1 00:00:01,839 --> 00:00:03,839 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:05,299 where we dig into technology, 3 00:00:05,599 --> 00:00:08,320 business, and culture with the finest minds in 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:09,220 computer networking. 5 00:00:21,095 --> 00:00:23,574 Well, hello, Jonathan. Is it Jonathan or John? 6 00:00:23,574 --> 00:00:24,054 Or do you 7 00:00:24,855 --> 00:00:27,835 Jonathan. Okay. Jonathan. Alright. Jonathan Adams. 8 00:00:29,099 --> 00:00:30,859 And you were telling me before we started 9 00:00:30,859 --> 00:00:33,899 recording that you are aware again? You are 10 00:00:33,899 --> 00:00:36,460 Western Tennessee. I think you said Murfreesboro. Is 11 00:00:36,460 --> 00:00:36,619 that 12 00:00:37,579 --> 00:00:40,699 Yeah. South Nashville area. Okay. So Middle Tennessee. 13 00:00:40,699 --> 00:00:43,100 Middle Tennessee. Alright. Middle Tennessee, which is odd 14 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:45,354 because you're in a different time zone than 15 00:00:45,354 --> 00:00:46,975 I am, and I'm in Eastern Tennessee. 16 00:00:47,515 --> 00:00:49,274 But a lot of people don't realize Tennessee 17 00:00:49,274 --> 00:00:52,395 is a very long skinny state. And so 18 00:00:52,475 --> 00:00:54,075 Very long. We have two Yeah. Very long. 19 00:00:54,075 --> 00:00:56,495 So we have two time zones in there. 20 00:00:57,210 --> 00:00:58,829 My wife and I were in Nashville, 21 00:00:59,770 --> 00:01:01,789 oh, two months ago, three months ago, 22 00:01:02,809 --> 00:01:05,209 for various reasons. We didn't spend well, we 23 00:01:05,209 --> 00:01:07,790 spent some time. We went to the Ryman, 24 00:01:08,890 --> 00:01:10,875 which is always a lot of fun. 25 00:01:11,355 --> 00:01:13,775 I really like the Ryman because 26 00:01:14,954 --> 00:01:15,855 it's historical 27 00:01:16,795 --> 00:01:19,114 and the hole is cut in the floor 28 00:01:19,114 --> 00:01:20,575 where they replace the 29 00:01:20,875 --> 00:01:21,915 the piece of wood. I don't know if 30 00:01:21,915 --> 00:01:23,790 you've ever been to the Ryman. Oh, yeah. 31 00:01:23,790 --> 00:01:26,189 But it's acoustically perfect. I mean, they didn't 32 00:01:26,189 --> 00:01:27,810 design it to be. It just is. 33 00:01:28,269 --> 00:01:29,170 And so, 34 00:01:30,430 --> 00:01:31,409 it's a really, 35 00:01:31,950 --> 00:01:34,989 really cool place, I think, the Ryman is, 36 00:01:34,989 --> 00:01:36,909 just the history of the place and everything 37 00:01:36,909 --> 00:01:37,245 else. 38 00:01:37,885 --> 00:01:39,965 I've actually sang on that stage when I 39 00:01:39,965 --> 00:01:41,564 was in high school and in the high 40 00:01:41,564 --> 00:01:44,204 school choir, and on the Grand Ole Opry's 41 00:01:44,204 --> 00:01:44,944 current stage. 42 00:01:45,645 --> 00:01:47,424 So I've been in both places. 43 00:01:47,965 --> 00:01:51,005 So anyway, so you're Southwest Of Nashville, South 44 00:01:51,005 --> 00:01:53,250 Of Nashville, which is really cool. And what 45 00:01:53,250 --> 00:01:55,909 do you your degree is in mechanical engineering. 46 00:01:56,369 --> 00:01:58,530 Correct? Yeah. I have a degree in mechanical 47 00:01:58,530 --> 00:02:00,149 engineering. I also have an MBA, 48 00:02:00,609 --> 00:02:02,129 but, yeah, most of it's been in mechanical 49 00:02:02,129 --> 00:02:04,849 engineering. Which is very interesting because now you 50 00:02:04,849 --> 00:02:05,349 do? 51 00:02:06,495 --> 00:02:09,074 More data science type work right now. So 52 00:02:09,375 --> 00:02:11,375 what what attracted it to me was a 53 00:02:11,375 --> 00:02:13,634 lot of the algorithms and applied mathematics. 54 00:02:14,254 --> 00:02:14,754 Okay. 55 00:02:15,215 --> 00:02:17,775 Most I think most data science kinda struggle 56 00:02:17,775 --> 00:02:19,215 from that end because they come through it 57 00:02:19,215 --> 00:02:20,034 from the coding 58 00:02:20,495 --> 00:02:21,750 window, so to speak. 59 00:02:22,710 --> 00:02:24,490 And I'm picking it up from the reverse, 60 00:02:25,830 --> 00:02:26,810 reverse warranty. 61 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:28,409 Yeah. Oh, it's weird. 62 00:02:28,710 --> 00:02:30,550 Because I'm a network engineer, but I started 63 00:02:30,550 --> 00:02:31,289 in electronics. 64 00:02:31,830 --> 00:02:34,310 And so my background actually helps me a 65 00:02:34,310 --> 00:02:34,810 lot 66 00:02:35,430 --> 00:02:36,889 to be able to say, 67 00:02:37,314 --> 00:02:40,675 oh, look, that's physically how this signal is 68 00:02:40,675 --> 00:02:41,175 transmitted. 69 00:02:41,715 --> 00:02:44,594 Right? And most people in network engineering don't 70 00:02:44,594 --> 00:02:45,094 know 71 00:02:45,634 --> 00:02:46,134 modulation. 72 00:02:46,754 --> 00:02:48,775 And yet when I come to SATCOM systems, 73 00:02:49,074 --> 00:02:51,495 I can nail the modulation system because 74 00:02:52,259 --> 00:02:53,939 it's what I did for a living for 75 00:02:53,939 --> 00:02:54,680 many years. 76 00:02:54,979 --> 00:02:57,539 So Tim has just joined us. Hey, Tim. 77 00:02:57,539 --> 00:02:58,199 You can 78 00:02:58,819 --> 00:03:00,740 jump in. I wanna see where you where 79 00:03:00,740 --> 00:03:03,300 you are physically. Where are you? Oh, yeah. 80 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:04,259 Sure. I'm in, 81 00:03:04,900 --> 00:03:07,560 RTP here in North Carolina, actually. Okay. 82 00:03:07,895 --> 00:03:10,294 Yeah. Of course, I've lived in Cary for 83 00:03:10,294 --> 00:03:12,215 many years. So oh, you're in Wake Forest. 84 00:03:12,215 --> 00:03:13,834 Alright. Yep. That's right. 85 00:03:14,134 --> 00:03:15,814 I went to college in Wake Forest for 86 00:03:15,814 --> 00:03:17,194 a couple of years, so I kinda 87 00:03:17,655 --> 00:03:19,114 yeah. Kinda live in that area. 88 00:03:19,495 --> 00:03:21,894 Southeastern Baptist. Yeah. It's a great place. That's 89 00:03:21,894 --> 00:03:22,955 a great campus. 90 00:03:23,569 --> 00:03:25,270 Southeastern Baptist campus is 91 00:03:25,969 --> 00:03:26,469 unbelievably 92 00:03:26,849 --> 00:03:29,030 beautiful. It's such a great place. 93 00:03:29,730 --> 00:03:32,710 Yeah. So, anyway, so we're talking about planning. 94 00:03:33,010 --> 00:03:34,469 Alright. So, Jonathan, 95 00:03:35,169 --> 00:03:37,490 talk to me about what you see in 96 00:03:37,490 --> 00:03:38,150 the field 97 00:03:38,615 --> 00:03:40,375 in your experience. Of course, you're coming from 98 00:03:40,375 --> 00:03:41,355 more data analytics 99 00:03:41,895 --> 00:03:43,995 and more from the mechanical or the mechanical 100 00:03:44,055 --> 00:03:44,555 side. 101 00:03:44,935 --> 00:03:46,615 But talk to me about what you're seeing 102 00:03:46,615 --> 00:03:47,355 with planning 103 00:03:47,974 --> 00:03:50,055 in the field. Like, you wrote an article 104 00:03:50,055 --> 00:03:51,995 on LinkedIn about the problem with planning 105 00:03:52,349 --> 00:03:54,370 and how we're not doing enough of it. 106 00:03:54,590 --> 00:03:56,189 Talk to us a little bit about that. 107 00:03:56,189 --> 00:03:57,250 And then Certainly. 108 00:03:57,870 --> 00:03:59,870 Well, one of the things that I've observed 109 00:03:59,870 --> 00:04:01,870 here is that, especially with the large push 110 00:04:01,870 --> 00:04:04,210 with AI and everything else, is we're 111 00:04:04,750 --> 00:04:06,590 so quick to go to development that we 112 00:04:06,590 --> 00:04:07,814 don't really stop to 113 00:04:08,294 --> 00:04:10,294 plan. It's how fast can we get the 114 00:04:10,294 --> 00:04:11,655 code up? Can we throw it against the 115 00:04:11,655 --> 00:04:14,375 wall? Debug it? Does it work? Execute, push, 116 00:04:14,375 --> 00:04:16,295 move on, do our commits. We'll fix it 117 00:04:16,295 --> 00:04:17,675 later if the problem arises. 118 00:04:18,615 --> 00:04:21,095 And for some reason, years ago, I had 119 00:04:21,095 --> 00:04:21,754 ran across 120 00:04:22,110 --> 00:04:24,750 parts of the Fortran code that NASA utilized 121 00:04:24,750 --> 00:04:25,729 back in the sixties. 122 00:04:26,110 --> 00:04:27,229 And I thought, well, wouldn't that make a 123 00:04:27,229 --> 00:04:28,909 great article if I could actually pull up 124 00:04:28,909 --> 00:04:30,990 one of those entire code sets? And I 125 00:04:30,990 --> 00:04:32,509 was looking to write an article from my 126 00:04:32,509 --> 00:04:34,029 personal website, and I thought, well, no one's 127 00:04:34,029 --> 00:04:35,329 really gonna wanna see this. 128 00:04:35,954 --> 00:04:37,634 And so, anyways, I searched for it and 129 00:04:37,634 --> 00:04:39,475 I found it. It was a technical document 130 00:04:39,475 --> 00:04:41,334 from, 1963. 131 00:04:41,394 --> 00:04:43,074 It's about 98 pages. And as I read 132 00:04:43,074 --> 00:04:44,354 through it, I was kind of blown away 133 00:04:44,354 --> 00:04:45,334 because they spent 134 00:04:45,714 --> 00:04:47,714 the first 30 pages just laying out the 135 00:04:47,714 --> 00:04:49,314 physics, which, you know, you would have to 136 00:04:49,314 --> 00:04:51,540 do. But the rest of the booklet, with 137 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:53,540 exception like the last four or five pages, 138 00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:55,620 which actually showed the Fortran code, was all 139 00:04:55,620 --> 00:04:57,300 about laying out how the code was gonna 140 00:04:57,300 --> 00:04:59,060 progress. It was this is gonna be all 141 00:04:59,060 --> 00:05:01,139 the variables. This is the variable types. Here's 142 00:05:01,139 --> 00:05:03,634 the table showing the variables. Here's the nomenclature 143 00:05:03,775 --> 00:05:04,595 for the variables, 144 00:05:04,895 --> 00:05:06,275 and it was very clear. 145 00:05:06,735 --> 00:05:08,654 If you had this bulletin in your hand 146 00:05:08,654 --> 00:05:10,175 and you went to go sit in front 147 00:05:10,175 --> 00:05:10,675 of 148 00:05:11,055 --> 00:05:13,615 the monitor with this code, you knew exactly 149 00:05:13,615 --> 00:05:14,675 what was going on. 150 00:05:15,055 --> 00:05:17,610 And I thought that is so lacking today 151 00:05:17,610 --> 00:05:19,230 because we're in such a rush 152 00:05:19,770 --> 00:05:20,830 to put code 153 00:05:21,529 --> 00:05:23,689 in a file instead of actually sitting down 154 00:05:23,689 --> 00:05:25,930 with pen and paper and actually thinking about 155 00:05:25,930 --> 00:05:27,290 what we want it to look like, what 156 00:05:27,290 --> 00:05:28,889 we want it to do, and why do 157 00:05:28,889 --> 00:05:30,504 we want we want it to do it 158 00:05:30,504 --> 00:05:31,245 that way, 159 00:05:32,024 --> 00:05:33,225 that we're missing out on a lot of 160 00:05:33,225 --> 00:05:34,845 opportunity. And I'm not certain, 161 00:05:35,704 --> 00:05:36,985 I'm not certain that we have a lot 162 00:05:36,985 --> 00:05:39,464 of time savings in doing this the way 163 00:05:39,464 --> 00:05:41,225 that we're doing it today. I believe the 164 00:05:41,225 --> 00:05:44,264 time savings would be go think through it 165 00:05:44,264 --> 00:05:44,764 once, 166 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:48,600 Plot it out like you want it to 167 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:50,520 be done once and then go put it 168 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,139 in. But Yeah. Because 169 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:53,480 because our, 170 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,379 computer hardware is so advanced and because 171 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,654 memory is is cheap, everything's cheap, and it's 172 00:05:59,654 --> 00:06:00,154 inexpensive, 173 00:06:00,935 --> 00:06:01,675 we just 174 00:06:02,055 --> 00:06:02,794 do whatever. 175 00:06:04,134 --> 00:06:07,014 Yeah. We do. And I think there is 176 00:06:07,014 --> 00:06:07,514 validity, 177 00:06:07,814 --> 00:06:09,654 like, part of what you're talking about here 178 00:06:09,654 --> 00:06:10,714 is the agile method, 179 00:06:11,029 --> 00:06:13,029 because that's what agile does. Right? Mhmm. We 180 00:06:13,029 --> 00:06:15,189 do scrums. We do that. Mhmm. And we 181 00:06:15,189 --> 00:06:16,870 just try things. And part of this is 182 00:06:16,870 --> 00:06:19,670 the this culture of Silicon Valley is move 183 00:06:19,670 --> 00:06:21,910 fast and break stuff. Just break it and 184 00:06:21,910 --> 00:06:22,730 see what happens. 185 00:06:23,555 --> 00:06:24,935 I think there's some validity 186 00:06:25,475 --> 00:06:26,854 in that model, 187 00:06:27,394 --> 00:06:29,334 but I think there's a lot of problems 188 00:06:29,394 --> 00:06:30,694 that we don't think about. 189 00:06:31,235 --> 00:06:34,035 Like, I am constantly blown away at our 190 00:06:34,035 --> 00:06:35,415 lack of risk assessment. 191 00:06:37,629 --> 00:06:38,370 Mhmm. We never 192 00:06:38,830 --> 00:06:41,970 ever I have seen so many architecture processes 193 00:06:42,110 --> 00:06:45,389 now and software development life cycles from different 194 00:06:45,389 --> 00:06:46,930 companies and different places. 195 00:06:48,044 --> 00:06:51,164 There is almost no risk assessment in, in 196 00:06:51,164 --> 00:06:53,084 fact, not only is there almost none. There 197 00:06:53,084 --> 00:06:54,464 is no risk assessment 198 00:06:55,644 --> 00:06:58,544 done on there is no failure mode layouts. 199 00:06:59,164 --> 00:07:00,064 There are no 200 00:07:00,410 --> 00:07:02,329 what can we do to not have that 201 00:07:02,329 --> 00:07:04,110 failure mode. There there's nothing. 202 00:07:04,889 --> 00:07:05,790 It's complete 203 00:07:06,810 --> 00:07:07,310 chaos. 204 00:07:07,930 --> 00:07:09,310 Let's just do it. 205 00:07:10,410 --> 00:07:12,250 So I don't know. Tim, anything from your 206 00:07:12,250 --> 00:07:14,074 end on that? That's Yeah. No. This is 207 00:07:14,074 --> 00:07:15,514 great, actually. This is great. 208 00:07:16,074 --> 00:07:16,814 I like 209 00:07:17,115 --> 00:07:18,895 I like what Jonathan said about 210 00:07:19,435 --> 00:07:22,074 the idea of, like, nowadays, it's all about 211 00:07:22,074 --> 00:07:24,955 race to the the quickest conclusion. And and 212 00:07:24,955 --> 00:07:27,035 I actually, it's great that you said that, 213 00:07:27,035 --> 00:07:29,220 Russ, about agile development because that's actually what 214 00:07:29,220 --> 00:07:30,579 I was thinking at the same time. I 215 00:07:30,579 --> 00:07:32,759 was like, it's it's kind of a the 216 00:07:33,379 --> 00:07:35,939 the waterfall versus agile methodology, and I think 217 00:07:35,939 --> 00:07:37,159 there's actually validity 218 00:07:37,459 --> 00:07:38,599 in both models. 219 00:07:39,699 --> 00:07:41,535 But then thinking as a as a network 220 00:07:41,774 --> 00:07:43,694 engineer myself or an architect or whatever you 221 00:07:43,694 --> 00:07:45,314 wanna call it, you know, 222 00:07:45,774 --> 00:07:46,435 the infrastructure 223 00:07:46,814 --> 00:07:48,274 engineering is all about, 224 00:07:48,654 --> 00:07:51,134 you know, risk assessment and then planning for 225 00:07:51,134 --> 00:07:53,055 resiliency and all of that. But you're absolutely 226 00:07:53,055 --> 00:07:56,035 right. From a software perspective, you don't usually 227 00:07:56,095 --> 00:07:57,074 see that level 228 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:58,379 of resilient, 229 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:00,139 engineering. Right? 230 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,160 Yeah. Yeah. And just to speak to that 231 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:04,600 point, you know, I come from, 232 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:07,400 an area where I've done waterfall for almost 233 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:08,220 twenty years 234 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,920 and have, you know, looked into agile. And 235 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,300 I've seen agile implemented, 236 00:08:13,274 --> 00:08:14,495 lots of times incorrectly. 237 00:08:15,274 --> 00:08:17,995 And and agile is great in theory, and 238 00:08:17,995 --> 00:08:19,214 it's great in certain, 239 00:08:20,475 --> 00:08:20,975 situations. 240 00:08:21,754 --> 00:08:24,074 But when people start utilizing it as an 241 00:08:24,074 --> 00:08:25,535 excuse to not plan 242 00:08:26,634 --> 00:08:27,919 Yeah. Yeah. 243 00:08:29,180 --> 00:08:31,259 It it really falls apart. It's like, well, 244 00:08:31,259 --> 00:08:32,960 we're just gonna do this the agile way, 245 00:08:33,179 --> 00:08:34,700 and that way we don't have to hold 246 00:08:34,700 --> 00:08:36,240 anyone accountable to deadlines 247 00:08:36,940 --> 00:08:38,559 or planning or thought. 248 00:08:39,495 --> 00:08:41,815 Well, no. That's incorrect. You need to have 249 00:08:41,815 --> 00:08:42,794 agile somehow 250 00:08:43,414 --> 00:08:46,235 structured underneath the umbrella of a waterfall project 251 00:08:46,855 --> 00:08:48,615 and actually have some sort of rings on 252 00:08:48,615 --> 00:08:50,535 this project to actually keep it going and 253 00:08:50,535 --> 00:08:51,595 keep it under control. 254 00:08:51,980 --> 00:08:53,580 To have certain parts of your project where, 255 00:08:53,580 --> 00:08:54,860 yes, this is gonna have to be an 256 00:08:54,860 --> 00:08:56,700 iterations because we don't exactly know how to 257 00:08:56,700 --> 00:08:58,700 do it yet. Sure. Put agile in that 258 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:00,940 spot, but don't just go to agile because 259 00:09:00,940 --> 00:09:01,680 of laziness. 260 00:09:02,139 --> 00:09:02,639 Mhmm. 261 00:09:03,100 --> 00:09:03,600 Yeah. 262 00:09:04,074 --> 00:09:05,914 I think the other place this shows up 263 00:09:05,914 --> 00:09:07,834 all the time, and I've been talking about 264 00:09:07,834 --> 00:09:08,975 this a lot recently, 265 00:09:09,674 --> 00:09:12,574 just because I run into it constantly now, 266 00:09:13,034 --> 00:09:14,634 is I'll use the example of a car 267 00:09:14,634 --> 00:09:16,475 manufacturer. And if you've heard me, you can 268 00:09:16,475 --> 00:09:18,235 just ignore me because I say this all 269 00:09:18,235 --> 00:09:18,990 the time now. 270 00:09:20,029 --> 00:09:21,970 If you take a given car manufacturer, 271 00:09:22,830 --> 00:09:24,909 there was a time when every car model 272 00:09:24,909 --> 00:09:25,570 was unique, 273 00:09:26,589 --> 00:09:28,690 but you take a current car manufacturer. 274 00:09:29,389 --> 00:09:30,929 They have three platforms, 275 00:09:32,625 --> 00:09:34,084 three or four blocks 276 00:09:34,705 --> 00:09:35,684 for their engines 277 00:09:36,304 --> 00:09:39,345 that are compressed to different ratios, and maybe 278 00:09:39,345 --> 00:09:41,105 one is blown out a little bit. You 279 00:09:41,105 --> 00:09:43,184 know, it's a little bit larger cylinder size 280 00:09:43,184 --> 00:09:45,284 or longer stroke or whatever. 281 00:09:45,664 --> 00:09:46,884 And then they'll throw 282 00:09:47,289 --> 00:09:48,669 they'll throw a turbocharger 283 00:09:48,970 --> 00:09:51,629 on it, you know, or they'll retime it. 284 00:09:51,850 --> 00:09:53,850 But they only have basically two or three 285 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:54,350 engines. 286 00:09:54,649 --> 00:09:56,649 And they have two or three, what they 287 00:09:56,649 --> 00:09:59,149 call chassis, which is gonna be wheelbase, 288 00:09:59,855 --> 00:10:01,455 things like that. You know, you have a 289 00:10:01,455 --> 00:10:03,934 certain drive train and all the components are 290 00:10:03,934 --> 00:10:05,154 certain lengths and stuff. 291 00:10:05,695 --> 00:10:06,434 And then 292 00:10:06,894 --> 00:10:08,975 above all that, you throw all sorts of 293 00:10:08,975 --> 00:10:10,434 weird sheet metal on it 294 00:10:10,894 --> 00:10:13,600 and all sorts of weird features. Right? Oh, 295 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:15,279 I throw this sheet metal on it, and 296 00:10:15,279 --> 00:10:17,679 it's an SUV. I throw that sheet metal 297 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:19,840 on it, and guess what? It's a station 298 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,320 wagon. And then I throw that sheet metal 299 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,419 on it, and it's a sports car. 300 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,559 And it's not that that's wrong. It's that 301 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:27,540 it's brilliant. 302 00:10:28,835 --> 00:10:29,815 It's brilliant. 303 00:10:30,514 --> 00:10:33,555 It separates the complexity of making the car 304 00:10:33,555 --> 00:10:34,055 go 305 00:10:34,514 --> 00:10:36,215 from the complexity of 306 00:10:36,595 --> 00:10:38,134 catering to the market. 307 00:10:38,754 --> 00:10:40,774 Networks. We don't do that network engineering. 308 00:10:41,289 --> 00:10:42,750 We we don't even like 309 00:10:43,129 --> 00:10:45,070 we're nowhere near that at all. 310 00:10:45,529 --> 00:10:47,149 So I don't know. 311 00:10:48,490 --> 00:10:49,629 I think that's very 312 00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:51,549 that's very true. 313 00:10:53,129 --> 00:10:55,289 What I've noticed is that over time I 314 00:10:55,289 --> 00:10:57,315 mean and and, you know, as the technology 315 00:10:57,455 --> 00:11:00,414 has improved over time, you try to build 316 00:11:00,414 --> 00:11:02,495 towards that. But there's so many snowflake 317 00:11:03,375 --> 00:11:04,815 like, think about I mean, think about the 318 00:11:04,815 --> 00:11:07,054 underlying thing that network is supporting, like, you 319 00:11:07,054 --> 00:11:08,115 know, different locations, 320 00:11:08,495 --> 00:11:08,995 different 321 00:11:10,039 --> 00:11:12,440 It's very hard, I think, actually, until the 322 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:13,980 businesses themselves become 323 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,759 some modicum of of cookie cutter to some 324 00:11:16,759 --> 00:11:19,399 degree to to build the network that supports 325 00:11:19,399 --> 00:11:22,379 that business that would be similarly modular. 326 00:11:23,134 --> 00:11:25,955 Well, we we overblow certain platforms. BGP. 327 00:11:26,894 --> 00:11:30,595 Right? Like, please stop adding features to BGP. 328 00:11:30,654 --> 00:11:31,554 Just stop. 329 00:11:31,855 --> 00:11:33,535 If you're out there and you're thinking about 330 00:11:33,535 --> 00:11:34,355 adding a BGP 331 00:11:35,070 --> 00:11:37,889 feature, don't do it. Just stop. Address family. 332 00:11:38,110 --> 00:11:39,490 Yeah. Please stop. 333 00:11:40,190 --> 00:11:42,190 But then we totally ignore other things. So, 334 00:11:42,190 --> 00:11:45,389 like, again, car manufacturers have three platforms they 335 00:11:45,389 --> 00:11:48,269 use. Right? Mhmm. Well, we have IGPs. We 336 00:11:48,269 --> 00:11:49,009 have EGPs. 337 00:11:50,024 --> 00:11:51,304 But we just use them all the same. 338 00:11:51,304 --> 00:11:52,684 We munch everything together. 339 00:11:53,704 --> 00:11:54,524 And really, 340 00:11:55,625 --> 00:11:57,485 there should be an IGP platform. 341 00:11:58,424 --> 00:12:00,204 There should be an e b e EGP 342 00:12:00,345 --> 00:12:00,845 platform. 343 00:12:01,384 --> 00:12:03,304 There should be there should be platforms and 344 00:12:03,304 --> 00:12:05,004 we and there may be more of them. 345 00:12:05,660 --> 00:12:07,980 But I don't know. Jonathan, does this speak 346 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:09,500 a little bit to what you're talking about 347 00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:10,559 in terms of planning 348 00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:13,820 as well? Think so. Yeah. Absolutely. Because, you 349 00:12:13,820 --> 00:12:16,080 know, back to your point, the car manufacturer. 350 00:12:16,860 --> 00:12:18,700 Just an example. This is a real world 351 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:19,200 example. 352 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:21,040 My Dodge truck, 353 00:12:21,605 --> 00:12:23,924 the window switches in it are the exact 354 00:12:23,924 --> 00:12:25,625 same as are in a Maserati. 355 00:12:27,125 --> 00:12:29,044 They're purchased from the exact same third party 356 00:12:29,044 --> 00:12:29,544 vendor. 357 00:12:31,365 --> 00:12:33,544 Fiat Chrysler did not do that on accident. 358 00:12:33,870 --> 00:12:35,490 They did that on purpose. 359 00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:36,370 Mhmm. 360 00:12:36,909 --> 00:12:38,929 There is a reason they do that because 361 00:12:39,950 --> 00:12:41,490 the auto manufacturing 362 00:12:42,990 --> 00:12:44,769 industry is so capital intensive. 363 00:12:45,309 --> 00:12:46,664 No one really wants to be in it. 364 00:12:46,745 --> 00:12:48,024 Everybody wants to be in software as a 365 00:12:48,024 --> 00:12:50,684 service, recurring revenue streams, everything else. 366 00:12:51,304 --> 00:12:52,845 Networking is the same way. 367 00:12:53,304 --> 00:12:55,485 If you really look at networking as capital 368 00:12:55,544 --> 00:12:56,044 intensive 369 00:12:56,745 --> 00:12:59,339 Mhmm. For you not to go in and 370 00:12:59,339 --> 00:13:00,699 actually try to shave off some of the 371 00:13:00,699 --> 00:13:02,620 cost by actually doing good planning on the 372 00:13:02,620 --> 00:13:04,639 front end, you're only hurting yourself. 373 00:13:06,139 --> 00:13:08,620 Yep. Yep. Yeah. I agree with that. And 374 00:13:08,620 --> 00:13:11,199 the market is coalescing to some degree, Broadcom 375 00:13:11,259 --> 00:13:14,454 chipsets, no Marvell chipsets, whatever they are, So 376 00:13:14,454 --> 00:13:16,534 that we're starting to get kind of this 377 00:13:16,534 --> 00:13:18,154 platform stuff in there, 378 00:13:18,855 --> 00:13:19,834 but it's unintentional, 379 00:13:20,214 --> 00:13:22,534 and in some ways, it can be less 380 00:13:22,534 --> 00:13:24,714 than ideal, where the market settles. 381 00:13:26,375 --> 00:13:28,315 So that's another entire 382 00:13:29,290 --> 00:13:32,170 realm of thinking about how this works. But 383 00:13:32,170 --> 00:13:33,610 going back to planning, I mean, I I 384 00:13:33,610 --> 00:13:35,610 know that the pushback on the idea that 385 00:13:35,610 --> 00:13:37,529 we need to do more planning is going 386 00:13:37,529 --> 00:13:38,190 to be, 387 00:13:38,730 --> 00:13:39,470 you can't 388 00:13:39,850 --> 00:13:42,730 plan because you can never gather all the 389 00:13:42,730 --> 00:13:44,269 required all the requirements, 390 00:13:45,404 --> 00:13:47,264 and you're gonna get so many changes 391 00:13:47,725 --> 00:13:48,705 that you can't 392 00:13:49,565 --> 00:13:50,924 you just can't get them all in there. 393 00:13:50,924 --> 00:13:52,304 That's the problem with the waterfall. 394 00:13:52,845 --> 00:13:54,764 So, Jonathan, in the real world, do you 395 00:13:54,764 --> 00:13:56,945 see people who just get trapped in the 396 00:13:57,350 --> 00:14:00,570 I'm gathering requirements phase forever and forever because 397 00:14:00,870 --> 00:14:01,370 it 398 00:14:01,750 --> 00:14:04,389 the requirements are changing faster than you can 399 00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:05,129 gather them? 400 00:14:07,910 --> 00:14:10,149 Yes and no, but probably mostly no. And 401 00:14:10,149 --> 00:14:12,164 I will say this, most of us know, 402 00:14:12,164 --> 00:14:13,865 know, especially that have some experience, 403 00:14:14,404 --> 00:14:15,144 in our 404 00:14:15,445 --> 00:14:18,004 respective industries, whatever that are, is we already 405 00:14:18,004 --> 00:14:19,605 know the complaints that are gonna come down 406 00:14:19,605 --> 00:14:21,524 the pike. We already know the people that 407 00:14:21,524 --> 00:14:23,284 are going to, after the fact and after 408 00:14:23,284 --> 00:14:24,884 the project has been done, is gonna come 409 00:14:24,884 --> 00:14:26,404 back and ask for something else. So we 410 00:14:26,404 --> 00:14:27,929 know what something else is going to be, 411 00:14:28,409 --> 00:14:30,570 and we even budget for that. So for 412 00:14:30,570 --> 00:14:31,629 us to say that 413 00:14:32,009 --> 00:14:33,230 it's gonna be a completely 414 00:14:34,009 --> 00:14:36,250 iterative process, we have no idea up front 415 00:14:36,250 --> 00:14:38,110 whatever to plan for is ridiculous. 416 00:14:38,649 --> 00:14:40,330 We know exactly what to plan for for 417 00:14:40,330 --> 00:14:42,335 at least probably 85% 418 00:14:42,335 --> 00:14:43,875 of the things we're gonna run into. 419 00:14:44,575 --> 00:14:46,335 Let's start planning for it instead of just 420 00:14:46,335 --> 00:14:47,794 saying agile all the way. 421 00:14:48,894 --> 00:14:49,394 Yeah. 422 00:14:50,095 --> 00:14:51,534 I agree with that. I actually like what 423 00:14:51,534 --> 00:14:52,674 you're saying about the, 424 00:14:53,934 --> 00:14:54,754 make agile 425 00:14:55,134 --> 00:14:56,434 be more of a 426 00:14:57,269 --> 00:14:59,909 directed thing. Like, you know, use it for 427 00:14:59,909 --> 00:15:01,750 this thing where we need to prototype something 428 00:15:01,750 --> 00:15:03,110 because we haven't done it before and we 429 00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:05,190 don't know what it's gonna be. And then 430 00:15:05,190 --> 00:15:07,509 use kind of that more plan plan model 431 00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:08,649 for the pieces that 432 00:15:09,035 --> 00:15:10,475 we know are 85% 433 00:15:10,475 --> 00:15:13,355 the same. Right? Yeah. Because your the amount 434 00:15:13,355 --> 00:15:15,514 of time it takes to actually implement is 435 00:15:15,514 --> 00:15:17,514 gonna expand to the amount of time that 436 00:15:17,514 --> 00:15:18,335 you give it. 437 00:15:18,795 --> 00:15:20,575 If you actually put hard stops, 438 00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:24,539 you can get there faster and get there 439 00:15:24,539 --> 00:15:25,440 more effectively, 440 00:15:26,220 --> 00:15:29,500 and that takes planning. And planning is not 441 00:15:29,500 --> 00:15:32,139 a time sink. Planning is a time savings 442 00:15:32,139 --> 00:15:33,279 if done properly 443 00:15:33,899 --> 00:15:35,360 and directed properly. 444 00:15:37,164 --> 00:15:38,845 Yeah. And I think we I see that 445 00:15:38,845 --> 00:15:40,684 all the time in the world today. I 446 00:15:40,684 --> 00:15:42,304 see tons and tons of people, 447 00:15:42,684 --> 00:15:44,365 tons and tons of projects where people are 448 00:15:44,365 --> 00:15:44,865 saying, 449 00:15:45,245 --> 00:15:47,164 we don't need to think about five years 450 00:15:47,164 --> 00:15:47,904 from now. 451 00:15:48,445 --> 00:15:50,039 Just get the product out, 452 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,240 get the product making money, get revenue on 453 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:53,740 it, 454 00:15:54,199 --> 00:15:56,679 and then we'll figure out where it breaks, 455 00:15:56,679 --> 00:15:58,360 and then we'll figure out how to fix 456 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,399 it. It's all software. It's so easy to 457 00:16:01,399 --> 00:16:02,539 fix in the future. 458 00:16:03,964 --> 00:16:04,784 And it's 459 00:16:05,884 --> 00:16:07,404 It is lazy. I like the word I 460 00:16:07,404 --> 00:16:09,004 like the word you use, Jonathan. When you 461 00:16:09,004 --> 00:16:09,824 said lazy. 462 00:16:11,084 --> 00:16:11,884 It is and and to the point when 463 00:16:11,884 --> 00:16:13,245 I say that I understand you need to 464 00:16:13,245 --> 00:16:15,324 get revenue in the door. I absolutely get 465 00:16:15,324 --> 00:16:15,824 it. 466 00:16:16,524 --> 00:16:17,024 But 467 00:16:18,529 --> 00:16:19,269 there is 468 00:16:19,730 --> 00:16:21,570 a and, yes, sometimes you do have to 469 00:16:21,570 --> 00:16:23,410 do that. You you have to force production. 470 00:16:23,410 --> 00:16:25,509 I get it. But there is also 471 00:16:25,970 --> 00:16:26,470 the 472 00:16:27,090 --> 00:16:29,009 when you do that, you know you're lying 473 00:16:29,009 --> 00:16:29,669 to yourself. 474 00:16:29,970 --> 00:16:31,410 You know you're not gonna go back and 475 00:16:31,410 --> 00:16:32,790 fix it. Oh, yeah. 476 00:16:33,235 --> 00:16:35,554 Ahead of time before stuff breaks. You know 477 00:16:35,554 --> 00:16:36,995 that you're not gonna go back and and 478 00:16:36,995 --> 00:16:37,735 be proactive 479 00:16:38,035 --> 00:16:40,035 towards maintaining it. You're gonna move on to 480 00:16:40,035 --> 00:16:41,014 the next fire. 481 00:16:42,514 --> 00:16:44,195 I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. 482 00:16:44,195 --> 00:16:46,054 Go ahead. Go ahead. But I just 483 00:16:46,569 --> 00:16:48,250 I mean, what we're talking really is is 484 00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:51,289 what the more you develop and then get 485 00:16:51,289 --> 00:16:52,990 revenue for a for an, 486 00:16:53,929 --> 00:16:56,970 for whatever the software, you're you're, you know, 487 00:16:56,970 --> 00:16:59,149 getting stepping on the rake of the innovator's 488 00:16:59,209 --> 00:17:02,154 dilemma as well. Like, you know, if immediately, 489 00:17:02,294 --> 00:17:04,134 I've got this. My customers are not paying 490 00:17:04,134 --> 00:17:06,134 me. They expect this thing to work. They 491 00:17:06,134 --> 00:17:07,894 expect their features to be prioritized. You know 492 00:17:07,894 --> 00:17:09,654 what I'm talking about. Right? Like, you're stepping 493 00:17:09,654 --> 00:17:11,414 on the rake. Innovator's dilemma right in the 494 00:17:11,414 --> 00:17:13,255 face as soon as you start accepting revenue 495 00:17:13,255 --> 00:17:14,875 for what you want are trying to build. 496 00:17:15,335 --> 00:17:15,779 Yep. 497 00:17:16,259 --> 00:17:18,099 And and I think and right, Jonathan. We 498 00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:19,720 never go back and fix anything. 499 00:17:20,259 --> 00:17:22,740 It's a joke. Honestly, it's a joke. We 500 00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:25,080 just let tech debt pile up. 501 00:17:25,859 --> 00:17:28,420 We throw it's like it's like sometimes I 502 00:17:28,420 --> 00:17:29,859 feel like we're a bunch of kids with 503 00:17:29,859 --> 00:17:32,134 erector sets. Like, we just go, oh, I'm 504 00:17:32,134 --> 00:17:34,315 gonna build a bridge. Okay. Great. 505 00:17:34,694 --> 00:17:37,095 Let's just throw stuff together and make a 506 00:17:37,095 --> 00:17:37,595 bridge. 507 00:17:37,974 --> 00:17:39,815 Oh, by the way, I want the bridge 508 00:17:39,815 --> 00:17:40,875 to be two lanes. 509 00:17:41,654 --> 00:17:43,015 Oh, I didn't think of that when I 510 00:17:43,015 --> 00:17:44,615 first built the bridge. So now I'm gonna 511 00:17:44,615 --> 00:17:46,670 make a two lane bridge by throwing this 512 00:17:46,670 --> 00:17:49,309 other nonsense on there. And, like, is that 513 00:17:49,309 --> 00:17:51,150 gonna support the wait? I don't know. We'll 514 00:17:51,150 --> 00:17:53,089 try it. We'll drive a car across it. 515 00:17:53,150 --> 00:17:54,690 Let's see. No. 516 00:17:55,230 --> 00:17:56,369 What are you doing? 517 00:17:56,670 --> 00:17:59,950 Like, it's just mounds and mounds and mounds 518 00:17:59,950 --> 00:18:00,930 of tech debt, 519 00:18:01,234 --> 00:18:03,394 And we just don't even start to think 520 00:18:03,394 --> 00:18:05,634 about it, the risk levels. And go back 521 00:18:05,634 --> 00:18:08,275 to the risk assessment question. We don't even 522 00:18:08,275 --> 00:18:10,275 think about the risk levels of what we're 523 00:18:10,275 --> 00:18:10,775 producing. 524 00:18:11,795 --> 00:18:13,815 And, like, I I don't like anyway, 525 00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:15,900 you can tell I get I get really 526 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:17,839 frustrated at this. This is like 527 00:18:18,299 --> 00:18:19,519 a a thing with me. 528 00:18:19,980 --> 00:18:21,819 More than band aids than Johnson and Johnson. 529 00:18:21,819 --> 00:18:23,359 I I get it. It's just 530 00:18:23,819 --> 00:18:26,299 cobbled together. But, you know, we don't when 531 00:18:26,299 --> 00:18:27,900 we go into a project, we should say, 532 00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:28,400 hey. 533 00:18:28,914 --> 00:18:30,355 This is something that we're gonna have to 534 00:18:30,355 --> 00:18:32,115 expand and build upon. We need it to 535 00:18:32,115 --> 00:18:34,134 be robust enough that we can do that. 536 00:18:34,275 --> 00:18:35,954 We want it to be robust enough that 537 00:18:35,954 --> 00:18:37,815 this is going to be the main platform 538 00:18:37,875 --> 00:18:39,634 framework we're gonna utilize for the next five 539 00:18:39,634 --> 00:18:40,134 years. 540 00:18:40,515 --> 00:18:42,914 Let's start planning from that end and build 541 00:18:42,914 --> 00:18:43,815 it out correctly. 542 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,160 Yeah. And even if even if we don't 543 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,000 know what that use looks like in five 544 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:49,500 years, 545 00:18:50,519 --> 00:18:51,019 again, 546 00:18:51,799 --> 00:18:53,799 the reason BGP has had all this stuff 547 00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:55,400 added to it, and the reason that ISI 548 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,944 is frankly, I might may may be make 549 00:18:58,024 --> 00:19:00,444 people a little bit cranky about this, but 550 00:19:00,585 --> 00:19:03,865 the reason ISIS succeeds more than OSPF does 551 00:19:03,865 --> 00:19:04,924 in the real world 552 00:19:05,304 --> 00:19:07,644 is because they are platforms. They are flexible 553 00:19:07,865 --> 00:19:08,365 platforms 554 00:19:09,065 --> 00:19:10,924 that will do lots of things. 555 00:19:11,349 --> 00:19:13,990 And they were just yeah. They were designed 556 00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:15,789 to be that way. Yeah. I know that. 557 00:19:15,789 --> 00:19:17,049 And that's Exactly. 558 00:19:17,829 --> 00:19:19,769 Yeah. Making them extensible 559 00:19:20,230 --> 00:19:23,349 was why people have continued to tack things 560 00:19:23,349 --> 00:19:25,589 onto it. Yes. It's because they became yeah. 561 00:19:25,589 --> 00:19:27,575 You totally nailed it. Yeah. 562 00:19:29,075 --> 00:19:30,674 So, yeah, I I I didn't mean to 563 00:19:30,674 --> 00:19:32,674 jump in there, Jonathan, but that's that's, I 564 00:19:32,674 --> 00:19:33,174 think, 565 00:19:34,194 --> 00:19:36,355 your future planning idea, and that's we just 566 00:19:36,355 --> 00:19:38,674 don't do that very well. We build everything 567 00:19:38,674 --> 00:19:41,335 as a closed loop, and I don't know. 568 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,180 Yeah. Look at JavaScript. 569 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,220 We're trying not to. Yes. We're trying not 570 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:50,140 to. Exactly. 571 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,519 We we live with the evidence of this 572 00:19:52,519 --> 00:19:54,599 every day. And, you know, we still do 573 00:19:54,599 --> 00:19:56,174 it. So, you know, you know, you know, 574 00:19:56,174 --> 00:19:57,774 there we go. Yeah. It's why it's why 575 00:19:57,774 --> 00:19:59,774 a lot of our customer facing systems right 576 00:19:59,774 --> 00:20:00,835 now are so fragile. 577 00:20:01,294 --> 00:20:02,974 People complain about it all the time, but 578 00:20:02,974 --> 00:20:03,794 that's why. 579 00:20:04,255 --> 00:20:06,194 Why is my banking app so fragile? 580 00:20:06,894 --> 00:20:10,089 Java, Java beans. Need I say more? Like, 581 00:20:10,089 --> 00:20:10,589 what 582 00:20:10,970 --> 00:20:11,869 do you expect 583 00:20:14,409 --> 00:20:16,250 once, once you've done this? Like, I don't 584 00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:17,389 know what you expect. 585 00:20:19,210 --> 00:20:19,710 Yeah. 586 00:20:20,250 --> 00:20:22,809 And you know, no risk management, no risk 587 00:20:22,809 --> 00:20:23,309 analysis. 588 00:20:23,929 --> 00:20:25,389 No. How could it fail? 589 00:20:26,075 --> 00:20:28,174 No. Why would it fail that way? No. 590 00:20:28,555 --> 00:20:30,555 How is it gonna look if it fails 591 00:20:30,555 --> 00:20:31,295 that way? 592 00:20:31,755 --> 00:20:32,255 Nothing. 593 00:20:32,954 --> 00:20:35,035 Just let's go build it and and have 594 00:20:35,035 --> 00:20:37,134 that. It's it's a little maddening. 595 00:20:37,609 --> 00:20:39,210 It's funny to hear you talk about this, 596 00:20:39,210 --> 00:20:40,970 Russ, because I know we're talking about software, 597 00:20:40,970 --> 00:20:42,430 but I immediately think of 598 00:20:43,049 --> 00:20:44,970 the fact that when you're building networks, this 599 00:20:44,970 --> 00:20:47,289 is almost always the case. Nobody you you 600 00:20:47,289 --> 00:20:50,009 don't very very few enterprises have it. Like, 601 00:20:50,009 --> 00:20:51,345 let's build it in a lab and test 602 00:20:52,144 --> 00:20:54,544 network and put applications on. That never happens. 603 00:20:54,544 --> 00:20:56,085 Right? We always test in production. 604 00:20:56,704 --> 00:20:58,944 No. It's always it's always we have a 605 00:20:58,944 --> 00:21:00,304 new site to bring up. We're the two 606 00:21:00,304 --> 00:21:02,625 closest sites. Let's throw some links out to 607 00:21:02,625 --> 00:21:04,900 those sites. We'll make them on queues. And 608 00:21:04,900 --> 00:21:07,720 what for right now, it'll be enough. Mhmm. 609 00:21:07,940 --> 00:21:09,000 Like, what? 610 00:21:10,259 --> 00:21:11,700 That's how you end up with the Snowflake 611 00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:14,039 Netwisher you're talking about where there's no standardization. 612 00:21:14,339 --> 00:21:15,720 Right? Is it just kinda 613 00:21:16,259 --> 00:21:17,000 over time 614 00:21:17,460 --> 00:21:19,319 Yeah. It becomes a disaster. 615 00:21:20,644 --> 00:21:22,565 So I don't know, Jonathan. Maybe we've gone 616 00:21:22,644 --> 00:21:24,325 wandered too far off the topic. I have 617 00:21:24,325 --> 00:21:25,625 no idea. But 618 00:21:26,164 --> 00:21:26,664 so 619 00:21:27,204 --> 00:21:29,784 from your perspective, when you read these Fortran 620 00:21:29,845 --> 00:21:31,365 manuals and you look at this, which is 621 00:21:31,365 --> 00:21:33,065 a very neat idea, by the way. 622 00:21:33,365 --> 00:21:35,464 I love going back and reading old engineering 623 00:21:35,524 --> 00:21:37,539 books. I go back and find engineering books 624 00:21:37,539 --> 00:21:40,359 from the early nineteen hundreds on mechanical and 625 00:21:40,419 --> 00:21:41,319 and other engineering. 626 00:21:41,779 --> 00:21:43,940 Because just the way they approach problems is 627 00:21:43,940 --> 00:21:46,200 just so different than what we do today. 628 00:21:46,659 --> 00:21:48,839 And they built big things. 629 00:21:49,379 --> 00:21:51,000 I'm always astounded. So 630 00:21:51,384 --> 00:21:53,065 I do a little bit of millwork. I, 631 00:21:53,065 --> 00:21:54,904 I actually used to have a mill and 632 00:21:54,904 --> 00:21:57,384 I'm going to buy another metal mill here 633 00:21:57,384 --> 00:21:59,304 in the next two years. I hope, and 634 00:21:59,304 --> 00:22:01,384 go back to doing metal work and I 635 00:22:01,384 --> 00:22:03,970 build furniture and stuff like that. I know 636 00:22:03,970 --> 00:22:05,649 people think this is crazy. Like I do 637 00:22:05,649 --> 00:22:06,389 mill work 638 00:22:06,690 --> 00:22:07,669 anyway, whatever. 639 00:22:08,929 --> 00:22:09,429 And 640 00:22:09,970 --> 00:22:11,589 we built the space shuttle 641 00:22:12,609 --> 00:22:14,789 without glass scales on mills. 642 00:22:16,609 --> 00:22:17,384 Like that is, 643 00:22:17,945 --> 00:22:19,085 that is crazy. 644 00:22:19,384 --> 00:22:21,724 There was no way on those mills 645 00:22:22,184 --> 00:22:23,865 to, I mean, you had to know the 646 00:22:23,865 --> 00:22:24,365 backlash 647 00:22:24,664 --> 00:22:27,164 on the knob turns. You had to know 648 00:22:27,545 --> 00:22:29,565 what a thousandth felt like. 649 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,240 Yes. And we we did that. We built 650 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:34,940 things to thousands tolerance 651 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,519 based on people knowing what a thousandth feels 652 00:22:38,519 --> 00:22:39,019 like 653 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:40,299 on a scale. 654 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,059 No real time measurement. 655 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,894 Like, there's something to that. 656 00:22:47,315 --> 00:22:49,154 Yeah. There definitely is. And and to your 657 00:22:49,154 --> 00:22:51,234 point, the the older the book, the the 658 00:22:51,234 --> 00:22:52,835 better it is most often. You know, I 659 00:22:52,835 --> 00:22:53,335 remember 660 00:22:53,794 --> 00:22:55,315 in some of the graduate studies I was 661 00:22:55,315 --> 00:22:58,535 doing on, aerodynamics and boundary layer theory, 662 00:22:59,500 --> 00:23:01,180 Some of the Germans that wrote about that 663 00:23:01,180 --> 00:23:01,920 in the fifties, 664 00:23:03,420 --> 00:23:05,119 and their heat transfer and thermodynamics 665 00:23:05,579 --> 00:23:07,279 understanding was just fascinating. 666 00:23:09,180 --> 00:23:10,319 An old heat transfer 667 00:23:10,619 --> 00:23:12,539 book back in the sixties, I think, was, 668 00:23:12,779 --> 00:23:13,279 by 669 00:23:14,474 --> 00:23:16,095 a doctor White, I believe. 670 00:23:16,875 --> 00:23:19,035 Excellent textbook. Far and above better than any 671 00:23:19,035 --> 00:23:21,535 textbook probably out in, universities today. 672 00:23:22,474 --> 00:23:26,335 Their understanding was concise, direct, and very readable. 673 00:23:27,115 --> 00:23:27,615 And 674 00:23:28,839 --> 00:23:30,839 and it it's it's really is amazing. But 675 00:23:30,839 --> 00:23:33,259 they they fully understood the problem. 676 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:35,880 I mean, because I think they sat with 677 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,740 it for so long without solutions. 678 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,059 And I think they had a a greater 679 00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:42,519 appreciation for the solution when it came about, 680 00:23:42,519 --> 00:23:44,495 when they're able to get it, and they 681 00:23:44,495 --> 00:23:46,975 explained it more thoroughly and sit with it. 682 00:23:46,975 --> 00:23:48,735 Today, I don't think we do that. I 683 00:23:48,735 --> 00:23:50,174 don't think we have an appreciation for the 684 00:23:50,174 --> 00:23:52,174 problems that we have because we believe we 685 00:23:52,174 --> 00:23:54,095 really had the solution. I mean, just take, 686 00:23:54,095 --> 00:23:55,775 for instance, the 600 simple as I need 687 00:23:55,775 --> 00:23:57,339 to sit down and write an article. We 688 00:23:57,339 --> 00:23:59,899 appreciate nothing about the writing process. We appreciate 689 00:23:59,899 --> 00:24:01,659 nothing about the words we choose. We appreciate 690 00:24:01,659 --> 00:24:03,819 nothing about the thesaurus because we have the 691 00:24:03,819 --> 00:24:05,339 AI genie inside of our, 692 00:24:05,980 --> 00:24:07,500 hard drive that's just gonna make it all 693 00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:09,019 go away and make it easy for us 694 00:24:09,019 --> 00:24:10,299 when we move on to the next task. 695 00:24:10,299 --> 00:24:12,159 We have no appreciation for what we're doing. 696 00:24:12,445 --> 00:24:13,965 And that shows up in our work, and 697 00:24:13,965 --> 00:24:15,484 it shows up in the longevity of our 698 00:24:15,484 --> 00:24:18,525 work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And writing is also 699 00:24:18,525 --> 00:24:20,945 really bad. Yes. Writing is a perfect example. 700 00:24:21,644 --> 00:24:23,644 People don't take care of your writing anymore. 701 00:24:23,644 --> 00:24:24,930 They don't learn to write. 702 00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:26,070 They just 703 00:24:26,450 --> 00:24:28,369 well, the AI said to write it this 704 00:24:28,369 --> 00:24:29,350 way. I'm done. 705 00:24:29,809 --> 00:24:32,529 Yeah. No. Fast productivity is not the solution 706 00:24:32,529 --> 00:24:34,690 to this. There was a oh, sorry. Go 707 00:24:34,690 --> 00:24:35,190 ahead. 708 00:24:36,049 --> 00:24:37,734 You know, to that point, I I listened 709 00:24:37,734 --> 00:24:39,934 to somebody say that they're actually having large 710 00:24:39,934 --> 00:24:41,934 problems with this in the humanities and arts 711 00:24:41,934 --> 00:24:44,575 classes, even in the, large Ivy League universities, 712 00:24:44,575 --> 00:24:46,355 and they don't know how to tackle it. 713 00:24:46,575 --> 00:24:48,174 And this one professor I was watching, he 714 00:24:48,174 --> 00:24:50,194 said, we need to bring back the entire 715 00:24:50,494 --> 00:24:52,115 concept of teaching rhetoric. 716 00:24:52,650 --> 00:24:54,590 And I thought, well, wouldn't that be insightful? 717 00:24:54,730 --> 00:24:57,150 You know, actually having to convey an argument 718 00:24:57,369 --> 00:24:58,430 and defend it. 719 00:24:58,730 --> 00:24:59,230 And 720 00:24:59,769 --> 00:25:01,850 what better way to actually get people to 721 00:25:01,850 --> 00:25:02,590 write better? 722 00:25:02,970 --> 00:25:05,369 But lots of them are just Yeah. Just 723 00:25:05,369 --> 00:25:07,369 gonna embrace AI. And I I I can't 724 00:25:07,619 --> 00:25:09,664 I I understand it's coming. It's gonna stay 725 00:25:09,664 --> 00:25:10,785 with us, and you can't put the genie 726 00:25:10,785 --> 00:25:12,644 back in the bottle, and that's okay. But 727 00:25:12,705 --> 00:25:15,744 to have an entire generation of students graduate 728 00:25:15,744 --> 00:25:17,365 with no ability to 729 00:25:17,825 --> 00:25:19,045 understand an argument 730 00:25:19,424 --> 00:25:21,765 or a clause or anything. Make one. Yeah. 731 00:25:21,825 --> 00:25:23,470 Or make one is 732 00:25:23,769 --> 00:25:25,930 how are they going to communicate with each 733 00:25:25,930 --> 00:25:26,990 other in new commerce? 734 00:25:28,170 --> 00:25:29,849 Yeah. I mean, or just or solve a 735 00:25:29,849 --> 00:25:30,349 problem. 736 00:25:30,650 --> 00:25:32,269 The number of times I mean, 737 00:25:32,650 --> 00:25:35,130 again, philosophy degree. Right? You know? The number 738 00:25:35,130 --> 00:25:36,650 of times I approach a problem and I 739 00:25:36,650 --> 00:25:38,589 think if I can just build a sillism 740 00:25:39,585 --> 00:25:41,025 out of this, if I can just build 741 00:25:41,025 --> 00:25:42,724 a logical flow of argument, 742 00:25:43,585 --> 00:25:44,325 and yet 743 00:25:45,025 --> 00:25:46,944 I approach other people with that logic, and 744 00:25:46,944 --> 00:25:49,184 they're like, what what is this format you 745 00:25:49,184 --> 00:25:49,924 have here? 746 00:25:50,304 --> 00:25:52,484 Like, what is what is that you're doing? 747 00:25:53,609 --> 00:25:55,549 Why why should that be that way? 748 00:25:56,089 --> 00:25:58,029 Because this is the way you make arguments. 749 00:25:59,130 --> 00:26:00,349 It's funny. Yeah. 750 00:26:01,529 --> 00:26:02,170 I just, 751 00:26:02,569 --> 00:26:05,529 recently within the last, six months or so 752 00:26:05,529 --> 00:26:07,549 at the, job that I'm, 753 00:26:08,009 --> 00:26:08,744 actually leaving, 754 00:26:10,265 --> 00:26:13,065 but they pushed to do, like, x number 755 00:26:13,065 --> 00:26:14,505 of blogs per week. Like, that was the 756 00:26:14,505 --> 00:26:16,105 metric that they wanted. And I'm I'm a 757 00:26:16,105 --> 00:26:17,785 TME, so they wanted they wanted a bunch 758 00:26:17,785 --> 00:26:18,444 of blogs. 759 00:26:19,384 --> 00:26:21,144 Not gonna speak to whether I agree with 760 00:26:21,144 --> 00:26:23,065 that or not as a as a method 761 00:26:23,065 --> 00:26:25,279 of engagement. But the point is it got 762 00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:26,079 to the point where I was like, you 763 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:27,519 know, if you wanted to sit down and 764 00:26:27,519 --> 00:26:28,339 write a 765 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,359 a useful, thoughtful blog that actually conveyed something 766 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,039 of value, like, you're just not gonna be 767 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:34,740 able to kick it out in the 768 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,200 the the amount that they wanted. So I 769 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,119 was like, alright. Well, I've written a few 770 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,784 books, so I can I know how to 771 00:26:40,784 --> 00:26:42,404 write? So let's just let 772 00:26:42,704 --> 00:26:44,644 AI fill in the blanks for me. And, 773 00:26:46,144 --> 00:26:48,144 after, like, I don't know, four or five 774 00:26:48,144 --> 00:26:49,664 of them had come out, and I was 775 00:26:49,664 --> 00:26:52,065 like, okay. I went back to actually start 776 00:26:52,065 --> 00:26:54,029 writing something, like, writing something 777 00:26:54,330 --> 00:26:56,910 and not not the blog, something completely different. 778 00:26:57,369 --> 00:26:58,650 And I stared at the screen for a 779 00:26:58,650 --> 00:27:01,070 second, and my brain was not responding. 780 00:27:01,609 --> 00:27:03,609 You know? Like, this is a there's the 781 00:27:03,609 --> 00:27:06,194 MIT that recently did the study, with, like, 782 00:27:06,194 --> 00:27:08,275 showing the brain patterns of people who've been 783 00:27:08,275 --> 00:27:09,095 using AI, 784 00:27:09,474 --> 00:27:10,855 and brains are atrophying, 785 00:27:11,315 --> 00:27:13,394 you know, from the skills they're handing over. 786 00:27:13,394 --> 00:27:14,855 It's pretty crazy. It's real. 787 00:27:15,315 --> 00:27:17,474 Well, taking that back to planning, that's part 788 00:27:17,474 --> 00:27:19,875 of the problem. Like you said, Jonathan, people 789 00:27:19,875 --> 00:27:21,095 sit with the problem. 790 00:27:21,660 --> 00:27:23,420 They think about it. They stew over it. 791 00:27:23,420 --> 00:27:25,980 They stand over a water cooler and argue 792 00:27:25,980 --> 00:27:28,460 with people, and they think about, oh, but 793 00:27:28,460 --> 00:27:29,740 if you solve it this way, I do 794 00:27:29,740 --> 00:27:31,660 risk analysis, and I see the trade offs, 795 00:27:31,660 --> 00:27:33,580 and I think about it. We don't think 796 00:27:33,580 --> 00:27:34,480 about it anymore. 797 00:27:35,525 --> 00:27:36,025 Right? 798 00:27:36,484 --> 00:27:38,964 And that's, I think, part of the problem 799 00:27:38,964 --> 00:27:39,704 we're facing. 800 00:27:40,484 --> 00:27:42,724 People complain about the next gen not having 801 00:27:42,724 --> 00:27:44,585 a next generation of network engineers. 802 00:27:45,125 --> 00:27:46,964 Part of the reason that we're struggling with 803 00:27:46,964 --> 00:27:47,865 this is because 804 00:27:48,724 --> 00:27:50,779 you don't have to think about it. You 805 00:27:50,779 --> 00:27:53,039 rack and stack stuff and things just work, 806 00:27:53,419 --> 00:27:55,839 and there's no there's no troubleshooting because, 807 00:27:56,460 --> 00:27:57,359 you know, whatever. 808 00:27:58,059 --> 00:28:00,380 So I don't know. That's I think this 809 00:28:00,380 --> 00:28:02,140 all loops back to the whole planning thing 810 00:28:02,140 --> 00:28:03,440 you're talking about, Jonathan. 811 00:28:04,715 --> 00:28:06,974 Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that, 812 00:28:07,835 --> 00:28:09,275 you know, we're all faced with no matter 813 00:28:09,275 --> 00:28:10,555 what industry we're in is just, you know, 814 00:28:10,555 --> 00:28:12,154 take, for example, all the different languages that 815 00:28:12,154 --> 00:28:13,515 we use and have to communicate with each 816 00:28:13,515 --> 00:28:15,434 other through all the different processes and say, 817 00:28:15,434 --> 00:28:18,234 like, a production facility or a warehouse facility 818 00:28:18,234 --> 00:28:19,375 or what have you. 819 00:28:19,755 --> 00:28:21,340 You know, you may end up having, 820 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:23,820 you know, from your, 821 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:26,700 HVAC systems all the way to your PLCs, 822 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,320 to your IT, to your network, you know, 823 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,019 all these different languages talking. 824 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:31,980 And 825 00:28:34,244 --> 00:28:35,464 they just work now 826 00:28:36,404 --> 00:28:38,105 because we've been able to build 827 00:28:38,724 --> 00:28:39,224 libraries 828 00:28:39,605 --> 00:28:41,704 or patches or something that 829 00:28:42,005 --> 00:28:44,244 some person decided to make so that we 830 00:28:44,244 --> 00:28:46,404 could do this. And when that person goes 831 00:28:46,404 --> 00:28:48,265 away, who's going to maintain it? 832 00:28:49,170 --> 00:28:51,269 That library gets a bug in it. 833 00:28:51,970 --> 00:28:53,190 How do we fix it? 834 00:28:55,009 --> 00:28:56,529 And the amount of people that are out 835 00:28:56,529 --> 00:28:58,289 there who actually know where to even look 836 00:28:58,289 --> 00:29:00,690 for this or to make it better than 837 00:29:00,690 --> 00:29:02,390 what it was or more robust 838 00:29:04,285 --> 00:29:05,424 are are becoming fewer. 839 00:29:05,884 --> 00:29:08,144 And the incentive to do so 840 00:29:08,445 --> 00:29:11,005 is becoming less because what works today, move 841 00:29:11,005 --> 00:29:11,505 on. 842 00:29:12,125 --> 00:29:14,365 Yep. Produce something new because you make more 843 00:29:14,365 --> 00:29:16,384 producing something new. By the way, a great 844 00:29:16,869 --> 00:29:19,609 a great, fantastic book describing this 845 00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:21,769 is called The Soul of a New Machine. 846 00:29:22,309 --> 00:29:23,349 I don't know if you've ever heard of 847 00:29:23,349 --> 00:29:25,349 that book or not. But it's about one 848 00:29:25,349 --> 00:29:26,490 of the early deck 849 00:29:26,869 --> 00:29:27,369 computers. 850 00:29:27,750 --> 00:29:30,789 And basically, they trace the guy, they follow 851 00:29:30,789 --> 00:29:33,345 the guy who's doing nothing but interfaces. 852 00:29:34,684 --> 00:29:36,444 And so all these teams come in, well, 853 00:29:36,444 --> 00:29:37,884 I've got this line card, well, I have 854 00:29:37,884 --> 00:29:40,044 this interface, I have I have this this 855 00:29:40,044 --> 00:29:42,285 hard drive, I have that, I have the 856 00:29:42,285 --> 00:29:45,164 other thing. And this one person who's the 857 00:29:45,164 --> 00:29:45,664 manager 858 00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:48,299 is sitting in his office building interfaces, 859 00:29:48,919 --> 00:29:50,519 and no one knows what he's doing, and 860 00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:52,619 they all think he's doing nothing but managing. 861 00:29:53,399 --> 00:29:54,759 But in the end, they put it all 862 00:29:54,759 --> 00:29:56,140 together, and it works 863 00:29:56,759 --> 00:29:57,259 because 864 00:29:58,119 --> 00:29:58,859 he spent 865 00:30:00,025 --> 00:30:01,085 the whole time 866 00:30:01,625 --> 00:30:04,525 doing nothing but building hardware and software interfaces. 867 00:30:06,105 --> 00:30:06,605 Like, 868 00:30:06,904 --> 00:30:09,704 the importance of that, and that again goes 869 00:30:09,704 --> 00:30:10,605 back to planning. 870 00:30:10,904 --> 00:30:13,005 The more planning you have, the less interfaces 871 00:30:13,144 --> 00:30:16,080 you need, the less the interaction surfaces have 872 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,140 depth and breadth, 873 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:18,580 the more you can constrain 874 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:20,580 the interaction surfaces. 875 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,779 As far as their depth and breadth goes, 876 00:30:24,559 --> 00:30:27,039 the easier it is to build components around 877 00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:29,625 that, and the easier it is to remove 878 00:30:29,625 --> 00:30:30,845 and eliminate tech 879 00:30:31,384 --> 00:30:33,944 debt. That just is, like, so obvious to 880 00:30:33,944 --> 00:30:35,464 me looking at it from the outside of 881 00:30:35,464 --> 00:30:36,125 the system. 882 00:30:37,304 --> 00:30:38,204 I don't know. 883 00:30:38,585 --> 00:30:39,865 I think that's the name of the book 884 00:30:39,865 --> 00:30:42,044 anyway, is The Soul of a New Machine. 885 00:30:42,740 --> 00:30:44,100 It's cool. I have to I have to 886 00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:46,259 look that up. I'm gonna make sure that's 887 00:30:46,259 --> 00:30:47,720 correct down here in a second. 888 00:30:48,259 --> 00:30:49,240 Yeah. Of course. 889 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:51,720 I mean, planning so I mean 890 00:30:52,259 --> 00:30:54,019 well, you know. I mean, how how often 891 00:30:54,019 --> 00:30:55,539 is it where you can do planning where 892 00:30:55,539 --> 00:30:56,670 you can go to application owners and say, 893 00:30:56,670 --> 00:30:58,404 hey. What are latency requirements for your latency 894 00:30:58,404 --> 00:31:00,404 requirements for your application so I can build 895 00:31:00,404 --> 00:31:01,845 the right network for it? Or how what 896 00:31:01,845 --> 00:31:03,845 is the you know, there's there's a 897 00:31:05,045 --> 00:31:06,025 it's really hard 898 00:31:06,884 --> 00:31:09,605 to plan out things like networks because so 899 00:31:09,605 --> 00:31:11,279 few people first of all, there's so many 900 00:31:11,359 --> 00:31:13,840 stakeholders. Right? Like, everybody's a stakeholder in when 901 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:14,900 you're building a network. 902 00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:17,920 And so it's very difficult to go to 903 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,840 to find all the stakeholders that can give 904 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,599 you all of the information that you need 905 00:31:21,599 --> 00:31:22,580 to do a proper 906 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,259 job of planning, 907 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,105 an effective network that's never gonna have to 908 00:31:27,105 --> 00:31:27,605 change 909 00:31:28,065 --> 00:31:30,725 on top of it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. 910 00:31:31,105 --> 00:31:32,565 And that's why I think 911 00:31:33,345 --> 00:31:35,025 where the way the planning needs to be 912 00:31:35,025 --> 00:31:36,644 done is we think of planning 913 00:31:37,105 --> 00:31:38,005 as being, 914 00:31:38,429 --> 00:31:40,429 I need to nail down every variable. I 915 00:31:40,429 --> 00:31:42,589 need to really what planning needs to be 916 00:31:42,589 --> 00:31:43,089 is, 917 00:31:43,470 --> 00:31:43,970 alright, 918 00:31:44,509 --> 00:31:46,529 I need this class of thing. 919 00:31:47,549 --> 00:31:49,149 Let's go figure out how to make that 920 00:31:49,149 --> 00:31:51,569 class of thing fit in this system, 921 00:31:52,884 --> 00:31:55,845 and understand the interfaces and understand the risk 922 00:31:55,845 --> 00:31:58,345 levels, and all the things that can happen, 923 00:31:58,804 --> 00:32:00,585 and build around that. 924 00:32:01,765 --> 00:32:05,285 And maybe today, you can't do variable level 925 00:32:05,285 --> 00:32:07,845 planning. Maybe you can't say every variable I'm 926 00:32:07,845 --> 00:32:08,664 gonna need. 927 00:32:09,339 --> 00:32:11,099 Maybe you can for some things, but maybe 928 00:32:11,099 --> 00:32:12,159 not for other things. 929 00:32:12,539 --> 00:32:13,440 And that's okay. 930 00:32:13,980 --> 00:32:14,480 Because, 931 00:32:15,099 --> 00:32:15,839 you know, 932 00:32:16,220 --> 00:32:18,220 because again, that's where the agile part comes 933 00:32:18,220 --> 00:32:21,179 in. Right? But the big overview needs to 934 00:32:21,179 --> 00:32:21,679 be, 935 00:32:21,980 --> 00:32:24,375 I've got to solve this set of problems. 936 00:32:25,255 --> 00:32:26,394 And these are knowns. 937 00:32:27,015 --> 00:32:28,075 And even saying 938 00:32:28,694 --> 00:32:30,875 these are unknowns is still planning. 939 00:32:31,335 --> 00:32:34,714 These are potential problems. 100%. 100%. 940 00:32:34,855 --> 00:32:36,454 And we don't do that. We don't look 941 00:32:36,454 --> 00:32:36,954 at 942 00:32:37,799 --> 00:32:40,759 these are potential problems. Right? That's something we 943 00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:43,319 don't we don't actually do very well. Yeah. 944 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:45,240 And I think most people, if they actually 945 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,919 thought about it just as you described and 946 00:32:46,919 --> 00:32:49,240 actually went and did it, they would understand 947 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,700 that they knew a lot more 948 00:32:51,535 --> 00:32:53,055 about the project they're getting ready to take 949 00:32:53,055 --> 00:32:54,974 on than what they thought they did once 950 00:32:54,974 --> 00:32:56,575 they got it down on paper. It's like, 951 00:32:56,575 --> 00:32:58,015 well, we don't have as many unknowns as 952 00:32:58,015 --> 00:33:00,335 we thought. Mhmm. Or we have way too 953 00:33:00,335 --> 00:33:00,835 many. 954 00:33:01,214 --> 00:33:02,734 Well, perhaps we have way too many. We 955 00:33:02,734 --> 00:33:05,740 have we're way off base here. Yeah. You 956 00:33:05,740 --> 00:33:07,099 would actually once you get on paper and 957 00:33:07,099 --> 00:33:08,619 see it or on screen, however you wanna 958 00:33:08,619 --> 00:33:09,200 do it, 959 00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:11,500 then you can actually make an assessment as 960 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:12,859 to what you need and how much to 961 00:33:12,859 --> 00:33:15,900 allocate and and where agile works versus waterfall 962 00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:17,275 and how you need to approach it. But 963 00:33:17,275 --> 00:33:19,214 until you actually do that initial planning 964 00:33:19,674 --> 00:33:21,355 and actually lay it out and just try 965 00:33:21,355 --> 00:33:22,714 to get as far as you can with 966 00:33:22,714 --> 00:33:23,934 what you have today 967 00:33:24,315 --> 00:33:25,934 Mhmm. Knowledge wise, 968 00:33:27,755 --> 00:33:29,835 you you should reserve judgment until you've done 969 00:33:29,835 --> 00:33:30,335 that. 970 00:33:30,634 --> 00:33:31,775 Yeah. Yeah. 971 00:33:32,369 --> 00:33:34,630 And, again, even knowing what you don't know, 972 00:33:34,849 --> 00:33:35,829 knowing the possibilities. 973 00:33:36,130 --> 00:33:37,809 Okay. There's a gap here. There gonna be 974 00:33:37,809 --> 00:33:39,589 a new product in there in five years. 975 00:33:39,650 --> 00:33:41,250 I don't know what that product looks like. 976 00:33:41,250 --> 00:33:43,170 I don't need to know right now. What 977 00:33:43,170 --> 00:33:45,410 I need to know right now is how 978 00:33:45,410 --> 00:33:46,150 to plan 979 00:33:47,044 --> 00:33:49,125 so that that product in five years will 980 00:33:49,125 --> 00:33:50,664 be the easiest thing to produce. 981 00:33:51,204 --> 00:33:51,704 Mhmm. 982 00:33:52,085 --> 00:33:54,724 Or build the build the correct connector in 983 00:33:54,724 --> 00:33:56,565 it so that whatever comes along in five 984 00:33:56,565 --> 00:33:58,484 years, as long as there it's built with 985 00:33:58,484 --> 00:34:00,565 that connector in mind, like the interfaces thing 986 00:34:00,565 --> 00:34:02,650 you're talking about. Right? Yeah. They'll build an 987 00:34:02,650 --> 00:34:03,549 effective interface. 988 00:34:03,930 --> 00:34:06,009 Yep. That's that's the way it seems to 989 00:34:06,009 --> 00:34:06,509 me. 990 00:34:07,210 --> 00:34:09,929 So, Jonathan, anything else you wanna add before 991 00:34:09,929 --> 00:34:10,809 we wrap up and 992 00:34:13,210 --> 00:34:15,309 well, I appreciate y'all having me on today. 993 00:34:16,055 --> 00:34:17,575 And, you know, I I think that was 994 00:34:17,575 --> 00:34:19,114 a great conversation about planning. 995 00:34:19,575 --> 00:34:21,815 I certainly enjoyed it. And, yeah, if, 996 00:34:22,855 --> 00:34:24,454 if anyone ever wants to see any more 997 00:34:24,454 --> 00:34:25,494 of my work, then you just go to 998 00:34:25,494 --> 00:34:27,434 my website, johnathanadams.pro. 999 00:34:27,815 --> 00:34:29,095 Other than that, you know, I had a 1000 00:34:29,095 --> 00:34:30,489 great time. Thank you for having me. Me. 1001 00:34:30,489 --> 00:34:32,170 Okay. Cool. I was gonna ask you where 1002 00:34:32,170 --> 00:34:35,230 people get in touch with you. So jonathan@adams.pro. 1003 00:34:35,530 --> 00:34:37,849 And do you also I I suppose you 1004 00:34:38,010 --> 00:34:40,269 you're available. Are you reachable on LinkedIn? 1005 00:34:41,210 --> 00:34:43,450 LinkedIn as well. But, yeah, there's a contact 1006 00:34:43,450 --> 00:34:44,969 form on the website as well. So however 1007 00:34:44,969 --> 00:34:46,090 they wanna get a hold of me, they 1008 00:34:46,090 --> 00:34:48,704 can. Alright. And, Tim, where can people find 1009 00:34:48,704 --> 00:34:49,204 you? 1010 00:34:49,505 --> 00:34:50,144 Yeah. Sure. 1011 00:34:50,864 --> 00:34:53,444 Well, I'm on LinkedIn as well, obviously. Okay. 1012 00:34:53,824 --> 00:34:55,505 I do have a website I haven't officially 1013 00:34:55,505 --> 00:34:57,105 launched yet, but might as well go ahead. 1014 00:34:57,344 --> 00:34:59,909 It's, carpedmvpn.com. 1015 00:35:00,150 --> 00:35:01,510 So carpedmvpn, 1016 00:35:01,510 --> 00:35:02,809 like carpedm. 1017 00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:03,849 Yeah. Okay. 1018 00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:06,389 Awesome. And what are you gonna write about 1019 00:35:06,389 --> 00:35:06,889 there? 1020 00:35:08,469 --> 00:35:10,549 Right now, it's actually mostly a collection of 1021 00:35:10,549 --> 00:35:12,710 the stuff I've already written and, like, where 1022 00:35:12,710 --> 00:35:14,549 you can find follow me on social media 1023 00:35:14,549 --> 00:35:16,445 or connect with me and and stuff like 1024 00:35:16,445 --> 00:35:18,925 that. That's not bad, actually. That's pretty much 1025 00:35:18,925 --> 00:35:20,844 where rule 11 is now, is I don't 1026 00:35:20,844 --> 00:35:22,765 write a lot on rule 11. It's just 1027 00:35:22,765 --> 00:35:26,204 more of, I'm speaking here. I'm teaching this. 1028 00:35:26,204 --> 00:35:27,869 I'm doing that type of stuff, 1029 00:35:28,349 --> 00:35:30,030 which I think, you know, is good to 1030 00:35:30,030 --> 00:35:32,050 have even if you don't do as much, 1031 00:35:33,630 --> 00:35:35,550 straight up writing. I might go back to 1032 00:35:35,550 --> 00:35:37,329 doing more writing on rule 11. 1033 00:35:37,869 --> 00:35:39,710 It's just I'm so busy with other training 1034 00:35:39,710 --> 00:35:42,050 right now and stuff, it's kinda hard. That's 1035 00:35:42,110 --> 00:35:42,610 weird. 1036 00:35:43,244 --> 00:35:44,924 So I'm Russ White. You can always find 1037 00:35:44,924 --> 00:35:47,025 me here at the hedge @rule11.tech. 1038 00:35:47,404 --> 00:35:50,045 You can find me on LinkedIn. I do 1039 00:35:50,045 --> 00:35:52,125 log in to x every now and again 1040 00:35:52,125 --> 00:35:53,184 as routing geek. 1041 00:35:53,724 --> 00:35:55,324 And, we know that we live in an 1042 00:35:55,324 --> 00:35:56,625 attention driven economy, 1043 00:35:57,884 --> 00:36:00,969 that, you know, your time is really of 1044 00:36:00,969 --> 00:36:02,510 listening to this this program 1045 00:36:03,049 --> 00:36:05,530 is really what makes things count right now. 1046 00:36:05,530 --> 00:36:07,710 So we appreciate you listening all the way 1047 00:36:07,769 --> 00:36:09,369 to the bitter end of this episode of 1048 00:36:09,369 --> 00:36:11,210 The Hedge. And thank you for listening, and 1049 00:36:11,210 --> 00:36:12,074 we will catch you next 1050 00:36:14,635 --> 00:36:15,135 time.