1 00:00:00,719 --> 00:00:02,720 Join us as we gather around the hedge, 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,700 where we dig into technology, business, and culture 3 00:00:05,759 --> 00:00:08,099 with the finest minds in computer networking. 4 00:00:20,814 --> 00:00:21,714 Hello, Tom. 5 00:00:22,574 --> 00:00:25,710 Hey, Russ. The plant is getting lots of 6 00:00:25,869 --> 00:00:28,109 sunlight. I'm happy to see that. That's that's 7 00:00:28,109 --> 00:00:30,750 a good thing. Yes. It's happy? It's happy. 8 00:00:30,750 --> 00:00:31,250 Yes. 9 00:00:31,629 --> 00:00:34,049 You're you have empty space on your bookshelf 10 00:00:34,109 --> 00:00:36,189 that that's that can't stand. You need to 11 00:00:36,189 --> 00:00:36,929 buy books. 12 00:00:38,109 --> 00:00:38,609 Okay. 13 00:00:40,189 --> 00:00:40,965 I'll do it. 14 00:00:42,645 --> 00:00:44,484 So I used to watch this this radio 15 00:00:44,484 --> 00:00:45,924 guy. He was a radio guy. He did 16 00:00:45,924 --> 00:00:47,685 a TV show at one point. And he 17 00:00:47,765 --> 00:00:49,524 in one of his first very first TV 18 00:00:49,524 --> 00:00:50,024 shows, 19 00:00:50,484 --> 00:00:52,725 some listener of his wrote in well, they 20 00:00:52,725 --> 00:00:54,965 wrote in questions or whatever. And one of 21 00:00:54,965 --> 00:00:56,184 his listeners said, 22 00:00:56,740 --> 00:00:58,740 this is such an impressive offer share. Look 23 00:00:58,740 --> 00:01:01,060 at all those books behind you. I wanna 24 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:02,740 know what those books are and if you've 25 00:01:02,740 --> 00:01:03,399 read them. 26 00:01:04,260 --> 00:01:06,579 So on air, he pulled one of the 27 00:01:06,579 --> 00:01:08,659 box. It was a box that had books 28 00:01:08,659 --> 00:01:10,375 printed on the front of it. And he, 29 00:01:10,375 --> 00:01:13,015 like, folded it up and said, here, ship 30 00:01:13,015 --> 00:01:14,534 this to that listener so they can have 31 00:01:14,534 --> 00:01:15,275 the books. 32 00:01:16,215 --> 00:01:16,875 Oh, yeah. 33 00:01:18,694 --> 00:01:19,194 Nice. 34 00:01:19,894 --> 00:01:21,594 It was like, okay. 35 00:01:22,980 --> 00:01:25,459 And we have Yvonne with us who is 36 00:01:25,459 --> 00:01:27,879 looking kind of concerned and overwhelmed 37 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:28,900 and and 38 00:01:29,939 --> 00:01:32,260 Oh, Yvonne's okay. It's just a busy day, 39 00:01:32,260 --> 00:01:35,060 and so I'm trying to sort through things 40 00:01:35,060 --> 00:01:35,799 in my head. 41 00:01:36,180 --> 00:01:37,394 But the good news is 42 00:01:37,954 --> 00:01:40,114 it's Friday here, so we got a couple 43 00:01:40,114 --> 00:01:42,994 days to take a breath. Yes. It's Friday 44 00:01:42,994 --> 00:01:43,494 everywhere. 45 00:01:45,954 --> 00:01:48,754 So we're gonna start today by talking about 46 00:01:48,754 --> 00:01:50,295 architecture versus process. 47 00:01:50,939 --> 00:01:53,500 This is a particular frustration of mine for 48 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:54,399 various reasons. 49 00:01:55,579 --> 00:01:58,159 I think it is true throughout my career 50 00:01:58,780 --> 00:02:00,780 that I have been in perhaps two or 51 00:02:00,780 --> 00:02:02,879 three places where they have a proper architecture, 52 00:02:04,025 --> 00:02:05,384 And most of the time, they have a 53 00:02:05,384 --> 00:02:07,325 process that they call an architecture. 54 00:02:08,745 --> 00:02:10,664 So I don't know. Any thoughts on that 55 00:02:10,664 --> 00:02:12,664 before I start rambling on my 56 00:02:13,944 --> 00:02:16,104 Well, I I guess my question is when 57 00:02:16,104 --> 00:02:18,525 when you say, like, to me, an architecture 58 00:02:18,584 --> 00:02:20,620 is one thing and a process is another. 59 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:22,300 Mhmm. They are 60 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,419 integrated and they do overlap. Yes. 61 00:02:26,199 --> 00:02:28,439 Are are you arguing that one is more 62 00:02:28,439 --> 00:02:31,000 important than the other? Like, what's what's what's 63 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,995 what's your when you say architecture versus process, 64 00:02:32,995 --> 00:02:35,094 what do you mean? So not particularly. 65 00:02:36,754 --> 00:02:38,834 You need both. And I would say the 66 00:02:38,834 --> 00:02:41,074 better your architecture is, the less process you 67 00:02:41,074 --> 00:02:41,574 need 68 00:02:41,875 --> 00:02:43,634 to some degree. There's always gonna be some 69 00:02:43,634 --> 00:02:44,849 minimum amount of process. 70 00:02:45,730 --> 00:02:47,490 But if you have an architecture, which I 71 00:02:47,490 --> 00:02:49,110 would define as a set of goals, 72 00:02:49,490 --> 00:02:52,290 I know where the company's going. I know 73 00:02:52,290 --> 00:02:54,370 what the network needs to do or look 74 00:02:54,370 --> 00:02:55,670 like in five years. 75 00:02:56,290 --> 00:02:58,715 I know how the network is layered. I 76 00:02:58,715 --> 00:02:59,215 know 77 00:02:59,835 --> 00:03:00,335 both 78 00:03:00,715 --> 00:03:01,855 vertically and horizontally. 79 00:03:02,555 --> 00:03:03,615 I know, like, 80 00:03:04,074 --> 00:03:06,735 what our theory and and our 81 00:03:07,435 --> 00:03:09,915 philosophy, if you will, it's not necessarily a 82 00:03:09,915 --> 00:03:12,360 good word for it, but anyway, what why 83 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,620 we divide things the way we divide them. 84 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:16,540 I know why, you know, we've chosen 85 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,879 this transport mechanism because it is flexible. It 86 00:03:19,879 --> 00:03:21,580 can support lots of use cases, 87 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:23,980 whatever it is. 88 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:25,260 And so 89 00:03:25,885 --> 00:03:27,185 all of those things, 90 00:03:27,564 --> 00:03:29,405 the more you know those things, the lighter 91 00:03:29,405 --> 00:03:31,805 weight your process can be because somebody can 92 00:03:31,805 --> 00:03:33,805 come with come to you and say, I 93 00:03:33,805 --> 00:03:36,305 wanna develop this new application on the network. 94 00:03:36,764 --> 00:03:37,985 And you're like, okay. 95 00:03:38,365 --> 00:03:39,985 It fits this way. 96 00:03:40,599 --> 00:03:42,520 Right? Because I already know what I'm trying 97 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:43,500 to make the network 98 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:46,219 look like over the next five years. 99 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:48,060 If I don't have an architecture, 100 00:03:49,479 --> 00:03:51,099 everything becomes the process. 101 00:03:51,879 --> 00:03:52,379 Everything 102 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:53,979 is the process. 103 00:03:54,694 --> 00:03:56,854 And everything is a one off. Everything is 104 00:03:56,854 --> 00:03:57,914 a one off process. 105 00:03:59,094 --> 00:03:59,834 And so 106 00:04:01,014 --> 00:04:03,014 I think we do a lot more process 107 00:04:03,014 --> 00:04:04,155 than we do architecture 108 00:04:04,614 --> 00:04:06,314 in our world. That's my experience 109 00:04:06,854 --> 00:04:07,710 with with 110 00:04:08,270 --> 00:04:10,370 being in networking for a long time. 111 00:04:10,830 --> 00:04:12,990 I don't know. Does that answer your question, 112 00:04:12,990 --> 00:04:13,490 Yvonne? 113 00:04:14,270 --> 00:04:16,129 Yeah. One of my one of my colleagues 114 00:04:16,270 --> 00:04:18,270 shared a quote with me. He he attributed 115 00:04:18,270 --> 00:04:20,205 it to Churchill and said, you know, first 116 00:04:20,205 --> 00:04:22,205 we make our buildings and then our buildings 117 00:04:22,205 --> 00:04:24,764 make us. Yep. And I think that that 118 00:04:24,764 --> 00:04:27,324 happens often too. Like, you you build your 119 00:04:27,324 --> 00:04:27,824 infrastructure 120 00:04:28,685 --> 00:04:31,345 based on an architecture, and then that architecture 121 00:04:31,645 --> 00:04:32,790 may drive your process. 122 00:04:33,350 --> 00:04:35,110 But then you need to make changes to 123 00:04:35,110 --> 00:04:35,930 your architecture, 124 00:04:37,189 --> 00:04:39,449 but the process doesn't always follow. 125 00:04:40,069 --> 00:04:42,970 Yeah. The the the reverse can also happen 126 00:04:43,350 --> 00:04:44,805 that instead of 127 00:04:46,725 --> 00:04:48,845 asking the question, what problem are we trying 128 00:04:48,845 --> 00:04:50,884 to solve and build your architecture based on 129 00:04:50,884 --> 00:04:51,384 that, 130 00:04:52,324 --> 00:04:54,664 you're building it based on either your organizational 131 00:04:54,964 --> 00:04:57,365 structure or the processes that you have in 132 00:04:57,365 --> 00:04:57,865 place, 133 00:04:58,324 --> 00:05:00,470 and those drive technology 134 00:05:00,849 --> 00:05:01,990 in ways that 135 00:05:02,529 --> 00:05:03,269 are minimally 136 00:05:03,810 --> 00:05:04,310 inefficient 137 00:05:04,849 --> 00:05:07,889 or, you know, worst case, just flat non 138 00:05:07,889 --> 00:05:08,389 functional. 139 00:05:08,930 --> 00:05:10,689 So it's I mean, it's an important thing 140 00:05:10,689 --> 00:05:12,805 to think about, like what, you know, 141 00:05:13,664 --> 00:05:15,284 is the tail wagging the dog 142 00:05:15,584 --> 00:05:18,004 from a process versus an architecture standpoint. 143 00:05:18,384 --> 00:05:21,264 Yeah. Right. Right. I mean, I think probably 144 00:05:21,264 --> 00:05:22,404 most of us have seen, 145 00:05:23,425 --> 00:05:24,964 if you start out with a network, 146 00:05:25,509 --> 00:05:28,069 like there is an architecture, right? Whether or 147 00:05:28,069 --> 00:05:30,069 not it is an intentional thing, or whether 148 00:05:30,069 --> 00:05:31,670 or not it is understood the same by 149 00:05:31,670 --> 00:05:34,089 everybody else, architecture always exists. 150 00:05:34,709 --> 00:05:36,649 I think it gets, it gets, 151 00:05:37,189 --> 00:05:37,689 becomes 152 00:05:38,485 --> 00:05:40,404 very expensive for the business to maintain if 153 00:05:40,404 --> 00:05:42,425 it's not intentional, but it remains nevertheless. 154 00:05:43,604 --> 00:05:46,664 And sometimes it morphs and grows organically, and 155 00:05:47,524 --> 00:05:49,764 I've worked on networks like this. There was 156 00:05:49,764 --> 00:05:52,019 one service provider network, it was kind of 157 00:05:52,099 --> 00:05:54,599 what's our latest revenue opportunity, go do that. 158 00:05:55,220 --> 00:05:57,699 And we've never done that before, we've never 159 00:05:57,699 --> 00:06:00,339 built X, Y, X product, doesn't matter, just 160 00:06:00,339 --> 00:06:01,620 figure out how to do it, what boxes 161 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:03,300 do we need, just plug them in, wire 162 00:06:03,300 --> 00:06:05,620 them up, and then pretty soon you get 163 00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:07,639 to where the next big revenue opportunity 164 00:06:08,024 --> 00:06:10,125 is at odds with the last big revenue 165 00:06:10,264 --> 00:06:12,425 opportunity or the revenue opportunity from a year 166 00:06:12,425 --> 00:06:12,925 ago. 167 00:06:13,384 --> 00:06:13,865 And, 168 00:06:14,504 --> 00:06:17,225 and then you're looking at massive costs to 169 00:06:17,225 --> 00:06:19,464 make it serve both. And so you have 170 00:06:19,464 --> 00:06:21,930 to say either say no to somebody or 171 00:06:21,930 --> 00:06:23,850 say yes to everybody and deliver poorly for 172 00:06:23,850 --> 00:06:25,689 everybody. Like, it's just it's kind of a 173 00:06:25,689 --> 00:06:26,990 cascading set of 174 00:06:27,290 --> 00:06:29,689 of things that happen, when architecture is not 175 00:06:29,689 --> 00:06:32,490 intentional has been my experience. Yeah. Yeah. And 176 00:06:32,490 --> 00:06:34,490 in fact, I think it's even worse in 177 00:06:34,490 --> 00:06:35,629 the overlay world 178 00:06:36,644 --> 00:06:39,544 because it's very easy to build orthogonal, 179 00:06:40,404 --> 00:06:41,305 non interoperable 180 00:06:41,925 --> 00:06:42,425 overlays 181 00:06:43,204 --> 00:06:44,964 and say, oh, it's okay. We'll just throw 182 00:06:44,964 --> 00:06:46,345 another overlay on there. 183 00:06:47,204 --> 00:06:47,704 Yeah. 184 00:06:48,324 --> 00:06:50,324 You know, then you get 15 different overlays 185 00:06:50,324 --> 00:06:52,009 and then somebody says, oh, I wanna connect 186 00:06:52,009 --> 00:06:53,709 the two overlays. Oh, no. 187 00:06:54,410 --> 00:06:56,970 Oh, how is that gonna work? Or you 188 00:06:56,970 --> 00:06:59,129 come back to the not network operations center 189 00:06:59,129 --> 00:07:00,910 or the TAC or whatever, and you say, 190 00:07:01,529 --> 00:07:02,509 oh, it's broken. 191 00:07:03,794 --> 00:07:05,235 Yeah. How do I even know what the 192 00:07:05,235 --> 00:07:06,995 state is supposed to look like on this 193 00:07:06,995 --> 00:07:07,495 particular 194 00:07:07,954 --> 00:07:08,854 piece of hardware? 195 00:07:09,394 --> 00:07:10,914 Like, there is no way for me to 196 00:07:10,914 --> 00:07:12,774 know what the state's supposed to look like. 197 00:07:12,914 --> 00:07:15,254 Because the state's one thing in this overlay, 198 00:07:15,394 --> 00:07:16,935 it's another thing in that overlay, 199 00:07:17,290 --> 00:07:19,129 another thing over there in that third overlay, 200 00:07:19,129 --> 00:07:20,670 and it's different for the hardware. 201 00:07:21,370 --> 00:07:23,149 Like, it it just becomes 202 00:07:23,529 --> 00:07:24,990 a combinatorial explosion, 203 00:07:25,449 --> 00:07:27,470 and it becomes impossible to maintain. 204 00:07:28,330 --> 00:07:29,930 The thing that I think is interesting when 205 00:07:29,930 --> 00:07:32,795 that happens, what you're describing, Russ, is, how 206 00:07:32,795 --> 00:07:35,035 the different personalities respond when that become when 207 00:07:35,035 --> 00:07:36,014 it sort of 208 00:07:36,475 --> 00:07:36,975 metastasizes 209 00:07:37,355 --> 00:07:38,334 into that case, 210 00:07:39,115 --> 00:07:40,955 almost always you'll get at least a few 211 00:07:40,955 --> 00:07:41,455 responses. 212 00:07:41,995 --> 00:07:43,675 Someone's just like, well, you need to have 213 00:07:43,675 --> 00:07:45,699 a smarter ops center. Yeah. Oh, yes. Or 214 00:07:45,699 --> 00:07:47,139 you need to have you need to have 215 00:07:47,139 --> 00:07:48,899 smarter managers that aren't so dumb and know 216 00:07:48,899 --> 00:07:50,899 how to make better technical decisions or smarter, 217 00:07:50,899 --> 00:07:52,659 smarter, smarter is always some people's answer. And 218 00:07:52,659 --> 00:07:54,339 then other people are like, you need to 219 00:07:54,339 --> 00:07:56,740 make it simpler. And, but very few of 220 00:07:56,740 --> 00:07:58,500 these people say, let's look at 221 00:07:59,235 --> 00:08:01,474 we need to the architecture is the problem 222 00:08:01,474 --> 00:08:02,995 here, and we need to we need to 223 00:08:02,995 --> 00:08:05,014 work there. I've I've found very few people, 224 00:08:05,555 --> 00:08:08,214 say that as a as an alternative. 225 00:08:08,675 --> 00:08:10,935 Yeah. Well and once it's instantiated, 226 00:08:11,794 --> 00:08:12,294 like, 227 00:08:12,949 --> 00:08:15,350 architecture is hard to fix. Like, it's it's 228 00:08:15,350 --> 00:08:17,370 hard to change once it exists. 229 00:08:17,750 --> 00:08:20,330 Right? Which is why you get overlays 230 00:08:20,949 --> 00:08:23,110 in some cases. Some you know? And and 231 00:08:23,110 --> 00:08:25,750 I'm not I'm not anti overlay. Sometimes they 232 00:08:25,750 --> 00:08:27,050 solve a real problem 233 00:08:27,415 --> 00:08:28,875 and provide a layer of abstraction 234 00:08:29,334 --> 00:08:30,555 that's helpful and necessary. 235 00:08:31,895 --> 00:08:33,975 But I I think a lot of times, 236 00:08:33,975 --> 00:08:35,754 like, we we end up in a position 237 00:08:36,535 --> 00:08:39,115 for business reasons or or otherwise 238 00:08:39,654 --> 00:08:41,835 that we have an architecture that's suboptimal, 239 00:08:42,590 --> 00:08:44,210 but it's really expensive 240 00:08:44,750 --> 00:08:47,009 or nearly impossible to change. 241 00:08:47,470 --> 00:08:50,029 Yeah. And and that that creates its own 242 00:08:50,029 --> 00:08:52,290 set of challenges, a lot of, 243 00:08:53,029 --> 00:08:55,490 a lot of which are fixed 244 00:08:55,790 --> 00:08:56,290 by 245 00:08:57,225 --> 00:08:58,204 extra process. 246 00:08:58,664 --> 00:09:01,464 Yep. That's exactly right. That that's that's my 247 00:09:01,464 --> 00:09:03,964 thesis is that if you don't have sufficient 248 00:09:04,184 --> 00:09:04,684 architecture, 249 00:09:05,304 --> 00:09:07,325 you end up replacing the architecture 250 00:09:07,784 --> 00:09:10,480 with a process. For instance, you have two 251 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:11,139 or three 252 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:12,019 disjoint, 253 00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:14,259 overlays. 254 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,559 Again, overlays, like you said, Yvonne, there's nothing 255 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,559 wrong with overlays. Overlays are great. They solve 256 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,139 problems. It's a layer of abstraction. It's a 257 00:09:21,279 --> 00:09:22,259 way of modularizing 258 00:09:22,639 --> 00:09:23,300 your network 259 00:09:23,705 --> 00:09:26,504 vertically rather than horizontally. That's all great. But 260 00:09:26,504 --> 00:09:28,024 if you have two overlays that are doing 261 00:09:28,024 --> 00:09:30,605 different things in different places and their purposes 262 00:09:30,665 --> 00:09:32,825 are at odds with one another, what ends 263 00:09:32,825 --> 00:09:35,304 up happening is instead of trying to fix 264 00:09:35,304 --> 00:09:35,965 the architecture, 265 00:09:36,345 --> 00:09:38,709 you create a process that says go check 266 00:09:38,709 --> 00:09:39,610 both overlays 267 00:09:40,070 --> 00:09:42,409 before I go install this new thing. 268 00:09:42,950 --> 00:09:44,870 Right? Oh, now I have a I gotta 269 00:09:44,870 --> 00:09:46,629 I gotta buy a router to replace that 270 00:09:46,629 --> 00:09:49,110 router. Well, now I have to check both 271 00:09:49,110 --> 00:09:49,610 overlays. 272 00:09:50,625 --> 00:09:52,644 Now I've replaced a good architecture 273 00:09:53,105 --> 00:09:54,245 with a process, 274 00:09:55,024 --> 00:09:57,985 and that is a failing game. That's you're 275 00:09:57,985 --> 00:09:59,605 never going to make that work. 276 00:10:00,465 --> 00:10:03,089 Well and the the problem too is that 277 00:10:04,350 --> 00:10:07,950 many processes can be automated, but typically if 278 00:10:07,950 --> 00:10:08,690 you're you're 279 00:10:09,389 --> 00:10:09,889 fixing, 280 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:12,909 an architectural problem with the process, there has 281 00:10:12,909 --> 00:10:14,909 to be a human in the loop. Yeah. 282 00:10:14,909 --> 00:10:16,144 And we all all know, 283 00:10:16,764 --> 00:10:18,365 there there are a few problems with that. 284 00:10:18,365 --> 00:10:20,465 One is scale because 285 00:10:21,004 --> 00:10:23,165 people are expensive and there's a limited number 286 00:10:23,165 --> 00:10:23,825 of them. 287 00:10:24,205 --> 00:10:25,904 And but the other is, 288 00:10:26,925 --> 00:10:29,129 people in general have a higher failure rate. 289 00:10:30,009 --> 00:10:32,490 Rate. You know, they make mistakes, right? So 290 00:10:32,490 --> 00:10:34,509 you've got both of those problems. 291 00:10:35,049 --> 00:10:37,870 And even if you do try to to 292 00:10:38,090 --> 00:10:38,990 automate it, 293 00:10:39,610 --> 00:10:41,210 now you've got a whole another layer of 294 00:10:41,210 --> 00:10:43,875 abstraction or a whole another interaction surface that 295 00:10:43,875 --> 00:10:45,335 you have to manage. Yeah. 296 00:10:46,035 --> 00:10:47,095 And again, 297 00:10:47,475 --> 00:10:49,075 automation is a great thing. We love it. 298 00:10:49,075 --> 00:10:50,835 It's super important. It's the only way to 299 00:10:50,835 --> 00:10:53,014 scale beyond a certain point in your network. 300 00:10:53,555 --> 00:10:54,055 But, 301 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:56,519 you know, you you end up with an 302 00:10:56,519 --> 00:10:59,080 automation system that's more business logic to work 303 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:00,059 around your architecture 304 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,220 or flaws in your architecture 305 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:04,300 than to actually 306 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:09,225 update, maintain, support your network. Yeah. Mean time 307 00:11:09,225 --> 00:11:12,045 between failures or mean time between mistakes, 308 00:11:13,065 --> 00:11:15,165 that's the big one. Mean time between mistakes. 309 00:11:15,384 --> 00:11:16,665 So, you know, you talk about I'm glad 310 00:11:16,665 --> 00:11:18,365 I don't have that metric for myself. 311 00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:22,139 Me too. So, 312 00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:24,360 you know, you talk about you talk about, 313 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,680 like, people using tools and stuff like this 314 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:28,840 and and trying to automate things. So I 315 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:29,340 remember 316 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,639 one time many years ago, and I owned 317 00:11:31,639 --> 00:11:33,565 this house, and there were a set of 318 00:11:33,565 --> 00:11:35,404 stairs in the garage going up to a 319 00:11:35,404 --> 00:11:36,625 room above the garage. 320 00:11:37,004 --> 00:11:38,764 And I decided to cut a hole in 321 00:11:38,764 --> 00:11:41,245 the wall, build a dormer, and incorporate the 322 00:11:41,245 --> 00:11:43,245 space above the garage into the house instead 323 00:11:43,245 --> 00:11:44,460 of making it storage space, 324 00:11:45,179 --> 00:11:47,200 which means that I went to rip the 325 00:11:47,340 --> 00:11:48,000 the the stairs 326 00:11:48,540 --> 00:11:49,679 out and make it into 327 00:11:50,139 --> 00:11:52,000 shelving space on the side of the garage. 328 00:11:52,540 --> 00:11:54,139 I know that all sounds crazy, but it 329 00:11:54,139 --> 00:11:56,399 it actually wasn't necessarily that hard. But, anyway, 330 00:11:57,995 --> 00:12:00,095 and when I got to the bottom stair, 331 00:12:02,235 --> 00:12:03,454 there must have been 332 00:12:04,475 --> 00:12:05,134 a hundred 333 00:12:05,514 --> 00:12:06,014 nails 334 00:12:07,274 --> 00:12:09,294 in the corners of that platform. 335 00:12:10,610 --> 00:12:12,870 And I'm pretty convinced that what happened was 336 00:12:13,410 --> 00:12:14,629 was that it was easier 337 00:12:15,009 --> 00:12:16,550 to empty the nail gun 338 00:12:18,129 --> 00:12:19,430 by pulling the trigger 339 00:12:20,690 --> 00:12:23,269 than it was to empty the nail gun 340 00:12:23,330 --> 00:12:25,889 by releasing all the little doodads you gotta 341 00:12:25,889 --> 00:12:26,389 do 342 00:12:26,815 --> 00:12:28,274 to get the nails out. 343 00:12:29,134 --> 00:12:30,914 That's what I that's what I think. 344 00:12:31,774 --> 00:12:33,375 So you think they were done and needed 345 00:12:33,375 --> 00:12:34,975 to umother nail gun and they just did 346 00:12:34,975 --> 00:12:37,154 it by nailing the nails into the board? 347 00:12:37,214 --> 00:12:39,632 Yep. Just bam bam bam bam bam bam 348 00:12:39,632 --> 00:12:41,330 bam. And, you know It's gonna be wasteful, 349 00:12:41,330 --> 00:12:42,470 but It is. 350 00:12:42,850 --> 00:12:44,470 But but, you know, 351 00:12:45,409 --> 00:12:47,169 they they had a process. They have to 352 00:12:47,169 --> 00:12:49,649 empty the nail gun before they leave the 353 00:12:49,649 --> 00:12:51,269 job. And, like, 354 00:12:52,049 --> 00:12:52,710 you know, 355 00:12:53,475 --> 00:12:55,554 they hit the limit of the architecture. They 356 00:12:55,554 --> 00:12:57,235 didn't need any of the nails for anything 357 00:12:57,235 --> 00:12:59,815 else. So let's get rid of the nails. 358 00:13:00,514 --> 00:13:03,154 You know? That's what it's And they didn't 359 00:13:03,154 --> 00:13:04,534 have a have a 360 00:13:06,139 --> 00:13:07,920 a loss prevention OKR. 361 00:13:08,940 --> 00:13:09,920 That was the problem. 362 00:13:10,379 --> 00:13:12,779 They just need a new OKR. Yeah. Yeah. 363 00:13:12,779 --> 00:13:15,259 But see, that's right. You've fixed the problem. 364 00:13:15,259 --> 00:13:16,940 You can tell the world I've been operating 365 00:13:16,940 --> 00:13:19,259 in lately, can't you? And everyone has firmly 366 00:13:19,259 --> 00:13:19,965 moved into manager 367 00:13:27,165 --> 00:13:29,345 architecture. And rather than thinking about the architecture, 368 00:13:30,524 --> 00:13:33,085 we say, oh, look. There's a process that'll 369 00:13:33,085 --> 00:13:33,600 fix it. 370 00:13:34,399 --> 00:13:36,259 And then before long, you have 371 00:13:36,799 --> 00:13:39,539 years long processes to deploy new applications. 372 00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:42,319 And everybody says, why don't we have feature 373 00:13:42,319 --> 00:13:42,819 velocity? 374 00:13:44,159 --> 00:13:45,779 Well, I I don't know. 375 00:13:46,585 --> 00:13:48,504 I can't imagine why we don't have feature 376 00:13:48,504 --> 00:13:49,004 velocity. 377 00:13:52,184 --> 00:13:53,785 You know? And then they'll go in and 378 00:13:53,785 --> 00:13:55,785 they'll start, and they'll redo the whole process. 379 00:13:55,785 --> 00:13:58,904 They'll streamline it. They'll simplify the forms, and 380 00:13:58,904 --> 00:14:02,820 they'll create weekly meetings to talk about the 381 00:14:02,820 --> 00:14:04,980 process and to make sure everybody sees everything. 382 00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:07,940 And you're like, you're just putting Band Aids 383 00:14:07,940 --> 00:14:09,480 on this thing at this point. 384 00:14:09,940 --> 00:14:11,240 Just stop already. 385 00:14:12,934 --> 00:14:14,695 Is it the CS Lewis quote where he 386 00:14:14,695 --> 00:14:16,955 says there's no no use running down the 387 00:14:18,134 --> 00:14:20,855 running the opposite direction down the corridor of 388 00:14:20,855 --> 00:14:23,894 a train that's going the wrong way? Yeah. 389 00:14:23,894 --> 00:14:25,815 You know, it's it's a lot of that 390 00:14:25,815 --> 00:14:28,220 is and, you know, just another metaphor is, 391 00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:30,720 you know, rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. 392 00:14:30,779 --> 00:14:33,339 Right? I mean, this, you know, the and 393 00:14:33,339 --> 00:14:35,039 and and maybe you do get 394 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:39,759 some minor performance improvements by, you know, optimizing 395 00:14:39,899 --> 00:14:41,279 the form or, 396 00:14:42,054 --> 00:14:45,254 you know, automating a couple steps or reducing 397 00:14:45,254 --> 00:14:47,434 some interaction surfaces. But, ultimately, 398 00:14:48,375 --> 00:14:48,875 those 399 00:14:49,415 --> 00:14:51,035 that kind of improvement 400 00:14:51,735 --> 00:14:52,875 is very incremental. 401 00:14:53,415 --> 00:14:53,915 Yeah. 402 00:14:54,539 --> 00:14:57,339 Exactly. Yeah. I actually like that you I 403 00:14:57,339 --> 00:14:59,679 I actually love that metaphor of running backwards 404 00:14:59,740 --> 00:15:01,820 down the train. You know? The train's going 405 00:15:01,820 --> 00:15:03,100 west. I need to go east, so I'm 406 00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:05,120 gonna run down the corridor of the train 407 00:15:05,179 --> 00:15:06,459 till I get to the back, and then 408 00:15:06,459 --> 00:15:08,320 what are you gonna do? Right. 409 00:15:08,785 --> 00:15:11,105 Yeah. At some point, you have to get 410 00:15:11,105 --> 00:15:12,245 off the wrong turn. 411 00:15:13,024 --> 00:15:13,524 Exactly. 412 00:15:13,904 --> 00:15:14,884 Right. You know? 413 00:15:15,264 --> 00:15:17,665 He also said go ahead. Go ahead. Tom. 414 00:15:17,665 --> 00:15:18,065 Now you 415 00:15:18,865 --> 00:15:20,785 Well, he said at one point too that 416 00:15:20,785 --> 00:15:22,544 the fastest if you make the wrong turn 417 00:15:22,544 --> 00:15:23,365 at a fork, 418 00:15:23,825 --> 00:15:25,309 the fastest way to go the right 419 00:15:26,410 --> 00:15:28,170 way is not to keep going down the 420 00:15:28,170 --> 00:15:30,649 road you're on twice as fast. It's to 421 00:15:30,649 --> 00:15:32,750 turn around and go back to the fork. 422 00:15:35,210 --> 00:15:38,009 Right. Man, that that sunk cost fallacy gets 423 00:15:38,009 --> 00:15:40,615 us every time. It really does. Well, Well, 424 00:15:40,615 --> 00:15:43,014 and we get into that with architecture because 425 00:15:43,014 --> 00:15:45,575 it is, it's hard to change, it's expensive 426 00:15:45,575 --> 00:15:46,235 to change. 427 00:15:46,855 --> 00:15:49,175 The people who would be good at working 428 00:15:49,175 --> 00:15:49,894 at it, 429 00:15:50,934 --> 00:15:53,070 it's not, I wouldn't say it's a rare 430 00:15:53,149 --> 00:15:54,910 skill set, but it's one that's not generally 431 00:15:54,910 --> 00:15:57,149 rewarded in the industry. And so you've got 432 00:15:57,149 --> 00:15:58,049 kind of a, 433 00:15:58,750 --> 00:16:00,269 a little bit of a dearth of talent, 434 00:16:00,910 --> 00:16:02,429 and I've seen what happens when you pull 435 00:16:02,429 --> 00:16:04,269 a bunch of senior engineers into a room 436 00:16:04,269 --> 00:16:05,629 to do a job an architect should be 437 00:16:05,629 --> 00:16:07,090 doing. It's not pretty, usually. 438 00:16:07,950 --> 00:16:08,450 And 439 00:16:08,884 --> 00:16:10,485 I don't know, I think the big challenge 440 00:16:10,485 --> 00:16:12,085 though, something that I don't think I've seen 441 00:16:12,085 --> 00:16:14,804 done well very many places at all, is 442 00:16:14,804 --> 00:16:16,745 attaching business value to 443 00:16:17,924 --> 00:16:20,424 architecture. It's just saying, here is why 444 00:16:20,884 --> 00:16:21,784 you should hire 445 00:16:22,245 --> 00:16:23,304 a person or people 446 00:16:23,690 --> 00:16:25,789 to to really do it. Not not like 447 00:16:25,929 --> 00:16:28,649 this title enterprise architect, which I've seen, which 448 00:16:28,649 --> 00:16:32,009 means somebody walking around in meetings, PowerPoint decks, 449 00:16:32,009 --> 00:16:34,250 and docu you know, working on projects that 450 00:16:34,250 --> 00:16:36,570 never complete or never get funded. Like, I'm 451 00:16:36,570 --> 00:16:38,490 talking about the people that actually do real 452 00:16:38,490 --> 00:16:38,990 architecture. 453 00:16:39,777 --> 00:16:43,481 Yeah. Tell us how you really feel about 454 00:16:43,481 --> 00:16:47,184 enterprise architects, Tom. Enterprise architects are great. But 455 00:16:47,184 --> 00:16:50,888 but being able to articulate this is the 456 00:16:50,888 --> 00:16:52,740 business value. Like, here's 457 00:16:53,139 --> 00:16:54,839 here's what you're spending on process, 458 00:16:55,379 --> 00:16:56,899 which you wouldn't have to spend if you 459 00:16:56,899 --> 00:16:59,539 had, if you had a correct architecture. And 460 00:16:59,539 --> 00:17:01,299 here's what you're spending to build a correct 461 00:17:01,299 --> 00:17:03,620 architecture. And here's the dollars on the other 462 00:17:03,620 --> 00:17:05,460 side of the ledger if you choose not 463 00:17:05,460 --> 00:17:06,279 to do that. 464 00:17:06,740 --> 00:17:08,005 Yeah. I feel like that's the thing that 465 00:17:08,005 --> 00:17:10,025 is pretty hard to quantify. 466 00:17:11,845 --> 00:17:14,105 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. 467 00:17:14,404 --> 00:17:15,924 So, I I just thought that was an 468 00:17:15,924 --> 00:17:16,825 interesting topic, 469 00:17:17,684 --> 00:17:18,424 just because, 470 00:17:18,804 --> 00:17:20,244 like, I hit it all the time. It's 471 00:17:20,244 --> 00:17:22,440 like a continuous thing. I'm always hitting it. 472 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,440 It's not one company or another company. It's 473 00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:26,139 I think it's pretty much, 474 00:17:26,679 --> 00:17:28,679 in some degree or another, every place I've 475 00:17:28,679 --> 00:17:29,419 ever worked. 476 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:32,779 I've seen this to one degree or another. 477 00:17:33,399 --> 00:17:35,480 Some places are worse than others, and so 478 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:36,299 I don't know. 479 00:17:37,615 --> 00:17:38,115 So 480 00:17:38,734 --> 00:17:40,595 the second thing we're gonna talk about 481 00:17:41,134 --> 00:17:43,075 is from a new book called Unintentional. 482 00:17:43,934 --> 00:17:45,775 I should probably actually try to get Doug 483 00:17:45,775 --> 00:17:48,894 Smith on a a hedge episode. I didn't 484 00:17:48,894 --> 00:17:50,974 realize until I read this that this is 485 00:17:50,974 --> 00:17:51,694 actually from 486 00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:53,720 not really from, but, 487 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:55,419 the book, but 488 00:17:55,799 --> 00:17:56,299 it's 489 00:17:57,319 --> 00:17:59,179 called the tool trope. 490 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:02,619 The destructive lies of the tool to trope. 491 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,359 And this applies so well to actually what 492 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,059 we were just talking about, 493 00:18:08,755 --> 00:18:09,255 automation. 494 00:18:09,875 --> 00:18:10,375 And 495 00:18:12,115 --> 00:18:13,095 you can do 496 00:18:13,875 --> 00:18:14,375 yeah. 497 00:18:14,755 --> 00:18:16,994 Technology isn't good or bad. It's just a 498 00:18:16,994 --> 00:18:19,154 tool. It's how you use the tool that 499 00:18:19,154 --> 00:18:19,654 matters. 500 00:18:20,349 --> 00:18:22,349 And, Yvonne, you know, you said your architecture 501 00:18:22,429 --> 00:18:24,190 you you shape your architecture and then your 502 00:18:24,190 --> 00:18:25,569 architecture shapes the world. 503 00:18:26,029 --> 00:18:28,450 That's exactly what this is talking about. Right? 504 00:18:30,349 --> 00:18:32,589 We build houses the way we build houses 505 00:18:32,589 --> 00:18:33,490 today because 506 00:18:34,029 --> 00:18:36,994 we created tools that cut wood and nails 507 00:18:37,054 --> 00:18:39,315 or hammers that would that match nails. 508 00:18:42,335 --> 00:18:44,095 If we would have been a different tools, 509 00:18:44,095 --> 00:18:45,774 we wouldn't build houses the way we build 510 00:18:45,774 --> 00:18:46,274 houses. 511 00:18:47,294 --> 00:18:48,450 That's a pretty Well, 512 00:18:49,009 --> 00:18:52,289 another analogy for that or statement is, you 513 00:18:52,289 --> 00:18:54,450 know, the medium is the message. Right? When 514 00:18:54,450 --> 00:18:56,549 you're talking about marketing or communicating 515 00:18:57,009 --> 00:18:59,970 Yeah. McLennan. How you communicate and the audience 516 00:18:59,970 --> 00:19:00,710 you target 517 00:19:01,329 --> 00:19:03,404 is very dependent on the medium that you're 518 00:19:03,404 --> 00:19:05,025 using, whether you're using radio 519 00:19:05,325 --> 00:19:05,904 or television 520 00:19:06,365 --> 00:19:06,865 or 521 00:19:07,565 --> 00:19:08,065 newspaper 522 00:19:08,445 --> 00:19:08,945 or, 523 00:19:09,805 --> 00:19:11,265 Internet or video 524 00:19:11,565 --> 00:19:12,865 or social media. 525 00:19:13,244 --> 00:19:13,984 The medium 526 00:19:14,765 --> 00:19:16,924 shapes the message, and I think that's kind 527 00:19:16,924 --> 00:19:18,929 of the same thing that you're saying here 528 00:19:18,929 --> 00:19:22,450 about tools, any tool. Yeah. But explicitly many 529 00:19:22,450 --> 00:19:25,169 of our technology tools. Yeah. Marshall McLuhan actually 530 00:19:25,169 --> 00:19:26,609 has a book called The Medium is the 531 00:19:26,609 --> 00:19:29,029 Message. And and he talks about this that 532 00:19:30,369 --> 00:19:33,269 every type of medium has a resonance. 533 00:19:34,265 --> 00:19:35,005 And so 534 00:19:35,384 --> 00:19:38,284 his argument was reading books is narrative. 535 00:19:39,544 --> 00:19:41,704 If you're even in the most technical case, 536 00:19:41,704 --> 00:19:43,464 no matter what type of material you're trying 537 00:19:43,464 --> 00:19:45,704 to cover, the most technical material in the 538 00:19:45,704 --> 00:19:48,365 world is best presented as a narrative 539 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,740 on a book in a book. 540 00:19:52,159 --> 00:19:53,539 And he says, now television 541 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,700 the the the resonance of television is entertainment. 542 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,299 And this is why everything that's on television 543 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,140 eventually becomes entertainment. 544 00:20:04,095 --> 00:20:06,035 The weather report, the news, 545 00:20:07,615 --> 00:20:08,595 online preaching, 546 00:20:09,535 --> 00:20:10,595 whatever it is, 547 00:20:10,894 --> 00:20:13,694 it all ends up being entertainment because that's 548 00:20:13,694 --> 00:20:15,075 what it resonates as. 549 00:20:15,934 --> 00:20:17,954 So that's actually a very interesting 550 00:20:19,380 --> 00:20:21,779 way of seeing it. Now I think that 551 00:20:21,779 --> 00:20:22,279 what 552 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:24,600 is, 553 00:20:25,539 --> 00:20:27,480 being said here by Doug Smith 554 00:20:28,180 --> 00:20:30,580 is that it goes further than this in 555 00:20:30,580 --> 00:20:31,080 that 556 00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:31,960 tools 557 00:20:32,375 --> 00:20:34,555 can make you more or less human. 558 00:20:37,174 --> 00:20:39,335 Would you Tom, is that your reading as 559 00:20:39,335 --> 00:20:42,375 well? Am I, like, totally Yeah. No. No. 560 00:20:42,375 --> 00:20:44,455 I I that's my read of the article. 561 00:20:44,455 --> 00:20:46,295 I'm still trying to digest what I think 562 00:20:46,295 --> 00:20:46,955 of it, 563 00:20:47,494 --> 00:20:47,994 because 564 00:20:48,970 --> 00:20:50,970 we have something tools don't have, which is 565 00:20:50,970 --> 00:20:51,470 agency. 566 00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:55,289 But you can, it is possible, obviously, for 567 00:20:55,289 --> 00:20:57,210 your agency to be co opted by someone 568 00:20:57,210 --> 00:20:58,890 or something else, and I think that's probably 569 00:20:58,890 --> 00:21:00,164 his thesis is that, 570 00:21:01,125 --> 00:21:01,625 you're, 571 00:21:02,085 --> 00:21:04,025 you, you are, you are selling, 572 00:21:04,404 --> 00:21:07,305 slash giving your agency to something else and 573 00:21:07,684 --> 00:21:08,825 the focus of his article 574 00:21:09,365 --> 00:21:11,785 is AI, but I think tools isn't, 575 00:21:12,085 --> 00:21:13,225 tools of any type, 576 00:21:14,085 --> 00:21:17,069 fit in here. But, yeah, I I think 577 00:21:18,009 --> 00:21:20,589 I think we sell we definitely sell our 578 00:21:22,009 --> 00:21:24,170 we sell for convenience many things, 579 00:21:24,490 --> 00:21:26,809 and AI just makes it easier for us 580 00:21:26,809 --> 00:21:27,869 to sell more things, 581 00:21:28,684 --> 00:21:31,845 for convenience, and it's pretty treacherous to Yeah. 582 00:21:31,964 --> 00:21:33,345 To sell things for convenience. 583 00:21:33,644 --> 00:21:35,484 Yeah. There there is about, like 584 00:21:36,525 --> 00:21:37,025 so 585 00:21:37,884 --> 00:21:39,644 if you really wanna learn how to build 586 00:21:39,644 --> 00:21:40,305 a house, 587 00:21:40,669 --> 00:21:42,769 you literally use a hammer and nails 588 00:21:43,789 --> 00:21:46,429 and a compound miter saw, and you cut 589 00:21:46,429 --> 00:21:46,929 all 590 00:21:47,549 --> 00:21:49,950 the you cut all the the bird's nest 591 00:21:49,950 --> 00:21:50,450 and 592 00:21:50,990 --> 00:21:53,470 everything yourself for all the joists and all 593 00:21:53,470 --> 00:21:55,710 the rafters and, you know, you you cut 594 00:21:55,710 --> 00:21:56,210 everything. 595 00:21:56,565 --> 00:21:58,404 And you'll learn every corner of that house 596 00:21:58,404 --> 00:21:59,444 and you'll know how to build it. You 597 00:21:59,444 --> 00:22:01,224 run all the wiring and everything yourself. 598 00:22:02,244 --> 00:22:02,744 Now, 599 00:22:03,125 --> 00:22:04,804 we turn a lot of that stuff over 600 00:22:04,804 --> 00:22:05,464 to tools 601 00:22:06,724 --> 00:22:09,524 via air guns, and, you know, there's lots 602 00:22:09,524 --> 00:22:10,825 of things that we use 603 00:22:12,039 --> 00:22:15,000 to make that process easier. So there's always 604 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,339 some degree with the tool of, 605 00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:20,539 by making my life easier, I'm actually 606 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:22,299 learning less. 607 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,339 That's that's just always, 608 00:22:26,375 --> 00:22:27,894 I learned to use the tool, and the 609 00:22:27,894 --> 00:22:29,994 tool shapes the way I think about things 610 00:22:30,694 --> 00:22:32,794 to some degree, one way or the other. 611 00:22:33,095 --> 00:22:34,315 The question becomes, 612 00:22:35,414 --> 00:22:36,634 when does that become 613 00:22:38,855 --> 00:22:40,634 harmful to the human person 614 00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:42,019 instead of helpful? 615 00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:46,160 To me, the the dividing line is I 616 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:47,360 don't know a better way to say this 617 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,539 than cognition. Like, if you're using, 618 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,580 a hammer and nail versus a nail gun, 619 00:22:53,255 --> 00:22:55,735 there's no thinking or nothing that looks like 620 00:22:55,735 --> 00:22:57,815 thinking going on between the two. No one 621 00:22:57,815 --> 00:23:00,855 would ever say that the nail suddenly has 622 00:23:00,855 --> 00:23:03,174 consciousness if you use a nail gun. No. 623 00:23:03,174 --> 00:23:04,455 It's just a different way to drive a 624 00:23:04,455 --> 00:23:06,215 nail. It's just a more efficient way to 625 00:23:06,215 --> 00:23:07,035 drive a nail. 626 00:23:07,819 --> 00:23:10,059 But when when to me, when you cross 627 00:23:10,059 --> 00:23:10,559 into, 628 00:23:11,339 --> 00:23:13,259 something else can make decisions for me, if 629 00:23:13,259 --> 00:23:15,179 the nail good can decide where to put 630 00:23:15,179 --> 00:23:16,779 the nails, if it was a thing that 631 00:23:16,779 --> 00:23:18,299 you just kinda strap on to the end 632 00:23:18,299 --> 00:23:19,900 of the stud and and push the button 633 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,065 and say do the right thing, then then 634 00:23:22,065 --> 00:23:23,664 that would be different. That would be but 635 00:23:23,664 --> 00:23:25,684 even then, it's really just algorithmic. 636 00:23:26,065 --> 00:23:28,565 It's not it's not doing anything that would 637 00:23:29,105 --> 00:23:30,964 that you couldn't direct necessarily. 638 00:23:31,424 --> 00:23:33,105 So so then this is yeah. This is 639 00:23:33,105 --> 00:23:34,830 the question. Right? Can 640 00:23:35,289 --> 00:23:35,789 everything 641 00:23:36,170 --> 00:23:38,109 be can everything be reduced to algorithms? 642 00:23:40,009 --> 00:23:41,369 Can I can I reduce 643 00:23:42,650 --> 00:23:43,710 yeah? Go ahead, Yvonne. 644 00:23:44,250 --> 00:23:45,930 Well, no. I you know, it's it's funny 645 00:23:45,930 --> 00:23:47,769 because there was a series of novels that 646 00:23:47,769 --> 00:23:50,184 were written in the eighties and nineties that 647 00:23:50,184 --> 00:23:52,445 really kind of explored some of these questions, 648 00:23:52,505 --> 00:23:54,664 right? As as computers were coming to the 649 00:23:54,664 --> 00:23:55,565 fore and, 650 00:23:55,945 --> 00:23:57,325 you know, is 651 00:23:57,865 --> 00:23:59,465 is is everything that we think, 652 00:23:59,865 --> 00:24:01,625 is it is it just like a mind 653 00:24:01,625 --> 00:24:02,125 virus? 654 00:24:02,869 --> 00:24:05,590 Is it, you know, can we as people 655 00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:07,130 be reduced to 656 00:24:07,910 --> 00:24:10,710 a set of algorithms? Are our brains really 657 00:24:10,710 --> 00:24:11,210 computers? 658 00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:13,289 And I think, 659 00:24:14,070 --> 00:24:16,230 you know, I think we've kind of come 660 00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:17,224 through that, 661 00:24:17,525 --> 00:24:20,164 that particular time period in thinking and like 662 00:24:20,164 --> 00:24:21,065 so many discoveries 663 00:24:21,605 --> 00:24:23,384 that are happening now in neuroscience 664 00:24:24,325 --> 00:24:26,964 are really stitching together like the mind and 665 00:24:26,964 --> 00:24:29,285 the body and talking about how those two 666 00:24:29,285 --> 00:24:30,424 things together 667 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,000 really make us holistic people. It's not, we 668 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:34,740 are not, 669 00:24:36,799 --> 00:24:39,039 you know, our bodies aren't just ambulatory. They're 670 00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:41,039 not just there to move our brains around, 671 00:24:41,039 --> 00:24:44,019 right? And, and I think that the interesting 672 00:24:44,079 --> 00:24:46,355 thing that's happening now is we 673 00:24:46,654 --> 00:24:47,714 have a new technology 674 00:24:48,095 --> 00:24:48,994 in AI 675 00:24:49,454 --> 00:24:50,194 that is 676 00:24:51,055 --> 00:24:53,075 doing things that we once 677 00:24:53,694 --> 00:24:54,194 thought 678 00:24:54,494 --> 00:24:56,515 only a human could do, 679 00:24:57,134 --> 00:24:59,615 and it's making us ask that question, what 680 00:24:59,615 --> 00:25:01,419 does it really mean to be human? 681 00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:04,039 And I think it's gonna take us some 682 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:06,159 time to figure that out. But I mean, 683 00:25:06,159 --> 00:25:08,779 I think there was you look back at 684 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:10,220 Copernicus 685 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:11,480 and all the 686 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,924 does the earth revolve around the sun? Or 687 00:25:15,005 --> 00:25:16,924 no. Yes. Does the earth revolve around the 688 00:25:16,924 --> 00:25:18,205 sun? And what does that mean if we 689 00:25:18,205 --> 00:25:19,985 are not actually the center of the universe? 690 00:25:20,445 --> 00:25:22,285 I I think it's we're just asking those 691 00:25:22,285 --> 00:25:24,465 kinds of questions again on a different level. 692 00:25:24,924 --> 00:25:26,845 And, you know, I think we'll have to 693 00:25:26,845 --> 00:25:28,829 figure out, like, what is the difference between 694 00:25:28,829 --> 00:25:30,269 the machine and the human? And now this 695 00:25:30,269 --> 00:25:32,670 thing is really replicating something that I thought 696 00:25:32,670 --> 00:25:33,170 was 697 00:25:34,269 --> 00:25:36,509 exclusively human. What what does that mean? And 698 00:25:36,509 --> 00:25:38,269 I don't think we we have those answers 699 00:25:38,269 --> 00:25:40,430 yet. I think we'll get there. I mean, 700 00:25:40,430 --> 00:25:41,250 there'll be 701 00:25:42,015 --> 00:25:43,555 benefits and then there'll be 702 00:25:44,335 --> 00:25:44,835 losses, 703 00:25:45,375 --> 00:25:46,755 like there has been with everything. 704 00:25:47,535 --> 00:25:49,535 Yeah. I do worry, Yvonne, though, that we 705 00:25:49,535 --> 00:25:50,914 are losing our humanness 706 00:25:51,295 --> 00:25:54,119 in this. I really do. It's a big 707 00:25:54,279 --> 00:25:55,740 it's a big if for me 708 00:25:56,039 --> 00:25:57,900 about what's going on 709 00:25:58,599 --> 00:25:58,759 with, 710 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:02,619 with the way we 711 00:26:03,319 --> 00:26:05,799 look at these tools and say, it's just 712 00:26:05,799 --> 00:26:07,099 a tool. It's okay. 713 00:26:07,825 --> 00:26:09,924 You know, we've we've faced this before. 714 00:26:10,785 --> 00:26:12,644 You can go back and read Greek philosophers 715 00:26:12,785 --> 00:26:14,884 about when they first started talking about writing. 716 00:26:16,305 --> 00:26:18,705 And, oh, don't write things down. You won't 717 00:26:18,705 --> 00:26:20,465 have to memorize them anymore. It makes you 718 00:26:20,465 --> 00:26:21,205 less human. 719 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:23,339 Well, it does it really. 720 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:24,940 But on the other hand, 721 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:27,019 there is a point where 722 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:28,059 you say, 723 00:26:28,679 --> 00:26:30,759 I never decide what I'm gonna make for 724 00:26:30,759 --> 00:26:33,240 dinner. I never decide what recipe I'm gonna 725 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,654 use. I never decide where I'm going out 726 00:26:35,654 --> 00:26:36,714 if I'm going out. 727 00:26:37,015 --> 00:26:39,095 I have an AI bot that I ask 728 00:26:39,095 --> 00:26:40,954 what I'm gonna eat for dinner every night, 729 00:26:41,095 --> 00:26:43,494 and the AI bot figures out what I've 730 00:26:43,494 --> 00:26:45,174 eaten over the last week and what I 731 00:26:45,174 --> 00:26:45,914 need nutrients 732 00:26:46,420 --> 00:26:48,019 and everything else. It sounds really cool when 733 00:26:48,019 --> 00:26:50,019 you think about it, but, like, you are 734 00:26:50,019 --> 00:26:50,519 utterly 735 00:26:51,539 --> 00:26:55,140 in obedience to the AI bot at this 736 00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:55,640 point. 737 00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:57,799 You have no agency. 738 00:26:59,964 --> 00:27:00,464 And, 739 00:27:01,005 --> 00:27:02,544 like, is that really cool? 740 00:27:02,845 --> 00:27:04,444 Is that really a place we want to 741 00:27:04,444 --> 00:27:04,944 be 742 00:27:05,404 --> 00:27:06,944 as as people? 743 00:27:07,565 --> 00:27:08,944 And I think that's a very 744 00:27:09,404 --> 00:27:10,944 that's a very hard, 745 00:27:11,484 --> 00:27:12,784 question to answer, 746 00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:14,419 much harder 747 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:15,759 to answer than 748 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:18,559 One of the things that I think about 749 00:27:18,559 --> 00:27:20,879 and and and I especially think about it 750 00:27:20,879 --> 00:27:23,200 if, you know, I'm visiting Europe and looking 751 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:24,339 at that old architecture 752 00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:27,759 where, you know, it took a hundred, two 753 00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:30,994 hundred years to build this incredible edifice. Sometimes, 754 00:27:30,994 --> 00:27:31,654 you know, 755 00:27:32,194 --> 00:27:33,335 a building is 756 00:27:33,795 --> 00:27:36,115 the result of a thousand years of human 757 00:27:36,115 --> 00:27:37,255 effort, right? 758 00:27:38,515 --> 00:27:39,015 And 759 00:27:40,355 --> 00:27:42,355 you know, we build our buildings much faster 760 00:27:42,355 --> 00:27:44,900 now, but there is a thing that has 761 00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:47,720 been lost in that and it's the craftsmanship. 762 00:27:48,259 --> 00:27:50,440 There's a degree of artistry and 763 00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:51,400 patience 764 00:27:51,859 --> 00:27:52,359 that 765 00:27:53,460 --> 00:27:54,680 that edifice represents 766 00:27:56,305 --> 00:27:58,724 that does not exist in society anymore. 767 00:28:00,465 --> 00:28:02,545 And I could make an argument that I 768 00:28:02,545 --> 00:28:04,144 think in a lot of ways that's a 769 00:28:04,144 --> 00:28:04,965 net loss. 770 00:28:06,705 --> 00:28:08,705 I don't know, net loss. That's a loss. 771 00:28:08,705 --> 00:28:10,085 Yes, it's a loss. Now, 772 00:28:10,545 --> 00:28:11,365 do I think 773 00:28:11,940 --> 00:28:12,440 that, 774 00:28:13,380 --> 00:28:14,899 you know, I think we would struggle to 775 00:28:14,899 --> 00:28:16,899 house all of humanity if we still built 776 00:28:16,899 --> 00:28:20,359 every single building that way, right? Maybe. Possibly. 777 00:28:20,659 --> 00:28:21,159 Yeah. 778 00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:23,619 I don't I don't think there's anything wrong 779 00:28:23,619 --> 00:28:25,079 with acknowledging that 780 00:28:25,380 --> 00:28:28,144 as, you know, as these technologies emerge, there 781 00:28:28,144 --> 00:28:29,664 is a loss and we need to figure 782 00:28:29,664 --> 00:28:30,164 out 783 00:28:30,545 --> 00:28:32,384 what that loss is and if it's something 784 00:28:32,384 --> 00:28:34,545 that we should mitigate. I think my biggest 785 00:28:34,545 --> 00:28:36,384 concerns are what does this do to the 786 00:28:36,384 --> 00:28:38,785 nature of learning and thinking? If we have 787 00:28:38,785 --> 00:28:40,404 a thing that writes for us, 788 00:28:41,179 --> 00:28:41,679 then 789 00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:44,059 how do we learn to think? Because for 790 00:28:44,059 --> 00:28:44,559 me, 791 00:28:45,420 --> 00:28:47,740 I know what I think because I write. 792 00:28:47,740 --> 00:28:49,500 Yeah, oh yeah. But see, this goes back 793 00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,179 to virtue. And I think that's what my 794 00:28:51,179 --> 00:28:52,220 thinking is. Yeah, this goes back to the 795 00:28:52,220 --> 00:28:54,704 virtue ethic and the idea that you become 796 00:28:54,704 --> 00:28:55,684 what you practice 797 00:28:56,304 --> 00:28:57,044 in essence. 798 00:28:57,424 --> 00:28:57,924 Right? 799 00:28:58,224 --> 00:29:00,804 And if we never practice agency, 800 00:29:02,224 --> 00:29:03,825 if we go through our entire lives, if 801 00:29:03,825 --> 00:29:06,065 I turn if I were 16 years old 802 00:29:06,065 --> 00:29:08,519 and I started out saying, I'm never gonna 803 00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:10,200 decide what I'm eating for dinner for the 804 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,100 rest of my life. 805 00:29:12,279 --> 00:29:15,019 This chatbot, whatever it is, knows my finances, 806 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,420 knows my fine knows my my, 807 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,299 my nutritional needs, 808 00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:23,045 knows how old I am, knows all the 809 00:29:23,045 --> 00:29:25,384 vitamins I have, it has access to my 810 00:29:25,684 --> 00:29:28,325 blood work. It knows everything. So I'm just 811 00:29:28,325 --> 00:29:30,424 gonna let it decide for dinner for me. 812 00:29:31,845 --> 00:29:33,605 I I don't know. That feels like we're 813 00:29:33,605 --> 00:29:34,904 losing a bit of humanity, 814 00:29:35,444 --> 00:29:37,224 like we're losing a bit of our 815 00:29:38,059 --> 00:29:40,240 agency, our ability to make decisions 816 00:29:40,940 --> 00:29:43,259 and and negotiate with people in our lives. 817 00:29:43,259 --> 00:29:46,059 Like, you know, imagine even further, you have 818 00:29:46,059 --> 00:29:48,140 an AI bot that says, I'm gonna take 819 00:29:48,140 --> 00:29:49,519 everybody in your family, 820 00:29:51,025 --> 00:29:52,545 everybody who goes to dinner on a regular 821 00:29:52,545 --> 00:29:54,144 basis, and I'm gonna decide what goes for 822 00:29:54,144 --> 00:29:56,464 dinner every night. If it's a recipe, I 823 00:29:56,464 --> 00:29:57,365 spit it out 824 00:29:57,744 --> 00:29:59,664 for you. Just make what I tell you. 825 00:29:59,664 --> 00:30:01,664 And I know what's in your fridge, and 826 00:30:01,664 --> 00:30:03,984 I make your grocery list for you. There's 827 00:30:03,984 --> 00:30:06,289 like for some people, that's like a huge 828 00:30:06,289 --> 00:30:07,730 relief. Oh, I don't have to think about 829 00:30:07,730 --> 00:30:08,769 what I'm making for. I don't have to 830 00:30:08,769 --> 00:30:09,269 negotiate. 831 00:30:09,570 --> 00:30:11,250 I don't have to worry about buying groceries. 832 00:30:11,250 --> 00:30:12,849 I don't need to make your everything's taken 833 00:30:12,849 --> 00:30:13,750 care of for me. 834 00:30:14,289 --> 00:30:16,450 But there's a there's there's a there's an 835 00:30:16,450 --> 00:30:18,710 element there of just completely losing 836 00:30:19,575 --> 00:30:21,974 the practice of negotiating with the people in 837 00:30:21,974 --> 00:30:22,714 your family 838 00:30:23,174 --> 00:30:23,914 and thinking 839 00:30:24,214 --> 00:30:24,714 about 840 00:30:25,095 --> 00:30:26,634 your finances, your nutrition, 841 00:30:27,575 --> 00:30:30,234 making intentional decisions, like, you're losing 842 00:30:30,694 --> 00:30:32,954 the practice of doing those things. 843 00:30:33,950 --> 00:30:37,230 That's My, my favorite example to mirror what 844 00:30:37,230 --> 00:30:39,630 you're saying, Russ, is the, GPS that everybody 845 00:30:39,630 --> 00:30:40,609 has in their room. 846 00:30:41,549 --> 00:30:44,750 Recently, I started not using GPS to navigate 847 00:30:44,750 --> 00:30:46,349 around this. I live in Austin, but I'm 848 00:30:46,349 --> 00:30:47,950 not from here, so I've lived here for 849 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:49,009 about six years, 850 00:30:49,465 --> 00:30:51,625 and I found myself just every time it 851 00:30:51,625 --> 00:30:54,424 was someplace not on my daily route, oh, 852 00:30:54,424 --> 00:30:56,345 just put it in the GPS, why not? 853 00:30:56,345 --> 00:30:57,865 Like, it'll get me there, I don't have 854 00:30:57,865 --> 00:30:58,985 to think about it, I just do what 855 00:30:58,985 --> 00:31:00,505 it says, and it's all, it has always 856 00:31:00,505 --> 00:31:01,625 gotten me to the where I need to 857 00:31:01,625 --> 00:31:02,365 go always. 858 00:31:02,825 --> 00:31:03,225 And, 859 00:31:03,980 --> 00:31:06,080 but then I, but I start thinking, well, 860 00:31:06,380 --> 00:31:08,299 what about, what if something comes up? What 861 00:31:08,299 --> 00:31:09,900 if the, what if the data and the 862 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:12,220 map is wrong? What if, you know, yeah, 863 00:31:12,220 --> 00:31:13,820 eventually I'll figure it out, like I get 864 00:31:13,820 --> 00:31:15,660 there and the road's closed or whatever, but 865 00:31:15,660 --> 00:31:16,365 my ability 866 00:31:16,924 --> 00:31:20,144 to to improvise is probably pretty well reduced 867 00:31:20,605 --> 00:31:23,164 because I'm not practicing that. I'm not thinking 868 00:31:23,164 --> 00:31:24,684 about the route. I'm not there's so many 869 00:31:24,684 --> 00:31:27,005 there's so many points along the way that 870 00:31:27,005 --> 00:31:29,005 I'm not that I'm not really thinking about 871 00:31:29,005 --> 00:31:31,089 what should I be doing here. And, 872 00:31:31,549 --> 00:31:33,309 it's been interesting to try to come back 873 00:31:33,309 --> 00:31:35,570 from that, because it's right there. It's like, 874 00:31:35,710 --> 00:31:37,650 I don't wanna think about this, I'll just 875 00:31:37,710 --> 00:31:38,349 put it in, 876 00:31:38,830 --> 00:31:40,269 but I wanna be able to make decisions, 877 00:31:40,269 --> 00:31:41,869 I wanna be able to improvise. Yeah, there 878 00:31:41,869 --> 00:31:44,045 was a time when I was down on 879 00:31:44,045 --> 00:31:45,964 the coast of North Carolina and a hurricane 880 00:31:45,964 --> 00:31:47,565 blew through, and I need to get home 881 00:31:47,565 --> 00:31:48,924 for some reason. I need to get back 882 00:31:48,924 --> 00:31:50,545 to Raleigh for some reason. 883 00:31:52,765 --> 00:31:55,244 And the GPS was fine, but a lot 884 00:31:55,244 --> 00:31:57,984 of roads were being closed dynamically by police 885 00:31:58,910 --> 00:32:01,549 and cities, and you didn't know. And there's 886 00:32:01,549 --> 00:32:02,929 no way the GPS knew. 887 00:32:03,869 --> 00:32:05,490 So I actually still keep 888 00:32:05,789 --> 00:32:08,589 a physical road map in my car, which, 889 00:32:08,589 --> 00:32:11,150 like, papers. Like, people are like, that's so 890 00:32:11,150 --> 00:32:14,005 weird. You keep paper road map. The original 891 00:32:14,005 --> 00:32:14,825 way to route. 892 00:32:15,444 --> 00:32:16,805 And, you know, every time I came up 893 00:32:16,805 --> 00:32:18,505 to a closed road that was closed, 894 00:32:18,884 --> 00:32:19,944 I'd stop, 895 00:32:20,244 --> 00:32:21,845 take the road map out, put it out 896 00:32:21,845 --> 00:32:23,785 on my hood because it's big, you know. 897 00:32:24,085 --> 00:32:25,365 You don't wanna do it in the car 898 00:32:25,365 --> 00:32:27,299 most of the time. It's makes for a 899 00:32:27,299 --> 00:32:29,140 great comedy machine. It doesn't make for much 900 00:32:29,140 --> 00:32:31,000 else than that. And, like, 901 00:32:31,460 --> 00:32:31,960 okay. 902 00:32:32,419 --> 00:32:33,720 If we go to the fourth 903 00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:36,500 if we turn around and go back to 904 00:32:36,500 --> 00:32:38,355 the fourth left turn and make a left 905 00:32:38,434 --> 00:32:40,294 and then we go up five miles, 906 00:32:40,755 --> 00:32:42,914 you know, then we can start figuring out 907 00:32:42,914 --> 00:32:44,315 how to get back towards where we need 908 00:32:44,315 --> 00:32:44,934 to go. 909 00:32:46,434 --> 00:32:48,835 And, like, the GPS would have been totally 910 00:32:48,835 --> 00:32:49,974 useless for me 911 00:32:50,275 --> 00:32:51,174 in that perspective. 912 00:32:51,740 --> 00:32:53,119 I've had it in snowstorms 913 00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:56,220 where the GPS is fine again, but they 914 00:32:56,220 --> 00:32:57,039 close roads. 915 00:32:57,340 --> 00:32:59,019 And so I had to know six different 916 00:32:59,019 --> 00:33:00,380 ways to get home and how to get 917 00:33:00,380 --> 00:33:01,519 between those ways. 918 00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:03,039 And, like, 919 00:33:03,340 --> 00:33:05,855 yeah. There but even beyond all that, there's 920 00:33:05,855 --> 00:33:07,954 some, to me, loss of agency. 921 00:33:08,494 --> 00:33:10,575 It's not just that you get caught in 922 00:33:10,575 --> 00:33:11,075 situations 923 00:33:11,534 --> 00:33:13,134 where, oh my gosh. What if it doesn't 924 00:33:13,134 --> 00:33:14,835 work? It's just 925 00:33:15,294 --> 00:33:16,674 your ability to think. 926 00:33:17,375 --> 00:33:17,875 Like, 927 00:33:19,169 --> 00:33:20,929 the more you work yourself out of hard 928 00:33:20,929 --> 00:33:21,429 problems 929 00:33:21,809 --> 00:33:22,710 on your own, 930 00:33:23,569 --> 00:33:25,349 the better you're able to do it. 931 00:33:25,890 --> 00:33:27,970 And it just seems like sometimes we're losing 932 00:33:27,970 --> 00:33:28,470 that 933 00:33:28,769 --> 00:33:31,009 in what what this guy calls the the 934 00:33:31,009 --> 00:33:31,750 tool trope, 935 00:33:33,285 --> 00:33:34,265 and Doug Smith 936 00:33:34,565 --> 00:33:35,785 calls the tool trope. 937 00:33:38,325 --> 00:33:39,765 So I don't know. I it's it's an 938 00:33:39,765 --> 00:33:41,765 interesting topic. It's something I don't think a 939 00:33:41,765 --> 00:33:43,285 lot of people think about. They think more 940 00:33:43,285 --> 00:33:44,025 about the 941 00:33:45,605 --> 00:33:46,105 convenience, 942 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:47,980 you know, 943 00:33:48,599 --> 00:33:49,099 efficiency. 944 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,039 Yeah. But there's more to life than convenience 945 00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:53,900 and efficiency. So I don't know. 946 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,019 Any other comments on that? 947 00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:00,440 I was just thinking about all of the 948 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:01,420 different civilizations 949 00:34:02,255 --> 00:34:04,115 that that we know about now 950 00:34:04,815 --> 00:34:07,134 that we have no idea how they did 951 00:34:07,134 --> 00:34:09,135 and made and built what they did, whether 952 00:34:09,135 --> 00:34:11,715 it's, you know, the pyramids or the Aztecs 953 00:34:12,015 --> 00:34:14,914 or the Assyrians. We cover uncover these civilizations, 954 00:34:16,029 --> 00:34:18,210 and and they did incredible things 955 00:34:18,989 --> 00:34:22,909 without the same tools that we are familiar 956 00:34:22,909 --> 00:34:23,409 with, 957 00:34:23,710 --> 00:34:24,449 and yet 958 00:34:24,750 --> 00:34:27,309 their methods have been lost to antiquity. And 959 00:34:27,309 --> 00:34:28,989 I think, you know, some of this is 960 00:34:28,989 --> 00:34:31,184 how that happens. You know, there's some innovation, 961 00:34:37,184 --> 00:34:39,844 And interestingly enough though, I think that process 962 00:34:39,905 --> 00:34:41,765 is also remarkably human 963 00:34:42,385 --> 00:34:45,150 because it's we've seen it play out in 964 00:34:45,150 --> 00:34:46,849 civilizations across the globe. 965 00:34:47,469 --> 00:34:47,789 But, 966 00:34:49,069 --> 00:34:50,929 I think it's something good to think about. 967 00:34:51,549 --> 00:34:52,609 I'm not 968 00:34:53,069 --> 00:34:55,469 a big believer that we can necessarily stem 969 00:34:55,469 --> 00:34:57,230 the tide other than to be aware of 970 00:34:57,230 --> 00:34:59,885 it personally and try and use that to 971 00:34:59,885 --> 00:35:01,264 guide and shape how we, 972 00:35:01,565 --> 00:35:02,864 you know, choose to live. 973 00:35:03,244 --> 00:35:04,445 Yeah. Yeah. And that is 974 00:35:05,644 --> 00:35:08,525 yes. To some degree, it is a matter 975 00:35:08,525 --> 00:35:09,025 of 976 00:35:09,965 --> 00:35:10,465 just, 977 00:35:12,619 --> 00:35:14,559 how you choose to live your life. 978 00:35:14,940 --> 00:35:15,440 Right? 979 00:35:16,380 --> 00:35:17,900 It's up to you as a person to 980 00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:19,200 make those kinds of choices. 981 00:35:20,220 --> 00:35:20,960 You can't, 982 00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:23,920 you know, you're not gonna change society 983 00:35:25,019 --> 00:35:25,519 regardless. 984 00:35:25,820 --> 00:35:27,324 So I don't know. 985 00:35:28,505 --> 00:35:29,565 Okay. Well, cool. 986 00:35:30,105 --> 00:35:30,605 Alright. 987 00:35:32,585 --> 00:35:34,764 Any other comments before we wrap up? 988 00:35:35,224 --> 00:35:36,924 Any vine goes back to sorting? 989 00:35:38,424 --> 00:35:40,444 Oh, gosh. It's unbelievable. 990 00:35:40,744 --> 00:35:42,960 It'll be okay, though. It's it's good. It's 991 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,960 good. Just pull your little bins out. Write 992 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,719 everything they're thinking down on a piece of 993 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:47,219 paper. 994 00:35:49,039 --> 00:35:51,599 I've gone back to physical to do lists, 995 00:35:51,599 --> 00:35:53,519 and I've got a few different ones in 996 00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:56,320 different categories. Oh, no. So No. Oh, yeah. 997 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,914 I'm I'm gonna upgrade my notebook game, and 998 00:35:58,914 --> 00:36:00,755 maybe I'll be more consistent in my level 999 00:36:00,755 --> 00:36:02,994 of notebook. That's my plan. I used to 1000 00:36:02,994 --> 00:36:04,994 have no so many to do lists. I 1001 00:36:04,994 --> 00:36:06,135 had a to do list 1002 00:36:06,594 --> 00:36:09,335 that said, go to to do list 14 1003 00:36:09,635 --> 00:36:11,519 and do something from that list today. 1004 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,500 Sounds like you need an AI assistant, Russ. 1005 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:20,019 Yeah. It does. Absolutely. 1006 00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:23,940 Perfect way to round out this conversation. Yeah. 1007 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,494 Yeah. Alright. Cool. Alright. Well, Yvonne, where can 1008 00:36:27,494 --> 00:36:28,694 people get in touch with you if they 1009 00:36:28,694 --> 00:36:30,894 want to or, you know, whatever? Follow your 1010 00:36:31,174 --> 00:36:32,074 Yeah. Work. 1011 00:36:33,494 --> 00:36:36,295 Yeah. I'm on LinkedIn at, Yvonne Sharp. You 1012 00:36:36,295 --> 00:36:38,534 can also find me on Substack these days. 1013 00:36:38,534 --> 00:36:40,454 I'm trying to post an article every couple 1014 00:36:40,454 --> 00:36:40,889 weeks. 1015 00:36:41,369 --> 00:36:42,670 And then on, 1016 00:36:43,210 --> 00:36:44,670 x and blue sky. 1017 00:36:46,969 --> 00:36:47,630 And Tom? 1018 00:36:49,049 --> 00:36:49,549 LinkedIn. 1019 00:36:50,170 --> 00:36:51,849 He said it faster than I could even 1020 00:36:51,849 --> 00:36:52,750 say and Tom. 1021 00:36:54,489 --> 00:36:55,630 I'm working on it. 1022 00:36:57,065 --> 00:36:58,664 I was I was on a short flight 1023 00:36:58,664 --> 00:37:00,204 yesterday, and the, 1024 00:37:00,905 --> 00:37:02,045 the announcement was 1025 00:37:02,345 --> 00:37:04,585 please don't take longer to board the flight 1026 00:37:04,585 --> 00:37:06,505 than it will take your flight to arrive. 1027 00:37:06,505 --> 00:37:08,105 And I thought that's fine. No. That's yeah. 1028 00:37:08,105 --> 00:37:09,785 It's a good rule. That's a really good 1029 00:37:09,785 --> 00:37:10,285 rule. 1030 00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:13,059 Alright. Well, I'm Russ White. You can find 1031 00:37:13,059 --> 00:37:14,099 me here at The Hedge. You can find 1032 00:37:14,099 --> 00:37:15,380 me on rule11.tech. 1033 00:37:15,380 --> 00:37:16,440 You can find me 1034 00:37:17,059 --> 00:37:17,559 on 1035 00:37:17,940 --> 00:37:20,019 x knee, Twitter as routing geek. You can 1036 00:37:20,019 --> 00:37:21,880 find me on LinkedIn, whatever whatever. 1037 00:37:22,179 --> 00:37:23,505 Look around. You'll find me. 1038 00:37:24,224 --> 00:37:25,744 Thank you for listening to this episode of 1039 00:37:25,744 --> 00:37:26,944 The Hedge. We know that we live in 1040 00:37:26,944 --> 00:37:29,744 an attention driven economy, and your attention is 1041 00:37:29,744 --> 00:37:30,244 perhaps 1042 00:37:31,025 --> 00:37:32,625 the well, I don't know. It's the the 1043 00:37:32,625 --> 00:37:35,364 thing that everybody's trading money on now. So 1044 00:37:36,860 --> 00:37:38,860 thanks for taking the time. People pay for 1045 00:37:38,860 --> 00:37:40,619 eyeballs. They do. They pay for eyeballs. And 1046 00:37:40,619 --> 00:37:43,179 so thanks for taking the time, and we 1047 00:37:43,179 --> 00:37:44,559 will catch you next time.