1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:03,699 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:03,759 --> 00:00:05,139 where we dig into technology, 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,160 business, and culture with the finest minds in 4 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:09,139 computer networking. 5 00:00:20,335 --> 00:00:21,394 Well, hello, Tom. 6 00:00:22,254 --> 00:00:23,154 Hello, Russ. 7 00:00:24,175 --> 00:00:26,414 You pushed all the articles to one side 8 00:00:26,414 --> 00:00:27,154 of the whiteboard. 9 00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:29,879 There must be something written there but we 10 00:00:29,879 --> 00:00:30,699 can't read it. 11 00:00:31,079 --> 00:00:31,719 Yeah. So 12 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,239 It's an invisible dry erase marker. Yes. It 13 00:00:35,239 --> 00:00:37,640 is. Yes. It is. It's an invisible dry 14 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,559 erase marker. You had put lemon juice on 15 00:00:39,559 --> 00:00:41,000 it to make it visible. Is that it 16 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:42,245 you want? Right. 17 00:00:42,704 --> 00:00:44,545 Right. It's a it's a list it's a 18 00:00:44,545 --> 00:00:46,385 list of all. Black light. It's a black 19 00:00:46,385 --> 00:00:47,984 light. Yeah. I like the black light idea 20 00:00:47,984 --> 00:00:49,125 better. That's cool. 21 00:00:50,304 --> 00:00:52,484 And then today, we also have Yvonne 22 00:00:53,185 --> 00:00:54,005 Hello. Hello. 23 00:00:54,945 --> 00:00:56,804 With her fog lamp. And 24 00:00:57,700 --> 00:00:59,859 Yvonne, I was at a cookie company yesterday. 25 00:00:59,859 --> 00:01:02,039 It's gonna sound really not yesterday. Last week. 26 00:01:02,500 --> 00:01:05,000 It's gonna sound really weird, but they had 27 00:01:05,299 --> 00:01:08,099 this really great cookie tin, and it said, 28 00:01:08,099 --> 00:01:09,400 well, bless your heart. 29 00:01:09,724 --> 00:01:11,884 And I thought of people. I thought of 30 00:01:11,884 --> 00:01:12,384 you. 31 00:01:15,804 --> 00:01:17,164 I don't know that we said that so 32 00:01:17,164 --> 00:01:19,244 much in our in our family growing up. 33 00:01:19,244 --> 00:01:21,484 We had other we had other weird sayings, 34 00:01:21,484 --> 00:01:23,244 but not that one didn't seem to be 35 00:01:23,244 --> 00:01:23,744 as 36 00:01:24,219 --> 00:01:25,040 as common. 37 00:01:25,579 --> 00:01:27,040 I have a a lifelong 38 00:01:27,420 --> 00:01:27,920 loathing 39 00:01:28,379 --> 00:01:30,619 of terms of endearment, you know, honey, baby, 40 00:01:30,619 --> 00:01:33,099 sweetie, all those things. Oh, yeah. I I 41 00:01:33,099 --> 00:01:34,079 just it's 42 00:01:34,780 --> 00:01:37,259 it's not my favorite. I I heard too 43 00:01:37,259 --> 00:01:38,159 much of that 44 00:01:38,685 --> 00:01:42,144 in a syrupy, disingenuous way growing up that, 45 00:01:42,685 --> 00:01:45,344 nope. Not for me. Yep. Yep. 46 00:01:46,364 --> 00:01:47,484 I went to a concert 47 00:01:47,965 --> 00:01:50,465 a a Christian rock concert one time, and 48 00:01:50,604 --> 00:01:51,744 the guy who was 49 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:55,120 the guy who was leading the band got 50 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,960 up on stage and said he was talking 51 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:58,640 about something, and he said, shot who in 52 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,640 whose backyard? Didn't even know they had a 53 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:01,140 cow. 54 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,780 And I was like, he's from Georgia. 55 00:02:04,719 --> 00:02:06,960 And so I went and I looked it 56 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:07,460 up, 57 00:02:07,825 --> 00:02:09,925 and, yeah, he grew up about 58 00:02:10,705 --> 00:02:12,884 thirty, forty miles from where I grew up. 59 00:02:15,504 --> 00:02:17,985 It's just Sometimes you can tell. Sometimes you 60 00:02:17,985 --> 00:02:19,824 can tell. He's a little bit too and 61 00:02:19,824 --> 00:02:21,205 phrases are a dead giveaway. 62 00:02:23,610 --> 00:02:24,110 So 63 00:02:24,569 --> 00:02:27,069 today, we are talking about modularization 64 00:02:27,530 --> 00:02:29,230 and mitigating people problems. 65 00:02:29,930 --> 00:02:32,510 Now I'll just say, I have often thought 66 00:02:32,730 --> 00:02:34,030 that if you took everyone 67 00:02:34,330 --> 00:02:36,330 and put them in their own little padded 68 00:02:36,330 --> 00:02:36,830 cell, 69 00:02:39,144 --> 00:02:41,405 the world would be a much calmer place. 70 00:02:41,944 --> 00:02:42,844 You'll be quieter. 71 00:02:44,824 --> 00:02:47,084 Yeah. But you still have to build interfaces 72 00:02:47,144 --> 00:02:49,564 between modules for us, so it's not like 73 00:02:50,780 --> 00:02:52,719 it's not like the padded cells are gonna 74 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:56,080 make the problem go away. I'm not convinced. 75 00:02:56,540 --> 00:02:57,919 You'll have to work harder. 76 00:02:58,699 --> 00:03:00,379 I don't know. Does anything work if you 77 00:03:00,379 --> 00:03:02,780 have zero interaction surfaces, Russ? I know we 78 00:03:02,780 --> 00:03:04,800 talk about reducing interaction surfaces, 79 00:03:05,284 --> 00:03:06,824 but I don't think zero 80 00:03:07,125 --> 00:03:09,064 interaction surfaces is the right, 81 00:03:10,165 --> 00:03:12,585 choice either. The older I get, 82 00:03:13,284 --> 00:03:15,944 the older Depute your interaction surfaces you want. 83 00:03:19,764 --> 00:03:20,665 I can relate. 84 00:03:21,389 --> 00:03:23,090 Yep. That's pretty much it. 85 00:03:23,870 --> 00:03:25,650 So but it's interesting because 86 00:03:26,189 --> 00:03:28,210 he starts off talking about 87 00:03:28,909 --> 00:03:29,409 microservices, 88 00:03:29,949 --> 00:03:30,449 right, 89 00:03:31,150 --> 00:03:33,490 and how we use modularization 90 00:03:34,830 --> 00:03:35,330 to, 91 00:03:36,525 --> 00:03:37,264 what, to, 92 00:03:39,085 --> 00:03:41,344 like, create little spaces where 93 00:03:42,205 --> 00:03:44,064 different things can take place? 94 00:03:47,165 --> 00:03:48,224 Decouple services, 95 00:03:48,525 --> 00:03:49,824 you make them work independently. 96 00:03:50,284 --> 00:03:52,639 You can change one without having an impact 97 00:03:52,639 --> 00:03:53,460 on the other. 98 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,959 Yeah. Reduces blast radius. Yep. Yeah. All of 99 00:03:56,959 --> 00:03:57,699 that stuff. 100 00:03:58,879 --> 00:03:59,379 Okay. 101 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:01,219 But, I mean, 102 00:04:01,919 --> 00:04:04,180 how do you apply that to people problems? 103 00:04:04,405 --> 00:04:06,084 I know, Yvonne, you had some things to 104 00:04:06,084 --> 00:04:08,504 say before we jumped on there. 105 00:04:09,125 --> 00:04:10,644 Oh, well, one of the one of the 106 00:04:10,644 --> 00:04:12,564 points that he makes in very early on 107 00:04:12,564 --> 00:04:13,465 in this article 108 00:04:13,764 --> 00:04:14,504 is that, 109 00:04:15,604 --> 00:04:16,425 adding modularization 110 00:04:17,365 --> 00:04:20,199 might not might mitigate people problems, but not 111 00:04:20,199 --> 00:04:20,699 necessarily 112 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:21,819 solve them. 113 00:04:22,199 --> 00:04:22,839 And I think, 114 00:04:23,479 --> 00:04:24,620 I think that's true. 115 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,479 But but something that I've said a lot 116 00:04:27,479 --> 00:04:29,399 lately in my world is that there are 117 00:04:29,399 --> 00:04:31,720 some problems that you solve and some problems 118 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,419 that you manage. And sometimes 119 00:04:35,245 --> 00:04:36,704 changing how you 120 00:04:37,324 --> 00:04:39,584 organize people or organize teams 121 00:04:40,125 --> 00:04:43,485 can either increase or decrease the friction based 122 00:04:43,485 --> 00:04:45,644 on how you do that. So there's there's 123 00:04:45,644 --> 00:04:47,264 some truth there. But 124 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:49,839 the other the other thing that happens, and 125 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,100 we've seen this in microservices as well, 126 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:53,540 the more you modularize, 127 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,600 the more those services have to communicate with 128 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:58,339 one another. 129 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:00,740 And so you create this this 130 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:01,620 mesh, 131 00:05:02,175 --> 00:05:02,915 this communication 132 00:05:03,294 --> 00:05:03,794 mesh, 133 00:05:04,415 --> 00:05:06,915 and, and just like in our systems, 134 00:05:07,294 --> 00:05:09,314 like the more of those that you have, 135 00:05:10,254 --> 00:05:12,495 the more energy it takes to maintain those 136 00:05:12,495 --> 00:05:14,735 systems of communication. So you really gotta think 137 00:05:14,735 --> 00:05:16,035 about how you're gonna 138 00:05:16,460 --> 00:05:19,340 divide up your services or your teams and 139 00:05:19,340 --> 00:05:21,840 what those communication structures are gonna look like 140 00:05:21,980 --> 00:05:24,319 because ultimately that will shape 141 00:05:24,780 --> 00:05:26,960 what you make. A la 142 00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:28,639 Conway's law. 143 00:05:29,084 --> 00:05:31,805 Well, right. So, normally, we think of Conway's 144 00:05:31,805 --> 00:05:32,944 Law, and we think about 145 00:05:33,324 --> 00:05:33,824 how 146 00:05:34,365 --> 00:05:35,105 the organization 147 00:05:35,485 --> 00:05:36,704 follows the software. 148 00:05:37,564 --> 00:05:40,305 But what what what this article is advocating 149 00:05:41,004 --> 00:05:42,545 is you do the opposite. 150 00:05:44,770 --> 00:05:45,509 You use 151 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:49,009 the software to drive the culture in the 152 00:05:49,009 --> 00:05:49,830 other direction, 153 00:05:50,449 --> 00:05:51,810 or you use the culture to drive the 154 00:05:51,810 --> 00:05:53,569 software, whatever you want to say it. Like, 155 00:05:53,569 --> 00:05:55,189 you are actually intentionally 156 00:05:56,050 --> 00:05:56,550 choosing 157 00:05:57,444 --> 00:05:58,345 an organizational 158 00:05:58,725 --> 00:05:59,225 method 159 00:05:59,845 --> 00:06:00,665 in order 160 00:06:02,564 --> 00:06:04,824 to or an organization of software 161 00:06:05,205 --> 00:06:05,944 to cause 162 00:06:06,404 --> 00:06:09,225 the human organization to work a certain way, 163 00:06:09,845 --> 00:06:11,064 which is microservices. 164 00:06:11,365 --> 00:06:11,865 Right? 165 00:06:12,509 --> 00:06:14,930 And so this is this is interesting because 166 00:06:15,389 --> 00:06:16,370 it is true 167 00:06:16,910 --> 00:06:18,910 that we do spend a lot of time 168 00:06:19,550 --> 00:06:21,229 and this is the being this is the 169 00:06:21,229 --> 00:06:23,389 role I kinda play. One of the roles 170 00:06:23,389 --> 00:06:24,909 I play at Akamai, I owe them being 171 00:06:24,909 --> 00:06:27,654 like this, forward looking, trying to dream up 172 00:06:27,654 --> 00:06:28,395 new ideas, 173 00:06:28,855 --> 00:06:30,074 but also the, 174 00:06:30,935 --> 00:06:33,814 okay, I've got this alert over here, and 175 00:06:33,814 --> 00:06:35,735 I've got these people that provide the alert 176 00:06:35,735 --> 00:06:37,975 and these people that consume the alert, and 177 00:06:37,975 --> 00:06:39,254 I need to get them in the same 178 00:06:39,254 --> 00:06:40,715 room to talk to one another. 179 00:06:41,579 --> 00:06:43,100 And so that's part of the role you 180 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:44,699 play as an architect. People don't think about 181 00:06:44,699 --> 00:06:46,860 it as being an architectural role, but it 182 00:06:46,860 --> 00:06:49,839 actually is an architectural role. And so 183 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:53,519 there's a lot of bickering that goes on 184 00:06:53,819 --> 00:06:55,439 in trying to figure out, 185 00:06:56,134 --> 00:06:58,295 oh, is that really what you meant? Where 186 00:06:58,295 --> 00:06:59,595 should that really map? 187 00:07:00,055 --> 00:07:02,314 How should that when should that alert happen? 188 00:07:02,855 --> 00:07:04,775 When shouldn't it happen? All those kinds of 189 00:07:04,775 --> 00:07:05,275 questions 190 00:07:05,735 --> 00:07:06,475 come up. 191 00:07:07,254 --> 00:07:08,395 And so modularization, 192 00:07:09,014 --> 00:07:10,074 as you said, Yvonne, 193 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,100 creates more of those interaction surfaces, 194 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:16,199 but you also don't have the 195 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,160 it's not my it's not my monkey. It's 196 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:19,980 not my circus. 197 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:22,680 Right? Well and we we don't 198 00:07:23,754 --> 00:07:25,694 The more people that have to agree 199 00:07:26,235 --> 00:07:27,055 on a thing, 200 00:07:28,555 --> 00:07:30,495 the harder it is to get it done. 201 00:07:30,714 --> 00:07:32,574 Right? And so I think part of what 202 00:07:32,875 --> 00:07:35,134 the argument he's making here in this article 203 00:07:35,275 --> 00:07:36,895 is if you can split 204 00:07:37,595 --> 00:07:38,415 a a team 205 00:07:38,980 --> 00:07:41,319 in two and have them work independently, 206 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:44,339 there are fewer decisions that need to be 207 00:07:44,339 --> 00:07:47,240 made about how you're gonna build that particular 208 00:07:47,379 --> 00:07:47,879 thing. 209 00:07:49,540 --> 00:07:51,379 Or the decisions are, or they can, or 210 00:07:51,379 --> 00:07:52,740 they don't have to be the same. They 211 00:07:52,740 --> 00:07:55,514 can make different decisions that work for each 212 00:07:55,514 --> 00:07:56,014 team. 213 00:07:56,634 --> 00:07:57,615 That is great 214 00:07:58,314 --> 00:07:58,814 until 215 00:07:59,115 --> 00:08:00,814 you have tools for all 216 00:08:01,754 --> 00:08:03,435 or, you know, you you still have to 217 00:08:03,435 --> 00:08:05,615 have some agreed upon standards, 218 00:08:06,475 --> 00:08:07,295 but also 219 00:08:07,835 --> 00:08:10,220 providing teams with the flexibility 220 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,319 and the autonomy to work is super important. 221 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:15,400 And I think the autonomy argument is the 222 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,720 other big thing here. Is that we're gonna 223 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,639 let you decide the tools that you use. 224 00:08:19,639 --> 00:08:21,660 We're gonna let you as a group 225 00:08:22,199 --> 00:08:24,460 figure out how you wanna approach this. 226 00:08:25,024 --> 00:08:26,404 And your goal is to 227 00:08:26,705 --> 00:08:29,045 accomplish the thing whatever it is. 228 00:08:30,064 --> 00:08:32,945 And and to do that as independently as 229 00:08:32,945 --> 00:08:34,304 possible and I think there's a ton of 230 00:08:34,304 --> 00:08:35,044 value there. 231 00:08:35,345 --> 00:08:37,345 One of the one of the examples he 232 00:08:37,345 --> 00:08:38,644 used in the article was, 233 00:08:39,179 --> 00:08:40,779 you know, a team like part of the 234 00:08:40,779 --> 00:08:42,620 people on the on the team working on 235 00:08:42,620 --> 00:08:45,019 module want to want to introduce integration tests 236 00:08:45,019 --> 00:08:46,540 and the other ones don't and so they 237 00:08:46,540 --> 00:08:48,299 all affect each other. You know half the 238 00:08:48,299 --> 00:08:50,299 team is is what they perceive as negatively 239 00:08:50,299 --> 00:08:51,980 affected by the other half of the team 240 00:08:51,980 --> 00:08:54,345 and so the solution there is divided up 241 00:08:54,345 --> 00:08:55,705 into two modules and then if the ones 242 00:08:55,705 --> 00:08:56,825 that want to do test, fine, here you 243 00:08:56,825 --> 00:08:58,504 go, the ones that don't, don't. So there's 244 00:08:58,504 --> 00:09:00,105 kind of the thing that highlights there for 245 00:09:00,105 --> 00:09:01,004 me is the, 246 00:09:01,544 --> 00:09:04,125 the the conflict there is managed by 247 00:09:04,504 --> 00:09:06,799 by not having a certain group of people 248 00:09:06,799 --> 00:09:09,379 affected by another certain group of people's decisions 249 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:10,580 and, 250 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:12,879 you know, that's I think I think that's 251 00:09:12,879 --> 00:09:14,720 interesting and whenever you work in a place 252 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,040 where somebody's doing something and you just have 253 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:18,559 to live with it and they can make 254 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:20,580 a poor decision and make your life worse, 255 00:09:20,875 --> 00:09:22,795 That's that's pretty hard. That's that's one of 256 00:09:22,795 --> 00:09:23,695 those people problems. 257 00:09:23,995 --> 00:09:25,754 And, you know, just dividing up the pie 258 00:09:25,754 --> 00:09:27,115 and saying fine, this is yours and this 259 00:09:27,115 --> 00:09:27,695 is yours, 260 00:09:28,075 --> 00:09:30,315 doesn't entirely solve it because as soon as 261 00:09:30,315 --> 00:09:31,995 you do that, you have to have standards 262 00:09:31,995 --> 00:09:34,175 not necessarily for what runs inside the modules, 263 00:09:34,399 --> 00:09:36,639 but for how what runs between them, and 264 00:09:36,639 --> 00:09:38,399 how they communicate with each other. And so 265 00:09:38,399 --> 00:09:40,100 you still have to agree on some things, 266 00:09:40,879 --> 00:09:43,519 but just not all things. And the problem 267 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:45,840 is just what you said, their standards. Right, 268 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,340 Tom? Like, if one team's doing 269 00:09:49,665 --> 00:09:51,585 one type of test, an integration test, and 270 00:09:51,585 --> 00:09:52,404 the other isn't, 271 00:09:52,785 --> 00:09:55,424 then there could be a quality problem you 272 00:09:55,424 --> 00:09:57,045 have to deal with down the road. 273 00:09:57,665 --> 00:09:59,665 And one thing he doesn't really talk about 274 00:09:59,665 --> 00:10:01,365 here, which I think is really important, 275 00:10:01,985 --> 00:10:03,059 is the depth 276 00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:05,399 of those interaction surfaces 277 00:10:05,779 --> 00:10:07,879 and the breadth of those interaction surfaces. 278 00:10:08,580 --> 00:10:09,879 If you can just 279 00:10:10,500 --> 00:10:12,759 hand the problem off to another team, 280 00:10:13,220 --> 00:10:15,075 you're actually in a pretty good place. 281 00:10:15,634 --> 00:10:17,315 But if you're in a position where you 282 00:10:17,315 --> 00:10:18,134 have to say, 283 00:10:18,514 --> 00:10:20,274 I'm going to provide you with lots of 284 00:10:20,274 --> 00:10:20,774 information, 285 00:10:21,634 --> 00:10:24,535 the alerting example is one where 286 00:10:25,475 --> 00:10:27,975 the people producing the alert and the people 287 00:10:28,434 --> 00:10:29,495 using the alert 288 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:32,440 have different standards about what's important 289 00:10:33,379 --> 00:10:35,639 and how to mix these things up. 290 00:10:36,019 --> 00:10:39,059 So the integration surface the the the yeah. 291 00:10:39,059 --> 00:10:41,139 The integration surface is very deep in this 292 00:10:41,139 --> 00:10:43,934 case in many ways. Because if the people 293 00:10:43,934 --> 00:10:46,194 producing the alert change anything, 294 00:10:47,294 --> 00:10:48,654 all of a sudden, the people on the 295 00:10:48,654 --> 00:10:50,654 other side of it well, you know, it's 296 00:10:50,654 --> 00:10:53,375 like I aggregate out a route. But every 297 00:10:53,375 --> 00:10:55,694 time the route the metric of any component 298 00:10:55,694 --> 00:10:56,754 of the route changes, 299 00:10:57,659 --> 00:11:00,379 the route itself changes. How much good have 300 00:11:00,379 --> 00:11:01,039 I done 301 00:11:01,899 --> 00:11:05,679 with that aggregation point by abstracting something out? 302 00:11:05,740 --> 00:11:07,019 And it's gonna be the same thing with 303 00:11:07,019 --> 00:11:08,539 people problems. We just don't think about it 304 00:11:08,539 --> 00:11:10,384 in those terms. Right? But it's going to 305 00:11:10,384 --> 00:11:12,784 be exactly the same thing. There's part of 306 00:11:12,784 --> 00:11:15,444 me though that as I read this, it's 307 00:11:15,504 --> 00:11:16,004 it's 308 00:11:16,784 --> 00:11:18,644 it feels a little bit like 309 00:11:19,184 --> 00:11:21,284 you're you're trying to solve 310 00:11:21,745 --> 00:11:22,404 a problem 311 00:11:23,139 --> 00:11:25,799 by not really solving the problem. It sounds 312 00:11:26,259 --> 00:11:28,339 like, you know, and and there are times 313 00:11:28,339 --> 00:11:29,399 when there 314 00:11:29,940 --> 00:11:30,759 are irresolvable 315 00:11:31,139 --> 00:11:33,000 conflicts or things like that 316 00:11:33,379 --> 00:11:36,179 that that where, you know, splitting up teams 317 00:11:36,179 --> 00:11:38,419 is is gonna make sense. But I do 318 00:11:38,419 --> 00:11:39,934 think, like, ultimately, 319 00:11:40,235 --> 00:11:42,715 you have to figure out how to get 320 00:11:42,715 --> 00:11:44,955 folks on enough of the same page that 321 00:11:44,955 --> 00:11:48,075 they can work together. And sometimes that has 322 00:11:48,075 --> 00:11:50,634 to be by fiat and sometimes it's through 323 00:11:50,634 --> 00:11:53,399 compromise. But, you know, I think like 324 00:11:53,860 --> 00:11:55,639 and he even says here 325 00:11:56,179 --> 00:11:58,420 that, you know, these kinds of mitigations are 326 00:11:58,420 --> 00:12:00,820 only a second best solution, and we should 327 00:12:00,820 --> 00:12:03,559 always prefer solving the people problem instead. 328 00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:06,024 I I wanna, you know, double click on 329 00:12:06,024 --> 00:12:08,285 that and say yes, yes, yes. 330 00:12:08,745 --> 00:12:10,745 But then he also says most hard problems 331 00:12:10,745 --> 00:12:12,745 in software development are people problems. And I 332 00:12:12,745 --> 00:12:15,404 think that's been my experience in general, 333 00:12:15,945 --> 00:12:19,245 that ultimately most hard problems boil down to 334 00:12:19,305 --> 00:12:20,205 people problems. 335 00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:23,899 And, you know, sometimes we can solve them 336 00:12:23,899 --> 00:12:27,019 with systems and structures and organizational structures, and 337 00:12:27,019 --> 00:12:29,120 then sometimes we have to solve them like 338 00:12:29,660 --> 00:12:31,120 the old fashioned way. 339 00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:33,919 Face to face and having a conversation, and 340 00:12:34,194 --> 00:12:36,674 and sometimes, you know, like, sorry, we're not 341 00:12:36,674 --> 00:12:37,875 gonna do it your way. We're gonna do 342 00:12:37,875 --> 00:12:38,615 it this way. 343 00:12:39,714 --> 00:12:41,394 And we all have to be adult enough 344 00:12:41,394 --> 00:12:43,254 to, like, manage. So 345 00:12:43,714 --> 00:12:45,714 it's, it's but it's it's never a one 346 00:12:45,714 --> 00:12:47,495 size fits all answer either. 347 00:12:48,259 --> 00:12:50,200 So it's interesting that you say that because 348 00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:52,440 I'm not convinced that all problems are 349 00:12:52,980 --> 00:12:55,460 strictly people problems. They are I don't think 350 00:12:55,460 --> 00:12:58,259 they are. They're people problems in the sense 351 00:12:58,259 --> 00:12:58,759 that 352 00:12:59,220 --> 00:13:00,440 there are trade offs, 353 00:13:00,785 --> 00:13:03,125 and everyone wants to make different trade offs. 354 00:13:03,665 --> 00:13:04,804 Mhmm. Right? 355 00:13:05,345 --> 00:13:08,458 And so it's it's this 356 00:13:09,264 --> 00:13:10,245 doing the modularization 357 00:13:11,024 --> 00:13:13,524 does help different people make different trade offs. 358 00:13:13,665 --> 00:13:15,299 If they want to make different trade offs, 359 00:13:15,459 --> 00:13:17,459 have at it. You're within your own little 360 00:13:17,459 --> 00:13:20,039 bounded world. Given I can define it 361 00:13:20,419 --> 00:13:22,580 in a very clean way and this goes 362 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:25,139 back to interaction surfaces and the depth of 363 00:13:25,139 --> 00:13:27,539 those surfaces and and how they and how 364 00:13:27,539 --> 00:13:28,339 they work together 365 00:13:29,184 --> 00:13:31,504 So long as you can actually define it 366 00:13:31,504 --> 00:13:32,245 in a way 367 00:13:32,625 --> 00:13:33,125 where 368 00:13:34,144 --> 00:13:36,004 it is its own little thing, 369 00:13:36,625 --> 00:13:37,605 you're all good. 370 00:13:38,545 --> 00:13:40,545 The problem, as you say, Yvonne, is when 371 00:13:40,545 --> 00:13:41,524 things get messy, 372 00:13:42,144 --> 00:13:44,004 when you can't, like, 373 00:13:45,059 --> 00:13:47,299 you just can't solve it by dividing it 374 00:13:47,299 --> 00:13:48,120 any further. 375 00:13:48,659 --> 00:13:50,899 You have to solve the people problem. You 376 00:13:50,899 --> 00:13:52,519 have to solve the the conflicting 377 00:13:53,539 --> 00:13:55,480 ideas and the conflicting information 378 00:13:55,860 --> 00:13:58,715 sets and the conflicting ways of of someone 379 00:13:58,715 --> 00:14:00,254 trying to solve this problem. 380 00:14:00,634 --> 00:14:02,495 Yeah. I think I've seen some organizations, 381 00:14:03,434 --> 00:14:05,375 not not so much at a software development 382 00:14:05,434 --> 00:14:08,315 level, but for example, a company will have 383 00:14:08,315 --> 00:14:10,254 three or four different lines of business. 384 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,799 And one line of business will have one 385 00:14:13,799 --> 00:14:16,519 CRM system. And another line of business will 386 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:18,299 have another CRM system. 387 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:20,759 And then all of a sudden as an 388 00:14:20,759 --> 00:14:21,259 organization, 389 00:14:21,799 --> 00:14:23,339 you don't have a unified 390 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:25,419 record for your customer 391 00:14:26,174 --> 00:14:29,534 to know everything that customer is using across 392 00:14:29,534 --> 00:14:30,754 your entire business. 393 00:14:31,294 --> 00:14:33,634 To me, that is a 394 00:14:34,095 --> 00:14:34,595 modularization 395 00:14:35,294 --> 00:14:38,815 solution that's gone too far because you've segmented 396 00:14:38,815 --> 00:14:40,254 your data in a way that it's no 397 00:14:40,254 --> 00:14:41,860 longer as useful as it could be for 398 00:14:41,860 --> 00:14:43,620 the business. And so those are the things, 399 00:14:43,620 --> 00:14:45,240 those are the trade offs of modularization 400 00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:48,019 you have to think about and determine whether 401 00:14:48,019 --> 00:14:50,259 or not like, hey, is is are these 402 00:14:50,259 --> 00:14:51,879 hard breaks here and letting 403 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:54,340 all these teams or encouraging these teams to 404 00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:55,080 work independently? 405 00:14:55,460 --> 00:14:56,580 Are we still gonna be able to get 406 00:14:56,580 --> 00:14:57,644 where we need to go? 407 00:14:59,004 --> 00:15:00,925 Again, that's not as much a software development 408 00:15:00,925 --> 00:15:02,764 problem, but, you know, what if what if 409 00:15:02,764 --> 00:15:04,684 you got one team using one messaging bus 410 00:15:04,684 --> 00:15:06,845 and another team using a different messaging bus, 411 00:15:06,845 --> 00:15:08,125 and then all of a sudden we have 412 00:15:08,125 --> 00:15:09,884 two different ones that we have to maintain 413 00:15:09,884 --> 00:15:11,820 and two different license agreements, and 414 00:15:12,139 --> 00:15:13,039 you you know, like, 415 00:15:13,419 --> 00:15:15,899 it it gets it gets messy. So those 416 00:15:15,899 --> 00:15:17,740 are the those are the trade offs for 417 00:15:17,740 --> 00:15:19,519 modularization you have to think about. 418 00:15:19,980 --> 00:15:21,980 Yeah. And and you can go farther than 419 00:15:21,980 --> 00:15:23,740 that. You can actually say things like, 420 00:15:26,684 --> 00:15:29,725 testing platforms. Who does fuzz? Who doesn't do 421 00:15:29,725 --> 00:15:32,304 fuzz? Who does integration? Who does system? 422 00:15:32,764 --> 00:15:35,664 Those are places where things can get messy. 423 00:15:35,884 --> 00:15:36,384 And 424 00:15:36,845 --> 00:15:37,345 even 425 00:15:37,970 --> 00:15:39,430 the tools that are used, 426 00:15:39,809 --> 00:15:42,550 languages that are used, compilers that are used, 427 00:15:42,850 --> 00:15:45,889 all of this stuff gets really it's very 428 00:15:45,889 --> 00:15:46,870 much a struggle 429 00:15:47,170 --> 00:15:49,830 to figure out what the right thing is. 430 00:15:50,294 --> 00:15:51,034 I'm thinking 431 00:15:51,815 --> 00:15:52,955 of being in an environment 432 00:15:53,414 --> 00:15:53,914 where 433 00:15:54,294 --> 00:15:54,794 corporate 434 00:15:55,575 --> 00:15:56,714 VPs and above 435 00:15:57,014 --> 00:15:59,274 say, I want to use this tool 436 00:15:59,575 --> 00:16:02,315 because it really wraps up all the projects 437 00:16:02,695 --> 00:16:04,875 into a nice visual representation. 438 00:16:06,230 --> 00:16:07,750 But then the people actually working on the 439 00:16:07,750 --> 00:16:10,149 projects go, yeah. But that tool doesn't have 440 00:16:10,149 --> 00:16:10,649 any 441 00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:13,129 doesn't have any detailed information. 442 00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:15,589 I can't It doesn't actually help us manage 443 00:16:15,589 --> 00:16:17,909 our project. It doesn't actually. That's exactly right. 444 00:16:17,909 --> 00:16:19,190 And so then you end up with two 445 00:16:19,190 --> 00:16:21,190 different tools, and you have people who are 446 00:16:21,190 --> 00:16:23,825 doing, basically, just spending their time 447 00:16:24,605 --> 00:16:25,585 putting status 448 00:16:26,045 --> 00:16:28,065 between two project tools 449 00:16:28,524 --> 00:16:29,024 because 450 00:16:29,804 --> 00:16:31,804 because you have two different people who want 451 00:16:31,804 --> 00:16:33,644 two different things out of the tool. Because 452 00:16:33,644 --> 00:16:34,625 we couldn't agree. 453 00:16:35,004 --> 00:16:37,425 Right. Exactly. Because we couldn't agree. 454 00:16:38,059 --> 00:16:40,299 Yep. That's exactly right. So, yeah, I I 455 00:16:40,299 --> 00:16:41,440 think that is all 456 00:16:41,980 --> 00:16:44,320 very, very valid and very much 457 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:46,639 a part of the real world 458 00:16:47,019 --> 00:16:49,360 that we see. I don't know. Any other 459 00:16:49,740 --> 00:16:50,960 thoughts on 460 00:16:51,704 --> 00:16:52,204 modularization 461 00:16:52,584 --> 00:16:54,764 to solve people problems? I'm telling 462 00:16:55,304 --> 00:16:56,365 you, padded cells 463 00:16:59,544 --> 00:17:01,784 Once you start talking about straight jackets, Russ, 464 00:17:01,784 --> 00:17:03,004 you've gone too far. 465 00:17:04,869 --> 00:17:06,410 People still have to be able to type. 466 00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:07,690 Crooked jackets. 467 00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:09,210 Okay. 468 00:17:12,470 --> 00:17:14,490 Crooked jackets and How about retirement? 469 00:17:14,789 --> 00:17:17,349 That's sounding better and better every day. It 470 00:17:17,349 --> 00:17:19,589 really it really Well, unless you've looked at 471 00:17:19,589 --> 00:17:22,525 the market lately, but that's another conversation. Yeah. 472 00:17:22,525 --> 00:17:24,444 That's It's not the right topic for this 473 00:17:24,444 --> 00:17:24,944 podcast. 474 00:17:26,525 --> 00:17:28,464 Yeah. I know. I know. And 475 00:17:29,164 --> 00:17:29,984 I don't know. 476 00:17:30,684 --> 00:17:32,765 We're on a quest to anyway, whatever. It's 477 00:17:32,765 --> 00:17:33,984 another entire problem. 478 00:17:34,845 --> 00:17:35,345 So 479 00:17:35,659 --> 00:17:37,019 the next thing we're going to talk about 480 00:17:37,019 --> 00:17:37,519 is 481 00:17:39,579 --> 00:17:41,500 this comes up in Ireland. But it's actually 482 00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:42,720 coming up in a lot of 483 00:17:43,179 --> 00:17:43,679 towns 484 00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:45,039 all over the world, 485 00:17:45,419 --> 00:17:46,399 which is that 486 00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:48,000 the energy draw 487 00:17:48,845 --> 00:17:50,384 for building data centers 488 00:17:50,684 --> 00:17:51,744 is so great 489 00:17:52,125 --> 00:17:54,924 that cities are now saying, and countries are 490 00:17:54,924 --> 00:17:55,744 now saying, 491 00:17:56,285 --> 00:17:58,525 feel free to build your data center anywhere 492 00:17:58,525 --> 00:18:00,605 you want as long as you provide your 493 00:18:00,605 --> 00:18:03,005 own energy. Is anyone scared by this? Is 494 00:18:03,005 --> 00:18:05,059 this like a I don't think I'm scared 495 00:18:05,059 --> 00:18:06,900 by it. I think it's a pretty natural 496 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:09,779 reaction to, you know, in most places, power 497 00:18:09,779 --> 00:18:10,599 is a shared 498 00:18:11,059 --> 00:18:12,039 public utility 499 00:18:12,420 --> 00:18:14,259 and to have a private entity come and 500 00:18:14,259 --> 00:18:16,660 gobble up like way more than anybody ever 501 00:18:16,660 --> 00:18:17,400 has before 502 00:18:18,075 --> 00:18:19,914 and pay the same rate that everyone else 503 00:18:19,914 --> 00:18:20,414 pays. 504 00:18:20,794 --> 00:18:23,194 Or increase the cost because now the demand 505 00:18:23,194 --> 00:18:24,174 is so much higher. 506 00:18:24,474 --> 00:18:26,974 Sure. Sure. And then that's that's a typical 507 00:18:27,194 --> 00:18:28,335 a typical reaction. 508 00:18:29,274 --> 00:18:31,515 Yeah. Yeah. No. I think I think the 509 00:18:31,515 --> 00:18:33,859 I think the reaction is reasonable. I don't 510 00:18:33,940 --> 00:18:35,460 I mean, the power's got to come from 511 00:18:35,460 --> 00:18:37,460 somewhere and asking the people to provide it 512 00:18:37,460 --> 00:18:38,980 that are doing most of the consumption. Like, 513 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:40,500 I don't even know do I don't know 514 00:18:40,579 --> 00:18:42,579 do you all know? Like, how many houses 515 00:18:42,579 --> 00:18:44,819 does it take to consume what a typical 516 00:18:44,819 --> 00:18:47,539 data center consumes? It's probably a massive number 517 00:18:47,539 --> 00:18:48,855 of houses. Right? Like 518 00:18:49,174 --> 00:18:50,394 Well, so so 519 00:18:51,015 --> 00:18:53,115 being in the process of building, again, 520 00:18:53,815 --> 00:18:55,335 seems like this is what I've been doing 521 00:18:55,335 --> 00:18:57,115 with my life is trying to build houses. 522 00:18:57,734 --> 00:19:00,295 I know when I fill built the first 523 00:19:00,295 --> 00:19:00,795 house 524 00:19:01,279 --> 00:19:02,579 that that we built, 525 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:05,460 that 526 00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:07,299 the 527 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,720 builder was like, let's just put it put 528 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,039 in two fifty k w and be done 529 00:19:13,039 --> 00:19:15,865 with it, because that'll be big enough. Okay. 530 00:19:15,865 --> 00:19:18,044 Well, the builder I talked to this house 531 00:19:18,265 --> 00:19:19,244 has already said, 532 00:19:20,105 --> 00:19:21,964 oh, dollars 400 to $4.50 533 00:19:22,345 --> 00:19:24,284 is pretty average for a house now. 534 00:19:24,904 --> 00:19:27,164 Now, in terms of what that means 535 00:19:27,625 --> 00:19:28,845 from a data center, 536 00:19:29,509 --> 00:19:31,269 a lot of data center racks are, from 537 00:19:31,269 --> 00:19:32,789 what I understand, 125 538 00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:33,289 kw. 539 00:19:34,069 --> 00:19:36,149 And they'll get as big as two fifty 540 00:19:36,149 --> 00:19:37,263 kw. So 541 00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:39,750 For a single rack. Yeah. For a single 542 00:19:39,750 --> 00:19:42,329 rack. So if you're and that's not counting 543 00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:43,289 air conditioning. 544 00:19:43,954 --> 00:19:46,214 That's not counting environmentals. That's just 545 00:19:46,914 --> 00:19:48,454 feeding the processors 546 00:19:49,394 --> 00:19:51,174 sitting there in the rack. 547 00:19:51,714 --> 00:19:54,755 And so if that is if those are 548 00:19:54,755 --> 00:19:55,255 correct 549 00:19:56,434 --> 00:19:56,934 numbers, 550 00:19:57,440 --> 00:19:58,660 which I believe they're 551 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,059 they're rough. They're in the rough territory. 552 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,000 Even if you're talking about 400 k w, 553 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,940 four fifty k w to a house now, 554 00:20:06,079 --> 00:20:08,559 which seems ridiculous to me, but okay. I 555 00:20:08,559 --> 00:20:10,845 mean, something somebody brought up the other day. 556 00:20:10,924 --> 00:20:13,164 We all went to LED bulbs and Energy 557 00:20:13,164 --> 00:20:13,664 Star 558 00:20:13,964 --> 00:20:17,085 televisions and everything else, and yet our power 559 00:20:17,085 --> 00:20:18,625 bills keep going up. 560 00:20:19,325 --> 00:20:20,144 And yet, 561 00:20:20,525 --> 00:20:22,865 somehow or another, we keep increasing 562 00:20:23,244 --> 00:20:25,484 the size of the main panel in all 563 00:20:25,484 --> 00:20:27,589 new houses. And when I was growing up, 564 00:20:27,890 --> 00:20:29,250 the house I grew up in had a 565 00:20:29,250 --> 00:20:30,369 25 566 00:20:30,369 --> 00:20:30,869 kw. 567 00:20:32,049 --> 00:20:33,569 A hundred it was either a hundred or 568 00:20:33,569 --> 00:20:34,789 a 25 kw, 569 00:20:35,809 --> 00:20:36,309 panel. 570 00:20:36,930 --> 00:20:38,450 And so we built a little place up 571 00:20:38,450 --> 00:20:40,494 on the on the on the lake, and 572 00:20:40,494 --> 00:20:42,494 we had about a hundred k w in 573 00:20:42,494 --> 00:20:43,634 that place on the lake. 574 00:20:44,174 --> 00:20:45,134 400 575 00:20:45,134 --> 00:20:46,274 w for a house? 576 00:20:47,054 --> 00:20:47,554 Like, 577 00:20:48,174 --> 00:20:49,234 what has happened 578 00:20:49,934 --> 00:20:50,434 seriously? 579 00:20:51,214 --> 00:20:53,054 Our house is that much bigger. What's going 580 00:20:53,054 --> 00:20:55,490 on here? But even if that size, even 581 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:58,049 if 400 w for a house, you start 582 00:20:58,049 --> 00:21:00,849 talking about 200 k w per rack. You're 583 00:21:00,849 --> 00:21:02,869 talking about a house every other rack. 584 00:21:03,569 --> 00:21:05,890 How many racks can you put in one 585 00:21:05,890 --> 00:21:06,470 of these 586 00:21:07,424 --> 00:21:09,985 data centers? I I Found a I found 587 00:21:09,985 --> 00:21:11,605 an article, quick Google, 588 00:21:13,105 --> 00:21:14,005 says that, 589 00:21:14,785 --> 00:21:15,285 basically, 590 00:21:16,225 --> 00:21:18,005 data center, and it doesn't provide 591 00:21:18,305 --> 00:21:20,705 details here, but can consume the same amount 592 00:21:20,705 --> 00:21:22,940 of energy as 50,000 593 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:23,660 homes. 594 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:25,900 That's a crazy big number. 595 00:21:27,319 --> 00:21:28,119 Yeah, it says, 596 00:21:28,679 --> 00:21:31,960 one one megawatt equals 200 homes is the 597 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,880 math that they're doing. So it's it's assuming 598 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:34,839 a 250 599 00:21:34,839 --> 00:21:35,339 megawatt, 600 00:21:35,931 --> 00:21:39,265 data center. K w. Oh, 250 megawatt data 601 00:21:39,265 --> 00:21:41,345 center. And they're assuming they're assuming like a 602 00:21:41,345 --> 00:21:43,265 200 k w or two fifty k w 603 00:21:43,265 --> 00:21:43,765 house. 604 00:21:44,384 --> 00:21:46,464 Sounds right. So so so you can play 605 00:21:46,464 --> 00:21:48,865 with those numbers. Yeah. Yep. It's a lot 606 00:21:48,865 --> 00:21:51,039 of that's a lot of impact for, you 607 00:21:51,039 --> 00:21:54,720 know, 50,000 people, 50,000 lives being, not even 608 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,000 lives. I mean, that's you're in the hundreds 609 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,519 of thousands of lives probably at their at 610 00:21:57,519 --> 00:22:00,480 their Yeah. 50,000 homes is probably what, you 611 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,839 know, 7,500,000 612 00:22:01,839 --> 00:22:03,220 people. Yeah. Right. 613 00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:05,119 Right. Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah. It's a 614 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:05,619 lot. 615 00:22:06,065 --> 00:22:07,525 So, yeah, it's it's 616 00:22:08,065 --> 00:22:10,244 wow. It's a lot. So it's really not 617 00:22:10,384 --> 00:22:13,664 amazing to me. And this now, Ireland has 618 00:22:13,664 --> 00:22:15,924 said, basically, overall, in the country. 619 00:22:16,704 --> 00:22:18,384 If you build a new data center, bring 620 00:22:18,384 --> 00:22:19,204 your own power. 621 00:22:20,759 --> 00:22:22,539 So that's like a countrywide 622 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:24,779 thing. And then, 623 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,279 Well, the only so this this will have 624 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:32,519 a centralizing effect because how many people can 625 00:22:32,519 --> 00:22:33,820 actually bring their own power? 626 00:22:34,784 --> 00:22:36,644 How many people need data center connectivity? 627 00:22:37,024 --> 00:22:38,304 That how many of those that need data 628 00:22:38,304 --> 00:22:40,244 center connectivity actually can do it? 629 00:22:40,944 --> 00:22:43,105 None of them And and that that's interesting 630 00:22:43,105 --> 00:22:45,744 definition too because I've seen customers define a 631 00:22:45,744 --> 00:22:48,304 data center as a closet with a rack 632 00:22:48,384 --> 00:22:50,809 a single rack in it. Right? Like, what 633 00:22:51,250 --> 00:22:52,869 in but with this definition, 634 00:22:53,170 --> 00:22:55,990 what constitutes a data center? Like, you know, 635 00:22:56,529 --> 00:22:58,390 how much power does it have to pull? 636 00:22:59,009 --> 00:23:01,250 Because, you know, a a single rack is 637 00:23:01,250 --> 00:23:03,330 manageable. Right? I mean, there are lots of 638 00:23:03,330 --> 00:23:04,769 folks that we know that have them in 639 00:23:04,769 --> 00:23:05,414 their basements. 640 00:23:05,815 --> 00:23:06,315 Right? 641 00:23:07,335 --> 00:23:08,775 In in their homes. But That's why they 642 00:23:08,775 --> 00:23:11,015 have four four hundred k w power fees 643 00:23:11,015 --> 00:23:13,815 to their house. Right. Right. Right. Well, like 644 00:23:13,815 --> 00:23:16,055 even companies like Equinix though, are they gonna 645 00:23:16,055 --> 00:23:17,575 build their own power plants? I don't know. 646 00:23:17,575 --> 00:23:19,095 It seems like a reach for a company 647 00:23:19,095 --> 00:23:19,755 like them. 648 00:23:20,740 --> 00:23:22,500 Well, I think that's part of why we've 649 00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:25,079 seen, you know, a lot of our hyperscalers 650 00:23:26,099 --> 00:23:29,960 announce partnerships with small form factor nuclear power 651 00:23:30,019 --> 00:23:31,779 companies. And I think that'll be a new 652 00:23:31,779 --> 00:23:33,079 industry that we see, 653 00:23:33,474 --> 00:23:35,554 you know, crop up in the next decade. 654 00:23:35,554 --> 00:23:37,335 We will have small form factor, 655 00:23:37,714 --> 00:23:40,595 you know, nuclear power where, you know, this 656 00:23:40,595 --> 00:23:42,194 data center is gonna have its own little 657 00:23:42,194 --> 00:23:43,654 mini power plant 658 00:23:44,115 --> 00:23:45,494 right right next door 659 00:23:46,130 --> 00:23:48,049 that's gonna gonna provide the power. 660 00:23:48,690 --> 00:23:50,369 And it it it it will be even 661 00:23:50,369 --> 00:23:51,190 more interesting 662 00:23:51,970 --> 00:23:54,369 if if those facilities are able then to 663 00:23:54,369 --> 00:23:54,869 start 664 00:23:55,250 --> 00:23:57,509 selling that power back to 665 00:23:57,970 --> 00:23:59,350 the local power grid. 666 00:23:59,894 --> 00:24:02,055 Right? Because it's, we we see that now 667 00:24:02,055 --> 00:24:04,055 with with homes that have solar. You you 668 00:24:04,055 --> 00:24:05,815 you install solar, and then you can sell 669 00:24:05,815 --> 00:24:06,394 that power, 670 00:24:07,015 --> 00:24:09,335 you know, back to your local grid. So 671 00:24:09,335 --> 00:24:11,734 I think, you know, we're we're gonna see 672 00:24:11,734 --> 00:24:12,474 some innovation 673 00:24:13,150 --> 00:24:15,950 in what the power industry looks like in 674 00:24:15,950 --> 00:24:18,210 the next decade. And then it's necessary. 675 00:24:18,509 --> 00:24:19,410 Right? We can't 676 00:24:19,789 --> 00:24:21,950 continue to run all these GPUs and do 677 00:24:21,950 --> 00:24:24,210 all this fun AI stuff without it. 678 00:24:24,829 --> 00:24:27,505 Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I think it's absolutely 679 00:24:27,505 --> 00:24:29,924 gonna happen. And I think you'll also see, 680 00:24:30,144 --> 00:24:32,404 as you said, Tom, it's not just centralizing. 681 00:24:33,345 --> 00:24:34,725 I would actually say 682 00:24:35,505 --> 00:24:36,144 it is 683 00:24:36,785 --> 00:24:38,325 you know, if you go back 684 00:24:38,785 --> 00:24:40,805 a hundred years in The United States, 685 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:43,640 whatever it is, take your pick of of 686 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,420 however many years in The United States, 687 00:24:46,279 --> 00:24:47,259 every kid 688 00:24:47,799 --> 00:24:50,840 knew the name of every river because there 689 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,660 weren't roads. 690 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,400 And so every major city was on a 691 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:55,900 river. 692 00:24:56,444 --> 00:24:59,244 And every you know, that's how you got 693 00:24:59,244 --> 00:25:01,345 things from point a to point b, 694 00:25:01,724 --> 00:25:02,544 was rivers 695 00:25:02,845 --> 00:25:03,345 and 696 00:25:03,804 --> 00:25:05,505 lock systems and canals. 697 00:25:05,964 --> 00:25:08,204 So everybody knew where they were. And they 698 00:25:08,204 --> 00:25:09,884 knew if they followed this river up, they 699 00:25:09,884 --> 00:25:11,980 would get that city and that city. Well, 700 00:25:11,980 --> 00:25:12,720 we're gonna start seeing, 701 00:25:13,099 --> 00:25:14,559 I think, to some degree, 702 00:25:15,659 --> 00:25:18,480 data centers needing to be located 703 00:25:19,419 --> 00:25:19,919 near 704 00:25:20,859 --> 00:25:22,779 or in a place where they can build 705 00:25:22,779 --> 00:25:24,859 their own nuclear power plants, their own mini 706 00:25:24,859 --> 00:25:27,674 nukes and stuff like this, which is gonna 707 00:25:27,674 --> 00:25:29,855 come down to not just centralization 708 00:25:30,154 --> 00:25:32,634 in terms of who can build them, but 709 00:25:32,634 --> 00:25:33,934 where they can be built. 710 00:25:35,195 --> 00:25:36,795 And and and that will a lot of 711 00:25:36,795 --> 00:25:38,414 that will depend on, 712 00:25:39,220 --> 00:25:42,839 countries and states and how they regulate 713 00:25:43,380 --> 00:25:45,700 their power industry. It's you know, you we 714 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:47,859 look at, for example, the Equinix model of 715 00:25:47,859 --> 00:25:48,599 data centers 716 00:25:48,980 --> 00:25:51,859 that they really built out those data centers 717 00:25:51,859 --> 00:25:52,359 around 718 00:25:52,894 --> 00:25:56,174 existing communication networks. Right? And what what we're 719 00:25:56,174 --> 00:25:57,154 seeing now 720 00:25:57,534 --> 00:26:00,274 is that the rate limit limiting factor isn't 721 00:26:00,414 --> 00:26:00,914 necessarily 722 00:26:01,214 --> 00:26:03,134 I mean, the availability of connectivity is still 723 00:26:03,134 --> 00:26:04,115 incredibly important, 724 00:26:04,654 --> 00:26:06,595 but power is becoming 725 00:26:07,289 --> 00:26:08,750 a much more, 726 00:26:11,289 --> 00:26:14,490 what's the word? A A gain. Unavailable resource. 727 00:26:14,490 --> 00:26:16,730 More of a gain. It's yeah. So it's 728 00:26:16,730 --> 00:26:19,070 interesting that you said about bandwidth because 729 00:26:19,674 --> 00:26:21,434 back in the day, we had 10 gig 730 00:26:21,434 --> 00:26:21,934 links. 731 00:26:22,474 --> 00:26:23,994 And we thought we were hot when we 732 00:26:23,994 --> 00:26:26,394 had a hundred gig. Right? Oh, we got 733 00:26:26,394 --> 00:26:28,095 a hundred gig across the country. 734 00:26:28,555 --> 00:26:30,394 I was reading the other day that IBM, 735 00:26:30,394 --> 00:26:33,695 I think it was, just pushed a 1.6 736 00:26:33,755 --> 00:26:34,255 terabit 737 00:26:35,009 --> 00:26:35,910 optical link 738 00:26:36,289 --> 00:26:37,589 between two cities. 739 00:26:38,609 --> 00:26:41,009 We're not talking across a data center. We're 740 00:26:41,009 --> 00:26:41,910 talking across 741 00:26:42,930 --> 00:26:45,509 tens, fifties, hundreds of miles. 742 00:26:46,450 --> 00:26:48,450 So just at the time when we're starting 743 00:26:48,450 --> 00:26:50,150 to see power become this 744 00:26:50,785 --> 00:26:53,765 gating thing, we're actually at the same time 745 00:26:54,144 --> 00:26:54,644 seeing 746 00:26:55,664 --> 00:26:57,605 data speeds and optics 747 00:26:57,904 --> 00:27:00,085 be not being the gating thing anymore. 748 00:27:01,345 --> 00:27:03,345 It's like you you can put data a 749 00:27:03,345 --> 00:27:04,565 lot of places now. 750 00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:08,309 And just like inside of a a physical 751 00:27:08,309 --> 00:27:09,210 piece of infrastructure, 752 00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:12,549 as technology evolves, you move the bottleneck. Right? 753 00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:14,789 Sometimes it's your storage, sometimes it's your RAM, 754 00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:16,710 sometimes it's your bus speed, sometimes it's your 755 00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:18,970 processor speed. Like, there are all these different 756 00:27:19,674 --> 00:27:21,775 areas where latency can happen. 757 00:27:22,795 --> 00:27:25,535 Just like the bottleneck moves around there, 758 00:27:25,914 --> 00:27:29,214 we're seeing in our physical infrastructure the bottlenecks 759 00:27:29,275 --> 00:27:31,980 moving. Now, it doesn't move as quickly, The 760 00:27:31,980 --> 00:27:33,599 innovation doesn't happen as fast, 761 00:27:34,299 --> 00:27:37,119 but it's it's the same process. Right? 762 00:27:37,660 --> 00:27:39,980 And right now, it's power and is probably 763 00:27:39,980 --> 00:27:41,679 gonna be that for a decade 764 00:27:42,059 --> 00:27:43,679 or two, I would suspect. 765 00:27:44,424 --> 00:27:46,184 And then a question that always comes up 766 00:27:46,184 --> 00:27:47,644 when you talk about this is, 767 00:27:48,025 --> 00:27:50,424 so let's say everybody moves their data centers 768 00:27:50,424 --> 00:27:52,505 out someplace where they can build their own 769 00:27:52,505 --> 00:27:53,005 nukes 770 00:27:53,704 --> 00:27:54,204 and 771 00:27:54,904 --> 00:27:57,224 uses these high speed links. Now we have 772 00:27:57,224 --> 00:27:59,005 all these old data center buildings 773 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:01,880 that we've built in the middle of these 774 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,640 communities. And we'll just turn them into peddlers 775 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,480 malls. It'll be fine. Because they're gonna be 776 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,400 all the old Walmarts all over the country. 777 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,660 They'll only be open at Halloween and Christmas 778 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,799 for for decorations. Some some really cool, you 779 00:28:13,799 --> 00:28:16,674 know, apartments or some sort of new and, 780 00:28:16,674 --> 00:28:17,255 you know, 781 00:28:17,875 --> 00:28:19,494 new decor and industrialization 782 00:28:19,954 --> 00:28:20,454 of, 783 00:28:21,075 --> 00:28:23,634 you know, of of those spaces. They have 784 00:28:23,634 --> 00:28:24,615 plenty of cooling. 785 00:28:25,554 --> 00:28:26,054 Yeah. 786 00:28:26,434 --> 00:28:28,869 Industrial apartments. I like it. Yeah. The world 787 00:28:28,869 --> 00:28:30,250 is ugly enough. Thanks. 788 00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:36,069 I am oh my goodness. I saw this 789 00:28:36,069 --> 00:28:37,829 chart the other day showing the number of 790 00:28:37,829 --> 00:28:38,329 colors 791 00:28:38,789 --> 00:28:40,730 that are used by paint makers 792 00:28:42,105 --> 00:28:44,505 and, like, just how much color each paint 793 00:28:44,904 --> 00:28:46,444 each color paint they sell. 794 00:28:46,984 --> 00:28:48,045 And it's amazing 795 00:28:48,744 --> 00:28:50,585 that they go back a hundred, two hundred 796 00:28:50,585 --> 00:28:51,085 years, 797 00:28:51,704 --> 00:28:54,684 and the variety of paints they sold 798 00:28:55,210 --> 00:28:57,610 was so much broad much broader than what 799 00:28:57,610 --> 00:28:58,509 we sell today. 800 00:28:58,890 --> 00:28:59,390 Nowadays, 801 00:28:59,850 --> 00:29:01,710 almost everything they sell, 802 00:29:02,650 --> 00:29:05,210 50 80% of what they sell is, like, 803 00:29:05,210 --> 00:29:06,269 gray and white. 804 00:29:08,054 --> 00:29:09,674 Is there's very little red, 805 00:29:10,214 --> 00:29:11,595 there's almost no yellow, 806 00:29:11,894 --> 00:29:14,535 there's very little blue. Like, we become we 807 00:29:14,535 --> 00:29:16,315 become a monochrome world, 808 00:29:17,335 --> 00:29:19,275 and that's that's just a little weird. 809 00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:25,289 Yvonne's like, I'm sitting I don't know what 810 00:29:25,289 --> 00:29:27,309 to tell you. My house is blue 811 00:29:27,690 --> 00:29:28,190 and 812 00:29:28,490 --> 00:29:31,470 and and, kind of an off white, and 813 00:29:31,529 --> 00:29:33,554 blue is my favorite. So if if I 814 00:29:33,554 --> 00:29:35,075 would if I was gonna do any color 815 00:29:35,075 --> 00:29:37,474 palette, it'd probably be a monochrome blue. But, 816 00:29:37,474 --> 00:29:38,054 you know 817 00:29:38,674 --> 00:29:40,275 Or shade shades of blue. I'm not a 818 00:29:40,275 --> 00:29:41,875 fan of yellow. You can keep the yellow 819 00:29:41,875 --> 00:29:43,875 paint. I lived in a kitchen with yellow 820 00:29:43,875 --> 00:29:45,095 paint for ten years, 821 00:29:45,554 --> 00:29:48,240 which is my fault for not resolving in 822 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,920 a house once that had black and white 823 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:50,420 stripe, 824 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,619 one inch wide black and white stripe 825 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:54,420 wallpaper 826 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,019 in the kitchen. Mhmm. 827 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,580 And that lasted about two days. 828 00:30:02,755 --> 00:30:03,255 No. 829 00:30:03,714 --> 00:30:05,335 I'm not doing that. I'm sorry. 830 00:30:06,595 --> 00:30:09,335 So yeah. So anything else on this one? 831 00:30:10,914 --> 00:30:12,515 No. I think it's, I mean, we're gonna 832 00:30:12,515 --> 00:30:15,394 see, an an industry that that spawns up 833 00:30:15,394 --> 00:30:16,694 here around this problem. 834 00:30:17,315 --> 00:30:17,974 I think, 835 00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:21,750 you know, enterprises have a way of solving 836 00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:23,849 problems that get between them and their revenue, 837 00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:25,750 and I think this will be one of 838 00:30:25,750 --> 00:30:27,990 those. So, well, it'll be interesting to watch 839 00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:30,250 it and see what happens. Awesome. Okay. 840 00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:32,634 Well, I think I'm done. Unless you all 841 00:30:32,634 --> 00:30:33,934 wanna talk about something else. 842 00:30:34,714 --> 00:30:37,055 I'm good. Very good. Alright. Awesome. 843 00:30:38,555 --> 00:30:39,055 So, 844 00:30:40,714 --> 00:30:41,214 Tom, 845 00:30:43,115 --> 00:30:45,134 say it. LinkedIn. Okay. LinkedIn. 846 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:47,580 Yvonne. 847 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:50,440 Are you there? I've been a little quieter 848 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,940 on the socials lately, but still on LinkedIn 849 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:53,740 and, 850 00:30:54,359 --> 00:30:56,680 Twitter. Still gonna call it that. And, you 851 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,440 can also find me over on Blue Sky. 852 00:30:58,440 --> 00:30:59,100 But, yeah, 853 00:30:59,654 --> 00:31:00,154 mostly, 854 00:31:00,615 --> 00:31:02,375 LinkedIn these days. And you still have a 855 00:31:02,375 --> 00:31:04,215 blog going. Right? Or have you stopped kind 856 00:31:04,215 --> 00:31:05,994 of because construction's over? 857 00:31:06,654 --> 00:31:07,154 I 858 00:31:07,815 --> 00:31:09,115 I do. I do. 859 00:31:09,494 --> 00:31:11,505 It's been really busy at the day job, 860 00:31:11,505 --> 00:31:13,329 and so I haven't written as much, but 861 00:31:13,329 --> 00:31:14,609 I got a couple ideas I need to 862 00:31:14,609 --> 00:31:16,130 need to get down. Yeah. I have that 863 00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:16,789 same problem. 864 00:31:17,329 --> 00:31:20,369 Day job plus I'm recording I've recorded about 865 00:31:20,369 --> 00:31:22,450 fifteen hours of a new training series I'm 866 00:31:22,450 --> 00:31:23,269 working on. 867 00:31:23,730 --> 00:31:26,309 And, like, oh oh my gosh. I'm like, 868 00:31:27,555 --> 00:31:29,235 I'm gonna die now because I just have 869 00:31:29,235 --> 00:31:30,295 so much going on. 870 00:31:30,674 --> 00:31:31,815 But, you know, 871 00:31:32,275 --> 00:31:34,055 it's coming to the end of the semester. 872 00:31:34,835 --> 00:31:36,535 It's coming to the end of the recordings. 873 00:31:36,674 --> 00:31:38,755 Maybe I'll be more casual in the fall. 874 00:31:38,755 --> 00:31:39,414 Who knows? 875 00:31:40,115 --> 00:31:41,715 I always say that and then things come 876 00:31:41,715 --> 00:31:43,015 up and it never is. 877 00:31:43,339 --> 00:31:45,579 You have a way of filling your schedule 878 00:31:45,579 --> 00:31:46,559 with stuff to do 879 00:31:47,259 --> 00:31:49,180 and always staying too busy. So 880 00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:50,559 Thanks, Yvonne. 881 00:31:52,619 --> 00:31:54,779 I'm just saying. You're in charge of your 882 00:31:54,779 --> 00:31:55,759 schedule, Russ. 883 00:31:57,315 --> 00:31:59,335 I'm not sure that I am, actually. 884 00:31:59,875 --> 00:32:01,014 Okay. Alright. 885 00:32:02,034 --> 00:32:03,394 I won't argue with you on your own 886 00:32:03,394 --> 00:32:04,934 podcast. Not about that. 887 00:32:05,554 --> 00:32:07,234 I have given up on being in charge 888 00:32:07,234 --> 00:32:08,774 of my schedule. Alright. 889 00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:10,599 So I'm Russ White. You can always find 890 00:32:10,599 --> 00:32:12,619 me here at thehedge@rule11.tech 891 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:13,660 on LinkedIn 892 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:15,980 x 893 00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:17,420 at routing geek. 894 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,799 I don't know. Here and there. Whatever. You'll 895 00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:21,960 find me if you're looking for me. We 896 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,720 know that we live in an attention driven 897 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:24,220 economy. 898 00:32:24,544 --> 00:32:26,144 We thank you for listening all the way 899 00:32:26,144 --> 00:32:27,444 to the bitter end 900 00:32:28,224 --> 00:32:30,085 of this podcast. I'm not bitter. 901 00:32:31,904 --> 00:32:32,404 And, 902 00:32:33,345 --> 00:32:35,505 we will we're again, we appreciate you listening, 903 00:32:35,505 --> 00:32:37,044 and we will catch you next time. 904 00:32:47,299 --> 00:32:47,799 Time.