1 00:00:01,599 --> 00:00:03,600 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,580 where we dig into technology, business, and culture 3 00:00:06,639 --> 00:00:08,980 with the finest minds in computer networking. 4 00:00:21,185 --> 00:00:23,744 Well, hello, Tom. How are you? Hey, Russ. 5 00:00:23,744 --> 00:00:25,285 I'm doing great. How are you doing? 6 00:00:25,904 --> 00:00:28,385 I'm fine. I I I am examining the 7 00:00:28,385 --> 00:00:30,140 plant to see if there's 8 00:00:30,679 --> 00:00:32,379 any massive changes. 9 00:00:33,399 --> 00:00:35,100 Nope. It's pretty healthy right now. 10 00:00:36,039 --> 00:00:37,579 Have you been turning it regularly? 11 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:39,719 I have not, but I think my wife 12 00:00:39,719 --> 00:00:41,960 probably has. So Yeah. Okay. Good. Because that 13 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:43,875 would be that's the best thing to do. 14 00:00:46,115 --> 00:00:48,435 It's a horticultural show, Rick was telling us, 15 00:00:48,435 --> 00:00:50,835 so. Yeah, you need to turn your plants 16 00:00:50,835 --> 00:00:53,015 like you rotate your drinks and you're covered. 17 00:00:55,875 --> 00:00:58,354 It's like a rotational thing. And today we 18 00:00:58,354 --> 00:00:59,255 have Rick Graziani, 19 00:01:00,090 --> 00:01:00,829 So, Rick, 20 00:01:01,530 --> 00:01:02,250 you're out at, 21 00:01:02,890 --> 00:01:03,390 Cabriolet 22 00:01:03,929 --> 00:01:06,170 College, right, in California. Is that the right 23 00:01:07,209 --> 00:01:11,310 Yeah. Cabrio College. Cabrio. See? No. Forget it. 24 00:01:11,369 --> 00:01:13,450 I'm just no good at this pronunciation thing. 25 00:01:13,450 --> 00:01:15,545 I'm giving up. You're doing okay. Really. 26 00:01:15,924 --> 00:01:17,144 Because most most people 27 00:01:18,004 --> 00:01:21,224 also over at, University of California Santa Cruz 28 00:01:21,524 --> 00:01:22,024 and, 29 00:01:22,965 --> 00:01:24,504 whoever else will have me. 30 00:01:24,884 --> 00:01:27,524 Whoever else will have me. That's about the 31 00:01:27,524 --> 00:01:30,024 way I feel right now. So okay. 32 00:01:30,450 --> 00:01:32,069 Cool. So we started out 33 00:01:32,769 --> 00:01:34,709 talking before the show about 34 00:01:35,090 --> 00:01:37,170 theory and practice again. I know this is 35 00:01:37,170 --> 00:01:39,409 like a hobby horse for me. I know 36 00:01:39,409 --> 00:01:41,090 I'm, like, on it all the time and 37 00:01:41,090 --> 00:01:41,909 people think, 38 00:01:42,209 --> 00:01:44,450 could you just shut up about the theory 39 00:01:44,450 --> 00:01:44,950 thing? 40 00:01:51,685 --> 00:01:53,784 So Tom's over here shaking his head. Yeah. 41 00:01:53,844 --> 00:01:54,344 Yeah. 42 00:01:55,284 --> 00:01:56,805 No, I like it. I mean, it's great. 43 00:01:56,805 --> 00:01:58,564 We should talk about it more. So, 44 00:02:00,090 --> 00:02:02,090 you were relating, Rick, that you that your 45 00:02:02,090 --> 00:02:04,329 students Rick teaches college if you haven't figured 46 00:02:04,329 --> 00:02:06,569 this out. He's a professor. So we have 47 00:02:06,569 --> 00:02:07,230 to, like 48 00:02:07,689 --> 00:02:10,090 he's very, you know, he's very fancy. He's 49 00:02:10,090 --> 00:02:11,770 got the background with the, you know, like, 50 00:02:11,770 --> 00:02:14,175 the dark wood and the books and the 51 00:02:14,415 --> 00:02:16,415 cape and the hat, all that stuff there. 52 00:02:16,415 --> 00:02:18,814 Yeah. That's yes. Yes. I have my my 53 00:02:18,814 --> 00:02:19,314 little 54 00:02:19,694 --> 00:02:21,055 cap and gown on all the 55 00:02:23,135 --> 00:02:24,735 So when you walk down the path at 56 00:02:24,735 --> 00:02:26,895 the college, you get that billowing effect from 57 00:02:26,895 --> 00:02:28,754 the Oh, it always. 58 00:02:30,479 --> 00:02:31,939 I carry a leather briefcase. 59 00:02:33,039 --> 00:02:33,539 Nice. 60 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:36,740 And is it brown or black? 61 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,180 Oh, the brown. It's a little dirty brown 62 00:02:41,039 --> 00:02:43,199 leather briefcase. Yeah. I I I know. I 63 00:02:43,199 --> 00:02:44,259 have to look smart. 64 00:02:44,705 --> 00:02:46,144 It's a book that's on. It's funny I 65 00:02:46,144 --> 00:02:47,444 have the books in the background. 66 00:02:47,944 --> 00:02:48,444 I'm 67 00:02:48,944 --> 00:02:50,724 not even allowed to keep them at home, 68 00:02:50,864 --> 00:02:52,724 and that's really the main reason. 69 00:02:53,664 --> 00:02:55,424 Yeah. I just you know, you know, we 70 00:02:55,424 --> 00:02:57,689 talked about the the the, you know The 71 00:02:57,689 --> 00:03:00,729 Internet yellow pages. Internet yellow pages. Yes. I 72 00:03:00,729 --> 00:03:02,810 still have my copy of the Internet yellow 73 00:03:02,810 --> 00:03:04,090 pages. You know, I wish I had some 74 00:03:04,090 --> 00:03:06,489 of the old old, Whole Earth catalogs I 75 00:03:06,489 --> 00:03:07,310 used to have, 76 00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:09,370 but I threw them around on some way. 77 00:03:09,370 --> 00:03:11,885 I should have just kept them all. Like, 78 00:03:12,105 --> 00:03:14,525 you you remember the whole the whole catalog, 79 00:03:15,145 --> 00:03:17,465 like, you know, Stewart Brand. I I should 80 00:03:17,465 --> 00:03:19,245 have but anyway alright. So 81 00:03:19,705 --> 00:03:21,724 we were talking about theory and practice 82 00:03:22,025 --> 00:03:24,444 and not really practice so much as configuration. 83 00:03:25,169 --> 00:03:27,169 And you were saying before we started that 84 00:03:27,169 --> 00:03:29,430 you have some experiences from your students 85 00:03:30,289 --> 00:03:32,050 who talk about this because they're in the 86 00:03:32,050 --> 00:03:33,509 job market. You 87 00:03:33,810 --> 00:03:35,750 many of many of us are, but anyway, 88 00:03:35,810 --> 00:03:37,030 you're in the job market. 89 00:03:37,729 --> 00:03:38,469 And so 90 00:03:39,165 --> 00:03:41,004 what what are you hearing from the job 91 00:03:41,004 --> 00:03:42,544 market from your students 92 00:03:42,925 --> 00:03:43,985 about this thing? 93 00:03:44,284 --> 00:03:45,805 You know, first of all, I and I 94 00:03:45,805 --> 00:03:47,824 I I mentioned this at the, you know, 95 00:03:47,965 --> 00:03:48,944 before we went, 96 00:03:49,405 --> 00:03:52,365 started recording, but I start every one of 97 00:03:52,365 --> 00:03:54,650 my courses. Oh my gosh. Yes. I know 98 00:03:54,650 --> 00:03:55,949 you're not gonna like this. 99 00:03:56,409 --> 00:03:57,949 But with this quote, 100 00:03:58,889 --> 00:04:02,509 that that from you, that that that reply 101 00:04:02,650 --> 00:04:06,430 that you made to Yvonne Peptimek. Right? Peptimek. 102 00:04:06,569 --> 00:04:07,275 Yeah. Yeah. 103 00:04:08,235 --> 00:04:08,894 On LinkedIn. 104 00:04:09,194 --> 00:04:11,914 And, that, you'll have to spend time in 105 00:04:11,914 --> 00:04:12,574 the theory 106 00:04:12,954 --> 00:04:14,894 and in the history. And I think that's 107 00:04:15,034 --> 00:04:18,074 important too because far too many people become 108 00:04:18,074 --> 00:04:18,574 configuration 109 00:04:18,875 --> 00:04:21,354 experts and don't understand the first thing they 110 00:04:21,354 --> 00:04:23,055 are working on. And 111 00:04:23,889 --> 00:04:25,829 that's true from both standpoints. 112 00:04:26,370 --> 00:04:28,470 You know, quickly on the history, 113 00:04:28,850 --> 00:04:29,829 you know, students 114 00:04:30,209 --> 00:04:33,009 learn all these technologies and protocols. And if 115 00:04:33,009 --> 00:04:36,064 you're kinda old like mostly me, since I'm 116 00:04:36,064 --> 00:04:37,425 the oldest out of the three of us 117 00:04:37,425 --> 00:04:37,925 here, 118 00:04:38,225 --> 00:04:41,524 you know, I I graduated college in '79. 119 00:04:41,745 --> 00:04:44,225 I got my undergrad, and none of this 120 00:04:44,225 --> 00:04:44,725 existed. 121 00:04:45,104 --> 00:04:47,665 I mean, there's a few things happening, but 122 00:04:47,665 --> 00:04:49,204 none of it was taught at school. 123 00:04:50,759 --> 00:04:51,500 But anyway, 124 00:04:52,039 --> 00:04:52,539 understanding 125 00:04:52,919 --> 00:04:54,919 where we are today and the protocols and 126 00:04:54,919 --> 00:04:56,439 things we use today, it was all an 127 00:04:56,439 --> 00:04:56,939 evolution. 128 00:04:57,479 --> 00:05:00,279 It was all Denish Dutt actually talks about 129 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,620 this in his Cloud Native Data Center Networking 130 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:03,180 book 131 00:05:03,754 --> 00:05:05,835 about, you know, it's it's a problem followed 132 00:05:05,835 --> 00:05:08,314 by a solution, then another problem followed by 133 00:05:08,314 --> 00:05:08,895 a solution. 134 00:05:11,035 --> 00:05:13,375 But not just the history, but the the 135 00:05:13,435 --> 00:05:13,935 understanding, 136 00:05:14,235 --> 00:05:16,735 the theory of all this. I mean, anybody 137 00:05:16,795 --> 00:05:18,895 can you know, it doesn't take much to 138 00:05:18,930 --> 00:05:20,470 to type in a few BGP 139 00:05:20,970 --> 00:05:21,470 commands. 140 00:05:21,970 --> 00:05:24,149 Also, it doesn't take much to black hole, 141 00:05:25,009 --> 00:05:25,669 you know, 142 00:05:26,209 --> 00:05:28,689 you know, Google or YouTube or somebody like 143 00:05:28,689 --> 00:05:29,430 that either. 144 00:05:30,050 --> 00:05:30,550 So, 145 00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:33,835 but, yeah, what I've been It's worse, by 146 00:05:33,835 --> 00:05:34,955 the way, if you do it that in 147 00:05:34,955 --> 00:05:36,654 your China. Just saying. 148 00:05:37,514 --> 00:05:38,014 Okay. 149 00:05:40,235 --> 00:05:42,955 Which is exactly what happened when YouTube was 150 00:05:42,955 --> 00:05:45,610 completely black holed for several days. It was 151 00:05:45,610 --> 00:05:46,829 a Chinese ISP 152 00:05:47,769 --> 00:05:48,669 that disaggregated 153 00:05:49,850 --> 00:05:52,490 YouTube's address space in order to do something, 154 00:05:52,490 --> 00:05:53,529 but it was a phone I don't know 155 00:05:53,529 --> 00:05:55,129 exactly what they were doing, but it was 156 00:05:55,129 --> 00:05:57,129 a fumble finger, and they ended up in 157 00:05:57,129 --> 00:05:59,585 YouTube's address space, and they disaggregated 158 00:05:59,964 --> 00:06:00,944 you advertising 159 00:06:01,485 --> 00:06:04,285 longer prefix matches for the entire YouTube address 160 00:06:04,285 --> 00:06:04,785 space 161 00:06:05,085 --> 00:06:05,985 and basically 162 00:06:06,605 --> 00:06:09,645 took YouTube down. Like I remember Pakistan ISP 163 00:06:09,645 --> 00:06:12,045 doing that back in 1990. It's Pakistan. Yeah. 164 00:06:12,045 --> 00:06:13,985 It's something like that. Yeah. I remember Pakistan. 165 00:06:14,259 --> 00:06:16,360 Yeah. It's like, unless you're a Pakistani 166 00:06:17,540 --> 00:06:19,379 ISP, then, you know, then you can blow 167 00:06:19,379 --> 00:06:22,199 up the entire world, not just your network. 168 00:06:22,420 --> 00:06:24,899 There's a difference between what somebody does that's 169 00:06:24,899 --> 00:06:26,144 important in teaching. 170 00:06:27,104 --> 00:06:29,925 That I I screw up. Nobody nobody remembers. 171 00:06:30,144 --> 00:06:32,064 You know? I'm not gonna make I'm not 172 00:06:32,064 --> 00:06:33,044 gonna make the news. 173 00:06:33,584 --> 00:06:34,064 But, 174 00:06:34,704 --> 00:06:37,365 yeah. I'm just it's it's the the the 175 00:06:37,745 --> 00:06:38,485 like you 176 00:06:39,264 --> 00:06:41,264 like you've said for many years, you know, 177 00:06:41,264 --> 00:06:41,764 just 178 00:06:42,439 --> 00:06:42,939 understanding 179 00:06:43,319 --> 00:06:45,560 what this is working on. And I've got 180 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,000 to say, a lot of students are, I'm 181 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:48,540 getting a lot of great feedback 182 00:06:48,919 --> 00:06:51,100 from both the students and the recruiters. 183 00:06:52,759 --> 00:06:54,439 Talked to a couple of the last couple 184 00:06:54,439 --> 00:06:57,035 of weeks that is talking about they talk 185 00:06:57,035 --> 00:06:59,035 about, you know, they want they want to 186 00:06:59,035 --> 00:07:01,915 see do the do the students really understand? 187 00:07:01,915 --> 00:07:03,754 Not that they have to memorize. And if 188 00:07:03,754 --> 00:07:05,375 they don't know, don't BS. 189 00:07:07,699 --> 00:07:10,120 They had an exposure of familiarity 190 00:07:11,139 --> 00:07:11,639 with 191 00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:12,920 how things 192 00:07:13,540 --> 00:07:14,759 actually work. 193 00:07:15,860 --> 00:07:16,360 And, 194 00:07:16,980 --> 00:07:19,379 and if they can't remember, they can figure 195 00:07:19,379 --> 00:07:20,040 it out. 196 00:07:20,595 --> 00:07:23,235 And and I think that's so important, especially 197 00:07:23,235 --> 00:07:24,935 what we're doing today. 198 00:07:25,555 --> 00:07:27,475 So are the I'm curious. Are the students 199 00:07:27,555 --> 00:07:29,254 and maybe don't know, but are the students 200 00:07:29,475 --> 00:07:32,115 enjoying this type of interaction or or would 201 00:07:32,115 --> 00:07:34,535 they rather answer different types of questions or? 202 00:07:35,899 --> 00:07:37,819 You know, as far as, you know, as 203 00:07:37,819 --> 00:07:38,879 far as, like, 204 00:07:39,339 --> 00:07:41,819 understanding the concepts and that, I think what 205 00:07:41,819 --> 00:07:43,360 it does is it builds confidence. 206 00:07:43,819 --> 00:07:45,740 You know, when you start doing, like, a 207 00:07:45,740 --> 00:07:46,639 packet walk, 208 00:07:47,495 --> 00:07:49,814 then you actually say, oh, okay. You kind 209 00:07:49,814 --> 00:07:50,314 of 210 00:07:51,254 --> 00:07:52,555 pull back the curtains 211 00:07:52,935 --> 00:07:55,274 and you say, oh, okay. It's not magic. 212 00:07:55,735 --> 00:07:56,875 It's not hard. 213 00:07:57,254 --> 00:07:57,914 It is 214 00:07:58,375 --> 00:07:59,675 tedious at times 215 00:08:00,029 --> 00:08:00,529 and, 216 00:08:00,910 --> 00:08:03,730 detailed. And not that I'm gonna remember everything, 217 00:08:04,910 --> 00:08:05,410 but, 218 00:08:06,589 --> 00:08:09,069 you know, this isn't hard. It's just, you 219 00:08:09,069 --> 00:08:11,730 know, what comes next and why. 220 00:08:13,095 --> 00:08:15,095 You know, I one of the things I 221 00:08:15,095 --> 00:08:16,375 like to talk about in one of my 222 00:08:16,375 --> 00:08:19,754 classes with PacketBox is just something very simple. 223 00:08:20,295 --> 00:08:23,115 Like, you're sending you have two devices, 224 00:08:24,295 --> 00:08:24,795 on, 225 00:08:26,379 --> 00:08:28,480 connected to, you know, a network. 226 00:08:28,860 --> 00:08:30,860 And then there's a layer three switch in 227 00:08:30,860 --> 00:08:31,360 between. 228 00:08:32,139 --> 00:08:34,220 And it's and is that and if the 229 00:08:34,220 --> 00:08:36,220 two devices are in the same VLAN, the 230 00:08:36,220 --> 00:08:38,460 same IP network, how does that layer three 231 00:08:38,460 --> 00:08:40,735 switch? It works as layer two with the 232 00:08:40,735 --> 00:08:42,815 MAC address table. But if it has to 233 00:08:42,815 --> 00:08:45,054 get routed between the two devices, it's gotta 234 00:08:45,054 --> 00:08:47,134 go through the layer three switch acting as 235 00:08:47,134 --> 00:08:47,715 a router. 236 00:08:48,175 --> 00:08:50,975 How does that actually happen? What's actually taking 237 00:08:50,975 --> 00:08:51,475 place 238 00:08:52,335 --> 00:08:54,195 each point along the way? 239 00:08:54,769 --> 00:08:56,529 You know, it's easy to to kind of 240 00:08:56,529 --> 00:08:57,429 configure it 241 00:08:57,809 --> 00:09:01,409 and see generally what's happening, but what is 242 00:09:01,409 --> 00:09:03,649 it from the perspective of the frames and 243 00:09:03,649 --> 00:09:04,309 the packets 244 00:09:04,929 --> 00:09:07,649 and the layer three switch slash router that's 245 00:09:07,649 --> 00:09:08,710 happening? So 246 00:09:09,424 --> 00:09:10,944 I I just know, like, when I pull 247 00:09:10,944 --> 00:09:12,564 that stuff back from the students, 248 00:09:12,944 --> 00:09:14,004 they go, oh, 249 00:09:14,464 --> 00:09:16,064 okay. You're not as smart as we thought 250 00:09:16,064 --> 00:09:18,245 you were, Rick. This isn't that bad. 251 00:09:21,105 --> 00:09:22,485 And part of it too 252 00:09:23,610 --> 00:09:25,870 is just sniffing out garbage, 253 00:09:27,289 --> 00:09:29,149 just building your sense 254 00:09:29,610 --> 00:09:32,429 of what is plausible and what is not. 255 00:09:34,009 --> 00:09:34,830 As an example, 256 00:09:35,210 --> 00:09:36,990 this last week, I saw multiple 257 00:09:37,334 --> 00:09:40,294 email messages on various mailing lists, and I 258 00:09:40,294 --> 00:09:42,634 saw it on LinkedIn and various other places. 259 00:09:43,334 --> 00:09:47,334 Dijkstra's been beaten. There's a better algorithm than 260 00:09:47,334 --> 00:09:49,434 Dijkstra for shortest path first, 261 00:09:49,850 --> 00:09:52,029 and everybody's point to this research paper. 262 00:09:52,970 --> 00:09:53,470 Okay. 263 00:09:54,090 --> 00:09:54,750 I'll bite. 264 00:09:55,450 --> 00:09:56,429 Reality is 265 00:09:56,730 --> 00:10:00,570 Dijkstra is pretty pretty efficient. Okay? It was 266 00:10:00,570 --> 00:10:02,269 written for a six bit machine. 267 00:10:03,304 --> 00:10:04,524 It's pretty efficient. 268 00:10:05,225 --> 00:10:06,845 So what's gonna be Dijkstra? 269 00:10:07,625 --> 00:10:10,284 So you go look and the paper explicitly 270 00:10:10,345 --> 00:10:10,845 says 271 00:10:11,384 --> 00:10:12,845 it's faster than Dijkstra 272 00:10:13,304 --> 00:10:14,764 for an ordered 273 00:10:15,304 --> 00:10:15,804 trees. 274 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:18,700 Okay. 275 00:10:20,279 --> 00:10:22,700 The fine print. The fine print. 276 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:27,179 Sorry. 277 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,274 But shortest path first is not an on 278 00:10:31,394 --> 00:10:33,095 unordered tree algorithm 279 00:10:33,715 --> 00:10:34,615 or heuristic. 280 00:10:35,554 --> 00:10:38,115 It must have the metrics must be in 281 00:10:38,115 --> 00:10:41,095 there, and you must have an ordered tree. 282 00:10:41,554 --> 00:10:43,235 Just has the way has to work that 283 00:10:43,235 --> 00:10:43,735 way. 284 00:10:44,259 --> 00:10:46,440 So, no, Dijkstra has not been beaten. 285 00:10:47,620 --> 00:10:49,480 So whatever with your hype. 286 00:10:52,339 --> 00:10:54,019 Well, I'm glad you looked into it because 287 00:10:54,019 --> 00:10:55,159 I saw it everywhere. 288 00:10:55,620 --> 00:10:57,375 And I'm like, and then I saw it 289 00:10:57,434 --> 00:10:59,194 in so many places. The more I saw 290 00:10:59,194 --> 00:11:01,615 it, the more I didn't trust it. Yeah. 291 00:11:01,834 --> 00:11:02,334 Exactly. 292 00:11:02,875 --> 00:11:05,214 But It just we're we're just reposting. 293 00:11:05,995 --> 00:11:08,634 Yeah. Yeah. But why? Why don't you trust 294 00:11:08,634 --> 00:11:11,090 it? Because you've worked with Dijkstra for a 295 00:11:11,090 --> 00:11:13,649 long time, and you know how efficient it 296 00:11:13,649 --> 00:11:15,889 is. And you know how many times people 297 00:11:15,889 --> 00:11:17,889 have tried to beat Dijkstra in terms of 298 00:11:17,889 --> 00:11:20,529 speed. And you know how optimized. It's not 299 00:11:20,529 --> 00:11:21,029 just 300 00:11:21,424 --> 00:11:23,764 the algorithm or the heuristics pure. 301 00:11:24,304 --> 00:11:25,524 It's how much 302 00:11:26,065 --> 00:11:28,144 if you go look at modern Dijkstra code, 303 00:11:28,144 --> 00:11:30,324 modern short pass first first code, 304 00:11:30,945 --> 00:11:32,164 there's nothing there. 305 00:11:33,024 --> 00:11:34,324 It's been so optimized 306 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:37,659 that there's nothing there. It's like 307 00:11:38,279 --> 00:11:41,000 the list are sorted on, on, in, on, 308 00:11:41,799 --> 00:11:44,759 insertion rather than during the actual shortest path 309 00:11:44,759 --> 00:11:45,820 first. So 310 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:46,440 the, 311 00:11:47,345 --> 00:11:48,945 so when you run shortest path first, what 312 00:11:48,945 --> 00:11:51,424 you actually do in most implementations now is 313 00:11:51,424 --> 00:11:53,024 just pull the list off the off the 314 00:11:53,024 --> 00:11:53,524 array 315 00:11:54,545 --> 00:11:56,384 because everything's sorted when you put it on 316 00:11:56,384 --> 00:11:57,045 the list. 317 00:11:57,904 --> 00:12:00,465 Like, there's so many efficiencies that they've put 318 00:12:00,465 --> 00:12:02,144 into this that people have thought of over 319 00:12:02,144 --> 00:12:02,804 the years. 320 00:12:03,659 --> 00:12:04,879 It just seems impossible. 321 00:12:05,419 --> 00:12:05,919 Like 322 00:12:06,940 --> 00:12:08,779 so that's why I'm suspicious. That's why I 323 00:12:08,779 --> 00:12:11,039 go dig the paper up. I'm like, what? 324 00:12:15,985 --> 00:12:18,004 Listen. I just learned how to finally spell 325 00:12:18,384 --> 00:12:21,105 his name. So Oh, it's in alphabetical order. 326 00:12:21,105 --> 00:12:23,585 Yeah. There you go. Oh my goodness. Now 327 00:12:23,585 --> 00:12:26,065 now we got you're right. Isn't that d 328 00:12:26,065 --> 00:12:27,044 I k j. 329 00:12:27,745 --> 00:12:29,660 Yeah. But there's an a at the end. 330 00:12:29,660 --> 00:12:31,340 Right. But the r and the a are 331 00:12:31,340 --> 00:12:32,940 not. Right. The r and the t are 332 00:12:32,940 --> 00:12:35,019 reversed and the a, so it's T r 333 00:12:35,019 --> 00:12:36,620 a, but it's I j k 334 00:12:37,419 --> 00:12:39,679 Oh my god. That's so s tra. 335 00:12:43,434 --> 00:12:45,514 So other thing I love about this stuff, 336 00:12:45,514 --> 00:12:48,235 that it's people. You know, I I when 337 00:12:48,235 --> 00:12:50,634 I talk you know, I think students when 338 00:12:50,634 --> 00:12:54,095 they take other, you know, biology, chemistry, physics, 339 00:12:54,955 --> 00:12:57,375 you know, everything kind of has, like, a 340 00:12:57,595 --> 00:12:58,495 sense of 341 00:12:59,470 --> 00:13:02,029 order to it that there's one way of 342 00:13:02,029 --> 00:13:04,830 doing things and, you know, that's but with 343 00:13:04,830 --> 00:13:07,470 networking, it was these technologies were invented by 344 00:13:07,470 --> 00:13:09,009 people like Dijkstra. 345 00:13:09,950 --> 00:13:10,990 Yeah. And, 346 00:13:11,389 --> 00:13:11,889 there's, 347 00:13:12,670 --> 00:13:13,490 you know, there's 348 00:13:13,875 --> 00:13:15,894 there's, as you know, a lot of competing, 349 00:13:18,434 --> 00:13:21,154 protocols and technologies even today, but it's, you 350 00:13:21,154 --> 00:13:23,154 know, there's it's not a this is the 351 00:13:23,154 --> 00:13:24,115 only way. It's 352 00:13:24,914 --> 00:13:27,394 And VHS always wins. I'm sorry. I know 353 00:13:27,394 --> 00:13:29,654 the end of the story, VHS always wins. 354 00:13:33,340 --> 00:13:35,440 Oh, no. Are we gonna talk about Ethernet 355 00:13:35,580 --> 00:13:36,879 versus whatever now? 356 00:13:37,980 --> 00:13:40,559 Oh, actually, Ethernet was about the best. 357 00:13:41,179 --> 00:13:43,980 Honestly, I worked on token ring and token 358 00:13:43,980 --> 00:13:44,720 bus and, 359 00:13:46,404 --> 00:13:48,664 what was the other one? Tommy Conrad 360 00:13:49,365 --> 00:13:51,684 did their thing, and I worked on all 361 00:13:51,684 --> 00:13:53,445 of them. And honestly, even it was about 362 00:13:53,445 --> 00:13:54,105 the best. 363 00:13:55,044 --> 00:13:57,845 So I'm not too unhappy that either that 364 00:13:57,845 --> 00:14:00,269 one. Now. You know, now we're doing rocky, 365 00:14:00,329 --> 00:14:01,709 which just means basically 366 00:14:02,009 --> 00:14:03,230 we're trying to develop 367 00:14:04,169 --> 00:14:05,470 circuit based Ethernet, 368 00:14:05,850 --> 00:14:06,350 like, 369 00:14:07,610 --> 00:14:09,389 Ethernet one because it was stochastic. 370 00:14:09,929 --> 00:14:12,029 Now we're doing circuit based Ethernet. 371 00:14:12,804 --> 00:14:13,845 Yeah. Okay. That's 372 00:14:15,125 --> 00:14:17,445 I remember I had a college professor that 373 00:14:17,445 --> 00:14:19,045 said it was very memorable to me. He 374 00:14:19,045 --> 00:14:21,445 said, Ethernet is just a frame format now. 375 00:14:21,445 --> 00:14:23,304 That's all it is. That's all it is. 376 00:14:23,524 --> 00:14:25,319 Oh, okay. Oh, 377 00:14:25,940 --> 00:14:26,440 CSMACD? 378 00:14:27,860 --> 00:14:30,899 Is there any network currently existing on the 379 00:14:30,899 --> 00:14:33,159 face of the Earth that actually still uses 380 00:14:34,179 --> 00:14:34,679 CSMACD? 381 00:14:36,100 --> 00:14:38,839 You haven't been in, an academic setting. 382 00:14:41,804 --> 00:14:42,044 Libraries or 383 00:14:44,684 --> 00:14:46,625 but yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah. We 384 00:14:47,165 --> 00:14:49,264 we got we used to get donated hubs. 385 00:14:49,565 --> 00:14:51,884 Like, everybody was donating hubs for a while 386 00:14:51,884 --> 00:14:53,745 to schools because, you know, 387 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:56,279 we're we're that that's their idea of helping 388 00:14:56,279 --> 00:14:56,779 schools. 389 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:00,679 I mean, the only reason I mentioned c 390 00:15:00,919 --> 00:15:02,940 CMSA CD is because of, 391 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:04,779 Wi Fi and CMSA 392 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,220 CA. Yes. Which is very similar. Yeah. Yeah. 393 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:08,759 It's it's 394 00:15:10,144 --> 00:15:12,625 It's not not a not really a thing. 395 00:15:12,625 --> 00:15:15,365 Yeah. So you have you have recruiters 396 00:15:15,904 --> 00:15:17,365 who are actually saying 397 00:15:17,825 --> 00:15:20,465 we prefer people with theory. So I find 398 00:15:20,465 --> 00:15:22,544 that astounding. With theory. I I just find 399 00:15:22,544 --> 00:15:24,544 that astounding. Are you sure you're actually talking 400 00:15:24,544 --> 00:15:25,205 to recruiters 401 00:15:25,750 --> 00:15:28,710 and not, like, people who are pretending to 402 00:15:28,710 --> 00:15:29,450 be recruiters? 403 00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:32,330 I'm sorry. Russ Russ is dubious. 404 00:15:35,750 --> 00:15:38,790 Yeah. It's, these are actually people that are 405 00:15:38,790 --> 00:15:39,290 hiring. 406 00:15:39,714 --> 00:15:40,214 And, 407 00:15:40,914 --> 00:15:42,835 you know, I I think what they're they're 408 00:15:42,835 --> 00:15:43,735 trying to 409 00:15:44,914 --> 00:15:47,975 what that tells them is that if somebody 410 00:15:48,034 --> 00:15:49,414 understands the theory, 411 00:15:49,875 --> 00:15:50,615 the concepts, 412 00:15:52,274 --> 00:15:53,975 that they that they can learn. 413 00:15:54,290 --> 00:15:56,529 That they have the ability to understand and 414 00:15:56,529 --> 00:15:57,029 comprehend, 415 00:15:58,929 --> 00:15:59,910 these these 416 00:16:00,450 --> 00:16:03,190 diff sometimes complex and difficult topics, 417 00:16:04,210 --> 00:16:05,269 more than just, 418 00:16:05,970 --> 00:16:08,504 you know, it drives me kinda nuts about 419 00:16:08,504 --> 00:16:09,644 the world of cybersecurity 420 00:16:10,105 --> 00:16:13,004 and everybody wants to go into cybersecurity after 421 00:16:13,144 --> 00:16:15,384 take one or two courses and learn all 422 00:16:15,384 --> 00:16:17,325 these tools. And all of a sudden, 423 00:16:17,705 --> 00:16:19,804 they can be they can they, you know, 424 00:16:20,819 --> 00:16:22,899 think that they can be, you know, get 425 00:16:22,899 --> 00:16:25,299 a job in cybersecurity where they don't really 426 00:16:25,299 --> 00:16:26,839 understand any of the underlying 427 00:16:27,699 --> 00:16:29,240 factors involved in this. 428 00:16:29,699 --> 00:16:30,100 So, 429 00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:32,980 I think employers are seeing for the long 430 00:16:32,980 --> 00:16:35,299 run, if they wanna hire they wanna hire 431 00:16:35,299 --> 00:16:35,799 somebody 432 00:16:36,445 --> 00:16:37,584 that is gonna be, 433 00:16:39,084 --> 00:16:42,125 a long term asset to their company that 434 00:16:42,125 --> 00:16:42,784 they can, 435 00:16:43,485 --> 00:16:44,144 you know, 436 00:16:44,684 --> 00:16:46,684 that they can train, that they can learn, 437 00:16:46,684 --> 00:16:47,825 and they can grasp 438 00:16:49,149 --> 00:16:50,870 what they're doing today and what they're doing 439 00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:53,710 in the future. They'll understand the basic foundations 440 00:16:53,710 --> 00:16:55,309 and concepts. Gotta be able to have that 441 00:16:55,309 --> 00:16:57,490 ability to do it. That's that 442 00:16:57,790 --> 00:17:00,350 go ahead. That I'm also a little stand 443 00:17:00,509 --> 00:17:02,529 astounded and somewhat skeptical 444 00:17:03,309 --> 00:17:03,809 because 445 00:17:04,365 --> 00:17:06,845 because every time I don't know. I like, 446 00:17:06,845 --> 00:17:09,005 who has the time, first of all, to 447 00:17:09,005 --> 00:17:11,825 screen for knowledge? It's harder. Like, it's it's 448 00:17:11,884 --> 00:17:13,585 it's more it's more time intensive, 449 00:17:14,924 --> 00:17:17,005 to see if someone has what it takes 450 00:17:17,005 --> 00:17:18,684 if if they understand things at a theory 451 00:17:18,684 --> 00:17:20,279 level. It's a lot easier to be like, 452 00:17:20,279 --> 00:17:22,839 hey, what, what models of switches have you 453 00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:24,359 worked on? Like, I've seen that in job 454 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:26,839 requirements before. It just makes me wanna yak. 455 00:17:26,839 --> 00:17:29,000 Like, what what does it matter with the 456 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,519 silk screen on the front of the stupid 457 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:32,380 switches? Why is this in a job description? 458 00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:34,904 Like, and but but then it's pretty easy, 459 00:17:34,904 --> 00:17:36,424 like, okay. Show me how to configure this, 460 00:17:36,424 --> 00:17:37,785 that, and the other. And you can set 461 00:17:37,785 --> 00:17:39,384 them down at a at a keyboard and, 462 00:17:39,384 --> 00:17:40,984 you know, watch them type to to to 463 00:17:41,065 --> 00:17:43,464 and, oh, okay. Well, they know. And, like, 464 00:17:43,464 --> 00:17:44,444 that's so easy. 465 00:17:45,384 --> 00:17:47,440 Yeah. It's just I I think it's cool. 466 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:48,639 I'd like to interview at one of these 467 00:17:48,639 --> 00:17:49,539 places, actually. 468 00:17:49,839 --> 00:17:52,659 Oh, one there's one company lately 469 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:53,519 that, 470 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,940 has hired a couple of my previous students, 471 00:17:58,079 --> 00:18:00,000 and one of the things they really liked, 472 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:00,659 the students 473 00:18:01,234 --> 00:18:02,134 in their interview, 474 00:18:03,474 --> 00:18:04,275 had a, 475 00:18:04,674 --> 00:18:07,315 structured design topology that we're working on. Now 476 00:18:07,315 --> 00:18:09,494 we they we use Packet Tracer, but it's 477 00:18:09,555 --> 00:18:10,375 it's basically 478 00:18:10,755 --> 00:18:12,914 use you know, they're adding in one of 479 00:18:12,914 --> 00:18:15,255 my classes where we do everything from VLANs 480 00:18:15,315 --> 00:18:15,974 to OSPF 481 00:18:16,674 --> 00:18:17,099 and, 482 00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:18,640 you know, FHRP 483 00:18:19,099 --> 00:18:22,079 and LAN security and and everything else, 484 00:18:23,019 --> 00:18:23,519 EtherChannel. 485 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:25,900 They they like to they they saw how 486 00:18:25,900 --> 00:18:26,960 the students were 487 00:18:27,339 --> 00:18:29,980 taking this brownfield network and adding to it 488 00:18:29,980 --> 00:18:31,444 and then adding all these technologies 489 00:18:32,304 --> 00:18:35,025 and understanding how they were all coming together. 490 00:18:35,025 --> 00:18:37,184 And the students the students started this. They 491 00:18:37,184 --> 00:18:39,265 they brought this to their interviewer, the two 492 00:18:39,265 --> 00:18:39,924 in particular. 493 00:18:40,784 --> 00:18:43,025 And the company was just kind of like, 494 00:18:43,025 --> 00:18:44,884 wow. I can see that 495 00:18:45,849 --> 00:18:48,429 you're doing it, but you also, you know, 496 00:18:48,490 --> 00:18:50,269 they were they could talk about it. 497 00:18:51,049 --> 00:18:52,809 So so what do you mean you said 498 00:18:52,809 --> 00:18:54,490 the students brought this to the interviewer. Did 499 00:18:54,490 --> 00:18:56,089 they were they just describing, like, here's what 500 00:18:56,089 --> 00:18:57,529 we did in class or what yeah. Tell 501 00:18:57,529 --> 00:18:59,769 me more about that. They, I I believe 502 00:18:59,769 --> 00:19:02,375 they brought one brought their packet of labs 503 00:19:02,994 --> 00:19:04,914 that that they were working on just to 504 00:19:04,914 --> 00:19:05,875 show. And 505 00:19:06,275 --> 00:19:07,955 Cool. You know, the the actually, the crew 506 00:19:07,955 --> 00:19:10,195 ended up, you know, reaching out to me 507 00:19:10,195 --> 00:19:12,195 and some others where at this is at 508 00:19:12,195 --> 00:19:13,335 UC Santa Cruz. 509 00:19:14,035 --> 00:19:14,535 And, 510 00:19:15,234 --> 00:19:15,734 and 511 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,279 and they ended up talking about, you know, 512 00:19:20,279 --> 00:19:21,880 I actually just had last week had them 513 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:23,019 talking to my class. 514 00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:23,960 But, 515 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,220 they were just very impressed that the students 516 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,619 are not just being able not 517 00:19:30,964 --> 00:19:33,704 just understanding all these different technologies and protocols, 518 00:19:34,005 --> 00:19:36,025 but, you know, putting them all together, 519 00:19:37,365 --> 00:19:38,505 and understanding 520 00:19:39,045 --> 00:19:39,785 the intricacies 521 00:19:40,565 --> 00:19:42,424 and these complex relationships 522 00:19:43,285 --> 00:19:45,785 that happen. You know, they're not experts 523 00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:47,700 And and and the students, you know, they 524 00:19:47,779 --> 00:19:49,640 but they're beginning to see 525 00:19:50,019 --> 00:19:52,279 how complicated all this stuff is 526 00:19:52,820 --> 00:19:55,859 where you start adding different things and it 527 00:19:55,859 --> 00:19:57,720 just kind of it changes 528 00:19:58,580 --> 00:19:59,080 the, 529 00:20:00,454 --> 00:20:02,934 the dynamics of the entire network, what you're 530 00:20:02,934 --> 00:20:03,434 doing. 531 00:20:03,974 --> 00:20:05,015 So they were very, 532 00:20:06,295 --> 00:20:07,734 very impressed by the 533 00:20:08,134 --> 00:20:09,815 that they were working on something like that 534 00:20:09,815 --> 00:20:11,414 they had been working on something like this, 535 00:20:11,414 --> 00:20:12,795 and they understood it. 536 00:20:13,174 --> 00:20:14,555 That's really cool, actually. 537 00:20:14,934 --> 00:20:15,434 Yeah. 538 00:20:15,859 --> 00:20:17,619 So so this is probably one of the 539 00:20:17,619 --> 00:20:19,559 things I always tell people is that 540 00:20:20,580 --> 00:20:22,420 if you're building trying to build your career 541 00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:24,279 in network engineering is to have 542 00:20:24,660 --> 00:20:27,320 a public record of what you've worked on 543 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:28,680 and it honestly 544 00:20:29,539 --> 00:20:32,204 or what you've spent time with, it honestly 545 00:20:32,204 --> 00:20:35,505 doesn't even matter if anyone else reads it. 546 00:20:36,204 --> 00:20:38,204 Because a recruiter is never gonna know that 547 00:20:38,204 --> 00:20:39,904 only five people read your blog. 548 00:20:41,164 --> 00:20:43,325 For them from their perspective, they're not gonna 549 00:20:43,325 --> 00:20:45,559 be able to tell. Unless, I mean, there's 550 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:48,359 possibly ways of telling, doing Google Analytics or 551 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:49,580 whatever, but who cares? 552 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,039 What really matters is that you have a 553 00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:52,539 blog, 554 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,039 Tom. Anyway, what really matters is that you 555 00:20:56,039 --> 00:20:56,859 have a blog 556 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,274 and that you're showing curiosity, 557 00:21:01,054 --> 00:21:01,954 and you're showing 558 00:21:02,494 --> 00:21:04,095 I've gone out and done this, and I've 559 00:21:04,095 --> 00:21:05,634 done that, and everything else. 560 00:21:05,934 --> 00:21:08,414 And yet I know that I've I've had 561 00:21:08,414 --> 00:21:10,335 this discussion for a while too now going 562 00:21:10,335 --> 00:21:10,829 on, 563 00:21:11,149 --> 00:21:13,630 that one thing I really dislike about the 564 00:21:13,630 --> 00:21:15,490 IT world is that 565 00:21:15,869 --> 00:21:17,630 when a company says there are two things 566 00:21:17,630 --> 00:21:18,990 that a company can say to me that 567 00:21:18,990 --> 00:21:20,990 just drive me nuts. The first is your 568 00:21:20,990 --> 00:21:21,490 family. 569 00:21:22,829 --> 00:21:23,865 No, I'm not. 570 00:21:24,744 --> 00:21:26,845 You can just stop right there. 571 00:21:27,304 --> 00:21:29,804 Because you are full of stuff and fluff. 572 00:21:29,865 --> 00:21:30,684 I'm sorry. 573 00:21:31,065 --> 00:21:33,304 That is nonsense on stilts. I am not 574 00:21:33,304 --> 00:21:34,045 your family. 575 00:21:34,424 --> 00:21:35,804 You are not my family. 576 00:21:36,190 --> 00:21:38,590 And all you're trying to do is to 577 00:21:38,590 --> 00:21:41,950 displace my relationships with my family, with a 578 00:21:41,950 --> 00:21:44,349 relationship with you. And all you're trying to 579 00:21:44,349 --> 00:21:46,830 do is make you your company more important 580 00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:47,410 to me 581 00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:50,450 than my family is. But when you're tired, 582 00:21:50,765 --> 00:21:52,144 or you don't have the money, 583 00:21:52,765 --> 00:21:54,924 you're gonna dump me faster than a than 584 00:21:54,924 --> 00:21:56,465 a box of old donuts. 585 00:21:57,164 --> 00:21:58,845 So don't so don't play that game. Because 586 00:21:58,845 --> 00:22:01,485 that's that's total nonsense with me. The other 587 00:22:01,485 --> 00:22:03,345 one that always drives me nuts is, 588 00:22:03,805 --> 00:22:04,305 oh, 589 00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:06,789 we want you to be really smart, but 590 00:22:06,789 --> 00:22:08,630 we don't wanna spend any time or money 591 00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:09,609 training you. 592 00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:12,409 Stop. 593 00:22:16,309 --> 00:22:17,289 I don't know. 594 00:22:17,865 --> 00:22:20,045 Just stop already. Like, 595 00:22:21,305 --> 00:22:21,805 I 596 00:22:22,424 --> 00:22:22,924 anyway. 597 00:22:25,065 --> 00:22:26,825 Do your I'm I'm curious, Rick. Do your 598 00:22:26,825 --> 00:22:28,744 students come back from these, 599 00:22:29,144 --> 00:22:29,644 experiences, 600 00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:33,210 talking about training as a as an incentive 601 00:22:33,210 --> 00:22:35,609 or as a a fringe benefit or anything 602 00:22:35,609 --> 00:22:37,450 or the companies they're interviewing saying, yeah, we'll 603 00:22:37,450 --> 00:22:39,710 we'll help you learn, continue your education? 604 00:22:40,169 --> 00:22:42,970 They're mostly looking for, companies that think of 605 00:22:42,970 --> 00:22:44,944 them as family. No one can. 606 00:22:50,605 --> 00:22:51,744 Yeah. You know, 607 00:22:54,845 --> 00:22:55,984 it's, training is 608 00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:58,250 is important to them. 609 00:22:58,950 --> 00:23:00,650 I think it's also just, 610 00:23:01,269 --> 00:23:03,029 you know, that at first, that first job 611 00:23:03,029 --> 00:23:05,190 out of the gate, they're just they're more 612 00:23:05,190 --> 00:23:06,970 worried about what am I you know, 613 00:23:07,430 --> 00:23:09,210 they're they feel a little intimidated, 614 00:23:09,830 --> 00:23:10,490 a little 615 00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:12,345 Right. You know, they're 616 00:23:13,365 --> 00:23:15,365 not do not have any confidence, like, how 617 00:23:15,365 --> 00:23:17,784 is this what this company wants me? 618 00:23:18,644 --> 00:23:20,565 You know, I've been speaking for over thirty 619 00:23:20,565 --> 00:23:22,184 years and I still feel that way. 620 00:23:24,019 --> 00:23:25,460 But, you know, I mean, a few weeks 621 00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:27,779 ago, I was talking to another company that 622 00:23:27,779 --> 00:23:30,339 was had hired a couple of students. And, 623 00:23:31,059 --> 00:23:32,740 one of the things that they said was 624 00:23:32,740 --> 00:23:34,740 that they what they really liked about the 625 00:23:34,740 --> 00:23:37,799 students was not that they that that everything 626 00:23:37,859 --> 00:23:40,085 that they were had learned or even, you 627 00:23:40,085 --> 00:23:42,565 know, and again, they had used this kind 628 00:23:42,565 --> 00:23:44,424 of this structured design, 629 00:23:46,404 --> 00:23:48,244 labs that they had been working on. But 630 00:23:48,244 --> 00:23:50,325 not that they would be doing that, but 631 00:23:50,325 --> 00:23:51,544 they had the ability 632 00:23:52,779 --> 00:23:55,920 to that that showed their ability to learn 633 00:23:56,299 --> 00:23:57,039 and that 634 00:23:57,500 --> 00:23:59,339 that they were gonna put them through. And 635 00:23:59,339 --> 00:24:01,099 that and we get back to your your 636 00:24:01,099 --> 00:24:03,519 your question about, you know, some training. 637 00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:05,980 That they were that they can that, you 638 00:24:05,980 --> 00:24:07,500 know, they showed that, you know, like you 639 00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:08,319 said, curiosity, 640 00:24:11,154 --> 00:24:12,375 just that being 641 00:24:12,994 --> 00:24:13,494 interested 642 00:24:14,355 --> 00:24:14,855 in 643 00:24:15,474 --> 00:24:16,454 in this whole 644 00:24:17,714 --> 00:24:18,775 group of technologies, 645 00:24:19,714 --> 00:24:22,349 area, whatever you wanna call it, that students 646 00:24:22,349 --> 00:24:24,990 have really no idea what what's what's out 647 00:24:24,990 --> 00:24:27,410 there. But just they're interested. 648 00:24:28,990 --> 00:24:30,990 So do you discuss with your students the 649 00:24:30,990 --> 00:24:33,250 network engineering life cycle from 650 00:24:33,950 --> 00:24:34,450 excitement 651 00:24:34,875 --> 00:24:37,275 to, I can't believe people actually pay me 652 00:24:37,275 --> 00:24:38,095 to do this 653 00:24:39,115 --> 00:24:39,934 to cynicism. 654 00:24:41,835 --> 00:24:42,974 Leave out the cynicism. 655 00:24:44,394 --> 00:24:45,835 Yeah. I was gonna say, let them find 656 00:24:45,835 --> 00:24:47,855 it on their own. No. You know. But, 657 00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:50,920 you know, you mentioned about the family and 658 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,759 stuff. You know, one thing I do, I 659 00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:54,519 you know, one thing I I tell I 660 00:24:54,519 --> 00:24:56,279 talk to them at the end of every 661 00:24:56,279 --> 00:24:56,779 course, 662 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:00,519 especially the the seniors is I, you know, 663 00:25:00,519 --> 00:25:02,325 I mentioned that. So you you had a 664 00:25:02,325 --> 00:25:03,525 lot of you had a lot of hurt 665 00:25:03,525 --> 00:25:05,684 than I did. You know, the whole idea 666 00:25:05,684 --> 00:25:07,525 that they think on social you see everything 667 00:25:07,525 --> 00:25:09,525 on social media. They think every all their 668 00:25:09,525 --> 00:25:11,845 friends are getting the greatest jobs with these 669 00:25:11,845 --> 00:25:12,664 big companies 670 00:25:13,204 --> 00:25:14,184 living the life. 671 00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:16,920 And, you know, because, you know, well, I 672 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,000 I didn't even know, you know, I had 673 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,359 to go find out if I want to 674 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,440 see what somebody could have. It's really only 675 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:23,960 10 out of the 100 friends who have 676 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,080 a good job. The rest of them are 677 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:26,220 still working as baristas, 678 00:25:26,664 --> 00:25:28,424 but they're only paying attention to the 10 679 00:25:28,424 --> 00:25:31,384 who are posting on LinkedIn. Yeah. Exactly. And, 680 00:25:31,384 --> 00:25:33,065 you know, and the whole thing is, like, 681 00:25:33,065 --> 00:25:34,585 you you know, Russ, I I joined the 682 00:25:34,585 --> 00:25:36,045 Coast Guard after college, 683 00:25:36,424 --> 00:25:37,865 and that was the best thing I ever 684 00:25:37,865 --> 00:25:39,724 did. I mean, they gave me opportunities 685 00:25:40,105 --> 00:25:40,605 that 686 00:25:41,089 --> 00:25:43,890 no no company would have given me at, 687 00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:45,990 you know, when I was 22 years old 688 00:25:46,450 --> 00:25:49,330 and and forged a path for me that 689 00:25:49,330 --> 00:25:51,490 I'm doing today that I had no idea 690 00:25:51,490 --> 00:25:52,470 I would be doing. 691 00:25:52,769 --> 00:25:54,130 So it's a lot of it's, you know, 692 00:25:54,130 --> 00:25:56,444 who you work for and, you know, who's 693 00:25:56,444 --> 00:25:59,025 who's and they provided a lot of training. 694 00:25:59,404 --> 00:26:00,545 Mhmm. And, 695 00:26:01,325 --> 00:26:03,404 the other thing too that Russ you know, 696 00:26:03,404 --> 00:26:05,724 you mentioned family. I also mentioned to them, 697 00:26:05,724 --> 00:26:06,785 I said, you know, 698 00:26:07,660 --> 00:26:08,559 remember that 699 00:26:08,940 --> 00:26:10,859 you gotta take care of yourself and your 700 00:26:10,859 --> 00:26:11,359 family 701 00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:14,299 while you are while you're working. They're a 702 00:26:14,299 --> 00:26:17,019 priority because the company is not gonna care 703 00:26:17,019 --> 00:26:18,640 anything about you when you turn 704 00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:21,900 60, 65, 70 years old. And if you 705 00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:22,880 have health issues, 706 00:26:23,474 --> 00:26:25,634 family issues, or everything like that, that you 707 00:26:25,634 --> 00:26:27,875 gave up because you wanted to work eighty 708 00:26:27,875 --> 00:26:28,855 hours a week. 709 00:26:30,194 --> 00:26:30,595 And, 710 00:26:31,154 --> 00:26:33,474 the company's not gonna care about what happens 711 00:26:33,474 --> 00:26:35,154 to you. When they're when you're done, you're 712 00:26:35,154 --> 00:26:36,615 done they're done with you. 713 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,859 You gotta look out for yourself 714 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:40,220 and your family. 715 00:26:40,679 --> 00:26:41,740 That's the number 716 00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:44,700 number one thing. Keep that in mind. 717 00:26:45,159 --> 00:26:45,659 Yep. 718 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:47,799 Build your career around your family, not your 719 00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:50,474 family around your career. It's just this is 720 00:26:50,474 --> 00:26:52,154 what you've got to do. You have to 721 00:26:52,154 --> 00:26:53,295 do it as an engineer. 722 00:26:54,875 --> 00:26:57,674 And you have to take care of your 723 00:26:57,674 --> 00:26:58,414 own learning. 724 00:26:59,194 --> 00:27:00,734 You have to stay cur curious. 725 00:27:01,595 --> 00:27:03,420 I mean, I joke about cynicism. We all 726 00:27:03,420 --> 00:27:04,859 all get cynical after we've been I've been 727 00:27:04,859 --> 00:27:06,160 doing this for thirty years. 728 00:27:06,539 --> 00:27:08,480 You're like, you get cynical after a while. 729 00:27:09,019 --> 00:27:10,799 But on the other hand, that doesn't 730 00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:13,580 there's a blend of the cynicism with with 731 00:27:13,580 --> 00:27:16,940 continued wonder and and curiosity that you can 732 00:27:16,940 --> 00:27:19,315 still achieve. I know that sounds really odd 733 00:27:19,315 --> 00:27:21,095 to some people, but, like, 734 00:27:21,794 --> 00:27:23,894 I like this whole thing with Dijkstra. 735 00:27:24,355 --> 00:27:25,794 It's like, it's not just that I was 736 00:27:25,794 --> 00:27:27,095 cynical. It's like, Billy. 737 00:27:27,794 --> 00:27:29,875 Okay. I wanna see the algorithm. I wanna 738 00:27:29,875 --> 00:27:32,039 know how this works. I wanna understand this. 739 00:27:32,279 --> 00:27:33,900 This is a new construction 740 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,160 in in graph theory. I really wanna understand 741 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,880 it. I actually get still interested in new 742 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:40,380 topologies. 743 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,279 Dragonfly is interesting to me. And I sit 744 00:27:44,279 --> 00:27:46,065 down with a dragonfly, and I'm like, 745 00:27:47,264 --> 00:27:49,504 so how does that scale? How would that 746 00:27:49,504 --> 00:27:50,004 converge? 747 00:27:50,304 --> 00:27:52,644 And I map out convergence processes 748 00:27:52,944 --> 00:27:55,204 for BGP and and link state protocols. 749 00:27:55,585 --> 00:27:57,264 And even the Edge European, I still do 750 00:27:57,264 --> 00:27:59,024 it mentally with the Edge European for those 751 00:27:59,024 --> 00:28:00,440 who think that's crazy. 752 00:28:00,899 --> 00:28:02,579 But, yeah, I map these things out in 753 00:28:02,579 --> 00:28:04,659 my head because I'm still there's still a 754 00:28:04,659 --> 00:28:05,720 lot of curiosity 755 00:28:06,659 --> 00:28:07,480 and just, 756 00:28:08,740 --> 00:28:10,740 I don't know. So so far it hasn't 757 00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:12,119 killed the cat, I suppose. 758 00:28:13,515 --> 00:28:15,515 But that's what I love about this business 759 00:28:15,515 --> 00:28:17,674 too. I I I also mentioned this to 760 00:28:17,674 --> 00:28:20,075 my students. It's it's like the greatest mystery 761 00:28:20,075 --> 00:28:21,994 novel. It's like a mystery novel that never 762 00:28:21,994 --> 00:28:24,335 ends. And if you like this stuff, 763 00:28:25,355 --> 00:28:26,494 you yearn because 764 00:28:26,795 --> 00:28:28,255 you you're you're 765 00:28:28,990 --> 00:28:31,009 curious. You're sincerely curious 766 00:28:31,869 --> 00:28:34,269 about all of this stuff. I mean, I'm 767 00:28:34,269 --> 00:28:36,589 doing a book right now with somebody at 768 00:28:36,589 --> 00:28:37,470 Cisco on, 769 00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:41,150 it's for beginners. It's Python 770 00:28:41,869 --> 00:28:43,845 using Python for automating 771 00:28:44,144 --> 00:28:46,304 networks. It's for the beginner, for the simple 772 00:28:46,304 --> 00:28:47,684 minded like like me. 773 00:28:48,224 --> 00:28:50,005 And, this didn't exist. 774 00:28:50,625 --> 00:28:52,565 I mean, I started out on, 775 00:28:53,025 --> 00:28:53,684 you know, 776 00:28:54,304 --> 00:28:56,005 Prime seven fifty minuteicomputers, 777 00:28:56,704 --> 00:28:58,970 Ungerman Bass, went to Tandem. 778 00:28:59,589 --> 00:29:01,690 You know, there was none of this. Automating 779 00:29:01,750 --> 00:29:02,250 what? 780 00:29:03,509 --> 00:29:04,009 And, 781 00:29:04,549 --> 00:29:05,049 but 782 00:29:05,670 --> 00:29:07,369 I truly enjoy this. 783 00:29:08,069 --> 00:29:09,049 Truly enjoy 784 00:29:09,429 --> 00:29:12,089 pulling back the curtain, bringing back full circle 785 00:29:12,230 --> 00:29:12,730 is, 786 00:29:13,164 --> 00:29:15,244 you know, I I get excited when I 787 00:29:15,244 --> 00:29:16,945 do, you know, looking at VXLAN 788 00:29:17,884 --> 00:29:20,765 and doing and figuring out, okay, what is 789 00:29:20,765 --> 00:29:21,825 actually happening, 790 00:29:22,765 --> 00:29:26,045 and looking at everything from from point a 791 00:29:26,045 --> 00:29:26,945 to point z. 792 00:29:27,549 --> 00:29:30,529 It's Yeah. It's it's it's fun. It's like 793 00:29:30,829 --> 00:29:33,150 the it's it's like, okay. I figured this 794 00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:33,650 out. 795 00:29:35,390 --> 00:29:37,630 I don't know. You know, you're older than 796 00:29:37,630 --> 00:29:39,570 I am, Rick, but somehow when I started, 797 00:29:39,710 --> 00:29:40,930 we only had basic 798 00:29:41,309 --> 00:29:42,049 and assembler 799 00:29:42,845 --> 00:29:43,904 and Pascal. 800 00:29:44,365 --> 00:29:44,865 Oh, 801 00:29:45,644 --> 00:29:46,144 Pascal. 802 00:29:47,964 --> 00:29:49,265 Yes. Now you're talking 803 00:29:51,244 --> 00:29:53,884 and Fortran. I never learned Fortran. So people 804 00:29:53,884 --> 00:29:55,724 are like, why'd you learn C of all 805 00:29:55,724 --> 00:29:58,080 the languages? I'm like, because my choices were 806 00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:58,580 assembler, 807 00:29:59,359 --> 00:29:59,859 Pascal, 808 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:01,380 and c. 809 00:30:03,359 --> 00:30:05,359 How about because it's the foundation of all, 810 00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:08,640 all networking code? Yeah. It just didn't nothing 811 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:09,460 else existed. 812 00:30:11,984 --> 00:30:13,585 Well, you and if you they 813 00:30:14,144 --> 00:30:16,164 and COBOL wasn't a choice for you. 814 00:30:17,025 --> 00:30:18,865 Who wants to learn COBOL? Even back then, 815 00:30:18,865 --> 00:30:20,484 you knew you didn't wanna learn COBOL. 816 00:30:20,865 --> 00:30:23,375 Yeah. I I I've been doing COBOL. And 817 00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:27,100 how many how many network protocol implementations are 818 00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:27,680 in COBOL? 819 00:30:30,539 --> 00:30:32,700 I don't know. There are people who would 820 00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:33,200 write 821 00:30:33,900 --> 00:30:34,880 COBOL implementations 822 00:30:35,180 --> 00:30:37,180 of BGP just because it could it could 823 00:30:37,180 --> 00:30:38,640 be done. I mean, 824 00:30:39,644 --> 00:30:41,025 many years ago Google, 825 00:30:41,325 --> 00:30:43,965 right? Yeah. Daniel Walton wrote a wrote an 826 00:30:43,965 --> 00:30:45,985 implementation of BGP in Python 827 00:30:46,765 --> 00:30:47,265 because, 828 00:30:48,045 --> 00:30:48,545 well 829 00:30:49,245 --> 00:30:50,625 Nice. It's there. 830 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:57,460 Nice. Yeah. 831 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,480 So interesting. So, yeah, so I am a 832 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,400 little bit surprised to hear that recruiters are 833 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:03,940 looking for talent 834 00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:05,619 in the realm of, 835 00:31:06,695 --> 00:31:08,934 theory, which is actually heartening to me. I 836 00:31:08,934 --> 00:31:11,515 actually like that because it is a struggle 837 00:31:11,894 --> 00:31:14,055 in our world. I was just talking to 838 00:31:14,055 --> 00:31:14,555 somebody 839 00:31:15,015 --> 00:31:17,015 couple of days. Well, even yesterday, I think 840 00:31:17,015 --> 00:31:18,075 it was on LinkedIn, 841 00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:19,740 and they were asking me, so what are 842 00:31:19,740 --> 00:31:21,660 you teaching now? So I started explaining this 843 00:31:21,660 --> 00:31:24,380 basics thing that I'm doing for, or on 844 00:31:24,380 --> 00:31:26,080 Egan Irgan's site. 845 00:31:27,019 --> 00:31:28,619 And I'm like, and I tried to do 846 00:31:28,619 --> 00:31:29,900 this on my own, but I couldn't get 847 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:30,400 subscriptions 848 00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:32,880 because nobody cares. 849 00:31:33,755 --> 00:31:35,855 Nobody literally cares. Like, 850 00:31:36,474 --> 00:31:38,174 it's so sad to me 851 00:31:38,954 --> 00:31:40,174 that no one cares 852 00:31:41,034 --> 00:31:41,534 about 853 00:31:42,154 --> 00:31:42,654 how 854 00:31:43,434 --> 00:31:44,575 Dykstra works, 855 00:31:45,115 --> 00:31:47,054 you know, down in the dirt and understanding 856 00:31:47,115 --> 00:31:48,869 it. I think the other problem is too 857 00:31:48,869 --> 00:31:51,029 is that when people get into it, maybe 858 00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:52,549 you've seen this, Rick. Maybe there's something you 859 00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:54,070 can think about or talk about a little 860 00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:54,570 bit, 861 00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:55,769 is that 862 00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:58,070 a lot of people think the basics should 863 00:31:58,070 --> 00:32:00,470 be more complex than they are, and they're 864 00:32:00,470 --> 00:32:02,009 more excited about doing 865 00:32:02,714 --> 00:32:03,214 advanced 866 00:32:03,515 --> 00:32:04,015 stuff. 867 00:32:04,474 --> 00:32:06,095 Oh, it's advanced. 868 00:32:06,634 --> 00:32:07,535 And you're like, 869 00:32:08,075 --> 00:32:10,174 if you can do Dijkstra in your head, 870 00:32:10,634 --> 00:32:12,414 that is pretty advanced. 871 00:32:13,434 --> 00:32:13,934 Okay? 872 00:32:14,394 --> 00:32:16,769 Like, that is more advanced than knowing how 873 00:32:16,769 --> 00:32:17,509 to configure 874 00:32:18,690 --> 00:32:22,150 blah dee da or knowing the latest protocol 875 00:32:22,210 --> 00:32:25,190 suite for for Ethernet or whatever it is. 876 00:32:26,529 --> 00:32:27,509 That's advanced, 877 00:32:27,890 --> 00:32:30,630 but they think of advanced as having more, 878 00:32:30,984 --> 00:32:32,505 oh, I I I can I can put 879 00:32:32,505 --> 00:32:34,105 a thousand hours in the lab, so I'm 880 00:32:34,105 --> 00:32:35,784 advanced? You can only put ten in the 881 00:32:35,784 --> 00:32:37,085 lab, so you're not advanced. 882 00:32:37,865 --> 00:32:39,724 That's nothing to do with anything. 883 00:32:40,264 --> 00:32:42,825 Yeah. You see these people doing showing their 884 00:32:42,825 --> 00:32:44,365 con super complex, 885 00:32:45,150 --> 00:32:46,049 I don't even say complex, 886 00:32:46,750 --> 00:32:47,809 busy topologies 887 00:32:48,430 --> 00:32:50,830 with all kinds of devices, switches, routers, and 888 00:32:50,830 --> 00:32:52,150 just like it's 889 00:32:52,589 --> 00:32:53,809 making it more 890 00:32:54,269 --> 00:32:56,830 doesn't make a it means you know more. 891 00:32:56,830 --> 00:32:59,309 You just have to duplicate with the same 892 00:32:59,309 --> 00:32:59,809 thing 893 00:33:00,164 --> 00:33:00,664 many 894 00:33:01,045 --> 00:33:02,164 times. Yeah. And, 895 00:33:02,485 --> 00:33:04,005 I can't say that, you know, it's a 896 00:33:04,005 --> 00:33:06,244 trend with companies. I don't know if it's 897 00:33:06,485 --> 00:33:07,765 I would hope it is, but I don't 898 00:33:07,765 --> 00:33:09,785 know if it's a trend with companies looking 899 00:33:09,924 --> 00:33:10,424 for 900 00:33:10,805 --> 00:33:11,625 the underlying 901 00:33:13,230 --> 00:33:13,730 concepts, 902 00:33:16,029 --> 00:33:17,089 students or 903 00:33:17,470 --> 00:33:19,890 entry level people are knowing the concepts. 904 00:33:20,430 --> 00:33:22,349 But I think it's important because there's so 905 00:33:22,349 --> 00:33:24,269 many companies out there that all they're looking 906 00:33:24,269 --> 00:33:25,650 for is those keywords. 907 00:33:26,154 --> 00:33:27,694 You know, the cert keywords 908 00:33:28,154 --> 00:33:30,255 or they know, you know, 909 00:33:30,714 --> 00:33:31,855 you know, the protocol, 910 00:33:32,154 --> 00:33:32,815 all the, 911 00:33:33,275 --> 00:33:35,914 you know, the out protocol alphabet out there. 912 00:33:35,914 --> 00:33:37,454 Throw it all in there and, 913 00:33:37,835 --> 00:33:39,595 you know, and I can do these things, 914 00:33:39,595 --> 00:33:40,095 but, 915 00:33:41,059 --> 00:33:43,059 I don't get really it's I think it's 916 00:33:43,059 --> 00:33:43,960 it's a 917 00:33:44,259 --> 00:33:46,259 I think these companies are doing a disservice 918 00:33:46,259 --> 00:33:46,920 to themselves 919 00:33:47,299 --> 00:33:49,640 because they're not gonna get the best. 920 00:33:50,259 --> 00:33:51,779 So so we had a couple of people 921 00:33:51,779 --> 00:33:54,200 at Cisco when I was working there that 922 00:33:54,625 --> 00:33:56,484 would interview people in this way. 923 00:33:56,865 --> 00:33:58,544 They would take their resume, and it would 924 00:33:58,544 --> 00:33:59,924 print out a physical copy. 925 00:34:00,304 --> 00:34:02,325 And then they would bring a red pen 926 00:34:02,865 --> 00:34:03,684 to the interview, 927 00:34:04,384 --> 00:34:06,244 and they would start asking questions. 928 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,559 And you would see them writing and writing 929 00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:10,639 and writing and scratching things out. And at 930 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:11,679 the end of the rest, at the end 931 00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:13,280 of the interview, they would hand you back 932 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:14,019 your resume 933 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,260 and say, correct it to say this. 934 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,099 That is brutal. 935 00:34:24,855 --> 00:34:27,015 If if I if I could, if anybody 936 00:34:27,015 --> 00:34:28,855 would would listen to me about this, here's 937 00:34:28,855 --> 00:34:31,335 what I would tell them. These companies that 938 00:34:31,335 --> 00:34:33,095 that that you're talking about, Rick, I think 939 00:34:33,095 --> 00:34:35,609 what they stumbled on was actually an indicator 940 00:34:36,070 --> 00:34:37,690 of whether or not this employee, 941 00:34:38,309 --> 00:34:39,829 is gonna be able to stick with you 942 00:34:39,829 --> 00:34:41,690 and learn the new things that come along 943 00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:43,909 and be able to solve future problems that 944 00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:45,590 you have not yet encountered. I don't think 945 00:34:45,590 --> 00:34:47,670 there's probably maybe there's other ways to screen 946 00:34:47,670 --> 00:34:48,869 for that, but and I don't even know 947 00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:50,364 if companies are screening for that. But if 948 00:34:50,364 --> 00:34:51,885 you want in my opinion, if you wanna 949 00:34:51,885 --> 00:34:53,244 screen for the person who can be for 950 00:34:53,244 --> 00:34:54,605 the long haul and can figure out the 951 00:34:54,605 --> 00:34:55,664 next thing with you, 952 00:34:56,204 --> 00:34:58,125 it's the ones who understand the theory. All 953 00:34:58,125 --> 00:34:59,965 the rest of them will either get disinterested 954 00:34:59,965 --> 00:35:01,485 and they'll quit and they'll leave, they'll get 955 00:35:01,485 --> 00:35:03,005 mad because the new thing changed, or they 956 00:35:03,005 --> 00:35:04,125 just won't be able to do it, then 957 00:35:04,125 --> 00:35:05,849 somebody else is gonna hold their hand. Like, 958 00:35:05,849 --> 00:35:07,450 I I really think this is a screener 959 00:35:07,450 --> 00:35:08,890 for people who can stay for the long 960 00:35:08,890 --> 00:35:09,390 haul. 961 00:35:10,090 --> 00:35:12,650 Yeah. That's the perfect way to summarize everything 962 00:35:12,650 --> 00:35:14,489 I said for, like, forty minutes and all 963 00:35:14,489 --> 00:35:14,989 that. 964 00:35:17,690 --> 00:35:19,605 And you know what? We're all tired of 965 00:35:19,605 --> 00:35:22,244 being the person holding everybody else's hand. That's 966 00:35:22,244 --> 00:35:23,465 true. It's true. 967 00:35:24,885 --> 00:35:27,844 You know, it gets talk about cynicism. That'll 968 00:35:27,844 --> 00:35:29,465 get you cynical very quickly. 969 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:35,840 Yeah. So I don't know. I mean, it's 970 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,599 it's one of those things. But I also 971 00:35:37,599 --> 00:35:40,260 don't know that companies even at my level, 972 00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:43,519 not just beginning level, really a lot of 973 00:35:43,519 --> 00:35:44,500 times value 974 00:35:45,039 --> 00:35:46,500 the theoretical knowledge. 975 00:35:47,525 --> 00:35:49,224 They're very focused on 976 00:35:49,605 --> 00:35:52,265 get this product out the door right now. 977 00:35:52,325 --> 00:35:53,605 And by the way, the other thing that 978 00:35:53,605 --> 00:35:54,885 annoys me, I don't know if you have 979 00:35:54,885 --> 00:35:56,184 anything with this, Rick, 980 00:35:56,565 --> 00:35:58,885 but I'm very much a do the right 981 00:35:58,885 --> 00:36:00,344 thing. Kind of an engineer. 982 00:36:01,679 --> 00:36:03,059 I know it's gonna take longer. 983 00:36:03,519 --> 00:36:05,359 I know it's gonna be harder. I know 984 00:36:05,359 --> 00:36:07,059 it's gonna cost a little bit more money, 985 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,859 but the reality is I have never 986 00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:12,099 ever been in a situation 987 00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:13,699 ever in my entire 988 00:36:14,159 --> 00:36:14,659 life 989 00:36:15,085 --> 00:36:17,425 from working on rebuilding cars 990 00:36:17,885 --> 00:36:20,144 through through working on radar systems, 991 00:36:20,765 --> 00:36:24,045 to working on networks and writing code that 992 00:36:24,045 --> 00:36:24,945 I've ever 993 00:36:25,644 --> 00:36:26,144 found 994 00:36:26,605 --> 00:36:29,344 that doing it the cheap, easy, quick way 995 00:36:30,059 --> 00:36:33,199 was a win. It just never was. 996 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:35,519 I've never seen it happen. 997 00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:36,140 So 998 00:36:37,820 --> 00:36:39,739 I I know in my work I do 999 00:36:39,820 --> 00:36:41,900 it's another work I do with somebody in 1000 00:36:41,900 --> 00:36:44,619 writing curriculum and even trying to write some 1001 00:36:44,619 --> 00:36:48,175 books. No, Grace Hopper was one of my 1002 00:36:48,175 --> 00:36:49,635 longtime hero of mine. 1003 00:36:50,655 --> 00:36:52,655 For those who don't know who she is, 1004 00:36:52,655 --> 00:36:53,855 she, you know, 1005 00:36:54,494 --> 00:36:57,420 developed the the COBOL language but way back, 1006 00:36:57,420 --> 00:36:59,599 back goes way back to the Harvard Northwell. 1007 00:36:59,659 --> 00:37:01,339 I'm not not really sure why she's a 1008 00:37:01,339 --> 00:37:03,359 hero, you know, with the whole cable COBOL 1009 00:37:03,980 --> 00:37:06,059 thing. Was it also Ada? Did she do 1010 00:37:06,059 --> 00:37:06,559 Ada? 1011 00:37:07,019 --> 00:37:09,539 No. Ada was Ada no. I don't think 1012 00:37:09,659 --> 00:37:11,500 I think that was after her. Yeah. Might 1013 00:37:11,579 --> 00:37:13,744 must have been, but yeah. Yeah. 1014 00:37:14,125 --> 00:37:16,204 But, you know, she she once said, you 1015 00:37:16,204 --> 00:37:16,704 know, 1016 00:37:17,005 --> 00:37:18,764 we we only look at the cost of 1017 00:37:18,764 --> 00:37:20,844 doing something. We never look at the cost 1018 00:37:20,844 --> 00:37:22,384 of not doing something. 1019 00:37:23,244 --> 00:37:23,744 And, 1020 00:37:24,605 --> 00:37:26,930 you know, when you when you when you 1021 00:37:26,930 --> 00:37:29,090 do try and scrape and save and get 1022 00:37:29,090 --> 00:37:31,010 things do things as cheap and quick as 1023 00:37:31,010 --> 00:37:33,010 possible, there's gonna be a cost to that 1024 00:37:33,010 --> 00:37:35,030 in the long run. You may not 1025 00:37:35,650 --> 00:37:37,809 right away, but you're gonna you're gonna see 1026 00:37:37,809 --> 00:37:39,590 it's gonna come back and bite you. 1027 00:37:40,434 --> 00:37:42,194 Yep. And it it's in the really end 1028 00:37:42,194 --> 00:37:45,074 up costing you more later. Yeah. An example 1029 00:37:45,074 --> 00:37:46,634 I use all the well, I've been starting 1030 00:37:46,634 --> 00:37:48,135 to use recently is 1031 00:37:48,594 --> 00:37:50,054 look at any car company. 1032 00:37:50,914 --> 00:37:52,835 Just look at all their designs. Now we 1033 00:37:52,835 --> 00:37:54,594 fuss because all the cars look the same. 1034 00:37:54,594 --> 00:37:56,109 Blah blah blah. I get that. And that 1035 00:37:56,109 --> 00:37:56,730 there's regulatory 1036 00:37:57,269 --> 00:37:58,250 reasons for that. 1037 00:37:58,869 --> 00:38:00,789 How many car how many car models does 1038 00:38:00,789 --> 00:38:03,050 Volvo, for instance, make? It's at least 1039 00:38:03,349 --> 00:38:03,849 12 1040 00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:06,550 and probably more. I don't even know. I 1041 00:38:06,550 --> 00:38:08,489 could go look at their website. 1042 00:38:09,510 --> 00:38:11,450 They literally make three cars. 1043 00:38:13,484 --> 00:38:15,964 Three cars. Three models of cars. Now they 1044 00:38:15,964 --> 00:38:18,704 come with different sheet mod sheet sheet metal. 1045 00:38:19,085 --> 00:38:20,704 They come with different interiors. 1046 00:38:21,085 --> 00:38:23,164 They come with different wheels. They come with, 1047 00:38:23,164 --> 00:38:25,565 like, one is a sport utility and one's 1048 00:38:25,565 --> 00:38:27,425 a station wagon and one's a coupe, 1049 00:38:28,340 --> 00:38:29,559 but they're the same 1050 00:38:30,179 --> 00:38:32,199 platform, and they call them platforms. 1051 00:38:33,140 --> 00:38:35,619 Another classic example of this is the Jeep 1052 00:38:35,619 --> 00:38:37,800 Renegade and the Fiat 500 1053 00:38:38,019 --> 00:38:38,760 are actually 1054 00:38:39,219 --> 00:38:40,280 the same platform. 1055 00:38:40,815 --> 00:38:43,054 They have different engines, and they have different 1056 00:38:43,054 --> 00:38:43,795 sheet metal. 1057 00:38:44,655 --> 00:38:47,614 But everything else is fairly much identical between 1058 00:38:47,614 --> 00:38:48,514 those two cars. 1059 00:38:49,295 --> 00:38:51,795 You'd never think that that could be true. 1060 00:38:51,855 --> 00:38:53,695 But what these but what these car companies 1061 00:38:53,695 --> 00:38:55,650 have discovered or what they do is they 1062 00:38:55,650 --> 00:38:57,809 build a platform and then they build variety 1063 00:38:57,809 --> 00:38:58,869 on top of the platform. 1064 00:39:00,049 --> 00:39:02,389 And we don't do this. 1065 00:39:06,130 --> 00:39:08,690 You know? It's part of doing the right 1066 00:39:08,690 --> 00:39:11,025 thing to me is you think through 1067 00:39:12,844 --> 00:39:15,485 what is my platform? What's the part that 1068 00:39:15,485 --> 00:39:17,664 moves and what's the part that doesn't move? 1069 00:39:19,085 --> 00:39:19,585 Right? 1070 00:39:19,965 --> 00:39:21,644 I used to have this old professional soccer 1071 00:39:21,644 --> 00:39:23,670 player and he'd say, you always kick 1072 00:39:24,530 --> 00:39:25,989 like, when you kick the ball, 1073 00:39:26,289 --> 00:39:28,550 you don't kick towards the center of body, 1074 00:39:28,690 --> 00:39:30,610 center of mass, you kick off from center 1075 00:39:30,610 --> 00:39:32,610 of mass because all the other parts of 1076 00:39:32,610 --> 00:39:34,309 the of your opponent are missing 1077 00:39:34,610 --> 00:39:36,715 or moving. If you're trying to pass the 1078 00:39:36,715 --> 00:39:38,875 ball, you give it you you kick it 1079 00:39:38,875 --> 00:39:41,195 to center of mass because that's the part 1080 00:39:41,195 --> 00:39:42,175 that isn't moving. 1081 00:39:44,155 --> 00:39:44,655 Oh. 1082 00:39:45,594 --> 00:39:47,730 It's it's an interesting but, anyway, sorry. That's 1083 00:39:47,730 --> 00:39:49,369 what I was thinking most of my life. 1084 00:39:49,369 --> 00:39:50,570 I mean, you got me, 1085 00:39:51,289 --> 00:39:51,789 rethinking 1086 00:39:52,170 --> 00:39:52,670 everything. 1087 00:39:54,410 --> 00:39:56,010 I was just I was just thinking about 1088 00:39:56,010 --> 00:39:57,930 interop when you were saying that. You know? 1089 00:39:57,930 --> 00:40:00,329 One player kicking a ball to another. Yeah. 1090 00:40:00,329 --> 00:40:01,984 Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's true. 1091 00:40:02,284 --> 00:40:03,664 I will say the curriculum 1092 00:40:04,364 --> 00:40:05,744 work I do, they do 1093 00:40:06,125 --> 00:40:08,364 for some reason, they they, you know, people 1094 00:40:08,364 --> 00:40:10,045 sometimes they, like, you know, at least they 1095 00:40:10,045 --> 00:40:11,565 listen to me. And they they really do. 1096 00:40:11,565 --> 00:40:13,085 They did. The work I do on a 1097 00:40:13,085 --> 00:40:14,224 curriculum team, 1098 00:40:15,164 --> 00:40:15,664 is, 1099 00:40:16,403 --> 00:40:18,510 it you know, hardworking and they wanna do 1100 00:40:18,510 --> 00:40:20,610 the right thing. And that, I think, is 1101 00:40:20,989 --> 00:40:23,410 because they see the benefit to the learner, 1102 00:40:23,470 --> 00:40:24,989 the student. And I think that's really 1103 00:40:25,789 --> 00:40:26,190 it's, 1104 00:40:27,150 --> 00:40:29,710 it there's a passion there. When you're working 1105 00:40:29,710 --> 00:40:31,970 in especially when you're trying to help 1106 00:40:32,405 --> 00:40:34,664 students, people tend to really will 1107 00:40:35,445 --> 00:40:37,545 a little bit more. Yeah. Cool. 1108 00:40:37,844 --> 00:40:38,344 Awesome. 1109 00:40:38,644 --> 00:40:40,244 Well, I think we can wrap up there, 1110 00:40:40,244 --> 00:40:42,885 actually. I think we've captured enough of Rick's 1111 00:40:42,885 --> 00:40:43,385 time. 1112 00:40:44,099 --> 00:40:45,700 So, Rick, we're gonna bring you back on 1113 00:40:45,700 --> 00:40:47,300 sometime. You know? We just need to make 1114 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:49,059 you into another one of the regular guests 1115 00:40:49,059 --> 00:40:50,200 to talk about stuff. 1116 00:40:52,019 --> 00:40:54,280 So I always wanna and to actually, 1117 00:40:54,660 --> 00:40:56,599 you know, see the plant live. 1118 00:40:57,780 --> 00:41:00,304 There you go. And so because that's what 1119 00:41:00,304 --> 00:41:02,784 I I I tune in every episode is 1120 00:41:02,784 --> 00:41:04,164 the plant. And the whiteboard. 1121 00:41:04,784 --> 00:41:05,444 The whiteboard. 1122 00:41:05,905 --> 00:41:08,065 Yeah. The whiteboard. You know, you gotta look 1123 00:41:08,065 --> 00:41:10,405 for what are Tom's kids studying this week. 1124 00:41:10,809 --> 00:41:11,630 Yep. Yep. 1125 00:41:12,809 --> 00:41:14,269 Because that's what's on the whiteboard. 1126 00:41:14,809 --> 00:41:16,889 My background is boring. It stays the same 1127 00:41:16,889 --> 00:41:18,730 all the time. You know, I might move 1128 00:41:18,730 --> 00:41:21,289 things around, but It's like books you wrote 1129 00:41:21,289 --> 00:41:23,144 and accomplishments you have, but now we're gonna 1130 00:41:23,144 --> 00:41:24,125 talk about the plant. 1131 00:41:28,344 --> 00:41:29,785 Yeah. I had a thing for a while 1132 00:41:29,785 --> 00:41:31,385 that every country I went to, I tried 1133 00:41:31,385 --> 00:41:32,985 to buy something I could put on my 1134 00:41:33,224 --> 00:41:34,204 in my office. 1135 00:41:35,079 --> 00:41:37,239 But it it didn't it didn't actually work 1136 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,239 out very well. What I did do is 1137 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,000 every country I went to, I bought my 1138 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,619 daughters both a pair of earrings. 1139 00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:47,639 So It's nice. So so now they have 1140 00:41:47,639 --> 00:41:49,659 these huge earring collections, 1141 00:41:50,135 --> 00:41:51,734 and they can't remember what countries they all 1142 00:41:51,734 --> 00:41:53,114 came from, but that's okay. 1143 00:41:55,094 --> 00:41:57,194 Yeah. It's, it's still what it is. 1144 00:41:57,494 --> 00:41:59,275 All right. Cool. All right, 1145 00:41:59,655 --> 00:42:01,355 Tom, say your word. 1146 00:42:01,894 --> 00:42:02,394 LinkedIn. 1147 00:42:03,219 --> 00:42:04,280 All right, Rick. 1148 00:42:05,099 --> 00:42:05,599 You 1149 00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:07,719 like this LinkedIn. 1150 00:42:09,219 --> 00:42:11,239 Yes. Virtual high five to Rick. 1151 00:42:11,699 --> 00:42:12,199 Wow. 1152 00:42:16,340 --> 00:42:17,640 You're outnumbered Russ. 1153 00:42:19,605 --> 00:42:20,105 Alright. 1154 00:42:21,204 --> 00:42:22,965 I guess that's it then. Alright. This is 1155 00:42:22,965 --> 00:42:24,724 Russ White and I, you can always find 1156 00:42:24,724 --> 00:42:26,244 me here at rule 11 at tech on 1157 00:42:26,244 --> 00:42:26,824 the hedge 1158 00:42:27,125 --> 00:42:30,164 on LinkedIn on x. Sometimes I'd log in, 1159 00:42:30,164 --> 00:42:32,485 not always, but sometimes I'm out there looking 1160 00:42:32,485 --> 00:42:33,065 at that. 1161 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,039 We know we live in an attention driven 1162 00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:37,200 economy, and we thank you for listening all 1163 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:38,900 the way to the bitter end 1164 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,220 of this episode of The Hedge, 1165 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:43,539 and we will catch you next time.