1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,679 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,679 --> 00:00:05,139 where we dig into technology, 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,160 business, and culture with the finest minds in 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,139 computer networking. 5 00:00:21,054 --> 00:00:22,754 Well, happy New Year, Yvonne. 6 00:00:23,054 --> 00:00:24,894 Are we gonna say Happy New Year. Are 7 00:00:24,894 --> 00:00:26,114 we gonna do it again? 8 00:00:26,449 --> 00:00:28,689 We can. Well, just so you know, we 9 00:00:28,689 --> 00:00:31,570 had to restart. But, yes, are we really 10 00:00:31,570 --> 00:00:33,170 allowed to say happy New Year this time 11 00:00:33,170 --> 00:00:34,789 of year? It's the January. 12 00:00:35,570 --> 00:00:37,649 It is the first time we've talked. It 13 00:00:37,649 --> 00:00:39,489 is. It is. So I'll give you a 14 00:00:39,489 --> 00:00:41,164 pass. So happy New Year to you and 15 00:00:41,164 --> 00:00:43,085 to Tom and to the plant. And to 16 00:00:43,085 --> 00:00:45,344 the plant and to the frog lamp. 17 00:00:46,284 --> 00:00:48,445 The frog lamp. The the the the the 18 00:00:48,445 --> 00:00:50,445 frog lamp. I don't I don't I was 19 00:00:50,445 --> 00:00:52,604 gonna say this less sentient, but I don't 20 00:00:52,604 --> 00:00:54,659 know if that's actually accurate. Because if if 21 00:00:54,899 --> 00:00:57,239 Tom's plant is sentient, we've got a problem. 22 00:00:57,939 --> 00:01:00,020 Yeah. We do. Maybe that's how it gets 23 00:01:00,020 --> 00:01:01,640 so much done. I don't know. 24 00:01:03,380 --> 00:01:05,140 Yes. You know, there is a key there 25 00:01:05,299 --> 00:01:06,674 the plant is on a desk, 26 00:01:07,234 --> 00:01:10,115 and there's a keyboard somewhere over there. And 27 00:01:10,115 --> 00:01:12,275 I think that I think the plant types 28 00:01:12,275 --> 00:01:14,034 in the background, and we just don't see 29 00:01:14,034 --> 00:01:14,534 it. 30 00:01:15,155 --> 00:01:15,655 That's 31 00:01:15,954 --> 00:01:17,715 sort of cool and terrifying at the same 32 00:01:17,715 --> 00:01:19,155 time. Is this is this is it Little 33 00:01:19,155 --> 00:01:21,075 Shop of Horrors? Am I got have I 34 00:01:21,075 --> 00:01:21,895 got my 35 00:01:22,670 --> 00:01:24,189 movies right? Yeah. That's 36 00:01:26,189 --> 00:01:28,509 so happy New Year, Tom. Happy New Year, 37 00:01:28,509 --> 00:01:29,409 Tom's Plant. 38 00:01:30,109 --> 00:01:31,489 So Happy New Year. 39 00:01:32,429 --> 00:01:34,750 So time for a roundtable. First of the 40 00:01:34,750 --> 00:01:35,174 year, 41 00:01:35,575 --> 00:01:36,935 beginning of the year, not first of the 42 00:01:36,935 --> 00:01:39,015 year. We're fifteen days in. I can't believe 43 00:01:39,015 --> 00:01:41,515 we're fifteen days into 2026. 44 00:01:41,895 --> 00:01:43,115 Make it stop. 45 00:01:43,495 --> 00:01:43,995 Anyway 46 00:01:45,094 --> 00:01:46,555 okay. Well, maybe not. 47 00:01:47,015 --> 00:01:49,049 Maybe not. May maybe making it stop wouldn't 48 00:01:49,049 --> 00:01:50,130 that be a good idea? I was gonna 49 00:01:50,130 --> 00:01:51,750 say, I'd like it to keep going, please. 50 00:01:53,569 --> 00:01:54,010 But 51 00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:54,950 okay. 52 00:01:55,490 --> 00:01:58,370 So we're gonna talk about today bringing back 53 00:01:58,370 --> 00:01:58,870 specialization. 54 00:02:01,105 --> 00:02:02,885 It's the new year. I can't talk anymore. 55 00:02:03,505 --> 00:02:05,505 And this is from a blog called Thinking 56 00:02:05,505 --> 00:02:06,005 Sideways, 57 00:02:06,704 --> 00:02:09,025 and we're just there's a thing here on 58 00:02:09,025 --> 00:02:10,485 the blog talking about 59 00:02:11,585 --> 00:02:12,884 how looking at software 60 00:02:13,905 --> 00:02:15,044 developer job postings, 61 00:02:15,930 --> 00:02:18,090 modern developers are supposed to be jacks of 62 00:02:18,090 --> 00:02:18,750 all trade. 63 00:02:19,210 --> 00:02:21,610 Now my theory is always jack of all 64 00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:23,310 trades, master of one. 65 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:25,790 But there is always some amount 66 00:02:26,729 --> 00:02:28,990 of what is that called? The t shaped 67 00:02:29,050 --> 00:02:30,110 knowledge theory? 68 00:02:30,594 --> 00:02:32,194 Yeah. Is that is that what it is? 69 00:02:32,194 --> 00:02:33,334 Yeah. T shaped skills 70 00:02:34,034 --> 00:02:34,534 that, 71 00:02:35,875 --> 00:02:38,435 you know, some amount of depth in one 72 00:02:38,435 --> 00:02:38,935 area 73 00:02:39,395 --> 00:02:41,574 is really good even though it consumes 74 00:02:42,849 --> 00:02:45,090 the depth from the other areas. And, you 75 00:02:45,090 --> 00:02:46,790 know, you need a point 76 00:02:47,250 --> 00:02:48,229 in your knowledge, 77 00:02:48,849 --> 00:02:50,770 but you also need the flat part of 78 00:02:50,770 --> 00:02:52,629 the t. It's an upside down t. 79 00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:54,710 Why do they call it a t, Yvonne? 80 00:02:54,770 --> 00:02:55,909 It's upside down. 81 00:02:56,210 --> 00:02:57,830 I've always seen it drawn 82 00:02:59,205 --> 00:03:01,544 with the flat line at the top. But 83 00:03:01,764 --> 00:03:02,004 the, 84 00:03:02,805 --> 00:03:04,344 the the point is, like, 85 00:03:04,884 --> 00:03:06,584 deep depth in one subject, 86 00:03:07,205 --> 00:03:08,104 breadth across 87 00:03:08,405 --> 00:03:08,905 several, 88 00:03:09,924 --> 00:03:10,424 tangential 89 00:03:10,884 --> 00:03:11,384 or, 90 00:03:12,060 --> 00:03:13,760 yeah, connected subjects. 91 00:03:14,219 --> 00:03:17,200 Adjacent. There we go. Thank you. Tom, 92 00:03:17,740 --> 00:03:19,280 jumping in with the right adjective. 93 00:03:22,460 --> 00:03:22,960 So 94 00:03:23,420 --> 00:03:25,594 but it is true that we have gotten 95 00:03:25,594 --> 00:03:27,754 to the point, particularly in software development and 96 00:03:27,754 --> 00:03:28,974 even in network engineering, 97 00:03:29,675 --> 00:03:31,594 that we are now kind of expected to 98 00:03:31,594 --> 00:03:33,675 know I mean, how many times we hear 99 00:03:33,675 --> 00:03:36,314 it. Oh, you can't be a network engineer 100 00:03:36,314 --> 00:03:37,775 unless you know how to code. 101 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,759 Well, there's a level of coding you can 102 00:03:40,759 --> 00:03:42,780 know as a network engineer. Got it. 103 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:45,099 But there's a level you can't. 104 00:03:46,039 --> 00:03:48,039 There's there's a limit to how much of 105 00:03:48,039 --> 00:03:49,959 a good coder you can be and be 106 00:03:49,959 --> 00:03:51,019 a network engineer. 107 00:03:51,465 --> 00:03:53,465 The same same way, by the way, the 108 00:03:53,465 --> 00:03:54,365 other way around. 109 00:03:54,665 --> 00:03:56,344 There's a level of being a good network 110 00:03:56,344 --> 00:03:58,025 engineer you can be while still being a 111 00:03:58,025 --> 00:03:58,925 really good coder. 112 00:03:59,385 --> 00:04:01,064 Like, you're you're gonna have to choose one 113 00:04:01,064 --> 00:04:02,205 of those two skills. 114 00:04:02,905 --> 00:04:05,625 And the example that this particular blog post 115 00:04:05,625 --> 00:04:07,004 makes is about, like, DevOps. 116 00:04:07,379 --> 00:04:08,840 Well, we can do the same thing. 117 00:04:09,219 --> 00:04:11,699 Right? NetSecOps or DevOps or whatever we wanna 118 00:04:11,699 --> 00:04:12,360 call it, 119 00:04:12,900 --> 00:04:13,400 that 120 00:04:13,780 --> 00:04:15,400 there's a point where 121 00:04:16,019 --> 00:04:16,920 we are 122 00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:17,620 doing 123 00:04:18,180 --> 00:04:19,879 trying to do too much. 124 00:04:21,225 --> 00:04:21,725 And 125 00:04:22,105 --> 00:04:23,865 how do you find that balance, or how 126 00:04:23,865 --> 00:04:25,645 do you know where that is? 127 00:04:26,185 --> 00:04:28,185 So I don't know. Yvonne, Tom, the way 128 00:04:28,425 --> 00:04:29,165 Well, the 129 00:04:29,545 --> 00:04:31,145 the how do you know, I think, is 130 00:04:31,145 --> 00:04:32,125 a really difficult 131 00:04:33,110 --> 00:04:35,110 question to ask. And the and the problem 132 00:04:35,110 --> 00:04:37,529 is it changes over time. Right? The, 133 00:04:38,710 --> 00:04:40,250 because as technology 134 00:04:40,550 --> 00:04:41,050 evolves, 135 00:04:41,830 --> 00:04:43,449 certain things that required 136 00:04:43,990 --> 00:04:45,770 very deep levels of expertise 137 00:04:46,230 --> 00:04:47,689 ten, fifteen years ago, 138 00:04:49,055 --> 00:04:52,355 have either been systematized or standardized such that 139 00:04:52,975 --> 00:04:54,735 the vast majority of people don't need a 140 00:04:54,735 --> 00:04:56,574 ton of deep level knowledge in that thing. 141 00:04:56,574 --> 00:04:57,074 So, 142 00:04:57,535 --> 00:05:00,014 you know, there's also a time component to 143 00:05:00,014 --> 00:05:00,995 this as well. 144 00:05:01,455 --> 00:05:02,275 But I think 145 00:05:02,850 --> 00:05:04,470 if you want to remain 146 00:05:04,930 --> 00:05:07,910 a technical person and do technical work, 147 00:05:08,290 --> 00:05:09,910 you have to be known 148 00:05:10,290 --> 00:05:11,269 for a thing. 149 00:05:13,649 --> 00:05:14,149 But 150 00:05:15,504 --> 00:05:17,044 that depth of knowledge, 151 00:05:18,625 --> 00:05:19,365 the more 152 00:05:19,824 --> 00:05:22,865 narrow it is and the less interconnected it 153 00:05:22,865 --> 00:05:24,865 is with other domains of knowledge, the less 154 00:05:24,865 --> 00:05:26,004 valuable it is. 155 00:05:27,529 --> 00:05:29,370 Yeah. I have I have other thoughts, but 156 00:05:29,370 --> 00:05:31,449 I'll pause for a moment. I I think 157 00:05:31,449 --> 00:05:33,689 there's two, two different ways to look at 158 00:05:33,689 --> 00:05:35,449 it. One is from the perspective of someone 159 00:05:35,449 --> 00:05:37,689 who assembles and maintains a team such as, 160 00:05:37,930 --> 00:05:40,009 a leader or a manager, and then the 161 00:05:40,009 --> 00:05:41,689 other, which I think is a very different 162 00:05:41,689 --> 00:05:44,354 perspective than, being an individual contributor. 163 00:05:44,654 --> 00:05:45,875 Being an individual contributor, 164 00:05:46,254 --> 00:05:48,094 you can, you know, you basically, you can 165 00:05:48,094 --> 00:05:49,854 take it on yourself to figure out what 166 00:05:49,854 --> 00:05:51,694 are my what are my adjacent areas of 167 00:05:51,694 --> 00:05:54,115 knowledge that I'm gonna participate in, 168 00:05:54,735 --> 00:05:57,399 and and obtain. And some people would say 169 00:05:57,399 --> 00:06:00,360 they shouldn't be adjacent. Like, one one, 170 00:06:00,759 --> 00:06:02,759 pretty common piece of advice for this is 171 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:04,600 that they should be they should be actually 172 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,000 pretty disparate. Like, if you're good at, if 173 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,319 you're good at spreadsheets, you should, you know, 174 00:06:09,319 --> 00:06:10,920 you should go learn how to be a 175 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:11,899 DJ or something. 176 00:06:12,224 --> 00:06:14,805 Like and it's, you know, stretches out your 177 00:06:15,024 --> 00:06:17,824 your ability to think and and applying cross 178 00:06:17,824 --> 00:06:19,745 domain thinking is, I think, really important. But 179 00:06:19,745 --> 00:06:21,745 then if you're a if someone assembling a 180 00:06:21,745 --> 00:06:23,904 team, then you have this group this group 181 00:06:23,904 --> 00:06:24,564 of people 182 00:06:24,944 --> 00:06:27,319 who you can't fully control who comes to 183 00:06:27,319 --> 00:06:28,839 the team. It's, you know, there's a whole 184 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,519 bunch of factors. You know, I'd love to 185 00:06:30,519 --> 00:06:32,439 hear your thoughts on this, Yvonne. But, like, 186 00:06:32,439 --> 00:06:34,759 whenever somebody comes, they're gonna bring something new 187 00:06:34,759 --> 00:06:37,240 that maybe nobody brought before. And whenever someone 188 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,480 leaves, your team is gonna be without something 189 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,019 that it took for granted before. 190 00:06:41,464 --> 00:06:43,944 And I think that's also a really important 191 00:06:43,944 --> 00:06:44,444 perspective. 192 00:06:44,824 --> 00:06:46,664 So there's actually a piece in here where 193 00:06:46,664 --> 00:06:47,324 he says, 194 00:06:48,664 --> 00:06:49,884 he begins by saying, 195 00:06:50,824 --> 00:06:52,985 a developer's job has become a lot broader 196 00:06:52,985 --> 00:06:54,745 over the last fifteen years, and I think 197 00:06:54,745 --> 00:06:55,644 this is a problem. 198 00:06:56,370 --> 00:06:58,209 Agreed. I mean, this is true for network 199 00:06:58,209 --> 00:07:00,689 engineering as well. It's become a lot broader 200 00:07:00,689 --> 00:07:02,149 over the last fifteen years, 201 00:07:02,689 --> 00:07:04,850 even more sharply over the next five last 202 00:07:04,850 --> 00:07:07,329 five to seven years, and this probably does 203 00:07:07,329 --> 00:07:08,229 have a problem, 204 00:07:08,605 --> 00:07:11,024 cause a problem. He says, while this generalist 205 00:07:11,165 --> 00:07:13,324 approach can take us very far, it clearly 206 00:07:13,324 --> 00:07:16,764 has limits. In some situations, we require deeper 207 00:07:16,764 --> 00:07:17,264 knowledge 208 00:07:17,964 --> 00:07:18,464 because, 209 00:07:19,004 --> 00:07:20,845 things that we would have at hand but 210 00:07:20,845 --> 00:07:22,944 never really bothered to learn. Specialization 211 00:07:23,324 --> 00:07:26,169 has value. For example, when we need a 212 00:07:26,169 --> 00:07:28,169 heart surgery, we want to go as to 213 00:07:28,169 --> 00:07:31,449 a specialist instead of just any surgeon. So 214 00:07:31,449 --> 00:07:33,370 why don't we apply the same logic to 215 00:07:33,370 --> 00:07:34,269 software development 216 00:07:34,810 --> 00:07:36,569 and get a let a back end engineer 217 00:07:36,569 --> 00:07:38,509 get really good at building back ends? 218 00:07:38,954 --> 00:07:41,355 The only explanation I have for this trend 219 00:07:41,355 --> 00:07:43,375 is that generalist software developers 220 00:07:44,634 --> 00:07:46,654 are very convenient for management. 221 00:07:48,634 --> 00:07:51,435 That's So, honestly, I was thinking some of 222 00:07:51,435 --> 00:07:52,814 that as well. 223 00:07:54,290 --> 00:07:56,629 Not as much the convenience for management. 224 00:07:57,810 --> 00:08:00,129 But, frankly, I think we find ourselves in 225 00:08:00,129 --> 00:08:01,189 a lot of situations 226 00:08:02,129 --> 00:08:05,189 where organizational leadership just can't tell the difference. 227 00:08:05,649 --> 00:08:08,069 Like, they cannot tell the difference between 228 00:08:09,194 --> 00:08:09,694 deep, 229 00:08:10,074 --> 00:08:11,454 high quality expertise 230 00:08:12,154 --> 00:08:12,654 and, 231 00:08:13,115 --> 00:08:13,774 you know, 232 00:08:14,714 --> 00:08:16,555 something broad, and they and then and then 233 00:08:16,555 --> 00:08:18,235 they don't know how to connect the work 234 00:08:18,235 --> 00:08:19,134 to that expertise. 235 00:08:19,915 --> 00:08:21,854 I I think that absolutely happens. 236 00:08:22,689 --> 00:08:25,250 The other thing that I've I've seen is 237 00:08:25,250 --> 00:08:25,750 that 238 00:08:26,610 --> 00:08:27,750 there's an assumption 239 00:08:28,529 --> 00:08:30,930 that if somebody is deep and really strong 240 00:08:30,930 --> 00:08:32,470 in one technical area, 241 00:08:32,850 --> 00:08:34,690 that you can just pick them up and 242 00:08:34,690 --> 00:08:37,424 drop them in another technical area. And in, 243 00:08:37,664 --> 00:08:39,605 in a very moderate amount of time, 244 00:08:40,464 --> 00:08:42,804 they can obtain the same level of expertise 245 00:08:42,944 --> 00:08:44,004 in a new area. 246 00:08:44,544 --> 00:08:46,164 Some people can do that. 247 00:08:46,625 --> 00:08:48,450 They are the absolute exception, 248 00:08:59,330 --> 00:09:01,834 deep expert in a topic area. I think 249 00:09:01,834 --> 00:09:04,154 that's that's the other challenge. Because it's not 250 00:09:04,154 --> 00:09:04,654 just, 251 00:09:05,274 --> 00:09:06,875 I read the book and I can regurgitate 252 00:09:06,875 --> 00:09:07,375 it 253 00:09:07,914 --> 00:09:11,355 to you. It's, you know, Russ spending years 254 00:09:11,355 --> 00:09:14,875 on the phone with customers intact solving really 255 00:09:14,875 --> 00:09:15,375 weird 256 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:18,100 problems that that 257 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,120 delivers an area of expertise that you just 258 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,120 can't get anywhere else. So I I see 259 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:24,500 those things happen as well. 260 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,440 And I think there's actually an expertise in 261 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:29,440 what you're talking about, Yvonne, which is the 262 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,360 ability to pick up and learn a new 263 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:31,815 thing. 264 00:09:32,774 --> 00:09:35,595 And that takes even longer to develop, 265 00:09:36,054 --> 00:09:38,695 and yet we seem to expect it out 266 00:09:38,695 --> 00:09:39,995 of college grads 267 00:09:40,455 --> 00:09:42,475 for some crazy reason. 268 00:09:42,774 --> 00:09:45,320 Like, we think, oh, the big difference between 269 00:09:45,379 --> 00:09:47,399 an architect level network engineer 270 00:09:47,860 --> 00:09:50,440 and a and a college level network engineer 271 00:09:50,740 --> 00:09:52,600 is just that the architect, 272 00:09:53,139 --> 00:09:55,620 you know, has deeper no. The architect should 273 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:58,355 actually be able to pick up new technologies 274 00:09:58,575 --> 00:10:00,995 and solve new problems more quickly 275 00:10:01,855 --> 00:10:05,295 because they've developed the skill. It's like learning 276 00:10:05,295 --> 00:10:06,035 to read. 277 00:10:06,654 --> 00:10:09,634 Some people just read faster because they've practiced 278 00:10:09,695 --> 00:10:11,315 reading for twenty years, 279 00:10:12,279 --> 00:10:15,000 and they maintain that information or retain it. 280 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,759 And, therefore, they can pick up different kinds 281 00:10:16,759 --> 00:10:18,839 of books and read them and get all 282 00:10:18,839 --> 00:10:21,659 the value they can out of different topics. 283 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:24,620 It's just a different 284 00:10:25,159 --> 00:10:27,100 way of looking at or seeing 285 00:10:27,924 --> 00:10:30,345 the world and a different kind of experience. 286 00:10:31,285 --> 00:10:32,904 So I think we underestimate 287 00:10:34,085 --> 00:10:36,024 the value of that as well. 288 00:10:37,125 --> 00:10:37,625 Now 289 00:10:38,085 --> 00:10:39,684 another thing I was thinking when you were 290 00:10:39,684 --> 00:10:40,985 talking about that, Yvonne, 291 00:10:41,764 --> 00:10:42,585 is that, 292 00:10:43,889 --> 00:10:44,949 what was I thinking? 293 00:10:45,409 --> 00:10:47,269 I've lost my train of thought. 294 00:10:48,610 --> 00:10:51,169 I'll, I'll jump in. So one of the 295 00:10:51,169 --> 00:10:53,250 things about what you mentioned though, Russ, is 296 00:10:53,250 --> 00:10:56,370 like these, you know, younger folks, 20 297 00:10:56,370 --> 00:10:57,429 just out of college. 298 00:10:58,464 --> 00:11:00,544 I think one of the things that comes 299 00:11:00,544 --> 00:11:02,004 along with that also 300 00:11:03,184 --> 00:11:04,404 is a little bit of hubris 301 00:11:04,705 --> 00:11:07,664 and not really understanding how much there is 302 00:11:07,664 --> 00:11:09,825 to know. So if a leader comes to 303 00:11:09,825 --> 00:11:12,404 them and says, hey, can you do this? 304 00:11:12,990 --> 00:11:14,990 That that that you know, they'll jump at 305 00:11:14,990 --> 00:11:16,990 it without not without knowing what they're getting 306 00:11:16,990 --> 00:11:19,789 into. Now there are some advantages in that 307 00:11:19,789 --> 00:11:20,289 because 308 00:11:21,070 --> 00:11:22,909 a lot of times we learn by doing, 309 00:11:22,909 --> 00:11:24,350 and so they just jump in and they 310 00:11:24,350 --> 00:11:25,330 figure it out. 311 00:11:25,870 --> 00:11:28,543 But I think what it till you make 312 00:11:28,543 --> 00:11:30,599 it. Yes. And and and look, that can 313 00:11:30,599 --> 00:11:32,654 be a a very valid strategy. I don't 314 00:11:32,654 --> 00:11:34,967 mean to I don't mean to because I 315 00:11:34,967 --> 00:11:37,022 think sometimes those of us who've been around 316 00:11:37,022 --> 00:11:39,335 a while can get can can get stuck 317 00:11:39,335 --> 00:11:40,363 in analysis paralysis sometimes, 318 00:11:41,659 --> 00:11:43,100 or be like, I don't know that I 319 00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:45,820 wanna dive into another thing deeply because I 320 00:11:45,820 --> 00:11:47,820 know how much it took to get deep 321 00:11:47,820 --> 00:11:48,320 here, 322 00:11:48,779 --> 00:11:51,259 right, in another area. But I but I 323 00:11:51,259 --> 00:11:53,679 think that's that's also a component too. 324 00:11:54,945 --> 00:11:57,904 Yeah. So it's it's an interesting conversation for 325 00:11:57,904 --> 00:11:58,404 sure. 326 00:11:58,705 --> 00:11:58,945 The, 327 00:11:59,664 --> 00:12:02,144 the leap without looking that you're talking about, 328 00:12:02,144 --> 00:12:04,384 Yvonne, I just I just remember early times 329 00:12:04,384 --> 00:12:05,745 in my own career when I did that 330 00:12:05,745 --> 00:12:06,565 several times. 331 00:12:07,350 --> 00:12:09,990 And it's as a result of that, that's 332 00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:12,309 what drove some of my some of my 333 00:12:12,309 --> 00:12:15,509 own deep expertise was deleting without looking. But 334 00:12:15,509 --> 00:12:17,190 then, like you said, when you when you 335 00:12:17,190 --> 00:12:18,649 get more experience, you're like, 336 00:12:19,725 --> 00:12:21,404 Yeah. I did that. No. I don't think 337 00:12:21,404 --> 00:12:22,544 I should right now. 338 00:12:23,245 --> 00:12:24,764 I've worked too late. You're like, you know, 339 00:12:24,764 --> 00:12:26,605 that makes your knees hurt. You know? Yeah. 340 00:12:26,605 --> 00:12:28,304 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 341 00:12:28,764 --> 00:12:29,964 Yeah. Yeah. Oh, when I was a kid 342 00:12:29,964 --> 00:12:31,565 in the air force, I would climb 90 343 00:12:31,565 --> 00:12:33,940 foot towers without safety gear. I mean, the 344 00:12:33,940 --> 00:12:35,539 safety gear was there. It was hanging off 345 00:12:35,539 --> 00:12:37,379 my belt. Right? But, like, I'm in a 346 00:12:37,379 --> 00:12:38,899 hurry. I've gotta get to the top. I've 347 00:12:38,899 --> 00:12:40,579 gotta get done what I gotta get done. 348 00:12:40,579 --> 00:12:41,320 Let's go. 349 00:12:41,699 --> 00:12:43,539 Nowadays, I wouldn't even climb a 90 foot 350 00:12:43,539 --> 00:12:44,039 tower. 351 00:12:44,419 --> 00:12:46,839 Safety gear, no. No. Ain't happening. 352 00:12:47,940 --> 00:12:49,399 You know? It's just 353 00:12:49,725 --> 00:12:51,825 the ground looks a lot farther away 354 00:12:52,764 --> 00:12:54,144 the older you get. 355 00:12:55,004 --> 00:12:55,904 I think the 356 00:12:56,284 --> 00:12:58,684 I think the I think the meta topic 357 00:12:58,684 --> 00:13:01,105 there is that we need we need both, 358 00:13:01,565 --> 00:13:02,704 perspectives and, 359 00:13:03,485 --> 00:13:03,985 propensities. 360 00:13:04,524 --> 00:13:06,580 We need people who are leaping without looking, 361 00:13:06,580 --> 00:13:08,500 and we also need people who are not 362 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:09,720 gonna do that anymore. 363 00:13:10,420 --> 00:13:12,179 Any either of them. I think sometimes it's 364 00:13:12,179 --> 00:13:14,019 easier to value the leap without looking because 365 00:13:14,019 --> 00:13:16,500 you're like especially for management, like, okay. Well, 366 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:17,860 they'll struggle. They'll figure it out. I don't 367 00:13:17,860 --> 00:13:19,139 have to do anything. I just know they'll 368 00:13:19,139 --> 00:13:21,195 do it. And that that I could that 369 00:13:21,195 --> 00:13:23,034 could be convenient, you know, to quote the 370 00:13:23,034 --> 00:13:24,334 article. But then 371 00:13:24,714 --> 00:13:27,115 I you know, but but having someone there 372 00:13:27,115 --> 00:13:29,214 to to guide the the useful, 373 00:13:29,914 --> 00:13:31,054 the useful energy 374 00:13:31,834 --> 00:13:33,674 is more likely that you'll end up with 375 00:13:33,674 --> 00:13:35,549 something that produces revenue, I think, 376 00:13:36,029 --> 00:13:37,950 could produce great experiences, but how much is 377 00:13:37,950 --> 00:13:39,409 it gonna move the business forward 378 00:13:39,870 --> 00:13:41,809 without some guidance? You know? 379 00:13:42,190 --> 00:13:43,950 And he and Go ahead, Yvonne. I was 380 00:13:43,950 --> 00:13:46,529 just saying this article, he he brings up, 381 00:13:47,549 --> 00:13:50,529 the challenges of cloud as well. Right? Because 382 00:13:51,245 --> 00:13:52,784 in on premises infrastructure, 383 00:13:53,325 --> 00:13:57,024 yes, there are absolutely nuances between different vendors. 384 00:13:59,164 --> 00:14:01,745 But not but but you have a you're 385 00:14:01,884 --> 00:14:04,065 generally running protocols with standards. 386 00:14:04,659 --> 00:14:05,480 And so there's 387 00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:09,620 some degree of alignment and and ability of 388 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:12,340 to interact with those products. And and, of 389 00:14:12,340 --> 00:14:13,700 course, when you think about cloud, there are 390 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:15,460 also some of those protocols that you can 391 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:17,799 use to interconnect. But when you talk about 392 00:14:18,845 --> 00:14:20,065 things like troubleshooting, 393 00:14:20,764 --> 00:14:21,985 performance tuning, 394 00:14:22,524 --> 00:14:23,024 observability, 395 00:14:25,164 --> 00:14:25,664 deployment 396 00:14:26,044 --> 00:14:27,985 patterns, and things like that, 397 00:14:28,365 --> 00:14:29,824 there's so much variability 398 00:14:30,524 --> 00:14:32,144 between public clouds 399 00:14:32,899 --> 00:14:33,399 that, 400 00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:34,920 expertise 401 00:14:35,460 --> 00:14:38,920 in a particular cloud becomes its own thing. 402 00:14:39,220 --> 00:14:42,040 So you're not just a cloud engineer, 403 00:14:42,500 --> 00:14:44,660 you're a Google Cloud engineer, or you're an 404 00:14:44,660 --> 00:14:47,960 AWS engineer, or you're an Azure engineer. 405 00:14:48,554 --> 00:14:50,955 And then those will be divided up into 406 00:14:50,955 --> 00:14:51,455 different 407 00:14:52,235 --> 00:14:52,735 technology 408 00:14:53,355 --> 00:14:54,575 specifics, like 409 00:14:55,195 --> 00:14:55,695 containers, 410 00:14:56,235 --> 00:14:57,054 or infrastructure, 411 00:14:57,595 --> 00:14:58,495 or networking, 412 00:14:58,955 --> 00:15:00,735 or data, or analytics, 413 00:15:01,195 --> 00:15:02,174 or AI. 414 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,180 So there are many, many, many 415 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,259 areas for specialization. 416 00:15:07,519 --> 00:15:10,180 But I think it's also important to realize 417 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:11,620 that 418 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:14,180 these things are not like 419 00:15:14,975 --> 00:15:16,975 a red LEGO block and a green LEGO 420 00:15:16,975 --> 00:15:18,355 block. Like, they're they're 421 00:15:19,214 --> 00:15:22,514 an order of magnitude more different than that. 422 00:15:22,574 --> 00:15:24,735 And and I think we lose something when 423 00:15:24,735 --> 00:15:28,095 we forget that. Yeah. It's like instead of 424 00:15:28,095 --> 00:15:31,040 trying to build a castle out 425 00:15:31,660 --> 00:15:32,879 of Lego blocks, 426 00:15:33,420 --> 00:15:35,899 you actually the the square and the round 427 00:15:36,059 --> 00:15:38,779 you know, the square and rectangle and you 428 00:15:38,779 --> 00:15:40,879 actually just have little people heads, 429 00:15:41,845 --> 00:15:43,684 Lego blocks, and you're trying to build a 430 00:15:43,684 --> 00:15:46,565 castle or something. It's like, these are very 431 00:15:46,565 --> 00:15:49,125 specialized pieces, and you have to have somebody 432 00:15:49,125 --> 00:15:52,164 who specializes in knowing that piece to do 433 00:15:52,164 --> 00:15:53,065 it really well. 434 00:15:53,445 --> 00:15:56,264 And to me, that actually drives another problem, 435 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,379 which is that tunes or pushes against 436 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,220 success for smaller businesses and smaller shops. 437 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,420 Because if you need five different specialists 438 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,860 or 10 different specialists to interact with AWS 439 00:16:10,784 --> 00:16:13,264 or with Google Cloud, or if you wanna 440 00:16:13,264 --> 00:16:15,664 interact with both, now you're looking at 20 441 00:16:15,664 --> 00:16:16,164 specialists. 442 00:16:16,945 --> 00:16:18,964 How many businesses are big enough 443 00:16:19,424 --> 00:16:21,684 to hire 20 different specialists 444 00:16:22,544 --> 00:16:24,164 to interact with two services? 445 00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:28,519 I think it also though is why our 446 00:16:28,519 --> 00:16:30,840 career trajectories are off at least for me 447 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,580 personally, my career trajectory has been 448 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,480 smaller organizations to larger larger organizations because I 449 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,105 cut my teeth at a small mom and 450 00:16:39,105 --> 00:16:39,845 pop ISP. 451 00:16:40,465 --> 00:16:42,565 I mean, I did everything from 452 00:16:42,945 --> 00:16:45,585 web development, wrote some really bad PHP code 453 00:16:45,585 --> 00:16:47,605 that is still running a website somewhere, 454 00:16:48,144 --> 00:16:49,665 you know, and this is twenty five years 455 00:16:49,665 --> 00:16:50,165 ago, 456 00:16:50,789 --> 00:16:53,669 to networking, to dial up phone support, to 457 00:16:53,669 --> 00:16:55,509 all of those things. Now was I an 458 00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:57,029 expert in any of those? But no. I 459 00:16:57,029 --> 00:16:58,009 was good enough 460 00:16:58,549 --> 00:17:00,389 to meet the needs of the business. We 461 00:17:00,389 --> 00:17:03,350 hired specialist contractors for those things, and it 462 00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:04,809 gave me a great, 463 00:17:05,154 --> 00:17:07,414 great, great, great foundation to go 464 00:17:07,795 --> 00:17:10,115 many any number of things. And I think 465 00:17:10,115 --> 00:17:11,394 that's why you see a lot of people 466 00:17:11,394 --> 00:17:14,275 in their career trajectory start at small orgs, 467 00:17:14,275 --> 00:17:15,414 get this broad 468 00:17:16,595 --> 00:17:17,095 skill, 469 00:17:17,559 --> 00:17:21,080 and then they move into more specialized roles 470 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:22,299 at bigger organizations. 471 00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:25,320 But I think that's part of why we 472 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:25,820 have, 473 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,720 you know, partners and, you know, third parties 474 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,960 and consultants who can come in and help 475 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,884 because, yeah, no. You can't 476 00:17:34,424 --> 00:17:36,684 you know, a small business can't staff 477 00:17:37,625 --> 00:17:38,285 a 100, 478 00:17:38,984 --> 00:17:40,765 you know, 6 figure engineers 479 00:17:42,265 --> 00:17:43,964 to to run a small environment. 480 00:17:44,505 --> 00:17:45,005 Yeah. 481 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,940 And career wise, that's another interesting question. 482 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,019 This idea of specialization, 483 00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:52,980 should companies 484 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:55,539 intentionally go about 485 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:57,859 trying to create spaces 486 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,059 for generalist 487 00:18:00,134 --> 00:18:02,555 even just from a career perspective. 488 00:18:04,535 --> 00:18:07,174 Right? Like, if we all think because I 489 00:18:07,174 --> 00:18:09,095 do. I think that starting a career as 490 00:18:09,095 --> 00:18:09,755 a generalist 491 00:18:10,375 --> 00:18:12,695 and getting the broadest space you can is 492 00:18:12,695 --> 00:18:13,195 extraordinarily 493 00:18:13,575 --> 00:18:14,075 important. 494 00:18:14,450 --> 00:18:16,950 I have no idea if I would be 495 00:18:17,009 --> 00:18:18,769 a quarter of the engineer today that I 496 00:18:18,769 --> 00:18:19,910 that I am now 497 00:18:20,289 --> 00:18:23,490 if I didn't learn electronic engineering before I 498 00:18:23,490 --> 00:18:25,109 went into computer networking. 499 00:18:25,650 --> 00:18:27,809 And if I didn't do Banyan Vines and 500 00:18:27,809 --> 00:18:28,789 I didn't do 501 00:18:29,275 --> 00:18:30,095 Novo NetWare 502 00:18:31,035 --> 00:18:31,535 and 503 00:18:31,875 --> 00:18:32,375 LAN, 504 00:18:32,875 --> 00:18:35,595 token bus and token ring and all that 505 00:18:35,595 --> 00:18:36,494 other nonsense 506 00:18:37,035 --> 00:18:38,795 because I had to actually learn how this 507 00:18:38,795 --> 00:18:41,275 stuff worked, right, and why you use it 508 00:18:41,275 --> 00:18:42,095 certain ways. 509 00:18:43,515 --> 00:18:44,015 So 510 00:18:44,990 --> 00:18:45,650 are we 511 00:18:46,990 --> 00:18:47,809 does specialization 512 00:18:48,430 --> 00:18:48,930 hurt 513 00:18:49,630 --> 00:18:52,610 career growth when it becomes too much, 514 00:18:54,029 --> 00:18:56,830 or should companies can companies find ways to 515 00:18:56,830 --> 00:18:58,289 make space for both? 516 00:18:59,384 --> 00:19:00,684 Is that a possibility? 517 00:19:01,865 --> 00:19:02,825 I I think there's, 518 00:19:03,545 --> 00:19:05,224 I think it's possible that there could be 519 00:19:05,224 --> 00:19:07,224 in terms of one person's career, there could 520 00:19:07,224 --> 00:19:09,244 be like a skinny waste type model 521 00:19:09,545 --> 00:19:11,144 that you start with what you talked about, 522 00:19:11,144 --> 00:19:12,744 Russ. And and that was similar for me 523 00:19:12,744 --> 00:19:15,009 and sounds like Yvonne maybe similar there too. 524 00:19:15,009 --> 00:19:16,450 Like, you you when you first start, you 525 00:19:16,450 --> 00:19:18,529 do other you do different things and you 526 00:19:18,529 --> 00:19:20,130 don't get too deep in any of them. 527 00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:22,609 And then something draws your attention, whatever you 528 00:19:22,609 --> 00:19:24,230 start to to specialize. 529 00:19:24,690 --> 00:19:25,990 But then I think 530 00:19:26,325 --> 00:19:28,244 I think the need the the need for 531 00:19:28,244 --> 00:19:30,724 generalists is such that, you know, you so 532 00:19:30,724 --> 00:19:32,325 you start broad, you go up to the 533 00:19:32,325 --> 00:19:33,625 skinny waste of a, 534 00:19:34,404 --> 00:19:37,444 of a specialization. And because specializing in itself, 535 00:19:37,444 --> 00:19:39,690 regardless of the area, trains your mind in 536 00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:41,329 a certain way that you're not gonna get 537 00:19:41,329 --> 00:19:42,710 by generalized generalized, 538 00:19:43,009 --> 00:19:45,410 application of knowledge. And then and then after 539 00:19:45,410 --> 00:19:47,410 that, what if you spread out again? 540 00:19:47,730 --> 00:19:49,250 I did a a bit of a career. 541 00:19:49,250 --> 00:19:51,089 It was a pretty big period change about 542 00:19:51,089 --> 00:19:52,929 five years ago, doing very different things than 543 00:19:52,929 --> 00:19:55,105 I was doing before that as a specialist. 544 00:19:55,484 --> 00:19:58,045 And I found, as I did that, that 545 00:19:58,045 --> 00:20:00,605 my previous knowledge was instrumental. It didn't put 546 00:20:00,605 --> 00:20:02,065 me behind. It put me ahead. 547 00:20:02,445 --> 00:20:04,125 And and the biggest thing I was concerned 548 00:20:04,125 --> 00:20:06,045 about was, am I behind all these people 549 00:20:06,045 --> 00:20:08,039 because I'm doing something different and broader now? 550 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,600 No way. Specializing helped me to be a 551 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,119 better generalist. And I don't know I don't 552 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,200 know if that's a if that's a a 553 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,200 a model for career development, but I feel 554 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,680 like, with your people, that probably should be 555 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,359 about the same thing. There should be you 556 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,380 should have some generalist and some specialists, 557 00:20:22,714 --> 00:20:24,954 and they should be moving somewhere along if 558 00:20:24,954 --> 00:20:26,315 that's a model. You know, they should be 559 00:20:26,315 --> 00:20:27,434 moving somewhere along it. 560 00:20:29,115 --> 00:20:31,195 I don't know. It it just the your 561 00:20:31,195 --> 00:20:33,535 ability to think and to think differently, 562 00:20:33,914 --> 00:20:35,755 to think as a specialist in a generalist 563 00:20:35,755 --> 00:20:37,914 environment is very has been very valuable to 564 00:20:37,914 --> 00:20:38,414 me. 565 00:20:39,869 --> 00:20:40,369 So 566 00:20:40,750 --> 00:20:42,670 what do you think, Yvonne? You're the closest 567 00:20:42,670 --> 00:20:44,269 to a man you mean, you're the closest 568 00:20:44,269 --> 00:20:47,070 to management of all of us. Don't remind 569 00:20:47,070 --> 00:20:48,670 me. It's it's been the kinda week where 570 00:20:48,670 --> 00:20:51,250 I'm like, what have I done? No. 571 00:20:51,870 --> 00:20:53,474 I yeah. I think 572 00:20:54,515 --> 00:20:56,355 I think you do have to have a 573 00:20:56,355 --> 00:20:58,934 a place for both. I think talent development 574 00:20:59,234 --> 00:21:02,115 and thinking about that and aligning it with 575 00:21:02,115 --> 00:21:04,194 your organization is a really it's really the 576 00:21:04,194 --> 00:21:05,714 reason that companies don't do it well is 577 00:21:05,714 --> 00:21:07,015 because it's really hard. 578 00:21:08,069 --> 00:21:09,750 It's really hard to do that, 579 00:21:10,150 --> 00:21:12,230 especially depending on what the nature of your 580 00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:14,789 business is. But I do think it's very 581 00:21:14,789 --> 00:21:17,910 important. I also think if you're going to 582 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:18,970 deeply specialize, 583 00:21:20,069 --> 00:21:22,569 you have to have some sense 584 00:21:23,345 --> 00:21:25,605 of what's valuable and what 585 00:21:26,144 --> 00:21:27,525 kind of deep specialization 586 00:21:27,825 --> 00:21:29,445 people are willing to pay for. 587 00:21:30,065 --> 00:21:33,424 Because if, you know and and and, Russ, 588 00:21:33,424 --> 00:21:34,945 I've heard you say this, that you had 589 00:21:34,945 --> 00:21:37,125 a colleague that said he wanted to be 590 00:21:37,220 --> 00:21:39,380 a deep subject matter expert on a protocol 591 00:21:39,380 --> 00:21:40,359 that no one uses. 592 00:21:40,660 --> 00:21:43,480 Don Slauson. Yep. Which is which is fine 593 00:21:43,859 --> 00:21:46,420 as long as the company that you work 594 00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:46,920 for 595 00:21:47,619 --> 00:21:49,400 still acknowledges that they need that protocol. 596 00:21:49,859 --> 00:21:51,079 Yep. But once 597 00:21:51,505 --> 00:21:54,144 people realize, oh, hey. We really don't need 598 00:21:54,144 --> 00:21:55,365 this protocol anymore, 599 00:21:56,304 --> 00:21:58,784 then then you've got a problem. Right? So 600 00:21:58,784 --> 00:22:01,284 I think that is the other big question 601 00:22:01,424 --> 00:22:01,924 that 602 00:22:02,304 --> 00:22:04,724 we have to constantly be thinking about. 603 00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:06,640 Yeah. Is is there a market for what 604 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,860 I know how to do? 605 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:08,740 And 606 00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:09,779 how is 607 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,220 how's the world changing to make that 608 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,539 that to to to change 609 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,400 where I need to be focusing? And and 610 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,714 if you pay attention typically, you can stay 611 00:22:20,714 --> 00:22:21,775 ahead of that curve. 612 00:22:22,875 --> 00:22:24,575 But there are many people who 613 00:22:25,515 --> 00:22:28,234 don't or haven't or think their skills of 614 00:22:28,234 --> 00:22:29,375 ten years ago 615 00:22:29,755 --> 00:22:31,275 are gonna be enough to carry them through 616 00:22:31,275 --> 00:22:32,494 the end of their career. 617 00:22:33,210 --> 00:22:35,369 And depending that that may not be the 618 00:22:35,369 --> 00:22:37,210 case. I the thing that's top of mind 619 00:22:37,210 --> 00:22:38,650 for me now are the all those people 620 00:22:38,650 --> 00:22:40,990 who spent all those years specializing in VMware. 621 00:22:41,849 --> 00:22:43,470 Deep subject matter experts 622 00:22:44,329 --> 00:22:45,549 really knew that domain, 623 00:22:46,009 --> 00:22:47,450 really thought that would be where they would 624 00:22:47,450 --> 00:22:49,515 be to spend the rest of their career. 625 00:22:49,515 --> 00:22:51,994 And there's still absolutely a need for that. 626 00:22:51,994 --> 00:22:53,615 But there's been a change in the market, 627 00:22:53,674 --> 00:22:55,534 and there's been a change in that company, 628 00:22:56,075 --> 00:22:58,414 and there's gonna be a change in demand 629 00:22:59,194 --> 00:23:00,575 for that deep expertise. 630 00:23:01,434 --> 00:23:01,674 And, 631 00:23:03,019 --> 00:23:04,880 that's why your tea is important. 632 00:23:06,139 --> 00:23:08,380 Yeah. And so that's that's another thing to 633 00:23:08,380 --> 00:23:10,619 think about as somebody who's thinking about this 634 00:23:10,619 --> 00:23:11,839 from a career perspective 635 00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:13,039 is that 636 00:23:13,339 --> 00:23:16,880 companies don't always expose where they actually hurt. 637 00:23:18,934 --> 00:23:21,654 They're at they actually managers will tend to 638 00:23:21,654 --> 00:23:24,375 upper level up level management and down will 639 00:23:24,375 --> 00:23:26,394 actually normally tend to expose 640 00:23:27,335 --> 00:23:28,795 what most impacts 641 00:23:29,654 --> 00:23:31,835 their next move or their perception 642 00:23:32,134 --> 00:23:32,875 of performance, 643 00:23:34,250 --> 00:23:36,909 not where the company is actually hurting. 644 00:23:37,849 --> 00:23:39,369 So sometimes you have to look at the 645 00:23:39,690 --> 00:23:41,929 go a step further and say they may 646 00:23:41,929 --> 00:23:44,009 not know. They may not know. They really 647 00:23:44,009 --> 00:23:46,009 don't know because the higher up you get 648 00:23:46,009 --> 00:23:48,315 in an organization, the more noise there is, 649 00:23:48,554 --> 00:23:50,254 And the harder it gets 650 00:23:50,875 --> 00:23:52,974 to pick out the signal from the noise. 651 00:23:53,355 --> 00:23:54,095 And so, 652 00:23:54,554 --> 00:23:55,835 I am we know that there are lots 653 00:23:55,835 --> 00:23:58,554 of squeaky people out there who squeak about 654 00:23:58,554 --> 00:24:00,315 a lot of nothing. And then you've got 655 00:24:00,315 --> 00:24:03,240 the hardworking folks that are, you know, showing 656 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:04,940 up every day, doing their job, 657 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,320 doing some glue work to try and keep 658 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,200 things going that nobody knows is getting done. 659 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,279 I think I think that's the other thing 660 00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:14,539 is that people often believe that folks 661 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,380 know and are just ignoring. 662 00:24:16,855 --> 00:24:19,255 A lot of times they really don't know 663 00:24:19,255 --> 00:24:22,554 because it's so noisy. They can't they can't 664 00:24:22,615 --> 00:24:23,755 suss out that signal. 665 00:24:24,134 --> 00:24:25,974 And and that's a whole different set of 666 00:24:25,974 --> 00:24:27,734 skills that we could talk about, but probably 667 00:24:27,974 --> 00:24:29,734 Yeah. Right. Podcast. But but as far as 668 00:24:29,734 --> 00:24:31,974 specialization goes, if you're thinking about what you're 669 00:24:31,974 --> 00:24:33,570 gonna build your t shaped knowledge 670 00:24:33,950 --> 00:24:34,450 on, 671 00:24:34,830 --> 00:24:36,369 something to think about is 672 00:24:36,750 --> 00:24:39,490 don't look for what your manager is necessarily 673 00:24:39,710 --> 00:24:40,609 telling you 674 00:24:41,150 --> 00:24:42,049 is the problem 675 00:24:42,590 --> 00:24:44,130 that needs to be fixed. 676 00:24:44,670 --> 00:24:46,350 That's a good that may be a good 677 00:24:46,350 --> 00:24:47,330 starting point. 678 00:24:47,875 --> 00:24:49,335 But the reality is 679 00:24:49,875 --> 00:24:52,914 it probably is tangential or even orthogonal to 680 00:24:52,914 --> 00:24:53,414 something 681 00:24:53,794 --> 00:24:55,255 that really is important. 682 00:24:56,355 --> 00:24:58,934 And and it's just because they don't know. 683 00:25:00,029 --> 00:25:02,509 I I I really like, your example about 684 00:25:02,509 --> 00:25:04,049 VMware, Yvonne, because, 685 00:25:05,549 --> 00:25:07,789 there there's a way to there's a specialist 686 00:25:07,789 --> 00:25:10,029 generalist way to look at this too. So 687 00:25:10,029 --> 00:25:12,615 if if you specialized in that product and 688 00:25:12,615 --> 00:25:13,894 just spent all of your time and there 689 00:25:13,894 --> 00:25:15,414 is so much knowledge that it's easy, I 690 00:25:15,414 --> 00:25:16,474 could see I could easily 691 00:25:16,775 --> 00:25:17,414 get get, 692 00:25:17,894 --> 00:25:19,494 you could spend ten years learning in that 693 00:25:19,494 --> 00:25:19,994 product. 694 00:25:20,775 --> 00:25:23,575 But another strategy would be to say, alright. 695 00:25:23,575 --> 00:25:25,335 I'm working on VMware. I think this is 696 00:25:25,335 --> 00:25:26,075 kinda cool. 697 00:25:27,380 --> 00:25:28,900 Probably another way to look at it as 698 00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:30,519 a set of let me learn this product. 699 00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:32,339 It would be learn let me learn this 700 00:25:32,339 --> 00:25:35,319 technology group. Let me learn how virtualization works. 701 00:25:35,539 --> 00:25:37,140 And the thing that's cool about that is 702 00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:38,500 that you can once you have a little 703 00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:40,419 bit of that, you can start to challenge 704 00:25:40,419 --> 00:25:41,720 the vendor of the product 705 00:25:42,025 --> 00:25:43,704 and you can say, okay, well how does 706 00:25:43,704 --> 00:25:45,724 this work? What is like for virtualization? 707 00:25:46,184 --> 00:25:47,944 Does such and such support s r s 708 00:25:47,944 --> 00:25:49,545 r I o v? Do I really get 709 00:25:49,545 --> 00:25:51,384 all of those PCI channels that I'm supposed 710 00:25:51,384 --> 00:25:53,065 to get? Like and and what about this 711 00:25:53,065 --> 00:25:54,825 and what about that hardware? And like you 712 00:25:54,825 --> 00:25:57,565 can in the process of challenging product vendors, 713 00:25:58,169 --> 00:26:00,569 I think you learn a lot about multiple 714 00:26:00,569 --> 00:26:02,490 domains simultaneously. I feel like early in my 715 00:26:02,490 --> 00:26:04,009 career, I spent a lot of time challenging 716 00:26:04,009 --> 00:26:04,829 product vendors 717 00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:05,710 and, 718 00:26:06,169 --> 00:26:08,329 it it gave me it gave me social 719 00:26:08,329 --> 00:26:10,089 skills, but it also, like, helped me to 720 00:26:10,089 --> 00:26:12,009 ask technical questions in a in a correct 721 00:26:12,009 --> 00:26:13,815 way. But none of that would have happened 722 00:26:13,815 --> 00:26:14,974 if I would've if I would just said, 723 00:26:14,974 --> 00:26:16,535 oh, I just wanna buy Cisco stuff. And 724 00:26:16,535 --> 00:26:18,214 I don't want like, if the brand and 725 00:26:18,214 --> 00:26:18,875 the product 726 00:26:19,174 --> 00:26:21,015 were the focus, you know. But if it's 727 00:26:21,015 --> 00:26:23,815 the technology area, then if you wanna learn 728 00:26:23,815 --> 00:26:26,089 how how things like this work, I feel 729 00:26:26,089 --> 00:26:27,450 like it's like that's a lot more safe 730 00:26:27,450 --> 00:26:29,529 and it also I think it drives more 731 00:26:29,529 --> 00:26:30,970 expertise. At least I I feel like it 732 00:26:30,970 --> 00:26:31,789 has for me. 733 00:26:32,250 --> 00:26:34,650 And and that's an important distinction there, Tom, 734 00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:37,630 that you're making is vendor specialization 735 00:26:38,330 --> 00:26:39,869 and technology specialization. 736 00:26:40,765 --> 00:26:42,304 And always, always, always, 737 00:26:42,605 --> 00:26:44,625 you can work for and with a vendor, 738 00:26:44,765 --> 00:26:47,025 and and we all do and have. 739 00:26:48,845 --> 00:26:50,625 And and it's fine to even 740 00:26:51,325 --> 00:26:54,704 have some significant loyalty, but it's also important 741 00:26:55,289 --> 00:26:56,830 to distinguish in your mind 742 00:26:57,610 --> 00:27:00,650 what's the technology that I'm specializing in and 743 00:27:00,650 --> 00:27:03,850 what's the product that I'm specializing in. Because 744 00:27:03,850 --> 00:27:04,590 the technology 745 00:27:05,210 --> 00:27:05,610 often 746 00:27:06,904 --> 00:27:09,325 even if it goes away, it's gonna reinvent 747 00:27:09,384 --> 00:27:11,005 itself in another iteration. 748 00:27:12,024 --> 00:27:14,764 And you can use those skills still, 749 00:27:15,784 --> 00:27:16,684 like virtualization. 750 00:27:17,144 --> 00:27:19,804 Right? Like, how many different forms of virtualization 751 00:27:20,024 --> 00:27:22,519 do we have now? We've we've we've not 752 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:24,200 got we've not only got all the public 753 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:24,700 clouds, 754 00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:25,819 containers 755 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:27,179 and Kubernetes. 756 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,839 That's another form of virtualization and orchestration. We've 757 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:31,980 got all kinds of 758 00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:33,339 app virtualization 759 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,220 that goes on, and those concepts of abstraction, 760 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,075 all that carry across. 761 00:27:38,694 --> 00:27:41,174 So it's also important for specialists to think 762 00:27:41,174 --> 00:27:42,474 in terms of the technology, 763 00:27:43,174 --> 00:27:44,234 not the brand 764 00:27:44,615 --> 00:27:47,255 of what they're working in. Yeah. Just like 765 00:27:47,255 --> 00:27:48,954 if you think about networking. Right? 766 00:27:49,470 --> 00:27:52,190 Do you specialize in protocols, or do you 767 00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:53,410 specialize in 768 00:27:54,029 --> 00:27:55,549 how does the network work? Like, this to 769 00:27:55,549 --> 00:27:57,549 me is the difference between the OSI model 770 00:27:57,549 --> 00:27:59,169 and the RHNA model. 771 00:27:59,549 --> 00:28:01,710 Is that the RHNA model says, I've got 772 00:28:01,710 --> 00:28:03,009 to solve these four problems. 773 00:28:03,384 --> 00:28:04,825 Well, what are the four way what are 774 00:28:04,825 --> 00:28:06,984 the ways I solve those problems? Well, guess 775 00:28:06,984 --> 00:28:07,484 what? 776 00:28:07,785 --> 00:28:09,724 Every protocol in the world 777 00:28:10,025 --> 00:28:12,765 solves this problem in one of four ways, 778 00:28:13,144 --> 00:28:15,785 six ways, three ways. If I know those 779 00:28:15,785 --> 00:28:16,285 ways, 780 00:28:16,904 --> 00:28:18,125 I know all protocols. 781 00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:21,599 And therefore, you know, I'm able to pick 782 00:28:21,599 --> 00:28:22,579 up new protocols. 783 00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:24,480 The same thing is gonna be true, by 784 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:25,779 the way, in software development. 785 00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:28,419 Oh, there is a loop structure. 786 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:30,500 Every 787 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:31,460 every 788 00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:32,339 language 789 00:28:32,954 --> 00:28:35,914 solves loops, and there are basically three kinds 790 00:28:35,914 --> 00:28:38,234 of loops. There are basically three or four 791 00:28:38,234 --> 00:28:39,534 kinds of data structures. 792 00:28:40,394 --> 00:28:42,714 You just gotta go figure out how they 793 00:28:42,714 --> 00:28:43,934 do those things. 794 00:28:44,315 --> 00:28:45,835 And if you think in terms of the 795 00:28:45,835 --> 00:28:46,654 data structures 796 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:49,660 or in terms of the loops, the the 797 00:28:49,660 --> 00:28:50,640 the code structure, 798 00:28:51,179 --> 00:28:53,419 you stop thinking about whether this is in 799 00:28:53,419 --> 00:28:54,559 C or Rust 800 00:28:55,099 --> 00:28:55,599 or 801 00:28:56,140 --> 00:28:56,640 Python. 802 00:28:57,259 --> 00:28:59,660 You start thinking about how is this software 803 00:28:59,660 --> 00:29:01,599 structured. I need to outline it. 804 00:29:02,134 --> 00:29:04,534 I'll bet you I've never looked into it. 805 00:29:04,534 --> 00:29:06,294 I'll bet you there is the same thing 806 00:29:06,294 --> 00:29:07,115 for virtualization 807 00:29:07,494 --> 00:29:07,994 technologies. 808 00:29:09,014 --> 00:29:11,595 That there's only three or four ways 809 00:29:12,134 --> 00:29:14,875 to solve any particular issue in virtualization, 810 00:29:16,534 --> 00:29:17,034 and 811 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,480 that's what you got. Concept of primitives. Right? 812 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,259 You're only gonna have so many primitives. 813 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,880 I think where specialization, you think about software 814 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,220 development comes in. Like, if you're 815 00:29:27,839 --> 00:29:30,734 if you're performance tuning, you've got really 816 00:29:31,134 --> 00:29:33,855 tight ties between hardware and software, and you 817 00:29:33,855 --> 00:29:35,474 really are trying to performance 818 00:29:36,015 --> 00:29:36,515 tune 819 00:29:36,894 --> 00:29:39,315 or you're working in a low resource environment, 820 00:29:39,934 --> 00:29:40,994 this very 821 00:29:41,375 --> 00:29:44,335 specifics of a particular language then become very, 822 00:29:44,335 --> 00:29:46,250 very important. Yep. Right? 823 00:29:47,190 --> 00:29:48,630 You know, you're gonna use c, you're gonna 824 00:29:48,630 --> 00:29:50,070 use c c plus plus, you're not gonna 825 00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:52,470 use Python if you want something that's heavily 826 00:29:52,470 --> 00:29:54,150 optimized. Right? But if you want something that's 827 00:29:54,150 --> 00:29:56,309 very language based, very easy to read and 828 00:29:56,309 --> 00:29:58,390 understand and write, all that, like, it might 829 00:29:58,390 --> 00:30:00,964 be the right option. So those those kinds 830 00:30:00,964 --> 00:30:03,144 of nuances do become really important. 831 00:30:04,085 --> 00:30:06,164 Sometimes you just have to pivot because of 832 00:30:06,164 --> 00:30:08,724 where the market's going. But as Tom pointed 833 00:30:08,724 --> 00:30:11,444 out, if you have specialization in one, you 834 00:30:11,444 --> 00:30:13,589 can it will be easier to get it 835 00:30:14,069 --> 00:30:15,130 in another area. 836 00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:16,490 Yep. 837 00:30:17,109 --> 00:30:19,109 There. That's why that's why, Tom, when you 838 00:30:19,109 --> 00:30:20,089 talk about generalization, 839 00:30:20,630 --> 00:30:22,409 the wasp waste and in generalization, 840 00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:24,309 you come to the narrow point and you 841 00:30:24,309 --> 00:30:26,470 go back out. I think that's the reason 842 00:30:26,470 --> 00:30:28,569 you get to that wasp waste 843 00:30:29,115 --> 00:30:29,855 is because 844 00:30:30,154 --> 00:30:33,194 once you've learned a technology, you've you've taken 845 00:30:33,194 --> 00:30:34,734 this broad base, 846 00:30:35,275 --> 00:30:37,434 poured it into a specialization. But if you 847 00:30:37,434 --> 00:30:38,734 do it the correct way, 848 00:30:39,275 --> 00:30:41,694 you now have built effectively a foundation 849 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,500 that allows you to go out and say, 850 00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:48,420 oh, sure. That's VMware and that's Docker. 851 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,759 Okay. But they both have to solve this 852 00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:54,579 set of problems, which I learned by studying 853 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:55,140 VMware. 854 00:30:56,765 --> 00:30:59,184 But now I know what the problems are. 855 00:30:59,724 --> 00:31:01,964 I know how VMware solve those problems, not 856 00:31:01,964 --> 00:31:03,724 just how to configure it and, you know, 857 00:31:03,724 --> 00:31:05,244 what they call it and blah blah blah. 858 00:31:05,244 --> 00:31:07,565 I understand how it solved the problem. How 859 00:31:07,565 --> 00:31:09,585 does Docker solve that problem? 860 00:31:10,380 --> 00:31:12,960 Now I'm actually asking the correct questions 861 00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:15,440 to broaden back out. 862 00:31:15,820 --> 00:31:17,820 So, I mean, I guess in terms of 863 00:31:17,820 --> 00:31:18,559 the article, 864 00:31:19,579 --> 00:31:20,079 specialization 865 00:31:21,019 --> 00:31:23,500 is a problem, but it's only a problem 866 00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:25,359 in a specific way to me 867 00:31:25,845 --> 00:31:28,424 In that, if we all become hyper specialized 868 00:31:28,644 --> 00:31:31,044 or I'm sorry. Generalization is a problem, but 869 00:31:31,044 --> 00:31:32,565 it's only a problem in a certain way 870 00:31:32,565 --> 00:31:34,724 to me in that if we never become 871 00:31:34,724 --> 00:31:35,224 specialist. 872 00:31:36,085 --> 00:31:37,464 If there's never that 873 00:31:38,210 --> 00:31:40,630 that point where we become the specialist 874 00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:43,269 that helps us to go back out 875 00:31:43,650 --> 00:31:45,750 and be better later on. 876 00:31:46,690 --> 00:31:49,009 So maybe that's a way of looking at 877 00:31:49,009 --> 00:31:51,365 it. I don't know. Think the the my 878 00:31:51,365 --> 00:31:53,625 feeling from the article is if you're if 879 00:31:54,005 --> 00:31:56,244 if the industry seems like in the job 880 00:31:56,244 --> 00:31:58,825 market seems like it will seek out generalists 881 00:31:59,045 --> 00:32:01,525 first. Yeah. And if you it's not really 882 00:32:01,525 --> 00:32:04,485 gonna it's not optimized for specialists the market 883 00:32:04,485 --> 00:32:04,985 itself. 884 00:32:06,059 --> 00:32:07,900 So if you if, like, if you want 885 00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:08,480 to specialize, 886 00:32:09,259 --> 00:32:10,779 someone else is not gonna do that for 887 00:32:10,779 --> 00:32:13,099 you. There's gonna be no external pressure to 888 00:32:13,099 --> 00:32:15,419 say, hey, you should specialize. Yep. It'll be 889 00:32:15,419 --> 00:32:17,565 your own curiosity. It'll be in your own 890 00:32:18,125 --> 00:32:20,204 realization that I want or need to do 891 00:32:20,204 --> 00:32:20,684 this. 892 00:32:21,244 --> 00:32:23,404 And that's a big differentiator for because some 893 00:32:23,404 --> 00:32:26,044 people, they they just wanna respond to the 894 00:32:26,044 --> 00:32:27,644 market and what other people want them to 895 00:32:27,644 --> 00:32:29,484 do, and that's their path in life. That's 896 00:32:29,484 --> 00:32:31,164 okay. But then there's other people who are 897 00:32:31,164 --> 00:32:32,764 who are a little more type a about 898 00:32:32,764 --> 00:32:34,250 it, I think. And 899 00:32:34,630 --> 00:32:36,549 and I think it's it's not it's probably 900 00:32:36,549 --> 00:32:38,070 not reasonable to think that the market is 901 00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:40,009 going to, push you towards 902 00:32:40,390 --> 00:32:40,890 specializing, 903 00:32:41,670 --> 00:32:42,730 in the current climate. 904 00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:44,549 Yeah. And I think there's a there's one 905 00:32:44,549 --> 00:32:47,784 more component to that too, and it's industries 906 00:32:48,085 --> 00:32:48,825 go through 907 00:32:49,204 --> 00:32:49,704 phases 908 00:32:50,325 --> 00:32:50,825 where 909 00:32:52,565 --> 00:32:54,424 they're in the act of being disrupted 910 00:32:55,525 --> 00:32:56,984 or in the act of stabilizing, 911 00:32:57,765 --> 00:33:00,484 and that requires a different set of skills 912 00:33:00,484 --> 00:33:03,960 as well. Right? Yep. And right now we're 913 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,559 in the middle of an industry that's in 914 00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:07,019 the act of being disrupted, 915 00:33:07,559 --> 00:33:10,359 especially when you're talking about software development. So 916 00:33:10,359 --> 00:33:13,559 people may be looking for broader skills right 917 00:33:13,559 --> 00:33:15,160 now because they don't know where things are 918 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:16,059 gonna land. 919 00:33:16,994 --> 00:33:18,694 Right? And so and then, 920 00:33:19,315 --> 00:33:21,075 like, it's it's like, you know, do I 921 00:33:21,075 --> 00:33:23,954 hire a VHS technician or do I hire 922 00:33:23,954 --> 00:33:26,434 a Betamax technician or do I hire somebody 923 00:33:26,434 --> 00:33:28,355 who can do both? Well, at one point 924 00:33:28,355 --> 00:33:30,214 in time, you needed both. 925 00:33:30,849 --> 00:33:31,589 And eventually 926 00:33:32,130 --> 00:33:33,730 I'm sorry if I'm dating myself. If you 927 00:33:33,730 --> 00:33:34,789 don't know what BHS 928 00:33:35,089 --> 00:33:35,589 is, 929 00:33:36,289 --> 00:33:38,210 I know you were born after the turn 930 00:33:38,210 --> 00:33:40,289 of the century, the most recent one. But 931 00:33:40,289 --> 00:33:40,789 anyway, 932 00:33:41,809 --> 00:33:44,069 it it you know, like, 933 00:33:44,529 --> 00:33:45,269 the market 934 00:33:46,005 --> 00:33:48,565 figures itself out, and then it gets confused 935 00:33:48,565 --> 00:33:49,065 again. 936 00:33:49,445 --> 00:33:51,625 And so that's also gonna determine 937 00:33:52,325 --> 00:33:52,825 both 938 00:33:53,204 --> 00:33:54,585 when what specializations 939 00:33:55,125 --> 00:33:55,625 are 940 00:33:55,924 --> 00:33:56,424 desired 941 00:33:56,964 --> 00:34:00,220 and how much specialization is desired. And I 942 00:34:00,220 --> 00:34:01,579 think that could be part of what we're 943 00:34:01,579 --> 00:34:03,339 we're reading about too. It's like there's just 944 00:34:03,339 --> 00:34:05,259 so much disruption going on. People don't know 945 00:34:05,259 --> 00:34:07,019 what they need. And they don't know because 946 00:34:07,019 --> 00:34:08,380 they really don't know, and they can't know 947 00:34:08,380 --> 00:34:09,359 yet. Yeah. 948 00:34:10,139 --> 00:34:12,300 And I would also say don't be afraid 949 00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:15,224 to self specialize to some degree just by 950 00:34:15,224 --> 00:34:17,144 yourself, as Tom says, even though the market 951 00:34:17,144 --> 00:34:18,204 doesn't drive you. 952 00:34:18,585 --> 00:34:20,905 Because you know on the other side of 953 00:34:20,905 --> 00:34:21,405 that, 954 00:34:22,905 --> 00:34:25,484 you're actually gonna become a better generalist 955 00:34:27,545 --> 00:34:28,764 via that process. 956 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,579 So, you know, don't don't be scared of, 957 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,039 I'm gonna go learn one protocol or I'm 958 00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:36,420 gonna go learn one 959 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:37,300 virtualization 960 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:39,619 system in-depth and in detail. 961 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,079 But as long as you're approaching it the 962 00:34:42,079 --> 00:34:42,820 right way, 963 00:34:43,125 --> 00:34:44,505 it leads to 964 00:34:45,045 --> 00:34:45,545 better 965 00:34:45,925 --> 00:34:47,065 overall thinking 966 00:34:47,605 --> 00:34:48,344 and generalization 967 00:34:48,724 --> 00:34:49,545 in the future. 968 00:34:50,085 --> 00:34:51,445 Yeah. I think there's I think there's a 969 00:34:51,445 --> 00:34:52,585 fair amount of anxiety. 970 00:34:53,445 --> 00:34:55,445 Well, what if I specialize and it's the 971 00:34:55,445 --> 00:34:58,005 wrong thing? Am I screwed now? Like, have 972 00:34:58,005 --> 00:35:00,359 I And I don't know. I maybe this 973 00:35:00,359 --> 00:35:01,260 is just because I've 974 00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:03,319 been around long enough, but I I I 975 00:35:03,319 --> 00:35:04,059 think that's 976 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,480 not a concern really. Like, specialize in something, 977 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,159 you're good at something, and you'll be able 978 00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:10,839 to figure it out. Like, you'll be able 979 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,054 you're smart enough. Like, everybody listening to this 980 00:35:13,054 --> 00:35:14,574 is smart enough to figure out. You learn 981 00:35:14,574 --> 00:35:16,014 one technology, you'll be able to figure out 982 00:35:16,014 --> 00:35:18,094 another one. And Yeah. You're not gonna get 983 00:35:18,094 --> 00:35:19,375 trapped. It's not gonna oh, what if I 984 00:35:19,375 --> 00:35:21,054 specialize in Rust and then nobody wants to 985 00:35:21,054 --> 00:35:22,574 use Rust? It doesn't matter. Like, you figured 986 00:35:22,574 --> 00:35:23,775 out how to use that language. You you 987 00:35:23,775 --> 00:35:25,614 got it. You can do another one. Yeah. 988 00:35:25,614 --> 00:35:26,815 As long as you do it the right 989 00:35:26,815 --> 00:35:28,699 way. Sure. As long as you But I 990 00:35:28,699 --> 00:35:30,059 think what I think what Tom said is 991 00:35:30,059 --> 00:35:32,059 so important. I I I I've kind of 992 00:35:32,059 --> 00:35:34,219 graduated beyond. Like, I'm kinda tired of all 993 00:35:34,219 --> 00:35:35,599 the talk about imposter syndrome 994 00:35:36,380 --> 00:35:38,619 because, like, eventually like, you just gotta go 995 00:35:38,619 --> 00:35:40,219 do the thing. Just go do the thing. 996 00:35:40,219 --> 00:35:41,900 Stop fretting over whether you can do it 997 00:35:41,900 --> 00:35:43,994 or not. If you're listening to this, you 998 00:35:43,994 --> 00:35:47,054 care enough. You've got enough sense. Go go 999 00:35:47,194 --> 00:35:49,054 do the thing. It's better to do something 1000 00:35:49,675 --> 00:35:51,514 than nothing, and it's better to do the 1001 00:35:51,514 --> 00:35:54,234 wrong thing than nothing because you can pivot 1002 00:35:54,234 --> 00:35:55,135 the wrong thing 1003 00:35:55,929 --> 00:35:58,250 pretty easily. Nothing is a lot harder to 1004 00:35:58,250 --> 00:35:58,750 pivot. 1005 00:35:59,050 --> 00:35:59,550 Yep. 1006 00:35:59,929 --> 00:36:01,550 As Radio Pearlman says, 1007 00:36:02,570 --> 00:36:03,789 do the wrong thing. 1008 00:36:05,050 --> 00:36:07,550 Just go do it. Do the wrong thing. 1009 00:36:07,610 --> 00:36:08,750 Is is there a 1010 00:36:09,515 --> 00:36:12,315 spanning tree joke in there somewhere? There should 1011 00:36:12,315 --> 00:36:13,295 be. There is. 1012 00:36:15,355 --> 00:36:18,094 Ex existentially, there is. I guarantee you. 1013 00:36:19,275 --> 00:36:21,535 Oh my goodness. I couldn't help myself. 1014 00:36:23,589 --> 00:36:24,409 Oh, boy. 1015 00:36:24,710 --> 00:36:26,730 Alright. So we should wrap this up, 1016 00:36:27,269 --> 00:36:28,889 and it's been a great conversation 1017 00:36:29,349 --> 00:36:29,849 about, 1018 00:36:30,710 --> 00:36:31,210 specialization. 1019 00:36:32,869 --> 00:36:34,789 I don't know. My brain's nowhere as well, 1020 00:36:34,789 --> 00:36:36,469 Yvonne. I don't know what my problem is 1021 00:36:36,469 --> 00:36:38,574 today. It's We're recording this on a Friday 1022 00:36:38,574 --> 00:36:40,815 afternoon in advance of a long weekend, so 1023 00:36:40,815 --> 00:36:42,414 it's fine with me. You get a pass, 1024 00:36:42,414 --> 00:36:42,914 Russ. 1025 00:36:43,454 --> 00:36:45,695 Oh, thanks. The plant also gives you a 1026 00:36:45,695 --> 00:36:47,155 pass, Russ, so you got two. 1027 00:36:47,695 --> 00:36:50,255 Alright. But Tom, no. No pass from Tom. 1028 00:36:50,255 --> 00:36:51,554 No. No. No mercy. 1029 00:36:51,855 --> 00:36:52,515 No mercy. 1030 00:36:53,215 --> 00:36:53,715 Alright. 1031 00:36:54,190 --> 00:36:56,510 Alright. So, Yvonne, where can people find you 1032 00:36:56,510 --> 00:36:57,409 if they want to? 1033 00:36:57,789 --> 00:36:59,390 Yeah. You can find me on LinkedIn at 1034 00:36:59,390 --> 00:37:02,190 Yvonne Sharp. I'm I'm on Twitter at Sharp 1035 00:37:02,190 --> 00:37:04,429 Network. I'm lurking more than I am posting 1036 00:37:04,429 --> 00:37:05,090 these days. 1037 00:37:05,789 --> 00:37:07,409 But, yeah, reach out. 1038 00:37:07,805 --> 00:37:08,305 Alright. 1039 00:37:08,605 --> 00:37:10,224 And, Tom, say your word. 1040 00:37:12,285 --> 00:37:12,785 LinkedIn. 1041 00:37:13,965 --> 00:37:15,105 The pause varies. 1042 00:37:15,805 --> 00:37:16,704 Yeah. Yeah. 1043 00:37:17,244 --> 00:37:19,265 But but that's he's got a random 1044 00:37:19,739 --> 00:37:20,239 time 1045 00:37:20,539 --> 00:37:22,460 limit. I wonder if we could measure it 1046 00:37:22,460 --> 00:37:24,300 and do some kind of correlation with his 1047 00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:26,139 behavior and figure out what kind of mood 1048 00:37:26,139 --> 00:37:27,900 that Tom is in based on how long 1049 00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:30,380 he pauses every day. Please don't study my 1050 00:37:30,380 --> 00:37:30,880 behavior. 1051 00:37:33,099 --> 00:37:34,239 I don't wanna know. 1052 00:37:35,894 --> 00:37:36,394 Alright. 1053 00:37:36,695 --> 00:37:38,135 I'm Russ White. You can find me here 1054 00:37:38,135 --> 00:37:39,894 at the hedge, rule11.tech 1055 00:37:39,894 --> 00:37:40,555 on LinkedIn 1056 00:37:41,175 --> 00:37:43,574 and x as routing geek whenever I decide 1057 00:37:43,574 --> 00:37:45,434 to log in there. Who knows when? 1058 00:37:46,375 --> 00:37:47,894 Thank you for listening to this episode of 1059 00:37:47,894 --> 00:37:49,494 the hedge. We know that your attention is 1060 00:37:49,910 --> 00:37:51,829 we live in a attention driven economy, so 1061 00:37:51,829 --> 00:37:53,989 we appreciate your attention. We appreciate that you 1062 00:37:53,989 --> 00:37:55,989 listen all the way to the bitter end 1063 00:37:55,989 --> 00:37:57,910 of this episode, and we will catch you 1064 00:37:57,910 --> 00:37:58,730 next time.