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Join us as we gather around the hedge,

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where we dig into technology,

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business, and culture with the finest minds in

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computer networking.

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Hello, Tom. How are you this morning?

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Hello, Russ. I'm doing well. How about yourself?

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Fine. So tell me about the box in

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the background.

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So the box is the box that a

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model rocket kit came in. Me and my

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oldest boy work on model rockets together. And

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this one's a two stage, so it's more

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complicated than any one we've done before. Oh,

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really cool. Really cool. You could you could

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free up some desk space by using the

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box as a plant stand. I

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could.

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I don't think the plant consent of the

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plant to do that. Yeah. I was I

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was gonna say, I don't think the plant's

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excited about that because it's not exactly stable.

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Well, I mean, I don't know. You know?

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Just trying to bring the plant back to

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the conversation.

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It's a plant.

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It is. It's heard some things. I'll tell

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you.

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We are still awaiting the plant cam.

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Yeah. I wonder how many people would watch

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it.

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Probably. More than you could imagine.

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I was going to say.

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Probably,

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you'd probably get higher ratings there than we

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do on the hedge. Yeah. There we go.

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So we also have George with us who

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is upside down as always, but you can't

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see it on the camera. Nope. Gravity is

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working its magic effect on me at this

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very moment.

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Every time you guys every time you say

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that, Russ, I'm tempted to make a comment

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about the toilet water swirling backwards.

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The thing is, that corallis force,

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I don't believe anyone has been able to

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successfully demonstrate it because perturbations

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in small bodies of water persist for remarkably

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long time. And so this whole thing about

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we did it and we left the water

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and then it went down the other way

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in the other hemisphere, You would have to

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do this thousands of times. And who's got

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time? Right?

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The same people who are watching Tom's plant.

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Okay.

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Yeah. Well, maybe it is true.

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So,

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George, what are we talking about?

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I wanna talk about this weird

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connection between the rise of IPv6

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in the world

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and the status of IPv6 against IPv4. But

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in particular,

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IP v six in the planned economy,

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which is not something we see a lot

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of in the developed Western world, but in

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the region I work in, the Asia Pacific,

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planned economies, they're actually a thing. Right? And

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so there's this weird

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join of two things coming together.

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So do you think

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oh, I don't wanna dive too deeply too

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quickly. Do you think

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that planned economies have been more successful or

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less at deploying IPv six?

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And I've

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Go ahead. Let's answer that one first.

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I actually think that they have been consistently

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more successful.

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And simultaneously,

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there are quirky corners where they've been really

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remarkably less successful. And this is high risk

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for them, which we can talk about a

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bit too. But I would say on balance,

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yes, they have been more successful.

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Okay. And would you say that's just because

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they have the power to say go do?

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And It has a component of that. And

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what do you think this says about v

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six and the actual

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requirements for v six in the real world.

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Oh, you have you have stepped into the

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big problem here. Because although

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six is alive and well and is a

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visible force in the global network, it's ubiquitously

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deployed at about 40%,

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60% in The USA,

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80 to 90 in India.

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And as we'll see in Vietnam and China

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are at really accelerating

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rates. It's about 45%

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in China and about 60 to 70 in

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Vietnam.

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The necessity

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of this activity,

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we've arrived at a really strange time that

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it is arguably

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less necessary

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than it ever was thought to be because

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of the success

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of gnats,

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carrier grade gnats,

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which are everywhere.

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Remind me of banana man. Yes. But anyway,

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that's

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that's I think it's in indicative

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George is trying to process Banana Man.

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Was that a West Coast TV show, like,

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on the search on something?

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Anyway,

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so I think it it might be indicative

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that

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when you when you see something that is

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widely deployed or being widely deployed in a

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planned economy,

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Maybe this is just my prejudice living in

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a world of unplanned economies.

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It always makes me suspicious that

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whatever is going on there

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is not

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really

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something that's necessary,

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but something rather that's being perceived as necessary

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by a small set of people within the

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planned economy.

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Rather than being drawn

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by actual user needs, it's being pushed

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in the other direction kinda makes me suspicious

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a little bit.

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Okay. So

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let's just talk a little bit about the

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nature of life in a planned economy.

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Central planning.

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Deep philosophy

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early in the morning.

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Central planning is about structural efficiency

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and

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something I'm going to call social equity.

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You want people to have adequate supplies

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of protein in their diet

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and you look at the distribution of protein

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across your diet and you notice that people

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who live in the coastal areas get huge

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amounts of fish and people who live in

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the northern areas get huge amounts of lamb.

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But you also notice that there's this weird

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asymmetry that the lamb eating regions don't have

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much fish, and the fish eating regions don't

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have much lamb. And so a planner would

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look at that and they might say,

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should we be doing some kind of equipoise

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here and get some lamb to the fish

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areas and some fish to the lamb areas?

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Or they might say, you know what? They're

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both first class protein. And the principal point

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here is that every adult should have something

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like 1.5

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grams per kilogramme of body weight protein per

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day. And if we can guarantee that kids

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in particular get enough protein to build healthy

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bodies, who cares where it comes from?

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But the point is,

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if you are aware you have a massive

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deficiency of protein in diet for a region

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in your economy,

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you're not doing your job as a government.

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You're creating problems. You're making structural deficits that

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are going to incur

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future burdens, health burdens, productivity burdens. So when

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it comes to things like food and national

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strategy for food and a national plan to

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say, by 2032,

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all children born in this economy will have

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a minimum quotient of protein in their diet

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either supplied through shops

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or because the state intervenes and provides protein

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supplements to ensure a healthy

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development of people. It's like it's pretty hard

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to say that's not a good idea. There's

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a real structural reason behind that to do

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with the nature of distribution of food

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in a society.

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Things aren't always equal. So I kind of

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feel like you can look at some things

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in a planned economy and it's incredibly easy

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to say, yeah, we should do that.

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But when it comes to an Internet,

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you actually kinda hit the nail on the

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head. Why do we have to have a

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national planned economy to decide to deploy v

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six?

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In whose interests? What's what's the side benefit

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here? So where did this drive come from?

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It's a really good question.

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Yeah. And, do you have any sense of

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the answer of that question? Or is it

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more like

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you don't live in those economies, so it's

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hard for you to know?

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Well, it's hard for me to know.

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And what I'm going to say is, frankly,

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personal opinion.

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And I've never worked for a government, and

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I've never consulted to government, so I have

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no real exposure to this. But my own

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sense of this

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is kind of mixed up in things that

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I've picked up talking to people who do

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live and work in these economies.

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And the principal point here is getting things

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into a national plan is not an easy

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goal.

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It's not like you ring up your local

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rep and say, hey, I think we should

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have a national plan for v six. And

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they say, good idea, Tom. Put it on

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the list. We're gonna have a national v

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six plan. And Tom goes off, writes it

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up, and hands it to Russ. And Russ

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stands up in the podium at the national

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planning session and says, we're committed to v

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six and it's done. It doesn't work that

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way.

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I've been told by people in these economies

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that just to get a ministerial

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directive that we should be discussing better v

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six address structure is like a two year

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investment in time. And that's something totally within

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the discretion of the minister. If you wanna

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change a national law, it's three to five

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years. And if you want to put something

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into the long range national plan,

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which goes out to 2032

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in the case of Vietnam and 2030 in

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China, you're talking a five plus year mission

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to bring this to the table. So if

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you want

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the National Economic Planning people to take your

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problem seriously, you have to get your ducks

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in a row

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or your plants. So and and and if

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you if you were to go to that

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minister or that person, whoever the the politician

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is, whatever you call that particular politician,

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to get this done,

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you have to come with a reason.

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You do. Yeah. And so

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now the question is, what would you give

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as a reason?

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Is it because it improves Internet access?

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I'm not convinced you could make that case

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any longer because of CG NAT.

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So here we are. We've arrived in a

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place where CG NATs work ubiquitously.

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But you have to think, to be in

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the national plan, we're actually rolling the dial

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back five or more years. And if you

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look at the life story

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of technologies

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to assist

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with scarcity in v four, it was a

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pretty mixed bag back in the deeper time.

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This was technology

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that imposed scaling limits on machines. It meant

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interrupting your supply chain if you were already

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constructing

277
00:11:01,745 --> 00:11:04,705
systems to design them to work properly in

278
00:11:04,705 --> 00:11:07,184
this environment. We were talking about three or

279
00:11:07,184 --> 00:11:07,684
four

280
00:11:08,065 --> 00:11:11,105
competing mechanisms to run dual stack v four,

281
00:11:11,105 --> 00:11:14,085
v six. The Chinese had designed their own.

282
00:11:14,225 --> 00:11:14,725
So

283
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,200
when you go back to when people would

284
00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,200
have been saying we should have this on

285
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,000
the national plan, it would not necessarily have

286
00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,480
been obvious that Nats were going to scale

287
00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,580
to the extent they have, particularly

288
00:11:27,279 --> 00:11:28,100
in the hardware

289
00:11:28,424 --> 00:11:30,825
that people in these economies are exposed to.

290
00:11:30,825 --> 00:11:33,784
Because the other side of this problem is

291
00:11:33,784 --> 00:11:34,924
that technology

292
00:11:35,384 --> 00:11:36,125
is now

293
00:11:36,504 --> 00:11:39,084
strategic for competition between economies.

294
00:11:39,384 --> 00:11:42,009
I think it probably always has been. But

295
00:11:42,009 --> 00:11:43,470
the thing is that increasingly,

296
00:11:44,170 --> 00:11:46,990
we're much more aware collectively in the networking

297
00:11:47,049 --> 00:11:48,990
space that the equipment, the boxes,

298
00:11:49,690 --> 00:11:50,350
are themselves

299
00:11:51,370 --> 00:11:54,414
units of economic force. And so the decision

300
00:11:54,414 --> 00:11:56,815
to say Huawei is not going to be

301
00:11:56,815 --> 00:11:59,534
deployed in our economy. There's a whole hoo

302
00:11:59,534 --> 00:12:00,034
about

303
00:12:00,654 --> 00:12:04,254
this being about spying and strategic asset control

304
00:12:04,254 --> 00:12:06,414
and risks in the time of dispute that

305
00:12:06,414 --> 00:12:08,970
they'd turn off the remote switch on Huawei.

306
00:12:09,830 --> 00:12:11,750
But you could also say that it's just

307
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:14,870
a straightforward economic play. It's no different to

308
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:17,769
a dispute about beef sales or fish sales.

309
00:12:18,309 --> 00:12:18,809
And

310
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:20,409
in these economies,

311
00:12:20,764 --> 00:12:22,144
in China and Vietnam,

312
00:12:22,605 --> 00:12:24,544
they have been very, very aware

313
00:12:25,085 --> 00:12:27,105
of the effects of external parties

314
00:12:27,644 --> 00:12:30,605
on their national planning initiatives. The exposure of

315
00:12:30,605 --> 00:12:31,745
risk in China

316
00:12:32,125 --> 00:12:34,960
to having technology withdrawn from availability,

317
00:12:35,580 --> 00:12:38,879
being denied access to aspects of emerging technology

318
00:12:39,179 --> 00:12:41,899
has been a significant problem for a very

319
00:12:41,899 --> 00:12:42,639
long time.

320
00:12:43,019 --> 00:12:46,059
So I think as a priming problem coming

321
00:12:46,059 --> 00:12:49,154
to people in the technology management space nationally,

322
00:12:49,535 --> 00:12:51,875
they were primed to receive a message.

323
00:12:52,735 --> 00:12:55,715
Six is something that we can operate

324
00:12:56,174 --> 00:12:59,154
for ourselves and construct a network for ourselves

325
00:12:59,615 --> 00:13:01,315
with lower risk of exposure

326
00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:04,139
to shortages of resources, particularly

327
00:13:04,519 --> 00:13:06,539
v four. And remember, historically,

328
00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:10,200
I think these economies have felt behind the

329
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,080
ball compared to developed Western economies that got

330
00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,480
their hands on a lot of v four

331
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,654
addressing resources very early in the game because

332
00:13:18,654 --> 00:13:19,394
they invested

333
00:13:19,774 --> 00:13:20,754
in that technology.

334
00:13:21,294 --> 00:13:24,174
So in a competitive sense, six was an

335
00:13:24,174 --> 00:13:24,674
opportunity

336
00:13:25,215 --> 00:13:27,315
to level a playing field internationally.

337
00:13:28,174 --> 00:13:30,195
And I think that was quite an attractive

338
00:13:30,254 --> 00:13:31,394
part of this argument.

339
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:33,399
Yeah. I agree with you that in the

340
00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:34,700
context of CGN,

341
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,659
you can't strictly say that it's necessarily

342
00:13:38,519 --> 00:13:41,080
a better network, but I think there's now

343
00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,879
good evidence that you have cheaper total cost

344
00:13:43,879 --> 00:13:44,539
of ownership

345
00:13:44,955 --> 00:13:47,035
when you deploy SIX. There are aspects of

346
00:13:47,035 --> 00:13:48,575
the SIX addressing model

347
00:13:48,955 --> 00:13:50,495
using things like Slack

348
00:13:51,035 --> 00:13:53,274
that actually mean you can scale out a

349
00:13:53,274 --> 00:13:56,575
rapid deployment with a very, very low management

350
00:13:56,715 --> 00:13:59,480
cost. Things kind of auto scale well, and

351
00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,200
it's kind of parallel to think probably you

352
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,440
remember, Ross, when you were building out big

353
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,679
networks. These were highly segmented hierarchical structures. Right?

354
00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,159
You had a lot of technological depth. Well,

355
00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:13,814
the network has flattened, and to a large

356
00:14:13,814 --> 00:14:16,454
extent, Ethernet has swept the world. We're all

357
00:14:16,454 --> 00:14:19,254
now running layer two Ethernet equivalents on fiber

358
00:14:19,254 --> 00:14:22,314
beds, and we're running virtual overlays of competing

359
00:14:22,534 --> 00:14:25,014
providers. And that's a world in which six

360
00:14:25,014 --> 00:14:26,794
can actually work really well.

361
00:14:27,289 --> 00:14:28,909
Six deployment to the desktop

362
00:14:29,370 --> 00:14:32,029
has actually worked out really well, and I

363
00:14:32,329 --> 00:14:35,049
I personally believe it's true. You can have

364
00:14:35,049 --> 00:14:38,029
a lower complete cost of ownership, particularly

365
00:14:38,569 --> 00:14:41,325
if you've been tracking and logging to the

366
00:14:41,325 --> 00:14:43,585
table, which is an incredibly

367
00:14:44,445 --> 00:14:45,585
contentious thing.

368
00:14:45,965 --> 00:14:47,644
So we have to kind of take a

369
00:14:47,644 --> 00:14:48,144
sidearm

370
00:14:48,685 --> 00:14:50,524
and talk about the fact that these are

371
00:14:50,524 --> 00:14:52,545
also economies that have had

372
00:14:52,925 --> 00:14:53,585
a concern

373
00:14:53,965 --> 00:14:57,079
about their ability to understand what do people

374
00:14:57,079 --> 00:14:59,240
really do on a network for a long

375
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,799
time. Now we could be down in the

376
00:15:01,799 --> 00:15:04,039
weeds arguing if this is state control and

377
00:15:04,039 --> 00:15:06,120
if it's good or bad. But the fact

378
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:06,620
remains,

379
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:08,839
this is a problem that a lot of

380
00:15:08,839 --> 00:15:09,339
economies

381
00:15:09,644 --> 00:15:10,144
internationally

382
00:15:10,845 --> 00:15:12,065
are thinking about now.

383
00:15:12,524 --> 00:15:13,585
And in particular,

384
00:15:14,045 --> 00:15:14,545
kids.

385
00:15:14,925 --> 00:15:16,945
What the heck have we done

386
00:15:17,245 --> 00:15:19,264
with kids and access to

387
00:15:19,725 --> 00:15:20,225
infinities

388
00:15:20,685 --> 00:15:23,750
of information, good and bad? And that track

389
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:26,410
and trace component of what are people seeing,

390
00:15:26,629 --> 00:15:28,170
what are they engaged in,

391
00:15:28,629 --> 00:15:31,429
for all you might question its value against

392
00:15:31,429 --> 00:15:31,929
freedom

393
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:34,170
and rights of access to anything,

394
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:37,875
in these economies, that's been a significant concern.

395
00:15:38,415 --> 00:15:41,715
You deploy c g NAT, that tracing ability

396
00:15:41,774 --> 00:15:43,695
between the thing that I do to start

397
00:15:43,695 --> 00:15:46,095
getting data and the thing that's done out

398
00:15:46,095 --> 00:15:48,335
on the other side, it goes through a

399
00:15:48,335 --> 00:15:49,555
confusing box

400
00:15:49,934 --> 00:15:52,115
that hides all of that detail.

401
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,960
The logging, the tracking, the management cost, that

402
00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,139
rises significantly. And, again,

403
00:15:58,679 --> 00:15:59,419
I suspect

404
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,519
this is attractive to people who live in

405
00:16:02,519 --> 00:16:04,460
the management of a planned economy.

406
00:16:05,184 --> 00:16:06,325
Yeah. Lower TCO,

407
00:16:06,705 --> 00:16:09,524
better track and trace, competitive equality

408
00:16:09,904 --> 00:16:11,205
with Western economies,

409
00:16:11,904 --> 00:16:14,705
ownership of their own national asset. There is

410
00:16:14,705 --> 00:16:17,684
a lot of attraction in that. Yeah. And

411
00:16:17,825 --> 00:16:19,445
I I also think that

412
00:16:20,429 --> 00:16:20,929
when,

413
00:16:22,190 --> 00:16:23,490
when you look at nations,

414
00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:26,370
there are two way two ways that nations

415
00:16:26,429 --> 00:16:28,929
seem to approach international competition

416
00:16:29,710 --> 00:16:30,769
between the countries,

417
00:16:31,389 --> 00:16:33,870
between countries themselves or between cultures or however

418
00:16:33,870 --> 00:16:35,889
you wanna put it. The first is

419
00:16:36,485 --> 00:16:39,544
we're going to win because we're unified,

420
00:16:40,004 --> 00:16:42,325
and we have a specific thing we're going

421
00:16:42,325 --> 00:16:42,904
to do.

422
00:16:43,524 --> 00:16:45,144
The other way to look at it is,

423
00:16:45,205 --> 00:16:47,044
well, our economy is gonna win because we

424
00:16:47,044 --> 00:16:49,445
create smart people, and the smart people are

425
00:16:49,445 --> 00:16:50,904
gonna go do smart things.

426
00:16:51,339 --> 00:16:53,100
And those smart things are we don't know

427
00:16:53,100 --> 00:16:54,779
what those are gonna be. We don't know

428
00:16:54,779 --> 00:16:56,059
what those smart things are gonna be in

429
00:16:56,059 --> 00:16:57,899
five years. We just know that we're gonna

430
00:16:57,899 --> 00:16:59,580
create smart people, and they're gonna go do

431
00:16:59,580 --> 00:17:02,299
that. And I think planned economies tend to

432
00:17:02,299 --> 00:17:03,759
run much more towards

433
00:17:04,394 --> 00:17:06,234
right or wrong, whatever. Let's not get into,

434
00:17:06,234 --> 00:17:08,794
like, this but they tend to run much

435
00:17:08,794 --> 00:17:11,775
more towards the, we're gonna have a plan.

436
00:17:11,994 --> 00:17:13,134
We're gonna outperform

437
00:17:13,595 --> 00:17:15,615
all the other economies by producing

438
00:17:16,794 --> 00:17:19,490
more of x or more of y.

439
00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:23,890
So I've never lived in The USA.

440
00:17:24,350 --> 00:17:26,830
But as someone who's worked with people who

441
00:17:26,830 --> 00:17:29,070
do live and work in The USA, it

442
00:17:29,070 --> 00:17:31,490
just amazes me how

443
00:17:32,029 --> 00:17:32,529
robust

444
00:17:32,894 --> 00:17:34,734
individuals are who are prepared to take a

445
00:17:34,734 --> 00:17:36,414
risk and go out and try and do

446
00:17:36,414 --> 00:17:36,914
something.

447
00:17:37,455 --> 00:17:40,015
And in the economies I lived in, The

448
00:17:40,015 --> 00:17:41,154
UK and Australia,

449
00:17:41,934 --> 00:17:43,315
if you try and fail,

450
00:17:43,695 --> 00:17:45,855
you've got a giant red letter on your

451
00:17:45,855 --> 00:17:48,275
forehead that you have to think hard about

452
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,720
for a long time. In The Netherlands, for

453
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,259
instance, it's incredibly

454
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,679
bad, calmer to have failed in a business

455
00:17:55,679 --> 00:17:59,140
enterprise. It implies that you reduced social capital

456
00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:00,819
for everyone who invested.

457
00:18:01,285 --> 00:18:02,265
And in America,

458
00:18:03,204 --> 00:18:05,204
it's like both sides of the deal, the

459
00:18:05,204 --> 00:18:08,085
VC side and the banking and finance side

460
00:18:08,085 --> 00:18:10,984
and the individual, they all say, hey.

461
00:18:11,365 --> 00:18:13,305
He tried. It was interesting.

462
00:18:13,769 --> 00:18:15,930
You know what? I like that you tried.

463
00:18:15,930 --> 00:18:18,349
I'm gonna give you some money. Try again.

464
00:18:18,730 --> 00:18:19,230
And

465
00:18:19,609 --> 00:18:21,789
that kind of risk taking emotion

466
00:18:22,090 --> 00:18:23,309
is incredibly

467
00:18:23,769 --> 00:18:24,269
strong

468
00:18:26,090 --> 00:18:27,070
in the Internet.

469
00:18:27,934 --> 00:18:30,674
You go into a nation economy of mutuality

470
00:18:31,535 --> 00:18:34,414
operating in a context where things are resource

471
00:18:34,414 --> 00:18:36,894
poor. They're doing a really rapid ramp up

472
00:18:36,894 --> 00:18:37,875
to try and achieve

473
00:18:38,414 --> 00:18:40,674
a middle class high levels of exposure

474
00:18:41,339 --> 00:18:42,960
to interesting technology.

475
00:18:43,579 --> 00:18:45,440
Risk taking is like

476
00:18:45,740 --> 00:18:47,440
a totally different level.

477
00:18:47,740 --> 00:18:48,480
The consequences

478
00:18:48,859 --> 00:18:50,640
of failure in these economies

479
00:18:51,179 --> 00:18:51,919
is significant.

480
00:18:52,460 --> 00:18:53,359
And I suspect

481
00:18:53,660 --> 00:18:55,039
that also plays

482
00:18:55,434 --> 00:18:57,275
to could we all agree on the rules

483
00:18:57,275 --> 00:18:59,115
here? And if the rules are it's v

484
00:18:59,115 --> 00:18:59,615
six,

485
00:19:00,075 --> 00:19:03,214
that's good for everyone because it's lower risk.

486
00:19:03,835 --> 00:19:06,075
Even if you or I might say, did

487
00:19:06,075 --> 00:19:08,234
you really have to do that? Is that

488
00:19:08,234 --> 00:19:09,375
really net beneficial?

489
00:19:09,914 --> 00:19:10,974
It's lower risk.

490
00:19:11,410 --> 00:19:13,809
Yeah. So that so that's an interesting contrast

491
00:19:13,809 --> 00:19:15,109
I never thought about. But

492
00:19:15,490 --> 00:19:17,809
the, I mean, really, one of the main

493
00:19:17,809 --> 00:19:19,829
things we're doing with protocols and interoperability

494
00:19:20,690 --> 00:19:23,410
is reducing operational risk. Right? We're making it

495
00:19:23,410 --> 00:19:23,910
possible

496
00:19:24,454 --> 00:19:26,295
for different people to work together. But the

497
00:19:26,295 --> 00:19:28,795
very economy or economies that produced

498
00:19:29,174 --> 00:19:29,835
the technology

499
00:19:30,295 --> 00:19:32,934
are the ones that embrace risk. I think

500
00:19:33,414 --> 00:19:36,315
Yeah. That's quite interesting. Ironic. It's quite dichotomous,

501
00:19:36,615 --> 00:19:37,049
isn't

502
00:19:37,850 --> 00:19:39,369
it? And you have to have risk to

503
00:19:39,369 --> 00:19:41,130
to innovate. You have to. I don't you

504
00:19:41,130 --> 00:19:43,529
know, it seems like it's you wouldn't be

505
00:19:43,529 --> 00:19:45,369
able to do it without it. And So

506
00:19:45,369 --> 00:19:47,450
let's let's have a let's let's explore a

507
00:19:47,450 --> 00:19:49,610
byway in the history of v six. There

508
00:19:49,610 --> 00:19:52,110
was a component of strong national competition,

509
00:19:52,934 --> 00:19:54,554
particularly in the ITU.

510
00:19:54,934 --> 00:19:56,234
And people would talk

511
00:19:56,694 --> 00:19:59,494
about fastest broadband economy, and they'd say 50

512
00:19:59,494 --> 00:20:02,954
megabits represents the goal of broadband. Which economy

513
00:20:03,014 --> 00:20:05,829
is going to be first to get 75%

514
00:20:05,829 --> 00:20:06,809
of their population

515
00:20:07,109 --> 00:20:07,929
on broadband?

516
00:20:08,869 --> 00:20:12,390
Well, some economies dived in whole scale. Korea,

517
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:14,089
for instance, did a massive

518
00:20:14,710 --> 00:20:17,029
national build out of a high speed network

519
00:20:17,029 --> 00:20:18,855
that that could deliver 40 megabit

520
00:20:19,154 --> 00:20:22,214
to virtually every person living in urban metro

521
00:20:22,275 --> 00:20:22,775
Korean

522
00:20:23,634 --> 00:20:26,914
locations. And they did it building their own

523
00:20:26,914 --> 00:20:28,454
customer premises equipment.

524
00:20:28,835 --> 00:20:30,914
So they had no balance of payments cost.

525
00:20:30,914 --> 00:20:33,649
They weren't incurring debt in the international markets.

526
00:20:34,109 --> 00:20:35,169
But here's the thing,

527
00:20:35,629 --> 00:20:37,950
they did it in a v four only

528
00:20:37,950 --> 00:20:38,450
technology.

529
00:20:39,069 --> 00:20:41,549
So when the market swung to say, let's

530
00:20:41,549 --> 00:20:43,009
do high speed v six,

531
00:20:43,549 --> 00:20:46,109
the Korean national economy sitting there going, wow,

532
00:20:46,109 --> 00:20:48,985
we just deployed CPE to every household with

533
00:20:48,985 --> 00:20:50,865
a ten to fifteen year life. We're three

534
00:20:50,865 --> 00:20:52,384
years in, and you're telling us we have

535
00:20:52,384 --> 00:20:55,345
to replace it? That is really incredibly bad,

536
00:20:55,345 --> 00:20:55,845
Juju.

537
00:20:56,625 --> 00:20:59,039
Yeah. Well, the same thing happened in, quote,

538
00:20:59,039 --> 00:21:02,240
unquote, developing or developed economies too. In The

539
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,100
United States and Europe in particular,

540
00:21:05,039 --> 00:21:06,660
we deployed a lot of copper

541
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:09,440
because it's what you could do. Right? It's

542
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,000
what you had. Nobody had fiber, so you

543
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,539
deploy copper to everywhere.

544
00:21:14,305 --> 00:21:17,045
And then you're in this position where, like,

545
00:21:17,424 --> 00:21:19,765
oh, twenty years on, the copper's dead.

546
00:21:20,224 --> 00:21:23,105
And you can't really afford to run fiber

547
00:21:23,105 --> 00:21:25,205
because the incremental cost is not incremental.

548
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:27,859
So now what do you do?

549
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,980
Oh, now I'm stuck in this copper world,

550
00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:32,960
and it only goes so fast. I mean,

551
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,880
we actually saw this in Greenland. They have

552
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,299
these little villages of twenty and thirty people.

553
00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:38,900
They've deployed copper.

554
00:21:39,595 --> 00:21:42,494
Copper exists in the ground in those places.

555
00:21:43,034 --> 00:21:45,274
And yet now you can't I mean, you

556
00:21:45,274 --> 00:21:47,134
can't afford to run fiber

557
00:21:47,434 --> 00:21:49,355
to a village of 30 people out to

558
00:21:49,355 --> 00:21:50,174
all the homes.

559
00:21:50,634 --> 00:21:51,934
So what do you do?

560
00:21:52,315 --> 00:21:54,789
Like, you're stuck in this situation where you

561
00:21:54,789 --> 00:21:57,210
can't maintain the copper forever. It just degrades.

562
00:21:57,669 --> 00:22:00,230
You can't deploy new copper, and you can't

563
00:22:00,230 --> 00:22:01,450
deploy new fiber.

564
00:22:02,149 --> 00:22:04,089
So places that used to have access

565
00:22:04,789 --> 00:22:07,849
are basically losing that access that they've had

566
00:22:08,284 --> 00:22:11,164
for twenty years, and it looks really, really

567
00:22:11,164 --> 00:22:12,224
bad on paper.

568
00:22:13,085 --> 00:22:14,464
So this quality

569
00:22:14,845 --> 00:22:18,224
about first adopter, second adopter, and the behaviors

570
00:22:18,284 --> 00:22:20,704
that expose when you do that, it's absolutely

571
00:22:20,924 --> 00:22:21,424
fascinating.

572
00:22:21,884 --> 00:22:23,265
Because the Korean experience

573
00:22:23,804 --> 00:22:25,609
was was that they were able to achieve

574
00:22:25,750 --> 00:22:28,410
a specific goal. They got a national broadband

575
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:31,349
economy off the ground really quickly, but they

576
00:22:31,349 --> 00:22:32,570
ran straight into

577
00:22:32,950 --> 00:22:33,609
the complexities

578
00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:35,910
of there is not enough v four in

579
00:22:35,910 --> 00:22:37,450
the Korean national Internet

580
00:22:37,875 --> 00:22:40,295
to supply a unique address to every person.

581
00:22:40,595 --> 00:22:41,734
They had to deploy

582
00:22:42,115 --> 00:22:44,195
in the context of running v four with

583
00:22:44,195 --> 00:22:46,195
NAT. And the thing that you would do

584
00:22:46,195 --> 00:22:48,674
in that situation in a modern parlance is

585
00:22:48,674 --> 00:22:51,039
you'd say, great. We'll dual stack this, and

586
00:22:51,039 --> 00:22:53,119
we'll run v six to the people who

587
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,940
can. And we'll keep our v four supply

588
00:22:56,079 --> 00:22:58,720
for the limited amount of overlay and do

589
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,339
some kind of natting technology.

590
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:02,740
Well, there's a problem here.

591
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,500
The switching fabric

592
00:23:05,005 --> 00:23:07,244
turns out to have an awful lot more

593
00:23:07,244 --> 00:23:09,404
to do with the architecture of the network

594
00:23:09,404 --> 00:23:11,565
layer than people want to say. And if

595
00:23:11,565 --> 00:23:14,365
you've built out a CPE scheme that is

596
00:23:14,365 --> 00:23:17,164
v four only, you've probably built out a

597
00:23:17,164 --> 00:23:17,664
distribution

598
00:23:18,044 --> 00:23:18,544
network

599
00:23:19,090 --> 00:23:22,230
and a backbone network that has strong components

600
00:23:22,690 --> 00:23:24,930
of v four only. And you or I

601
00:23:24,930 --> 00:23:26,930
might say, well, hey. They're all packets. Right?

602
00:23:26,930 --> 00:23:28,690
It should be easy to just put another

603
00:23:28,690 --> 00:23:30,230
layer two framing in this.

604
00:23:30,610 --> 00:23:32,924
No. No. No. No. No. It is not

605
00:23:32,924 --> 00:23:35,105
easy to put a new arbitrary

606
00:23:35,484 --> 00:23:36,544
layer two encoding

607
00:23:37,005 --> 00:23:39,825
in a stack designed for a single protocol.

608
00:23:40,365 --> 00:23:43,404
Yeah. This stuff gets complicated. Yeah. Especially when

609
00:23:43,404 --> 00:23:44,625
you think about satellite

610
00:23:45,164 --> 00:23:46,304
or you think about

611
00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:49,299
any kind of long haul fiber circuits or

612
00:23:49,299 --> 00:23:50,359
undersea cables,

613
00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:53,299
the framing in all of those repeaters and

614
00:23:53,299 --> 00:23:54,920
all those pieces and bits

615
00:23:55,460 --> 00:23:57,940
Yeah. They're hard baked into the hardware because

616
00:23:57,940 --> 00:24:00,819
you can't get enough switching speed in software

617
00:24:00,819 --> 00:24:02,815
based switching to do any of this. So

618
00:24:02,815 --> 00:24:05,615
you've baked in certain packet and not just

619
00:24:05,615 --> 00:24:08,195
packet sizes. Packet sizes aren't the real problem.

620
00:24:08,335 --> 00:24:10,335
The real problem is the header size and

621
00:24:10,335 --> 00:24:12,734
your look at tables. Right? How many how

622
00:24:12,734 --> 00:24:14,335
many bits do you have to latch off

623
00:24:14,335 --> 00:24:16,335
a packet to be able to read the

624
00:24:16,335 --> 00:24:18,320
next thing to do with it and the

625
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,400
assumptions that are built there? There is a

626
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,140
brilliant talk John Scudder gave to the IEPG

627
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,840
about ten years ago when he talked about

628
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,575
these trade offs between hardware and software path

629
00:24:28,654 --> 00:24:29,554
and the consequences

630
00:24:29,855 --> 00:24:32,894
of saying, I'd like to do a 128

631
00:24:32,894 --> 00:24:35,054
bit read to decide to do my packet

632
00:24:35,054 --> 00:24:37,454
routing, and just what that means. It's a

633
00:24:37,454 --> 00:24:38,274
great talk.

634
00:24:38,575 --> 00:24:40,589
So the thing is that

635
00:24:41,150 --> 00:24:43,950
economics isn't like a static situation. It's not

636
00:24:43,950 --> 00:24:45,869
a monopoly board where you get to tear

637
00:24:45,869 --> 00:24:47,549
it up and start the game again to

638
00:24:47,549 --> 00:24:48,529
see what changes.

639
00:24:48,990 --> 00:24:50,750
You're stuck in the world that you live

640
00:24:50,750 --> 00:24:51,250
in.

641
00:24:51,789 --> 00:24:53,730
So China and Vietnam

642
00:24:54,894 --> 00:24:56,974
were somewhat behind the ball in terms of

643
00:24:56,974 --> 00:24:58,194
their capital investment,

644
00:24:58,654 --> 00:25:00,575
and you would think that that's a problem.

645
00:25:00,575 --> 00:25:02,674
But if you come to this second deployment

646
00:25:02,815 --> 00:25:03,315
effect,

647
00:25:03,615 --> 00:25:05,714
they had the benefit of all the negative

648
00:25:05,775 --> 00:25:08,840
experiences other people had. And they were able

649
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,240
to put in their spec sheet that v

650
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,080
six stack that you used to have as

651
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,759
a tick box item, but you were never

652
00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:17,240
going to turn on. We now know that

653
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,640
the stack works. We'd like that fully enabled

654
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,274
in management when we deploy. This new four

655
00:25:22,274 --> 00:25:24,754
g network, it's gonna be dual stack day

656
00:25:24,754 --> 00:25:26,835
one. The five g network, it's going to

657
00:25:26,835 --> 00:25:28,835
be v six only with a v four

658
00:25:28,835 --> 00:25:29,335
overlay.

659
00:25:29,875 --> 00:25:31,174
Future g six,

660
00:25:31,875 --> 00:25:33,809
who knows? But the thing is, they were

661
00:25:33,809 --> 00:25:34,869
able to deploy

662
00:25:35,649 --> 00:25:37,970
high speed network technology in the case of

663
00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:39,589
China mobile segment,

664
00:25:39,890 --> 00:25:43,429
Vietnam, their fiber fabric, their national fiber plan.

665
00:25:43,569 --> 00:25:46,289
They were able to avoid the pitfalls Korea

666
00:25:46,289 --> 00:25:48,630
had walked into. They deployed equipment

667
00:25:48,934 --> 00:25:51,515
that was late stage dual stack capable,

668
00:25:51,974 --> 00:25:53,035
and they were able

669
00:25:53,414 --> 00:25:55,734
to leverage all of the lessons of other

670
00:25:55,734 --> 00:25:57,595
people to do an phenomenally

671
00:25:58,054 --> 00:25:58,954
rapid deployment.

672
00:25:59,414 --> 00:25:59,914
Vietnam,

673
00:26:00,615 --> 00:26:03,095
they actually had like a caucus of all

674
00:26:03,095 --> 00:26:03,809
of the ISP's,

675
00:26:04,690 --> 00:26:06,950
And they chose FPT Telecom

676
00:26:07,570 --> 00:26:10,690
as the lead provider nationally to go into

677
00:26:10,690 --> 00:26:13,410
their own plan and put out a sixth

678
00:26:13,410 --> 00:26:16,070
deployment and lead the way. And then VIRTEL

679
00:26:16,130 --> 00:26:16,870
and VNPT

680
00:26:18,025 --> 00:26:20,904
leveraged all of the experiences they had and

681
00:26:20,904 --> 00:26:23,224
were able to bring things up. China, it

682
00:26:23,224 --> 00:26:25,065
was a little more different. You had China

683
00:26:25,065 --> 00:26:26,444
Mobile, China Unicom,

684
00:26:26,825 --> 00:26:27,964
and China Telecom.

685
00:26:28,265 --> 00:26:29,484
And the three of them

686
00:26:30,025 --> 00:26:30,525
run

687
00:26:31,099 --> 00:26:34,320
a federated network. Each of them operates effectively

688
00:26:34,380 --> 00:26:37,200
a local cell in each of the provinces

689
00:26:37,340 --> 00:26:38,000
of China.

690
00:26:38,460 --> 00:26:40,940
And so they had to make decisions how

691
00:26:40,940 --> 00:26:43,580
were they would deploy into a two tier

692
00:26:43,580 --> 00:26:44,080
hierarchy.

693
00:26:44,404 --> 00:26:46,345
They didn't have a single point decision.

694
00:26:46,804 --> 00:26:48,804
They were able to look at large metro

695
00:26:48,804 --> 00:26:51,224
areas that were doing a rollover in, say,

696
00:26:51,524 --> 00:26:52,424
China Unicom's

697
00:26:53,044 --> 00:26:54,105
four g deployment.

698
00:26:54,484 --> 00:26:56,884
They were able to do massive v six

699
00:26:56,884 --> 00:26:59,784
rollout for that market segment almost immediately.

700
00:27:00,450 --> 00:27:02,289
But then you get to other parts of

701
00:27:02,289 --> 00:27:05,730
the national Chinese network, perhaps further west, where

702
00:27:05,730 --> 00:27:07,409
things are a lot more sparse, a lot

703
00:27:07,409 --> 00:27:08,390
more like Greenland.

704
00:27:08,769 --> 00:27:12,049
The technology decisions there have to last fifteen

705
00:27:12,049 --> 00:27:13,109
or twenty years.

706
00:27:13,490 --> 00:27:15,750
Things are looking a little different.

707
00:27:16,285 --> 00:27:18,365
Yeah. That's the same in the Midwest US,

708
00:27:18,365 --> 00:27:20,865
by the way. Yeah. I mean, technology

709
00:27:21,164 --> 00:27:22,704
is not evenly distributed.

710
00:27:23,164 --> 00:27:26,365
Yeah. It's not. Yeah. Another interesting thing about

711
00:27:26,365 --> 00:27:29,490
this that that occurs to me is that

712
00:27:29,630 --> 00:27:32,690
there was a solution designed for this

713
00:27:32,990 --> 00:27:33,490
problem

714
00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:36,369
many way, way back

715
00:27:36,750 --> 00:27:37,650
called ATM

716
00:27:38,509 --> 00:27:40,690
and then which rolled over into MPLS

717
00:27:41,555 --> 00:27:43,394
with the idea being that you would have

718
00:27:43,394 --> 00:27:44,535
a fixed label.

719
00:27:45,075 --> 00:27:47,315
And therefore, you could put v six or

720
00:27:47,315 --> 00:27:50,755
v four on top of any switching hardware

721
00:27:50,755 --> 00:27:53,015
because the switching hardware became transport,

722
00:27:54,059 --> 00:27:55,599
basically transport agnostic,

723
00:27:56,059 --> 00:27:58,220
and it was all hop by hop. And

724
00:27:58,220 --> 00:28:00,240
so you switch your label every hop.

725
00:28:00,619 --> 00:28:02,460
All the work goes to the control plane

726
00:28:02,460 --> 00:28:03,599
to figure it out

727
00:28:04,140 --> 00:28:06,220
where things are on the transport side and

728
00:28:06,220 --> 00:28:06,720
everything.

729
00:28:07,024 --> 00:28:09,204
It makes the control plane much more complex,

730
00:28:09,825 --> 00:28:11,605
but it was actually designed

731
00:28:12,065 --> 00:28:15,024
in part to solve this problem. And it

732
00:28:15,024 --> 00:28:16,944
came not out of v four v six.

733
00:28:16,944 --> 00:28:19,284
It came out of, believe it or not,

734
00:28:19,664 --> 00:28:20,164
VINES,

735
00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:22,769
I I IPX,

736
00:28:23,630 --> 00:28:26,289
and IP, and OSI. Yeah.

737
00:28:27,150 --> 00:28:29,390
So the other part of this story, which

738
00:28:29,390 --> 00:28:30,529
I find fascinating,

739
00:28:31,309 --> 00:28:34,116
is that ATM, when people like you, who

740
00:28:34,116 --> 00:28:34,559
were functional engineers in the field, it wasn't

741
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:35,250
necessarily your happy time,

742
00:28:36,974 --> 00:28:39,075
functional engineers in the field, it wasn't necessarily

743
00:28:39,535 --> 00:28:42,174
your happy time deploying ATM networks. These were

744
00:28:42,174 --> 00:28:45,234
quite strange beasts. I only worked very briefly

745
00:28:45,295 --> 00:28:47,535
on an ATM switch, and I found it

746
00:28:47,535 --> 00:28:50,095
a very confronting and strange machine to work

747
00:28:50,095 --> 00:28:52,369
with. There was this idea there was gonna

748
00:28:52,369 --> 00:28:54,069
be this thing called the NNI,

749
00:28:54,369 --> 00:28:56,210
the number scheme that was gonna be the

750
00:28:56,210 --> 00:28:58,150
way to do this label forwarding.

751
00:28:58,769 --> 00:29:00,769
And people just ran for the hills and

752
00:29:00,769 --> 00:29:03,509
did their own schemes. There was no constructed

753
00:29:03,890 --> 00:29:06,515
state because of the lack of central planning

754
00:29:06,515 --> 00:29:08,755
amongst the people who were deploying this to

755
00:29:08,755 --> 00:29:09,494
do interprovider

756
00:29:09,875 --> 00:29:12,134
NNI. Whereas if you look at that deployment

757
00:29:12,595 --> 00:29:13,894
in a planned economy,

758
00:29:14,355 --> 00:29:16,115
that would have been like their day one

759
00:29:16,115 --> 00:29:16,615
decision.

760
00:29:16,994 --> 00:29:19,799
China Unicom's number one. China Telecom's is number

761
00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:22,519
two. China Mobile is number three. The state

762
00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:25,399
wireless is number four. The airline's number five.

763
00:29:25,399 --> 00:29:27,799
They'd have just handed them out rationally in

764
00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:29,880
some scheme, and the whole thing would have

765
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:30,380
worked.

766
00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:32,835
The other thing I like is that when

767
00:29:32,835 --> 00:29:35,394
the ATM chip owners realized we weren't gonna

768
00:29:35,394 --> 00:29:38,275
get ATM cards in our IBM PCs at

769
00:29:38,275 --> 00:29:38,775
home,

770
00:29:39,394 --> 00:29:41,394
they actually have to find a market for

771
00:29:41,394 --> 00:29:42,134
this chip.

772
00:29:42,595 --> 00:29:45,414
And the market they found was home routers.

773
00:29:45,954 --> 00:29:48,829
The logic that drives ADSL and VDSL

774
00:29:49,289 --> 00:29:50,190
is leveraging

775
00:29:50,730 --> 00:29:54,269
the same FPGA and chip designs that ATM

776
00:29:54,410 --> 00:29:55,230
run on.

777
00:29:55,609 --> 00:29:58,089
It's an Fantastic. And another market they came

778
00:29:58,089 --> 00:30:00,109
up with, a lot of people don't realize,

779
00:30:00,490 --> 00:30:03,964
is router is is chassis router backplanes.

780
00:30:05,144 --> 00:30:05,644
Yeah.

781
00:30:06,424 --> 00:30:08,765
Cell based chassis router backplanes

782
00:30:09,065 --> 00:30:10,365
operate on the same

783
00:30:10,744 --> 00:30:12,184
and we don't have a lot of cell

784
00:30:12,184 --> 00:30:14,424
based routers anymore that I know of. But

785
00:30:14,424 --> 00:30:16,585
way back, we had tons of cell based

786
00:30:16,585 --> 00:30:17,404
back backplanes.

787
00:30:18,490 --> 00:30:19,549
Yeah. And

788
00:30:19,849 --> 00:30:21,549
that was all basically ATM.

789
00:30:21,929 --> 00:30:24,250
That was it wasn't ATM per se, but

790
00:30:24,250 --> 00:30:24,829
it was

791
00:30:25,529 --> 00:30:28,349
pretty much I mean, even the Cisco 8,500

792
00:30:28,730 --> 00:30:30,890
was nothing but an ATM switch with Ethernet

793
00:30:31,210 --> 00:30:31,710
Yeah.

794
00:30:32,169 --> 00:30:34,654
Line cards. So yeah. So so

795
00:30:35,034 --> 00:30:38,075
Tom, you've run a network. Right? Mhmm. You've

796
00:30:38,075 --> 00:30:38,894
run a few.

797
00:30:39,755 --> 00:30:41,615
And I guess you got a few reporting

798
00:30:41,674 --> 00:30:42,174
lines.

799
00:30:43,274 --> 00:30:45,914
Mhmm. And I'm guessing that you've occasionally had

800
00:30:45,914 --> 00:30:47,054
people in suits,

801
00:30:48,210 --> 00:30:50,690
from the Dilbert cartoon saying to you, if

802
00:30:50,690 --> 00:30:52,470
you can't measure it,

803
00:30:52,769 --> 00:30:55,349
you can't know it or something equally

804
00:30:55,730 --> 00:30:56,230
asinine.

805
00:30:56,929 --> 00:30:57,909
Yep. Yep.

806
00:30:58,450 --> 00:31:01,190
Well, it just so happens with a national

807
00:31:01,250 --> 00:31:04,035
plan, there's a second burden coming along the

808
00:31:04,035 --> 00:31:04,934
story here.

809
00:31:05,315 --> 00:31:08,295
Because with national plans, you have to measure

810
00:31:08,355 --> 00:31:09,575
progress to plan.

811
00:31:10,515 --> 00:31:11,015
Yeah.

812
00:31:11,714 --> 00:31:12,535
It becomes

813
00:31:13,234 --> 00:31:13,734
enormously

814
00:31:14,194 --> 00:31:14,694
important

815
00:31:15,339 --> 00:31:15,919
to understand

816
00:31:16,299 --> 00:31:17,279
your trajectory

817
00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:18,559
as a player

818
00:31:18,859 --> 00:31:20,159
in the national plan.

819
00:31:20,539 --> 00:31:21,839
So if you've spent

820
00:31:22,379 --> 00:31:25,759
five years with your co peers in industry

821
00:31:25,980 --> 00:31:28,399
arguing that there should be a national cohesive

822
00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:30,799
plan to deploy IPv6 by

823
00:31:31,154 --> 00:31:32,115
2030

824
00:31:32,115 --> 00:31:34,055
across the whole of Mainland China,

825
00:31:34,994 --> 00:31:35,494
sometime

826
00:31:35,875 --> 00:31:36,375
around

827
00:31:37,315 --> 00:31:38,215
'25,

828
00:31:38,434 --> 00:31:39,335
'26,

829
00:31:39,394 --> 00:31:40,275
'27,

830
00:31:40,275 --> 00:31:42,434
you're going to be asked to account for

831
00:31:42,434 --> 00:31:43,654
your rate of uptake.

832
00:31:43,955 --> 00:31:45,869
And people are gonna put three dots dots

833
00:31:45,869 --> 00:31:46,609
on a

834
00:31:46,910 --> 00:31:49,630
line and draw the line between them and

835
00:31:49,630 --> 00:31:52,130
see if the trajectory at 2030

836
00:31:52,750 --> 00:31:54,769
is gonna do the do. Right?

837
00:31:56,670 --> 00:31:57,170
So

838
00:31:57,865 --> 00:32:00,845
this question, how are they doing to plan,

839
00:32:01,224 --> 00:32:04,125
is a really hot topic.

840
00:32:06,265 --> 00:32:08,024
And by the way, this is not this

841
00:32:08,024 --> 00:32:08,924
is not unique

842
00:32:09,224 --> 00:32:10,444
to planned economies.

843
00:32:10,829 --> 00:32:12,609
It's just that we handle it differently

844
00:32:13,470 --> 00:32:15,490
in non planned or unplanned economies.

845
00:32:16,029 --> 00:32:17,630
But we don't do very much of it

846
00:32:17,630 --> 00:32:20,109
today, but but we used to where you'd

847
00:32:20,109 --> 00:32:20,849
see pictures

848
00:32:21,549 --> 00:32:22,049
of

849
00:32:22,589 --> 00:32:25,194
the White Star Lines type people who ran

850
00:32:25,194 --> 00:32:25,694
Titanic.

851
00:32:26,075 --> 00:32:28,075
And they would have all of their cruise

852
00:32:28,075 --> 00:32:28,575
ships

853
00:32:29,595 --> 00:32:31,934
lined up coming out of New York Harbor

854
00:32:32,315 --> 00:32:33,054
or something,

855
00:32:33,355 --> 00:32:35,514
like, equally spaced, you know, like, in this

856
00:32:35,514 --> 00:32:36,654
really cool formation.

857
00:32:37,034 --> 00:32:38,474
And people could look at the picture and

858
00:32:38,474 --> 00:32:41,930
go, oh, look how much progress they've made.

859
00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:44,009
Oh, look at all those ships.

860
00:32:44,309 --> 00:32:45,990
And the same thing with railroads. They did

861
00:32:45,990 --> 00:32:47,670
the same thing with railroads. They did a

862
00:32:47,670 --> 00:32:50,630
they did a 32 switch or 32 track

863
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:53,224
switching yard, and they put 32

864
00:32:53,224 --> 00:32:56,524
big, big engines pulling long trains

865
00:32:56,825 --> 00:32:59,565
that would never actually fit in that yard

866
00:32:59,625 --> 00:33:01,565
unless you spent a lot of time

867
00:33:01,944 --> 00:33:03,085
jockeying things

868
00:33:03,384 --> 00:33:05,304
to make it work. And then they take

869
00:33:05,304 --> 00:33:07,559
the picture. It's like, oh, look at that.

870
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:09,640
So it becomes a lot. The airline would

871
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,160
have the 747

872
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,519
and the 737

873
00:33:12,519 --> 00:33:13,900
and the 777

874
00:33:14,039 --> 00:33:17,000
flying side by side. Yep. Exactly. For sure.

875
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,059
Yeah. So

876
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:19,100
that message

877
00:33:19,774 --> 00:33:22,815
is about confidence and ability to hit target,

878
00:33:22,815 --> 00:33:24,674
and it's directed at the shareholder.

879
00:33:25,134 --> 00:33:27,075
Yeah. It's directed at the institutional

880
00:33:27,375 --> 00:33:29,534
shareholder and the people who paid the money

881
00:33:29,534 --> 00:33:31,694
to get you where you're going. It's to

882
00:33:31,694 --> 00:33:34,115
maintain belief that you're gonna hit target

883
00:33:34,494 --> 00:33:35,234
and pay

884
00:33:35,910 --> 00:33:37,130
on your stockholders

885
00:33:37,590 --> 00:33:39,670
what you committed to do. You can cover

886
00:33:39,670 --> 00:33:41,830
your bonds. Right? That's how we deal with

887
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:42,809
it in the West.

888
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:45,610
So in the planned economy,

889
00:33:46,549 --> 00:33:48,470
it's kind of different. I mean, you still

890
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:49,369
have stockholders

891
00:33:49,694 --> 00:33:50,194
because

892
00:33:50,575 --> 00:33:51,154
they're all planned

893
00:33:51,694 --> 00:33:54,654
sort of mixed market economies and they still

894
00:33:54,654 --> 00:33:55,554
have shareholders.

895
00:33:55,855 --> 00:33:58,575
But the people you're reporting to aren't the

896
00:33:58,575 --> 00:33:59,075
shareholders,

897
00:33:59,454 --> 00:34:00,434
they're the government.

898
00:34:01,134 --> 00:34:02,157
And failure is not a comfortable word around

899
00:34:02,157 --> 00:34:03,234
this table. It's not.

900
00:34:16,099 --> 00:34:16,599
Road.

901
00:34:18,534 --> 00:34:20,054
So, Tom, you were gonna jump in there

902
00:34:20,054 --> 00:34:22,375
a second ago. Oh, I just so, I

903
00:34:22,375 --> 00:34:24,295
mean, it's not like planned economies are the

904
00:34:24,295 --> 00:34:26,454
only people who ever made mandates. Right? The,

905
00:34:26,695 --> 00:34:29,414
Department of Defense in The United States has

906
00:34:29,414 --> 00:34:31,735
done this and readjusted a few times when

907
00:34:31,894 --> 00:34:33,655
Yeah. You know, when we're working on that.

908
00:34:33,735 --> 00:34:36,590
Change the plan, but changing the plan has

909
00:34:36,590 --> 00:34:37,090
consequence.

910
00:34:37,789 --> 00:34:38,289
So

911
00:34:38,829 --> 00:34:40,910
this is a niche that I have a

912
00:34:40,910 --> 00:34:43,570
very small amount a small amount of involvement

913
00:34:43,630 --> 00:34:46,910
in because I have worked with Geoff Huston

914
00:34:46,910 --> 00:34:47,755
and APNIC

915
00:34:48,375 --> 00:34:49,195
Labs building

916
00:34:49,574 --> 00:34:51,735
the measurement system that is being used to

917
00:34:51,735 --> 00:34:54,215
track I p v six uptake worldwide. And

918
00:34:54,215 --> 00:34:56,775
it's based on a really simple technique. It's

919
00:34:56,775 --> 00:34:59,190
blocks. It's the measurement blocks in adverts.

920
00:34:59,750 --> 00:35:02,150
You see an advert. There's a blot behind

921
00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:04,630
it. If you can fetch that blot, you

922
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:06,630
saw the advert. Well, if you take that

923
00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:08,630
technology and you make the blot be a

924
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:11,289
dual stack and you measure how many people

925
00:35:11,295 --> 00:35:13,694
come on v six, you're tracking how many

926
00:35:13,694 --> 00:35:15,315
people can do six.

927
00:35:15,855 --> 00:35:17,454
And on 25,000,000

928
00:35:17,454 --> 00:35:18,514
adverts worldwide

929
00:35:18,815 --> 00:35:21,534
a day, you're getting a fairly accurate sense

930
00:35:21,534 --> 00:35:23,214
of what's going on in the world with

931
00:35:23,214 --> 00:35:23,670
v

932
00:35:24,389 --> 00:35:26,809
six. And the problem for the planned economies

933
00:35:27,269 --> 00:35:29,769
is that those charts from Akamai

934
00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:31,289
and from Cloudflare

935
00:35:31,670 --> 00:35:33,929
and from Google and from Apenic,

936
00:35:34,469 --> 00:35:35,449
they all agree.

937
00:35:35,909 --> 00:35:37,989
I'm not saying they agree a 100%,

938
00:35:37,989 --> 00:35:40,594
but in the main, they all agree. And

939
00:35:40,594 --> 00:35:43,155
what they're saying about China is you are

940
00:35:43,155 --> 00:35:45,875
not on track to make your goal of

941
00:35:45,875 --> 00:35:48,454
deployment of a fully national v six fabric

942
00:35:48,514 --> 00:35:49,894
with no v four dependencies

943
00:35:50,514 --> 00:35:51,954
by 2030.

944
00:35:51,954 --> 00:35:52,949
You're off base.

945
00:35:53,429 --> 00:35:54,789
And by the way, this is this is

946
00:35:54,789 --> 00:35:56,010
the problem with the measurements

947
00:35:56,309 --> 00:35:57,929
to me, is that

948
00:35:58,469 --> 00:36:00,650
we talk about Tom was talking about DOD.

949
00:36:01,030 --> 00:36:02,969
I I was in the US Air Force

950
00:36:03,429 --> 00:36:03,929
when

951
00:36:04,389 --> 00:36:06,889
the DOD said OSI only.

952
00:36:07,510 --> 00:36:07,994
Yep.

953
00:36:08,875 --> 00:36:10,414
And you know how that works.

954
00:36:11,835 --> 00:36:13,055
That didn't work.

955
00:36:13,675 --> 00:36:16,235
No. Absolutely. That was me. I was coding

956
00:36:16,235 --> 00:36:18,555
that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. The same thing when

957
00:36:18,555 --> 00:36:20,414
they said we're only gonna do ADA.

958
00:36:20,715 --> 00:36:22,795
No more any other languages you're gonna do

959
00:36:22,795 --> 00:36:25,340
ADA. So you'd get these you'd get these

960
00:36:25,340 --> 00:36:26,480
pieces of software.

961
00:36:26,940 --> 00:36:29,019
And at the very beginning of the eight

962
00:36:29,099 --> 00:36:31,099
of the of the software, the the code,

963
00:36:31,099 --> 00:36:33,119
it would say, pound define

964
00:36:33,420 --> 00:36:33,920
c,

965
00:36:34,780 --> 00:36:36,140
and there will be a bunch of c

966
00:36:36,140 --> 00:36:36,585
code.

967
00:36:37,144 --> 00:36:39,724
And then it would say pound undefined c.

968
00:36:40,425 --> 00:36:42,744
And then you could compile it in an

969
00:36:42,744 --> 00:36:45,464
ADa compiler so it counted as eight aligned

970
00:36:45,464 --> 00:36:46,125
to code.

971
00:36:46,744 --> 00:36:49,885
Yeah. That's what that's what actually happens.

972
00:36:50,630 --> 00:36:51,530
So the temptation

973
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:53,769
in any measurement exercise

974
00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:57,110
is to track measurement plan and show that

975
00:36:57,110 --> 00:36:59,750
you are on plan because the measurements confirm

976
00:36:59,750 --> 00:37:02,469
it. And if you ask people who work

977
00:37:02,469 --> 00:37:04,010
for large national providers

978
00:37:04,710 --> 00:37:07,795
what their v six deployment stats look like,

979
00:37:08,255 --> 00:37:10,335
of course, they're going to point to the

980
00:37:10,335 --> 00:37:13,135
large metro areas with a modern five g

981
00:37:13,135 --> 00:37:16,275
deployment of mobile, which is 98%

982
00:37:16,494 --> 00:37:18,894
active in v six and say, look at

983
00:37:18,894 --> 00:37:20,335
us. We're 98%

984
00:37:20,335 --> 00:37:23,420
active in v six. Nobody says, yeah. But

985
00:37:23,420 --> 00:37:25,199
what about your rural and remote?

986
00:37:25,739 --> 00:37:27,119
What about the other customer?

987
00:37:27,579 --> 00:37:30,299
Is that, like, 20% of your customer base?

988
00:37:30,299 --> 00:37:32,780
Is that 50%, or is it actually only

989
00:37:32,780 --> 00:37:35,260
5%? No. No. No. We're 98%

990
00:37:35,260 --> 00:37:38,224
v six. You are, but in highly

991
00:37:38,684 --> 00:37:39,184
constrained

992
00:37:40,045 --> 00:37:40,545
context.

993
00:37:41,804 --> 00:37:42,304
And

994
00:37:42,924 --> 00:37:45,324
the second part of the measurement problem is

995
00:37:45,324 --> 00:37:46,385
that measurement

996
00:37:47,164 --> 00:37:48,784
comes with error bars.

997
00:37:49,829 --> 00:37:52,390
And when you have a planned economy that

998
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:54,570
has a very strong sense of boundary

999
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:56,170
around its outside

1000
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:59,610
and polices packet flow across that boundary,

1001
00:38:00,390 --> 00:38:03,050
not all measurement techniques can do an equalised

1002
00:38:03,190 --> 00:38:05,565
job of dealing with what they're seeing.

1003
00:38:05,964 --> 00:38:08,525
So there's a component of can we even

1004
00:38:08,525 --> 00:38:09,025
measure

1005
00:38:09,565 --> 00:38:11,344
going into some of these places?

1006
00:38:12,844 --> 00:38:13,344
And

1007
00:38:14,045 --> 00:38:16,864
it's not a totally happy story.

1008
00:38:18,844 --> 00:38:21,150
I'd love to think that we were going

1009
00:38:21,150 --> 00:38:23,329
to be able to say this is definitely

1010
00:38:23,550 --> 00:38:25,789
going to work because I don't like the

1011
00:38:25,789 --> 00:38:27,789
idea that these people are going to have

1012
00:38:27,789 --> 00:38:30,429
sunk a large amount of effort to deploy

1013
00:38:30,429 --> 00:38:32,609
something that doesn't achieve the outcome,

1014
00:38:33,074 --> 00:38:35,714
particularly when I actually think a dual stack

1015
00:38:35,714 --> 00:38:37,255
network is kind of fine.

1016
00:38:37,714 --> 00:38:40,195
I'm actually pretty impressed with how things work.

1017
00:38:40,195 --> 00:38:42,214
I don't know about you, Russ, but I'm

1018
00:38:42,434 --> 00:38:44,914
pretty sure that I'm doing 80% of my

1019
00:38:44,914 --> 00:38:46,460
flow on v six

1020
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:48,840
and fall back to four is like for

1021
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,859
the margins of what I do.

1022
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:52,840
Yeah. I don't know about that because I

1023
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,239
don't know about my local provider. And, you

1024
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:56,059
know, again,

1025
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:57,980
here in The US,

1026
00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:00,940
people built up v four stuff and

1027
00:39:01,375 --> 00:39:03,635
the deployment of v six has not been

1028
00:39:04,414 --> 00:39:07,215
as strong for various reasons. So that's that's

1029
00:39:07,375 --> 00:39:09,215
No. Maybe it's because you guys were early

1030
00:39:09,215 --> 00:39:11,055
adopters. Tom, are you in a v six

1031
00:39:11,055 --> 00:39:11,875
rich network?

1032
00:39:13,055 --> 00:39:14,355
Yeah. Yeah. My providers,

1033
00:39:14,655 --> 00:39:16,355
it's all it's it's all standard.

1034
00:39:17,130 --> 00:39:17,630
Yeah.

1035
00:39:18,089 --> 00:39:20,029
And, you know, it's not like you're disconnected

1036
00:39:20,170 --> 00:39:21,769
from the net because you made a v

1037
00:39:21,769 --> 00:39:23,529
six decision. It's not like you're having a

1038
00:39:23,529 --> 00:39:26,409
bad hair day because of six. Right? Right.

1039
00:39:26,409 --> 00:39:29,289
So there are components of behavior that don't

1040
00:39:29,289 --> 00:39:30,914
work well. Like the fact we made the

1041
00:39:30,914 --> 00:39:33,414
two protocols not talk to each other.

1042
00:39:33,715 --> 00:39:35,715
That's kind of a weird outcome. Right? So

1043
00:39:35,715 --> 00:39:37,255
we're actually running two

1044
00:39:37,555 --> 00:39:40,594
strands of dialogue with boxes in between that

1045
00:39:40,594 --> 00:39:42,594
put four in one side and six out

1046
00:39:42,594 --> 00:39:44,855
the other to glue things together. But

1047
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:46,860
it's kinda working. Right?

1048
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:47,900
So

1049
00:39:49,079 --> 00:39:51,739
I'm I've reached this weird point of apostasy

1050
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,360
in the v six religion that I no

1051
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,480
longer believe we're necessarily gonna hit 90%,

1052
00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:58,440
99%

1053
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,864
total v six in my lifetime. I don't

1054
00:40:00,864 --> 00:40:03,425
actually think it's gonna happen. And I also

1055
00:40:03,425 --> 00:40:03,925
think

1056
00:40:04,465 --> 00:40:05,844
maybe it doesn't matter.

1057
00:40:06,625 --> 00:40:08,704
Yeah. I mean, it's your statement of it's

1058
00:40:08,704 --> 00:40:10,864
kinda working. Like, that's a that's a pretty

1059
00:40:10,864 --> 00:40:13,505
good description of the Internet in general. Like

1060
00:40:14,530 --> 00:40:16,530
so why would we need to move beyond

1061
00:40:16,530 --> 00:40:17,190
it? Right?

1062
00:40:18,450 --> 00:40:20,849
Well, maybe to get TCO down again. I

1063
00:40:20,849 --> 00:40:22,849
mean, let's face it. Running those c g

1064
00:40:22,849 --> 00:40:25,730
nets is a pretty expensive business. We're paying

1065
00:40:25,730 --> 00:40:28,369
big money to Juniper and Cisco to keep

1066
00:40:28,369 --> 00:40:31,054
the bits flying inside the steam engines that

1067
00:40:31,054 --> 00:40:32,355
run the c g nets.

1068
00:40:32,734 --> 00:40:34,494
If we didn't have to do that, there

1069
00:40:34,494 --> 00:40:35,795
would be tighter margins

1070
00:40:36,094 --> 00:40:38,674
on their boxes and there'd be more profit

1071
00:40:38,734 --> 00:40:41,614
in the bit shipping business. So I could

1072
00:40:41,614 --> 00:40:43,394
argue that it's inefficient.

1073
00:40:44,529 --> 00:40:46,630
Yeah. It is inefficient, but it's not inefficient

1074
00:40:46,690 --> 00:40:48,929
enough for anybody to care. Like, I remember

1075
00:40:48,929 --> 00:40:52,849
doing these doing evaluating CGNET specifically for for

1076
00:40:52,849 --> 00:40:54,849
a big network, and it was like, well,

1077
00:40:54,849 --> 00:40:56,529
it's gonna cost this much to do CGNET.

1078
00:40:56,529 --> 00:40:58,309
It's gonna cost this much to buy four.

1079
00:40:58,529 --> 00:40:59,510
Just buy four.

1080
00:40:59,954 --> 00:41:01,555
Like and I and I'm sure I'm sure

1081
00:41:01,555 --> 00:41:03,635
those and and those will change, obviously, as

1082
00:41:03,635 --> 00:41:05,635
the four supply dries up if it does.

1083
00:41:05,635 --> 00:41:07,974
Yeah. But it but it just isn't compelling

1084
00:41:08,114 --> 00:41:10,434
right now. It's not to the deployment for

1085
00:41:10,434 --> 00:41:12,775
customers. It's to the core of the network

1086
00:41:12,835 --> 00:41:14,614
for people who are running DCs,

1087
00:41:15,339 --> 00:41:15,839
CDNs,

1088
00:41:16,539 --> 00:41:18,940
other functions so that they can have stable

1089
00:41:18,940 --> 00:41:21,739
four addresses that are not on a CG

1090
00:41:21,739 --> 00:41:24,699
NAT. And then us, the clients, the people

1091
00:41:24,699 --> 00:41:27,179
on the edge, we go through CG NAT

1092
00:41:27,179 --> 00:41:29,179
to access them. Now that is not the

1093
00:41:29,179 --> 00:41:32,234
kind of Internet that originally really excited me.

1094
00:41:32,234 --> 00:41:33,214
That's a classic

1095
00:41:33,675 --> 00:41:35,534
center provides, I consume

1096
00:41:35,994 --> 00:41:37,054
model of networking.

1097
00:41:37,355 --> 00:41:40,155
And it kind of annoys me that we've

1098
00:41:40,155 --> 00:41:42,094
taken away the end to end component.

1099
00:41:42,394 --> 00:41:45,030
So for me, having six at home, putting

1100
00:41:45,030 --> 00:41:47,670
names into the public DNS that point to

1101
00:41:47,670 --> 00:41:48,410
six addresses

1102
00:41:48,789 --> 00:41:50,550
so I can come back to my own

1103
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:51,449
Plex server,

1104
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:54,150
my own home file store, I just love

1105
00:41:54,150 --> 00:41:56,630
that stuff. Right? I love being able to

1106
00:41:56,630 --> 00:41:58,170
do that without an intermediary.

1107
00:41:58,550 --> 00:41:59,449
But, you know,

1108
00:41:59,945 --> 00:42:01,405
maybe I'm an edge case.

1109
00:42:01,704 --> 00:42:04,364
Or maybe the solution to that is DNS,

1110
00:42:04,664 --> 00:42:05,164
unfortunately.

1111
00:42:07,304 --> 00:42:09,485
Yeah. I I So the network

1112
00:42:10,105 --> 00:42:11,485
steers by DNS.

1113
00:42:11,864 --> 00:42:14,684
Yeah. I you know, I say unfortunately because,

1114
00:42:15,349 --> 00:42:18,230
again, I don't like that we do this

1115
00:42:18,230 --> 00:42:18,969
where we

1116
00:42:19,590 --> 00:42:21,989
throw lots of stuff at a protocol that

1117
00:42:21,989 --> 00:42:24,010
wasn't really designed to do that

1118
00:42:25,110 --> 00:42:27,929
and say, but the problem's been solved. So

1119
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:30,010
so be it. It's fine.

1120
00:42:30,585 --> 00:42:33,065
DNS wasn't really designed to be dynamic that

1121
00:42:33,065 --> 00:42:33,885
way, but,

1122
00:42:34,264 --> 00:42:35,484
you know, it works.

1123
00:42:36,025 --> 00:42:37,945
Well, just just call it just call it

1124
00:42:37,945 --> 00:42:40,264
application routing. See, that's cool. Yeah. That's new.

1125
00:42:40,264 --> 00:42:42,204
Yeah. There you go. Oh, that sounds good.

1126
00:42:42,505 --> 00:42:44,045
Is it coming v six?

1127
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,179
Yeah. So it would come as no surprise

1128
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,260
that there's a field of discourse

1129
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:54,300
around

1130
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,039
routing packets based on the names of things.

1131
00:42:58,039 --> 00:42:58,940
And it's called

1132
00:42:59,405 --> 00:43:02,284
named data networking. Yeah. Yeah. And it should

1133
00:43:02,284 --> 00:43:04,844
come as no surprise that of the two

1134
00:43:04,844 --> 00:43:05,344
economies

1135
00:43:05,644 --> 00:43:08,224
I've been talking about that are planned economies

1136
00:43:08,284 --> 00:43:11,505
in my region, one of them is extremely

1137
00:43:11,724 --> 00:43:14,704
active in the field of named data networking.

1138
00:43:15,219 --> 00:43:17,860
They see real opportunities in this model of

1139
00:43:17,860 --> 00:43:19,559
doing things. Yeah. So

1140
00:43:19,940 --> 00:43:22,500
you might have something there, Tom. Yeah. I

1141
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:24,340
mean, it's not yeah. It's not even so

1142
00:43:24,340 --> 00:43:26,980
much that a server contains your data. It's

1143
00:43:26,980 --> 00:43:29,719
that every router becomes a server,

1144
00:43:30,554 --> 00:43:31,775
a data store.

1145
00:43:32,315 --> 00:43:34,714
And so you you search for things via

1146
00:43:34,714 --> 00:43:35,534
their names,

1147
00:43:36,074 --> 00:43:38,815
and the closest this becomes like this whole

1148
00:43:39,675 --> 00:43:40,175
CDN

1149
00:43:40,554 --> 00:43:41,295
on steroids.

1150
00:43:42,155 --> 00:43:43,755
Yeah. It's kind it's kind of what what

1151
00:43:43,755 --> 00:43:45,940
it comes down to. So there's two other

1152
00:43:45,940 --> 00:43:48,500
things about the large six deployment that are

1153
00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:50,739
kind of floating around in my mind. One

1154
00:43:50,739 --> 00:43:52,739
of them is a thing I heard about

1155
00:43:52,739 --> 00:43:54,340
when I was at a meeting in Paris

1156
00:43:54,340 --> 00:43:56,660
quite a while ago, and it's actually been

1157
00:43:56,660 --> 00:43:59,914
deployed at scale by networks like Deutsche Telekom.

1158
00:44:00,214 --> 00:44:02,855
It's using bit fields in the v six

1159
00:44:02,855 --> 00:44:03,355
address

1160
00:44:03,894 --> 00:44:04,634
to construct

1161
00:44:05,414 --> 00:44:07,514
a ring model of protection

1162
00:44:07,815 --> 00:44:09,674
over your various subnetworks

1163
00:44:10,054 --> 00:44:12,739
in your schema. If you imagine that you

1164
00:44:12,739 --> 00:44:15,539
reserved 16 or 24 bits in the middle

1165
00:44:15,539 --> 00:44:17,139
of your address field, then we've got a

1166
00:44:17,139 --> 00:44:18,099
128

1167
00:44:18,099 --> 00:44:20,019
bits. So we do have the space to

1168
00:44:20,019 --> 00:44:20,679
do this.

1169
00:44:20,980 --> 00:44:23,539
You can actually mark bits and say, if

1170
00:44:23,539 --> 00:44:25,065
you've got these bits set,

1171
00:44:25,784 --> 00:44:29,085
your packet can only lie within this particular

1172
00:44:29,304 --> 00:44:30,364
network's behaviour.

1173
00:44:30,905 --> 00:44:33,704
You can start to segment packet flow based

1174
00:44:33,704 --> 00:44:36,125
on aspects of the address. Now this is

1175
00:44:36,664 --> 00:44:37,164
horrible.

1176
00:44:37,889 --> 00:44:40,289
Overloading something that is only meant to be

1177
00:44:40,289 --> 00:44:42,949
a unique string more than having a prefix,

1178
00:44:43,650 --> 00:44:46,449
not a good model. But it turns out

1179
00:44:46,449 --> 00:44:48,609
you can do a lot of stuff with

1180
00:44:48,609 --> 00:44:49,109
this.

1181
00:44:49,809 --> 00:44:52,164
So I'm sure the same argument was made

1182
00:44:52,164 --> 00:44:54,164
about Nat in the nineties. This exact same

1183
00:44:54,164 --> 00:44:56,644
argument. Yeah. It's horrible. We shouldn't. But you

1184
00:44:56,644 --> 00:44:58,264
could do some cool stuff with it.

1185
00:44:58,644 --> 00:44:59,545
And we did.

1186
00:45:00,005 --> 00:45:01,224
So the second thing

1187
00:45:01,525 --> 00:45:04,519
is something that I have always felt passionately

1188
00:45:04,659 --> 00:45:07,800
was a road not taken that is interesting.

1189
00:45:08,579 --> 00:45:11,480
And that is the idea that the location

1190
00:45:12,019 --> 00:45:13,559
could determine the address,

1191
00:45:14,019 --> 00:45:15,079
not the provider.

1192
00:45:16,625 --> 00:45:17,125
So

1193
00:45:17,664 --> 00:45:19,824
there's a lot of people who really dislike

1194
00:45:19,824 --> 00:45:23,425
this model. Right? But geographic addressing, the idea

1195
00:45:23,425 --> 00:45:26,324
of an overlay of some form of cell

1196
00:45:26,704 --> 00:45:29,045
size that is aerial in sense,

1197
00:45:29,409 --> 00:45:31,809
and if you live inside that space, your

1198
00:45:31,809 --> 00:45:33,269
address marker says

1199
00:45:33,650 --> 00:45:36,130
this box is located at this point on

1200
00:45:36,130 --> 00:45:38,150
the surface of the network,

1201
00:45:39,090 --> 00:45:40,949
is actually getting some traction

1202
00:45:41,409 --> 00:45:42,150
in China.

1203
00:45:42,690 --> 00:45:44,949
There's a town that's being developed

1204
00:45:45,385 --> 00:45:47,945
that is a complete new build out to

1205
00:45:47,945 --> 00:45:49,885
the million plus population,

1206
00:45:50,505 --> 00:45:52,204
and the entire city

1207
00:45:52,505 --> 00:45:54,605
has a single v six address plan.

1208
00:45:55,065 --> 00:45:57,965
They're going to segment it for multiple providers.

1209
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,400
If you want to take service from one

1210
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,880
of their different providers, you get an address

1211
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,599
class within that. But all the addresses in

1212
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:07,539
the entire rollout in that

1213
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:08,820
city

1214
00:46:09,599 --> 00:46:11,300
lie in one address schema.

1215
00:46:11,855 --> 00:46:14,835
And so they're going to have IoT devices

1216
00:46:15,214 --> 00:46:17,694
checking if waste bins are full or not.

1217
00:46:17,694 --> 00:46:20,574
They're gonna have air conditioning systems that operate

1218
00:46:20,574 --> 00:46:22,355
as a demand load management

1219
00:46:22,815 --> 00:46:24,034
to control power.

1220
00:46:24,414 --> 00:46:26,940
All of these things are being done, and

1221
00:46:26,940 --> 00:46:28,320
all of it is using

1222
00:46:28,940 --> 00:46:31,519
single central address management techniques,

1223
00:46:31,820 --> 00:46:34,139
which, by the way, is exactly how we

1224
00:46:34,139 --> 00:46:37,039
used to run telephone networks before the Internet

1225
00:46:37,099 --> 00:46:37,920
came along.

1226
00:46:38,219 --> 00:46:41,280
So it's not like we can't do this.

1227
00:46:41,579 --> 00:46:42,239
It's just

1228
00:46:42,994 --> 00:46:45,335
we don't do this. But in China,

1229
00:46:45,715 --> 00:46:47,255
they're thinking quite seriously

1230
00:46:47,954 --> 00:46:49,094
about doing this.

1231
00:46:49,555 --> 00:46:51,494
Yeah. There are there are lots of limitations

1232
00:46:51,715 --> 00:46:53,494
to such a thing though. But, yeah,

1233
00:46:53,875 --> 00:46:55,079
that is that is

1234
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:56,920
something we used to do on the telephone

1235
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:58,780
network. And nowadays, we have the EID,

1236
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,680
which is your telephone number has nothing to

1237
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,260
do with where you are physically any longer.

1238
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,500
And how do we route those

1239
00:47:07,914 --> 00:47:09,375
EIDs around the world?

1240
00:47:11,674 --> 00:47:12,894
Alright. So

1241
00:47:16,954 --> 00:47:18,234
I know I have a hard stop in

1242
00:47:18,234 --> 00:47:19,835
ten minutes, so maybe we should wrap up.

1243
00:47:19,835 --> 00:47:20,894
Anything else, George?

1244
00:47:21,469 --> 00:47:23,309
No. I just I just thought this was

1245
00:47:23,309 --> 00:47:26,029
a fascinating point. I'm not I'm not here

1246
00:47:26,029 --> 00:47:28,510
to criticize anyone for a decision to plan

1247
00:47:28,510 --> 00:47:29,569
a national endeavor.

1248
00:47:29,949 --> 00:47:32,429
I'm concerned about whether they'll hit target and

1249
00:47:32,429 --> 00:47:33,170
the consequences

1250
00:47:33,469 --> 00:47:35,715
for people I work with and like. It's

1251
00:47:35,715 --> 00:47:37,795
a different model to the one we're used

1252
00:47:37,795 --> 00:47:39,255
to. It's interesting.

1253
00:47:39,795 --> 00:47:42,215
Yeah. It is. Anything you wanna add, Tom?

1254
00:47:43,394 --> 00:47:46,454
No. No. Great discussion. Yep. Awesome. Alright.

1255
00:47:46,755 --> 00:47:49,569
So, George, where can people find you? I

1256
00:47:49,569 --> 00:47:52,469
know you are upside down and quasi retired.

1257
00:47:52,530 --> 00:47:53,829
So are you still blogging?

1258
00:47:54,530 --> 00:47:56,630
I am. You can find things I'm writing

1259
00:47:56,690 --> 00:47:59,329
at the APNIC website and blog, and I'm

1260
00:47:59,329 --> 00:48:00,309
also recording

1261
00:48:00,690 --> 00:48:01,670
a fortnightly

1262
00:48:01,969 --> 00:48:03,429
podcast called Ping.

1263
00:48:04,049 --> 00:48:04,514
Alright.

1264
00:48:04,914 --> 00:48:05,414
Fortnightly.

1265
00:48:06,674 --> 00:48:09,394
Wow. Okay. Yeah. That's that's a burden. Don't

1266
00:48:09,394 --> 00:48:10,135
do that.

1267
00:48:12,674 --> 00:48:14,614
I don't know. The hedge is every week.

1268
00:48:15,154 --> 00:48:15,654
Fortnightly.

1269
00:48:15,954 --> 00:48:17,074
I don't know. We may have to we

1270
00:48:17,074 --> 00:48:18,594
may have to come up with a different,

1271
00:48:18,594 --> 00:48:20,420
like, wow. Fortnightly.

1272
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:21,380
Okay.

1273
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:24,579
Oh, I assumed you were monthly.

1274
00:48:25,199 --> 00:48:27,139
No. No. No. No. No. We're weekly.

1275
00:48:27,679 --> 00:48:28,579
So cool.

1276
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:29,940
Alright.

1277
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:30,900
And

1278
00:48:31,385 --> 00:48:33,144
so that people can also find you where

1279
00:48:33,144 --> 00:48:35,484
on social media, George, if they want to?

1280
00:48:36,105 --> 00:48:37,704
They can find me at the same place

1281
00:48:37,704 --> 00:48:39,545
I'm blogging. I don't I I have a

1282
00:48:39,545 --> 00:48:42,105
very small social media presence. If you see

1283
00:48:42,105 --> 00:48:42,844
the initialism

1284
00:48:43,144 --> 00:48:46,170
g g m, it's probably me. Alright. Cool.

1285
00:48:46,569 --> 00:48:47,069
And

1286
00:48:47,530 --> 00:48:48,030
Tom.

1287
00:48:50,250 --> 00:48:50,750
LinkedIn.

1288
00:48:53,849 --> 00:48:55,150
The pause And

1289
00:48:55,449 --> 00:48:56,589
Gardeners Weekly.

1290
00:48:56,889 --> 00:48:57,710
That's right.

1291
00:48:58,889 --> 00:49:00,909
Plant cam. Plant cam.

1292
00:49:03,474 --> 00:49:05,074
You should be call you should rename it

1293
00:49:05,074 --> 00:49:07,894
already to the green cam. And for us,

1294
00:49:07,954 --> 00:49:10,594
if people would like to follow your words

1295
00:49:10,594 --> 00:49:12,454
and thoughts, where do they look?

1296
00:49:13,155 --> 00:49:14,539
Oh, Oh, people can always find me here

1297
00:49:14,539 --> 00:49:15,739
at the heads. They can find me on

1298
00:49:15,739 --> 00:49:16,960
rule11.tech

1299
00:49:17,260 --> 00:49:18,000
and LinkedIn.

1300
00:49:18,619 --> 00:49:19,519
And, occasionally,

1301
00:49:20,059 --> 00:49:22,559
I log in to x. Not very often.

1302
00:49:22,940 --> 00:49:24,079
Very, very rare.

1303
00:49:24,699 --> 00:49:25,599
But yeah.

1304
00:49:26,460 --> 00:49:28,079
I'm not a huge social media

1305
00:49:28,485 --> 00:49:29,385
either, honestly.

1306
00:49:29,925 --> 00:49:30,425
So,

1307
00:49:30,724 --> 00:49:33,285
anyway, alright. Well, thanks for taking the time

1308
00:49:33,285 --> 00:49:34,405
to listen to us. We know we live

1309
00:49:34,405 --> 00:49:35,945
in an attention driven economy.

1310
00:49:36,485 --> 00:49:36,985
And,

1311
00:49:37,605 --> 00:49:40,644
so your attention is really what's important in

1312
00:49:40,644 --> 00:49:42,085
the in the world as it is. It

1313
00:49:42,085 --> 00:49:43,525
may not seem that way, but that's the

1314
00:49:43,525 --> 00:49:45,199
way it is. And we thank you for

1315
00:49:45,199 --> 00:49:47,039
listening all the way to the bitter end

1316
00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:48,639
of this episode of The Hedge, and we

1317
00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:49,940
will catch you next time.