Welcome to the Landscape, your show about public lands and the outdoors.
I'm Kate Retinger from the Center for Western Priorities in Salt Lake City.
And I'm Erin Weiss in Denver. Today we're talking about the past, present,
and future of the Colorado River with someone who has spent years documenting
the lifeblood of the West.
Pete McBride is a world renowned photographer and storyteller.
You may have seen his work with the National Geographic Society on Disney Plus
or his many books.
Pete's traveled to 75 countries on assignment,
but his focus now is on the river that he grew up with here in the West.
But first, a little news,
it looks like Senator Joe Manchin's permitting reform Bill is dead for now,
but he's not giving up on it yet.
This is Manchin's attempt to speed up the environmental reviews that are
required for big energy projects from oil and gas to renewables.
And it would also clear the way for his pet project,
the Mountain Valley Pipeline,
which would carry methane from West Virginia to Virginia.
Manchin was hoping the bill would be included in a must pass spending package
during the lame duck session.
But progressives in the house led by Natural Resources Committee Chairman Ra
Grava, threatened to vote no, and it got dropped.
So now Manchin has a new version of his bill, and the language,
believe it or not, has gotten worse. Uh,
it is much closer to a proposal from Manchin's fellow West Virginia,
it Republican, Shelley Moore Capito.
If you wanna dive more into the nitty gritty on permitting reform and why from a
data perspective, Manchin is barking up the completely wrong tree here.
Head back a few episodes in this feed for our interview with law Professor Jamie
Plum.
And while we're talking about the lame duck session,
we're watching to see if the Senate will finally confirm Laura Daniel Davis as
the Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals Management at the Interior
Department. Laura has been stuck in Senate limbo for nearly two years.
She's gone through two full confirmation hearings in front of Manchin and
Republican ranking member John Baraso,
and now she just needs a final confirmation vote on the Senate floor to
officially take the job.
But it's not clear if majority leader Chuck Schumer will make enough time on the
Senate calendar to get it done.
And that is a problem for the Biden administration's renewable energy goals.
It's easy to overlook a position with a title as long and
boring, I guess, as Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals,
but that is the job that oversees basically everything when it comes
to onshore and offshore energy production on public lands and waters,
all the permitting, all the lease sales,
all the auctions to start work on new offshore wind.
All of that goes across the desk of Laura Daniel Davis.
It is not an understatement to say that she's the lynchpin of the
administration's energy strategy.
She's maybe the most important political appointee you've never heard of.
And if she's not confirmed in the next two weeks, it's not clear that she,
she has any intention to stick around for a third round of this nonsense in the
Senate. And you can't blame her.
It is no fun being a political punching bag for folks like Manchin Baraso and
Lisa Murkowski because Laura Daniel Davis has been serving in an acting
capacity while the Senate stalls on her nomination.
There is no one under her to fill those shoes if she leaves going
without an assistant secretary for Landon Minerals could set the
administration's renewable energy plans back for six months or a year maybe
until the president can nominate someone new and get them up to speed in the
job. And with only two years left in his first term,
that is time that President Biden doesn't have right now. So,
Senator Schumer, if you are listening to this podcast, like I'm sure you do,
hurry it on up. Get Laura Daniel Davis on the calendar, please.
Okay. Let's talk photography. Pete McBride is our guest this week,
and unfortunately, my internet connection died, um,
as soon as we started interviewing him. So Aaron, uh,
tell us a little bit about this interview.
Yeah, I I'm sorry that you missed most of this because Pete was wonderful. Uh,
as an amateur photographer myself,
I get really excited about interviews like this.
Pete has spent decades traveling the world, taking pictures,
making documentaries, I mean really dream job territory.
And it says something about Pete,
that he has largely transitioned away from all of those international gigs to
now telling the story of the Colorado River.
He even hiked the entire length of the Grand Canyon. Uh,
I think our CWP colleague Lauren Bogard,
was almost as excited as I was to talk to Pete.
So she joined us for the interview too,
even after your internet connection died, Kate. So here,
take a listen and enjoy.
Our guest today is a photographer, filmmaker, and writer.
He has been to more than 75 countries on assignment for clients,
ranging from the National Geographic Society to the Smithsonian.
And after a decade documenting expeditions from Everest to Antarctica,
he turned his cameras to his backyard, the Colorado River,
which turned into a book, three documentaries, and a P B S show.
His National Geographic channel documentary into the Grand Canyon was nominated
for an Emmy in 2020. Pete McBride, it is an honor to have you on the podcast.
Thanks so much for having me.
Pete. You've spent years now focusing on the Colorado River.
What folks may not necessarily realize is that you grew up near the headwaters
of the river in the Rocky Mountains in Colorado.
Can you share some of your first memories of the river?
Uh, yeah, thanks Erin. Um, earliest memories, uh, on the river? Well,
uh, I actually did grow up, uh, in the headwaters of the Colorado River,
and I actually learned more or less to swim in it. Um,
I grew up, um, my father was, when I was, I was little,
he got into cattle ranching and we had this small piece of property down here
still Colorado,
and he built this crazy suspension bridge over the Colorado River, which is,
I think the poles are still there. It's long. The bridge is pretty much gone.
It's been that land's been sold and sadly turned into a gravel pit. Um,
but we used to swim off that, jump off it, um,
spend hours sort of wandering around in the muck in the Merck and,
and looking for, uh, every, a little crustaceans and so forth.
And so it's kind of a place of wonder for me to start with.
So, Pete,
I understand your family has a ranch that uses water from the Colorado,
and I'm curious,
how has that firsthand experience changed your perspective on the river?
So we have, um, uh, a ranch in,
at about 8,000 feet in the Rocky Mountains, um,
south of the Roaring Fork River, a tributary of the Colorado.
And I grew up irrigating many of those fields. Um,
and now we have somebody else runs their cattle there and runs their operation.
And it made me think about water, in part because when you're irrigating,
you kind of have to sit there and stare at the water and try to figure out where
it's gonna go and sort of think for the water or try to at least,
and it gives you time to ponder, uh,
this kind of cycle of life. Um, I would go up and check the head gates,
clean it from beaver dams, um,
trying to keep the flow consistent and then often wondered, you know,
how long it would take the water to get across the field. We've,
we've since adjusted to gravity-fed sprinklers. Um, we've also,
um, exploring ideas of,
of figuring out ways to potentially donate some of our irrigation water back to
the river on a temporary basis. Um,
sort of new models are emerging in that area, um,
because of course, agriculture is one of the biggest straws on the river.
So I've become very aware of that. But I'm, I'm also,
you know, it's, it's, it's a complex system and trying to understand it.
And so I had, I guess my foot in the, the creek, so to speak,
from a young age, um, chasing water as,
as we often described, irrigation . And, uh,
and it made me,
it made me think about it ways later in life when I came back and started
hearing about drought. I was like, wait a second. There, there's, um,
there's a complex cycle here,
and obviously I'm very much a part of it, my family and,
and I need to figure this out and become better educated and understand the
system better.
So how,
how long ago was it that you turned a lot of your focus from this
international work to documenting the Colorado River Basin?
How has that been a decade or more now?
That's been about a decade. Yeah, it was in, uh, late two, um,
around 2008. I came back in, interestingly, my father,
he's a single engine pilot,
and he started encouraging me that I should start focusing my lenses on the,
the American Southwest. Um, and a lot around how we're losing,
um, a lot of open space ranchlands in particular to development.
And he was very concerned. And, and he was also saying, you know,
there's a big change in water. And, and so I was finally like, wow, you're,
you're really right. I, I am, and I'm kind of welcoming the idea of,
of not traveling so far and maybe decreasing my carbon
footprint, um, but really it'd be nice to work closer to home.
And I got this assignment for National Geographic, uh,
one of their adventure publications, um, that does no longer.
And I was following a friend of mine who decided to paddle the length of the
Colorado River, a guy named John Waterman.
And it started out as a simple adventure story. Um,
and I quickly realized that I needed to get up in the air to see this,
this ribbon of life and how it, how far it goes, and its reach,
uh, because it's so vast and also needed to get a different perspective because
there's been so many images of the Colorado River on, on the shore,
on the river itself. And so I actually used my father,
I hired him to help fly. And, um,
the more I dug into the story, and the more I followed my friend John,
the more I realized that this was a huge story that was being,
not many people were talking about it. Few people understood it,
myself included.
I didn't realize that this river was so intricate and so
important. It was such a lifeline for the Southwest.
It's now serves 40 million Americans. And, uh,
I started realizing, I, I really need to focus on this.
This isn't just one magazine story. This could be a lot of, um, this could be a,
a lot more. And, and inadvertently it's become, I think the river,
I guess on some hand called me because it's become,
in some ways kind of my life's work. And, uh,
I continue to work on it and try to tell the story that I think we're just
starting to become more aware of on a, on a national scale, um, uh,
as we should.
Uh, how,
how have you seen the rivers change in the Colorado River Basin in that last
10, 15 years that you've really turned your focus back home?
? Have I seen him change? Well, um,
that would be an understatement. Um,
the first change that,
that I noticed and was alarmed at when I,
and really made me pivot in my work to focus more on this,
was when I came to the end of the Colorado River at the US Mexican
border, which historically was not the end of the river. The river, you know,
was believed to have flowed to the Gulf of California for 6 million years.
But I found the terminus just two miles into Mexico, some 90 miles,
a hundred miles shy. Uh,
so it used to feed this Delta one,
what was the largest desert estuary in North America. Um,
a place where we actually, um, in the early 19 hundreds,
they would take steam ships down the delta to go from, um,
Arizona to California before the railroad connected.
And when I did this early story and followed my friend John, we,
we paddled little pack graphs down there in this sort of sliver of water,
and just two miles into Mexico, it dried up in this kind of frothy,
what I call a frappuccino pit of Merck and muck and garbage and plastic
bottles. And then we walked,
literally walked with our boats on our back for roughly a hundred miles.
Uh, that did not exist when I was born. Um,
it was still an estuary maybe starting to break up and dry up.
So just in my lifetime,
the Colorado River has run dry now since that time.
Uh, we've, through the effort of, of a few really,
there's been some amazing restoration efforts.
There's been some pulse flows that have reconnected the river to the sea
briefly. Um,
I actually paddled one of them in 2014 and became the last one of
three people to paddle the river to the sea, which I don't really say proudly.
I just sort of say like, wow, that's a crazy way to think about it,
because I grew up with the concept of rivers flow to the sea.
It's sort of how I learned about 'em. Um, but of course, many think otherwise.
I think of rivers as plumbing systems and something that water flowing
into the sea or the ocean is wasteful. But, uh, it really isn't. It's, it,
I I I create the analogy.
It's like saying blood in your veins or arteries would be wasteful. Um,
it's part of a system that connects. They're,
they really are lifelines and they help support this intricate web of life that
ultimately support us.
And we often forget that we think we're removed from nature,
but we're really part of it. And these river systems and watersheds, um,
really sustain it on so many levels.
So from the time that the river that ice witnessed it run dry until
today, it has population has swelled.
It was only 30 million Americans then now it's gone to 40 million Americans. So,
um, roughly a 30% increase. Um,
agriculture is still a big straw. Recreation is boomed, but the river,
um, has diminished even more so, uh, because there are are more,
there's more straws, there's more mouths to, to supply water to.
But there's also, um, a math problem.
We think there was more water in the river than there really is.
And now we're pulling it out. And now climate, uh,
change is really exacerbating the system by making places that are hot and dry,
hotter and drier already. And the weather patterns are unpredictable.
The rains and snows come and bursts and then run off quickly.
It's harder for the soil and the water table to absorb it. Um,
and so now our reservoirs like the two largest in America, lake Mead and,
and Lake Powell are now down to under 24%
full. Um,
they've been in the news people finding bodies in Lake Mead and so forth,
but Lake Powell upstream of the Grand Canyon is, um, dangerously low,
very complicated situation with a dam on the hydroelectric there where we're
facing the possibility of not having enough water to run the turbines,
um, on Glen Canyon Dam. And so these, um,
these are huge changes, and those are compounded, those are almost those,
um,
deficits in the reservoirs are double of what they were when I first started the
project. So it's really moving expon exponentially. And, uh,
now it's, we're seeing these challenges,
not just downstream and the reservoirs or at the delta,
but all the way up at the snowpack. Snowpack has changed. We now get these snow,
these dusty snowstorms from increased development to the west. Uh,
and that ex speeds up the melt off process. Um,
and then also enabling plants to come to life and,
and drink, absorb water sooner. The transitive Eva operation system has, um,
has grown. So there's more, more thirst, really more,
um, demand on the river even up here.
So that's just kind of the tip of the iceberg on it. There's many more changes,
but it is, it's amazing, um,
how much is happening and how quickly it's happening.
So I wanna come back to this, uh,
concept of a really long walk because I understand you've had an up close and
personal experience walking the length of Grand Canyon National Park for
750 miles.
And I can't fathom how you somehow managed to carry all your camera and
videography gear, but I'm sure that's another story in itself. So I'm,
I'm curious, you've also observed and recorded the river from the air,
and I wanna,
I'd love to hear you talk more about the insights you've gained about the river
and the surrounding landscape from the air versus from the ground.
It's a great question. Um, we'll start with the air.
Um, so I started doing aerial imagery because my father is a pilot and,
uh, he, uh, he was a fun guy to actually hire.
I ended up hiring him, um, and paying his fuel costs and so forth.
And so we became, we, we became good wing wingman, so to speak.
Um, and what I think is interesting about the aerial perspective is it gives you
scale. It,
it shows you how vast the land is and how small this ribbon of life is. The,
the Colorado River and, and all the many little arteries and veins,
the tributaries that supply it are.
And it quickly,
I hel I think it helps give us humility
on the landscape. And you realize just how,
how vast and arid, um, the American Southwest is,
how little this river is that's, that's being asked to do so much.
Um, and then you quickly see all the diversions and the demands on it, um,
in a,
in a very sobering per scale and perspective. Um,
and for instance, most people in Denver,
um,
do not realize that 50% of their drinking water comes from the Colorado River.
Coming all the way over the right, over the continental divide. Yeah.
Yeah. Or underneath the continental divide. Yes,
there's 22 turns basin diversion tunnels that, um,
supply Denver and Boulder and Colorado Springs and Pueblo. Um,
most people don't know that.
And the interesting thing there is that's water that's leaving the Colorado
River Basin and being brought over to the Mississippi Basin and,
and not to return. So we're, we're,
we're pulling a deficit of the system from the top. Um,
an aerial perspective kind of makes you realize that a little bit. It helps. Um,
and then the same goes downstream. For instance, Phoenix,
50% of their drinking water comes from a diversion canal called the Central
Arizona Project, which goes 336 miles uphill, pumped uphill.
It shows our amazing ability to engineer and, and move water. Uh,
it also goes to Tucson, um,
and they don't realize that this is where their water comes from.
And so I think it helps show us that our water does not come
from the tap. It comes from these very fragile ecosystems. Um,
and that we have really engineered them into plumbing systems and, uh,
and how quickly these landscapes can change.
You can see where a little water will make a landscape green, and without it,
it is incredibly dry. Um, so that's the aerial perspective. I,
the last thing I'll say on that is I think it shows us where we have been as
humans and where we have not, and our impact as human beings,
which is, is good for us to, to realize how much impact we have on,
on this shared world. Um, now from the ground, yes,
I did spend, um, a year walking the entire length of the Grand Canyon, um,
from east to west inside the canyon. Uh, not on the rim,
not not following the river, um, on a boat. It was all on foot.
You can't follow the river cuz it's too cliff in, in many sections. And that,
um, speaking of humility,
I mean that's what the Grand Canyon does the best is it dishes out, humility.
Uh, and that made me realize a number of things.
Just how wild and remarkable that landscape is,
uh, how fragile it is, um, how it is sculpted by that river.
Uh, the basement of it, um,
grand Canyon is 277 miles long of the Grand Canyon.
We had to walk close to 800 miles cuz you had to go a around a lot of these
cliffy tributaries. But it, it also, there's a saying that there's,
the desert has just the right amount of water.
And you see that in the Grand Canyon. These,
these ecosystems live on very little and you see it somewhat
of in a wild landscape right here in our backyard, really. Um,
and oftentimes we're always trying to change these landscapes and
green them or make the west more like the east. And, um,
I think that walk really made me realize how,
how kind of amazing these ecosystems are as they are.
Uh, it also made me realize how valuable water is of course,
cuz I had to find it every day. I couldn't carry enough water. Um, and,
and what you can actually live on,
the average American family uses about 230 gallons per day.
Now that's a household with, you know, washers and dryers, et cetera,
but how much water do you as an individual need?
And we often don't think about that. But in the Grand Canyon,
I had to face that daily as I had to find it.
And we were living off about six liters. Yeah. Um, that doesn't include showers.
So, you know, we didn't smell great, but , um, that's part of the deal.
.
Uh, you know, I I you you mentioned turning on the Central Arizona project in,
in Phoenix and Tucson having lived in Tucson when they turned that on,
everyone living there at the time was very aware of it because the water
suddenly tasted terrible going from groundwater to the pumped in
Colorado River. And you had this moment where there was, I think,
universal awareness in, in the city of Tucson that wow,
something really changed with our, our water. And eventually they,
they flipped it off and went to recharge and have now brought back
the Santa Cruz river, which was dry.
Nothing in it growing up was a dry wash. And now thanks to Recharge,
we've basically transplanted the Colorado River into the Santa Cruz
River, created a new riparian area in Tucson,
which is beautiful when you're downtown. But you are still aware,
well we're,
we're Rob and Peter to pay Paul here because that is now not water that is
flowing back down to Mexico, Yuma anywhere along the way.
And I, I don't,
I don't know that folks in Tucson are necessarily appreciative of that anymore.
I guess that that's not, that's neither here nor there. But in terms of,
I guess, diverting water in these, the,
the lowering levels that you are mentioning,
lake Mead and Lake Powell both getting precariously low in
addition to the bodies that are turning up at Lake Mead.
Lake Powell is revealing a,
a whole lot of archeology and human history where from cliff
dwellings to, uh, to, to cliff art,
uh, that has been buried now for several decades.
Have you gotten the chance, first of all to go and see any of that and,
and what would you go and look for as a photographer, uh,
if you had had that opportunity to watch Lake Powell reveal secrets that have
been underwater for several decades?
Yeah, it's Lake Powell's amazing, uh, on many fronts. Um,
quickly back to the Santa Cruz. Yeah, I think that is remarkable cuz it,
that is another example of how we, we, we,
we play mastermind with these ecosystems that we're working,
that are so efficient in so many ways. Um, and then we,
we tweak 'em and then don't realize the unintended consequences.
And we seem to be in a re re repetitious cycle on that one. But with,
with Lake Powell, which is another sort of cycle of sorts,
um, you know, John Wellsley Powell went down there in 1869 and, you know,
he described it as like the Lord's work and the greatest work these,
these Glens and alcoves.
And then we've turned it into what is,
I believe the second largest reservoir in the United States has more shoreline
than the coast of California, or it did. Um, truly amazing.
And I grew up going there. Uh,
I learned a water ski there and I did what many of us do in Colorado.
We'd go there to have a family trip or something. And you cliff jump. Well,
today,
I mentioned earlier it's down to about 23 and a half percent full.
So 75% of what that lake is is gone.
And it's left these huge bathtub rings that are, you know,
in some cases over 200 feet high, kind of this white, um,
tarnished look on this, this orange sandstone.
And so many people are saying it's really sad and it,
on many levels it is, it's economies a vanished. The, the, um,
the boat ramps are now miles from the shore. You, they've been closed. Um,
yet there's another silver lining.
And I just hit a stories for Smithsonian where I went down and explored, um,
these side canyons and slots that have been underwater my
entire life. And I walked up them and I,
yes, I found moki steps,
which are the ancient puebloan kind of hand carved ladders. I found, um,
pictographs and artwork, um, places that I couldn't get to,
but I could see old dwellings that are still there. Um,
my father actually walked up a slot side canyon of Escal in
the late sixties before it had fully flooded.
And he showed me these old super eight videos of him walking through these
amazing cottonwood groves.
And I tried to go up the same one to see where he went. And to my amazement,
we found it and the cottonwood groves are still there. Wow.
They are, they're, they're dead and blackened, but the trees never fell.
And they are reappeared and the silk at the base is starting to slowly
erode back away with some of the monsoon rains.
And then when you walk further up into it, where the, the bathtub ring,
as we call it, those white stains are starting to wash away.
You find places like cathedral and desert,
which is one of the most amazing overhanging
glen alcove landscapes I've ever been to. Um,
there's another one I went up in Willow Canyon that had an alcove that is larger
and more
kind of spiritual and remarkable than any overhanging
alcove canyon I've seen in Grand Canyon. Hmm. Um,
and further up we were seeing evidence of wildlife, bobcat, coyote,
um, a lot of bird life. Some trees are returning, uh,
found a freshwater orchid. I didn't know that existed. Um,
but it is starting to grow back. And so as my friend, um,
I went there with two friends. Uh, one works with the Glen Canyon Institute, um,
and, and another one lives down in Tucson, actually. Uh, his name is Len.
And he had this great liner, he said at the end he said, well,
nature your bats last.
. Yes, indeed.
And, uh, yes it does.
And we saw it batting last there and kind of bringing back it's
old glory. Uh,
and it really was truly remarkable to see, yes,
we're losing a lake. Yes. The challenges of water and our, you know,
infrastructure that we came accustomed to around it is changing rapidly faster
than maybe we were prepared for.
But on many levels we are gaining a a,
it's not a national park, but it easily could be. Mm-hmm. , um,
lake Powell is leaving us, but Glen Canyon is returning in all,
its many of its glories.
That's, uh, it's Lin Nesser, I presume, who, who we talked to, uh, on our,
our podcast and we were in Tucson. He,
he might have even said Nature Bats last in in that episode . So yes.
I I it would've been a remarkable experience doing,
doing that exploration with Len there by your side .
Yeah, we had, we had a lot of laughs and, uh, you know,
some moments of struggle too working through quicksand and silt. Wow. But, uh,
yeah, he's, he is a great perspective on it too. And, um,
his, he has, um, he's half Navajo, so he has a,
a native perspective that I think is critical. And, um,
especially today because my experience in the Grand Canyon is,
is, um, we often think of that place as empty, but it is, um,
it's full of not just a wide range of biodiversity,
but it is full of Native American history,
but ongoing cultural life.
There are a lot of Native American tribes that live around Grand Canyon and
we're starting to bring their voice back to the table as we should,
not just for their perspective and wisdom,
but also because they have rights to up to 20% of the
Colorado River. Um,
now all these rights on the river may change to a percentage cuz we're forced
to, but it's, um, they still exist and they're still documented. So it's,
um, I think it's, um, perspectives like line have are, are,
are critical today.
So, Pete, thinking of documentation and storytelling,
both of those things are inherent in all of your
work, but I'm curious, do you consider yourself a conservationist?
And if so,
maybe share with us how and when you began to identify as
such.
Um, so my, I consider myself, um, first and foremost,
I guess a human being. , um, you know,
one of my fellow humans is in trouble and I'm photographing,
I'll put the camera down. Um, but, uh, I, um,
I've been a photographer, moved into filmmaking. I've been a writer and I,
I think I've always been somewhat of a conservationist,
um, just because I believe, um, we're just stewards of the land.
We're lucky to be connected to it and we're just moving through it. It's,
even the ownership game is interesting. Um, and I, you know,
native culture has a lot of thoughts on that,
but I think we have a lot to learn from our natural systems. Um, and we are,
we're not the smartest on the system. I'd say often we're the dumbest.
But, um, as a conservationist, yes, I,
uh, many people try to label me as an activist in this,
but ultimately I try to just tell stories and be as objective as I
possibly can with the, with a camera and I let the camera do the work. Um,
cuz in today's divided divisive political world where climate change
is even politicized, I try to show people more than tell, um,
with my imagery. And if you show, you know,
images of a river that they've never,
never been to like the Colorado or, or maybe they have, if you show 'em them,
it running dry and you,
you show them that they're all their winter salad bowl comes
from this water source, um, it may change their perspective a little bit.
Um, so that's why I try to think about it. Um, and I,
I often do talks and presentations with my,
my work to people with very different perspectives on,
on nature and climate, but I,
I think sometimes I can find a common ground through, um,
through the imagery, um, through the place. And, um, so I,
I find that can be sometimes more effective than throwing a bunch of facts and
you should, or you oughts at them.
I think that kind of brings up how your work as compared
to say a traditional landscape photographer that is just out there to capture
the most beautiful shot of horseshoe band or or wherever they are,
your work very much has a more journalistic or,
or documentary feel to it. I think when I, I look at your,
your images and the other thing that I I'm very aware of looking at your work
is that you are not just photographing the landscape, but you are,
you are taking photos of the human impact on the landscape, including a,
a rather remarkable shot, uh, a a time lapse, if you will, of all the,
the boats and helicopters floating over the Grand Canyon.
How, how do you approach your work that way when you're thinking about,
am I photographing a place? Am I photographing people?
Am I photographing them together?
Uh, another great question. I oftentimes, I'm just trying to find, um,
beauty. Um, I think we, we we love,
you know, looking at beautiful things. Um,
the world is of course saturated in imagery these days with all our social media
outlets.
And so I'm trying to find something that's both beautiful and captivating.
But I, I believe in story too. And I think story is often, um,
underestimated the power of it. So, uh,
the image you're referencing in the Grand Canyon, the story behind that is,
um,
I spent a day out there because there's a big air tour industry in Western Grand
Canyon that's kind of exploded in the last decade plus.
And I have nothing against aviation or helicopters. Um, I understand the,
the need and the desire, but I wanted to show how,
what impact looks like in just a 12 hour period.
So I spent all day out there and photographed every time a helicopter or boat
passed my lens, I would capture it. And then I,
I merged them together in one image. Um, and it was alarming on many fronts.
Um, some people didn't like it, but I think it,
it was a reality that we often ignore. We think we,
um, do the things that we love and like, and we have access to in this world,
in this, you know, first world.
And we don't think it has as much impact as maybe it does. Um,
and when you look at it in a collective lens of what is a day of traffic in the
Grand Canyon, when there's I photograph 363 helicopter flights,
dang. Um, and then the little boats that go through,
you start to realize that that is a soundscape that has completely changed
mm-hmm. , um, it's noisy from sunrise to sunset. Um,
and that is maybe a different wilderness national park experience than we
set out to originally have, uh,
originally was intended to be a national park wilderness experience. Um,
it becomes more of an amusement experience. Mm-hmm. . Um,
and so back to the question, I,
I think I'm just trying to figure out ways to do that. And, um,
I was very, very, um, mathematical.
I was very honest about how I did it. I had three people with me measuring,
you know, double counting the helicopters mm-hmm.
so people weren't accusing us of, of making it up. Um,
I drew maps of where each one flew and everyone's on a raw file so that they
could easily be seen and timestamped, et cetera, . So, um, so yes,
part of me is trying to show impact and I've done that in other places as well.
I've done it in Colorado here, or day of traffic in, you know,
the Aspen Airport after a sustainability conference.
You see a lot of private jets taking off.
Yes.
. So , um, I'm just trying to find ways to, you know,
get people's attention and, you know,
walking through the Grand Canyon and then in some ways there was really a way
just to highlight the magnificence of that place and how it's potentially
changing and how we're loving it to death like so many other places. Um,
but the adventure part walking through was just sort of a,
that was the backbone, that was just sort of the hook to try to bring, um,
some eyeballs to things that we need to pay attention to.
I really wanna ask you a little bit more about the pulse flow in
2014 when federal water managers, uh,
let additional water flow downstream in the Colorado River
Delta so that the river once again flowed all the way to the sea and as
it hadn't done in decades. And the reason I wanna ask you about this is,
uh, a lot of the imagery that we see right now and the reality that we can read
about is so dire.
And one of the things that it seems that that experiment did is showed people
what could be different or what had been possible in the past.
So I'm curious if you could talk more about what it was like watching people
react to a flowing river where there had previously been a dry wash
and, and maybe some of the changes that you observed in the ecosystem.
Yeah, that was one of the most re remarkable things I've ever seen.
Uh, and so just to back up, I had walked, um,
the Colorado River Delta. This is a delta to remind you that, you know,
Aldo Leopold, the great conservationist, had took a canoe across in 1922.
And he described flocks of birds so thick that it made
the sky black. Um, he described the river as nowhere and everywhere,
uh, cottonwood, forest, jaguars, et cetera. So when I went through in,
in late, uh, around, I guess it was around 2008, and I walked it,
it was just a cracker delta, I was like, oh my goodness, this is alarming.
I didn't actually ever think that I would see change there.
It just seemed like it was too impossible.
But thanks to the dedication and commitment of, of, again,
really just a few people, um, at the end of the day they, in 2014,
they did their big first big pulse flow was less than 1% of the Colorado River.
Um,
they opened up the gates to the more dam and they kind of let this titanic surge
of water blast out down through there.
The first thing that was amazing was to see the gates open.
The second was just downstream, not too far. Um,
in Rio, Colorado, um, this little hamlet that's over the border, um,
it was a total fiesta.
People were singing and dancing and dancing horses and having tacos and,
and ranchero music on the banks.
And people say, well, I've heard people say,
who cares if the river runs dry? We're putting it to good use.
We've engineered it. I,
I can guarantee you those people that live across the border,
or not just right on the border, but further south,
the cocoa native travel community,
that that was their ancestral fishing grounds. They were thrilled.
They love the river as much as the rest of us. Um,
for all the things that we love rivers for, just looking at 'em, walking in it,
you know, the old saying,
you never walk in the same river twice cuz it's just constantly changing.
So there was this human element that took me by great surprise,
it's obvious in hindsight, but at the moment I was like, oh my goodness,
this community misses the river. You as much as anybody, you know,
you drive past the dry river bed, you sort of forget there was a river there,
but they had not forgotten.
So that was amazing on so many fronts and so
delightful and so hopeful. The second one was that, um,
that the ecological memory down there was
truly remarkable.
There were crustacean that had been sitting in the dry sand banks
of the, the, the river for decades with no water.
And the minute this little pulse full of water hit,
they came to life and you could scoop up sand and see them swimming in your
hand.
And so the scientists and the hydrologists and the biologist were going bonkers.
I was like, this is incredible.
And then the last thing I'll bring up is that when I walked it, um,
there was a really empty soundscape.
It was a silence that was void of life, um,
not natural sounding.
And then we took paddle boards down through the pulse flow and
basically lived on the river. And, you know, it was not easy.
We had to kind of bush whack our way through,
but the soundscape totally came back to life and there was birds
and fish and insects. First, the mosquitoes were pissed and hungry .
But it, it was awesome. And, uh,
you know, back to the nature bats last, uh,
it was kind of nature stepping up to bat there and showing what it could do if
we give it a chance. And that was, yeah, very hopeful.
And they've since done another poles flow, not as large.
It didn't connect the river entirely.
They used irrigation canals and had to skip a very dry patch where the,
the water table is very depleted.
But they did connect the river back to the sea again, very briefly.
Nobody was able to paddle it to my understanding. But, um,
there is pockets of hope down there and a lot of that hope comes
from people that care. And it comes from the public and the voices, um,
of people saying, Hey, I I I do care and I, I want to see this change.
And, and so there is, there is some hope in what often seems like a very,
you know, dire situation.
We're running tight on time.
I could fill a whole separate episode with just technical questions about your
work as a photographer. But instead,
I want to ask a question about your creative process because the Grand Canyon
is obviously one of the most photographed places in America, if not the world.
How do you approach a subject like that or a Yellowstone or a
Yosemite and look for something new to bring to it as a,
as a creative professional?
Uh, I dunno, ,
I'm always trying to figure out something. Um,
there are many younger, um, more technically savvy,
I'll even say better photographers out there in the world. Um, filmmakers. Um,
I just try to come with a different unique perspective that I think is not being
looked at. Um, the Grand Canyon was, you know, hiking at, uh,
without a trail.
There was more people that stood on the moon than have had done that.
So that was kind of a unique angle and to look at the,
the challenges in a place we think is protected but maybe isn't as protected as
as we realize or hope. Um,
my last project was on silence, um,
something that we often probably forget or don't think
about, but the natural soundscape, which is not void of sound,
but of really rich with, with natural sounds. How we in our,
our mechanized world have changed that.
So that was a fun kind of spin on conservation,
maybe I call it the backdoor of conservation. And, um,
and now I'm just trying to, um, do a project again on the Colorado River.
I'm going out to do another book,
but I'm trying to do a short film with using kind of the,
the generational growth that I've had with my father as he
ages and, and looking at kind of passing these, you know,
this natural world onto the next generation and how he helped me look
at it differently. And, and so I guess that's how I'm,
I'm always trying to just find a little different angle, um,
because like I said, , there are many more talented, uh,
shooters out there than I am. So I have to think of story first and foremost.
So following up on that,
I'd love to hear what's left on your to-do list for places you want to,
to film and photograph.
Uh, what's left? Well, the, the list is long still. Um, I,
I, I joke my, I have, my body has high mileage, so there's some ,
some, some sore spots.
That's like Indiana Jones, right? It's the mileage.
Like that.
Cut the ears. .
not nearly as cool. But, um, uh,
I will continue working on the Colorado River. Like I said, I'm,
I'm gonna work on another book and I'm working on some more film work with kind
of the, the decade plus work I've been doing with my father. Um,
I'll work on other tributaries and, um, um,
I think just trying to make more people,
more the next generation more engaged and, um,
realize that there's a big wide,
wonderful world out there that we all share and is fragile and needs our
protection. And, um,
it ultimately is more interesting and engaging than the screens of our phone.
Um, if I can do that, that, you know,
that would be a big goal and I'll continue to do that. And, but, you know,
we all, we all need to do what we can do.
That's where we'll leave it. Photographer, filmmaker, journalist, speaker,
whatever el other hats you wanna wear today. Pete McBride, thank you so much.
It's, it's been a real pleasure having you on the podcast.
Thank you all. Thank you guys. It was, appreciate it.
For our good news this week.
Let's talk about the Interior Department's announcement that it's kicking off a
West Wide Solar review.
The review will involve updating a 2012 plan that guides solar energy
development on public lands.
The update will help identify new areas suitable for solar in which the BLM can
expedite permitting while avoiding land use and habitat conflicts.
The b l m is also initiating reviews of three proposed solar projects in Arizona
that could add one gigawatt of clean energy to the grid.
And do you know who's in the driver's seat for all of that?
Laura Daniel Davis.
. We call that a callback in the bench. Yes.
All right. That is it for today, folks.
You can find links to Pete McBride's work in the show notes as well as a link to
that episode on permitting reform that we talked about. And as always,
send your feedback podcast@westernpriorities.org.
Thanks again to Pete for sharing his stories with us.
And thank you for listening to the landscape.