Join us as we gather around the hedge,
where we dig into technology,
business, and culture with the finest minds in
computer networking.
Well, hello, Yvonne's
frog lamp.
Good afternoon.
From the frog lamp and me.
We are going to need
so I got an official request
for
a live webcam of the plant.
So now we're gonna have to have a
live webcam of the plant and the frog
lamp. That would be
a sleep inducing,
like,
stream that, you know, it just sits there.
I mean, maybe once a year, the bulb
will burn out and need to be replaced,
and that's all the excitement you're gonna get
from the.
So Yvonne, I just have to break in
at this point, and, Russ, you can say
who this new voice is at some point.
But, there is a play on Broadway right
now where a plant is one of the
stars, and it is you know, it's not
one that you would think it might be.
It is a whole new one that is
a breakout's
new play on Broadway. So maybe you've got
a future for you with your plant and
the, you know, and the the landline. No.
It's Tom's plant. Tom's plant is the one
everyone wants. Tom's plant.
Yeah. Tom's Yeah. Well, Tom's
plant is a new addition. They're they're both
live, but
yeah. Okay. It's yeah. We constantly worry about
Tom's plant.
So how are you, Tom?
I'm I'm good, but I know you really
are caring about the plant, and so the
plant is fine. And its ego has been
stroked quite a bit by that last message
we got from a listener saying they want
to see it see it live. So the
plant's happy.
Yeah. There you go. I can see you
can see, like, the vibrancy, can't you, Yvonne?
In the
plant? I I'm not sure this is the
same plant that's been there the whole time.
I'm not I'm not sure.
Oh. What? Are you accusing him of substituting
a new plant?
I would have to go back to old
video clips and confirm. But
I suspect that
the leaves have a little more coloration in
them than they used to. So
Maybe he's singing to it.
Maybe. Yeah. It'd be. It'd be.
So the third person back there is
fourth person, whatever it is. I I I
can't count. Don't worry about me. I'm an
engineer, not a mathematician.
Is Lucy Rose?
And Lucy's here to talk to us today
about loneliness. So talk to us a little
bit about yourself before we start talking about
that, Lucy.
And and by the way, in your project,
I know you've written a book on this.
So let's not I would be happy to,
and and I do think I am a
person, not a plant or a lamp. But
if if you all think otherwise, just just
let me know before this is over. Okay?
Yeah. My name is Lucy, and I am
delighted. Thank you all for having me today
and being a part of this, amazing discussion
already.
I take it the plant is not lonely,
because it's got followers, so that's a good
thing. Yeah.
I have been I've been involved in public
health for thirty years, a very long time.
It's been,
it's been the entire trajectory of my professional
career.
So I have worked at the Food Drug
Administration as a senior leader there. I own
my own business and work as a
information that goes out to health care providers
and patients is truthful and not misleading,
that it provides the kind of information all
of us need in order to use products
the best and most effectively. So I've done
that for a very long time.
But about eight years ago, Russ, I I
I'm a PA, by the way, so I'm
a physician assistant. I have an MBA in
marketing.
Lots of things that I enjoy doing in
life, but all of them dedicated to health.
And about eight years ago,
because of the extensive travel that I've had,
during my entire professional life and I mean,
guys, like, you're looking at a person who
probably needs some therapy just for this alone.
I traveled six week six days a week
for twenty years. So you're looking at a
person with, how many, 8,000,000,
almost 9,000,000
hotel points
and 5,000,000
airline miles. Way too much travel.
And it made me lonely, quite frankly.
And loneliness really is we think about what
does that mean. It's pain. It's true pain.
And I'm talking chronic loneliness, not what you
felt like in eighth grade when you're in
the corner in the dance and nobody was
paying attention to you. That's situational loneliness.
Chronic loneliness is that difference between what you
need to fill your your spirit inside, feel
like you belong,
feel like you are cared for in this
world, the intimate kind of emotional relationships we
all need
when that's not being met. And so it
feels different for each person
because, Yvonne, you might need three best friends,
and Tom might need five and Russ one
or whatever that may be in terms of
thinking about what fills you. But about eight
years ago, I realized how lonely I was
from that travel and staying in hotels every
night alone, and it was impacting me physically
and emotionally.
And I took a look at the world
and said, woah. It's not just me. There's
a whole lot of people that are being
impacted by this and started doing research into
the dollars that were being lost and the
productivity that was being lost and the systems
that should be there, Russ, and Art when
we think about networking and networking systems and
how it's not built into our culture because
we're all about, yes. You can. Pull yourself
up by the bootstraps. You don't need anybody
to help you with that. Don't cry. You
can hear all of this. And so that's
when I away from home to take that
big new job. Right? Leave your support system.
Your fam you don't need them. You're fine.
That's right. Oh, yeah. All that stuff. And
so I decided to dedicate part of my
life to to really making folks aware of
this,
helping encourage folks to build systems and to
pay attention to this and to understand that
this is as important,
if not more so, than going to the
gym and taking care of our physical cells,
etcetera. So I started with that project you
said called the the cost of loneliness project
that is there and exists
to really convene and catalyze and connect
people and communities and systems in our country
and in our world to help us all
be more fulfilled and get what we need
that way. Pay attention to it and do
something about it. And you're talking about dollars
and cents in one direction, but there's other
directions. Like, I assume if you're what you're
thinking there is you're thinking,
okay.
There we talked about apathy last week on
our show, which is, like, odd. People are
like, you know but
it's part of the reason that people are
apathetic is because they are lonely. That's one
of the problems. Right.
And the other thing is not just lost
productivity,
but the health problems it causes
from, like, being under
constant stress
of being lonely. Like, that whole
seeking things out and not being able to
find it, I think drives a lot of
stress in your life
that then
falls back into
heart problems and muscle problems and Yeah. It
does. Internal It does. Like organ or whatever
kind.
Absolutely. And it it's kind of a paradox
too because as a lonely person seeks soothing
behaviors,
and those behaviors could be overeating
as an example or addiction or buying too
much
in a at a local store or online
or whatever it may be, all kinds of
ways we do that.
It's kind of a paradox, isn't it? Because
as we go to the soothing behaviors, they
make life worse, not better, ultimately, in the
long run. And so it becomes even harder.
But, you know, as I think, yes, you're
right. I mean, let's just put dollars on
it. The amount of dollars estimated
lost in this country due to absenteeism
alone,
Just absenteeism.
$460,000,000,000
from business every year. And that doesn't include,
Russ, your cons your thoughts about
how the hormone cortisol is released with chronic
stress and chronic anxiety causes
heart disease, GI disease, cancer,
even dementia, perhaps.
As all that happens, that's not even included
in that 460,000,000,000,
nor is the treatment for addiction or any
of those other things. So the cost dollar
wise, just pure dollar wise, is it is
just almost hard to believe or imagine and
put it together.
Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I
find in our our world, especially when it
comes to any topic related to feelings, mental
health, any of that,
we don't have a vocabulary
to even talk about it. Right? And so
if you don't have a vocabulary,
you have a hard time even recognizing
the condition.
Right? And so
what should
what are the things that people might notice
in themselves to even help them know whether
this is a problem for them or somebody
they care about?
How how do you know you're lonely?
You feel it in your in your heart
and soul, frankly.
It's a heartache almost that that one can
feel. But what you also see and, you
know, it depends on age as well. I
mean, if you're a parent looking at a
child as an example,
that child's grades might have been all a's
and b's, and suddenly now they're not wanting
to do their homework and their grades are
falling. Or we used to see them on
the phone all the time, like, in the
old days. Now I guess it's texting or
whatever.
But and that that has its own place
we should talk about before we go. But,
you know, now they're not doing that as
much, so they're not connecting. They used to
be involved in sports. And this season, they
said, I'm really not sure I wanna play
baseball anymore. You know, you can see actual
changes happen. You also can see folks again
begin to get sick because the immune system
gets down, when in fact you're lonely and
this cortisol releases and all of that happens
too.
You might stay home to apathy. Russ, you
already mentioned apathy. One of the things that
that pops up often is folks just say,
I I don't care anymore. They choose to
stay home instead of going to a party
this season this holiday season. You know? And
they they they don't wanna go to dinner,
and they start turning down invitations.
All kinds of things can happen up to
and including the soothing behaviors we were just
talking about as well. Because you know inside,
you're you're not being seen. You're not feeling
cared for. Something feels missing Yeah. In your
soul.
I have I have a couple kids still
at home, and and I know during the
pandemic back when, like, we were doing school
at home, and
kids lost a lot of those connections that
they had with school and friends. I even
noticed in my own children
that they would hit a point where they
just continued to further withdraw
and they didn't understand what was going on.
And we had to actively
say,
come out of your room,
sit in here with me and your dad,
let's have a conversation,
let's get out of the house and go
do something.
And then when we prompted them to, and
then they started interacting,
a lot of those behaviors got better.
But
you have to recognize it and make some
kind of behavior change in order to solve
the problem.
And when it's your children, at least you
can kinda say, hey, I'm mom. We gotta
do this. Right? But I I also think
that the pandemic and the changes in schedule
and routine
kick started loneliness for a lot of people.
And then when you're in it, if you
don't recognize this what's going on, it's harder
to pull yourself out of it.
It's really harder because one of the things
you don't wanna do is go out when
you're lonely. Right. Because you're putting yourself out
there. And what if folks don't say, come
on, Yvonne. Let's hug each other or do
whatever and accept you? And I think, you
know, when you mentioned COVID and you mentioned
this younger children, it scares me to death
about this next generation coming up because I'm
not sure they've learned those social skills or
that we have really focused on empathy and
teaching them how to, you know, do what
we're talking about here. Kudos to you for
recognizing it and for saying and for modeling
it and for saying, let's go out. Let's
do this. Let's do that. Because it really
sometimes takes some real jump starting on our
behalf as parents to notice it, a, in
ourselves, if we're lonely, and to notice it
in our kids and then to say, yeah.
Together, we can do something about it. And
what great thing. Setting rituals as a family
can also be important. Maybe we do pizza
night every Friday, and people get excited about
it. Or you and your kid take a
walk together in the woods on a Saturday
afternoon or whatever that may be. So I
think recognizing it is in part,
knowing that you are getting sick more often,
Knowing that you than you normally do. Because
that's the effect of the stress. Right? That's
what happens. When your stress is up,
your your immune system goes down and you
start getting sick all the time. Another thing
is, you know, not wanting to go out,
not wanting to do things, withdrawing.
And that withdrawal doesn't look the same for
everybody. For some people, it's go stare at
a screen or play a video game. And
for some people, it's, you know they can
this can sound crazy. Some people can withdraw
by going and sitting in a bar every
night and sitting in the same little corner
and not talking to anybody.
It's almost a form of self harm, and
I hate to say that. Yeah. So much
fun. It's it's an
emotional,
like, I'm gonna torture myself by watching other
people have fun.
Well, and I leave your cell phone. Come
up. No. And as the holidays come up
and we think about this, you know, one
in eight to one in twelve, all the
studies always have, you know, some variety in
them.
But as an example, are alcoholics in our
country, adults? Lots. And we may or may
not realize who is around us.
But the people sometimes the loneliest people are
the ones that are in a crowd or
the ones that are at your own Thanksgiving
table, and we don't know it because there's
such a stigma around
people saying I'm lonely. Help me. It sounds
weak in this country to say that still.
And so how do we encourage people that
are sitting alone at the bar, Russ, and,
you know, we see them at the bar,
so they must be okay because they're not
sitting at home.
Yeah. I so I it seems it's it
seems to me that when you when a
when a loan someone who's feeling lonely does
because because like we talked about, it is
very hard to break out of it on
your own. But when you do,
really, that person is taking a pretty huge
risk to come out and be and be
among people again. It takes a gigantic risk
and so and and it can go it
can go wrong like pretty easy and especially
with, you know, diminished social skills and connection
skills among other people, we'll see them. Oh,
they're fine. If they're here, they're fine. I
don't need to worry about them. When we
look at other people by themselves, we ought
to say, oh, they're probably do they're probably
not doing as good as I think. It's
probably a pretty good assumption to make. Yeah.
Oh, Tom. I I just
I just wanna pause for a second and
capture what you just said. Because, you know,
as I look around at people in the
grocery stores that are checking out and they
got their headsets on or talking on the
phone, and they're never looking at the the
checkout
person and talking with them and recognizing
you know, people ask me about hope, and
I look at it, and it's those small
moments that all of us can control.
You know, the person who is deathly lonely
may not feel like and I say deathly
in loose terms. I don't mean it that
way, but really lonely,
you know, may not have the courage to
go out, and it becomes upon us to
try to help them do that. But there
are also moments every day in our lives
where we can touch people simply by smiling
as we bought bought by the security guard
or the doorman at an apartment building or
the folks checking us out in a in
a large store, anything that might, to your
point, change their lives forever. And we'll never
know, But taking that moment can do that.
And by the way, the most at risk
for loneliness, just to introduce this, is not
the elderly as a lot of people think,
but between 18 and 34.
Interesting. Yeah. So one thing I wanted to
ask
is that
we have a lot of introvert
extrovert stuff in our field.
One of the reason I call this podcast
The Hedge
is because all the network engineers
I know are like hedgehogs.
I
mean, it's it's it's a place to go
and gather and talk. Right? That's the hedge.
Right? You know, people talk at the hedge.
But the other thing is is that it's
a hedgehog because a lot of network engineers,
you get close to them and they hiss
and chatter their little teeth and curl up
in a ball and stick their spines out
and say go away. And we have a
we have a lot of introversion.
So I wanna get your take on, like,
is there a relationship between that introversion,
extroversion?
Because you can't change it. I know people,
oh, I can check and be in it.
No. You can't. I'm sorry. You either get
your energy from other people or you don't.
That's just the way you are,
and you just have to deal with coping
skills
to do that. So do you think there's
anything in that realm
that might impact
the amount of loneliness that people see or
the way they react to it?
How many Von is there? Do you all
have thoughts? I'll weigh in, but I just
wanna make sure that Yeah. We're all speaking
of loneliness, so we're all engaged together on
this.
You know,
I I often so I I think everybody,
at least me, Tom, and Russ, all have
degrees of introversion.
Right? Like, and
and I've often wondered if at the end
of the because but for me,
I enjoy
deep conversation and deep connection
in small groups. Yep.
Right. I have often wondered if for extroverts,
they don't get the same degree of connection
because they flit around. Right? They they
and maybe this is
a harsh characterization.
But,
you know, I I most of the extroverts
that I know,
it's harder to have a deep conversation with
them. And so
I wonder if in some way where we
think, well, maybe introverts are lonelier because,
you know, they they they don't care
to engage with lots of people. But, you
know, I don't know. I'm not sure that
that will be the case. I think extroverts
can be lonely. They just don't seem it,
maybe. I don't know.
Yeah. I I my observation has been it.
I don't know that it has exactly the
same manifestations
in both, introverts and extroverts, but I think
it cuts just as deep in them. I
think it is just as difficult emotionally.
And I I think sometimes it's
a lot harder if you're looking at someone
and trying to help them, from the outside.
It's a lot harder to sort of gauge
how lonely an extrovert is,
because their energy sort of covers up some
things.
And and I think we're also a little
more prone
to look at a an introvert and quote
diagnose them as being lonely. And, you know,
sometimes that's not what's going on at all.
Although increasingly more people are being affected by
it, but I but I've made more mistakes,
thinking it's loneliness with introverts than I have
with extroverts.
Interesting.
Yeah. What lovely observations. And I think, you
know, at least as we look at data,
it really boils down to each individual
and what they need.
And I I I will say that, Tom,
I really as an extrovert,
I really appreciate your observation
because it it does matter. And, interestingly, of
course, folks assume extra extroverts because they are
generally more out there and seem to have
whatever.
They can't be lonely.
I am here to say, being extremely vulnerable
as I say it, yeah. I was definitely
lonely, very lonely, and no one noticed, you
know, because I I don't put that persona
on.
And I think so as we look at
and and I really appreciate what you said,
Yvonne, about having those meaningful deep conversations.
It is certainly possible. I I love having
those deep conversations, and and I I,
I I really beg for them almost, if
you know what I mean. I set up
opportunities to do it because they're exceedingly meaningful
to me even as an extrovert.
I'm not getting energy from it in the
same way we define introvert and extrovert,
but I'm getting meaning and feel seen and
heard and cared for. So I think
to a great extent, it's whatever an individual
needs
to fulfill that
that need for them.
But we do have to care for all.
And here's the thing, you can't tell just
by looking at somebody most of the time,
which is why we also have to destigmatize
it and ask the right questions,
you know, and and move forward in helping
each other figure this out some not another.
What a great question. Yeah. Interesting.
So,
alright. So now we've talked a little bit
about what it is,
and we've talked a little bit about how
to recognize it a little bit. I think
there are other things that people could could
clone on to know if they're feeling lonely
because not everybody is deeply emotional, frankly,
and particularly people who are and, again, this
is another strange thing. I remember walking
into a a Cisco office one day and
I walked into the development department, and someone
kind of where all the coders sit and
somebody was like,
you know,
if you want to just
look at the range of the spectrum
of people who are on the spectrum,
you're probably looking at a bunch of either
high functioning or mid functioning sociopaths
sitting
in this darkened area writing code.
You know?
They're probably not wrong, honestly, just to be
truthful.
And so people
in technology fields tend to not have the
emotional tools to see, like as as Yvonne
said, that they're even that they're even they
don't have the vocabulary or the tools to
understand. I am lonely.
Like, they they can't connect that.
So,
but I'm also very curious about
what do we do about it? We've talked
a little bit about getting out.
Sure. Get out of your shell. I'll tell
you a story. When I when I designed
the first house I designed for my kids,
I designed it with I designed this for
my family.
I designed it with two big great rooms.
One was,
quote, unquote, the living room.
The other was, quote, unquote, the computer room.
And
the kids' bedrooms were really small.
And all through their lives until we moved
out of that, they complained about those bedrooms.
Oh, I wanna sit in my bed. Oh,
I wanna be in my my bedroom is
too small, dad. And I was always like,
you don't get it. That's the point.
The point is to create a physical space
where if you're gonna sit on the computer
or you're gonna be doing crafts or whatever,
you have to get out of your bedroom
and come into a common area
and be with people to do it. Like,
that was intentional. That was not an unintentional
thing.
And so
that's just one of those things that I,
you know, think about when I think about
what do you do to get out of
this.
I don't know. Any other thoughts, Yvonne, Tom,
Lucy, anything?
I had a scenario that happened at work
a few years ago,
and and,
a very capable person had joined our team
and when they first started, they were,
you know, they engage in conversation and team
meetings and things like that. And I just
noticed one day,
he's not said much lately. And so I
just pinged him and said, hey.
You've been quiet lately. How's it going?
And we talked a couple days later and
I, at the time, did not think anything
of it. Right.
But then like a year or two later,
he and I were having our regular sync.
And he mentioned that moment to me and
how he felt noticed
because I commented that he had gotten quiet.
And
so
he had stuff going on that I had
no idea
about. And I think that
that noticing
and just offering that connection
is so important. And it it was low
effort.
It was it was low effort. You know,
it's not like I was like, oh, I'm
gonna go out and be sure nobody's lonely.
It was just, hey. Haven't heard from this
guy in a while. I'm gonna see how
he's doing. And it really is
that can be
that simple.
I think a a great example of that
is,
learning someone's name and and using it when
you talk to them.
It's such a small and simple thing, but
when you I've observed this myself. When you
used to call someone by their name after
having met them,
it's it's powerful. I mean, it's powerful even
in the conversation when you're learning their name.
But when you say their name, the next
time you see them,
that is I don't know why, but it
seems seems to have outsized impact that that
one thing.
You know, it's interesting, Yvonne, and, Tom, both
of you, clearly, you're right on with some
simple low hanging fruit things we can all
just be intentional about. And I think, you
know, one of my goals in this project
and what we're doing right now is helping
folks really understand the importance of doing it
and how simple and free it is to
actually do these things. But, you know, an
example another one is, like, we measure our
success in social media by how many likes
we have. Mhmm. One of the actual measures
we should be measuring is does anybody notice
when I'm no longer there on social media?
That's the kind of thing, you know, you
notice, oh, a 100 people like this. Well,
yeah, but Russ didn't comment for the last
two weeks. I Wonder if he's doing okay.
That connection,
that being seen,
and how we measure that is so important.
And I think we can look at the
individual level like this and thinking with intention.
I was talking with a a college president
the other day about painting, doing some painting
stuff, and suggested and we'd just been talking
about loneliness and connections
when we're doing painting. And he said and
I said, so why don't you just have
an alumni day and bring everybody out there
and, you know, bring community together, see what
you can do? And he saw he stopped
and he thought and he said, yeah. And
we could actually, instead of having a bucket
for everybody, have one bucket for five people.
So they actually have to share and talk
with one another. And then we started talking.
Well, what if we let them choose the
residence hall they wanted to paint, and they
could choose the one that they enjoyed the
most? And then they talk about their best
memories as they're doing that. All of a
sudden, all it is is bringing intentionality
to this at the at the individual level
and how we think to rush your point
about designing a family room and making the
room so small, I didn't even wanna be
in there. Of course not. It's intentional.
But the other piece of this are systems.
And I I think, you know, when I
think about network systems and what we can
do,
how can we create better systems as a
community and as a country to encourage this?
How can we design towns that are walkable?
How can we design buildings that encourage community
gatherings and what they look like? What does
that look like? So our architects, our city
planners, our teachers, how can they build in
empathy
training in the classroom and awareness and things
like that? So what are we doing with
systems too? So it's a both and, Russ.
I'm just I realized I'm introducing something Yeah.
In addition here. Russ. But it's visual and
big picture, I think. Yvonne, I yeah. You're
leaning in.
Oh, well no. So one of the so
I've been a Googler for five years, and
one of the things that really Which means
which means, by the way, if you don't
know what this means, it means she only
searches for things. She's a Googler.
Okay. To that case for us. Okay. No.
But one of the things that I really
learned
and and became really real to me is
when I started visiting
our offices
is how much our architecture
and the space around us influences how we
see the world. Like, big open spaces make
us more creative. And I think one of
the one of the really interesting things when
you go to a Google office, for example,
is they're they're designed to have big open
meeting spaces. There are places to sit and
talk and convene and collaborate.
And sure, there are quiet places to work,
but they're also
intentionally
designed
for people to gather and connect.
And,
and and I think
sometimes we've gotten to either clinical
or,
we we try to overoptimize
every little inch of space and make use
of it
instead of
thinking about
how we construct.
A a coworker of mine said this quote
a while back. He says, you know, first
I think it maybe Churchill. I can't remember.
I have to look up who said it.
But but first, we build our building we
make our buildings, and then our buildings make
us. That's the joke. And so yep. So
the the
the architecture
in which we live
influences how we see the world,
and we can choose that.
And it's and and thinking about it, gathering
spaces, all those things can be so important.
And I think, you know,
in suburbia,
like, we've kind of lost that, right, because
everybody rides in the car, they, you know,
they have their individual homes, their individual
fences and yards, and,
yeah, there aren't the communal spaces that that
we've had in the past. Yeah. Or the
community. I mean, those individual homes were supposed
to contain families,
and those fences were, you know, meant to
make for good neighbors
because you still have everybody working together
on the other side of the house, on
the front yard.
We don't do any of that anymore.
Like, we put the fences in the front
yards, and we don't have backyards at all.
That's pretty much what it feels like sometimes.
And this is not guys, this is not
a would feel what we're talking about now,
just to make sure that everybody listening is
the reality around this stuff, This is not,
like, touchy feely, and we all just need
to feel good and, you know, sorry we're
not in the backyards anymore. This is this
is a a public health crisis that
arms us
physically as well as emotionally in every way.
And at some point in time, as humans,
we're wired for connection.
You know, we we act like we're not
animals, and yet, clearly, we are.
And our species is wired for connection from
the beginning to to help each other, to
support each other to survive.
And so it is a critical moment in
our time that we recognize this and begin
to put systems and individual caring into place
that brings us back. The paradox is we're
the most connected we've ever been and the
least connected we may have ever been simultaneously,
which is an interesting way to think about
this, I think. Yeah. I think partly because
the way we connect today over social media
in particular
is very much an invitation to compare yourself.
And that that is
I mean, as I as I say, you
know, it's too it's
every media type this is going back to
I can't remember this. Anyway, this goes back
to an old media theory system
where
every media type has a resonance,
and the resonance of writing
is information transfer and narrative.
The resonance of television
is entertainment.
This is why people say, oh, you could
learn Greek on the television. No.
Because it's
television is entertainment.
And and and no matter what you do,
it's gonna turn in you can take the
most sober preacher in the world or the
best Greek teacher in the world. The only
way they're gonna survive on television is to
entertain
because that's the that's just
the way the medium works.
To me, the medium of social media is
about,
is about performance.
We go into social media to perform
and to compare,
and that, I think, is the real danger
of the way the modern world
connects, so to speak. I'm putting up air
quotes for people who can't see me. Connects.
It's not really connection most of the time.
So, anyway, sorry. That was just, like, my
little aside. It's funny you would say that
the difference in connection and connect. Yeah.
I just moderated a session in Las Vegas
a couple weeks ago at HealthUSA
twenty twenty five. And there were a lot
of people in the audience, but there were
four pretty smart people on the stage too.
And as we began, the the topic was
authentic connection in an artificial world.
And we were kind of bantering back and
forth this concept of the social media
really connect, or is it truly a form
of communication?
And also going all the way now to
the bots, the companion bots, and your best
friend is Sarah the bot, and what does
that look like and all the ramifications
around that, which is a different path than
we are now. But it's interesting to think
about the impact that is making and is
going to make in the future. Of the
12,000 people that were attending this conference,
I bet a thousand of them are working
on something having to do with technology Yeah.
And bringing people together.
Yep. It's interesting.
I would love,
one thing I would love to touch on
is, you know, I really believe in order
to truly connect, there has to be a
degree of vulnerability.
In other words, you have to risk a
little bit to connect with another person. And
I I thought of this as Russ was
talking about social media because you can put
exactly what you want on social media,
show the parts of you that you want
people to see,
hide the parts that you don't want people
to
see. And and that can be,
you can exclude any vulnerability,
and you can even feign vulnerability.
I'd love to hear your thoughts
on
the importance of vulnerability when it comes to
that connection and battling loneliness,
and
how to manage that if vulnerability is really
scary for folks.
Vulnerability is really scary for everybody, I think.
Yes.
Yeah. I'm a big Brene Brown fan, and,
of course, she if you happen to be
a Brene Brown fan, you would know. She
writes a lot about both shame and vulnerability
and how how they hold us back from
being the, often,
the, most daring people that we might be
able to be, it is critical. Clearly, one
of the things that sets apart you and
I actually getting to know each other in
reality, which we are beginning to communicate this
way, but or the five senses as well
because we can hug one another when we're
being vulnerable and and say I care about
you and thank you for sharing that. We
can meet eyes, we smell, we we feel,
all those things. That's missing from what we're
doing right now. We can see each other
and hear each other, but we're missing the
other senses.
And that vulnerability
is critical. Bilateral vulnerability
is critical clearly for creating meaningful authentic connections.
I I was not very vulnerable as a
human for most of my life.
I just I just didn't listen to everybody
else. I didn't share mine. And only recently
am I, I think, at least, beginning to
learn how to be more that way. It's
not easy, but it is the way to
create
authentic relationships.
You're so right. Until we do that because
it's trust at the end of the day,
isn't it? And as people trust us or
not based on how willing we are to
be authentic with them, I think.
For sure.
Yeah.
Yeah. What do you think, though, Yvonne? You
brought up vulnerability.
There's something
beyond that for you that you're thinking?
I you know, I I just,
I have seen so many folks who who
just
struggle to let the wall down. Like, there's
a sense of self protectiveness.
And
I think often what we may not realize
is, like,
there's risk and and
vulnerability and of being hurt. Yeah. There's always
that risk.
But the consequence of not doing it
doesn't mean you avoid pain either. You experience
the pain of loneliness. So you
pain of loneliness. So you you have to
choose, you know, whether you're gonna risk the
vulnerability with a positive outcome or you're just
gonna pull back,
but then you run the risk
of loneliness. And certainly, if you're never vulnerable
or never connect, you will experience loneliness.
Right? So,
I don't
I don't think we
we frame it that way. And so the
vulnerability
seems way scarier to us,
but it actually
is not the worst outcome. The worst outcome
is that we never connect.
Oh, that's so wise. And we don't we
don't teach that. We teach be perfect.
You know? Don't share your flaws because somebody
might not like you or you might be
less than. And it goes back to something
you said, Tom, too, and all of you
have said about social media and, you know,
how we can create. You said too, Yvonne.
You know, you can create what you want
to on there, and you don't have to
be vulnerable.
And we don't because it's uncomfortable, and we
don't know how to do that. We're scared
folks will not like us anymore Yeah. Or
leave or will look weak or any of
those things. And That's awesome. The bravest and
the most vulnerable is what say is Yeah.
Sorry about that. So
yeah. And in fact, part of the problem
is you create this persona on social media.
Right? Yeah. But that's not really on social
media.
It's not it's what they call anonymous.
It actually creeps into your real life
because you gain
acceptance
and you gain attention
by putting that persona on social media.
There is no way for you psychologically
to contain that
personality that you've created, that identity
on social media.
You become that person,
and it doesn't matter whether you intend to
or not.
It's what happens.
So you put this big
shell up of all these great things,
highlight reels of your life. There's a paper
out there called highlight reels. And you put
this whole thing this whole highlight reel out
there, and then in real life, you sit
there and you go, well, but if I'm
not those highlight reels when I'm in person
with my family at Thanksgiving or Christmas or
whatever it is you do,
I'm not
gonna get the kind of attention I do
on social media.
I'm not gonna get that kind of positive
feedback,
and then you try to become that person.
It it's like we have this idea that
we can separate that social media personality
and and, like, compartmentalize it and close the
door on it, and you can't. You just
you you just can't.
So, anyway, another
and I I know we're getting close, but
I just wanna open one more door if
it's okay with you guys. Because I'm I'm
looking at my buddy my new buddies, Russ
and Tom.
I I you know, there's data out there
that makes you wonder about,
gender differences
and loneliness
and how we express that and what we
need and how we're raised
and all of those things. And I with
with if it's okay with you all, and
if it's not, that's fine too. But I
just wanna put this out there. Do you
all have any thoughts about
that perhaps and there are books out there,
all kinds of studies too about this, but
perhaps differences in in gender and how you
all might have been raised or how you
see the world socially
that might be different and make it even
more of a challenge sometimes
for
for men than women.
Yeah. I think I think in general, men
are this is very broad generalization. Men are
more encouraged in society
to sort of handle it on your own
when you've got challenges like your
almost your your value to the to society
is your ability to solve problems and not
make a lot of noise about it,
and, you know, sort of sort of get
things done without,
you know, be you're supposed to be the
strong one and somehow which I believe, but
somehow that got contorted into you're not allowed
to ever be weak or show weakness even
if you have it,
which I think gets pretty pathological. But, no,
I think I think there are different expectations
culturally for men that lead to places that
are hard to it's hard to it makes
it hard to, deal with challenges once once
we have faced them.
Yeah.
I think there's also family and things like
that that play into this too. Like,
there are, like,
there are situations
that you can be placed in that make
it perennially difficult
to not be
lonely.
And I don't know how deep I wanna
go into that, but there are there are
ways that
your family can come out that it is
or can be arranged or whatever you wanna
say
that make it where you are just perpetually
in a position of being alone.
And that's
a very hard and I don't think that's
men or women, by the way. I do
agree with Tom to some degree that we
do have this. I think women
have more of the problem, and maybe Yvonne
will disagree with me or not, but
that it's a different push.
There's a different kind of push that makes
you lonely.
It's not that it doesn't exist.
It's that it's different for men and women.
That men
have certain kinds of things. Like,
I was the youngest kid in my class
all the way through high school, all the
way through school
for various reasons, to do with my birthday
and all sorts of problems. So I was
always the smallest, weakest boy in the class.
And that was
a disaster
for me
mentally.
So,
you know,
so I think women face it differently, right,
than men do, but there are differences. But,
anyway, I don't know how much to, like,
go into that.
It's it's really interesting, and I, I don't
ever like to paint anything with a broad
stroke That's not fair to anything. But there
is there are a lot of studies that
are looking now at some of the differences
societal
societally
is how we've raised, you know, the the
different,
folks in our in our families and
our expectations and all of that. So I
think at some point, it's an interesting place
to dive. We don't really have time to
do that justice right now, but I think
you did hit on something that's so important,
Russ, about
those who feel different,
those who are,
you know, smaller than everybody else, you know,
might have some kind of a thing that
makes them stand out, that looks different than
others, are much more at risk. And I
think part of what I really would love
for all of us to do is there
are certain things that we can anticipate
that a person it might make a person
lonely as well when they move away from
a place they've lived a long, long time
and have to find all new friends,
when someone dies and we go through grief,
when we go through a divorce, if it's
not something that both wanted,
one may feel grief, which also may lead
to loneliness or feeling like I can't go
out and socialize anymore. Something's wrong. And to
the extent we can
see those things in advance
and create structural supports or new rituals or
whatever they may be,
then I think we are a step ahead
as we think about it because prevention,
to me, is where this really needs to
go, being thoughtful, intentional, and prevention.
Yep. And I've I think your your you've
mentioned a couple times systems and rituals, and
those can be so important. Because if you
show up at a thing every week, people
expect to see you there.
And in general, if you're not there, eventually
somebody will say something.
And
having those systems that kind of
or, you know, volunteerism.
Right? If if you're doing something
and you have a responsibility,
you're much more likely to show up and
then connect. And I think that
those are the kinds of systems we can
build into our life to,
you know, prevent us from getting too far
gone. You know, they they they provide an
opportunity
to connect
and for us to be seen. And,
I know that, I know
the world is very different for our young
adults.
I'm married incredibly young, so I've always had,
you know, my spouse, my husband.
But I have young people in their twenties,
and
they
their the the rate at which they marry
and meet and develop,
you know, that kind of an intimate relationship
takes longer.
And,
you know, the ones that
do well are able to find some sort
of community
to connect with. Whether I mean, they may
they may meet in person and play games
together. They may do DND.
They may,
you know,
have crafts or hobbies. Like, it doesn't really
matter what the thing is.
It's to meet together with folks around either
a shared interest or goal or something and
connect. And,
you know, my oldest went to college and
really isolated for the first six weeks and
called and was like, I'm tired. I don't
wanna do this anymore. I wanna come home.
I'll just study at home. And, like and
as we began to unpack what was going
on,
he'd been sitting in his dorm the whole
time. And we're like, bud, you gotta get
out of your dorm room. You gotta go
see people. You gotta connect.
But those are skills
that have to be learned. They are. And
we have to we have to be aware
and teach those skills all over the place
now. And they also is, you know, what
do you enjoy doing?
Find something you enjoy doing and get out
and doing it. And and we have to
provide those those skills and opportunities for people.
Being outside
is also when especially outside in community,
we find, in looking at research as one
of the best things we can do for
ourselves.
And I would suggest the other thing that
we've not mentioned is a sense of purpose.
Because to the extent that we feel a
sense of purpose, that something
is getting us up in the morning and
causing us to find pleasure
with something,
also in that same way, often connects us
with others.
And that, I think, is one of those
basic human needs that we all have to
have that also serves as a connector. Just
why when people retire sometimes and they lose
that sense of purpose, they become very lonely
as well. They don't go out. And by
the way, that ties into being laid off.
And there are a lot of lay offs
right now. And Yeah. People don't understand how
bad on your psyche being laid off is.
It's
horrible. But, anyway
So we might encourage folks then if you
know someone or you yourself
have been laid off. This is really important
right now for those of us who may
know somebody who is to reach out to
them, to be a part of their lives,
to anticipate,
to to support,
and those who have been, to make sure
they find community. They find something as well
that keeps them connected and going in the
world.
Yeah.
Alright. Well,
we've been at this, and I think we've
covered it pretty well.
Lucy, thanks for coming on. And by the
way, I said this before the show, before
we started recording.
If you wanna talk about this some more,
we're here. We can arrange a time to
chat, just set up a time to do
it, do another recording, gotta make sure Yvonne
can make it,
you know, because
she's our people person.
Unlike Tom and I, we're much closer to
that. That's not true. All the plants are
people. All three of you are people people.
That's for sure. Tom Tom's a plant person,
and I'm a hedgehog. So there you go.
Same thing.
Alright.
So,
alright. Cool. So, Lucy, tell us about your
book a little bit before we jump off
and start closing down.
Well, I wish I had a book. I
don't. I have not yet written a book
on this topic. Oh, I thought you had.
So go ahead. Have one. That will be
lovely, and, I
that's in the future. But right now, I
have one published. But our my website is,
thecostofloneliness.org,
and I would really encourage folks to check
out that website.
We are expanding it. It will be much
larger,
and more current very shortly. But even for
now, it's a way to reach out and
to connect. So I'd love for people to
do that if they will and,
let us know, you know, what we can
do as well in your minds to support
us. And if you have ideas for connection,
to share those as well. Because one of
the things we'll use amplifying and sharing.
That's cool.
Alright.
So the costofloneliness.com,
you said, or .org? .Org.
.Org. Alright. Cool.
Okay.
My my memory my mind is like a
steel sieve. Only the big chunks stick. I
I Hedgehogs have trouble with that.
So so, anyway,
alright.
So,
Tom, where can people find you?
LinkedIn.
So he has to pause. He has the
That's my signature.
Make you think about it.
Make you wonder if there's gonna be something
else after that, but, nope. It's not. I'm
on LinkedIn too, by the way, Russ, and
would love to connect with anyone who'd like
to connect with me as well. Cool. I
totally forgot to ask you about LinkedIn, but,
sure. Are you on x or just LinkedIn?
I'm not. Who's driving? Okay. Alright.
Alright. Yvonne, where can people find the frog
lamp?
Well, the frog lamp is in the she
shed in my backyard,
which if you are ever in the Louisville
area, let me know. And
if you're willing to drive to the sticks,
you're you're welcome to I'll I'll even fix
you a meal. But,
where do they find me? They find me
on LinkedIn,
also on Twitter, x at Sharp Network.
Yeah. Reach out. Say hi. Alright. Cool. I'm
Russell White. You can find me here at
the hedge on rule11.tech.
I'm occasionally
on x. I'm on LinkedIn
once or twice a day. So if you
wanna PM me there, that's great. And we
know
we live in an attention driven economy. And
we thank you for listening all the way
to the bitter end of this episode of
the hedge. And we will catch you next
time.