1 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:09,859 Welcome to The Landscape, your show about America's 2 00:00:09,919 --> 00:00:12,160 parks and public lands for as long as 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,144 we have them. I'm your host, Erin Weiss, 4 00:00:14,144 --> 00:00:16,564 with the Center for Western Priorities in Denver. 5 00:00:16,945 --> 00:00:19,524 And I'm Kate Gretzinger in Salt Lake City. 6 00:00:19,904 --> 00:00:22,324 Today on the podcast, we're talking to indigenous 7 00:00:22,544 --> 00:00:24,804 activist and scholar, Len Nesseffer, 8 00:00:25,344 --> 00:00:27,904 about a new feature length documentary he worked 9 00:00:27,904 --> 00:00:30,859 on. The film is called the American Southwest, 10 00:00:31,239 --> 00:00:32,940 and it highlights the rich ecological 11 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,820 and cultural value of the Colorado River. 12 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,700 It's also the first blue chip nature documentary 13 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,100 to be narrated by an indigenous person. 14 00:00:41,675 --> 00:00:43,115 It's a great film, and I can't wait 15 00:00:43,115 --> 00:00:45,515 to share our conversation with you. But first, 16 00:00:45,515 --> 00:00:46,175 the news. 17 00:00:47,034 --> 00:00:49,914 Well, the White House this morning released its 18 00:00:49,914 --> 00:00:53,354 wish list for the fiscal year twenty twenty 19 00:00:53,354 --> 00:00:54,255 six budget. 20 00:00:54,789 --> 00:00:57,109 As far as public lands go, it is 21 00:00:57,109 --> 00:00:57,609 a 22 00:00:58,870 --> 00:01:01,030 dream, I guess you could say, of this 23 00:01:01,030 --> 00:01:01,530 administration 24 00:01:01,829 --> 00:01:03,130 as they've been projecting 25 00:01:03,750 --> 00:01:07,450 sweeping cuts across national parks and public lands. 26 00:01:07,775 --> 00:01:10,254 Our executive director Jen Rokala called it a 27 00:01:10,254 --> 00:01:11,875 bleak vision even. 28 00:01:13,295 --> 00:01:14,754 Let's just run through 29 00:01:15,055 --> 00:01:16,974 some of what they wanna do here because 30 00:01:16,974 --> 00:01:19,075 it it does involve everything we've been 31 00:01:19,375 --> 00:01:20,515 warning about, 32 00:01:20,829 --> 00:01:23,549 handing over public lands to states or just 33 00:01:23,549 --> 00:01:24,689 outright disposal, 34 00:01:25,390 --> 00:01:26,849 deep cuts to firefighting, 35 00:01:27,150 --> 00:01:29,310 forest service, you you name it. So alright. 36 00:01:29,310 --> 00:01:31,489 Starting with the National Park Service. 37 00:01:31,950 --> 00:01:36,129 The president wants to cut $900,000,000 38 00:01:36,564 --> 00:01:38,584 from National Park Service operation, 39 00:01:39,125 --> 00:01:40,104 and that includes 40 00:01:40,405 --> 00:01:40,905 transferring, 41 00:01:41,604 --> 00:01:45,284 quote, unquote, certain properties from the National Park 42 00:01:45,284 --> 00:01:45,784 Service 43 00:01:46,084 --> 00:01:46,825 to states. 44 00:01:47,364 --> 00:01:49,604 They're careful to say they're not talking about 45 00:01:49,604 --> 00:01:51,540 national parks themselves, but 46 00:01:52,020 --> 00:01:54,340 many of these other national park sites that 47 00:01:54,340 --> 00:01:56,920 are run by the National Park Service, places 48 00:01:57,060 --> 00:01:57,560 like, 49 00:01:59,060 --> 00:01:59,799 for example, 50 00:02:00,980 --> 00:02:04,420 Montezuma Castle National Monument in Arizona. Lots of 51 00:02:04,420 --> 00:02:07,079 these smaller sites that are historic in nature 52 00:02:07,364 --> 00:02:09,685 run by the National Park Service. You could 53 00:02:09,685 --> 00:02:10,824 look at things like 54 00:02:11,525 --> 00:02:12,025 Stonewall 55 00:02:12,645 --> 00:02:15,865 National Monument recently designated in in New York. 56 00:02:15,925 --> 00:02:18,805 All sorts of stuff. Yeah. Hovenweep National Monument 57 00:02:18,805 --> 00:02:20,884 in Utah, that's run by the National Park 58 00:02:20,884 --> 00:02:21,384 Service. 59 00:02:21,989 --> 00:02:23,989 A lot of the older national monuments are 60 00:02:23,989 --> 00:02:26,129 run by the National Park Service and, 61 00:02:26,870 --> 00:02:28,389 would be, you know, 62 00:02:28,709 --> 00:02:30,090 included in this order. 63 00:02:30,389 --> 00:02:31,610 It's really shocking, 64 00:02:32,629 --> 00:02:35,669 that the Trump administration is proposing this. Here 65 00:02:35,669 --> 00:02:36,409 in Utah, 66 00:02:37,094 --> 00:02:40,375 state legislature ran a bill to allows the 67 00:02:40,375 --> 00:02:42,155 state of Utah to co manage 68 00:02:42,534 --> 00:02:45,014 national parks with the federal government. It was 69 00:02:45,014 --> 00:02:46,935 more of a resolution because they don't actually 70 00:02:46,935 --> 00:02:48,075 have the power to, 71 00:02:48,455 --> 00:02:50,370 wrest control over the parks. 72 00:02:50,769 --> 00:02:53,090 But that bill failed because the state of 73 00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:54,930 Utah doesn't wanna take on the cost of 74 00:02:54,930 --> 00:02:56,069 managing these places, 75 00:02:57,169 --> 00:02:58,069 which is exactly 76 00:02:58,370 --> 00:03:00,289 why this is such a big threat. If 77 00:03:00,289 --> 00:03:02,310 it was to come to pass, you know, 78 00:03:02,370 --> 00:03:02,870 these 79 00:03:03,314 --> 00:03:05,555 parks would essentially just be shut down and 80 00:03:05,555 --> 00:03:08,594 privatized, sold off, because the states don't have 81 00:03:08,594 --> 00:03:09,814 the money to run these. 82 00:03:10,675 --> 00:03:12,514 And the cuts to the National Park Service 83 00:03:12,514 --> 00:03:13,334 that are proposed 84 00:03:13,955 --> 00:03:16,914 keep going from there. A hundred and $58,000,000 85 00:03:16,914 --> 00:03:18,215 cut from historic preservation, 86 00:03:18,980 --> 00:03:20,819 $73,000,000 87 00:03:20,819 --> 00:03:23,639 from long overdue construction projects 88 00:03:24,020 --> 00:03:26,120 trying to address that national parks 89 00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:27,639 maintenance backlog. 90 00:03:29,699 --> 00:03:31,620 That's just park service. Okay. Moving on to 91 00:03:31,620 --> 00:03:33,000 the Bureau of Land Management, 92 00:03:33,314 --> 00:03:35,555 A hundred and ninety eight million dollars in 93 00:03:35,555 --> 00:03:39,074 proposed cuts. All of that targeted at national 94 00:03:39,074 --> 00:03:39,574 monuments, 95 00:03:40,114 --> 00:03:40,614 including, 96 00:03:41,235 --> 00:03:44,594 what this budget proposal calls deep reductions to 97 00:03:44,594 --> 00:03:45,894 undo, unquote, 98 00:03:46,194 --> 00:03:47,574 national monument designations 99 00:03:48,230 --> 00:03:51,050 made under presidents Biden and Obama. 100 00:03:52,069 --> 00:03:55,290 It That's confusing because I don't understand where 101 00:03:55,349 --> 00:03:57,750 you get a you get $200,000,000 102 00:03:57,750 --> 00:03:58,730 just from removing 103 00:03:59,349 --> 00:04:02,330 monument designations. Monuments don't come with funding. 104 00:04:03,245 --> 00:04:03,745 So 105 00:04:04,125 --> 00:04:05,805 I'm curious, Aaron, if you have thoughts on 106 00:04:05,805 --> 00:04:06,544 that math. 107 00:04:08,365 --> 00:04:10,365 It doesn't math, of course, and that's why 108 00:04:10,365 --> 00:04:12,145 they just released this as a very 109 00:04:12,444 --> 00:04:15,405 broad sort of top line spreadsheet with no 110 00:04:15,405 --> 00:04:18,120 details. Because as soon as you release details 111 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,199 on where those cuts are coming from, you're 112 00:04:20,199 --> 00:04:21,660 talking about the land managers 113 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,699 who do the work of managing visitors 114 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:25,980 and grazing 115 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:28,600 and all of everything that goes into multiple 116 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,420 use. You you can't get a hundred $98,000,000 117 00:04:31,534 --> 00:04:34,334 from the BLM budget without that also being 118 00:04:34,334 --> 00:04:35,634 serious staffing cuts 119 00:04:36,095 --> 00:04:37,214 on the ground. Right. 120 00:04:37,694 --> 00:04:39,935 The Fish and Wildlife Service proposing to cut 121 00:04:39,935 --> 00:04:41,794 a hundred and $70,000,000 122 00:04:41,935 --> 00:04:45,120 from species conservation programs that are managed by 123 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,379 states or tribes or other nations. 124 00:04:47,919 --> 00:04:49,699 A half billion dollars 125 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,180 from the US geological survey cutting 126 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,279 pure science. That's the research and investigations and 127 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,759 surveys that we need in order to find 128 00:04:57,759 --> 00:04:58,899 out what is happening 129 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:00,100 to our planet. 130 00:05:00,995 --> 00:05:02,675 And then moving over to the Department of 131 00:05:02,675 --> 00:05:03,175 Agriculture, 132 00:05:03,634 --> 00:05:04,774 the Forest Service, 133 00:05:05,555 --> 00:05:08,995 seven hundred and eighty three million dollars in 134 00:05:08,995 --> 00:05:09,975 proposed cuts, 135 00:05:11,074 --> 00:05:13,975 proposed to forest system management and operations, 136 00:05:14,355 --> 00:05:14,855 including 137 00:05:15,670 --> 00:05:18,009 a big sell off of our national forests. 138 00:05:18,389 --> 00:05:20,569 The White House calls that rightsizing 139 00:05:21,110 --> 00:05:22,970 their real property footprint. 140 00:05:23,589 --> 00:05:25,750 And, again, the only reason you sell off 141 00:05:25,750 --> 00:05:28,604 a national forest is because you are saying 142 00:05:28,604 --> 00:05:31,164 goodbye to sustained yield, you are saying goodbye 143 00:05:31,164 --> 00:05:33,724 to multiple use, you are just saying, okay, 144 00:05:33,724 --> 00:05:36,284 go right ahead and chop down all the 145 00:05:36,284 --> 00:05:38,604 trees. That's the only way you reach a 146 00:05:38,604 --> 00:05:42,779 number like that, $783,000,000. 147 00:05:43,319 --> 00:05:45,180 And and then we get into proposed cuts, 148 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:47,339 to tribal nations, Kate. 149 00:05:47,879 --> 00:05:51,399 Yeah. The they're proposing a 617,000,000 150 00:05:51,399 --> 00:05:53,740 cut from tribal communities and self governance, 151 00:05:54,774 --> 00:05:57,175 a hundred and 7,000,000 from tribal public safety, 152 00:05:57,175 --> 00:05:57,654 which, 153 00:05:58,055 --> 00:06:00,454 you know, with my experience back, living near 154 00:06:00,454 --> 00:06:02,954 the Navajo Reservation, that will not be popular 155 00:06:03,014 --> 00:06:05,574 among tribes. They are constantly asking for more 156 00:06:05,574 --> 00:06:06,794 public safety funding, 157 00:06:07,449 --> 00:06:09,769 and a hundred and 87,000,000 from tribal school 158 00:06:09,769 --> 00:06:12,810 construction, which is just just embarrassing and and 159 00:06:12,810 --> 00:06:13,310 shameful. 160 00:06:14,569 --> 00:06:16,409 In addition to cuts from the Bureau of 161 00:06:16,409 --> 00:06:17,789 Indian Affairs, their 162 00:06:18,089 --> 00:06:19,470 the proposal includes 163 00:06:19,845 --> 00:06:21,845 cutting around $30,000,000 164 00:06:21,845 --> 00:06:24,725 from the federal rental assistance program, and that's 165 00:06:24,725 --> 00:06:26,985 under the Department of Housing and Urban Development. 166 00:06:27,444 --> 00:06:30,404 Now that's not exactly a public land funding 167 00:06:30,404 --> 00:06:31,545 cut, but 168 00:06:32,230 --> 00:06:34,550 it does connect to public lands because the 169 00:06:34,550 --> 00:06:37,029 budget on that line item says that this 170 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:39,830 model would incentivize states in the private sector 171 00:06:39,830 --> 00:06:41,529 to provide affordable housing 172 00:06:41,830 --> 00:06:44,550 in combination with efforts related to opening up 173 00:06:44,550 --> 00:06:46,975 federal lands. Now this is referring to that 174 00:06:46,975 --> 00:06:49,475 Department of Interior and HUD MOU 175 00:06:49,935 --> 00:06:52,654 that was announced earlier this year, where, basically, 176 00:06:52,654 --> 00:06:54,735 the BLM is gonna look for public lands 177 00:06:54,735 --> 00:06:57,295 to sell off to the private sector and 178 00:06:57,295 --> 00:06:58,754 states to develop housing. 179 00:07:00,009 --> 00:07:01,770 And, you know, this is really a tell 180 00:07:01,770 --> 00:07:05,290 that the administration doesn't actually care about providing 181 00:07:05,290 --> 00:07:07,770 affordable housing. They're taking $30,000,000 182 00:07:07,770 --> 00:07:11,770 away from rental assistance programs. Sorry. They they 183 00:07:11,770 --> 00:07:12,509 are suggesting 184 00:07:13,194 --> 00:07:15,595 taking out taking away $30,000,000 from the federal 185 00:07:15,595 --> 00:07:18,714 rental assistance programs and instituting a two year 186 00:07:18,714 --> 00:07:21,834 cap on rental assistance for able-bodied adults. So, 187 00:07:22,074 --> 00:07:24,735 they're not serious about helping people find affordable 188 00:07:24,955 --> 00:07:25,455 housing. 189 00:07:26,579 --> 00:07:29,399 Couple other things to flag. Private conservation, 190 00:07:30,259 --> 00:07:33,539 proposing a 3 quarters of a billion dollar 191 00:07:33,539 --> 00:07:37,639 cut from private land conservation under the NRCS, 192 00:07:37,860 --> 00:07:40,785 Natural Resource Conservation Service, that's part of the 193 00:07:41,024 --> 00:07:43,665 agriculture department. There, you're just talking about taking 194 00:07:43,665 --> 00:07:45,845 away money that was going to farmers 195 00:07:46,305 --> 00:07:47,205 to have 196 00:07:47,584 --> 00:07:50,884 conservation and farming coexist providing habitat 197 00:07:51,425 --> 00:07:52,564 on private lands. 198 00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:56,740 Yeah. That's conservation easements. Right? That's conservation easements. 199 00:07:57,039 --> 00:07:57,539 That's 200 00:07:58,159 --> 00:07:59,459 that's crop rotation. 201 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,220 Any number of, 202 00:08:01,839 --> 00:08:03,939 ways that farmers are crucial, 203 00:08:04,639 --> 00:08:06,099 to conservation in America. 204 00:08:06,544 --> 00:08:09,845 And then finally, the really bonkers proposal here 205 00:08:09,904 --> 00:08:11,764 doesn't even come with a dollar figure. 206 00:08:12,305 --> 00:08:13,764 This budget is proposing 207 00:08:14,384 --> 00:08:14,884 consolidating 208 00:08:15,504 --> 00:08:16,004 wildfire 209 00:08:16,464 --> 00:08:16,964 operations. 210 00:08:17,504 --> 00:08:18,004 Now 211 00:08:18,384 --> 00:08:20,250 maybe at first glance, that doesn't sound so 212 00:08:20,250 --> 00:08:22,250 bad, but when you realize what they're proposing 213 00:08:22,250 --> 00:08:23,930 to do and how they wanna do it, 214 00:08:23,930 --> 00:08:26,669 they wanna take all wildfire operations 215 00:08:27,129 --> 00:08:27,629 away 216 00:08:28,009 --> 00:08:30,509 from the forest service and consolidate 217 00:08:30,889 --> 00:08:32,990 all of that at the interior department. 218 00:08:33,450 --> 00:08:36,625 Now the office of Wildland Fire at Interior 219 00:08:37,404 --> 00:08:38,785 is currently controlled 220 00:08:39,325 --> 00:08:42,605 by Tyler Hasson, who is Elon Musk's Doge 221 00:08:42,605 --> 00:08:45,665 operative, who is serving as the assistant secretary 222 00:08:46,009 --> 00:08:49,070 for policy management and budget under a secretarial 223 00:08:49,129 --> 00:08:50,730 order that we talked about earlier on this 224 00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:51,230 podcast. 225 00:08:52,089 --> 00:08:55,549 Tyler Hasson has complete control over the interior 226 00:08:55,610 --> 00:08:57,549 department's staffing and reorganization, 227 00:08:58,330 --> 00:09:00,269 and this is a guy who is completely 228 00:09:00,730 --> 00:09:01,230 unqualified 229 00:09:01,985 --> 00:09:04,144 for that job to say nothing of his 230 00:09:04,144 --> 00:09:05,045 lack of qualifications 231 00:09:05,665 --> 00:09:06,404 to oversee 232 00:09:06,865 --> 00:09:10,384 all wildfire response across the federal government. That 233 00:09:10,384 --> 00:09:10,884 proposal 234 00:09:11,185 --> 00:09:11,685 just 235 00:09:12,305 --> 00:09:12,805 bonkers. 236 00:09:13,825 --> 00:09:16,290 Anyway, all of this, it's a statement of 237 00:09:16,290 --> 00:09:19,009 values. It's a statement of what president Trump 238 00:09:19,009 --> 00:09:20,549 wants congress to do. 239 00:09:20,850 --> 00:09:24,049 We now have the first inclination of what 240 00:09:24,049 --> 00:09:26,529 that could look like on the congressional side 241 00:09:26,529 --> 00:09:28,850 as well. The House Natural Resources Committee has 242 00:09:28,850 --> 00:09:31,795 released its first funding bill. We're not even 243 00:09:31,795 --> 00:09:34,115 gonna get into how that aligns or doesn't 244 00:09:34,115 --> 00:09:36,915 align with the president's wish list here, but 245 00:09:36,915 --> 00:09:39,335 that's where the table is set right now 246 00:09:39,475 --> 00:09:41,415 going into the reconciliation 247 00:09:42,675 --> 00:09:45,075 process in congress that will play out over 248 00:09:45,075 --> 00:09:46,350 the next several months. 249 00:09:46,750 --> 00:09:49,329 Needless to say, this is bleak, but also 250 00:09:50,110 --> 00:09:52,350 all of this will put a lot of 251 00:09:52,350 --> 00:09:53,409 members of Congress 252 00:09:53,870 --> 00:09:56,269 in a really tough spot once the details 253 00:09:56,269 --> 00:09:58,509 start coming out and it begins to be 254 00:09:58,509 --> 00:10:01,554 clear exactly where the Trump administration 255 00:10:02,254 --> 00:10:03,875 wants to do these cuts, especially 256 00:10:04,575 --> 00:10:08,095 handing over national park sites to state governments 257 00:10:08,095 --> 00:10:10,034 that don't have the money to run them. 258 00:10:10,495 --> 00:10:12,335 That's where we're at. Sorry, this was a 259 00:10:12,335 --> 00:10:14,975 bit of a longer detour news segment than 260 00:10:14,975 --> 00:10:15,475 usual, 261 00:10:16,230 --> 00:10:18,870 but wanna make sure everyone here is up 262 00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:21,529 to speed on what could happen next. 263 00:10:25,429 --> 00:10:27,210 Our guest today is Len Nesseffer, 264 00:10:27,590 --> 00:10:30,309 CEO and founder of Natives Outdoors, a native 265 00:10:30,309 --> 00:10:33,804 owned outdoor media apparel, and consulting company. You 266 00:10:33,804 --> 00:10:35,565 may also know him as the man behind 267 00:10:35,565 --> 00:10:38,605 the Snore and Avalanche Center Instagram account. Len's 268 00:10:38,605 --> 00:10:40,684 here today to talk about his latest project, 269 00:10:40,684 --> 00:10:43,324 a documentary film about the Colorado River Basin 270 00:10:43,324 --> 00:10:45,105 titled the American Southwest. 271 00:10:45,565 --> 00:10:47,424 Len, thanks so much for joining us. 272 00:10:47,750 --> 00:10:50,070 Yeah. I'm happy to be back. It's been 273 00:10:50,070 --> 00:10:50,889 way too long. 274 00:10:51,509 --> 00:10:52,970 I know. Sorry about that. 275 00:10:54,309 --> 00:10:56,970 First of all, I just wanna say, wow. 276 00:10:57,110 --> 00:10:58,809 The film is spectacular. 277 00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:59,769 It's, 278 00:11:00,549 --> 00:11:02,329 you know, as someone who's worked on 279 00:11:02,714 --> 00:11:05,995 some date some nature documentary style films for, 280 00:11:06,235 --> 00:11:07,834 my job here at CWP, I know how 281 00:11:07,834 --> 00:11:10,095 much work probably went into this. It's, 282 00:11:10,714 --> 00:11:12,014 really there's just, like, 283 00:11:12,475 --> 00:11:14,014 perfect from top to bottom. 284 00:11:14,714 --> 00:11:16,735 Beautifully written narration, incredible 285 00:11:17,194 --> 00:11:19,889 b roll of animals, which I know is, 286 00:11:19,889 --> 00:11:22,129 like, the hardest thing to get. There's like 287 00:11:22,210 --> 00:11:23,190 it seems like 288 00:11:23,490 --> 00:11:25,350 a original score by a symphony. 289 00:11:25,970 --> 00:11:27,670 It's just, like, spectacular. 290 00:11:28,290 --> 00:11:28,790 So 291 00:11:29,330 --> 00:11:30,550 will you describe, 292 00:11:31,424 --> 00:11:33,745 like, the documentary and and what it covers 293 00:11:33,745 --> 00:11:34,565 for our listeners, 294 00:11:34,945 --> 00:11:36,065 so they have a sense of what we're 295 00:11:36,065 --> 00:11:37,044 talking about here? 296 00:11:38,144 --> 00:11:40,485 Yeah. So the film American Southwest 297 00:11:40,785 --> 00:11:43,105 is a story of the Colorado River told 298 00:11:43,105 --> 00:11:43,605 through 299 00:11:44,029 --> 00:11:46,669 the animals and people along the river from 300 00:11:46,669 --> 00:11:47,169 headwaters 301 00:11:47,950 --> 00:11:49,790 in the Upper Basin states all the way 302 00:11:49,790 --> 00:11:51,809 down to the Sea Of Cortez. 303 00:11:52,830 --> 00:11:54,910 And along that journey of the river, we 304 00:11:54,910 --> 00:11:55,410 tell 305 00:11:55,790 --> 00:11:57,169 a multitude of stories 306 00:11:58,029 --> 00:11:58,929 that capture 307 00:11:59,815 --> 00:12:02,375 the threats and pressures and also the historical 308 00:12:02,375 --> 00:12:04,295 significance of this river told through the lens 309 00:12:04,295 --> 00:12:06,315 of animals, which I think is really fun. 310 00:12:07,654 --> 00:12:08,154 But 311 00:12:08,774 --> 00:12:11,014 in many respects, it's a timely movie and 312 00:12:11,014 --> 00:12:11,995 we made it 313 00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:15,429 as such just given the compact renegotiation that's 314 00:12:15,429 --> 00:12:16,889 going to be happening next year. 315 00:12:17,429 --> 00:12:18,870 And a big push of the film is 316 00:12:18,870 --> 00:12:20,250 the importance of 317 00:12:21,190 --> 00:12:23,910 flowing rivers and how important it is for 318 00:12:23,910 --> 00:12:25,985 rivers to have a right to 319 00:12:26,524 --> 00:12:29,164 exist. Over the last hundred years, we've managed 320 00:12:29,164 --> 00:12:29,985 to engineer 321 00:12:30,605 --> 00:12:33,004 that river and basically into oblivion. And so 322 00:12:33,004 --> 00:12:33,904 it doesn't run 323 00:12:34,285 --> 00:12:35,745 into the Gulf anymore. 324 00:12:36,205 --> 00:12:38,065 And we think there's an opportunity 325 00:12:38,445 --> 00:12:39,105 to inspire 326 00:12:40,220 --> 00:12:41,819 folks through this movie and also get them 327 00:12:41,819 --> 00:12:43,919 acquainted of what's happening along the river. 328 00:12:44,459 --> 00:12:47,419 And, of course, animals are always fun. Yeah. 329 00:12:47,419 --> 00:12:47,919 I 330 00:12:48,299 --> 00:12:50,220 like, one thing that I especially loved about 331 00:12:50,220 --> 00:12:51,839 the film was sort of the personification 332 00:12:52,220 --> 00:12:53,919 of some of the wildlife, like, 333 00:12:54,495 --> 00:12:57,134 the scene about the beavers and how their 334 00:12:57,134 --> 00:12:59,455 their dream is to own a home and 335 00:12:59,455 --> 00:13:01,855 and have babies. It was really cute. 336 00:13:02,815 --> 00:13:05,295 So I'm curious. How did you guys, how 337 00:13:05,295 --> 00:13:08,620 did Natives Outdoors get involved with this, 338 00:13:09,100 --> 00:13:10,779 film? It was produced by a group called 339 00:13:10,940 --> 00:13:12,879 well, coproduced by you guys in a film, 340 00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:15,820 production group called Fin and Fur Films. So 341 00:13:15,820 --> 00:13:17,679 how did you get pulled into this? 342 00:13:19,259 --> 00:13:20,480 Yeah. So in 343 00:13:21,019 --> 00:13:22,320 2022, 344 00:13:23,495 --> 00:13:24,394 or '21, 345 00:13:24,534 --> 00:13:26,294 I went to a a film festival in 346 00:13:26,294 --> 00:13:26,794 Texas 347 00:13:27,254 --> 00:13:28,794 for another film that we released, 348 00:13:29,254 --> 00:13:30,714 called Spirit of the Peaks. 349 00:13:31,414 --> 00:13:33,095 And we were screening it there, and we 350 00:13:33,095 --> 00:13:34,714 just happened to be paired with, 351 00:13:35,414 --> 00:13:36,809 another film group, 352 00:13:37,289 --> 00:13:39,950 Phun and Fer, and, the director Ben Masters 353 00:13:40,409 --> 00:13:42,090 was in the crowd and in the audience 354 00:13:42,090 --> 00:13:43,389 watching our film. And, 355 00:13:44,970 --> 00:13:46,970 he reminded me of the story of how 356 00:13:46,970 --> 00:13:48,509 we first met is that he 357 00:13:49,065 --> 00:13:50,424 raised his hand at the end of our 358 00:13:50,424 --> 00:13:52,924 film and said, hey. I'm a white filmmaker 359 00:13:52,985 --> 00:13:55,304 from Texas. I don't know anything about the 360 00:13:55,304 --> 00:13:58,125 Colorado River. I don't know anything about indigenous 361 00:13:58,184 --> 00:13:58,684 cultures. 362 00:13:59,144 --> 00:14:00,585 How should someone like me, 363 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:02,820 go about 364 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,679 making a movie about this? And I said, 365 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:08,080 well, you can hire us, and we'll figure 366 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,720 it out. And we'll hire or we'll, you 367 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:12,159 know, if you hire us, you know, we'll 368 00:14:12,159 --> 00:14:13,379 hold your hand, and, 369 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,440 we'll make it possible. And and so we 370 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,139 stayed in touch after that and, 371 00:14:17,485 --> 00:14:19,105 you know, kept talking, and he, 372 00:14:19,565 --> 00:14:21,884 secured funding for this film. And and, 373 00:14:23,325 --> 00:14:25,184 and one of the things that we 374 00:14:25,965 --> 00:14:28,605 early on discussed was how do we talk 375 00:14:28,605 --> 00:14:31,409 about the incredible human history along the river. 376 00:14:32,129 --> 00:14:34,470 And there's one sequence in the film, halfway 377 00:14:34,690 --> 00:14:37,009 through the film, that talks about the human 378 00:14:37,009 --> 00:14:38,870 history of Bears Ears, and, 379 00:14:39,250 --> 00:14:40,690 one of the things that we talk about 380 00:14:40,690 --> 00:14:41,669 there is just, 381 00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:44,230 the 382 00:14:45,884 --> 00:14:47,325 let me take a step back. So one 383 00:14:47,325 --> 00:14:49,105 of the ways that we talk about, 384 00:14:49,965 --> 00:14:52,125 human history is through rock art. One of 385 00:14:52,125 --> 00:14:53,805 the things that you see in Bears Ears 386 00:14:53,805 --> 00:14:54,305 is, 387 00:14:55,884 --> 00:14:58,524 thousands of years of history, lots of depictions 388 00:14:58,524 --> 00:14:59,745 of animals and people. 389 00:15:00,289 --> 00:15:02,209 And in many ways, our film sort of 390 00:15:02,209 --> 00:15:03,669 does the same thing. Those 391 00:15:04,289 --> 00:15:06,049 inscriptions on the rock were meant to tell 392 00:15:06,049 --> 00:15:08,850 a story and to tell people afterwards about 393 00:15:08,850 --> 00:15:11,490 what was happening, where the animals were at, 394 00:15:11,490 --> 00:15:13,409 and what's going on. And in many ways, 395 00:15:13,409 --> 00:15:16,315 our film aims to do the same thing. 396 00:15:16,315 --> 00:15:16,975 And so 397 00:15:17,434 --> 00:15:20,075 we worked with Ben on about and in 398 00:15:20,075 --> 00:15:22,315 the Fin and Fur crew with about 50% 399 00:15:22,315 --> 00:15:24,495 of the film, more or less. And 400 00:15:25,995 --> 00:15:27,774 so the elk 401 00:15:28,830 --> 00:15:30,990 rut was one of the was my first 402 00:15:30,990 --> 00:15:33,629 foray and another one of our filmer's first 403 00:15:33,629 --> 00:15:34,350 foray into, 404 00:15:35,389 --> 00:15:37,950 wildlife filmmaking, and it's very different than action 405 00:15:37,950 --> 00:15:38,450 sports. 406 00:15:39,149 --> 00:15:41,169 It's a lot more waiting. It's 407 00:15:41,804 --> 00:15:43,404 way less scripted and a lot of the 408 00:15:43,404 --> 00:15:46,144 magic happens in post production and editing. 409 00:15:47,085 --> 00:15:47,825 But really 410 00:15:48,365 --> 00:15:49,965 one of the things that we aim for 411 00:15:49,965 --> 00:15:52,365 is just trying to capture animals' behaviors that 412 00:15:52,365 --> 00:15:54,445 can tell the story and help us weave 413 00:15:54,445 --> 00:15:55,664 a coherent narrative. 414 00:15:56,059 --> 00:15:58,139 And so in in many respects, it was 415 00:15:58,139 --> 00:16:00,000 like jumping in the deep end. And 416 00:16:01,419 --> 00:16:02,480 in in that respect, 417 00:16:02,940 --> 00:16:05,179 I could on also understand where Ben was 418 00:16:05,179 --> 00:16:07,259 coming from when we wanted to incorporate things 419 00:16:07,259 --> 00:16:07,759 like 420 00:16:08,184 --> 00:16:09,784 the the story about Bears Ears and human 421 00:16:09,784 --> 00:16:12,105 history. And so, you know, in many respects, 422 00:16:12,105 --> 00:16:14,345 we were learning together, and we come from 423 00:16:14,345 --> 00:16:16,044 such wildly different backgrounds. 424 00:16:17,144 --> 00:16:20,184 Ben's from Amarillo, Texas, and I've grown up 425 00:16:20,184 --> 00:16:23,470 in the Southwest on on reservations. And, you 426 00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:24,669 know, it was I think one of the 427 00:16:24,669 --> 00:16:27,169 things that really made that film powerful is, 428 00:16:28,830 --> 00:16:30,669 the friendship that we all built as a 429 00:16:30,669 --> 00:16:32,370 team through this process. And, 430 00:16:33,149 --> 00:16:35,070 but also just getting to spend these really 431 00:16:35,070 --> 00:16:37,389 long periods of time on landscape with each 432 00:16:37,389 --> 00:16:40,675 other and just having these long discussions about 433 00:16:40,675 --> 00:16:41,654 how do we approach 434 00:16:42,274 --> 00:16:44,134 telling these stories, what's a priority, 435 00:16:45,715 --> 00:16:47,715 and and really just trying to weave this 436 00:16:47,715 --> 00:16:49,014 coherent narrative together. 437 00:16:49,955 --> 00:16:51,095 And and prior to, 438 00:16:51,809 --> 00:16:54,070 we filmed this elk rut, went really well, 439 00:16:54,450 --> 00:16:56,370 and then we then went off to do 440 00:16:56,370 --> 00:16:59,490 this sequences about Bears Ears and Lake Powell 441 00:16:59,490 --> 00:17:00,629 in that area. And, 442 00:17:02,210 --> 00:17:02,710 I 443 00:17:03,170 --> 00:17:03,670 snagged 444 00:17:05,554 --> 00:17:07,954 a cancellation river permit on, like, the weekend 445 00:17:07,954 --> 00:17:09,634 right before we were supposed to film. And 446 00:17:09,634 --> 00:17:11,554 I said, Ben, like, if you can just 447 00:17:11,554 --> 00:17:13,174 make it out a couple days early, 448 00:17:13,634 --> 00:17:14,855 we can get on the river. 449 00:17:15,234 --> 00:17:15,734 And 450 00:17:16,515 --> 00:17:18,515 when Ben arrives, you know, he's getting his 451 00:17:18,515 --> 00:17:20,214 camera gear together and 452 00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:21,190 and, 453 00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:23,750 you know, it's like in work mode. And 454 00:17:23,750 --> 00:17:25,110 I just I remember telling him, I was 455 00:17:25,110 --> 00:17:26,630 like, Ben, we we're not supposed to start 456 00:17:26,630 --> 00:17:28,710 shooting until Monday. It's Friday. And I said, 457 00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:30,730 just put that away. Let's just go 458 00:17:31,430 --> 00:17:33,990 float the river. Let's just go be in 459 00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:36,904 this place just to experience it together 460 00:17:37,524 --> 00:17:39,764 and have conversations that will lead to that. 461 00:17:39,764 --> 00:17:40,264 And, 462 00:17:42,964 --> 00:17:45,845 so that plus, you know, a bottle of 463 00:17:45,845 --> 00:17:48,484 tequila will do go go quite far on 464 00:17:48,484 --> 00:17:50,619 a river trip. And so we had these 465 00:17:50,619 --> 00:17:52,779 long discussions, and we we rode the river 466 00:17:52,779 --> 00:17:53,759 over a couple days. 467 00:17:54,220 --> 00:17:56,539 And, I think what came out of that, 468 00:17:56,539 --> 00:17:59,200 though, is this real deep thoughtfulness and transformation 469 00:17:59,419 --> 00:18:00,480 for both of us 470 00:18:00,859 --> 00:18:02,880 of me showing this place 471 00:18:03,585 --> 00:18:05,444 of the American Southwest that I've 472 00:18:05,825 --> 00:18:08,384 become so deeply connected to, through my other 473 00:18:08,384 --> 00:18:10,625 work. And for Ben, it's, you know, a 474 00:18:10,625 --> 00:18:12,464 place that he's visited, but now hasn't had, 475 00:18:12,464 --> 00:18:14,224 like, sort of this deeper connection. And it 476 00:18:14,224 --> 00:18:15,744 was really cool to be able to introduce 477 00:18:15,744 --> 00:18:17,904 that to him and really just see how 478 00:18:17,904 --> 00:18:18,644 this gets 479 00:18:19,289 --> 00:18:21,450 threaded through the film. And in many ways, 480 00:18:21,450 --> 00:18:21,950 the, 481 00:18:22,890 --> 00:18:24,809 you know, I was consulting with Ben and 482 00:18:24,809 --> 00:18:26,970 giving him direction on where to take this, 483 00:18:26,970 --> 00:18:28,570 but a lot of that is it's sort 484 00:18:28,570 --> 00:18:31,289 of a a synthesis through, Ben and and 485 00:18:31,289 --> 00:18:33,434 the editorial team, but really it's in at 486 00:18:33,434 --> 00:18:35,115 its core, it's this friendship that came out 487 00:18:35,115 --> 00:18:37,375 of it. That makes a lot of sense, 488 00:18:37,755 --> 00:18:39,755 because it it does the film does a 489 00:18:39,755 --> 00:18:42,075 lot. It does it tells, you know, the 490 00:18:42,075 --> 00:18:44,474 history of the Bears Ears region while also 491 00:18:44,474 --> 00:18:46,794 talking about the Colorado River Basin and the 492 00:18:46,794 --> 00:18:49,119 Colorado Compact. Like, it's covering 493 00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:52,539 so much ground, but it didn't feel forced 494 00:18:52,539 --> 00:18:54,779 at all. So I can I I can 495 00:18:54,779 --> 00:18:55,519 see how, 496 00:18:55,820 --> 00:18:57,039 like, you guys 497 00:18:57,660 --> 00:18:59,500 really work together and sort of used your 498 00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,200 strengths to make that all work? 499 00:19:02,194 --> 00:19:04,835 And so I assume that you that you 500 00:19:04,835 --> 00:19:05,335 and, 501 00:19:06,115 --> 00:19:09,154 Natives Outdoors were also involved in identifying the 502 00:19:09,154 --> 00:19:09,654 narrator, 503 00:19:10,115 --> 00:19:13,654 Quana Chasing Horse, who did a fabulous job. 504 00:19:14,434 --> 00:19:16,049 And the film is billed as the first 505 00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:18,690 blue chip natural history film narrated by an 506 00:19:18,690 --> 00:19:21,650 indigenous person. Could you sort of explain why 507 00:19:21,650 --> 00:19:23,809 that what what that means and why it 508 00:19:23,809 --> 00:19:26,210 was important to have a native person in 509 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:27,350 that role as narrator? 510 00:19:29,744 --> 00:19:31,904 Yeah. I think there's a few pieces that 511 00:19:31,904 --> 00:19:33,345 led to that. You know, one of the 512 00:19:33,424 --> 00:19:34,724 the other thing that we 513 00:19:35,025 --> 00:19:37,664 did with this film was incorporated this element 514 00:19:37,664 --> 00:19:39,845 of human history and people. 515 00:19:40,464 --> 00:19:41,765 And, you know, there's, 516 00:19:42,380 --> 00:19:44,859 you know, indigenous and native history along the 517 00:19:44,859 --> 00:19:46,399 entire section of the river. 518 00:19:46,700 --> 00:19:48,220 And one of the questions that we were 519 00:19:48,220 --> 00:19:49,899 kind of balancing and trying to figure out 520 00:19:49,899 --> 00:19:51,339 is, like, is this something that would spring 521 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:52,399 sprinkle through 522 00:19:52,779 --> 00:19:54,539 each of the sequences? And some of it 523 00:19:54,539 --> 00:19:56,399 felt forced if we did. 524 00:19:57,664 --> 00:20:00,384 And we said, well, let's do one really 525 00:20:00,384 --> 00:20:02,464 good section that talks about it in-depth and 526 00:20:02,464 --> 00:20:03,125 really just, 527 00:20:03,505 --> 00:20:05,444 I think, speaks to the rest of, 528 00:20:06,305 --> 00:20:08,325 the film as well where we just highlighted 529 00:20:08,545 --> 00:20:09,684 some of the gems 530 00:20:10,349 --> 00:20:12,190 along the river, and we said we're gonna 531 00:20:12,190 --> 00:20:14,670 do these sections really well. We're not gonna 532 00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:17,150 force this particular story. And in that in 533 00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:18,210 itself is incorporating 534 00:20:18,910 --> 00:20:20,190 that human history and, 535 00:20:23,575 --> 00:20:25,195 native history along the river, 536 00:20:25,975 --> 00:20:27,815 is in many ways a first as well. 537 00:20:27,815 --> 00:20:30,315 We haven't seen that sort of coexist along 538 00:20:32,055 --> 00:20:34,154 with another wildlife film, and that was intentional 539 00:20:34,215 --> 00:20:35,674 because a lot of native peoples 540 00:20:36,055 --> 00:20:37,035 along the rivers 541 00:20:38,109 --> 00:20:41,390 see their identity and existence intertwined with these 542 00:20:41,390 --> 00:20:43,710 ecosystems as well. And so in some in 543 00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:45,490 sort of a larger approach, 544 00:20:46,190 --> 00:20:48,049 we tried to weave this in throughout. 545 00:20:49,230 --> 00:20:49,730 And 546 00:20:50,804 --> 00:20:52,504 in the discussions about 547 00:20:53,044 --> 00:20:54,964 the river and who would narrate, you know, 548 00:20:54,964 --> 00:20:56,345 we really were not, 549 00:20:56,804 --> 00:20:58,804 kicking around a bunch of ideas about who 550 00:20:58,804 --> 00:20:59,865 that could be. And, 551 00:21:01,125 --> 00:21:02,565 you know, one of the things that we 552 00:21:02,565 --> 00:21:04,744 just thought was really important was just, 553 00:21:07,179 --> 00:21:08,480 in in looking at 554 00:21:09,740 --> 00:21:12,299 how blue chip wildlife films have been done 555 00:21:12,299 --> 00:21:13,660 in the past, you know, we think of, 556 00:21:13,660 --> 00:21:16,460 like, David Attenborough and planet Earth and these 557 00:21:16,460 --> 00:21:19,019 very male voices. But in the Navajo world 558 00:21:19,019 --> 00:21:20,954 view, in a lot of worldviews of native 559 00:21:20,954 --> 00:21:23,195 peoples along the river, rivers are female. Mhmm. 560 00:21:23,195 --> 00:21:24,474 They can be male too, but, you know, 561 00:21:24,474 --> 00:21:26,075 a lot at least those major sections that 562 00:21:26,075 --> 00:21:28,095 we were looking at are female rivers. 563 00:21:28,714 --> 00:21:29,214 And, 564 00:21:30,555 --> 00:21:32,234 and that came up on our river trip, 565 00:21:32,234 --> 00:21:34,900 you know, just like talking about these perspectives. 566 00:21:34,900 --> 00:21:37,140 And I think what came of that is 567 00:21:37,140 --> 00:21:38,759 we had worked with Quanah in, 568 00:21:39,940 --> 00:21:42,580 some of our team members. Isaiah Branch Boyle 569 00:21:42,580 --> 00:21:44,740 specifically had worked with Quanah on her film 570 00:21:44,740 --> 00:21:46,279 that she made with The North Face 571 00:21:46,580 --> 00:21:48,279 about her advocacy. And 572 00:21:48,580 --> 00:21:50,644 I had been connected through, 573 00:21:51,505 --> 00:21:53,985 the steering committee and the work that I've 574 00:21:53,985 --> 00:21:55,825 been doing with the and other films like 575 00:21:55,825 --> 00:21:56,884 welcome to. 576 00:21:58,625 --> 00:22:00,305 With that community, and I knew her mom, 577 00:22:00,305 --> 00:22:03,345 Jody, and we had actually hired Quanah's brother 578 00:22:03,345 --> 00:22:04,085 on another 579 00:22:05,069 --> 00:22:07,569 film as a as a PA and, 580 00:22:08,589 --> 00:22:10,509 incredibly funny guy. And so we just kinda 581 00:22:10,509 --> 00:22:12,750 knew the family. We knew them. And, one 582 00:22:12,750 --> 00:22:14,109 of the things that came up in in 583 00:22:14,109 --> 00:22:16,190 talking in in Quanah's film is that we 584 00:22:16,190 --> 00:22:18,174 learned that she was actually born on the 585 00:22:18,174 --> 00:22:20,254 Navajo Nation. So she was born in the 586 00:22:20,254 --> 00:22:20,754 basin, 587 00:22:21,934 --> 00:22:24,514 in, on the Navajo Reservation. And, 588 00:22:26,575 --> 00:22:29,294 so this was a river that formed her 589 00:22:29,294 --> 00:22:31,134 and part of her life. And and later 590 00:22:31,134 --> 00:22:32,434 in life, she moved up, 591 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:34,380 along the Yukon River 592 00:22:34,759 --> 00:22:36,220 in Alaska. And, 593 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,119 you know, I think in some ways, it 594 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:39,960 was like a full circle moment where we 595 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,200 said, well, she's great. You know, she's come 596 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:42,700 to 597 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,599 prominence through her modeling, and largely her modeling 598 00:22:46,599 --> 00:22:46,902 came out of her advocacy and activism work 599 00:22:46,902 --> 00:22:47,420 around protecting the, 600 00:22:49,184 --> 00:22:53,424 activism work around protecting the, porcupine caribou herd. 601 00:22:53,424 --> 00:22:53,924 And, 602 00:22:55,025 --> 00:22:56,625 we said this is a great fit. It's 603 00:22:56,625 --> 00:22:57,765 a little bit like, 604 00:22:59,424 --> 00:23:00,484 how would you say, 605 00:23:00,980 --> 00:23:03,000 a novel but unexpected feature, 606 00:23:03,539 --> 00:23:05,480 of why would, you know, 607 00:23:05,779 --> 00:23:08,680 a half Lakota, half Quichetchen model be be 608 00:23:09,140 --> 00:23:11,059 the voice over. And and really, as you 609 00:23:11,059 --> 00:23:12,119 notice in the film, 610 00:23:13,214 --> 00:23:13,714 I 611 00:23:14,255 --> 00:23:16,095 even for me watching it on a big 612 00:23:16,095 --> 00:23:17,474 screen again, I I, 613 00:23:18,734 --> 00:23:20,494 I forgot that it was her that was 614 00:23:20,494 --> 00:23:22,494 narrating it. Just like she it was almost 615 00:23:22,494 --> 00:23:24,674 like she became the river Yeah. 616 00:23:25,799 --> 00:23:27,980 In in listening to that. And I think 617 00:23:28,039 --> 00:23:30,059 that just, you know, that sort of culmination 618 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,600 of all those factors, you know, just really 619 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,700 and seeing it on screen, I think, just 620 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,120 makes it feel like we made the right 621 00:23:36,120 --> 00:23:37,559 choice, and it's been awesome to have her 622 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:38,940 work with her in this capacity. 623 00:23:39,375 --> 00:23:41,295 Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I thought 624 00:23:41,295 --> 00:23:44,494 her narration was just, like, so well done, 625 00:23:45,214 --> 00:23:46,515 and her voice was 626 00:23:47,055 --> 00:23:48,994 really lovely to listen to. So 627 00:23:49,295 --> 00:23:51,315 I second that that was the right choice. 628 00:23:52,069 --> 00:23:52,569 So 629 00:23:52,869 --> 00:23:55,849 you mentioned this earlier. The Colorado compact states 630 00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:56,890 are renegotiating 631 00:23:57,829 --> 00:23:59,130 the compact essentially, 632 00:23:59,589 --> 00:24:01,750 not to get into the weeds. And they've 633 00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:03,429 been doing that for the past five years 634 00:24:03,429 --> 00:24:04,789 or so. So I think that it probably 635 00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:07,035 already began by the time you guys started 636 00:24:07,035 --> 00:24:09,275 talking about this film. Actually, you did say 637 00:24:09,275 --> 00:24:09,775 that. 638 00:24:10,154 --> 00:24:12,154 They're now facing a deadline to reach a 639 00:24:12,154 --> 00:24:14,394 deal by this summer, or it goes to 640 00:24:14,394 --> 00:24:17,615 the federal government or courts to sort of 641 00:24:18,075 --> 00:24:20,795 actually make those water cuts, if the states 642 00:24:20,795 --> 00:24:21,615 can't agree. 643 00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:24,080 How does that context 644 00:24:24,460 --> 00:24:26,700 like, how did that apply to the film 645 00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:28,380 as you were making it, and how do 646 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:28,880 you, 647 00:24:30,539 --> 00:24:33,740 like did you have that this deadline in 648 00:24:33,740 --> 00:24:33,980 mind, 649 00:24:35,044 --> 00:24:35,544 like, 650 00:24:36,005 --> 00:24:37,684 to to release it sort of so close 651 00:24:37,684 --> 00:24:39,625 to this deadline, or was that coincidental? 652 00:24:41,284 --> 00:24:43,224 It was very deliberate in some ways. 653 00:24:43,924 --> 00:24:45,284 You know, we could have gotten the film 654 00:24:45,284 --> 00:24:47,970 done sooner in some respects, but also we 655 00:24:47,970 --> 00:24:49,670 we were aiming for this year. 656 00:24:50,769 --> 00:24:51,750 And largely, 657 00:24:54,930 --> 00:24:56,849 you know, when I I've worked in the 658 00:24:56,849 --> 00:24:58,450 world of policy, and I've seen that in 659 00:24:58,450 --> 00:25:00,549 a lot of decisions that happened in places. 660 00:25:01,684 --> 00:25:04,005 And sometimes with people that have never had 661 00:25:04,005 --> 00:25:06,265 a meaningful or deep experience on the river, 662 00:25:06,804 --> 00:25:08,505 no fault of their own, but, 663 00:25:09,365 --> 00:25:11,144 you know, I think one of having 664 00:25:11,525 --> 00:25:13,204 worked in that world, I think there's an 665 00:25:13,204 --> 00:25:13,704 incredible 666 00:25:15,869 --> 00:25:19,070 importance if you're making consequential decisions on these 667 00:25:19,070 --> 00:25:20,369 landscapes. You need to 668 00:25:20,750 --> 00:25:22,690 have some sort of tangible connection, 669 00:25:24,509 --> 00:25:26,744 to these places. Otherwise, you're gonna miss something. 670 00:25:28,984 --> 00:25:30,984 And I think, you know, what we're trying 671 00:25:30,984 --> 00:25:33,384 to do in this particular piece is speak 672 00:25:33,384 --> 00:25:35,964 to the broader public because in many respects, 673 00:25:37,224 --> 00:25:39,785 the discussions of the compact, the discussions of 674 00:25:39,785 --> 00:25:40,605 water shortage, 675 00:25:41,029 --> 00:25:42,409 it just makes things 676 00:25:42,710 --> 00:25:43,929 so abstract 677 00:25:44,230 --> 00:25:45,210 for most folks. 678 00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:48,649 And we forget that 679 00:25:49,109 --> 00:25:51,349 this is a living river with living beings 680 00:25:51,349 --> 00:25:52,730 all along it. And 681 00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:54,649 I think in many respects, 682 00:25:55,545 --> 00:25:57,465 they deserve to have a say in this 683 00:25:57,465 --> 00:25:58,445 too. And 684 00:25:59,144 --> 00:25:59,805 I think 685 00:26:00,505 --> 00:26:02,265 part of what we were thinking in this 686 00:26:02,265 --> 00:26:03,164 is just giving 687 00:26:04,664 --> 00:26:06,664 the voice to the things that can't speak 688 00:26:06,664 --> 00:26:08,445 for themselves. I mean, I hate to 689 00:26:08,825 --> 00:26:10,920 I hate to reference the Lorax here, 690 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,480 but this is kind of a Lorax moment 691 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:13,980 where, 692 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,600 you know, these animals and beings have been 693 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,059 so critical to native peoples 694 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,279 and, of course, all of the peoples that 695 00:26:20,279 --> 00:26:23,000 live along the river. There's many ecosystem services 696 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:23,740 that occur 697 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,505 that we are unaware of that happened because 698 00:26:26,505 --> 00:26:27,244 of this. 699 00:26:27,785 --> 00:26:28,765 And I think, 700 00:26:31,065 --> 00:26:31,805 you know, 701 00:26:33,144 --> 00:26:34,125 agreements will 702 00:26:36,424 --> 00:26:38,744 this river will long outlast us. Mhmm. Right? 703 00:26:38,744 --> 00:26:39,244 And 704 00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:42,240 these agreements will come and go and pass 705 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:42,740 and, 706 00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:46,720 institutions will crumble, whatever. You know, just things 707 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,059 will happen, but we have to remember that 708 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,000 this river is a powerful force that will 709 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,779 continue to shape our futures, 710 00:26:54,224 --> 00:26:55,744 and I think we need to be treating 711 00:26:55,744 --> 00:26:57,105 it in, I think, a more, 712 00:26:57,585 --> 00:26:59,904 respectful way of the services that it provides 713 00:26:59,904 --> 00:27:00,644 and specifically 714 00:27:01,265 --> 00:27:04,144 just the importance of having a river continue 715 00:27:04,144 --> 00:27:04,724 to live. 716 00:27:05,025 --> 00:27:05,525 And, 717 00:27:06,304 --> 00:27:07,285 you know, we've 718 00:27:08,049 --> 00:27:10,130 we've engineered it for our purposes, and we 719 00:27:10,130 --> 00:27:11,410 are at a time now where we have 720 00:27:11,410 --> 00:27:13,650 another opportunity to make a decision about its 721 00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:16,130 future. And we're hoping that this will just 722 00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:18,390 be a part of that conversation. Yeah. Totally. 723 00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:20,450 It's you know, what I remember when I 724 00:27:20,450 --> 00:27:22,625 first learned about the compact and that the 725 00:27:22,625 --> 00:27:24,705 way it works is that all of the 726 00:27:24,705 --> 00:27:26,725 water gets split up to be used. 727 00:27:27,184 --> 00:27:29,345 I was shocked. I was like, wait. What 728 00:27:29,345 --> 00:27:30,244 about the river? 729 00:27:30,545 --> 00:27:32,625 Like, you're gonna just take all the water 730 00:27:32,625 --> 00:27:34,485 out of it? That's crazy. 731 00:27:35,025 --> 00:27:36,545 And I think your film does a really 732 00:27:36,545 --> 00:27:38,150 good job of of, 733 00:27:39,170 --> 00:27:40,950 illustrating why that's a 734 00:27:41,410 --> 00:27:43,490 a, you know, bad way to look at 735 00:27:43,490 --> 00:27:44,930 this and that, like, there there is a 736 00:27:44,930 --> 00:27:45,750 river there, 737 00:27:46,450 --> 00:27:48,150 that has a right to exist. 738 00:27:48,850 --> 00:27:52,095 And you end with a really sort of 739 00:27:52,414 --> 00:27:52,914 clear 740 00:27:53,294 --> 00:27:55,534 yet surprising message. At least it kind of 741 00:27:55,534 --> 00:27:56,174 took me, 742 00:27:56,654 --> 00:27:57,394 by surprise. 743 00:27:57,934 --> 00:28:00,255 It says there isn't a shortage of water 744 00:28:00,255 --> 00:28:01,075 in the Southwest. 745 00:28:01,375 --> 00:28:04,115 There's an opportunity to better steward this landscape 746 00:28:04,174 --> 00:28:05,954 and its most essential resource. 747 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,140 So I'm curious how you guys 748 00:28:08,599 --> 00:28:10,599 decided on that because I think, you know, 749 00:28:10,599 --> 00:28:12,140 there has been this 750 00:28:12,519 --> 00:28:14,279 there's this sense that, like, we're running out 751 00:28:14,279 --> 00:28:16,519 of water. There's not enough water, and that's 752 00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:19,000 driving so much of the discussion around the 753 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,839 river. But you really chose to sort of 754 00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:23,034 invert that, and I'm curious how you came 755 00:28:23,034 --> 00:28:23,835 to that decision. 756 00:28:26,615 --> 00:28:28,615 Decisions got us here, and decisions can get 757 00:28:28,615 --> 00:28:30,134 us out of it. And I think part 758 00:28:30,134 --> 00:28:32,375 of I mean, some people reference the Overton 759 00:28:32,375 --> 00:28:34,294 window, which I think is a little bit 760 00:28:34,294 --> 00:28:37,650 limited in terms of a political concept. But, 761 00:28:38,609 --> 00:28:40,309 you know, a lot of my thinking, 762 00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:43,490 actually, this the book that just came out 763 00:28:43,490 --> 00:28:45,570 that kind of has shaped and give more 764 00:28:45,570 --> 00:28:47,490 clarity to this this idea that we were 765 00:28:47,490 --> 00:28:49,650 kind of circling around and talk and pointed 766 00:28:49,650 --> 00:28:51,750 to was this idea of abundance as recline's 767 00:28:52,484 --> 00:28:53,224 new book, 768 00:28:53,845 --> 00:28:55,204 had the chance to read it. And and, 769 00:28:55,204 --> 00:28:56,724 you know, in the beginning chapter, he actually 770 00:28:56,724 --> 00:28:59,125 talks about the Colorado River, and there is 771 00:28:59,125 --> 00:29:01,204 a future in which this river can flow, 772 00:29:01,204 --> 00:29:02,265 and we can have, 773 00:29:03,285 --> 00:29:04,805 you know, all of the things that we 774 00:29:04,805 --> 00:29:06,644 need to come from this river, water for 775 00:29:06,644 --> 00:29:07,980 people, water for food. 776 00:29:09,019 --> 00:29:10,779 And we can also have this reality of 777 00:29:10,779 --> 00:29:12,720 water for the environment. And I think, 778 00:29:14,140 --> 00:29:15,519 I think in some respects, 779 00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:18,700 we've so commodified this river, and water itself 780 00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:20,640 has been so commodified in the West 781 00:29:21,179 --> 00:29:21,679 that 782 00:29:22,195 --> 00:29:24,434 it's hard to imagine a different future. And 783 00:29:24,434 --> 00:29:26,674 I think that's in in many respects the 784 00:29:26,674 --> 00:29:28,994 idea of let's imagine a future where there's 785 00:29:28,994 --> 00:29:31,555 enough water, and it is within is is 786 00:29:31,555 --> 00:29:32,695 well within reach. 787 00:29:33,955 --> 00:29:34,674 You know, and we 788 00:29:36,150 --> 00:29:38,809 controversial, but, you know, biggest source biggest user 789 00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:41,609 water on the river is alfalfa. Mhmm. And 790 00:29:42,230 --> 00:29:44,470 there are legislative fixes to figure that out, 791 00:29:44,470 --> 00:29:46,789 and granted there are farmers that really depend 792 00:29:46,789 --> 00:29:47,450 on this. 793 00:29:47,910 --> 00:29:50,865 But in many respects, these farmers are just 794 00:29:50,865 --> 00:29:53,744 players in the larger economy. Right? They're responding 795 00:29:53,744 --> 00:29:55,125 to market forces and, 796 00:29:56,785 --> 00:29:58,465 but I think we can imagine a future 797 00:29:58,465 --> 00:29:59,125 in which 798 00:29:59,984 --> 00:30:01,125 their needs are met 799 00:30:01,744 --> 00:30:02,244 financially, 800 00:30:02,849 --> 00:30:04,529 and also we can live in a world 801 00:30:04,529 --> 00:30:05,029 where, 802 00:30:06,130 --> 00:30:07,890 that river flows again. And I think it's 803 00:30:07,890 --> 00:30:09,589 entirely possible. And 804 00:30:10,130 --> 00:30:11,890 I don't know what that looks like, just 805 00:30:11,890 --> 00:30:13,190 how we get there Yeah. 806 00:30:14,450 --> 00:30:15,890 Just yet. And there's there's things that we 807 00:30:15,890 --> 00:30:17,250 can do that. I mean, I hate saying 808 00:30:17,250 --> 00:30:18,625 this, but, like, you know, what about lab 809 00:30:18,625 --> 00:30:21,025 growns meets? Like, it's kinda crazy to think 810 00:30:21,025 --> 00:30:23,184 about that. But, you know, imagine a world 811 00:30:23,184 --> 00:30:24,944 where that that could be a part of 812 00:30:24,944 --> 00:30:26,404 that solution. Yeah. And, 813 00:30:28,224 --> 00:30:30,065 you know, and I think that's that's been 814 00:30:30,065 --> 00:30:30,565 increasingly, 815 00:30:31,919 --> 00:30:34,720 this idea of of I think increasingly, we've 816 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,259 entered a political moment 817 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:38,099 in this country 818 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,559 where we are thinking and operating in a 819 00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:42,259 world of scarcity. Mhmm. And 820 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,039 that is a cultural framing, and that's a 821 00:30:45,039 --> 00:30:47,755 framing that has not always exist existed. 822 00:30:48,455 --> 00:30:48,955 And, 823 00:30:49,335 --> 00:30:51,414 you know, the role of film, the role 824 00:30:51,414 --> 00:30:53,174 of media, and the role of things like 825 00:30:53,174 --> 00:30:54,715 in this in podcast is 826 00:30:55,255 --> 00:30:57,575 we can shift culture. Culture is fungible and 827 00:30:57,575 --> 00:30:59,735 culture can be moved, but it takes very 828 00:30:59,735 --> 00:31:02,235 deliberate action. And so in many respects, 829 00:31:02,839 --> 00:31:05,099 we wanna push people to that idea of 830 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,240 abundance as possible and this river can flow 831 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,740 again. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You're 832 00:31:10,839 --> 00:31:12,140 you're spot on with that 833 00:31:12,759 --> 00:31:15,075 observation that, like, there's this this 834 00:31:15,554 --> 00:31:17,954 sense of, scarcity right now, and it's you 835 00:31:17,954 --> 00:31:20,434 know, drives people to make decisions based on 836 00:31:20,434 --> 00:31:21,315 fear. And it's, 837 00:31:21,875 --> 00:31:23,474 just not a good place to be operating 838 00:31:23,474 --> 00:31:25,634 from, especially when we're talking about the Colorado 839 00:31:25,634 --> 00:31:26,134 River. 840 00:31:26,514 --> 00:31:27,014 So 841 00:31:27,559 --> 00:31:29,240 who are you hoping will sort of take 842 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,319 this message and run with it? Who do 843 00:31:31,319 --> 00:31:33,400 you think you know, what's your like, if 844 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,160 you could put this film in front of, 845 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,720 you know, a group of people or or 846 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,259 one person, who would it be? 847 00:31:41,784 --> 00:31:42,924 Yeah. I 848 00:31:43,784 --> 00:31:44,765 I hope policymakers 849 00:31:45,224 --> 00:31:47,224 watch it, and they're gonna have their gripes 850 00:31:47,224 --> 00:31:48,904 about the way we frame things or the 851 00:31:48,904 --> 00:31:51,224 way we talk about things and this and 852 00:31:51,224 --> 00:31:52,289 that wasn't right, 853 00:31:54,130 --> 00:31:56,529 you know, or why certain ideas aren't feasible. 854 00:31:56,529 --> 00:31:58,769 And and I get it. You know, they're 855 00:31:58,769 --> 00:32:00,850 operating in a different ecosystem than we are 856 00:32:00,850 --> 00:32:03,009 and political constraints that we don't have as 857 00:32:03,009 --> 00:32:03,509 filmmakers. 858 00:32:05,394 --> 00:32:05,894 But 859 00:32:06,434 --> 00:32:08,275 I hope they watch it, and we're gonna 860 00:32:08,275 --> 00:32:09,714 force feed it to some of them and 861 00:32:09,714 --> 00:32:12,275 try to try to try to try to 862 00:32:12,275 --> 00:32:13,634 hunt them down and get them into a 863 00:32:13,634 --> 00:32:15,315 theater and and say, you need to watch 864 00:32:15,315 --> 00:32:16,535 this film. And, 865 00:32:17,809 --> 00:32:19,650 you know, one of the one of the 866 00:32:19,650 --> 00:32:21,169 folks that we're gonna be showing it to 867 00:32:21,169 --> 00:32:23,089 is Deb Holland at some point and and 868 00:32:23,089 --> 00:32:25,089 some other tribal leaders. We're gonna be doing 869 00:32:25,089 --> 00:32:25,490 a, 870 00:32:27,490 --> 00:32:29,890 theatrical release this fall, and part of that 871 00:32:29,890 --> 00:32:30,285 work 872 00:32:31,644 --> 00:32:32,144 is 873 00:32:32,445 --> 00:32:34,384 with with the support of, 874 00:32:35,005 --> 00:32:37,085 like, folks at the Mighty Arrow Foundation is 875 00:32:37,085 --> 00:32:38,785 doing screenings and releases 876 00:32:39,404 --> 00:32:41,025 on reservation in which tribal, 877 00:32:41,724 --> 00:32:42,224 lawmakers. 878 00:32:43,644 --> 00:32:44,144 And, 879 00:32:44,980 --> 00:32:46,899 you know, that's a very targeted release, 880 00:32:47,220 --> 00:32:49,700 but this wider release, we really want to 881 00:32:49,700 --> 00:32:51,299 get this in the eyes of the general 882 00:32:51,299 --> 00:32:52,119 public because 883 00:32:53,460 --> 00:32:55,399 we kind of forget that, you know, policy 884 00:32:55,700 --> 00:32:56,679 in many respects 885 00:32:57,805 --> 00:33:00,125 responds to the temperature in the room. And 886 00:33:00,125 --> 00:33:02,924 sometimes politicians can turn that thermostat, but not 887 00:33:02,924 --> 00:33:03,424 always. 888 00:33:04,684 --> 00:33:05,904 But these larger 889 00:33:06,285 --> 00:33:08,625 efforts to shape public opinion can 890 00:33:08,924 --> 00:33:11,244 be that that adjustment on the thermostat, and 891 00:33:11,244 --> 00:33:12,144 that's when policymakers, 892 00:33:12,445 --> 00:33:14,099 they often respond to the temperature in the 893 00:33:14,099 --> 00:33:14,599 room. 894 00:33:15,779 --> 00:33:18,019 And we think that engaging the public and 895 00:33:18,019 --> 00:33:20,180 engaging kids, like, if you watch this movie, 896 00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:21,700 this is a kid's movie in many respects. 897 00:33:23,140 --> 00:33:23,640 And 898 00:33:24,420 --> 00:33:26,500 we think that putting this idea into the 899 00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:28,994 idea of kids and their families, I think 900 00:33:28,994 --> 00:33:30,134 this is really where 901 00:33:30,434 --> 00:33:32,215 we think we can make a big impact. 902 00:33:32,275 --> 00:33:32,775 And, 903 00:33:34,115 --> 00:33:36,674 just to, like, be inspired by landscape and 904 00:33:36,674 --> 00:33:38,595 be inspired by this place and just really 905 00:33:38,595 --> 00:33:39,654 seeing what the water 906 00:33:40,159 --> 00:33:42,720 of this river does for ecosystems along it, 907 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,279 I think is, like, it's hard to refute. 908 00:33:44,279 --> 00:33:44,480 Yeah. 909 00:33:46,319 --> 00:33:47,140 And so, 910 00:33:47,599 --> 00:33:49,759 really, you know, there's gonna be a deliberate 911 00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:52,720 effort in helping to turn the temperature up 912 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:54,319 a little bit, at least in the directions 913 00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:56,265 that we want it, but also just really 914 00:33:56,265 --> 00:33:58,345 calling in people to think about this river 915 00:33:58,345 --> 00:34:00,025 differently and thinking in about it through the 916 00:34:00,025 --> 00:34:00,845 lens of wildlife. 917 00:34:01,305 --> 00:34:01,805 Absolutely. 918 00:34:02,664 --> 00:34:04,105 So a bit of a, 919 00:34:05,785 --> 00:34:07,724 detour here, but you are an activist 920 00:34:08,039 --> 00:34:10,440 in addition to a filmmaker and many other 921 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:11,500 things, a PhD, 922 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:12,380 etcetera. 923 00:34:14,039 --> 00:34:17,000 How are you personally thinking about advocating for 924 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,119 public lands and indigenous communities under the Trump 925 00:34:20,119 --> 00:34:20,619 administration 926 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:22,300 right now? I know that 927 00:34:22,625 --> 00:34:25,125 you were active last time around, but, 928 00:34:25,984 --> 00:34:27,664 things are different now. And how how are 929 00:34:27,664 --> 00:34:30,405 you sort of approaching advocacy from an abundance 930 00:34:30,464 --> 00:34:31,684 mindset, for example? 931 00:34:36,269 --> 00:34:37,789 I had a lot of naysayers a lot 932 00:34:37,789 --> 00:34:39,390 during the election when I was trying to 933 00:34:39,390 --> 00:34:41,630 prevent a second Trump presidency, and I just 934 00:34:41,630 --> 00:34:43,070 wanna say I told you so. It's, like, 935 00:34:43,070 --> 00:34:44,530 worse than we thought. But 936 00:34:44,829 --> 00:34:46,430 they said they they're doing all the things 937 00:34:46,430 --> 00:34:48,210 they said they were gonna do. So, 938 00:34:49,755 --> 00:34:50,815 you know, I 939 00:34:54,315 --> 00:34:56,155 the door is open. I'm having to happy 940 00:34:56,155 --> 00:34:57,994 to have the conversation with folks that, you 941 00:34:57,994 --> 00:34:59,914 know, regret their choices of sitting out is 942 00:34:59,914 --> 00:35:02,315 the past election because that was a huge 943 00:35:02,315 --> 00:35:02,815 driver. 944 00:35:04,889 --> 00:35:06,650 And I think I'm still in a place 945 00:35:06,650 --> 00:35:07,949 of, deep frustration 946 00:35:08,250 --> 00:35:10,329 with where we're at. On the left, it's 947 00:35:10,329 --> 00:35:10,829 fractured. 948 00:35:11,690 --> 00:35:14,329 I think we've also empowered some of the 949 00:35:14,329 --> 00:35:16,650 worst voices in in some respects around our 950 00:35:16,650 --> 00:35:19,635 advocacy that don't really aren't looking towards a 951 00:35:19,635 --> 00:35:20,934 larger cohesive vision. 952 00:35:21,474 --> 00:35:21,974 And 953 00:35:22,515 --> 00:35:23,175 I think 954 00:35:23,474 --> 00:35:24,914 I think we need to do a lot 955 00:35:24,914 --> 00:35:26,994 more soul searching of figuring out who are 956 00:35:26,994 --> 00:35:28,614 the voices are and who do we empower 957 00:35:29,235 --> 00:35:31,175 to speak on our behalf. And 958 00:35:31,635 --> 00:35:33,094 right now, I mean, 959 00:35:34,250 --> 00:35:36,409 you know, it's like it's it's, 960 00:35:38,570 --> 00:35:39,710 how should I say? 961 00:35:40,089 --> 00:35:41,929 All of it it's the first things that 962 00:35:41,929 --> 00:35:43,609 are gonna be attacked are things that, at 963 00:35:43,609 --> 00:35:45,710 least with public lands, are gonna be tribally 964 00:35:45,769 --> 00:35:46,215 led 965 00:35:46,695 --> 00:35:49,094 or co man or co stewarded man or 966 00:35:49,094 --> 00:35:51,035 national monuments Mhmm. Because 967 00:35:51,494 --> 00:35:54,315 it represents two things, empowering a marginalized community, 968 00:35:54,454 --> 00:35:56,875 shaping differently how we do public lands. 969 00:35:57,175 --> 00:35:59,255 It doesn't surprise me that that's if when 970 00:35:59,550 --> 00:36:01,469 I'm pretty sure. I'm, like, 95% 971 00:36:01,469 --> 00:36:03,150 certain certain those are gonna be the first 972 00:36:03,150 --> 00:36:03,650 announcements. 973 00:36:04,030 --> 00:36:04,690 I think, 974 00:36:06,590 --> 00:36:07,570 I think really, 975 00:36:10,670 --> 00:36:12,269 one of the things that I've been really 976 00:36:12,269 --> 00:36:14,690 trying to shift towards is this idea of 977 00:36:14,954 --> 00:36:15,855 not being afraid. 978 00:36:16,474 --> 00:36:17,454 The Trump administration 979 00:36:18,474 --> 00:36:20,015 and the MAGA movement 980 00:36:20,315 --> 00:36:21,135 has really 981 00:36:22,075 --> 00:36:22,575 capitalized 982 00:36:23,114 --> 00:36:25,515 on in this in the first, whatever, eighty 983 00:36:25,515 --> 00:36:26,575 days of this presidency 984 00:36:27,434 --> 00:36:28,655 on people's fear. 985 00:36:29,059 --> 00:36:31,940 And it's paralyzing. Things are moving at a 986 00:36:31,940 --> 00:36:34,260 million miles an hour. But I think for 987 00:36:34,260 --> 00:36:35,860 me, I felt less scared about it, but 988 00:36:35,860 --> 00:36:38,179 really just reminding people that there's a power 989 00:36:38,179 --> 00:36:40,019 in showing up and talking back, and people 990 00:36:40,019 --> 00:36:40,840 are doing it. 991 00:36:42,284 --> 00:36:44,464 And I think more than ever, 992 00:36:44,844 --> 00:36:47,324 we have to be reminded that we cannot 993 00:36:47,324 --> 00:36:48,224 give these, 994 00:36:49,005 --> 00:36:51,105 assholes our fear. You can 995 00:36:51,405 --> 00:36:53,105 you can, you can, 996 00:36:53,644 --> 00:36:54,844 bleep that if you want. But, 997 00:36:57,349 --> 00:36:59,210 the the thing is is that I always 998 00:36:59,670 --> 00:37:00,809 the this administration 999 00:37:01,430 --> 00:37:02,650 has is authoritarian 1000 00:37:03,110 --> 00:37:05,610 for all respects. But the thing about authoritarians 1001 00:37:05,989 --> 00:37:08,309 is that their view of the world is 1002 00:37:08,309 --> 00:37:09,050 so narrow, 1003 00:37:09,474 --> 00:37:11,875 and their imagination of what's possible is so 1004 00:37:11,875 --> 00:37:12,375 narrow, 1005 00:37:12,994 --> 00:37:15,574 and what they know is very narrow. And 1006 00:37:15,795 --> 00:37:17,954 the thing is is that if you have 1007 00:37:17,954 --> 00:37:19,635 some sense of the world, some sense of 1008 00:37:19,635 --> 00:37:21,734 embracing complexity, some sense of 1009 00:37:22,670 --> 00:37:24,430 a deeper understanding of the world around us. 1010 00:37:24,430 --> 00:37:26,269 You we can run circles around these guys. 1011 00:37:26,269 --> 00:37:27,090 And, really, 1012 00:37:27,950 --> 00:37:29,390 you know, they're trying to keep us in 1013 00:37:29,390 --> 00:37:30,989 this place of fear because if we're in 1014 00:37:30,989 --> 00:37:33,010 a place of fear, we can't think strategically. 1015 00:37:33,950 --> 00:37:34,450 And 1016 00:37:34,954 --> 00:37:37,114 increasingly, I've been trying to remind folks in 1017 00:37:37,114 --> 00:37:38,795 my circle of, like, yep. They're gonna do 1018 00:37:38,795 --> 00:37:40,635 some terrible things, and everything that you love 1019 00:37:40,635 --> 00:37:42,315 or care about is probably gonna be impacted 1020 00:37:42,315 --> 00:37:43,614 in some negative way. 1021 00:37:44,635 --> 00:37:46,954 But they're the ones that have to keep 1022 00:37:46,954 --> 00:37:49,195 the momentum, and they're the ones that have 1023 00:37:49,195 --> 00:37:49,355 to, 1024 00:37:50,739 --> 00:37:52,900 basically try to keep this ball moving forward. 1025 00:37:52,900 --> 00:37:55,000 And increasingly, as the days go on, 1026 00:37:55,460 --> 00:37:57,720 this is gonna be much much harder than 1027 00:37:58,019 --> 00:37:59,780 it than it has been for them in 1028 00:37:59,780 --> 00:38:01,400 the past few months. And 1029 00:38:02,019 --> 00:38:04,464 now when I start looking at, you know, 1030 00:38:04,464 --> 00:38:06,724 the political landscape and what's out there, 1031 00:38:08,304 --> 00:38:10,625 you know, there's a lot of local races 1032 00:38:10,625 --> 00:38:11,684 and local elections 1033 00:38:12,065 --> 00:38:14,224 that have a lot of impact and, you 1034 00:38:14,224 --> 00:38:16,864 know, kind of detouring from things like public 1035 00:38:16,864 --> 00:38:17,764 lands, like, 1036 00:38:18,069 --> 00:38:19,750 housing and cost of living are a real 1037 00:38:19,750 --> 00:38:22,089 thing. And when we look at blue states, 1038 00:38:22,869 --> 00:38:24,889 blue states do some of the worst jobs 1039 00:38:24,949 --> 00:38:25,349 at, 1040 00:38:26,309 --> 00:38:28,089 of of of affordability, 1041 00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:32,250 and housing cost and housing availability. 1042 00:38:32,885 --> 00:38:34,405 And I think, really, like, if we look 1043 00:38:34,405 --> 00:38:36,405 at Blue States, like, we gotta get our 1044 00:38:36,405 --> 00:38:37,864 we gotta get our act together, 1045 00:38:40,244 --> 00:38:42,164 and really do these things and meet people 1046 00:38:42,164 --> 00:38:43,784 where they're at. Because if if 1047 00:38:44,085 --> 00:38:45,925 we don't take care of people at their 1048 00:38:45,925 --> 00:38:47,944 base level of housing, of 1049 00:38:48,339 --> 00:38:50,900 cost of living concerns. Why you know, people 1050 00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:52,339 aren't gonna have the bandwidth to show up 1051 00:38:52,339 --> 00:38:53,800 for these things, like, public lands. 1052 00:38:54,179 --> 00:38:54,679 And, 1053 00:38:55,219 --> 00:38:56,739 you know, when we look at the states 1054 00:38:56,739 --> 00:38:59,000 that are threatened, I mean, Arizona, New Mexico, 1055 00:38:59,219 --> 00:39:00,704 Colorado, Utah, I mean, 1056 00:39:01,265 --> 00:39:02,164 it's it's 1057 00:39:03,025 --> 00:39:04,545 it's gonna be a challenge, and I think 1058 00:39:04,545 --> 00:39:06,065 there's gonna have to be multiple fronts that 1059 00:39:06,065 --> 00:39:07,184 we're gonna have to fight it on, and 1060 00:39:07,184 --> 00:39:09,265 there's gonna be some setbacks that, you know, 1061 00:39:09,265 --> 00:39:11,184 are gonna take decades to undo. But I 1062 00:39:11,184 --> 00:39:11,684 think 1063 00:39:12,065 --> 00:39:12,565 this 1064 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:14,400 is a crisis that we can't let to 1065 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:15,940 go to waste. And 1066 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,559 we really have to be forward leaning and 1067 00:39:18,559 --> 00:39:20,420 imagining a new future. And 1068 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,039 I've been increasingly trying to move into that 1069 00:39:23,039 --> 00:39:23,859 world of, 1070 00:39:26,079 --> 00:39:27,460 yeah, just thinking about 1071 00:39:27,974 --> 00:39:30,215 how better the future could be because the 1072 00:39:30,215 --> 00:39:33,095 current administration and this current political environment is 1073 00:39:33,095 --> 00:39:33,595 just 1074 00:39:33,974 --> 00:39:36,215 forcing us into this mindset of scarcity. If 1075 00:39:36,215 --> 00:39:37,275 this person gets 1076 00:39:37,974 --> 00:39:39,655 this, that means I get less of that. 1077 00:39:39,655 --> 00:39:41,494 Right? And that is the worst way for 1078 00:39:41,494 --> 00:39:43,619 us to live. And I think we can't 1079 00:39:43,619 --> 00:39:44,679 build a co a 1080 00:39:44,980 --> 00:39:45,880 cohesive coalition 1081 00:39:46,739 --> 00:39:48,980 in left leaning spaces if we continue to 1082 00:39:48,980 --> 00:39:50,119 operate in that mindset. 1083 00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:52,359 Yeah. Yeah. That's such 1084 00:39:52,659 --> 00:39:54,119 that is so resonant. 1085 00:39:55,235 --> 00:39:56,914 We've been talking a lot about the housing 1086 00:39:56,914 --> 00:39:58,135 and the this 1087 00:39:58,914 --> 00:40:01,554 sort of plan that the Trump administration has 1088 00:40:01,554 --> 00:40:03,715 floated to to take public land and make 1089 00:40:03,715 --> 00:40:05,574 it make housing on it. And it's 1090 00:40:05,875 --> 00:40:08,034 like, we can't Yeah. We can't just be 1091 00:40:08,034 --> 00:40:09,875 saying no to everything all the time. We 1092 00:40:09,875 --> 00:40:11,750 have to come to the table with solutions, 1093 00:40:13,250 --> 00:40:15,349 that work for us. And, you know, so 1094 00:40:15,969 --> 00:40:18,369 same with NEPA, same with housing. It's same 1095 00:40:18,369 --> 00:40:20,849 with water shortages and drought. It's like we 1096 00:40:20,849 --> 00:40:23,170 have to be coming to the table with 1097 00:40:23,170 --> 00:40:23,670 solutions 1098 00:40:24,994 --> 00:40:27,474 and say and saying do this. We can't 1099 00:40:27,474 --> 00:40:29,795 always just be saying, no. No. No. Don't 1100 00:40:29,795 --> 00:40:31,655 do that. Don't do this. Don't do this. 1101 00:40:32,035 --> 00:40:33,574 So I think you're onto something. 1102 00:40:36,275 --> 00:40:39,175 Alright. Well, we'll leave it there. Len Nesseffer, 1103 00:40:39,315 --> 00:40:41,960 CEO and founder of Natives Outdoors, thank you 1104 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:43,340 so much for being with us. 1105 00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:45,019 Yeah. Thanks so much. 1106 00:40:54,155 --> 00:40:56,315 Alright. Well, that is it for us. Take 1107 00:40:56,315 --> 00:40:58,235 a look in the show notes, for a 1108 00:40:58,235 --> 00:41:00,574 link on how to follow the upcoming theatrical 1109 00:41:00,795 --> 00:41:03,594 release of the American Southwest so you can 1110 00:41:03,594 --> 00:41:06,349 go see it at the movies sometime later 1111 00:41:06,349 --> 00:41:08,670 this year. And as always, we welcome your 1112 00:41:08,670 --> 00:41:10,289 feedback. We welcome your questions. 1113 00:41:10,670 --> 00:41:15,010 Drop those over to podcast at westernpriorities.org 1114 00:41:15,230 --> 00:41:17,550 and find us on all the social media 1115 00:41:17,550 --> 00:41:20,405 platforms. Go follow us. TikTok, Instagram, you name 1116 00:41:20,405 --> 00:41:22,905 it, wherever you are. We're probably there too. 1117 00:41:23,364 --> 00:41:25,445 Thanks again to Len for his time today, 1118 00:41:25,445 --> 00:41:27,864 and thank you for listening to the landscape.