1 00:00:07,010 --> 00:00:10,560 Welcome to the Landscape, your show about public lands and the outdoors. 2 00:00:10,740 --> 00:00:14,160 I'm Kate Retinger from the Center for Western Priorities in Salt Lake City. 3 00:00:14,300 --> 00:00:18,800 And I'm Erin Weiss in Denver. Today we're talking about the past, present, 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,200 and future of the Colorado River with someone who has spent years documenting 5 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:24,320 the lifeblood of the West. 6 00:00:24,630 --> 00:00:28,440 Pete McBride is a world renowned photographer and storyteller. 7 00:00:28,540 --> 00:00:33,200 You may have seen his work with the National Geographic Society on Disney Plus 8 00:00:33,250 --> 00:00:34,640 or his many books. 9 00:00:35,150 --> 00:00:38,320 Pete's traveled to 75 countries on assignment, 10 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,280 but his focus now is on the river that he grew up with here in the West. 11 00:00:43,060 --> 00:00:44,600 But first, a little news, 12 00:00:44,890 --> 00:00:48,520 it looks like Senator Joe Manchin's permitting reform Bill is dead for now, 13 00:00:48,620 --> 00:00:50,440 but he's not giving up on it yet. 14 00:00:50,590 --> 00:00:53,760 This is Manchin's attempt to speed up the environmental reviews that are 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,040 required for big energy projects from oil and gas to renewables. 16 00:00:57,100 --> 00:00:59,200 And it would also clear the way for his pet project, 17 00:00:59,220 --> 00:01:00,680 the Mountain Valley Pipeline, 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,520 which would carry methane from West Virginia to Virginia. 19 00:01:04,170 --> 00:01:07,440 Manchin was hoping the bill would be included in a must pass spending package 20 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:08,680 during the lame duck session. 21 00:01:08,860 --> 00:01:12,560 But progressives in the house led by Natural Resources Committee Chairman Ra 22 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,480 Grava, threatened to vote no, and it got dropped. 23 00:01:16,660 --> 00:01:21,010 So now Manchin has a new version of his bill, and the language, 24 00:01:21,010 --> 00:01:23,530 believe it or not, has gotten worse. Uh, 25 00:01:23,530 --> 00:01:27,010 it is much closer to a proposal from Manchin's fellow West Virginia, 26 00:01:27,010 --> 00:01:28,930 it Republican, Shelley Moore Capito. 27 00:01:29,260 --> 00:01:33,730 If you wanna dive more into the nitty gritty on permitting reform and why from a 28 00:01:33,730 --> 00:01:38,290 data perspective, Manchin is barking up the completely wrong tree here. 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,810 Head back a few episodes in this feed for our interview with law Professor Jamie 30 00:01:42,810 --> 00:01:43,643 Plum. 31 00:01:44,330 --> 00:01:46,470 And while we're talking about the lame duck session, 32 00:01:46,470 --> 00:01:50,190 we're watching to see if the Senate will finally confirm Laura Daniel Davis as 33 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:53,470 the Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals Management at the Interior 34 00:01:53,470 --> 00:01:57,470 Department. Laura has been stuck in Senate limbo for nearly two years. 35 00:01:57,590 --> 00:02:00,870 She's gone through two full confirmation hearings in front of Manchin and 36 00:02:00,870 --> 00:02:02,990 Republican ranking member John Baraso, 37 00:02:03,210 --> 00:02:06,550 and now she just needs a final confirmation vote on the Senate floor to 38 00:02:06,550 --> 00:02:07,630 officially take the job. 39 00:02:07,930 --> 00:02:11,510 But it's not clear if majority leader Chuck Schumer will make enough time on the 40 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:12,910 Senate calendar to get it done. 41 00:02:13,810 --> 00:02:17,670 And that is a problem for the Biden administration's renewable energy goals. 42 00:02:18,460 --> 00:02:22,510 It's easy to overlook a position with a title as long and 43 00:02:22,980 --> 00:02:26,670 boring, I guess, as Assistant Secretary for Land and Minerals, 44 00:02:27,010 --> 00:02:31,750 but that is the job that oversees basically everything when it comes 45 00:02:31,750 --> 00:02:35,590 to onshore and offshore energy production on public lands and waters, 46 00:02:35,850 --> 00:02:37,670 all the permitting, all the lease sales, 47 00:02:37,670 --> 00:02:40,550 all the auctions to start work on new offshore wind. 48 00:02:40,930 --> 00:02:44,550 All of that goes across the desk of Laura Daniel Davis. 49 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:49,070 It is not an understatement to say that she's the lynchpin of the 50 00:02:49,070 --> 00:02:50,630 administration's energy strategy. 51 00:02:51,190 --> 00:02:54,670 She's maybe the most important political appointee you've never heard of. 52 00:02:55,090 --> 00:02:59,030 And if she's not confirmed in the next two weeks, it's not clear that she, 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,880 she has any intention to stick around for a third round of this nonsense in the 54 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:04,520 Senate. And you can't blame her. 55 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,920 It is no fun being a political punching bag for folks like Manchin Baraso and 56 00:03:08,920 --> 00:03:13,720 Lisa Murkowski because Laura Daniel Davis has been serving in an acting 57 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:16,280 capacity while the Senate stalls on her nomination. 58 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,200 There is no one under her to fill those shoes if she leaves going 59 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,600 without an assistant secretary for Landon Minerals could set the 60 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,640 administration's renewable energy plans back for six months or a year maybe 61 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,960 until the president can nominate someone new and get them up to speed in the 62 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,240 job. And with only two years left in his first term, 63 00:03:36,390 --> 00:03:40,360 that is time that President Biden doesn't have right now. So, 64 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,560 Senator Schumer, if you are listening to this podcast, like I'm sure you do, 65 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,160 hurry it on up. Get Laura Daniel Davis on the calendar, please. 66 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,730 Okay. Let's talk photography. Pete McBride is our guest this week, 67 00:03:52,730 --> 00:03:55,450 and unfortunately, my internet connection died, um, 68 00:03:55,450 --> 00:03:58,410 as soon as we started interviewing him. So Aaron, uh, 69 00:03:58,410 --> 00:04:00,090 tell us a little bit about this interview. 70 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,490 Yeah, I I'm sorry that you missed most of this because Pete was wonderful. Uh, 71 00:04:05,490 --> 00:04:07,370 as an amateur photographer myself, 72 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,050 I get really excited about interviews like this. 73 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,770 Pete has spent decades traveling the world, taking pictures, 74 00:04:13,770 --> 00:04:17,650 making documentaries, I mean really dream job territory. 75 00:04:18,070 --> 00:04:20,050 And it says something about Pete, 76 00:04:20,050 --> 00:04:24,290 that he has largely transitioned away from all of those international gigs to 77 00:04:24,290 --> 00:04:26,290 now telling the story of the Colorado River. 78 00:04:26,620 --> 00:04:30,450 He even hiked the entire length of the Grand Canyon. Uh, 79 00:04:30,450 --> 00:04:33,170 I think our CWP colleague Lauren Bogard, 80 00:04:33,170 --> 00:04:35,690 was almost as excited as I was to talk to Pete. 81 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:37,930 So she joined us for the interview too, 82 00:04:37,930 --> 00:04:41,730 even after your internet connection died, Kate. So here, 83 00:04:41,730 --> 00:04:42,850 take a listen and enjoy. 84 00:04:46,070 --> 00:04:49,370 Our guest today is a photographer, filmmaker, and writer. 85 00:04:49,380 --> 00:04:53,050 He has been to more than 75 countries on assignment for clients, 86 00:04:53,220 --> 00:04:56,650 ranging from the National Geographic Society to the Smithsonian. 87 00:04:56,990 --> 00:05:01,370 And after a decade documenting expeditions from Everest to Antarctica, 88 00:05:01,860 --> 00:05:05,170 he turned his cameras to his backyard, the Colorado River, 89 00:05:05,330 --> 00:05:09,410 which turned into a book, three documentaries, and a P B S show. 90 00:05:09,750 --> 00:05:13,930 His National Geographic channel documentary into the Grand Canyon was nominated 91 00:05:13,930 --> 00:05:18,130 for an Emmy in 2020. Pete McBride, it is an honor to have you on the podcast. 92 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:20,690 Thanks so much for having me. 93 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:26,090 Pete. You've spent years now focusing on the Colorado River. 94 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:31,050 What folks may not necessarily realize is that you grew up near the headwaters 95 00:05:31,050 --> 00:05:33,490 of the river in the Rocky Mountains in Colorado. 96 00:05:33,910 --> 00:05:37,730 Can you share some of your first memories of the river? 97 00:05:38,540 --> 00:05:42,970 Uh, yeah, thanks Erin. Um, earliest memories, uh, on the river? Well, 98 00:05:43,260 --> 00:05:47,890 uh, I actually did grow up, uh, in the headwaters of the Colorado River, 99 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:52,400 and I actually learned more or less to swim in it. Um, 100 00:05:52,790 --> 00:05:57,430 I grew up, um, my father was, when I was, I was little, 101 00:05:57,430 --> 00:06:00,670 he got into cattle ranching and we had this small piece of property down here 102 00:06:00,670 --> 00:06:01,310 still Colorado, 103 00:06:01,310 --> 00:06:05,790 and he built this crazy suspension bridge over the Colorado River, which is, 104 00:06:05,820 --> 00:06:09,110 I think the poles are still there. It's long. The bridge is pretty much gone. 105 00:06:09,110 --> 00:06:14,070 It's been that land's been sold and sadly turned into a gravel pit. Um, 106 00:06:14,090 --> 00:06:18,710 but we used to swim off that, jump off it, um, 107 00:06:18,750 --> 00:06:23,310 spend hours sort of wandering around in the muck in the Merck and, 108 00:06:23,310 --> 00:06:27,870 and looking for, uh, every, a little crustaceans and so forth. 109 00:06:27,870 --> 00:06:31,510 And so it's kind of a place of wonder for me to start with. 110 00:06:32,580 --> 00:06:33,330 So, Pete, 111 00:06:33,330 --> 00:06:37,450 I understand your family has a ranch that uses water from the Colorado, 112 00:06:37,830 --> 00:06:38,690 and I'm curious, 113 00:06:38,950 --> 00:06:42,970 how has that firsthand experience changed your perspective on the river? 114 00:06:44,270 --> 00:06:48,300 So we have, um, uh, a ranch in, 115 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:51,060 at about 8,000 feet in the Rocky Mountains, um, 116 00:06:52,060 --> 00:06:55,220 south of the Roaring Fork River, a tributary of the Colorado. 117 00:06:55,220 --> 00:06:59,820 And I grew up irrigating many of those fields. Um, 118 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,060 and now we have somebody else runs their cattle there and runs their operation. 119 00:07:05,190 --> 00:07:09,570 And it made me think about water, in part because when you're irrigating, 120 00:07:09,570 --> 00:07:13,410 you kind of have to sit there and stare at the water and try to figure out where 121 00:07:13,410 --> 00:07:17,500 it's gonna go and sort of think for the water or try to at least, 122 00:07:18,090 --> 00:07:21,350 and it gives you time to ponder, uh, 123 00:07:21,350 --> 00:07:25,950 this kind of cycle of life. Um, I would go up and check the head gates, 124 00:07:26,270 --> 00:07:28,910 clean it from beaver dams, um, 125 00:07:28,910 --> 00:07:33,120 trying to keep the flow consistent and then often wondered, you know, 126 00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:36,200 how long it would take the water to get across the field. We've, 127 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,290 we've since adjusted to gravity-fed sprinklers. Um, we've also, 128 00:07:41,090 --> 00:07:42,760 um, exploring ideas of, 129 00:07:42,810 --> 00:07:47,080 of figuring out ways to potentially donate some of our irrigation water back to 130 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,090 the river on a temporary basis. Um, 131 00:07:50,090 --> 00:07:53,770 sort of new models are emerging in that area, um, 132 00:07:54,180 --> 00:07:57,770 because of course, agriculture is one of the biggest straws on the river. 133 00:07:57,770 --> 00:08:02,350 So I've become very aware of that. But I'm, I'm also, 134 00:08:02,970 --> 00:08:07,910 you know, it's, it's, it's a complex system and trying to understand it. 135 00:08:07,930 --> 00:08:12,270 And so I had, I guess my foot in the, the creek, so to speak, 136 00:08:12,270 --> 00:08:15,750 from a young age, um, chasing water as, 137 00:08:15,750 --> 00:08:18,990 as we often described, irrigation . And, uh, 138 00:08:19,730 --> 00:08:20,990 and it made me, 139 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,750 it made me think about it ways later in life when I came back and started 140 00:08:24,750 --> 00:08:27,590 hearing about drought. I was like, wait a second. There, there's, um, 141 00:08:27,590 --> 00:08:29,670 there's a complex cycle here, 142 00:08:29,770 --> 00:08:34,750 and obviously I'm very much a part of it, my family and, 143 00:08:34,750 --> 00:08:38,800 and I need to figure this out and become better educated and understand the 144 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:39,633 system better. 145 00:08:39,890 --> 00:08:40,723 So how, 146 00:08:40,740 --> 00:08:45,120 how long ago was it that you turned a lot of your focus from this 147 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,520 international work to documenting the Colorado River Basin? 148 00:08:48,580 --> 00:08:51,840 How has that been a decade or more now? 149 00:08:52,190 --> 00:08:55,760 That's been about a decade. Yeah, it was in, uh, late two, um, 150 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:00,560 around 2008. I came back in, interestingly, my father, 151 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:02,320 he's a single engine pilot, 152 00:09:02,380 --> 00:09:06,640 and he started encouraging me that I should start focusing my lenses on the, 153 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,960 the American Southwest. Um, and a lot around how we're losing, 154 00:09:11,870 --> 00:09:16,020 um, a lot of open space ranchlands in particular to development. 155 00:09:16,020 --> 00:09:19,060 And he was very concerned. And, and he was also saying, you know, 156 00:09:19,060 --> 00:09:23,540 there's a big change in water. And, and so I was finally like, wow, you're, 157 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:28,020 you're really right. I, I am, and I'm kind of welcoming the idea of, 158 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:33,450 of not traveling so far and maybe decreasing my carbon 159 00:09:33,450 --> 00:09:36,970 footprint, um, but really it'd be nice to work closer to home. 160 00:09:37,030 --> 00:09:41,090 And I got this assignment for National Geographic, uh, 161 00:09:41,090 --> 00:09:45,250 one of their adventure publications, um, that does no longer. 162 00:09:46,270 --> 00:09:49,610 And I was following a friend of mine who decided to paddle the length of the 163 00:09:49,770 --> 00:09:51,210 Colorado River, a guy named John Waterman. 164 00:09:51,670 --> 00:09:56,410 And it started out as a simple adventure story. Um, 165 00:09:56,710 --> 00:10:01,530 and I quickly realized that I needed to get up in the air to see this, 166 00:10:01,530 --> 00:10:05,970 this ribbon of life and how it, how far it goes, and its reach, 167 00:10:06,260 --> 00:10:10,730 uh, because it's so vast and also needed to get a different perspective because 168 00:10:10,730 --> 00:10:13,970 there's been so many images of the Colorado River on, on the shore, 169 00:10:14,180 --> 00:10:17,900 on the river itself. And so I actually used my father, 170 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:21,850 I hired him to help fly. And, um, 171 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,980 the more I dug into the story, and the more I followed my friend John, 172 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,060 the more I realized that this was a huge story that was being, 173 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,580 not many people were talking about it. Few people understood it, 174 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:33,540 myself included. 175 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:38,380 I didn't realize that this river was so intricate and so 176 00:10:38,380 --> 00:10:40,620 important. It was such a lifeline for the Southwest. 177 00:10:40,620 --> 00:10:44,820 It's now serves 40 million Americans. And, uh, 178 00:10:45,330 --> 00:10:48,100 I started realizing, I, I really need to focus on this. 179 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:52,460 This isn't just one magazine story. This could be a lot of, um, this could be a, 180 00:10:53,180 --> 00:10:57,840 a lot more. And, and inadvertently it's become, I think the river, 181 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,440 I guess on some hand called me because it's become, 182 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,550 in some ways kind of my life's work. And, uh, 183 00:11:03,550 --> 00:11:07,840 I continue to work on it and try to tell the story that I think we're just 184 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:12,240 starting to become more aware of on a, on a national scale, um, uh, 185 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:13,073 as we should. 186 00:11:13,290 --> 00:11:13,920 Uh, how, 187 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:18,480 how have you seen the rivers change in the Colorado River Basin in that last 188 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,120 10, 15 years that you've really turned your focus back home? 189 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,840 ? Have I seen him change? Well, um, 190 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,320 that would be an understatement. Um, 191 00:11:30,380 --> 00:11:32,000 the first change that, 192 00:11:32,030 --> 00:11:35,520 that I noticed and was alarmed at when I, 193 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,200 and really made me pivot in my work to focus more on this, 194 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:44,080 was when I came to the end of the Colorado River at the US Mexican 195 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:49,040 border, which historically was not the end of the river. The river, you know, 196 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,560 was believed to have flowed to the Gulf of California for 6 million years. 197 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:57,360 But I found the terminus just two miles into Mexico, some 90 miles, 198 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,920 a hundred miles shy. Uh, 199 00:11:59,920 --> 00:12:02,640 so it used to feed this Delta one, 200 00:12:02,710 --> 00:12:06,840 what was the largest desert estuary in North America. Um, 201 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,960 a place where we actually, um, in the early 19 hundreds, 202 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:13,520 they would take steam ships down the delta to go from, um, 203 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,840 Arizona to California before the railroad connected. 204 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,760 And when I did this early story and followed my friend John, we, 205 00:12:21,810 --> 00:12:25,080 we paddled little pack graphs down there in this sort of sliver of water, 206 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,280 and just two miles into Mexico, it dried up in this kind of frothy, 207 00:12:28,390 --> 00:12:33,320 what I call a frappuccino pit of Merck and muck and garbage and plastic 208 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,840 bottles. And then we walked, 209 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,240 literally walked with our boats on our back for roughly a hundred miles. 210 00:12:41,590 --> 00:12:45,780 Uh, that did not exist when I was born. Um, 211 00:12:45,780 --> 00:12:49,740 it was still an estuary maybe starting to break up and dry up. 212 00:12:49,740 --> 00:12:51,380 So just in my lifetime, 213 00:12:51,560 --> 00:12:56,100 the Colorado River has run dry now since that time. 214 00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:00,370 Uh, we've, through the effort of, of a few really, 215 00:13:00,370 --> 00:13:03,530 there's been some amazing restoration efforts. 216 00:13:03,530 --> 00:13:07,050 There's been some pulse flows that have reconnected the river to the sea 217 00:13:07,050 --> 00:13:08,330 briefly. Um, 218 00:13:08,330 --> 00:13:13,250 I actually paddled one of them in 2014 and became the last one of 219 00:13:13,250 --> 00:13:17,050 three people to paddle the river to the sea, which I don't really say proudly. 220 00:13:17,050 --> 00:13:20,530 I just sort of say like, wow, that's a crazy way to think about it, 221 00:13:20,940 --> 00:13:24,530 because I grew up with the concept of rivers flow to the sea. 222 00:13:24,530 --> 00:13:29,500 It's sort of how I learned about 'em. Um, but of course, many think otherwise. 223 00:13:29,530 --> 00:13:34,460 I think of rivers as plumbing systems and something that water flowing 224 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:39,100 into the sea or the ocean is wasteful. But, uh, it really isn't. It's, it, 225 00:13:39,330 --> 00:13:41,420 I I I create the analogy. 226 00:13:41,420 --> 00:13:46,060 It's like saying blood in your veins or arteries would be wasteful. Um, 227 00:13:46,060 --> 00:13:48,260 it's part of a system that connects. They're, 228 00:13:48,260 --> 00:13:52,100 they really are lifelines and they help support this intricate web of life that 229 00:13:52,100 --> 00:13:53,420 ultimately support us. 230 00:13:53,420 --> 00:13:57,330 And we often forget that we think we're removed from nature, 231 00:13:57,390 --> 00:14:01,800 but we're really part of it. And these river systems and watersheds, um, 232 00:14:02,270 --> 00:14:04,280 really sustain it on so many levels. 233 00:14:04,330 --> 00:14:09,040 So from the time that the river that ice witnessed it run dry until 234 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,720 today, it has population has swelled. 235 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,800 It was only 30 million Americans then now it's gone to 40 million Americans. So, 236 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,000 um, roughly a 30% increase. Um, 237 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,880 agriculture is still a big straw. Recreation is boomed, but the river, 238 00:14:25,130 --> 00:14:29,520 um, has diminished even more so, uh, because there are are more, 239 00:14:30,230 --> 00:14:34,820 there's more straws, there's more mouths to, to supply water to. 240 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,780 But there's also, um, a math problem. 241 00:14:38,780 --> 00:14:41,940 We think there was more water in the river than there really is. 242 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,220 And now we're pulling it out. And now climate, uh, 243 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:49,780 change is really exacerbating the system by making places that are hot and dry, 244 00:14:49,890 --> 00:14:54,400 hotter and drier already. And the weather patterns are unpredictable. 245 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,040 The rains and snows come and bursts and then run off quickly. 246 00:14:58,070 --> 00:15:02,940 It's harder for the soil and the water table to absorb it. Um, 247 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,340 and so now our reservoirs like the two largest in America, lake Mead and, 248 00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:13,190 and Lake Powell are now down to under 24% 249 00:15:13,190 --> 00:15:14,850 full. Um, 250 00:15:14,850 --> 00:15:18,530 they've been in the news people finding bodies in Lake Mead and so forth, 251 00:15:18,530 --> 00:15:23,240 but Lake Powell upstream of the Grand Canyon is, um, dangerously low, 252 00:15:24,060 --> 00:15:27,870 very complicated situation with a dam on the hydroelectric there where we're 253 00:15:28,220 --> 00:15:32,630 facing the possibility of not having enough water to run the turbines, 254 00:15:33,430 --> 00:15:38,210 um, on Glen Canyon Dam. And so these, um, 255 00:15:38,450 --> 00:15:43,250 these are huge changes, and those are compounded, those are almost those, 256 00:15:43,380 --> 00:15:43,730 um, 257 00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:47,730 deficits in the reservoirs are double of what they were when I first started the 258 00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:52,580 project. So it's really moving expon exponentially. And, uh, 259 00:15:52,580 --> 00:15:56,180 now it's, we're seeing these challenges, 260 00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:58,740 not just downstream and the reservoirs or at the delta, 261 00:15:58,740 --> 00:16:03,020 but all the way up at the snowpack. Snowpack has changed. We now get these snow, 262 00:16:03,020 --> 00:16:07,880 these dusty snowstorms from increased development to the west. Uh, 263 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:11,480 and that ex speeds up the melt off process. Um, 264 00:16:11,860 --> 00:16:16,240 and then also enabling plants to come to life and, 265 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:20,960 and drink, absorb water sooner. The transitive Eva operation system has, um, 266 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:25,680 has grown. So there's more, more thirst, really more, 267 00:16:26,370 --> 00:16:29,280 um, demand on the river even up here. 268 00:16:29,290 --> 00:16:34,190 So that's just kind of the tip of the iceberg on it. There's many more changes, 269 00:16:34,190 --> 00:16:37,070 but it is, it's amazing, um, 270 00:16:37,070 --> 00:16:39,230 how much is happening and how quickly it's happening. 271 00:16:39,980 --> 00:16:43,250 So I wanna come back to this, uh, 272 00:16:43,250 --> 00:16:48,170 concept of a really long walk because I understand you've had an up close and 273 00:16:48,370 --> 00:16:52,250 personal experience walking the length of Grand Canyon National Park for 274 00:16:52,250 --> 00:16:53,690 750 miles. 275 00:16:54,350 --> 00:16:57,850 And I can't fathom how you somehow managed to carry all your camera and 276 00:16:57,850 --> 00:17:02,770 videography gear, but I'm sure that's another story in itself. So I'm, 277 00:17:02,990 --> 00:17:07,210 I'm curious, you've also observed and recorded the river from the air, 278 00:17:07,210 --> 00:17:08,290 and I wanna, 279 00:17:08,290 --> 00:17:12,410 I'd love to hear you talk more about the insights you've gained about the river 280 00:17:12,410 --> 00:17:16,410 and the surrounding landscape from the air versus from the ground. 281 00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:23,380 It's a great question. Um, we'll start with the air. 282 00:17:24,070 --> 00:17:28,940 Um, so I started doing aerial imagery because my father is a pilot and, 283 00:17:28,940 --> 00:17:32,850 uh, he, uh, he was a fun guy to actually hire. 284 00:17:32,850 --> 00:17:36,530 I ended up hiring him, um, and paying his fuel costs and so forth. 285 00:17:37,150 --> 00:17:41,730 And so we became, we, we became good wing wingman, so to speak. 286 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:47,220 Um, and what I think is interesting about the aerial perspective is it gives you 287 00:17:48,100 --> 00:17:49,680 scale. It, 288 00:17:49,690 --> 00:17:54,480 it shows you how vast the land is and how small this ribbon of life is. The, 289 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:58,760 the Colorado River and, and all the many little arteries and veins, 290 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,690 the tributaries that supply it are. 291 00:18:02,070 --> 00:18:04,130 And it quickly, 292 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,380 I hel I think it helps give us humility 293 00:18:09,630 --> 00:18:13,340 on the landscape. And you realize just how, 294 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:19,100 how vast and arid, um, the American Southwest is, 295 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,060 how little this river is that's, that's being asked to do so much. 296 00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:29,140 Um, and then you quickly see all the diversions and the demands on it, um, 297 00:18:29,940 --> 00:18:30,773 in a, 298 00:18:31,550 --> 00:18:36,060 in a very sobering per scale and perspective. Um, 299 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:41,110 and for instance, most people in Denver, 300 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:42,593 um, 301 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,870 do not realize that 50% of their drinking water comes from the Colorado River. 302 00:18:47,940 --> 00:18:51,390 Coming all the way over the right, over the continental divide. Yeah. 303 00:18:51,540 --> 00:18:54,310 Yeah. Or underneath the continental divide. Yes, 304 00:18:54,310 --> 00:18:57,470 there's 22 turns basin diversion tunnels that, um, 305 00:18:57,740 --> 00:19:02,710 supply Denver and Boulder and Colorado Springs and Pueblo. Um, 306 00:19:02,740 --> 00:19:04,030 most people don't know that. 307 00:19:04,030 --> 00:19:07,510 And the interesting thing there is that's water that's leaving the Colorado 308 00:19:07,510 --> 00:19:11,750 River Basin and being brought over to the Mississippi Basin and, 309 00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:14,150 and not to return. So we're, we're, 310 00:19:14,310 --> 00:19:19,190 we're pulling a deficit of the system from the top. Um, 311 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,230 an aerial perspective kind of makes you realize that a little bit. It helps. Um, 312 00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:28,510 and then the same goes downstream. For instance, Phoenix, 313 00:19:28,830 --> 00:19:33,230 50% of their drinking water comes from a diversion canal called the Central 314 00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:37,910 Arizona Project, which goes 336 miles uphill, pumped uphill. 315 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,590 It shows our amazing ability to engineer and, and move water. Uh, 316 00:19:42,590 --> 00:19:44,630 it also goes to Tucson, um, 317 00:19:44,630 --> 00:19:47,150 and they don't realize that this is where their water comes from. 318 00:19:47,410 --> 00:19:52,280 And so I think it helps show us that our water does not come 319 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:57,190 from the tap. It comes from these very fragile ecosystems. Um, 320 00:19:57,290 --> 00:20:02,230 and that we have really engineered them into plumbing systems and, uh, 321 00:20:02,770 --> 00:20:05,070 and how quickly these landscapes can change. 322 00:20:05,070 --> 00:20:08,870 You can see where a little water will make a landscape green, and without it, 323 00:20:08,870 --> 00:20:13,870 it is incredibly dry. Um, so that's the aerial perspective. I, 324 00:20:14,010 --> 00:20:17,790 the last thing I'll say on that is I think it shows us where we have been as 325 00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:22,070 humans and where we have not, and our impact as human beings, 326 00:20:22,150 --> 00:20:26,670 which is, is good for us to, to realize how much impact we have on, 327 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,200 on this shared world. Um, now from the ground, yes, 328 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:35,640 I did spend, um, a year walking the entire length of the Grand Canyon, um, 329 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,240 from east to west inside the canyon. Uh, not on the rim, 330 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,640 not not following the river, um, on a boat. It was all on foot. 331 00:20:43,980 --> 00:20:48,790 You can't follow the river cuz it's too cliff in, in many sections. And that, 332 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,150 um, speaking of humility, 333 00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:54,870 I mean that's what the Grand Canyon does the best is it dishes out, humility. 334 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,770 Uh, and that made me realize a number of things. 335 00:20:59,770 --> 00:21:03,890 Just how wild and remarkable that landscape is, 336 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:09,410 uh, how fragile it is, um, how it is sculpted by that river. 337 00:21:09,580 --> 00:21:11,370 Uh, the basement of it, um, 338 00:21:11,370 --> 00:21:16,250 grand Canyon is 277 miles long of the Grand Canyon. 339 00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:20,130 We had to walk close to 800 miles cuz you had to go a around a lot of these 340 00:21:20,130 --> 00:21:24,970 cliffy tributaries. But it, it also, there's a saying that there's, 341 00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:27,970 the desert has just the right amount of water. 342 00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:30,530 And you see that in the Grand Canyon. These, 343 00:21:30,530 --> 00:21:35,410 these ecosystems live on very little and you see it somewhat 344 00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:39,330 of in a wild landscape right here in our backyard, really. Um, 345 00:21:39,790 --> 00:21:44,730 and oftentimes we're always trying to change these landscapes and 346 00:21:44,730 --> 00:21:48,970 green them or make the west more like the east. And, um, 347 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,650 I think that walk really made me realize how, 348 00:21:52,750 --> 00:21:56,690 how kind of amazing these ecosystems are as they are. 349 00:21:57,820 --> 00:22:01,650 Uh, it also made me realize how valuable water is of course, 350 00:22:01,650 --> 00:22:05,330 cuz I had to find it every day. I couldn't carry enough water. Um, and, 351 00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:07,210 and what you can actually live on, 352 00:22:07,390 --> 00:22:11,850 the average American family uses about 230 gallons per day. 353 00:22:12,340 --> 00:22:15,800 Now that's a household with, you know, washers and dryers, et cetera, 354 00:22:16,650 --> 00:22:19,430 but how much water do you as an individual need? 355 00:22:19,570 --> 00:22:22,510 And we often don't think about that. But in the Grand Canyon, 356 00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:25,630 I had to face that daily as I had to find it. 357 00:22:25,630 --> 00:22:30,110 And we were living off about six liters. Yeah. Um, that doesn't include showers. 358 00:22:30,120 --> 00:22:34,150 So, you know, we didn't smell great, but , um, that's part of the deal. 359 00:22:34,510 --> 00:22:35,320 . 360 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,550 Uh, you know, I I you you mentioned turning on the Central Arizona project in, 361 00:22:39,550 --> 00:22:44,110 in Phoenix and Tucson having lived in Tucson when they turned that on, 362 00:22:44,790 --> 00:22:48,150 everyone living there at the time was very aware of it because the water 363 00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:52,910 suddenly tasted terrible going from groundwater to the pumped in 364 00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:57,830 Colorado River. And you had this moment where there was, I think, 365 00:22:57,830 --> 00:23:01,670 universal awareness in, in the city of Tucson that wow, 366 00:23:01,670 --> 00:23:06,590 something really changed with our, our water. And eventually they, 367 00:23:06,590 --> 00:23:11,510 they flipped it off and went to recharge and have now brought back 368 00:23:11,510 --> 00:23:13,950 the Santa Cruz river, which was dry. 369 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,190 Nothing in it growing up was a dry wash. And now thanks to Recharge, 370 00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:24,110 we've basically transplanted the Colorado River into the Santa Cruz 371 00:23:24,110 --> 00:23:26,870 River, created a new riparian area in Tucson, 372 00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:31,710 which is beautiful when you're downtown. But you are still aware, 373 00:23:31,710 --> 00:23:32,630 well we're, 374 00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:36,630 we're Rob and Peter to pay Paul here because that is now not water that is 375 00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:41,470 flowing back down to Mexico, Yuma anywhere along the way. 376 00:23:42,010 --> 00:23:42,990 And I, I don't, 377 00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:47,710 I don't know that folks in Tucson are necessarily appreciative of that anymore. 378 00:23:48,340 --> 00:23:51,510 I guess that that's not, that's neither here nor there. But in terms of, 379 00:23:51,980 --> 00:23:54,190 I guess, diverting water in these, the, 380 00:23:54,190 --> 00:23:56,990 the lowering levels that you are mentioning, 381 00:23:56,990 --> 00:24:01,910 lake Mead and Lake Powell both getting precariously low in 382 00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:05,030 addition to the bodies that are turning up at Lake Mead. 383 00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:07,630 Lake Powell is revealing a, 384 00:24:08,580 --> 00:24:13,030 a whole lot of archeology and human history where from cliff 385 00:24:13,030 --> 00:24:17,350 dwellings to, uh, to, to cliff art, 386 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,710 uh, that has been buried now for several decades. 387 00:24:22,820 --> 00:24:26,910 Have you gotten the chance, first of all to go and see any of that and, 388 00:24:27,570 --> 00:24:31,070 and what would you go and look for as a photographer, uh, 389 00:24:31,070 --> 00:24:35,110 if you had had that opportunity to watch Lake Powell reveal secrets that have 390 00:24:35,110 --> 00:24:36,350 been underwater for several decades? 391 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,010 Yeah, it's Lake Powell's amazing, uh, on many fronts. Um, 392 00:24:42,580 --> 00:24:46,370 quickly back to the Santa Cruz. Yeah, I think that is remarkable cuz it, 393 00:24:46,370 --> 00:24:49,450 that is another example of how we, we, we, 394 00:24:50,220 --> 00:24:53,490 we play mastermind with these ecosystems that we're working, 395 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:57,970 that are so efficient in so many ways. Um, and then we, 396 00:24:57,970 --> 00:25:01,570 we tweak 'em and then don't realize the unintended consequences. 397 00:25:01,570 --> 00:25:06,410 And we seem to be in a re re repetitious cycle on that one. But with, 398 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:11,290 with Lake Powell, which is another sort of cycle of sorts, 399 00:25:12,140 --> 00:25:16,680 um, you know, John Wellsley Powell went down there in 1869 and, you know, 400 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,320 he described it as like the Lord's work and the greatest work these, 401 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,760 these Glens and alcoves. 402 00:25:22,620 --> 00:25:25,880 And then we've turned it into what is, 403 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,040 I believe the second largest reservoir in the United States has more shoreline 404 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,490 than the coast of California, or it did. Um, truly amazing. 405 00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:36,290 And I grew up going there. Uh, 406 00:25:36,290 --> 00:25:39,530 I learned a water ski there and I did what many of us do in Colorado. 407 00:25:39,530 --> 00:25:43,530 We'd go there to have a family trip or something. And you cliff jump. Well, 408 00:25:43,530 --> 00:25:44,363 today, 409 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,770 I mentioned earlier it's down to about 23 and a half percent full. 410 00:25:49,180 --> 00:25:52,690 So 75% of what that lake is is gone. 411 00:25:52,690 --> 00:25:55,570 And it's left these huge bathtub rings that are, you know, 412 00:25:55,570 --> 00:26:00,090 in some cases over 200 feet high, kind of this white, um, 413 00:26:00,090 --> 00:26:03,250 tarnished look on this, this orange sandstone. 414 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:07,900 And so many people are saying it's really sad and it, 415 00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:12,100 on many levels it is, it's economies a vanished. The, the, um, 416 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,340 the boat ramps are now miles from the shore. You, they've been closed. Um, 417 00:26:18,660 --> 00:26:20,480 yet there's another silver lining. 418 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:24,800 And I just hit a stories for Smithsonian where I went down and explored, um, 419 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,580 these side canyons and slots that have been underwater my 420 00:26:29,580 --> 00:26:34,010 entire life. And I walked up them and I, 421 00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:36,490 yes, I found moki steps, 422 00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:41,330 which are the ancient puebloan kind of hand carved ladders. I found, um, 423 00:26:41,610 --> 00:26:46,000 pictographs and artwork, um, places that I couldn't get to, 424 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,480 but I could see old dwellings that are still there. Um, 425 00:26:50,610 --> 00:26:55,600 my father actually walked up a slot side canyon of Escal in 426 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,760 the late sixties before it had fully flooded. 427 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,960 And he showed me these old super eight videos of him walking through these 428 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,600 amazing cottonwood groves. 429 00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:08,680 And I tried to go up the same one to see where he went. And to my amazement, 430 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,440 we found it and the cottonwood groves are still there. Wow. 431 00:27:13,670 --> 00:27:18,120 They are, they're, they're dead and blackened, but the trees never fell. 432 00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:23,200 And they are reappeared and the silk at the base is starting to slowly 433 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,080 erode back away with some of the monsoon rains. 434 00:27:26,780 --> 00:27:31,200 And then when you walk further up into it, where the, the bathtub ring, 435 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,920 as we call it, those white stains are starting to wash away. 436 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,160 You find places like cathedral and desert, 437 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,880 which is one of the most amazing overhanging 438 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:45,330 glen alcove landscapes I've ever been to. Um, 439 00:27:45,330 --> 00:27:49,450 there's another one I went up in Willow Canyon that had an alcove that is larger 440 00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:50,463 and more 441 00:27:51,930 --> 00:27:56,500 kind of spiritual and remarkable than any overhanging 442 00:27:57,780 --> 00:28:01,100 alcove canyon I've seen in Grand Canyon. Hmm. Um, 443 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,900 and further up we were seeing evidence of wildlife, bobcat, coyote, 444 00:28:06,390 --> 00:28:10,420 um, a lot of bird life. Some trees are returning, uh, 445 00:28:10,420 --> 00:28:15,100 found a freshwater orchid. I didn't know that existed. Um, 446 00:28:15,100 --> 00:28:19,220 but it is starting to grow back. And so as my friend, um, 447 00:28:19,450 --> 00:28:23,340 I went there with two friends. Uh, one works with the Glen Canyon Institute, um, 448 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,420 and, and another one lives down in Tucson, actually. Uh, his name is Len. 449 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,940 And he had this great liner, he said at the end he said, well, 450 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,410 nature your bats last. 451 00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:36,770 . Yes, indeed. 452 00:28:36,910 --> 00:28:38,410 And, uh, yes it does. 453 00:28:38,410 --> 00:28:43,290 And we saw it batting last there and kind of bringing back it's 454 00:28:43,290 --> 00:28:44,570 old glory. Uh, 455 00:28:45,330 --> 00:28:49,510 and it really was truly remarkable to see, yes, 456 00:28:49,510 --> 00:28:53,630 we're losing a lake. Yes. The challenges of water and our, you know, 457 00:28:54,290 --> 00:28:59,110 infrastructure that we came accustomed to around it is changing rapidly faster 458 00:28:59,110 --> 00:29:00,910 than maybe we were prepared for. 459 00:29:01,690 --> 00:29:05,510 But on many levels we are gaining a a, 460 00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:09,390 it's not a national park, but it easily could be. Mm-hmm. , um, 461 00:29:09,390 --> 00:29:14,110 lake Powell is leaving us, but Glen Canyon is returning in all, 462 00:29:14,110 --> 00:29:15,910 its many of its glories. 463 00:29:16,060 --> 00:29:20,590 That's, uh, it's Lin Nesser, I presume, who, who we talked to, uh, on our, 464 00:29:20,590 --> 00:29:22,270 our podcast and we were in Tucson. He, 465 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,230 he might have even said Nature Bats last in in that episode . So yes. 466 00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:30,670 I I it would've been a remarkable experience doing, 467 00:29:30,670 --> 00:29:34,150 doing that exploration with Len there by your side . 468 00:29:34,980 --> 00:29:37,870 Yeah, we had, we had a lot of laughs and, uh, you know, 469 00:29:37,870 --> 00:29:42,480 some moments of struggle too working through quicksand and silt. Wow. But, uh, 470 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,920 yeah, he's, he is a great perspective on it too. And, um, 471 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,780 his, he has, um, he's half Navajo, so he has a, 472 00:29:50,780 --> 00:29:54,940 a native perspective that I think is critical. And, um, 473 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,290 especially today because my experience in the Grand Canyon is, 474 00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:04,850 is, um, we often think of that place as empty, but it is, um, 475 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,890 it's full of not just a wide range of biodiversity, 476 00:30:07,890 --> 00:30:10,890 but it is full of Native American history, 477 00:30:10,890 --> 00:30:13,690 but ongoing cultural life. 478 00:30:13,690 --> 00:30:16,810 There are a lot of Native American tribes that live around Grand Canyon and 479 00:30:17,170 --> 00:30:21,290 we're starting to bring their voice back to the table as we should, 480 00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:23,770 not just for their perspective and wisdom, 481 00:30:23,770 --> 00:30:28,640 but also because they have rights to up to 20% of the 482 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,160 Colorado River. Um, 483 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,020 now all these rights on the river may change to a percentage cuz we're forced 484 00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:39,340 to, but it's, um, they still exist and they're still documented. So it's, 485 00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:44,020 um, I think it's, um, perspectives like line have are, are, 486 00:30:44,020 --> 00:30:45,020 are critical today. 487 00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:51,180 So, Pete, thinking of documentation and storytelling, 488 00:30:51,210 --> 00:30:56,090 both of those things are inherent in all of your 489 00:30:56,090 --> 00:31:00,010 work, but I'm curious, do you consider yourself a conservationist? 490 00:31:00,590 --> 00:31:01,890 And if so, 491 00:31:02,410 --> 00:31:07,330 maybe share with us how and when you began to identify as 492 00:31:07,330 --> 00:31:08,163 such. 493 00:31:08,380 --> 00:31:13,130 Um, so my, I consider myself, um, first and foremost, 494 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,610 I guess a human being. , um, you know, 495 00:31:18,670 --> 00:31:21,810 one of my fellow humans is in trouble and I'm photographing, 496 00:31:21,810 --> 00:31:26,550 I'll put the camera down. Um, but, uh, I, um, 497 00:31:26,550 --> 00:31:31,480 I've been a photographer, moved into filmmaking. I've been a writer and I, 498 00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:36,010 I think I've always been somewhat of a conservationist, 499 00:31:36,740 --> 00:31:41,370 um, just because I believe, um, we're just stewards of the land. 500 00:31:41,370 --> 00:31:44,770 We're lucky to be connected to it and we're just moving through it. It's, 501 00:31:44,770 --> 00:31:49,570 even the ownership game is interesting. Um, and I, you know, 502 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,530 native culture has a lot of thoughts on that, 503 00:31:52,590 --> 00:31:56,810 but I think we have a lot to learn from our natural systems. Um, and we are, 504 00:31:56,970 --> 00:32:00,810 we're not the smartest on the system. I'd say often we're the dumbest. 505 00:32:01,230 --> 00:32:05,160 But, um, as a conservationist, yes, I, 506 00:32:06,540 --> 00:32:09,130 uh, many people try to label me as an activist in this, 507 00:32:09,130 --> 00:32:14,130 but ultimately I try to just tell stories and be as objective as I 508 00:32:14,130 --> 00:32:18,930 possibly can with the, with a camera and I let the camera do the work. Um, 509 00:32:19,390 --> 00:32:24,170 cuz in today's divided divisive political world where climate change 510 00:32:24,370 --> 00:32:29,090 is even politicized, I try to show people more than tell, um, 511 00:32:29,090 --> 00:32:31,810 with my imagery. And if you show, you know, 512 00:32:31,810 --> 00:32:34,770 images of a river that they've never, 513 00:32:34,770 --> 00:32:39,400 never been to like the Colorado or, or maybe they have, if you show 'em them, 514 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:40,760 it running dry and you, 515 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,560 you show them that they're all their winter salad bowl comes 516 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:50,360 from this water source, um, it may change their perspective a little bit. 517 00:32:50,770 --> 00:32:54,800 Um, so that's why I try to think about it. Um, and I, 518 00:32:55,810 --> 00:32:58,860 I often do talks and presentations with my, 519 00:32:59,030 --> 00:33:02,700 my work to people with very different perspectives on, 520 00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:04,580 on nature and climate, but I, 521 00:33:04,610 --> 00:33:08,540 I think sometimes I can find a common ground through, um, 522 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:13,450 through the imagery, um, through the place. And, um, so I, 523 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,630 I find that can be sometimes more effective than throwing a bunch of facts and 524 00:33:19,050 --> 00:33:20,870 you should, or you oughts at them. 525 00:33:21,860 --> 00:33:26,590 I think that kind of brings up how your work as compared 526 00:33:26,590 --> 00:33:30,550 to say a traditional landscape photographer that is just out there to capture 527 00:33:30,550 --> 00:33:35,230 the most beautiful shot of horseshoe band or or wherever they are, 528 00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:39,350 your work very much has a more journalistic or, 529 00:33:39,510 --> 00:33:43,550 or documentary feel to it. I think when I, I look at your, 530 00:33:43,620 --> 00:33:48,470 your images and the other thing that I I'm very aware of looking at your work 531 00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:52,870 is that you are not just photographing the landscape, but you are, 532 00:33:52,870 --> 00:33:57,870 you are taking photos of the human impact on the landscape, including a, 533 00:33:57,870 --> 00:34:02,270 a rather remarkable shot, uh, a a time lapse, if you will, of all the, 534 00:34:02,270 --> 00:34:06,710 the boats and helicopters floating over the Grand Canyon. 535 00:34:07,890 --> 00:34:12,750 How, how do you approach your work that way when you're thinking about, 536 00:34:12,750 --> 00:34:15,270 am I photographing a place? Am I photographing people? 537 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:17,590 Am I photographing them together? 538 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:25,270 Uh, another great question. I oftentimes, I'm just trying to find, um, 539 00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:30,070 beauty. Um, I think we, we we love, 540 00:34:30,070 --> 00:34:32,670 you know, looking at beautiful things. Um, 541 00:34:32,670 --> 00:34:37,070 the world is of course saturated in imagery these days with all our social media 542 00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:37,903 outlets. 543 00:34:38,090 --> 00:34:41,870 And so I'm trying to find something that's both beautiful and captivating. 544 00:34:41,870 --> 00:34:46,230 But I, I believe in story too. And I think story is often, um, 545 00:34:46,650 --> 00:34:49,710 underestimated the power of it. So, uh, 546 00:34:49,710 --> 00:34:54,030 the image you're referencing in the Grand Canyon, the story behind that is, 547 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:55,340 um, 548 00:34:55,340 --> 00:34:59,710 I spent a day out there because there's a big air tour industry in Western Grand 549 00:34:59,710 --> 00:35:03,030 Canyon that's kind of exploded in the last decade plus. 550 00:35:03,530 --> 00:35:07,870 And I have nothing against aviation or helicopters. Um, I understand the, 551 00:35:07,870 --> 00:35:11,550 the need and the desire, but I wanted to show how, 552 00:35:12,780 --> 00:35:15,990 what impact looks like in just a 12 hour period. 553 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,070 So I spent all day out there and photographed every time a helicopter or boat 554 00:35:20,070 --> 00:35:22,790 passed my lens, I would capture it. And then I, 555 00:35:22,980 --> 00:35:27,750 I merged them together in one image. Um, and it was alarming on many fronts. 556 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,870 Um, some people didn't like it, but I think it, 557 00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:35,230 it was a reality that we often ignore. We think we, 558 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,200 um, do the things that we love and like, and we have access to in this world, 559 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,760 in this, you know, first world. 560 00:35:42,380 --> 00:35:46,680 And we don't think it has as much impact as maybe it does. Um, 561 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,480 and when you look at it in a collective lens of what is a day of traffic in the 562 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,480 Grand Canyon, when there's I photograph 363 helicopter flights, 563 00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:59,360 dang. Um, and then the little boats that go through, 564 00:36:00,060 --> 00:36:03,520 you start to realize that that is a soundscape that has completely changed 565 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,040 mm-hmm. , um, it's noisy from sunrise to sunset. Um, 566 00:36:07,620 --> 00:36:11,480 and that is maybe a different wilderness national park experience than we 567 00:36:12,620 --> 00:36:16,120 set out to originally have, uh, 568 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,520 originally was intended to be a national park wilderness experience. Um, 569 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,340 it becomes more of an amusement experience. Mm-hmm. . Um, 570 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,860 and so back to the question, I, 571 00:36:26,970 --> 00:36:31,140 I think I'm just trying to figure out ways to do that. And, um, 572 00:36:31,410 --> 00:36:34,820 I was very, very, um, mathematical. 573 00:36:34,930 --> 00:36:38,540 I was very honest about how I did it. I had three people with me measuring, 574 00:36:38,540 --> 00:36:41,020 you know, double counting the helicopters mm-hmm. 575 00:36:41,060 --> 00:36:44,910 so people weren't accusing us of, of making it up. Um, 576 00:36:44,910 --> 00:36:49,670 I drew maps of where each one flew and everyone's on a raw file so that they 577 00:36:49,670 --> 00:36:54,550 could easily be seen and timestamped, et cetera, . So, um, so yes, 578 00:36:54,550 --> 00:36:58,390 part of me is trying to show impact and I've done that in other places as well. 579 00:36:58,390 --> 00:37:01,110 I've done it in Colorado here, or day of traffic in, you know, 580 00:37:01,110 --> 00:37:03,710 the Aspen Airport after a sustainability conference. 581 00:37:03,810 --> 00:37:05,750 You see a lot of private jets taking off. 582 00:37:05,810 --> 00:37:06,643 Yes. 583 00:37:07,870 --> 00:37:12,750 . So , um, I'm just trying to find ways to, you know, 584 00:37:12,750 --> 00:37:14,710 get people's attention and, you know, 585 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,950 walking through the Grand Canyon and then in some ways there was really a way 586 00:37:18,950 --> 00:37:22,630 just to highlight the magnificence of that place and how it's potentially 587 00:37:22,950 --> 00:37:27,550 changing and how we're loving it to death like so many other places. Um, 588 00:37:27,770 --> 00:37:30,510 but the adventure part walking through was just sort of a, 589 00:37:30,510 --> 00:37:34,190 that was the backbone, that was just sort of the hook to try to bring, um, 590 00:37:34,190 --> 00:37:37,110 some eyeballs to things that we need to pay attention to. 591 00:37:38,060 --> 00:37:42,750 I really wanna ask you a little bit more about the pulse flow in 592 00:37:42,750 --> 00:37:46,150 2014 when federal water managers, uh, 593 00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:50,470 let additional water flow downstream in the Colorado River 594 00:37:50,710 --> 00:37:55,630 Delta so that the river once again flowed all the way to the sea and as 595 00:37:55,630 --> 00:37:59,910 it hadn't done in decades. And the reason I wanna ask you about this is, 596 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,430 uh, a lot of the imagery that we see right now and the reality that we can read 597 00:38:05,430 --> 00:38:06,870 about is so dire. 598 00:38:07,290 --> 00:38:11,870 And one of the things that it seems that that experiment did is showed people 599 00:38:12,500 --> 00:38:17,270 what could be different or what had been possible in the past. 600 00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:22,150 So I'm curious if you could talk more about what it was like watching people 601 00:38:22,150 --> 00:38:27,070 react to a flowing river where there had previously been a dry wash 602 00:38:27,070 --> 00:38:30,430 and, and maybe some of the changes that you observed in the ecosystem. 603 00:38:31,070 --> 00:38:34,520 Yeah, that was one of the most re remarkable things I've ever seen. 604 00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:40,170 Uh, and so just to back up, I had walked, um, 605 00:38:40,270 --> 00:38:43,890 the Colorado River Delta. This is a delta to remind you that, you know, 606 00:38:44,170 --> 00:38:48,410 Aldo Leopold, the great conservationist, had took a canoe across in 1922. 607 00:38:48,410 --> 00:38:53,410 And he described flocks of birds so thick that it made 608 00:38:53,690 --> 00:38:58,330 the sky black. Um, he described the river as nowhere and everywhere, 609 00:38:59,260 --> 00:39:03,730 uh, cottonwood, forest, jaguars, et cetera. So when I went through in, 610 00:39:03,780 --> 00:39:08,490 in late, uh, around, I guess it was around 2008, and I walked it, 611 00:39:08,490 --> 00:39:12,090 it was just a cracker delta, I was like, oh my goodness, this is alarming. 612 00:39:13,070 --> 00:39:16,000 I didn't actually ever think that I would see change there. 613 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,160 It just seemed like it was too impossible. 614 00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:22,810 But thanks to the dedication and commitment of, of, again, 615 00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,410 really just a few people, um, at the end of the day they, in 2014, 616 00:39:27,410 --> 00:39:31,210 they did their big first big pulse flow was less than 1% of the Colorado River. 617 00:39:31,740 --> 00:39:32,090 Um, 618 00:39:32,090 --> 00:39:36,770 they opened up the gates to the more dam and they kind of let this titanic surge 619 00:39:36,770 --> 00:39:38,730 of water blast out down through there. 620 00:39:39,950 --> 00:39:43,650 The first thing that was amazing was to see the gates open. 621 00:39:43,710 --> 00:39:48,250 The second was just downstream, not too far. Um, 622 00:39:48,380 --> 00:39:53,370 in Rio, Colorado, um, this little hamlet that's over the border, um, 623 00:39:53,860 --> 00:39:55,290 it was a total fiesta. 624 00:39:55,490 --> 00:40:00,210 People were singing and dancing and dancing horses and having tacos and, 625 00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:02,650 and ranchero music on the banks. 626 00:40:03,310 --> 00:40:07,570 And people say, well, I've heard people say, 627 00:40:07,570 --> 00:40:10,290 who cares if the river runs dry? We're putting it to good use. 628 00:40:10,290 --> 00:40:11,610 We've engineered it. I, 629 00:40:11,610 --> 00:40:14,690 I can guarantee you those people that live across the border, 630 00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:17,810 or not just right on the border, but further south, 631 00:40:17,810 --> 00:40:20,210 the cocoa native travel community, 632 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,850 that that was their ancestral fishing grounds. They were thrilled. 633 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,450 They love the river as much as the rest of us. Um, 634 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,700 for all the things that we love rivers for, just looking at 'em, walking in it, 635 00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:33,740 you know, the old saying, 636 00:40:33,740 --> 00:40:38,260 you never walk in the same river twice cuz it's just constantly changing. 637 00:40:39,110 --> 00:40:43,820 So there was this human element that took me by great surprise, 638 00:40:44,370 --> 00:40:47,900 it's obvious in hindsight, but at the moment I was like, oh my goodness, 639 00:40:49,580 --> 00:40:53,750 this community misses the river. You as much as anybody, you know, 640 00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:56,990 you drive past the dry river bed, you sort of forget there was a river there, 641 00:40:56,990 --> 00:40:58,350 but they had not forgotten. 642 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,150 So that was amazing on so many fronts and so 643 00:41:03,150 --> 00:41:07,510 delightful and so hopeful. The second one was that, um, 644 00:41:07,660 --> 00:41:10,350 that the ecological memory down there was 645 00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:13,100 truly remarkable. 646 00:41:13,380 --> 00:41:18,340 There were crustacean that had been sitting in the dry sand banks 647 00:41:18,670 --> 00:41:23,320 of the, the, the river for decades with no water. 648 00:41:23,460 --> 00:41:26,040 And the minute this little pulse full of water hit, 649 00:41:26,310 --> 00:41:30,160 they came to life and you could scoop up sand and see them swimming in your 650 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:30,400 hand. 651 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,280 And so the scientists and the hydrologists and the biologist were going bonkers. 652 00:41:34,630 --> 00:41:36,120 I was like, this is incredible. 653 00:41:37,140 --> 00:41:41,360 And then the last thing I'll bring up is that when I walked it, um, 654 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,640 there was a really empty soundscape. 655 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,360 It was a silence that was void of life, um, 656 00:41:49,060 --> 00:41:50,440 not natural sounding. 657 00:41:50,740 --> 00:41:55,600 And then we took paddle boards down through the pulse flow and 658 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,880 basically lived on the river. And, you know, it was not easy. 659 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,360 We had to kind of bush whack our way through, 660 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:05,240 but the soundscape totally came back to life and there was birds 661 00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:09,640 and fish and insects. First, the mosquitoes were pissed and hungry . 662 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:14,160 But it, it was awesome. And, uh, 663 00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:17,040 you know, back to the nature bats last, uh, 664 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,360 it was kind of nature stepping up to bat there and showing what it could do if 665 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,320 we give it a chance. And that was, yeah, very hopeful. 666 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,880 And they've since done another poles flow, not as large. 667 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:28,960 It didn't connect the river entirely. 668 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:33,360 They used irrigation canals and had to skip a very dry patch where the, 669 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:35,280 the water table is very depleted. 670 00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:38,930 But they did connect the river back to the sea again, very briefly. 671 00:42:38,930 --> 00:42:42,610 Nobody was able to paddle it to my understanding. But, um, 672 00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:47,910 there is pockets of hope down there and a lot of that hope comes 673 00:42:47,910 --> 00:42:52,670 from people that care. And it comes from the public and the voices, um, 674 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,790 of people saying, Hey, I I I do care and I, I want to see this change. 675 00:42:57,890 --> 00:43:02,390 And, and so there is, there is some hope in what often seems like a very, 676 00:43:02,530 --> 00:43:04,230 you know, dire situation. 677 00:43:05,350 --> 00:43:06,750 We're running tight on time. 678 00:43:06,860 --> 00:43:10,710 I could fill a whole separate episode with just technical questions about your 679 00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:12,350 work as a photographer. But instead, 680 00:43:12,350 --> 00:43:17,150 I want to ask a question about your creative process because the Grand Canyon 681 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,990 is obviously one of the most photographed places in America, if not the world. 682 00:43:22,650 --> 00:43:27,070 How do you approach a subject like that or a Yellowstone or a 683 00:43:27,070 --> 00:43:31,910 Yosemite and look for something new to bring to it as a, 684 00:43:31,910 --> 00:43:33,110 as a creative professional? 685 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,750 Uh, I dunno, , 686 00:43:39,650 --> 00:43:42,230 I'm always trying to figure out something. Um, 687 00:43:43,020 --> 00:43:47,220 there are many younger, um, more technically savvy, 688 00:43:48,090 --> 00:43:52,740 I'll even say better photographers out there in the world. Um, filmmakers. Um, 689 00:43:52,740 --> 00:43:56,700 I just try to come with a different unique perspective that I think is not being 690 00:43:56,700 --> 00:44:01,460 looked at. Um, the Grand Canyon was, you know, hiking at, uh, 691 00:44:01,460 --> 00:44:02,260 without a trail. 692 00:44:02,260 --> 00:44:05,220 There was more people that stood on the moon than have had done that. 693 00:44:05,220 --> 00:44:07,700 So that was kind of a unique angle and to look at the, 694 00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:12,340 the challenges in a place we think is protected but maybe isn't as protected as 695 00:44:12,340 --> 00:44:15,700 as we realize or hope. Um, 696 00:44:16,190 --> 00:44:19,180 my last project was on silence, um, 697 00:44:19,300 --> 00:44:24,050 something that we often probably forget or don't think 698 00:44:24,050 --> 00:44:27,330 about, but the natural soundscape, which is not void of sound, 699 00:44:27,330 --> 00:44:30,930 but of really rich with, with natural sounds. How we in our, 700 00:44:30,980 --> 00:44:32,580 our mechanized world have changed that. 701 00:44:32,580 --> 00:44:35,540 So that was a fun kind of spin on conservation, 702 00:44:35,540 --> 00:44:39,590 maybe I call it the backdoor of conservation. And, um, 703 00:44:40,610 --> 00:44:44,710 and now I'm just trying to, um, do a project again on the Colorado River. 704 00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:46,030 I'm going out to do another book, 705 00:44:46,030 --> 00:44:49,230 but I'm trying to do a short film with using kind of the, 706 00:44:49,890 --> 00:44:54,550 the generational growth that I've had with my father as he 707 00:44:54,550 --> 00:44:59,190 ages and, and looking at kind of passing these, you know, 708 00:44:59,620 --> 00:45:04,540 this natural world onto the next generation and how he helped me look 709 00:45:04,540 --> 00:45:08,550 at it differently. And, and so I guess that's how I'm, 710 00:45:08,550 --> 00:45:11,430 I'm always trying to just find a little different angle, um, 711 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,870 because like I said, , there are many more talented, uh, 712 00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:19,250 shooters out there than I am. So I have to think of story first and foremost. 713 00:45:20,460 --> 00:45:21,890 So following up on that, 714 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:27,860 I'd love to hear what's left on your to-do list for places you want to, 715 00:45:27,860 --> 00:45:29,700 to film and photograph. 716 00:45:32,740 --> 00:45:37,690 Uh, what's left? Well, the, the list is long still. Um, I, 717 00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:42,130 I, I joke my, I have, my body has high mileage, so there's some , 718 00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:44,170 some, some sore spots. 719 00:45:44,170 --> 00:45:47,130 That's like Indiana Jones, right? It's the mileage. 720 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:47,850 Like that. 721 00:45:47,850 --> 00:45:48,890 Cut the ears. . 722 00:45:49,530 --> 00:45:54,250 not nearly as cool. But, um, uh, 723 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,130 I will continue working on the Colorado River. Like I said, I'm, 724 00:45:58,130 --> 00:46:02,410 I'm gonna work on another book and I'm working on some more film work with kind 725 00:46:02,410 --> 00:46:06,370 of the, the decade plus work I've been doing with my father. Um, 726 00:46:06,370 --> 00:46:10,250 I'll work on other tributaries and, um, um, 727 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,350 I think just trying to make more people, 728 00:46:14,350 --> 00:46:18,270 more the next generation more engaged and, um, 729 00:46:18,270 --> 00:46:19,550 realize that there's a big wide, 730 00:46:19,550 --> 00:46:23,430 wonderful world out there that we all share and is fragile and needs our 731 00:46:23,430 --> 00:46:25,550 protection. And, um, 732 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,190 it ultimately is more interesting and engaging than the screens of our phone. 733 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,710 Um, if I can do that, that, you know, 734 00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:37,190 that would be a big goal and I'll continue to do that. And, but, you know, 735 00:46:37,190 --> 00:46:39,590 we all, we all need to do what we can do. 736 00:46:40,860 --> 00:46:45,430 That's where we'll leave it. Photographer, filmmaker, journalist, speaker, 737 00:46:46,820 --> 00:46:50,140 whatever el other hats you wanna wear today. Pete McBride, thank you so much. 738 00:46:50,140 --> 00:46:51,740 It's, it's been a real pleasure having you on the podcast. 739 00:46:51,940 --> 00:46:54,740 Thank you all. Thank you guys. It was, appreciate it. 740 00:46:59,150 --> 00:47:00,530 For our good news this week. 741 00:47:00,530 --> 00:47:04,010 Let's talk about the Interior Department's announcement that it's kicking off a 742 00:47:04,010 --> 00:47:05,490 West Wide Solar review. 743 00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:09,730 The review will involve updating a 2012 plan that guides solar energy 744 00:47:09,730 --> 00:47:11,090 development on public lands. 745 00:47:11,190 --> 00:47:15,490 The update will help identify new areas suitable for solar in which the BLM can 746 00:47:15,490 --> 00:47:19,330 expedite permitting while avoiding land use and habitat conflicts. 747 00:47:19,510 --> 00:47:23,690 The b l m is also initiating reviews of three proposed solar projects in Arizona 748 00:47:23,720 --> 00:47:26,890 that could add one gigawatt of clean energy to the grid. 749 00:47:27,350 --> 00:47:29,560 And do you know who's in the driver's seat for all of that? 750 00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:31,280 Laura Daniel Davis. 751 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,360 . We call that a callback in the bench. Yes. 752 00:47:43,500 --> 00:47:45,680 All right. That is it for today, folks. 753 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:50,040 You can find links to Pete McBride's work in the show notes as well as a link to 754 00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,520 that episode on permitting reform that we talked about. And as always, 755 00:47:53,550 --> 00:47:57,480 send your feedback podcast@westernpriorities.org. 756 00:47:58,070 --> 00:48:00,600 Thanks again to Pete for sharing his stories with us. 757 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,840 And thank you for listening to the landscape.