1 00:00:01,839 --> 00:00:03,839 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,839 --> 00:00:05,219 where we dig into technology, 3 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,320 business, and culture with the finest minds in 4 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:09,220 computer networking. 5 00:00:21,384 --> 00:00:22,844 Hello, frog. Hello, 6 00:00:23,304 --> 00:00:23,804 Yvonne. 7 00:00:24,184 --> 00:00:25,304 I have to say hi to the I 8 00:00:25,304 --> 00:00:26,744 have to say hi to the frog lamp 9 00:00:26,744 --> 00:00:27,244 too. 10 00:00:27,869 --> 00:00:30,029 Yes. The frog lamp is here. Tom is 11 00:00:30,029 --> 00:00:32,369 not here today. I have a new plant. 12 00:00:32,989 --> 00:00:35,710 This is alive. That's a grow light shining 13 00:00:35,710 --> 00:00:37,250 down on it. This is called a Dieffenbachia. 14 00:00:38,270 --> 00:00:40,509 And just for those who haven't been checking 15 00:00:40,509 --> 00:00:43,024 in on Twitter, I've chosen my middle aged 16 00:00:43,024 --> 00:00:44,085 lady hobby, 17 00:00:44,465 --> 00:00:45,604 and it is plants. 18 00:00:46,385 --> 00:00:49,045 So I've become a plant lady. 19 00:00:50,304 --> 00:00:52,965 And you said grow lamp and then said 20 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,359 whatever that word was, which I assume that 21 00:00:55,359 --> 00:00:56,799 was a strain of weed, but then I 22 00:00:56,799 --> 00:00:58,000 looked at the plant and go, oh, no. 23 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,079 That's Yvonne's not growing weed. That wouldn't that 24 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:01,439 wouldn't really fit with you. It's not who 25 00:01:01,439 --> 00:01:04,260 you are. It it's not. It's not. Although, 26 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:06,659 there are days. 27 00:01:10,225 --> 00:01:11,745 But I but I could use something to 28 00:01:11,745 --> 00:01:12,245 relax. 29 00:01:13,105 --> 00:01:16,064 Right? Which are just misplaced plants? It's a 30 00:01:16,064 --> 00:01:18,545 different back. Yeah. There's several different varieties. I 31 00:01:18,545 --> 00:01:19,905 have a small one in the house. I 32 00:01:19,905 --> 00:01:20,805 have this one. 33 00:01:21,549 --> 00:01:23,549 And so yeah. So we'll see how it 34 00:01:23,549 --> 00:01:24,049 survives. 35 00:01:24,829 --> 00:01:25,329 Alright. 36 00:01:25,709 --> 00:01:27,090 Probably better than Tom's. 37 00:01:27,870 --> 00:01:28,609 We'll see. 38 00:01:28,909 --> 00:01:31,250 No. It's it probably better than Tom's. Okay. 39 00:01:31,870 --> 00:01:33,870 Tom's not here, so better than Tom's. Absolutely. 40 00:01:33,870 --> 00:01:35,090 Better than Tom's. Exactly. 41 00:01:35,549 --> 00:01:37,010 And then we have Ethan 42 00:01:37,364 --> 00:01:39,305 with us today. We're we are 43 00:01:39,605 --> 00:01:42,165 honored to have the great and mighty Ethan 44 00:01:42,165 --> 00:01:43,224 Banks with us. 45 00:01:43,605 --> 00:01:44,825 Home of the lucky. 46 00:01:46,724 --> 00:01:49,125 Those sorts have not been strung together before, 47 00:01:49,125 --> 00:01:51,444 Russ. Thank you for that. Really made by 48 00:01:51,444 --> 00:01:51,944 Friday. 49 00:01:54,189 --> 00:01:55,810 Nice to be here on the hedge. 50 00:01:56,590 --> 00:01:58,349 He's looking a little blue. He's got a 51 00:01:58,349 --> 00:01:59,950 blue shirt on. You can't see him, but 52 00:01:59,950 --> 00:02:01,229 he has a blue shirt on and a 53 00:02:01,229 --> 00:02:03,950 blue background. And, you know, we're he's a 54 00:02:03,950 --> 00:02:05,924 little but we'll try to cheer him up. 55 00:02:08,805 --> 00:02:11,125 People like the blue background. I don't know. 56 00:02:11,125 --> 00:02:13,044 Some people do. I guess Russ doesn't. I 57 00:02:13,044 --> 00:02:15,205 need to pick a he's talking about my 58 00:02:15,205 --> 00:02:18,004 my YouTube background. That's that's kinda blue purple. 59 00:02:18,004 --> 00:02:19,385 Whatever. I have blue green 60 00:02:19,925 --> 00:02:22,050 over there, so it's okay. It's fine. You 61 00:02:22,050 --> 00:02:23,909 know? Blue's my favorite color. 62 00:02:24,930 --> 00:02:27,409 Just so you And that cardigan you have 63 00:02:27,409 --> 00:02:30,129 on, whatever that is, would look perfect with 64 00:02:30,129 --> 00:02:32,290 this background I've got here. Probably not enough 65 00:02:32,290 --> 00:02:34,814 contrast, actually. But they're in the same color 66 00:02:34,814 --> 00:02:36,294 family. Yeah. That's right. We do. Ethan Ethan 67 00:02:36,294 --> 00:02:38,294 and his wife. You're the one who's the 68 00:02:38,294 --> 00:02:39,514 odd man out here. 69 00:02:41,254 --> 00:02:43,275 Thanks, Ethan. He's used to it. 70 00:02:44,694 --> 00:02:46,375 I have been the odd man out for 71 00:02:46,375 --> 00:02:47,435 thirty years, so 72 00:02:48,699 --> 00:02:50,000 it is what it is. 73 00:02:50,460 --> 00:02:50,960 So 74 00:02:51,580 --> 00:02:53,340 I have been running into this a lot 75 00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:55,259 recently. I'll just kick this off and and, 76 00:02:55,259 --> 00:02:57,360 you know, everybody just jump in whenever. 77 00:02:57,819 --> 00:02:59,759 I've been running in this a lot lately, 78 00:03:00,034 --> 00:03:02,275 and maybe it's just because I'm old. Maybe 79 00:03:02,275 --> 00:03:04,275 it's just because literally, maybe it's just because 80 00:03:04,275 --> 00:03:05,014 I'm old. 81 00:03:05,715 --> 00:03:06,615 I have noticed 82 00:03:06,995 --> 00:03:08,854 what appears to me to be 83 00:03:09,235 --> 00:03:10,615 a lack of depth 84 00:03:11,875 --> 00:03:15,074 in the network engineering world, and combined with 85 00:03:15,074 --> 00:03:17,459 that, a lot of old people who have 86 00:03:17,459 --> 00:03:18,680 the depth are retiring. 87 00:03:19,699 --> 00:03:21,560 Well, define depth. You've got 88 00:03:21,939 --> 00:03:23,780 13 books to your credit, something like that, 89 00:03:23,780 --> 00:03:25,620 and you're probably working on six more as 90 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:27,539 we speak. And you've been around for a 91 00:03:27,539 --> 00:03:29,299 long time. You work in the IETF. So 92 00:03:29,299 --> 00:03:31,324 depth to you and depth to other people 93 00:03:31,324 --> 00:03:33,004 are probably different things. So how do you 94 00:03:33,004 --> 00:03:33,745 mean depth? 95 00:03:34,284 --> 00:03:35,965 Well, I mean depth even in the sense 96 00:03:35,965 --> 00:03:37,504 of knowing more than one protocol 97 00:03:38,764 --> 00:03:41,965 any longer. Almost everybody knows BGP, and they 98 00:03:41,965 --> 00:03:44,064 know Ethernet, and that's what they know. 99 00:03:44,525 --> 00:03:46,064 And there ain't nothing else. 100 00:03:46,419 --> 00:03:48,099 There's got they got nothing else in their 101 00:03:48,099 --> 00:03:49,000 in their toolbox. 102 00:03:49,699 --> 00:03:52,180 And thought BGP was the one protocol to 103 00:03:52,180 --> 00:03:53,959 rule them all when it came to networking. 104 00:03:54,419 --> 00:03:56,120 It's the garbage can of the Internet. 105 00:03:56,900 --> 00:03:57,799 There we go. 106 00:03:58,419 --> 00:04:00,194 We just throw everything in there 107 00:04:01,795 --> 00:04:04,194 and hope for the best. Maybe it's maybe 108 00:04:04,194 --> 00:04:05,795 it should say it's the junk drawer, not 109 00:04:05,795 --> 00:04:06,775 the garbage can. 110 00:04:07,314 --> 00:04:09,395 Well, okay. So hang on. You're saying people 111 00:04:09,395 --> 00:04:10,055 know BGP? 112 00:04:10,754 --> 00:04:12,694 Mhmm. But you can't know. 113 00:04:13,250 --> 00:04:15,569 BGP to me is like the if you're 114 00:04:15,569 --> 00:04:17,910 coming up as a network engineer, it's it's 115 00:04:18,370 --> 00:04:20,689 sort of the last routing protocol you learn 116 00:04:20,689 --> 00:04:22,470 because you cut your teeth on 117 00:04:23,009 --> 00:04:24,069 simpler protocols 118 00:04:24,529 --> 00:04:25,004 like, 119 00:04:25,404 --> 00:04:28,365 like RIP. You go very basic, understand how 120 00:04:28,365 --> 00:04:29,964 that works, get your head around that, then 121 00:04:29,964 --> 00:04:31,745 you can build on that and move to, 122 00:04:32,444 --> 00:04:34,764 other protocols. You can figure out OSPF and 123 00:04:34,764 --> 00:04:36,605 ISIS. You might be if you're in the 124 00:04:36,605 --> 00:04:38,365 Cisco land, maybe you spend some time with 125 00:04:38,365 --> 00:04:40,145 the EIGRP, and you build 126 00:04:40,850 --> 00:04:43,250 on routing protocols and principles and how they 127 00:04:43,250 --> 00:04:45,189 work, and you learn about things like, 128 00:04:45,649 --> 00:04:48,210 split horizon and poison reverse and and a 129 00:04:48,210 --> 00:04:49,970 bunch of other concerns. How do you prevent 130 00:04:49,970 --> 00:04:52,129 a how does a routing protocol prevent loops 131 00:04:52,129 --> 00:04:54,334 and so on? Then you move to BGP, 132 00:04:54,334 --> 00:04:56,495 which kind of blows up half the things 133 00:04:56,495 --> 00:04:58,735 you thought you knew and or reapplies them 134 00:04:58,735 --> 00:05:00,574 in different ways, and you gotta have that 135 00:05:00,574 --> 00:05:02,014 background to be able to put that together 136 00:05:02,014 --> 00:05:03,394 to get your head around BGP. 137 00:05:03,694 --> 00:05:06,194 No. These people just know BGP. 138 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,080 They've never deployed, run. They don't even know 139 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,399 how rip works. You say the words Bellman 140 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:12,220 Ford to them, 141 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,319 what do you mean? What is who who's 142 00:05:15,319 --> 00:05:16,860 Bellman? Is that a protocol? 143 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,845 Like, Bellman Ford, who is that? That's two 144 00:05:20,845 --> 00:05:23,805 last names. But nonetheless, that is actually what 145 00:05:23,805 --> 00:05:25,985 I'm encountering. I'm encountering that, and I'm encountering 146 00:05:27,164 --> 00:05:28,844 a number of people who don't seem to 147 00:05:28,844 --> 00:05:31,245 understand the hardware limitations of or what a 148 00:05:31,245 --> 00:05:32,544 router actually does. 149 00:05:33,404 --> 00:05:33,904 Like, 150 00:05:34,449 --> 00:05:35,350 it's a router. 151 00:05:35,730 --> 00:05:37,649 It has six one hundred gig ports on 152 00:05:37,649 --> 00:05:39,569 it. It should be able to route 600 153 00:05:39,569 --> 00:05:40,069 gig. 154 00:05:40,770 --> 00:05:42,689 Yeah. No. No no matter what operation you 155 00:05:42,689 --> 00:05:44,770 mean, like, NCAP, decAP, and encryption, and these 156 00:05:44,770 --> 00:05:47,089 sorts of things that Yeah. Are highly dependent 157 00:05:47,089 --> 00:05:48,884 on the silicon and what that chip has 158 00:05:48,884 --> 00:05:50,745 been designed to do or not do, 159 00:05:51,204 --> 00:05:53,365 which is a massive exercise in trade offs. 160 00:05:53,365 --> 00:05:55,204 Yes. And and that the idea that there 161 00:05:55,204 --> 00:05:56,824 is an actual backplane 162 00:05:57,204 --> 00:05:59,144 that has its own set of limitations 163 00:05:59,764 --> 00:06:00,264 or, 164 00:06:01,060 --> 00:06:04,740 other other processing capabilities that are happening inside 165 00:06:04,740 --> 00:06:07,139 of that router where there there are chips 166 00:06:07,139 --> 00:06:08,520 that have to do work. 167 00:06:09,379 --> 00:06:11,639 And, you know, and I and I think 168 00:06:13,060 --> 00:06:15,720 in in the defense of a young engineer, 169 00:06:16,634 --> 00:06:19,035 you know, a few years ago, it became 170 00:06:19,035 --> 00:06:21,354 really popular to deploy BGP in a data 171 00:06:21,354 --> 00:06:21,854 center. 172 00:06:22,314 --> 00:06:24,555 Mhmm. And and in in your, you know, 173 00:06:24,555 --> 00:06:25,854 your leaf spine networks, 174 00:06:26,394 --> 00:06:27,615 it's it's entirely 175 00:06:27,995 --> 00:06:30,529 possible that, you know, especially if they haven't 176 00:06:30,529 --> 00:06:32,529 worked in a campus network or they haven't 177 00:06:32,529 --> 00:06:34,389 worked in an enterprise environment, 178 00:06:35,329 --> 00:06:37,569 that you have engineers that have never ever 179 00:06:37,569 --> 00:06:40,709 seen some of those protocols that for, 180 00:06:41,649 --> 00:06:43,525 those of us of the, you know, I'll 181 00:06:43,525 --> 00:06:46,004 just say gray beard variety even though that 182 00:06:46,004 --> 00:06:47,625 doesn't exactly apply. 183 00:06:48,884 --> 00:06:49,384 That, 184 00:06:50,085 --> 00:06:52,425 you know, they were just the understood 185 00:06:53,045 --> 00:06:55,680 protocols of of our day. You know, you 186 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,220 you would never run BGP 187 00:06:57,759 --> 00:06:58,900 in a in a, 188 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,920 you know, campus network or even in the 189 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,480 data center back in the day. And really 190 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,120 my first exposure to BGP came when we 191 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,259 started doing wider networks and Internet connectivity. 192 00:07:11,205 --> 00:07:13,845 Right? Which, believe it or not, wasn't always 193 00:07:13,845 --> 00:07:14,504 a thing. 194 00:07:15,125 --> 00:07:17,205 That's right. Not all networks connected to the 195 00:07:17,205 --> 00:07:17,705 Internet 196 00:07:18,485 --> 00:07:20,185 at one time in the world. 197 00:07:20,805 --> 00:07:22,745 Yeah. And I hear what you're saying, Yvonne, 198 00:07:23,045 --> 00:07:24,985 but that also speaks to 199 00:07:26,009 --> 00:07:28,349 are people not changing jobs as often? 200 00:07:28,810 --> 00:07:31,229 Or is it just that everybody's building networks 201 00:07:31,289 --> 00:07:32,269 the same way, 202 00:07:33,529 --> 00:07:34,349 and therefore, 203 00:07:36,009 --> 00:07:38,490 nobody has it's you know, Ethan, you said 204 00:07:38,490 --> 00:07:40,009 this once, and I heard you say it. 205 00:07:40,009 --> 00:07:40,935 I know you said it. 206 00:07:42,855 --> 00:07:45,035 Ethan said a lot of things. I understand. 207 00:07:45,095 --> 00:07:46,774 I got, like, a hon. What did I 208 00:07:46,774 --> 00:07:48,294 say that I'm not gonna remember saying? Go 209 00:07:48,294 --> 00:07:49,435 ahead, Russ. Go ahead. 210 00:07:50,615 --> 00:07:52,615 And it it actually had an impression on 211 00:07:52,615 --> 00:07:54,134 me, by the way. You know, it it 212 00:07:54,134 --> 00:07:55,995 made a big it made sense to me, 213 00:07:57,029 --> 00:07:59,050 is that there is a vast difference 214 00:07:59,509 --> 00:08:01,290 between twenty years of experience 215 00:08:01,990 --> 00:08:04,470 and twenty years of the same experience 20 216 00:08:04,470 --> 00:08:04,970 times. 217 00:08:05,670 --> 00:08:06,170 Yeah. 218 00:08:06,550 --> 00:08:07,050 Right? 219 00:08:07,430 --> 00:08:08,710 If you say I said that, I I 220 00:08:08,790 --> 00:08:10,230 it sounds like something I might have said 221 00:08:10,230 --> 00:08:11,370 because, that's been 222 00:08:11,754 --> 00:08:13,375 that has been my experience. 223 00:08:14,875 --> 00:08:16,795 Moving around to different jobs and working on 224 00:08:16,795 --> 00:08:18,814 different networks with different needs and requirements 225 00:08:21,675 --> 00:08:24,175 and constraints to how you build the network 226 00:08:25,650 --> 00:08:27,590 forces you to come up with different solutions. 227 00:08:28,210 --> 00:08:30,050 Walking into a shop that's a Cisco shop 228 00:08:30,050 --> 00:08:31,650 and then later going to a shop that's 229 00:08:31,650 --> 00:08:32,790 anything but Cisco 230 00:08:33,649 --> 00:08:34,870 creates a whole different, 231 00:08:35,250 --> 00:08:38,445 environment and mindset. And so, yeah, that that's 232 00:08:38,445 --> 00:08:39,804 right. If you do the same thing over 233 00:08:39,804 --> 00:08:40,705 and over again, 234 00:08:41,404 --> 00:08:43,884 you don't learn nothing, or you don't you 235 00:08:43,884 --> 00:08:46,465 you only learn one thing. Just keep repeating. 236 00:08:46,764 --> 00:08:49,004 Is that a so, again, I back up. 237 00:08:49,004 --> 00:08:50,365 Do do a lot of people not change 238 00:08:50,365 --> 00:08:52,205 jobs anymore and get that kind of experience? 239 00:08:52,205 --> 00:08:53,950 Am I crazy? Like, I know I change 240 00:08:53,950 --> 00:08:55,570 jobs a lot more than some people. 241 00:08:56,029 --> 00:08:58,429 Although, I'm just offsetting my early career. You 242 00:08:58,429 --> 00:09:00,190 know, I was at Cisco for sixteen years. 243 00:09:00,190 --> 00:09:02,590 So now to make up the average number 244 00:09:02,590 --> 00:09:04,590 of job changes for a network engineer over 245 00:09:04,590 --> 00:09:05,250 my life, 246 00:09:08,115 --> 00:09:10,514 I have to change jobs more often. I 247 00:09:10,514 --> 00:09:12,115 mean, if you're in tech, I thought changing 248 00:09:12,115 --> 00:09:13,735 jobs was normal either because 249 00:09:14,514 --> 00:09:16,194 you kinda had to if you wanted to 250 00:09:16,194 --> 00:09:18,514 move on with your career because most of 251 00:09:18,514 --> 00:09:20,139 us in tech tend to get stuck if 252 00:09:20,139 --> 00:09:21,419 we stay in the same place because there's 253 00:09:21,419 --> 00:09:22,559 nowhere else to go, 254 00:09:24,059 --> 00:09:24,559 or, 255 00:09:25,500 --> 00:09:27,259 you get laid off. That seems to be 256 00:09:27,259 --> 00:09:29,740 another trend in, in certain of the tech 257 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:31,980 companies anyway. And so you kinda have to 258 00:09:31,980 --> 00:09:33,759 go, you know, find something else. 259 00:09:34,445 --> 00:09:36,605 I I mean, who who stays at the 260 00:09:36,605 --> 00:09:38,845 same company for forever and ever? I don't 261 00:09:38,845 --> 00:09:41,004 know. Are are you are you speculating that's 262 00:09:41,004 --> 00:09:42,205 a thing, Russ? Or do you is that 263 00:09:42,205 --> 00:09:43,965 what you're going to do? Yeah. I'm trying 264 00:09:43,965 --> 00:09:46,924 to understand why the depth that I am 265 00:09:46,924 --> 00:09:49,264 so accustomed to among the old folks 266 00:09:50,269 --> 00:09:52,189 is not there in the younger folks. Is 267 00:09:52,189 --> 00:09:55,069 it is it just because they're younger? I 268 00:09:55,069 --> 00:09:56,669 think that's the deep are you in your 269 00:09:56,669 --> 00:09:57,490 twenties, seriously? 270 00:09:59,549 --> 00:10:01,409 Do you really wanna know the answer 271 00:10:01,784 --> 00:10:02,524 to that? 272 00:10:02,904 --> 00:10:04,684 Not as deep as the rest of today. 273 00:10:04,825 --> 00:10:06,745 I can guarantee that no matter how good 274 00:10:06,745 --> 00:10:08,184 you were in your twenties. And I and 275 00:10:08,184 --> 00:10:09,384 I know you were. I know some of 276 00:10:09,384 --> 00:10:11,225 you the radio stuff you did and, you 277 00:10:11,225 --> 00:10:13,024 know, various things. You were a you were 278 00:10:13,024 --> 00:10:13,884 a tech nerd 279 00:10:14,319 --> 00:10:16,500 even as a a a younger man, 280 00:10:16,959 --> 00:10:20,399 but still you didn't have the That's fine. 281 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,559 Plus years of experience that came has come 282 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,220 for you since then. Yeah. Of course not. 283 00:10:25,759 --> 00:10:27,459 But, again, I go back to, 284 00:10:28,514 --> 00:10:30,434 is that the is that really the only 285 00:10:30,434 --> 00:10:32,514 thing that's going on here? Or is it 286 00:10:32,514 --> 00:10:35,014 that everybody's building networks the same way? 287 00:10:35,315 --> 00:10:37,074 So even if you go to five different 288 00:10:37,074 --> 00:10:38,615 jobs in five different companies, 289 00:10:39,475 --> 00:10:41,394 you end up with the same experience at 290 00:10:41,394 --> 00:10:42,454 all five companies. 291 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,559 Well, I think it's I think there's something 292 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:47,080 else going on. And I let me I'll 293 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,160 give you a a take here. So I'm 294 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:51,879 this is the third show I've been a 295 00:10:51,879 --> 00:10:53,820 guest on this week, and this this 296 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,759 similar kinds of topics have have come up 297 00:10:56,759 --> 00:10:57,660 on each show. 298 00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:58,540 But 299 00:10:59,294 --> 00:11:01,214 I have been working on a new podcast 300 00:11:01,214 --> 00:11:03,375 called n is for networking, and that is 301 00:11:03,375 --> 00:11:06,674 a show about networking fundamentals because we're finding 302 00:11:06,815 --> 00:11:07,554 that with 303 00:11:08,174 --> 00:11:10,414 people who are trying to break into the 304 00:11:10,414 --> 00:11:11,475 networking field, 305 00:11:12,220 --> 00:11:14,639 the technology stack that we use to deploy 306 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:16,000 standardized 307 00:11:16,379 --> 00:11:17,360 vendor configurations 308 00:11:17,820 --> 00:11:20,139 now, however you they're sort of they're validated 309 00:11:20,139 --> 00:11:23,340 designs, they're certified designs, however you wanna describe 310 00:11:23,340 --> 00:11:23,840 it, 311 00:11:24,485 --> 00:11:26,805 are things that we grew up with, but 312 00:11:26,805 --> 00:11:29,524 they're looking at this kind of inscrutable stack 313 00:11:29,524 --> 00:11:31,925 of things, not seeing all the different pieces 314 00:11:31,925 --> 00:11:33,685 and parts that make it up. It's like 315 00:11:33,685 --> 00:11:34,425 one thing. 316 00:11:34,884 --> 00:11:37,285 Okay? So in MS for networking, I'm working 317 00:11:37,285 --> 00:11:38,425 with, Holly Metlitzky. 318 00:11:38,965 --> 00:11:39,865 She's got 319 00:11:40,460 --> 00:11:42,860 two ish years of experience working at Juniper 320 00:11:42,860 --> 00:11:43,919 as a sales engineer. 321 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:45,200 WhipSmart, 322 00:11:46,299 --> 00:11:49,340 aggressively going after certifications, trying to learn stuff, 323 00:11:49,340 --> 00:11:51,820 and we're talking through topics together. She's like, 324 00:11:52,220 --> 00:11:53,360 that's what that means. 325 00:11:53,660 --> 00:11:55,100 That's how the that's how you put that 326 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:55,600 together. 327 00:11:56,054 --> 00:11:58,615 Wait. In the guide I used to build 328 00:11:58,615 --> 00:11:59,975 this out for a customer, it says to 329 00:11:59,975 --> 00:12:01,894 do this, but I've never understood why. What's 330 00:12:01,894 --> 00:12:02,634 going on? 331 00:12:03,095 --> 00:12:05,095 Because they're not getting that in in the 332 00:12:05,095 --> 00:12:07,034 training is a is a piece of it. 333 00:12:07,174 --> 00:12:09,254 I think another piece of it is we're 334 00:12:09,254 --> 00:12:11,669 getting queries from people who were like, I 335 00:12:11,669 --> 00:12:13,509 want you guys to do an episode on 336 00:12:13,509 --> 00:12:14,649 EVPN VXLAN 337 00:12:15,509 --> 00:12:17,990 because that's what, apparently, the environment is that 338 00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:19,750 they're operating in or that's what they're being 339 00:12:19,750 --> 00:12:21,190 told to deploy. They need to know this 340 00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:21,690 technology. 341 00:12:22,230 --> 00:12:23,830 You know how it took us decades to 342 00:12:23,830 --> 00:12:26,230 get to EVPN VXLAN as a solution. It's 343 00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:27,105 a ton of technologies that all of that 344 00:12:27,105 --> 00:12:27,605 LANs 345 00:12:39,745 --> 00:12:41,970 and tunnels and end tie, end LANs and 346 00:12:41,970 --> 00:12:42,929 tunnels and n tie 347 00:12:44,769 --> 00:12:48,710 NCAP and DCAP and, encryption potentially and translating 348 00:12:48,850 --> 00:12:51,330 from VLAN to VXLANs. And why did we 349 00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:54,230 need VXLAN to begin with? It's this huge 350 00:12:54,884 --> 00:12:57,045 set of problems and solutions that have come 351 00:12:57,045 --> 00:12:58,644 and gone, and we didn't have a control 352 00:12:58,644 --> 00:13:01,305 plane originally with VXLAN, and there was multicast. 353 00:13:01,445 --> 00:13:01,945 And 354 00:13:02,404 --> 00:13:03,605 just to get you to a point where, 355 00:13:03,605 --> 00:13:04,665 like, okay. 356 00:13:05,045 --> 00:13:06,665 Now with all that background, 357 00:13:07,509 --> 00:13:09,110 you can we can begin to have the 358 00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:11,049 EVPN VXLAN conversation. 359 00:13:11,429 --> 00:13:11,929 It's 360 00:13:12,309 --> 00:13:14,309 a piece of of knowledge. Yeah. I think 361 00:13:14,309 --> 00:13:16,389 that's absolutely true as well. I'm sorry, Yvonne. 362 00:13:16,389 --> 00:13:17,669 I don't know if you wanna jump in 363 00:13:17,669 --> 00:13:19,485 there, but just give me a second. No. 364 00:13:19,964 --> 00:13:21,804 I'll say this. I do a lot of 365 00:13:21,804 --> 00:13:24,544 training, and I face exactly the same problem. 366 00:13:24,845 --> 00:13:27,584 I get constant flows of people saying, 367 00:13:27,884 --> 00:13:30,225 can you do advanced topic x? 368 00:13:31,325 --> 00:13:32,225 And you're like, 369 00:13:33,325 --> 00:13:33,825 okay. 370 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:36,580 I understand that you need to learn 371 00:13:37,279 --> 00:13:37,779 Rocky. 372 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:39,840 I understand that you need to learn what 373 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,679 a dragonfly is. I got it. You wanna 374 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,440 get into the AI field or whatever it 375 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:43,940 is. 376 00:13:44,399 --> 00:13:45,299 I get that. 377 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,799 But do you have the foundational knowledge for 378 00:13:48,799 --> 00:13:50,205 me to explain it 379 00:13:50,545 --> 00:13:51,045 to 380 00:13:51,384 --> 00:13:53,544 you without having to spend four hours or 381 00:13:53,544 --> 00:13:56,264 ten hours or twenty hours doing so? And 382 00:13:56,264 --> 00:13:58,264 then when you start to explain it and 383 00:13:58,264 --> 00:14:00,345 you're like, I understand where you are, I 384 00:14:00,345 --> 00:14:01,245 need to explain, 385 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:05,139 cloth fabrics before or or butterflies before I 386 00:14:05,139 --> 00:14:06,120 can get to dragonflies. 387 00:14:06,500 --> 00:14:07,860 And they're like, I don't worry about doing 388 00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:09,059 no no no no no no. I just 389 00:14:09,059 --> 00:14:10,679 wanna be able to work on that network. 390 00:14:10,980 --> 00:14:12,279 And you're like, that's 391 00:14:12,899 --> 00:14:14,759 not the way this field works. 392 00:14:15,695 --> 00:14:17,875 That's not the way our knowledge works 393 00:14:18,254 --> 00:14:19,075 as engineers. 394 00:14:19,855 --> 00:14:21,715 I'm sorry, but it's just not. 395 00:14:22,654 --> 00:14:24,254 So Yvonne, toss in. I know you were 396 00:14:24,254 --> 00:14:26,495 gonna say something. Well, gosh. I have so 397 00:14:26,495 --> 00:14:28,195 many thoughts. I think first, 398 00:14:28,815 --> 00:14:29,554 you know, 399 00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:32,769 folks need practical knowledge to be able to 400 00:14:32,769 --> 00:14:34,309 get a job. Right? 401 00:14:35,089 --> 00:14:35,589 And 402 00:14:36,209 --> 00:14:38,230 and so I I really understand 403 00:14:38,689 --> 00:14:40,929 this. Hey, I need to know this very 404 00:14:40,929 --> 00:14:41,909 specific thing. 405 00:14:42,289 --> 00:14:43,750 Yep. We also have 406 00:14:44,209 --> 00:14:44,709 this, 407 00:14:45,884 --> 00:14:47,184 you know, cultural 408 00:14:47,964 --> 00:14:49,804 theme of our training that was let me 409 00:14:49,804 --> 00:14:51,725 show you how to configure it, not let 410 00:14:51,725 --> 00:14:53,664 me show you exactly how it works. 411 00:14:54,845 --> 00:14:57,184 And there's way more to know 412 00:14:57,509 --> 00:14:59,590 than than there was when the rest of 413 00:14:59,590 --> 00:15:02,889 us started twenty, thirty, forty years ago. 414 00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:05,509 Yep. And where do you start in the 415 00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:06,009 abstraction? 416 00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:08,629 Like, where do you start? Do you go 417 00:15:08,629 --> 00:15:10,410 all the way back to, 418 00:15:11,054 --> 00:15:13,215 you know, ones and zeros and bits on 419 00:15:13,215 --> 00:15:15,154 the wire and how all that happens? 420 00:15:15,934 --> 00:15:18,495 Do do you do you start with that? 421 00:15:18,495 --> 00:15:21,315 Okay. There's three years of, 422 00:15:21,774 --> 00:15:24,674 you know, background, whether we're talking about, 423 00:15:26,539 --> 00:15:28,940 you know, how things work at the physical 424 00:15:28,940 --> 00:15:30,720 layer and Ethernet 425 00:15:31,259 --> 00:15:33,839 and very fundamentals of encapsulation. 426 00:15:34,779 --> 00:15:36,539 And at that point, it's three or four 427 00:15:36,539 --> 00:15:38,940 years before somebody has the information that they 428 00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:40,639 need to be able to get a job. 429 00:15:41,054 --> 00:15:44,195 Right? And so it's it is a challenging 430 00:15:44,495 --> 00:15:44,995 problem. 431 00:15:45,695 --> 00:15:46,514 I think, 432 00:15:47,054 --> 00:15:50,034 you know, we are missing this whole internship 433 00:15:50,975 --> 00:15:53,455 kind of process where you take a more 434 00:15:53,455 --> 00:15:56,220 senior person, you bring a more junior person 435 00:15:56,220 --> 00:15:58,699 alongside of them, they work alongside of them, 436 00:15:58,699 --> 00:16:00,699 they do things and then they ask questions 437 00:16:00,699 --> 00:16:02,159 and learn as they go. 438 00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:04,879 I think that's a better model, 439 00:16:05,339 --> 00:16:06,699 but I don't I don't know if that 440 00:16:06,699 --> 00:16:07,199 exists. 441 00:16:07,579 --> 00:16:09,440 And now, you know, 442 00:16:09,785 --> 00:16:11,884 there's just so much to know. 443 00:16:12,904 --> 00:16:13,644 And it's 444 00:16:14,105 --> 00:16:16,764 it's and I don't think we've figured out 445 00:16:17,065 --> 00:16:19,144 how to how to get people in that 446 00:16:19,144 --> 00:16:21,545 pipeline in a way that's effective for them, 447 00:16:21,545 --> 00:16:22,365 our organizations, 448 00:16:24,009 --> 00:16:26,809 and still continues to leverage all this knowledge 449 00:16:26,809 --> 00:16:28,750 of folks who've been around for a while. 450 00:16:29,049 --> 00:16:31,370 Yeah. I think I think so. We've hit 451 00:16:31,370 --> 00:16:32,730 three things so far, which I think are 452 00:16:32,730 --> 00:16:34,250 interest couple of three things I think were 453 00:16:34,250 --> 00:16:36,934 true. One is, I think that I still 454 00:16:36,934 --> 00:16:40,134 think that all the technology has become so 455 00:16:40,134 --> 00:16:40,634 standardized 456 00:16:41,975 --> 00:16:44,054 that you don't move from one company to 457 00:16:44,054 --> 00:16:45,674 another and get something different. 458 00:16:46,294 --> 00:16:48,454 It's it's all the same. Every company, they 459 00:16:48,454 --> 00:16:49,514 do the same thing. 460 00:16:50,740 --> 00:16:52,899 They use Ansible or whatever it is. They 461 00:16:52,899 --> 00:16:54,580 use, you know, the same five set of 462 00:16:54,580 --> 00:16:55,080 tools. 463 00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:58,019 I think that's The the technology stack is 464 00:16:58,019 --> 00:17:02,100 standardized, you're saying? Yes. Yes. Okay. So so 465 00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:04,599 you never step outside that technology stack. 466 00:17:04,934 --> 00:17:06,774 If you never if you never work on 467 00:17:06,774 --> 00:17:09,674 a network that actually runs ISIS or SPF 468 00:17:10,934 --> 00:17:13,994 Mhmm. You never really understand link state protocols. 469 00:17:15,734 --> 00:17:16,234 Right? 470 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,840 So how how how can I fuss about 471 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,779 somebody not knowing link state protocols 472 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,080 when there aren't many networks in the world 473 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:25,940 that run link state protocols anymore? 474 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:27,380 They all run BGP. 475 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:30,400 And so you're like, okay. But there's there's 476 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:31,779 a depth problem there. 477 00:17:32,384 --> 00:17:34,224 I think the second thing was Yvonne is 478 00:17:34,224 --> 00:17:35,125 saying is that 479 00:17:35,505 --> 00:17:36,484 we don't mentor. 480 00:17:37,345 --> 00:17:38,484 We don't do anything. 481 00:17:39,904 --> 00:17:41,825 We just bring people in and throw them 482 00:17:41,825 --> 00:17:43,184 to the walls. I mean, my first day 483 00:17:43,184 --> 00:17:43,765 at Sysco, 484 00:17:44,549 --> 00:17:46,870 I I walked in the office in at 485 00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:49,049 the Hardwood Hotel, as we called it, 486 00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:51,430 and they said, there's the TAC. So I 487 00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:53,210 walked over to the TAC, and they said, 488 00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:55,830 we've gotten you a set of 12 dot 489 00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:57,830 o or eleven eleven dot whatever it was, 490 00:17:57,830 --> 00:18:00,164 10 dot x, whatever it was, documentation, 491 00:18:00,625 --> 00:18:02,404 and there was a magazine rack, 492 00:18:02,785 --> 00:18:04,705 you know, that was two feet wide or 493 00:18:04,705 --> 00:18:07,125 three feet wide. And there was this huge 494 00:18:07,184 --> 00:18:08,484 group of books in it, 495 00:18:08,945 --> 00:18:11,424 and they said, here's the telephone. Here's your 496 00:18:11,424 --> 00:18:12,164 son workstation. 497 00:18:12,545 --> 00:18:13,365 Take cases. 498 00:18:14,990 --> 00:18:15,649 Have that. 499 00:18:16,190 --> 00:18:17,710 I mean, there was literally there was no 500 00:18:17,710 --> 00:18:18,210 training 501 00:18:18,990 --> 00:18:19,490 because 502 00:18:20,829 --> 00:18:21,490 you know? 503 00:18:21,950 --> 00:18:24,109 So what you did instead was you learned 504 00:18:24,109 --> 00:18:24,929 to ask questions 505 00:18:25,710 --> 00:18:27,950 of everybody around you, and you were slow 506 00:18:27,950 --> 00:18:30,975 taking cases at first until you ramped your 507 00:18:30,975 --> 00:18:31,875 knowledge up. 508 00:18:32,575 --> 00:18:34,275 So part of that problem is 509 00:18:35,055 --> 00:18:37,875 businesses expect people to hit the ground running, 510 00:18:38,734 --> 00:18:40,335 and they don't expect there to be a 511 00:18:40,335 --> 00:18:41,695 time when they have to pay them and 512 00:18:41,695 --> 00:18:42,434 ramp up. 513 00:18:43,009 --> 00:18:45,090 So maybe that's another part of what Yvonne 514 00:18:45,090 --> 00:18:45,990 is talking about. 515 00:18:47,090 --> 00:18:49,910 I also listened to a great podcast, Lenny's 516 00:18:49,970 --> 00:18:51,650 podcast. Let me see if I can I 517 00:18:51,650 --> 00:18:53,570 can pull up, but they were they were, 518 00:18:54,850 --> 00:18:55,750 he was interviewing, 519 00:18:57,295 --> 00:18:58,115 basically, a hotelier? 520 00:18:58,894 --> 00:19:00,355 It's it's called Lenny's podcast. 521 00:19:00,734 --> 00:19:01,474 Okay. Yeah. 522 00:19:02,015 --> 00:19:04,734 But he was interviewing a hotelier that was 523 00:19:04,734 --> 00:19:05,234 hired 524 00:19:05,615 --> 00:19:06,515 by Airbnb. 525 00:19:07,615 --> 00:19:09,394 He was not a technical person, 526 00:19:09,940 --> 00:19:11,859 but he had he had built his own 527 00:19:11,859 --> 00:19:13,720 chain of hotels and he was 528 00:19:14,099 --> 00:19:15,400 in his fifties, 529 00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:16,599 nearing 60 530 00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:17,720 when 531 00:19:18,019 --> 00:19:18,519 Airbnb 532 00:19:18,980 --> 00:19:22,039 hired him as a consultant working with 20 533 00:19:22,099 --> 00:19:22,599 developers. 534 00:19:23,535 --> 00:19:25,375 And he was talking about a lot of 535 00:19:25,375 --> 00:19:27,394 what he brought the conversation 536 00:19:27,934 --> 00:19:31,215 was not just, hey, let me show you 537 00:19:31,215 --> 00:19:32,674 how this looks and feels 538 00:19:32,975 --> 00:19:35,315 from the perspective of a different generation, 539 00:19:36,255 --> 00:19:38,035 but brought this experience 540 00:19:39,110 --> 00:19:39,610 that, 541 00:19:41,509 --> 00:19:44,470 just young folks don't have. And I also 542 00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:44,970 think 543 00:19:45,430 --> 00:19:46,730 there there is 544 00:19:48,230 --> 00:19:49,210 a preference 545 00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:51,289 toward youth and energy 546 00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:53,130 that doesn't 547 00:19:53,865 --> 00:19:56,125 always take into account the wisdom 548 00:19:56,505 --> 00:19:58,585 of folks who've been around a while. And 549 00:19:58,585 --> 00:20:00,664 I think that's a that's a component too 550 00:20:00,664 --> 00:20:03,325 that, you know, hey. These these young upstarts, 551 00:20:03,384 --> 00:20:05,384 they're gonna move fast. They're gonna do all 552 00:20:05,384 --> 00:20:07,085 the things. They're not gonna overanalyze. 553 00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:09,309 And you don't have to pay them as 554 00:20:09,309 --> 00:20:09,809 much. 555 00:20:11,149 --> 00:20:12,210 And to work more hours. 556 00:20:12,829 --> 00:20:15,329 And and but there's a degree of balancing 557 00:20:15,470 --> 00:20:16,369 that with 558 00:20:17,069 --> 00:20:18,829 the, oh, yeah. You know, don't go there. 559 00:20:18,829 --> 00:20:21,169 There'll be dragons. Like, been there, done that. 560 00:20:21,304 --> 00:20:23,544 I know that when this happened, I've seen 561 00:20:23,544 --> 00:20:24,365 this before. 562 00:20:24,984 --> 00:20:27,704 Mhmm. And the the pattern matching that comes 563 00:20:27,704 --> 00:20:28,605 with experience, 564 00:20:30,025 --> 00:20:31,865 and and we we have to find a 565 00:20:31,865 --> 00:20:32,365 way 566 00:20:32,904 --> 00:20:33,404 to 567 00:20:34,490 --> 00:20:35,789 capitalize on that 568 00:20:36,250 --> 00:20:37,789 while at the same time 569 00:20:38,490 --> 00:20:39,950 getting value from 570 00:20:40,330 --> 00:20:41,309 youthful energy, 571 00:20:42,170 --> 00:20:43,710 which brings its own 572 00:20:44,250 --> 00:20:44,750 benefits. 573 00:20:45,610 --> 00:20:46,509 Mhmm. Because, 574 00:20:46,809 --> 00:20:49,035 y'all, there are some things, like, I'm just 575 00:20:49,035 --> 00:20:50,095 not doing anymore, 576 00:20:50,555 --> 00:20:52,634 you know, that that I would do in 577 00:20:52,634 --> 00:20:53,375 my twenties, 578 00:20:54,634 --> 00:20:55,295 you know, 579 00:20:55,994 --> 00:20:57,674 that were great for me and great for 580 00:20:57,674 --> 00:20:59,674 my organization at the time, but I'm I'm 581 00:20:59,674 --> 00:21:00,575 not there anymore. 582 00:21:01,349 --> 00:21:03,670 Yeah. Like, when I was in Cisco TAC, 583 00:21:03,670 --> 00:21:05,849 we had what we call BIC duty, 584 00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:07,929 b I c. 585 00:21:08,390 --> 00:21:11,109 And it was on Saturdays and Sundays. Because, 586 00:21:11,109 --> 00:21:12,869 of course, TAC coverage has to be 24 587 00:21:12,869 --> 00:21:15,210 by seven seven days a week. You can't, 588 00:21:15,349 --> 00:21:17,049 like, just not have the TAC up. 589 00:21:17,565 --> 00:21:19,404 And so the way tech worked was there 590 00:21:19,404 --> 00:21:21,724 was a rotating schedule around the world. We 591 00:21:21,724 --> 00:21:22,865 picked up from Amsterdam, 592 00:21:23,325 --> 00:21:25,565 Mexico City, whatever. We had this whole thing. 593 00:21:25,565 --> 00:21:27,404 San Jose picked up from us. It's like 594 00:21:27,724 --> 00:21:30,044 all the sun coverage is is what we 595 00:21:30,044 --> 00:21:32,464 call it in the sales world. Yep. Exactly. 596 00:21:33,139 --> 00:21:34,980 And so Saturdays and Sundays had to be 597 00:21:34,980 --> 00:21:36,839 covered. And there were people 598 00:21:37,380 --> 00:21:37,880 who 599 00:21:38,740 --> 00:21:39,720 were written up 600 00:21:40,179 --> 00:21:40,679 negatively 601 00:21:41,619 --> 00:21:43,700 on their reviews because they would not take 602 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:45,240 Saturdays and Sunday shifts. 603 00:21:47,795 --> 00:21:49,634 They were like, we offer you x amount 604 00:21:49,634 --> 00:21:51,154 of money to work on a Saturday or 605 00:21:51,154 --> 00:21:52,375 Sunday. What's the problem? 606 00:21:52,674 --> 00:21:53,575 And they're like, 607 00:21:53,875 --> 00:21:55,095 they're called children. 608 00:22:01,299 --> 00:22:03,960 Those sweet angels aren't problems. Russ. 609 00:22:06,980 --> 00:22:07,720 You know? 610 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:10,420 It was like, if the youth wanna work 611 00:22:10,420 --> 00:22:12,600 on Saturday and Sunday because they're single, 612 00:22:13,779 --> 00:22:14,759 great for them. 613 00:22:15,875 --> 00:22:18,035 But leave us old folk alone. We have 614 00:22:18,035 --> 00:22:18,535 kids. 615 00:22:19,234 --> 00:22:19,734 Right? 616 00:22:20,275 --> 00:22:22,195 And I don't know how much the IT 617 00:22:22,195 --> 00:22:24,775 world accepts or understands that 618 00:22:25,075 --> 00:22:26,134 at a lot of companies. 619 00:22:26,515 --> 00:22:28,215 It feels a lot like they don't, 620 00:22:29,475 --> 00:22:30,535 especially now. 621 00:22:31,019 --> 00:22:33,019 But I don't know. So maybe that's a 622 00:22:33,019 --> 00:22:33,519 component 623 00:22:33,820 --> 00:22:34,640 of the whole 624 00:22:35,019 --> 00:22:37,599 we're not raising up you the ute. 625 00:22:41,180 --> 00:22:43,359 Well, I also think there is 626 00:22:44,724 --> 00:22:46,264 a youthful confidence 627 00:22:47,764 --> 00:22:48,264 that, 628 00:22:50,565 --> 00:22:51,065 fades 629 00:22:51,444 --> 00:22:52,264 over time. 630 00:22:52,964 --> 00:22:56,024 It it it eventually gets replaced by 631 00:22:57,059 --> 00:22:57,880 a sturdier 632 00:22:58,419 --> 00:22:59,480 set of wisdom. 633 00:22:59,859 --> 00:23:00,919 Right? Cynicism. 634 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:05,000 But, 635 00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:06,119 you know, 636 00:23:06,819 --> 00:23:07,220 there 637 00:23:08,179 --> 00:23:08,919 I remember 638 00:23:09,474 --> 00:23:11,954 like, raising my hand and thinking, I will 639 00:23:11,954 --> 00:23:14,855 do that. How hard could it be? Yes. 640 00:23:15,714 --> 00:23:16,454 You know? 641 00:23:16,914 --> 00:23:18,674 And then you get into it and you're 642 00:23:18,674 --> 00:23:19,815 like, oh, 643 00:23:20,595 --> 00:23:23,014 maybe I shouldn't have raised my hand 644 00:23:24,194 --> 00:23:26,569 for this thing in this time frame. 645 00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:29,369 A lot of that's part of the process 646 00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:31,589 though, and and I I think that the 647 00:23:31,589 --> 00:23:32,490 challenge is 648 00:23:33,349 --> 00:23:33,849 not 649 00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:36,869 leaning on that wisdom when it's available to 650 00:23:36,869 --> 00:23:39,190 go, oh, you know what? This might not 651 00:23:39,190 --> 00:23:41,085 be the right way to do it. The 652 00:23:41,085 --> 00:23:41,825 other thing 653 00:23:42,204 --> 00:23:43,664 that those of us who 654 00:23:43,964 --> 00:23:45,644 are been around a little longer, a little 655 00:23:45,644 --> 00:23:47,964 bit more cynical, is, like, we can't always 656 00:23:47,964 --> 00:23:50,065 show up and say, grumble, grumble. 657 00:23:50,444 --> 00:23:52,384 No. That won't work. Grumble, grumble. 658 00:23:53,005 --> 00:23:54,784 And then go back into our hole. 659 00:23:55,109 --> 00:23:55,609 Right? 660 00:23:57,109 --> 00:23:59,109 That's why that's what I want my job 661 00:23:59,109 --> 00:24:00,250 to be, Yvonne. 662 00:24:00,789 --> 00:24:01,849 I want to be 663 00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:04,069 the cranky old man who sits in a 664 00:24:04,069 --> 00:24:04,569 quarter 665 00:24:05,509 --> 00:24:07,049 next to my frog lamp 666 00:24:07,454 --> 00:24:09,694 and just sits there. And then somebody walks 667 00:24:09,694 --> 00:24:10,434 up and says, 668 00:24:10,815 --> 00:24:13,694 will this work? And you say, no. Now 669 00:24:13,694 --> 00:24:15,714 go away. Moron, go drive, man. 670 00:24:19,934 --> 00:24:21,775 I had this friend, Doc Slice, who always 671 00:24:21,775 --> 00:24:23,630 said, I wanna be the world's number one 672 00:24:23,630 --> 00:24:25,569 expert on a protocol nobody uses. 673 00:24:27,789 --> 00:24:29,390 So you can't fire me because I'm the 674 00:24:29,390 --> 00:24:31,089 only expert in the world, but 675 00:24:31,869 --> 00:24:33,549 no one uses it, so I have no 676 00:24:33,549 --> 00:24:34,704 customers. See, 677 00:24:35,325 --> 00:24:35,825 that's 678 00:24:38,045 --> 00:24:39,664 Ethan is pondering that 679 00:24:40,125 --> 00:24:42,684 very deeply. Well, I'm I'm I'm I'm going 680 00:24:42,684 --> 00:24:44,444 through the different, the way you set up 681 00:24:44,444 --> 00:24:47,505 the problem and you're complaining about network engineers 682 00:24:47,565 --> 00:24:49,424 that are, you know, up and coming and 683 00:24:49,769 --> 00:24:52,670 should have some level of knowledge, but lack 684 00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:54,890 depth in in the sense of they don't 685 00:24:54,890 --> 00:24:57,529 have as broad experience as I'm worried about 686 00:24:57,529 --> 00:24:59,930 it. I'm worried about it because I'm worried 687 00:24:59,930 --> 00:25:01,690 about where the field goes from this. But 688 00:25:01,690 --> 00:25:02,750 go ahead. Sorry, Ethan. 689 00:25:04,035 --> 00:25:04,755 Well, I 690 00:25:05,235 --> 00:25:07,315 you know, the journeyman thing or the intern 691 00:25:07,315 --> 00:25:09,475 thing or however you wanna describe it. Right. 692 00:25:09,475 --> 00:25:11,475 That's that's a challenge that's been in our 693 00:25:11,475 --> 00:25:13,715 industry for a long time and that what 694 00:25:13,715 --> 00:25:14,934 being a network engineer 695 00:25:15,394 --> 00:25:17,634 means is different from what it means to 696 00:25:17,634 --> 00:25:18,134 be 697 00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:19,059 a, 698 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,619 on the road to becoming a master electrician, 699 00:25:21,759 --> 00:25:24,019 which is a defined path, and there's, 700 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:28,240 regulations around that and and so on. There's 701 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:30,480 nothing like that and hasn't been in networking. 702 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,319 We've this is a conversation that's happened, you 703 00:25:32,319 --> 00:25:35,065 know, many times before where we call ourselves 704 00:25:35,065 --> 00:25:36,664 engineers, but that's not what that means to 705 00:25:36,664 --> 00:25:38,664 other people who call themselves engineers. It's kind 706 00:25:38,664 --> 00:25:39,724 of a different thing. 707 00:25:40,105 --> 00:25:41,384 So what is the path? I mean, there 708 00:25:41,384 --> 00:25:43,884 is no path, and and companies aren't 709 00:25:44,424 --> 00:25:45,644 financially incentivized 710 00:25:46,105 --> 00:25:47,865 to have you 711 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,359 that young person, younger person come in and 712 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:52,019 be mentored. 713 00:25:53,919 --> 00:25:54,419 There's 714 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,659 some talk that 715 00:25:57,759 --> 00:25:59,299 AI is gonna take away 716 00:25:59,599 --> 00:26:02,880 those entry level positions that you would use 717 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,515 as your stepping stone to get 718 00:26:04,994 --> 00:26:05,494 your 719 00:26:05,875 --> 00:26:08,855 to get that knowledge, that baseline foundational knowledge, 720 00:26:09,875 --> 00:26:10,695 that you need. 721 00:26:12,674 --> 00:26:15,394 And that's what the ultimate impact of AI 722 00:26:15,394 --> 00:26:16,835 will be on those roles, I think, is 723 00:26:16,835 --> 00:26:18,275 to be determined. And I think there's a 724 00:26:18,275 --> 00:26:20,609 lot of excitement and hyperbole around it at 725 00:26:20,609 --> 00:26:23,269 the moment, but it'll have some impact, 726 00:26:23,569 --> 00:26:24,149 I think. 727 00:26:24,529 --> 00:26:25,669 Hard to say what. 728 00:26:26,529 --> 00:26:28,529 I think it's gonna exacerbate the or ex 729 00:26:28,690 --> 00:26:30,450 exasperate the problem or whatever you say. It's 730 00:26:30,529 --> 00:26:32,295 I think it's gonna make the problem worse 731 00:26:32,375 --> 00:26:33,894 Because like you said, I think it's gonna 732 00:26:33,894 --> 00:26:35,975 knock out some of the first rungs of 733 00:26:35,975 --> 00:26:36,555 the ladder. 734 00:26:37,414 --> 00:26:39,174 Yeah. Whether it's the first three rungs or 735 00:26:39,174 --> 00:26:41,255 the first five rungs, I don't know. But 736 00:26:41,255 --> 00:26:42,775 I think it's actually gonna knock it. It's 737 00:26:42,775 --> 00:26:45,035 gonna make this problem I'm talking about worse. 738 00:26:47,289 --> 00:26:48,990 Another challenge that 739 00:26:50,250 --> 00:26:52,410 we benefit from as an industry having people 740 00:26:52,410 --> 00:26:55,529 with broad experiences that many networks are implemented 741 00:26:55,529 --> 00:26:57,529 in in in different ways. Now, Russ, you're 742 00:26:57,529 --> 00:26:58,029 saying, 743 00:26:58,730 --> 00:27:01,070 everybody's running BGP everywhere. Well, 744 00:27:01,525 --> 00:27:03,684 yes and no. It all depends on, where 745 00:27:03,684 --> 00:27:06,404 they're at. The smaller networks, probably probably not. 746 00:27:06,404 --> 00:27:08,565 There'd be less motivation for them to have 747 00:27:08,565 --> 00:27:09,304 done that. 748 00:27:09,684 --> 00:27:10,585 Larger networks, 749 00:27:10,884 --> 00:27:12,164 it doesn't seem to be the way a 750 00:27:12,164 --> 00:27:13,545 lot of shops have gone. 751 00:27:14,565 --> 00:27:15,785 So another question 752 00:27:16,619 --> 00:27:19,660 is what technologies and networking are aging out 753 00:27:19,660 --> 00:27:20,220 that we 754 00:27:20,859 --> 00:27:22,960 do we not need to really 755 00:27:23,579 --> 00:27:25,839 be as concerned about a link state protocol? 756 00:27:25,980 --> 00:27:26,480 Because 757 00:27:27,019 --> 00:27:29,204 we've kinda standardized on, this is the way 758 00:27:29,204 --> 00:27:30,804 we build the data center these days on 759 00:27:30,804 --> 00:27:32,265 BGP, and we can argue 760 00:27:33,365 --> 00:27:35,125 those of us with, you know, the the 761 00:27:35,125 --> 00:27:36,884 gray in our hair about I was gonna 762 00:27:36,884 --> 00:27:38,565 say beard, but, Yvonne, you don't have one. 763 00:27:38,565 --> 00:27:39,865 Mercifully. Thank you. 764 00:27:41,444 --> 00:27:42,265 For now. 765 00:27:44,990 --> 00:27:46,609 There's still a chance, man. 766 00:27:50,029 --> 00:27:51,089 But the Oh my goodness. 767 00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:52,169 But, 768 00:27:52,750 --> 00:27:54,669 you know, to me, the technology stack is 769 00:27:54,669 --> 00:27:57,009 so huge, especially when considering history. 770 00:27:57,704 --> 00:27:59,625 Like, Rusty, would you hold it against someone 771 00:27:59,625 --> 00:28:02,105 that they don't know anything about AppleTalk, IPX, 772 00:28:02,105 --> 00:28:03,565 or DECnet? Yes. 773 00:28:04,904 --> 00:28:08,025 But, obviously, that those are irrelevant technology. I 774 00:28:08,025 --> 00:28:10,025 would. I actually wouldn't because those are old 775 00:28:10,025 --> 00:28:11,884 technologies nobody uses anymore. 776 00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:14,009 And you can learn, I think, 777 00:28:14,390 --> 00:28:17,210 most of the same lessons about protocol design 778 00:28:17,349 --> 00:28:18,410 through other protocols. 779 00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:21,990 Right? Like, I do I do think there's 780 00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:22,490 some 781 00:28:23,190 --> 00:28:25,769 value in having learned a frame relay 782 00:28:26,355 --> 00:28:26,855 and 783 00:28:27,394 --> 00:28:29,954 ATM way back in the day. But the 784 00:28:29,954 --> 00:28:31,795 value is is when you come to me 785 00:28:31,795 --> 00:28:33,494 with the broadcast and unknown 786 00:28:33,954 --> 00:28:34,454 network 787 00:28:35,075 --> 00:28:36,375 in the Bums traffic, 788 00:28:37,154 --> 00:28:38,454 broadcast and then multicast 789 00:28:38,835 --> 00:28:39,335 in 790 00:28:39,634 --> 00:28:40,134 EVPN. 791 00:28:40,980 --> 00:28:42,660 You just wanna say that. I know you 792 00:28:42,660 --> 00:28:44,440 did. Yeah. I did. I just wanna say 793 00:28:44,500 --> 00:28:45,000 that. 794 00:28:46,019 --> 00:28:46,500 It is 795 00:28:47,619 --> 00:28:49,940 I grasp it, like, twice as fast as 796 00:28:49,940 --> 00:28:52,039 anybody else because it's the same thing. 797 00:28:53,134 --> 00:28:53,634 Yeah. 798 00:28:53,934 --> 00:28:56,654 Right? Yeah. Yvonne Papaniac wrote a post about 799 00:28:56,654 --> 00:28:58,815 how ultra Ethernet is like x dot 20 800 00:28:58,894 --> 00:29:00,974 it's the reinvention of x dot 25. It 801 00:29:00,974 --> 00:29:03,294 is. He made his points of comparisons. Yeah. 802 00:29:03,294 --> 00:29:04,595 Yeah. It's the same thing. 803 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,720 So yeah. So I think there's value in 804 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,279 having that experience, but I understand that that 805 00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:12,759 experience that type of experience is gonna age 806 00:29:12,759 --> 00:29:14,460 out. That's just gonna happen. 807 00:29:16,039 --> 00:29:17,740 But I mean, on the Internet globally, 808 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,325 like, when we did the issue of networking, 809 00:29:21,325 --> 00:29:23,884 Paul Micropetrius was still around. Paul Vixie was 810 00:29:23,884 --> 00:29:25,904 still around. A lot of these people, 811 00:29:27,005 --> 00:29:27,904 were still around, 812 00:29:28,365 --> 00:29:29,585 and now 813 00:29:30,044 --> 00:29:31,184 some of them aren't. 814 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,960 And so I wonder how much knowledge we're 815 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,220 losing, and I wonder about 816 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:39,640 and and maybe network engineering just doesn't need 817 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,460 as as broader knowledge anymore. Maybe it's just 818 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:44,860 everybody standardizes and, 819 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:45,900 you know, 820 00:29:46,515 --> 00:29:47,734 it becomes a less 821 00:29:49,075 --> 00:29:52,434 intellectually deep field just because of the way 822 00:29:52,434 --> 00:29:53,974 the network engineering works. 823 00:29:54,275 --> 00:29:55,654 If everybody can standardize 824 00:29:56,994 --> 00:29:59,634 one or two or three ways to deal 825 00:29:59,634 --> 00:30:01,095 with a network, 826 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,319 it gets easier to automate it, and it 827 00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:05,579 gets easier to apply AI to the configuration 828 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,759 and design problem and specific other problems that 829 00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:10,440 come in where you want AI to look 830 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,319 at changing network conditions and make changes because 831 00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:15,740 you've bounded what the network's gonna look like. 832 00:30:16,085 --> 00:30:18,025 And that, I think, just having 833 00:30:18,644 --> 00:30:21,285 boundaries on what a net how a network 834 00:30:21,285 --> 00:30:23,684 has been configured, what its topology looks like 835 00:30:23,684 --> 00:30:24,585 means that 836 00:30:25,125 --> 00:30:27,525 applying software to the problem gets a bit 837 00:30:27,525 --> 00:30:29,525 easier. There's a lot fewer corner cases you 838 00:30:29,525 --> 00:30:32,220 gotta code for and consider. Yeah. But then 839 00:30:32,220 --> 00:30:34,299 that worries me in a different direction, which 840 00:30:34,299 --> 00:30:36,859 is that, like Yvonne said, somebody says I'm 841 00:30:36,859 --> 00:30:37,839 gonna do this, 842 00:30:38,539 --> 00:30:39,679 and there's nobody 843 00:30:40,779 --> 00:30:43,660 in ten years perhaps who can say, oh, 844 00:30:43,660 --> 00:30:45,599 yeah. We tried that before and, really, 845 00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:47,359 that didn't work very well. 846 00:30:48,065 --> 00:30:50,164 That's every IETF meeting, though. 847 00:30:50,704 --> 00:30:51,845 You know what I mean? 848 00:30:55,025 --> 00:30:56,865 It's it's it's folks that are standing up, 849 00:30:56,865 --> 00:30:58,305 and if there's not the right person in 850 00:30:58,305 --> 00:30:59,744 the room to say, yeah. We tried that 851 00:30:59,744 --> 00:31:01,200 before. No. Then 852 00:31:02,299 --> 00:31:04,779 Well, and and there's that there's that saying 853 00:31:04,779 --> 00:31:07,100 that history doesn't repeat itself, but it does 854 00:31:07,100 --> 00:31:09,500 rhyme. I mean, there there is sort of 855 00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:10,720 this human condition 856 00:31:11,180 --> 00:31:11,680 of 857 00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:14,240 people making the same mistakes 858 00:31:14,744 --> 00:31:16,424 every, you know, from a from a, you 859 00:31:16,424 --> 00:31:19,785 know, political or government perspective, every couple hundred 860 00:31:19,785 --> 00:31:21,484 years, you see the same ideology 861 00:31:21,785 --> 00:31:24,345 emerging with the same impacts. I so I 862 00:31:24,345 --> 00:31:26,345 think some of that is is just gonna 863 00:31:26,345 --> 00:31:26,845 happen. 864 00:31:28,529 --> 00:31:30,789 And and I also think, like 865 00:31:31,089 --> 00:31:32,309 like Ethan said, 866 00:31:33,250 --> 00:31:35,109 that there is value in standardization. 867 00:31:36,289 --> 00:31:39,009 I think that the the thing that I 868 00:31:39,009 --> 00:31:40,929 feel like we've lost a lot of is 869 00:31:40,929 --> 00:31:41,429 that 870 00:31:42,154 --> 00:31:43,454 full stack connection, 871 00:31:43,994 --> 00:31:46,394 which is like all the way down to 872 00:31:46,394 --> 00:31:47,534 the hardware layer. 873 00:31:48,234 --> 00:31:50,894 What is, you know, what are the fundamentals 874 00:31:51,034 --> 00:31:52,714 that we have to have in hardware to 875 00:31:52,714 --> 00:31:54,714 get the performance that we need and how 876 00:31:54,714 --> 00:31:55,980 do we scale that? 877 00:31:56,859 --> 00:31:58,880 Because I feel like a lot we've abstracted 878 00:31:59,019 --> 00:32:00,319 so much that 879 00:32:00,619 --> 00:32:02,720 a lot of people never ever ever ever 880 00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:04,319 think about 881 00:32:04,940 --> 00:32:06,240 that from a performance 882 00:32:06,619 --> 00:32:07,119 standpoint. 883 00:32:07,819 --> 00:32:09,419 And we will a hunger for that kind 884 00:32:09,419 --> 00:32:11,774 of knowledge, though. I will I will say 885 00:32:11,774 --> 00:32:12,755 that looking at, 886 00:32:14,255 --> 00:32:15,075 packet pushers, 887 00:32:15,375 --> 00:32:18,095 heavy networking statistics and the sorts of shows 888 00:32:18,095 --> 00:32:18,835 that people 889 00:32:19,134 --> 00:32:21,375 listen to, what what downloads are popular. One 890 00:32:21,375 --> 00:32:22,815 of the most popular shows we did in 891 00:32:22,815 --> 00:32:24,414 the last, I don't know, year or eighteen 892 00:32:24,414 --> 00:32:26,570 months was how does a packet move through 893 00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:28,670 a switch? And we did a a fairly 894 00:32:28,970 --> 00:32:30,509 heavy discussion of that. 895 00:32:30,970 --> 00:32:31,869 So it's not 896 00:32:32,970 --> 00:32:35,769 as if people don't want to know. There 897 00:32:35,769 --> 00:32:37,850 there is a thirst for that kind of 898 00:32:37,850 --> 00:32:38,350 knowledge. 899 00:32:39,025 --> 00:32:41,585 So maybe it comes back to a question 900 00:32:41,585 --> 00:32:44,404 of, of training again and how do you 901 00:32:46,384 --> 00:32:47,904 for us, it's the age old problem. We 902 00:32:47,984 --> 00:32:49,825 we've we've had this discussion over the years 903 00:32:49,825 --> 00:32:51,950 too. Is there something like a a vendor 904 00:32:51,950 --> 00:32:53,009 independent certification 905 00:32:53,309 --> 00:32:55,309 that would, take us down this road and 906 00:32:55,309 --> 00:32:57,390 and be broadly applicable for all the vendors 907 00:32:57,390 --> 00:32:59,490 where they'd all be happy that this certification 908 00:32:59,710 --> 00:33:01,470 exists? I would I would love for that 909 00:33:01,470 --> 00:33:02,990 to happen. I mean, I don't know. I'm 910 00:33:02,990 --> 00:33:04,375 not seeing it all the time in my 911 00:33:04,375 --> 00:33:06,134 training. So I do a three or four 912 00:33:06,134 --> 00:33:08,454 hour class now in how routing's routers really 913 00:33:08,454 --> 00:33:08,954 work. 914 00:33:09,255 --> 00:33:11,095 It was I can do six hours or 915 00:33:11,095 --> 00:33:12,474 eight hours on that topic. 916 00:33:13,095 --> 00:33:13,595 But 917 00:33:14,535 --> 00:33:16,934 the attendance of that class is no more 918 00:33:16,934 --> 00:33:17,434 than 919 00:33:18,900 --> 00:33:19,400 like 920 00:33:20,099 --> 00:33:21,779 the class I get the most people for 921 00:33:21,779 --> 00:33:23,320 is how the Internet really works. 922 00:33:24,420 --> 00:33:26,279 That's literally the biggest seller 923 00:33:26,820 --> 00:33:29,460 in my in my stable of classes that 924 00:33:29,460 --> 00:33:31,859 I teach. Keyword selling, whereas I'm giving a 925 00:33:31,859 --> 00:33:33,480 podcast away for free, 926 00:33:33,795 --> 00:33:35,475 and people pick and choose what they wanna 927 00:33:35,475 --> 00:33:36,775 listen to because we're publishing, 928 00:33:37,315 --> 00:33:38,914 more content than they can listen to and 929 00:33:38,914 --> 00:33:40,134 they need to be selective. 930 00:33:40,835 --> 00:33:42,355 They can just pick a talk. Oh, that's 931 00:33:42,355 --> 00:33:44,595 interesting. I wanna see that. As opposed to 932 00:33:44,595 --> 00:33:46,950 someone who's paying for a class and or 933 00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:47,769 choosing 934 00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:51,289 paid training that drives them towards a professional 935 00:33:51,429 --> 00:33:52,569 goal such 936 00:33:53,109 --> 00:33:55,429 as a certification that they think will help 937 00:33:55,429 --> 00:33:56,730 them get a better job. 938 00:33:58,069 --> 00:33:59,690 Well, I wonder if the certifications 939 00:34:00,069 --> 00:34:02,914 themselves haven't hurt us in the area of 940 00:34:02,914 --> 00:34:03,894 breadth of knowledge. 941 00:34:05,715 --> 00:34:06,695 How do you mean? 942 00:34:07,154 --> 00:34:09,335 Oh, they're very vendor specific. 943 00:34:10,355 --> 00:34:12,054 They're very task oriented. 944 00:34:12,434 --> 00:34:14,034 I mean, when I came up, we have 945 00:34:14,034 --> 00:34:16,775 the CCIE, then we have the CCIE security. 946 00:34:17,289 --> 00:34:18,109 We have the CCDE. 947 00:34:18,809 --> 00:34:20,750 And for some period of time, the CCAR 948 00:34:20,969 --> 00:34:22,489 by the way, I got I I got 949 00:34:22,489 --> 00:34:23,690 an email the other day that they were 950 00:34:23,690 --> 00:34:25,609 looking for a CCAR for a particular role 951 00:34:25,609 --> 00:34:27,769 at a particular company. And every time I 952 00:34:27,769 --> 00:34:29,835 get these emails, I'm like, I'm not really 953 00:34:29,835 --> 00:34:31,835 sure what to tell you. Like, there's there's 954 00:34:31,835 --> 00:34:33,195 12 of them or 10 of them or 955 00:34:33,195 --> 00:34:35,135 something. Gonna say there were never more than 956 00:34:35,434 --> 00:34:37,275 I didn't think it's 20. I'd ever even 957 00:34:37,275 --> 00:34:39,355 achieved that goal. No. It's it's more it's 958 00:34:39,355 --> 00:34:41,275 it's between eight and twelve, I think. I 959 00:34:41,275 --> 00:34:42,414 I don't remember exactly. 960 00:34:43,059 --> 00:34:45,239 But In the world. In the world. Yes. 961 00:34:45,299 --> 00:34:47,539 So I'm like, well, good luck finding one 962 00:34:47,539 --> 00:34:48,119 of those. 963 00:34:50,980 --> 00:34:52,659 Who's willing to take your job? I don't 964 00:34:52,659 --> 00:34:54,260 know. You know, it just seems crazy to 965 00:34:54,260 --> 00:34:56,519 me. But anyway yeah. You know? 966 00:34:57,545 --> 00:35:00,744 But I believe that as the certifications have 967 00:35:00,744 --> 00:35:01,805 become narrower, 968 00:35:02,905 --> 00:35:05,485 and as they have become more focused on 969 00:35:06,105 --> 00:35:09,244 interacting with vendor gear and product, 970 00:35:10,559 --> 00:35:12,579 they have actually lost their breath. 971 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,719 Holly has complained about this, my and it's 972 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,480 for networking cohost, and that she's done a 973 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,660 whole bunch of certs in the Juniper ecosystem. 974 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,119 And she says they're great about teaching you 975 00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:25,605 how to configure things, how to stand up 976 00:35:25,605 --> 00:35:27,684 this service, how to make the box go 977 00:35:27,684 --> 00:35:28,184 wee, 978 00:35:28,724 --> 00:35:30,724 but not about the theory behind it and 979 00:35:30,724 --> 00:35:32,804 and what else is going on. I I'm 980 00:35:32,804 --> 00:35:35,684 beginning to work through the CCNA blueprint just 981 00:35:35,684 --> 00:35:37,679 to see what Cisco wants you to know. 982 00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:40,320 I actually bought their the current official exam 983 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,840 guide because I I wanna get caught up 984 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,840 on where this program is at in, in 985 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:44,980 2025 986 00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:48,000 and see what they're teaching. Because I've heard 987 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,359 this complaint that, that what you're exactly describing, 988 00:35:51,359 --> 00:35:54,135 Russ, that the the certifications have gotten too 989 00:35:54,135 --> 00:35:56,075 vendor specific, too focused on 990 00:35:56,535 --> 00:35:59,094 vendor gear and their way of doing things 991 00:35:59,094 --> 00:36:01,894 as opposed to broad network knowledge, which those 992 00:36:01,894 --> 00:36:03,815 of us that cut our teeth on Cisco 993 00:36:03,815 --> 00:36:04,315 certifications, 994 00:36:05,019 --> 00:36:07,420 that is how we learned by and large 995 00:36:07,420 --> 00:36:08,400 what we know 996 00:36:08,780 --> 00:36:10,940 for our foundation. And what you need to 997 00:36:10,940 --> 00:36:13,340 know. And what you need to know. Right? 998 00:36:13,340 --> 00:36:16,480 Like, that that cert program would tell you 999 00:36:17,019 --> 00:36:18,800 things that you didn't even know existed, 1000 00:36:19,235 --> 00:36:20,755 but that you needed to know. Let's say 1001 00:36:20,755 --> 00:36:23,554 you weren't running OSPF in your work network. 1002 00:36:23,554 --> 00:36:24,934 You're running the AGRP, 1003 00:36:25,474 --> 00:36:27,875 but your certification track would help you see 1004 00:36:27,875 --> 00:36:30,534 that, oh, there is this protocol called OSPF. 1005 00:36:31,074 --> 00:36:32,215 It works differently. 1006 00:36:32,660 --> 00:36:34,099 It's a thing I need to know to 1007 00:36:34,099 --> 00:36:35,320 get my certification. 1008 00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:37,559 And so at least you had some exposure 1009 00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:39,000 to it. Right? 1010 00:36:39,860 --> 00:36:41,940 And I think that's been a thing that's 1011 00:36:41,940 --> 00:36:44,500 been lost maybe. Yeah. I would agree. I 1012 00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:46,280 think it is something that's been lost. 1013 00:36:46,635 --> 00:36:48,155 So yeah. I mean, I don't think we're 1014 00:36:48,155 --> 00:36:49,914 gonna solve it. I was just curious what 1015 00:36:49,914 --> 00:36:51,534 everybody thought were the 1016 00:36:52,074 --> 00:36:54,235 drivers. Like, is this really happening? Am I 1017 00:36:54,235 --> 00:36:54,735 crazy? 1018 00:36:55,195 --> 00:36:56,875 To some degree, you're both saying, yeah, you're 1019 00:36:56,875 --> 00:36:58,315 a little bit crazy, Russ. You know, you've 1020 00:36:58,315 --> 00:37:00,279 been at this for thirty years, and what 1021 00:37:00,279 --> 00:37:00,859 you think 1022 00:37:01,319 --> 00:37:02,859 is depth is is. 1023 00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:06,279 But I think you have, on some level, 1024 00:37:06,279 --> 00:37:09,319 some some perhaps unrealistic expectations of people both 1025 00:37:09,319 --> 00:37:11,239 of their age and then because you are 1026 00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:12,219 who you are. 1027 00:37:12,534 --> 00:37:14,695 You to think you're the the the color 1028 00:37:14,695 --> 00:37:16,614 of the lenses through which you look is 1029 00:37:16,614 --> 00:37:17,094 a bit, 1030 00:37:17,894 --> 00:37:19,755 yeah, it tints things kinda heavy. 1031 00:37:21,255 --> 00:37:22,394 Do you agree, Yvonne? 1032 00:37:23,494 --> 00:37:24,155 I think 1033 00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:25,210 for 1034 00:37:25,510 --> 00:37:28,730 you, depth means something different than it means 1035 00:37:28,949 --> 00:37:30,329 to the average bear. 1036 00:37:30,949 --> 00:37:33,369 Just just because for you, 1037 00:37:33,989 --> 00:37:35,690 things that are really deep and interesting 1038 00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:37,369 are almost 1039 00:37:37,989 --> 00:37:38,489 unreachable 1040 00:37:39,109 --> 00:37:41,885 for somebody who's been in the business for 1041 00:37:41,885 --> 00:37:42,625 ten years. 1042 00:37:43,005 --> 00:37:44,784 Yeah. Could be. That could be. 1043 00:37:45,644 --> 00:37:46,925 But it doesn't But I don't I don't 1044 00:37:46,925 --> 00:37:49,085 think you're generally wrong in, 1045 00:37:49,565 --> 00:37:51,565 hey, like there's there's a gap and there 1046 00:37:51,565 --> 00:37:52,864 are these things missing 1047 00:37:53,164 --> 00:37:53,664 and 1048 00:37:54,079 --> 00:37:55,840 there's a whole universe of knowledge that people 1049 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,860 need that they don't even know. It's 1050 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,800 it's not exactly Dunning Kruger, but kind of 1051 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:02,639 kind of in that family. Like, there's so 1052 00:38:02,639 --> 00:38:04,079 much to need to you need to know. 1053 00:38:04,079 --> 00:38:05,840 You don't even know all the like, you 1054 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,000 don't even have your list right yet of 1055 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:09,954 all the things you need to know. Right? 1056 00:38:09,954 --> 00:38:11,675 Yeah. And that and that I think is 1057 00:38:11,675 --> 00:38:12,574 part of the problem. 1058 00:38:12,875 --> 00:38:13,614 Is that 1059 00:38:13,994 --> 00:38:16,074 as Ethan said, and as you said, Yvonne, 1060 00:38:16,074 --> 00:38:17,594 actually, I think Yvonne said at first was 1061 00:38:17,594 --> 00:38:19,675 that, you know, the the certifications used to 1062 00:38:19,675 --> 00:38:21,355 be a road map over what people who've 1063 00:38:21,355 --> 00:38:23,035 been in the business a lot longer than 1064 00:38:23,035 --> 00:38:25,130 you thought you need to know. What is 1065 00:38:25,130 --> 00:38:26,809 the body of knowledge you need? What's the 1066 00:38:26,809 --> 00:38:27,630 mental map? 1067 00:38:28,090 --> 00:38:29,550 I don't think they're that anymore. 1068 00:38:30,010 --> 00:38:32,030 I don't think such mental maps exist. 1069 00:38:32,890 --> 00:38:34,030 And I I think 1070 00:38:34,970 --> 00:38:35,470 Microsoft 1071 00:38:35,930 --> 00:38:36,430 probably 1072 00:38:36,914 --> 00:38:39,635 was the the first company that I realized 1073 00:38:39,635 --> 00:38:40,934 they were doing this. 1074 00:38:41,235 --> 00:38:42,295 But their certifications 1075 00:38:42,755 --> 00:38:45,335 were as much a marketing tool 1076 00:38:46,275 --> 00:38:48,295 as a technical enablement. 1077 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,640 That because I I remember taking a Microsoft 1078 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,440 certification where the answer to every networking question 1079 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:55,980 was routing and remote access 1080 00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,559 regardless of what the question was. Right? What 1081 00:38:59,559 --> 00:39:01,480 do you use for this routing and remote 1082 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,304 access? There was never a, oh, you need 1083 00:39:04,304 --> 00:39:05,664 to do this at a different place in 1084 00:39:05,664 --> 00:39:06,405 the stack. 1085 00:39:06,864 --> 00:39:07,364 Right? 1086 00:39:08,224 --> 00:39:09,364 And I think they, 1087 00:39:09,984 --> 00:39:12,244 in air quotes, innovated there. 1088 00:39:14,784 --> 00:39:15,264 And, 1089 00:39:15,905 --> 00:39:17,284 and that that is 1090 00:39:17,744 --> 00:39:18,565 kind of a 1091 00:39:18,969 --> 00:39:21,769 course of action that that organizations have taken 1092 00:39:21,769 --> 00:39:24,329 because, like, hey, certification problems are expensive. Like, 1093 00:39:24,329 --> 00:39:26,430 what's the ROI on it? Well, the ROI 1094 00:39:26,489 --> 00:39:28,090 on it is that we have an army 1095 00:39:28,090 --> 00:39:30,269 of people who are familiar with our stuff, 1096 00:39:30,410 --> 00:39:32,349 who are gonna pitch it to their leadership 1097 00:39:32,570 --> 00:39:33,070 to 1098 00:39:33,434 --> 00:39:34,875 install it. And so now we have an 1099 00:39:34,875 --> 00:39:37,755 army of internal salespeople that are certified on 1100 00:39:37,755 --> 00:39:39,835 our stuff, that are gonna wanna deploy the 1101 00:39:39,835 --> 00:39:41,914 next best thing because they're certified in our 1102 00:39:41,914 --> 00:39:42,414 stuff. 1103 00:39:42,954 --> 00:39:44,635 That was the Cisco model back in the 1104 00:39:44,635 --> 00:39:46,074 day, and I believe it is a big 1105 00:39:46,074 --> 00:39:47,969 part of the reason Cisco has been as 1106 00:39:48,050 --> 00:39:49,989 successful as they've been over the decades. 1107 00:39:50,289 --> 00:39:51,590 They're still the juggernaut. 1108 00:39:52,210 --> 00:39:54,769 It's a different vibe now in 2025 than 1109 00:39:54,769 --> 00:39:57,109 it was even ten years ago. But 1110 00:39:57,570 --> 00:40:00,210 but, yeah, that model exactly what you described, 1111 00:40:00,210 --> 00:40:02,369 Yvonne. I was one of those people. Started 1112 00:40:02,369 --> 00:40:02,869 out 1113 00:40:03,174 --> 00:40:05,574 working for a Cisco partner and then getting 1114 00:40:05,574 --> 00:40:06,954 a CCNA and then 1115 00:40:07,815 --> 00:40:08,315 migrating, 1116 00:40:08,775 --> 00:40:11,194 my talents to wherever I was at, 1117 00:40:11,974 --> 00:40:13,894 some company that needed that was a Cisco 1118 00:40:13,894 --> 00:40:15,974 shop and then doing Cisco things and buying 1119 00:40:15,974 --> 00:40:17,894 more Cisco stuff, talking to my Cisco rep 1120 00:40:17,894 --> 00:40:18,360 because that's 1121 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:20,552 what I knew. And someone said, I think 1122 00:40:20,552 --> 00:40:21,480 a Juniper box or I think this or 1123 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:22,619 I think that. And I go, 1124 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,880 yeah. I I don't I don't trust that. 1125 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:27,800 System in the front is probably not gonna 1126 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:28,940 work. Right? 1127 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:32,275 That's some of that. Yeah. 1128 00:40:32,735 --> 00:40:34,094 Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's part of 1129 00:40:34,094 --> 00:40:36,015 it. Happy. Buddy, you're up. So you keep 1130 00:40:36,175 --> 00:40:38,255 what's your quarterly spend gonna be? Let's go 1131 00:40:38,255 --> 00:40:40,015 out to lunch. You know? They they buy 1132 00:40:40,015 --> 00:40:41,695 you sushi and tell you how smart you 1133 00:40:41,695 --> 00:40:43,295 are and show you the next thing that 1134 00:40:43,295 --> 00:40:44,859 they have on the truck. No. That's right. 1135 00:40:44,859 --> 00:40:47,019 Sorry. Yeah. That's right. No. It's true. Speaking 1136 00:40:47,019 --> 00:40:48,000 of being jaded. 1137 00:40:49,739 --> 00:40:51,980 Those things happened. That's yeah. It was life 1138 00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:53,900 for a long time. Yeah. It was. And 1139 00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:55,340 then I think the third thing is the 1140 00:40:55,340 --> 00:40:56,480 missing of, 1141 00:40:57,775 --> 00:40:59,855 like, just the roadmap in general. Like, I've 1142 00:40:59,855 --> 00:41:02,015 been trying to build this 40 to 50 1143 00:41:02,015 --> 00:41:03,695 or it's probably gonna be one forty or 1144 00:41:03,695 --> 00:41:04,675 fifty hour course 1145 00:41:05,054 --> 00:41:07,135 of, like, what I think you need to 1146 00:41:07,135 --> 00:41:09,394 know about networking from day zero 1147 00:41:10,210 --> 00:41:12,070 all the way to e the EVPN, 1148 00:41:12,930 --> 00:41:14,530 which I'm It's gonna be more than forty 1149 00:41:14,530 --> 00:41:16,449 or fifty hours, and I'll tell you why. 1150 00:41:16,449 --> 00:41:18,690 I began working on that mental map for 1151 00:41:18,690 --> 00:41:20,610 the n is for networking series, and it 1152 00:41:20,610 --> 00:41:22,130 came up with 250 1153 00:41:22,130 --> 00:41:23,890 topics more or less off the top of 1154 00:41:23,890 --> 00:41:25,775 my head that was kinda stream of consciousness. 1155 00:41:26,554 --> 00:41:27,295 Just building 1156 00:41:27,755 --> 00:41:29,674 high level categories and then here are some 1157 00:41:29,674 --> 00:41:32,474 topics either broad or some specific technical things 1158 00:41:32,474 --> 00:41:33,295 and Yeah. 1159 00:41:33,674 --> 00:41:35,594 And then and kinda like, I I just 1160 00:41:35,594 --> 00:41:37,659 need to stop because there's more. This I 1161 00:41:37,659 --> 00:41:39,420 think there's actually a lot more, but I 1162 00:41:39,420 --> 00:41:41,179 just need to stop now because this is 1163 00:41:41,179 --> 00:41:43,260 five years worth of content if we record 1164 00:41:43,260 --> 00:41:44,400 every week, which is 1165 00:41:44,780 --> 00:41:47,920 daunting. So Yeah. Yeah. We should trade outlines. 1166 00:41:49,980 --> 00:41:51,734 It would be interesting because I know the 1167 00:41:51,734 --> 00:41:53,255 way you think versus how I think. They'd 1168 00:41:53,255 --> 00:41:55,894 be different but compatible out lines. Yeah. Yeah. 1169 00:41:55,894 --> 00:41:57,974 That's that's probably what would happen. Yeah. And 1170 00:41:57,974 --> 00:41:58,954 so there's that 1171 00:41:59,335 --> 00:42:00,934 And maybe the way to think about that 1172 00:42:00,934 --> 00:42:02,714 is how do we group these things 1173 00:42:03,094 --> 00:42:03,594 into 1174 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,880 mental models that translate from one to the 1175 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,640 other. Right? Yeah. Because you know how you 1176 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:09,780 talk about how, 1177 00:42:11,039 --> 00:42:14,960 you know, a newer newer protocols are very 1178 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:15,460 reminiscent 1179 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,414 of of older ones. Right? Like, group things 1180 00:42:18,414 --> 00:42:20,335 together, like, hey. Here's this thing, and here's 1181 00:42:20,335 --> 00:42:22,574 these principles, and they transfer to x y 1182 00:42:22,574 --> 00:42:23,074 z. 1183 00:42:23,375 --> 00:42:26,514 But, that that's a whole another challenge, 1184 00:42:27,375 --> 00:42:30,755 altogether Yeah. And would be fraught with debate. 1185 00:42:31,295 --> 00:42:32,835 Yes. So roadmaps, 1186 00:42:33,969 --> 00:42:34,469 mentoring, 1187 00:42:37,570 --> 00:42:39,489 certification is not playing the role of road 1188 00:42:39,489 --> 00:42:40,309 maps anymore. 1189 00:42:41,010 --> 00:42:41,590 The bottom 1190 00:42:42,210 --> 00:42:44,130 rung ladders of the rung being kicked out 1191 00:42:44,130 --> 00:42:46,050 by AI, which we haven't really talked about, 1192 00:42:46,050 --> 00:42:49,545 but that's, like, being intentional about, from my 1193 00:42:49,545 --> 00:42:52,605 perspective, not using AI to solve basic problems 1194 00:42:53,784 --> 00:42:56,425 for for some period of time or in 1195 00:42:56,425 --> 00:42:59,005 some cases, just so you build the intellectual 1196 00:42:59,144 --> 00:43:00,605 virtue of having the knowledge 1197 00:43:01,250 --> 00:43:03,650 and the skills. Right? It's great to use 1198 00:43:03,650 --> 00:43:05,170 AI as an augment when you're in a 1199 00:43:05,170 --> 00:43:07,170 in a hurry, but maybe you ought not 1200 00:43:07,170 --> 00:43:09,489 use AI when you're building your lab to 1201 00:43:09,489 --> 00:43:12,369 learn OSPF. Maybe that's not the right place 1202 00:43:12,369 --> 00:43:13,589 to use it as AI. 1203 00:43:15,434 --> 00:43:17,135 So maybe all of these things 1204 00:43:18,315 --> 00:43:20,255 together are really passed forward. 1205 00:43:20,555 --> 00:43:23,055 This not really you can't solve this problem 1206 00:43:24,394 --> 00:43:26,235 at all that I can think of. I 1207 00:43:26,235 --> 00:43:27,055 mean, I remember 1208 00:43:27,489 --> 00:43:29,510 when I when I was in global escalation 1209 00:43:29,890 --> 00:43:32,369 at Cisco and I went over to deployment 1210 00:43:32,369 --> 00:43:32,869 architecture, 1211 00:43:33,410 --> 00:43:34,930 one of the reasons I moved out of 1212 00:43:34,930 --> 00:43:37,110 global escalation at attack and into engineering 1213 00:43:37,570 --> 00:43:40,309 was because somebody set me aside and said, 1214 00:43:40,585 --> 00:43:42,985 as long as you're in global escalation, that 1215 00:43:42,985 --> 00:43:44,045 slot is filled. 1216 00:43:46,824 --> 00:43:49,085 You need to walk away from that slot 1217 00:43:49,304 --> 00:43:51,785 so that someone who's junior to you can 1218 00:43:51,785 --> 00:43:53,005 grow into it. 1219 00:43:53,785 --> 00:43:54,285 Mhmm. 1220 00:43:54,744 --> 00:43:55,244 Right? 1221 00:43:55,730 --> 00:43:57,250 So that's actually one of the reasons I 1222 00:43:57,250 --> 00:43:59,329 left global escalation at Cisco and went to 1223 00:43:59,329 --> 00:43:59,829 engineering 1224 00:44:00,609 --> 00:44:02,630 was to make space for other people. 1225 00:44:03,489 --> 00:44:04,849 And I don't know the senior people do 1226 00:44:04,849 --> 00:44:06,690 a good job today of leaving space for 1227 00:44:06,690 --> 00:44:07,349 other people 1228 00:44:08,335 --> 00:44:09,934 in in many ways to grow into this. 1229 00:44:09,934 --> 00:44:12,114 That's a that's a, like, a whole cultural 1230 00:44:12,175 --> 00:44:14,035 thing. Like, look at The United States 1231 00:44:14,974 --> 00:44:17,454 governing bodies. Right? Like, some of y'all need 1232 00:44:17,454 --> 00:44:18,675 to just step aside. 1233 00:44:20,015 --> 00:44:22,494 What what what I will say though is 1234 00:44:22,494 --> 00:44:24,340 that if you're early in career, 1235 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:26,719 acknowledge that you got a lot to learn 1236 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,199 and find somebody to kick ideas off of 1237 00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:30,559 before you go on a wild hair and 1238 00:44:30,559 --> 00:44:32,500 think you know exactly how to do it. 1239 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,739 And if you've been around a while, 1240 00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:36,820 find somebody who's 1241 00:44:37,235 --> 00:44:39,255 new and up and coming and learning and 1242 00:44:39,554 --> 00:44:42,275 has questions and is willing to ask them. 1243 00:44:42,275 --> 00:44:43,414 I mean, I think that's, 1244 00:44:43,795 --> 00:44:45,974 you know, something we can do practically 1245 00:44:46,275 --> 00:44:48,054 to to make a small difference, 1246 00:44:48,755 --> 00:44:51,579 and then kinda share that a little bit. 1247 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,280 Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually harder to do 1248 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:55,960 mentoring than you think. For all you folks 1249 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,400 out there who are like, oh, I'd love 1250 00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,719 to have Russ or Ethan or Yvonne as 1251 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:00,460 my mentor. 1252 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,440 First of all, there's a time issue, but 1253 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:03,420 second of all, 1254 00:45:05,175 --> 00:45:06,875 you have to learn to ask questions. 1255 00:45:07,815 --> 00:45:09,974 Because because part of the problem with mentoring 1256 00:45:09,974 --> 00:45:12,215 is everybody walks into mentoring, and they think 1257 00:45:12,215 --> 00:45:14,055 my mentor is gonna basically give me a 1258 00:45:14,055 --> 00:45:14,795 free education. 1259 00:45:16,454 --> 00:45:17,835 And that's actually 1260 00:45:18,949 --> 00:45:20,489 not going to work because 1261 00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:22,809 it's time intensive 1262 00:45:23,429 --> 00:45:24,489 and it's a problem. 1263 00:45:25,909 --> 00:45:26,650 You need to 1264 00:45:27,829 --> 00:45:29,909 get out and do things and then ask 1265 00:45:29,909 --> 00:45:32,375 questions of your mentor about, like, why was 1266 00:45:32,375 --> 00:45:35,034 this working this way? Why was that happening? 1267 00:45:35,335 --> 00:45:37,094 Because it's very hard as it as somebody 1268 00:45:37,094 --> 00:45:39,175 who's mentoring other people, I can just do 1269 00:45:39,175 --> 00:45:40,855 my little forty hours with the class with 1270 00:45:40,855 --> 00:45:42,534 you, like, you know, whatever, but you can 1271 00:45:42,534 --> 00:45:44,155 just pay for that, and it's done. 1272 00:45:44,820 --> 00:45:46,900 Right? So I I don't know how useful 1273 00:45:46,900 --> 00:45:48,599 it is for me to try to educate 1274 00:45:49,539 --> 00:45:50,039 you. 1275 00:45:50,980 --> 00:45:52,180 I don't know. It has to be a 1276 00:45:52,180 --> 00:45:54,820 partnership. It's Yeah. But because believe it or 1277 00:45:54,820 --> 00:45:55,719 not, like, 1278 00:45:56,260 --> 00:45:58,019 once we get to once you get to 1279 00:45:58,019 --> 00:45:59,974 a certain point in your career, the the 1280 00:45:59,974 --> 00:46:01,894 the world has changed enough to where you 1281 00:46:01,894 --> 00:46:04,055 don't really know exact like, you know what 1282 00:46:04,055 --> 00:46:06,535 your path was, but it's changed enough that 1283 00:46:06,535 --> 00:46:08,614 it's gonna be different. Yep. And you have 1284 00:46:08,614 --> 00:46:09,755 some basic principles, 1285 00:46:10,055 --> 00:46:11,914 but and you also don't know where somebody's 1286 00:46:11,974 --> 00:46:14,960 actually at and what their questions are and 1287 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,800 what they need in the next step. So 1288 00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:19,460 Yep. It's it's it's yeah. 1289 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:21,619 It's it's not a straightforward 1290 00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:23,139 thing. Nope. 1291 00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:26,320 Alright. I think we covered everything. I think 1292 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,699 we have beat this horse 1293 00:46:28,394 --> 00:46:30,315 dead. And the rule is always when the 1294 00:46:30,315 --> 00:46:31,135 horse dies, 1295 00:46:31,835 --> 00:46:32,335 dismount. 1296 00:46:35,275 --> 00:46:37,195 Not before you have to make sure the 1297 00:46:37,195 --> 00:46:38,875 horse is actually dead. And then it's like, 1298 00:46:38,875 --> 00:46:40,815 alright. I guess I guess I'll get off. 1299 00:46:44,609 --> 00:46:45,589 Oh my goodness. 1300 00:46:46,130 --> 00:46:49,409 Alright. So, Yvonne, any last thoughts before we 1301 00:46:49,409 --> 00:46:51,349 wrap up and call it a day? 1302 00:46:52,130 --> 00:46:53,190 Nah. I'm good. 1303 00:46:53,809 --> 00:46:54,309 Okay. 1304 00:46:54,769 --> 00:46:56,929 We will miss the frog lamp while you're 1305 00:46:56,929 --> 00:46:57,429 gone. 1306 00:46:58,755 --> 00:47:00,934 It'll be here. It's not going anywhere. 1307 00:47:01,954 --> 00:47:04,835 And, Ethan, any final thoughts before we wrap 1308 00:47:04,835 --> 00:47:05,574 up and 1309 00:47:08,114 --> 00:47:10,914 If you're breaking into networking, if you're getting 1310 00:47:10,914 --> 00:47:12,030 started with it, 1311 00:47:13,789 --> 00:47:15,710 just be patient. It took us decades to 1312 00:47:15,710 --> 00:47:17,070 build all the stuff that's out there and 1313 00:47:17,070 --> 00:47:19,070 there's a lot to learn. So, just just 1314 00:47:19,070 --> 00:47:20,590 be a little patient. It won't all come 1315 00:47:20,590 --> 00:47:21,170 at once. 1316 00:47:21,469 --> 00:47:21,969 Yep. 1317 00:47:22,269 --> 00:47:24,190 And and I'll say I didn't talk to 1318 00:47:24,190 --> 00:47:26,269 somebody earlier this week who's early in career 1319 00:47:26,269 --> 00:47:28,565 who has some questions. And and 1320 00:47:29,025 --> 00:47:31,184 and what I said is, like, you're doing 1321 00:47:31,184 --> 00:47:31,684 it. 1322 00:47:31,985 --> 00:47:33,585 Like, I know you look ahead of you 1323 00:47:33,585 --> 00:47:35,184 and you see all these things, you know, 1324 00:47:35,184 --> 00:47:37,585 but, like, you're actively doing it. If if 1325 00:47:37,585 --> 00:47:38,724 you have a job 1326 00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:40,579 anywhere near the industry 1327 00:47:41,119 --> 00:47:42,259 and you're working 1328 00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:43,779 and you're learning, 1329 00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:45,299 you're doing it 1330 00:47:45,599 --> 00:47:47,299 and keep doing it. 1331 00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:48,659 And then 1332 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,880 no experience is bad experience when you're early 1333 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:53,539 in career. 1334 00:47:53,974 --> 00:47:56,315 Like, just about everything you learn 1335 00:47:56,934 --> 00:47:59,034 is a thing that you can use 1336 00:47:59,735 --> 00:48:02,235 in the next step. Right? Just just 1337 00:48:02,855 --> 00:48:04,074 go be helpful, 1338 00:48:05,494 --> 00:48:08,210 make a contribution, and continue to learn the 1339 00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:10,210 things and and show up and be curious. 1340 00:48:10,210 --> 00:48:12,690 And believe it or not, you are actually 1341 00:48:12,690 --> 00:48:14,550 doing it. And if you care, 1342 00:48:15,010 --> 00:48:17,409 you're head and shoulders ahead of most of 1343 00:48:17,409 --> 00:48:20,015 your peers. So Yeah. Yeah. So Yvonne, where 1344 00:48:20,015 --> 00:48:21,215 can people find you? I know you have 1345 00:48:21,215 --> 00:48:22,894 a new podcast. Well, I keep saying that 1346 00:48:22,894 --> 00:48:23,954 and it's not new anymore. 1347 00:48:24,575 --> 00:48:26,515 Well, so it kind of is 1348 00:48:26,974 --> 00:48:28,355 because so the the 1349 00:48:28,894 --> 00:48:31,715 the cloud gambit is now a new member 1350 00:48:31,855 --> 00:48:34,430 of the packet pushers network. So we're excited 1351 00:48:34,430 --> 00:48:36,809 to be over there. Oh, I'm so sorry, 1352 00:48:36,990 --> 00:48:40,769 Evelyn. Hey. We're, you know, like, hey. It's, 1353 00:48:41,550 --> 00:48:43,869 over a decade ago, I probably made my 1354 00:48:43,869 --> 00:48:46,530 first guest appearance on a Packet Pushers podcast 1355 00:48:46,750 --> 00:48:48,914 and really felt like that was big and 1356 00:48:48,914 --> 00:48:50,855 a big deal and special. And so it's 1357 00:48:50,994 --> 00:48:52,675 fun to be part of that network now. 1358 00:48:52,675 --> 00:48:55,235 So you can find me and William Collins 1359 00:48:55,235 --> 00:48:55,894 over there. 1360 00:48:56,355 --> 00:48:58,835 I'm on LinkedIn also, or you can find 1361 00:48:58,835 --> 00:49:01,015 me on Twitter at Sharp Network. 1362 00:49:01,715 --> 00:49:02,614 Alright. Ethan, 1363 00:49:03,389 --> 00:49:05,489 Packet Pushers. We know that much. But 1364 00:49:06,190 --> 00:49:06,690 Yes. 1365 00:49:07,230 --> 00:49:09,309 I'm, right. Packetpushers.net. 1366 00:49:09,309 --> 00:49:11,389 You can hear me weekly on the Heavy 1367 00:49:11,389 --> 00:49:13,869 Networking podcast. I'm also on the Tech Bytes 1368 00:49:13,869 --> 00:49:16,289 podcast, and the n is for networking 1369 00:49:16,589 --> 00:49:18,905 podcast. Heavy networking is what it sounds like. 1370 00:49:18,905 --> 00:49:20,585 We we go deep on a lot of 1371 00:49:20,585 --> 00:49:21,085 stuff. 1372 00:49:21,465 --> 00:49:23,465 We got a show coming up on space 1373 00:49:23,465 --> 00:49:26,505 networking, Russ, that we're doing with, with Scott, 1374 00:49:26,744 --> 00:49:28,985 Scott Johnson coming up pretty soon. We're gonna 1375 00:49:28,985 --> 00:49:29,885 be talking about 1376 00:49:30,219 --> 00:49:32,719 the bundle protocol and how TCPIP 1377 00:49:33,099 --> 00:49:35,599 is not well suited for high latency environments 1378 00:49:35,660 --> 00:49:37,039 like space, but interplanetary 1379 00:49:37,340 --> 00:49:39,420 networking is a thing. That and and much 1380 00:49:39,420 --> 00:49:40,880 more practical, I suppose, 1381 00:49:41,180 --> 00:49:43,180 network topics we cover and heavy networking. And 1382 00:49:43,180 --> 00:49:45,014 as for networking or basics, and Tech Bytes 1383 00:49:45,014 --> 00:49:46,534 will keep you up with all the latest 1384 00:49:46,534 --> 00:49:47,275 stuff coming 1385 00:49:47,574 --> 00:49:49,255 from the vendors that they want you to 1386 00:49:49,255 --> 00:49:51,734 know about. Buy our new this because it's 1387 00:49:51,734 --> 00:49:53,574 awesome. And we'd say, is it awesome, though? 1388 00:49:53,574 --> 00:49:55,894 Let's let's talk about that. And, we have 1389 00:49:55,894 --> 00:49:57,800 those conversations. You can find all that stuff 1390 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,079 at packetpushers.net, 1391 00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:01,000 and I'm on LinkedIn. That's the only social 1392 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:02,920 media that I do. I'm happy to connect 1393 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,079 with you, and I'm connected to thousands of 1394 00:50:05,079 --> 00:50:07,079 other people. So if you like to connect 1395 00:50:07,079 --> 00:50:08,679 to people who have lots of other connections 1396 00:50:08,679 --> 00:50:10,039 just to get you closer to all those 1397 00:50:10,039 --> 00:50:12,005 other people, I'm one of those I'm happy 1398 00:50:12,005 --> 00:50:13,925 to connect with you if, if you're a 1399 00:50:13,925 --> 00:50:15,785 network engineer or someone in tech. 1400 00:50:16,164 --> 00:50:18,085 Alright. Cool. I'm Russ White. You can always 1401 00:50:18,085 --> 00:50:20,505 find me here at the hedge @rule11.tech. 1402 00:50:20,565 --> 00:50:23,285 On LinkedIn, I'm like Ethan. I'm happy to 1403 00:50:23,285 --> 00:50:24,724 connect with most of the time. If you're 1404 00:50:24,724 --> 00:50:27,420 in network engineering, I'll connect. I'll I'll reciprocate 1405 00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:28,219 the connection. 1406 00:50:28,599 --> 00:50:29,960 I don't actually spend a lot of time 1407 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,960 trying to find people to connect to. But 1408 00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,260 if you connect to me, 1409 00:50:33,559 --> 00:50:36,140 then I'll often just reciprocate the connection, 1410 00:50:37,079 --> 00:50:38,940 unless you're, like, trying to sell me, 1411 00:50:39,605 --> 00:50:42,184 I don't know, a franchise. SEO guidance. 1412 00:50:42,644 --> 00:50:44,664 Yeah. Plus one to that. 1413 00:50:45,204 --> 00:50:45,704 Yeah. 1414 00:50:46,005 --> 00:50:47,704 If you're trying to sell me a franchise, 1415 00:50:47,764 --> 00:50:48,824 don't don't bother. 1416 00:50:51,125 --> 00:50:53,704 So unless it's a franchise in network engineering. 1417 00:50:54,300 --> 00:50:56,140 So okay. Well, we know we live in 1418 00:50:56,140 --> 00:50:59,039 an attention driven economy and that your attention 1419 00:50:59,099 --> 00:51:01,420 is the way the world goes around now 1420 00:51:01,420 --> 00:51:03,900 is paying attention to things. So we are 1421 00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:06,219 happy that you spent all this time listening 1422 00:51:06,219 --> 00:51:08,880 to Ethan and Yvonne and I ramble on 1423 00:51:09,414 --> 00:51:09,914 about 1424 00:51:11,174 --> 00:51:13,654 what is wrong with the networking world and 1425 00:51:13,654 --> 00:51:15,894 how we tried to fix it. So thanks 1426 00:51:15,894 --> 00:51:17,255 for listening all the way to the bitter 1427 00:51:17,255 --> 00:51:19,034 end, and we will catch you next time.