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Join us as we gather around the hedge,

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where we dig into technology, business, and culture

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with the finest minds in computer networking.

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Hello, Tom.

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Hi, Russ. You have a jacket in front

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of the books now. You did that so

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I couldn't see the empty spaces.

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Actually, I didn't, but now that you pointed

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out, yes, I did.

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That is so crazy. I'm forever here.

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I'm sorry. No. Go ahead. That's my my

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oldest son's first suit jacket, actually. So Oh,

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okay. I'm pretty proud of him. Wow. Wow.

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It's a lot older than the last time

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I was there.

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Yeah. That should tell you that I need

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to come to Austin more often and, like,

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hang out and do stuff. I have no

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travel budget, so it's hard. So today, we

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are joined by Jamie Schwartz. Right?

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Yep. Okay. And where are you physically, Jamie?

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I'm in Hastings On Hudson. It's the first

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small town north of New York City.

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Oh, okay. Cool. So I've probably driven through

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it several times.

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Without even knowing it, probably. Without even knowing

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it, probably.

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Yeah. I used to live in,

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Northwestern New Jersey,

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and we would go up to the apple

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orchard orchids in orchards in, Northern New York

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around Halloween type stuff and go get,

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It is always funny how people say, yeah.

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You're you're in Upstate. I'm like, I literally

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I touch Yonkers. Like, I could drive to

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the city in twelve minutes. Yeah. You're Upstate.

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That's Yeah. No. Yeah. Right. Right. But I'm

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saying I drove through to get Upstate, probably.

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Yeah. No, you are. You're probably still in

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Westchester County. We go there all the time

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ourselves. And I grew up in Chappaqua, which

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is even closer to that. That's where the

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Clintons moved to in the early 2000s, and

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it just took over. But it's we had

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three horse farms when I was a kid

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in that town. Oh, wow. That's really cool.

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Yeah. People don't realize it, but

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Bronx and the Queens,

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those were the names of the farms.

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Like,

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you know?

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When my dad was born, there was still

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a farm in Manhattan.

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Yeah. Yeah. That's that's, like, crazy. So alright.

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So we're talking about NFTs.

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And,

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so NFTs are an interesting area of basically

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around similar to in the same realm of,

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the idea of Bitcoin

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or

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the area of crypto based, not really currency

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in this case,

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but artifacts.

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Right? So maybe we should start there. Like,

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what is an NFT?

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Where what what do we do with this

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thing?

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Well, the thing that combines all of that

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together is the technology behind it all, which

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is blockchain.

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But a non fungible token, which stands for

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an NFT, is a unique object. And a

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fungible token is an interchangeable one like Bitcoin.

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So we're really just talking about

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unique products, non fungible tokens, versus

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exchangeable fiat currency,

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fungible tokens.

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Okay.

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So when you say non fungible or fungible,

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you mean you can still buy or sell

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an NFT. You can still change hands with

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it. Right.

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You can buy or sell both of them.

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The thing is a fungible token is exchangeable

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because it's a a dollar is a fungible

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token. Yeah. If I give you a dollar

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and you give me a dollar, nothing happened.

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It's the exact same worth even if yours

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is torn and mine isn't. But if I

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have a painting,

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it's a one of one. It's a unique

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thing. So you'll be like, okay, what's this

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worth? Whatever the market will bear. Okay. Because

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something's a unique thing.

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Okay.

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So if we think about NFTs,

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can you give us some examples of where

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NFTs

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are used in the real world

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or the virtual world, however you wanna put

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it.

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Because,

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you know, so what kinds of things are

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people doing with NFTs?

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So an NFT is just a receipt.

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It isn't the media or the object itself.

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It's just the unbreakable, immutable blockchain proof, crypto

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proof receipt that says that thing is unique.

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So it doesn't have to be for Bored

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Ape, those or CryptoPunk or all those other

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pieces of art that people say, okay, well,

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this is a non fungible thing I can

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own. If you have, anything that you buy

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clothing,

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high end food that has already been put

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on the blockchain,

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which is just a decentralized ledger,

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then,

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it will be a non fungible token because

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it's unique. You can say that your computer,

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if we both have an Intel Pentium computer

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with the same exact things on it, you

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say it would be fungible.

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But if it's got a serial number on

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it, that's a one of one. That's what

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makes it non fungible.

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If you can tell the difference between something

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and not, and if you can't Okay. That's

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what makes it non fungible. So we use

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it already in a lot of different platforms.

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Right. So if we go back to the

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laws of logic, it's basically going,

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to the law of identity.

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Like, the two things can't be identical in

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every respect.

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There must be something that you can grab

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onto and say,

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this is different than that. And then what

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you're doing is you're creating this non fungible

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token or this NFT

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that says, I am certifying that this is

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the unique one of that with that set

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of characteristics.

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Exactly. So I can go back to money

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again. If all money is, it's interchangeable. But

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if you get, like, that rare one coin

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that's like a misprint or something,

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how do you tell it apart?

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Will those unique little characteristics within it then

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make it non fungible? It's just unique versus

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not unique and interchangeable. Okay. But it all

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just goes back to a ledger.

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Banks, credit cards, those are all just ledgers,

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but the banks own them. The only difference

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here is it's the same ledger. It's just

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decentralized. There is no centralized authority.

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Okay.

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So I'm trying to get, like so if

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I think about this in terms of technology

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purely, it's simply the blockchain is all we're

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doing. We're putting out a signature

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across this in some way.

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Now are we incorporating

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something about

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the uniqueness into the signature so I can

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back up and say,

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I know that this is related to that?

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Like, you don't have to. You don't have

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to. Okay. That's one of the problems that

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we've had with the first generation of NFTs

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because,

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the like I said, the NFT is the

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receipt. So all it's doing is pointing to

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a media address. So if somebody had a

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Bored Ape and they went on OpenSea to

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sell it, they somebody could right click that

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art, make a new blockchain

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and point to that

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actually

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copy. That's a copy of it, of a

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digital thing and just say, Oh, it's over

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here. And if you don't notice, and you

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don't look at the little tiny

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script changes in the code, then you won't

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notice it's actually not the original.

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So,

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another way of doing that of rug pulling

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is you can just take away that media

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file and replace it with something else. You'd

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still be buying the NFT, but what it's

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pointing to is something different.

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So I can use security into that source

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file too.

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So so this relates directly to security

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in the network world in one way, in

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that you have authentication,

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authorization,

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and, triple a and,

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Accounting. Accounting. I always think logging. Logging. Right?

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Logging is in my head. But anyway yeah.

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So

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this is really tied to the authentication piece

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of it more and the

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the logging piece of it or the accounting

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piece of it more than anything else. Because

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what you're saying is, I authenticate this to

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be that,

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and we have all the same problems we

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have with authentication

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in any other way. Now, what That used

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to be all it could do. But yes,

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that is a very, very strong point about

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it. Okay. So what else can it do

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if we were to say it does more

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than that now?

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So,

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the OG in the whole space, Bitcoin,

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when it started, this was this made up

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person. We don't know if he's real or

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not Satoshi,

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that just wrote about this decentralized platform in

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general, how decentralized

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cryptography can work so you would not need

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a trusted central figure. That's why we call

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it trustless.

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Along after that came the Talib Buterin who

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created Ethereum,

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which is programmable

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NFTs.

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So there are different versions of Ethereum, ERC

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7 20 1, ERC 11 50 5. Those

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are just the names of whenever something was

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registered.

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When seven twenty one came out, somebody added

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a contract.

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So now there's a program,

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tiny little bitty program in the NFT,

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meaning the NFT can behave

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in a way we program it to.

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So the first, NFT to come out of

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that was at ETHDenver twenty seventeen,

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CryptoKitties.

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If you guys came across those. And that

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said, Okay, this NFT has these qualities, and

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this NFT has these qualities. And we will

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allow these two NFTs to breed

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and to create a derivative

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where we're just like parents making a fiftyfifty

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random exchange of quality characteristics

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to make this baby.

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So that people would now buy kitties, breed

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them, create rare things. And then you have

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this ecosystem of a marketplace

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that grows out of that. So smart contracts

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became a really, really big thing that went

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on top of what, Bitcoin on itself, or

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I should say what blockchain on itself could

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do. Yeah. So smart contracts is an area

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that I think is really interesting for us

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to explore a little bit because this has

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direct

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impact on

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the ability of companies to do business together

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in a distributed way without doing banks for

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clearing or anything like this. And, of course,

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they can be carried over networks or, you

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know, carried through the computer through computer systems.

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So how is is that developing, the smart

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contract concept

270
00:09:39,754 --> 00:09:42,794
developing into the world where we're seeing people

271
00:09:42,794 --> 00:09:43,294
do

272
00:09:43,595 --> 00:09:46,154
ordinary, everyday things with smart contracts? I mean,

273
00:09:46,154 --> 00:09:47,839
we've heard people, Oh, I bought this house

274
00:09:47,839 --> 00:09:49,600
with Bitcoin. Well, I didn't. I'm just saying

275
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:50,659
people say they do.

276
00:09:51,039 --> 00:09:52,559
Yeah. But that's not quite the same thing

277
00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,559
as a smart contract. That's just a that's

278
00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,440
just an exchange of monetary value. The contract

279
00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:58,339
lives outside

280
00:09:58,639 --> 00:09:59,620
the the blockchain.

281
00:10:00,154 --> 00:10:01,915
But what you're saying is the contract in

282
00:10:01,915 --> 00:10:04,335
this case is part of the blockchain.

283
00:10:05,195 --> 00:10:07,434
Exactly. And it's it's a it's a shame

284
00:10:07,434 --> 00:10:09,355
that it's called a smart contract because it

285
00:10:09,355 --> 00:10:11,915
is not a contract. Everybody thinks contract means

286
00:10:11,915 --> 00:10:14,470
a legal IP is is changing. That's a

287
00:10:14,470 --> 00:10:17,029
separate thing. So if somebody buys like remember

288
00:10:17,029 --> 00:10:18,870
when Seth Green bought a Bored Ape and

289
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:20,870
then somebody stole his Bored Ape and he

290
00:10:20,870 --> 00:10:22,230
was trying to make a TV show with

291
00:10:22,230 --> 00:10:23,750
the Bored Ape in it? So who had

292
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:24,410
the rights?

293
00:10:24,789 --> 00:10:27,075
Did Yuga Labs have the rights? Did Seth

294
00:10:27,075 --> 00:10:28,355
still have the rights? Did the person who

295
00:10:28,355 --> 00:10:30,035
stole it and had possessorship of the NFT

296
00:10:30,035 --> 00:10:31,575
have the rights? It wasn't clear.

297
00:10:32,274 --> 00:10:34,355
So that's a contract thing, not a smart

298
00:10:34,355 --> 00:10:36,675
contract thing. The smart contract contract could say,

299
00:10:36,675 --> 00:10:38,115
you can't make a copy of me or

300
00:10:38,115 --> 00:10:39,394
you can make a copy of me. That's

301
00:10:39,394 --> 00:10:40,355
another derivative. Or,

302
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,919
I can only be opened on this day

303
00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:46,720
or with this key. And there's different formulas

304
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,559
that do different things. And the big one

305
00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,360
for me was, what was called ERC 6,551,

306
00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,259
which is allowing,

307
00:10:53,039 --> 00:10:54,980
a, an NFT to own its own wallet.

308
00:10:56,375 --> 00:10:58,615
That's a big change right there because that

309
00:10:58,615 --> 00:11:00,715
means objects can own things.

310
00:11:01,254 --> 00:11:03,335
Oh, interesting. So in this case, what you

311
00:11:03,335 --> 00:11:05,174
could say is you could say, I have

312
00:11:05,174 --> 00:11:08,134
a smart contract that will only allow you

313
00:11:08,134 --> 00:11:10,615
to access the wallet owned by that thing

314
00:11:10,774 --> 00:11:11,514
by that

315
00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:12,379
object

316
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,639
Mhmm. In the case that certain things are

317
00:11:15,639 --> 00:11:16,139
fulfilled.

318
00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:18,540
So you could actually Now an NFT

319
00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,679
does need a wallet to be held, so

320
00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,360
I still have to possess it or whatever

321
00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,600
the creator does, but then that thing itself

322
00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,214
can possess. Like a Russian doll. Yeah. Exactly.

323
00:11:27,355 --> 00:11:29,355
But that but right. That's exactly right. You

324
00:11:29,355 --> 00:11:31,595
can actually give the NFT to someone else

325
00:11:31,595 --> 00:11:34,315
and say, when you fulfill the the the

326
00:11:34,315 --> 00:11:35,534
terms of this contract

327
00:11:36,235 --> 00:11:38,394
and the NFT, the object itself can see

328
00:11:38,394 --> 00:11:38,894
that,

329
00:11:39,549 --> 00:11:41,389
now you will be able to access the

330
00:11:41,389 --> 00:11:42,529
wallet attached

331
00:11:43,149 --> 00:11:45,970
to this. So now you get paid. Right?

332
00:11:46,269 --> 00:11:47,549
So that's it. If that's one of the

333
00:11:47,549 --> 00:11:49,709
programs. Yeah. Yeah. So you could program it

334
00:11:49,709 --> 00:11:50,370
to actually

335
00:11:50,990 --> 00:11:53,009
defer or to manage payment

336
00:11:53,309 --> 00:11:54,370
based on performance

337
00:11:54,884 --> 00:11:56,024
of certain things

338
00:11:56,485 --> 00:11:58,644
in the in the virtual world, which is

339
00:11:58,644 --> 00:11:59,144
interesting.

340
00:11:59,684 --> 00:12:01,285
Yeah. If you're working with escrows, that's an

341
00:12:01,285 --> 00:12:04,884
easy example. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Escrows are

342
00:12:04,884 --> 00:12:06,565
one. But I'm not just thinking of I'm

343
00:12:06,565 --> 00:12:08,665
not just thinking of escrows. I'm thinking of

344
00:12:08,725 --> 00:12:09,865
even bug bounties.

345
00:12:10,909 --> 00:12:13,069
Right? Bug bounties are kind of escrow, but

346
00:12:13,069 --> 00:12:14,509
you could do this with a bug bounty.

347
00:12:14,509 --> 00:12:16,509
Right? You could say, if you can break

348
00:12:16,509 --> 00:12:17,970
into this particular

349
00:12:18,350 --> 00:12:18,850
software,

350
00:12:19,309 --> 00:12:21,730
you will find something that allows you

351
00:12:22,110 --> 00:12:23,329
to go unlock

352
00:12:23,845 --> 00:12:26,325
the NFT, or the NFT will see you

353
00:12:26,325 --> 00:12:28,504
do it when you reach a certain point.

354
00:12:29,284 --> 00:12:31,445
And you'll you'll be able to access this

355
00:12:31,445 --> 00:12:33,684
wallet. That's one of the mistakes people make

356
00:12:33,684 --> 00:12:36,965
about jumping wholeheartedly into blockchain. We could do

357
00:12:36,965 --> 00:12:38,424
everything we've already said

358
00:12:38,779 --> 00:12:41,279
in a centralized way. We would just need

359
00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:43,820
centralized, trusted systems in order to make that

360
00:12:43,820 --> 00:12:45,899
happen. This could now all be done in

361
00:12:45,899 --> 00:12:47,980
an automatic way where we can all trust

362
00:12:47,980 --> 00:12:49,660
the system. And I want to use that

363
00:12:49,660 --> 00:12:52,700
word very lightly because all blockchain does is

364
00:12:52,700 --> 00:12:55,095
create trust within the chain. Right. When you're

365
00:12:55,095 --> 00:12:56,475
minting, when you're exchanging,

366
00:12:56,934 --> 00:12:58,455
it's it's a no holds barred. There's no

367
00:12:58,455 --> 00:13:01,174
FDIC. There's no trusted centralized figures to help

368
00:13:01,174 --> 00:13:02,315
you here. There's no laws.

369
00:13:03,014 --> 00:13:03,995
So does this

370
00:13:04,455 --> 00:13:05,575
come back into

371
00:13:08,309 --> 00:13:12,090
could this come back into identity and identity

372
00:13:12,149 --> 00:13:14,070
services? I'm not sure, yeah. So, so for

373
00:13:14,070 --> 00:13:16,570
instance, I could imagine a system

374
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:17,610
where

375
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:20,230
today we have we have a program on

376
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:23,085
our cell phone that flips numbers for us.

377
00:13:23,565 --> 00:13:24,785
You know, a two factor,

378
00:13:25,644 --> 00:13:27,345
two factor authentication system.

379
00:13:27,725 --> 00:13:29,825
And rather than having a two factor authentication

380
00:13:29,965 --> 00:13:32,384
system, you could actually have an NFT

381
00:13:33,165 --> 00:13:35,325
that says, I am who I am. I

382
00:13:35,325 --> 00:13:36,304
know it. Because,

383
00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:38,639
you know, for instance, there could be a

384
00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:39,299
a fingerprint

385
00:13:39,759 --> 00:13:42,319
embedded in the NFT that with a program

386
00:13:42,319 --> 00:13:44,559
that can read a fingerprint reader of a

387
00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:46,639
certain class or model. And then you could

388
00:13:46,639 --> 00:13:48,639
actually put your finger on the fingerprint, and

389
00:13:48,639 --> 00:13:50,980
the NFT says, yes. That's actually that person.

390
00:13:51,794 --> 00:13:53,095
And you could actually prove

391
00:13:53,554 --> 00:13:55,495
who a person is in that way.

392
00:13:55,955 --> 00:13:57,815
You could tie by a metrics. You could.

393
00:13:58,274 --> 00:14:00,195
You could. One of the things we've been

394
00:14:00,195 --> 00:14:02,215
trying to do is you've seen smart rings.

395
00:14:02,355 --> 00:14:04,115
Right. Where, like, you know, it's it's reading

396
00:14:04,115 --> 00:14:04,274
your

397
00:14:05,419 --> 00:14:06,940
Pulse or whatever. You know, it's giving yeah.

398
00:14:06,940 --> 00:14:08,220
It's pure pulse and everything. It's saying, hey.

399
00:14:08,220 --> 00:14:10,299
There's enough about you. We've started looking at

400
00:14:10,299 --> 00:14:11,419
this as how we can use this as

401
00:14:11,419 --> 00:14:13,339
biometric data. So you're not only getting your

402
00:14:13,339 --> 00:14:15,339
wellness, but it's also I'm the only one

403
00:14:15,339 --> 00:14:17,980
with this unique combination of this heartbeat and

404
00:14:17,980 --> 00:14:20,399
this blood pressure and this body temperature, etcetera.

405
00:14:20,595 --> 00:14:22,355
So that when the NFC chip that's in

406
00:14:22,355 --> 00:14:24,674
here taps something, it's still checking. Am I

407
00:14:24,674 --> 00:14:26,115
the one wearing this ring? Or are you

408
00:14:26,115 --> 00:14:28,054
the one wearing this ring? So there's different,

409
00:14:28,355 --> 00:14:30,595
gateways or blocks you can create for that

410
00:14:30,595 --> 00:14:31,414
kind of stuff.

411
00:14:31,794 --> 00:14:33,929
Another one being a sold down token, which

412
00:14:33,929 --> 00:14:35,929
is just saying, once this is minted, you

413
00:14:35,929 --> 00:14:38,250
can't exchange it. The smart contract says, you

414
00:14:38,250 --> 00:14:40,409
can't exchange it, which means it's yours and

415
00:14:40,409 --> 00:14:42,029
nobody else can take it from you.

416
00:14:43,450 --> 00:14:45,529
Right. Which is the theft prevention and not

417
00:14:45,529 --> 00:14:48,669
only theft prevention, but also IP prevention, intellectual

418
00:14:48,970 --> 00:14:49,470
property.

419
00:14:49,894 --> 00:14:51,815
Like it can be used. Yes. And no.

420
00:14:51,815 --> 00:14:53,975
Remember, it's a you need a contract for

421
00:14:53,975 --> 00:14:55,355
IP, not a smart contract.

422
00:14:55,815 --> 00:14:57,254
But we we do get into that a

423
00:14:57,254 --> 00:14:59,415
lot with, trying to figure out what's the

424
00:14:59,415 --> 00:15:01,649
next level of of name image likeness. So

425
00:15:01,730 --> 00:15:04,290
So we're calling that nail name AI image

426
00:15:04,290 --> 00:15:07,570
likeness, because as we start becoming avatars and

427
00:15:07,570 --> 00:15:10,610
have personal twin personalities of ourselves, what's unique

428
00:15:10,610 --> 00:15:12,950
about us? What's non fungible about you?

429
00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:14,850
And so what's your AI going to be

430
00:15:14,850 --> 00:15:17,350
that's an, that's IP that it can hold?

431
00:15:17,490 --> 00:15:19,304
And that'll get brought in also into the

432
00:15:19,304 --> 00:15:19,804
name.

433
00:15:20,585 --> 00:15:22,924
That's very interesting because that could totally revolutionize

434
00:15:23,225 --> 00:15:25,304
zero trust in the networking world. That could

435
00:15:25,304 --> 00:15:25,784
totally,

436
00:15:26,184 --> 00:15:26,684
revolutionize,

437
00:15:27,865 --> 00:15:30,825
all sorts of the AAA process. It could

438
00:15:30,825 --> 00:15:33,110
revolutionize all of this stuff. So how far

439
00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:34,809
out are we talking about

440
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:36,570
in terms of time

441
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:38,970
for those types of applications?

442
00:15:40,070 --> 00:15:42,549
So in a sense, it's already here. People

443
00:15:42,549 --> 00:15:44,250
talk about innovation as,

444
00:15:44,710 --> 00:15:46,470
the future's already here. It's just not evenly

445
00:15:46,470 --> 00:15:47,264
distributed yet.

446
00:15:49,424 --> 00:15:51,184
So there's a lot of examples of of

447
00:15:51,184 --> 00:15:53,184
things that have happened. Everything we've said has

448
00:15:53,184 --> 00:15:55,825
happened, just hasn't happened at scale. And it

449
00:15:55,825 --> 00:15:57,665
hasn't happened at an adoption level where people

450
00:15:57,665 --> 00:15:59,825
even understand. Like, we're having this conversation, which

451
00:15:59,825 --> 00:16:01,845
we could have had in 2017.

452
00:16:02,070 --> 00:16:04,206
It's the same conversation of what the hell

453
00:16:04,206 --> 00:16:06,342
is blockchain, but we're still having it because

454
00:16:06,342 --> 00:16:08,746
it's really, not about the tech. It's about

455
00:16:08,746 --> 00:16:10,882
the use cases and how people understand that.

456
00:16:10,882 --> 00:16:13,019
Because we don't understand, you know, when we

457
00:16:13,019 --> 00:16:15,155
drive through an easy pass, what's actually happening

458
00:16:15,155 --> 00:16:17,264
with the NFC and the magnetism and what's

459
00:16:17,264 --> 00:16:19,105
getting exchanged in a ledger. We just go,

460
00:16:19,105 --> 00:16:21,904
Yeah, that, that worked. So we don't ever

461
00:16:21,904 --> 00:16:23,504
have to really understand this stuff. We just

462
00:16:23,504 --> 00:16:24,785
have to live in the benefit side of

463
00:16:24,785 --> 00:16:26,545
it. So it's more about saying, what are

464
00:16:26,545 --> 00:16:28,545
we really making? What are we really using

465
00:16:28,545 --> 00:16:30,809
these things for? And in that case, you

466
00:16:30,809 --> 00:16:33,129
are seeing one of the early things is,

467
00:16:33,129 --> 00:16:34,750
like I said before, supply chain.

468
00:16:35,450 --> 00:16:37,009
So I don't want to trust anybody in

469
00:16:37,009 --> 00:16:38,410
the supply chain because of going from one

470
00:16:38,410 --> 00:16:40,330
different company to another. But if they're all

471
00:16:40,330 --> 00:16:42,590
on the same chain, that object is autonomous

472
00:16:42,809 --> 00:16:44,509
from all of those different

473
00:16:45,144 --> 00:16:47,225
companies that may have different incentives to tell

474
00:16:47,225 --> 00:16:48,985
the truth or not. Because, you know, we're

475
00:16:48,985 --> 00:16:50,985
all not using real olive oil. That sushi

476
00:16:50,985 --> 00:16:52,605
is not the fish you think it is.

477
00:16:52,904 --> 00:16:55,384
Blockchain has entered those spaces pretty early and

478
00:16:55,384 --> 00:16:57,164
has been there for almost a decade.

479
00:16:57,544 --> 00:16:59,325
We're seeing it in fashion more and more

480
00:16:59,929 --> 00:17:01,370
now to the extent that like, you know,

481
00:17:01,370 --> 00:17:03,450
NFC chips. So it's not even just the

482
00:17:03,450 --> 00:17:04,990
supply chain. It's

483
00:17:05,769 --> 00:17:07,849
we treat fashion like R2. It's a non

484
00:17:07,849 --> 00:17:09,230
fungible token in itself.

485
00:17:09,529 --> 00:17:11,710
Let's keep the chip with the end product.

486
00:17:12,255 --> 00:17:14,174
And when you have that, you then add

487
00:17:14,174 --> 00:17:15,934
people to the value chain. That's a whole

488
00:17:15,934 --> 00:17:18,335
other conversation, but blockchain doesn't have to end

489
00:17:18,335 --> 00:17:19,714
just because you've made the purchase.

490
00:17:20,095 --> 00:17:21,795
Right. That's interesting because,

491
00:17:22,335 --> 00:17:23,775
again, you know, when you talk about and

492
00:17:23,775 --> 00:17:24,914
that when I think about

493
00:17:26,490 --> 00:17:28,650
when I think about supply chain, my immediate

494
00:17:28,650 --> 00:17:30,670
thing is gonna be software supply chain.

495
00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:32,730
And now the problem is, I don't know,

496
00:17:32,730 --> 00:17:34,509
because software itself is fungible,

497
00:17:35,690 --> 00:17:36,910
people change it.

498
00:17:37,450 --> 00:17:38,670
Is that an application?

499
00:17:38,970 --> 00:17:40,590
Or because it's changeable,

500
00:17:41,265 --> 00:17:43,345
does that make it difficult to apply? Like,

501
00:17:43,345 --> 00:17:46,065
I'm thinking an open source developer or an

502
00:17:46,065 --> 00:17:47,045
open source project

503
00:17:47,424 --> 00:17:49,825
publishes a new version of the software, and

504
00:17:49,825 --> 00:17:52,625
they put somehow an NFT on it to

505
00:17:52,625 --> 00:17:55,184
verify this is, like, this is the real

506
00:17:55,184 --> 00:17:55,684
release.

507
00:17:56,305 --> 00:17:58,899
Right? This is really what it is. And

508
00:17:58,899 --> 00:18:00,919
then this would be like having a CRC

509
00:18:01,380 --> 00:18:03,940
or, you know, a cryptographic hash across it,

510
00:18:03,940 --> 00:18:04,440
essentially.

511
00:18:05,059 --> 00:18:07,240
But you could go one step farther, perhaps.

512
00:18:07,779 --> 00:18:09,700
I just wonder what that one step farther

513
00:18:09,700 --> 00:18:11,539
might happen to be here. Like, is there

514
00:18:11,539 --> 00:18:12,795
an application there?

515
00:18:13,835 --> 00:18:15,134
Yes. Well, first of all,

516
00:18:15,755 --> 00:18:18,234
don't use fungible to mean changeable. Okay. I'm

517
00:18:18,234 --> 00:18:20,734
sorry. Well, that's great. Right. But,

518
00:18:21,914 --> 00:18:24,174
in and of itself, like a supply chain,

519
00:18:25,460 --> 00:18:27,220
Like I said, everybody's on their own kind

520
00:18:27,220 --> 00:18:29,380
of like incentive, so somebody could change something

521
00:18:29,380 --> 00:18:31,000
along the way. But,

522
00:18:31,460 --> 00:18:32,839
if you have this decentralized

523
00:18:33,140 --> 00:18:35,640
trustless chain, that means everybody

524
00:18:35,940 --> 00:18:37,720
there has automatically agreed

525
00:18:38,464 --> 00:18:40,005
to work off of that chain.

526
00:18:40,305 --> 00:18:41,125
So when you're

527
00:18:41,424 --> 00:18:43,765
creating an exchange, when some transfer happens,

528
00:18:45,025 --> 00:18:47,125
like you said before, it's not even

529
00:18:47,904 --> 00:18:51,345
who's deciding what is happening. It's that the

530
00:18:51,345 --> 00:18:52,244
chain is deciding.

531
00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:54,480
Now, how does the chain decide? Because there's

532
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:55,620
anonymous people

533
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,180
that get paid through gas fees

534
00:18:58,559 --> 00:18:59,460
in the system

535
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:01,860
to do a complicated math problem.

536
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,420
And that's what allows for the trustless.

537
00:19:05,065 --> 00:19:06,825
Because there is a math problem that's sent

538
00:19:06,825 --> 00:19:09,005
out to three random people across the entire

539
00:19:09,465 --> 00:19:12,105
chain network. And nobody knows who's going to

540
00:19:12,105 --> 00:19:13,005
get those problems.

541
00:19:13,545 --> 00:19:15,144
And they all have to be done exactly

542
00:19:15,144 --> 00:19:16,045
at the same time.

543
00:19:16,424 --> 00:19:18,820
So because the system is so big and

544
00:19:18,820 --> 00:19:20,680
so decentralized, nobody can control

545
00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:23,240
the doing of the math problems,

546
00:19:23,539 --> 00:19:26,100
which is what certifies whether exchange happens or

547
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:28,359
not. I don't know if that helps, but

548
00:19:28,740 --> 00:19:30,519
that's why blockchain works versus,

549
00:19:30,904 --> 00:19:32,424
you know, a few a few people on

550
00:19:32,424 --> 00:19:33,944
one boat can exchange and say, like, yep.

551
00:19:33,944 --> 00:19:35,144
That's we just changed out this fish for

552
00:19:35,144 --> 00:19:37,484
this fish and nobody know knows what happened.

553
00:19:38,184 --> 00:19:40,585
So it's interesting because you say at the

554
00:19:40,585 --> 00:19:42,664
same time, but it's literally not at the

555
00:19:42,664 --> 00:19:45,240
same time. Right? It's like No. It's across

556
00:19:45,460 --> 00:19:48,339
the network. Yeah. Within a range of time.

557
00:19:48,339 --> 00:19:48,839
Correct.

558
00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:50,039
Not necessarily

559
00:19:50,420 --> 00:19:52,740
yeah. It's not necessarily, like, at the same

560
00:19:52,740 --> 00:19:56,099
moment. It's because I'm thinking CAP theorem. I'm

561
00:19:56,099 --> 00:19:58,654
immediately thinking, you know, you can't you can't

562
00:19:58,654 --> 00:20:00,355
actually do two things at once.

563
00:20:00,894 --> 00:20:02,335
Well, it's not this two things at once.

564
00:20:02,335 --> 00:20:04,835
It's that well, Ethereum calls itself a decentralized

565
00:20:04,974 --> 00:20:07,134
computer. Yeah. Right. These are actions. All those

566
00:20:07,134 --> 00:20:09,214
one and and zero calculations that are happening,

567
00:20:09,214 --> 00:20:11,470
they're just happening across a network. Yeah. Right.

568
00:20:11,470 --> 00:20:13,309
Where one hand doesn't know what the other's

569
00:20:13,309 --> 00:20:14,849
doing because it's decentralized.

570
00:20:15,230 --> 00:20:16,289
But we're all incentivized

571
00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:18,190
to make sure those things happen because that's

572
00:20:18,190 --> 00:20:20,190
how we get paid with gas fees. Right.

573
00:20:20,190 --> 00:20:21,250
Yeah. Exactly.

574
00:20:21,789 --> 00:20:23,650
Now so is the person

575
00:20:24,365 --> 00:20:26,205
who is asking again, if I go back

576
00:20:26,205 --> 00:20:27,725
to, like, an open source project and I

577
00:20:27,725 --> 00:20:28,785
say I want to

578
00:20:29,164 --> 00:20:29,664
certify

579
00:20:30,045 --> 00:20:31,585
or I want to have an NHT,

580
00:20:32,365 --> 00:20:34,205
is the open source project the people who

581
00:20:34,205 --> 00:20:36,765
are paying? Somebody has to pay those people

582
00:20:36,765 --> 00:20:37,825
to do that math.

583
00:20:38,339 --> 00:20:39,480
So where does that

584
00:20:40,019 --> 00:20:41,619
That's the gas fee, but actually it's a

585
00:20:41,619 --> 00:20:43,799
good analogy to talk about open source software.

586
00:20:44,019 --> 00:20:45,700
There was a huge security hack,

587
00:20:46,019 --> 00:20:48,259
by a Chinese spy that had snuck into

588
00:20:48,259 --> 00:20:51,755
Linux Right. Last year. And the whole way

589
00:20:51,755 --> 00:20:53,595
that works is you do a lot of

590
00:20:53,595 --> 00:20:55,674
tasks, you build trust over time, your trust

591
00:20:55,674 --> 00:20:58,255
score goes up. You're allowed into the system.

592
00:20:58,795 --> 00:21:00,154
To do what? The same thing that people

593
00:21:00,154 --> 00:21:01,434
can do in a trustless way on a

594
00:21:01,434 --> 00:21:04,554
decentralized blockchain. Right. So open source and blockchain

595
00:21:04,554 --> 00:21:06,330
are really similar in

596
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:09,269
that you've got nodes of people who are

597
00:21:09,269 --> 00:21:09,769
allowed

598
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:12,789
to make changes into the system. And you

599
00:21:12,789 --> 00:21:14,150
have to do certain things in an open

600
00:21:14,150 --> 00:21:16,390
source to be qualified as someone in charge

601
00:21:16,390 --> 00:21:17,609
of a node versus

602
00:21:17,990 --> 00:21:20,464
to be, a calculator in a system, you

603
00:21:20,464 --> 00:21:22,544
just have to hold enough Bitcoin or hold

604
00:21:22,544 --> 00:21:23,365
enough Ethereum,

605
00:21:24,464 --> 00:21:26,804
to want to be an anonymized calculator.

606
00:21:27,184 --> 00:21:29,105
Right. Right. What are the what are the

607
00:21:29,105 --> 00:21:31,490
incentives to want to be an anonymized calculator?

608
00:21:31,490 --> 00:21:33,009
Why do you want to use let's smile

609
00:21:33,009 --> 00:21:33,590
you don't It's gas staking.

610
00:21:35,490 --> 00:21:37,730
Yeah. Staking means you have enough of that

611
00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:38,789
coin in the market

612
00:21:39,250 --> 00:21:41,490
that you have either you can do the

613
00:21:41,490 --> 00:21:42,529
proof of work, which means you have a

614
00:21:42,529 --> 00:21:44,049
giant computer doing the work to make this

615
00:21:44,049 --> 00:21:46,184
happen or you have proof of stake like

616
00:21:46,184 --> 00:21:48,505
Ethereum and other ones where it's I have

617
00:21:48,505 --> 00:21:50,424
enough of my Ethereum in here that if

618
00:21:50,424 --> 00:21:52,525
I don't do the right thing, I lose

619
00:21:52,825 --> 00:21:53,964
everything I staked.

620
00:21:54,664 --> 00:21:56,664
Right. So your incentive to do it right,

621
00:21:56,664 --> 00:21:58,184
a little bit of reward. Your incentive to

622
00:21:58,184 --> 00:21:59,805
do it wrong, a huge punishment.

623
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,440
Right. But but this payment form you're talking

624
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:04,740
about, this, like

625
00:22:05,599 --> 00:22:07,359
people run these big computers. And by the

626
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,299
way, none of this is cheap to run.

627
00:22:10,559 --> 00:22:12,160
Well, not proof of work. Proof of stake

628
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:13,380
is 99%

629
00:22:13,565 --> 00:22:15,484
cheaper computationally. Right. Right. Proof of work's the

630
00:22:15,484 --> 00:22:17,164
only one that's like that. But proof of

631
00:22:17,164 --> 00:22:19,404
work is expensive because you have to have

632
00:22:19,404 --> 00:22:20,865
big data centers, GPUs,

633
00:22:21,565 --> 00:22:22,765
or, you know, you have to have at

634
00:22:22,765 --> 00:22:24,525
least a big machine with lots of GPUs

635
00:22:24,525 --> 00:22:26,684
to do the physical labor of actually doing

636
00:22:26,684 --> 00:22:27,825
it. You're paying for electricity.

637
00:22:28,140 --> 00:22:30,299
You're paying for software maintenance, all that other

638
00:22:30,299 --> 00:22:34,000
stuff. Yeah. So other than holding my value

639
00:22:34,059 --> 00:22:34,559
steady,

640
00:22:35,579 --> 00:22:37,740
what am I getting out of doing the

641
00:22:37,740 --> 00:22:39,279
proof of work for other people?

642
00:22:39,660 --> 00:22:41,820
That's why they call Bitcoin digital gold and

643
00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:44,365
nothing else. It's for holding value. It's not

644
00:22:44,365 --> 00:22:46,605
for transactional value. Okay. So there's a layer

645
00:22:46,605 --> 00:22:50,045
two Bitcoin. Bitcoin has ordinals. Bitcoin has lightning.

646
00:22:50,045 --> 00:22:51,404
There's all these different ways that they try

647
00:22:51,404 --> 00:22:52,705
to fudge doing transactions.

648
00:22:53,484 --> 00:22:55,950
Ethereum's a little better, but then Ethereum has

649
00:22:55,950 --> 00:22:57,630
a lot of layer twos. I run on

650
00:22:57,630 --> 00:22:59,250
a layer two Ethereum name chain.

651
00:23:00,029 --> 00:23:01,630
But then Solana came along and they do

652
00:23:01,630 --> 00:23:02,450
proof of time.

653
00:23:02,910 --> 00:23:04,910
And so they got past the speed of

654
00:23:04,910 --> 00:23:05,730
credit cards.

655
00:23:06,109 --> 00:23:07,710
And they're the only ones that that's why

656
00:23:07,710 --> 00:23:09,674
everybody gets meme coins on Solana right now.

657
00:23:09,835 --> 00:23:11,515
So there's different chains doing different things that

658
00:23:11,515 --> 00:23:12,494
have different specialties.

659
00:23:12,795 --> 00:23:14,394
So you can look at Bitcoin as a

660
00:23:14,394 --> 00:23:17,055
holder value, Ethereum as the decentralized computer,

661
00:23:17,434 --> 00:23:18,815
Solana as the exchange,

662
00:23:20,075 --> 00:23:20,575
platform.

663
00:23:21,355 --> 00:23:22,955
So they all have their own different kinds

664
00:23:22,955 --> 00:23:25,890
of functions because nothing does everything. Yeah. I

665
00:23:25,890 --> 00:23:28,849
was involved in in Lightning early days and

666
00:23:28,849 --> 00:23:30,289
trying to figure out how to make that

667
00:23:30,289 --> 00:23:30,769
work.

668
00:23:31,570 --> 00:23:33,330
Because, of course, being a network engineer, they're

669
00:23:33,330 --> 00:23:35,410
always very, you know, trying to figure out

670
00:23:35,410 --> 00:23:37,250
how you get the data to transfer, you

671
00:23:37,250 --> 00:23:38,549
know, and how do you minimize

672
00:23:39,174 --> 00:23:40,695
and stuff like that, how you use the

673
00:23:40,695 --> 00:23:41,515
network efficiently.

674
00:23:42,134 --> 00:23:43,515
So that that is

675
00:23:43,815 --> 00:23:45,335
yeah. It's interesting to think of it in

676
00:23:45,335 --> 00:23:46,775
those terms. So what you're doing is you're

677
00:23:46,775 --> 00:23:47,275
saying,

678
00:23:47,654 --> 00:23:49,035
I am going to go

679
00:23:49,894 --> 00:23:50,394
basically

680
00:23:51,190 --> 00:23:53,349
polish someone else's gold and make sure it's

681
00:23:53,349 --> 00:23:55,990
real to make sure my gold holds its

682
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:56,490
value

683
00:23:56,869 --> 00:23:59,450
to some degree. You're like helping someone else

684
00:23:59,750 --> 00:24:01,529
validate the value they have

685
00:24:01,830 --> 00:24:03,930
in order to maintain your value

686
00:24:04,309 --> 00:24:05,750
is kind of a is kind of a

687
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:06,884
way of looking at it.

688
00:24:07,765 --> 00:24:09,045
It is a way of looking at it.

689
00:24:09,045 --> 00:24:11,125
I I think there's a lot analogies can

690
00:24:11,125 --> 00:24:12,565
hold and not hold and Yeah. Of course.

691
00:24:12,565 --> 00:24:14,164
Yes. Yes. I keep thinking of, like, Die

692
00:24:14,164 --> 00:24:15,765
Hard three and all the gold under New

693
00:24:15,765 --> 00:24:17,365
York City and how they get it out

694
00:24:17,365 --> 00:24:18,930
of there. And but it's just a bank

695
00:24:19,170 --> 00:24:21,490
doing you know, everybody forgets money is just

696
00:24:21,490 --> 00:24:23,410
Fiat. It's it's it's not referencing anything. It's

697
00:24:23,410 --> 00:24:25,170
just the trust of the government. So there's

698
00:24:25,170 --> 00:24:27,750
nothing there there. It's a rarity. It's it's

699
00:24:27,970 --> 00:24:28,450
it's it's a rarity. Right. And the point

700
00:24:28,450 --> 00:24:30,549
is saying it's proof of work and that

701
00:24:30,690 --> 00:24:33,265
how computation is stored as value. And it's

702
00:24:33,265 --> 00:24:34,704
true. It's just as long as we value

703
00:24:34,704 --> 00:24:35,204
computation,

704
00:24:35,744 --> 00:24:37,984
which is really in and of itself, but

705
00:24:37,984 --> 00:24:39,265
that's what they say. Well, that kind of

706
00:24:39,265 --> 00:24:40,865
leads to the next question I was thinking

707
00:24:40,865 --> 00:24:43,744
about was I read an article recently where

708
00:24:43,744 --> 00:24:46,380
they were talking about there were all these

709
00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:47,920
lost Bitcoin wallets

710
00:24:48,460 --> 00:24:51,500
Yeah. Out there. Right? Yeah. People people own

711
00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:53,580
millions of dollars or whatever it is in

712
00:24:53,580 --> 00:24:55,259
Bitcoin. And some of them, they were, you

713
00:24:55,259 --> 00:24:57,660
know, lots of money. And they've lost their

714
00:24:57,660 --> 00:24:58,095
key.

715
00:24:58,575 --> 00:24:59,794
And this actually

716
00:25:00,095 --> 00:25:00,595
increases

717
00:25:01,454 --> 00:25:03,954
the value of Bitcoin in a sense

718
00:25:04,335 --> 00:25:05,634
because it makes it

719
00:25:06,414 --> 00:25:07,394
more rare.

720
00:25:08,414 --> 00:25:10,255
Right? It doesn't make it more rare. It

721
00:25:10,255 --> 00:25:12,690
just makes, less liquidity in the system. Right.

722
00:25:12,690 --> 00:25:14,690
Okay. So that actually could make it more

723
00:25:14,690 --> 00:25:15,190
valuable,

724
00:25:15,650 --> 00:25:17,730
because those are locked away for sure. But,

725
00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:19,330
yeah, it's just locked away. It's not going

726
00:25:19,330 --> 00:25:20,549
anywhere. Right. However,

727
00:25:21,089 --> 00:25:23,009
I'll speak in terms of Web three here.

728
00:25:23,009 --> 00:25:24,609
And when I say Web three, I'm gonna

729
00:25:24,609 --> 00:25:25,830
talk about pillar technologies.

730
00:25:26,924 --> 00:25:30,625
So the XR, Metaverse VR AR is one.

731
00:25:31,164 --> 00:25:33,644
AI, generative AI, deep learning, all that is

732
00:25:33,644 --> 00:25:34,144
another.

733
00:25:34,684 --> 00:25:35,184
Blockchain

734
00:25:36,444 --> 00:25:39,789
is another. And quantum computers, the fourth. And

735
00:25:39,789 --> 00:25:41,789
they've all hit in different ways at different

736
00:25:41,789 --> 00:25:43,630
times in this past decade and are keep

737
00:25:43,630 --> 00:25:45,390
coming up and down. But I have a

738
00:25:45,390 --> 00:25:47,789
feeling, if not this year, at least by

739
00:25:47,789 --> 00:25:50,029
next year, somebody's gonna use a quantum computer

740
00:25:50,029 --> 00:25:50,930
to break Bitcoin.

741
00:25:51,390 --> 00:25:52,609
As soon as that happens,

742
00:25:52,990 --> 00:25:54,289
Bitcoin goes to zero

743
00:25:55,144 --> 00:25:56,825
and they have to quantum secure it. So

744
00:25:56,825 --> 00:25:59,544
does Bitcoin get quantum secure on a decentralized

745
00:25:59,544 --> 00:26:01,144
network, which is a DAO? Everybody has to

746
00:26:01,144 --> 00:26:03,085
decide to do this. That's a giant fork.

747
00:26:03,625 --> 00:26:05,944
Once that happens, it'll be secured from quantum.

748
00:26:05,944 --> 00:26:07,144
But then we'll be in a quantum world

749
00:26:07,144 --> 00:26:09,230
and we can take advantage of quantum plus

750
00:26:09,230 --> 00:26:11,230
blockchain plus AI plus XR. And oh, my

751
00:26:11,230 --> 00:26:13,149
God, that's a lot. But we have to

752
00:26:13,149 --> 00:26:14,829
get over that hump now too. The same

753
00:26:14,829 --> 00:26:16,109
way that we're getting over all these humps

754
00:26:16,109 --> 00:26:17,950
with AI right now, the same way that

755
00:26:17,950 --> 00:26:19,649
the metaverse was like this beautiful

756
00:26:19,950 --> 00:26:21,944
idea that just didn't come together. They all

757
00:26:21,944 --> 00:26:23,944
have their own up and down things, and

758
00:26:23,944 --> 00:26:25,244
they're slowly converging.

759
00:26:25,865 --> 00:26:27,544
But we are gonna go through this giant

760
00:26:27,544 --> 00:26:29,304
bump very, very soon. The quantum is gonna

761
00:26:29,304 --> 00:26:31,484
break Bitcoin or just block it in general.

762
00:26:31,544 --> 00:26:33,784
Well, it's so, actually, the the article I

763
00:26:33,784 --> 00:26:35,404
was reading said something about

764
00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:38,299
the first attack point, the first,

765
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,720
place in the attack surface that someone is

766
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,420
likely to try to attack Bitcoin

767
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,820
is not breaking the chain itself.

768
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,740
It's finding the keys for these lost wallets.

769
00:26:51,394 --> 00:26:52,914
Right. So we don't know what the first

770
00:26:52,914 --> 00:26:54,355
attack's gonna be and what it's gonna do.

771
00:26:54,355 --> 00:26:56,115
If you're smart, the first thing you're gonna

772
00:26:56,115 --> 00:26:56,855
do is

773
00:26:57,315 --> 00:26:59,954
hack into those lost wallets, get that money,

774
00:26:59,954 --> 00:27:01,714
cash out, and then break the system. Right.

775
00:27:01,714 --> 00:27:03,394
Or it's just been systemally broken because you'll

776
00:27:03,394 --> 00:27:05,474
see that. And that's, you know, probably what

777
00:27:05,474 --> 00:27:07,960
will happen. Yeah. But whatever that is, either

778
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,740
way, that's zero for everybody else.

779
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,400
Yeah. Right. Once you've cashed out, you've zeroed

780
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,880
everybody else's. Right? But but, I mean, I

781
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,960
guess there's even a motivation there. Why would

782
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,480
you do it other than just for the

783
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,704
joy of tearing something down? You know, if

784
00:27:21,704 --> 00:27:23,785
you could break the if you could break

785
00:27:23,785 --> 00:27:25,464
lost wallets, you could just go through the

786
00:27:25,464 --> 00:27:27,224
rest of your life just breaking wallets and

787
00:27:27,224 --> 00:27:29,964
making millions and millions of dollars. And, like,

788
00:27:30,105 --> 00:27:31,964
yeah. You know, it's still worth something.

789
00:27:32,424 --> 00:27:34,044
I'm getting mine. There's two reasons

790
00:27:34,585 --> 00:27:35,865
that you break the law that come to

791
00:27:35,865 --> 00:27:37,929
mind for this. One is profit. Like I

792
00:27:37,929 --> 00:27:39,609
said, somebody's gonna take that wallet, cash it

793
00:27:39,609 --> 00:27:41,869
out. That's enough incentive right there. There's billions,

794
00:27:41,929 --> 00:27:42,429
billions

795
00:27:43,130 --> 00:27:44,649
ready to be taken. And as long as

796
00:27:44,649 --> 00:27:46,029
soon as it turns into cash,

797
00:27:46,490 --> 00:27:47,309
it's cash.

798
00:27:48,169 --> 00:27:50,569
And the other one is anonymous isn't pro

799
00:27:50,569 --> 00:27:52,945
crypto. There's a lot of white hat, white

800
00:27:52,945 --> 00:27:55,265
hat hackers, not to mention black hat hackers,

801
00:27:55,265 --> 00:27:57,045
that don't want crypto in the system.

802
00:27:57,585 --> 00:27:59,605
And as soon as that happens, they blockchains.

803
00:27:59,744 --> 00:28:02,305
Yeah. They don't like blockchain. Right. And there's

804
00:28:02,305 --> 00:28:04,545
actually government actors, I would assume. I mean,

805
00:28:04,545 --> 00:28:05,924
I can imagine a situation

806
00:28:06,545 --> 00:28:07,045
where

807
00:28:07,669 --> 00:28:09,669
some government, we won't you know, it could

808
00:28:09,669 --> 00:28:11,829
be any government in the world that's large

809
00:28:11,829 --> 00:28:14,169
enough to do this, could build their own

810
00:28:14,309 --> 00:28:14,809
blockchain

811
00:28:15,349 --> 00:28:17,130
and then say, oh, we don't like competition.

812
00:28:18,549 --> 00:28:20,309
Let's go out and kill all the other

813
00:28:20,309 --> 00:28:22,029
blockchains so that we're the only one left.

814
00:28:22,069 --> 00:28:25,195
Theirs is crypto secure. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yes.

815
00:28:25,654 --> 00:28:27,735
So there's so there's actually a danger there,

816
00:28:27,735 --> 00:28:29,195
I think, too. Whoever

817
00:28:29,975 --> 00:28:32,695
gets the gets the quantum gets past the

818
00:28:32,695 --> 00:28:34,235
quantum problem first

819
00:28:35,174 --> 00:28:37,579
becomes, you know, the most valuable

820
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,460
and everybody would shift to it probably because

821
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,319
they are quantum safe. Right? Yeah. And there's

822
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,759
the government has already or at least our

823
00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:47,339
government has already said, we need every single

824
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,099
database to be quantum secure.

825
00:28:49,505 --> 00:28:51,945
And that's a non Blockchain point. That's just

826
00:28:51,985 --> 00:28:53,744
Yeah. Right. Yeah. Quantity to do anything. So

827
00:28:53,744 --> 00:28:55,045
they make them quantum secure.

828
00:28:55,345 --> 00:28:57,684
The Blockchain side, because it's decentralized,

829
00:28:58,305 --> 00:29:00,485
you have to fork, you have to create

830
00:29:00,865 --> 00:29:01,365
Yeah.

831
00:29:02,650 --> 00:29:05,450
Over 50% of the entire chain saying yes

832
00:29:05,450 --> 00:29:06,109
to something.

833
00:29:06,410 --> 00:29:08,490
Mhmm. It's happened a few rare times early

834
00:29:08,490 --> 00:29:10,170
on in each of these chains' existence, but

835
00:29:10,170 --> 00:29:12,410
that's it. Right. Right. So it's a big

836
00:29:12,410 --> 00:29:13,869
thing that's gonna have to happen.

837
00:29:14,335 --> 00:29:16,975
It's very interesting. Yeah. And and another piece

838
00:29:16,975 --> 00:29:19,295
about quantum is I wonder how this would

839
00:29:19,295 --> 00:29:22,095
impact things, is that when you get quantum

840
00:29:22,095 --> 00:29:23,855
entanglement, and they've been playing with this on

841
00:29:23,855 --> 00:29:26,095
network side for a long time, you can

842
00:29:26,095 --> 00:29:26,595
actually

843
00:29:27,695 --> 00:29:28,195
defy

844
00:29:29,339 --> 00:29:30,779
not the speed of light, but you can

845
00:29:30,779 --> 00:29:31,279
defy

846
00:29:31,740 --> 00:29:33,200
the transmission time

847
00:29:33,819 --> 00:29:35,039
between two locations.

848
00:29:35,420 --> 00:29:35,920
Right?

849
00:29:36,779 --> 00:29:39,660
Does that have any potential to impact the

850
00:29:39,660 --> 00:29:40,720
way we do

851
00:29:41,735 --> 00:29:42,235
blockchains?

852
00:29:43,174 --> 00:29:44,394
If I had two computers

853
00:29:44,934 --> 00:29:47,255
connected together, they could actually, at the same

854
00:29:47,255 --> 00:29:48,154
time, instantaneously

855
00:29:49,095 --> 00:29:49,595
compute

856
00:29:50,695 --> 00:29:52,394
the same blockchain result.

857
00:29:52,934 --> 00:29:54,394
So although that's a truth,

858
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:57,109
a superposition is a truth of quantum. Quantum

859
00:29:57,109 --> 00:29:58,730
computers use superpositioning

860
00:29:59,029 --> 00:30:01,910
to create a third state, not to be

861
00:30:01,910 --> 00:30:04,150
two separate places at the same time. Because

862
00:30:04,150 --> 00:30:05,829
of that definition, you get one zero in

863
00:30:05,829 --> 00:30:06,809
both, which

864
00:30:07,454 --> 00:30:09,714
automatically goes from two possibilities, three possibilities

865
00:30:10,174 --> 00:30:12,355
of calculations. And that's what does Quantum's,

866
00:30:12,815 --> 00:30:14,034
you know, amazing logarithmically

867
00:30:14,414 --> 00:30:15,634
sized different computation.

868
00:30:16,494 --> 00:30:17,315
To to separate

869
00:30:17,694 --> 00:30:18,974
your one and your zero to create a

870
00:30:18,974 --> 00:30:20,595
superposition in different places,

871
00:30:21,670 --> 00:30:23,769
That's not what quantum's built on top of.

872
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:25,910
Well, but we wanted people to do that.

873
00:30:25,910 --> 00:30:27,509
We're actually seeing people do that. Sure. That's

874
00:30:27,509 --> 00:30:29,450
just not quantum computing. That's

875
00:30:29,829 --> 00:30:30,329
superposition,

876
00:30:31,589 --> 00:30:34,390
play or quantum entanglement play. So we've seen

877
00:30:34,390 --> 00:30:34,890
people,

878
00:30:36,164 --> 00:30:37,924
I forget how far the distance is now,

879
00:30:37,924 --> 00:30:40,724
but, yeah, something instantaneously changed in one place

880
00:30:40,724 --> 00:30:42,404
over another, which is faster than the speed

881
00:30:42,404 --> 00:30:44,164
of light if you think about it in

882
00:30:44,164 --> 00:30:46,484
terms of time. Right. Quantum doesn't deal with

883
00:30:46,484 --> 00:30:48,849
time, and Right. That's why the superposition is

884
00:30:48,849 --> 00:30:51,809
working. Exactly. Yeah. So that's another interesting development

885
00:30:51,809 --> 00:30:53,730
to be to be careful. How far do

886
00:30:53,730 --> 00:30:55,569
you think we are from Quantum being able

887
00:30:55,569 --> 00:30:56,230
to break

888
00:30:56,769 --> 00:30:58,130
the blockchain? Like I said, it's this year

889
00:30:58,130 --> 00:30:59,589
or next. So, like,

890
00:31:00,049 --> 00:31:00,549
Mark,

891
00:31:01,174 --> 00:31:03,335
Mark's CTO is Matt Hampton, and Matt Hampton

892
00:31:03,335 --> 00:31:05,015
of Envoy Design has access to three different

893
00:31:05,015 --> 00:31:07,335
quantum computers right now. And right now they're

894
00:31:07,335 --> 00:31:08,775
working on a couple of things. One of

895
00:31:08,775 --> 00:31:09,674
them is just,

896
00:31:10,694 --> 00:31:13,515
generative AI. What happens if you hook up,

897
00:31:14,009 --> 00:31:16,170
they downloaded their own deep seek because it's

898
00:31:16,170 --> 00:31:18,410
open source and threw it onto one of

899
00:31:18,410 --> 00:31:19,549
their quantum computers.

900
00:31:19,930 --> 00:31:21,230
And it

901
00:31:21,529 --> 00:31:22,029
is

902
00:31:23,049 --> 00:31:25,230
Quantum computers do not work the same way

903
00:31:25,289 --> 00:31:26,509
as a regular computer.

904
00:31:26,809 --> 00:31:29,289
So they're ground up trying to figure this

905
00:31:29,289 --> 00:31:31,265
out. So far they've gotten to making like

906
00:31:31,265 --> 00:31:33,664
polka dots and diagonal lines. Of course. In

907
00:31:33,664 --> 00:31:35,825
and of itself. That should be in like

908
00:31:35,825 --> 00:31:37,984
journals. It's huge that they've done that. But

909
00:31:37,984 --> 00:31:39,825
we look at it, we're like, it's a

910
00:31:39,825 --> 00:31:41,825
dot. I'm like, yeah, it's a quantum computer

911
00:31:41,825 --> 00:31:42,890
that did that. So,

912
00:31:43,349 --> 00:31:45,029
like, we don't know what that really means,

913
00:31:45,029 --> 00:31:47,049
but it's it's a huge thing. Yeah.

914
00:31:47,430 --> 00:31:47,930
Interesting.

915
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:48,970
Yeah.

916
00:31:49,269 --> 00:31:50,490
Large language models

917
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:53,670
mixed up with quantum might be a very

918
00:31:53,670 --> 00:31:54,170
interesting

919
00:31:54,884 --> 00:31:56,565
thing that's going to happen. And when it

920
00:31:56,565 --> 00:31:58,984
happens, who knows how that's gonna play out?

921
00:31:59,285 --> 00:32:01,285
You know? Yeah. That's like I I spent

922
00:32:01,285 --> 00:32:02,965
fifteen years in advertising. I really think from

923
00:32:02,965 --> 00:32:04,644
a market perspective, and it's really about the

924
00:32:04,644 --> 00:32:06,404
benefits, not the products. Right. You've got to

925
00:32:06,404 --> 00:32:07,765
look at these things as, like, what are

926
00:32:07,765 --> 00:32:10,025
they? So going back to art and NFTs,

927
00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:11,720
I think of an NFT as a story

928
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,440
basket. It just allows physical objects to hold

929
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:14,940
story.

930
00:32:15,399 --> 00:32:16,839
That's a huge deal in and of itself,

931
00:32:16,839 --> 00:32:18,779
and you can remake economies around that.

932
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:21,559
But it's also just that's English. That's just

933
00:32:21,559 --> 00:32:24,119
plain English. Oh, I can you know, this,

934
00:32:24,119 --> 00:32:24,440
this,

935
00:32:24,964 --> 00:32:26,724
this painting behind me right there, that's Albert

936
00:32:26,724 --> 00:32:28,884
Einstein on the boat from, London to New

937
00:32:28,884 --> 00:32:30,805
York in 1942. That went from my great

938
00:32:30,805 --> 00:32:32,244
aunt to my grandmother, to my mother, to

939
00:32:32,244 --> 00:32:34,164
me. That's an oral tradition. We all do

940
00:32:34,164 --> 00:32:36,164
this with art. Right? But now if the

941
00:32:36,164 --> 00:32:37,464
art can do that itself,

942
00:32:37,765 --> 00:32:39,365
so it doesn't need me anymore to do

943
00:32:39,365 --> 00:32:41,650
that. And now do that across all real

944
00:32:41,650 --> 00:32:42,710
world asset tokenization.

945
00:32:43,250 --> 00:32:43,750
Yeah.

946
00:32:44,130 --> 00:32:45,730
Like I said, the assembly line never has

947
00:32:45,730 --> 00:32:47,650
to end. Value add can keep happening with

948
00:32:47,650 --> 00:32:49,570
story. We can all be co creators in

949
00:32:49,570 --> 00:32:52,289
a co creator economy. We could leave late

950
00:32:52,289 --> 00:32:55,744
stage consumerism behind, and enter early stage prosumerism,

951
00:32:55,965 --> 00:32:58,465
producer consumerism, just by that technology.

952
00:32:59,884 --> 00:33:02,125
So that's culture, not technology. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

953
00:33:02,125 --> 00:33:03,904
Yeah. No. But that's but it is true.

954
00:33:03,965 --> 00:33:06,205
And that is I mean, I just happened

955
00:33:06,205 --> 00:33:07,105
to be reading

956
00:33:07,485 --> 00:33:08,960
Progress and its, Progress

957
00:33:09,980 --> 00:33:12,460
and Its Detractors or something like that, an

958
00:33:12,460 --> 00:33:14,619
interesting book about progressivism and stuff like that.

959
00:33:14,619 --> 00:33:17,019
And, also, I don't know if you've ever

960
00:33:17,019 --> 00:33:18,480
read The Lonely Crowd,

961
00:33:18,859 --> 00:33:20,779
which is an interesting book. It's a very

962
00:33:20,779 --> 00:33:23,204
interesting book from, I would say, the 1940s

963
00:33:23,264 --> 00:33:25,524
and 1950s. It's a very interesting book about,

964
00:33:26,384 --> 00:33:27,365
consumer economy

965
00:33:27,984 --> 00:33:29,924
and how the consumer economy

966
00:33:30,865 --> 00:33:32,164
works in certain ways.

967
00:33:32,865 --> 00:33:34,625
I enjoyed the first half of that, but

968
00:33:34,625 --> 00:33:35,984
the second half of the book kind of

969
00:33:35,984 --> 00:33:36,240
went

970
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,079
off in the weeds. Well, the way I

971
00:33:38,079 --> 00:33:38,579
define

972
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,220
it is that, if you're a LHS

973
00:33:41,519 --> 00:33:42,500
if you're a consumer,

974
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,420
then you define yourself

975
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,799
by the brands and the things you have.

976
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:49,039
You surround yourself with things and say, I

977
00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:51,615
am this. That's what a conspicuous consumer is.

978
00:33:51,615 --> 00:33:53,315
If you're a conspicuous prosumer,

979
00:33:53,855 --> 00:33:55,615
that means you can define yourself instead of

980
00:33:55,615 --> 00:33:57,875
by what surrounds you than by the legacy

981
00:33:57,934 --> 00:34:00,255
that you leave behind, the objects that live

982
00:34:00,255 --> 00:34:01,075
beyond you.

983
00:34:02,255 --> 00:34:03,315
Right. Exactly.

984
00:34:03,694 --> 00:34:05,775
Yeah. And that's part of what this was

985
00:34:06,174 --> 00:34:07,690
oh, I'm sorry. The name of the book

986
00:34:07,690 --> 00:34:08,969
that I'm reading right now is the the

987
00:34:08,969 --> 00:34:10,969
the true and only heaven, progress and its

988
00:34:10,969 --> 00:34:11,469
critics.

989
00:34:11,929 --> 00:34:14,730
And it's real it's very interesting on this

990
00:34:14,730 --> 00:34:15,949
score about how

991
00:34:16,570 --> 00:34:18,110
the consumer based thought

992
00:34:19,210 --> 00:34:20,670
the consumer based culture

993
00:34:21,295 --> 00:34:22,594
loses the humanity

994
00:34:23,135 --> 00:34:23,875
very quickly.

995
00:34:24,414 --> 00:34:25,934
And you have to go back to a

996
00:34:25,934 --> 00:34:26,994
maker economy

997
00:34:27,934 --> 00:34:28,434
to

998
00:34:28,735 --> 00:34:29,795
get back to

999
00:34:30,175 --> 00:34:33,900
a truly human view of people, of persons.

1000
00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:35,960
Yeah. And we're heading and Web three is

1001
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:37,159
gonna do that on the other side with

1002
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:38,760
AI. If AI is taking away all the

1003
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,840
jobs, the only thing left, because AI can't

1004
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,539
own IP, is IP.

1005
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,179
So the only economy that makes sense is

1006
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:45,980
our originality

1007
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:47,739
bought and sold.

1008
00:34:48,684 --> 00:34:49,964
Yeah. So how do you get that? You

1009
00:34:49,964 --> 00:34:52,704
have an NFT that holds it. Interesting. Interesting.

1010
00:34:53,085 --> 00:34:53,824
There are

1011
00:34:54,364 --> 00:34:56,444
arguments in both directions there. But now we're,

1012
00:34:56,444 --> 00:34:58,625
like, off in the weeds of culture and

1013
00:34:59,244 --> 00:35:01,164
Don't get me started on UBI. Which is

1014
00:35:01,164 --> 00:35:03,630
which is much more my PhD area than

1015
00:35:03,630 --> 00:35:06,469
than this than my networking world area. So

1016
00:35:06,589 --> 00:35:07,089
yeah.

1017
00:35:07,710 --> 00:35:09,630
So cool. I don't really have any more

1018
00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:11,889
questions or anything. Tom, do you have any

1019
00:35:12,989 --> 00:35:16,045
you've been very quiet, Tom. Yeah. That's that's

1020
00:35:16,045 --> 00:35:17,744
alright. I can be quiet sometimes.

1021
00:35:19,164 --> 00:35:21,565
One question it's kind of that this goes

1022
00:35:21,565 --> 00:35:22,385
back to fundamentals.

1023
00:35:23,644 --> 00:35:25,485
It when I when I thought of NFTs

1024
00:35:25,485 --> 00:35:27,085
before, I always thought that thought of them

1025
00:35:27,085 --> 00:35:27,585
as

1026
00:35:27,929 --> 00:35:30,250
a representation of value. Like, if you which

1027
00:35:30,250 --> 00:35:32,510
is which is obviously it's not just that,

1028
00:35:33,369 --> 00:35:34,730
you know, you hold up a dollar bill,

1029
00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:37,130
this this represents something. It itself is not

1030
00:35:37,130 --> 00:35:38,730
anything, but it what it's rep it's what

1031
00:35:38,730 --> 00:35:39,309
it represents

1032
00:35:39,769 --> 00:35:40,829
that gives it power.

1033
00:35:41,130 --> 00:35:41,630
So

1034
00:35:41,929 --> 00:35:42,829
what is the

1035
00:35:43,535 --> 00:35:45,535
what were the roots of NFTs? Like, what

1036
00:35:45,535 --> 00:35:47,375
was the first thing they did? And then

1037
00:35:47,535 --> 00:35:49,454
and how did that progress to other things?

1038
00:35:49,454 --> 00:35:51,215
Smart contracts, blah, blah, blah, all this other

1039
00:35:51,215 --> 00:35:52,894
stuff. Like, what was the very first thing

1040
00:35:52,894 --> 00:35:54,515
that that brought it into being?

1041
00:35:54,815 --> 00:35:56,494
So what makes the two things the same,

1042
00:35:56,494 --> 00:35:58,170
whether it's a dollar or a Bitcoin, is

1043
00:35:58,409 --> 00:35:59,949
token. It is a representation.

1044
00:36:00,650 --> 00:36:01,150
So

1045
00:36:01,530 --> 00:36:03,369
but there's a difference here. So when you're

1046
00:36:03,369 --> 00:36:04,589
talking about a dollar,

1047
00:36:04,889 --> 00:36:06,889
what makes that important is that the US

1048
00:36:06,889 --> 00:36:07,389
government

1049
00:36:07,849 --> 00:36:09,230
says it's worth a dollar.

1050
00:36:09,769 --> 00:36:12,109
There's a giant trusted system

1051
00:36:12,625 --> 00:36:13,445
that's backing it

1052
00:36:13,825 --> 00:36:15,505
up. With the blockchain and the proof of

1053
00:36:15,505 --> 00:36:16,485
work and the decentralization,

1054
00:36:17,985 --> 00:36:19,364
it's the system itself

1055
00:36:19,985 --> 00:36:21,605
and the fact that people are paying

1056
00:36:21,905 --> 00:36:24,065
whatever it is for that coin and the

1057
00:36:24,065 --> 00:36:25,585
market that that creates for all the other

1058
00:36:25,585 --> 00:36:26,085
coins

1059
00:36:26,909 --> 00:36:29,630
that determines its worth. And the fact that

1060
00:36:29,630 --> 00:36:31,389
only when you're able to add a block

1061
00:36:31,389 --> 00:36:32,750
to the chain through those proof of work

1062
00:36:32,750 --> 00:36:34,769
calculations, which is trustless anonymous,

1063
00:36:35,710 --> 00:36:37,010
does exchange happen.

1064
00:36:37,550 --> 00:36:39,710
Does the value exchange happen? So,

1065
00:36:40,030 --> 00:36:41,409
when you're talking about a Bitcoin

1066
00:36:41,715 --> 00:36:43,175
in terms of fiat currency,

1067
00:36:43,795 --> 00:36:44,295
sure.

1068
00:36:44,835 --> 00:36:45,494
The first,

1069
00:36:46,275 --> 00:36:47,635
thing there's a pizza day is how we

1070
00:36:47,635 --> 00:36:48,994
celebrate Bitcoin because it was the first time

1071
00:36:48,994 --> 00:36:51,175
there was a transaction where somebody paid,

1072
00:36:51,555 --> 00:36:53,094
for a pizza with 3 Bitcoin,

1073
00:36:54,449 --> 00:36:56,309
which was pennies at the time, but

1074
00:36:57,090 --> 00:36:58,130
$300,000

1075
00:36:58,130 --> 00:36:58,630
now.

1076
00:36:59,489 --> 00:37:01,109
So when it started off,

1077
00:37:02,050 --> 00:37:03,429
Bitcoin and blockchain

1078
00:37:03,730 --> 00:37:04,230
were

1079
00:37:04,530 --> 00:37:05,030
inseparable

1080
00:37:05,409 --> 00:37:07,934
because Bitcoin was the proof case of a

1081
00:37:07,934 --> 00:37:09,235
proof of work decentralized

1082
00:37:09,695 --> 00:37:10,195
network.

1083
00:37:10,974 --> 00:37:12,735
But as soon as that happened, we have

1084
00:37:12,735 --> 00:37:14,994
to recognize they're two different things. A decentralized

1085
00:37:15,055 --> 00:37:15,555
network

1086
00:37:16,335 --> 00:37:17,614
can go off and do a million different

1087
00:37:17,614 --> 00:37:19,614
things, and a Bitcoin is stuck being a

1088
00:37:19,614 --> 00:37:20,114
Bitcoin

1089
00:37:20,575 --> 00:37:23,155
in its own network of, holding value

1090
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:25,849
using calculation to do that. So

1091
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:29,130
for a few years, Bitcoin was really it.

1092
00:37:29,829 --> 00:37:32,230
And it was a Bitcoin Maxi, Vitalik Buterin,

1093
00:37:32,230 --> 00:37:34,069
I mentioned before that started Ethereum to say,

1094
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:35,589
what else can we do on it? So

1095
00:37:35,589 --> 00:37:36,730
the first big change

1096
00:37:37,184 --> 00:37:39,605
was another chain. The second chain, Ethereum,

1097
00:37:39,985 --> 00:37:41,925
where he wanted to look at it as

1098
00:37:41,985 --> 00:37:43,765
the decentralized computer.

1099
00:37:44,465 --> 00:37:46,164
So instead of proof of work

1100
00:37:46,545 --> 00:37:48,324
and using the computation of value,

1101
00:37:49,210 --> 00:37:49,710
it's,

1102
00:37:50,090 --> 00:37:51,289
it was still proof of work for them

1103
00:37:51,289 --> 00:37:53,230
too. But the computational value was the computation.

1104
00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:55,050
It was saying we can build contracts. We

1105
00:37:55,050 --> 00:37:56,349
can have things all happen

1106
00:37:56,730 --> 00:37:59,869
across all our decentralized network. One giant computer

1107
00:37:59,929 --> 00:38:01,929
for all of us to use that nobody

1108
00:38:01,929 --> 00:38:03,230
runs because it's decentralized.

1109
00:38:04,094 --> 00:38:06,114
And that one trustless point of decentralization

1110
00:38:06,494 --> 00:38:08,014
is what everything is built on top of,

1111
00:38:08,014 --> 00:38:09,855
and it's the only universal thing with all

1112
00:38:09,855 --> 00:38:11,934
of these things. But it's these use cases.

1113
00:38:11,934 --> 00:38:14,494
Once you get into programmable NFTs and you

1114
00:38:14,494 --> 00:38:15,934
get out of proof of work into proof

1115
00:38:15,934 --> 00:38:17,234
of time, proof of stake,

1116
00:38:18,119 --> 00:38:19,880
there's proof of space for,

1117
00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:21,099
IPFS

1118
00:38:22,279 --> 00:38:22,779
that

1119
00:38:23,079 --> 00:38:24,920
say, here's all the different ways we can

1120
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:27,799
use a decentralized network. And what is the

1121
00:38:27,799 --> 00:38:28,299
mechanism

1122
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,319
that allows for exchange on that decentralized network?

1123
00:38:31,319 --> 00:38:32,460
Proof of what?

1124
00:38:33,635 --> 00:38:35,315
And the more proofs of you have, the

1125
00:38:35,315 --> 00:38:37,474
more variability you have, and the more ways

1126
00:38:37,474 --> 00:38:39,074
you make things, the more things you can

1127
00:38:39,074 --> 00:38:40,855
do with it. What we've done,

1128
00:38:41,234 --> 00:38:43,635
pairing up with blockchain names is we don't

1129
00:38:43,635 --> 00:38:46,034
build on top of a blockchain. We use

1130
00:38:46,034 --> 00:38:47,414
the blockchain as a taxonomy.

1131
00:38:48,389 --> 00:38:49,909
So the so it's a,

1132
00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:51,849
it's a naming system, owner

1133
00:38:52,150 --> 00:38:55,289
.function.creator.object.

1134
00:38:55,909 --> 00:38:58,230
Jamie Schwarz dot art. Leonardo da Vinci dot

1135
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:58,969
Mona Lisa.

1136
00:38:59,750 --> 00:39:01,190
Where does that point to? It's a JSON

1137
00:39:01,190 --> 00:39:03,704
file that points to all of the assets

1138
00:39:03,925 --> 00:39:05,144
that that art owns.

1139
00:39:05,525 --> 00:39:08,565
So our contribution here is what we think

1140
00:39:08,565 --> 00:39:09,764
of as NFT two point zero is a

1141
00:39:09,764 --> 00:39:10,824
grouped asset NFT.

1142
00:39:11,284 --> 00:39:13,364
One NFT, a master NFT that doesn't just

1143
00:39:13,364 --> 00:39:15,764
own a lot of assets, but categorically on

1144
00:39:15,764 --> 00:39:16,264
specialized

1145
00:39:16,644 --> 00:39:17,144
NFTs.

1146
00:39:17,859 --> 00:39:20,760
Some of them are concentrated on various assets.

1147
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:23,059
So going back to art, art shouldn't just

1148
00:39:23,059 --> 00:39:24,420
be a physical piece. It can be its

1149
00:39:24,420 --> 00:39:26,359
digital twin. It could be an immersive version.

1150
00:39:26,420 --> 00:39:29,300
Free artists to express the art in different

1151
00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:31,539
modalities and mediums, because we have different modalities

1152
00:39:31,539 --> 00:39:32,119
and mediums.

1153
00:39:32,555 --> 00:39:34,735
Rights, rights contracts being the second category.

1154
00:39:35,035 --> 00:39:36,974
That's contracts and smart contracts.

1155
00:39:37,355 --> 00:39:39,355
It's what IP does it have? What IP

1156
00:39:39,355 --> 00:39:41,355
is kept by other people? And how does

1157
00:39:41,355 --> 00:39:43,434
the NFT act on those? And then the

1158
00:39:43,434 --> 00:39:45,675
last category is provenance, which is that story

1159
00:39:45,675 --> 00:39:46,175
basket.

1160
00:39:46,635 --> 00:39:48,440
So So instead of showing a JPEG across

1161
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,679
Instagram and Instagram owns all the likes and

1162
00:39:50,679 --> 00:39:52,920
comments, the art can hold those things and

1163
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,280
gain that value over time. So if I

1164
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:55,159
buy a piece of art and add a

1165
00:39:55,159 --> 00:39:57,079
thousand followers to it, it's worth more because

1166
00:39:57,079 --> 00:39:58,359
when I sell it, the followers go with

1167
00:39:58,359 --> 00:39:58,940
the art.

1168
00:40:00,295 --> 00:40:02,375
Interesting. Yeah. So those three assets together become

1169
00:40:02,375 --> 00:40:03,815
what we think of as a group asset

1170
00:40:03,815 --> 00:40:04,315
NFT.

1171
00:40:04,695 --> 00:40:06,954
Right. And and even in the provenance realm,

1172
00:40:07,175 --> 00:40:09,974
like, knowing that your grandmother had this adds

1173
00:40:09,974 --> 00:40:11,574
value for you. It may not add value

1174
00:40:11,574 --> 00:40:14,489
for anybody else. Right? But Right. Of course.

1175
00:40:14,730 --> 00:40:16,410
But but the longer it stays in your

1176
00:40:16,410 --> 00:40:19,050
family and the longer you can prove it

1177
00:40:19,050 --> 00:40:22,190
stayed in your family Mhmm. You're building value,

1178
00:40:22,570 --> 00:40:24,730
not just for you, but there are some

1179
00:40:24,730 --> 00:40:26,985
people who would want to buy that because

1180
00:40:26,985 --> 00:40:28,445
they want that kind of history

1181
00:40:29,065 --> 00:40:31,965
available to them in some way. Right? Yeah.

1182
00:40:32,505 --> 00:40:33,005
Yeah.

1183
00:40:33,625 --> 00:40:35,644
So there's a wonderful psychological experiment

1184
00:40:36,025 --> 00:40:38,425
as a sentimental value where a bunch of

1185
00:40:38,425 --> 00:40:39,945
people, a bunch of writers, bought a lot

1186
00:40:39,945 --> 00:40:40,605
of tchotchkes

1187
00:40:41,224 --> 00:40:41,805
on Craigslist

1188
00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:44,150
and then made up stories about them, like

1189
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:45,510
a salt and pepper shaker that looked like

1190
00:40:45,510 --> 00:40:48,389
two, like, little Yiddish ladies or something. And

1191
00:40:48,389 --> 00:40:49,670
then they said, Oh, it came over from

1192
00:40:49,670 --> 00:40:51,670
the boat in 1890, whatever. And they did

1193
00:40:51,670 --> 00:40:53,289
the whole thing. And then they resold them

1194
00:40:53,589 --> 00:40:56,150
at thousands and thousands of times of their

1195
00:40:56,150 --> 00:40:56,969
original value

1196
00:40:57,324 --> 00:40:59,565
because people love those stories. And those objects

1197
00:40:59,565 --> 00:41:01,025
are just story baskets.

1198
00:41:01,405 --> 00:41:03,164
Right. They're the holders of the story. And

1199
00:41:03,164 --> 00:41:05,804
when people are buying maybe my painting, they're

1200
00:41:05,804 --> 00:41:06,304
buying

1201
00:41:06,605 --> 00:41:08,765
a story, a chain of events that went

1202
00:41:08,765 --> 00:41:11,130
on through time. Right. So you've explained a

1203
00:41:11,130 --> 00:41:12,730
little bit about what it is you're working

1204
00:41:12,730 --> 00:41:13,230
on.

1205
00:41:14,409 --> 00:41:16,670
Is there any more to say about that

1206
00:41:16,730 --> 00:41:18,650
that you wanna talk about before we back

1207
00:41:18,650 --> 00:41:19,849
up? Sure. Okay.

1208
00:41:20,569 --> 00:41:22,089
So this is all based on, like, how

1209
00:41:22,089 --> 00:41:23,690
I got into this. I filed the world's

1210
00:41:23,690 --> 00:41:26,405
first NFT patent back in 2017,

1211
00:41:27,265 --> 00:41:29,025
and it was really focused on this. How

1212
00:41:29,025 --> 00:41:31,265
are we going to interact with digital objects

1213
00:41:31,265 --> 00:41:32,005
moving forward?

1214
00:41:32,385 --> 00:41:34,385
And the key here that I think few

1215
00:41:34,385 --> 00:41:36,144
people are really getting is we really need

1216
00:41:36,144 --> 00:41:38,224
to be focused on anchoring digital and physical

1217
00:41:38,224 --> 00:41:39,045
goods together.

1218
00:41:39,730 --> 00:41:42,369
That a physical good can now have its

1219
00:41:42,369 --> 00:41:43,430
digital equivalent.

1220
00:41:43,969 --> 00:41:45,750
And that those two things share

1221
00:41:47,329 --> 00:41:48,869
a reality, a provenance.

1222
00:41:49,650 --> 00:41:51,890
So that means that I can have a

1223
00:41:51,890 --> 00:41:53,730
digital twin of my art and I can

1224
00:41:53,730 --> 00:41:55,864
store it in a basement and keep it

1225
00:41:55,944 --> 00:41:58,184
or in the airport locker keeping the tax,

1226
00:41:58,425 --> 00:42:00,505
dollars away from it. While the digital one

1227
00:42:00,505 --> 00:42:02,025
of one of it is touring around and

1228
00:42:02,025 --> 00:42:04,664
being shown being interacted with. Damien Hirst sent

1229
00:42:04,664 --> 00:42:06,264
a piece of art to the moon. Nobody's

1230
00:42:06,264 --> 00:42:07,864
interacting with that thing. But if it has

1231
00:42:07,864 --> 00:42:09,625
a digital twin on earth, I can give

1232
00:42:09,625 --> 00:42:11,590
that a like. If I wanna go to

1233
00:42:11,590 --> 00:42:12,949
the Louvre and I go to a digital

1234
00:42:12,949 --> 00:42:14,789
twin of the Mona Louvre, that's of the

1235
00:42:14,789 --> 00:42:16,710
Louvre, that's different than going to just a

1236
00:42:16,710 --> 00:42:18,389
simulated version. So if you go to a

1237
00:42:18,389 --> 00:42:18,889
simulated,

1238
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:20,789
XR version of the Louvre right now, why

1239
00:42:20,789 --> 00:42:22,150
do I care about seeing a flat JPEG

1240
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:23,824
of the Mona Lisa? But if I pay

1241
00:42:23,824 --> 00:42:25,105
a ticket to go into the digital twin

1242
00:42:25,105 --> 00:42:26,224
of the Louvre to see the one of

1243
00:42:26,224 --> 00:42:27,585
one that I can actually add a like

1244
00:42:27,585 --> 00:42:29,585
to, a painting that's 500 years old that

1245
00:42:29,585 --> 00:42:31,105
now my like is a part of and

1246
00:42:31,105 --> 00:42:32,224
will be there for the next five hundred

1247
00:42:32,224 --> 00:42:33,764
years, I'm paying for that ticket.

1248
00:42:34,144 --> 00:42:35,284
Not to mention derivatives.

1249
00:42:35,585 --> 00:42:37,744
When I buy an object, every single object

1250
00:42:37,744 --> 00:42:39,449
kind of becomes a point of sale. And

1251
00:42:39,449 --> 00:42:41,210
every single person who owns something can be

1252
00:42:41,210 --> 00:42:42,190
an affiliate seller.

1253
00:42:42,730 --> 00:42:44,670
So that means distribution networks change

1254
00:42:45,849 --> 00:42:47,849
to peer to peer rather than requiring a

1255
00:42:47,849 --> 00:42:49,550
centralized platform for distribution.

1256
00:42:50,090 --> 00:42:51,769
This is this is just the beginning of

1257
00:42:51,769 --> 00:42:53,230
a lot of different possibilities.

1258
00:42:53,994 --> 00:42:56,315
Cool. Well, where can people find you if

1259
00:42:56,315 --> 00:42:58,155
they want to? Like, if they wanna follow

1260
00:42:58,155 --> 00:42:59,454
what you're working on,

1261
00:43:00,074 --> 00:43:02,554
go to, like, you know, or or find

1262
00:43:02,554 --> 00:43:05,275
out about this NFT, you know, and the

1263
00:43:05,275 --> 00:43:07,199
stuff you've been doing, where can they go?

1264
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,480
So, we are starting with mark. Art. So

1265
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,039
m r k d. Art is an informational

1266
00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:15,039
page right now. We're doing a presale, and

1267
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:16,960
you can always find me on LinkedIn, Jamie

1268
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:17,460
Schwarz,

1269
00:43:18,159 --> 00:43:20,400
bearded smile. We'll be looking at you. And

1270
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:21,460
do you blog?

1271
00:43:22,954 --> 00:43:24,094
I do through LinkedIn.

1272
00:43:25,034 --> 00:43:27,275
My day job as a brand therapist, if

1273
00:43:27,275 --> 00:43:28,974
you go to brandtherapy.coach,

1274
00:43:29,275 --> 00:43:31,515
you'll see an awful lot of speaking like

1275
00:43:31,515 --> 00:43:34,554
this and, you'll also find a GPT version

1276
00:43:34,554 --> 00:43:36,539
of me. So if you click on that,

1277
00:43:36,539 --> 00:43:37,900
you'll be able to add your own brand

1278
00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:39,739
to it. And then the GPT will become

1279
00:43:39,739 --> 00:43:41,099
your brand so you can have a conversation

1280
00:43:41,099 --> 00:43:44,219
with it. Oh, interesting. That's really cool. Awesome.

1281
00:43:44,219 --> 00:43:46,460
Yeah. NFTs can hold AI. There's a lot

1282
00:43:46,460 --> 00:43:47,200
there too.

1283
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:50,295
Yeah. It's really cool. Well, it's been a

1284
00:43:50,295 --> 00:43:51,275
fascinating conversation.

1285
00:43:51,894 --> 00:43:54,534
Thanks for coming on, Jamie. And, and we

1286
00:43:54,534 --> 00:43:55,815
will try to keep in touch. And, if

1287
00:43:55,815 --> 00:43:57,175
you have other stuff in this area you

1288
00:43:57,175 --> 00:43:58,074
wanna talk about,

1289
00:43:58,454 --> 00:44:00,054
you know, you have my email address. We

1290
00:44:00,054 --> 00:44:02,135
can hang out and do another episode of

1291
00:44:02,135 --> 00:44:03,929
the Edge. It's it's We're gonna have a

1292
00:44:03,929 --> 00:44:05,929
lot of really awesome things to announce soon.

1293
00:44:05,929 --> 00:44:07,130
The one big thing I can do now

1294
00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:08,329
is say Mark dot DJ is gonna be

1295
00:44:08,329 --> 00:44:10,269
fronted by Keith Shaquille and Public Enemy.

1296
00:44:10,650 --> 00:44:10,889
So

1297
00:44:11,609 --> 00:44:13,369
okay. We're gonna have a fun conversation about

1298
00:44:13,369 --> 00:44:15,949
music pretty soon. Alright. Cool. Awesome.

1299
00:44:16,485 --> 00:44:16,985
Okay.

1300
00:44:17,285 --> 00:44:18,644
Let's see. I'm Russ White. You can always

1301
00:44:18,644 --> 00:44:20,965
find me here at the hedge on rule11.tech.

1302
00:44:20,965 --> 00:44:22,905
You can find me on LinkedIn.

1303
00:44:23,525 --> 00:44:25,525
You can find me on x or Twitter.

1304
00:44:25,525 --> 00:44:27,065
You know, I forgot to ask you,

1305
00:44:27,525 --> 00:44:29,684
Tom. Oh. Where can people find you? LinkedIn.

1306
00:44:29,684 --> 00:44:30,179
Go ahead.

1307
00:44:31,219 --> 00:44:31,719
Faster.

1308
00:44:32,260 --> 00:44:32,760
LinkedIn.

1309
00:44:35,380 --> 00:44:37,079
Not my space. Different time.

1310
00:44:37,780 --> 00:44:40,039
Different time. Yeah. Different time.

1311
00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:42,739
Cool. And, anyway, we know we live in

1312
00:44:42,739 --> 00:44:44,119
an attention based economy.

1313
00:44:44,525 --> 00:44:46,204
So we're happy that you spent all this

1314
00:44:46,204 --> 00:44:48,224
time hanging out with us talking about NFTs,

1315
00:44:49,085 --> 00:44:50,364
and you stayed all the way to the

1316
00:44:50,364 --> 00:44:52,045
bitter end of this podcast. See, I did

1317
00:44:52,045 --> 00:44:54,545
it, Tom. I did it. So, anyway,

1318
00:44:55,164 --> 00:44:56,844
we hope you enjoyed this episode of The

1319
00:44:56,844 --> 00:44:58,469
Hedge, and we will catch you next

1320
00:45:02,769 --> 00:45:03,269
time.