1 00:00:20,894 --> 00:00:22,355 Well, hello, Yvonne. 2 00:00:23,054 --> 00:00:25,375 Yvonne is not in the she shed. I'm 3 00:00:25,375 --> 00:00:26,914 not sure we can talk to her. 4 00:00:27,550 --> 00:00:29,629 I'm not in the she shed today. For 5 00:00:29,629 --> 00:00:31,969 those wondering what is going on, 6 00:00:32,750 --> 00:00:34,989 my heater is broken out there, and so 7 00:00:34,989 --> 00:00:36,829 we've called somebody to come fix it. But 8 00:00:36,829 --> 00:00:38,429 since it is a shed and not a 9 00:00:38,429 --> 00:00:38,929 house, 10 00:00:39,390 --> 00:00:42,614 we are patiently waiting for our repair person 11 00:00:42,614 --> 00:00:44,934 to fit us into his schedule. So I 12 00:00:44,934 --> 00:00:47,274 am in our library sitting in a recliner. 13 00:00:47,894 --> 00:00:50,475 With a Charlie Brown looking tree behind you. 14 00:00:51,494 --> 00:00:53,835 Yeah. It is a Charlie Brown tree, 15 00:00:54,375 --> 00:00:55,515 which is very true. 16 00:00:56,054 --> 00:00:57,750 There's another bigger tree in this room as 17 00:00:57,750 --> 00:01:00,329 well. But, yeah, it's my Charlie Brown tree. 18 00:01:00,390 --> 00:01:01,449 Okay. Cool. 19 00:01:01,750 --> 00:01:04,310 And Tom has not decorated the plant and 20 00:01:04,310 --> 00:01:05,129 I'm disappointed. 21 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:08,090 I put my Christmas decorations up, Tom. 22 00:01:08,950 --> 00:01:10,629 Mine are just in the other room. And 23 00:01:10,629 --> 00:01:12,229 I'm a little thrown off my game because 24 00:01:12,229 --> 00:01:13,924 in all of the hundreds of episodes we 25 00:01:13,924 --> 00:01:16,084 recorded, this is the very first one in 26 00:01:16,084 --> 00:01:17,944 which you were not like, Tom. 27 00:01:19,844 --> 00:01:21,765 You're just like, what's going on? It's great. 28 00:01:21,765 --> 00:01:25,064 It's fine. But it's, yeah. And the plant. 29 00:01:25,765 --> 00:01:28,424 I think the plant needs some Christmas balls 30 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:30,219 and some, some garland. 31 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:31,740 Well, it's grown. 32 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:34,200 It looks like two, doesn't it? It does 33 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,040 look like two, but it's not. It's one. 34 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:37,959 It's, getting a little out of control. I 35 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,359 think it's, letting the, talk about it going 36 00:01:40,359 --> 00:01:42,200 to its head. It might need a new 37 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:42,555 pot. 38 00:01:43,515 --> 00:01:44,334 Yeah. Maybe. 39 00:01:45,754 --> 00:01:47,754 It, it leaked all over the desk and 40 00:01:47,754 --> 00:01:49,355 got a bunch of papers wet last night. 41 00:01:49,355 --> 00:01:51,674 So it's been a bad bad plant. It's 42 00:01:51,674 --> 00:01:52,795 bad plant. That's, 43 00:01:54,075 --> 00:01:56,655 okay. So today we're gonna start by talking 44 00:01:56,715 --> 00:01:58,530 about or we're gonna talk about 45 00:01:59,090 --> 00:02:01,409 this very interesting article in the Hedgehog Review. 46 00:02:01,409 --> 00:02:02,930 And I don't know if you've ever heard 47 00:02:02,930 --> 00:02:04,950 of the Hedgehog Review, but it's obviously 48 00:02:05,729 --> 00:02:07,030 one of my more favorite 49 00:02:09,569 --> 00:02:10,229 Of course. 50 00:02:11,090 --> 00:02:12,310 Journals or magazines 51 00:02:13,009 --> 00:02:15,194 as the case might be. And it's called 52 00:02:15,194 --> 00:02:16,814 the Amoeba and the Mathematician. 53 00:02:17,514 --> 00:02:19,194 It's by Dworkin, who I think is a 54 00:02:19,194 --> 00:02:19,694 philosopher 55 00:02:20,235 --> 00:02:22,495 person. I'm not I don't remember his whole 56 00:02:22,875 --> 00:02:23,375 he's 57 00:02:23,995 --> 00:02:26,014 a physician and political scientist. 58 00:02:26,395 --> 00:02:27,275 That's a real, 59 00:02:28,250 --> 00:02:30,889 that's a real combination for you there. Quite 60 00:02:30,889 --> 00:02:31,469 a combination 61 00:02:31,770 --> 00:02:32,989 of, interests. 62 00:02:34,250 --> 00:02:34,750 Yeah. 63 00:02:35,289 --> 00:02:35,789 So, 64 00:02:36,569 --> 00:02:38,270 anyway, he's talking about 65 00:02:39,289 --> 00:02:39,789 how 66 00:02:42,674 --> 00:02:45,155 we react to machines. Is that I mean, 67 00:02:45,155 --> 00:02:46,914 maybe I don't know. How would you put 68 00:02:46,914 --> 00:02:47,574 it, Yvonne? 69 00:02:49,155 --> 00:02:50,995 Well, I think part of what he's talking 70 00:02:50,995 --> 00:02:53,174 here is about how we have defined 71 00:02:54,330 --> 00:02:54,830 expertise 72 00:02:55,610 --> 00:02:56,830 and being the best 73 00:02:57,209 --> 00:02:58,590 with becoming more 74 00:02:58,889 --> 00:03:00,909 computer like, with being 75 00:03:01,289 --> 00:03:03,949 behaving more like a machine or an algorithm. 76 00:03:04,569 --> 00:03:06,509 Yeah. And now that we have 77 00:03:07,034 --> 00:03:09,594 and we've developed machines and algorithms that are 78 00:03:09,754 --> 00:03:11,935 do many, many, many things better than us, 79 00:03:12,234 --> 00:03:13,834 that we might need to rephrase that a 80 00:03:13,834 --> 00:03:16,334 bit. Yeah. I would actually say that's 81 00:03:16,715 --> 00:03:18,794 always been true about the machines being better 82 00:03:18,794 --> 00:03:20,334 than us. For instance, 83 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:22,900 there have been a lot of discussions about 84 00:03:23,439 --> 00:03:26,479 why the American military succeeds in places where 85 00:03:26,479 --> 00:03:29,039 other militaries don't. And part of the reason 86 00:03:29,039 --> 00:03:30,419 given is because 87 00:03:31,439 --> 00:03:33,840 the American the average American military member is 88 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,465 unafraid to disobey orders and do what needs 89 00:03:37,185 --> 00:03:38,705 to be done to get the job done. 90 00:03:38,705 --> 00:03:40,164 They just go do it. 91 00:03:40,625 --> 00:03:41,125 And 92 00:03:41,584 --> 00:03:43,525 there's a very machine like 93 00:03:44,064 --> 00:03:46,224 atmosphere in the military, if you've ever been 94 00:03:46,224 --> 00:03:46,965 in the military, 95 00:03:47,504 --> 00:03:49,764 that you almost have to defy. 96 00:03:50,340 --> 00:03:53,139 And that's been a very strong component of 97 00:03:53,139 --> 00:03:53,879 our culture 98 00:03:54,420 --> 00:03:56,260 here, at least in America, for many, many, 99 00:03:56,260 --> 00:03:58,900 many, many, many years, is that we're not 100 00:03:58,900 --> 00:03:59,400 machines. 101 00:04:00,260 --> 00:04:02,760 Like, that's not what we do. We're actually 102 00:04:03,635 --> 00:04:05,014 not in that category. 103 00:04:05,555 --> 00:04:07,794 And I think that between, like you said, 104 00:04:07,794 --> 00:04:10,594 Yvonne, like the idea that machines are taking 105 00:04:10,594 --> 00:04:12,854 over more and they're more effective than us 106 00:04:12,995 --> 00:04:14,055 at certain things 107 00:04:14,915 --> 00:04:17,235 makes us want to trust the machine more 108 00:04:17,235 --> 00:04:18,134 than the person. 109 00:04:18,850 --> 00:04:20,870 Because the machine is right more often. 110 00:04:22,449 --> 00:04:23,810 Well, I think one of the things that 111 00:04:23,810 --> 00:04:25,350 I've heard a lot about lately 112 00:04:26,529 --> 00:04:28,529 and and we don't have a word for 113 00:04:28,529 --> 00:04:29,990 it other than taste. 114 00:04:30,529 --> 00:04:32,790 When we talk about things like 115 00:04:33,415 --> 00:04:36,314 either user interface design, you look at 116 00:04:37,495 --> 00:04:37,995 software 117 00:04:38,535 --> 00:04:41,095 well, that software hardware combo that Apple, you 118 00:04:41,095 --> 00:04:43,834 know, when they first created the iPhone or 119 00:04:43,895 --> 00:04:46,149 the early days back when, you know, Steve 120 00:04:46,149 --> 00:04:48,310 Jobs was still around and in control. We 121 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:50,169 we have this concept of 122 00:04:51,110 --> 00:04:53,610 taste, of design, of intuition 123 00:04:54,470 --> 00:04:56,729 that we've never been able to, like, fully 124 00:04:57,509 --> 00:04:58,810 define or explain 125 00:05:00,205 --> 00:05:03,085 that really taps into what it is to 126 00:05:03,085 --> 00:05:03,824 be human. 127 00:05:04,845 --> 00:05:06,365 But I think for a lot of us 128 00:05:06,365 --> 00:05:07,585 engineering types, 129 00:05:08,285 --> 00:05:10,705 talking that way makes us kind of uncomfortable 130 00:05:12,100 --> 00:05:14,420 because there's a component but because we can't 131 00:05:14,420 --> 00:05:16,180 define it, because we can't put it in 132 00:05:16,180 --> 00:05:18,040 a rubric, because we can't, 133 00:05:18,340 --> 00:05:21,939 you know, develop a very specific metric to 134 00:05:21,939 --> 00:05:25,300 measure it. Yeah. It's aesthetics, essentially, is what 135 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:26,279 it is, is aesthetics. 136 00:05:26,854 --> 00:05:29,035 And we don't study it, and we don't 137 00:05:29,334 --> 00:05:32,154 want to study it by and large because 138 00:05:32,935 --> 00:05:34,394 it does. It makes us uncomfortable. 139 00:05:36,294 --> 00:05:38,235 I I yeah. I get that. 140 00:05:39,654 --> 00:05:41,754 One of my PhD seminars was aesthetics. 141 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:43,500 I spent, like, we've 142 00:05:43,959 --> 00:05:46,360 read, like, 20 books on aesthetics and tried 143 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,839 to understand what this is all about and 144 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:50,939 tried to understand the concept of beauty. 145 00:05:51,479 --> 00:05:52,919 And I think there's a lot more to 146 00:05:52,919 --> 00:05:53,899 it than just, 147 00:05:55,879 --> 00:05:57,560 I think I think it's a very real 148 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:58,060 thing. 149 00:05:58,574 --> 00:05:59,314 I don't know. 150 00:05:59,694 --> 00:06:01,154 Have you have you ever read 151 00:06:01,535 --> 00:06:03,634 CS Lewis, The Abolition of Man? 152 00:06:05,774 --> 00:06:07,454 No, neither of you. It's very I've heard 153 00:06:07,454 --> 00:06:10,334 of it. Okay. Yeah. It's an interesting argument 154 00:06:10,334 --> 00:06:11,875 where he's talking about how 155 00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:14,959 when you replace the concept of, 156 00:06:15,980 --> 00:06:16,480 sublime 157 00:06:17,180 --> 00:06:18,160 and you say 158 00:06:18,540 --> 00:06:20,160 this is sublime objectively 159 00:06:20,540 --> 00:06:22,699 versus this is sublime because it makes me 160 00:06:22,699 --> 00:06:23,759 feel that way, 161 00:06:24,220 --> 00:06:26,399 you actually lose something of the humanness 162 00:06:27,545 --> 00:06:29,785 and and something of the the ethical and 163 00:06:29,785 --> 00:06:31,964 moral qualities of that. And 164 00:06:32,345 --> 00:06:34,185 I think that's partially what we're seeing in 165 00:06:34,185 --> 00:06:36,045 the computer world is that 166 00:06:36,584 --> 00:06:39,305 we want to quantify the user interface to 167 00:06:39,305 --> 00:06:40,045 make it, 168 00:06:41,545 --> 00:06:43,930 you know, we wanna, is it more efficient? 169 00:06:43,930 --> 00:06:44,589 Does it 170 00:06:45,129 --> 00:06:48,089 produce more clicks? Does it produce more follow 171 00:06:48,089 --> 00:06:48,589 through? 172 00:06:49,689 --> 00:06:50,189 But 173 00:06:50,490 --> 00:06:51,949 or does it make it faster? 174 00:06:52,889 --> 00:06:54,490 But, really, there's a lot more to it 175 00:06:54,490 --> 00:06:55,230 than that. 176 00:06:56,404 --> 00:06:58,404 And and in this way, we're becoming more 177 00:06:58,404 --> 00:06:59,305 machine like. 178 00:07:02,324 --> 00:07:04,404 So I don't know. Tom, any thoughts? You 179 00:07:04,404 --> 00:07:06,264 you you're kinda quiet over there 180 00:07:06,564 --> 00:07:08,100 in the corner with your plant. 181 00:07:10,100 --> 00:07:12,259 Well, plants are quiet. Maybe I'm taking cues 182 00:07:12,259 --> 00:07:13,080 from my plant. 183 00:07:14,819 --> 00:07:15,220 I, 184 00:07:15,860 --> 00:07:17,300 I thought that was interesting what you said 185 00:07:17,300 --> 00:07:19,300 because in some way machines have always been 186 00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:20,819 better than us. That's why we have them. 187 00:07:20,819 --> 00:07:23,115 That's why we, you know, we, they would 188 00:07:23,115 --> 00:07:24,954 not exist if that wasn't the case. And 189 00:07:24,954 --> 00:07:26,235 so I think, 190 00:07:28,074 --> 00:07:30,154 I think that the expertise is in employing 191 00:07:30,154 --> 00:07:30,814 the machine. 192 00:07:31,595 --> 00:07:33,435 And, and I'm sure this conversation has been 193 00:07:33,435 --> 00:07:34,975 had many times before, but, 194 00:07:35,754 --> 00:07:36,254 the, 195 00:07:37,379 --> 00:07:39,639 I almost think the aesthetics of it are, 196 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:41,639 how to employ the machine. 197 00:07:42,180 --> 00:07:43,540 It's not whether or not there is a 198 00:07:43,540 --> 00:07:44,980 machine or whether or not the machine is 199 00:07:44,980 --> 00:07:46,580 gonna do x y and z functions because 200 00:07:46,580 --> 00:07:48,819 it will. It's, you know, how and where 201 00:07:48,819 --> 00:07:50,360 to employ it that is the 202 00:07:50,665 --> 00:07:52,285 the thing that the human is, 203 00:07:52,824 --> 00:07:55,064 suited to. Yeah. I think there's a couple 204 00:07:55,064 --> 00:07:57,305 of aspects to that. The first is, what 205 00:07:57,305 --> 00:07:59,305 is the machine meant to do versus what 206 00:07:59,305 --> 00:08:00,365 we use it for? 207 00:08:00,904 --> 00:08:02,925 I always say that once you make the 208 00:08:02,985 --> 00:08:05,579 once you make the big beautiful hammer, you 209 00:08:05,579 --> 00:08:07,740 can't stop people from using it to drive 210 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:10,699 nails or to close doors or right? I 211 00:08:10,699 --> 00:08:12,220 mean, the hammer is designed to do a 212 00:08:12,220 --> 00:08:14,860 certain thing. The other thing is that we 213 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:16,459 don't think about a lot of times is 214 00:08:16,459 --> 00:08:17,279 that the hammer 215 00:08:17,660 --> 00:08:19,199 actually changed construction. 216 00:08:20,774 --> 00:08:22,694 Like, we used to build houses and buildings 217 00:08:22,694 --> 00:08:23,975 one way, and now we build them a 218 00:08:23,975 --> 00:08:24,714 different way 219 00:08:25,254 --> 00:08:27,035 because of the hammer. 220 00:08:27,735 --> 00:08:29,254 And, like, so this Well, I think I've 221 00:08:29,254 --> 00:08:31,095 I've mentioned it here before, but there's the 222 00:08:31,095 --> 00:08:33,254 great Churchill quote that first we make our 223 00:08:33,254 --> 00:08:35,759 buildings and then our buildings make us. Right? 224 00:08:36,059 --> 00:08:37,519 We we form these things 225 00:08:38,220 --> 00:08:39,679 that have a purpose. 226 00:08:40,059 --> 00:08:42,559 And then those things, whether it's 227 00:08:43,179 --> 00:08:45,279 architecture, you think about, like, 228 00:08:45,659 --> 00:08:46,159 The 229 00:08:46,539 --> 00:08:49,259 United States interstate highway system, or you think 230 00:08:49,259 --> 00:08:50,625 about cities that have 231 00:08:51,024 --> 00:08:52,164 mass transit 232 00:08:52,465 --> 00:08:53,924 networks and how 233 00:08:54,625 --> 00:08:57,424 we build these things, but then those things 234 00:08:57,424 --> 00:09:00,065 that we build shape who we become in 235 00:09:00,065 --> 00:09:01,684 the future, both as individuals, 236 00:09:02,304 --> 00:09:03,764 culturally, how we interact, 237 00:09:04,465 --> 00:09:06,529 all of those things. And it's a 238 00:09:06,910 --> 00:09:08,690 it's a very symbiotic 239 00:09:09,629 --> 00:09:10,929 Yeah. Existence 240 00:09:11,309 --> 00:09:13,570 that that we have even with our own 241 00:09:13,950 --> 00:09:14,450 creations. 242 00:09:15,149 --> 00:09:17,570 Yep. And and sometimes we unleash a thing 243 00:09:18,115 --> 00:09:20,835 that that we did not anticipate in that 244 00:09:20,835 --> 00:09:21,335 creation. 245 00:09:21,715 --> 00:09:23,795 Yeah. And so, like, what he's talking about 246 00:09:23,795 --> 00:09:25,634 in this article is interesting is about poker 247 00:09:25,634 --> 00:09:26,134 players. 248 00:09:26,514 --> 00:09:27,254 And, basically, 249 00:09:28,035 --> 00:09:30,195 there are, he says, three different kinds of 250 00:09:30,195 --> 00:09:33,495 poker players. There's the recreational player, doesn't care 251 00:09:33,899 --> 00:09:36,319 about complex play, doesn't even think about winning. 252 00:09:36,539 --> 00:09:37,919 They just want to enjoy 253 00:09:38,459 --> 00:09:41,360 the pleasure of the game, the social aspects, 254 00:09:41,500 --> 00:09:42,799 the the physical, 255 00:09:43,339 --> 00:09:45,679 like, I feel the cards in my hand. 256 00:09:45,980 --> 00:09:48,335 You know, it's something to do. It occupies 257 00:09:48,335 --> 00:09:48,995 my mind 258 00:09:49,375 --> 00:09:50,195 kind of a thing. 259 00:09:50,575 --> 00:09:51,235 And then 260 00:09:51,695 --> 00:09:52,595 there is 261 00:09:53,534 --> 00:09:54,514 what are, like, 262 00:09:54,975 --> 00:09:55,955 what he calls 263 00:09:56,735 --> 00:09:58,914 GTO or elite players, 264 00:09:59,934 --> 00:10:01,934 who are players who make the most who 265 00:10:01,934 --> 00:10:02,789 make money. That's 266 00:10:04,549 --> 00:10:06,389 That's what they do. And they guide their 267 00:10:06,389 --> 00:10:09,629 play independent of the cards on the table 268 00:10:09,669 --> 00:10:12,089 or even the tells. People go, oh, you 269 00:10:12,230 --> 00:10:13,669 know, you have a tell. I can tell 270 00:10:13,669 --> 00:10:15,350 that you're lying about what's in your deck. 271 00:10:15,350 --> 00:10:17,865 And he's like, no. They they play based 272 00:10:17,865 --> 00:10:19,485 on gay game theory 273 00:10:19,865 --> 00:10:21,884 optimization or game theory optimal, 274 00:10:22,585 --> 00:10:23,884 which is based on mathematics. 275 00:10:24,504 --> 00:10:26,825 And so to be a more efficient poker 276 00:10:26,825 --> 00:10:28,985 player, you have to become more like a 277 00:10:28,985 --> 00:10:29,485 machine 278 00:10:30,740 --> 00:10:31,639 than the recreational 279 00:10:32,019 --> 00:10:33,379 player. And I think that's kind of the 280 00:10:33,379 --> 00:10:35,779 point he's making is that if you want 281 00:10:35,779 --> 00:10:38,419 to be, you know, a good poker player, 282 00:10:38,419 --> 00:10:39,480 you need to become 283 00:10:40,659 --> 00:10:41,879 more of a machine, 284 00:10:42,259 --> 00:10:44,279 more of a computer that plays poker 285 00:10:44,884 --> 00:10:47,365 than a human who enjoys it. I I 286 00:10:47,365 --> 00:10:49,605 liked the, the so the third type that 287 00:10:49,605 --> 00:10:51,544 he talked about was in between those two, 288 00:10:51,605 --> 00:10:54,085 the the business minded player. Right? Yeah. The 289 00:10:54,085 --> 00:10:56,745 person who's not super interested in, like, 290 00:10:57,940 --> 00:10:59,620 cutting edge of the game or anything but 291 00:10:59,620 --> 00:11:01,220 their boss but also they're not just there 292 00:11:01,220 --> 00:11:02,279 to have a good time. 293 00:11:02,980 --> 00:11:05,379 You know, he talks about how this person 294 00:11:05,379 --> 00:11:07,539 is the one in the middle. That's the 295 00:11:07,539 --> 00:11:09,460 one that makes money. The elite poker players 296 00:11:09,460 --> 00:11:10,980 don't make money. That's not what they're trying 297 00:11:10,980 --> 00:11:11,559 to do, 298 00:11:11,884 --> 00:11:13,264 which I thought was really interesting. 299 00:11:14,125 --> 00:11:15,884 But but the guy in or the person 300 00:11:15,884 --> 00:11:18,225 in the middle is the one who's who 301 00:11:18,684 --> 00:11:19,904 is playing intentionally 302 00:11:20,445 --> 00:11:23,164 playing terrible terrible opponents so that he can 303 00:11:23,164 --> 00:11:25,245 maximize how much how much money he makes 304 00:11:25,245 --> 00:11:27,379 and is doing things that's just like, yeah 305 00:11:27,379 --> 00:11:28,980 if you're trying to prove that you're the 306 00:11:28,980 --> 00:11:31,220 best then you wouldn't play terrible people, you'd 307 00:11:31,220 --> 00:11:33,299 play really good people. Like that's what you're 308 00:11:33,299 --> 00:11:35,059 trying to do. But the person in the 309 00:11:35,059 --> 00:11:37,059 middle is trying to make money and so 310 00:11:37,059 --> 00:11:38,500 the way he does that is by playing 311 00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:40,965 terrible opponents. Like it's very interesting. 312 00:11:41,345 --> 00:11:43,445 The idea of being the best 313 00:11:44,384 --> 00:11:46,705 as the you know elsewhere in the article 314 00:11:46,705 --> 00:11:49,184 he talks about confusing expertise with being the 315 00:11:49,184 --> 00:11:51,024 best. And I thought that was a really 316 00:11:51,024 --> 00:11:52,004 interesting distinction. 317 00:11:52,449 --> 00:11:54,610 And in in the machine realm, you know, 318 00:11:54,610 --> 00:11:56,850 the machines are the best, because, you know, 319 00:11:56,850 --> 00:11:59,169 mechanically or whatever, they're they're the standard for 320 00:11:59,169 --> 00:12:00,149 what can be done. 321 00:12:01,490 --> 00:12:03,589 But it's not just be the dumb meatbag 322 00:12:03,649 --> 00:12:06,049 human or be the machine that's perfect at 323 00:12:06,049 --> 00:12:08,264 everything. It's the it being in the middle, 324 00:12:08,264 --> 00:12:10,424 you know, the the one who who has 325 00:12:10,424 --> 00:12:12,904 the business minded player he calls it. And 326 00:12:12,904 --> 00:12:15,144 I think that's a pretty interesting analogy for 327 00:12:15,144 --> 00:12:16,904 the way that we in our in our 328 00:12:16,904 --> 00:12:17,225 work, 329 00:12:18,345 --> 00:12:19,164 use technology. 330 00:12:19,519 --> 00:12:21,120 Cause we shouldn't be trying to be the 331 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,600 machine cause we're not. We'll never go fast 332 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:24,100 enough 333 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:26,179 or precise enough. But, 334 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,600 what's the business optimized? What's the business minded 335 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,059 network engineer look like? 336 00:12:32,654 --> 00:12:33,375 Which which, 337 00:12:33,934 --> 00:12:36,674 what kind of network person or technology person 338 00:12:36,975 --> 00:12:38,514 has figured out how to make money? 339 00:12:39,535 --> 00:12:40,195 You know, 340 00:12:40,735 --> 00:12:42,335 I'm I'm putting quotes around that because we're 341 00:12:42,335 --> 00:12:44,254 a cost center usually, but, like, has figured 342 00:12:44,254 --> 00:12:45,695 out how to make money by trying to 343 00:12:45,695 --> 00:12:47,139 emulate the machine but not going all the 344 00:12:47,139 --> 00:12:47,639 way. 345 00:12:48,179 --> 00:12:51,139 Yeah. My my other observation of those three 346 00:12:51,139 --> 00:12:51,639 categories 347 00:12:52,579 --> 00:12:54,679 is that we have one we prefer, 348 00:12:55,379 --> 00:12:57,720 and we we make value judgments 349 00:13:00,034 --> 00:13:03,014 about how folks sort themselves into these categories. 350 00:13:03,235 --> 00:13:05,634 In other words, you know, the recreational player 351 00:13:05,634 --> 00:13:08,054 is just wasting everybody's time and, 352 00:13:08,514 --> 00:13:10,595 but but but they're doing it for the 353 00:13:10,595 --> 00:13:12,840 joy of it. And then you've got the 354 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,000 business player and everybody's like, well, they're cutthroat 355 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,399 or they're, you know or then you've got 356 00:13:17,399 --> 00:13:17,879 the, 357 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:21,100 what I will call the borderline rule breaker 358 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:22,220 player who's 359 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,855 pushing the game to its limits. And 360 00:13:25,495 --> 00:13:27,894 depending on where we see ourselves and what 361 00:13:27,894 --> 00:13:31,014 we deeply care about, we we make value 362 00:13:31,014 --> 00:13:33,434 judgments about each of those different categories. 363 00:13:34,375 --> 00:13:36,454 And and we do that in our work 364 00:13:36,454 --> 00:13:37,195 as well. 365 00:13:37,654 --> 00:13:39,894 We we just don't often articulate it in 366 00:13:39,894 --> 00:13:41,159 our minds so clearly. 367 00:13:41,460 --> 00:13:43,559 Yeah. The different categories are what we're doing. 368 00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:45,379 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The other 369 00:13:45,379 --> 00:13:47,139 interesting thing too is what he calls this 370 00:13:47,139 --> 00:13:48,899 wise player, which you were talking about there, 371 00:13:48,899 --> 00:13:49,399 Tom, 372 00:13:49,779 --> 00:13:52,419 is somebody who blends their knowledge of the 373 00:13:52,419 --> 00:13:52,919 game, 374 00:13:53,815 --> 00:13:55,495 which is not as good as the as 375 00:13:55,495 --> 00:13:56,795 the elite player is, 376 00:13:57,735 --> 00:14:00,774 with their understanding of the humans they are 377 00:14:00,774 --> 00:14:01,754 competing against. 378 00:14:03,335 --> 00:14:05,335 So there's a soft skill or what Mike 379 00:14:05,335 --> 00:14:07,274 Bouchon would call super a superpower 380 00:14:08,190 --> 00:14:08,690 versus 381 00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:09,610 versus 382 00:14:10,029 --> 00:14:10,529 the 383 00:14:10,990 --> 00:14:12,850 strictly technical skill 384 00:14:13,230 --> 00:14:14,129 that's combined 385 00:14:14,669 --> 00:14:17,330 in that person and being able to see 386 00:14:18,269 --> 00:14:19,490 both sides of this 387 00:14:20,414 --> 00:14:23,075 and use those things. And I think 388 00:14:23,455 --> 00:14:25,714 this is one of the differences between sales, 389 00:14:25,774 --> 00:14:26,754 per for instance, 390 00:14:27,214 --> 00:14:29,235 and being a full time coder. 391 00:14:29,855 --> 00:14:30,355 Right? 392 00:14:30,975 --> 00:14:32,975 Although full time coders, we think of as 393 00:14:32,975 --> 00:14:34,815 being, oh, they're back end. They don't ever 394 00:14:34,815 --> 00:14:36,580 deal with humans. No. Go back to the 395 00:14:36,580 --> 00:14:37,480 UI example. 396 00:14:38,179 --> 00:14:41,300 Right? Mhmm. How how many times have you 397 00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:42,440 encountered a UI 398 00:14:43,059 --> 00:14:43,879 and it makes 399 00:14:44,259 --> 00:14:46,259 zero sense to you? You're sitting there looking 400 00:14:46,259 --> 00:14:47,080 at it going, 401 00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:49,800 what was someone thinking 402 00:14:50,625 --> 00:14:52,884 when they built this? Right? 403 00:14:53,345 --> 00:14:55,504 The classic example when I always think about 404 00:14:55,504 --> 00:14:57,825 this is in Cisco IOS. It used to 405 00:14:57,825 --> 00:14:58,325 be 406 00:14:59,024 --> 00:14:59,845 IP fast 407 00:15:00,865 --> 00:15:01,585 to get, 408 00:15:01,904 --> 00:15:04,004 Fast Cache on, and then, 409 00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:07,049 or maybe it was Fast IP and then 410 00:15:07,049 --> 00:15:07,549 IPCEF. 411 00:15:08,009 --> 00:15:09,769 So they were backwards from each other. In 412 00:15:09,769 --> 00:15:12,089 one case, IP was the noun. In the 413 00:15:12,089 --> 00:15:14,089 second case, it was the object or the 414 00:15:14,089 --> 00:15:15,769 verb. In the second case, it was the 415 00:15:15,769 --> 00:15:17,975 object, subject or object or whatever. And I'm 416 00:15:17,975 --> 00:15:20,475 like, that never made any sense to me. 417 00:15:20,774 --> 00:15:22,534 But then if you go look at the 418 00:15:22,534 --> 00:15:23,514 data structures 419 00:15:24,455 --> 00:15:25,434 behind it, 420 00:15:25,815 --> 00:15:26,875 those are directly 421 00:15:27,575 --> 00:15:28,075 exposing 422 00:15:28,934 --> 00:15:30,929 the way the data structure is 423 00:15:31,889 --> 00:15:33,809 built. And the UI is built around the 424 00:15:33,809 --> 00:15:35,509 way the data structure works. 425 00:15:36,529 --> 00:15:38,710 Not As opposed to how the user experiences 426 00:15:39,009 --> 00:15:39,509 it. 427 00:15:39,889 --> 00:15:40,389 Exactly. 428 00:15:40,850 --> 00:15:42,769 And so we don't think about this, but 429 00:15:42,769 --> 00:15:43,269 that's 430 00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:46,195 the elite player. I'm gonna make the I'm 431 00:15:46,195 --> 00:15:47,735 gonna make that user interface 432 00:15:48,115 --> 00:15:48,695 match my 433 00:15:49,154 --> 00:15:51,235 match my database or my the way the 434 00:15:51,235 --> 00:15:52,455 application works. 435 00:15:54,915 --> 00:15:57,235 So there's a there's a paragraph in this 436 00:15:57,235 --> 00:15:59,475 article I wanna read. It's actually right before 437 00:15:59,475 --> 00:16:02,190 the the the poker discussion starts, but it 438 00:16:02,409 --> 00:16:04,029 helps kinda frame up 439 00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:07,309 the amoeba and the mathematician. And it says, 440 00:16:07,370 --> 00:16:10,089 take a continuum that has an amoeba at 441 00:16:10,089 --> 00:16:12,589 one end and a mathematician at the other. 442 00:16:12,845 --> 00:16:15,485 The amoeba has the most interest in its 443 00:16:15,485 --> 00:16:16,465 immediate environment. 444 00:16:16,924 --> 00:16:19,485 It reacts strongly and quickly to the smallest 445 00:16:19,485 --> 00:16:19,985 stimulus. 446 00:16:20,524 --> 00:16:21,345 The mathematician 447 00:16:21,725 --> 00:16:24,465 has the least interest in his immediate environment. 448 00:16:24,845 --> 00:16:27,019 He's detached from temporal considerations 449 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,899 and lives in an insular world of numbers. 450 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:32,620 Somewhere between the amoeba and the mathematician 451 00:16:33,879 --> 00:16:37,000 sits the competitive worker of the future, the 452 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,240 worker who reacts to a stimulus as an 453 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,345 amoeba does, although with more thought, but not 454 00:16:42,345 --> 00:16:44,664 with so much depth of thought that he 455 00:16:44,664 --> 00:16:47,865 or she ignores the stimulus altogether. And so 456 00:16:47,865 --> 00:16:49,464 that's kind of the description of what he's 457 00:16:49,464 --> 00:16:51,144 talking about. Hey. You gotta be aware of 458 00:16:51,144 --> 00:16:52,904 your environment. You gotta send out your little 459 00:16:52,904 --> 00:16:54,745 feelers and see what's going on and respond 460 00:16:54,745 --> 00:16:55,884 and react and understand. 461 00:16:56,220 --> 00:16:57,899 And then you gotta have enough depth of 462 00:16:57,899 --> 00:16:58,879 knowledge about 463 00:16:59,899 --> 00:17:01,980 the the arena so that you can make 464 00:17:01,980 --> 00:17:03,360 good decisions, but you've gotta 465 00:17:03,740 --> 00:17:04,960 combine the stimulus 466 00:17:05,740 --> 00:17:08,700 with the data and your understanding of the 467 00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:09,759 working space. 468 00:17:10,634 --> 00:17:12,154 And and he says that's gonna be the 469 00:17:12,154 --> 00:17:13,914 sweet spot of the future. Not the person 470 00:17:13,914 --> 00:17:14,575 who can 471 00:17:15,035 --> 00:17:17,134 deeply execute on a technical level 472 00:17:17,434 --> 00:17:19,515 because our machines are gonna do that for 473 00:17:19,515 --> 00:17:22,315 us. But it's that combining the stimulus with 474 00:17:22,315 --> 00:17:23,215 all of that 475 00:17:24,154 --> 00:17:24,654 to 476 00:17:25,369 --> 00:17:27,450 to provide meaning and value and and all 477 00:17:27,450 --> 00:17:29,609 that. Yeah. And I think there's a warning 478 00:17:29,609 --> 00:17:30,670 here as well. 479 00:17:31,049 --> 00:17:33,049 Don't try to beat the machine. Don't try 480 00:17:33,049 --> 00:17:35,609 to become the machine. Don't shape yourself to 481 00:17:35,609 --> 00:17:36,269 the machine. 482 00:17:36,650 --> 00:17:39,315 Right? Yes. You have a hammer. Great. You 483 00:17:39,315 --> 00:17:41,255 can build a house in a certain way. 484 00:17:41,875 --> 00:17:42,375 But 485 00:17:42,835 --> 00:17:44,694 don't lose your creativity 486 00:17:44,994 --> 00:17:47,015 and your ability to talk to the customer 487 00:17:47,154 --> 00:17:49,474 and your ability to understand the structure and 488 00:17:49,474 --> 00:17:50,134 the layout 489 00:17:50,595 --> 00:17:52,914 and the traffic flow in a house and 490 00:17:52,914 --> 00:17:55,440 stuff like that. Like, there's more to this. 491 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,920 Same thing with the network. Right? Don't just 492 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,240 become the machine who builds the most efficient 493 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,140 network possible. 494 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,099 There are users attached to that network. 495 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,240 Right? Or the most efficient application possible. There 496 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:09,460 are people in there. 497 00:18:10,424 --> 00:18:12,204 Russ, I have a question for you. So 498 00:18:12,345 --> 00:18:14,505 when I hear the the amoeba amoeba and 499 00:18:14,505 --> 00:18:15,085 the mathematician, 500 00:18:15,384 --> 00:18:17,944 in my experience, I I'm seeing faces of 501 00:18:17,944 --> 00:18:19,224 people that I've worked with. Mhmm. 502 00:18:19,865 --> 00:18:21,865 In the IETF, do you feel like you 503 00:18:21,865 --> 00:18:24,125 see both of those manifest as human personalities? 504 00:18:24,799 --> 00:18:26,720 Sure. Do you see I see insular and 505 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,640 I think IETF, but then I but then 506 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:29,859 I see, like, 507 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,000 reacting to the environment and I think like 508 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,099 an operator, like somebody who's living in it, 509 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:35,679 you know, maybe some of those are in 510 00:18:35,679 --> 00:18:36,339 the IETF. 511 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,795 Do you see those? Yeah. So I think 512 00:18:38,795 --> 00:18:39,615 in Nanog, 513 00:18:40,234 --> 00:18:42,714 for instance, in network operators groups, you'll see 514 00:18:42,714 --> 00:18:45,355 more amoebas than you do mathematicians. I think 515 00:18:45,355 --> 00:18:46,575 that's absolutely true. 516 00:18:46,954 --> 00:18:49,595 Although, maybe there are mathematicians in a different 517 00:18:49,595 --> 00:18:51,934 way in the sense that they are conforming 518 00:18:52,075 --> 00:18:54,390 themselves to the machine of the global network 519 00:18:54,690 --> 00:18:57,329 or the network. They're not you know, they're 520 00:18:57,329 --> 00:18:59,730 all about, can I configure quickly? Can I 521 00:18:59,730 --> 00:19:02,690 trouble you know, CCA the old CCA was 522 00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:03,509 about troubleshooting? 523 00:19:03,970 --> 00:19:05,490 I get the impression from a lot of 524 00:19:05,490 --> 00:19:07,589 people now that a lot of these certifications 525 00:19:07,809 --> 00:19:10,345 are about memorization and knowing the right things 526 00:19:10,345 --> 00:19:11,085 to regurgitate 527 00:19:11,544 --> 00:19:13,944 and stuff. That feels like a movement from 528 00:19:13,944 --> 00:19:15,565 the amoeba to the machine 529 00:19:16,265 --> 00:19:18,664 in that realm. And the same things can 530 00:19:18,664 --> 00:19:20,284 be true like in Nanog. In the ITF, 531 00:19:20,505 --> 00:19:21,804 yeah, they're actually both. 532 00:19:22,105 --> 00:19:23,964 There are people who are 533 00:19:24,349 --> 00:19:25,570 much more concerned 534 00:19:26,269 --> 00:19:26,769 about 535 00:19:27,309 --> 00:19:27,809 people 536 00:19:28,349 --> 00:19:30,049 and getting work done 537 00:19:30,590 --> 00:19:31,410 and just 538 00:19:31,789 --> 00:19:32,690 being useful 539 00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:34,289 and being peacemakers 540 00:19:34,590 --> 00:19:36,430 among the people who are screaming at each 541 00:19:36,430 --> 00:19:36,765 other. 542 00:19:37,724 --> 00:19:39,484 And there are other people who wanna get 543 00:19:39,484 --> 00:19:40,224 it exactly 544 00:19:40,765 --> 00:19:41,984 technical right. 545 00:19:42,684 --> 00:19:44,684 And I think part of the problem that 546 00:19:44,684 --> 00:19:45,904 happens in the IETF 547 00:19:46,365 --> 00:19:47,825 and other standards organizations 548 00:19:48,204 --> 00:19:50,045 is the people who wanna get it perfectly 549 00:19:50,045 --> 00:19:52,144 right end up paneling the process 550 00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:53,960 rather than the peacemakers, 551 00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,619 and it makes the process very precise. Did 552 00:19:57,619 --> 00:19:58,920 you word this email 553 00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:02,019 exactly correctly? Because if you don't word it 554 00:20:02,019 --> 00:20:02,519 correctly, 555 00:20:03,059 --> 00:20:05,640 then that officially did never occur. Like, 556 00:20:06,734 --> 00:20:08,835 no. That's not the way things actually 557 00:20:09,375 --> 00:20:11,375 work. Right? That's a machine that's a machine's 558 00:20:11,375 --> 00:20:13,154 view. Right? That's a machine's view. Yes. 559 00:20:14,815 --> 00:20:15,315 Interesting. 560 00:20:16,815 --> 00:20:18,990 So, Yvonne, looks like you have something on 561 00:20:18,990 --> 00:20:20,509 the top of your head. Well, no. I 562 00:20:20,509 --> 00:20:22,590 was just thinking about, you know, I 563 00:20:24,109 --> 00:20:26,269 I've had some questions in my work life 564 00:20:26,269 --> 00:20:27,730 earlier this week about, 565 00:20:28,029 --> 00:20:29,570 you know, every organization 566 00:20:30,190 --> 00:20:30,690 has, 567 00:20:31,275 --> 00:20:34,154 there may not be formal certification processes, but 568 00:20:34,154 --> 00:20:36,494 conversations or or processes to validate 569 00:20:37,434 --> 00:20:39,755 that people know the things that they're supposed 570 00:20:39,755 --> 00:20:40,414 to know. 571 00:20:40,795 --> 00:20:42,955 And and it's funny because I've always been 572 00:20:42,955 --> 00:20:45,515 a very, like, spirit of the law kind 573 00:20:45,515 --> 00:20:46,970 of a person. Like, people are supposed to 574 00:20:46,970 --> 00:20:49,129 fill out this kind of document and build 575 00:20:49,129 --> 00:20:51,369 a packet, and it's supposed to demonstrate their 576 00:20:51,369 --> 00:20:53,950 knowledge and expertise and x y z. And 577 00:20:54,009 --> 00:20:55,929 one of the reasons I always struggled with 578 00:20:55,929 --> 00:20:56,429 certifications, 579 00:20:57,450 --> 00:20:59,474 I got a few, but I was never 580 00:20:59,474 --> 00:21:01,634 super passionate about it because I felt like 581 00:21:01,634 --> 00:21:02,295 they were 582 00:21:02,835 --> 00:21:05,414 so much they always tend toward the mathematicians 583 00:21:05,634 --> 00:21:06,375 side of things. 584 00:21:06,835 --> 00:21:08,755 Alright? Can you check the box? Can you 585 00:21:08,755 --> 00:21:09,575 answer the question? 586 00:21:10,035 --> 00:21:11,869 And and so I had a conversation spirit 587 00:21:17,210 --> 00:21:20,702 of the law kind of a person. Did 588 00:21:20,702 --> 00:21:23,545 the person demonstrate that they have the spirit 589 00:21:23,545 --> 00:21:25,065 of the law kind of a person. Did 590 00:21:25,065 --> 00:21:26,204 the person demonstrate 591 00:21:26,585 --> 00:21:28,265 that they have the skills and the ability 592 00:21:28,265 --> 00:21:29,545 and the knowledge that they need to be 593 00:21:29,545 --> 00:21:31,865 able to execute the job? And to me, 594 00:21:31,865 --> 00:21:33,565 if the answer to that is yes, 595 00:21:34,505 --> 00:21:36,089 then we say yes and we move on 596 00:21:36,329 --> 00:21:38,250 because I'm I don't wanna be in the 597 00:21:38,250 --> 00:21:39,549 business of nitpicking 598 00:21:40,329 --> 00:21:42,509 every little box and every little spot. 599 00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:43,950 The problem is 600 00:21:44,490 --> 00:21:46,029 on the other side of that, 601 00:21:47,690 --> 00:21:49,529 people can play fast and loose with the 602 00:21:49,609 --> 00:21:51,345 with that kind of approach as well, 603 00:21:51,825 --> 00:21:54,005 and then you don't have any standards. Right? 604 00:21:54,464 --> 00:21:55,924 And so it it 605 00:21:56,464 --> 00:21:58,005 and I think some of this is personality 606 00:21:58,144 --> 00:21:59,284 based and, 607 00:21:59,825 --> 00:22:01,904 you know, but but I also think, like, 608 00:22:01,904 --> 00:22:03,924 we're moving more toward, 609 00:22:06,299 --> 00:22:08,319 and that we will have more value 610 00:22:09,179 --> 00:22:10,240 for the folks 611 00:22:10,779 --> 00:22:11,519 who can 612 00:22:12,059 --> 00:22:13,919 figure out that kind of ambiguity 613 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:18,220 Yeah. And and make progress within it as 614 00:22:18,220 --> 00:22:19,200 opposed to, 615 00:22:19,579 --> 00:22:20,859 I did all the things and know all 616 00:22:20,859 --> 00:22:22,855 the things just ask me, and I can 617 00:22:22,914 --> 00:22:25,894 answer the most esoteric question you could possibly 618 00:22:25,954 --> 00:22:29,174 ever ask me about Yeah. You know, protocol. 619 00:22:29,394 --> 00:22:31,315 I'll give you an example from I don't 620 00:22:31,315 --> 00:22:31,815 know. 621 00:22:32,355 --> 00:22:34,375 Not too long ago, but long ago. 622 00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:37,210 I once filled out an an expense report. 623 00:22:37,349 --> 00:22:38,809 It's gonna sound really stupid. 624 00:22:39,429 --> 00:22:40,409 And the way that 625 00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:43,210 the hotel set up their 626 00:22:44,069 --> 00:22:44,809 their bill, 627 00:22:45,349 --> 00:22:47,529 there was 25 different taxes 628 00:22:48,069 --> 00:22:50,149 on the single night because they wanna split 629 00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:51,884 it all out and say, okay. You paid 630 00:22:51,884 --> 00:22:54,305 the city 15¢, and you paid the county 631 00:22:54,525 --> 00:22:55,485 25¢, 632 00:22:55,485 --> 00:22:56,285 and you paid, 633 00:22:56,605 --> 00:22:58,285 you know, the state x amount and on 634 00:22:58,285 --> 00:23:00,125 and on and on. And there's this fat, 635 00:23:00,125 --> 00:23:01,424 and there's this and there's that. 636 00:23:02,205 --> 00:23:04,140 And so me, I'm like, 637 00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:06,539 there are two slots for taxes on the 638 00:23:06,539 --> 00:23:07,039 thing. 639 00:23:07,660 --> 00:23:09,119 So I'm going to simply 640 00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:11,279 sum all the taxes up 641 00:23:11,660 --> 00:23:13,599 and put them in one of those slots. 642 00:23:14,539 --> 00:23:15,759 The numbers match. 643 00:23:16,315 --> 00:23:17,755 I don't really care whether it was a 644 00:23:17,755 --> 00:23:19,355 city tax or a state tax or a 645 00:23:19,355 --> 00:23:21,434 county tax or a VAT or I could 646 00:23:21,434 --> 00:23:23,134 care less. It's a tax. 647 00:23:23,914 --> 00:23:25,434 Oh, no. No. No. No. No. No. The 648 00:23:25,434 --> 00:23:28,315 expense report was kicked back. You must go 649 00:23:28,315 --> 00:23:30,950 in and use the additional boxes and put 650 00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:32,570 in every 15¢. 651 00:23:33,109 --> 00:23:34,869 Every one of those taxes has to be 652 00:23:34,869 --> 00:23:35,690 to the penny. 653 00:23:36,070 --> 00:23:37,990 Correct. And all of them have to be 654 00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:39,690 correctly listed because, 655 00:23:40,309 --> 00:23:42,224 you know, that's the way we do things. 656 00:23:43,184 --> 00:23:43,845 And, like, 657 00:23:44,625 --> 00:23:45,125 okay. 658 00:23:47,265 --> 00:23:47,924 You know? 659 00:23:50,144 --> 00:23:50,644 And 660 00:23:51,265 --> 00:23:53,684 we're back to taste and judgment 661 00:23:54,065 --> 00:23:56,164 and Oh, yes. Trying to understand 662 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,339 if, like, 663 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,500 is there is there actual 664 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:01,380 data 665 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,299 that to be gleaned from making you itemize 666 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:06,660 out each one of those? 667 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:07,619 Or 668 00:24:08,319 --> 00:24:10,240 Yeah. Is it is it just a process? 669 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,345 Is it just toil for the sake of 670 00:24:12,345 --> 00:24:14,825 toil? And I think the ability to distinguish 671 00:24:14,825 --> 00:24:15,865 between those two things, 672 00:24:17,224 --> 00:24:19,224 we we are not gonna be in want 673 00:24:19,224 --> 00:24:21,305 of information, and that's been the case for, 674 00:24:21,305 --> 00:24:23,224 you know, a couple decades at this point 675 00:24:23,224 --> 00:24:26,025 with Google and the Internet and, you know, 676 00:24:26,025 --> 00:24:28,480 it's it's it's it's under you know, it's 677 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,460 knowing what data matters in what scenario 678 00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:34,240 and what to apply when and where and 679 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,619 then how deep to go. 680 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:37,940 Because I I see a lot of people 681 00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:40,275 making mistakes because they go too deep, 682 00:24:41,714 --> 00:24:43,795 not not because they don't go deep enough. 683 00:24:43,795 --> 00:24:45,474 And some of that is just because the 684 00:24:45,474 --> 00:24:47,394 world of which I operate these days. Yeah. 685 00:24:47,394 --> 00:24:49,875 But you you I heard a very wise 686 00:24:49,875 --> 00:24:51,015 man say once, 687 00:24:51,315 --> 00:24:53,075 you can drive off the road into the 688 00:24:53,075 --> 00:24:54,695 ditch on both sides. Mhmm. 689 00:24:55,210 --> 00:24:55,789 You know? 690 00:24:56,650 --> 00:24:58,190 And because the goal is to keep it 691 00:24:58,570 --> 00:24:59,549 between the ditches. 692 00:24:59,850 --> 00:25:02,490 Right? And you swerve too far either way, 693 00:25:02,490 --> 00:25:03,549 you end up in trouble. 694 00:25:04,650 --> 00:25:05,710 Yep. Yep. 695 00:25:06,490 --> 00:25:08,984 Okay. Well, I don't have anything else to 696 00:25:09,065 --> 00:25:11,005 put on that topic. Anything, Yvonne? 697 00:25:12,025 --> 00:25:13,804 All good. Anything, Tom? 698 00:25:14,345 --> 00:25:16,045 Nope. I'm good. Alright. Cool. 699 00:25:16,424 --> 00:25:18,744 Alright. So thank you for listening to this 700 00:25:18,744 --> 00:25:21,644 episode. Oh, I'm sorry. Let's back up. Tom, 701 00:25:21,944 --> 00:25:22,845 say your word. 702 00:25:25,259 --> 00:25:25,759 LinkedIn. 703 00:25:29,420 --> 00:25:31,039 And Yvonne, say your words. 704 00:25:32,299 --> 00:25:33,440 I have a lot of words. 705 00:25:34,140 --> 00:25:36,380 You can find me on LinkedIn, Yvonne Sharp, 706 00:25:36,380 --> 00:25:38,380 or you can also catch me with William 707 00:25:38,380 --> 00:25:40,875 Collins over on the Cloud Gambit and sometimes 708 00:25:41,095 --> 00:25:43,414 on x at Sharp Network. Alright. Cool. I'm 709 00:25:43,414 --> 00:25:44,615 Russ White. You can find me here at 710 00:25:44,615 --> 00:25:46,234 rule11.tech@thehedge, 711 00:25:46,775 --> 00:25:49,355 and sometimes on x at routing geek 712 00:25:49,654 --> 00:25:52,089 and sometimes on LinkedIn. I mean, I'm just 713 00:25:52,089 --> 00:25:53,769 not a huge social media person, which is 714 00:25:53,769 --> 00:25:55,849 unfortunate because that's how you get attention nowadays. 715 00:25:55,849 --> 00:25:56,329 But anyway 716 00:25:56,889 --> 00:25:58,769 alright. Well, thanks for listening to this episode 717 00:25:58,769 --> 00:26:00,169 of The Hedge. We know that we live 718 00:26:00,169 --> 00:26:02,809 in an attention driven economy and that your 719 00:26:02,809 --> 00:26:03,309 attention 720 00:26:03,690 --> 00:26:04,190 is 721 00:26:04,555 --> 00:26:06,875 the critical thing right now. So, again, thank 722 00:26:06,875 --> 00:26:07,994 you for listening all the way to the 723 00:26:07,994 --> 00:26:09,595 bitter end, and we will catch you next 724 00:26:09,595 --> 00:26:10,095 time.