1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,779 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:05,219 where we dig into technology, 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,240 business, and culture with the finest minds in 4 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:09,139 computer networking. 5 00:00:21,054 --> 00:00:22,595 Well, hello, Yvonne's 6 00:00:22,975 --> 00:00:23,795 frog lamp. 7 00:00:24,734 --> 00:00:25,875 Good afternoon. 8 00:00:26,429 --> 00:00:28,210 From the frog lamp and me. 9 00:00:30,030 --> 00:00:31,570 We are going to need 10 00:00:31,870 --> 00:00:33,810 so I got an official request 11 00:00:34,590 --> 00:00:35,090 for 12 00:00:35,469 --> 00:00:37,729 a live webcam of the plant. 13 00:00:38,054 --> 00:00:39,494 So now we're gonna have to have a 14 00:00:39,494 --> 00:00:41,655 live webcam of the plant and the frog 15 00:00:41,655 --> 00:00:43,674 lamp. That would be 16 00:00:44,695 --> 00:00:45,755 a sleep inducing, 17 00:00:47,734 --> 00:00:48,234 like, 18 00:00:48,614 --> 00:00:50,774 stream that, you know, it just sits there. 19 00:00:50,774 --> 00:00:53,015 I mean, maybe once a year, the bulb 20 00:00:53,015 --> 00:00:54,750 will burn out and need to be replaced, 21 00:00:54,890 --> 00:00:56,729 and that's all the excitement you're gonna get 22 00:00:56,729 --> 00:00:57,390 from the. 23 00:00:57,690 --> 00:00:59,770 So Yvonne, I just have to break in 24 00:00:59,770 --> 00:01:01,130 at this point, and, Russ, you can say 25 00:01:01,130 --> 00:01:03,210 who this new voice is at some point. 26 00:01:03,210 --> 00:01:05,370 But, there is a play on Broadway right 27 00:01:05,370 --> 00:01:06,890 now where a plant is one of the 28 00:01:06,890 --> 00:01:08,924 stars, and it is you know, it's not 29 00:01:08,924 --> 00:01:10,525 one that you would think it might be. 30 00:01:10,525 --> 00:01:11,885 It is a whole new one that is 31 00:01:11,885 --> 00:01:12,625 a breakout's 32 00:01:13,405 --> 00:01:15,805 new play on Broadway. So maybe you've got 33 00:01:15,805 --> 00:01:17,405 a future for you with your plant and 34 00:01:17,405 --> 00:01:19,084 the, you know, and the the landline. No. 35 00:01:19,084 --> 00:01:21,325 It's Tom's plant. Tom's plant is the one 36 00:01:21,325 --> 00:01:22,859 everyone wants. Tom's plant. 37 00:01:23,340 --> 00:01:25,359 Yeah. Tom's Yeah. Well, Tom's 38 00:01:25,819 --> 00:01:28,140 plant is a new addition. They're they're both 39 00:01:28,140 --> 00:01:29,040 live, but 40 00:01:29,340 --> 00:01:32,939 yeah. Okay. It's yeah. We constantly worry about 41 00:01:32,939 --> 00:01:33,840 Tom's plant. 42 00:01:34,140 --> 00:01:35,359 So how are you, Tom? 43 00:01:35,819 --> 00:01:37,420 I'm I'm good, but I know you really 44 00:01:37,420 --> 00:01:38,995 are caring about the plant, and so the 45 00:01:38,995 --> 00:01:41,474 plant is fine. And its ego has been 46 00:01:41,474 --> 00:01:43,155 stroked quite a bit by that last message 47 00:01:43,155 --> 00:01:44,834 we got from a listener saying they want 48 00:01:44,834 --> 00:01:47,075 to see it see it live. So the 49 00:01:47,075 --> 00:01:47,894 plant's happy. 50 00:01:48,674 --> 00:01:50,915 Yeah. There you go. I can see you 51 00:01:50,915 --> 00:01:53,549 can see, like, the vibrancy, can't you, Yvonne? 52 00:01:53,790 --> 00:01:54,530 In the 53 00:01:55,950 --> 00:01:57,710 plant? I I'm not sure this is the 54 00:01:57,710 --> 00:01:59,710 same plant that's been there the whole time. 55 00:01:59,710 --> 00:02:01,329 I'm not I'm not sure. 56 00:02:01,630 --> 00:02:04,130 Oh. What? Are you accusing him of substituting 57 00:02:04,270 --> 00:02:05,170 a new plant? 58 00:02:06,350 --> 00:02:07,950 I would have to go back to old 59 00:02:07,950 --> 00:02:10,155 video clips and confirm. But 60 00:02:10,854 --> 00:02:12,314 I suspect that 61 00:02:12,854 --> 00:02:14,775 the leaves have a little more coloration in 62 00:02:14,775 --> 00:02:16,394 them than they used to. So 63 00:02:16,935 --> 00:02:18,394 Maybe he's singing to it. 64 00:02:18,775 --> 00:02:20,555 Maybe. Yeah. It'd be. It'd be. 65 00:02:20,935 --> 00:02:23,034 So the third person back there is 66 00:02:23,419 --> 00:02:25,180 fourth person, whatever it is. I I I 67 00:02:25,180 --> 00:02:27,180 can't count. Don't worry about me. I'm an 68 00:02:27,180 --> 00:02:28,479 engineer, not a mathematician. 69 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:30,000 Is Lucy Rose? 70 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:32,060 And Lucy's here to talk to us today 71 00:02:32,060 --> 00:02:33,900 about loneliness. So talk to us a little 72 00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:36,620 bit about yourself before we start talking about 73 00:02:36,620 --> 00:02:37,360 that, Lucy. 74 00:02:38,155 --> 00:02:39,834 And and by the way, in your project, 75 00:02:39,834 --> 00:02:41,194 I know you've written a book on this. 76 00:02:41,194 --> 00:02:43,354 So let's not I would be happy to, 77 00:02:43,354 --> 00:02:44,955 and and I do think I am a 78 00:02:44,955 --> 00:02:47,034 person, not a plant or a lamp. But 79 00:02:47,034 --> 00:02:48,955 if if you all think otherwise, just just 80 00:02:48,955 --> 00:02:50,909 let me know before this is over. Okay? 81 00:02:51,049 --> 00:02:52,889 Yeah. My name is Lucy, and I am 82 00:02:52,889 --> 00:02:54,969 delighted. Thank you all for having me today 83 00:02:54,969 --> 00:02:57,310 and being a part of this, amazing discussion 84 00:02:57,370 --> 00:02:57,870 already. 85 00:02:58,409 --> 00:03:00,169 I take it the plant is not lonely, 86 00:03:00,329 --> 00:03:02,169 because it's got followers, so that's a good 87 00:03:02,169 --> 00:03:03,389 thing. Yeah. 88 00:03:05,055 --> 00:03:07,215 I have been I've been involved in public 89 00:03:07,215 --> 00:03:09,375 health for thirty years, a very long time. 90 00:03:09,375 --> 00:03:10,115 It's been, 91 00:03:11,615 --> 00:03:14,335 it's been the entire trajectory of my professional 92 00:03:14,335 --> 00:03:14,835 career. 93 00:03:15,135 --> 00:03:15,841 So I have worked at the Food Drug 94 00:03:15,841 --> 00:03:15,948 Administration as a senior leader there. I own 95 00:03:15,948 --> 00:03:16,594 my own business and work as a 96 00:03:27,180 --> 00:03:29,659 information that goes out to health care providers 97 00:03:29,659 --> 00:03:31,760 and patients is truthful and not misleading, 98 00:03:32,094 --> 00:03:34,014 that it provides the kind of information all 99 00:03:34,014 --> 00:03:36,175 of us need in order to use products 100 00:03:36,175 --> 00:03:38,735 the best and most effectively. So I've done 101 00:03:38,735 --> 00:03:40,354 that for a very long time. 102 00:03:41,055 --> 00:03:43,294 But about eight years ago, Russ, I I 103 00:03:43,455 --> 00:03:44,814 I'm a PA, by the way, so I'm 104 00:03:44,814 --> 00:03:46,655 a physician assistant. I have an MBA in 105 00:03:46,655 --> 00:03:47,155 marketing. 106 00:03:48,110 --> 00:03:49,789 Lots of things that I enjoy doing in 107 00:03:49,789 --> 00:03:52,129 life, but all of them dedicated to health. 108 00:03:52,189 --> 00:03:53,650 And about eight years ago, 109 00:03:54,110 --> 00:03:56,349 because of the extensive travel that I've had, 110 00:03:56,669 --> 00:03:58,669 during my entire professional life and I mean, 111 00:03:58,669 --> 00:04:00,509 guys, like, you're looking at a person who 112 00:04:00,509 --> 00:04:02,985 probably needs some therapy just for this alone. 113 00:04:03,064 --> 00:04:05,465 I traveled six week six days a week 114 00:04:05,465 --> 00:04:08,025 for twenty years. So you're looking at a 115 00:04:08,025 --> 00:04:10,764 person with, how many, 8,000,000, 116 00:04:11,224 --> 00:04:12,365 almost 9,000,000 117 00:04:12,745 --> 00:04:13,965 hotel points 118 00:04:14,264 --> 00:04:15,405 and 5,000,000 119 00:04:15,544 --> 00:04:17,805 airline miles. Way too much travel. 120 00:04:18,430 --> 00:04:20,449 And it made me lonely, quite frankly. 121 00:04:20,990 --> 00:04:23,149 And loneliness really is we think about what 122 00:04:23,149 --> 00:04:25,709 does that mean. It's pain. It's true pain. 123 00:04:25,709 --> 00:04:28,110 And I'm talking chronic loneliness, not what you 124 00:04:28,110 --> 00:04:29,470 felt like in eighth grade when you're in 125 00:04:29,470 --> 00:04:31,149 the corner in the dance and nobody was 126 00:04:31,149 --> 00:04:33,810 paying attention to you. That's situational loneliness. 127 00:04:34,324 --> 00:04:37,524 Chronic loneliness is that difference between what you 128 00:04:37,524 --> 00:04:40,404 need to fill your your spirit inside, feel 129 00:04:40,404 --> 00:04:41,225 like you belong, 130 00:04:41,685 --> 00:04:43,764 feel like you are cared for in this 131 00:04:43,764 --> 00:04:46,964 world, the intimate kind of emotional relationships we 132 00:04:46,964 --> 00:04:47,625 all need 133 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,920 when that's not being met. And so it 134 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:51,460 feels different for each person 135 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,400 because, Yvonne, you might need three best friends, 136 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,879 and Tom might need five and Russ one 137 00:04:56,879 --> 00:04:59,040 or whatever that may be in terms of 138 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,600 thinking about what fills you. But about eight 139 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:03,824 years ago, I realized how lonely I was 140 00:05:03,824 --> 00:05:05,824 from that travel and staying in hotels every 141 00:05:05,824 --> 00:05:08,625 night alone, and it was impacting me physically 142 00:05:08,625 --> 00:05:09,365 and emotionally. 143 00:05:09,904 --> 00:05:11,425 And I took a look at the world 144 00:05:11,425 --> 00:05:13,584 and said, woah. It's not just me. There's 145 00:05:13,584 --> 00:05:15,449 a whole lot of people that are being 146 00:05:15,449 --> 00:05:18,250 impacted by this and started doing research into 147 00:05:18,250 --> 00:05:20,250 the dollars that were being lost and the 148 00:05:20,250 --> 00:05:22,889 productivity that was being lost and the systems 149 00:05:22,889 --> 00:05:24,650 that should be there, Russ, and Art when 150 00:05:24,650 --> 00:05:27,345 we think about networking and networking systems and 151 00:05:27,425 --> 00:05:29,584 how it's not built into our culture because 152 00:05:29,584 --> 00:05:31,584 we're all about, yes. You can. Pull yourself 153 00:05:31,584 --> 00:05:33,824 up by the bootstraps. You don't need anybody 154 00:05:33,824 --> 00:05:35,745 to help you with that. Don't cry. You 155 00:05:35,745 --> 00:05:38,305 can hear all of this. And so that's 156 00:05:38,305 --> 00:05:40,560 when I away from home to take that 157 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,199 big new job. Right? Leave your support system. 158 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:44,959 Your fam you don't need them. You're fine. 159 00:05:44,959 --> 00:05:47,519 That's right. Oh, yeah. All that stuff. And 160 00:05:47,519 --> 00:05:49,599 so I decided to dedicate part of my 161 00:05:49,599 --> 00:05:51,919 life to to really making folks aware of 162 00:05:51,919 --> 00:05:52,419 this, 163 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,375 helping encourage folks to build systems and to 164 00:05:55,375 --> 00:05:57,694 pay attention to this and to understand that 165 00:05:57,694 --> 00:05:59,154 this is as important, 166 00:05:59,535 --> 00:06:01,375 if not more so, than going to the 167 00:06:01,375 --> 00:06:03,535 gym and taking care of our physical cells, 168 00:06:03,535 --> 00:06:06,095 etcetera. So I started with that project you 169 00:06:06,095 --> 00:06:08,274 said called the the cost of loneliness project 170 00:06:08,579 --> 00:06:10,519 that is there and exists 171 00:06:11,220 --> 00:06:14,040 to really convene and catalyze and connect 172 00:06:14,579 --> 00:06:17,699 people and communities and systems in our country 173 00:06:17,699 --> 00:06:19,540 and in our world to help us all 174 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:21,220 be more fulfilled and get what we need 175 00:06:21,220 --> 00:06:23,060 that way. Pay attention to it and do 176 00:06:23,060 --> 00:06:25,175 something about it. And you're talking about dollars 177 00:06:25,175 --> 00:06:27,095 and cents in one direction, but there's other 178 00:06:27,095 --> 00:06:28,775 directions. Like, I assume if you're what you're 179 00:06:28,775 --> 00:06:30,235 thinking there is you're thinking, 180 00:06:31,014 --> 00:06:31,514 okay. 181 00:06:31,895 --> 00:06:34,055 There we talked about apathy last week on 182 00:06:34,055 --> 00:06:36,134 our show, which is, like, odd. People are 183 00:06:36,134 --> 00:06:37,275 like, you know but 184 00:06:38,610 --> 00:06:41,009 it's part of the reason that people are 185 00:06:41,009 --> 00:06:43,889 apathetic is because they are lonely. That's one 186 00:06:43,889 --> 00:06:45,430 of the problems. Right. 187 00:06:45,730 --> 00:06:47,970 And the other thing is not just lost 188 00:06:47,970 --> 00:06:48,470 productivity, 189 00:06:48,770 --> 00:06:50,550 but the health problems it causes 190 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:53,990 from, like, being under 191 00:06:54,314 --> 00:06:55,455 constant stress 192 00:06:56,555 --> 00:06:58,975 of being lonely. Like, that whole 193 00:06:59,514 --> 00:07:01,675 seeking things out and not being able to 194 00:07:01,675 --> 00:07:04,654 find it, I think drives a lot of 195 00:07:04,715 --> 00:07:06,014 stress in your life 196 00:07:06,475 --> 00:07:07,215 that then 197 00:07:07,970 --> 00:07:09,110 falls back into 198 00:07:09,569 --> 00:07:12,290 heart problems and muscle problems and Yeah. It 199 00:07:12,290 --> 00:07:14,850 does. Internal It does. Like organ or whatever 200 00:07:14,850 --> 00:07:15,350 kind. 201 00:07:16,290 --> 00:07:18,370 Absolutely. And it it's kind of a paradox 202 00:07:18,370 --> 00:07:21,730 too because as a lonely person seeks soothing 203 00:07:21,730 --> 00:07:22,230 behaviors, 204 00:07:22,735 --> 00:07:24,915 and those behaviors could be overeating 205 00:07:25,215 --> 00:07:27,694 as an example or addiction or buying too 206 00:07:27,694 --> 00:07:28,194 much 207 00:07:28,574 --> 00:07:31,055 in a at a local store or online 208 00:07:31,055 --> 00:07:32,735 or whatever it may be, all kinds of 209 00:07:32,735 --> 00:07:33,875 ways we do that. 210 00:07:34,254 --> 00:07:36,254 It's kind of a paradox, isn't it? Because 211 00:07:36,254 --> 00:07:38,160 as we go to the soothing behaviors, they 212 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,400 make life worse, not better, ultimately, in the 213 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,300 long run. And so it becomes even harder. 214 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,360 But, you know, as I think, yes, you're 215 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:46,960 right. I mean, let's just put dollars on 216 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,060 it. The amount of dollars estimated 217 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:51,460 lost in this country due to absenteeism 218 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:52,500 alone, 219 00:07:52,805 --> 00:07:53,625 Just absenteeism. 220 00:07:54,004 --> 00:07:55,925 $460,000,000,000 221 00:07:55,925 --> 00:07:58,884 from business every year. And that doesn't include, 222 00:07:58,884 --> 00:08:00,985 Russ, your cons your thoughts about 223 00:08:01,524 --> 00:08:04,324 how the hormone cortisol is released with chronic 224 00:08:04,324 --> 00:08:06,504 stress and chronic anxiety causes 225 00:08:07,159 --> 00:08:09,500 heart disease, GI disease, cancer, 226 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:11,419 even dementia, perhaps. 227 00:08:11,959 --> 00:08:13,639 As all that happens, that's not even included 228 00:08:13,639 --> 00:08:15,180 in that 460,000,000,000, 229 00:08:15,319 --> 00:08:17,560 nor is the treatment for addiction or any 230 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,120 of those other things. So the cost dollar 231 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,615 wise, just pure dollar wise, is it is 232 00:08:22,615 --> 00:08:24,694 just almost hard to believe or imagine and 233 00:08:24,694 --> 00:08:25,435 put it together. 234 00:08:26,134 --> 00:08:27,894 Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I 235 00:08:27,894 --> 00:08:30,134 find in our our world, especially when it 236 00:08:30,134 --> 00:08:33,654 comes to any topic related to feelings, mental 237 00:08:33,654 --> 00:08:35,034 health, any of that, 238 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:36,980 we don't have a vocabulary 239 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:40,639 to even talk about it. Right? And so 240 00:08:40,639 --> 00:08:41,860 if you don't have a vocabulary, 241 00:08:42,879 --> 00:08:44,659 you have a hard time even recognizing 242 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:46,339 the condition. 243 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:48,179 Right? And so 244 00:08:48,985 --> 00:08:49,725 what should 245 00:08:50,184 --> 00:08:52,825 what are the things that people might notice 246 00:08:52,825 --> 00:08:55,544 in themselves to even help them know whether 247 00:08:55,544 --> 00:08:58,184 this is a problem for them or somebody 248 00:08:58,184 --> 00:08:59,085 they care about? 249 00:08:59,465 --> 00:09:00,924 How how do you know you're lonely? 250 00:09:01,929 --> 00:09:03,610 You feel it in your in your heart 251 00:09:03,610 --> 00:09:04,590 and soul, frankly. 252 00:09:05,210 --> 00:09:07,850 It's a heartache almost that that one can 253 00:09:07,850 --> 00:09:10,330 feel. But what you also see and, you 254 00:09:10,330 --> 00:09:11,929 know, it depends on age as well. I 255 00:09:11,929 --> 00:09:13,370 mean, if you're a parent looking at a 256 00:09:13,370 --> 00:09:14,504 child as an example, 257 00:09:14,804 --> 00:09:17,444 that child's grades might have been all a's 258 00:09:17,444 --> 00:09:19,924 and b's, and suddenly now they're not wanting 259 00:09:19,924 --> 00:09:22,004 to do their homework and their grades are 260 00:09:22,004 --> 00:09:23,605 falling. Or we used to see them on 261 00:09:23,605 --> 00:09:24,804 the phone all the time, like, in the 262 00:09:24,804 --> 00:09:26,404 old days. Now I guess it's texting or 263 00:09:26,404 --> 00:09:26,789 whatever. 264 00:09:27,509 --> 00:09:29,190 But and that that has its own place 265 00:09:29,190 --> 00:09:31,429 we should talk about before we go. But, 266 00:09:31,429 --> 00:09:32,949 you know, now they're not doing that as 267 00:09:32,949 --> 00:09:34,629 much, so they're not connecting. They used to 268 00:09:34,629 --> 00:09:37,190 be involved in sports. And this season, they 269 00:09:37,190 --> 00:09:38,629 said, I'm really not sure I wanna play 270 00:09:38,629 --> 00:09:41,815 baseball anymore. You know, you can see actual 271 00:09:41,815 --> 00:09:44,855 changes happen. You also can see folks again 272 00:09:44,855 --> 00:09:47,034 begin to get sick because the immune system 273 00:09:47,495 --> 00:09:49,975 gets down, when in fact you're lonely and 274 00:09:49,975 --> 00:09:52,375 this cortisol releases and all of that happens 275 00:09:52,375 --> 00:09:52,875 too. 276 00:09:53,495 --> 00:09:55,575 You might stay home to apathy. Russ, you 277 00:09:55,575 --> 00:09:57,860 already mentioned apathy. One of the things that 278 00:09:57,860 --> 00:09:59,860 that pops up often is folks just say, 279 00:09:59,860 --> 00:10:01,700 I I don't care anymore. They choose to 280 00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:04,019 stay home instead of going to a party 281 00:10:04,019 --> 00:10:06,179 this season this holiday season. You know? And 282 00:10:06,179 --> 00:10:07,539 they they they don't wanna go to dinner, 283 00:10:07,539 --> 00:10:09,080 and they start turning down invitations. 284 00:10:09,460 --> 00:10:11,695 All kinds of things can happen up to 285 00:10:11,695 --> 00:10:14,014 and including the soothing behaviors we were just 286 00:10:14,014 --> 00:10:16,595 talking about as well. Because you know inside, 287 00:10:17,214 --> 00:10:19,615 you're you're not being seen. You're not feeling 288 00:10:19,615 --> 00:10:22,254 cared for. Something feels missing Yeah. In your 289 00:10:22,254 --> 00:10:22,754 soul. 290 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,600 I have I have a couple kids still 291 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:27,120 at home, and and I know during the 292 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,080 pandemic back when, like, we were doing school 293 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,299 at home, and 294 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:34,879 kids lost a lot of those connections that 295 00:10:34,879 --> 00:10:36,879 they had with school and friends. I even 296 00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:38,179 noticed in my own children 297 00:10:38,884 --> 00:10:40,884 that they would hit a point where they 298 00:10:40,884 --> 00:10:43,144 just continued to further withdraw 299 00:10:44,245 --> 00:10:47,465 and they didn't understand what was going on. 300 00:10:48,004 --> 00:10:49,544 And we had to actively 301 00:10:49,924 --> 00:10:50,424 say, 302 00:10:51,044 --> 00:10:52,424 come out of your room, 303 00:10:52,820 --> 00:10:54,839 sit in here with me and your dad, 304 00:10:55,139 --> 00:10:56,360 let's have a conversation, 305 00:10:56,820 --> 00:10:58,500 let's get out of the house and go 306 00:10:58,500 --> 00:10:59,159 do something. 307 00:10:59,620 --> 00:11:02,339 And then when we prompted them to, and 308 00:11:02,339 --> 00:11:03,879 then they started interacting, 309 00:11:04,659 --> 00:11:06,440 a lot of those behaviors got better. 310 00:11:06,899 --> 00:11:07,399 But 311 00:11:07,884 --> 00:11:10,125 you have to recognize it and make some 312 00:11:10,125 --> 00:11:13,485 kind of behavior change in order to solve 313 00:11:13,485 --> 00:11:14,144 the problem. 314 00:11:15,084 --> 00:11:16,605 And when it's your children, at least you 315 00:11:16,605 --> 00:11:18,924 can kinda say, hey, I'm mom. We gotta 316 00:11:18,924 --> 00:11:21,404 do this. Right? But I I also think 317 00:11:21,404 --> 00:11:24,710 that the pandemic and the changes in schedule 318 00:11:24,710 --> 00:11:25,370 and routine 319 00:11:26,309 --> 00:11:28,230 kick started loneliness for a lot of people. 320 00:11:28,230 --> 00:11:29,990 And then when you're in it, if you 321 00:11:29,990 --> 00:11:33,190 don't recognize this what's going on, it's harder 322 00:11:33,190 --> 00:11:35,054 to pull yourself out of it. 323 00:11:35,534 --> 00:11:37,455 It's really harder because one of the things 324 00:11:37,455 --> 00:11:38,975 you don't wanna do is go out when 325 00:11:38,975 --> 00:11:40,894 you're lonely. Right. Because you're putting yourself out 326 00:11:40,894 --> 00:11:42,975 there. And what if folks don't say, come 327 00:11:42,975 --> 00:11:44,815 on, Yvonne. Let's hug each other or do 328 00:11:44,815 --> 00:11:47,054 whatever and accept you? And I think, you 329 00:11:47,054 --> 00:11:48,975 know, when you mentioned COVID and you mentioned 330 00:11:48,975 --> 00:11:51,840 this younger children, it scares me to death 331 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,559 about this next generation coming up because I'm 332 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,799 not sure they've learned those social skills or 333 00:11:56,799 --> 00:11:59,679 that we have really focused on empathy and 334 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,320 teaching them how to, you know, do what 335 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,964 we're talking about here. Kudos to you for 336 00:12:04,964 --> 00:12:07,284 recognizing it and for saying and for modeling 337 00:12:07,284 --> 00:12:09,605 it and for saying, let's go out. Let's 338 00:12:09,605 --> 00:12:12,085 do this. Let's do that. Because it really 339 00:12:12,085 --> 00:12:14,804 sometimes takes some real jump starting on our 340 00:12:14,804 --> 00:12:16,884 behalf as parents to notice it, a, in 341 00:12:16,884 --> 00:12:19,199 ourselves, if we're lonely, and to notice it 342 00:12:19,199 --> 00:12:21,199 in our kids and then to say, yeah. 343 00:12:21,199 --> 00:12:23,360 Together, we can do something about it. And 344 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:25,860 what great thing. Setting rituals as a family 345 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,320 can also be important. Maybe we do pizza 346 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,639 night every Friday, and people get excited about 347 00:12:30,639 --> 00:12:32,134 it. Or you and your kid take a 348 00:12:32,134 --> 00:12:34,454 walk together in the woods on a Saturday 349 00:12:34,454 --> 00:12:37,095 afternoon or whatever that may be. So I 350 00:12:37,095 --> 00:12:40,074 think recognizing it is in part, 351 00:12:41,894 --> 00:12:44,394 knowing that you are getting sick more often, 352 00:12:45,139 --> 00:12:47,220 Knowing that you than you normally do. Because 353 00:12:47,220 --> 00:12:49,299 that's the effect of the stress. Right? That's 354 00:12:49,299 --> 00:12:51,639 what happens. When your stress is up, 355 00:12:52,019 --> 00:12:54,580 your your immune system goes down and you 356 00:12:54,580 --> 00:12:57,059 start getting sick all the time. Another thing 357 00:12:57,059 --> 00:12:59,384 is, you know, not wanting to go out, 358 00:12:59,625 --> 00:13:01,644 not wanting to do things, withdrawing. 359 00:13:02,424 --> 00:13:04,264 And that withdrawal doesn't look the same for 360 00:13:04,264 --> 00:13:06,345 everybody. For some people, it's go stare at 361 00:13:06,345 --> 00:13:08,665 a screen or play a video game. And 362 00:13:08,665 --> 00:13:11,165 for some people, it's, you know they can 363 00:13:11,544 --> 00:13:13,625 this can sound crazy. Some people can withdraw 364 00:13:13,625 --> 00:13:15,070 by going and sitting in a bar every 365 00:13:15,070 --> 00:13:17,169 night and sitting in the same little corner 366 00:13:17,389 --> 00:13:18,850 and not talking to anybody. 367 00:13:19,309 --> 00:13:21,389 It's almost a form of self harm, and 368 00:13:21,389 --> 00:13:22,803 I hate to say that. Yeah. So much 369 00:13:22,803 --> 00:13:24,289 fun. It's it's an 370 00:13:24,590 --> 00:13:25,090 emotional, 371 00:13:25,710 --> 00:13:28,269 like, I'm gonna torture myself by watching other 372 00:13:28,269 --> 00:13:29,250 people have fun. 373 00:13:29,934 --> 00:13:31,774 Well, and I leave your cell phone. Come 374 00:13:31,774 --> 00:13:34,175 up. No. And as the holidays come up 375 00:13:34,175 --> 00:13:36,654 and we think about this, you know, one 376 00:13:36,654 --> 00:13:38,654 in eight to one in twelve, all the 377 00:13:38,654 --> 00:13:40,815 studies always have, you know, some variety in 378 00:13:40,815 --> 00:13:41,315 them. 379 00:13:41,615 --> 00:13:43,695 But as an example, are alcoholics in our 380 00:13:43,695 --> 00:13:46,269 country, adults? Lots. And we may or may 381 00:13:46,269 --> 00:13:48,210 not realize who is around us. 382 00:13:48,590 --> 00:13:51,470 But the people sometimes the loneliest people are 383 00:13:51,470 --> 00:13:53,230 the ones that are in a crowd or 384 00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:54,850 the ones that are at your own Thanksgiving 385 00:13:55,070 --> 00:13:57,389 table, and we don't know it because there's 386 00:13:57,389 --> 00:13:58,850 such a stigma around 387 00:13:59,195 --> 00:14:01,834 people saying I'm lonely. Help me. It sounds 388 00:14:01,834 --> 00:14:04,174 weak in this country to say that still. 389 00:14:04,394 --> 00:14:07,195 And so how do we encourage people that 390 00:14:07,195 --> 00:14:08,955 are sitting alone at the bar, Russ, and, 391 00:14:08,955 --> 00:14:10,154 you know, we see them at the bar, 392 00:14:10,154 --> 00:14:11,514 so they must be okay because they're not 393 00:14:11,514 --> 00:14:12,090 sitting at home. 394 00:14:13,290 --> 00:14:15,769 Yeah. I so I it seems it's it 395 00:14:15,769 --> 00:14:17,850 seems to me that when you when a 396 00:14:17,850 --> 00:14:20,090 when a loan someone who's feeling lonely does 397 00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:22,009 because because like we talked about, it is 398 00:14:22,009 --> 00:14:23,529 very hard to break out of it on 399 00:14:23,529 --> 00:14:25,149 your own. But when you do, 400 00:14:25,610 --> 00:14:27,450 really, that person is taking a pretty huge 401 00:14:27,450 --> 00:14:29,504 risk to come out and be and be 402 00:14:29,504 --> 00:14:32,565 among people again. It takes a gigantic risk 403 00:14:32,784 --> 00:14:34,544 and so and and it can go it 404 00:14:34,544 --> 00:14:36,945 can go wrong like pretty easy and especially 405 00:14:36,945 --> 00:14:39,504 with, you know, diminished social skills and connection 406 00:14:39,504 --> 00:14:41,120 skills among other people, we'll see them. Oh, 407 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:42,320 they're fine. If they're here, they're fine. I 408 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:44,080 don't need to worry about them. When we 409 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,080 look at other people by themselves, we ought 410 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,799 to say, oh, they're probably do they're probably 411 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:50,320 not doing as good as I think. It's 412 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:52,424 probably a pretty good assumption to make. Yeah. 413 00:14:52,504 --> 00:14:53,884 Oh, Tom. I I just 414 00:14:54,264 --> 00:14:55,784 I just wanna pause for a second and 415 00:14:55,784 --> 00:14:58,264 capture what you just said. Because, you know, 416 00:14:58,264 --> 00:14:59,945 as I look around at people in the 417 00:14:59,945 --> 00:15:01,784 grocery stores that are checking out and they 418 00:15:01,784 --> 00:15:03,384 got their headsets on or talking on the 419 00:15:03,384 --> 00:15:05,490 phone, and they're never looking at the the 420 00:15:05,490 --> 00:15:05,990 checkout 421 00:15:06,610 --> 00:15:08,389 person and talking with them and recognizing 422 00:15:09,009 --> 00:15:10,690 you know, people ask me about hope, and 423 00:15:10,690 --> 00:15:12,370 I look at it, and it's those small 424 00:15:12,370 --> 00:15:14,389 moments that all of us can control. 425 00:15:14,769 --> 00:15:16,610 You know, the person who is deathly lonely 426 00:15:16,610 --> 00:15:18,129 may not feel like and I say deathly 427 00:15:18,129 --> 00:15:19,875 in loose terms. I don't mean it that 428 00:15:19,875 --> 00:15:21,414 way, but really lonely, 429 00:15:21,715 --> 00:15:23,634 you know, may not have the courage to 430 00:15:23,634 --> 00:15:25,875 go out, and it becomes upon us to 431 00:15:25,875 --> 00:15:27,634 try to help them do that. But there 432 00:15:27,634 --> 00:15:30,054 are also moments every day in our lives 433 00:15:30,529 --> 00:15:32,929 where we can touch people simply by smiling 434 00:15:32,929 --> 00:15:35,009 as we bought bought by the security guard 435 00:15:35,009 --> 00:15:37,570 or the doorman at an apartment building or 436 00:15:37,570 --> 00:15:39,410 the folks checking us out in a in 437 00:15:39,410 --> 00:15:42,210 a large store, anything that might, to your 438 00:15:42,210 --> 00:15:44,850 point, change their lives forever. And we'll never 439 00:15:44,850 --> 00:15:47,475 know, But taking that moment can do that. 440 00:15:47,475 --> 00:15:49,554 And by the way, the most at risk 441 00:15:49,554 --> 00:15:52,115 for loneliness, just to introduce this, is not 442 00:15:52,115 --> 00:15:54,215 the elderly as a lot of people think, 443 00:15:54,835 --> 00:15:57,014 but between 18 and 34. 444 00:15:58,195 --> 00:16:01,600 Interesting. Yeah. So one thing I wanted to 445 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:02,100 ask 446 00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:03,459 is that 447 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:06,820 we have a lot of introvert 448 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,379 extrovert stuff in our field. 449 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,839 One of the reason I call this podcast 450 00:16:11,839 --> 00:16:12,500 The Hedge 451 00:16:12,865 --> 00:16:14,725 is because all the network engineers 452 00:16:15,184 --> 00:16:16,404 I know are like hedgehogs. 453 00:16:16,825 --> 00:16:17,325 I 454 00:16:17,745 --> 00:16:19,264 mean, it's it's it's a place to go 455 00:16:19,264 --> 00:16:21,264 and gather and talk. Right? That's the hedge. 456 00:16:21,264 --> 00:16:23,585 Right? You know, people talk at the hedge. 457 00:16:23,585 --> 00:16:25,940 But the other thing is is that it's 458 00:16:25,940 --> 00:16:28,660 a hedgehog because a lot of network engineers, 459 00:16:28,660 --> 00:16:31,160 you get close to them and they hiss 460 00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:33,620 and chatter their little teeth and curl up 461 00:16:33,620 --> 00:16:36,040 in a ball and stick their spines out 462 00:16:36,100 --> 00:16:38,500 and say go away. And we have a 463 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:40,600 we have a lot of introversion. 464 00:16:41,084 --> 00:16:42,865 So I wanna get your take on, like, 465 00:16:43,084 --> 00:16:45,904 is there a relationship between that introversion, 466 00:16:46,284 --> 00:16:46,784 extroversion? 467 00:16:47,164 --> 00:16:49,004 Because you can't change it. I know people, 468 00:16:49,004 --> 00:16:50,284 oh, I can check and be in it. 469 00:16:50,284 --> 00:16:52,284 No. You can't. I'm sorry. You either get 470 00:16:52,284 --> 00:16:54,570 your energy from other people or you don't. 471 00:16:55,049 --> 00:16:56,590 That's just the way you are, 472 00:16:57,129 --> 00:16:59,210 and you just have to deal with coping 473 00:16:59,210 --> 00:16:59,710 skills 474 00:17:00,330 --> 00:17:02,350 to do that. So do you think there's 475 00:17:02,490 --> 00:17:03,950 anything in that realm 476 00:17:04,329 --> 00:17:05,470 that might impact 477 00:17:06,170 --> 00:17:08,730 the amount of loneliness that people see or 478 00:17:08,730 --> 00:17:10,349 the way they react to it? 479 00:17:12,525 --> 00:17:14,125 How many Von is there? Do you all 480 00:17:14,125 --> 00:17:15,884 have thoughts? I'll weigh in, but I just 481 00:17:15,884 --> 00:17:18,365 wanna make sure that Yeah. We're all speaking 482 00:17:18,365 --> 00:17:20,684 of loneliness, so we're all engaged together on 483 00:17:20,684 --> 00:17:21,184 this. 484 00:17:22,285 --> 00:17:22,769 You know, 485 00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:25,349 I I often so I I think everybody, 486 00:17:25,570 --> 00:17:27,730 at least me, Tom, and Russ, all have 487 00:17:27,730 --> 00:17:29,029 degrees of introversion. 488 00:17:29,650 --> 00:17:31,029 Right? Like, and 489 00:17:31,330 --> 00:17:34,529 and I've often wondered if at the end 490 00:17:34,529 --> 00:17:36,315 of the because but for me, 491 00:17:37,194 --> 00:17:37,934 I enjoy 492 00:17:38,234 --> 00:17:40,575 deep conversation and deep connection 493 00:17:40,875 --> 00:17:42,654 in small groups. Yep. 494 00:17:43,355 --> 00:17:47,054 Right. I have often wondered if for extroverts, 495 00:17:47,514 --> 00:17:50,174 they don't get the same degree of connection 496 00:17:51,210 --> 00:17:53,769 because they flit around. Right? They they 497 00:17:54,490 --> 00:17:55,549 and maybe this is 498 00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:57,390 a harsh characterization. 499 00:17:58,089 --> 00:17:58,589 But, 500 00:17:59,049 --> 00:18:01,150 you know, I I most of the extroverts 501 00:18:01,369 --> 00:18:02,269 that I know, 502 00:18:03,335 --> 00:18:05,815 it's harder to have a deep conversation with 503 00:18:05,815 --> 00:18:06,954 them. And so 504 00:18:07,654 --> 00:18:09,255 I wonder if in some way where we 505 00:18:09,255 --> 00:18:11,674 think, well, maybe introverts are lonelier because, 506 00:18:13,494 --> 00:18:15,194 you know, they they they don't care 507 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,880 to engage with lots of people. But, you 508 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:19,799 know, I don't know. I'm not sure that 509 00:18:19,799 --> 00:18:22,059 that will be the case. I think extroverts 510 00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:25,500 can be lonely. They just don't seem it, 511 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:27,740 maybe. I don't know. 512 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:30,674 Yeah. I I my observation has been it. 513 00:18:30,674 --> 00:18:32,355 I don't know that it has exactly the 514 00:18:32,355 --> 00:18:33,095 same manifestations 515 00:18:33,394 --> 00:18:36,115 in both, introverts and extroverts, but I think 516 00:18:36,115 --> 00:18:38,515 it cuts just as deep in them. I 517 00:18:38,515 --> 00:18:40,934 think it is just as difficult emotionally. 518 00:18:42,194 --> 00:18:44,329 And I I think sometimes it's 519 00:18:44,710 --> 00:18:46,390 a lot harder if you're looking at someone 520 00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:48,490 and trying to help them, from the outside. 521 00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:50,789 It's a lot harder to sort of gauge 522 00:18:50,789 --> 00:18:52,390 how lonely an extrovert is, 523 00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:55,269 because their energy sort of covers up some 524 00:18:55,269 --> 00:18:55,769 things. 525 00:18:56,845 --> 00:18:58,765 And and I think we're also a little 526 00:18:58,765 --> 00:18:59,424 more prone 527 00:18:59,804 --> 00:19:01,884 to look at a an introvert and quote 528 00:19:01,884 --> 00:19:05,085 diagnose them as being lonely. And, you know, 529 00:19:05,085 --> 00:19:07,505 sometimes that's not what's going on at all. 530 00:19:07,964 --> 00:19:10,525 Although increasingly more people are being affected by 531 00:19:10,525 --> 00:19:12,420 it, but I but I've made more mistakes, 532 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,680 thinking it's loneliness with introverts than I have 533 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:16,340 with extroverts. 534 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:18,660 Interesting. 535 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,400 Yeah. What lovely observations. And I think, you 536 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,080 know, at least as we look at data, 537 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,845 it really boils down to each individual 538 00:19:26,244 --> 00:19:27,464 and what they need. 539 00:19:27,924 --> 00:19:30,005 And I I I will say that, Tom, 540 00:19:30,005 --> 00:19:31,625 I really as an extrovert, 541 00:19:32,484 --> 00:19:34,105 I really appreciate your observation 542 00:19:34,804 --> 00:19:37,525 because it it does matter. And, interestingly, of 543 00:19:37,525 --> 00:19:40,585 course, folks assume extra extroverts because they are 544 00:19:41,019 --> 00:19:43,180 generally more out there and seem to have 545 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:43,680 whatever. 546 00:19:44,619 --> 00:19:45,759 They can't be lonely. 547 00:19:46,539 --> 00:19:49,180 I am here to say, being extremely vulnerable 548 00:19:49,180 --> 00:19:52,079 as I say it, yeah. I was definitely 549 00:19:52,299 --> 00:19:55,625 lonely, very lonely, and no one noticed, you 550 00:19:55,625 --> 00:19:57,705 know, because I I don't put that persona 551 00:19:57,705 --> 00:19:58,205 on. 552 00:19:58,904 --> 00:20:00,985 And I think so as we look at 553 00:20:01,144 --> 00:20:02,904 and and I really appreciate what you said, 554 00:20:02,904 --> 00:20:05,884 Yvonne, about having those meaningful deep conversations. 555 00:20:06,904 --> 00:20:09,170 It is certainly possible. I I love having 556 00:20:09,170 --> 00:20:11,750 those deep conversations, and and I I, 557 00:20:12,769 --> 00:20:15,170 I I really beg for them almost, if 558 00:20:15,170 --> 00:20:16,609 you know what I mean. I set up 559 00:20:16,609 --> 00:20:19,890 opportunities to do it because they're exceedingly meaningful 560 00:20:19,890 --> 00:20:21,825 to me even as an extrovert. 561 00:20:22,125 --> 00:20:24,204 I'm not getting energy from it in the 562 00:20:24,204 --> 00:20:26,224 same way we define introvert and extrovert, 563 00:20:26,684 --> 00:20:29,325 but I'm getting meaning and feel seen and 564 00:20:29,325 --> 00:20:31,664 heard and cared for. So I think 565 00:20:32,125 --> 00:20:34,784 to a great extent, it's whatever an individual 566 00:20:35,085 --> 00:20:35,585 needs 567 00:20:35,890 --> 00:20:37,190 to fulfill that 568 00:20:37,569 --> 00:20:38,869 that need for them. 569 00:20:39,329 --> 00:20:40,690 But we do have to care for all. 570 00:20:40,690 --> 00:20:42,609 And here's the thing, you can't tell just 571 00:20:42,609 --> 00:20:44,869 by looking at somebody most of the time, 572 00:20:45,650 --> 00:20:47,509 which is why we also have to destigmatize 573 00:20:47,809 --> 00:20:49,924 it and ask the right questions, 574 00:20:50,625 --> 00:20:53,184 you know, and and move forward in helping 575 00:20:53,184 --> 00:20:55,365 each other figure this out some not another. 576 00:20:56,704 --> 00:20:58,644 What a great question. Yeah. Interesting. 577 00:20:59,424 --> 00:20:59,924 So, 578 00:21:00,750 --> 00:21:02,269 alright. So now we've talked a little bit 579 00:21:02,269 --> 00:21:03,250 about what it is, 580 00:21:03,950 --> 00:21:05,789 and we've talked a little bit about how 581 00:21:05,789 --> 00:21:07,630 to recognize it a little bit. I think 582 00:21:07,630 --> 00:21:09,630 there are other things that people could could 583 00:21:09,630 --> 00:21:12,269 clone on to know if they're feeling lonely 584 00:21:12,269 --> 00:21:15,250 because not everybody is deeply emotional, frankly, 585 00:21:15,765 --> 00:21:18,805 and particularly people who are and, again, this 586 00:21:18,805 --> 00:21:21,305 is another strange thing. I remember walking 587 00:21:22,005 --> 00:21:24,085 into a a Cisco office one day and 588 00:21:24,085 --> 00:21:26,644 I walked into the development department, and someone 589 00:21:26,644 --> 00:21:28,484 kind of where all the coders sit and 590 00:21:28,484 --> 00:21:29,545 somebody was like, 591 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:31,299 you know, 592 00:21:31,599 --> 00:21:33,140 if you want to just 593 00:21:33,679 --> 00:21:36,980 look at the range of the spectrum 594 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,179 of people who are on the spectrum, 595 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:43,440 you're probably looking at a bunch of either 596 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:45,859 high functioning or mid functioning sociopaths 597 00:21:46,204 --> 00:21:46,704 sitting 598 00:21:47,005 --> 00:21:49,585 in this darkened area writing code. 599 00:21:50,045 --> 00:21:50,704 You know? 600 00:21:51,724 --> 00:21:54,525 They're probably not wrong, honestly, just to be 601 00:21:54,525 --> 00:21:55,025 truthful. 602 00:21:55,404 --> 00:21:56,305 And so people 603 00:21:56,684 --> 00:21:58,684 in technology fields tend to not have the 604 00:21:58,684 --> 00:22:01,164 emotional tools to see, like as as Yvonne 605 00:22:01,164 --> 00:22:03,769 said, that they're even that they're even they 606 00:22:03,769 --> 00:22:05,690 don't have the vocabulary or the tools to 607 00:22:05,690 --> 00:22:07,390 understand. I am lonely. 608 00:22:07,930 --> 00:22:09,710 Like, they they can't connect that. 609 00:22:10,090 --> 00:22:10,590 So, 610 00:22:11,130 --> 00:22:13,070 but I'm also very curious about 611 00:22:13,450 --> 00:22:15,369 what do we do about it? We've talked 612 00:22:15,369 --> 00:22:17,070 a little bit about getting out. 613 00:22:17,674 --> 00:22:19,194 Sure. Get out of your shell. I'll tell 614 00:22:19,194 --> 00:22:20,795 you a story. When I when I designed 615 00:22:20,795 --> 00:22:22,734 the first house I designed for my kids, 616 00:22:23,035 --> 00:22:25,434 I designed it with I designed this for 617 00:22:25,434 --> 00:22:26,095 my family. 618 00:22:26,394 --> 00:22:28,654 I designed it with two big great rooms. 619 00:22:29,035 --> 00:22:29,670 One was, 620 00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:31,930 quote, unquote, the living room. 621 00:22:32,230 --> 00:22:34,809 The other was, quote, unquote, the computer room. 622 00:22:35,430 --> 00:22:35,930 And 623 00:22:36,309 --> 00:22:38,570 the kids' bedrooms were really small. 624 00:22:39,350 --> 00:22:41,350 And all through their lives until we moved 625 00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:43,785 out of that, they complained about those bedrooms. 626 00:22:44,164 --> 00:22:46,164 Oh, I wanna sit in my bed. Oh, 627 00:22:46,164 --> 00:22:48,164 I wanna be in my my bedroom is 628 00:22:48,164 --> 00:22:49,684 too small, dad. And I was always like, 629 00:22:49,684 --> 00:22:52,025 you don't get it. That's the point. 630 00:22:53,204 --> 00:22:56,904 The point is to create a physical space 631 00:22:57,309 --> 00:22:59,250 where if you're gonna sit on the computer 632 00:22:59,549 --> 00:23:02,130 or you're gonna be doing crafts or whatever, 633 00:23:02,509 --> 00:23:04,609 you have to get out of your bedroom 634 00:23:04,670 --> 00:23:06,369 and come into a common area 635 00:23:07,150 --> 00:23:10,015 and be with people to do it. Like, 636 00:23:10,015 --> 00:23:12,755 that was intentional. That was not an unintentional 637 00:23:12,974 --> 00:23:13,474 thing. 638 00:23:13,934 --> 00:23:14,595 And so 639 00:23:15,054 --> 00:23:16,494 that's just one of those things that I, 640 00:23:16,494 --> 00:23:18,095 you know, think about when I think about 641 00:23:18,095 --> 00:23:19,454 what do you do to get out of 642 00:23:19,454 --> 00:23:19,954 this. 643 00:23:20,894 --> 00:23:23,615 I don't know. Any other thoughts, Yvonne, Tom, 644 00:23:23,615 --> 00:23:24,595 Lucy, anything? 645 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,400 I had a scenario that happened at work 646 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:30,360 a few years ago, 647 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:31,500 and and, 648 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,960 a very capable person had joined our team 649 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:37,980 and when they first started, they were, 650 00:23:38,615 --> 00:23:40,615 you know, they engage in conversation and team 651 00:23:40,615 --> 00:23:42,455 meetings and things like that. And I just 652 00:23:42,455 --> 00:23:43,674 noticed one day, 653 00:23:44,455 --> 00:23:46,855 he's not said much lately. And so I 654 00:23:46,855 --> 00:23:49,275 just pinged him and said, hey. 655 00:23:49,575 --> 00:23:52,075 You've been quiet lately. How's it going? 656 00:23:52,809 --> 00:23:55,130 And we talked a couple days later and 657 00:23:55,130 --> 00:23:57,289 I, at the time, did not think anything 658 00:23:57,289 --> 00:23:58,509 of it. Right. 659 00:23:59,210 --> 00:24:02,349 But then like a year or two later, 660 00:24:03,210 --> 00:24:05,549 he and I were having our regular sync. 661 00:24:05,765 --> 00:24:08,805 And he mentioned that moment to me and 662 00:24:08,805 --> 00:24:10,664 how he felt noticed 663 00:24:11,445 --> 00:24:14,825 because I commented that he had gotten quiet. 664 00:24:15,605 --> 00:24:16,105 And 665 00:24:16,485 --> 00:24:16,985 so 666 00:24:17,365 --> 00:24:19,684 he had stuff going on that I had 667 00:24:19,684 --> 00:24:20,339 no idea 668 00:24:20,819 --> 00:24:22,679 about. And I think that 669 00:24:23,059 --> 00:24:24,039 that noticing 670 00:24:24,419 --> 00:24:26,759 and just offering that connection 671 00:24:27,619 --> 00:24:30,740 is so important. And it it was low 672 00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:31,240 effort. 673 00:24:32,259 --> 00:24:34,184 It was it was low effort. You know, 674 00:24:34,184 --> 00:24:35,865 it's not like I was like, oh, I'm 675 00:24:35,865 --> 00:24:37,804 gonna go out and be sure nobody's lonely. 676 00:24:38,265 --> 00:24:40,265 It was just, hey. Haven't heard from this 677 00:24:40,265 --> 00:24:41,784 guy in a while. I'm gonna see how 678 00:24:41,784 --> 00:24:44,204 he's doing. And it really is 679 00:24:44,505 --> 00:24:45,884 that can be 680 00:24:46,345 --> 00:24:47,164 that simple. 681 00:24:48,019 --> 00:24:50,019 I think a a great example of that 682 00:24:50,019 --> 00:24:50,339 is, 683 00:24:51,059 --> 00:24:53,140 learning someone's name and and using it when 684 00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:54,039 you talk to them. 685 00:24:54,500 --> 00:24:56,500 It's such a small and simple thing, but 686 00:24:56,500 --> 00:24:58,659 when you I've observed this myself. When you 687 00:24:58,659 --> 00:25:00,500 used to call someone by their name after 688 00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:01,480 having met them, 689 00:25:02,474 --> 00:25:04,394 it's it's powerful. I mean, it's powerful even 690 00:25:04,394 --> 00:25:06,394 in the conversation when you're learning their name. 691 00:25:06,394 --> 00:25:08,154 But when you say their name, the next 692 00:25:08,154 --> 00:25:09,054 time you see them, 693 00:25:10,154 --> 00:25:12,075 that is I don't know why, but it 694 00:25:12,075 --> 00:25:14,394 seems seems to have outsized impact that that 695 00:25:14,394 --> 00:25:15,054 one thing. 696 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,919 You know, it's interesting, Yvonne, and, Tom, both 697 00:25:18,919 --> 00:25:21,099 of you, clearly, you're right on with some 698 00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:23,899 simple low hanging fruit things we can all 699 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,359 just be intentional about. And I think, you 700 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,200 know, one of my goals in this project 701 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,515 and what we're doing right now is helping 702 00:25:30,515 --> 00:25:33,414 folks really understand the importance of doing it 703 00:25:33,474 --> 00:25:35,875 and how simple and free it is to 704 00:25:35,875 --> 00:25:38,194 actually do these things. But, you know, an 705 00:25:38,194 --> 00:25:40,914 example another one is, like, we measure our 706 00:25:40,914 --> 00:25:43,154 success in social media by how many likes 707 00:25:43,154 --> 00:25:45,509 we have. Mhmm. One of the actual measures 708 00:25:45,509 --> 00:25:47,669 we should be measuring is does anybody notice 709 00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:50,250 when I'm no longer there on social media? 710 00:25:51,109 --> 00:25:53,029 That's the kind of thing, you know, you 711 00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:55,190 notice, oh, a 100 people like this. Well, 712 00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:57,029 yeah, but Russ didn't comment for the last 713 00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:59,434 two weeks. I Wonder if he's doing okay. 714 00:25:59,734 --> 00:26:00,634 That connection, 715 00:26:01,255 --> 00:26:02,474 that being seen, 716 00:26:02,775 --> 00:26:05,355 and how we measure that is so important. 717 00:26:05,654 --> 00:26:07,575 And I think we can look at the 718 00:26:07,575 --> 00:26:10,154 individual level like this and thinking with intention. 719 00:26:10,454 --> 00:26:12,535 I was talking with a a college president 720 00:26:12,535 --> 00:26:14,630 the other day about painting, doing some painting 721 00:26:14,630 --> 00:26:17,109 stuff, and suggested and we'd just been talking 722 00:26:17,109 --> 00:26:18,650 about loneliness and connections 723 00:26:19,269 --> 00:26:20,710 when we're doing painting. And he said and 724 00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:21,829 I said, so why don't you just have 725 00:26:21,829 --> 00:26:23,669 an alumni day and bring everybody out there 726 00:26:23,669 --> 00:26:25,829 and, you know, bring community together, see what 727 00:26:25,829 --> 00:26:27,784 you can do? And he saw he stopped 728 00:26:27,784 --> 00:26:29,865 and he thought and he said, yeah. And 729 00:26:29,865 --> 00:26:31,865 we could actually, instead of having a bucket 730 00:26:31,865 --> 00:26:34,444 for everybody, have one bucket for five people. 731 00:26:35,224 --> 00:26:37,865 So they actually have to share and talk 732 00:26:37,865 --> 00:26:39,839 with one another. And then we started talking. 733 00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:42,000 Well, what if we let them choose the 734 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,079 residence hall they wanted to paint, and they 735 00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:45,759 could choose the one that they enjoyed the 736 00:26:45,759 --> 00:26:47,440 most? And then they talk about their best 737 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,519 memories as they're doing that. All of a 738 00:26:49,519 --> 00:26:52,019 sudden, all it is is bringing intentionality 739 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,380 to this at the at the individual level 740 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,414 and how we think to rush your point 741 00:26:57,414 --> 00:26:59,575 about designing a family room and making the 742 00:26:59,575 --> 00:27:00,855 room so small, I didn't even wanna be 743 00:27:00,855 --> 00:27:02,794 in there. Of course not. It's intentional. 744 00:27:03,335 --> 00:27:05,434 But the other piece of this are systems. 745 00:27:06,054 --> 00:27:07,414 And I I think, you know, when I 746 00:27:07,414 --> 00:27:09,414 think about network systems and what we can 747 00:27:09,414 --> 00:27:09,914 do, 748 00:27:10,740 --> 00:27:13,140 how can we create better systems as a 749 00:27:13,140 --> 00:27:16,119 community and as a country to encourage this? 750 00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:18,359 How can we design towns that are walkable? 751 00:27:18,579 --> 00:27:21,859 How can we design buildings that encourage community 752 00:27:21,859 --> 00:27:24,259 gatherings and what they look like? What does 753 00:27:24,259 --> 00:27:27,214 that look like? So our architects, our city 754 00:27:27,595 --> 00:27:30,734 planners, our teachers, how can they build in 755 00:27:30,954 --> 00:27:31,454 empathy 756 00:27:31,755 --> 00:27:34,234 training in the classroom and awareness and things 757 00:27:34,234 --> 00:27:35,835 like that? So what are we doing with 758 00:27:35,835 --> 00:27:37,835 systems too? So it's a both and, Russ. 759 00:27:37,835 --> 00:27:39,794 I'm just I realized I'm introducing something Yeah. 760 00:27:39,914 --> 00:27:42,369 In addition here. Russ. But it's visual and 761 00:27:42,369 --> 00:27:44,609 big picture, I think. Yvonne, I yeah. You're 762 00:27:44,609 --> 00:27:45,429 leaning in. 763 00:27:45,730 --> 00:27:48,769 Oh, well no. So one of the so 764 00:27:48,769 --> 00:27:51,009 I've been a Googler for five years, and 765 00:27:51,009 --> 00:27:53,569 one of the things that really Which means 766 00:27:53,569 --> 00:27:54,769 which means, by the way, if you don't 767 00:27:54,769 --> 00:27:56,744 know what this means, it means she only 768 00:27:56,744 --> 00:27:58,684 searches for things. She's a Googler. 769 00:28:00,025 --> 00:28:02,825 Okay. To that case for us. Okay. No. 770 00:28:03,065 --> 00:28:05,465 But one of the things that I really 771 00:28:05,465 --> 00:28:05,965 learned 772 00:28:06,424 --> 00:28:08,910 and and became really real to me is 773 00:28:09,070 --> 00:28:09,809 when I started visiting 774 00:28:10,269 --> 00:28:11,090 our offices 775 00:28:12,190 --> 00:28:14,450 is how much our architecture 776 00:28:14,830 --> 00:28:17,549 and the space around us influences how we 777 00:28:17,549 --> 00:28:19,630 see the world. Like, big open spaces make 778 00:28:19,630 --> 00:28:21,470 us more creative. And I think one of 779 00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:24,654 the one of the really interesting things when 780 00:28:24,654 --> 00:28:27,315 you go to a Google office, for example, 781 00:28:27,454 --> 00:28:30,174 is they're they're designed to have big open 782 00:28:30,174 --> 00:28:32,815 meeting spaces. There are places to sit and 783 00:28:32,815 --> 00:28:35,140 talk and convene and collaborate. 784 00:28:35,759 --> 00:28:38,820 And sure, there are quiet places to work, 785 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:40,100 but they're also 786 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:40,980 intentionally 787 00:28:41,519 --> 00:28:42,019 designed 788 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,820 for people to gather and connect. 789 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:45,620 And, 790 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:47,380 and and I think 791 00:28:48,355 --> 00:28:51,654 sometimes we've gotten to either clinical 792 00:28:52,115 --> 00:28:52,595 or, 793 00:28:53,075 --> 00:28:54,855 we we try to overoptimize 794 00:28:55,394 --> 00:28:57,394 every little inch of space and make use 795 00:28:57,394 --> 00:28:58,054 of it 796 00:28:58,434 --> 00:28:59,414 instead of 797 00:28:59,875 --> 00:29:01,095 thinking about 798 00:29:03,309 --> 00:29:04,289 how we construct. 799 00:29:04,750 --> 00:29:06,909 A a coworker of mine said this quote 800 00:29:06,909 --> 00:29:08,589 a while back. He says, you know, first 801 00:29:09,150 --> 00:29:11,309 I think it maybe Churchill. I can't remember. 802 00:29:11,309 --> 00:29:12,429 I have to look up who said it. 803 00:29:12,429 --> 00:29:14,669 But but first, we build our building we 804 00:29:14,669 --> 00:29:16,829 make our buildings, and then our buildings make 805 00:29:16,829 --> 00:29:19,524 us. That's the joke. And so yep. So 806 00:29:19,524 --> 00:29:20,184 the the 807 00:29:20,565 --> 00:29:21,304 the architecture 808 00:29:21,764 --> 00:29:22,984 in which we live 809 00:29:23,524 --> 00:29:25,464 influences how we see the world, 810 00:29:26,005 --> 00:29:27,464 and we can choose that. 811 00:29:28,644 --> 00:29:31,384 And it's and and thinking about it, gathering 812 00:29:31,444 --> 00:29:33,950 spaces, all those things can be so important. 813 00:29:34,009 --> 00:29:35,950 And I think, you know, 814 00:29:36,409 --> 00:29:37,150 in suburbia, 815 00:29:37,609 --> 00:29:39,049 like, we've kind of lost that, right, because 816 00:29:39,049 --> 00:29:41,130 everybody rides in the car, they, you know, 817 00:29:41,130 --> 00:29:43,150 they have their individual homes, their individual 818 00:29:44,169 --> 00:29:45,789 fences and yards, and, 819 00:29:46,924 --> 00:29:49,644 yeah, there aren't the communal spaces that that 820 00:29:49,644 --> 00:29:52,284 we've had in the past. Yeah. Or the 821 00:29:52,284 --> 00:29:55,005 community. I mean, those individual homes were supposed 822 00:29:55,005 --> 00:29:56,065 to contain families, 823 00:29:56,924 --> 00:29:59,005 and those fences were, you know, meant to 824 00:29:59,005 --> 00:30:00,144 make for good neighbors 825 00:30:00,529 --> 00:30:03,109 because you still have everybody working together 826 00:30:03,730 --> 00:30:05,490 on the other side of the house, on 827 00:30:05,490 --> 00:30:06,470 the front yard. 828 00:30:07,009 --> 00:30:08,710 We don't do any of that anymore. 829 00:30:09,009 --> 00:30:10,690 Like, we put the fences in the front 830 00:30:10,690 --> 00:30:12,710 yards, and we don't have backyards at all. 831 00:30:13,684 --> 00:30:15,945 That's pretty much what it feels like sometimes. 832 00:30:17,684 --> 00:30:19,684 And this is not guys, this is not 833 00:30:19,684 --> 00:30:22,404 a would feel what we're talking about now, 834 00:30:22,404 --> 00:30:24,724 just to make sure that everybody listening is 835 00:30:24,724 --> 00:30:26,940 the reality around this stuff, This is not, 836 00:30:26,940 --> 00:30:28,859 like, touchy feely, and we all just need 837 00:30:28,859 --> 00:30:30,779 to feel good and, you know, sorry we're 838 00:30:30,779 --> 00:30:33,099 not in the backyards anymore. This is this 839 00:30:33,099 --> 00:30:35,839 is a a public health crisis that 840 00:30:36,299 --> 00:30:36,960 arms us 841 00:30:37,259 --> 00:30:40,079 physically as well as emotionally in every way. 842 00:30:40,299 --> 00:30:42,304 And at some point in time, as humans, 843 00:30:42,365 --> 00:30:43,744 we're wired for connection. 844 00:30:44,125 --> 00:30:45,804 You know, we we act like we're not 845 00:30:45,804 --> 00:30:47,744 animals, and yet, clearly, we are. 846 00:30:48,444 --> 00:30:51,164 And our species is wired for connection from 847 00:30:51,164 --> 00:30:53,005 the beginning to to help each other, to 848 00:30:53,005 --> 00:30:54,544 support each other to survive. 849 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,519 And so it is a critical moment in 850 00:30:57,519 --> 00:31:00,400 our time that we recognize this and begin 851 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,380 to put systems and individual caring into place 852 00:31:03,599 --> 00:31:06,000 that brings us back. The paradox is we're 853 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,480 the most connected we've ever been and the 854 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,444 least connected we may have ever been simultaneously, 855 00:31:11,984 --> 00:31:13,664 which is an interesting way to think about 856 00:31:13,664 --> 00:31:16,065 this, I think. Yeah. I think partly because 857 00:31:16,065 --> 00:31:18,144 the way we connect today over social media 858 00:31:18,144 --> 00:31:18,804 in particular 859 00:31:19,904 --> 00:31:23,284 is very much an invitation to compare yourself. 860 00:31:24,650 --> 00:31:26,029 And that that is 861 00:31:26,410 --> 00:31:28,089 I mean, as I as I say, you 862 00:31:28,089 --> 00:31:29,369 know, it's too it's 863 00:31:30,490 --> 00:31:33,690 every media type this is going back to 864 00:31:33,849 --> 00:31:36,109 I can't remember this. Anyway, this goes back 865 00:31:36,250 --> 00:31:38,109 to an old media theory system 866 00:31:38,565 --> 00:31:39,065 where 867 00:31:39,444 --> 00:31:41,144 every media type has a resonance, 868 00:31:41,605 --> 00:31:43,304 and the resonance of writing 869 00:31:44,005 --> 00:31:46,664 is information transfer and narrative. 870 00:31:47,284 --> 00:31:48,664 The resonance of television 871 00:31:49,365 --> 00:31:50,105 is entertainment. 872 00:31:50,724 --> 00:31:52,724 This is why people say, oh, you could 873 00:31:52,724 --> 00:31:54,799 learn Greek on the television. No. 874 00:31:55,100 --> 00:31:55,920 Because it's 875 00:31:56,539 --> 00:31:57,759 television is entertainment. 876 00:31:58,380 --> 00:32:00,059 And and and no matter what you do, 877 00:32:00,059 --> 00:32:01,820 it's gonna turn in you can take the 878 00:32:01,820 --> 00:32:03,660 most sober preacher in the world or the 879 00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:05,980 best Greek teacher in the world. The only 880 00:32:05,980 --> 00:32:07,820 way they're gonna survive on television is to 881 00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:08,320 entertain 882 00:32:08,674 --> 00:32:10,454 because that's the that's just 883 00:32:10,835 --> 00:32:12,294 the way the medium works. 884 00:32:12,595 --> 00:32:15,394 To me, the medium of social media is 885 00:32:15,394 --> 00:32:15,894 about, 886 00:32:16,755 --> 00:32:17,894 is about performance. 887 00:32:18,275 --> 00:32:20,375 We go into social media to perform 888 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,019 and to compare, 889 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,220 and that, I think, is the real danger 890 00:32:25,759 --> 00:32:28,259 of the way the modern world 891 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,119 connects, so to speak. I'm putting up air 892 00:32:31,119 --> 00:32:33,779 quotes for people who can't see me. Connects. 893 00:32:33,839 --> 00:32:36,304 It's not really connection most of the time. 894 00:32:37,244 --> 00:32:39,244 So, anyway, sorry. That was just, like, my 895 00:32:39,244 --> 00:32:41,244 little aside. It's funny you would say that 896 00:32:41,244 --> 00:32:44,144 the difference in connection and connect. Yeah. 897 00:32:44,684 --> 00:32:47,005 I just moderated a session in Las Vegas 898 00:32:47,005 --> 00:32:49,024 a couple weeks ago at HealthUSA 899 00:32:49,484 --> 00:32:51,390 twenty twenty five. And there were a lot 900 00:32:51,390 --> 00:32:53,230 of people in the audience, but there were 901 00:32:53,230 --> 00:32:56,049 four pretty smart people on the stage too. 902 00:32:56,350 --> 00:32:58,750 And as we began, the the topic was 903 00:32:58,750 --> 00:33:01,250 authentic connection in an artificial world. 904 00:33:01,950 --> 00:33:04,590 And we were kind of bantering back and 905 00:33:04,590 --> 00:33:06,955 forth this concept of the social media 906 00:33:07,414 --> 00:33:09,735 really connect, or is it truly a form 907 00:33:09,735 --> 00:33:10,475 of communication? 908 00:33:11,015 --> 00:33:12,535 And also going all the way now to 909 00:33:12,535 --> 00:33:14,775 the bots, the companion bots, and your best 910 00:33:14,775 --> 00:33:17,255 friend is Sarah the bot, and what does 911 00:33:17,255 --> 00:33:19,195 that look like and all the ramifications 912 00:33:19,575 --> 00:33:21,369 around that, which is a different path than 913 00:33:21,369 --> 00:33:23,609 we are now. But it's interesting to think 914 00:33:23,609 --> 00:33:25,849 about the impact that is making and is 915 00:33:25,849 --> 00:33:27,690 going to make in the future. Of the 916 00:33:27,690 --> 00:33:30,349 12,000 people that were attending this conference, 917 00:33:30,650 --> 00:33:32,890 I bet a thousand of them are working 918 00:33:32,890 --> 00:33:35,355 on something having to do with technology Yeah. 919 00:33:35,595 --> 00:33:36,815 And bringing people together. 920 00:33:37,115 --> 00:33:38,174 Yep. It's interesting. 921 00:33:38,634 --> 00:33:39,515 I would love, 922 00:33:40,234 --> 00:33:42,154 one thing I would love to touch on 923 00:33:42,154 --> 00:33:44,075 is, you know, I really believe in order 924 00:33:44,075 --> 00:33:46,075 to truly connect, there has to be a 925 00:33:46,075 --> 00:33:47,054 degree of vulnerability. 926 00:33:47,994 --> 00:33:49,914 In other words, you have to risk a 927 00:33:49,914 --> 00:33:52,819 little bit to connect with another person. And 928 00:33:52,819 --> 00:33:54,099 I I thought of this as Russ was 929 00:33:54,099 --> 00:33:56,659 talking about social media because you can put 930 00:33:56,659 --> 00:33:58,679 exactly what you want on social media, 931 00:33:58,980 --> 00:34:00,659 show the parts of you that you want 932 00:34:00,659 --> 00:34:01,640 people to see, 933 00:34:02,019 --> 00:34:03,765 hide the parts that you don't want people 934 00:34:03,765 --> 00:34:04,265 to 935 00:34:04,565 --> 00:34:07,384 see. And and that can be, 936 00:34:10,164 --> 00:34:12,025 you can exclude any vulnerability, 937 00:34:12,405 --> 00:34:14,265 and you can even feign vulnerability. 938 00:34:15,445 --> 00:34:17,224 I'd love to hear your thoughts 939 00:34:17,605 --> 00:34:18,105 on 940 00:34:19,630 --> 00:34:22,190 the importance of vulnerability when it comes to 941 00:34:22,190 --> 00:34:24,449 that connection and battling loneliness, 942 00:34:24,750 --> 00:34:25,250 and 943 00:34:25,710 --> 00:34:28,909 how to manage that if vulnerability is really 944 00:34:28,909 --> 00:34:30,210 scary for folks. 945 00:34:31,565 --> 00:34:33,885 Vulnerability is really scary for everybody, I think. 946 00:34:33,885 --> 00:34:34,385 Yes. 947 00:34:34,845 --> 00:34:36,684 Yeah. I'm a big Brene Brown fan, and, 948 00:34:36,684 --> 00:34:38,445 of course, she if you happen to be 949 00:34:38,445 --> 00:34:40,445 a Brene Brown fan, you would know. She 950 00:34:40,445 --> 00:34:42,864 writes a lot about both shame and vulnerability 951 00:34:43,085 --> 00:34:45,325 and how how they hold us back from 952 00:34:45,325 --> 00:34:46,545 being the, often, 953 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,000 the, most daring people that we might be 954 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,639 able to be, it is critical. Clearly, one 955 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:53,719 of the things that sets apart you and 956 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,319 I actually getting to know each other in 957 00:34:55,319 --> 00:34:58,039 reality, which we are beginning to communicate this 958 00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:01,179 way, but or the five senses as well 959 00:35:01,319 --> 00:35:03,715 because we can hug one another when we're 960 00:35:03,715 --> 00:35:05,715 being vulnerable and and say I care about 961 00:35:05,715 --> 00:35:08,034 you and thank you for sharing that. We 962 00:35:08,034 --> 00:35:10,514 can meet eyes, we smell, we we feel, 963 00:35:10,514 --> 00:35:13,795 all those things. That's missing from what we're 964 00:35:13,795 --> 00:35:15,235 doing right now. We can see each other 965 00:35:15,235 --> 00:35:16,994 and hear each other, but we're missing the 966 00:35:16,994 --> 00:35:17,735 other senses. 967 00:35:18,090 --> 00:35:18,989 And that vulnerability 968 00:35:19,289 --> 00:35:21,390 is critical. Bilateral vulnerability 969 00:35:21,849 --> 00:35:25,150 is critical clearly for creating meaningful authentic connections. 970 00:35:26,329 --> 00:35:28,090 I I was not very vulnerable as a 971 00:35:28,090 --> 00:35:30,110 human for most of my life. 972 00:35:30,594 --> 00:35:32,914 I just I just didn't listen to everybody 973 00:35:32,914 --> 00:35:36,275 else. I didn't share mine. And only recently 974 00:35:36,275 --> 00:35:38,275 am I, I think, at least, beginning to 975 00:35:38,275 --> 00:35:40,835 learn how to be more that way. It's 976 00:35:40,835 --> 00:35:42,914 not easy, but it is the way to 977 00:35:42,914 --> 00:35:43,414 create 978 00:35:43,989 --> 00:35:45,050 authentic relationships. 979 00:35:45,349 --> 00:35:47,829 You're so right. Until we do that because 980 00:35:47,829 --> 00:35:49,110 it's trust at the end of the day, 981 00:35:49,110 --> 00:35:51,590 isn't it? And as people trust us or 982 00:35:51,590 --> 00:35:53,829 not based on how willing we are to 983 00:35:53,829 --> 00:35:55,530 be authentic with them, I think. 984 00:35:56,434 --> 00:35:57,014 For sure. 985 00:35:57,954 --> 00:35:58,454 Yeah. 986 00:35:59,554 --> 00:36:01,234 Yeah. What do you think, though, Yvonne? You 987 00:36:01,234 --> 00:36:02,215 brought up vulnerability. 988 00:36:02,914 --> 00:36:03,734 There's something 989 00:36:04,114 --> 00:36:06,135 beyond that for you that you're thinking? 990 00:36:06,434 --> 00:36:08,434 I you know, I I just, 991 00:36:11,730 --> 00:36:14,530 I have seen so many folks who who 992 00:36:14,530 --> 00:36:15,030 just 993 00:36:16,050 --> 00:36:17,809 struggle to let the wall down. Like, there's 994 00:36:17,809 --> 00:36:19,269 a sense of self protectiveness. 995 00:36:20,050 --> 00:36:20,550 And 996 00:36:20,849 --> 00:36:23,030 I think often what we may not realize 997 00:36:23,489 --> 00:36:24,469 is, like, 998 00:36:26,625 --> 00:36:28,565 there's risk and and 999 00:36:28,945 --> 00:36:31,664 vulnerability and of being hurt. Yeah. There's always 1000 00:36:31,664 --> 00:36:32,405 that risk. 1001 00:36:33,505 --> 00:36:35,925 But the consequence of not doing it 1002 00:36:36,304 --> 00:36:38,019 doesn't mean you avoid pain either. You experience 1003 00:36:38,019 --> 00:36:39,525 the pain of loneliness. So you 1004 00:36:40,679 --> 00:36:43,011 pain of loneliness. So you you have to 1005 00:36:43,011 --> 00:36:45,239 choose, you know, whether you're gonna risk the 1006 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,960 vulnerability with a positive outcome or you're just 1007 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:49,260 gonna pull back, 1008 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:51,900 but then you run the risk 1009 00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:55,394 of loneliness. And certainly, if you're never vulnerable 1010 00:36:55,394 --> 00:36:57,894 or never connect, you will experience loneliness. 1011 00:36:58,195 --> 00:36:59,175 Right? So, 1012 00:36:59,795 --> 00:37:00,535 I don't 1013 00:37:01,155 --> 00:37:02,375 I don't think we 1014 00:37:02,755 --> 00:37:05,235 we frame it that way. And so the 1015 00:37:05,235 --> 00:37:05,735 vulnerability 1016 00:37:06,035 --> 00:37:08,135 seems way scarier to us, 1017 00:37:08,675 --> 00:37:09,735 but it actually 1018 00:37:10,329 --> 00:37:13,309 is not the worst outcome. The worst outcome 1019 00:37:13,690 --> 00:37:15,150 is that we never connect. 1020 00:37:16,329 --> 00:37:18,170 Oh, that's so wise. And we don't we 1021 00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:20,589 don't teach that. We teach be perfect. 1022 00:37:20,969 --> 00:37:23,625 You know? Don't share your flaws because somebody 1023 00:37:23,625 --> 00:37:25,385 might not like you or you might be 1024 00:37:25,385 --> 00:37:27,144 less than. And it goes back to something 1025 00:37:27,144 --> 00:37:28,905 you said, Tom, too, and all of you 1026 00:37:28,905 --> 00:37:31,385 have said about social media and, you know, 1027 00:37:31,385 --> 00:37:33,785 how we can create. You said too, Yvonne. 1028 00:37:33,785 --> 00:37:34,985 You know, you can create what you want 1029 00:37:34,985 --> 00:37:36,105 to on there, and you don't have to 1030 00:37:36,105 --> 00:37:36,684 be vulnerable. 1031 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,559 And we don't because it's uncomfortable, and we 1032 00:37:39,559 --> 00:37:41,239 don't know how to do that. We're scared 1033 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,559 folks will not like us anymore Yeah. Or 1034 00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:45,559 leave or will look weak or any of 1035 00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:47,640 those things. And That's awesome. The bravest and 1036 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,800 the most vulnerable is what say is Yeah. 1037 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:50,680 Sorry about that. So 1038 00:37:51,454 --> 00:37:53,215 yeah. And in fact, part of the problem 1039 00:37:53,215 --> 00:37:56,034 is you create this persona on social media. 1040 00:37:56,574 --> 00:37:59,454 Right? Yeah. But that's not really on social 1041 00:37:59,454 --> 00:37:59,954 media. 1042 00:38:00,414 --> 00:38:02,034 It's not it's what they call anonymous. 1043 00:38:02,414 --> 00:38:04,994 It actually creeps into your real life 1044 00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:06,699 because you gain 1045 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:07,900 acceptance 1046 00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:10,139 and you gain attention 1047 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,339 by putting that persona on social media. 1048 00:38:13,799 --> 00:38:15,739 There is no way for you psychologically 1049 00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:17,420 to contain that 1050 00:38:18,474 --> 00:38:21,135 personality that you've created, that identity 1051 00:38:21,914 --> 00:38:23,054 on social media. 1052 00:38:23,755 --> 00:38:25,695 You become that person, 1053 00:38:26,234 --> 00:38:28,394 and it doesn't matter whether you intend to 1054 00:38:28,394 --> 00:38:29,054 or not. 1055 00:38:29,355 --> 00:38:30,750 It's what happens. 1056 00:38:31,289 --> 00:38:32,910 So you put this big 1057 00:38:33,289 --> 00:38:35,309 shell up of all these great things, 1058 00:38:35,849 --> 00:38:37,690 highlight reels of your life. There's a paper 1059 00:38:37,690 --> 00:38:40,410 out there called highlight reels. And you put 1060 00:38:40,410 --> 00:38:42,170 this whole thing this whole highlight reel out 1061 00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:44,570 there, and then in real life, you sit 1062 00:38:44,570 --> 00:38:46,534 there and you go, well, but if I'm 1063 00:38:46,534 --> 00:38:49,114 not those highlight reels when I'm in person 1064 00:38:49,574 --> 00:38:52,614 with my family at Thanksgiving or Christmas or 1065 00:38:52,614 --> 00:38:54,154 whatever it is you do, 1066 00:38:54,855 --> 00:38:55,674 I'm not 1067 00:38:56,054 --> 00:38:57,815 gonna get the kind of attention I do 1068 00:38:57,815 --> 00:38:58,795 on social media. 1069 00:38:59,335 --> 00:39:01,400 I'm not gonna get that kind of positive 1070 00:39:01,460 --> 00:39:01,960 feedback, 1071 00:39:02,579 --> 00:39:04,679 and then you try to become that person. 1072 00:39:05,219 --> 00:39:06,980 It it's like we have this idea that 1073 00:39:06,980 --> 00:39:09,319 we can separate that social media personality 1074 00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:12,819 and and, like, compartmentalize it and close the 1075 00:39:12,819 --> 00:39:15,164 door on it, and you can't. You just 1076 00:39:15,324 --> 00:39:16,385 you you just can't. 1077 00:39:17,164 --> 00:39:18,525 So, anyway, another 1078 00:39:19,644 --> 00:39:21,324 and I I know we're getting close, but 1079 00:39:21,324 --> 00:39:23,324 I just wanna open one more door if 1080 00:39:23,324 --> 00:39:25,164 it's okay with you guys. Because I'm I'm 1081 00:39:25,164 --> 00:39:27,085 looking at my buddy my new buddies, Russ 1082 00:39:27,085 --> 00:39:27,744 and Tom. 1083 00:39:28,605 --> 00:39:31,050 I I you know, there's data out there 1084 00:39:31,210 --> 00:39:32,829 that makes you wonder about, 1085 00:39:33,530 --> 00:39:34,429 gender differences 1086 00:39:35,289 --> 00:39:36,030 and loneliness 1087 00:39:36,410 --> 00:39:39,050 and how we express that and what we 1088 00:39:39,050 --> 00:39:41,070 need and how we're raised 1089 00:39:41,449 --> 00:39:43,449 and all of those things. And I with 1090 00:39:43,449 --> 00:39:45,050 with if it's okay with you all, and 1091 00:39:45,050 --> 00:39:47,005 if it's not, that's fine too. But I 1092 00:39:47,005 --> 00:39:48,525 just wanna put this out there. Do you 1093 00:39:48,525 --> 00:39:50,144 all have any thoughts about 1094 00:39:50,525 --> 00:39:52,925 that perhaps and there are books out there, 1095 00:39:52,925 --> 00:39:55,085 all kinds of studies too about this, but 1096 00:39:55,085 --> 00:39:57,885 perhaps differences in in gender and how you 1097 00:39:57,885 --> 00:39:59,565 all might have been raised or how you 1098 00:39:59,565 --> 00:40:00,704 see the world socially 1099 00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:02,950 that might be different and make it even 1100 00:40:02,950 --> 00:40:04,570 more of a challenge sometimes 1101 00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:05,849 for 1102 00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:07,369 for men than women. 1103 00:40:07,989 --> 00:40:09,670 Yeah. I think I think in general, men 1104 00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:12,550 are this is very broad generalization. Men are 1105 00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:14,315 more encouraged in society 1106 00:40:15,094 --> 00:40:16,695 to sort of handle it on your own 1107 00:40:16,695 --> 00:40:18,694 when you've got challenges like your 1108 00:40:19,175 --> 00:40:22,135 almost your your value to the to society 1109 00:40:22,135 --> 00:40:23,974 is your ability to solve problems and not 1110 00:40:23,974 --> 00:40:25,514 make a lot of noise about it, 1111 00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,360 and, you know, sort of sort of get 1112 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:29,420 things done without, 1113 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,640 you know, be you're supposed to be the 1114 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,519 strong one and somehow which I believe, but 1115 00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:37,000 somehow that got contorted into you're not allowed 1116 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,920 to ever be weak or show weakness even 1117 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:39,675 if you have it, 1118 00:40:40,235 --> 00:40:42,115 which I think gets pretty pathological. But, no, 1119 00:40:42,115 --> 00:40:43,855 I think I think there are different expectations 1120 00:40:44,074 --> 00:40:46,554 culturally for men that lead to places that 1121 00:40:46,554 --> 00:40:48,795 are hard to it's hard to it makes 1122 00:40:48,795 --> 00:40:51,195 it hard to, deal with challenges once once 1123 00:40:51,195 --> 00:40:52,655 we have faced them. 1124 00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:53,699 Yeah. 1125 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,320 I think there's also family and things like 1126 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,500 that that play into this too. Like, 1127 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:01,300 there are, like, 1128 00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:02,579 there are situations 1129 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,960 that you can be placed in that make 1130 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,420 it perennially difficult 1131 00:41:07,199 --> 00:41:08,260 to not be 1132 00:41:09,114 --> 00:41:09,614 lonely. 1133 00:41:10,235 --> 00:41:11,675 And I don't know how deep I wanna 1134 00:41:11,675 --> 00:41:14,155 go into that, but there are there are 1135 00:41:14,155 --> 00:41:15,295 ways that 1136 00:41:16,235 --> 00:41:19,375 your family can come out that it is 1137 00:41:19,515 --> 00:41:21,914 or can be arranged or whatever you wanna 1138 00:41:21,914 --> 00:41:22,349 say 1139 00:41:22,750 --> 00:41:24,690 that make it where you are just perpetually 1140 00:41:24,910 --> 00:41:26,690 in a position of being alone. 1141 00:41:27,470 --> 00:41:28,530 And that's 1142 00:41:28,910 --> 00:41:30,190 a very hard and I don't think that's 1143 00:41:30,190 --> 00:41:31,950 men or women, by the way. I do 1144 00:41:31,950 --> 00:41:33,550 agree with Tom to some degree that we 1145 00:41:33,550 --> 00:41:35,344 do have this. I think women 1146 00:41:35,965 --> 00:41:37,804 have more of the problem, and maybe Yvonne 1147 00:41:37,804 --> 00:41:39,344 will disagree with me or not, but 1148 00:41:39,885 --> 00:41:41,585 that it's a different push. 1149 00:41:41,885 --> 00:41:44,364 There's a different kind of push that makes 1150 00:41:44,364 --> 00:41:45,105 you lonely. 1151 00:41:45,485 --> 00:41:47,264 It's not that it doesn't exist. 1152 00:41:47,724 --> 00:41:49,985 It's that it's different for men and women. 1153 00:41:50,559 --> 00:41:51,380 That men 1154 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,339 have certain kinds of things. Like, 1155 00:41:54,639 --> 00:41:56,400 I was the youngest kid in my class 1156 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,000 all the way through high school, all the 1157 00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:58,819 way through school 1158 00:41:59,519 --> 00:42:02,099 for various reasons, to do with my birthday 1159 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,215 and all sorts of problems. So I was 1160 00:42:04,215 --> 00:42:07,035 always the smallest, weakest boy in the class. 1161 00:42:08,055 --> 00:42:09,434 And that was 1162 00:42:09,974 --> 00:42:11,195 a disaster 1163 00:42:12,695 --> 00:42:13,434 for me 1164 00:42:14,055 --> 00:42:14,555 mentally. 1165 00:42:15,909 --> 00:42:16,409 So, 1166 00:42:17,590 --> 00:42:18,250 you know, 1167 00:42:18,789 --> 00:42:21,190 so I think women face it differently, right, 1168 00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:22,949 than men do, but there are differences. But, 1169 00:42:22,949 --> 00:42:24,550 anyway, I don't know how much to, like, 1170 00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:25,449 go into that. 1171 00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:28,389 It's it's really interesting, and I, I don't 1172 00:42:28,389 --> 00:42:30,230 ever like to paint anything with a broad 1173 00:42:30,230 --> 00:42:32,855 stroke That's not fair to anything. But there 1174 00:42:32,855 --> 00:42:34,454 is there are a lot of studies that 1175 00:42:34,454 --> 00:42:36,715 are looking now at some of the differences 1176 00:42:36,934 --> 00:42:37,434 societal 1177 00:42:37,815 --> 00:42:38,315 societally 1178 00:42:38,775 --> 00:42:40,855 is how we've raised, you know, the the 1179 00:42:40,855 --> 00:42:41,355 different, 1180 00:42:41,735 --> 00:42:43,514 folks in our in our families and 1181 00:42:43,929 --> 00:42:46,170 our expectations and all of that. So I 1182 00:42:46,170 --> 00:42:48,010 think at some point, it's an interesting place 1183 00:42:48,010 --> 00:42:49,610 to dive. We don't really have time to 1184 00:42:49,610 --> 00:42:51,690 do that justice right now, but I think 1185 00:42:51,690 --> 00:42:53,690 you did hit on something that's so important, 1186 00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:54,510 Russ, about 1187 00:42:54,809 --> 00:42:56,110 those who feel different, 1188 00:42:56,815 --> 00:42:57,954 those who are, 1189 00:42:58,255 --> 00:43:00,894 you know, smaller than everybody else, you know, 1190 00:43:00,894 --> 00:43:02,655 might have some kind of a thing that 1191 00:43:02,655 --> 00:43:04,655 makes them stand out, that looks different than 1192 00:43:04,655 --> 00:43:07,375 others, are much more at risk. And I 1193 00:43:07,375 --> 00:43:10,094 think part of what I really would love 1194 00:43:10,094 --> 00:43:12,059 for all of us to do is there 1195 00:43:12,059 --> 00:43:14,559 are certain things that we can anticipate 1196 00:43:15,180 --> 00:43:17,099 that a person it might make a person 1197 00:43:17,099 --> 00:43:19,420 lonely as well when they move away from 1198 00:43:19,420 --> 00:43:21,420 a place they've lived a long, long time 1199 00:43:21,420 --> 00:43:23,119 and have to find all new friends, 1200 00:43:23,579 --> 00:43:25,920 when someone dies and we go through grief, 1201 00:43:26,184 --> 00:43:27,944 when we go through a divorce, if it's 1202 00:43:27,944 --> 00:43:29,565 not something that both wanted, 1203 00:43:29,864 --> 00:43:32,824 one may feel grief, which also may lead 1204 00:43:32,824 --> 00:43:34,664 to loneliness or feeling like I can't go 1205 00:43:34,664 --> 00:43:37,545 out and socialize anymore. Something's wrong. And to 1206 00:43:37,545 --> 00:43:38,684 the extent we can 1207 00:43:39,144 --> 00:43:40,684 see those things in advance 1208 00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:44,710 and create structural supports or new rituals or 1209 00:43:44,710 --> 00:43:45,769 whatever they may be, 1210 00:43:46,070 --> 00:43:47,609 then I think we are a step ahead 1211 00:43:47,670 --> 00:43:49,449 as we think about it because prevention, 1212 00:43:49,829 --> 00:43:51,510 to me, is where this really needs to 1213 00:43:51,510 --> 00:43:54,089 go, being thoughtful, intentional, and prevention. 1214 00:43:54,710 --> 00:43:57,364 Yep. And I've I think your your you've 1215 00:43:57,364 --> 00:44:00,005 mentioned a couple times systems and rituals, and 1216 00:44:00,005 --> 00:44:02,565 those can be so important. Because if you 1217 00:44:02,565 --> 00:44:04,565 show up at a thing every week, people 1218 00:44:04,565 --> 00:44:05,864 expect to see you there. 1219 00:44:06,484 --> 00:44:08,964 And in general, if you're not there, eventually 1220 00:44:08,964 --> 00:44:10,264 somebody will say something. 1221 00:44:10,964 --> 00:44:11,190 And 1222 00:44:12,230 --> 00:44:14,489 having those systems that kind of 1223 00:44:14,949 --> 00:44:16,409 or, you know, volunteerism. 1224 00:44:16,789 --> 00:44:19,050 Right? If if you're doing something 1225 00:44:19,510 --> 00:44:20,809 and you have a responsibility, 1226 00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:24,069 you're much more likely to show up and 1227 00:44:24,069 --> 00:44:26,250 then connect. And I think that 1228 00:44:26,664 --> 00:44:29,065 those are the kinds of systems we can 1229 00:44:29,065 --> 00:44:31,005 build into our life to, 1230 00:44:31,464 --> 00:44:33,784 you know, prevent us from getting too far 1231 00:44:33,784 --> 00:44:36,264 gone. You know, they they they provide an 1232 00:44:36,264 --> 00:44:36,764 opportunity 1233 00:44:37,545 --> 00:44:38,204 to connect 1234 00:44:38,585 --> 00:44:40,344 and for us to be seen. And, 1235 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,099 I know that, I know 1236 00:44:44,199 --> 00:44:45,880 the world is very different for our young 1237 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:46,380 adults. 1238 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:49,739 I'm married incredibly young, so I've always had, 1239 00:44:50,119 --> 00:44:51,819 you know, my spouse, my husband. 1240 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,420 But I have young people in their twenties, 1241 00:44:56,974 --> 00:44:57,474 and 1242 00:44:58,574 --> 00:44:59,074 they 1243 00:44:59,695 --> 00:45:02,414 their the the rate at which they marry 1244 00:45:02,414 --> 00:45:03,715 and meet and develop, 1245 00:45:04,015 --> 00:45:06,114 you know, that kind of an intimate relationship 1246 00:45:07,054 --> 00:45:07,954 takes longer. 1247 00:45:08,335 --> 00:45:08,835 And, 1248 00:45:09,135 --> 00:45:10,835 you know, the ones that 1249 00:45:11,329 --> 00:45:14,449 do well are able to find some sort 1250 00:45:14,449 --> 00:45:15,269 of community 1251 00:45:15,809 --> 00:45:18,309 to connect with. Whether I mean, they may 1252 00:45:18,369 --> 00:45:20,449 they may meet in person and play games 1253 00:45:20,449 --> 00:45:22,150 together. They may do DND. 1254 00:45:22,449 --> 00:45:23,190 They may, 1255 00:45:24,130 --> 00:45:24,869 you know, 1256 00:45:25,994 --> 00:45:28,234 have crafts or hobbies. Like, it doesn't really 1257 00:45:28,234 --> 00:45:29,855 matter what the thing is. 1258 00:45:30,394 --> 00:45:32,875 It's to meet together with folks around either 1259 00:45:32,875 --> 00:45:35,674 a shared interest or goal or something and 1260 00:45:35,674 --> 00:45:36,815 connect. And, 1261 00:45:38,474 --> 00:45:41,010 you know, my oldest went to college and 1262 00:45:41,010 --> 00:45:43,090 really isolated for the first six weeks and 1263 00:45:43,090 --> 00:45:44,530 called and was like, I'm tired. I don't 1264 00:45:44,530 --> 00:45:46,050 wanna do this anymore. I wanna come home. 1265 00:45:46,050 --> 00:45:47,730 I'll just study at home. And, like and 1266 00:45:47,730 --> 00:45:49,890 as we began to unpack what was going 1267 00:45:49,890 --> 00:45:50,390 on, 1268 00:45:51,329 --> 00:45:52,849 he'd been sitting in his dorm the whole 1269 00:45:52,849 --> 00:45:54,769 time. And we're like, bud, you gotta get 1270 00:45:54,769 --> 00:45:56,264 out of your dorm room. You gotta go 1271 00:45:56,264 --> 00:45:57,964 see people. You gotta connect. 1272 00:45:58,664 --> 00:45:59,724 But those are skills 1273 00:46:00,105 --> 00:46:02,025 that have to be learned. They are. And 1274 00:46:02,025 --> 00:46:03,784 we have to we have to be aware 1275 00:46:03,784 --> 00:46:06,025 and teach those skills all over the place 1276 00:46:06,025 --> 00:46:08,184 now. And they also is, you know, what 1277 00:46:08,184 --> 00:46:09,324 do you enjoy doing? 1278 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:11,680 Find something you enjoy doing and get out 1279 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,360 and doing it. And and we have to 1280 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,420 provide those those skills and opportunities for people. 1281 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:17,300 Being outside 1282 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:20,019 is also when especially outside in community, 1283 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,320 we find, in looking at research as one 1284 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:23,680 of the best things we can do for 1285 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:24,180 ourselves. 1286 00:46:24,525 --> 00:46:26,525 And I would suggest the other thing that 1287 00:46:26,525 --> 00:46:28,784 we've not mentioned is a sense of purpose. 1288 00:46:29,404 --> 00:46:31,404 Because to the extent that we feel a 1289 00:46:31,404 --> 00:46:33,264 sense of purpose, that something 1290 00:46:33,804 --> 00:46:35,885 is getting us up in the morning and 1291 00:46:35,885 --> 00:46:37,744 causing us to find pleasure 1292 00:46:38,045 --> 00:46:38,704 with something, 1293 00:46:39,005 --> 00:46:40,980 also in that same way, often connects us 1294 00:46:40,980 --> 00:46:41,940 with others. 1295 00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:44,099 And that, I think, is one of those 1296 00:46:44,099 --> 00:46:46,179 basic human needs that we all have to 1297 00:46:46,179 --> 00:46:48,739 have that also serves as a connector. Just 1298 00:46:48,739 --> 00:46:50,900 why when people retire sometimes and they lose 1299 00:46:50,900 --> 00:46:53,460 that sense of purpose, they become very lonely 1300 00:46:53,460 --> 00:46:55,454 as well. They don't go out. And by 1301 00:46:55,454 --> 00:46:57,795 the way, that ties into being laid off. 1302 00:46:58,014 --> 00:46:59,855 And there are a lot of lay offs 1303 00:46:59,855 --> 00:47:03,214 right now. And Yeah. People don't understand how 1304 00:47:03,214 --> 00:47:05,714 bad on your psyche being laid off is. 1305 00:47:06,174 --> 00:47:06,510 It's 1306 00:47:06,989 --> 00:47:08,289 horrible. But, anyway 1307 00:47:09,230 --> 00:47:10,989 So we might encourage folks then if you 1308 00:47:10,989 --> 00:47:12,449 know someone or you yourself 1309 00:47:12,989 --> 00:47:15,570 have been laid off. This is really important 1310 00:47:15,630 --> 00:47:17,789 right now for those of us who may 1311 00:47:17,789 --> 00:47:19,469 know somebody who is to reach out to 1312 00:47:19,469 --> 00:47:21,574 them, to be a part of their lives, 1313 00:47:21,574 --> 00:47:22,394 to anticipate, 1314 00:47:23,094 --> 00:47:23,755 to to support, 1315 00:47:24,135 --> 00:47:26,135 and those who have been, to make sure 1316 00:47:26,135 --> 00:47:29,194 they find community. They find something as well 1317 00:47:29,335 --> 00:47:31,574 that keeps them connected and going in the 1318 00:47:31,574 --> 00:47:32,074 world. 1319 00:47:32,775 --> 00:47:33,275 Yeah. 1320 00:47:35,059 --> 00:47:35,880 Alright. Well, 1321 00:47:36,340 --> 00:47:37,940 we've been at this, and I think we've 1322 00:47:37,940 --> 00:47:39,160 covered it pretty well. 1323 00:47:39,940 --> 00:47:41,539 Lucy, thanks for coming on. And by the 1324 00:47:41,539 --> 00:47:43,539 way, I said this before the show, before 1325 00:47:43,539 --> 00:47:44,679 we started recording. 1326 00:47:44,980 --> 00:47:46,934 If you wanna talk about this some more, 1327 00:47:47,015 --> 00:47:49,255 we're here. We can arrange a time to 1328 00:47:49,255 --> 00:47:50,934 chat, just set up a time to do 1329 00:47:50,934 --> 00:47:53,494 it, do another recording, gotta make sure Yvonne 1330 00:47:53,494 --> 00:47:54,394 can make it, 1331 00:47:55,255 --> 00:47:56,235 you know, because 1332 00:47:56,535 --> 00:47:57,994 she's our people person. 1333 00:47:58,454 --> 00:48:00,530 Unlike Tom and I, we're much closer to 1334 00:48:00,530 --> 00:48:02,945 that. That's not true. All the plants are 1335 00:48:03,362 --> 00:48:04,849 people. All three of you are people people. 1336 00:48:04,849 --> 00:48:07,090 That's for sure. Tom Tom's a plant person, 1337 00:48:07,090 --> 00:48:09,030 and I'm a hedgehog. So there you go. 1338 00:48:09,090 --> 00:48:09,829 Same thing. 1339 00:48:11,010 --> 00:48:11,510 Alright. 1340 00:48:12,530 --> 00:48:12,929 So, 1341 00:48:13,664 --> 00:48:15,585 alright. Cool. So, Lucy, tell us about your 1342 00:48:15,585 --> 00:48:18,005 book a little bit before we jump off 1343 00:48:18,304 --> 00:48:19,765 and start closing down. 1344 00:48:20,785 --> 00:48:22,304 Well, I wish I had a book. I 1345 00:48:22,304 --> 00:48:23,824 don't. I have not yet written a book 1346 00:48:23,824 --> 00:48:25,425 on this topic. Oh, I thought you had. 1347 00:48:25,425 --> 00:48:27,744 So go ahead. Have one. That will be 1348 00:48:27,744 --> 00:48:29,285 lovely, and, I 1349 00:48:30,090 --> 00:48:32,010 that's in the future. But right now, I 1350 00:48:32,010 --> 00:48:33,930 have one published. But our my website is, 1351 00:48:34,170 --> 00:48:36,030 thecostofloneliness.org, 1352 00:48:36,329 --> 00:48:38,650 and I would really encourage folks to check 1353 00:48:38,650 --> 00:48:39,550 out that website. 1354 00:48:39,930 --> 00:48:41,930 We are expanding it. It will be much 1355 00:48:41,930 --> 00:48:42,430 larger, 1356 00:48:43,265 --> 00:48:45,905 and more current very shortly. But even for 1357 00:48:45,905 --> 00:48:47,265 now, it's a way to reach out and 1358 00:48:47,265 --> 00:48:49,265 to connect. So I'd love for people to 1359 00:48:49,265 --> 00:48:50,465 do that if they will and, 1360 00:48:51,025 --> 00:48:52,864 let us know, you know, what we can 1361 00:48:52,864 --> 00:48:54,385 do as well in your minds to support 1362 00:48:54,385 --> 00:48:56,320 us. And if you have ideas for connection, 1363 00:48:56,380 --> 00:48:58,140 to share those as well. Because one of 1364 00:48:58,140 --> 00:49:00,320 the things we'll use amplifying and sharing. 1365 00:49:00,699 --> 00:49:01,519 That's cool. 1366 00:49:01,820 --> 00:49:02,320 Alright. 1367 00:49:02,860 --> 00:49:04,940 So the costofloneliness.com, 1368 00:49:04,940 --> 00:49:06,800 you said, or .org? .Org. 1369 00:49:06,940 --> 00:49:08,239 .Org. Alright. Cool. 1370 00:49:08,675 --> 00:49:09,175 Okay. 1371 00:49:09,554 --> 00:49:11,315 My my memory my mind is like a 1372 00:49:11,315 --> 00:49:13,315 steel sieve. Only the big chunks stick. I 1373 00:49:13,315 --> 00:49:15,655 I Hedgehogs have trouble with that. 1374 00:49:17,635 --> 00:49:18,855 So so, anyway, 1375 00:49:19,954 --> 00:49:20,454 alright. 1376 00:49:20,914 --> 00:49:21,414 So, 1377 00:49:22,030 --> 00:49:23,730 Tom, where can people find you? 1378 00:49:25,470 --> 00:49:25,970 LinkedIn. 1379 00:49:26,670 --> 00:49:29,150 So he has to pause. He has the 1380 00:49:29,470 --> 00:49:30,530 That's my signature. 1381 00:49:32,190 --> 00:49:33,650 Make you think about it. 1382 00:49:35,775 --> 00:49:38,255 Make you wonder if there's gonna be something 1383 00:49:38,255 --> 00:49:40,414 else after that, but, nope. It's not. I'm 1384 00:49:40,414 --> 00:49:41,855 on LinkedIn too, by the way, Russ, and 1385 00:49:41,855 --> 00:49:43,375 would love to connect with anyone who'd like 1386 00:49:43,375 --> 00:49:44,974 to connect with me as well. Cool. I 1387 00:49:44,974 --> 00:49:46,734 totally forgot to ask you about LinkedIn, but, 1388 00:49:46,734 --> 00:49:49,070 sure. Are you on x or just LinkedIn? 1389 00:49:49,210 --> 00:49:51,070 I'm not. Who's driving? Okay. Alright. 1390 00:49:52,489 --> 00:49:55,289 Alright. Yvonne, where can people find the frog 1391 00:49:55,289 --> 00:49:55,789 lamp? 1392 00:49:56,809 --> 00:49:58,809 Well, the frog lamp is in the she 1393 00:49:58,809 --> 00:50:00,030 shed in my backyard, 1394 00:50:00,410 --> 00:50:02,250 which if you are ever in the Louisville 1395 00:50:02,250 --> 00:50:03,795 area, let me know. And 1396 00:50:04,275 --> 00:50:06,694 if you're willing to drive to the sticks, 1397 00:50:07,315 --> 00:50:09,795 you're you're welcome to I'll I'll even fix 1398 00:50:09,795 --> 00:50:11,174 you a meal. But, 1399 00:50:12,674 --> 00:50:14,034 where do they find me? They find me 1400 00:50:14,034 --> 00:50:14,694 on LinkedIn, 1401 00:50:15,234 --> 00:50:18,019 also on Twitter, x at Sharp Network. 1402 00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,280 Yeah. Reach out. Say hi. Alright. Cool. I'm 1403 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:22,400 Russell White. You can find me here at 1404 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,260 the hedge on rule11.tech. 1405 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:25,460 I'm occasionally 1406 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:27,699 on x. I'm on LinkedIn 1407 00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:29,519 once or twice a day. So if you 1408 00:50:29,519 --> 00:50:31,375 wanna PM me there, that's great. And we 1409 00:50:31,375 --> 00:50:31,875 know 1410 00:50:33,215 --> 00:50:34,175 we live in an attention driven economy. And 1411 00:50:34,175 --> 00:50:36,414 we thank you for listening all the way 1412 00:50:36,414 --> 00:50:38,815 to the bitter end of this episode of 1413 00:50:38,815 --> 00:50:41,215 the hedge. And we will catch you next 1414 00:50:41,215 --> 00:50:41,715 time.