:32,809
least, that's been quite the quite a quite

703
00:25:32,809 --> 00:25:34,330
a benefit to me. It is, oh, here's

704
00:25:34,330 --> 00:25:36,170
how the system works. Now I understand why

705
00:25:36,170 --> 00:25:37,769
I can't just shove all the routes over

706
00:25:37,769 --> 00:25:40,089
here because they're gonna be downstream effects, but

707
00:25:40,089 --> 00:25:42,570
I wouldn't have had that understanding without knowing

708
00:25:42,570 --> 00:25:45,505
how the system works. Yeah. Yeah. I absolutely

709
00:25:45,644 --> 00:25:48,365
agree with that. Okay. So that's what Sonic

710
00:25:48,365 --> 00:25:50,204
is. That's why we think you should use

711
00:25:50,204 --> 00:25:52,125
it. So maybe let's talk a little bit

712
00:25:52,125 --> 00:25:54,304
about where Sonic is right now,

713
00:25:54,765 --> 00:25:56,944
like, where it is in development cycle.

714
00:25:58,369 --> 00:26:00,789
Is it a big community? Is it

715
00:26:01,329 --> 00:26:02,230
well run,

716
00:26:02,609 --> 00:26:05,409
you know, meetings? Is it how how is

717
00:26:05,409 --> 00:26:07,190
that working out right now?

718
00:26:07,649 --> 00:26:09,509
It is a big

719
00:26:10,315 --> 00:26:10,815
community.

720
00:26:12,154 --> 00:26:12,815
I mentioned,

721
00:26:13,355 --> 00:26:15,275
I've actually, I've I've got a note here

722
00:26:15,275 --> 00:26:16,475
that I have to look at because I

723
00:26:16,475 --> 00:26:18,315
can't remember statistics off the top of my

724
00:26:18,315 --> 00:26:19,195
head, but,

725
00:26:20,154 --> 00:26:22,795
I mentioned that, that it was released to

726
00:26:22,795 --> 00:26:23,914
OCP in,

727
00:26:24,555 --> 00:26:27,170
2022.

728
00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:29,750
Did I say that? Yeah. 2022. Okay.

729
00:26:30,529 --> 00:26:32,849
Within two years, I've read I just pulled

730
00:26:32,849 --> 00:26:34,390
this off the internet somewhere,

731
00:26:37,009 --> 00:26:40,210
it had the community had grown to 4,000

732
00:26:40,210 --> 00:26:40,710
contributors

733
00:26:41,424 --> 00:26:42,964
across 500 organizations.

734
00:26:45,744 --> 00:26:46,244
And,

735
00:26:47,184 --> 00:26:48,244
and it is,

736
00:26:48,545 --> 00:26:49,365
being embraced

737
00:26:50,224 --> 00:26:52,384
sorry. A little bit. I'll put my notes

738
00:26:52,384 --> 00:26:54,065
down now or I start reading off the

739
00:26:54,065 --> 00:26:55,269
notes. But,

740
00:26:55,809 --> 00:26:58,129
pretty much all the major cloud providers are

741
00:26:58,129 --> 00:26:59,109
embracing Sonic.

742
00:27:00,129 --> 00:27:01,649
You know, they all see that as a

743
00:27:01,649 --> 00:27:03,429
as a great idea. And,

744
00:27:06,129 --> 00:27:08,769
so the community is growing. The the latest

745
00:27:08,849 --> 00:27:10,309
that those latest statistics,

746
00:27:10,615 --> 00:27:13,974
which was would be what circa 2024

747
00:27:13,974 --> 00:27:15,994
or so. So a couple of years old.

748
00:27:17,575 --> 00:27:18,075
And,

749
00:27:18,934 --> 00:27:19,755
it's it's

750
00:27:20,615 --> 00:27:21,974
very popular in,

751
00:27:22,855 --> 00:27:24,940
in the cloud provider space, very popular,

752
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,380
in the AI space, AI data center space.

753
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,180
Company I was working for,

754
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:35,180
next hop.

755
00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:37,579
You know, they they're

756
00:27:38,674 --> 00:27:39,575
creating switches,

757
00:27:40,194 --> 00:27:41,335
oriented specifically

758
00:27:41,634 --> 00:27:43,335
for AI data centers,

759
00:27:44,355 --> 00:27:47,474
and sonic is the operating system they use.

760
00:27:47,714 --> 00:27:49,095
There's there's another,

761
00:27:51,009 --> 00:27:53,509
another startup out there, ARIA Networks.

762
00:27:53,890 --> 00:27:54,609
Same thing.

763
00:27:54,930 --> 00:27:57,569
They're they're making switches for AI data centers

764
00:27:57,569 --> 00:28:00,130
and Sonic is the operating system they're using.

765
00:28:00,130 --> 00:28:02,450
They're not not even trying to develop their

766
00:28:02,450 --> 00:28:03,509
own operating system.

767
00:28:04,164 --> 00:28:05,625
There are consultancies

768
00:28:05,924 --> 00:28:07,285
growing up, and I think this is a

769
00:28:07,285 --> 00:28:09,065
huge opportunity, by the way,

770
00:28:09,845 --> 00:28:10,325
that,

771
00:28:10,724 --> 00:28:11,224
that,

772
00:28:12,484 --> 00:28:15,125
has not been exploited enough. But there are

773
00:28:15,125 --> 00:28:15,625
consultancies

774
00:28:16,005 --> 00:28:16,664
out there

775
00:28:17,220 --> 00:28:18,279
just around,

776
00:28:19,140 --> 00:28:19,640
helping,

777
00:28:20,819 --> 00:28:21,319
people

778
00:28:22,099 --> 00:28:23,220
engineer Sonic.

779
00:28:23,859 --> 00:28:25,880
Because as as interest,

780
00:28:27,059 --> 00:28:27,559
starts

781
00:28:28,579 --> 00:28:30,679
filtering down from these big hyperscalers,

782
00:28:31,940 --> 00:28:32,440
to

783
00:28:32,954 --> 00:28:36,234
smaller enterprise networks that don't have the DevOps

784
00:28:36,234 --> 00:28:37,934
teams to be dealing with Sonic.

785
00:28:38,875 --> 00:28:39,855
You know, I think

786
00:28:40,794 --> 00:28:41,775
there is,

787
00:28:43,034 --> 00:28:45,434
an opportunity like there was with,

788
00:28:45,755 --> 00:28:46,255
Linux,

789
00:28:46,794 --> 00:28:48,539
for companies like Red Hat,

790
00:28:49,420 --> 00:28:50,720
to say, you know, we can

791
00:28:51,259 --> 00:28:53,660
we can sup we can become your support

792
00:28:53,660 --> 00:28:54,160
team,

793
00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:55,980
for your your,

794
00:28:56,460 --> 00:28:59,820
your smaller engineering teams that maybe don't have

795
00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:00,960
the DevOps expertise

796
00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:02,160
to do this.

797
00:29:02,825 --> 00:29:03,325
And

798
00:29:03,785 --> 00:29:05,704
so that's that is that was kind of

799
00:29:05,704 --> 00:29:07,144
my next question. You see, you mentioned a

800
00:29:07,144 --> 00:29:08,045
couple of companies.

801
00:29:08,585 --> 00:29:09,404
Can you go

802
00:29:10,904 --> 00:29:13,164
to Cisco or Juniper or Nokia

803
00:29:13,865 --> 00:29:16,845
and buy boxes that run Sonic?

804
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,299
You can now.

805
00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:25,119
I think it's interesting. I was gonna mention

806
00:29:25,119 --> 00:29:25,599
that that,

807
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:26,900
that,

808
00:29:27,679 --> 00:29:29,539
Cisco and Juniper both,

809
00:29:32,009 --> 00:29:32,509
are

810
00:29:33,434 --> 00:29:35,615
adapting sonic on some of their boxes.

811
00:29:36,875 --> 00:29:37,375
Nvidia,

812
00:29:38,954 --> 00:29:40,714
is, they've got their,

813
00:29:41,194 --> 00:29:42,335
spectrum line

814
00:29:42,794 --> 00:29:43,934
is sonic capable.

815
00:29:45,514 --> 00:29:46,014
Nokia,

816
00:29:47,180 --> 00:29:49,099
you may know better than me. I was

817
00:29:49,099 --> 00:29:52,220
actually at Nanog this week and was chatting

818
00:29:52,220 --> 00:29:54,059
with some friends at Nokia, and they just

819
00:29:54,059 --> 00:29:56,539
kind of casually mentioned that, yeah, we're doing

820
00:29:56,539 --> 00:29:57,599
some work with Sonic.

821
00:29:58,059 --> 00:30:00,315
But I We have an entire internal Sonic

822
00:30:00,315 --> 00:30:02,154
team. Okay. So we have you know? Kind

823
00:30:02,154 --> 00:30:02,974
of an understatement.

824
00:30:04,075 --> 00:30:06,734
Yeah. We have an entire internal Sonic team.

825
00:30:06,954 --> 00:30:09,034
And, like, yeah, we sell a lot of

826
00:30:09,034 --> 00:30:10,714
Sonic, apparently. Okay. Yeah. That's

827
00:30:11,990 --> 00:30:12,490
I'm

828
00:30:13,029 --> 00:30:14,789
not deeply involved in that side of the

829
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:15,850
business right now.

830
00:30:16,390 --> 00:30:17,990
I'm not deeply I mean, I've only been

831
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:19,990
there since November. So what am I deeply

832
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:21,930
involved in at the moment? But

833
00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:25,029
but, anyway, that's just you know, it takes

834
00:30:25,029 --> 00:30:26,549
a long time to find your way around

835
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:29,235
a company and figure out where you're so

836
00:30:29,555 --> 00:30:31,555
You've been there since November. You're still learning

837
00:30:31,555 --> 00:30:32,375
people's names?

838
00:30:32,914 --> 00:30:35,255
Yes. Well, for me, it's even worse.

839
00:30:36,035 --> 00:30:37,875
I used to I used to teach a

840
00:30:37,875 --> 00:30:40,115
I used to teach a worldview philosophy class

841
00:30:40,115 --> 00:30:42,349
and a theology class for high schoolers, and

842
00:30:42,349 --> 00:30:44,450
I had the same kids for four years,

843
00:30:44,509 --> 00:30:46,450
like, as they would go through high school.

844
00:30:47,230 --> 00:30:49,330
I I still don't remember their names.

845
00:30:51,549 --> 00:30:53,070
Well, I can be that way about my

846
00:30:53,070 --> 00:30:53,570
grandkids.

847
00:30:53,950 --> 00:30:55,250
Which one are you again?

848
00:30:55,630 --> 00:30:58,894
Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I I don't know. Names

849
00:30:58,894 --> 00:31:00,575
are a hard thing for me. But at

850
00:31:00,575 --> 00:31:01,555
any rate yeah.

851
00:31:01,934 --> 00:31:02,434
So

852
00:31:03,215 --> 00:31:05,055
yeah. So the so there is it is

853
00:31:05,055 --> 00:31:06,674
out there. Now another question

854
00:31:07,134 --> 00:31:08,894
I would ask before we move into the

855
00:31:08,894 --> 00:31:10,735
future stuff and thinking about where Sonic is

856
00:31:10,735 --> 00:31:11,549
going is,

857
00:31:12,029 --> 00:31:13,410
can you get Sonic

858
00:31:13,789 --> 00:31:16,590
in a container for something like Container Lab?

859
00:31:16,590 --> 00:31:18,350
I've not looked, so this is just an

860
00:31:18,350 --> 00:31:20,509
honest question that I don't know. Like, I

861
00:31:20,509 --> 00:31:22,049
normally use FR routing

862
00:31:22,350 --> 00:31:25,230
in a container or SR Linux, but or

863
00:31:25,230 --> 00:31:27,250
SR whatever it is. Yeah. SR Linux.

864
00:31:28,274 --> 00:31:30,514
Yes. You can. In fact, that's that's really

865
00:31:30,514 --> 00:31:32,115
kind of the recommended way to do it.

866
00:31:32,115 --> 00:31:34,274
Container Lab, because it's oriented to,

867
00:31:34,835 --> 00:31:35,315
to,

868
00:31:35,714 --> 00:31:38,274
to contain containers. To containers. Yes.

869
00:31:38,754 --> 00:31:41,815
It's that that's the the the best matchup.

870
00:31:42,109 --> 00:31:43,390
You can actually run,

871
00:31:43,869 --> 00:31:45,009
Sonic on,

872
00:31:46,910 --> 00:31:48,269
EVE NG or,

873
00:31:48,910 --> 00:31:50,509
I I'm pretty sure you can do it

874
00:31:50,509 --> 00:31:51,950
on g n s three. I haven't tried

875
00:31:51,950 --> 00:31:52,269
it, but,

876
00:31:53,470 --> 00:31:55,549
you know, the, you can run it on

877
00:31:55,549 --> 00:31:56,049
NetBox.

878
00:31:57,775 --> 00:31:59,715
There's a lot of a lot of,

879
00:32:00,255 --> 00:32:00,755
virtualization

880
00:32:01,855 --> 00:32:04,174
platforms that you can run sonic on, but

881
00:32:04,174 --> 00:32:06,275
to get it really in its,

882
00:32:07,535 --> 00:32:08,434
native environment,

883
00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:12,200
I would highly recommend, Container Labs.

884
00:32:12,579 --> 00:32:14,259
Okay. So if people wanna learn it, they

885
00:32:14,259 --> 00:32:16,039
can just go grab Container Lab,

886
00:32:16,339 --> 00:32:19,139
and then there's a a build, I suppose,

887
00:32:19,139 --> 00:32:21,159
a nightly or weekly whatever build

888
00:32:21,644 --> 00:32:22,865
sonic in a container,

889
00:32:23,244 --> 00:32:25,505
and you specify that in Container Lab

890
00:32:25,805 --> 00:32:27,644
and off you go, and you actually build

891
00:32:27,644 --> 00:32:28,625
networks with it

892
00:32:29,085 --> 00:32:30,785
and play with it. Yeah. Okay.

893
00:32:31,164 --> 00:32:33,345
Cool. Pull pull it all off of, GitHub,

894
00:32:33,679 --> 00:32:35,119
Which is something else, by the way,

895
00:32:35,679 --> 00:32:37,839
going back to things that you will learn

896
00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:40,240
if you're working with Sonic is you need

897
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:41,700
to be working with Git,

898
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:42,960
and,

899
00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:46,660
which has all kinds of benefits for you.

900
00:32:47,164 --> 00:32:49,724
Yes. I'm still not a Git expert. If

901
00:32:49,724 --> 00:32:51,345
you're gonna build Sonic though,

902
00:32:51,644 --> 00:32:54,204
buckle up. This is not a read the

903
00:32:54,204 --> 00:32:56,125
read me and type in commands for an

904
00:32:56,125 --> 00:32:57,184
hour type exercise.

905
00:32:57,644 --> 00:33:00,390
Yeah. It's definitely doable, but yeah. I should

906
00:33:00,390 --> 00:33:02,330
mention that is another

907
00:33:02,789 --> 00:33:03,289
area

908
00:33:03,910 --> 00:33:05,990
of, you know, for people that are always

909
00:33:05,990 --> 00:33:07,210
looking to

910
00:33:07,509 --> 00:33:08,309
looking for,

911
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:11,670
business opportunities. That's another area where there's huge

912
00:33:11,670 --> 00:33:13,029
opportunities right now.

913
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:15,509
Most anybody that works with Sonic will tell

914
00:33:15,509 --> 00:33:16,994
you their documentation

915
00:33:17,694 --> 00:33:18,194
sucks.

916
00:33:19,615 --> 00:33:20,835
It's, you know,

917
00:33:21,615 --> 00:33:24,035
it's it's hard to follow, it's not linear,

918
00:33:24,815 --> 00:33:25,294
you know, you'd

919
00:33:26,174 --> 00:33:27,694
if you, you know, if you look you

920
00:33:27,694 --> 00:33:29,480
go to, you know, Cisco,

921
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:31,559
Juniper, whoever,

922
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:34,339
and say I wanna learn that operating system,

923
00:33:34,339 --> 00:33:36,819
you know, they'll they'll to some degree, their

924
00:33:36,819 --> 00:33:39,400
documentation is set up so you can linear

925
00:33:39,619 --> 00:33:40,119
linearly

926
00:33:40,579 --> 00:33:41,319
learn it.

927
00:33:41,945 --> 00:33:43,464
Sonic is not like that at all. It's

928
00:33:43,464 --> 00:33:45,625
just, you know, here's here's a feature and

929
00:33:45,625 --> 00:33:47,545
here's the document for that. Here's the other

930
00:33:47,545 --> 00:33:49,625
feature. Here's a document for that. And and,

931
00:33:50,345 --> 00:33:51,964
it may or may not be accurate.

932
00:33:52,744 --> 00:33:54,184
It's one of the things that I've,

933
00:33:55,470 --> 00:33:58,190
learned working with people that are working closely

934
00:33:58,190 --> 00:34:00,190
with sonic and and, getting in in a

935
00:34:00,190 --> 00:34:02,109
slab as, you know, well, sometimes things don't

936
00:34:02,109 --> 00:34:03,869
work the way the document said said it

937
00:34:03,869 --> 00:34:04,369
would.

938
00:34:05,230 --> 00:34:07,470
All of that to say, there's a lot

939
00:34:07,470 --> 00:34:09,869
of opportunity out there for people that are

940
00:34:09,869 --> 00:34:10,609
doing training,

941
00:34:11,704 --> 00:34:14,364
to to build sonic training courses.

942
00:34:15,224 --> 00:34:17,465
It's opportunity for books. There's not any good

943
00:34:17,465 --> 00:34:20,045
books on Sonic out there right now. And,

944
00:34:22,425 --> 00:34:23,405
so yeah.

945
00:34:23,784 --> 00:34:25,324
Interesting. Business opportunities.

946
00:34:27,269 --> 00:34:29,449
So let's talk about the future of Sonic.

947
00:34:29,829 --> 00:34:31,769
Yeah. Where we are is where we are.

948
00:34:31,989 --> 00:34:34,010
What are the big what are the big

949
00:34:34,789 --> 00:34:35,289
pushes

950
00:34:35,829 --> 00:34:36,730
right now

951
00:34:37,269 --> 00:34:40,070
in the Sonic community? What are people trying

952
00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:40,730
to do

953
00:34:41,694 --> 00:34:42,514
to make it

954
00:34:43,694 --> 00:34:46,674
more suitable, more I don't know, more whatever

955
00:34:47,775 --> 00:34:48,275
for

956
00:34:48,815 --> 00:34:52,194
Well, two directions, I think. One is, simply

957
00:34:52,255 --> 00:34:53,474
adapting it more,

958
00:34:54,190 --> 00:34:56,910
you know, to what it was originally designed

959
00:34:56,910 --> 00:34:58,130
for, which is hyperscale,

960
00:34:58,829 --> 00:35:00,050
networks, you know,

961
00:35:00,590 --> 00:35:02,289
hyperscale clouds, AI

962
00:35:02,750 --> 00:35:05,309
AI data centers, that sort of thing, really

963
00:35:05,309 --> 00:35:06,849
huge hugely complex

964
00:35:07,469 --> 00:35:07,969
networks.

965
00:35:08,964 --> 00:35:11,684
The other movement is trying to move sonic

966
00:35:11,684 --> 00:35:12,984
down into the enterprise.

967
00:35:14,164 --> 00:35:16,244
And so I I sort of threw out

968
00:35:16,244 --> 00:35:18,085
a bunch of stuff about you know what

969
00:35:18,085 --> 00:35:19,065
needs to happen

970
00:35:19,605 --> 00:35:20,344
for that.

971
00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:24,119
You know, there's a lot of challenges there.

972
00:35:24,119 --> 00:35:27,000
I what's the statistic I read just a

973
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,059
while back that,

974
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,760
if you look at enterprise data centers, there's

975
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:33,260
only

976
00:35:34,039 --> 00:35:35,420
something like 200,

977
00:35:36,855 --> 00:35:38,215
and I don't know I can't even remember

978
00:35:38,215 --> 00:35:40,215
how old the statistic is. I think it

979
00:35:40,215 --> 00:35:41,195
was Garner,

980
00:35:42,215 --> 00:35:43,735
from a couple of years ago, but say

981
00:35:43,815 --> 00:35:46,155
you know, that there's something like 200 enterprise

982
00:35:46,215 --> 00:35:46,954
data centers

983
00:35:47,494 --> 00:35:50,295
that are running Sonic out of potentially a

984
00:35:50,295 --> 00:35:51,034
100,000.

985
00:35:52,369 --> 00:35:54,469
And so there's huge market there,

986
00:35:54,930 --> 00:35:56,710
but, you know, those roadblocks

987
00:35:57,250 --> 00:35:59,110
that we were talking about, you know,

988
00:35:59,410 --> 00:36:00,630
steep learning curve,

989
00:36:01,570 --> 00:36:02,869
you know, poor documentation,

990
00:36:03,250 --> 00:36:03,989
poor training,

991
00:36:05,015 --> 00:36:07,175
or lack of training, I shouldn't say poor

992
00:36:07,175 --> 00:36:07,675
training,

993
00:36:08,695 --> 00:36:09,175
is,

994
00:36:10,055 --> 00:36:12,795
are become very significant for enterprises.

995
00:36:15,175 --> 00:36:15,675
Okay.

996
00:36:16,055 --> 00:36:16,555
Interesting.

997
00:36:17,094 --> 00:36:19,260
What's your perspective, Tom? What do you see

998
00:36:19,260 --> 00:36:19,760
going

999
00:36:20,380 --> 00:36:21,760
on? There's a few things.

1000
00:36:22,699 --> 00:36:24,860
One of the things because there's enterprise data

1001
00:36:24,860 --> 00:36:27,019
center. That's one segment. But another segment is,

1002
00:36:28,059 --> 00:36:29,659
what some I don't know. People gonna they're

1003
00:36:29,659 --> 00:36:31,659
calling it enterprise edge or what what you

1004
00:36:31,659 --> 00:36:33,199
put in your campus or whatever.

1005
00:36:34,514 --> 00:36:36,194
They're so that that segment,

1006
00:36:36,835 --> 00:36:37,574
has been

1007
00:36:37,875 --> 00:36:40,114
sort of underserved because there's some critical things

1008
00:36:40,114 --> 00:36:42,054
not in Sonic PoE. Right?

1009
00:36:42,355 --> 00:36:43,315
You can put it in,

1010
00:36:43,875 --> 00:36:45,074
and we've done that. But,

1011
00:36:46,650 --> 00:36:49,049
the so the pens working group is is

1012
00:36:49,049 --> 00:36:50,969
is taking that that challenge on, and they're

1013
00:36:50,969 --> 00:36:53,210
actually starting to do some work. That's kind

1014
00:36:53,210 --> 00:36:55,369
of interesting because because if you wanted to

1015
00:36:55,369 --> 00:36:56,969
run if you wanted to run Sonic Lake

1016
00:36:56,969 --> 00:36:58,989
in your campus network, you would have to,

1017
00:36:59,454 --> 00:37:01,855
you'd have to figure out the poe yourself.

1018
00:37:01,855 --> 00:37:03,375
Right? You'd have to develop the and it's

1019
00:37:03,375 --> 00:37:04,675
not it's not that hard,

1020
00:37:05,214 --> 00:37:06,494
but but you do have to do that.

1021
00:37:06,494 --> 00:37:07,614
You have to integrate it with the rest

1022
00:37:07,614 --> 00:37:08,355
of the system.

1023
00:37:09,375 --> 00:37:10,914
And the other thing is the

1024
00:37:11,390 --> 00:37:13,170
the the, l two protocols

1025
00:37:13,710 --> 00:37:16,430
just this was built for data centers. Right?

1026
00:37:16,430 --> 00:37:18,989
So Yeah. The the there's a there's an

1027
00:37:18,989 --> 00:37:21,010
old spanning tree PR that's, like,

1028
00:37:21,949 --> 00:37:23,550
five or six years old or something that

1029
00:37:23,550 --> 00:37:25,615
was never merged that a lot of these

1030
00:37:25,775 --> 00:37:26,974
a lot of the other the people who

1031
00:37:26,974 --> 00:37:28,914
build, enterprise sonic distributions

1032
00:37:29,454 --> 00:37:31,135
either take that or start over and and

1033
00:37:31,135 --> 00:37:32,575
kind of put their own stuff into it.

1034
00:37:32,575 --> 00:37:35,135
And so but as far as community sonic,

1035
00:37:35,775 --> 00:37:37,215
there is starting to be some traction in

1036
00:37:37,215 --> 00:37:38,815
the pens working group for spanning tree as

1037
00:37:38,815 --> 00:37:39,315
well.

1038
00:37:39,695 --> 00:37:41,609
If that's a technology that you're needing to

1039
00:37:41,609 --> 00:37:43,609
use or interoperate with. You you don't. I'll

1040
00:37:43,609 --> 00:37:45,130
just tell you upfront. You don't need to

1041
00:37:45,130 --> 00:37:46,909
use spanning tree. Continue.

1042
00:37:48,329 --> 00:37:50,109
The evils of spanning tree.

1043
00:37:51,130 --> 00:37:52,750
Yeah. Well so,

1044
00:37:54,324 --> 00:37:56,805
Yeah. Anyway, that's so that's, that's something that

1045
00:37:56,805 --> 00:37:58,485
has been lacking for a long time, which

1046
00:37:58,485 --> 00:37:59,844
was kind of a dead stop for a

1047
00:37:59,844 --> 00:38:02,164
lot of customers. Like, if you can't do

1048
00:38:02,164 --> 00:38:04,425
PoE, then I can't use this for like

1049
00:38:04,644 --> 00:38:05,445
85%

1050
00:38:05,445 --> 00:38:06,744
of the ports in my business.

1051
00:38:07,170 --> 00:38:09,730
And so, I think that's a that's a

1052
00:38:09,730 --> 00:38:10,630
that's a big thing.

1053
00:38:11,089 --> 00:38:12,949
What about Tom? Tom, do you see,

1054
00:38:14,449 --> 00:38:15,989
do you see a lot of interest,

1055
00:38:16,929 --> 00:38:18,769
you know, of of Sonic moving out of

1056
00:38:18,769 --> 00:38:21,394
the data center and into into the enterprise

1057
00:38:21,695 --> 00:38:23,855
edge? There's there's select people using it.

1058
00:38:24,494 --> 00:38:27,375
Not everybody obviously is public about it. But

1059
00:38:27,375 --> 00:38:29,295
there are there are people that are that

1060
00:38:29,295 --> 00:38:30,815
are doing well. I know for sure there's,

1061
00:38:31,054 --> 00:38:32,034
several. But,

1062
00:38:32,815 --> 00:38:34,515
the thing is the people doing this

1063
00:38:34,949 --> 00:38:37,750
aren't necessarily talking about it. Like, they have

1064
00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:39,670
other things to do besides go to conferences

1065
00:38:39,670 --> 00:38:41,469
and give presentations. Right? And so you don't

1066
00:38:41,589 --> 00:38:43,030
you just don't hear about it. It doesn't

1067
00:38:43,030 --> 00:38:44,010
mean it's not happening.

1068
00:38:44,789 --> 00:38:46,550
You know, there there are people with scale

1069
00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:48,035
and stuff like that that are and and

1070
00:38:48,035 --> 00:38:49,315
you can have scale and not be a

1071
00:38:49,315 --> 00:38:51,735
hyperscaler is another thing that I would say.

1072
00:38:51,875 --> 00:38:53,894
But, but but I think it's

1073
00:38:54,434 --> 00:38:56,275
there it's a small number of people. It's

1074
00:38:56,275 --> 00:38:58,755
a small number of organizations, but, it is

1075
00:38:58,755 --> 00:39:00,375
working for those that are doing it.

1076
00:39:01,230 --> 00:39:03,309
So wouldn't that wrap back around, though, to

1077
00:39:03,309 --> 00:39:03,809
performance

1078
00:39:04,110 --> 00:39:06,590
to some degree? Like, I don't know. Seems

1079
00:39:06,590 --> 00:39:08,349
to me like in I know you said

1080
00:39:08,349 --> 00:39:10,349
earlier that we don't tend to deploy Sonic

1081
00:39:10,349 --> 00:39:12,289
in places where we need lots of routes,

1082
00:39:13,070 --> 00:39:16,105
but I still I don't know. There there

1083
00:39:16,105 --> 00:39:18,825
are areas, like, that concern me about Sonic

1084
00:39:18,825 --> 00:39:20,344
that I would like to see people work

1085
00:39:20,344 --> 00:39:23,385
on, basically. Yeah. Like what? Like that. So

1086
00:39:23,385 --> 00:39:25,625
route download's one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Route

1087
00:39:25,625 --> 00:39:28,204
download's one thing. Like, you're talking about PoE.

1088
00:39:29,599 --> 00:39:31,940
Spanning tree, I actually prefer you just, like,

1089
00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:34,820
get just kick it out. I don't care.

1090
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:35,940
Well well,

1091
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,320
I will tell you that the that somebody

1092
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:39,860
wants it because there are people,

1093
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,400
yeah, working on that that are not my

1094
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:42,900
organization.

1095
00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:44,340
So Yeah.

1096
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:45,140
Yep.

1097
00:39:46,224 --> 00:39:48,224
So, anyway yeah. So I don't know. There

1098
00:39:48,224 --> 00:39:49,664
there seem to be a few things like

1099
00:39:49,664 --> 00:39:51,025
that that I would like to see the

1100
00:39:51,025 --> 00:39:53,905
sonic community working on. So now if you

1101
00:39:53,905 --> 00:39:56,405
wanted to get involved in the sonic community,

1102
00:39:57,184 --> 00:39:58,625
say you wanted to work on one of

1103
00:39:58,625 --> 00:39:59,364
these things.

1104
00:39:59,670 --> 00:40:01,190
I know there are weekly calls. I don't

1105
00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:02,869
go to them and not because I wouldn't

1106
00:40:02,869 --> 00:40:04,710
like to, but because they tend to overlap

1107
00:40:04,710 --> 00:40:06,250
with other things in my life

1108
00:40:06,630 --> 00:40:08,150
99.9%

1109
00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:09,449
of the time. And I'm like,

1110
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:10,730
could you please

1111
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:13,349
not make the FR routing weekly and the

1112
00:40:13,349 --> 00:40:16,394
sonic weekly overlap with one another? Like, that's

1113
00:40:16,394 --> 00:40:17,214
that's just

1114
00:40:17,594 --> 00:40:18,094
painful.

1115
00:40:18,634 --> 00:40:20,394
And then I I don't know. Even internal

1116
00:40:20,394 --> 00:40:22,315
to Nokia, we have a whole sonic community,

1117
00:40:22,315 --> 00:40:24,714
and it's like, your meetings are always at

1118
00:40:24,714 --> 00:40:25,214
noon

1119
00:40:25,755 --> 00:40:26,255
eastern.

1120
00:40:27,034 --> 00:40:27,534
Like,

1121
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:29,780
some of us need to eat.

1122
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:33,780
Don't you eat during the meetings?

1123
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,000
So I don't know. You know? It's like

1124
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:38,660
a thing.

1125
00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:41,039
But, anyway, so if you wanted to get

1126
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:42,945
involved in Sonic and, And, Jeff, did you

1127
00:40:42,945 --> 00:40:44,385
have any other future stuff you wanted to

1128
00:40:44,385 --> 00:40:45,925
talk about before we move on?

1129
00:40:46,785 --> 00:40:47,184
And,

1130
00:40:47,985 --> 00:40:49,985
and I may not be the right, the

1131
00:40:49,985 --> 00:40:51,985
the best person to ask about getting involved

1132
00:40:51,985 --> 00:40:54,704
in Sonic either because I I I've sort

1133
00:40:54,704 --> 00:40:55,364
of just

1134
00:40:55,985 --> 00:40:56,885
been consuming,

1135
00:40:57,449 --> 00:40:59,690
you know, what other people have learned, and

1136
00:40:59,690 --> 00:41:01,690
I've I've not been very involved in the

1137
00:41:01,690 --> 00:41:04,269
in the sonic community myself as as far

1138
00:41:04,570 --> 00:41:06,589
as those meetings and that sort of thing.

1139
00:41:06,809 --> 00:41:08,570
Yeah. So I'll say, you know, you should

1140
00:41:08,570 --> 00:41:10,650
really start by just downloading C Lab and

1141
00:41:10,650 --> 00:41:12,109
getting it running with Sonic.

1142
00:41:12,425 --> 00:41:14,105
That's, like, the place to start if you

1143
00:41:14,105 --> 00:41:16,105
wanna learn it. And once you've learned it,

1144
00:41:16,105 --> 00:41:17,945
if you start finding problems and you'd like

1145
00:41:17,945 --> 00:41:19,885
to get involved, there are weekly meetings.

1146
00:41:20,264 --> 00:41:21,965
There are GitHub repositories.

1147
00:41:22,744 --> 00:41:25,144
There are maintainers. Right, Tom? There are people

1148
00:41:25,144 --> 00:41:27,880
who can push things. Yeah. And like like

1149
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,820
Jeff mentioned, it's, it's in,

1150
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,280
Linux found it. It's in Linux Foundation now.

1151
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,280
It was originally Yep. OCP, and then they

1152
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:35,900
moved it to Linux Foundation. But,

1153
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:37,260
but all the

1154
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:40,119
probably the biggest thing is is go anybody

1155
00:41:40,119 --> 00:41:41,960
can join the working groups. They're all they're

1156
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:42,199
all in,

1157
00:41:42,954 --> 00:41:45,034
I think that l a Linux Foundation moved

1158
00:41:45,034 --> 00:41:47,454
them to different mailing lists. But, anyway, that's,

1159
00:41:47,594 --> 00:41:49,674
you know, it's this developer talk. Like, you're

1160
00:41:49,674 --> 00:41:51,514
not it's not a working group where you'll

1161
00:41:51,514 --> 00:41:53,234
go and someone will say what CLI command

1162
00:41:53,234 --> 00:41:55,275
do you type to configure an IP address

1163
00:41:55,275 --> 00:41:57,049
on a port or something? But Right.

1164
00:41:57,449 --> 00:41:59,289
But but it is really interesting and especially

1165
00:41:59,289 --> 00:42:00,650
from the point of view of, you know,

1166
00:42:00,650 --> 00:42:02,809
figuring out how the system works. And there's

1167
00:42:02,809 --> 00:42:04,650
tons of working groups, like lots of things

1168
00:42:04,650 --> 00:42:06,730
going on. And then there's the weekly community

1169
00:42:06,730 --> 00:42:07,230
meeting,

1170
00:42:07,849 --> 00:42:09,230
that is mostly,

1171
00:42:10,614 --> 00:42:13,815
mostly feature development focused. So you'll have because

1172
00:42:13,815 --> 00:42:15,974
that's where, you you have to make a

1173
00:42:15,974 --> 00:42:16,474
presentation

1174
00:42:16,775 --> 00:42:18,715
and answer questions in the community,

1175
00:42:19,015 --> 00:42:21,414
the weekly community meeting before your PR, will

1176
00:42:21,414 --> 00:42:23,710
be merged. And so, you'll see a lot

1177
00:42:23,710 --> 00:42:25,730
of the future development type stuff in there

1178
00:42:25,869 --> 00:42:27,469
and a big big huge group of people

1179
00:42:27,469 --> 00:42:28,849
with a few people speaking.

1180
00:42:29,710 --> 00:42:31,150
But those are the those are the ways

1181
00:42:31,150 --> 00:42:33,230
that I know of. Sounds a lot like

1182
00:42:33,230 --> 00:42:33,969
I IETF.

1183
00:42:36,065 --> 00:42:36,565
Yeah.

1184
00:42:37,184 --> 00:42:39,125
Yeah. Well, let's not talk about the ITF.

1185
00:42:40,704 --> 00:42:42,625
I would say that, yeah. I was kind

1186
00:42:42,625 --> 00:42:44,625
of opening that door to see where the

1187
00:42:44,704 --> 00:42:46,804
put the water come out. I've not

1188
00:42:48,119 --> 00:42:50,519
I've gotten very frustrated with the ITF recently,

1189
00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:52,199
so I don't know. We'll see where it

1190
00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:54,760
goes. It's it's kind of a thing. So

1191
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:55,420
That

1192
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,599
you know, the being involved in in the

1193
00:42:58,599 --> 00:43:01,639
developer community, I mean, that's that is yet

1194
00:43:01,639 --> 00:43:02,039
another

1195
00:43:02,954 --> 00:43:05,195
My brain always goes to, you know, young

1196
00:43:05,195 --> 00:43:07,195
engineers and, you know, people that are just

1197
00:43:07,195 --> 00:43:08,494
starting their career and

1198
00:43:08,795 --> 00:43:10,954
and, you know, if if you are a

1199
00:43:10,954 --> 00:43:11,934
network engineer

1200
00:43:12,235 --> 00:43:14,175
and you have interest in DevOps,

1201
00:43:15,210 --> 00:43:17,369
that's yet another way of driving that, you

1202
00:43:17,369 --> 00:43:18,429
know, it's it's,

1203
00:43:18,969 --> 00:43:19,710
you know,

1204
00:43:20,329 --> 00:43:22,349
is polish off your your

1205
00:43:22,889 --> 00:43:24,750
c plus plus skills and,

1206
00:43:26,489 --> 00:43:29,449
you know, and and, actually develop features. There's

1207
00:43:29,449 --> 00:43:30,670
there's always a need.

1208
00:43:31,265 --> 00:43:33,425
Yeah. I one one thing, so the other

1209
00:43:33,425 --> 00:43:35,025
thing so just one more thing I just

1210
00:43:35,025 --> 00:43:37,105
thought of. The SCI working group is really

1211
00:43:37,105 --> 00:43:39,844
interesting. The people working on switch abstraction interface.

1212
00:43:40,224 --> 00:43:42,385
And you will I I have learned a

1213
00:43:42,385 --> 00:43:43,825
lot. I haven't gone to those meetings in

1214
00:43:43,825 --> 00:43:45,339
a while, but I've learned a lot just

1215
00:43:45,339 --> 00:43:47,519
by listening to them talk about the issues

1216
00:43:48,139 --> 00:43:49,679
behind maintaining things.

1217
00:43:50,539 --> 00:43:52,780
You know, so size a pretty low level

1218
00:43:52,780 --> 00:43:54,780
construct and you know people will be talking

1219
00:43:54,780 --> 00:43:56,219
about, oh, we need to add this feature.

1220
00:43:56,219 --> 00:43:58,079
Oh, we're missing an enum in

1221
00:43:58,464 --> 00:44:00,864
in the structure over here. And if you

1222
00:44:00,864 --> 00:44:02,944
listen, it's like from an education perspective. If

1223
00:44:02,944 --> 00:44:04,144
you listen, you're like, what's that? What does

1224
00:44:04,144 --> 00:44:06,065
that mean? You can go, you know, ask

1225
00:44:06,065 --> 00:44:07,764
chat g p t. What does this mean?

1226
00:44:08,065 --> 00:44:09,764
And then you can start to piece together

1227
00:44:09,984 --> 00:44:12,140
how a lot of these things work and

1228
00:44:12,140 --> 00:44:13,900
you don't have to be a c developer

1229
00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:15,260
to gain a lot of value out of

1230
00:44:15,260 --> 00:44:16,239
this, in my opinion.

1231
00:44:16,699 --> 00:44:17,199
Yeah.

1232
00:44:18,059 --> 00:44:19,360
Yep. I agree.

1233
00:44:21,019 --> 00:44:22,880
Cool. Awesome. K.

1234
00:44:23,420 --> 00:44:25,994
The biggest thing, Russ, you said it yourself,

1235
00:44:26,075 --> 00:44:28,255
is just getting started is

1236
00:44:28,875 --> 00:44:29,355
is,

1237
00:44:29,835 --> 00:44:30,494
you know,

1238
00:44:31,355 --> 00:44:32,974
grab grab an old,

1239
00:44:33,914 --> 00:44:36,155
server from somewhere off of eBay. That's what

1240
00:44:36,155 --> 00:44:36,735
I do.

1241
00:44:37,434 --> 00:44:39,160
You know, build yourself,

1242
00:44:39,619 --> 00:44:42,420
container labs and run Sonic. I I know

1243
00:44:42,420 --> 00:44:45,380
we're audio here for video when we're talking

1244
00:44:45,380 --> 00:44:46,840
to each other, but kinda

1245
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,119
right behind me there is,

1246
00:44:51,539 --> 00:44:52,739
is a an old,

1247
00:44:54,465 --> 00:44:57,184
server off of eBay that, that I'm running

1248
00:44:57,184 --> 00:44:59,445
container labs on. That's my that's my sonic

1249
00:44:59,985 --> 00:45:01,045
lab right there.

1250
00:45:01,744 --> 00:45:04,065
I have two minis forum boxes sitting up

1251
00:45:04,065 --> 00:45:06,400
on that shelf you can't see, But or

1252
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,920
up on a shelf, you can't see over

1253
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:09,440
there. And that's what I do is I

1254
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,360
just go buy cheap minis for them boxes

1255
00:45:11,519 --> 00:45:12,019
Yeah.

1256
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:14,420
And, you know, and just

1257
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,619
throw Ubuntu on them and

1258
00:45:18,894 --> 00:45:20,734
get continue the lab up and running and

1259
00:45:20,734 --> 00:45:23,214
then use them for various things. And that's

1260
00:45:23,214 --> 00:45:23,855
kind of my

1261
00:45:24,734 --> 00:45:26,174
that kind of my lab is sitting over

1262
00:45:26,174 --> 00:45:28,734
there. I kinda like small fanless boxes just

1263
00:45:28,734 --> 00:45:30,755
because I don't like Yeah. Minor.

1264
00:45:31,309 --> 00:45:33,309
I I'm the other way. I've my lab

1265
00:45:33,309 --> 00:45:34,989
tends to be kinda noisy, but it keeps

1266
00:45:34,989 --> 00:45:36,289
it nice and warm in here.

1267
00:45:37,150 --> 00:45:38,750
I I I buy a I buy a

1268
00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:41,789
lot of Dell r series servers off eBay

1269
00:45:41,789 --> 00:45:44,210
because they're cheap and, you know, very flexible.

1270
00:45:44,269 --> 00:45:44,769
And

1271
00:45:45,174 --> 00:45:46,554
I've I've always loved,

1272
00:45:47,974 --> 00:45:49,974
not meaning to make a big Dell,

1273
00:45:50,775 --> 00:45:52,775
pitch here, but I've always loved Dell servers

1274
00:45:52,775 --> 00:45:54,234
just because, you know, everything

1275
00:45:55,014 --> 00:45:57,414
just pops out really easy for a lab

1276
00:45:57,414 --> 00:45:58,154
and and,

1277
00:46:03,050 --> 00:46:04,989
easy to, to work with.

1278
00:46:06,170 --> 00:46:07,390
Yep. Cool. Alright.

1279
00:46:08,170 --> 00:46:10,010
Okay. So I think we beat this topic

1280
00:46:10,010 --> 00:46:13,150
to death. Well, not death or to extinction

1281
00:46:13,289 --> 00:46:15,369
or whatever you wanna say. When the horse

1282
00:46:15,369 --> 00:46:17,204
is dead, dismount. Is that the

1283
00:46:17,984 --> 00:46:20,385
Yeah. Well, hopefully, we haven't, beat it to

1284
00:46:20,385 --> 00:46:23,844
death. Hopefully hopefully, we've, generated a little interest

1285
00:46:24,065 --> 00:46:26,484
Yeah. A little interest. Yeah. Among your, listeners

1286
00:46:26,864 --> 00:46:28,964
or people that maybe didn't know Sonny.

1287
00:46:29,579 --> 00:46:31,420
Yeah. I hope yeah. If you don't know

1288
00:46:31,420 --> 00:46:33,440
it, get out there and learn it. It's,

1289
00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:34,559
you know,

1290
00:46:34,940 --> 00:46:35,440
it's

1291
00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:38,860
like all other network operating systems. It's had

1292
00:46:38,860 --> 00:46:42,300
its trade offs. It's positives, really great positives,

1293
00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:44,539
and some things that you kinda look at

1294
00:46:44,539 --> 00:46:46,434
and go, yeah. I'm not sure I would

1295
00:46:46,434 --> 00:46:48,135
have done it that way. But Exactly.

1296
00:46:48,994 --> 00:46:49,494
Whatever.

1297
00:46:50,194 --> 00:46:52,355
I think the same thing about Cisco iOS

1298
00:46:52,355 --> 00:46:54,375
and Junos and Evo and

1299
00:46:55,394 --> 00:46:57,809
all of that. Right? You know? It's all

1300
00:46:57,809 --> 00:47:00,769
that way. So it's just Yeah. Well, I

1301
00:47:00,769 --> 00:47:02,789
I mentioned early on my old,

1302
00:47:03,489 --> 00:47:04,289
history with,

1303
00:47:05,090 --> 00:47:07,110
Juniper when it was a startup and

1304
00:47:07,489 --> 00:47:09,190
a lot of, Junos

1305
00:47:10,114 --> 00:47:10,614
was,

1306
00:47:11,394 --> 00:47:14,054
you know, we got good developers there primarily

1307
00:47:14,194 --> 00:47:15,414
poached out of Cisco

1308
00:47:15,954 --> 00:47:18,355
by saying, hey, here's an opportunity to take

1309
00:47:18,355 --> 00:47:20,994
everything you learned building IOS and go all

1310
00:47:20,994 --> 00:47:22,594
the way back to square one and try

1311
00:47:22,594 --> 00:47:23,094
again.

1312
00:47:23,450 --> 00:47:25,289
And of course, Junos is an old operating

1313
00:47:25,289 --> 00:47:27,930
system now, but, you know Yeah. There was

1314
00:47:27,930 --> 00:47:30,090
a there was a time twenty five years

1315
00:47:30,090 --> 00:47:31,950
ago when it was new and innovative.

1316
00:47:32,490 --> 00:47:33,230
That's right.

1317
00:47:33,610 --> 00:47:34,670
Alright. Cool.

1318
00:47:34,970 --> 00:47:36,905
Alright. Jeff, where can people find you if

1319
00:47:36,905 --> 00:47:39,085
they want to? You have a blog, obviously.

1320
00:47:39,704 --> 00:47:40,764
I have a blog.

1321
00:47:41,625 --> 00:47:42,505
It's on my,

1322
00:47:43,304 --> 00:47:49,324
website, which is, www.doyleassociates.net.

1323
00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:52,789
And, you can find some blogs there that

1324
00:47:52,789 --> 00:47:55,110
I contribute to every now and then. You

1325
00:47:55,110 --> 00:47:56,230
can also find,

1326
00:47:57,190 --> 00:48:00,710
our mutual buddy, Jeff Jeff Tansura and myself,

1327
00:48:00,710 --> 00:48:02,864
and you're you're one of our most popular

1328
00:48:02,864 --> 00:48:04,945
guests on that show because you're a friend

1329
00:48:04,945 --> 00:48:06,164
and we always have fun.

1330
00:48:07,344 --> 00:48:10,144
Tom, we invite we invite Russ. Sometimes we

1331
00:48:10,144 --> 00:48:11,824
don't even care what the topic is. It's

1332
00:48:11,824 --> 00:48:13,344
just we'll just get on there and just

1333
00:48:13,344 --> 00:48:13,844
start

1334
00:48:14,224 --> 00:48:16,250
making fun of each other or whatever and

1335
00:48:16,250 --> 00:48:18,489
and, and have an entertaining hour and hope

1336
00:48:18,489 --> 00:48:21,210
somebody else is listening too. But,

1337
00:48:21,929 --> 00:48:24,589
that's that is called between two nerds.

1338
00:48:24,969 --> 00:48:25,609
The two is,

1339
00:48:26,250 --> 00:48:28,190
hex o x two

1340
00:48:28,489 --> 00:48:28,989
nerds.

1341
00:48:29,534 --> 00:48:30,034
And,

1342
00:48:30,494 --> 00:48:33,155
and you can find that on YouTube.

1343
00:48:33,694 --> 00:48:34,174
And,

1344
00:48:35,135 --> 00:48:35,635
yeah.

1345
00:48:36,414 --> 00:48:37,795
That's where to find us.

1346
00:48:38,255 --> 00:48:39,714
Cool. And Tom?

1347
00:48:41,949 --> 00:48:42,449
LinkedIn.

1348
00:48:43,710 --> 00:48:46,429
Alright. And I'm on LinkedIn too. I I

1349
00:48:46,429 --> 00:48:49,010
never think to plug LinkedIn. Yeah. That's fine.

1350
00:48:49,070 --> 00:48:50,750
And I'm Russ Weichkoff. I'm here at the

1351
00:48:50,750 --> 00:48:52,429
hedge at rule eleven dot tech on rule

1352
00:48:52,590 --> 00:48:53,329
on LinkedIn

1353
00:48:53,949 --> 00:48:54,449
occasionally

1354
00:48:54,750 --> 00:48:55,570
on x,

1355
00:48:56,545 --> 00:48:58,704
making weird comments that people don't know what

1356
00:48:58,704 --> 00:49:00,244
to do with. But anyway,

1357
00:49:01,905 --> 00:49:03,985
we know that we live in an attention

1358
00:49:03,985 --> 00:49:06,545
driven economy. And so thank you for listening

1359
00:49:06,545 --> 00:49:08,704
all the way to the bitter end of

1360
00:49:08,704 --> 00:49:10,690
this episode of The Hedge, and we will

1361
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catch you next time.