1 00:00:01,520 --> 00:00:03,520 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,500 where we dig into technology, business, and culture 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,980 with the finest minds in computer networking. 4 00:00:20,945 --> 00:00:22,785 Hello, Tom. I think since the last time 5 00:00:22,785 --> 00:00:24,564 I've seen it, your plant is 6 00:00:24,864 --> 00:00:25,925 going further 7 00:00:26,225 --> 00:00:27,285 towards the window. 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,640 Yeah. Yeah. It wants it wants the light. 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,260 It's it's moving towards it. 10 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,820 You gotta turn it every now and then. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:36,439 Oh, right. Or else it'll get lopsided. Well, 12 00:00:36,439 --> 00:00:38,140 maybe I'll just see how long it goes. 13 00:00:39,879 --> 00:00:41,899 Plant abuse. We're talking about plant abuse. 14 00:00:43,685 --> 00:00:46,245 Wow. And Yvonne is with us in the 15 00:00:46,245 --> 00:00:48,645 she shed with the frog lamp, which is 16 00:00:48,645 --> 00:00:50,984 awesome. You can actually see the frog lamp. 17 00:00:51,204 --> 00:00:52,965 Yeah. I need to figure I don't remember 18 00:00:52,965 --> 00:00:54,565 actively turning it off. So I don't know 19 00:00:54,565 --> 00:00:55,844 if my bolt's gone out or if it's 20 00:00:55,844 --> 00:00:57,125 come unplugged or I have to take it 21 00:00:57,125 --> 00:00:59,159 out. But I also have a plant. See? 22 00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:01,500 Yes. I see. Yeah. Where the grow light 23 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:02,299 looks like. 24 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:04,840 Yeah. Yeah. With with a girl like a 25 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:05,340 dickenbafia. 26 00:01:06,439 --> 00:01:06,939 Dickenbakia. 27 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:08,140 Dickenbafia. 28 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,319 Okay. I don't know. I can't pronounce anything 29 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:13,180 anyways. I've become a plant lady. 30 00:01:13,545 --> 00:01:15,144 So if you come to my house, I 31 00:01:15,144 --> 00:01:17,484 have plants everywhere. I've become that person. 32 00:01:18,185 --> 00:01:19,805 Is it intermixed with cats? 33 00:01:20,424 --> 00:01:23,224 No. Because my husband is deeply allergic, and 34 00:01:23,224 --> 00:01:25,484 I don't like cats. I'm a dog person. 35 00:01:25,625 --> 00:01:27,299 Yeah. I'm more of a dog person too. 36 00:01:27,380 --> 00:01:28,900 I used to have cats when my kids 37 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:30,200 were young. And 38 00:01:30,659 --> 00:01:32,260 I don't care how hard you try, they 39 00:01:32,260 --> 00:01:33,799 still get on your counters. 40 00:01:34,340 --> 00:01:35,719 And there's just something 41 00:01:36,260 --> 00:01:37,799 about cooking dinner, 42 00:01:38,579 --> 00:01:40,579 and the cat has wandered around on the 43 00:01:40,579 --> 00:01:42,120 counter, and you're just like, 44 00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:44,234 no. I just, it's not that I don't 45 00:01:44,234 --> 00:01:46,415 like their personalities. Not that it's just 46 00:01:46,715 --> 00:01:48,575 that just really disturbs me. 47 00:01:49,275 --> 00:01:51,034 So I have a our our cat only 48 00:01:51,034 --> 00:01:53,115 has three legs and she cannot make it 49 00:01:53,115 --> 00:01:55,215 to the counter. Oh, well, there's yeah. 50 00:01:56,450 --> 00:01:57,890 Not not a not an active solution you 51 00:01:57,890 --> 00:01:59,090 can take, but if you find it for 52 00:01:59,090 --> 00:02:00,789 me, it might work out for you. 53 00:02:01,890 --> 00:02:04,069 Wow. That voice you hear in the background 54 00:02:04,450 --> 00:02:06,689 or that that that radio voice that you 55 00:02:06,689 --> 00:02:09,055 hear talking about his three legged cat is 56 00:02:09,055 --> 00:02:09,794 Chris Grundemann. 57 00:02:10,254 --> 00:02:12,495 Hi. Hey. Yeah. Who needs to be a 58 00:02:12,495 --> 00:02:13,634 guest more often. 59 00:02:13,935 --> 00:02:16,014 We need we need this we need Chris 60 00:02:16,014 --> 00:02:18,655 on more often. So alright, Chris. So we're 61 00:02:18,655 --> 00:02:19,155 talking 62 00:02:19,455 --> 00:02:19,955 about 63 00:02:21,189 --> 00:02:21,689 NetEng 64 00:02:22,150 --> 00:02:24,729 in culture. And I just wanna say 65 00:02:25,509 --> 00:02:26,009 that 66 00:02:26,709 --> 00:02:28,789 I have been in toxic cultures. I have 67 00:02:28,789 --> 00:02:30,169 been in very good cultures. 68 00:02:30,789 --> 00:02:31,289 And 69 00:02:32,469 --> 00:02:34,870 toxic cultures are really bad. They really hurt 70 00:02:34,870 --> 00:02:35,370 people. 71 00:02:36,174 --> 00:02:38,414 I mean, it's not just a matter of 72 00:02:38,414 --> 00:02:40,574 does the work get done. It's a matter 73 00:02:40,574 --> 00:02:41,314 of no. 74 00:02:41,694 --> 00:02:44,354 You're hurting people's families. You're hurting people. 75 00:02:44,814 --> 00:02:47,134 Like, this is that that toxic culture goes 76 00:02:47,134 --> 00:02:47,634 home, 77 00:02:48,014 --> 00:02:49,715 and it's it's really horrible. 78 00:02:50,650 --> 00:02:52,409 They're also bad for business. I'm gonna say 79 00:02:52,409 --> 00:02:54,250 that too. But go ahead, Chris. Exactly right. 80 00:02:54,250 --> 00:02:55,290 Yeah. I mean, that that's the thing. I 81 00:02:55,290 --> 00:02:56,969 think, you know, definitely in the extreme cases, 82 00:02:56,969 --> 00:02:58,650 it it's bad for for for for everyone. 83 00:02:58,650 --> 00:02:59,930 Like you said, Russ, it can be really, 84 00:02:59,930 --> 00:03:00,669 really bad. 85 00:03:01,129 --> 00:03:02,669 But even in fairly functional, 86 00:03:03,370 --> 00:03:03,870 organizations, 87 00:03:04,715 --> 00:03:06,235 you can be missing a lot of opportunity. 88 00:03:06,235 --> 00:03:07,594 Right? And and this goes into I think, 89 00:03:07,594 --> 00:03:08,174 you know, 90 00:03:08,555 --> 00:03:09,354 I I I and I kinda break it 91 00:03:09,354 --> 00:03:10,474 out a little bit. Right? Culture is a 92 00:03:10,474 --> 00:03:12,794 big part of this. I think leadership obviously 93 00:03:12,794 --> 00:03:14,715 plays into culture, but then but but but 94 00:03:14,715 --> 00:03:16,155 plays a little bit wider role, and then 95 00:03:16,155 --> 00:03:18,074 the organizational structure itself. And I think all 96 00:03:18,074 --> 00:03:19,796 three of those things, you know, I don't 97 00:03:19,796 --> 00:03:21,925 know if we wanna call them a a 98 00:03:21,925 --> 00:03:24,055 triangle or three pillars or however you wanna 99 00:03:24,055 --> 00:03:26,184 look at it, but I think those three 100 00:03:26,184 --> 00:03:28,580 pieces really, interrelate in in a way that 101 00:03:28,580 --> 00:03:30,709 produces both, you know, the outcomes of, like, 102 00:03:30,709 --> 00:03:32,839 are people happy? Do they wanna come to 103 00:03:32,839 --> 00:03:34,968 work? Or are they excited to to be 104 00:03:34,968 --> 00:03:37,235 here? And, also, how is this business gonna 105 00:03:37,235 --> 00:03:39,335 perform to to a Von's point. Right? Definitely. 106 00:03:39,715 --> 00:03:41,655 Isn't it funny how things are in threes? 107 00:03:42,034 --> 00:03:42,534 Quick 108 00:03:42,835 --> 00:03:43,735 peak quality, 109 00:03:45,074 --> 00:03:46,294 state, state, 110 00:03:48,675 --> 00:03:50,375 state surface in optimization 111 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:51,939 and, 112 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:53,780 you know, 113 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,180 the cap theorem, everything's in threes. 114 00:03:57,039 --> 00:03:59,439 That's it's like a universal thing. So, you 115 00:03:59,439 --> 00:04:01,519 know, if you found two, you've got to 116 00:04:01,519 --> 00:04:03,039 go find the third. Cause there's a third, 117 00:04:03,039 --> 00:04:04,894 stop it too. Yeah. Don't stop at 2. 118 00:04:04,894 --> 00:04:06,814 There's 3. And if you get the 4, 119 00:04:06,814 --> 00:04:07,794 it's too many. 120 00:04:10,894 --> 00:04:12,814 So yes. So when you talk about culture, 121 00:04:12,814 --> 00:04:14,174 what do you mean, Chris? Like, we're not 122 00:04:14,174 --> 00:04:15,314 talking about just 123 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:18,520 the problem of the people being toxic and 124 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:20,520 stuff like that. You're talking about something very 125 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,720 specific or more specific. I think so. Yeah. 126 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,100 DevOps and stuff like that. 127 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,399 Exactly. Right? And that's where this has come 128 00:04:27,399 --> 00:04:29,895 from for me is I've been you know, 129 00:04:29,895 --> 00:04:31,735 this term net DevOps gets thrown around a 130 00:04:31,735 --> 00:04:33,095 lot. And, obviously, you know, I've been focused 131 00:04:33,095 --> 00:04:35,335 on network automation more and more and more 132 00:04:35,335 --> 00:04:37,095 over the last, I would say, ten years. 133 00:04:37,095 --> 00:04:38,455 It probably goes back further than that. Right? 134 00:04:38,455 --> 00:04:39,895 The first networks I worked on, we built 135 00:04:39,895 --> 00:04:41,574 with software controls. We just didn't know any 136 00:04:41,574 --> 00:04:42,074 better. 137 00:04:42,694 --> 00:04:44,310 And and then, you know, more recently, it's 138 00:04:44,310 --> 00:04:46,329 it's it's gaining traction in in more places. 139 00:04:46,629 --> 00:04:48,410 Telcos are finally waking up to automation. 140 00:04:48,870 --> 00:04:49,529 You know, 141 00:04:50,069 --> 00:04:52,149 enterprises are waking up to it. But the 142 00:04:52,149 --> 00:04:53,529 the problems they're running into 143 00:04:53,990 --> 00:04:55,985 are are not technical. And and so as 144 00:04:55,985 --> 00:04:57,504 we start talking about this net DevOps and 145 00:04:57,504 --> 00:04:59,105 what does this mean, I I really started 146 00:04:59,105 --> 00:05:01,665 kinda diving into that and and looking back 147 00:05:01,665 --> 00:05:03,665 into DevOps and what does that mean. You 148 00:05:03,665 --> 00:05:05,105 know, having been a network engineer for the 149 00:05:05,105 --> 00:05:07,504 last twenty years, I I wasn't, you know, 150 00:05:07,504 --> 00:05:08,004 super 151 00:05:08,589 --> 00:05:11,389 tied into the DevOps revolution that's kinda happened 152 00:05:11,389 --> 00:05:12,990 over over those years. And so I'm going 153 00:05:12,990 --> 00:05:14,750 back and learning about it now and trying 154 00:05:14,750 --> 00:05:17,169 to understand how to apply that to NetOps. 155 00:05:17,870 --> 00:05:19,789 And and most of it, again, comes down 156 00:05:19,789 --> 00:05:21,089 to culture, organization, 157 00:05:21,709 --> 00:05:22,289 and leadership. 158 00:05:22,714 --> 00:05:24,955 The yes. You need the enabling technology, but 159 00:05:24,955 --> 00:05:26,714 that stuff exists. And so this culture is 160 00:05:26,714 --> 00:05:27,375 more like, 161 00:05:28,395 --> 00:05:30,574 there's a guy named, Ron Westrom 162 00:05:31,035 --> 00:05:33,915 who was a sociologist or psychologist from the 163 00:05:33,915 --> 00:05:36,074 eighties who who wrote about this. He wrote 164 00:05:36,074 --> 00:05:38,509 a paper or a book on these typologies 165 00:05:38,569 --> 00:05:40,410 of of culture, and he broke it down 166 00:05:40,410 --> 00:05:42,490 into three pieces, right, or three different types 167 00:05:42,490 --> 00:05:43,149 of culture. 168 00:05:44,730 --> 00:05:45,689 Well, one is, 169 00:05:47,370 --> 00:05:49,370 the power centric culture. I forget the actual 170 00:05:49,370 --> 00:05:50,430 name, but it's basically 171 00:05:50,730 --> 00:05:52,214 is the word. Psychological. That's 172 00:05:52,694 --> 00:05:53,274 right. Exactly. 173 00:05:53,894 --> 00:05:55,254 Which is that's the terrible one you're talking 174 00:05:55,254 --> 00:05:56,694 about, Russ. Right? Where Yeah. Where if you 175 00:05:56,694 --> 00:05:58,294 make a mistake, you're, you know, you're you're 176 00:05:58,294 --> 00:06:00,454 getting taken out back and and, you know, 177 00:06:00,454 --> 00:06:03,894 yelled at. And, it's all about power and 178 00:06:03,894 --> 00:06:05,430 and and structure and and and there's, you 179 00:06:05,430 --> 00:06:07,670 know, that kind of thing. Then there's another 180 00:06:07,670 --> 00:06:10,470 culture, which is the bureaucratic one, which becomes 181 00:06:10,470 --> 00:06:12,310 kinda rules based. Right? And it's not that 182 00:06:12,310 --> 00:06:13,750 bureaucracy is bad. You know, if you got 183 00:06:13,750 --> 00:06:15,750 a big enough organization, you've gotta have some. 184 00:06:15,990 --> 00:06:17,290 But a bureaucratic organization, 185 00:06:17,834 --> 00:06:19,915 they would you know, the the overall culture 186 00:06:19,915 --> 00:06:22,254 is we're gonna follow the rules 187 00:06:22,795 --> 00:06:25,355 at the expense of of anything else. Yeah. 188 00:06:25,355 --> 00:06:26,894 We don't even really care 189 00:06:27,274 --> 00:06:29,214 if it works. We just care 190 00:06:29,595 --> 00:06:32,129 that I followed the rules. And by the 191 00:06:32,129 --> 00:06:33,509 way, this is big in 192 00:06:34,129 --> 00:06:37,810 government and military organizations. If you've never been 193 00:06:37,810 --> 00:06:38,550 in the military 194 00:06:39,089 --> 00:06:40,229 or around government, 195 00:06:40,769 --> 00:06:42,689 the pointy end of the military tends to 196 00:06:42,689 --> 00:06:44,789 be much less rules based, which is counterintuitive. 197 00:06:45,774 --> 00:06:48,194 But the back end where people do 198 00:06:48,974 --> 00:06:49,474 quartermasters 199 00:06:49,854 --> 00:06:50,354 and 200 00:06:50,814 --> 00:06:53,314 deal with supply chains and everything else, 201 00:06:53,935 --> 00:06:55,074 it's extremely 202 00:06:55,535 --> 00:06:56,595 rules bureaucratic, 203 00:06:58,110 --> 00:07:00,750 rules oriented. So And and you're gonna see 204 00:07:00,750 --> 00:07:04,050 it a lot in your heavily regulated industries. 205 00:07:04,270 --> 00:07:06,670 Right? Which which are influenced by government. Right? 206 00:07:06,670 --> 00:07:09,230 If if if, in health care in The 207 00:07:09,230 --> 00:07:10,754 US with HIPAA compliance 208 00:07:11,454 --> 00:07:12,654 or in some of your, 209 00:07:13,134 --> 00:07:15,555 financial services, especially banking 210 00:07:16,334 --> 00:07:18,115 less so in venture capitalism 211 00:07:18,495 --> 00:07:18,995 or, 212 00:07:20,254 --> 00:07:22,560 those kinds of orgs, but yeah, anything that's 213 00:07:22,639 --> 00:07:25,699 heavily regulated, they're also gonna lean toward 214 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,560 being bureaucratic. And and there are reasons for 215 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,439 that. Yeah. But but then that if if 216 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:34,419 your culture embraces that structure, 217 00:07:34,959 --> 00:07:37,115 then it's gonna be hard for harder for 218 00:07:37,115 --> 00:07:37,935 you to innovate. 219 00:07:38,395 --> 00:07:39,754 Yeah. And I think there is a separation 220 00:07:39,754 --> 00:07:42,095 here between, you know, having bureaucracy 221 00:07:42,795 --> 00:07:45,995 and being in a bureaucratic culture. I think 222 00:07:45,995 --> 00:07:48,095 there's a good reason to separate those. Yeah. 223 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:48,779 Yeah. 224 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:51,399 And I would actually say before you sorry. 225 00:07:51,399 --> 00:07:53,160 Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I would actually 226 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,500 say is is that I think bureaucratic culture 227 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,360 is becoming more of the norm in a 228 00:07:58,360 --> 00:07:59,660 larger number of companies 229 00:08:00,279 --> 00:08:03,339 as I walk around. Right? Bureaucratic culture is 230 00:08:03,535 --> 00:08:04,274 I take 231 00:08:04,574 --> 00:08:05,074 my 232 00:08:05,535 --> 00:08:07,615 thing back to the store. I bought it 233 00:08:07,615 --> 00:08:09,535 to return it. And they say I can't 234 00:08:09,535 --> 00:08:11,454 do that because the computer won't let me. 235 00:08:11,454 --> 00:08:14,095 It's the rules. Right? It's the rule. It 236 00:08:14,095 --> 00:08:16,514 doesn't matter how the how the customer feels 237 00:08:16,610 --> 00:08:18,870 Doesn't matter whether you're using losing business. 238 00:08:19,170 --> 00:08:21,029 What matters is the rules are followed. 239 00:08:21,490 --> 00:08:23,490 And that I think is becoming more common. 240 00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:25,810 So sorry, Chris. Go ahead. Well, I'm just 241 00:08:25,810 --> 00:08:27,829 gonna add. There's a reason for that because 242 00:08:28,529 --> 00:08:30,949 when you get a really sufficiently large organization, 243 00:08:31,274 --> 00:08:32,014 50,000, 244 00:08:32,075 --> 00:08:33,115 a 100,000, 245 00:08:33,115 --> 00:08:34,315 a 150,000 246 00:08:34,315 --> 00:08:37,035 people, if you don't have some sort of 247 00:08:37,035 --> 00:08:38,335 bureaucracy and organizational 248 00:08:38,715 --> 00:08:39,215 structure, 249 00:08:39,914 --> 00:08:41,995 those people cannot be effective. Like, they need 250 00:08:41,995 --> 00:08:43,595 to know what their job is, where they 251 00:08:43,595 --> 00:08:45,754 fit in the org, how they interact with 252 00:08:45,754 --> 00:08:46,254 other 253 00:08:47,159 --> 00:08:49,639 groups, other teams, and you have to have 254 00:08:49,639 --> 00:08:51,720 some degree of bureaucracy. So I I think, 255 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:52,940 like, large organizations, 256 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,840 the gravity of their size is just gonna 257 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:57,980 drift that way. 258 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,460 And it takes serious leadership 259 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,875 to push against that and keep it. 260 00:09:04,815 --> 00:09:06,574 And then I'm not gonna steal, steal Chris. 261 00:09:06,574 --> 00:09:08,495 It's under Chris. What's the to to keep 262 00:09:08,495 --> 00:09:10,815 it what? What's the next Yeah. So the 263 00:09:10,815 --> 00:09:12,595 so the third type is is a generative 264 00:09:12,654 --> 00:09:15,534 culture, which really the definition there is it's 265 00:09:15,534 --> 00:09:17,695 results oriented. Right? So it is what we're 266 00:09:17,695 --> 00:09:19,910 doing effective Is the is the the the 267 00:09:19,910 --> 00:09:21,450 thesis that everyone works on? 268 00:09:22,389 --> 00:09:24,389 Right? And and if everyone's driving towards that, 269 00:09:24,389 --> 00:09:26,230 sure, you're you're gonna have process. You you 270 00:09:26,230 --> 00:09:28,009 have to. Right? And you're gonna have hierarchy. 271 00:09:28,149 --> 00:09:30,230 Again, in our large organization, you kinda have 272 00:09:30,230 --> 00:09:32,855 to. But the the the shift there is 273 00:09:32,855 --> 00:09:33,595 that culturally, 274 00:09:34,134 --> 00:09:36,534 we all know that everyone is out to 275 00:09:36,534 --> 00:09:38,075 provide the best outcome, 276 00:09:38,774 --> 00:09:40,294 which, you know, there there are some things. 277 00:09:40,294 --> 00:09:42,534 Right? This is you know, it sounds great. 278 00:09:42,534 --> 00:09:43,529 It's not easy. 279 00:09:43,930 --> 00:09:46,170 Everyone has to be aligned because in order 280 00:09:46,170 --> 00:09:47,690 to get good results, we have to know 281 00:09:47,690 --> 00:09:50,009 what the goals are Mhmm. Which requires this, 282 00:09:50,009 --> 00:09:52,170 you know, communication and this gets into psychological 283 00:09:52,170 --> 00:09:53,790 safety and some things like that. Yeah. 284 00:09:54,490 --> 00:09:55,310 Yeah. I think 285 00:09:55,850 --> 00:09:59,044 the bureaucracy tries to tries to force communication 286 00:09:59,105 --> 00:10:02,465 into certain patterns and certain interaction surfaces between 287 00:10:02,465 --> 00:10:03,285 different groups. 288 00:10:04,065 --> 00:10:04,565 And 289 00:10:05,345 --> 00:10:07,665 and communication outside of that just sort of 290 00:10:07,665 --> 00:10:10,065 doesn't compute. Like, in most of the large 291 00:10:10,065 --> 00:10:12,000 companies, all the large companies I've worked with, 292 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,399 there's this idea that if you wanna talk 293 00:10:14,399 --> 00:10:15,639 to another team, you have to kinda sort 294 00:10:15,639 --> 00:10:17,440 of go up through the hierarchy. And if 295 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,299 you don't do that, you're breaking the rules. 296 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,360 And, you know, I found that you need 297 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:22,960 to break through in those organizations, you need 298 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:24,480 to break the rules to get anything done 299 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,654 anyway. But it's but it's sort of, like, 300 00:10:26,735 --> 00:10:29,394 not okay to do that. Yeah. 301 00:10:29,935 --> 00:10:32,495 Yeah. Yeah. And and I would also say 302 00:10:32,495 --> 00:10:35,134 that part of the reason for this is 303 00:10:35,134 --> 00:10:38,575 also that people or bureaucracies like to measure 304 00:10:38,575 --> 00:10:40,675 things. They like to quantify things. 305 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,980 And you can only quantify things if the 306 00:10:43,980 --> 00:10:46,639 relationships and the work is totally exposed. 307 00:10:47,179 --> 00:10:50,000 So you can't have skunk works projects. 308 00:10:50,459 --> 00:10:52,639 You can't have people sitting in a corner 309 00:10:53,259 --> 00:10:55,279 in the in by the water cooler 310 00:10:55,754 --> 00:10:58,315 working on stuff. That stuff has to have 311 00:10:58,315 --> 00:11:01,054 a process around it. It's gotta be recorded, 312 00:11:01,514 --> 00:11:03,375 you know, all of that because you've gotta 313 00:11:03,674 --> 00:11:06,975 make sure that you have quantified and measured 314 00:11:07,035 --> 00:11:08,174 all of those things. 315 00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:10,769 Well, I would say you you actually 316 00:11:11,490 --> 00:11:14,309 you you create Skunk Works projects sometimes 317 00:11:14,610 --> 00:11:16,850 depending on who you have. Right? Like 318 00:11:17,649 --> 00:11:19,250 and I'm using Skunk Works in a very 319 00:11:19,250 --> 00:11:22,230 loose, like, you know, not not the original. 320 00:11:22,290 --> 00:11:22,950 But, like, 321 00:11:23,254 --> 00:11:25,995 sometimes if you get sufficiently talented, highly motivated 322 00:11:26,054 --> 00:11:27,894 people, they'll just ignore it. And so and 323 00:11:27,894 --> 00:11:29,815 and do their own thing and, you know, 324 00:11:29,815 --> 00:11:31,414 and you can argue whether that's good or 325 00:11:31,414 --> 00:11:32,855 bad, but I think it's a reality in 326 00:11:32,855 --> 00:11:35,654 bureaucratic organizations that, you know, if you have 327 00:11:35,654 --> 00:11:37,110 those personalities there, 328 00:11:37,829 --> 00:11:39,509 I think that's kind of fun, actually. I 329 00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:41,669 think that's a great way to get things 330 00:11:41,669 --> 00:11:43,209 done, but it's pretty disruptive. 331 00:11:43,829 --> 00:11:46,549 Well and and I'll also add the, 332 00:11:47,429 --> 00:11:49,750 the degree to which people are willing to 333 00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:51,370 do those informal 334 00:11:51,764 --> 00:11:53,225 skunkworks kind of projects 335 00:11:53,764 --> 00:11:56,085 is is gonna be directly related to the 336 00:11:56,085 --> 00:11:58,485 amount of risk that they feel. Right? So 337 00:11:58,725 --> 00:12:00,725 Yep. If if you feel like you have 338 00:12:00,725 --> 00:12:01,545 enough freedom 339 00:12:01,924 --> 00:12:03,779 to reach out to the guy across the 340 00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:06,340 cube wall or the the the gal on 341 00:12:06,340 --> 00:12:08,660 Slack and say, hey. I had this idea. 342 00:12:08,660 --> 00:12:10,360 Would you work on this thing with me? 343 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:15,320 They have to have enough psychological safety, enough, 344 00:12:16,445 --> 00:12:18,445 freedom to say, yeah. I'm gonna give a 345 00:12:18,445 --> 00:12:19,884 little bit of my time to this, and 346 00:12:19,884 --> 00:12:21,745 it's not gonna put my job at risk. 347 00:12:21,804 --> 00:12:23,804 Because I think, you know, depending on how 348 00:12:23,804 --> 00:12:25,884 much risk people feel or whether they, you 349 00:12:25,884 --> 00:12:28,205 know, feel like they're it's gonna impact their 350 00:12:28,205 --> 00:12:28,705 compensation 351 00:12:29,164 --> 00:12:31,504 or rating or something like that, 352 00:12:32,490 --> 00:12:34,090 will depend on how much, 353 00:12:34,889 --> 00:12:36,970 cooperation you get when you try to do 354 00:12:36,970 --> 00:12:37,470 those 355 00:12:38,009 --> 00:12:38,509 informal 356 00:12:38,889 --> 00:12:40,350 outside of the system 357 00:12:40,730 --> 00:12:43,129 kind of that that work, which is where 358 00:12:43,129 --> 00:12:44,509 all the magic happens, frankly. 359 00:12:45,065 --> 00:12:47,304 So how does this relate to DevOps? This 360 00:12:47,304 --> 00:12:49,004 is all great social theory. 361 00:12:49,384 --> 00:12:51,144 Sure. But how but how does this relate 362 00:12:51,144 --> 00:12:51,804 to DevOps? 363 00:12:52,424 --> 00:12:54,184 Well, so there's a couple pieces here that 364 00:12:54,184 --> 00:12:55,865 I think that that fit in. Right? And 365 00:12:55,865 --> 00:12:58,044 and one of them is, I think, 366 00:12:59,230 --> 00:13:01,550 another defining characteristic between these things here, and 367 00:13:01,550 --> 00:13:03,149 I think part of what Yvonne and Tom 368 00:13:03,149 --> 00:13:04,430 were leading to, right, this idea of, you 369 00:13:04,430 --> 00:13:06,509 know, that that risk and things, the inverse 370 00:13:06,509 --> 00:13:08,210 of that, I think, is is trust. 371 00:13:09,389 --> 00:13:11,710 Right? And so if you if you're able 372 00:13:11,710 --> 00:13:12,370 to trust 373 00:13:12,965 --> 00:13:14,804 people in other parts of the organization, whether 374 00:13:14,804 --> 00:13:17,044 it's, you know, laterally or or below or 375 00:13:17,044 --> 00:13:17,544 above, 376 00:13:18,004 --> 00:13:18,504 then 377 00:13:19,125 --> 00:13:21,285 that's a that's kinda how you start moving 378 00:13:21,285 --> 00:13:24,004 towards this more generative culture. Right? And and 379 00:13:24,004 --> 00:13:25,304 that leads to more collaboration. 380 00:13:25,764 --> 00:13:28,245 And the collaboration becomes really, really, really key, 381 00:13:28,245 --> 00:13:30,830 I think. And so what we've seen, in 382 00:13:30,830 --> 00:13:32,550 in the DevOps stuff, right, is that the 383 00:13:32,769 --> 00:13:34,769 a big part of what happened there 384 00:13:35,149 --> 00:13:37,230 was creating these, you know, if you look 385 00:13:37,230 --> 00:13:38,129 at team topologies, 386 00:13:38,590 --> 00:13:40,529 which is pretty famous looking at the organizational 387 00:13:40,590 --> 00:13:41,730 structure side of this, 388 00:13:42,190 --> 00:13:44,129 they talk about stream aligned teams. 389 00:13:44,954 --> 00:13:46,875 And this is again software development side of 390 00:13:46,875 --> 00:13:47,375 things. 391 00:13:48,315 --> 00:13:50,235 Other folks call them service teams. Right? But 392 00:13:50,235 --> 00:13:52,075 what you basically do is say, okay. Instead 393 00:13:52,075 --> 00:13:54,334 of being broken down by in functions, 394 00:13:54,634 --> 00:13:56,954 so you've got, you know, the front end 395 00:13:56,954 --> 00:13:58,315 people over here and the back end people 396 00:13:58,315 --> 00:14:00,210 over here and the database people over here. 397 00:14:00,450 --> 00:14:03,250 Instead, we say, okay. This team is gonna 398 00:14:03,250 --> 00:14:05,730 work on this problem and this problem is 399 00:14:05,730 --> 00:14:07,330 a is a subset of what the overall 400 00:14:07,330 --> 00:14:09,250 company is working on and they're gonna end 401 00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:10,629 own it end to end. 402 00:14:11,649 --> 00:14:13,250 And and the reason that this all comes 403 00:14:13,250 --> 00:14:15,009 back to culture is that that requires this 404 00:14:15,009 --> 00:14:16,894 collaboration and this trust where you've now you've 405 00:14:16,894 --> 00:14:19,054 got a database engineer and a front end 406 00:14:19,054 --> 00:14:20,574 engineer and a back end engineer on the 407 00:14:20,574 --> 00:14:21,615 same team, and they need to be able 408 00:14:21,615 --> 00:14:22,195 to collaborate, 409 00:14:22,815 --> 00:14:23,855 and they need to be able to work 410 00:14:23,855 --> 00:14:25,615 with other teams in in in structured ways 411 00:14:25,615 --> 00:14:27,695 and and trust that the the the platforms 412 00:14:27,695 --> 00:14:29,460 they're relying on are gonna be handled well 413 00:14:29,460 --> 00:14:30,360 and trust that, 414 00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:32,820 they're gonna be getting the feedback they need, 415 00:14:32,980 --> 00:14:35,220 and then increase this collaboration, which then leads 416 00:14:35,220 --> 00:14:37,620 to better results. So it it again, that's 417 00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:38,899 why I think they're tied together. Right? The 418 00:14:38,899 --> 00:14:40,500 leadership needs to enable this. The culture has 419 00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:41,860 to be enabled through the leadership, and then 420 00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:43,300 you need to actually put the team structure 421 00:14:43,300 --> 00:14:44,899 together. But a lot of this comes down 422 00:14:44,899 --> 00:14:45,434 to collaboration. 423 00:14:46,475 --> 00:14:49,914 So how does that relate to CICD, for 424 00:14:49,914 --> 00:14:50,414 instance? 425 00:14:50,875 --> 00:14:53,034 Mhmm. Do you think that I I now 426 00:14:53,034 --> 00:14:55,294 when I think of the this collaborative structure 427 00:14:55,355 --> 00:14:57,754 you're you're talking about, I think it actually 428 00:14:57,754 --> 00:14:58,254 improves 429 00:14:58,634 --> 00:14:59,134 CICD 430 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,000 because now you're doing CICD on a functional 431 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,480 level level or on a service route level, 432 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:06,500 however you wanna put it, as opposed 433 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:08,879 to, oh, I do CICD for all of 434 00:15:08,879 --> 00:15:10,960 the front end. I do CICD for all 435 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,960 the back end. No. You actually are doing 436 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:13,460 CICD 437 00:15:14,639 --> 00:15:15,495 for a product 438 00:15:16,294 --> 00:15:18,554 or a module that is then used. 439 00:15:19,014 --> 00:15:20,955 Maybe the customer doesn't see it, 440 00:15:21,495 --> 00:15:24,075 but it's still a unit. It's a thing. 441 00:15:25,254 --> 00:15:27,174 Well, absolutely. I think because part of this 442 00:15:27,174 --> 00:15:29,429 is when you're creating this cross functional team 443 00:15:29,429 --> 00:15:31,910 that's responsible for a set of services or 444 00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:33,830 a set of features, they now own it 445 00:15:33,830 --> 00:15:35,910 end to end. And and I think that, 446 00:15:35,910 --> 00:15:37,750 you know, maybe this isn't quite a stake 447 00:15:37,750 --> 00:15:38,950 in the ground, but that that's the only 448 00:15:38,950 --> 00:15:40,870 way to really have CICD is when you're, 449 00:15:40,870 --> 00:15:42,549 you know, when there's not handoffs in that 450 00:15:42,549 --> 00:15:44,605 process. Right? So So, some of the biggest 451 00:15:44,605 --> 00:15:46,945 challenges with CICD is if you've got, 452 00:15:47,644 --> 00:15:49,884 you know, somebody's doing part a and then 453 00:15:49,884 --> 00:15:51,485 some other team or some other person is 454 00:15:51,485 --> 00:15:53,485 doing part b and then there's an approval 455 00:15:53,485 --> 00:15:55,325 process that goes over to QA and then 456 00:15:55,325 --> 00:15:57,245 there's a security approval process that goes over 457 00:15:57,245 --> 00:15:58,144 to team c. 458 00:15:58,549 --> 00:15:59,049 Right? 459 00:15:59,509 --> 00:16:02,149 That that blows up CICD because you've got 460 00:16:02,149 --> 00:16:03,750 these handouts, you've got these checks, and and, 461 00:16:03,750 --> 00:16:05,449 sure, you can kinda cobble it together. 462 00:16:06,149 --> 00:16:08,470 But that collaborative approach of actually owning this 463 00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:10,490 end to end, I think is what enables 464 00:16:10,870 --> 00:16:12,789 what I would call true CICD where you're 465 00:16:12,789 --> 00:16:15,345 actually doing constant development, constant improvement because, 466 00:16:15,725 --> 00:16:17,884 again, there is this one collaborative team that's 467 00:16:17,884 --> 00:16:20,445 working on this full stream. Right? The whole 468 00:16:20,445 --> 00:16:22,764 flow from from start to finish of whatever 469 00:16:22,764 --> 00:16:25,024 this kind of chunk of the work is, 470 00:16:25,085 --> 00:16:26,684 and then they're trusting that the other chunks 471 00:16:26,684 --> 00:16:28,289 are gonna get done. And I think a 472 00:16:28,289 --> 00:16:29,589 way to, you know, 473 00:16:30,529 --> 00:16:33,110 you know, the the alternative there is is 474 00:16:33,169 --> 00:16:35,169 basically silos. Right? And we've talked about silos 475 00:16:35,169 --> 00:16:37,009 and and silo busting a lot in IT 476 00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:38,789 over the last, you know, ten, twenty years. 477 00:16:38,850 --> 00:16:40,049 And that's kind of you know, these two 478 00:16:40,049 --> 00:16:41,881 things are kind of opposite of each other. 479 00:16:41,881 --> 00:16:44,086 Right? So, there's this collaborative approach where you're 480 00:16:44,086 --> 00:16:46,291 actually kind of seeing something end to end. 481 00:16:46,291 --> 00:16:48,496 I think silos are kind of determined by 482 00:16:48,496 --> 00:16:50,701 dependencies. If if you're dependent on another team 483 00:16:50,701 --> 00:16:52,906 that that's kind of how you know you're 484 00:16:52,906 --> 00:16:55,387 in a silo. And if if you if 485 00:16:55,387 --> 00:16:57,450 you've got all the dependencies inside the teams 486 00:16:57,450 --> 00:16:59,289 so you can get your work done, then 487 00:16:59,289 --> 00:17:01,129 you don't have silos. Right? And and that 488 00:17:01,129 --> 00:17:02,909 comes back to, again, the CICD, I think, 489 00:17:03,289 --> 00:17:05,450 functions better when there's not those silos, when 490 00:17:05,450 --> 00:17:06,589 there's not those handoffs. 491 00:17:06,890 --> 00:17:08,890 And, again, I think that's directly applicable to 492 00:17:08,890 --> 00:17:10,951 to networking as well. It's a little different, 493 00:17:11,219 --> 00:17:13,628 but not that much different, as far as 494 00:17:13,628 --> 00:17:15,769 being able to own piece of the the 495 00:17:15,769 --> 00:17:17,911 the stream. I think the d in CICD 496 00:17:17,911 --> 00:17:20,053 is really important to understand because there are 497 00:17:20,053 --> 00:17:22,195 two ways to see this, continuous delivery or 498 00:17:22,195 --> 00:17:24,604 continuous deployment. And you can be operating just 499 00:17:24,604 --> 00:17:26,259 because you're using c I c d doesn't 500 00:17:26,259 --> 00:17:27,559 mean you're not in a silo 501 00:17:28,660 --> 00:17:29,720 continuous delivery 502 00:17:30,019 --> 00:17:32,660 is absolutely for organizations that are siloed like 503 00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:34,579 I built my thing here's my artifact it 504 00:17:34,579 --> 00:17:36,980 was delivered to you now somebody else go 505 00:17:36,980 --> 00:17:39,059 deploy it and make it into a useful 506 00:17:39,059 --> 00:17:39,559 machine 507 00:17:40,180 --> 00:17:40,680 whereas 508 00:17:41,214 --> 00:17:43,474 CICD as in deployment means 509 00:17:43,855 --> 00:17:46,335 you you develop it, you work, you test, 510 00:17:46,335 --> 00:17:48,095 and you and you and it ends up 511 00:17:48,095 --> 00:17:49,934 in production, not it just ends up on 512 00:17:49,934 --> 00:17:51,694 somebody across the wall. I think I think 513 00:17:51,694 --> 00:17:53,615 there's a lot of places doing CICD where 514 00:17:53,615 --> 00:17:55,875 it's where it's actually delivery and not deployment. 515 00:17:56,174 --> 00:17:57,819 And I think what we're talking about is 516 00:17:57,819 --> 00:17:59,759 deployment. It's about making the whole thing, 517 00:18:00,139 --> 00:18:01,919 you know, from end to end collaborating, 518 00:18:02,299 --> 00:18:04,220 until we get a useful business machine out 519 00:18:04,220 --> 00:18:04,880 of it. 520 00:18:07,980 --> 00:18:09,359 Makes no sense. Yeah. 521 00:18:10,015 --> 00:18:11,855 Yeah. That actually makes sense to me too, 522 00:18:11,855 --> 00:18:12,755 that there is 523 00:18:13,454 --> 00:18:16,335 the CD being deployment means that you're actually 524 00:18:16,335 --> 00:18:17,954 building something that's useful 525 00:18:18,974 --> 00:18:21,714 end to end rather than this little component. 526 00:18:22,460 --> 00:18:24,940 And it's okay in some cases to specialize 527 00:18:24,940 --> 00:18:27,980 and deliver a little component. Right? Like, people 528 00:18:27,980 --> 00:18:30,460 who make wrenches, they make wrenches, and they're 529 00:18:30,460 --> 00:18:32,000 excellent at making wrenches. 530 00:18:32,299 --> 00:18:34,380 And they design new ones, and they innovate 531 00:18:34,380 --> 00:18:35,279 in that field, 532 00:18:35,674 --> 00:18:37,054 but they don't make cars. 533 00:18:38,154 --> 00:18:40,154 And people who make cars with the wrenches 534 00:18:40,154 --> 00:18:41,454 make cars with the wrenches. 535 00:18:41,914 --> 00:18:44,315 And so that's that's a siloing that's rational 536 00:18:44,315 --> 00:18:45,054 and logical. 537 00:18:45,595 --> 00:18:47,595 Each problem is large enough that it needs 538 00:18:47,595 --> 00:18:48,734 to be its own thing. 539 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:50,679 Well, I don't know if that makes it 540 00:18:50,679 --> 00:18:52,279 a silo though, Russ. I I I think 541 00:18:52,279 --> 00:18:54,839 there's I think that absolutely specialization is is 542 00:18:54,839 --> 00:18:56,119 still part of the picture and it has 543 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:56,779 to be. 544 00:18:57,399 --> 00:18:58,220 I I think, 545 00:18:58,599 --> 00:19:00,359 for instance so so another kind of, you 546 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:01,980 know, one of the things I I recently 547 00:19:02,039 --> 00:19:02,539 reread, 548 00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:05,154 Henry Ford's biography, biography, and and I was 549 00:19:05,154 --> 00:19:06,434 kinda struck because we talked about him as 550 00:19:06,434 --> 00:19:07,555 being, like, you know, the father of the 551 00:19:07,555 --> 00:19:09,634 assembly line. But a big part of what 552 00:19:09,634 --> 00:19:12,455 he did comes back to, again, organizational structure, 553 00:19:12,674 --> 00:19:14,035 and and part of what he did is 554 00:19:14,035 --> 00:19:15,795 he he took the the, you know, the 555 00:19:15,795 --> 00:19:16,775 sharpest folks 556 00:19:17,579 --> 00:19:19,500 and and moved them in away from the 557 00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:21,359 assembly line to actually build tools. 558 00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:23,500 And and and they were building tools that 559 00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:25,500 enabled the folks on the assembly line to 560 00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:27,579 work faster and better. And and so there 561 00:19:27,579 --> 00:19:29,515 is specialization there, but I don't know that 562 00:19:29,515 --> 00:19:31,275 that's actually a silo because there's not quite 563 00:19:31,275 --> 00:19:34,154 a dependency there. There's one team enabling another 564 00:19:34,154 --> 00:19:35,914 team. There's not, you know, there there's no 565 00:19:35,914 --> 00:19:37,275 waiting on that team. And so so I 566 00:19:37,275 --> 00:19:38,794 think without the dependency, you don't quite have 567 00:19:38,794 --> 00:19:40,654 a silo, but you definitely can have specialization 568 00:19:41,115 --> 00:19:43,694 without without silos and without dependencies, I think. 569 00:19:44,659 --> 00:19:46,659 That's interesting. What do you think, Tom? Yvonne? 570 00:19:46,659 --> 00:19:48,500 Yeah. Yvonne, you've not been talking either. Go 571 00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:49,240 ahead, Tom. 572 00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:51,000 Yeah. Go ahead, Tom. 573 00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:53,779 I I like I like the analogy with 574 00:19:53,779 --> 00:19:54,019 the, 575 00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:56,599 with the ranch and the and the car 576 00:19:56,659 --> 00:19:58,339 because they're both critical. You have to have 577 00:19:58,339 --> 00:19:59,859 both of them. I I that makes sense 578 00:19:59,859 --> 00:20:02,475 to me. I think the, there's not that 579 00:20:02,475 --> 00:20:04,475 there's a dependency in the in the fact 580 00:20:04,475 --> 00:20:05,835 that you have to have the tool in 581 00:20:05,835 --> 00:20:07,835 order to work on the car. But but 582 00:20:07,835 --> 00:20:08,575 it's not 583 00:20:09,035 --> 00:20:09,535 they're, 584 00:20:10,075 --> 00:20:12,235 loosely coupled. You know, you can you can 585 00:20:12,235 --> 00:20:13,434 do whether you can you can get a 586 00:20:13,434 --> 00:20:15,355 wrench for somebody else. You could, you know, 587 00:20:15,355 --> 00:20:16,953 use a different type of tool if you 588 00:20:16,953 --> 00:20:18,886 needed to and so I think that brings 589 00:20:18,886 --> 00:20:20,819 another thing in which is tight versus loose 590 00:20:20,819 --> 00:20:22,752 coupling and systems and where do they need 591 00:20:22,752 --> 00:20:24,685 to be tightly coupled and where do they 592 00:20:24,685 --> 00:20:26,618 need to be loosely coupled and every place 593 00:20:26,618 --> 00:20:28,552 they're tightly coupled we have to be very 594 00:20:28,552 --> 00:20:30,485 careful we have to collaborate we have to 595 00:20:30,485 --> 00:20:31,934 be very close to each other 596 00:20:33,775 --> 00:20:36,195 And, you know, that's I I I think 597 00:20:36,335 --> 00:20:37,375 I think the ranch, 598 00:20:37,695 --> 00:20:38,914 analogy is pretty great. 599 00:20:40,414 --> 00:20:42,174 Well, and I was thinking about, you know, 600 00:20:42,174 --> 00:20:44,815 how are how are we thinking about, like, 601 00:20:44,815 --> 00:20:47,369 what is a silo? Because it's is it 602 00:20:47,450 --> 00:20:49,450 it and it's it's not just a group 603 00:20:49,450 --> 00:20:51,450 with a function. It's a group with a 604 00:20:51,450 --> 00:20:51,950 function 605 00:20:52,410 --> 00:20:53,390 that operates 606 00:20:53,690 --> 00:20:54,509 too independently 607 00:20:54,809 --> 00:20:56,650 from the rest of the system, I think. 608 00:20:56,650 --> 00:20:58,809 And so, you know, we we've been talking 609 00:20:58,809 --> 00:21:00,490 about this, but it but it continues to 610 00:21:00,490 --> 00:21:00,703 all go back to communication, collaboration. Do we 611 00:21:00,703 --> 00:21:01,390 have enough trust, 612 00:21:02,625 --> 00:21:03,125 communication, 613 00:21:03,585 --> 00:21:04,085 collaboration? 614 00:21:04,945 --> 00:21:06,565 Do we have enough trust 615 00:21:07,345 --> 00:21:09,904 to go to another part of the system 616 00:21:09,904 --> 00:21:12,144 and say, hey. Like, we found this problem 617 00:21:12,144 --> 00:21:13,664 or this thing isn't working as well as 618 00:21:13,664 --> 00:21:14,724 we think it 619 00:21:15,025 --> 00:21:16,704 should be. Or we'd like to try something 620 00:21:16,704 --> 00:21:17,579 new or we have 621 00:21:18,539 --> 00:21:19,039 this 622 00:21:19,339 --> 00:21:21,200 idea. We can do this part of it, 623 00:21:21,259 --> 00:21:21,686 but we need your help to do that 624 00:21:21,686 --> 00:21:23,659 part of it. And does everybody across that 625 00:21:23,659 --> 00:21:24,159 organization 626 00:21:25,179 --> 00:21:27,819 have have have the freedom and the trust 627 00:21:27,819 --> 00:21:28,700 and the ability to to jump in there 628 00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:29,579 and try to fix it together? Because most 629 00:21:29,579 --> 00:21:30,799 of our systems are so complex, very 630 00:21:31,259 --> 00:21:33,184 rarely, try to fix it together because most 631 00:21:33,184 --> 00:21:34,644 of our systems are so complex. 632 00:21:35,105 --> 00:21:37,744 Very rarely can one team, one group, one 633 00:21:37,744 --> 00:21:38,244 specialization 634 00:21:39,184 --> 00:21:39,684 impact 635 00:21:40,625 --> 00:21:44,109 broad change. And so that's, you know, that's 636 00:21:44,109 --> 00:21:47,149 where the you you gotta have organizational groups. 637 00:21:47,149 --> 00:21:49,490 You gotta break down people into teams 638 00:21:49,869 --> 00:21:51,710 so that they can be effective. It the 639 00:21:51,710 --> 00:21:53,230 the question of whether or not it's a 640 00:21:53,230 --> 00:21:55,630 silo is whether or not they they, frankly, 641 00:21:55,630 --> 00:21:56,769 play well with others. 642 00:21:57,390 --> 00:21:58,659 Yeah. So the way I've been looking at 643 00:21:58,659 --> 00:22:00,434 it, and and may be my own harebrained 644 00:22:00,494 --> 00:22:02,255 idea, but I've been looking at, you know, 645 00:22:02,255 --> 00:22:04,335 at least to me, the the problematic definition 646 00:22:04,335 --> 00:22:06,815 of silos. Right? So problematic silos are defined 647 00:22:06,815 --> 00:22:08,414 by dependency. That's I've said this a couple 648 00:22:08,414 --> 00:22:10,414 times, but, you know and then there's there's 649 00:22:10,414 --> 00:22:12,380 a bunch of work around dependencies as well. 650 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:13,480 There was, 651 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,759 researchers Malone and Krauston, who created this coordination 652 00:22:16,759 --> 00:22:18,839 theory, and they talked about these different levels 653 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:21,480 of of coordination of of dependency. Right? So 654 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:21,980 flow 655 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:24,920 is a flow dependency is a sequential. Right? 656 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,184 So I have to do a before I 657 00:22:26,184 --> 00:22:27,964 can do b before I can do c. 658 00:22:28,025 --> 00:22:29,865 And and if you've got different teams doing 659 00:22:29,865 --> 00:22:31,945 those, then you can potentially have these bottlenecks 660 00:22:31,945 --> 00:22:33,625 where where if one team's running slower, the 661 00:22:33,625 --> 00:22:34,924 whole thing falls apart. Right? 662 00:22:35,785 --> 00:22:37,644 There's also what they called sharing, 663 00:22:38,265 --> 00:22:41,440 which is multiple teams or people need the 664 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,359 same resource. And so, again, you can you 665 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:44,799 can see can you can have contention there 666 00:22:44,799 --> 00:22:46,880 and, again, create dependencies where, you know, maybe 667 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,000 we have to, you know, we can't all 668 00:22:48,159 --> 00:22:49,519 maybe we actually can't all use it at 669 00:22:49,519 --> 00:22:51,119 once or or maybe, you know, there's, 670 00:22:51,919 --> 00:22:53,839 scaling challenges there and things like that. And 671 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:54,339 then 672 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:55,815 there's another dependency, which 673 00:22:57,894 --> 00:22:58,037 which is fit, which means, okay, there's multiple 674 00:22:58,037 --> 00:23:00,075 teams building different parts of the same thing. 675 00:23:00,134 --> 00:23:01,335 And when we're done, they all have to 676 00:23:01,335 --> 00:23:03,974 fit together. And so there's dependencies because if 677 00:23:03,974 --> 00:23:05,734 I build my thing wrong, it's not gonna 678 00:23:05,734 --> 00:23:07,335 fit with Yvonne's thing or or Tom's thing 679 00:23:07,335 --> 00:23:08,954 might not be able to plug in. Right? 680 00:23:09,414 --> 00:23:10,534 Which I which I think is interesting. And 681 00:23:10,534 --> 00:23:12,490 so so I see those those dependencies. If 682 00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:14,089 you have dependencies, then maybe you have a 683 00:23:14,089 --> 00:23:15,450 silo. And I think that's where if you're 684 00:23:15,450 --> 00:23:16,890 looking at kind of this bigger picture of 685 00:23:16,890 --> 00:23:19,210 organizational design, that's how you might spot those 686 00:23:19,210 --> 00:23:20,509 things and start to 687 00:23:20,970 --> 00:23:21,950 open up coordination, 688 00:23:22,329 --> 00:23:23,869 and and cooperation a little better. 689 00:23:24,375 --> 00:23:25,894 There By by by finding those dependencies and 690 00:23:25,894 --> 00:23:28,535 and smashing them, essentially. Yeah. Everything you've described 691 00:23:28,535 --> 00:23:29,515 as as a dependency 692 00:23:30,055 --> 00:23:32,875 could be to be described in the programming 693 00:23:32,934 --> 00:23:34,154 world as an API. 694 00:23:35,494 --> 00:23:37,994 And in the networking world as an interaction 695 00:23:38,134 --> 00:23:38,634 surface. 696 00:23:39,769 --> 00:23:42,829 Right? These are all things that things interact 697 00:23:42,889 --> 00:23:43,389 here, 698 00:23:43,690 --> 00:23:45,369 and they have to interact in a certain 699 00:23:45,369 --> 00:23:47,130 way. And by the way, that's part of 700 00:23:47,130 --> 00:23:49,149 the reason for open standards or was, 701 00:23:49,609 --> 00:23:52,009 was that open standards are supposed to allow 702 00:23:52,009 --> 00:23:55,154 you to have well known interaction surfaces or 703 00:23:55,154 --> 00:23:55,654 dependencies 704 00:23:56,355 --> 00:23:57,575 that everyone knows, 705 00:23:58,515 --> 00:24:00,275 and they all work the same. So people 706 00:24:00,275 --> 00:24:01,255 can build OSPF, 707 00:24:01,714 --> 00:24:03,555 BGP on their own, they can build forwarding 708 00:24:03,555 --> 00:24:05,714 planes, whatever, it doesn't matter. You build all 709 00:24:05,714 --> 00:24:07,255 this stuff and it should work together 710 00:24:07,650 --> 00:24:08,150 because 711 00:24:08,529 --> 00:24:10,369 on the wire, the wire that connects the 712 00:24:10,369 --> 00:24:10,869 devices, 713 00:24:11,250 --> 00:24:12,869 the format on the wire 714 00:24:13,730 --> 00:24:14,789 is the same 715 00:24:15,170 --> 00:24:15,910 for everybody. 716 00:24:17,570 --> 00:24:21,164 So here's here's my question. Is Conway's Law 717 00:24:21,164 --> 00:24:21,664 inevitable? 718 00:24:22,204 --> 00:24:24,684 Is it possible to build an organization where 719 00:24:24,684 --> 00:24:27,105 you have high trust and high communication 720 00:24:27,644 --> 00:24:29,664 but still have the machine be 721 00:24:30,045 --> 00:24:33,490 modular and coupled in the right way, though, 722 00:24:33,490 --> 00:24:35,910 so that it doesn't mirror the underlying organization? 723 00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:37,829 Do you guys think that that's possible? 724 00:24:38,930 --> 00:24:41,190 It sure looks like Conway's Law holds, 725 00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:44,394 even here. Right? And and I think even 726 00:24:44,394 --> 00:24:47,194 with coordination and cooperation, you've still gotta be 727 00:24:47,194 --> 00:24:48,654 careful of those team boundaries. 728 00:24:49,434 --> 00:24:51,134 I I think for sure. I I think 729 00:24:51,194 --> 00:24:53,035 I think it it it's natural. Right? If 730 00:24:53,035 --> 00:24:54,154 you if you put a group of people 731 00:24:54,154 --> 00:24:55,674 together, they're gonna work on a thing that 732 00:24:55,674 --> 00:24:57,970 has boundaries of of their knowledge and their 733 00:24:57,970 --> 00:24:59,650 ability. And and so you're just going to 734 00:24:59,650 --> 00:25:01,329 see those those boundaries in the system that 735 00:25:01,329 --> 00:25:02,529 they build. I I I don't know how 736 00:25:02,529 --> 00:25:03,890 you get around that at at all. I 737 00:25:03,890 --> 00:25:05,170 don't think this solves that. I think this 738 00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:06,549 needs to take that into account. 739 00:25:06,930 --> 00:25:08,529 And every well, I was thinking everything we've 740 00:25:08,529 --> 00:25:09,545 talked about today 741 00:25:10,565 --> 00:25:13,445 is really operating at the assumption that Conway's 742 00:25:13,445 --> 00:25:16,244 law is true. Right? That that your work 743 00:25:16,244 --> 00:25:18,404 product, the thing that you build, is going 744 00:25:18,404 --> 00:25:20,965 to mirror your communication structures, whether it's, you 745 00:25:20,965 --> 00:25:23,200 know, your org chart or whatever. And the 746 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,599 the way I've summarized this very crassly, and 747 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:27,039 I I don't think it's original to me, 748 00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:29,359 but, like, you ship your org chart. Right? 749 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:30,500 Like, what you ship 750 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,779 looks like your organizational and communication structures. 751 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,945 And and to me, it's it's almost a 752 00:25:36,945 --> 00:25:37,605 a truism. 753 00:25:37,984 --> 00:25:40,724 Right? It's like just this is how humans 754 00:25:40,785 --> 00:25:42,325 operate and how they build things. 755 00:25:42,785 --> 00:25:46,144 And part of structuring an organization is figuring 756 00:25:46,144 --> 00:25:47,845 out what do we wanna build and then 757 00:25:47,904 --> 00:25:50,369 how do we organize our people around 758 00:25:50,829 --> 00:25:52,769 how to build it. And that's the difference 759 00:25:52,829 --> 00:25:53,329 between 760 00:25:54,349 --> 00:25:56,829 building and being a people leader and being 761 00:25:56,829 --> 00:25:59,569 a technical leader. But interestingly enough, 762 00:26:00,029 --> 00:26:02,210 like, those even those two disciplines 763 00:26:02,829 --> 00:26:03,890 have to work together 764 00:26:04,934 --> 00:26:06,774 Because if they don't, you'll you'll end up 765 00:26:06,774 --> 00:26:09,255 designing an organization that doesn't support your tech 766 00:26:09,335 --> 00:26:10,315 technical needs. 767 00:26:11,095 --> 00:26:12,974 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you'll do. Or 768 00:26:12,974 --> 00:26:15,575 a technical organization that doesn't support your people 769 00:26:15,575 --> 00:26:16,075 needs, 770 00:26:16,375 --> 00:26:18,615 which which actually happens. It happens a lot 771 00:26:18,615 --> 00:26:19,274 as well. 772 00:26:19,589 --> 00:26:21,509 Now I also wonder if there's a scale 773 00:26:21,509 --> 00:26:23,049 element here where 774 00:26:23,429 --> 00:26:24,329 smaller organizations 775 00:26:25,429 --> 00:26:27,049 are just better able 776 00:26:27,509 --> 00:26:29,829 to be flexible in what they ship, like 777 00:26:29,829 --> 00:26:31,289 what you're talking about, Tom. 778 00:26:31,605 --> 00:26:34,085 Right? Like a smaller organization, can it turn 779 00:26:34,085 --> 00:26:34,585 faster 780 00:26:35,045 --> 00:26:35,865 and and 781 00:26:36,164 --> 00:26:38,345 decouple the product from the organizational 782 00:26:38,964 --> 00:26:39,464 structure 783 00:26:40,325 --> 00:26:42,025 better just because it's smaller? 784 00:26:42,804 --> 00:26:44,664 Or is that true all around? 785 00:26:45,179 --> 00:26:47,339 Well, I I think it's true, but I 786 00:26:47,339 --> 00:26:49,019 think it's true because of exactly what we've 787 00:26:49,019 --> 00:26:51,119 been talking about. Right? Like, so, 788 00:26:52,460 --> 00:26:55,659 studies have been done. Basically, one human can 789 00:26:55,659 --> 00:26:57,759 have about a 150 790 00:26:58,859 --> 00:27:00,079 human connections, 791 00:27:00,384 --> 00:27:02,384 right, inside of an organization. So once your 792 00:27:02,384 --> 00:27:04,625 organization gets, I mean, if it's smaller than 793 00:27:04,625 --> 00:27:07,365 a couple 100 people, like everybody knows everybody. 794 00:27:07,664 --> 00:27:09,444 So there is no 795 00:27:10,144 --> 00:27:11,765 real communication hierarchy. 796 00:27:12,224 --> 00:27:12,964 You know 797 00:27:13,265 --> 00:27:14,005 that Joe 798 00:27:14,809 --> 00:27:17,210 over in marketing does x y z, and 799 00:27:17,210 --> 00:27:19,769 you can message Joe or walk up to 800 00:27:19,769 --> 00:27:21,529 Joe and say, hey, this is what I 801 00:27:21,529 --> 00:27:23,230 was thinking. What do you wanna do? 802 00:27:23,529 --> 00:27:25,609 So it it's it's still based on the 803 00:27:25,609 --> 00:27:28,505 communication structures. It's just in your smaller organizations, 804 00:27:28,884 --> 00:27:30,585 there are fewer interaction services. 805 00:27:31,045 --> 00:27:32,424 And that organizational 806 00:27:33,285 --> 00:27:35,865 structure hierarchy doesn't get in the way because 807 00:27:36,884 --> 00:27:39,045 people can scale to that size. But then 808 00:27:39,045 --> 00:27:41,440 once you get bigger, like, we humans can't 809 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,740 scale beyond a 150, 200 human connections. 810 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,519 Yeah. So I would The Dunbar's number, 811 00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:49,440 stuff. Right? So Dunbar did did work on 812 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:50,960 this, and then it goes back to, like, 813 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,039 AWS's famous, like, two pizza rule and things 814 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:54,559 like that where, you know, the team needs 815 00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:56,974 to be, you know, probably less than 10 816 00:27:56,974 --> 00:27:59,054 people. You can have squads of teams, and 817 00:27:59,054 --> 00:28:00,575 and this is how you kinda chunk and 818 00:28:00,575 --> 00:28:01,634 build these things out. 819 00:28:02,255 --> 00:28:05,075 But definitely easier at smaller scales. Absolutely. Yeah. 820 00:28:06,335 --> 00:28:08,174 I was I was just thinking, this is 821 00:28:08,174 --> 00:28:10,440 sort of the nerdy interpretation, but we figured 822 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,679 out how to build IGPs without full mesh 823 00:28:12,679 --> 00:28:15,159 of connectivity. Right? What's the human equivalent of 824 00:28:15,159 --> 00:28:15,819 the OSPFDR? 825 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:17,880 And Yeah. We still get we still get 826 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,679 enough information around to move packets. So I 827 00:28:20,679 --> 00:28:21,659 I don't know. That's 828 00:28:22,054 --> 00:28:24,615 I I'm not sure how well, OSPF translates 829 00:28:24,615 --> 00:28:26,535 into human domains, but but, you know, it 830 00:28:26,535 --> 00:28:28,454 doesn't have to be full mesh. Right? Yeah. 831 00:28:28,454 --> 00:28:30,775 When you think about, like, route summarization. Right? 832 00:28:30,775 --> 00:28:33,494 That's a lot of what your communication structures 833 00:28:33,494 --> 00:28:34,441 in your organization are. How do I take 834 00:28:34,441 --> 00:28:35,035 this very complex detailed information, summarize it, and 835 00:28:35,174 --> 00:28:35,674 then 836 00:28:42,580 --> 00:28:43,400 information they need, 837 00:28:43,859 --> 00:28:45,960 but not overwhelm them with so much information 838 00:28:46,019 --> 00:28:47,859 that they can't function. I mean, that's that's 839 00:28:47,859 --> 00:28:50,259 exactly what route summarization is too. Right? And 840 00:28:50,259 --> 00:28:51,570 not and not and and 841 00:28:52,204 --> 00:28:54,845 understand the optimizations that you're stripping out when 842 00:28:54,845 --> 00:28:56,765 you do it because you do strip out 843 00:28:56,765 --> 00:28:57,265 optimization. 844 00:28:58,045 --> 00:29:00,144 So let's go back to to to NetOps, 845 00:29:00,285 --> 00:29:01,585 though. How 846 00:29:02,605 --> 00:29:04,445 how do you think this all of this 847 00:29:04,445 --> 00:29:07,180 relates to NetOps? Is this mostly a matter 848 00:29:07,180 --> 00:29:07,680 of 849 00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:10,640 organizing network operations teams, 850 00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:14,779 NREs, network of network reliability engineers, whatever you 851 00:29:14,779 --> 00:29:16,640 wanna however you wanna do it, 852 00:29:17,340 --> 00:29:20,240 in a different way? Like, should there be, 853 00:29:21,154 --> 00:29:23,634 like, a lot of companies separate architecture from 854 00:29:23,634 --> 00:29:24,134 design, 855 00:29:24,755 --> 00:29:25,815 from troubleshooting, 856 00:29:26,835 --> 00:29:27,335 from 857 00:29:27,794 --> 00:29:28,294 security? 858 00:29:29,154 --> 00:29:31,554 Like, is it better to rethink that and 859 00:29:31,554 --> 00:29:32,054 say, 860 00:29:32,355 --> 00:29:34,694 no. We should really have a team 861 00:29:34,994 --> 00:29:36,299 that does the network 862 00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:39,740 core, and that's what they do. And to 863 00:29:39,740 --> 00:29:41,660 the rest of everybody else who connects to 864 00:29:41,660 --> 00:29:42,320 the core, 865 00:29:42,700 --> 00:29:44,400 that is an opaque unit 866 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:47,039 managed by that team, 867 00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:48,799 all of it. 868 00:29:49,660 --> 00:29:51,360 I mean, is there, like, an organizational 869 00:29:51,934 --> 00:29:53,214 In short, yes. I mean, I I think 870 00:29:53,214 --> 00:29:54,734 I think yes. I think going down that 871 00:29:54,734 --> 00:29:56,494 path. Right? I think if we if we 872 00:29:56,494 --> 00:29:57,855 back up a little bit and we look 873 00:29:57,855 --> 00:29:58,755 at the network 874 00:29:59,214 --> 00:29:59,954 and and 875 00:30:00,255 --> 00:30:01,714 operating the network itself 876 00:30:02,095 --> 00:30:04,734 more as a software project and and we 877 00:30:04,734 --> 00:30:06,595 approach it with these kind of DevOps principles, 878 00:30:06,599 --> 00:30:07,880 I think that's exactly right, Russ. I I 879 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:09,039 think that is how it needs to work. 880 00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:11,740 I think there are maybe core network functions 881 00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:14,119 that become kind of a platform, you know, 882 00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:15,720 in in the software speak to the rest 883 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:16,460 of the organization 884 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:18,615 where that, you know, that that's being operated 885 00:30:18,615 --> 00:30:20,934 and it's being delivered as a service to 886 00:30:20,934 --> 00:30:21,835 the rest of the organization 887 00:30:22,214 --> 00:30:24,054 and so then no one needs to know 888 00:30:24,054 --> 00:30:25,575 how that works and and to some degree 889 00:30:25,575 --> 00:30:26,615 we do this. I just don't think we 890 00:30:26,615 --> 00:30:28,954 do it very consciously and well. Right? 891 00:30:29,894 --> 00:30:31,654 You know, there's there's some folks who talk 892 00:30:31,654 --> 00:30:33,509 about going back to the earlier piece, right, 893 00:30:33,509 --> 00:30:34,009 that, 894 00:30:34,470 --> 00:30:36,630 especially in software architecture, right, looking at Conway's 895 00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:38,070 Law and some of the things that Yvonne 896 00:30:38,070 --> 00:30:39,049 and Tom were saying, 897 00:30:39,670 --> 00:30:41,029 there's a lot of people who will tell 898 00:30:41,029 --> 00:30:42,890 you that, you know, a software architect 899 00:30:43,269 --> 00:30:44,870 actually needs to have the skills of a 900 00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:46,845 people manager because you actually have to design 901 00:30:46,845 --> 00:30:48,924 the organization to get the software outcomes you 902 00:30:48,924 --> 00:30:49,424 want. 903 00:30:50,845 --> 00:30:52,144 Another way to look at architecture 904 00:30:52,605 --> 00:30:54,445 is as the smartest folks who have the 905 00:30:54,445 --> 00:30:55,105 best practices 906 00:30:55,404 --> 00:30:58,045 and maybe instead of designing things and and 907 00:30:58,045 --> 00:31:00,125 sending designs down to other teams to implement 908 00:31:00,125 --> 00:31:02,230 them, maybe the architecture team should be reimagined 909 00:31:02,529 --> 00:31:05,029 as an enabling team that pops in 910 00:31:05,409 --> 00:31:07,809 and provides expertise where it's needed, when it's 911 00:31:07,809 --> 00:31:10,470 needed so that these more stream aligned teams, 912 00:31:10,529 --> 00:31:12,389 maybe maybe there's a team that handles, 913 00:31:13,255 --> 00:31:14,795 service provisioning for 914 00:31:15,174 --> 00:31:16,694 HR. I don't know. Right? Like, how how 915 00:31:16,694 --> 00:31:17,894 do you chunk this down into a team 916 00:31:17,894 --> 00:31:19,255 that can be a collaborative team that can 917 00:31:19,255 --> 00:31:20,694 see something end to end, and then you 918 00:31:20,694 --> 00:31:22,054 have the architecture team that's more of an 919 00:31:22,054 --> 00:31:24,214 enabling team that can pop in and provide 920 00:31:24,214 --> 00:31:24,714 advice 921 00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:26,559 as needed. Right? 922 00:31:27,259 --> 00:31:29,440 And then maybe there's a, you know, a, 923 00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:33,580 complicated subsystem team in the in the team 924 00:31:33,580 --> 00:31:37,039 topologies language that's focused on on BGP routing. 925 00:31:37,224 --> 00:31:38,825 And and and they're handling that off to 926 00:31:38,825 --> 00:31:40,744 the side. And and, again, they can maybe 927 00:31:40,744 --> 00:31:42,504 provide that as a service to others or 928 00:31:42,504 --> 00:31:43,865 or they're just handling it and people can 929 00:31:43,865 --> 00:31:45,304 interact with them as they need. But, yeah, 930 00:31:45,304 --> 00:31:47,065 I think I think, you know, looking at 931 00:31:47,065 --> 00:31:48,345 how we can break this down in different 932 00:31:48,345 --> 00:31:50,345 ways instead of just saying, okay. It's tier 933 00:31:50,345 --> 00:31:52,579 one, tier two, tier three operations, 934 00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:55,839 engineering, architecture, security is over there, DNS is 935 00:31:55,839 --> 00:31:58,319 over there, monitoring is over there, and you 936 00:31:58,319 --> 00:32:00,160 guys figure it out. Because now you're creating 937 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:01,440 a situation where you do have to have 938 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,119 that full mesh between all these teams, which 939 00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:03,859 is not, 940 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:05,779 appropriate because, 941 00:32:06,494 --> 00:32:08,275 cognitive load is a big part of this. 942 00:32:08,335 --> 00:32:09,855 Right? If if if I if I've got 943 00:32:09,855 --> 00:32:11,015 to know all the things and know who 944 00:32:11,015 --> 00:32:12,414 to talk to for all the things and 945 00:32:12,414 --> 00:32:13,855 I've got to hold all that state, I 946 00:32:13,855 --> 00:32:15,454 don't have any brainpower left to do my 947 00:32:15,454 --> 00:32:17,134 job. But if you can take all that 948 00:32:17,134 --> 00:32:19,214 away and provide me these things as a 949 00:32:19,214 --> 00:32:21,299 service and I know just the things I 950 00:32:21,299 --> 00:32:22,660 need to know and everything else kinda just 951 00:32:22,660 --> 00:32:23,160 works, 952 00:32:23,539 --> 00:32:25,539 then I can focus a lot more cognitive 953 00:32:25,539 --> 00:32:27,059 load on the actual job that I've been 954 00:32:27,059 --> 00:32:28,740 hired to do instead of on all this 955 00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:30,099 other stuff of, like, okay. Where in the 956 00:32:30,099 --> 00:32:32,019 Wiki do I find the, you know, the 957 00:32:32,019 --> 00:32:33,460 BGP code that I have to copy and 958 00:32:33,460 --> 00:32:33,795 paste? 959 00:32:34,835 --> 00:32:36,855 Yeah. I like the I like the enabling 960 00:32:36,914 --> 00:32:37,414 team, 961 00:32:37,955 --> 00:32:39,174 version of architecture, 962 00:32:39,475 --> 00:32:41,315 Chris. I think that's really I think that's 963 00:32:41,315 --> 00:32:42,615 really cool. I 964 00:32:42,994 --> 00:32:44,755 I feel like I I feel like I've 965 00:32:44,755 --> 00:32:47,650 seen a couple a couple of the I've 966 00:32:47,650 --> 00:32:49,490 I've seen the aspiration of that a couple 967 00:32:49,490 --> 00:32:50,070 of times. 968 00:32:50,370 --> 00:32:52,470 And the issue is that people, 969 00:32:53,090 --> 00:32:54,930 if if all you're doing is giving advice, 970 00:32:54,930 --> 00:32:55,890 first of all, a lot of a lot 971 00:32:55,890 --> 00:32:58,150 of really smart people wanna be building things, 972 00:32:58,265 --> 00:33:00,025 and the smartest people don't go there. So 973 00:33:00,025 --> 00:33:01,384 I think I think it should be like, 974 00:33:01,384 --> 00:33:02,904 it just would have to be it would 975 00:33:02,904 --> 00:33:04,985 have to be done carefully with with the 976 00:33:04,985 --> 00:33:06,985 team has to provide deliverables of some sort 977 00:33:06,985 --> 00:33:08,205 in addition to advice. 978 00:33:08,745 --> 00:33:10,505 But I but I think that kind of 979 00:33:10,505 --> 00:33:11,945 thing could be a really fun job to 980 00:33:11,945 --> 00:33:13,490 do. I think it would, you know, and 981 00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:15,650 and they could cross pollinate. Like, they you 982 00:33:15,650 --> 00:33:17,809 know, by definition, they'd be moving between lots 983 00:33:17,809 --> 00:33:19,730 of different teams. And so ideas, I think, 984 00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:21,570 would get spread across the organization a lot 985 00:33:21,570 --> 00:33:23,809 more a lot more effectively. And, like, some 986 00:33:23,809 --> 00:33:24,390 of these 987 00:33:24,690 --> 00:33:27,009 awful, awful architecture reviews that I've been in, 988 00:33:27,009 --> 00:33:28,394 like, that I'm sure you all have been 989 00:33:28,394 --> 00:33:30,075 in, like, oh, my heavens. We don't we 990 00:33:30,075 --> 00:33:31,755 don't need this in PowerPoint. Let's just put 991 00:33:31,755 --> 00:33:34,075 a human that that is walking around talking 992 00:33:34,075 --> 00:33:36,575 to everybody. I don't know. Seems really cool. 993 00:33:37,355 --> 00:33:37,855 Yeah. 994 00:33:38,315 --> 00:33:38,815 Yep. 995 00:33:39,274 --> 00:33:41,115 And I I yeah. And one way you 996 00:33:41,115 --> 00:33:42,255 could do that, I suppose, 997 00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:44,869 is you could make your architecture team a 998 00:33:44,869 --> 00:33:45,690 super team 999 00:33:47,029 --> 00:33:49,529 that draws from all the other teams 1000 00:33:50,630 --> 00:33:51,589 25%, 1001 00:33:51,589 --> 00:33:53,130 30% of their time 1002 00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:54,809 is doing architecture, 1003 00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:57,964 and the rest of their time is doing 1004 00:33:58,265 --> 00:33:59,724 whatever they normally do. 1005 00:34:00,105 --> 00:34:02,664 Right? Right. So so, yeah, you take your 1006 00:34:02,664 --> 00:34:03,164 two 1007 00:34:03,545 --> 00:34:05,164 best DNS people 1008 00:34:06,664 --> 00:34:08,605 on the design side, not on the troubleshooting 1009 00:34:08,664 --> 00:34:10,744 side, because obviously those aren't necessarily the same 1010 00:34:10,744 --> 00:34:13,440 thing. Mhmm. And you put them, you say, 1011 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:15,760 okay, 30% of your time you're doing architecture 1012 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,519 work. And what I mean when I say 1013 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:19,619 architecture work is you are enabling 1014 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:21,539 the applications 1015 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:22,500 people 1016 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,739 to do what they need to do 1017 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:26,420 using DNS. 1018 00:34:27,554 --> 00:34:29,494 And and part of the problem is 1019 00:34:29,795 --> 00:34:31,554 people don't know what you can do with 1020 00:34:31,554 --> 00:34:33,074 a lot of the protocols and a lot 1021 00:34:33,074 --> 00:34:33,974 of the services 1022 00:34:34,514 --> 00:34:36,195 that are out there. So they go out 1023 00:34:36,195 --> 00:34:37,974 and they invent new things 1024 00:34:38,434 --> 00:34:38,934 Yeah. 1025 00:34:40,429 --> 00:34:42,429 Which great for you, you invented a new 1026 00:34:42,429 --> 00:34:45,170 thing except it looks just like the thing 1027 00:34:45,549 --> 00:34:47,789 that was already running someplace else in your 1028 00:34:47,789 --> 00:34:48,289 network 1029 00:34:49,069 --> 00:34:49,569 and 1030 00:34:50,190 --> 00:34:52,429 every other thing that's ever been invented in 1031 00:34:52,429 --> 00:34:53,969 the history of network engineering 1032 00:34:54,885 --> 00:34:56,425 and but it's a new thing. 1033 00:34:56,885 --> 00:34:58,344 I called it something different. 1034 00:34:59,125 --> 00:35:00,885 What what Russ was just talking about is 1035 00:35:00,885 --> 00:35:02,244 an example of why you would need a 1036 00:35:02,244 --> 00:35:05,144 generative culture. A bureaucratic culture could never tolerate 1037 00:35:05,204 --> 00:35:06,885 what you're talking about, 25% 1038 00:35:06,885 --> 00:35:08,244 of this and 75% 1039 00:35:08,244 --> 00:35:10,360 no way No way. And your bureaucracy would 1040 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,119 lose its mind. And then, you know, the 1041 00:35:12,119 --> 00:35:14,440 power centric probably has absolutely no way to 1042 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,920 comprehend that. But, yeah, the the culture would 1043 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,619 allow you to do these kinds of things. 1044 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:20,840 Right. Which is why yeah. Which is exactly 1045 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:21,960 why I think a lot of this comes 1046 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,059 back to that that that foundation of culture, 1047 00:35:24,315 --> 00:35:26,635 of having trust, of having cooperation, of having 1048 00:35:26,635 --> 00:35:29,355 psychological safety, which enables trust and cooperation, which 1049 00:35:29,355 --> 00:35:31,114 psychological safety is a really interesting topic, I 1050 00:35:31,114 --> 00:35:31,775 think, because 1051 00:35:32,155 --> 00:35:33,675 I find that a lot of people get 1052 00:35:33,675 --> 00:35:34,335 it wrong. 1053 00:35:35,355 --> 00:35:36,714 I think a lot of people think that 1054 00:35:36,714 --> 00:35:38,554 psychological safety means that everyone needs to be 1055 00:35:38,554 --> 00:35:40,299 nice to each other, and and I actually 1056 00:35:40,299 --> 00:35:43,440 think that's almost the opposite of what psychological 1057 00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:44,480 safety means. I mean, obviously, 1058 00:35:45,019 --> 00:35:47,339 you you you shouldn't be mean. Kindness is 1059 00:35:47,339 --> 00:35:48,699 definitely part of it, but I don't know 1060 00:35:48,699 --> 00:35:50,139 the niceness is part of it. Right? I 1061 00:35:50,139 --> 00:35:52,159 think to me, psychological safety, 1062 00:35:52,940 --> 00:35:54,355 I think I heard somebody say it's it's 1063 00:35:54,355 --> 00:35:55,414 permission for candor 1064 00:35:55,795 --> 00:35:57,315 is what it really means. Right? It's it's 1065 00:35:57,315 --> 00:35:58,515 it's the ability that you know that you 1066 00:35:58,515 --> 00:36:00,515 can say that the true thing no matter 1067 00:36:00,515 --> 00:36:02,114 who you're talking to, whether it's your boss, 1068 00:36:02,114 --> 00:36:04,355 your boss's boss, somebody from a different team. 1069 00:36:04,434 --> 00:36:05,675 I need to be able to tell you, 1070 00:36:05,675 --> 00:36:07,860 hey. This didn't work, and here's the result 1071 00:36:07,860 --> 00:36:09,619 I actually got. Or, hey. This was a 1072 00:36:09,619 --> 00:36:10,900 problem. Let's figure out what the real you 1073 00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:12,660 know, what what what what caused that. 1074 00:36:12,980 --> 00:36:14,500 It definitely is a move away from blame. 1075 00:36:14,500 --> 00:36:16,579 Right? It's not about blaming people, but it 1076 00:36:16,579 --> 00:36:18,420 is about talking about the things that aren't 1077 00:36:18,420 --> 00:36:18,920 working, 1078 00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:20,760 which isn't always nice. 1079 00:36:21,059 --> 00:36:22,740 You can do it kindly, but but Yeah. 1080 00:36:23,059 --> 00:36:25,344 Yeah. Well, I think another component of psychological 1081 00:36:25,405 --> 00:36:27,005 safety, and maybe we shouldn't do this here, 1082 00:36:27,005 --> 00:36:28,284 maybe we should do a different show. But 1083 00:36:28,284 --> 00:36:28,784 anyway, 1084 00:36:29,244 --> 00:36:32,125 another component of that is that people actually 1085 00:36:32,125 --> 00:36:33,824 trust each other enough to listen. 1086 00:36:34,605 --> 00:36:36,525 And we don't do very good at that. 1087 00:36:36,525 --> 00:36:37,264 I'm sorry. 1088 00:36:37,590 --> 00:36:39,289 I have been in situations 1089 00:36:39,590 --> 00:36:42,329 where I say, oh, no. You know, really, 1090 00:36:42,550 --> 00:36:44,230 you don't really wanna do it that way. 1091 00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:45,130 And they're like, 1092 00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:47,430 no, I do. And you're like, wait. Here's 1093 00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:48,650 a research paper 1094 00:36:49,684 --> 00:36:51,684 showing you that this or here's an example 1095 00:36:51,684 --> 00:36:53,784 of a protocol that did it that way, 1096 00:36:53,925 --> 00:36:55,525 and it failed, and this is how it 1097 00:36:55,525 --> 00:36:56,025 failed. 1098 00:36:56,724 --> 00:36:58,164 And they're just like, but you're not on 1099 00:36:58,164 --> 00:37:00,164 my team. I don't need to pay attention 1100 00:37:00,164 --> 00:37:00,824 to you. 1101 00:37:01,125 --> 00:37:03,545 Whatever it is, it's not the process, 1102 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:05,460 blah, blah, blah, blah, 1103 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,019 blah. And then they walk away without listening. 1104 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,079 Mhmm. And then then you get to the 1105 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:11,219 point where you're like, 1106 00:37:11,519 --> 00:37:12,660 why am I talking? 1107 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,239 Why do I research? Why do I open 1108 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:16,980 my mouth 1109 00:37:17,744 --> 00:37:19,744 if no one's ever gonna listen? And I 1110 00:37:19,744 --> 00:37:22,625 think there's components of that as well in 1111 00:37:22,625 --> 00:37:23,125 there. 1112 00:37:23,505 --> 00:37:25,764 There's this there's this great thing that's defined, 1113 00:37:26,704 --> 00:37:29,920 in Westrum's typology, and he talks about the 1114 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,140 the responses across several different categories for pathological, 1115 00:37:33,519 --> 00:37:34,660 bureaucratic, and generative. 1116 00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,119 And my favorite is the one where it 1117 00:37:37,119 --> 00:37:38,179 talks about messengers. 1118 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:39,460 And in a pathological 1119 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,539 culture, messengers are shot. 1120 00:37:42,079 --> 00:37:42,820 In a bureaucratic 1121 00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:46,045 culture, messengers are neglected. And what you described, 1122 00:37:46,045 --> 00:37:48,385 Russ, was somewhere between the two. Either, 1123 00:37:48,765 --> 00:37:51,085 like, you know, like, why I don't even 1124 00:37:51,085 --> 00:37:52,765 need to listen to you go away, which 1125 00:37:52,765 --> 00:37:54,144 to me is more shot. 1126 00:37:54,684 --> 00:37:55,184 And 1127 00:37:55,565 --> 00:37:57,724 and and then neglected is like, yeah. Whatever. 1128 00:37:57,724 --> 00:37:59,005 You can say that, but I'm gonna go 1129 00:37:59,005 --> 00:37:59,880 do my own thing anyway. 1130 00:38:00,359 --> 00:38:03,319 In generative cultures, messengers are trained. In other 1131 00:38:03,319 --> 00:38:06,059 words, like the people who come with 1132 00:38:07,799 --> 00:38:10,139 feedback about the state of the system 1133 00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:13,434 are they're they're not just listened to. They're 1134 00:38:13,434 --> 00:38:16,394 empowered to do that better because we realize 1135 00:38:16,394 --> 00:38:19,214 that our messengers, our truth tellers, 1136 00:38:20,074 --> 00:38:21,454 yes, who do that respectfully 1137 00:38:21,994 --> 00:38:24,074 are actually the lifeblood of how we get 1138 00:38:24,074 --> 00:38:24,574 better. 1139 00:38:25,114 --> 00:38:26,655 And I think that that 1140 00:38:27,609 --> 00:38:29,150 component is so important. 1141 00:38:29,690 --> 00:38:31,949 Yeah. Bringing this back to net to NetOps 1142 00:38:32,409 --> 00:38:34,429 and and how we operate networks. 1143 00:38:35,609 --> 00:38:36,670 Here, we have 1144 00:38:36,969 --> 00:38:38,349 the people in the core 1145 00:38:38,889 --> 00:38:40,829 telling somebody who's building a campus, 1146 00:38:41,664 --> 00:38:43,984 honestly, you really shouldn't use that data center 1147 00:38:43,984 --> 00:38:45,045 fabric router 1148 00:38:45,824 --> 00:38:46,724 in your campus. 1149 00:38:47,344 --> 00:38:50,085 Right? It's not really designed for campus use. 1150 00:38:50,385 --> 00:38:52,144 And the data center people or the the 1151 00:38:52,144 --> 00:38:53,364 campus people going, 1152 00:38:53,744 --> 00:38:55,204 forget you. It's cheap. 1153 00:38:55,710 --> 00:38:57,710 I don't care. I'm gonna use what I 1154 00:38:57,710 --> 00:38:58,530 wanna use. 1155 00:38:59,150 --> 00:39:00,690 Not accepting or understanding 1156 00:39:00,989 --> 00:39:01,650 the wisdom 1157 00:39:02,349 --> 00:39:04,429 of the other teams who have built stuff 1158 00:39:04,429 --> 00:39:05,170 at scale 1159 00:39:05,869 --> 00:39:08,364 because they're different than you. I think that's 1160 00:39:08,364 --> 00:39:09,985 a big part of NetOps 1161 00:39:10,525 --> 00:39:12,864 that people seem to miss, to me anyway. 1162 00:39:13,965 --> 00:39:15,505 By the way, same thing with coders. 1163 00:39:16,364 --> 00:39:18,525 I've seen so many times when somebody's doing 1164 00:39:18,525 --> 00:39:19,025 DevOps, 1165 00:39:19,739 --> 00:39:21,900 and they're writing a piece of code to 1166 00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:24,539 do something very simple, get all the BGP 1167 00:39:24,539 --> 00:39:26,300 information out of a 100 routers, whatever it 1168 00:39:26,300 --> 00:39:28,239 is, fix fix some silly thing. 1169 00:39:28,940 --> 00:39:30,960 And the coder comes to them and says, 1170 00:39:31,179 --> 00:39:32,780 you go to a coder for help, a 1171 00:39:32,780 --> 00:39:34,704 full time coder for help, and you say, 1172 00:39:34,704 --> 00:39:36,784 well, how why isn't this working? They're like, 1173 00:39:36,784 --> 00:39:39,284 okay. Honestly, the data structure you're using 1174 00:39:39,824 --> 00:39:41,525 is not really the cool thing. 1175 00:39:42,545 --> 00:39:44,625 And the and the DevOps person goes, it's 1176 00:39:44,625 --> 00:39:46,545 already written. That's what I'm using. Now just 1177 00:39:46,545 --> 00:39:48,644 help me fix my problem. Right? 1178 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,300 No. Not cool. Stop that. 1179 00:39:54,079 --> 00:39:55,679 Yeah. And there's a lot of individual quirks 1180 00:39:55,679 --> 00:39:57,359 that I think could contribute into it. So 1181 00:39:57,359 --> 00:39:59,199 I think culture kinda gets smashed on both 1182 00:39:59,199 --> 00:40:00,960 sides. Right? Like, the individual the leadership definitely 1183 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,114 has a play part to play, but but 1184 00:40:02,114 --> 00:40:04,215 the individuals do as well. And I think, 1185 00:40:04,275 --> 00:40:06,195 you know, some of this is that, 1186 00:40:07,715 --> 00:40:09,235 I I guess you maybe call it ego 1187 00:40:09,235 --> 00:40:10,994 that that's tied into a lot of folks 1188 00:40:10,994 --> 00:40:12,114 who work in IT. I know I I 1189 00:40:12,114 --> 00:40:13,875 struggled with that definitely early in my career 1190 00:40:13,875 --> 00:40:15,554 for quite a while where I I felt 1191 00:40:15,554 --> 00:40:17,014 like I needed to know the answer 1192 00:40:17,474 --> 00:40:19,309 to such a degree that I was unwilling 1193 00:40:19,530 --> 00:40:22,010 to be wrong, which which which, you know, 1194 00:40:22,010 --> 00:40:23,070 doesn't allow learning. 1195 00:40:23,690 --> 00:40:25,130 Another side is, like, there's there's definitely, like, 1196 00:40:25,130 --> 00:40:26,410 the idea of, like, the folks that kinda 1197 00:40:26,410 --> 00:40:28,489 hoard control or hoard knowledge because they think 1198 00:40:28,489 --> 00:40:30,489 that's how they become valuable or irreplaceable is 1199 00:40:30,489 --> 00:40:31,690 that they don't talk to anybody and they 1200 00:40:31,690 --> 00:40:33,775 don't tell anybody what's going on. Yeah. So 1201 00:40:33,775 --> 00:40:35,614 you definitely yeah. There's definitely these, like, individual 1202 00:40:35,614 --> 00:40:37,235 quirks that that play into this. 1203 00:40:37,775 --> 00:40:39,295 It's not easy. It's not easy to have 1204 00:40:39,295 --> 00:40:42,175 a trusting culture. It's it sounds really, really 1205 00:40:42,175 --> 00:40:43,394 nice, and it is great. 1206 00:40:43,775 --> 00:40:45,630 But it's it's work. It's constant work. 1207 00:40:46,190 --> 00:40:47,869 And we we all want to be in 1208 00:40:47,869 --> 00:40:48,849 a trusting culture. 1209 00:40:49,230 --> 00:40:50,510 A lot of times we don't wanna build 1210 00:40:50,510 --> 00:40:53,409 one. Mhmm. Right? Because building one takes significant, 1211 00:40:53,469 --> 00:40:55,969 like, interpersonal risk, and it's challenging. 1212 00:40:56,510 --> 00:40:57,010 And 1213 00:40:57,469 --> 00:40:59,324 you've gotta be willing to stand up and 1214 00:40:59,324 --> 00:41:01,005 be the one that takes the hits. And 1215 00:41:01,005 --> 00:41:01,505 so, 1216 00:41:02,364 --> 00:41:04,764 yeah. Like, we all wanna be be in 1217 00:41:04,764 --> 00:41:06,844 a trusting culture. It's way harder for us 1218 00:41:06,844 --> 00:41:09,105 to be the ones who start or, 1219 00:41:10,204 --> 00:41:12,679 yeah, begin to try and exhibit that trust. 1220 00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:14,679 Go ahead. Yeah. And so if you're an 1221 00:41:14,679 --> 00:41:17,179 individual trying to develop that skill set 1222 00:41:17,799 --> 00:41:19,099 to be better at 1223 00:41:19,799 --> 00:41:21,960 NetOps and DevOps, just to throw this in 1224 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:23,655 there, it's not really the topic, but 1225 00:41:24,534 --> 00:41:25,914 go present stuff, 1226 00:41:26,775 --> 00:41:27,675 write stuff, 1227 00:41:27,974 --> 00:41:29,114 and teach stuff. 1228 00:41:29,494 --> 00:41:31,994 Because people will tell you when you're wrong. 1229 00:41:33,335 --> 00:41:35,515 And not only does it improve your knowledge, 1230 00:41:35,940 --> 00:41:37,719 it also improves your humility. 1231 00:41:38,579 --> 00:41:40,420 Like, I I can write things now. I 1232 00:41:40,420 --> 00:41:41,940 can write a whole book, and somebody come 1233 00:41:41,940 --> 00:41:43,780 back and say I can have Edgar come 1234 00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:44,599 back and say, 1235 00:41:44,980 --> 00:41:46,659 you know, mark half of it with red 1236 00:41:46,659 --> 00:41:47,159 ink. 1237 00:41:47,699 --> 00:41:48,199 Okay? 1238 00:41:48,659 --> 00:41:50,199 I don't really care anymore. 1239 00:41:50,635 --> 00:41:51,135 Right? 1240 00:41:51,595 --> 00:41:54,235 My my ego left the room about book 1241 00:41:54,235 --> 00:41:55,055 number three. 1242 00:41:58,954 --> 00:41:59,454 Yeah. 1243 00:42:00,715 --> 00:42:02,315 Yeah. That is tough going through the editorial 1244 00:42:02,315 --> 00:42:03,755 process your first time or whether it's an 1245 00:42:03,755 --> 00:42:04,795 art I mean, a book is is is 1246 00:42:04,795 --> 00:42:06,289 huge, but even just an article, you gotta 1247 00:42:06,289 --> 00:42:07,730 run it through somebody else to, like, go 1248 00:42:07,730 --> 00:42:09,090 through and and mark it up. And you're 1249 00:42:09,090 --> 00:42:11,429 like, you can definitely take that very personally. 1250 00:42:11,489 --> 00:42:12,530 And that's a that's a big part of 1251 00:42:12,530 --> 00:42:13,969 this too just in general. Right? Like, just 1252 00:42:13,969 --> 00:42:16,130 take things less personally. I mean, we should 1253 00:42:16,130 --> 00:42:17,190 care about our work, 1254 00:42:17,570 --> 00:42:19,239 and so there's a balance here. Maybe everything's 1255 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:20,994 a balancing act, I guess. But there's a 1256 00:42:20,994 --> 00:42:22,355 balance here between, you know, caring about your 1257 00:42:22,355 --> 00:42:24,034 work and then not taking it too personally 1258 00:42:24,034 --> 00:42:26,755 where you're actually getting, you know, depressed or 1259 00:42:26,755 --> 00:42:29,394 pissed when someone brings something points out a 1260 00:42:29,394 --> 00:42:31,074 mistake you made or or something along those 1261 00:42:31,074 --> 00:42:33,155 lines. Yeah. Exactly. This is this is where 1262 00:42:33,155 --> 00:42:35,474 network engineers have something to learn from software 1263 00:42:35,474 --> 00:42:37,980 developers. Like, it's just natural and part of, 1264 00:42:37,980 --> 00:42:40,239 like, code review is just is just life. 1265 00:42:40,860 --> 00:42:43,099 Like, and, like, having someone else look at 1266 00:42:43,099 --> 00:42:45,119 your work is what you would normally do. 1267 00:42:45,260 --> 00:42:47,019 And, you know, they're gonna and just because 1268 00:42:47,019 --> 00:42:48,460 they offer feedback doesn't mean you have to 1269 00:42:48,460 --> 00:42:49,660 take it and all that stuff that that 1270 00:42:49,660 --> 00:42:51,519 comes with it. Like, I think there's 1271 00:42:51,844 --> 00:42:53,605 I I have enjoyed quite a lot being 1272 00:42:53,605 --> 00:42:55,525 in mostly in software the last few years. 1273 00:42:55,525 --> 00:42:58,005 I've enjoyed quite a lot having someone else 1274 00:42:58,005 --> 00:42:59,444 look at it and point it point out 1275 00:42:59,444 --> 00:43:02,164 something, and, oh, oh, awesome. Like, I I 1276 00:43:02,164 --> 00:43:04,404 get to learn from this before it becomes 1277 00:43:04,404 --> 00:43:06,264 a disaster in production. Like 1278 00:43:07,859 --> 00:43:10,739 Yep. Definitely true. So, yeah, all trust culture 1279 00:43:10,739 --> 00:43:11,559 type stuff. 1280 00:43:11,859 --> 00:43:14,339 And as you said, generative culture type stuff. 1281 00:43:14,339 --> 00:43:14,839 Right? 1282 00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:19,000 Power cultures and pure bureaucratic cultures don't really 1283 00:43:19,539 --> 00:43:21,719 deal with these problems very well. 1284 00:43:22,664 --> 00:43:23,164 Okay. 1285 00:43:24,184 --> 00:43:25,945 I think I'm at the end of my 1286 00:43:25,945 --> 00:43:28,265 discussion on culture. I know Yvonne can go 1287 00:43:28,265 --> 00:43:29,565 for another two hours. 1288 00:43:30,265 --> 00:43:32,525 We could. But it's okay. Brytes are good. 1289 00:43:32,985 --> 00:43:33,485 Yeah. 1290 00:43:33,864 --> 00:43:36,045 Save some for the next show. That's right. 1291 00:43:36,389 --> 00:43:37,989 So, Chris, we gotta have you back on 1292 00:43:37,989 --> 00:43:40,949 sometime on a more regular basis. It's, you 1293 00:43:40,949 --> 00:43:41,449 know, 1294 00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:43,429 we just gotta find topics. That's all we 1295 00:43:43,429 --> 00:43:45,049 ever gotta do is find topics. 1296 00:43:45,510 --> 00:43:47,510 So Well, there's a whole another thing. So 1297 00:43:47,510 --> 00:43:49,684 Westrom is great. There's also this guy, doctor 1298 00:43:49,684 --> 00:43:52,184 Rob Cook, who has another framework, that's interesting. 1299 00:43:52,405 --> 00:43:53,925 There's a like you said, this this topic 1300 00:43:53,925 --> 00:43:55,284 can can dive a little deeper and there's 1301 00:43:55,284 --> 00:43:57,525 ancillary stuff as well. Okay. Cool. Also, more 1302 00:43:57,525 --> 00:43:59,684 technical topics too. Yeah. Somewhere. Yeah. That's cool. 1303 00:43:59,684 --> 00:44:02,405 Awesome. Alright. So, Chris, where do people find 1304 00:44:02,405 --> 00:44:04,409 you if they want to? Do you blog? 1305 00:44:04,409 --> 00:44:04,909 Or 1306 00:44:05,369 --> 00:44:07,130 Yeah. So chrisgundeman.com. 1307 00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:08,269 There's a blog there, 1308 00:44:08,969 --> 00:44:10,650 where where I keep updated pretty well. And 1309 00:44:10,650 --> 00:44:12,730 then, on I've been more and more active 1310 00:44:12,730 --> 00:44:14,170 on LinkedIn as well lately. So if you're 1311 00:44:14,170 --> 00:44:16,445 on LinkedIn, definitely feel free to follow me, 1312 00:44:16,905 --> 00:44:19,085 and I share things there as well. Cool. 1313 00:44:19,545 --> 00:44:20,445 And Yvonne? 1314 00:44:21,864 --> 00:44:24,265 Yeah. You can find me on LinkedIn or 1315 00:44:24,265 --> 00:44:25,885 on Twitter at Sharp Network. 1316 00:44:26,425 --> 00:44:29,420 Yeah. And also at the Cloud Gambit over 1317 00:44:29,420 --> 00:44:30,079 at PocketStation. 1318 00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:32,720 Gonna say, I know that you're doing another 1319 00:44:32,780 --> 00:44:35,180 podcast. Do not leave it out. I'm sorry. 1320 00:44:35,340 --> 00:44:36,800 Short changing our audience. 1321 00:44:37,260 --> 00:44:37,920 Oh, well, 1322 00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:40,380 no. Come see us over at the Cloud 1323 00:44:40,380 --> 00:44:40,880 Gambit. 1324 00:44:42,875 --> 00:44:44,655 And, Tom, say your word. 1325 00:44:46,234 --> 00:44:46,734 LinkedIn. 1326 00:44:48,714 --> 00:44:50,474 I think that tell tell the editor, by 1327 00:44:50,474 --> 00:44:51,914 the way, don't take out the pause because 1328 00:44:51,914 --> 00:44:53,614 I think that's part of my thing now. 1329 00:44:57,519 --> 00:44:59,839 Alright. Cool. Well, thank you very much for 1330 00:44:59,839 --> 00:45:01,359 listening this episode of The Hedge all the 1331 00:45:01,359 --> 00:45:02,579 way to the bitter end. 1332 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:04,480 We know we live in an attention driven 1333 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:04,980 economy, 1334 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,519 and so we thank you for spending the 1335 00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:09,074 time with us and giving us your attention, 1336 00:45:09,074 --> 00:45:10,534 and we will catch you next 1337 00:45:13,795 --> 00:45:14,295 time.