1 00:00:01,599 --> 00:00:03,620 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,679 --> 00:00:06,660 where we dig into technology, business, and culture 3 00:00:06,719 --> 00:00:09,059 with the finest minds in computer networking. 4 00:00:21,054 --> 00:00:24,015 Well, hello, Tom and Tom's plant. A couple 5 00:00:24,015 --> 00:00:26,670 of the leaves are trying to reach escape 6 00:00:26,670 --> 00:00:28,370 velocity, just so you know. 7 00:00:28,750 --> 00:00:29,890 It's quite perky. 8 00:00:30,269 --> 00:00:30,929 It is. 9 00:00:31,470 --> 00:00:33,490 Yeah. Yeah. It's a happy little plant. 10 00:00:34,190 --> 00:00:36,510 I I think I think all the attention 11 00:00:36,510 --> 00:00:38,690 that's paid to it has been doing well, 12 00:00:38,829 --> 00:00:41,295 has been helping its well-being, I mean. Alright. 13 00:00:41,295 --> 00:00:43,394 Good. I see no rockets on the whiteboard 14 00:00:43,454 --> 00:00:45,155 or anything like that. So 15 00:00:45,614 --> 00:00:48,494 I guess we're we're rocketless this week. So 16 00:00:48,494 --> 00:00:50,015 I guess we'll have to just deal with 17 00:00:50,015 --> 00:00:50,515 it. 18 00:00:50,894 --> 00:00:52,114 That's a sad thing. 19 00:00:52,734 --> 00:00:53,234 And 20 00:00:54,759 --> 00:00:56,519 we have Yvonne in the she shed with 21 00:00:56,519 --> 00:00:58,460 the frog lamp and the grow lamp. 22 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:00,780 Yes. And my Dieffenbachia. 23 00:01:02,119 --> 00:01:03,659 And what you can't see 24 00:01:04,119 --> 00:01:05,099 is in the window, 25 00:01:05,719 --> 00:01:06,459 I have 26 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:07,739 two orchids 27 00:01:08,495 --> 00:01:10,034 now that I am reblooming. 28 00:01:10,335 --> 00:01:12,734 So I bought these orchids for $10 a 29 00:01:12,734 --> 00:01:14,194 piece on sale at Home Depot 30 00:01:14,655 --> 00:01:16,594 for the wedding back in July. 31 00:01:17,375 --> 00:01:19,454 And they flowered and their flowers fell off 32 00:01:19,454 --> 00:01:21,534 and that's their life cycle. And now they've 33 00:01:21,534 --> 00:01:22,674 grown new shoots 34 00:01:23,510 --> 00:01:25,349 and each of them has new blooms on 35 00:01:25,349 --> 00:01:27,829 them. And if you've never grown orchids, you 36 00:01:27,829 --> 00:01:29,609 know that they can be a little finicky, 37 00:01:30,230 --> 00:01:32,810 and they're a little demanding. So I'm incredibly 38 00:01:33,189 --> 00:01:33,689 proud 39 00:01:34,629 --> 00:01:35,924 that I've got my orchids 40 00:01:36,725 --> 00:01:39,844 reblooming. Cool. I'm I'm a graduated plant mom. 41 00:01:39,844 --> 00:01:42,105 I'm not just doing the easy Pothos anymore. 42 00:01:42,484 --> 00:01:44,005 Well, we have an we have an orchid 43 00:01:44,005 --> 00:01:45,365 in the living room, which, of course, you 44 00:01:45,365 --> 00:01:47,305 can't see here because I'm in, like, whatever. 45 00:01:48,085 --> 00:01:51,909 And the air roots are now way outside 46 00:01:53,170 --> 00:01:55,349 of the of the pot, 47 00:01:55,810 --> 00:01:57,250 and we really don't know what to do 48 00:01:57,250 --> 00:01:59,170 with it. Like, you don't you can't really 49 00:01:59,170 --> 00:02:01,170 repot it without cutting all the air roots 50 00:02:01,170 --> 00:02:01,670 off. 51 00:02:01,984 --> 00:02:04,064 And so, like, we don't know, like, okay. 52 00:02:04,064 --> 00:02:05,504 If you cut all the air roots off, 53 00:02:05,504 --> 00:02:06,564 do you kill it? 54 00:02:07,185 --> 00:02:09,985 No. Well You don't. Okay. Well, alright. We 55 00:02:09,985 --> 00:02:12,384 might try it then because we've been kinda 56 00:02:12,384 --> 00:02:14,865 scared about repotting the orchid because you it's 57 00:02:14,865 --> 00:02:16,590 like these air roots are sticking out of 58 00:02:16,590 --> 00:02:18,289 the the pot by, like, 12 inches. 59 00:02:19,229 --> 00:02:20,209 They're they're huge. 60 00:02:21,229 --> 00:02:22,989 You didn't know that you came to an 61 00:02:22,989 --> 00:02:25,870 orchid podcast today, but you wanna be sure 62 00:02:25,870 --> 00:02:27,469 you use a really like an orchid like 63 00:02:27,469 --> 00:02:30,430 a bark mix because orchids in the wild 64 00:02:30,430 --> 00:02:33,014 actually attach to trees, which is why you 65 00:02:33,014 --> 00:02:34,555 get all those aerial roots. 66 00:02:34,935 --> 00:02:36,455 So they don't really need to be in 67 00:02:36,455 --> 00:02:38,935 dirt. They just need to be in a 68 00:02:38,935 --> 00:02:39,995 bark mix. 69 00:02:41,974 --> 00:02:43,335 And then you water them when the when 70 00:02:43,335 --> 00:02:44,635 the roots turn silver. 71 00:02:44,990 --> 00:02:47,150 Yeah. Yeah. Be very careful with your orchid 72 00:02:47,150 --> 00:02:47,650 part. 73 00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:49,330 Just saying. 74 00:02:50,669 --> 00:02:51,169 Okay. 75 00:02:54,189 --> 00:02:56,270 I'm supposed to get something from that, and 76 00:02:56,270 --> 00:02:57,884 I'm I'm not picking up what you're putting 77 00:02:57,884 --> 00:02:58,784 down, Russ. 78 00:03:00,284 --> 00:03:01,025 Alright. That's 79 00:03:01,405 --> 00:03:02,384 alright. So 80 00:03:03,084 --> 00:03:05,664 yeah. Most people don't, so it's okay. 81 00:03:06,044 --> 00:03:06,544 So 82 00:03:07,324 --> 00:03:09,504 first thing we're talking about this week was, 83 00:03:10,204 --> 00:03:10,704 this 84 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:13,500 survey by TechCe, 85 00:03:13,879 --> 00:03:15,639 which I think is a I don't know 86 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:16,780 much about TechCe, 87 00:03:17,479 --> 00:03:19,419 but I think they are 88 00:03:19,879 --> 00:03:21,659 a research firm for WISP 89 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:23,259 is my guess. 90 00:03:24,064 --> 00:03:25,745 I I could be wrong, but that it 91 00:03:25,745 --> 00:03:27,905 seems like that would be the realm they're 92 00:03:27,905 --> 00:03:29,044 in. But anyway, 93 00:03:30,544 --> 00:03:32,724 they did a survey on home connectivity, 94 00:03:33,664 --> 00:03:35,125 which was interesting because 95 00:03:35,664 --> 00:03:37,844 if I were to say what's the problem 96 00:03:38,110 --> 00:03:39,090 with home connectivity, 97 00:03:39,870 --> 00:03:41,949 I'm almost always going to say it's my 98 00:03:41,949 --> 00:03:42,449 upstream 99 00:03:44,509 --> 00:03:45,009 because 100 00:03:45,310 --> 00:03:47,729 that's where my problems always tend to be 101 00:03:48,269 --> 00:03:49,330 is with my upstream. 102 00:03:50,269 --> 00:03:51,221 And I don't know if that speaks more 103 00:03:51,221 --> 00:03:51,709 about my upstream or if that speaks more 104 00:03:51,709 --> 00:03:53,954 about upstream or if that speaks more about 105 00:03:53,954 --> 00:03:56,114 the state of my internal network, my in 106 00:03:56,114 --> 00:03:57,014 my house network. 107 00:03:57,634 --> 00:03:59,974 But it's almost always upstream for me. 108 00:04:01,314 --> 00:04:02,055 And yet, 109 00:04:03,394 --> 00:04:04,215 they say 110 00:04:04,514 --> 00:04:05,014 that 111 00:04:06,594 --> 00:04:08,930 what is it? What's the percentage here? 112 00:04:09,389 --> 00:04:11,710 They sample 3,780 113 00:04:11,710 --> 00:04:12,210 people, 114 00:04:13,949 --> 00:04:15,009 blah blah blah, 115 00:04:15,469 --> 00:04:19,649 point put plus or minus 1.6%. 116 00:04:20,555 --> 00:04:21,595 68% 117 00:04:21,595 --> 00:04:24,175 of households reported Wi Fi problems. 118 00:04:26,395 --> 00:04:27,535 18% 119 00:04:27,675 --> 00:04:30,254 daily twelve months. Yeah. And 18% 120 00:04:30,395 --> 00:04:30,895 daily. 121 00:04:32,889 --> 00:04:36,170 Daily? Daily. That is terrible. Yeah. 18% 122 00:04:36,170 --> 00:04:36,670 daily 123 00:04:37,129 --> 00:04:38,830 and another 20% 124 00:04:38,889 --> 00:04:39,389 weekly. 125 00:04:40,330 --> 00:04:41,870 So thirty eight percent 126 00:04:42,250 --> 00:04:43,389 experience problems 127 00:04:44,904 --> 00:04:45,725 once a week. 128 00:04:47,144 --> 00:04:48,685 That's that's crazy. 129 00:04:49,704 --> 00:04:50,845 That's just crazy. 130 00:04:51,225 --> 00:04:52,425 I don't know what I would do if 131 00:04:52,425 --> 00:04:54,285 I had Wi Fi problems once a week. 132 00:04:55,785 --> 00:04:57,384 Run wires. That's what I do. What I 133 00:04:57,384 --> 00:04:58,285 would do. Yeah. 134 00:04:58,699 --> 00:04:59,979 Which, by the way, I do a lot 135 00:04:59,979 --> 00:05:01,500 more of. I I I tend to run 136 00:05:01,500 --> 00:05:04,060 a lot more physical connectivity than just Wi 137 00:05:04,060 --> 00:05:06,939 Fi. I try to move I've always tried 138 00:05:06,939 --> 00:05:08,079 to move towards it. 139 00:05:10,779 --> 00:05:12,865 When I when I built this last new 140 00:05:12,865 --> 00:05:14,225 house I built, not the one I'm in 141 00:05:14,225 --> 00:05:16,145 now, but and we're building another one. But 142 00:05:16,145 --> 00:05:16,645 anyway, 143 00:05:17,264 --> 00:05:20,324 I had two ethernet jacks in each room. 144 00:05:20,785 --> 00:05:23,279 And so they were, like, a 32 145 00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:26,100 port punch down underneath the stairs. 146 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,339 And the electrical guy was, like, 147 00:05:29,439 --> 00:05:30,660 what are you doing? 148 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,220 Have you never heard of Wi Fi? 149 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:35,759 And I said, yeah. I've heard of Wi 150 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:37,540 Fi. That's why I'm doing this. 151 00:05:40,764 --> 00:05:42,925 We gotta love, like, on the the summary 152 00:05:42,925 --> 00:05:43,504 of this. 153 00:05:44,444 --> 00:05:46,125 So and and we are telling you about 154 00:05:46,125 --> 00:05:48,925 Wi Fi problems, not upstream connectivity problems. But 155 00:05:48,925 --> 00:05:51,324 it says more than a half or 51% 156 00:05:51,324 --> 00:05:54,150 of consumers would switch providers if issues aren't 157 00:05:54,150 --> 00:05:54,970 resolved quickly. 158 00:05:55,509 --> 00:05:56,810 And then 48 would 159 00:05:57,430 --> 00:06:00,069 percent would switch for better whole home coverage, 160 00:06:00,069 --> 00:06:01,830 which makes me wonder if this study was 161 00:06:01,830 --> 00:06:03,990 sponsored by somebody who's selling in home WiFi. 162 00:06:03,990 --> 00:06:05,084 Oh, it could be. But, anyway, 163 00:06:05,564 --> 00:06:08,365 about one third, so 34% are willing to 164 00:06:08,365 --> 00:06:09,264 pay extra, 165 00:06:09,725 --> 00:06:10,544 which reinforcing 166 00:06:10,845 --> 00:06:13,425 that assurance trumps price. But, 167 00:06:13,805 --> 00:06:17,485 it so in my mind, of course, it's 168 00:06:17,485 --> 00:06:17,985 nonnormative 169 00:06:18,285 --> 00:06:20,544 for the average home Internet consumer. 170 00:06:21,980 --> 00:06:24,160 The the connectivity to your house 171 00:06:24,620 --> 00:06:27,360 is your provider's responsibility, and the connectivity 172 00:06:27,819 --> 00:06:29,680 with inside your house 173 00:06:30,139 --> 00:06:32,540 is my responsibility. That comes from years of 174 00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:34,620 enterprise networking. Yeah. There's a demark That's right. 175 00:06:34,699 --> 00:06:36,459 There's a demark on the outside of my 176 00:06:36,459 --> 00:06:36,915 house 177 00:06:37,395 --> 00:06:39,095 that demarkate demarkates 178 00:06:39,395 --> 00:06:41,814 the point between my network and their network. 179 00:06:41,955 --> 00:06:44,774 Yeah. That's right. That's right. But, clearly, 180 00:06:45,154 --> 00:06:48,214 customers don't differentiate the two. The average 181 00:06:48,835 --> 00:06:49,895 Home user. Homeowner 182 00:06:50,675 --> 00:06:53,129 home user does not differentiate between the two. 183 00:06:53,129 --> 00:06:54,110 And so this 184 00:06:54,490 --> 00:06:55,389 might underscore 185 00:06:55,930 --> 00:06:56,669 the importance 186 00:06:57,689 --> 00:06:59,850 for connectivity providers to put a little bit 187 00:06:59,850 --> 00:07:01,629 more focus on the, 188 00:07:02,649 --> 00:07:05,550 CPE, we would call it, customer premises equipment, 189 00:07:06,009 --> 00:07:08,329 to, be sure that folks get good coverage. 190 00:07:08,329 --> 00:07:10,245 But that is actually 191 00:07:10,625 --> 00:07:13,264 a really hard problem if you're servicing some 192 00:07:13,264 --> 00:07:14,245 customers in 193 00:07:14,625 --> 00:07:16,944 multiunit dwellings, and then you got folks in 194 00:07:16,944 --> 00:07:18,805 big houses that may have 195 00:07:19,345 --> 00:07:21,824 brick walls or stone fireplaces or all of 196 00:07:21,824 --> 00:07:23,764 those things. Like, Wi Fi is, 197 00:07:25,329 --> 00:07:27,649 it can be reliable, but it takes a 198 00:07:27,649 --> 00:07:30,449 bit of engineering depending on the facility that 199 00:07:30,449 --> 00:07:32,370 you're in. Yeah. But but what I find 200 00:07:32,370 --> 00:07:34,529 interesting about this is it seems like what 201 00:07:34,529 --> 00:07:36,949 they're saying is that it's not the upstream 202 00:07:37,009 --> 00:07:38,714 that's the problem most of the time for 203 00:07:38,714 --> 00:07:40,894 people. It's their own home Wi Fi. Right. 204 00:07:41,194 --> 00:07:43,694 And yet they blame it on the upstream. 205 00:07:45,514 --> 00:07:47,294 And they go Yeah. Some Yeah. 206 00:07:47,914 --> 00:07:49,834 Some some going so far as to change 207 00:07:49,834 --> 00:07:51,214 providers thinking that 208 00:07:51,675 --> 00:07:53,250 that'll fix it. Yeah. Yeah. 209 00:07:53,810 --> 00:07:56,209 Well and frankly, if you had a five, 210 00:07:56,209 --> 00:07:57,750 six, seven, eight year old router 211 00:07:58,129 --> 00:08:00,050 and you change providers and you get a 212 00:08:00,050 --> 00:08:01,889 newer router Right. You probably are gonna have 213 00:08:01,889 --> 00:08:03,910 better coverage. Right? Yeah. 214 00:08:04,370 --> 00:08:06,290 Yeah. Yeah. If you move from something without 215 00:08:06,290 --> 00:08:08,714 beamforming that's, you know, on a lower frequency 216 00:08:08,714 --> 00:08:09,454 or whatever 217 00:08:09,915 --> 00:08:11,375 to something with beamforming. 218 00:08:12,555 --> 00:08:15,194 And beyond all that, people don't think about 219 00:08:15,194 --> 00:08:16,894 this. These home devices, 220 00:08:17,675 --> 00:08:18,894 they leak memory. 221 00:08:19,274 --> 00:08:21,115 And they have buffers, and they get buffer 222 00:08:21,115 --> 00:08:22,949 bloated, and they get all this other stuff. 223 00:08:23,509 --> 00:08:25,210 And so you might just 224 00:08:25,990 --> 00:08:27,910 free stuff up and make it work better 225 00:08:27,910 --> 00:08:30,069 by disconnecting it to put the new stuff 226 00:08:30,069 --> 00:08:30,569 in. 227 00:08:31,990 --> 00:08:33,669 I mean, it may there may have been 228 00:08:33,669 --> 00:08:36,105 nothing wrong with the old equipment at all. 229 00:08:36,664 --> 00:08:39,065 That's my biggest problem in my home network 230 00:08:39,065 --> 00:08:40,345 is every now and again, I have to 231 00:08:40,345 --> 00:08:41,725 just unplug the switch. 232 00:08:42,184 --> 00:08:44,424 And I keep thinking, I should really just 233 00:08:44,424 --> 00:08:47,164 replace the switch, honestly. You know? 234 00:08:47,544 --> 00:08:49,945 But Mhmm. Just like once every month or 235 00:08:49,945 --> 00:08:51,659 two, I just have to unplug the switch. 236 00:08:51,740 --> 00:08:53,919 Not even the WiFi router and stuff, just 237 00:08:54,220 --> 00:08:55,659 the just the switch off the back of 238 00:08:55,659 --> 00:08:57,579 the right WiFi router. It just seems to 239 00:08:57,579 --> 00:08:59,419 leak enough memory that it's just like, I'm 240 00:08:59,419 --> 00:08:59,919 done. 241 00:09:00,620 --> 00:09:02,559 I'm not sending any more traffic. Thanks. 242 00:09:04,664 --> 00:09:05,565 One of the, 243 00:09:06,105 --> 00:09:08,105 responses that I thought was really interesting is 244 00:09:08,105 --> 00:09:10,684 many ISPs market whole home Wi Fi solutions. 245 00:09:11,225 --> 00:09:14,024 Surprisingly, customers of these packages have more problems 246 00:09:14,024 --> 00:09:17,085 than average. That doesn't surprise me at all 247 00:09:19,129 --> 00:09:20,809 because if you go for if you have 248 00:09:20,809 --> 00:09:22,570 one AP in your house and and that 249 00:09:22,570 --> 00:09:23,929 that AP is your router, then that's a 250 00:09:23,929 --> 00:09:26,250 certain amount of complexity and a certain amount 251 00:09:26,250 --> 00:09:27,929 of, you know but the leap from one 252 00:09:27,929 --> 00:09:29,950 to two, now you need a controller. 253 00:09:30,304 --> 00:09:31,184 Now you need, 254 00:09:31,625 --> 00:09:33,524 you know, you have to have the correct 255 00:09:34,384 --> 00:09:36,384 dynamic frequency selection and all the stuff they've 256 00:09:36,384 --> 00:09:38,225 got, like, the leap from one to two 257 00:09:38,225 --> 00:09:39,365 is a giant one. 258 00:09:39,745 --> 00:09:40,245 And, 259 00:09:40,784 --> 00:09:42,544 you know, two to three and three to 260 00:09:42,544 --> 00:09:44,190 four, I don't know exactly. I'm not a 261 00:09:44,190 --> 00:09:46,110 real a Wi Fi person. But Yeah. And 262 00:09:46,110 --> 00:09:48,850 I almost yeah. Because of channels. Yeah. 263 00:09:49,389 --> 00:09:51,470 And, well, it doesn't manage device roaming well. 264 00:09:51,470 --> 00:09:53,309 Like, what happens when you're on one end 265 00:09:53,309 --> 00:09:54,589 of the house, you go to the other, 266 00:09:54,589 --> 00:09:56,414 and your device needs to switch to a 267 00:09:56,414 --> 00:09:58,575 different AP. If if you've got a poor 268 00:09:58,575 --> 00:10:00,815 signal on an on an AP that's on 269 00:10:00,815 --> 00:10:01,955 the other side of the house, 270 00:10:02,495 --> 00:10:05,235 you're gonna have a a poorer experience, 271 00:10:05,615 --> 00:10:08,095 and your device isn't necessarily gonna know when 272 00:10:08,095 --> 00:10:08,754 to switch. 273 00:10:10,980 --> 00:10:11,940 Yeah. So it's, 274 00:10:12,419 --> 00:10:15,220 unless you've got some magic, like, reauth going 275 00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:16,200 on or reconnect 276 00:10:16,820 --> 00:10:18,600 going on in your and and 277 00:10:19,299 --> 00:10:22,360 I've got to imagine that CPE equipment 278 00:10:22,835 --> 00:10:26,035 that carriers are providing even for those paid 279 00:10:26,035 --> 00:10:26,535 services 280 00:10:27,955 --> 00:10:29,955 aren't as feature rich as what those of 281 00:10:29,955 --> 00:10:32,054 us in the industry are used to. Yeah. 282 00:10:32,195 --> 00:10:33,495 Yeah. Oh, yeah. Definitely. 283 00:10:34,355 --> 00:10:35,575 And I wonder too 284 00:10:36,115 --> 00:10:36,615 if 285 00:10:37,209 --> 00:10:39,950 you end up with more provider managed 286 00:10:40,330 --> 00:10:43,549 CPE in higher density housing situations 287 00:10:44,970 --> 00:10:46,909 than you do in lower density, 288 00:10:47,289 --> 00:10:49,709 and that may also contribute to the 289 00:10:50,375 --> 00:10:50,875 provider 290 00:10:51,335 --> 00:10:53,115 provider run CPE 291 00:10:53,735 --> 00:10:56,794 and coverage is worse or feels worse 292 00:10:57,735 --> 00:11:00,714 just because I don't know. Most people who 293 00:11:01,335 --> 00:11:03,115 own a larger piece of property, 294 00:11:03,529 --> 00:11:05,210 they go out and they buy a mesh 295 00:11:05,210 --> 00:11:05,710 system, 296 00:11:06,090 --> 00:11:08,330 they plug it in, and they don't have 297 00:11:08,330 --> 00:11:10,169 a lot of signal interfering with what they're 298 00:11:10,169 --> 00:11:12,009 doing. They don't have their neighbors all over 299 00:11:12,009 --> 00:11:12,669 the place. 300 00:11:12,970 --> 00:11:14,029 But you pack 301 00:11:14,490 --> 00:11:16,429 a 100 apartments in a building, 302 00:11:17,965 --> 00:11:19,404 And the the 303 00:11:19,965 --> 00:11:21,264 you know, first of all, 304 00:11:21,804 --> 00:11:23,884 it's more likely that's gonna be a a 305 00:11:23,884 --> 00:11:25,985 full on service that people just buy, 306 00:11:26,445 --> 00:11:28,044 I think. And the second thing is, I 307 00:11:28,044 --> 00:11:28,705 would suspect. 308 00:11:29,085 --> 00:11:31,245 And the second thing is, there's a lot 309 00:11:31,245 --> 00:11:31,904 of interference. 310 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:34,240 It's a bad thing. It's because there's not 311 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:35,840 enough spectrum in the world to, 312 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:39,279 to not have some of that interference It's 313 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:41,679 just channel overlap. It just is. Well and 314 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,480 I and I think the the eyeball networks, 315 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:45,220 the the 316 00:11:45,544 --> 00:11:48,024 ISPs that would be most likely to touch 317 00:11:48,024 --> 00:11:48,764 these issues, 318 00:11:49,384 --> 00:11:51,004 I I worked for one for a while. 319 00:11:51,144 --> 00:11:53,384 It it's really is a matter the business 320 00:11:53,384 --> 00:11:55,725 logic surrounding the quality of the service 321 00:11:56,184 --> 00:11:58,169 is really a matter of how expensive is 322 00:11:58,970 --> 00:12:01,049 it to how expensive is it to maintain 323 00:12:01,049 --> 00:12:02,669 a crappy crappy solution. 324 00:12:03,209 --> 00:12:04,889 Because if it's pretty cheap to maintain a 325 00:12:04,889 --> 00:12:06,649 crappy solution, meaning you don't get a lot 326 00:12:06,649 --> 00:12:08,329 of customer service complaints, you don't get a 327 00:12:08,329 --> 00:12:10,429 lot of technician dispatch calls, 328 00:12:11,315 --> 00:12:13,634 then it's like, well, why why would we 329 00:12:13,634 --> 00:12:15,955 change it? It's cheap to operate and the 330 00:12:15,955 --> 00:12:16,934 revenue is coming. 331 00:12:17,554 --> 00:12:19,154 You know, but then at some point, somebody 332 00:12:19,154 --> 00:12:20,674 sort of snaps and they're like, okay. I'm 333 00:12:20,674 --> 00:12:22,434 done with this. They switch providers, and then 334 00:12:22,434 --> 00:12:23,955 the revenue disappears. But you have enough if 335 00:12:23,955 --> 00:12:24,934 you have enough subscribers, 336 00:12:25,250 --> 00:12:27,509 it's gonna be really hard to notice that. 337 00:12:28,289 --> 00:12:29,970 And the, you know, the switching costs are 338 00:12:29,970 --> 00:12:32,370 pretty significant for most, you know, unless you've 339 00:12:32,370 --> 00:12:33,970 got, like, two or three providers in your 340 00:12:33,970 --> 00:12:36,289 area. But I think it's it's kind of 341 00:12:36,450 --> 00:12:38,209 there there's not a lot of incentive to 342 00:12:38,209 --> 00:12:40,964 make Wi Fi work well if we're people 343 00:12:40,964 --> 00:12:43,204 kind of are conditioned that Wi Fi sucks. 344 00:12:43,764 --> 00:12:46,584 And so I don't know. Like, this this 345 00:12:46,644 --> 00:12:49,284 this thing of 18% of customers have problems 346 00:12:49,284 --> 00:12:51,845 daily. I couldn't tolerate that myself, but I 347 00:12:51,845 --> 00:12:53,284 imagine that there's a lot of people who 348 00:12:53,284 --> 00:12:55,129 are like, yeah. Wi Fi is just bad. 349 00:12:55,129 --> 00:12:57,230 Whatever. Yeah. Probably. Well and 350 00:12:58,090 --> 00:12:59,629 many, many, many users 351 00:13:00,009 --> 00:13:02,730 are now using mobile devices. Right? They're not 352 00:13:02,730 --> 00:13:04,730 using a they're not sitting at a desk 353 00:13:04,730 --> 00:13:06,330 working all day like the rest of us 354 00:13:06,330 --> 00:13:06,830 are. 355 00:13:07,924 --> 00:13:09,845 They're using a mobile device. And if it 356 00:13:09,845 --> 00:13:11,684 gets bad enough, they just turn off the 357 00:13:11,684 --> 00:13:13,845 wireless on their mobile device and keep browsing 358 00:13:13,845 --> 00:13:15,845 over their four g, five g on their 359 00:13:15,845 --> 00:13:16,665 mobile device. 360 00:13:17,285 --> 00:13:17,684 And, 361 00:13:18,165 --> 00:13:20,184 you know, I I heard somebody say recently 362 00:13:20,325 --> 00:13:20,825 that, 363 00:13:21,365 --> 00:13:23,070 you know, it it it it used to 364 00:13:23,070 --> 00:13:26,429 be that your most reliable connectivity was your 365 00:13:26,429 --> 00:13:27,169 home connection, 366 00:13:28,190 --> 00:13:31,389 but now it's changed and that often your 367 00:13:31,389 --> 00:13:34,190 four g, five g on your phone is 368 00:13:34,190 --> 00:13:35,950 more reliable than what you have in your 369 00:13:35,950 --> 00:13:37,585 house. And I think for a lot of 370 00:13:37,585 --> 00:13:40,465 people, that's true. Yeah. Right. And certainly based 371 00:13:40,465 --> 00:13:41,684 on the survey, that's true. 372 00:13:42,065 --> 00:13:43,585 Yeah. The other interesting thing to me, like, 373 00:13:43,585 --> 00:13:45,985 going back to Tom's point about not maintaining 374 00:13:45,985 --> 00:13:47,365 them, is that 375 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,000 39% 376 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:51,459 of the people in the survey 377 00:13:51,759 --> 00:13:52,740 had a technician 378 00:13:53,759 --> 00:13:54,259 dispatched 379 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:56,019 to fix 380 00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:58,559 their internal Wi Fi problems. So they're on 381 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,220 managed Wi Fi, managed CPE of some kind. 382 00:14:01,704 --> 00:14:04,204 But only 20% of those visits 383 00:14:04,985 --> 00:14:08,024 no. 20% 80% of those visits made it 384 00:14:08,024 --> 00:14:08,524 better. 385 00:14:08,904 --> 00:14:09,804 20% 386 00:14:10,024 --> 00:14:11,565 failed to resolve the issue. 387 00:14:12,745 --> 00:14:14,924 Now that is to me, that's insane. 388 00:14:15,670 --> 00:14:16,730 That is crazy. 389 00:14:17,430 --> 00:14:18,810 You work for a provider 390 00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:22,310 managing CPE. It's a truck roll. I get 391 00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:24,330 it. You go to somebody's house, 392 00:14:25,269 --> 00:14:27,269 and you walk away without the problem being 393 00:14:27,269 --> 00:14:27,769 fixed. 394 00:14:29,284 --> 00:14:29,784 That 395 00:14:30,404 --> 00:14:31,784 20% of the time. 396 00:14:33,125 --> 00:14:35,304 Wow. That speaks volumes 397 00:14:36,164 --> 00:14:36,825 to the 398 00:14:37,605 --> 00:14:38,105 amount 399 00:14:39,204 --> 00:14:41,625 of effort these companies put into 400 00:14:42,730 --> 00:14:43,710 making this 401 00:14:44,330 --> 00:14:46,110 in home connectivity work. 402 00:14:47,210 --> 00:14:48,649 But, I mean, if you think about these 403 00:14:48,649 --> 00:14:50,490 in home technicians I know when we built 404 00:14:50,490 --> 00:14:52,169 our house a couple years ago and and 405 00:14:52,169 --> 00:14:53,629 we had the Internet installed, 406 00:14:54,490 --> 00:14:55,149 you know, 407 00:14:56,774 --> 00:14:57,514 they had 408 00:14:57,975 --> 00:14:58,475 training 409 00:14:59,095 --> 00:14:59,595 in, 410 00:15:00,615 --> 00:15:01,194 you know, 411 00:15:01,495 --> 00:15:03,014 how to run the cable, how to be 412 00:15:03,014 --> 00:15:05,014 sure they drill through your wall and not 413 00:15:05,014 --> 00:15:06,615 make sure it leaks and to keep the 414 00:15:06,615 --> 00:15:07,834 critters out and, 415 00:15:08,694 --> 00:15:11,179 you know, how to terminate things. Lots of 416 00:15:11,179 --> 00:15:13,120 physical layer one stuff. 417 00:15:13,660 --> 00:15:14,160 But, 418 00:15:15,259 --> 00:15:18,559 most of these techno technicians are not trained 419 00:15:18,860 --> 00:15:19,360 on, 420 00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:23,059 you know, analyzing wireless signals on on Yeah. 421 00:15:23,259 --> 00:15:25,715 You know, on spectrum and and how all 422 00:15:25,715 --> 00:15:27,955 that works. They're you know, the the closest 423 00:15:27,955 --> 00:15:30,434 they may get is, like, hey. If it 424 00:15:30,434 --> 00:15:32,215 doesn't work, look at it 425 00:15:32,754 --> 00:15:35,475 and change it from auto to this to 426 00:15:35,475 --> 00:15:37,554 a to a specific channel and see if 427 00:15:37,554 --> 00:15:39,269 that makes a difference or, you know, like 428 00:15:39,429 --> 00:15:40,409 but it's very 429 00:15:41,269 --> 00:15:41,769 configuration 430 00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:44,230 based training. We'll try this and try this 431 00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:45,209 and try that, 432 00:15:46,070 --> 00:15:46,570 not 433 00:15:47,029 --> 00:15:48,490 here is how Wi Fi's 434 00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:51,829 you know, signal analyzers work and how to 435 00:15:51,829 --> 00:15:54,075 actually troubleshoot the issue. They they may be 436 00:15:54,075 --> 00:15:56,335 like, oh, do you have an old 2.4 437 00:15:56,435 --> 00:15:59,355 phone system, you know, or wireless phone? Like, 438 00:15:59,355 --> 00:16:00,955 that could be your problem. Or is there 439 00:16:00,955 --> 00:16:03,195 a microwave close by? You know? But it's 440 00:16:03,195 --> 00:16:05,195 it's gonna be that kind of very surface 441 00:16:05,195 --> 00:16:06,470 level kind of troubleshooting. 442 00:16:06,929 --> 00:16:08,449 And this and this is where an AI 443 00:16:08,449 --> 00:16:10,230 system actually could be useful, 444 00:16:10,610 --> 00:16:12,070 is you could have the technician 445 00:16:12,529 --> 00:16:14,629 walk around the house with their cell phone 446 00:16:14,929 --> 00:16:16,230 connected to your WiFi, 447 00:16:17,490 --> 00:16:19,329 and they could figure out what the problem 448 00:16:19,329 --> 00:16:20,769 is. Like, there could be a way for 449 00:16:20,769 --> 00:16:22,904 them to see. Alright. When I walk in 450 00:16:22,904 --> 00:16:24,285 this room, that's a problem. 451 00:16:24,825 --> 00:16:26,184 We need to look in that room and 452 00:16:26,184 --> 00:16:27,865 see if there's a piece of equipment that's 453 00:16:27,865 --> 00:16:28,365 causing 454 00:16:29,945 --> 00:16:31,325 this stuff. Right? 455 00:16:31,865 --> 00:16:32,924 Kind of a thing. 456 00:16:33,625 --> 00:16:34,684 So there are 457 00:16:35,625 --> 00:16:36,904 I think there are, 458 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:40,799 ways that you could do this that would 459 00:16:40,799 --> 00:16:41,779 make this better. 460 00:16:42,639 --> 00:16:44,639 Another interesting thing here was two thirds said 461 00:16:44,639 --> 00:16:46,720 they would use a visual Wi Fi mapping 462 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:47,220 app. 463 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:48,179 I mean, 464 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,424 yes. I would. I don't know that I 465 00:16:51,424 --> 00:16:52,325 have one today. 466 00:16:53,264 --> 00:16:54,945 Like, I can walk around my house and 467 00:16:54,945 --> 00:16:56,644 see where the signal is good and bad. 468 00:16:57,345 --> 00:16:59,264 I mean, I'm pretty scattered. I just go 469 00:16:59,264 --> 00:17:01,184 out and throw a mesh system out in 470 00:17:01,184 --> 00:17:02,544 my house and say, well, those are the 471 00:17:02,544 --> 00:17:03,924 two farthest points apart 472 00:17:04,679 --> 00:17:06,139 or, you know, the two centralized 473 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:08,380 far farthest points apart or whatever. 474 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:10,599 So yeah. I mean, I think that's that's 475 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:11,659 valid as well. 476 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,359 The there are some tools out there. For 477 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,779 example, again, when we were building, like, Ubiquiti 478 00:17:16,919 --> 00:17:19,259 has a a tool where you can, 479 00:17:19,875 --> 00:17:21,795 put in your house plans, be sure that 480 00:17:21,795 --> 00:17:23,394 the scale is right, let it know what 481 00:17:23,394 --> 00:17:24,295 the scale is, 482 00:17:24,674 --> 00:17:27,095 and then it will help you figure out 483 00:17:27,154 --> 00:17:28,134 where to deploy 484 00:17:29,394 --> 00:17:31,555 access points in your house for optimum school. 485 00:17:31,555 --> 00:17:32,279 I use that. 486 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,359 And, and and so there are tools out 487 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:36,859 there, 488 00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:40,599 but there's a certain level of expertise you 489 00:17:40,599 --> 00:17:41,960 need to have to be able to use 490 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,140 them. Now, you know, it's not a survey 491 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,984 tool. It's not gonna it's it's it's not 492 00:17:46,984 --> 00:17:49,464 a, you know, it's not gonna analyze the 493 00:17:49,464 --> 00:17:51,545 signal that's already there, but there are some 494 00:17:51,545 --> 00:17:54,265 some planning apps. But, you've either gotta have 495 00:17:54,265 --> 00:17:56,505 expertise or you've gotta have a floor plan. 496 00:17:56,505 --> 00:17:57,565 You've gotta understand, 497 00:17:58,345 --> 00:17:59,759 you know, even the 498 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,519 the construction of your wall material. You know, 499 00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:04,799 is it you know, are you in a 500 00:18:04,799 --> 00:18:06,259 building that's got some concrete 501 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:08,180 in the walls or steel? 502 00:18:09,599 --> 00:18:11,119 Or is it, you know, just a standard 503 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:12,720 wood frame house? All of those things are 504 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,400 gonna make a difference in your Wi Fi 505 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:15,404 coverage. Yeah. 506 00:18:16,045 --> 00:18:17,744 And, frankly, for 507 00:18:18,365 --> 00:18:20,305 50 to a $100 a month, 508 00:18:20,924 --> 00:18:21,744 most providers, 509 00:18:23,805 --> 00:18:25,805 the the the the revenue is just not 510 00:18:25,805 --> 00:18:28,919 there for them to care. Yep. Exactly. Yep. 511 00:18:28,919 --> 00:18:31,159 That's part of the problem. So another interesting 512 00:18:31,159 --> 00:18:33,240 thing I noticed is he said this report 513 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:33,980 says anyway, 514 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:34,859 that 515 00:18:35,799 --> 00:18:37,899 the problems that but the households 516 00:18:39,159 --> 00:18:41,659 with problems tend to have more devices connected. 517 00:18:42,279 --> 00:18:43,659 So, Yvonne, that means 518 00:18:44,765 --> 00:18:46,065 you need to cool off. 519 00:18:46,525 --> 00:18:48,704 So we were we were we were comparing 520 00:18:48,845 --> 00:18:51,244 the number of devices in our homes, and 521 00:18:51,244 --> 00:18:53,005 I really didn't think I was quite this 522 00:18:53,005 --> 00:18:53,505 bad. 523 00:18:54,845 --> 00:18:55,345 But 524 00:18:55,769 --> 00:18:57,710 I have, at this moment, 525 00:18:58,089 --> 00:18:58,890 33 526 00:18:58,890 --> 00:18:59,950 Wi Fi devices 527 00:19:00,490 --> 00:19:01,789 connected in my house. 528 00:19:03,049 --> 00:19:04,190 Of course, that includes 529 00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:07,070 I mean, that that's that's gonna include 530 00:19:07,609 --> 00:19:11,125 wireless speakers. That includes doorbells. That includes the 531 00:19:11,125 --> 00:19:13,845 kids' video game systems. That includes a few 532 00:19:13,845 --> 00:19:15,144 tablets. That includes 533 00:19:16,085 --> 00:19:17,845 oh gosh. I have one, 534 00:19:19,284 --> 00:19:20,664 light switch that's 535 00:19:20,990 --> 00:19:22,350 Wi Fi. I don't do a lot of 536 00:19:22,350 --> 00:19:24,350 that, but I do have one switch that's 537 00:19:24,350 --> 00:19:25,789 Wi Fi because I wanna be able to 538 00:19:25,789 --> 00:19:27,630 turn the device connected to it off and 539 00:19:27,630 --> 00:19:29,950 on on my phone. You know? So we've 540 00:19:29,950 --> 00:19:31,250 got some of those things. 541 00:19:31,710 --> 00:19:34,350 But I have several APs in my house 542 00:19:34,350 --> 00:19:35,090 as well, 543 00:19:35,424 --> 00:19:36,404 and I designed 544 00:19:36,865 --> 00:19:40,224 a wireless network with Ubiquiti APs and a 545 00:19:40,224 --> 00:19:40,724 controller, 546 00:19:42,464 --> 00:19:43,845 and a PoE switch 547 00:19:44,144 --> 00:19:46,305 and all of those things when we built. 548 00:19:46,305 --> 00:19:47,365 So, again, 549 00:19:48,269 --> 00:19:49,730 I'm not the normal user. 550 00:19:50,190 --> 00:19:53,070 No. Definitely not. The normal user has has 551 00:19:53,070 --> 00:19:55,809 about six, it says. Six to 10. 552 00:19:56,190 --> 00:19:57,890 Now I run around 17, 553 00:19:58,190 --> 00:19:59,809 but that's not just Wi Fi. 554 00:20:00,190 --> 00:20:01,570 That's 17 devices. 555 00:20:02,384 --> 00:20:04,224 If I if I were talking about just 556 00:20:04,224 --> 00:20:05,525 Wi Fi, it's probably 557 00:20:06,785 --> 00:20:07,285 there's 558 00:20:07,585 --> 00:20:08,484 there's probably 559 00:20:08,865 --> 00:20:12,065 a dozen, maybe 11 Wi Fi connected and 560 00:20:12,065 --> 00:20:13,205 the rest are wired. 561 00:20:13,664 --> 00:20:16,269 Because I like I like my main computer 562 00:20:16,269 --> 00:20:18,670 to be wired. All my network attached storage 563 00:20:18,670 --> 00:20:19,650 stuff is wired. 564 00:20:20,350 --> 00:20:22,590 You know? I don't I don't my lab 565 00:20:22,590 --> 00:20:23,570 box is wired. 566 00:20:25,710 --> 00:20:27,965 Yeah. I, so there's since we're since we're 567 00:20:27,965 --> 00:20:31,404 comparing sizes, my, I have 12 in my 568 00:20:31,404 --> 00:20:33,025 house, and they're all 569 00:20:33,725 --> 00:20:35,585 it's all, like, TVs and 570 00:20:35,965 --> 00:20:37,644 that's, like, speakers, like, that sort of thing 571 00:20:37,644 --> 00:20:39,404 that you're talking about, Yvonne. And I don't 572 00:20:39,404 --> 00:20:41,825 even have smart appliances. Like, I don't have 573 00:20:42,039 --> 00:20:42,859 smart fridge 574 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,579 or washer, dishwasher, anything. Yeah. 575 00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:48,539 Most higher end appliances 576 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:51,319 come with all that now, and so I 577 00:20:51,319 --> 00:20:53,640 hooked mine up just because I could. But, 578 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,160 yeah, I have 43 579 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:55,660 total 580 00:20:55,964 --> 00:20:58,765 devices, including the physically wired ones. So that 581 00:20:58,765 --> 00:21:01,325 includes all the network gear and my son's 582 00:21:01,325 --> 00:21:04,944 gaming PC and yeah. Yeah. Sad. I'm sorry. 583 00:21:05,085 --> 00:21:07,404 It's okay. I don't I don't I try 584 00:21:07,404 --> 00:21:08,384 not to attach. 585 00:21:08,779 --> 00:21:11,039 I intentionally do not connect my 586 00:21:11,579 --> 00:21:12,799 my washer and dryer 587 00:21:13,339 --> 00:21:15,279 to the wife to the home Wi Fi. 588 00:21:16,139 --> 00:21:17,740 I don't know. It's like a thing with 589 00:21:17,740 --> 00:21:18,240 me. 590 00:21:21,115 --> 00:21:23,674 It's probably calling home to China anyway. Yeah. 591 00:21:23,674 --> 00:21:24,174 Probably. 592 00:21:24,794 --> 00:21:26,654 I'm part of the great bot army. 593 00:21:27,275 --> 00:21:28,815 Yeah. It it could be. 594 00:21:30,315 --> 00:21:31,994 People make jokes about that, but I actually 595 00:21:31,994 --> 00:21:33,994 had that happen. I got a little PDU, 596 00:21:33,994 --> 00:21:35,670 a switch PDU that you could log in 597 00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:36,890 and toggle the power, 598 00:21:37,269 --> 00:21:38,410 and I decided 599 00:21:38,789 --> 00:21:40,789 to, do a packet capture on it. And 600 00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:42,170 I looked at it, and I was like, 601 00:21:42,230 --> 00:21:44,170 oh, it really is going to China. 602 00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:48,490 Wow. 603 00:21:48,789 --> 00:21:49,289 That's 604 00:21:50,174 --> 00:21:51,394 that's pretty sad. 605 00:21:52,255 --> 00:21:54,575 So yeah. So I thought that was interesting, 606 00:21:54,575 --> 00:21:56,434 and I think it speaks to 607 00:21:57,055 --> 00:21:59,295 a realm of play a a realm of 608 00:21:59,295 --> 00:21:59,795 things. 609 00:22:00,815 --> 00:22:03,210 It's not just it's I shouldn't say it's 610 00:22:03,210 --> 00:22:04,349 just on the providers, 611 00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:05,150 the 612 00:22:05,529 --> 00:22:06,670 the access providers. 613 00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:09,130 This also speaks to some degree to the 614 00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:10,109 level of maturity 615 00:22:10,890 --> 00:22:12,910 of Wi Fi equipment in the market. 616 00:22:14,250 --> 00:22:15,309 Like, it's not. 617 00:22:15,875 --> 00:22:16,534 This shouldn't, 618 00:22:17,075 --> 00:22:19,335 you shouldn't have to do a site survey 619 00:22:19,954 --> 00:22:21,095 for a small building. 620 00:22:21,554 --> 00:22:23,075 You shouldn't need to do a lot of 621 00:22:23,075 --> 00:22:24,514 this stuff. You should be able to plug 622 00:22:24,514 --> 00:22:25,494 this stuff in 623 00:22:26,115 --> 00:22:28,034 and it should figure out what channel to 624 00:22:28,034 --> 00:22:29,474 go on and it should figure out how 625 00:22:29,474 --> 00:22:31,289 much power to put on which beam. 626 00:22:31,850 --> 00:22:33,450 I mean, if you can do beam forming 627 00:22:33,450 --> 00:22:34,190 in the device, 628 00:22:35,130 --> 00:22:37,769 you can control that. Oh, I'm only five 629 00:22:37,769 --> 00:22:40,330 feet from the wall here, and I'm 20 630 00:22:40,330 --> 00:22:41,710 feet from the wall there. 631 00:22:42,090 --> 00:22:43,690 You can control that you don't put that 632 00:22:43,690 --> 00:22:45,869 much power towards an exterior wall. 633 00:22:46,595 --> 00:22:49,095 Like, there are I there are things 634 00:22:49,634 --> 00:22:51,414 I don't necessarily understand 635 00:22:51,715 --> 00:22:52,215 why, 636 00:22:53,474 --> 00:22:55,634 we don't do more of. But then again, 637 00:22:55,634 --> 00:22:56,934 maybe it's a money thing. 638 00:22:57,555 --> 00:22:59,075 Maybe it goes back to there's no money 639 00:22:59,075 --> 00:23:00,455 in these devices. So 640 00:23:01,315 --> 00:23:01,980 I don't know. 641 00:23:03,740 --> 00:23:05,819 It's where it usually all goes back to, 642 00:23:05,819 --> 00:23:06,319 Russ. 643 00:23:06,779 --> 00:23:08,559 I know. It's sad, man. 644 00:23:11,259 --> 00:23:13,980 So alright. So the second article is about 645 00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:15,980 is on Thinking Sideways, which is a really 646 00:23:15,980 --> 00:23:17,759 cool vlog if you don't follow it. 647 00:23:18,674 --> 00:23:21,095 It's about software development. So it's not 648 00:23:21,634 --> 00:23:23,095 network engineering specifically, 649 00:23:23,554 --> 00:23:25,315 but, you know, we overlap a lot more 650 00:23:25,315 --> 00:23:27,234 now than we used to. Network engineering and 651 00:23:27,234 --> 00:23:29,335 software development are much more overlap. 652 00:23:30,660 --> 00:23:32,360 And it's about apathy. 653 00:23:33,140 --> 00:23:33,640 Alright. 654 00:23:34,420 --> 00:23:35,640 I'm just gonna say, 655 00:23:36,820 --> 00:23:39,000 go ahead, Yvonne. I'll just be apathetic. 656 00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:44,684 So I I I used to work with 657 00:23:44,684 --> 00:23:46,785 a with a fellow, and he was, 658 00:23:48,365 --> 00:23:50,544 he he was an interesting character, but, 659 00:23:51,244 --> 00:23:53,345 he had the the definition 660 00:23:54,204 --> 00:23:55,585 of the word despondent 661 00:23:56,365 --> 00:23:56,865 memorized. 662 00:23:57,820 --> 00:24:00,140 And it's one of the most fabulous definitions 663 00:24:00,140 --> 00:24:01,279 in the English language. 664 00:24:02,140 --> 00:24:04,000 But he would, he would say, 665 00:24:04,539 --> 00:24:06,799 despondent is a deep dejection 666 00:24:07,660 --> 00:24:09,119 arising from the conviction 667 00:24:09,660 --> 00:24:10,559 of the uselessness 668 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:12,075 of further effort. 669 00:24:14,075 --> 00:24:16,335 And I think that's a pretty good summary 670 00:24:16,634 --> 00:24:18,494 of what it is to be apathetic. 671 00:24:19,595 --> 00:24:21,994 But the the phrase, the uselessness of further 672 00:24:21,994 --> 00:24:22,494 effort. 673 00:24:23,755 --> 00:24:26,714 And and, and and yeah. And and look. 674 00:24:26,714 --> 00:24:27,329 Like, it's 675 00:24:27,890 --> 00:24:30,470 it's very easy to get caught up in 676 00:24:30,769 --> 00:24:32,789 a corporate world where 677 00:24:35,089 --> 00:24:37,409 everybody seems to get the same rewards whether 678 00:24:37,409 --> 00:24:40,690 they, you know, exceed or whether they, you 679 00:24:40,690 --> 00:24:43,269 know, barely scrape by in all of those 680 00:24:43,705 --> 00:24:46,184 things, or whether they grow and improve and 681 00:24:46,184 --> 00:24:49,565 make real substantive changes, or they just kinda 682 00:24:49,945 --> 00:24:51,404 hang out and collect a paycheck. 683 00:24:52,345 --> 00:24:53,085 I think 684 00:24:53,545 --> 00:24:55,884 the latter of those two things is damaging 685 00:24:55,945 --> 00:24:57,799 to us as humans because I think we 686 00:24:57,799 --> 00:24:59,400 need to work and feel productive and, like, 687 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,680 we're creating things. Mhmm. But I also think 688 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,460 apathy is a real 689 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,660 challenge in our world, especially when 690 00:25:09,025 --> 00:25:09,525 organizations 691 00:25:09,904 --> 00:25:13,424 don't connect our work to anything meaningful that 692 00:25:13,424 --> 00:25:14,644 we're actually producing. 693 00:25:15,345 --> 00:25:17,744 Yeah. There's there's a couple of interesting things 694 00:25:17,744 --> 00:25:19,825 here in the causes of apathy in this 695 00:25:19,825 --> 00:25:21,684 article I thought were really good. Like, 696 00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:26,549 the quickest way to cause cultural apathy, so 697 00:25:26,549 --> 00:25:28,569 the author differentiates between 698 00:25:28,869 --> 00:25:32,069 cultural and personal and leadership or job apathy, 699 00:25:32,069 --> 00:25:32,569 whatever, 700 00:25:33,190 --> 00:25:34,490 cause cultural apathy 701 00:25:34,869 --> 00:25:37,750 is by rejecting or suppressing ideas raised by 702 00:25:37,750 --> 00:25:38,250 employees. 703 00:25:38,764 --> 00:25:40,764 I cannot tell you the number of times 704 00:25:40,764 --> 00:25:41,825 I've been in jobs 705 00:25:42,284 --> 00:25:45,164 and people have come up with absolutely drop 706 00:25:45,164 --> 00:25:46,544 dead brilliant ideas. 707 00:25:47,964 --> 00:25:48,865 And everybody 708 00:25:49,325 --> 00:25:51,585 on the team of the entire management says, 709 00:25:51,929 --> 00:25:53,629 nah. We're not doing that. 710 00:25:54,089 --> 00:25:56,809 Or, oh, yeah. Good idea. Good luck with 711 00:25:56,809 --> 00:25:58,509 getting it done in five years. 712 00:25:59,849 --> 00:26:01,069 And that just, like, 713 00:26:01,369 --> 00:26:03,629 just totally destroys your willingness 714 00:26:04,715 --> 00:26:07,695 to continue fighting to get anything done. 715 00:26:08,234 --> 00:26:10,634 And and yeah. I mean, the number of 716 00:26:10,634 --> 00:26:12,955 times I've been told, it's gonna take five 717 00:26:12,955 --> 00:26:14,555 years to develop that. It's gonna take five 718 00:26:14,555 --> 00:26:15,775 years to deploy that. 719 00:26:16,555 --> 00:26:19,134 Well, you don't feel like what's the point 720 00:26:19,399 --> 00:26:21,559 of even trying if it's gonna take five 721 00:26:21,559 --> 00:26:22,059 years? 722 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,720 You know, there's an old saying in the 723 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,720 coding world, it's either two hours, two weeks, 724 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:28,539 or too long. 725 00:26:33,795 --> 00:26:34,035 Well 726 00:26:34,914 --> 00:26:37,075 and, you know, I think we have also 727 00:26:37,075 --> 00:26:39,255 gotten used to an employment cycle 728 00:26:39,555 --> 00:26:41,714 where folks stay in a role two or 729 00:26:41,714 --> 00:26:42,454 three years. 730 00:26:42,994 --> 00:26:45,380 And if they can't accomplish an objective 731 00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:47,859 within that time frame, 732 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,119 it just falls off the list. It's it's 733 00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:53,279 you know, we've lost the sense of long 734 00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:55,680 term thinking, you know, the value of planting 735 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,099 a tree. Like, we could we could wax 736 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,259 philosophical about it. But, 737 00:27:01,335 --> 00:27:02,375 yeah, that's that's 738 00:27:03,015 --> 00:27:05,894 it's and it's very tempting. It's very tempting 739 00:27:05,894 --> 00:27:07,575 in the moment to be like, well, why 740 00:27:07,575 --> 00:27:08,075 try? 741 00:27:10,694 --> 00:27:11,914 If there's no, 742 00:27:12,535 --> 00:27:15,400 like, obvious reward in it for me that's 743 00:27:15,619 --> 00:27:16,119 monetary 744 00:27:16,420 --> 00:27:18,980 or accolades or something like that. And it 745 00:27:18,980 --> 00:27:20,980 can't it I was gonna say, actually, a 746 00:27:20,980 --> 00:27:21,720 lot of times, 747 00:27:22,019 --> 00:27:24,200 just telling people they're doing a good job 748 00:27:24,420 --> 00:27:26,820 when they, for themselves, can see that nothing 749 00:27:26,820 --> 00:27:27,720 that they're doing 750 00:27:28,845 --> 00:27:29,904 has any impact, 751 00:27:30,285 --> 00:27:33,105 actually, I think increases the amount of apathy. 752 00:27:34,605 --> 00:27:36,704 Because, like, why am I bothering? 753 00:27:37,484 --> 00:27:38,144 You know? 754 00:27:38,845 --> 00:27:40,605 Yeah. I'm gonna be told I'm a good 755 00:27:40,605 --> 00:27:41,825 boy, but 756 00:27:42,509 --> 00:27:44,769 nothing I've done has been deployed 757 00:27:45,789 --> 00:27:47,490 in the last two years. So 758 00:27:47,789 --> 00:27:49,029 you can tell me how good I am. 759 00:27:49,029 --> 00:27:51,630 I this that's neither here nor there. What 760 00:27:51,630 --> 00:27:54,269 matters is is my stuff getting done? Is 761 00:27:54,269 --> 00:27:57,144 my stuff my ideas being deployed? No. If 762 00:27:57,144 --> 00:27:59,404 they're not, they're not. Then too bad. 763 00:27:59,785 --> 00:28:01,625 Another one that's interesting, I think, the companies 764 00:28:01,625 --> 00:28:04,585 handle completely wrong is the wrong job apathy 765 00:28:04,585 --> 00:28:06,025 he talks about or she talks about here. 766 00:28:06,025 --> 00:28:07,545 Actually, I never looked at the author to 767 00:28:07,545 --> 00:28:09,559 see who this is really this person talks 768 00:28:09,559 --> 00:28:11,019 about, the author talks about, 769 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,880 is that, you know, some employees have a 770 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,200 job that isn't right for them anymore and 771 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,900 they're just keeping it out of convenience. 772 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,119 So what I notice a lot of companies 773 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:20,619 do 774 00:28:21,835 --> 00:28:24,315 is they take this person and they manage 775 00:28:24,315 --> 00:28:25,054 them out 776 00:28:26,315 --> 00:28:28,154 rather than trying to put them in any 777 00:28:28,154 --> 00:28:30,794 place. They say, if you don't perform where 778 00:28:30,794 --> 00:28:33,194 you are, we're not moving you some other 779 00:28:33,194 --> 00:28:33,694 place. 780 00:28:34,819 --> 00:28:36,900 And that just seems so odd to me 781 00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:38,920 because it might not be the person. 782 00:28:40,259 --> 00:28:42,579 It might be the job they're in. And 783 00:28:42,579 --> 00:28:44,099 it might be that if you move them 784 00:28:44,099 --> 00:28:46,579 to a new job, they could perform 10 785 00:28:46,579 --> 00:28:47,559 times better 786 00:28:48,339 --> 00:28:49,559 than what they're doing. 787 00:28:50,565 --> 00:28:51,845 But you just look at them and go, 788 00:28:51,845 --> 00:28:54,325 your performance isn't good enough. You've gotta perform 789 00:28:54,325 --> 00:28:55,845 doing the thing that you don't like to 790 00:28:55,845 --> 00:28:56,345 do, 791 00:28:56,724 --> 00:28:59,044 and it really stinks before we'll put you 792 00:28:59,044 --> 00:29:00,325 in a place where you can do the 793 00:29:00,325 --> 00:29:01,544 thing that's actually 794 00:29:02,005 --> 00:29:03,625 gonna be good for you to do. 795 00:29:04,390 --> 00:29:06,390 And that's just a weird way of looking 796 00:29:06,390 --> 00:29:07,049 at things 797 00:29:07,429 --> 00:29:09,669 to me. But Well, the I mean, the 798 00:29:09,669 --> 00:29:10,950 other side of that is if you have 799 00:29:10,950 --> 00:29:12,169 someone who's not performing 800 00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:14,490 and you move them into some other area, 801 00:29:14,869 --> 00:29:17,269 what's what evidence do you have that they're 802 00:29:17,269 --> 00:29:18,585 going to do any better in the other 803 00:29:18,585 --> 00:29:20,265 area? Mhmm. Then then you end up just 804 00:29:20,265 --> 00:29:21,964 giving a problem to somebody else. 805 00:29:22,505 --> 00:29:24,105 And, like, I I see what you're saying, 806 00:29:24,105 --> 00:29:25,785 Russ, but I also I could also see 807 00:29:25,785 --> 00:29:26,845 how it's like, well, 808 00:29:27,224 --> 00:29:28,984 if we can't if we can't move this 809 00:29:28,984 --> 00:29:31,065 person out, then I'll just move them out 810 00:29:31,065 --> 00:29:34,170 of my area because having people who are 811 00:29:34,170 --> 00:29:34,670 apathetic 812 00:29:35,130 --> 00:29:37,210 is also hard for managers to deal with. 813 00:29:37,210 --> 00:29:39,369 Oh, yeah. Like, it's, you know 814 00:29:40,009 --> 00:29:42,430 Well and and while we're talking about apathy 815 00:29:42,569 --> 00:29:43,309 for managers, 816 00:29:44,170 --> 00:29:45,230 it is significantly 817 00:29:46,009 --> 00:29:46,509 easier 818 00:29:47,215 --> 00:29:49,855 to move a poor performer on your team 819 00:29:49,855 --> 00:29:50,914 to another team 820 00:29:51,375 --> 00:29:53,795 than to manage them out in most organizations. 821 00:29:54,494 --> 00:29:56,335 The you know, you you gotta do your 822 00:29:56,335 --> 00:29:56,835 documentation. 823 00:29:57,375 --> 00:29:58,914 You've got, you know, 824 00:29:59,375 --> 00:30:01,215 you've you've you've gotta have a PIP. You've 825 00:30:01,215 --> 00:30:01,799 gotta demonstrate 826 00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:04,920 given them opportunities to improve. In in most 827 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,440 organizations, there's an entire process that you have 828 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,340 to go through to manage someone out. 829 00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:12,059 It is in it is much easier 830 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,640 to just shuffle them off to another part 831 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:16,460 of the org, 832 00:30:16,865 --> 00:30:19,605 and they're no longer your problem, which, again, 833 00:30:19,744 --> 00:30:21,825 is just a different type of apathy. It 834 00:30:21,825 --> 00:30:23,605 is it is it is, 835 00:30:23,904 --> 00:30:25,505 you know, it's a lack of concern for 836 00:30:25,505 --> 00:30:27,424 the people that that report to you and 837 00:30:27,424 --> 00:30:28,244 for the organization, 838 00:30:29,424 --> 00:30:32,470 because you're willing to allow that person to 839 00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:32,970 continue 840 00:30:33,670 --> 00:30:33,990 to, 841 00:30:35,670 --> 00:30:37,289 frankly, waste corporate resources 842 00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:40,970 if if they're not able to perform well. 843 00:30:41,269 --> 00:30:42,730 Right? And and, 844 00:30:43,224 --> 00:30:44,924 also, when you have poor performing 845 00:30:45,304 --> 00:30:45,804 employees, 846 00:30:46,825 --> 00:30:47,325 that 847 00:30:48,744 --> 00:30:51,484 increases the apathy of the folks around them. 848 00:30:52,345 --> 00:30:54,904 Yeah. Of course. Yeah. High performers don't are 849 00:30:54,904 --> 00:30:55,644 not interested. 850 00:30:56,504 --> 00:30:58,769 Especially, extremely high performers are not 851 00:30:59,890 --> 00:31:00,869 interested in working with 852 00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:03,509 people who don't care. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. 853 00:31:03,650 --> 00:31:04,150 And 854 00:31:04,930 --> 00:31:07,250 but what the other thing that companies do 855 00:31:07,250 --> 00:31:09,250 that really drives me crazy is instead of 856 00:31:09,250 --> 00:31:11,144 going through the process, they just do constructive 857 00:31:11,305 --> 00:31:11,805 dismissal, 858 00:31:13,065 --> 00:31:15,865 which is make your life miserable until you 859 00:31:15,865 --> 00:31:16,365 quit. 860 00:31:17,705 --> 00:31:19,964 And that's that to me is, 861 00:31:20,825 --> 00:31:23,945 like, you're actually driving apathy in your team 862 00:31:23,945 --> 00:31:25,470 when you do that. People don't think about 863 00:31:25,470 --> 00:31:27,789 this. But you're actually not only hurting the 864 00:31:27,789 --> 00:31:30,509 person you're trying to manage out by playing 865 00:31:30,509 --> 00:31:32,289 that game, you're actually 866 00:31:33,069 --> 00:31:35,869 causing problems on your team. Of course. Because 867 00:31:35,869 --> 00:31:37,170 that because that person 868 00:31:37,630 --> 00:31:38,769 is especially 869 00:31:39,505 --> 00:31:41,505 if the rest of the team respects them 870 00:31:41,505 --> 00:31:42,964 in any way, shape, or form, 871 00:31:43,345 --> 00:31:45,765 you are generating a situation where 872 00:31:46,544 --> 00:31:48,944 everyone can see that you're treating this person 873 00:31:48,944 --> 00:31:51,204 unfairly because you wanna get rid of them. 874 00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:54,720 And that is just not a cool place 875 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:56,099 to be, honestly. 876 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,559 Just not a cool place to be. But 877 00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:00,339 it's very common in Silicon Valley 878 00:32:01,759 --> 00:32:02,420 in my 879 00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:04,179 in my experience. 880 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:05,839 I know a lot of people it's happened 881 00:32:05,839 --> 00:32:07,220 to, so it's very, 882 00:32:08,694 --> 00:32:09,194 anyway. 883 00:32:10,534 --> 00:32:13,034 There's a there's a great paragraph here, 884 00:32:13,494 --> 00:32:14,315 where the 885 00:32:15,015 --> 00:32:16,154 the author says, 886 00:32:17,095 --> 00:32:19,194 I also want to point out that employees 887 00:32:19,255 --> 00:32:20,714 don't owe intrinsic 888 00:32:21,015 --> 00:32:22,554 motivation to their employer. 889 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,360 If anything, they owe it to themselves since 890 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,279 they not only will become better at their 891 00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:29,360 job, but also will have a much better 892 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,420 time doing it. 893 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:33,039 Over time, it might even get them that 894 00:32:33,039 --> 00:32:35,299 promotion that they have always eyed. 895 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,019 And and what I have found 896 00:32:38,524 --> 00:32:41,184 in folks that are that are high performers, 897 00:32:43,005 --> 00:32:45,724 is that if you're able to focus on 898 00:32:45,724 --> 00:32:48,605 a task and continue to grow, even if 899 00:32:48,605 --> 00:32:50,865 you're in a situation that might otherwise 900 00:32:51,484 --> 00:32:52,464 fuel apathy, 901 00:32:55,730 --> 00:32:59,009 that will ultimately have a significantly more positive 902 00:32:59,009 --> 00:33:01,089 outcome for you than had you just given 903 00:33:01,089 --> 00:33:02,069 into the apathy. 904 00:33:02,769 --> 00:33:05,410 And, again, frankly, I I think we are 905 00:33:05,410 --> 00:33:08,230 all intrinsically made to produce 906 00:33:08,529 --> 00:33:11,164 and do something that we find meaningful. Mhmm. 907 00:33:11,224 --> 00:33:12,765 And you'll just be happier 908 00:33:13,144 --> 00:33:14,984 if you do that. Even if it's not 909 00:33:14,984 --> 00:33:15,484 acknowledged, 910 00:33:16,105 --> 00:33:17,944 even if you never get the raise, even 911 00:33:17,944 --> 00:33:19,544 if you never get the promotion. And I'm 912 00:33:19,544 --> 00:33:21,384 not saying you should say stay where you 913 00:33:21,384 --> 00:33:22,619 are if you never do. 914 00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:23,900 But, 915 00:33:25,579 --> 00:33:27,839 but, like, giving in to that, 916 00:33:28,380 --> 00:33:29,839 you know, despondency 917 00:33:30,859 --> 00:33:33,039 is not the right course of action. 918 00:33:33,740 --> 00:33:34,640 Yeah. Yeah. 919 00:33:34,974 --> 00:33:36,494 And and I think there are two other 920 00:33:36,494 --> 00:33:36,654 very 921 00:33:37,855 --> 00:33:39,934 refrain from trying to fix the apathy of 922 00:33:39,934 --> 00:33:41,855 others. You're probably not gonna be able to 923 00:33:41,855 --> 00:33:42,514 do it. 924 00:33:43,134 --> 00:33:44,575 It's okay if you try to fix the 925 00:33:44,575 --> 00:33:46,494 culture, improve the culture, but you're not gonna 926 00:33:46,494 --> 00:33:48,990 fix your coworker who's in, you 927 00:33:49,369 --> 00:33:52,349 know, focus on breaking cultural apathy, not individual. 928 00:33:52,730 --> 00:33:55,289 Although, on the other hand, if the person's 929 00:33:55,289 --> 00:33:56,509 going through a hard time, 930 00:33:57,049 --> 00:33:58,890 like, you can lift them up. You should 931 00:33:58,890 --> 00:34:00,490 be there. You should be their friend. You 932 00:34:00,490 --> 00:34:00,990 should 933 00:34:01,315 --> 00:34:03,494 reach out and try to figure out 934 00:34:03,795 --> 00:34:05,394 what's going on and what you can do 935 00:34:05,394 --> 00:34:07,654 to help because that does help 936 00:34:08,114 --> 00:34:09,175 improve the cultural 937 00:34:09,715 --> 00:34:11,235 apathy problem as well as, 938 00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:14,250 you know, just 939 00:34:14,950 --> 00:34:16,970 being just being a good person altogether. 940 00:34:18,550 --> 00:34:20,550 The other thing that's interesting is don't be 941 00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:21,530 afraid to leave. 942 00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:23,910 The the the author says this a couple 943 00:34:23,910 --> 00:34:26,230 of times. Just don't don't think don't be 944 00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:27,974 afraid to leave Because 945 00:34:28,514 --> 00:34:29,974 if you're in the wrong job, 946 00:34:30,835 --> 00:34:32,675 staying where you are is not doing anybody 947 00:34:32,675 --> 00:34:33,494 any favors. 948 00:34:34,275 --> 00:34:36,114 If you're being managed out, staying where you 949 00:34:36,114 --> 00:34:38,614 are is you're not gonna beat it eventually. 950 00:34:39,155 --> 00:34:40,994 If you're not having an impact on the 951 00:34:40,994 --> 00:34:41,494 culture, 952 00:34:41,980 --> 00:34:43,900 believe if you've been in a job for 953 00:34:43,900 --> 00:34:45,119 three years or four 954 00:34:45,500 --> 00:34:46,400 years and you 955 00:34:48,140 --> 00:34:49,440 have had no impact 956 00:34:50,059 --> 00:34:52,219 or your impact has been removed, you've been 957 00:34:52,219 --> 00:34:54,140 moved into a position where you no longer 958 00:34:54,140 --> 00:34:56,394 have what you think should be 959 00:34:57,094 --> 00:34:59,494 the power over decisions or the point, whatever 960 00:34:59,494 --> 00:35:00,315 that you should, 961 00:35:01,414 --> 00:35:03,434 don't think they're gonna move you back 962 00:35:04,375 --> 00:35:06,659 in a couple of years. Like, don't go, 963 00:35:06,659 --> 00:35:09,219 well, if I work really hard, then somebody 964 00:35:09,219 --> 00:35:11,059 eventually will look on my work and say, 965 00:35:11,059 --> 00:35:12,980 well, okay. I'll I'll bring you back into 966 00:35:13,219 --> 00:35:13,719 no. 967 00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:15,400 No. 968 00:35:15,859 --> 00:35:17,079 It's not gonna happen. 969 00:35:18,099 --> 00:35:20,474 Sorry. It's not the way corporate culture works. 970 00:35:21,355 --> 00:35:23,914 Move on. Well, and especially for technical people, 971 00:35:23,914 --> 00:35:24,815 it doesn't matter. 972 00:35:25,275 --> 00:35:27,934 To some degree, technical excellence is a secondary 973 00:35:27,994 --> 00:35:30,335 concern anyway. Mhmm. Like, you have to demonstrate 974 00:35:30,394 --> 00:35:32,394 to people that the that the success of 975 00:35:32,394 --> 00:35:33,454 the business enterprise 976 00:35:33,994 --> 00:35:36,610 is a result of you. And if you 977 00:35:36,610 --> 00:35:38,309 just sit and wait for someone to come 978 00:35:38,610 --> 00:35:40,130 help you for or, you know, give you 979 00:35:40,130 --> 00:35:41,489 a promotion for being a good boy or 980 00:35:41,489 --> 00:35:42,309 a good girl, 981 00:35:42,849 --> 00:35:45,170 that's depending on them to go find the 982 00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:46,530 needle in the haystack of all the people 983 00:35:46,530 --> 00:35:48,449 that are contributing and figure out that your 984 00:35:48,449 --> 00:35:51,335 needle was important. People don't do that. Yep. 985 00:35:51,335 --> 00:35:52,394 That's exactly right. 986 00:35:52,775 --> 00:35:54,614 And and we talk about this a lot 987 00:35:54,614 --> 00:35:56,775 in manager circles because I I I work 988 00:35:56,775 --> 00:35:58,875 at an organization that that is 989 00:35:59,894 --> 00:36:00,394 wanna, 990 00:36:00,775 --> 00:36:02,394 you know, very high performing. 991 00:36:03,974 --> 00:36:06,315 People are always clamoring for promotions 992 00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:08,849 and for rewards. And and 993 00:36:09,630 --> 00:36:11,809 the folks that are most likely 994 00:36:12,510 --> 00:36:13,329 to get 995 00:36:13,789 --> 00:36:14,610 those promotions 996 00:36:15,949 --> 00:36:18,110 are not the folks chasing them, but the 997 00:36:18,110 --> 00:36:21,150 folks out there doing interesting work that they're 998 00:36:21,150 --> 00:36:22,210 passionate about. 999 00:36:22,644 --> 00:36:23,144 And 1000 00:36:23,684 --> 00:36:25,465 so the the more you focus 1001 00:36:25,765 --> 00:36:26,265 on 1002 00:36:27,364 --> 00:36:28,425 and and need 1003 00:36:28,805 --> 00:36:29,305 that, 1004 00:36:29,605 --> 00:36:31,545 you know, those external motivators, 1005 00:36:32,164 --> 00:36:34,244 the the actually harder it is to get 1006 00:36:34,244 --> 00:36:36,184 where you want. I'm not saying that organizations 1007 00:36:36,539 --> 00:36:38,719 shouldn't reward people and shouldn't give them, 1008 00:36:39,340 --> 00:36:40,559 accolades. They absolutely 1009 00:36:40,860 --> 00:36:41,360 should. 1010 00:36:42,699 --> 00:36:43,920 At the same time, 1011 00:36:44,460 --> 00:36:44,960 the 1012 00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:47,340 the most successful path there, even if you 1013 00:36:47,340 --> 00:36:49,900 wanna be pragmatic about it, is just to 1014 00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:52,160 go do the work and build something interesting. 1015 00:36:53,074 --> 00:36:54,674 And then the the other thing I wanted 1016 00:36:54,674 --> 00:36:56,214 to just mention is, like, 1017 00:36:57,074 --> 00:36:58,934 we need a certain degree of self awareness 1018 00:36:59,554 --> 00:37:00,214 so that 1019 00:37:00,514 --> 00:37:01,094 we know 1020 00:37:01,795 --> 00:37:04,034 what fuels our jets. Because it it may 1021 00:37:04,034 --> 00:37:05,394 be different for me than it is for 1022 00:37:05,394 --> 00:37:06,775 Russ than it is for Tom. 1023 00:37:07,154 --> 00:37:08,054 And and 1024 00:37:08,380 --> 00:37:10,800 you have to take control and seek out 1025 00:37:10,940 --> 00:37:12,239 what it is that 1026 00:37:14,059 --> 00:37:16,619 that keeps you from becoming apathetic. And that's 1027 00:37:16,619 --> 00:37:18,880 not always the day job. It could be 1028 00:37:19,579 --> 00:37:21,359 a a side project or, 1029 00:37:21,739 --> 00:37:23,594 you know, something that you do in your 1030 00:37:23,594 --> 00:37:25,914 free time that that gives your, you know, 1031 00:37:25,914 --> 00:37:27,614 your life meaning and energy 1032 00:37:28,315 --> 00:37:30,315 that may not be the day job, and 1033 00:37:30,315 --> 00:37:31,454 that will actually 1034 00:37:31,994 --> 00:37:34,074 impact how you show up and perform at 1035 00:37:34,074 --> 00:37:34,530 work. 1036 00:37:35,969 --> 00:37:37,110 Yeah. Sure. 1037 00:37:39,090 --> 00:37:41,909 So that's all I got. Anything else, Tom? 1038 00:37:42,769 --> 00:37:45,409 No. On that one? Anything else, Yvonne, on 1039 00:37:45,409 --> 00:37:48,074 that one? Nope. It's good stuff. Yep. It's 1040 00:37:48,074 --> 00:37:48,815 all good. 1041 00:37:49,195 --> 00:37:51,275 I'll try to keep these links and drop 1042 00:37:51,275 --> 00:37:53,434 them in the show notes or at least 1043 00:37:53,434 --> 00:37:54,574 this one on the apathy. 1044 00:37:55,355 --> 00:37:57,355 I'll stick it over in my pile of 1045 00:37:57,355 --> 00:37:58,795 things that I need to keep for the 1046 00:37:58,795 --> 00:37:59,295 moment. 1047 00:38:00,234 --> 00:38:02,175 You know, I live my life in OneNote. 1048 00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:06,170 So I'll stick it over in OneNote and 1049 00:38:07,269 --> 00:38:08,090 I'm sorry. 1050 00:38:09,750 --> 00:38:10,730 I don't know. 1051 00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:12,489 When I was doing my PhD, 1052 00:38:13,110 --> 00:38:15,190 I needed a place to build outlines of 1053 00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:17,050 books in an organized way. 1054 00:38:17,625 --> 00:38:20,905 And I tried, like, documents and directories, and 1055 00:38:20,905 --> 00:38:23,144 I just was like, this just doesn't this 1056 00:38:23,144 --> 00:38:24,525 is not gonna cut the mustard. 1057 00:38:24,985 --> 00:38:26,125 So I tried several 1058 00:38:26,425 --> 00:38:28,445 notebook type programs, and 1059 00:38:28,744 --> 00:38:31,005 I just couldn't there wasn't any of them 1060 00:38:31,385 --> 00:38:33,324 with enough levels of 1061 00:38:33,890 --> 00:38:34,390 organization. 1062 00:38:35,170 --> 00:38:36,769 Most of them have, like, three levels of 1063 00:38:36,769 --> 00:38:37,269 organization. 1064 00:38:37,809 --> 00:38:39,670 And I really want, like, notebooks, 1065 00:38:40,450 --> 00:38:40,950 sections, 1066 00:38:41,489 --> 00:38:42,630 groups of sections, 1067 00:38:43,410 --> 00:38:45,510 pages, you know, like, 1068 00:38:45,969 --> 00:38:46,469 divisions, 1069 00:38:46,769 --> 00:38:50,215 like, lots of different so, anyway, OneNote seems 1070 00:38:50,215 --> 00:38:51,515 to work for that. So, 1071 00:38:51,974 --> 00:38:54,695 anyway alright. Cool. Yvonne, where can people find 1072 00:38:54,695 --> 00:38:55,835 you if they want to? 1073 00:38:56,535 --> 00:38:58,695 Yeah. A couple of things. So I am 1074 00:38:58,695 --> 00:39:01,569 going to be speaking at AutoCon in Austin 1075 00:39:01,569 --> 00:39:02,309 in mid, 1076 00:39:03,170 --> 00:39:04,690 November. So I don't know if this will 1077 00:39:04,690 --> 00:39:06,849 be out after then. If it is, sorry. 1078 00:39:06,849 --> 00:39:07,750 You missed me. 1079 00:39:08,369 --> 00:39:10,690 But, but, yeah, I'll be at AutoCon in 1080 00:39:10,690 --> 00:39:12,929 Austin in September, just talking about the people 1081 00:39:12,929 --> 00:39:15,429 side of leading technical projects. 1082 00:39:15,965 --> 00:39:17,724 And then you can always find me on 1083 00:39:17,724 --> 00:39:19,664 LinkedIn at Yvonne Sharp, on, 1084 00:39:20,445 --> 00:39:22,704 x at Sharp Network, and then, 1085 00:39:23,885 --> 00:39:26,704 over Packet Pushers. So the Cloud Gambit podcast, 1086 00:39:27,405 --> 00:39:29,824 we release biweekly over there. So 1087 00:39:30,125 --> 00:39:31,184 give us a listen. 1088 00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:32,420 Cool. Awesome. 1089 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:35,940 Tom. 1090 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:36,739 LinkedIn. 1091 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:38,099 Okay. 1092 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:40,500 So funny. 1093 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,980 And I, like Yvonne, will be at AutoCon. 1094 00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:46,339 I will not be speaking. 1095 00:39:47,644 --> 00:39:50,065 My tickets and everything came in too late. 1096 00:39:50,684 --> 00:39:52,844 My ship came in too late for me 1097 00:39:52,844 --> 00:39:55,244 to do much with speaking at Oticon this 1098 00:39:55,244 --> 00:39:56,224 year. But 1099 00:39:56,525 --> 00:39:58,605 I am going to be at Oticon. So 1100 00:39:58,605 --> 00:40:00,284 if you wanna find me, I'll be somewhere 1101 00:40:00,284 --> 00:40:00,784 around 1102 00:40:01,139 --> 00:40:03,460 Nokia or just walking the floor or I 1103 00:40:03,460 --> 00:40:05,139 don't know. I have no idea what I'm 1104 00:40:05,139 --> 00:40:06,739 doing yet. I'm just gonna be hanging out. 1105 00:40:06,739 --> 00:40:08,359 So feel free to find me there. 1106 00:40:08,900 --> 00:40:10,900 Sorry, Russ, if I could say. So Austin's 1107 00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:13,380 my hometown. So I'm here if anybody wants 1108 00:40:13,380 --> 00:40:15,045 to go out to lunch or whatever. I'm 1109 00:40:15,045 --> 00:40:16,484 I'm not coming to AutoCon, but I'll come 1110 00:40:16,484 --> 00:40:18,565 to I'll come see you. So Okay. Cool. 1111 00:40:18,565 --> 00:40:20,804 Yeah. Might be. Yeah. Maybe we could have 1112 00:40:20,804 --> 00:40:21,464 a hedge 1113 00:40:21,924 --> 00:40:22,424 lunch. 1114 00:40:22,885 --> 00:40:24,984 Yeah. We could we could find a restaurant 1115 00:40:25,045 --> 00:40:26,184 that serves hedgehogs. 1116 00:40:27,125 --> 00:40:27,625 Tacos. 1117 00:40:28,405 --> 00:40:30,505 That's horrible. Right? That's horrible. 1118 00:40:31,260 --> 00:40:32,860 Why would you cut up to that cute 1119 00:40:32,860 --> 00:40:33,519 little creature? 1120 00:40:35,099 --> 00:40:36,400 They eat the big ones. 1121 00:40:37,659 --> 00:40:39,179 They really do. They eat the big ones. 1122 00:40:39,179 --> 00:40:40,619 I don't think they eat the little minis, 1123 00:40:40,619 --> 00:40:42,219 but they do eat the big ones. This 1124 00:40:42,219 --> 00:40:43,440 this one took a turn. 1125 00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:44,800 Sure did. 1126 00:40:46,380 --> 00:40:48,934 Alright. And you can find is offended. Hey. 1127 00:40:48,934 --> 00:40:50,074 The plant is offended. 1128 00:40:53,414 --> 00:40:53,914 Wow. 1129 00:40:54,295 --> 00:40:56,795 Okay. You can always find me on LinkedIn, 1130 00:40:57,255 --> 00:40:59,655 on x's routing geek. Every now and again, 1131 00:40:59,655 --> 00:41:01,335 I log in over there. Usually, just to 1132 00:41:01,335 --> 00:41:03,340 post new stuff is up all I ever 1133 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,400 do. I try to stay active every now 1134 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,659 and again, but it's really hard. And 1135 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,480 I don't know. I show up on packet 1136 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,820 pushers every now and again and other podcasts. 1137 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:13,960 And so, anyway, I'm pretty easy to find. 1138 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,000 Rule11.tech 1139 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,780 is a good central place to find me. 1140 00:41:16,954 --> 00:41:18,474 And thank you for listening all the way 1141 00:41:18,474 --> 00:41:20,235 to the bitter end of this episode of 1142 00:41:20,235 --> 00:41:22,894 The Hedge. We know your attention is important, 1143 00:41:23,195 --> 00:41:25,534 and we live in this attention driven world. 1144 00:41:25,594 --> 00:41:27,275 So, again, thank you, and we will catch 1145 00:41:27,275 --> 00:41:28,175 you next time.