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Hello, Tom.
Iris.
The plant made it back from the hospital.
I'm so happy
for the plant. I I was very
I have been worried about the plant for
weeks.
I think you I think you love the
plant more than I do. Well,
I don't know. It's something entertaining to look
at Yeah. On online. I didn't know if
it was a plant hospital, but
did she buy health insurance, or did she
pay out of pocket?
So, that's Henning, and I don't know how
to pronounce your last name, Henning, so I'm
not I'm not gonna try.
So it's Winnie, but
Henning will do.
So, where are you, Henning, physically?
I'm physically located,
in New York City.
I I work currently at Columbia University, so
I'm sitting in my my Columbia office on
Okay.
The Upper West Side of,
Manhattan.
Cool. I used to work at
the United Engineering Center when it existed
for, I don't know, just a couple of
years. I worked at the United Engineering Center.
I say a couple of years. I don't
know. Maybe it was three or four, but
whatever,
which is was used to be directly across
the street from the UN Building.
Oh, okay. It it's gone now. The the
building is gone now. It was torn down
and replaced with condos or whatever they did.
But, originally,
the I triple e, the I the I
triple e, the
American Society of Mechanical Engineers, the American Society
of Chemical Engineers,
all had floors
in that building. So it was the headquarters
for, like,
all of these different,
standards bodies.
Not not the IETF because, of course, the
IETF is not like not like that kind
of a standard body,
but a lot of the other ones. So
so I know that area pretty well, the,
the Upper West Side Of Manhattan.
Everything
from Penn Station, New York over to the
UN Building
is very familiar territory for me from all
the years I worked there and walked back
and forth. I don't know about you, but
I I never take taxis
or public transportation across town. Like, if I
have to go a long way, like uptown
or downtown,
yeah, that's one thing. But, like, 30 blocks
across town, they're the short blocks.
Yeah. And, like, it's it's not,
you know, it's just not far enough of
a walk or it's not far enough to
be bothered with a cab or or or
whatever else. So yeah.
Alright. Cool. So today, we are talking
about the NTIA,
which is the National Telecommunications
and Information Administration
Mhmm. Which is part of the Department of
Commerce,
which is
an interesting
little
I shouldn't say little because I don't know
how big it is,
which is an interesting subsection of the US
government
that not a lot of people seem to
know about. It's very like, a lot of
people know about
wherever Doug Martin and NIST and all these
other places
that do standards.
But the NTIA is different from all of
that. And they everybody knows about the FCC.
Right?
But that's this is different from all of
that.
So,
you know, can you, like, explain to us
what the NTIA does for those who aren't
familiar?
So NTIA, as you said, is
part of the Department of Commerce, which actually
also
hosts,
NIST as one of the more familiar entities
in tech space.
It it hosts very patent office. So NTA
is
one of about a dozen entities that all
vaguely related to
commerce, the economy,
and they are
housed under the secretary of commerce or a
cabinet level
department
unlike the FCC, which is an independent regulatory
entity
established by Congress
and,
is not a
executive branch agency.
So NTIA
is,
technologically,
mandated.
So I was I mean, mandate is, broadly
speaking,
telecommunication
and other technologies. So we dabble in AI,
for example,
that provides advice and administrative functions to the
federal government.
So, traditionally,
until fairly recently,
it was a very small,
part of commerce, probably one of the smaller
parts.
And it had
two
key functions.
Namely,
one is it
was responsible
for the US government Spectrum Administration.
So as listeners may know, is in The
US, Spectrum is managed at licensed Spectrum is
managed by two entities.
So we we think of Spectrum like being
the FCC because we manage the more
visible, so to say, Spectrum that cell phone
carriers and radio stations and TV stations and,
Wi Fi users.
But
for
hundred years or so, I
the US government has also used wide swaths
of the spectrum for their needs, anything from
the military, as you might imagine, to
public safety,
to earth observation,
anything which is won indirectly or directly by,
federal, state, and local government. In that state,
local, more complicated, but all, so it's primarily
federal.
And so they are
the allocator of that spectrum, coordinator of that
spectrum within the federal government
usage.
And they also,
coordinate with the FCC about that spectrum because
obviously, particularly last few years, spectrum has been
kind of a scarce commodity that they don't
make any more of it.
And so,
a lot of
the,
spectrum that does become available
typically
was used by government users before because all
the other spectrum that is
available has already been
doled out to some typically commercial entity. So
that's probably the highest impact entity. Go ahead.
Okay. So so that spectrum that's handed out
to commercial entities is done via reverse auctions,
right, most of the time?
And
not quite. So Okay. I
so clearly, NTIA for government spectrum, they don't
auction anything because that would be peculiar.
For the commercial side,
I
the commercial spectrum is
auctioned.
That's for high profile billion dollar stuff. But
a significant fraction of the spectrum,
even on the commercial side,
is either allocated in some administrative function
or
by industry coordination. So for example, a lot
of a microwave spectrum is not auctioned off.
It is just as a coordinated spectrum coordinator,
because it's largely
geographic separation, and so you don't really need
an auction for that. But, yes, generally speaking,
highest profile spectrum recently
that's been allocated on the FCC side has
been by,
auction.
Not reverse auction. That's typically that was really
only one auction. Oh, okay. Okay. That was
for TV spectrum
that you may have heard about a few
years ago,
where
they got a, the TV stations got paid
to relinquish,
all a part of the spectrum, which is
sold to,
cell providers.
Okay.
Cool. So that
so the NTIA then
looks like the internal regulator
for spectrum usage.
It's the same thing as,
say, the military has an internal regulator for
spectrum usage that's allocated to military use.
And
a TV station might have an internal regulator
or a cell phone company
might have an internal regulator
for, like, we've been allocated this. We need
to make sure we put it on the
right towers in the right place and stuff
like that. So it's that kind of a
position
within Yes. But but facing
government entities, which I assume includes
FBI, CIA.
I assume it includes
air traffic control, ATC.
All of that stuff is all included, I
would I would assume. Yes. This is all
included. So some of it is obviously classified
stuff. Most of it is
unclassified
at least in terms of the
who has it.
I and so it's anything from military radars
to traditionally voice communication
to microwave links to,
links to,
by NASA or our NOAA,
I radars,
Weber radar type system. So
any of that stuff. But, traditionally, it's been
largely
kind of the equivalent of a county courthouse
that has a
thick leather binder with all the households' assignment
in it. So it was
important
but largely
administrative
as in,
it was coordination
to make sure that people don't didn't step
on each other and that people knew what
the other agencies were doing in,
a particular spectrum bands. Alright. But it was
well a totally small staff and
largely sort of say inward looking.
The second function that NTIA has traditionally had
is had that it represents
the US federal government in
international
organizations
that deal with telecommunications.
And we have traditionally, for example,
manage
organizations such as ICANN,
as in the Internet space.
So, for example, they are responsible
in some vague way for
a .com allocation,
administration when that went or for .US most
recently and that. So they have
inverse
non spectrum band issues. They have
administrative and policy functions
for these,
things where the US government historically has had
a wall and even in the Internet space.
Okay.
Alright. Cool. So that's kind of explains. But
there's other things that NTIA does besides just
managing
federal spectrum. Right?
Just normally in its normal business, even before
what we're gonna talk about being added a
few years ago. Right? Yes.
So
NTIA also has had I'd I, you know,
and I don't know if the audience remembers
that there was
some number of years ago,
a program called BTOP,
which was a broadband deployment program that was
one of the early
efforts to bring broadband to underserved
communities. And Adeboye is relatively small,
and time limited,
in that. So
Pentium has had
a kind of
a small role, but not recently
in broadband deployment. But Congress decided,
I as part of the Infrastructure and Jobs
Act,
to allocate
roughly 42 and a half billion dollars
to NTIA
to deploy
a high speed Internet,
generally used term used broadband,
to,
put primarily
rural locations
in The United States.
They also allocated some additional funds, which I
probably won't be talking about today,
to other programs that were not infrastructure,
that are more education
outreach, and so on, which is generally known
as digital equity programs.
And,
but the biggest program
by dollar number
was
this program of Broadband Equity Action Deployment Program
on this speed.
I thought
I was allocated,
to
fulfill essentially
the broadband access mission
of the US government.
Okay. So there's a couple of questions that
immediately come up when we talk about Bead
from what I've read about it in the
past.
The first is, how is broadband defined?
Like, what what is,
like because I know there's a lot a
lot of disagreement.
I mean, a lot of disagreement
over what the word
broadband means.
Yes. And so it is helpful,
if one wants to follow this discussion
to know,
four terms, and I will be using those.
So let me try to define those.
So to get to your first part is
broadband itself.
So
the FCC has defined for its deployment purposes
what qualifies
as broadband.
Deployment for many years,
recent relatively
recently,
changed the definition that,
required 25 megabits download and three megabit upload
speed to 100 megabits download and 20 megabit
download.
That, however, is an FCC definition that is
primarily used for statistical purposes,
not necessarily
is not binding on and, yeah, as it
happens and causality was reversed, it was because
of the law. The law that Congress passed
said that
what qualifies
as
high speed Internet broadband
for NTIA funding purposes
is 100 megabit,
over 20. So a hundred up, a hundred
down, 20 up, I and up.
So
the law defined basically
two types of locations that could receive funding.
Namely,
so called unserved
locations. And this goes to your kind of
definition that we have many of those. Unserved
locations of those that did not have or
do not have 25 megabits,
down,
five, three megabits up.
And underserved locations are those that do not
have hundred slash 20
in that. So those two types of locations,
according to the law, are eligible for funding
under BEED.
The law finally also made a distinction,
that
mattered,
in that because one argument you could make
is that many of the locations, particularly most
recently, actually already have 100 megabit,
download speed in particular,
often provided either by unlicensed fixed wireless or
satellite services.
And so the law defined that,
NTIA should define a term called reliable broadband.
So that's a term of art. And that
doesn't mean what
kind of it doesn't mean that your broadband
doesn't go down.
But it means under the current definition,
broadband that is delivered using
terrestrial services or not satellite.
I and either using fiber,
a coax or cable, HFC,
I DSL,
or on fixed wireless using licensed spectrum. So
typically, that would be provided either by,
the cell companies on their licensed spectrum or
using,
CBRS with 3.5 gigahertz spectrum.
Right. Which would be a wireless Internet service
provider, WISP. Local WISP is what I would
think that's So it could be a WISP
or a ASAL company. Yes. Yeah. Okay.
So
dot meant,
just to give you kind of a flavor
of the numbers, is,
in 2022,
roughly 10%
of US
locations,
so locations, think homes, but it's a little
more general,
did not have access to
hundred megabit broadband.
So right. Most most of those locations are
obviously gonna be in rural areas,
but
not exclusively.
Yeah. Well, a lot of them will also
be actually
neighborhoods with older homes.
Some of them, at least, will be neighborhoods
with older homes in downtown areas
where it's very difficult to dig cable. It's
very difficult to do wire to do fixed
Wi Fi or fixed wireless
because of the buildings and because of just
the terrain.
And
they're
not necessarily wealthy neighborhoods
per se
in downtownish areas.
Or the other thing I could see that
being a lot of would be
multi housing units.
I don't know what they're officially called, like,
but
but apartment complexes
that are
twenty, thirty years old, that were built twenty,
thirty years old
years ago,
and even converted hotels. Hotels have been converted
to housing.
And they just
they're concrete wall.
They're
thick wall. You really can't use fixed wireless
access in these places.
Putting cable through the wall is, like, prohibitively
expensive.
So, in fact, I remember
many years ago when I first got networking,
we were working at a lawyer's office, and
they wanted Ethernet they wanted network in all
their rooms.
And so all these other contractors came in
and said, we'll we'll dig out all your
walls, and we'll put in we'll put in,
you know, cat cat three at the time.
And they said, well, we have asbestos in
the walls. It's gotta be abated.
And they started looking at the cost of
asbestos abatement, and they were like, we just
can't afford to do this. Like, it's just
too much money to run cat three. And
the walls are lath and plaster. It doesn't
work really well with Wi Fi at that
time. I suppose it might be better now,
but back then.
And so my company, not that I owned
it or anything, but the company I worked
for said, we're gonna use
ARCHANET
because it runs over CAT one,
and there's CAT one in the walls for
telco.
And so we're just gonna consume the telco
cables, 50% of the telco cables,
and we'll give you IP. And I only
think it was five meg or I don't
I don't even know. ArcNET is really slow.
So but that's the kind of situation you
run into with these things that that kind
of make it
really hard to get high speed Internet
into some of these locations.
Yes. So
at least
based on so, the availability
was based on
claims by the service providers,
and not so that by necessity.
So maybe as
a a backstop
or as a background,
one of the fundamental
questions that
if somebody hears about, like, oh, yeah. We
want to deploy broadband to all locations that
don't have hundred megabit broadband, say, is the
next natural questions.
How do you know which locations those are?
And
that actually turned out to be a critical
issue
simply because
you have,
two choices.
Namely, one is you just have the government
decide these other locations that don't have it,
but how would they know? I or,
you use a reporting mechanism where the providers
report where they believe or where they are
currently offering,
different speeds of broadband.
So generally speaking,
is that in more urban, multi dwelling units,
apartment buildings
is in recent years,
at least the cable companies claim, it's primarily
been the cable companies,
they can provide a hundred megabit download and
20 megabit upload speed.
Whether that is always truly the case
is up for debate. We can probably discuss
one aspect of that a little bit later
as part of what's known as the challenge
process.
But in general,
the availability
determination on first cut was based on the
declared service availability,
in,
MDUs,
apartment buildings, or in homes or small businesses.
You know, not on necessarily
actual availability,
you're not and as you pointed out, in
many older buildings,
infrastructure the wired infrastructure is often very old,
very hard to replace. And because of a
construction, particularly in, in big cities where you
don't have wood construction,
even installing Wi Fi is challenging
because of wiring or because of propagation.
Yeah. Yeah. And this is this is a
very, like, you know,
this is very contentious. Again, this is another
contentious part of it. Is is the mapping
can the mapping be trusted? What does it
really mean? I know
for WISP, for for for fixed Wi Fi
or for fixed wireless access, FWA,
I know the other problem we run into
a lot of times is
FWA
drops
in terms of
the bandwidth available the further you get away
from the tower.
And so so
they say, we have a tower that serves
a five mile radius around the tower. But
in reality, the people at five miles out
are getting, like, you
know, very low bandwidth.
And the people right up against the tower
are getting great bandwidth. And they say, well,
but it's an even dispersion.
Well, not really.
And
that's certainly been
a concern. I
and so fixed wireless
raises its own set of concerns and particularly
so maybe just a little bit of background.
Until relatively recently,
the Federal Communications Commission, Commission, since we talked
about them early on,
on its job was to catalog
availability of broadband.
They have been doing this for
ten plus years,
and they had a data collection, I dot
catalog broadband
at the level
of the census block. So they basically said,
hey, providers,
twice a year, you have to submit a
form,
which was known as form four seventy seven.
That's why you see that often listed on
FCC website
that
we're able to yep. We offer this is
our highest speed that we offer in that
particular census block.
I'm
that data has been collected for a while
and has been used for a number of
broadband funding programs.
Then it became clear
as more locations
be, were indeed served by higher speed broadband
that that granularity,
that's several hundred homes in many cases,
I it's just not sufficient. So often what
would happen is, you would have a few
homes that actually did have that speed, but
the majority
or a significant fraction
of that census block did not have the
actual speed because it was at the edge
of a service territory.
So it overstated broadband availability.
So
Congress mandated
in some corporate data act that
the FCC actually had to collect broadband availability
at every single individual
street address,
that
could be served by broadband as in there
was an actual building there, I thought, would
subscribe to it, and and not not just
a plot of land.
And
they
for the first time in the early, I
well, a few years ago, started putting out
in the first map was published in 2022.
I we have a created a map of
every single,
residential and small business location
with a contractor,
that would do that.
That clearly is quite challenging because
there is no single registry of even street
addresses, let alone broadband availability
in The United States. It is not like
a,
US geological survey or the census or the
postal the postal service.
They don't have, like, a master address list
of every single location, particularly in rural areas
of where houses may not actually have a
street address.
Or the street address might be on the
house as in somebody painted and made up
a number, but it's not registered anywhere.
Or where plots get subdivided
into two units where you have suddenly oh,
you have an old house and, right,
kids buy it, build a new house on
the large property.
And
nobody really knows about it in any formal
way beyond maybe the local tax assessor. I
who Yeah. Keeps track of that.
Or or or accessory units as they're called
now. Rental units built on your same property.
Right? So you build a unit to rent
out for Airbnb or Vrbo or whatever, you
know, all these various services they have. And
nobody actually tracks that in some areas. It's
just it's just built.
And, like, you get permits on it and
stuff like that, but,
like, there's no high speed Internet
necessarily or broadband to that
at all.
So, you know, then you have to think
about how do you classify that? Does it
need it? Like, it's a rental unit.
Does do people care? I don't know. You
know? There's, like, all these questions that come
in to So we had lots of discussions
on
surveys.
Come on. In the vast majority of cases,
it's relatively straightforward.
It's a unit. If it's rental or even
a mobile home, type of, unit
where people live more or less permanently
and if
available, then some fraction might subscribe to services.
But there are
areas
or locations
that,
for example,
are vacation homes,
hunting lodgers.
And that
that look from a satellite perspective,
I'd like a home as in it's an
enclosed building. It's not just a shed.
And somebody could actually live there. But maybe
they don't, to your point, don't expect to
actually
subscribe to Internet service because they're only spending,
like, the fall hunting season there. And five
would they subscribe to broadband there. If we're
lucky, they have cell phone service there.
So
there's some of that. I've
and you also have as actually has been
a problem, like in, you have homes that
are no longer occupied.
But that didn't turn out to
be, percentage wise, is not as larger problem.
It's at the margins.
Just simply cataloging
all the locations
and
making sure that with service providers,
we port service at that location.
Just as a
for example,
is because many of these locations don't have
an agreed upon street address as in they
might be listed as,
whatever,
12000,
County Highway 95,
and they might have a name on it.
And they may have some other street name
based on some historical,
name that was used when based,
houses were built.
They may have only a rural route number
in some cases because they don't get mail
delivery.
And so they have a,
the service provider might actually have the billing
record for that location
under a different street address than the homeowner
gets mail delivered or that It's
not packages for.
What is what is bead what's the objective?
I mean, there's it sounds like there's lots
of ways to count houses and whatnot, but
what what is bead's on top of this?
The objective
is very simple in one sentence. Tom's trying
to bring us back to reality.
The objective is to get,
hundred megabit broadband to every single location that
currently does not have it. That's the one
sentence objective.
So for that, you have to basically do
two things, then we decide who didn't have
it. That's all all of our discussion about
houses.
And you have to decide
who
is gonna deploy broadband how to those locations
because some of those,
think Alaska or Wyoming
or Puerto Rico
are
challenging in a variety of ways. I as
in they may be on an,
Indian reservation. They may be,
in
remote areas that don't even have roads,
like Alaska.
I or they may be in,
not a state, but a territory like Puerto
Rico. And so you have
those two issues. But the basic goal is
where possible, again,
money availability
may make that infeasible
on every location that currently does not have
it. With 10%
starting out,
you should get at least a hundred megabits,
preferably more.
So how do how does how does Bede
keep this just from being a piggy bank
for the largest,
telcos and just, free money for them?
Yes. So,
a bid is and that's,
That that's another huge area of argument, by
the way, Tom. So
yeah. I know. I know. And
so
a simple question, a,
a longer
answer is so
I
unlike previous,
federal programs, so as your your listeners probably
know, is the FCC in particular, but also,
US Department of Agriculture and a bunch of
other federal agency during COVID.
I have
tried to cover
these locations that I mentioned,
and not.
Generally, in both cases,
primarily
agriculture and the FCC had a central bidding
mechanism where the companies typically lodge, but not
necessarily,
would bid on locations or areas,
and then get funding to build out those
locations.
I forbid
the mechanism
because
of
the experience that,
during some of his grant programs states had
that let them to try something else
is actually delegated down to the states. So
every state and territory
has
a role to determine who is gonna get
that money, and they can impose
conditions on that. They can't exclude somebody. As
I said, you're too big. We can't we
won't let you bid.
But they can certainly
include
providers that are
not big. Actually, as it turns out,
for many of those rural areas,
the neighbor provider is like one of the
West that,
Wes was talking about,
or
more recently because of other earlier funding programs
is your local,
co op electric utilities, what are called rural
electric co ops that, provide electric service or
and have provided electric service since the nineteen
thirties and nineteen forties.
I
and many of those earlier programs have actually
started to dole out money to that. And
as
early indications are, where we are in BEED
right now, is,
many of our smaller providers actually are bidding
on it
because
we are already in that county or we
are at least closer by, and they have
their business model is more attractive even with
subsidy than for the large ones. So
Yeah.
But states And and people do startups. I'm
sorry? Yeah. And people do startups in this
space as well. People people actually look at
the grant and say there's enough grant money
for me to get started
digging enough
getting enough passings
to get a business started to all start.
Yeah. Right. So Kind of a So I'm
curious.
There's been a number of people in the
network engineering community who have,
basically started their own provider just so they
can get their own service. They're out in
the middle of nowhere.
What's the feasibility of using a program like
this? Say you buy some farmland in Missouri
and you can get a few people to
kind of band with you. Is that money
available for someone who wants to do something
like that? Yes. So
the constraints
are really in two dimensions. Namely, one is
the areas that you bid on is in
many states, about half of states really, are
in
chunks of area as opposed to individual locations.
So you can't just have one location or
10. You probably have to serve at least
in most states, I would say a few
hundred in most cases.
So your super micro startup that is just
serving a neighborhood
might have trouble if they don't want to
professionalize
sort of side to do that.
The second part is
so that's
it probably doesn't make sense to apply
for just a few location unless you're already
in the business, like,
for other reasons.
You can extend that. And indeed, there have
been winners in the early grant cycles that
have already concluded,
like in Nevada and Louisiana, which are two
states, fairly rural states, where the process has
already finished,
the allocation process,
is that you actually had windows that only
had, like, 50 locations because they were units
that small.
The second one,
which is somewhat state specific
is
that states have the obligation
to ensure that any bidder
is actually financially and technically capable of delivering
on their
bid
because
of bad experiences in previous grand rounds that
were done by the FCC and other in
state entities and USDA.
You had entities that took the money
and let's say let's be
charitable. They believed that they actually could deliver
and then discovered
that was harder than they thought.
As in,
their business model didn't quite work out or
they couldn't get financing
or
they didn't have a technology capability
or people
all started started more recently subscribing to Starlink
instead. So they didn't get the customers and
so they had to
close down the business overall or whatever it
happened to be. There's been a number of
companies, unfortunately.
I
both
parts of big companies that took lands and,
a number of smaller companies
where one company that's got,
his name is,
cited quite often as kind of a
glowing example called LTD.
And, to bid on a lot of FCC
funds and ended up,
not getting those NBN because the perception was
it just couldn't deliver it. And others who
have defaulted, others smaller to midsize providers
who have defaulted on their early obligations. So
your hypothetical neighborhood association
would have to show to the satisfaction
of a state
that they are capable financially and technically
to deliver
service because
you don't,
a, there's a fraud risk. People will take
money and run, but there's also a risk
since this is a one time program.
If you find yourself, you bid it out
to a promising looking neighborhood association,
that didn't quite get back together, then all
those locations in year two and three when
it's obvious that they're not gonna deliver,
and they say, sorry. It didn't work out.
We tried, but, man, it didn't quite we
can't do it.
Then what are you gonna do with those
locations?
Because the program is over.
You may not have money left to do
it, and there's no obvious way to reallocate
the money for whatever reasons. So,
you have a
a bit of a risk that the state
takes at that point.
Cool.
Well, we actually need to wrap up. This
is a very fascinating topic, though. And I
don't think a lot of network engineers know
about all of the side revenue or side
avenues to go into to think about
starting a WISP or, you know, starting a
small business doing this or,
just, you know, all these little providers that
might be out there doing stuff.
So, yeah, I don't know.
Any more comments before we wrap up? Because
I know it's, like, we got, like, two
minutes, so we need to wrap
up. So anything hinting, before we wrap up?
And we we can continue the conversation later
if you want to if you want to
create another do another recording. But Yeah. We
can do that. Because I started at the,
kind of a beginning where we are it's
just to kind of give a a snapshot
of wherever a program is. So currently,
on
most states have completed what is known as
the challenge process where community organizations
could
collect the maps that the FCC
based on provider input provided,
which then,
made additional locations available or removed some locations
from consideration.
And
then states will be in the allocation phase,
which will be taking place assuming when your
administration
doesn't change its mind. I'm on all of
that,
this year largely. And then,
service providers have four years to build out
service. So we're talking
starting in 2026
largely. I know I'm on reasonable prediction. Like
I said, three states,
have already completed that. They have they can
start now.
But we have a,
53 entities, states, and territories will probably start
building in 2026.
Cool. Awesome. Well, let's do another show on
this because this is interesting, but we do
need to wrap up. So Henning, where can
people find you or follow you if they
want to? I I assume
you might you might blog or at least
LinkedIn or something. Right?
Excuse me. I'm not currently blogging.
Okay.
So I'm on,
Blue Sky,
so they can follow me then.
And my last name is officially unique. You
probably won't have difficulty finding
it. Okay. We'll put that in the show
notes. Alright. Tom, where can people find you?
LinkedIn.
So, so easy. Alright. I'm Russ White. You
can find me here on the hedge
at rule 11 Tech. You can find me
on LinkedIn and on x as routing geek.
And I don't know. I'm I'm not on
all those places all the time, but I'm
fairly easy to find. So if you wanna
find me, make suggestions for the show or
whatever,
we thank you very much for listening all
the way to the
bitter end of this episode of The Hedge.
We know that we live in an attention
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next time.