1 00:00:01,599 --> 00:00:03,620 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,679 --> 00:00:06,660 where we dig into technology, business, and culture 3 00:00:06,719 --> 00:00:09,059 with the finest minds in computer networking. 4 00:00:20,414 --> 00:00:22,414 Now see, this is a back to back, 5 00:00:22,414 --> 00:00:23,695 so I don't know who to say hi 6 00:00:23,695 --> 00:00:24,195 to. 7 00:00:24,894 --> 00:00:26,414 Whoever I don't know I don't know what 8 00:00:26,414 --> 00:00:28,195 we should do. Like, I'm confused. 9 00:00:28,969 --> 00:00:30,489 It's only back to back for you. It's 10 00:00:30,489 --> 00:00:32,829 not back to back for the listener necessarily. 11 00:00:33,450 --> 00:00:35,530 I guess that's true. Yeah. Unless they save 12 00:00:35,530 --> 00:00:37,609 it up. Yeah. So if you're listening to 13 00:00:37,609 --> 00:00:39,949 this, I'll do all the normal stuff. Hello, 14 00:00:40,009 --> 00:00:40,509 Yvonne. 15 00:00:41,385 --> 00:00:43,164 Well, hi, Russ. How are you today? 16 00:00:45,225 --> 00:00:47,725 It's been a long time since we've talked. 17 00:00:48,664 --> 00:00:49,725 Yeah. Yeah. 18 00:00:50,024 --> 00:00:51,164 But, you know, actually, 19 00:00:52,424 --> 00:00:54,445 I will say that seeing you at Oticon 20 00:00:54,585 --> 00:00:55,325 was terrific. 21 00:00:56,369 --> 00:00:58,210 Yes. Yeah. It was right. We we got 22 00:00:58,210 --> 00:01:00,630 to see I'd never seen Tom in person. 23 00:01:01,009 --> 00:01:02,789 Yeah. He's taller than I expected. 24 00:01:03,809 --> 00:01:05,489 There's always this height thing. You never know. 25 00:01:05,489 --> 00:01:07,090 He keeps and this always happens to me 26 00:01:07,090 --> 00:01:09,075 when people keep their camera way up high. 27 00:01:09,314 --> 00:01:11,314 And then so you get a sense of 28 00:01:11,314 --> 00:01:13,875 their, you know, height, and then you meet 29 00:01:13,875 --> 00:01:15,394 them in person and you're like and I 30 00:01:15,394 --> 00:01:17,795 had several people that were like, oh, you're 31 00:01:17,795 --> 00:01:20,054 shorter than I thought you would be. Yes. 32 00:01:21,954 --> 00:01:23,814 I'm five foot two. 33 00:01:25,350 --> 00:01:27,510 So, yes, I am I am short. But, 34 00:01:27,510 --> 00:01:28,870 yeah, that was great to see you guys. 35 00:01:28,870 --> 00:01:30,890 We had dinner, had some fun and interesting 36 00:01:30,950 --> 00:01:31,450 conversation. 37 00:01:31,829 --> 00:01:33,350 I wish I wish my wife would have 38 00:01:33,350 --> 00:01:34,950 been able to come. She would have loved 39 00:01:34,950 --> 00:01:36,630 to have met you, Yvonne, but she was 40 00:01:36,630 --> 00:01:37,450 in Edmonton. 41 00:01:38,194 --> 00:01:38,674 So there's 42 00:01:39,155 --> 00:01:41,555 We met briefly once. Y'all came up for 43 00:01:41,555 --> 00:01:42,754 a k y nug, and I did get 44 00:01:42,754 --> 00:01:44,674 to meet you. Oh, that's right. That's correct. 45 00:01:44,674 --> 00:01:47,234 Yeah. Yeah. So But it's been a bit. 46 00:01:47,234 --> 00:01:48,515 Yeah. It's been a bit. It's been a 47 00:01:48,515 --> 00:01:51,474 long time. And and Tom Tom, it was 48 00:01:51,474 --> 00:01:53,340 a long way for him to get to 49 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:54,239 to OtterCon. 50 00:01:54,859 --> 00:01:57,259 So long. It was an arduous, like, twenty 51 00:01:57,259 --> 00:01:58,799 seven minutes from my house. 52 00:02:01,019 --> 00:02:02,700 Spent more time looking for parking than I 53 00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:03,439 did driving. 54 00:02:04,780 --> 00:02:07,340 Oh my goodness. Not a surprise. No. It's 55 00:02:07,340 --> 00:02:08,935 not. I I used to go into New 56 00:02:08,935 --> 00:02:10,375 York City all the time, and I would 57 00:02:10,375 --> 00:02:11,814 always take the train when I could, but 58 00:02:11,814 --> 00:02:13,814 sometimes I had to drive. And whenever I 59 00:02:13,814 --> 00:02:15,495 drove, I was like, I'm not looking for 60 00:02:15,495 --> 00:02:17,094 parking. As soon as I get through the 61 00:02:17,094 --> 00:02:19,495 Lincoln Tunnel, I'm gonna park at the at 62 00:02:19,495 --> 00:02:22,639 the 32nd Street Garage because there's always parking 63 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,039 available in the 32nd seat garage. And people 64 00:02:25,039 --> 00:02:27,120 are like, yeah. But you're going downtown. You 65 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:28,800 have to go, like, 40 blocks. I'm like, 66 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:29,620 I don't care. 67 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:34,020 Well, then you just hop on the subway. 68 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,894 Right? I mean, yeah. Or path or something. 69 00:02:36,955 --> 00:02:39,754 Yeah. Like, I'm not driving into town to 70 00:02:39,754 --> 00:02:41,834 try to find parking down down by Wall 71 00:02:41,834 --> 00:02:44,655 Street. That's just not gonna happen. That's insane. 72 00:02:45,914 --> 00:02:47,215 Alright. So sense? 73 00:02:47,514 --> 00:02:48,014 Yeah. 74 00:02:48,394 --> 00:02:48,894 So 75 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,639 today, we are talking about an article in 76 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:53,139 infrequently 77 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:54,340 noted, 78 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:57,379 which is interesting. It's a blog 79 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,080 by Alex Russell, and he only really talks 80 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:00,900 about browsers 81 00:03:01,519 --> 00:03:02,019 and 82 00:03:02,585 --> 00:03:05,224 standards and the process of progress. I have 83 00:03:05,224 --> 00:03:07,724 my whole thing about progress progress and progressivism 84 00:03:07,944 --> 00:03:10,185 that I could just talk for hours about. 85 00:03:10,185 --> 00:03:11,465 I need to write a book on it, 86 00:03:11,465 --> 00:03:12,125 but anyway. 87 00:03:13,064 --> 00:03:13,564 And 88 00:03:14,264 --> 00:03:16,664 the name of the blog post is Apple's 89 00:03:16,664 --> 00:03:17,884 Assault on Standards. 90 00:03:19,879 --> 00:03:20,539 And he's 91 00:03:21,159 --> 00:03:21,659 primarily 92 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:22,620 talking 93 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:24,060 about 94 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:25,900 how Apple 95 00:03:26,439 --> 00:03:26,939 has 96 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,780 used the power of the market to attack 97 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:31,340 interoperability. 98 00:03:32,675 --> 00:03:34,835 And I'll just say, before we start talking 99 00:03:34,835 --> 00:03:37,735 about this, that one of my most disliked 100 00:03:37,794 --> 00:03:39,814 things in the world of IT right now 101 00:03:40,194 --> 00:03:41,094 is calendaring. 102 00:03:43,155 --> 00:03:43,655 Like, 103 00:03:44,610 --> 00:03:47,349 if you don't have Google or Microsoft Calendar 104 00:03:47,569 --> 00:03:49,889 or both of those, you are out of 105 00:03:49,889 --> 00:03:51,430 luck when it comes to calendars, 106 00:03:52,210 --> 00:03:54,530 which I think is utterly ridiculous. There ought 107 00:03:54,530 --> 00:03:55,590 to be a standard 108 00:03:56,530 --> 00:03:57,030 calendar 109 00:03:57,889 --> 00:03:59,235 protocol. There is. 110 00:03:59,875 --> 00:04:01,094 No one uses it. 111 00:04:02,435 --> 00:04:04,935 Your only other option is something like Calendly, 112 00:04:05,395 --> 00:04:07,955 which is another service that aggregates all those 113 00:04:07,955 --> 00:04:10,194 things and pulls it together, but still requires 114 00:04:10,194 --> 00:04:11,495 a certain degree of 115 00:04:11,949 --> 00:04:14,430 human intervention to manage it. And, yes, it's 116 00:04:14,430 --> 00:04:15,250 a scenario 117 00:04:15,629 --> 00:04:16,289 in which 118 00:04:17,470 --> 00:04:18,449 none of the vendors 119 00:04:18,910 --> 00:04:20,370 saw enough value 120 00:04:21,069 --> 00:04:23,009 in implementing a standard 121 00:04:24,354 --> 00:04:27,794 that allows folks to use another system. That's 122 00:04:27,794 --> 00:04:29,974 that's my that's my read on it anyway. 123 00:04:30,115 --> 00:04:31,974 Yep. Right. They can make more money 124 00:04:32,754 --> 00:04:34,834 by not having a standard than they could 125 00:04:34,834 --> 00:04:35,394 by making 126 00:04:35,875 --> 00:04:38,430 at least that that was their impression. That 127 00:04:38,430 --> 00:04:40,830 was their understanding of the market correctly or 128 00:04:40,830 --> 00:04:42,290 incorrectly. That was 129 00:04:44,029 --> 00:04:46,050 the the their impression of the market. 130 00:04:46,670 --> 00:04:49,009 So I think here he's talking about 131 00:04:52,914 --> 00:04:54,375 he starts talking about 132 00:04:56,194 --> 00:04:56,694 interoperability 133 00:04:57,235 --> 00:05:00,615 and voluntary adoption of Internet Internet standards. 134 00:05:01,154 --> 00:05:02,834 And he's talking about the IAB and the 135 00:05:02,834 --> 00:05:03,334 IETF, 136 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,480 but this also applies to W3C, which is 137 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,379 one people very rarely think about. And W3C 138 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:10,580 does HTML. 139 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:12,500 So, 140 00:05:12,879 --> 00:05:14,259 IETF does HTTPS, 141 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:16,100 HTTP, 142 00:05:16,985 --> 00:05:19,564 and w three c does HTML and XML. 143 00:05:20,264 --> 00:05:21,625 And for those of you who don't know 144 00:05:21,625 --> 00:05:22,204 the answers, 145 00:05:22,504 --> 00:05:24,444 know what those are, shame on you. 146 00:05:25,625 --> 00:05:27,725 Aw. We don't shame people here, guys. 147 00:05:29,970 --> 00:05:30,470 And 148 00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:32,310 look, the standards conversation 149 00:05:33,009 --> 00:05:34,629 is as old as technology 150 00:05:35,250 --> 00:05:36,709 is has, as 151 00:05:37,170 --> 00:05:39,110 long as technologies existed. Even 152 00:05:39,569 --> 00:05:42,370 before there were technology standards, you've got, like, 153 00:05:42,370 --> 00:05:45,045 bolts and wrenches and tools and and things 154 00:05:45,045 --> 00:05:47,524 like that and standardization which has enabled people 155 00:05:47,524 --> 00:05:50,564 to build more faster, more interoperably. Right? So 156 00:05:50,564 --> 00:05:51,064 it's 157 00:05:51,444 --> 00:05:53,305 not purely a technology conversation. 158 00:05:54,165 --> 00:05:56,584 But the challenge is as technology 159 00:05:56,884 --> 00:05:58,504 has become more of a business, 160 00:05:59,580 --> 00:06:01,520 the implementation of standards 161 00:06:02,060 --> 00:06:02,879 has become 162 00:06:04,699 --> 00:06:05,199 fuzzier, 163 00:06:05,580 --> 00:06:07,600 maybe Yeah. Or less consistent. 164 00:06:08,300 --> 00:06:08,800 Yeah. 165 00:06:09,420 --> 00:06:09,920 Yeah. 166 00:06:10,699 --> 00:06:12,080 Companies have made decisions, 167 00:06:13,024 --> 00:06:16,725 more from a business revenue standpoint versus interoperability 168 00:06:17,105 --> 00:06:18,245 or from a purist, 169 00:06:18,865 --> 00:06:20,324 what's gonna make the technology 170 00:06:20,704 --> 00:06:23,764 operate the bit best standpoint. And so 171 00:06:24,064 --> 00:06:25,504 that's why you end up with folks like 172 00:06:25,504 --> 00:06:26,004 us 173 00:06:26,420 --> 00:06:30,180 harping about interoperability and standards. Right? Yeah. So 174 00:06:30,180 --> 00:06:32,580 it's interesting because I remember the first IETF 175 00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:34,920 draft I wrote so many years ago 176 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:37,540 and oh, the first one I actually read, 177 00:06:37,540 --> 00:06:40,425 and Yakov Rector, who's long gone by now, 178 00:06:41,064 --> 00:06:42,584 I asked him I was talking to him 179 00:06:42,584 --> 00:06:44,425 about writing this writing this spec, and he 180 00:06:44,425 --> 00:06:47,004 said, essentially, what you want to do 181 00:06:47,704 --> 00:06:49,564 is you want to write a specification 182 00:06:50,185 --> 00:06:52,425 that only people who are sitting in the 183 00:06:52,425 --> 00:06:52,925 room 184 00:06:54,270 --> 00:06:56,509 when it was written or no people who 185 00:06:56,509 --> 00:06:57,949 are sitting in the room when it was 186 00:06:57,949 --> 00:06:58,449 written 187 00:06:58,910 --> 00:06:59,649 can understand. 188 00:07:02,110 --> 00:07:04,350 Because what you want like some security through 189 00:07:04,350 --> 00:07:06,770 obscurity, Russ. Yeah. But no. But no. 190 00:07:07,389 --> 00:07:09,170 Because the reasoning is is that 191 00:07:09,524 --> 00:07:11,285 there are four or five vendors who participate 192 00:07:11,285 --> 00:07:13,605 in the IETF. You don't want people who 193 00:07:13,605 --> 00:07:14,425 don't participate 194 00:07:15,125 --> 00:07:16,805 to be able to understand how to implement 195 00:07:16,805 --> 00:07:17,305 it. 196 00:07:18,404 --> 00:07:20,584 And that was that was the thinking 197 00:07:20,964 --> 00:07:22,805 for a lot of people. And I think 198 00:07:22,805 --> 00:07:24,345 that changed a lot 199 00:07:24,699 --> 00:07:25,439 and became 200 00:07:25,740 --> 00:07:27,740 through the middle years of the IETF and 201 00:07:27,740 --> 00:07:28,879 became much more, 202 00:07:30,220 --> 00:07:31,899 no. We need to do this where people 203 00:07:31,899 --> 00:07:33,980 can implement it. And I think now the 204 00:07:33,980 --> 00:07:35,740 problem is is we've gotten on the other 205 00:07:35,740 --> 00:07:38,524 side of that and said, we can implement 206 00:07:38,524 --> 00:07:40,764 it 40,000 ways, so let's just write all 207 00:07:40,764 --> 00:07:42,704 40,000 up and create a camel. 208 00:07:43,724 --> 00:07:44,944 And don't 209 00:07:45,245 --> 00:07:47,824 don't bother. Like, we can call it interoperable 210 00:07:48,125 --> 00:07:49,745 so long as everybody follows 211 00:07:50,180 --> 00:07:52,419 standard a, b, or c, but a, b, 212 00:07:52,419 --> 00:07:53,479 and c don't interoperate. 213 00:07:53,939 --> 00:07:54,439 Right? 214 00:07:54,899 --> 00:07:56,339 That's kind of what I think we are 215 00:07:56,419 --> 00:07:58,019 where we are now. But but you've made 216 00:07:58,019 --> 00:08:00,019 it functionally impossible 217 00:08:00,339 --> 00:08:00,839 Yes. 218 00:08:01,949 --> 00:08:02,449 Which 219 00:08:02,954 --> 00:08:03,935 goes back to 220 00:08:04,475 --> 00:08:07,194 why why are we here? Yeah. Exactly. Why 221 00:08:07,194 --> 00:08:08,714 why do we do this? Why why do 222 00:08:08,714 --> 00:08:10,735 we do this? Yes. Yeah. 223 00:08:11,035 --> 00:08:12,794 So I just I I think that's that's 224 00:08:12,794 --> 00:08:15,410 the natural progression of standards. So I don't 225 00:08:15,410 --> 00:08:17,250 think he takes that into account in here. 226 00:08:17,250 --> 00:08:19,269 But what is interesting to me about his 227 00:08:19,329 --> 00:08:20,790 claims about, like, Apple 228 00:08:21,169 --> 00:08:22,310 is that he says, 229 00:08:23,810 --> 00:08:26,529 Apple has attempted to weasel out of being 230 00:08:26,529 --> 00:08:27,110 a monopoly, 231 00:08:27,410 --> 00:08:27,910 basically, 232 00:08:28,414 --> 00:08:29,875 by saying that Safari 233 00:08:30,414 --> 00:08:32,975 is one product in some situations and three 234 00:08:32,975 --> 00:08:34,514 products in other situations. 235 00:08:35,214 --> 00:08:36,355 And that iPadOS, 236 00:08:37,214 --> 00:08:39,955 despite sharing nearly all code with iOS 237 00:08:40,569 --> 00:08:42,970 and marketed under that brand for years, so 238 00:08:42,970 --> 00:08:44,110 they're both called iOS. 239 00:08:44,490 --> 00:08:46,990 But internally, they're managed as two separate products, 240 00:08:47,370 --> 00:08:48,269 and they share 241 00:08:48,730 --> 00:08:50,429 the vast majority of the code, 242 00:08:50,809 --> 00:08:51,629 are actually 243 00:08:52,009 --> 00:08:52,509 two 244 00:08:53,144 --> 00:08:53,644 different 245 00:08:54,504 --> 00:08:55,004 products 246 00:08:55,544 --> 00:08:57,644 from a monopoly market perspective. 247 00:08:58,264 --> 00:09:00,584 Like, he's talking about the contortions that Apple 248 00:09:00,584 --> 00:09:01,644 has gone through 249 00:09:02,105 --> 00:09:02,605 to 250 00:09:03,065 --> 00:09:06,250 prevent their product from being, from iOS from 251 00:09:06,250 --> 00:09:09,049 being considered a monopoly, or Safari from being 252 00:09:09,049 --> 00:09:10,269 considered a monopoly. 253 00:09:11,850 --> 00:09:12,350 So 254 00:09:12,649 --> 00:09:13,470 I think that's 255 00:09:14,090 --> 00:09:15,470 I think that's an interesting 256 00:09:16,330 --> 00:09:18,269 perspective on it, and I think it actually 257 00:09:18,330 --> 00:09:19,850 comes down to a lot of what we're 258 00:09:19,850 --> 00:09:20,350 seeing, 259 00:09:21,004 --> 00:09:23,085 not just with Apple, but with a lot 260 00:09:23,085 --> 00:09:26,684 of other companies. Right? That this kind of 261 00:09:26,684 --> 00:09:29,825 threatens interoperability and kind of threatens the distributed 262 00:09:29,965 --> 00:09:30,465 nature 263 00:09:30,924 --> 00:09:32,544 of the Internet itself. 264 00:09:35,299 --> 00:09:36,679 The interlocking restrictions 265 00:09:37,379 --> 00:09:40,419 that ensure that the web cannot disrupt native 266 00:09:40,419 --> 00:09:42,199 apps within its user base, 267 00:09:43,459 --> 00:09:47,079 and the ability to control developers such that 268 00:09:47,539 --> 00:09:50,154 I don't know. I think I think it's 269 00:09:50,154 --> 00:09:52,634 personally kind of crazy that I can't buy 270 00:09:52,634 --> 00:09:55,295 things from certain vendors on my phone 271 00:09:57,274 --> 00:09:59,674 because because the Play Store or whatever it 272 00:09:59,674 --> 00:10:01,835 is, Apple Store or Play Store or whatever 273 00:10:01,915 --> 00:10:04,475 whichever one it is, doesn't allow me to 274 00:10:04,475 --> 00:10:06,200 do such a thing. Because 275 00:10:06,899 --> 00:10:08,600 that vendor won't give money, 276 00:10:08,980 --> 00:10:11,399 a percentage of their cut to the store. 277 00:10:12,259 --> 00:10:13,960 I think that seems like 278 00:10:14,820 --> 00:10:16,120 I don't know. Whatever. 279 00:10:16,740 --> 00:10:18,660 Get over yourself. Well, we talked we talked 280 00:10:18,660 --> 00:10:20,355 about this a little bit when we were 281 00:10:20,355 --> 00:10:22,774 prepping for this episode, but, 282 00:10:24,034 --> 00:10:27,334 you know, open standards are great for challengers, 283 00:10:28,274 --> 00:10:32,434 for startups Mhmm. For new companies that want 284 00:10:32,434 --> 00:10:34,134 to build something new and different. 285 00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:39,110 And you will you can see over time 286 00:10:39,110 --> 00:10:39,850 an organization's 287 00:10:40,309 --> 00:10:41,450 take on 288 00:10:41,830 --> 00:10:45,690 open standards, even sometimes open source on information 289 00:10:45,830 --> 00:10:46,330 sharing 290 00:10:46,789 --> 00:10:47,289 evolve 291 00:10:48,389 --> 00:10:49,450 with their business. 292 00:10:50,004 --> 00:10:52,884 In other words, as as comp companies gain 293 00:10:52,884 --> 00:10:53,704 market share 294 00:10:54,404 --> 00:10:56,745 and become a dominant player, 295 00:10:57,365 --> 00:10:59,784 there is less incentive for them to implement 296 00:10:59,845 --> 00:11:00,664 open standards 297 00:11:01,125 --> 00:11:02,664 because in all likelihood, 298 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,399 users are gonna leave them, not come to 299 00:11:06,399 --> 00:11:07,220 them because 300 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,519 of the amount of market share that they've 301 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:10,339 already captured. 302 00:11:10,879 --> 00:11:12,339 And so I think, you know, 303 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,600 this is a pretty common trajectory. It's not 304 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,700 just Apple. I mean and I think, 305 00:11:18,274 --> 00:11:19,475 like, for some of us, like, you can 306 00:11:19,475 --> 00:11:21,235 tell when you entered in the industry as 307 00:11:21,235 --> 00:11:22,455 to which vendor 308 00:11:22,995 --> 00:11:23,495 you 309 00:11:24,595 --> 00:11:25,335 you conceptualize 310 00:11:25,715 --> 00:11:27,875 as being the person that does this. Like, 311 00:11:27,875 --> 00:11:29,014 for me, it's Microsoft 312 00:11:29,555 --> 00:11:31,235 because I was coming of age in the 313 00:11:31,235 --> 00:11:32,115 industry in, 314 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:34,519 in the nineties and, 315 00:11:35,879 --> 00:11:37,959 you know, really first became aware of this 316 00:11:37,959 --> 00:11:40,940 phenomenon then with Microsoft and Exchange and SMTP 317 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,480 and email and how hard it was to 318 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,360 interoperate with their email servers and all that. 319 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:47,259 So for me, 320 00:11:47,574 --> 00:11:50,294 like, it's Microsoft. It's not Apple who's the 321 00:11:50,294 --> 00:11:52,534 primary offender. Yeah. But it's not because Apple 322 00:11:52,534 --> 00:11:54,534 doesn't do it. It's just because that's when 323 00:11:54,534 --> 00:11:55,514 my naivete 324 00:11:55,975 --> 00:11:57,034 about the industry 325 00:11:57,574 --> 00:11:58,074 was 326 00:11:58,695 --> 00:11:59,195 assaulted 327 00:11:59,769 --> 00:12:01,370 by this problem. And a lot of people 328 00:12:01,370 --> 00:12:04,649 will point to, oh, Microsoft rescued Apple, which 329 00:12:04,649 --> 00:12:06,029 they actually did, honestly. 330 00:12:06,409 --> 00:12:08,169 But on the other side, like you're saying, 331 00:12:08,169 --> 00:12:11,309 Yvonne, like, I remember walking into an egghead. 332 00:12:11,850 --> 00:12:14,029 Okay. Let's not even go there. 333 00:12:14,575 --> 00:12:16,434 I assume you know what an egghead is. 334 00:12:16,495 --> 00:12:17,774 Tom, do you know what an egghead is? 335 00:12:17,774 --> 00:12:18,274 Was 336 00:12:19,054 --> 00:12:20,254 it a store? Yeah. It was a store. 337 00:12:20,254 --> 00:12:22,735 Or am I? Yeah. Physical store. Oh. Yeah. 338 00:12:22,735 --> 00:12:24,735 It was it was a physical store. And 339 00:12:24,735 --> 00:12:27,455 I walked into an egghead, and there was 340 00:12:28,529 --> 00:12:29,809 I don't know what version. I think it 341 00:12:29,809 --> 00:12:32,610 was DOS six, Microsoft DOS six. And there 342 00:12:32,610 --> 00:12:33,509 was a big, 343 00:12:35,009 --> 00:12:35,509 pyramid 344 00:12:35,970 --> 00:12:37,750 of Microsoft DOS six, 345 00:12:38,610 --> 00:12:39,970 in the very front of the store. You 346 00:12:39,970 --> 00:12:42,289 had to walk around the pyramid to get 347 00:12:42,289 --> 00:12:43,955 into the store. Right? 348 00:12:44,415 --> 00:12:45,154 And then 349 00:12:46,254 --> 00:12:48,335 way in the back, in a little back 350 00:12:48,335 --> 00:12:50,975 corner, there were half a dozen copies of 351 00:12:50,975 --> 00:12:52,355 digital research DOS. 352 00:12:54,095 --> 00:12:56,115 Yeah. Exactly. And I was like, 353 00:12:57,080 --> 00:12:59,180 yeah. Let me see what's going on here. 354 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,800 I think I think maybe I understand this 355 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,120 one. And it really For sure. It annoyed 356 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,300 me. It really annoyed me. Like, 357 00:13:09,014 --> 00:13:10,954 let them compete on equal ground 358 00:13:11,414 --> 00:13:12,694 and let them do what they need to 359 00:13:12,694 --> 00:13:13,194 do. 360 00:13:14,694 --> 00:13:15,194 Right. 361 00:13:15,735 --> 00:13:17,754 But there's, often their incentives, 362 00:13:18,214 --> 00:13:21,975 outside of standards and interoperability and usefulness, you 363 00:13:21,975 --> 00:13:23,574 know, I think that's kind of the point 364 00:13:23,574 --> 00:13:24,149 of the 365 00:13:24,950 --> 00:13:26,889 one of the points of the article that, 366 00:13:27,110 --> 00:13:29,110 you know, these the bigger company gets, the 367 00:13:29,110 --> 00:13:31,910 more it becomes a solid business decision for 368 00:13:31,910 --> 00:13:32,870 them and a, 369 00:13:33,430 --> 00:13:36,570 a sensible business decision to keep their users, 370 00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:38,090 by force 371 00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:39,210 and, 372 00:13:40,125 --> 00:13:41,404 you know. Yeah. Well, you wanna build a 373 00:13:41,404 --> 00:13:43,725 moat. That's what you wanna do. It's called 374 00:13:43,725 --> 00:13:45,245 a moat. You wanna build a moat. Don't 375 00:13:45,245 --> 00:13:48,065 let anybody into my castle of users. 376 00:13:49,164 --> 00:13:49,404 So 377 00:13:50,365 --> 00:13:52,225 And, you know, and 378 00:13:53,860 --> 00:13:56,659 regardless of how purist we wanna be, we 379 00:13:56,659 --> 00:13:57,879 all wanna have jobs 380 00:13:58,659 --> 00:14:00,039 that where we get paychecks, 381 00:14:00,659 --> 00:14:02,360 where you know? And and 382 00:14:02,980 --> 00:14:04,679 that has to come from somewhere. 383 00:14:05,904 --> 00:14:07,845 Right? And so organizations 384 00:14:08,544 --> 00:14:10,865 need to drive revenue, and we all kinda 385 00:14:10,865 --> 00:14:13,345 have to decide where we wanna be in 386 00:14:13,345 --> 00:14:15,684 that in that process. But it's, 387 00:14:17,184 --> 00:14:19,105 I don't know. It's it's it's hard to 388 00:14:19,105 --> 00:14:20,085 find a, 389 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:25,759 even a neutral position in that conversation if 390 00:14:25,759 --> 00:14:28,399 you're in tech. Right? You're you're gonna have 391 00:14:28,399 --> 00:14:30,579 to, you know, accept certain, 392 00:14:32,159 --> 00:14:33,759 you know, things that even may you know, 393 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:35,174 that that that maybe are 394 00:14:35,654 --> 00:14:37,334 not perfect for you or that you would 395 00:14:37,334 --> 00:14:38,634 love for it to be different. 396 00:14:39,014 --> 00:14:40,855 But we all work in a world where, 397 00:14:40,855 --> 00:14:42,455 you know, we have bills to pay. And 398 00:14:42,455 --> 00:14:44,214 it's not just money, though. That's something I'll 399 00:14:44,214 --> 00:14:45,914 say. It's not just about finances. 400 00:14:46,455 --> 00:14:49,014 It's also about you're an engineer sitting at 401 00:14:49,014 --> 00:14:49,595 a company, 402 00:14:50,769 --> 00:14:53,190 whoever it is. Doesn't matter. Take your pick. 403 00:14:53,490 --> 00:14:54,309 And you say, 404 00:14:54,929 --> 00:14:55,429 alright. 405 00:14:55,809 --> 00:14:56,629 This protocol 406 00:14:57,250 --> 00:14:58,309 is really dumb. 407 00:14:58,769 --> 00:15:01,329 The way this works, whatever it is, it's 408 00:15:01,329 --> 00:15:03,589 dumb. It shouldn't work that way. 409 00:15:04,235 --> 00:15:05,674 What I need to do is I need 410 00:15:05,674 --> 00:15:06,495 to do this. 411 00:15:06,954 --> 00:15:08,654 And so if you're big enough 412 00:15:09,195 --> 00:15:11,774 when you say I needed to do this 413 00:15:11,914 --> 00:15:14,254 and you develop it and you deploy it, 414 00:15:14,554 --> 00:15:16,574 that becomes the de facto standard. 415 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,679 And it doesn't matter whether or not that 416 00:15:19,679 --> 00:15:21,679 was your intent. Your intent was to do 417 00:15:21,679 --> 00:15:22,659 a better thing 418 00:15:23,199 --> 00:15:25,600 and then to make a better mousetrap. And 419 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,240 then the problem becomes your legal department steps 420 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,399 in and says, no. No. You can't open 421 00:15:30,399 --> 00:15:31,139 source that. 422 00:15:32,215 --> 00:15:34,554 That's that's where the real sometimes, 423 00:15:35,014 --> 00:15:38,615 it's not exactly intentional that these moats get 424 00:15:38,615 --> 00:15:39,115 built 425 00:15:39,575 --> 00:15:41,195 in the perspective of finances. 426 00:15:41,894 --> 00:15:43,355 Sometimes they're built because, 427 00:15:44,159 --> 00:15:45,759 you know, some person's sitting in the back 428 00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:47,120 corner and they're like, I can do it 429 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:48,799 better, and they write it. And it gets 430 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:49,299 deployed 431 00:15:49,839 --> 00:15:52,480 across 10,000 machines or a million machines, and 432 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:52,980 then 433 00:15:54,559 --> 00:15:55,860 that's the thing now. 434 00:15:57,294 --> 00:16:00,095 So one thing I'll say is, like, I 435 00:16:00,095 --> 00:16:01,774 fuss about Google on this score, and you 436 00:16:01,774 --> 00:16:03,054 can just, like, you need to put your 437 00:16:03,054 --> 00:16:04,654 ears and your fingers in your ears here, 438 00:16:04,654 --> 00:16:05,615 Yvonne. Anyway 439 00:16:06,174 --> 00:16:08,274 but they did they did at least 440 00:16:09,294 --> 00:16:11,075 do the right thing with quick. 441 00:16:11,909 --> 00:16:14,470 I mean, there were times when everybody was 442 00:16:14,470 --> 00:16:16,470 wondering what was gonna happen with QUIC and 443 00:16:16,629 --> 00:16:18,309 but they've they've done a very good job 444 00:16:18,309 --> 00:16:21,110 with opening QUIC up. And Microsoft has done 445 00:16:21,110 --> 00:16:23,449 a a fairly decent job more recently. 446 00:16:23,750 --> 00:16:26,649 Tom might disagree with me here on Sonic, 447 00:16:27,134 --> 00:16:28,915 building the community around Sonic. 448 00:16:30,014 --> 00:16:31,715 When Sonic first hit the streets, 449 00:16:32,415 --> 00:16:34,095 you couldn't download a copy of it that 450 00:16:34,095 --> 00:16:36,754 would run. There was a GitHub repository, but 451 00:16:37,615 --> 00:16:38,970 what does that even mean? 452 00:16:39,449 --> 00:16:39,949 Like 453 00:16:42,009 --> 00:16:44,409 Yeah. Yeah. No. I I don't disagree. I 454 00:16:44,409 --> 00:16:46,809 think I think Microsoft put in the minimum 455 00:16:46,809 --> 00:16:48,169 required effort and, 456 00:16:48,490 --> 00:16:51,384 that's open source. That's, you know? Right. And 457 00:16:51,384 --> 00:16:52,825 I think you ever You wanna you wanna 458 00:16:52,825 --> 00:16:54,745 polish you wanna polish product, you buy it 459 00:16:54,745 --> 00:16:56,524 from Apple. You don't get enough again. 460 00:16:56,904 --> 00:16:58,044 Right. Exactly. 461 00:16:58,424 --> 00:16:59,164 So yeah. 462 00:16:59,704 --> 00:17:02,264 So I think Well and certain certain companies 463 00:17:02,264 --> 00:17:03,544 have been able to work out a business 464 00:17:03,544 --> 00:17:05,384 model where they can do some of both. 465 00:17:05,384 --> 00:17:06,365 You know, there was, 466 00:17:07,370 --> 00:17:09,769 you know, Red Hat tried to, you know, 467 00:17:09,769 --> 00:17:12,809 worked to create this open source solution, but 468 00:17:12,809 --> 00:17:15,549 then provide support value added components 469 00:17:16,009 --> 00:17:16,509 for 470 00:17:17,130 --> 00:17:19,850 companies that needed that enterprise level. Hey. I 471 00:17:19,850 --> 00:17:21,800 need I need to pick up the phone. 472 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,616 I need to know that somebody's gonna be 473 00:17:24,616 --> 00:17:27,431 there that's gonna be able to fix this. 474 00:17:27,431 --> 00:17:30,598 You know, you think about the whole, Kubernetes 475 00:17:30,598 --> 00:17:33,414 ecosystem and all that's that's that's happened there, 476 00:17:33,414 --> 00:17:34,470 and that's because, 477 00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:35,529 you know, 478 00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:36,890 Google open sourced 479 00:17:37,829 --> 00:17:38,650 that solution. 480 00:17:39,269 --> 00:17:40,730 And and so there are examples 481 00:17:41,269 --> 00:17:42,009 of that. 482 00:17:43,829 --> 00:17:45,210 And and really, 483 00:17:45,509 --> 00:17:47,210 in my mind, it's remarkable 484 00:17:50,664 --> 00:17:52,525 that that approach has been 485 00:17:53,224 --> 00:17:55,164 as effective as it's been. 486 00:17:56,345 --> 00:17:58,525 And it's opened up a whole 487 00:17:59,625 --> 00:18:02,345 world of economic development that we I mean, 488 00:18:02,664 --> 00:18:04,630 it's it is hard to imagine the world 489 00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:06,869 without Linux. Mhmm. Yeah. Right? I I mean, 490 00:18:06,869 --> 00:18:08,950 I can't even conceptualize it. And you think 491 00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:12,089 about all that Linux has enabled, whether it's, 492 00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:12,890 you know, 493 00:18:13,589 --> 00:18:16,070 well, you know, every I I like I 494 00:18:16,070 --> 00:18:18,070 said, I just can't even I can't even 495 00:18:18,070 --> 00:18:19,130 imagine what 496 00:18:19,745 --> 00:18:21,924 our world would be like without it. Yeah. 497 00:18:22,144 --> 00:18:24,965 Yeah. And that's an example of folks 498 00:18:25,345 --> 00:18:27,684 it's where it's not exactly a standard, but 499 00:18:27,985 --> 00:18:30,005 it is an open source solution 500 00:18:30,305 --> 00:18:30,805 that, 501 00:18:31,919 --> 00:18:33,679 folks have coalesced around in a bit. And 502 00:18:33,679 --> 00:18:35,119 and then in the network world, you've got 503 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:36,179 things like NetBox 504 00:18:36,799 --> 00:18:37,240 Yeah. 505 00:18:37,679 --> 00:18:40,419 Which is DNS and bind. There's SMTP. 506 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,819 There are all these things that, 507 00:18:43,599 --> 00:18:45,139 have really been a force multiplier. 508 00:18:47,154 --> 00:18:47,654 And, 509 00:18:49,315 --> 00:18:50,914 it is not an outcome I would have 510 00:18:50,914 --> 00:18:51,414 imagined 511 00:18:51,795 --> 00:18:54,035 if he would have asked me without having 512 00:18:54,035 --> 00:18:56,515 seen it if it were possible. Yeah. And 513 00:18:56,515 --> 00:18:57,734 sometimes that doesn't 514 00:18:58,369 --> 00:19:00,850 lead to riches for the person who developed 515 00:19:00,850 --> 00:19:03,670 it. DNS being a case in point. Like, 516 00:19:03,809 --> 00:19:05,590 nobody got rich off of DNS 517 00:19:06,690 --> 00:19:07,990 in the bind world. 518 00:19:08,769 --> 00:19:11,350 Right? That nobody buy the the 519 00:19:11,674 --> 00:19:14,015 ISC or I see I think it's ISC 520 00:19:14,315 --> 00:19:16,394 got paid on a government contract to do 521 00:19:16,394 --> 00:19:17,994 something, you know, to build this thing, and 522 00:19:17,994 --> 00:19:19,855 they built it and released it open source. 523 00:19:20,154 --> 00:19:22,815 And nobody at ISC has become a millionaire 524 00:19:22,954 --> 00:19:24,414 based on DNS. 525 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:25,940 People at 526 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,279 VeriSign and Akamai who and CloudFlare have done 527 00:19:29,279 --> 00:19:31,759 their own implementations. They've become much wealthier than 528 00:19:31,759 --> 00:19:32,419 the people 529 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:34,960 off of those implementations than the people at 530 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,460 Bind ever did or at ISC ever did. 531 00:19:37,759 --> 00:19:39,934 So that is that is a thing. The 532 00:19:39,934 --> 00:19:42,095 other thing that always strikes me about this 533 00:19:42,095 --> 00:19:44,015 thing this type of thing that Apple does 534 00:19:44,015 --> 00:19:46,734 and other companies do it too, but Apple 535 00:19:46,734 --> 00:19:49,214 is a premier example to me because the 536 00:19:49,214 --> 00:19:50,194 Apple interface 537 00:19:50,894 --> 00:19:54,089 is basically a Xerox Star. And for those 538 00:19:54,149 --> 00:19:56,309 who haven't ever gone back that far and 539 00:19:56,309 --> 00:19:57,829 worked on a Xerox Star, I used to 540 00:19:57,829 --> 00:20:00,490 work on a Xerox Star, and we had, 541 00:20:00,629 --> 00:20:03,289 you know, a thick net network with vampire 542 00:20:03,429 --> 00:20:06,230 taps to to run the Xerox Star and 543 00:20:06,389 --> 00:20:08,664 because they couldn't run it through the 21st 544 00:20:08,664 --> 00:20:10,505 Air Force Building because it's a concrete block 545 00:20:10,505 --> 00:20:12,505 and it's supposed to be bomb proof, they 546 00:20:12,505 --> 00:20:13,724 ran it up the plenums. 547 00:20:14,025 --> 00:20:16,605 And so you had these huge long cables 548 00:20:16,744 --> 00:20:18,205 running up the air returns 549 00:20:18,585 --> 00:20:20,345 up to all the floors with thick net 550 00:20:20,345 --> 00:20:22,585 and all the thin net coming off vampires. 551 00:20:22,585 --> 00:20:26,019 Anyway, that's the Xerox Star is that old, 552 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,900 and the Apple interface still looks 553 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,420 almost identical to me as a Xerox Star. 554 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:34,100 Whereas 555 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,539 as much as people complain about Windows 556 00:20:38,434 --> 00:20:40,115 and how they change the interface all the 557 00:20:40,115 --> 00:20:41,734 time, at least it's changing. 558 00:20:42,595 --> 00:20:43,894 At least they're trying 559 00:20:44,355 --> 00:20:45,255 to do something 560 00:20:46,115 --> 00:20:46,615 different. 561 00:20:47,714 --> 00:20:50,134 Sometimes they fail, sometimes they succeed, 562 00:20:50,835 --> 00:20:53,315 but they're trying to do something different to 563 00:20:53,315 --> 00:20:55,630 me. Whereas Apple is like, 564 00:20:56,009 --> 00:20:58,250 yep. That Xerox Star interface, that was the 565 00:20:58,250 --> 00:20:59,929 most perfect thing that ever came along. We'll 566 00:20:59,929 --> 00:21:02,009 make the corners a little more round, little 567 00:21:02,009 --> 00:21:04,490 bit less round. We'll put shadows this week, 568 00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:06,669 and we'll take the shadows off next week. 569 00:21:10,225 --> 00:21:12,545 Things have changed in the last twenty years, 570 00:21:12,545 --> 00:21:14,485 folks, with user interfaces. 571 00:21:15,184 --> 00:21:17,205 Like, I don't know. It just seems 572 00:21:18,305 --> 00:21:20,384 like that that so to me, part of 573 00:21:20,384 --> 00:21:21,765 this whole game of 574 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,179 this monopolizing thing is it it does block 575 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:27,220 innovation 576 00:21:27,679 --> 00:21:28,659 in some cases. 577 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:30,319 And this is why I think it was 578 00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:32,480 so important that Google dropped Kubernetes in the 579 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:33,299 open source, 580 00:21:34,015 --> 00:21:35,694 because it opened up a lot of innovation 581 00:21:35,694 --> 00:21:36,914 that never would have happened 582 00:21:37,454 --> 00:21:37,954 otherwise. 583 00:21:38,654 --> 00:21:39,954 Right? And Linux. 584 00:21:40,335 --> 00:21:42,494 I mean, how would we have ever gotten 585 00:21:42,494 --> 00:21:44,654 to the Internet that we have today without 586 00:21:44,654 --> 00:21:45,154 Linux? 587 00:21:45,694 --> 00:21:46,914 That's just crazy. 588 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,000 So that's just another aspect that always occurs 589 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:50,580 to me 590 00:21:52,799 --> 00:21:54,900 is the innovation bits as well. 591 00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:58,340 So 592 00:21:59,615 --> 00:22:00,994 anything else there, Yvonne? 593 00:22:03,134 --> 00:22:05,394 No. I think we've covered it. Anything, Tom? 594 00:22:06,894 --> 00:22:09,055 Nope. Sounds good to me. Tom Tom has 595 00:22:09,055 --> 00:22:10,275 the standard plant. 596 00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:13,240 Maybe he 597 00:22:13,556 --> 00:22:14,056 has 598 00:22:14,372 --> 00:22:14,872 the 599 00:22:15,188 --> 00:22:15,688 standard 600 00:22:16,003 --> 00:22:16,503 plant. 601 00:22:16,820 --> 00:22:18,740 It's, got too many leaves now, so the 602 00:22:18,740 --> 00:22:20,259 standard says I'm gonna have to cut some 603 00:22:20,259 --> 00:22:21,080 of them off. 604 00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:25,299 It really does look like it's growing a 605 00:22:25,299 --> 00:22:25,799 sibling. 606 00:22:28,414 --> 00:22:28,914 Alright. 607 00:22:29,375 --> 00:22:31,855 Siamese plants. That's what that's that that's the 608 00:22:31,855 --> 00:22:33,154 name of the plant. Siamese. 609 00:22:33,535 --> 00:22:34,355 There we go. 610 00:22:35,535 --> 00:22:38,275 Alright. So, Tom, say your word. Go ahead. 611 00:22:41,454 --> 00:22:41,954 LinkedIn. 612 00:22:44,569 --> 00:22:46,669 That's where I find him. And Yvonne. 613 00:22:48,809 --> 00:22:49,210 Yeah. 614 00:22:49,609 --> 00:22:51,529 You can find me on LinkedIn at Yvonne 615 00:22:51,529 --> 00:22:54,169 Sharp or, check out the Cloud Gambit with 616 00:22:54,169 --> 00:22:56,089 William Collins, the podcast where we talk about 617 00:22:56,089 --> 00:22:56,750 all things 618 00:22:57,085 --> 00:22:58,845 cloud and AI. And then, 619 00:22:59,965 --> 00:23:02,684 over on Twitter, x at Sharp Network. Cool. 620 00:23:02,684 --> 00:23:03,965 I'm Russ White. You can find me here 621 00:23:03,965 --> 00:23:05,184 at rule eleven dot tech 622 00:23:05,485 --> 00:23:07,725 at the hedge. I almost forgot. I'm like, 623 00:23:07,725 --> 00:23:09,644 I'm my I'm getting so old. I forget 624 00:23:09,644 --> 00:23:10,545 everything now. 625 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:12,799 It's the end of the year. This is 626 00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:15,680 our last episode, Russ. It's you know, you're 627 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,680 gonna take a break and come back completely 628 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,000 fresh for the year. That's the idea, is 629 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:20,500 it? 630 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:23,299 That's what I'm telling myself. 631 00:23:24,595 --> 00:23:26,035 Well, we know we live in an attention 632 00:23:26,035 --> 00:23:28,355 driven economy, and we thank you very much 633 00:23:28,355 --> 00:23:30,035 because of that for listening all the way 634 00:23:30,035 --> 00:23:31,714 to the bitter end of this episode of 635 00:23:31,714 --> 00:23:33,554 The Hedge, and we will catch you next 636 00:23:33,554 --> 00:23:34,054 time.