1 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:04,019 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:06,980 where we dig into technology, business, and culture 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,460 with the finest minds in computer networking. 4 00:00:21,635 --> 00:00:24,195 Hello, Tom. How are you? Hi, Russ. I'm 5 00:00:24,195 --> 00:00:26,695 doing really well. How about yourself? Fine. Whiteboard 6 00:00:26,755 --> 00:00:28,679 looks pretty full. Kids have been busy. 7 00:00:29,559 --> 00:00:31,640 Yep. Yep. That one's a schedule. We just 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,799 started school and our oldest oldest just started 9 00:00:33,799 --> 00:00:36,200 middle school. So we're all figuring out how 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,039 to balance the kids in different schools for 11 00:00:38,039 --> 00:00:40,859 the first time. So pretty fun. Okay. Cool. 12 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:42,539 And the plants doing okay? 13 00:00:42,885 --> 00:00:45,625 Plant's thriving. Yep. Right there. Yes. Rick Graziani 14 00:00:45,844 --> 00:00:47,365 came on the show just to see the 15 00:00:47,365 --> 00:00:48,585 plant. Yep. 16 00:00:51,125 --> 00:00:53,125 That's pretty funny. We talk about the plant 17 00:00:53,125 --> 00:00:55,204 more than we do anything else. Does it 18 00:00:55,204 --> 00:00:55,945 have a name? 19 00:00:56,969 --> 00:00:59,070 Oh, good question. It doesn't. 20 00:00:59,450 --> 00:01:00,890 What do you think its name should be, 21 00:01:00,890 --> 00:01:01,390 Alexis? 22 00:01:03,929 --> 00:01:06,170 I mean, Tom Junior is the obvious one, 23 00:01:06,170 --> 00:01:08,090 but Tom Junior. There we go. Or Tom, 24 00:01:08,090 --> 00:01:09,549 I'd be thinking Tom Thumb. 25 00:01:15,155 --> 00:01:17,555 Well, maybe we'll have a naming contest out 26 00:01:17,555 --> 00:01:19,715 here on the hedge. Best name wins and 27 00:01:19,715 --> 00:01:21,015 I'll name the plant that. 28 00:01:22,530 --> 00:01:23,969 Oh my goodness. I'll have to put that 29 00:01:23,969 --> 00:01:25,189 on LinkedIn or something. 30 00:01:26,530 --> 00:01:29,569 Take a poll. Take a poll. So hello, 31 00:01:29,569 --> 00:01:31,810 Alexis. For anybody who is interested, that is 32 00:01:31,810 --> 00:01:34,209 Alexis who is in the background there. Not 33 00:01:34,209 --> 00:01:35,909 in the background. She's just talking. 34 00:01:36,305 --> 00:01:38,545 She is our guest for this episode of 35 00:01:38,545 --> 00:01:40,805 The Hedge. And we wanna talk about 36 00:01:41,504 --> 00:01:42,644 advocating for yourself, 37 00:01:43,265 --> 00:01:45,905 being a self advocate in the network engineering 38 00:01:45,905 --> 00:01:47,905 world. How is that different than being a 39 00:01:47,905 --> 00:01:50,084 network a self advocate in any other world? 40 00:01:50,420 --> 00:01:52,259 Because we're supposed to be technical, first of 41 00:01:52,259 --> 00:01:53,479 all. And second of all, 42 00:01:53,780 --> 00:01:55,799 because most technical people, most engineers 43 00:01:56,819 --> 00:01:58,439 don't like people very much, 44 00:01:58,899 --> 00:02:01,079 and they don't like advocating for themselves. 45 00:02:01,619 --> 00:02:03,700 They like to, like, sit in a corner 46 00:02:03,700 --> 00:02:04,575 like I do, 47 00:02:05,134 --> 00:02:06,114 where, you know, 48 00:02:07,534 --> 00:02:08,894 just leave me alone and let me do 49 00:02:08,894 --> 00:02:10,655 my stuff. Quit making me do all this 50 00:02:10,655 --> 00:02:12,735 paperwork. It's a great cartoon I saw once 51 00:02:12,735 --> 00:02:14,894 of two people sitting across the desk from 52 00:02:14,894 --> 00:02:16,334 each other, and apparently, one of them was 53 00:02:16,334 --> 00:02:17,875 the manager. They were doing a review, 54 00:02:18,334 --> 00:02:19,715 and the person was 55 00:02:20,159 --> 00:02:21,680 saying on the other back on the other 56 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:23,360 side of the desk, the person being reviewed 57 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,599 said, what do you mean develop my soft 58 00:02:25,599 --> 00:02:28,239 skills? I went into computers so I wouldn't 59 00:02:28,239 --> 00:02:30,099 have to know anything about people. 60 00:02:33,185 --> 00:02:35,205 That just captures the whole 61 00:02:37,264 --> 00:02:37,905 I think, 62 00:02:38,544 --> 00:02:40,644 and I think that's a sentient that's 63 00:02:41,745 --> 00:02:44,544 echoed. Right? Even among some of the more 64 00:02:44,544 --> 00:02:47,044 vocal people that you've seen on the Internet, 65 00:02:48,469 --> 00:02:51,189 But dealing with computers is easier than dealing 66 00:02:51,189 --> 00:02:51,849 with people. 67 00:02:52,150 --> 00:02:54,389 Right? Because those computers tell them tell you 68 00:02:54,469 --> 00:02:54,629 tell 69 00:02:55,349 --> 00:02:57,189 computers do what you tell them to most 70 00:02:57,189 --> 00:02:58,009 of the time. 71 00:02:58,310 --> 00:03:00,009 Right? For better or worse. 72 00:03:01,014 --> 00:03:03,014 Yeah. And for the as long as you 73 00:03:03,014 --> 00:03:04,854 pass them the right debug flag, they'll also 74 00:03:04,854 --> 00:03:06,474 tell you what they're thinking. Right? 75 00:03:07,814 --> 00:03:10,134 There's no debug flag on people. I I 76 00:03:10,134 --> 00:03:11,495 don't know. It sounds like a good idea. 77 00:03:11,495 --> 00:03:13,115 I should put one on my wife. 78 00:03:13,939 --> 00:03:15,700 Turn on the debug thing on the back 79 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:17,800 and She should put one on you. 80 00:03:18,659 --> 00:03:20,680 Could she handle it? I don't 81 00:03:21,939 --> 00:03:23,560 know. That would be pretty funny. 82 00:03:23,939 --> 00:03:25,860 So what is so so Alexis, when we 83 00:03:25,860 --> 00:03:28,284 talk about advocating for yourself, what what does 84 00:03:28,284 --> 00:03:30,044 that mean to you? What is, like, maybe 85 00:03:30,044 --> 00:03:32,044 someone's listening and thinking what does that even 86 00:03:32,044 --> 00:03:33,805 mean? Like, am I my own lawyer? What 87 00:03:33,805 --> 00:03:34,384 is this? 88 00:03:34,764 --> 00:03:36,685 Yeah. I think it's a really important topic 89 00:03:36,685 --> 00:03:39,084 and, you know, the number one thing when 90 00:03:39,084 --> 00:03:40,144 I talk about this 91 00:03:40,599 --> 00:03:42,040 that I want people to take away is 92 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:43,080 that no one is going to be a 93 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:44,300 better advocate for 94 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,520 you than yourself. Because a lot of times 95 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:47,659 we come into college 96 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,960 and we get our first jobs and maybe 97 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,040 we're assigned a mentor or we're given a 98 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,960 boss or there's a senior engineer that we're 99 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:54,699 tied to 100 00:03:55,004 --> 00:03:57,485 and we kind of assume that, well, if 101 00:03:57,485 --> 00:04:00,125 we work really hard, people are gonna notice 102 00:04:00,125 --> 00:04:02,525 and we're gonna go rewarded for it. And 103 00:04:02,525 --> 00:04:05,425 this mentor or buddy or boss or coach 104 00:04:05,485 --> 00:04:05,985 or 105 00:04:06,284 --> 00:04:08,764 peer, whoever it is, is gonna be the 106 00:04:08,764 --> 00:04:10,384 one that's speaking up for you. 107 00:04:10,819 --> 00:04:12,200 And that's not always the case. 108 00:04:12,659 --> 00:04:15,219 Right? I I've had it personally happen to 109 00:04:15,219 --> 00:04:17,399 me. I've heard about it happening to friends. 110 00:04:17,699 --> 00:04:19,160 Because at the end of the day, 111 00:04:19,620 --> 00:04:21,459 you might go and work really, really hard 112 00:04:21,459 --> 00:04:23,860 on something and you're grinding away. You're really 113 00:04:23,860 --> 00:04:25,240 putting your all into it, 114 00:04:25,564 --> 00:04:27,245 but no one is coming to peek over 115 00:04:27,245 --> 00:04:27,985 your shoulder 116 00:04:28,285 --> 00:04:29,425 and check your work. 117 00:04:29,725 --> 00:04:31,264 That might have happened in college, 118 00:04:31,564 --> 00:04:33,485 right, or even in elementary school where there 119 00:04:33,485 --> 00:04:35,884 was participation trophies being given out and things 120 00:04:35,884 --> 00:04:37,264 were, you know, incentivized 121 00:04:37,564 --> 00:04:40,384 by grading systems or, you know, 122 00:04:40,769 --> 00:04:41,269 gold 123 00:04:41,810 --> 00:04:42,870 stars. But in 124 00:04:43,250 --> 00:04:45,569 corporate America, in the real world, once you 125 00:04:45,569 --> 00:04:46,069 graduate, 126 00:04:46,449 --> 00:04:47,990 it's not necessarily the case. 127 00:04:49,250 --> 00:04:51,329 Yeah. In fact, I think it's very, very 128 00:04:51,329 --> 00:04:52,310 common that 129 00:04:52,769 --> 00:04:53,829 people don't 130 00:04:55,115 --> 00:04:57,115 really pay attention to what you're doing unless 131 00:04:57,115 --> 00:04:59,194 you tell them. And I I do this 132 00:04:59,194 --> 00:05:01,274 all the time. I will sit here and 133 00:05:01,274 --> 00:05:02,574 I will write up 134 00:05:02,875 --> 00:05:05,595 20 pages of documentation on some really cool 135 00:05:05,595 --> 00:05:06,095 idea, 136 00:05:06,555 --> 00:05:09,115 and then two weeks later, somebody will say 137 00:05:09,115 --> 00:05:09,774 to me, 138 00:05:10,209 --> 00:05:12,290 whatever, like, did you ever think about that? 139 00:05:12,290 --> 00:05:13,810 I'm like, there's 20 pages of documents right 140 00:05:13,810 --> 00:05:14,310 here. 141 00:05:14,850 --> 00:05:16,850 Did you did you read what I wrote? 142 00:05:16,850 --> 00:05:18,689 Yeah. Did you read what I wrote? Which 143 00:05:18,689 --> 00:05:20,050 by the way is is not always good 144 00:05:20,050 --> 00:05:21,250 because a lot of people I hate to 145 00:05:21,250 --> 00:05:22,370 tell you this, but a lot of people 146 00:05:22,370 --> 00:05:23,509 are functionally illiterate 147 00:05:24,225 --> 00:05:26,084 in the tech world. That's a sad thing. 148 00:05:26,144 --> 00:05:28,144 But either way, yeah, and I don't really 149 00:05:28,144 --> 00:05:30,064 say anything to anybody. I just wrote it 150 00:05:30,064 --> 00:05:31,204 up. That was an idea. 151 00:05:31,584 --> 00:05:32,805 And then, you know, 152 00:05:33,185 --> 00:05:34,964 I just let it sit there because 153 00:05:35,904 --> 00:05:38,600 why? Who am I gonna tell? That's most 154 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,279 of the time what I feel like. Is 155 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:41,980 who am I gonna tell? My manager? 156 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,360 Well, I don't know. I don't know how 157 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,779 good that's gonna be. He's just gonna say, 158 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,759 well, he's just gonna say, well, why are 159 00:05:48,759 --> 00:05:50,040 you working on that one? Should we be 160 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,720 working on this thing over here or whatever 161 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:52,379 it is? 162 00:05:53,014 --> 00:05:55,495 And so that's kind of an issue in 163 00:05:55,495 --> 00:05:57,034 our world that people don't. 164 00:05:58,134 --> 00:06:00,214 Like I said, Alexis, you know, we're only 165 00:06:00,214 --> 00:06:03,094 advocate for real most of the time. Well, 166 00:06:03,094 --> 00:06:05,974 and especially especially when we're thinking about post 167 00:06:05,974 --> 00:06:07,500 COVID. I mean, we're all sitting in in 168 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:09,000 our home offices right now. 169 00:06:10,420 --> 00:06:12,819 It's even harder to do that. When you're 170 00:06:12,819 --> 00:06:14,420 not physically in the office, you don't have 171 00:06:14,420 --> 00:06:16,339 a coworker that's stopping by your cubicle to 172 00:06:16,339 --> 00:06:18,180 go, Oh, what what's that you're writing Russ? 173 00:06:18,180 --> 00:06:20,660 That looks really interesting. Yeah. Like you're really 174 00:06:20,660 --> 00:06:21,160 focused. 175 00:06:21,540 --> 00:06:22,439 What are you doing? 176 00:06:22,814 --> 00:06:24,654 Right? It's even more important to bring that 177 00:06:24,654 --> 00:06:25,714 element into 178 00:06:26,175 --> 00:06:28,095 advocating for your work and being able to 179 00:06:28,095 --> 00:06:28,595 articulate 180 00:06:29,134 --> 00:06:30,735 what you've done and the impact that you've 181 00:06:30,735 --> 00:06:32,274 made. It's not just 182 00:06:32,735 --> 00:06:33,955 the work, which 183 00:06:34,334 --> 00:06:35,875 for a lot of engineers, 184 00:06:36,610 --> 00:06:38,949 or especially people who are more introverted, 185 00:06:39,410 --> 00:06:40,949 which a lot of engineers are, 186 00:06:41,810 --> 00:06:43,110 that's hard because 187 00:06:43,649 --> 00:06:45,269 speaking up is uncomfortable 188 00:06:45,729 --> 00:06:49,269 and it is almost work on top of 189 00:06:49,490 --> 00:06:50,149 the work. 190 00:06:50,610 --> 00:06:53,095 Yep. It is. It is. What are so 191 00:06:53,095 --> 00:06:55,115 so what are the what are the practical 192 00:06:55,175 --> 00:06:56,314 opportunities to 193 00:06:56,694 --> 00:06:58,775 advocate for yourself? Like, the obvious one is 194 00:06:58,775 --> 00:07:01,095 the annual performance review or whatever. But that's 195 00:07:01,095 --> 00:07:01,835 really formal. 196 00:07:02,215 --> 00:07:04,055 There are many others. What, what do you 197 00:07:04,134 --> 00:07:05,574 Alexis, what do you think? What are the 198 00:07:05,574 --> 00:07:07,470 opportunities that come up where you can advocate 199 00:07:07,470 --> 00:07:08,209 for yourself? 200 00:07:09,069 --> 00:07:12,129 Well, I would start first with the relationship 201 00:07:12,189 --> 00:07:14,509 you have with your manager, and it really 202 00:07:14,509 --> 00:07:16,829 depends on what type of manager you have. 203 00:07:16,829 --> 00:07:19,229 Some managers wanna have a really personal relationship 204 00:07:19,229 --> 00:07:21,709 with you. Some managers want to be very 205 00:07:21,709 --> 00:07:23,774 involved in your work or what you're doing 206 00:07:23,774 --> 00:07:25,235 or how you're managing your time. 207 00:07:25,535 --> 00:07:27,074 Some it's much more transactional. 208 00:07:27,694 --> 00:07:29,535 Did you did you do your tasks this 209 00:07:29,535 --> 00:07:30,035 week? 210 00:07:30,414 --> 00:07:32,514 I'll see you next week. And that's it. 211 00:07:33,694 --> 00:07:34,194 And 212 00:07:35,439 --> 00:07:36,819 for me advocacy, 213 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:40,319 you can do the checklist of your week 214 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:42,800 to week tasks, read your KPIs, or your 215 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,980 bug reports, or whatever else you're working on. 216 00:07:45,199 --> 00:07:46,960 But are you able to have a deeper 217 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,444 conversation with them about your six month or 218 00:07:49,444 --> 00:07:51,464 twelve month or three year goals? 219 00:07:51,845 --> 00:07:53,464 Maybe you don't even know what those are, 220 00:07:53,605 --> 00:07:55,545 but as your manager, 221 00:07:56,165 --> 00:07:59,225 career development is technically part of their job. 222 00:07:59,524 --> 00:08:02,165 And, if they're not proactively having those discussions 223 00:08:02,165 --> 00:08:04,379 with you, it's up to you to take 224 00:08:04,459 --> 00:08:05,980 control of that conversation and bring it up 225 00:08:05,980 --> 00:08:06,639 to them. 226 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:08,240 So, hi, 227 00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:10,399 Mr. Manager. 228 00:08:11,020 --> 00:08:13,100 I have been in this role for three 229 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:14,699 months now. I feel like I've really gotten 230 00:08:14,699 --> 00:08:15,600 to know the team. 231 00:08:15,980 --> 00:08:17,580 I've gotten my feet wet. I kind of 232 00:08:17,580 --> 00:08:19,439 understand where I fit in at this company, 233 00:08:19,500 --> 00:08:21,125 and I wanna understand how I can make 234 00:08:21,125 --> 00:08:22,025 a deeper impact. 235 00:08:22,485 --> 00:08:22,985 Personally, 236 00:08:24,004 --> 00:08:27,125 I am a junior network engineer. I'm, you 237 00:08:27,125 --> 00:08:28,345 know, a level one. 238 00:08:28,725 --> 00:08:29,545 In the next 239 00:08:31,045 --> 00:08:32,759 year to two years, I would like to 240 00:08:32,759 --> 00:08:34,740 be a level two. Do you think that's 241 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:35,240 feasible? 242 00:08:35,779 --> 00:08:37,700 And if so, what do I have to 243 00:08:37,700 --> 00:08:39,379 do in order to accomplish that? And kind 244 00:08:39,379 --> 00:08:42,100 of setting the stage early for the roadmap 245 00:08:42,100 --> 00:08:44,740 of where you wanna go versus what happens 246 00:08:44,740 --> 00:08:46,754 with a lot of people is they will 247 00:08:46,754 --> 00:08:48,434 work for a year and a half to 248 00:08:48,434 --> 00:08:50,915 two years and hit all their checklists, hit 249 00:08:50,915 --> 00:08:53,715 their KPIs, you know, do their tasks. And 250 00:08:53,715 --> 00:08:56,035 then after two years they go, well, why 251 00:08:56,035 --> 00:08:57,095 haven't I been promoted? 252 00:08:58,370 --> 00:09:00,529 Right? So it really is taking control of 253 00:09:00,529 --> 00:09:02,370 that conversation aspect. Now is it up to 254 00:09:02,370 --> 00:09:03,570 your manager to bring it up to you 255 00:09:03,570 --> 00:09:05,190 or you to bring it up to them? 256 00:09:05,329 --> 00:09:06,389 It could be either. 257 00:09:07,089 --> 00:09:09,089 I think in a perfect world, your manager 258 00:09:09,089 --> 00:09:09,829 is the one 259 00:09:10,129 --> 00:09:12,735 that's taking control of their team's career development, 260 00:09:12,735 --> 00:09:14,995 but we don't always see that happen. Yeah. 261 00:09:15,054 --> 00:09:17,235 As a matter of fact, you will sometimes 262 00:09:17,615 --> 00:09:19,615 not always not not all that common, but 263 00:09:19,615 --> 00:09:20,434 it does happen. 264 00:09:20,975 --> 00:09:24,274 When your manager prefers someone else over you, 265 00:09:24,799 --> 00:09:26,159 and you end up having to be an 266 00:09:26,159 --> 00:09:26,659 advocate 267 00:09:27,039 --> 00:09:28,339 outside your team, 268 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:29,939 not to your manager 269 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,459 because your manager is actually blocking you 270 00:09:34,159 --> 00:09:36,019 from being from being effective. 271 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,000 And so you have to learn how to 272 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:39,379 move around that 273 00:09:39,714 --> 00:09:41,794 and not necessarily just skip level, but also, 274 00:09:41,794 --> 00:09:43,875 like, you work with other people on other 275 00:09:43,875 --> 00:09:44,375 teams. 276 00:09:44,995 --> 00:09:47,315 Let them know what you're working on. Talk 277 00:09:47,315 --> 00:09:48,534 to them. Help them. 278 00:09:48,835 --> 00:09:51,394 And then the then then the goodness spins 279 00:09:51,394 --> 00:09:51,894 around, 280 00:09:52,539 --> 00:09:53,919 and it becomes difficult 281 00:09:54,540 --> 00:09:55,040 to 282 00:09:55,660 --> 00:09:58,379 push you down in a sense after a 283 00:09:58,379 --> 00:09:59,919 while. It's always possible. 284 00:10:00,220 --> 00:10:01,899 There are some managers who are just they 285 00:10:01,899 --> 00:10:04,220 just they take wrong they take you get 286 00:10:04,220 --> 00:10:05,580 on their wrong side in the first three 287 00:10:05,580 --> 00:10:07,464 months, and it just doesn't matter what forget 288 00:10:07,464 --> 00:10:09,865 it. Yeah. They never forget it. I've been 289 00:10:09,865 --> 00:10:11,704 there too, Russ. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I 290 00:10:11,704 --> 00:10:13,384 think I think you I think you need 291 00:10:13,384 --> 00:10:15,865 to be mobile in your organization regardless of 292 00:10:15,865 --> 00:10:17,704 what your manager style is. Even if your 293 00:10:17,704 --> 00:10:20,184 manager is like your cheerleader and your best 294 00:10:20,184 --> 00:10:21,990 friend, I think you still need to go 295 00:10:21,990 --> 00:10:24,470 out to other teams because the opportunities don't 296 00:10:24,470 --> 00:10:26,149 always come up in your team. The other 297 00:10:26,149 --> 00:10:27,750 thing is, I mean, if you're really good, 298 00:10:27,750 --> 00:10:29,990 if you're someone that your manager is gonna 299 00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:32,309 wanna keep you, and sometime your manager is 300 00:10:32,309 --> 00:10:34,995 keeping sometimes your manager keeping you is not 301 00:10:34,995 --> 00:10:37,315 aligned with your interest in your career as 302 00:10:37,315 --> 00:10:39,315 good as the manager might be. And so 303 00:10:39,315 --> 00:10:40,675 I I think what you're saying, Russ, is 304 00:10:40,675 --> 00:10:42,675 I think is universally true. You get around 305 00:10:42,675 --> 00:10:44,434 and see other people, and then when those 306 00:10:44,434 --> 00:10:46,055 other opportunities come up, 307 00:10:46,754 --> 00:10:47,235 then 308 00:10:47,555 --> 00:10:48,754 the thing I like about that is it 309 00:10:48,754 --> 00:10:50,410 puts you in the driver's seat. You're not 310 00:10:50,410 --> 00:10:52,649 waiting for your manager, like Alexis saying, you're 311 00:10:52,649 --> 00:10:54,009 not waiting for your manager to make good 312 00:10:54,009 --> 00:10:55,149 things happen for you. 313 00:10:55,769 --> 00:10:57,549 And you're also conversely not 314 00:10:57,850 --> 00:10:59,610 I I don't think for me, I'm less 315 00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:02,585 emotionally affected. If my manager's a bad one, 316 00:11:02,585 --> 00:11:04,985 like, I'm I'm less emotionally effective up if 317 00:11:04,985 --> 00:11:06,264 if I'm already going to talk to other 318 00:11:06,264 --> 00:11:08,345 people. Like, okay. Well, he's not gonna help 319 00:11:08,345 --> 00:11:09,785 me, but there's all these other people that 320 00:11:09,785 --> 00:11:10,985 will. And and it's good. I can still 321 00:11:10,985 --> 00:11:12,825 have a good relationship with this bad manager, 322 00:11:12,825 --> 00:11:14,024 and and I don't know. I think it 323 00:11:14,024 --> 00:11:14,524 helps. 324 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,279 Well, and I think your point to expanding 325 00:11:17,279 --> 00:11:19,600 your network, maybe you're in a really large 326 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,080 company where you do have multiple departments that 327 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:23,840 you can do your networking with. You can 328 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,540 also network outside of your company. 329 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:28,725 The industry is so huge. There's no reason 330 00:11:28,725 --> 00:11:30,245 to say you can't have a mentor or 331 00:11:30,245 --> 00:11:30,904 an advocate 332 00:11:31,605 --> 00:11:33,625 outside. I mean, even especially now, 333 00:11:34,004 --> 00:11:35,065 traveling with Megaport, 334 00:11:35,524 --> 00:11:37,144 I see the same people at conferences 335 00:11:37,845 --> 00:11:39,764 all the time. Right? Every three months, I 336 00:11:39,764 --> 00:11:41,445 run-in the same group of people, whether it's 337 00:11:41,445 --> 00:11:43,440 at a Nanog or a Cisco Live or 338 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,379 at, you know, XYZ event. 339 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,320 I've ran into the same people on different 340 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:48,820 continents. 341 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,360 It's just I'm like, you're here too? This 342 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:52,100 is crazy. 343 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,480 And you start to build those relationships. And 344 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,159 if something happens or if you really do 345 00:11:58,159 --> 00:11:59,059 need some advice, 346 00:11:59,625 --> 00:12:00,985 they might have a different take on it 347 00:12:00,985 --> 00:12:02,285 just based on their experience. 348 00:12:03,144 --> 00:12:05,384 Yeah. In fact, I worked in a team 349 00:12:05,384 --> 00:12:06,605 once at Cisco 350 00:12:07,144 --> 00:12:08,745 was really one of the better teams, one 351 00:12:08,745 --> 00:12:10,024 of the best teams I worked at in 352 00:12:10,024 --> 00:12:10,524 Cisco, 353 00:12:10,985 --> 00:12:12,745 where we never met in person because we 354 00:12:12,745 --> 00:12:14,699 lived all over the world. But we all 355 00:12:14,699 --> 00:12:16,620 saw each other at the IETF three times 356 00:12:16,620 --> 00:12:17,199 a year. 357 00:12:17,579 --> 00:12:19,600 Mhmm. And so the we had team dinners 358 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:20,639 at the IETF 359 00:12:21,019 --> 00:12:22,799 because it was the only time we physically 360 00:12:22,860 --> 00:12:25,579 saw each other. It's like, that's crazy, but 361 00:12:25,579 --> 00:12:26,959 that's but it worked 362 00:12:27,544 --> 00:12:30,105 really, really well. Now another thing I often 363 00:12:30,105 --> 00:12:32,365 wonder about is picking your projects. 364 00:12:33,384 --> 00:12:35,884 So we tend to go along, 365 00:12:36,264 --> 00:12:37,804 and my manager says, 366 00:12:38,184 --> 00:12:39,324 work on this. 367 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:43,440 I've I don't I've seen lots of times 368 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,519 where people have done that, and then that 369 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:47,220 entire team gets laid off 370 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:48,980 working on that project. 371 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,220 And just because you or, 372 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:52,980 the project gets squashed. 373 00:12:53,434 --> 00:12:54,634 And all of a sudden, you come to 374 00:12:54,634 --> 00:12:55,914 the end of the year and you have 375 00:12:55,914 --> 00:12:57,615 nothing that you can say, 376 00:12:58,074 --> 00:12:59,615 I finished this this year, 377 00:12:59,995 --> 00:13:01,855 because some external person 378 00:13:02,554 --> 00:13:03,774 squashed your project. 379 00:13:04,154 --> 00:13:05,454 And you worked diligently 380 00:13:05,754 --> 00:13:07,134 and really hard 381 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:08,960 for a lot of hours and a lot 382 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:10,559 of time trying to figure out how to 383 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:11,620 make something work, 384 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:13,940 and they just toss it. 385 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:16,680 And that's that's another, I think what do 386 00:13:16,680 --> 00:13:18,240 you think of that, Alexis, as far as 387 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:18,740 advocacy? 388 00:13:19,695 --> 00:13:22,174 Yeah. I think it's tough, and especially watching 389 00:13:22,174 --> 00:13:24,415 something that you worked on, you know, get 390 00:13:24,415 --> 00:13:25,774 tossed away like that. But I think it 391 00:13:25,774 --> 00:13:28,975 goes back to being really intentional with the 392 00:13:28,975 --> 00:13:31,134 areas that you wanna grow in and what 393 00:13:31,134 --> 00:13:33,209 you want to work on. So maybe you 394 00:13:33,209 --> 00:13:35,370 have your assigned project that you need to 395 00:13:35,370 --> 00:13:36,970 work on because that is where you are 396 00:13:36,970 --> 00:13:37,470 assigned 397 00:13:38,009 --> 00:13:40,409 delegated hours are going towards. Say it's a 398 00:13:40,409 --> 00:13:40,909 network 399 00:13:41,289 --> 00:13:41,789 upgrade, 400 00:13:42,169 --> 00:13:44,490 but you want to grow grow glow you 401 00:13:44,490 --> 00:13:46,730 want to grow more into cloud or AI 402 00:13:46,730 --> 00:13:48,649 because you realize that's coming down the line 403 00:13:48,649 --> 00:13:50,554 and there's another adjacent team 404 00:13:51,174 --> 00:13:51,674 that 405 00:13:52,134 --> 00:13:54,054 that's not your project, but can you help 406 00:13:54,054 --> 00:13:55,115 out? Can you shadow? 407 00:13:55,975 --> 00:13:57,574 Can you have someone on that team mentor 408 00:13:57,574 --> 00:13:59,095 you and get you involved so you can 409 00:13:59,095 --> 00:14:00,774 still acquire those skills and add it to 410 00:14:00,774 --> 00:14:01,434 your resume 411 00:14:01,910 --> 00:14:03,670 without taking ownership. Now would it be a 412 00:14:03,670 --> 00:14:05,610 stretch? Would you be working extra hours? 413 00:14:06,149 --> 00:14:06,649 Maybe. 414 00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:08,950 But at least you have a legitimate project 415 00:14:08,950 --> 00:14:10,970 that's not just a lab and some 416 00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:11,850 random 417 00:14:12,309 --> 00:14:12,809 dashboard. 418 00:14:13,110 --> 00:14:13,610 Right? 419 00:14:14,285 --> 00:14:15,565 Something I've heard in, 420 00:14:16,605 --> 00:14:19,184 conversations before, especially when I was, more junior, 421 00:14:19,485 --> 00:14:21,965 people would say, wait a minute. How did 422 00:14:21,965 --> 00:14:23,825 you get how did you get that project? 423 00:14:23,965 --> 00:14:25,965 Like, kinda like, I'm ahead of you in 424 00:14:25,965 --> 00:14:27,404 line. How could how did you get that 425 00:14:27,404 --> 00:14:27,904 project? 426 00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:30,049 And and the answer was usually, 427 00:14:30,669 --> 00:14:31,870 and I don't think I would say this 428 00:14:31,870 --> 00:14:33,149 to them, but the answer was, well, I 429 00:14:33,149 --> 00:14:35,549 just went and started doing it. Like, all 430 00:14:35,549 --> 00:14:37,149 of you are waiting for someone else to 431 00:14:37,149 --> 00:14:40,110 give you permission to do something interesting. And 432 00:14:40,110 --> 00:14:41,789 sometimes, like, that's I mean, I would say 433 00:14:41,789 --> 00:14:43,154 a lot of times, you you don't wait 434 00:14:43,154 --> 00:14:45,554 for permission. You go do good stuff. And 435 00:14:45,554 --> 00:14:47,154 all those people that are that are quietly 436 00:14:47,154 --> 00:14:48,834 waiting and hoping that their manager will give 437 00:14:48,834 --> 00:14:50,595 them something cool to do, they're gonna keep 438 00:14:50,595 --> 00:14:52,115 waiting, and you're gonna be able to do 439 00:14:52,115 --> 00:14:53,955 the thing that is that is engaging to 440 00:14:53,955 --> 00:14:54,455 you. 441 00:14:54,914 --> 00:14:56,054 Yeah. And I well, 442 00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:57,929 to that point, yes. 443 00:14:58,549 --> 00:15:00,169 As long as it fits in your time, 444 00:15:00,230 --> 00:15:01,769 you know, you do wanna be cognizant 445 00:15:02,149 --> 00:15:04,629 of your being paid and brought on the 446 00:15:04,629 --> 00:15:06,149 team to do this job, and you do 447 00:15:06,149 --> 00:15:08,490 have your assigned things now to do. 448 00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:10,855 This is where this is where, like, working 449 00:15:10,855 --> 00:15:13,335 for large companies is helpful because large companies 450 00:15:13,335 --> 00:15:14,855 have no idea what their employees are doing 451 00:15:14,855 --> 00:15:16,774 for the most part. And as long as 452 00:15:16,774 --> 00:15:18,615 you can deliver on the things that like 453 00:15:18,615 --> 00:15:20,375 you said, Alexis, as long as like, you 454 00:15:20,375 --> 00:15:21,735 you can't fall behind on the things that 455 00:15:21,735 --> 00:15:24,240 you're expected to do. But I I have 456 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,320 I have seldom worked for a company that 457 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,639 was actually using me to my full potential. 458 00:15:28,639 --> 00:15:31,279 It was it's been, like, 50% utilization at 459 00:15:31,279 --> 00:15:33,600 best. And so there's there's plenty of time. 460 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:34,879 And I don't know. Maybe I'm weird. But, 461 00:15:34,879 --> 00:15:36,560 like, I think there's plenty of time to 462 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,820 go and involve yourself. And but sometimes, 463 00:15:39,125 --> 00:15:40,725 it does mean that you need to do 464 00:15:40,725 --> 00:15:42,725 some stuff in the evening. Sometimes, you know, 465 00:15:42,725 --> 00:15:44,164 and and it depends. If it engaged you, 466 00:15:44,164 --> 00:15:46,084 that's not a big deal. Or reach out 467 00:15:46,084 --> 00:15:48,664 and do some networking. I, you know, 468 00:15:49,044 --> 00:15:50,964 I don't know that I've met a senior 469 00:15:50,964 --> 00:15:52,024 engineer yet 470 00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:54,389 that has been like, no. I don't want 471 00:15:54,389 --> 00:15:56,629 a mentee. I don't want anyone to shadow 472 00:15:56,629 --> 00:15:58,250 me. Please leave me alone. 473 00:15:58,629 --> 00:16:00,870 Right? More often than not, when you talk 474 00:16:00,870 --> 00:16:02,629 to older engineers and you're like, hey. That 475 00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:04,149 sounds really cool. How did you learn that? 476 00:16:04,149 --> 00:16:05,509 What are you doing? Would you bring me 477 00:16:05,509 --> 00:16:06,490 along with you? 478 00:16:07,595 --> 00:16:09,674 It's just especially if it's a Zoom call, 479 00:16:09,674 --> 00:16:12,235 it's just an extra person on Zoom. Yeah. 480 00:16:12,235 --> 00:16:12,735 Exactly. 481 00:16:13,115 --> 00:16:14,955 But I'll also say this that much more 482 00:16:14,955 --> 00:16:17,035 space. If you if you're in a company 483 00:16:17,035 --> 00:16:17,695 where they 484 00:16:18,715 --> 00:16:19,855 discourage you 485 00:16:20,235 --> 00:16:22,254 from doing stuff on the side, 486 00:16:22,809 --> 00:16:24,829 because there are some companies that will say, 487 00:16:24,889 --> 00:16:26,809 oh, you shouldn't be working on that. You 488 00:16:26,809 --> 00:16:28,409 have this that you need to be working 489 00:16:28,409 --> 00:16:29,929 on. If you're in that kind of a 490 00:16:29,929 --> 00:16:30,429 company, 491 00:16:30,970 --> 00:16:31,870 find the door. 492 00:16:32,569 --> 00:16:35,449 Yep. Or if you're working for someone like 493 00:16:35,449 --> 00:16:37,709 that. Right? Because, again, ideally, 494 00:16:38,865 --> 00:16:41,504 in an ideal world, your manager supports your 495 00:16:41,504 --> 00:16:43,424 interests and wants you to grow in areas 496 00:16:43,424 --> 00:16:45,424 that you are interested in growing in. And 497 00:16:45,424 --> 00:16:47,345 if it's an area that benefits you and 498 00:16:47,345 --> 00:16:48,404 benefits the company, 499 00:16:48,785 --> 00:16:51,345 and you're checking all the boxes for your 500 00:16:51,345 --> 00:16:52,325 standard job, 501 00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:54,360 you should be able to go and pursue 502 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,120 things you're interested in and want to grow 503 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:57,419 towards. And if you're being 504 00:16:57,879 --> 00:17:00,120 discouraged from doing that, like you said, Russ, 505 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,559 I think it's a pretty clear sign that 506 00:17:01,559 --> 00:17:03,179 you should start looking other places. 507 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:04,539 Yeah. 508 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,474 There's there's another avenue too to take, which 509 00:17:07,474 --> 00:17:09,394 is not just so we're we've been talking 510 00:17:09,394 --> 00:17:10,674 a little bit about going and working on 511 00:17:10,674 --> 00:17:12,035 things that are sort of in progress that 512 00:17:12,035 --> 00:17:12,934 you think are cool. 513 00:17:13,634 --> 00:17:16,134 Another thing that's that I found really helpful 514 00:17:16,275 --> 00:17:19,059 is to find something that and this this 515 00:17:19,059 --> 00:17:20,980 depends a lot on the culture of your 516 00:17:20,980 --> 00:17:23,380 organization, but find something that needs to be 517 00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:23,880 done 518 00:17:24,259 --> 00:17:26,580 and do the work to advocate for the 519 00:17:26,740 --> 00:17:29,299 for that capability or whatever it is and 520 00:17:29,299 --> 00:17:31,244 figure out how to start getting it done 521 00:17:31,404 --> 00:17:32,845 and then and get the right people to 522 00:17:32,845 --> 00:17:34,045 sign off. It's a ton of work. It's 523 00:17:34,045 --> 00:17:35,484 a ton of overhead because you gotta go 524 00:17:35,565 --> 00:17:37,585 sometimes you gotta go loosen up purse strings. 525 00:17:37,724 --> 00:17:39,565 But I've been amazed at how much I 526 00:17:39,565 --> 00:17:41,265 can do just as a single engineer. 527 00:17:41,805 --> 00:17:44,419 Mhmm. Hey. Our infrastructure needs this. And you 528 00:17:44,419 --> 00:17:45,940 look at it, and it's millions of dollars 529 00:17:45,940 --> 00:17:48,179 of CapEx over five years. And you're like, 530 00:17:48,179 --> 00:17:49,859 how in the world is one engineer ever 531 00:17:49,859 --> 00:17:51,460 gonna make that happen? I've seen it happen. 532 00:17:51,460 --> 00:17:53,460 I've made it happen before. Like, you can 533 00:17:53,539 --> 00:17:55,059 you if you if you can have the 534 00:17:55,059 --> 00:17:56,740 right relationships and talk to the right people 535 00:17:56,740 --> 00:17:57,779 and be in the right place at the 536 00:17:57,779 --> 00:17:59,355 right time, you can go and propose something. 537 00:17:59,355 --> 00:18:00,955 And once you do that, there's so much 538 00:18:00,955 --> 00:18:02,955 CapEx tied up in it. That's your job. 539 00:18:02,955 --> 00:18:04,955 That's no one's gonna because you're the expert 540 00:18:04,955 --> 00:18:07,035 on that project. And, like, I think there's 541 00:18:07,035 --> 00:18:09,115 more opportunities for that than we think. It's 542 00:18:09,115 --> 00:18:11,295 just that we don't wanna do the nontechnical 543 00:18:11,515 --> 00:18:13,890 stuff that that has to happen in order 544 00:18:13,890 --> 00:18:16,369 to to to build that opportunity. Well, because 545 00:18:16,369 --> 00:18:18,369 think about, like, how many different steps you 546 00:18:18,369 --> 00:18:20,369 just outlined in order to bring something like 547 00:18:20,369 --> 00:18:22,690 that over the line. You need to recognize 548 00:18:22,769 --> 00:18:25,990 find the problem, recognize the problem, propose it 549 00:18:26,049 --> 00:18:28,869 to your lead, your management, whoever it is, 550 00:18:29,305 --> 00:18:29,805 Engage 551 00:18:30,505 --> 00:18:32,904 however many vendors maybe you're running a proposal 552 00:18:32,904 --> 00:18:35,305 process so now you're scoping a solution between 553 00:18:35,305 --> 00:18:36,365 three different vendors. 554 00:18:36,664 --> 00:18:38,125 You're working with the VAR 555 00:18:38,505 --> 00:18:41,305 or whatever partner you have in your organization 556 00:18:41,305 --> 00:18:43,529 to implement that and you're involved in the 557 00:18:43,529 --> 00:18:45,470 whole life cycle all the way through 558 00:18:46,169 --> 00:18:47,309 installation and management. 559 00:18:47,929 --> 00:18:49,929 Now, you didn't just learn the techno like, 560 00:18:49,929 --> 00:18:51,789 the technical skills to get that implemented. 561 00:18:52,169 --> 00:18:54,569 Think about, like, the internal sales skills, the 562 00:18:54,569 --> 00:18:56,750 proposal skills, the communication skills. 563 00:18:57,625 --> 00:18:58,125 It's 564 00:18:58,664 --> 00:19:01,144 the full stack. So And then when you're 565 00:19:01,144 --> 00:19:02,825 finished, you have the full stack. I just 566 00:19:02,904 --> 00:19:03,884 I think you can 567 00:19:04,345 --> 00:19:06,105 I think you can jump into something like 568 00:19:06,105 --> 00:19:07,724 this without that much risk? 569 00:19:08,025 --> 00:19:09,565 Like, you can you can and 570 00:19:09,919 --> 00:19:11,759 no doubt, you will try. And there have 571 00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:13,919 been times when I've tried, and halfway through, 572 00:19:13,919 --> 00:19:15,919 they're like, no. No. You know what? Stop 573 00:19:15,919 --> 00:19:17,919 this. This is not this is not what 574 00:19:17,919 --> 00:19:19,919 we need. Let's just work on something. Like, 575 00:19:19,919 --> 00:19:21,919 okay. But but the 50% of it that 576 00:19:21,919 --> 00:19:23,359 I did get through, I learned a ton 577 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,085 of stuff. And I was and and never 578 00:19:26,085 --> 00:19:28,404 you can do it alone. Never can you, 579 00:19:28,404 --> 00:19:30,565 like, you cannot work on procurement as a 580 00:19:30,565 --> 00:19:32,884 network engineer. And you don't want to. Right? 581 00:19:32,884 --> 00:19:35,924 You don't you you cannot work on on, 582 00:19:36,325 --> 00:19:38,884 talking with circuits people and negotiating with service 583 00:19:38,884 --> 00:19:40,740 providers. Ugh, why would you want to? Like, 584 00:19:40,740 --> 00:19:42,019 no. No. You go make friends with the 585 00:19:42,019 --> 00:19:43,000 person that does 586 00:19:43,380 --> 00:19:44,920 and and that kind of thing. 587 00:19:45,220 --> 00:19:46,820 And I don't know. I I feel like 588 00:19:46,820 --> 00:19:48,340 it's easier than we think it will be. 589 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:49,700 I think we look at something like that, 590 00:19:49,700 --> 00:19:51,320 we're like, too much work. But, 591 00:19:51,855 --> 00:19:53,375 I don't know. Not always. It's not always 592 00:19:53,375 --> 00:19:54,595 as bad as it it is. 593 00:19:55,055 --> 00:19:57,394 Most of that's gonna depend on culture, honestly, 594 00:19:57,454 --> 00:19:59,375 and how the culture of the company is. 595 00:19:59,375 --> 00:20:01,535 Because in some companies, you're still facing this 596 00:20:01,535 --> 00:20:03,795 idea of no mind, mind, 597 00:20:04,174 --> 00:20:04,674 mind. 598 00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:07,690 Right? So you've got to find ways of 599 00:20:08,069 --> 00:20:09,929 getting around that and friendship, 600 00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:12,889 building the connections as you talk about Alexis, 601 00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:14,789 that's a big way of getting around the 602 00:20:14,789 --> 00:20:15,289 mind. 603 00:20:16,309 --> 00:20:16,809 Yeah. 604 00:20:17,394 --> 00:20:19,234 Well, because people start to people start to 605 00:20:19,234 --> 00:20:21,474 see you as an alley, and Yeah. It's 606 00:20:21,474 --> 00:20:22,275 a big thing. 607 00:20:22,755 --> 00:20:25,394 Russ, I know you were customer facing once 608 00:20:25,394 --> 00:20:27,394 upon a time. Tom, I'm sure you were 609 00:20:27,394 --> 00:20:28,615 at some point as well. 610 00:20:29,634 --> 00:20:30,134 But 611 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:33,559 people if people like you and trust you 612 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:34,759 and they know what you're about and they 613 00:20:34,759 --> 00:20:35,720 know what you're doing and they know what 614 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,119 you're after they're more likely to include you 615 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:39,179 or to say yes. 616 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,079 I was trying to avoid I've got a 617 00:20:43,079 --> 00:20:44,487 couple notes up here on the side since 618 00:20:44,487 --> 00:20:45,615 we're talking about advocacy from a 619 00:20:46,494 --> 00:20:47,875 presentation I did a couple 620 00:20:48,255 --> 00:20:49,554 a couple times, but 621 00:20:49,934 --> 00:20:52,194 to bring up like personal branding for a 622 00:20:52,734 --> 00:20:54,115 second your brand, your reputation, 623 00:20:55,615 --> 00:20:57,694 a lot of times when this gets brought 624 00:20:57,694 --> 00:20:58,434 up online 625 00:20:58,940 --> 00:21:00,619 people think it's about what you're posting on 626 00:21:00,619 --> 00:21:02,480 LinkedIn or what your profile is 627 00:21:02,940 --> 00:21:05,039 or whatnot. Right? But, especially 628 00:21:05,660 --> 00:21:06,559 in a corporate 629 00:21:06,859 --> 00:21:08,940 setting, it's just what people think of you. 630 00:21:08,940 --> 00:21:10,380 How are you showing up to calls? Are 631 00:21:10,380 --> 00:21:12,394 you always five minutes late? Do you always 632 00:21:12,394 --> 00:21:14,894 look disheveled? Do you always have terrible lighting? 633 00:21:15,115 --> 00:21:17,375 Is your virtual background popping in and out? 634 00:21:17,755 --> 00:21:19,515 When you come to the office do you 635 00:21:19,515 --> 00:21:21,595 look prepared? Do you look half asleep? Do 636 00:21:21,595 --> 00:21:23,595 you always carry in the same coffee cup? 637 00:21:23,595 --> 00:21:26,069 Or you're always wearing a baseball cap? Right? 638 00:21:26,210 --> 00:21:28,049 When you speak in meetings, you know, how 639 00:21:28,049 --> 00:21:29,190 formal are you? 640 00:21:29,490 --> 00:21:31,970 All of those different pieces that form people's 641 00:21:31,970 --> 00:21:34,049 impressions of you or what they remember of 642 00:21:34,049 --> 00:21:36,609 you like all of that those in person 643 00:21:36,609 --> 00:21:39,625 elements also contribute to your brand, and that 644 00:21:39,625 --> 00:21:42,184 has nothing to do with what you're posting 645 00:21:42,184 --> 00:21:42,684 online. 646 00:21:43,464 --> 00:21:46,105 Yep. And for instance, a very common one 647 00:21:46,105 --> 00:21:48,825 we have in the engineering world is you're 648 00:21:48,825 --> 00:21:50,684 sitting in a meeting and somebody says, 649 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:52,599 we need to put a layer two VPN 650 00:21:52,599 --> 00:21:54,200 over here. We need to do what dot 651 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:54,940 one queue. 652 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,579 And five different people will jump in. 653 00:21:58,279 --> 00:22:00,039 And it's like, no. No. No. No. We 654 00:22:00,039 --> 00:22:02,039 should do no. We should do that. No. 655 00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:03,720 We should do this. And all of a 656 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,025 sudden, like, it becomes a brawl or it 657 00:22:06,025 --> 00:22:07,164 becomes one person 658 00:22:07,704 --> 00:22:10,765 just flat out trying to dominate the meeting 659 00:22:11,785 --> 00:22:14,525 by constantly sniping at everyone else's 660 00:22:15,464 --> 00:22:17,964 answers or what they're doing. It's like 661 00:22:18,265 --> 00:22:20,585 there's some degree to which your personal brand 662 00:22:20,585 --> 00:22:22,720 is also, you know what you're doing, I 663 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:23,779 let you go do it. 664 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,720 I trust you. And when you trust them, 665 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,099 they're gonna trust you. 666 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,220 Right? There's like a bidirectional trust thing here. 667 00:22:31,519 --> 00:22:33,679 Yeah. So, Alexis, when you talk about being 668 00:22:33,679 --> 00:22:34,660 customer facing, 669 00:22:34,994 --> 00:22:36,755 one thing that I did at Cisco was 670 00:22:36,755 --> 00:22:38,994 probably the one of the most fun things 671 00:22:38,994 --> 00:22:41,015 I ever did, there's other things as well, 672 00:22:41,474 --> 00:22:41,974 was 673 00:22:42,434 --> 00:22:44,914 on the deployment architecture team, I went to 674 00:22:44,914 --> 00:22:46,835 customers and I said, where does your network 675 00:22:46,835 --> 00:22:47,335 hurt? 676 00:22:49,410 --> 00:22:51,429 Right? Where does your network hurt? 677 00:22:52,369 --> 00:22:54,289 They would tell me. Trust me. They would 678 00:22:54,289 --> 00:22:55,750 tell me. Right? 679 00:22:56,130 --> 00:22:57,429 And then I could say, 680 00:22:57,970 --> 00:22:59,650 well, let's figure out how do we design 681 00:22:59,650 --> 00:23:01,670 around that. And in the meantime, 682 00:23:02,664 --> 00:23:04,204 they're giving me features 683 00:23:04,505 --> 00:23:05,404 and products 684 00:23:06,664 --> 00:23:09,644 that I then take back to the company 685 00:23:10,105 --> 00:23:12,505 and say I've seen five customers this week 686 00:23:12,505 --> 00:23:13,724 say it hurts here. 687 00:23:14,549 --> 00:23:17,049 We need to do something about that 688 00:23:17,670 --> 00:23:18,170 problem. 689 00:23:18,549 --> 00:23:20,570 We've gotta stop customers from hurting 690 00:23:20,870 --> 00:23:23,289 there. And so that was an absolutely 691 00:23:23,590 --> 00:23:26,549 fantastic job because I could build trust on 692 00:23:26,549 --> 00:23:27,850 both sides of the aisle. 693 00:23:28,775 --> 00:23:30,394 So that was that was probably 694 00:23:32,775 --> 00:23:34,454 Yeah. Internally, and that was one of the 695 00:23:34,454 --> 00:23:37,255 best jobs of being a a solutions engineer. 696 00:23:37,255 --> 00:23:39,414 Right? Because you could help the customers, but 697 00:23:39,414 --> 00:23:42,315 you also get to advocate for them internally. 698 00:23:42,534 --> 00:23:46,450 Yeah. Whether that's like, with tack, or a 699 00:23:46,450 --> 00:23:48,950 good product, depending on the day. Yeah. 700 00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:51,830 Yeah. Well, tack was always just a big 701 00:23:52,049 --> 00:23:52,549 fire, 702 00:23:53,009 --> 00:23:54,070 constant fire. 703 00:23:54,609 --> 00:23:56,690 The only thing fun about global escalation was 704 00:23:56,690 --> 00:23:58,289 no matter how bad the network was, it 705 00:23:58,289 --> 00:23:59,704 wasn't getting any worse. 706 00:24:04,724 --> 00:24:06,565 You always walk out with a cape in 707 00:24:06,565 --> 00:24:08,105 global escalation because 708 00:24:08,964 --> 00:24:10,984 there's no place to go but up. 709 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,200 So, yes. So I think the advocacy thing 710 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,440 though is partially to putting yourself in that 711 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:19,339 position. Like, 712 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,980 you may not have a customer facing role. 713 00:24:22,679 --> 00:24:24,859 There is not well, I shouldn't say this. 714 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,259 There shouldn't be any sales engineers 715 00:24:27,715 --> 00:24:30,035 who care if you're on the back line 716 00:24:30,035 --> 00:24:30,535 someplace 717 00:24:31,075 --> 00:24:32,934 if you join a customer call, 718 00:24:33,394 --> 00:24:35,174 especially if you're in a in a technology 719 00:24:35,235 --> 00:24:35,735 company. 720 00:24:36,115 --> 00:24:38,275 Right? Okay. If you work for a grocery 721 00:24:38,275 --> 00:24:40,755 store, maybe you don't wanna join the customer 722 00:24:40,755 --> 00:24:41,250 calls. 723 00:24:43,089 --> 00:24:44,789 But if you work for a tech company, 724 00:24:45,329 --> 00:24:47,009 you should try to weasel your way into 725 00:24:47,009 --> 00:24:48,630 getting on the customer calls 726 00:24:49,009 --> 00:24:50,470 and hearing what they say. 727 00:24:51,410 --> 00:24:54,049 Yeah. Or just asking questions. Yeah. Just asking 728 00:24:54,049 --> 00:24:55,670 questions. Experience. Yeah. 729 00:24:56,289 --> 00:24:56,789 Yeah. 730 00:24:58,174 --> 00:25:00,734 But yeah, as far as to circle back 731 00:25:00,734 --> 00:25:03,634 to, like, advocating for yourself in your 732 00:25:04,174 --> 00:25:05,474 career development sessions, 733 00:25:06,335 --> 00:25:08,355 I think it goes back to, like, 734 00:25:08,654 --> 00:25:09,634 having a windsheet, 735 00:25:10,460 --> 00:25:12,619 making sure that every we talked about, 736 00:25:13,099 --> 00:25:14,799 personal branding a little bit so 737 00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:16,700 what people think of you, how people think 738 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:19,579 of you, and all little interactions add up. 739 00:25:19,579 --> 00:25:21,019 So, when you show up to a meeting 740 00:25:21,019 --> 00:25:22,460 are you prepared? When you have your one 741 00:25:22,460 --> 00:25:23,819 on one with your manager do you walk 742 00:25:23,819 --> 00:25:24,799 in with an agenda? 743 00:25:25,144 --> 00:25:27,065 And you know what you did this week? 744 00:25:27,065 --> 00:25:29,144 Or when they say, hey, Alexis, how was 745 00:25:29,144 --> 00:25:30,984 your week? And you go, and they're like, 746 00:25:30,984 --> 00:25:32,444 what did you work on? And you go, 747 00:25:32,744 --> 00:25:34,044 let me check my calendar. 748 00:25:34,585 --> 00:25:36,105 Or, can you look at the list of 749 00:25:36,105 --> 00:25:37,325 things that you checked off 750 00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:39,500 immediately and go well I did this, I 751 00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:40,399 did this, I did this, I did this. 752 00:25:40,399 --> 00:25:41,119 I had a really 753 00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:43,180 good call with Russ and Tom, and I 754 00:25:43,180 --> 00:25:45,019 learned a lot in this area it was 755 00:25:45,019 --> 00:25:46,720 really interesting because this 756 00:25:47,019 --> 00:25:48,960 do you have something to show or present? 757 00:25:49,945 --> 00:25:50,765 Instead of, 758 00:25:51,545 --> 00:25:53,005 well, it was another week. 759 00:25:53,384 --> 00:25:54,125 How's yours? 760 00:25:54,424 --> 00:25:58,045 Yeah. Right? Yeah. Oh, definitely. Definitely. Definitely true. 761 00:25:58,184 --> 00:25:59,545 And even if you can talk about the 762 00:25:59,545 --> 00:26:01,945 things you've learned. Now, this looks different for 763 00:26:01,945 --> 00:26:03,865 late career people than it does for early 764 00:26:03,865 --> 00:26:06,380 career people, by the way. This is something 765 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:09,720 like, when you've been doing this for thirty 766 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,240 years, people say, what do you wanna be 767 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:12,059 in five years? 768 00:26:12,599 --> 00:26:14,220 I don't I don't even know the answer. 769 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:16,920 Like, I have no idea what you're asking 770 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,080 me. What new technologies would you like to 771 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:19,580 learn? 772 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,259 I I don't know. 773 00:26:21,875 --> 00:26:24,034 Like, I've been doing this for thirty years. 774 00:26:24,034 --> 00:26:26,115 I don't I don't know. I don't want 775 00:26:26,115 --> 00:26:28,375 I don't want any new technologies. Yeah. 776 00:26:30,274 --> 00:26:31,794 Well, I think the answer there is to 777 00:26:31,794 --> 00:26:33,714 say, you know, I I'd like to be 778 00:26:33,714 --> 00:26:36,134 mentoring people or whatever the case might be. 779 00:26:37,409 --> 00:26:38,929 Although you have to be careful about being 780 00:26:38,929 --> 00:26:40,529 a people manager too. I was a people 781 00:26:40,529 --> 00:26:43,009 manager once in my life, and I regretted 782 00:26:43,009 --> 00:26:45,029 it every day from the day I stopped 783 00:26:45,409 --> 00:26:47,089 from the day I started until the day 784 00:26:47,089 --> 00:26:47,669 I stopped. 785 00:26:48,369 --> 00:26:50,210 Simply just aren't cut out to be people 786 00:26:50,210 --> 00:26:50,710 managers. 787 00:26:51,095 --> 00:26:53,494 So be very careful about saying, I wanna 788 00:26:53,494 --> 00:26:55,095 be a vice president. Yeah. I know. How 789 00:26:55,095 --> 00:26:56,234 about you just, like, 790 00:26:56,934 --> 00:26:59,654 really think about that before you make those 791 00:26:59,654 --> 00:27:00,795 kinds of goals? 792 00:27:03,390 --> 00:27:05,549 Well and I think that's hard too because 793 00:27:05,549 --> 00:27:06,049 for 794 00:27:06,830 --> 00:27:07,330 and 795 00:27:07,869 --> 00:27:09,650 not for, but in a lot of organizations, 796 00:27:10,269 --> 00:27:12,910 the path up, once you're looking at the 797 00:27:12,910 --> 00:27:13,410 ladder, 798 00:27:13,710 --> 00:27:15,730 management seems like the only option. 799 00:27:16,384 --> 00:27:18,965 Right? When there really are more technical options, 800 00:27:19,664 --> 00:27:22,164 especially at larger companies where you could be, 801 00:27:23,985 --> 00:27:24,884 what's it called, 802 00:27:25,505 --> 00:27:26,644 like a field CTO 803 00:27:27,105 --> 00:27:27,605 or, 804 00:27:28,305 --> 00:27:29,684 like a senior architect 805 00:27:30,384 --> 00:27:33,400 where you're an architect over other architects, where 806 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,099 you get pulled in for the big problems 807 00:27:35,559 --> 00:27:38,619 or the really hard ones, and you're not 808 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:41,900 necessarily managing people, you're mentoring people, you're still 809 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:43,980 a senior or an individual contributor, 810 00:27:44,434 --> 00:27:46,615 but other people rely on you for help 811 00:27:46,994 --> 00:27:49,734 versus you are responsible for a team. 812 00:27:50,115 --> 00:27:51,015 Yeah. Exactly. 813 00:27:51,634 --> 00:27:54,194 Yeah. And that's, you know, some particularly if 814 00:27:54,194 --> 00:27:55,634 you're if you're interested in that kind of 815 00:27:55,634 --> 00:27:57,414 thing, go to a vendor. 816 00:27:59,019 --> 00:28:01,180 Go to a vendor, go to a, I 817 00:28:01,180 --> 00:28:03,980 don't know, go to a cloud company, something 818 00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:05,039 like that. Because 819 00:28:05,740 --> 00:28:08,700 those companies have senior level technology people don't 820 00:28:08,700 --> 00:28:10,539 think that you're gonna become a senior level 821 00:28:10,539 --> 00:28:12,240 technology people person 822 00:28:12,615 --> 00:28:14,394 working for a retail store 823 00:28:15,015 --> 00:28:17,255 for the most part, because those positions, they 824 00:28:17,255 --> 00:28:18,075 just don't exist. 825 00:28:18,934 --> 00:28:20,474 They just they're just not there. 826 00:28:20,775 --> 00:28:21,515 And so 827 00:28:22,375 --> 00:28:24,375 Well, and a good way to find that 828 00:28:24,375 --> 00:28:26,970 out, again, is to do more networking with 829 00:28:26,970 --> 00:28:29,049 senior engineers on your team or talk to 830 00:28:29,049 --> 00:28:31,610 your manager. Yeah. And say, you know, my 831 00:28:31,610 --> 00:28:33,470 goal is to be a distinguished architect. 832 00:28:33,850 --> 00:28:35,450 I saw someone on LinkedIn that had that 833 00:28:35,450 --> 00:28:37,125 title, and it sounded really cool. And I 834 00:28:37,125 --> 00:28:38,404 see what they do. And their job looks 835 00:28:38,404 --> 00:28:39,605 awesome. And I think that's what I want 836 00:28:39,605 --> 00:28:41,684 to be at the pinnacle of my career. 837 00:28:41,684 --> 00:28:42,744 How can I get there? 838 00:28:43,045 --> 00:28:44,805 And your manager should be honest and be 839 00:28:44,805 --> 00:28:46,805 like, hey, we don't have that one. You 840 00:28:46,805 --> 00:28:48,964 might wanna look for else. But is there 841 00:28:48,964 --> 00:28:51,045 experience we can give you here to help 842 00:28:51,045 --> 00:28:52,265 you grow in that direction? 843 00:28:52,644 --> 00:28:52,859 Yeah. 844 00:28:53,819 --> 00:28:54,319 Yep. 845 00:28:54,779 --> 00:28:56,720 I actually held that title once, Alexis. 846 00:28:57,339 --> 00:28:59,579 Really? Yeah. Cisco. That was that was my 847 00:28:59,579 --> 00:29:00,960 title as distinguished architect. 848 00:29:02,380 --> 00:29:03,500 And then I went to work for all 849 00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:05,179 sorts of other companies that don't have that 850 00:29:05,179 --> 00:29:05,679 position. 851 00:29:07,025 --> 00:29:08,944 And that's yeah. It's kind of an odd 852 00:29:08,944 --> 00:29:10,804 thing. But yeah. So 853 00:29:11,424 --> 00:29:13,345 yeah. I think advocating for yourself. I think 854 00:29:13,345 --> 00:29:14,944 the whole idea of a personal brand, like 855 00:29:14,944 --> 00:29:16,565 you said, it's not just 856 00:29:17,184 --> 00:29:18,565 what you post on LinkedIn. 857 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:21,399 It's not just what you write in blog 858 00:29:21,399 --> 00:29:23,500 posts, although I think being publicly visible, 859 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,700 even if nobody reads it is still important. 860 00:29:27,159 --> 00:29:29,259 And people struggle with that concept. 861 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,720 Why should I wrote blog posts if only 862 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,144 five people are gonna read them? Because you 863 00:29:35,085 --> 00:29:38,045 should? I think about it, I think about 864 00:29:38,045 --> 00:29:39,984 it kind of like a 865 00:29:40,365 --> 00:29:41,265 online portfolio. 866 00:29:42,285 --> 00:29:44,225 So if you think about it, like, 867 00:29:44,605 --> 00:29:45,965 if I was going to look for a 868 00:29:45,965 --> 00:29:46,865 new hair salon, 869 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,859 or I want to try a new restaurant, 870 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,380 or I need to go to a mechanic, 871 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:52,680 the first thing that I do is I 872 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,440 either type in Google or I pull up 873 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,680 Yelp, and I read reviews, and I look 874 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,680 at photos, and I look at videos, and 875 00:29:58,680 --> 00:29:59,660 I I see 876 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:00,779 what other 877 00:30:01,365 --> 00:30:03,625 experiences people have had with that business 878 00:30:04,164 --> 00:30:06,404 before I even decide to make a call 879 00:30:06,404 --> 00:30:08,005 for an appointment or walk in the door 880 00:30:08,005 --> 00:30:09,144 to check it out myself. 881 00:30:10,325 --> 00:30:12,184 And your online presence 882 00:30:12,565 --> 00:30:14,265 or your online portfolio, 883 00:30:14,579 --> 00:30:15,240 your resume, 884 00:30:16,019 --> 00:30:18,500 your LinkedIn, whatever it is if you have 885 00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:19,799 a website, a blog site, 886 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:21,559 it's your 887 00:30:22,259 --> 00:30:23,799 work, your business. 888 00:30:24,259 --> 00:30:25,559 Just like Yelp, 889 00:30:26,704 --> 00:30:27,525 the hair salon, 890 00:30:28,384 --> 00:30:29,845 right? Your digital presence 891 00:30:30,144 --> 00:30:32,164 is your portfolio of your work. 892 00:30:32,785 --> 00:30:34,305 And like you said Russ, there's a ton 893 00:30:34,305 --> 00:30:36,065 of different ways you can showcase that outside 894 00:30:36,065 --> 00:30:37,845 of your resume that are 895 00:30:38,224 --> 00:30:38,724 searchable, 896 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,059 whether that's through LinkedIn, whether that's through Google, 897 00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:44,779 whether that's through YouTube, whether it's through GitHub 898 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,240 when you're posting content on any of those 899 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:47,740 platforms, 900 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,859 they come up in search results. So, recruiters 901 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,605 can find you and you might get your 902 00:30:52,605 --> 00:30:54,944 help. You might get yourself exposed to opportunities 903 00:30:55,005 --> 00:30:56,384 that you're not even aware of. 904 00:30:57,164 --> 00:30:58,305 Yep. Absolutely. 905 00:30:59,404 --> 00:31:01,404 I think there's also a ton of kind 906 00:31:01,404 --> 00:31:03,744 of on the personal branding concept still, 907 00:31:04,125 --> 00:31:06,369 there's a ton of value. Like, you mentioned 908 00:31:06,369 --> 00:31:07,730 Alexis, like, are you always the guy that 909 00:31:07,730 --> 00:31:08,929 wears a hat? And I'm wearing a hat 910 00:31:08,929 --> 00:31:09,669 right now. 911 00:31:10,369 --> 00:31:12,929 And I I happen to wear I happen 912 00:31:12,929 --> 00:31:14,609 to just in our stand up meetings, I 913 00:31:14,609 --> 00:31:16,049 happen to wear a hat. It's just what 914 00:31:16,049 --> 00:31:17,490 I do. I don't I don't know. It's 915 00:31:17,490 --> 00:31:19,169 just a habit that I have. I'm a 916 00:31:19,169 --> 00:31:20,849 remote worker and so it's fine. But, 917 00:31:21,914 --> 00:31:23,755 but the thing is, there's other things that 918 00:31:23,755 --> 00:31:25,195 that can be part of you that are 919 00:31:25,195 --> 00:31:26,654 just just what you do. 920 00:31:27,115 --> 00:31:28,174 And and arguably, 921 00:31:28,475 --> 00:31:29,914 you know, what you wear, you know, that's 922 00:31:29,914 --> 00:31:31,595 an that's a great example of something really 923 00:31:31,595 --> 00:31:32,654 visible. It's easy. 924 00:31:33,434 --> 00:31:35,355 But, like, how you how you show up, 925 00:31:35,355 --> 00:31:35,855 meaning, 926 00:31:37,019 --> 00:31:38,799 when when someone asks you for help, 927 00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:40,160 how do you respond? 928 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:42,700 Is it based on how much that person 929 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:44,700 can do for you? Or is it based 930 00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:45,920 on what your 931 00:31:46,220 --> 00:31:48,875 what your values are? Is it, like, are 932 00:31:48,875 --> 00:31:51,194 you always very straight up with them and 933 00:31:51,194 --> 00:31:53,514 very, like, to the point? And and maybe 934 00:31:53,514 --> 00:31:54,794 that's you and that's what you have to 935 00:31:54,794 --> 00:31:56,554 be, but be that way with everybody. Or 936 00:31:56,554 --> 00:31:58,394 maybe you're, like, really kind or maybe you're 937 00:31:58,394 --> 00:32:00,714 just, like, really, you know, you're someone that 938 00:32:00,714 --> 00:32:02,554 no matter what, someone can ask you questions 939 00:32:02,554 --> 00:32:04,340 and and they know that you're not gonna 940 00:32:04,340 --> 00:32:05,940 come down on them for, oh, why didn't 941 00:32:05,940 --> 00:32:07,700 you already know that or whatever. Like, whatever 942 00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:10,019 it is, that the way that like, that 943 00:32:10,019 --> 00:32:10,680 to me, 944 00:32:11,059 --> 00:32:11,799 it doesn't 945 00:32:12,660 --> 00:32:15,140 and usually, that's almost 90% I would say 946 00:32:15,140 --> 00:32:16,660 more than 90% of the time. That's when 947 00:32:16,660 --> 00:32:18,200 you're operating with your peers. 948 00:32:18,544 --> 00:32:20,865 And it it might it might feel like, 949 00:32:20,865 --> 00:32:22,785 well, that's not gonna get me anywhere. But 950 00:32:22,785 --> 00:32:24,865 in my career, it absolutely has gotten me 951 00:32:24,865 --> 00:32:26,384 places. Because first of all, it puts me 952 00:32:26,384 --> 00:32:27,904 in the habit of being the person that 953 00:32:27,904 --> 00:32:29,204 I wanna be all the time. 954 00:32:29,505 --> 00:32:31,664 And then when when people people want to 955 00:32:31,664 --> 00:32:33,230 work with you, and then when you go 956 00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:34,450 to do these extracurricular 957 00:32:34,830 --> 00:32:36,750 things, people are like, oh, yeah. That guy's 958 00:32:36,750 --> 00:32:38,430 cool. That girl's cool. Like, yeah. Yeah. I 959 00:32:38,430 --> 00:32:40,670 wanna like, to me, that is as far 960 00:32:40,670 --> 00:32:43,070 as personal brand. I know them. Yeah. Yeah. 961 00:32:43,070 --> 00:32:44,670 Yeah. And I like them, and that would 962 00:32:44,670 --> 00:32:46,734 be yeah. I'll I'll do some extra some 963 00:32:46,734 --> 00:32:48,335 extra stuff too because I like working with 964 00:32:48,335 --> 00:32:50,494 them. That is worth, I think, a lot 965 00:32:50,494 --> 00:32:53,075 of effort to Yeah. Oh, yeah. Who who 966 00:32:53,855 --> 00:32:55,694 you wanna be the person that when you 967 00:32:55,694 --> 00:32:56,835 go to a conference, 968 00:32:57,694 --> 00:32:59,534 people want to go to lunch and dinner 969 00:32:59,534 --> 00:33:00,194 with you 970 00:33:01,679 --> 00:33:03,919 at work. That's that's what you want to 971 00:33:03,919 --> 00:33:04,419 be. 972 00:33:05,039 --> 00:33:06,720 Because because that's how you're gonna meet people 973 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:08,579 and that's what you're gonna get, you know, 974 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:09,039 you're gonna 975 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,319 sorry to cut you off for us. Go 976 00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:12,819 ahead. 977 00:33:13,214 --> 00:33:15,554 I was gonna say, Tom, it's repeated. 978 00:33:16,015 --> 00:33:17,535 It's not just you can't just be nice 979 00:33:17,535 --> 00:33:19,694 to one person or on one call or 980 00:33:19,694 --> 00:33:20,595 only on Tuesdays. 981 00:33:21,214 --> 00:33:22,815 If you wear a hat every Tuesday no 982 00:33:22,815 --> 00:33:24,734 one's gonna remember it. But, if you wear 983 00:33:24,734 --> 00:33:26,575 it on your daily stand up every day 984 00:33:26,575 --> 00:33:28,369 of the week and one day you don't 985 00:33:28,369 --> 00:33:29,809 wear your hat, the team's gonna be like, 986 00:33:29,809 --> 00:33:30,309 Tom, 987 00:33:31,009 --> 00:33:31,750 you good? 988 00:33:32,369 --> 00:33:33,589 What happened today? 989 00:33:34,130 --> 00:33:34,529 Even, 990 00:33:35,890 --> 00:33:37,190 you know, Russ, earlier 991 00:33:37,649 --> 00:33:38,849 we were talking about, 992 00:33:39,329 --> 00:33:41,730 good good managers that can tell when something's 993 00:33:41,730 --> 00:33:42,230 off. 994 00:33:42,544 --> 00:33:43,424 Right? Yeah. 995 00:33:43,904 --> 00:33:46,065 You show up positive at work every single 996 00:33:46,065 --> 00:33:47,505 day and then one day you have a 997 00:33:47,505 --> 00:33:49,184 bad day and your energy is just way 998 00:33:49,184 --> 00:33:51,345 off or, you know, you make a nasty 999 00:33:51,345 --> 00:33:54,244 comment or you snap and someone's like, woah, 1000 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,559 that's not like you at all. What's going 1001 00:33:56,559 --> 00:33:58,720 on?' Right? Those are the actions you want 1002 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,220 to cultivate because people have an overly 1003 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:02,019 positive 1004 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,880 experience with you. So, when one thing happens 1005 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,720 that negative, when one thing happens that is 1006 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:07,779 negative, they're like, 1007 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:08,900 'Woah, 1008 00:34:09,394 --> 00:34:09,974 you good? 1009 00:34:11,155 --> 00:34:13,954 Yep, definitely true. And don't make it all. 1010 00:34:13,954 --> 00:34:15,315 You know, you've said you've kind of said 1011 00:34:15,315 --> 00:34:17,014 this, both of you kind of said this. 1012 00:34:17,315 --> 00:34:18,934 Don't make it about the transaction. 1013 00:34:19,474 --> 00:34:20,855 Make it about the person. 1014 00:34:21,570 --> 00:34:23,269 Transactional really all relationships 1015 00:34:23,730 --> 00:34:25,349 are to some degree transactional, 1016 00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:29,110 but no relationship should ever be purely transactional. 1017 00:34:29,650 --> 00:34:30,869 And the less transactional 1018 00:34:31,329 --> 00:34:32,630 that it is to me, 1019 00:34:32,930 --> 00:34:35,054 the more of a real relationship it is. 1020 00:34:35,214 --> 00:34:36,894 It's never about what I can give or 1021 00:34:36,894 --> 00:34:38,594 take. It's about the person. 1022 00:34:39,214 --> 00:34:41,375 And we don't do that very well in 1023 00:34:41,375 --> 00:34:42,594 our industry, unfortunately. 1024 00:34:43,295 --> 00:34:44,434 It's just a sad 1025 00:34:44,815 --> 00:34:46,414 well, if I get to know you, will 1026 00:34:46,414 --> 00:34:48,255 you co author a book with me? Will 1027 00:34:48,255 --> 00:34:49,775 you do this? Will you do that? Will 1028 00:34:49,775 --> 00:34:50,969 you give me content? Like 1029 00:34:52,170 --> 00:34:54,809 no. That that's true, but there's huge opportunity 1030 00:34:54,809 --> 00:34:56,329 in that. It is really easy to stand 1031 00:34:56,329 --> 00:34:58,809 out among network engineers. Like, most of them 1032 00:34:58,809 --> 00:35:00,329 are gonna be crusty. They're gonna be, what 1033 00:35:00,329 --> 00:35:01,929 do you want? And I'm I'm I'm so 1034 00:35:01,929 --> 00:35:03,309 scarred by my awful 1035 00:35:03,735 --> 00:35:05,175 pain that I feel in my job that 1036 00:35:05,175 --> 00:35:06,855 everybody is just my enemy. Like, there's a 1037 00:35:06,855 --> 00:35:08,615 ton of network engineers that do that. And 1038 00:35:08,615 --> 00:35:10,295 so it's pretty easy to stand out and 1039 00:35:10,295 --> 00:35:12,375 just be not that. Yeah. And you will 1040 00:35:12,375 --> 00:35:14,295 be remembered because everything around you is not 1041 00:35:14,295 --> 00:35:15,275 that. Yep. 1042 00:35:15,590 --> 00:35:17,289 And also if you get in, 1043 00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:20,329 in with the community, I 1044 00:35:20,869 --> 00:35:22,630 to put a generic term on it, the 1045 00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:24,250 community or the technical community, 1046 00:35:25,269 --> 00:35:26,809 most people who contribute 1047 00:35:27,429 --> 00:35:29,369 or write or create content, 1048 00:35:30,215 --> 00:35:31,894 we all kind of know each other and 1049 00:35:31,894 --> 00:35:33,815 help each other and so if one person's 1050 00:35:33,815 --> 00:35:35,514 working on something and you need something, 1051 00:35:36,295 --> 00:35:38,135 people are more willing to help you because 1052 00:35:38,135 --> 00:35:40,614 there is that give and take. And also 1053 00:35:40,614 --> 00:35:42,215 you feel like you know each other through 1054 00:35:42,215 --> 00:35:44,739 reading each other's works or blogs or videos 1055 00:35:45,199 --> 00:35:46,500 or whatever it is. 1056 00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:48,579 Yep, absolutely. 1057 00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:52,339 Okay, well I think this horse is dead. 1058 00:35:54,639 --> 00:35:56,400 I was gonna say Russ, I do, I 1059 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,339 do have a hard stop in ten minutes, 1060 00:35:58,400 --> 00:35:59,385 but It's fine. 1061 00:35:59,945 --> 00:36:01,704 While we're on the subject of community, if 1062 00:36:01,704 --> 00:36:03,224 we want to talk a little bit about 1063 00:36:03,385 --> 00:36:04,844 Oh, sure. Go right ahead. 1064 00:36:05,144 --> 00:36:07,224 Is that okay? Yeah, go right ahead. I 1065 00:36:07,224 --> 00:36:08,744 didn't know if you were okay with me. 1066 00:36:08,744 --> 00:36:10,925 No, I'm always fine. It's fine. 1067 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,579 So Russ and I are both speaking, 1068 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:15,960 on an event that is going to be 1069 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:17,659 held in late October. 1070 00:36:18,279 --> 00:36:18,779 So 1071 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,819 I don't think I ever introduced myself, actually. 1072 00:36:22,039 --> 00:36:23,659 But I'm a technical evangelist 1073 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:25,659 at a a company called Megaport. 1074 00:36:26,114 --> 00:36:27,574 And what Megaport is 1075 00:36:28,034 --> 00:36:30,914 really good at is connecting data centers to 1076 00:36:30,914 --> 00:36:32,355 the cloud. It's kind of what we became 1077 00:36:32,355 --> 00:36:36,114 known for. And I joined Megaport in October 1078 00:36:36,114 --> 00:36:38,594 as a technical evangelist, and I came from 1079 00:36:38,594 --> 00:36:40,775 Cisco. So, my whole background was networking. 1080 00:36:41,150 --> 00:36:42,670 And, when I came over to Megaport it 1081 00:36:42,670 --> 00:36:45,730 was all cloud this, cloud that, hybrid multi, 1082 00:36:46,829 --> 00:36:48,449 cloud everything. And so, 1083 00:36:48,750 --> 00:36:49,789 I was a little bit out of my 1084 00:36:49,789 --> 00:36:51,230 element I had a lot of learning to 1085 00:36:51,230 --> 00:36:54,030 do and when I did my initial scoping 1086 00:36:54,030 --> 00:36:55,550 of things I wanted to work on I 1087 00:36:55,550 --> 00:36:57,764 noticed that there was a lot of resources 1088 00:36:57,764 --> 00:36:59,684 to learn cloud, there was a lot of 1089 00:36:59,684 --> 00:37:01,144 resources to learn networking, 1090 00:37:01,684 --> 00:37:03,864 but there wasn't a lot in between. 1091 00:37:04,565 --> 00:37:06,724 And, increasingly what we're seeing with a lot 1092 00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:08,724 of our customers, with even my customers at 1093 00:37:08,724 --> 00:37:09,224 Cisco, 1094 00:37:09,605 --> 00:37:11,639 is that network engineers are being told that 1095 00:37:11,639 --> 00:37:13,420 now you're managing these cloud connections 1096 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,099 because they are network 1097 00:37:15,559 --> 00:37:16,859 connections into the cloud. 1098 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:19,239 And, you've either never done it before, you 1099 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:20,679 don't have experience, you don't know if you're 1100 00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:21,500 doing it correctly, 1101 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:23,400 but you got to figure it out and 1102 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,260 there's not a lot of resources online. 1103 00:37:26,015 --> 00:37:26,515 And 1104 00:37:26,894 --> 00:37:27,954 so, my brainchild, 1105 00:37:28,574 --> 00:37:30,175 when I came to Megaport was to hold 1106 00:37:30,175 --> 00:37:31,855 this big virtual event with all of our 1107 00:37:31,855 --> 00:37:32,355 partners 1108 00:37:32,735 --> 00:37:35,074 whether that's VARs, cloud providers, 1109 00:37:36,255 --> 00:37:38,835 you know senior engineers in our network 1110 00:37:39,614 --> 00:37:42,599 to come and host an event to help 1111 00:37:42,599 --> 00:37:44,780 all engineers at any technical level 1112 00:37:45,319 --> 00:37:47,579 be better at connecting into the cloud. So, 1113 00:37:47,799 --> 00:37:49,739 it is a free event for the community, 1114 00:37:50,359 --> 00:37:53,000 there are there actually isn't a standard megaport 1115 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,159 demo included. We wanted it to be completely 1116 00:37:55,159 --> 00:37:56,059 vendor agnostic. 1117 00:37:56,574 --> 00:37:58,815 We've got people from all of the cloud 1118 00:37:58,815 --> 00:38:01,554 providers, all of the big data center operators. 1119 00:38:01,614 --> 00:38:02,914 We've got people like Russ 1120 00:38:03,215 --> 00:38:04,914 coming to present as well, 1121 00:38:05,614 --> 00:38:07,554 and it's gonna be a really great time. 1122 00:38:08,414 --> 00:38:10,655 If y'all would like to come, it's gonna 1123 00:38:10,655 --> 00:38:11,315 be great. 1124 00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:13,619 Yeah, I think it'll be awesome. 1125 00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:15,300 So great. 1126 00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:16,099 Okay. 1127 00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:20,079 So Alexis, where can people get in touch 1128 00:38:20,079 --> 00:38:21,360 with you? I don't know if you have 1129 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,599 a blog or anything. But where can people 1130 00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:24,960 get in touch with you if they want 1131 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:25,699 to or 1132 00:38:26,105 --> 00:38:28,204 follow you or whatever the case is? 1133 00:38:28,585 --> 00:38:29,724 I don't have a blog. 1134 00:38:30,344 --> 00:38:32,505 But if you look me up, I'm on 1135 00:38:32,505 --> 00:38:34,284 LinkedIn, Alexis Berthoff, 1136 00:38:34,744 --> 00:38:37,484 or Instagram or TikTok at digital 1137 00:38:37,784 --> 00:38:41,164 dot b y t e. Okay. Cool. 1138 00:38:41,550 --> 00:38:43,170 And Tom, go ahead and say it. 1139 00:38:43,550 --> 00:38:45,869 LinkedIn. Alright. We'll see. We got it. We 1140 00:38:45,869 --> 00:38:46,690 got past that. 1141 00:38:48,430 --> 00:38:50,989 Also, we should since we started this, we 1142 00:38:50,989 --> 00:38:54,030 we should keep keep this going. Who let's 1143 00:38:54,030 --> 00:38:55,010 name the plant. 1144 00:38:55,775 --> 00:38:57,454 If you wanna name the plant, you can 1145 00:38:57,454 --> 00:38:59,215 find me on LinkedIn or Russ. 1146 00:38:59,695 --> 00:39:00,195 And 1147 00:39:00,494 --> 00:39:01,855 if you have a cool name, then we 1148 00:39:01,855 --> 00:39:03,235 will name the plant your name. 1149 00:39:05,934 --> 00:39:07,394 Man, I should've put my name 1150 00:39:08,309 --> 00:39:10,550 That's just weird. You should. You should you 1151 00:39:10,550 --> 00:39:12,090 should you should make a suggestions 1152 00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:14,630 and and, you know, see where it goes. 1153 00:39:14,630 --> 00:39:16,469 Alright. Cool. Alright. I'm Russ White. You can 1154 00:39:16,469 --> 00:39:17,430 find me here at the hedge. You can 1155 00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:18,550 find rule11.tech. 1156 00:39:18,550 --> 00:39:19,769 You can find me on LinkedIn. 1157 00:39:20,414 --> 00:39:22,655 On x, every now and then, not a 1158 00:39:22,655 --> 00:39:24,335 ton, but I do log in from time 1159 00:39:24,335 --> 00:39:24,914 to time. 1160 00:39:25,215 --> 00:39:26,735 Most time, once a week when I publish 1161 00:39:26,735 --> 00:39:28,335 a new hedge, that's when I actually log 1162 00:39:28,335 --> 00:39:28,835 in. 1163 00:39:30,094 --> 00:39:31,695 And so we know that we live in 1164 00:39:31,695 --> 00:39:33,849 an attention driven economy, and we thank you 1165 00:39:33,849 --> 00:39:35,690 for spending time with us and giving us 1166 00:39:35,690 --> 00:39:36,349 your attention. 1167 00:39:36,889 --> 00:39:38,489 And we hope that you had a lot 1168 00:39:38,489 --> 00:39:39,929 of fun going all the way to the 1169 00:39:39,929 --> 00:39:41,469 bitter end of this poor podcast, 1170 00:39:41,769 --> 00:39:43,550 and we will catch you next time.