1 00:00:07,679 --> 00:00:10,099 Welcome to the landscape, your show about America's 2 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:12,559 parks and public lands. I'm Erin Weiss with 3 00:00:12,559 --> 00:00:15,064 the Center for Western Priorities in Denver. And 4 00:00:15,064 --> 00:00:17,324 I'm Kate Gretzinger in Salt Lake City. 5 00:00:17,625 --> 00:00:19,564 Today on the pod, we've got two discussions 6 00:00:19,704 --> 00:00:22,844 about recent executive orders that affect public lands. 7 00:00:23,144 --> 00:00:25,384 The first covers Trump's recent EO aimed at 8 00:00:25,384 --> 00:00:28,265 increasing mining on BLM lands, and the second 9 00:00:28,265 --> 00:00:30,149 is about an EO aimed at ramping up 10 00:00:30,149 --> 00:00:31,849 logging in our national forests. 11 00:00:32,229 --> 00:00:33,590 We'll get to those in a sec, but 12 00:00:33,590 --> 00:00:34,649 first, the news. 13 00:00:35,429 --> 00:00:37,770 Well, the big news today is that lawmakers 14 00:00:37,829 --> 00:00:41,030 in Congress are talking openly about selling off 15 00:00:41,030 --> 00:00:43,695 America's public lands to try to pay for 16 00:00:43,695 --> 00:00:45,554 a massive budget reconciliation 17 00:00:45,934 --> 00:00:49,934 bill that would advance president Trump's massive spending 18 00:00:49,934 --> 00:00:51,234 and tax cut plan. 19 00:00:51,695 --> 00:00:52,914 Now this isn't necessarily 20 00:00:53,375 --> 00:00:55,454 new. Earlier this year, the House Ways and 21 00:00:55,454 --> 00:00:56,754 Means Committee Republicans 22 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,280 released a list of possible cuts and revenue 23 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:01,500 raisers for reconciliation. 24 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,000 Their aim is to both cut taxes and 25 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,719 ramp up border security by throwing more money 26 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:10,280 at the border, so federal land sales were 27 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:11,260 on that list. 28 00:01:11,715 --> 00:01:14,194 The house rules package that was adopted in 29 00:01:14,194 --> 00:01:14,694 January 30 00:01:15,394 --> 00:01:17,575 waived budget offset requirements 31 00:01:17,875 --> 00:01:21,075 for selling or giving away public lands. In 32 00:01:21,075 --> 00:01:23,394 other words, it wouldn't count as a loss 33 00:01:23,394 --> 00:01:26,689 of revenue even if taxpayers got ripped off. 34 00:01:26,989 --> 00:01:28,829 Now Bruce Westerman, who is the chair of 35 00:01:28,829 --> 00:01:30,929 the House Natural Resources Committee, 36 00:01:31,229 --> 00:01:33,069 told E and E News this week that 37 00:01:33,069 --> 00:01:35,469 the land they are considering selling off would, 38 00:01:35,469 --> 00:01:37,869 quote, just be in areas where you can't 39 00:01:37,869 --> 00:01:39,994 get affordable housing like gateway 40 00:01:41,334 --> 00:01:43,814 communities. Now it's unclear how selling land at 41 00:01:43,814 --> 00:01:47,754 market rates, presumably in those expensive gateway communities, 42 00:01:48,295 --> 00:01:50,954 could in any way address affordable housing. 43 00:01:51,439 --> 00:01:54,480 This basically just sounds like Mike Lee's houses 44 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:56,640 act, which as we've talked out before on 45 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:57,380 this podcast, 46 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,120 proposes selling off lands for trophy homes with 47 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:01,780 no guardrails 48 00:02:02,079 --> 00:02:02,579 anywhere 49 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:03,620 for affordability. 50 00:02:04,799 --> 00:02:05,299 Now 51 00:02:05,625 --> 00:02:08,604 this is exposing some rifts within the Republican 52 00:02:08,665 --> 00:02:12,284 party. That includes senator Steve Daines and representative 53 00:02:12,425 --> 00:02:14,365 Brian Zinke, both from Montana, 54 00:02:14,665 --> 00:02:16,585 who are saying they will not support a 55 00:02:16,585 --> 00:02:19,165 bill that includes a public lands sell off. 56 00:02:19,540 --> 00:02:22,680 Senator Martin Heinrich of New Mexico also emphatic 57 00:02:22,819 --> 00:02:26,260 about his opposition to including public land sales 58 00:02:26,260 --> 00:02:27,240 in any reconciliation 59 00:02:27,620 --> 00:02:30,740 bill. Of course, senator Heinrich somewhat less relevant 60 00:02:30,740 --> 00:02:31,639 to that conversation 61 00:02:31,965 --> 00:02:34,205 since the whole point of a reconciliation bill 62 00:02:34,205 --> 00:02:36,044 is that you can pass it with just 63 00:02:36,044 --> 00:02:36,944 50 votes. 64 00:02:37,245 --> 00:02:39,504 Democrats don't need to be involved. 65 00:02:39,965 --> 00:02:41,724 We will, of course, track all of this 66 00:02:41,724 --> 00:02:43,584 closely and keep you updated. 67 00:02:47,009 --> 00:02:49,650 Our guest today is Mitch Friedman. He's the 68 00:02:49,650 --> 00:02:51,909 founder and executive director of Conservation 69 00:02:52,209 --> 00:02:52,709 Northwest. 70 00:02:53,250 --> 00:02:55,989 His group works to connect and restore wildlands 71 00:02:56,049 --> 00:02:58,704 and wildlife from the Washington Coast to the 72 00:02:58,704 --> 00:03:01,344 British Columbia Rockies. Mitch, thank you very much 73 00:03:01,344 --> 00:03:03,104 for being on the pod. Thanks for having 74 00:03:03,104 --> 00:03:03,764 me here. 75 00:03:04,544 --> 00:03:07,025 So there is a lot going on with 76 00:03:07,025 --> 00:03:09,844 our national forests right now from potentially 77 00:03:10,144 --> 00:03:13,349 illegal forest service personnel cuts that may be 78 00:03:13,349 --> 00:03:13,849 getting 79 00:03:15,349 --> 00:03:15,849 uncut 80 00:03:16,469 --> 00:03:20,090 to executive and legislative efforts to fast track 81 00:03:20,150 --> 00:03:22,650 logging and clear cuts in our national forests. 82 00:03:23,110 --> 00:03:25,189 We're gonna try and touch on all of 83 00:03:25,189 --> 00:03:26,870 this. Hopefully, you can connect some of the 84 00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:30,014 dots for us. I wanna start with president 85 00:03:30,014 --> 00:03:32,835 Trump's executive order from March 1. 86 00:03:33,215 --> 00:03:34,754 It calls for, quote, 87 00:03:35,294 --> 00:03:38,514 immediate expansion of American timber production. 88 00:03:39,055 --> 00:03:40,835 What is in that order? 89 00:03:41,610 --> 00:03:43,069 Well, it's a clear indication 90 00:03:43,610 --> 00:03:45,550 of the president's intentions. 91 00:03:46,889 --> 00:03:47,629 It directs 92 00:03:48,169 --> 00:03:49,870 the agencies, the departments 93 00:03:50,569 --> 00:03:51,629 to come back 94 00:03:52,409 --> 00:03:53,469 in certain timelines 95 00:03:53,770 --> 00:03:56,564 starting within a month and and drawing out 96 00:03:56,805 --> 00:03:58,344 over the next several months 97 00:03:58,885 --> 00:03:59,385 with 98 00:04:00,324 --> 00:04:00,824 proposals 99 00:04:01,444 --> 00:04:02,585 for new rulemaking 100 00:04:03,604 --> 00:04:04,104 to 101 00:04:04,885 --> 00:04:05,385 shortcut 102 00:04:06,324 --> 00:04:07,385 federal process. 103 00:04:08,885 --> 00:04:10,665 So the executive order 104 00:04:11,060 --> 00:04:13,080 itself doesn't do anything 105 00:04:13,460 --> 00:04:13,960 except 106 00:04:15,139 --> 00:04:16,759 kick start these potential 107 00:04:17,220 --> 00:04:18,920 future process tweaks. 108 00:04:19,540 --> 00:04:22,180 So we know what the president wants to 109 00:04:22,180 --> 00:04:23,720 do. The question is 110 00:04:24,194 --> 00:04:24,694 how 111 00:04:25,074 --> 00:04:26,534 does he get there? 112 00:04:27,154 --> 00:04:28,995 Since it sounds like there's not much using 113 00:04:28,995 --> 00:04:30,694 executive authority alone, 114 00:04:31,634 --> 00:04:33,794 he can use to speed up logging. Is 115 00:04:33,794 --> 00:04:35,714 that that fair summary of where we're at 116 00:04:35,714 --> 00:04:36,375 right now? 117 00:04:37,209 --> 00:04:38,269 A fair summary, 118 00:04:38,970 --> 00:04:39,949 there are only 119 00:04:40,410 --> 00:04:40,910 two 120 00:04:42,009 --> 00:04:42,509 buckets 121 00:04:43,689 --> 00:04:46,350 touched on in the executive order. 122 00:04:46,889 --> 00:04:48,350 One is environmental 123 00:04:49,384 --> 00:04:52,525 policy, so environmental analysis under the National Environmental 124 00:04:52,665 --> 00:04:55,384 Policy Act. The other is the endangered species 125 00:04:55,384 --> 00:04:55,884 act, 126 00:04:56,665 --> 00:04:59,465 but there's no mention in the executive order 127 00:04:59,465 --> 00:05:02,045 about the National Forest Management Act. 128 00:05:03,550 --> 00:05:06,669 So the president may intend to generate more 129 00:05:06,669 --> 00:05:09,149 logs, but how he's gonna get there from 130 00:05:09,149 --> 00:05:09,970 here is 131 00:05:10,350 --> 00:05:11,410 altogether unclear. 132 00:05:13,069 --> 00:05:15,310 I wanna go back to something we've touched 133 00:05:15,310 --> 00:05:17,009 on this podcast a couple times 134 00:05:17,585 --> 00:05:19,444 last year, which was the Northwest 135 00:05:19,745 --> 00:05:20,645 Forest Plan. 136 00:05:21,504 --> 00:05:23,745 Amending that plan, that is something that the 137 00:05:23,745 --> 00:05:24,564 Biden administration 138 00:05:25,025 --> 00:05:28,564 was working on. They released an environmental review 139 00:05:28,625 --> 00:05:32,339 last November, but then never finalized it. So 140 00:05:32,339 --> 00:05:34,180 what is going on with the Northwest Forest 141 00:05:34,180 --> 00:05:36,180 Plan, and how does that fit in to 142 00:05:36,180 --> 00:05:38,979 the extent we know with what president Trump 143 00:05:38,979 --> 00:05:41,959 and his cabinet are doing now? The Northwest 144 00:05:42,019 --> 00:05:42,919 Forest Plan 145 00:05:43,860 --> 00:05:46,279 was adopted under president Clinton 146 00:05:47,074 --> 00:05:49,555 in the mid nineties whose reaction to the 147 00:05:49,555 --> 00:05:51,895 spotted owl and the ancient forest wars, 148 00:05:53,634 --> 00:05:55,014 and it's unique. 149 00:05:55,955 --> 00:05:59,074 The Northwest forest plan is the only plan 150 00:05:59,074 --> 00:06:00,855 in the country that aggregates 151 00:06:01,370 --> 00:06:03,310 a bunch of different national forests. 152 00:06:03,610 --> 00:06:05,949 So it's a regional plan, and it's 153 00:06:06,490 --> 00:06:07,470 it's a remarkable 154 00:06:08,490 --> 00:06:11,629 you know, it's probably the most and best 155 00:06:12,330 --> 00:06:15,550 science driven land management plan in the world. 156 00:06:16,995 --> 00:06:19,975 So the Biden administration set up a process 157 00:06:20,194 --> 00:06:22,055 to update it, to amend it. 158 00:06:23,955 --> 00:06:25,975 We don't know what the Trump administration 159 00:06:26,675 --> 00:06:28,995 will do in terms of that amendment process. 160 00:06:28,995 --> 00:06:30,615 So I'll take these comments, and 161 00:06:31,269 --> 00:06:33,189 I guess we'll be hearing from them in 162 00:06:33,189 --> 00:06:34,169 the months ahead. 163 00:06:35,750 --> 00:06:37,769 Alright. So a lot of unknowns 164 00:06:38,310 --> 00:06:41,529 on the agency front and on the 165 00:06:42,629 --> 00:06:45,555 on, I guess, the the administrative front 166 00:06:45,954 --> 00:06:47,254 and and the White House. 167 00:06:48,194 --> 00:06:50,914 At the same time, you have Congress and 168 00:06:50,914 --> 00:06:54,615 a bill called the Fix Our Forests Act. 169 00:06:54,834 --> 00:06:56,995 It's moving through Congress with some amount of 170 00:06:56,995 --> 00:06:57,495 bipartisan 171 00:06:57,875 --> 00:07:00,454 support. It looks like it may pass. 172 00:07:01,589 --> 00:07:04,069 What what's the deal with that bill? How 173 00:07:04,069 --> 00:07:06,550 does it align with what president Trump is 174 00:07:06,550 --> 00:07:08,089 trying to do or not align? 175 00:07:08,709 --> 00:07:10,329 Well, president Trump, 176 00:07:11,349 --> 00:07:14,009 his executive orders bump up against 177 00:07:15,285 --> 00:07:16,504 statutory limitations. 178 00:07:17,764 --> 00:07:19,544 Executive orders cannot 179 00:07:20,964 --> 00:07:23,785 roll back what Congress has passed in statute, 180 00:07:24,245 --> 00:07:25,464 but Congress can. 181 00:07:26,485 --> 00:07:28,185 And the fix our forests 182 00:07:28,644 --> 00:07:29,144 act 183 00:07:30,389 --> 00:07:33,910 is an attempt by congressional leaders to 184 00:07:34,470 --> 00:07:36,729 well, I would I would say to generate 185 00:07:36,789 --> 00:07:37,610 more logging 186 00:07:38,389 --> 00:07:39,850 that directs the agencies 187 00:07:40,389 --> 00:07:41,289 to organize 188 00:07:43,965 --> 00:07:44,944 fire vulnerable 189 00:07:45,245 --> 00:07:47,585 national forest by fire sheds. 190 00:07:49,085 --> 00:07:49,904 And within 191 00:07:50,285 --> 00:07:51,824 priority fire sheds, 192 00:07:52,444 --> 00:07:54,145 there would be less environmental 193 00:07:54,525 --> 00:07:56,145 process and more, 194 00:07:58,389 --> 00:07:59,689 oh, I guess, support 195 00:08:00,069 --> 00:08:01,209 agency support 196 00:08:01,990 --> 00:08:05,449 to try to get up to large scale 197 00:08:05,990 --> 00:08:07,289 projects to reduce 198 00:08:08,229 --> 00:08:09,225 wildfire risk. 199 00:08:09,785 --> 00:08:10,524 For instance, 200 00:08:11,064 --> 00:08:13,324 within a designated fire shed, 201 00:08:14,264 --> 00:08:15,884 you could use a categorical 202 00:08:16,264 --> 00:08:18,925 exclusion, which is a short form for environmental 203 00:08:19,064 --> 00:08:19,564 analysis 204 00:08:20,345 --> 00:08:23,245 on a project of up to 10,000 acres. 205 00:08:23,949 --> 00:08:26,990 And that's massive. 10,000 acres, that's what about 206 00:08:26,990 --> 00:08:28,529 15 square miles 207 00:08:29,230 --> 00:08:30,610 within which you 208 00:08:31,550 --> 00:08:32,050 could 209 00:08:32,669 --> 00:08:35,809 do prescribed burning. You could remove trees. 210 00:08:36,615 --> 00:08:39,254 There aren't even sideboards for whether you could 211 00:08:39,254 --> 00:08:41,195 remove old trees or snags. 212 00:08:41,654 --> 00:08:42,794 You could put in 213 00:08:43,335 --> 00:08:45,894 so called fuel breaks or fire breaks, which 214 00:08:45,894 --> 00:08:46,634 are controversial. 215 00:08:47,415 --> 00:08:49,559 So it's a it's a big deal, the 216 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,040 Fix Our Force Act. It's passed the house. 217 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,440 It's in the senate now. It almost certainly 218 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:55,179 will pass. 219 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,840 There's a bipartisan team of four senators working 220 00:08:58,840 --> 00:08:59,580 on it. 221 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,674 Conservation groups are giving input through the democratic 222 00:09:03,815 --> 00:09:06,054 side to try to, you know, at at 223 00:09:06,054 --> 00:09:07,355 least make some improvements. 224 00:09:10,375 --> 00:09:12,774 I'll get subjective here for a second. You 225 00:09:12,774 --> 00:09:14,294 know, I've been doing this for a long 226 00:09:14,294 --> 00:09:16,774 time, and I remember when, you know, George 227 00:09:16,774 --> 00:09:19,169 w Bush was president and his 228 00:09:19,949 --> 00:09:22,269 the guy who ran his forest service from 229 00:09:22,269 --> 00:09:24,750 Department of Agriculture was an old timber industry 230 00:09:24,750 --> 00:09:27,169 lobbyist who was our nemesis, Mark Ray. 231 00:09:27,549 --> 00:09:29,309 That guy was brilliant, and he knew the 232 00:09:29,309 --> 00:09:30,644 law inside and out. 233 00:09:31,045 --> 00:09:33,465 And he got a statute passed by Congress 234 00:09:33,524 --> 00:09:35,285 that we were all freaked out about at 235 00:09:35,285 --> 00:09:35,945 the time. 236 00:09:36,804 --> 00:09:38,644 But in the end, it didn't really change 237 00:09:38,644 --> 00:09:40,745 all that much. And I suspect 238 00:09:41,365 --> 00:09:44,485 that everything we're talking about here, Aaron, the 239 00:09:44,485 --> 00:09:45,625 executive orders, 240 00:09:46,460 --> 00:09:48,940 the the act in congress, all of these 241 00:09:48,940 --> 00:09:49,440 things 242 00:09:49,980 --> 00:09:53,420 are not going to change as much on 243 00:09:53,420 --> 00:09:54,080 the ground 244 00:09:55,180 --> 00:09:57,360 as some of the staffing or funding 245 00:09:57,740 --> 00:09:59,519 issues that we might talk about. 246 00:10:00,335 --> 00:10:02,975 So yeah. So so why is that? Is 247 00:10:02,975 --> 00:10:05,934 that truly you need more people to do 248 00:10:05,934 --> 00:10:08,575 these timber sales and these management? Or or 249 00:10:08,575 --> 00:10:09,875 is it that without 250 00:10:10,415 --> 00:10:12,975 all those things, you can't follow the law 251 00:10:12,975 --> 00:10:15,139 that still exists, whether it's NEPA or the 252 00:10:15,139 --> 00:10:16,919 Endangered Species Act? Yeah. 253 00:10:17,700 --> 00:10:20,339 Where what's the gap between what's what Trump 254 00:10:20,339 --> 00:10:22,279 is trying to do or what previous 255 00:10:23,059 --> 00:10:25,459 secretaries or foresters have tried to do in 256 00:10:25,459 --> 00:10:28,659 terms of more logging versus what actually happens 257 00:10:28,659 --> 00:10:29,399 on the ground? 258 00:10:30,164 --> 00:10:32,585 I think that there is a secret 259 00:10:33,524 --> 00:10:36,565 answer to that question that's hidden inside a 260 00:10:36,565 --> 00:10:39,065 golden ring that's buried under the ocean. 261 00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:44,360 You know, as part of the bipartisan infrastructure 262 00:10:44,659 --> 00:10:46,039 law that passed 263 00:10:47,059 --> 00:10:48,120 three years ago, 264 00:10:49,299 --> 00:10:52,899 Congress gave the Forest Service literally billions of 265 00:10:52,899 --> 00:10:53,399 dollars. 266 00:10:54,544 --> 00:10:56,225 You know, 3,200,000,000.0 267 00:10:56,225 --> 00:10:58,544 for this and that plus another couple. I 268 00:10:58,544 --> 00:11:00,944 mean, through a ton of money at the 269 00:11:00,944 --> 00:11:01,444 agency. 270 00:11:03,184 --> 00:11:06,084 Last fall, so still under the Biden administration, 271 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,320 the forest service found that they were a 272 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:12,139 half billion dollars in the hole and 273 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,139 laid off a ton of seasonal workers. 274 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:19,500 You know, so this 275 00:11:20,424 --> 00:11:22,024 a a process we're in now of the 276 00:11:22,024 --> 00:11:25,004 forest service being gutted of personnel and capacity 277 00:11:25,704 --> 00:11:27,644 started even before Trump. 278 00:11:28,745 --> 00:11:31,485 And that's because the forest service 279 00:11:32,745 --> 00:11:33,644 is a mess. 280 00:11:34,949 --> 00:11:37,509 Alright. I'm gonna I'm gonna lay some cards 281 00:11:37,509 --> 00:11:40,250 on the table. I'm not a process guy. 282 00:11:40,549 --> 00:11:42,329 I don't believe that 283 00:11:42,709 --> 00:11:43,689 rigid NEPA, 284 00:11:44,629 --> 00:11:47,189 rigid environmental analysis is the way to get 285 00:11:47,189 --> 00:11:47,689 great 286 00:11:48,634 --> 00:11:51,774 environmental decisions or great government action. 287 00:11:52,715 --> 00:11:55,375 And I am an active management guy. 288 00:11:55,915 --> 00:11:57,595 You know, I started out as I'm one 289 00:11:57,595 --> 00:11:59,514 of the first tree climbers in the nineteen 290 00:11:59,514 --> 00:12:02,014 eighties. I was an Earth First organizer. I'm 291 00:12:02,250 --> 00:12:05,049 I'm a pro wild guy, but I've come 292 00:12:05,049 --> 00:12:08,350 to very much believe that good science based 293 00:12:08,570 --> 00:12:09,070 biodiversity 294 00:12:09,529 --> 00:12:10,029 driven 295 00:12:11,610 --> 00:12:14,190 outcomes on our federal lands and our forests 296 00:12:15,434 --> 00:12:17,855 requires active management in a lot of areas. 297 00:12:17,915 --> 00:12:19,054 So I want 298 00:12:19,595 --> 00:12:22,495 a lot more prescribed burning. I want 299 00:12:23,195 --> 00:12:24,335 good thoughtful 300 00:12:25,115 --> 00:12:28,735 forest management restoration projects that thin out 301 00:12:29,179 --> 00:12:32,620 small trees. I want rural communities to engage 302 00:12:32,620 --> 00:12:34,459 in these things and have jobs and the 303 00:12:34,459 --> 00:12:36,220 mills to be vibrant and the forest to 304 00:12:36,220 --> 00:12:37,360 be healthy. 305 00:12:38,860 --> 00:12:41,419 I cannot tell you how to get there 306 00:12:41,419 --> 00:12:43,884 from here. I want the forest service to 307 00:12:43,884 --> 00:12:46,764 be a great functional successful agency. We need 308 00:12:46,764 --> 00:12:47,504 it to be. 309 00:12:47,884 --> 00:12:50,764 But it is a mess, and pumping money 310 00:12:50,764 --> 00:12:51,904 in at what end 311 00:12:53,084 --> 00:12:55,504 does not mean logs or biodiversity 312 00:12:55,884 --> 00:12:58,860 or any other predictable outcome other than gridlock 313 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:00,220 pops up the other. 314 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,200 But I do think one can say that 315 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,259 gutting the agency 316 00:13:05,879 --> 00:13:07,580 isn't gonna fix any of that. 317 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:08,700 So 318 00:13:09,695 --> 00:13:11,875 it's not firing 7,000 foresters. 319 00:13:12,495 --> 00:13:14,274 It's not just throwing 320 00:13:14,735 --> 00:13:17,475 money at the agency without a plan. So 321 00:13:17,615 --> 00:13:19,875 if if you had a magic wand, 322 00:13:20,975 --> 00:13:23,315 what would what would you waive it at 323 00:13:23,375 --> 00:13:24,434 to get to 324 00:13:24,839 --> 00:13:26,940 more prescribed burns, to get to 325 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,879 thinning of the small stuff and not the 326 00:13:29,879 --> 00:13:30,620 old growth? 327 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,100 How how do you do that? 328 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:35,899 There are two poles in management. 329 00:13:36,759 --> 00:13:39,019 There's prescription and there's discretion. 330 00:13:41,205 --> 00:13:43,625 I think I used to be a prescription 331 00:13:43,845 --> 00:13:45,065 guy that congress 332 00:13:45,684 --> 00:13:46,184 and 333 00:13:46,644 --> 00:13:47,945 and people like me 334 00:13:48,565 --> 00:13:51,045 through the courts or whatever should tie the 335 00:13:51,045 --> 00:13:52,884 hands of the agencies so that they should 336 00:13:52,884 --> 00:13:54,504 never do anything bad. 337 00:13:55,009 --> 00:13:56,610 And the outcome of that is that they 338 00:13:56,610 --> 00:13:58,950 just don't do very much good either. 339 00:13:59,330 --> 00:14:00,470 They become demoralized 340 00:14:01,809 --> 00:14:02,549 and ineffectual 341 00:14:03,009 --> 00:14:04,309 and process driven. 342 00:14:05,490 --> 00:14:06,950 On the other end is discretion. 343 00:14:07,809 --> 00:14:08,470 You know, 344 00:14:08,784 --> 00:14:10,705 in the early days of the forest service 345 00:14:10,705 --> 00:14:13,345 and through, I'd say, until about the mid 346 00:14:13,345 --> 00:14:14,804 nineteen eighties when, 347 00:14:15,184 --> 00:14:17,504 you know, the battle over ancient forest really 348 00:14:17,504 --> 00:14:18,404 changed things, 349 00:14:19,664 --> 00:14:21,570 each national forest, each 350 00:14:22,049 --> 00:14:25,649 ranger district, the subunits of each national forest, 351 00:14:25,649 --> 00:14:26,950 each district ranger 352 00:14:27,490 --> 00:14:30,049 had a lot of authority and discretion, and 353 00:14:30,049 --> 00:14:31,029 these were people 354 00:14:31,649 --> 00:14:33,490 who who could get stuff done on the 355 00:14:33,490 --> 00:14:36,389 ground. They knew their valleys, their districts, 356 00:14:39,065 --> 00:14:41,004 and they were in touch with their communities, 357 00:14:42,904 --> 00:14:45,245 and there was an efficiency to that. 358 00:14:45,865 --> 00:14:47,785 But they got taken over by the timber 359 00:14:47,785 --> 00:14:48,285 industry. 360 00:14:48,825 --> 00:14:51,304 They made a mess. They cut too much, 361 00:14:51,304 --> 00:14:52,769 and we whacked them back. 362 00:14:53,809 --> 00:14:56,450 And now the forest service lacks for an 363 00:14:56,450 --> 00:14:56,950 identity 364 00:14:57,730 --> 00:14:58,870 or a clear mandate. 365 00:14:59,970 --> 00:15:00,790 They're demoralized. 366 00:15:02,929 --> 00:15:04,870 If I were in charge, 367 00:15:05,250 --> 00:15:06,550 if I were the chief, 368 00:15:07,834 --> 00:15:08,495 I would 369 00:15:09,514 --> 00:15:11,595 boy. There would be a lot to do. 370 00:15:11,595 --> 00:15:13,774 But what you aspire to 371 00:15:15,194 --> 00:15:18,554 is good government. It cannot be our goal 372 00:15:18,554 --> 00:15:21,774 as activists to have bad dysfunctional government. 373 00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:24,320 So we want an agency 374 00:15:25,019 --> 00:15:25,519 that 375 00:15:25,980 --> 00:15:28,940 that has high morale and high capacity and 376 00:15:28,940 --> 00:15:29,759 high functionality, 377 00:15:30,460 --> 00:15:32,480 but we wanted to have those things 378 00:15:32,860 --> 00:15:33,919 for biodiversity, 379 00:15:34,835 --> 00:15:36,375 for quality management, 380 00:15:36,995 --> 00:15:39,174 not for industry driven 381 00:15:39,875 --> 00:15:40,774 get the cutout. 382 00:15:42,035 --> 00:15:43,894 I wanna get back to 383 00:15:45,075 --> 00:15:47,429 the Trump administration and the Trump EOs, 384 00:15:49,250 --> 00:15:51,110 because this does tie into 385 00:15:51,570 --> 00:15:54,290 the fights over the ancient forests or the 386 00:15:54,290 --> 00:15:56,710 timber wars or whatever you wanna call it. 387 00:15:57,570 --> 00:15:58,070 And 388 00:15:59,170 --> 00:16:01,029 these executive orders and 389 00:16:01,514 --> 00:16:04,175 secretary Doug Burgum's secretary of the orders 390 00:16:05,355 --> 00:16:06,654 talk about regularly 391 00:16:07,274 --> 00:16:10,654 convening something called the God Squad. 392 00:16:11,595 --> 00:16:14,735 What is this committee? Why haven't we generally 393 00:16:15,035 --> 00:16:16,080 heard of it? 394 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:18,500 And what could it potentially 395 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,019 do here 396 00:16:20,639 --> 00:16:21,860 in light of 397 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,000 the Endangered Species Act, in light of the 398 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:26,660 these 399 00:16:28,894 --> 00:16:31,475 struggling, if not failing management policies? 400 00:16:32,894 --> 00:16:35,934 The Endangered Species Act is one of the 401 00:16:35,934 --> 00:16:37,154 clear and strongest 402 00:16:38,495 --> 00:16:41,049 and most remarkable laws perhaps in the in 403 00:16:41,049 --> 00:16:44,429 the world. Right? When it's working, it puts 404 00:16:44,570 --> 00:16:46,429 the needs of a rare species 405 00:16:46,889 --> 00:16:47,389 first. 406 00:16:48,970 --> 00:16:50,269 What the god squad 407 00:16:52,009 --> 00:16:54,970 allows, it's one section in in in the 408 00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:57,125 Endangered Species Act that 409 00:16:58,705 --> 00:16:59,684 gives a president 410 00:17:00,865 --> 00:17:03,605 the option of pulling together this committee 411 00:17:04,785 --> 00:17:06,244 to consider overriding 412 00:17:07,744 --> 00:17:08,404 the prohibitions 413 00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:13,089 where there's a public interest that should or 414 00:17:13,089 --> 00:17:13,990 may overwhelm 415 00:17:14,929 --> 00:17:17,750 the public interest in this protected species. 416 00:17:18,529 --> 00:17:20,869 And the god squad has only been convened 417 00:17:21,009 --> 00:17:21,829 three times 418 00:17:22,210 --> 00:17:24,944 in the, what, fifty years or so of 419 00:17:25,105 --> 00:17:27,524 that the Endangered Species Act has been around. 420 00:17:29,184 --> 00:17:30,404 And so what 421 00:17:31,024 --> 00:17:34,884 president Trump has proposed in this executive order 422 00:17:35,024 --> 00:17:35,764 is novel. 423 00:17:36,784 --> 00:17:38,539 It's more of a proactive 424 00:17:39,079 --> 00:17:40,859 convening of the god squad. 425 00:17:41,559 --> 00:17:43,980 In the statute, the god squad is reactive. 426 00:17:44,679 --> 00:17:46,839 You know, when when things are so held 427 00:17:46,839 --> 00:17:48,380 up by the needs of a species 428 00:17:48,919 --> 00:17:50,759 and it's a it's a real problem, the 429 00:17:50,759 --> 00:17:52,775 president can pull these folks together, and they 430 00:17:52,775 --> 00:17:54,315 can figure out what to do about 431 00:17:54,855 --> 00:17:57,414 it. The executive order takes the opposite approach. 432 00:17:57,414 --> 00:17:59,894 It says, let's get the grad squad together 433 00:17:59,894 --> 00:18:01,835 to figure out how to screw species. 434 00:18:03,815 --> 00:18:05,815 I tend to think that whatever they would 435 00:18:05,815 --> 00:18:06,634 come up with 436 00:18:07,660 --> 00:18:09,039 would not pass 437 00:18:09,740 --> 00:18:10,240 muster 438 00:18:10,619 --> 00:18:12,700 of judicial review. I think the courts would 439 00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:14,799 block it, but I'm not a lawyer. 440 00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:18,220 I mean, would would that be potentially just 441 00:18:18,220 --> 00:18:21,259 saying, okay. We've tried to save this the 442 00:18:21,259 --> 00:18:22,640 northern spotted owl. 443 00:18:23,044 --> 00:18:24,585 We've failed. Therefore, 444 00:18:25,125 --> 00:18:26,964 we're gonna just let the spotted owl go 445 00:18:26,964 --> 00:18:28,984 extinct. I mean, is that the the 446 00:18:29,605 --> 00:18:31,464 lengths to which they could go potentially? 447 00:18:32,164 --> 00:18:34,505 What drives the Northwest Forest Plan 448 00:18:35,285 --> 00:18:37,589 isn't the Endangered Species Act, but the National 449 00:18:37,589 --> 00:18:38,650 Forest Management 450 00:18:40,309 --> 00:18:43,109 Act. The endangered species act says spotted owl 451 00:18:43,109 --> 00:18:45,509 shouldn't go extinct, and it describes what should 452 00:18:45,509 --> 00:18:48,250 happen for that. The National Forest Management 453 00:18:48,630 --> 00:18:49,450 Act requires 454 00:18:50,555 --> 00:18:51,454 that the agency 455 00:18:52,315 --> 00:18:52,815 manage 456 00:18:53,355 --> 00:18:54,494 for all native 457 00:18:54,795 --> 00:18:57,454 and desired non native vertebrates to have viable 458 00:18:57,515 --> 00:18:58,015 populations. 459 00:18:59,674 --> 00:19:02,335 So you could the god squad could not 460 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:05,279 toss the Northwest forest plan because it still 461 00:19:05,279 --> 00:19:08,500 hangs by a National Forest Management Act frame. 462 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,839 Also, spotted owls are not the only listed 463 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:14,080 species in the landscape. There's a lot of 464 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:14,580 listed 465 00:19:15,855 --> 00:19:17,714 salmon and steelhead stocks 466 00:19:18,654 --> 00:19:20,355 and and other organisms. 467 00:19:20,654 --> 00:19:21,154 So 468 00:19:22,974 --> 00:19:24,974 I tend to think that that was a 469 00:19:24,974 --> 00:19:27,455 political move. You know, it's a sop to 470 00:19:27,455 --> 00:19:28,515 the timber industry. 471 00:19:29,630 --> 00:19:31,630 I don't think it's gonna have a lot 472 00:19:31,630 --> 00:19:32,289 of impact. 473 00:19:33,549 --> 00:19:35,710 I'm trying to think about how all of 474 00:19:35,710 --> 00:19:36,210 this 475 00:19:36,910 --> 00:19:39,309 comes together. Obviously, a lot of question marks 476 00:19:39,309 --> 00:19:41,470 here over these orders, a lot of question 477 00:19:41,470 --> 00:19:41,970 marks 478 00:19:42,545 --> 00:19:44,865 over the courts, a lot of question marks 479 00:19:44,865 --> 00:19:47,505 over how many people there are going to 480 00:19:47,505 --> 00:19:48,005 be 481 00:19:48,704 --> 00:19:50,325 working for the forest service. 482 00:19:51,825 --> 00:19:53,285 What's the path forward? 483 00:19:54,865 --> 00:19:57,204 Well, I've never seen anything like this. 484 00:19:57,670 --> 00:19:58,970 You know, when I came into 485 00:19:59,670 --> 00:20:02,250 activism under Reagan, and I lived through 486 00:20:03,109 --> 00:20:05,029 Bush and Trump won. And I know all 487 00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:05,930 of those situations, 488 00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:08,710 we always thought that there were people we 489 00:20:08,710 --> 00:20:10,070 could go talk to. I had a good 490 00:20:10,070 --> 00:20:12,230 relationship with Mark Ray. I met with him 491 00:20:12,230 --> 00:20:13,714 a a fair amount. 492 00:20:16,575 --> 00:20:18,835 And when Doug Burgum was appointed, 493 00:20:19,295 --> 00:20:21,454 you know, I talked to friends in the 494 00:20:21,454 --> 00:20:23,394 Dakotas. He had a good reputation. 495 00:20:23,775 --> 00:20:25,934 You know? Yeah. He's an oil and gas 496 00:20:25,934 --> 00:20:26,755 guy, but 497 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,059 seem to like wildlife. 498 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,720 I don't think any of that matters. I 499 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,640 think the way that we used to look 500 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:35,539 at these appointments 501 00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:40,980 has kind of been thrown out 502 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:42,660 by this more 503 00:20:44,095 --> 00:20:45,714 performative and polarized 504 00:20:50,174 --> 00:20:50,674 and 505 00:20:51,214 --> 00:20:51,714 legally 506 00:20:52,095 --> 00:20:52,994 highly questionable 507 00:20:53,775 --> 00:20:54,994 approach of Doge. 508 00:20:56,509 --> 00:20:58,669 I mean, we're starting to get towards a 509 00:20:58,669 --> 00:21:00,130 core question of 510 00:21:01,309 --> 00:21:03,889 what happens if you got the federal government. 511 00:21:04,029 --> 00:21:06,109 If there's nobody there to do the work, 512 00:21:06,109 --> 00:21:07,409 what work gets done? 513 00:21:08,525 --> 00:21:10,845 Whether that work is cutting trees or putting 514 00:21:10,845 --> 00:21:11,585 out fires 515 00:21:13,404 --> 00:21:16,944 or fixing trails and cleaning latrines at trailheads. 516 00:21:18,525 --> 00:21:20,065 I see I see big problems, 517 00:21:21,230 --> 00:21:22,990 and maybe that's the plan. I mean, there 518 00:21:22,990 --> 00:21:25,869 are people that take a conspiracy theory approach 519 00:21:25,869 --> 00:21:26,769 to this that, 520 00:21:28,430 --> 00:21:29,150 you know, if you've 521 00:21:30,430 --> 00:21:31,090 if you 522 00:21:31,950 --> 00:21:35,009 reduce the workforce of, say, the forest service 523 00:21:35,105 --> 00:21:37,105 to such a degree that they can't maintain 524 00:21:37,105 --> 00:21:37,765 the trails 525 00:21:38,305 --> 00:21:40,805 and can't answer their phones and they can't 526 00:21:42,464 --> 00:21:45,505 clear brush and small trees and they can't 527 00:21:45,505 --> 00:21:47,445 respond effectively to wildfire, 528 00:21:48,450 --> 00:21:50,769 then, you know, the public outcry you you 529 00:21:50,769 --> 00:21:52,929 break government, and then the public says, oh, 530 00:21:52,929 --> 00:21:53,429 government 531 00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:54,710 government's broken. 532 00:21:55,329 --> 00:21:57,329 Let's get rid of government. Okay. Let's sell 533 00:21:57,329 --> 00:21:58,470 the public lands. 534 00:21:59,409 --> 00:22:02,069 There are some people that draw those connections. 535 00:22:02,369 --> 00:22:05,115 I don't believe that. I don't think there's 536 00:22:05,115 --> 00:22:06,575 a master plan here. 537 00:22:06,955 --> 00:22:07,775 You think it's 538 00:22:08,234 --> 00:22:09,855 just chaos at this point? 539 00:22:10,394 --> 00:22:10,894 Yes. 540 00:22:11,755 --> 00:22:13,515 Well, I'm afraid this is one of those 541 00:22:13,515 --> 00:22:15,455 episodes where we're gonna leave 542 00:22:15,994 --> 00:22:16,494 with 543 00:22:17,190 --> 00:22:19,750 not many answers and a lot more questions. 544 00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:21,509 So I'll just say, Mitch, I hope we 545 00:22:21,509 --> 00:22:22,970 can get you back on here 546 00:22:23,349 --> 00:22:26,230 in in six months or nine months, and 547 00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:27,529 we will check back 548 00:22:27,990 --> 00:22:29,669 to see where things are at with our 549 00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:31,234 forests and what has happened 550 00:22:31,855 --> 00:22:34,255 with the God Squad and with these forest 551 00:22:34,255 --> 00:22:35,875 ranger cuts and everything else. 552 00:22:36,575 --> 00:22:37,394 Mitch Friedman 553 00:22:37,855 --> 00:22:40,674 is the founder and executive director of Conservation 554 00:22:40,894 --> 00:22:41,394 Northwest. 555 00:22:41,695 --> 00:22:42,515 Mitch, really 556 00:22:42,894 --> 00:22:44,195 appreciate your perspective 557 00:22:45,029 --> 00:22:47,210 as it's important for folks to hear. 558 00:22:47,670 --> 00:22:49,850 Thank you, Aaron. Appreciate being on. 559 00:22:53,190 --> 00:22:56,150 Our next guest today is Rachel Hamby. Rachel 560 00:22:56,150 --> 00:22:58,150 is our policy director here at the Center 561 00:22:58,150 --> 00:22:59,210 for Western Priorities. 562 00:22:59,644 --> 00:23:02,605 She's going to break down Trump's executive order 563 00:23:02,605 --> 00:23:05,565 on mining and critical minerals. Rachel, welcome back 564 00:23:05,565 --> 00:23:06,304 to the pod. 565 00:23:06,924 --> 00:23:08,625 Thanks. Always great to be on. 566 00:23:09,325 --> 00:23:11,565 So Trump issued this order back in mid 567 00:23:11,565 --> 00:23:13,884 March that's essentially an effort to ramp up 568 00:23:13,884 --> 00:23:16,660 mining on public lands. Can you summarize the 569 00:23:16,660 --> 00:23:18,420 different provisions in the order? I know it 570 00:23:18,420 --> 00:23:19,779 was sort of a grab bag, 571 00:23:20,180 --> 00:23:21,559 before we get into the details. 572 00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:24,740 Yeah. And even before we talk about this 573 00:23:24,740 --> 00:23:26,119 executive order specifically, 574 00:23:26,740 --> 00:23:29,940 let's talk about executive orders or EOs in 575 00:23:29,940 --> 00:23:30,440 general. 576 00:23:30,934 --> 00:23:32,775 The thing to remember about these is that 577 00:23:32,775 --> 00:23:34,075 they do not overwrite 578 00:23:34,535 --> 00:23:38,315 existing law. These are the president directing agencies 579 00:23:38,615 --> 00:23:39,914 to do different things. 580 00:23:40,375 --> 00:23:42,694 But if the president is directing an agency 581 00:23:42,694 --> 00:23:45,194 to do something that is illegal or unlawful, 582 00:23:45,829 --> 00:23:48,230 they're gonna run into problems, whether it's with 583 00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:50,869 congress or by getting sued and having to 584 00:23:50,869 --> 00:23:52,549 deal with it in the courts. So I 585 00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:54,869 think it's important to remember that these are, 586 00:23:55,109 --> 00:23:58,630 I've seen them described variously as glorified press 587 00:23:58,630 --> 00:23:59,769 releases or 588 00:24:00,105 --> 00:24:03,065 memos but on fancy stationery. So it's important 589 00:24:03,065 --> 00:24:05,144 to keep in mind that these are not 590 00:24:05,144 --> 00:24:06,444 writing new laws. 591 00:24:07,065 --> 00:24:09,545 However, we have also learned that whenever the 592 00:24:09,545 --> 00:24:10,365 Trump administration 593 00:24:10,664 --> 00:24:12,605 says that they're gonna try something, 594 00:24:12,984 --> 00:24:13,724 they're serious. 595 00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:16,600 So we can't just dismiss this or any 596 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:17,420 other EO. 597 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,720 We have to take them seriously. These are 598 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,960 real threats because they are saying clearly what 599 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,100 they want to do. 600 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:25,320 So with all of that in mind, let's 601 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,660 look at this executive order specifically. 602 00:24:28,955 --> 00:24:32,555 It is immediate measures to increase American mineral 603 00:24:32,555 --> 00:24:33,055 production. 604 00:24:34,394 --> 00:24:36,555 A big thing that this EO does at 605 00:24:36,555 --> 00:24:37,934 the outset is 606 00:24:38,555 --> 00:24:39,934 issue a new, 607 00:24:40,315 --> 00:24:43,615 very broad, very generous definition of minerals 608 00:24:44,849 --> 00:24:45,509 to include 609 00:24:45,970 --> 00:24:48,690 not only minerals that are already on the 610 00:24:48,690 --> 00:24:51,910 official critical minerals list, but also, 611 00:24:52,529 --> 00:24:54,369 as you said, a grab bag of other 612 00:24:54,369 --> 00:24:54,869 materials 613 00:24:55,170 --> 00:24:56,069 like uranium 614 00:24:56,769 --> 00:24:57,589 and gold 615 00:24:57,970 --> 00:24:59,430 and other stuff. 616 00:25:00,025 --> 00:25:02,204 And it also gives Doug Burgum 617 00:25:02,585 --> 00:25:04,525 the authority under this EO 618 00:25:04,984 --> 00:25:05,484 to 619 00:25:05,785 --> 00:25:08,664 add other stuff to that list as he 620 00:25:08,664 --> 00:25:10,765 sees fit, whether it's at his own discretion 621 00:25:10,904 --> 00:25:12,605 or at Trump's direction. 622 00:25:13,660 --> 00:25:15,420 So what everything else that follows from this 623 00:25:15,420 --> 00:25:15,920 EO 624 00:25:16,299 --> 00:25:19,920 is following that very generous definition of minerals. 625 00:25:21,099 --> 00:25:23,680 The EO then goes on to lay out 626 00:25:23,900 --> 00:25:25,900 a number of actions that Trump wants the 627 00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:28,284 interior department to take to prioritize 628 00:25:28,664 --> 00:25:29,164 mining 629 00:25:29,625 --> 00:25:30,845 and mineral production 630 00:25:31,464 --> 00:25:33,144 on federal lands. And I think that that 631 00:25:33,144 --> 00:25:34,845 distinction is important because 632 00:25:35,704 --> 00:25:36,984 we all kind of have an idea of 633 00:25:36,984 --> 00:25:38,904 what mining is. It's a giant pit in 634 00:25:38,904 --> 00:25:41,164 the ground. There's a lot of construction materials. 635 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,279 But the EO also provides for a number 636 00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:47,160 of other types of mineral production, and that 637 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,740 could be a facility where they're 638 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:50,619 taking 639 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,759 materials and processing them into different products or 640 00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:56,894 refining them in some way. So there's a 641 00:25:56,894 --> 00:25:58,674 lot more activities 642 00:25:59,215 --> 00:26:01,615 that this EO is seeking to promote than 643 00:26:01,615 --> 00:26:02,674 just mining. 644 00:26:03,375 --> 00:26:05,855 The other thing about this EO is that 645 00:26:05,855 --> 00:26:08,035 the pretext for all of this is 646 00:26:08,335 --> 00:26:09,394 national security, 647 00:26:10,019 --> 00:26:11,720 which is being used to create 648 00:26:12,099 --> 00:26:14,759 a sense of fear and urgency to disguise 649 00:26:14,820 --> 00:26:17,619 what is really a giveaway of our national 650 00:26:17,619 --> 00:26:18,519 public lands 651 00:26:18,820 --> 00:26:19,799 to private industry. 652 00:26:21,380 --> 00:26:24,055 So you mentioned that this creates sort of 653 00:26:24,055 --> 00:26:26,134 a new list of minerals. We already had 654 00:26:26,134 --> 00:26:28,475 a list called the critical minerals list that 655 00:26:28,695 --> 00:26:29,195 essentially 656 00:26:29,575 --> 00:26:31,894 was defined as minerals that are important for 657 00:26:31,894 --> 00:26:34,394 national security and have a threatened supply chain. 658 00:26:35,015 --> 00:26:37,654 Why create this new list instead of just 659 00:26:37,654 --> 00:26:38,154 adding 660 00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:39,799 minerals to the old list? 661 00:26:40,659 --> 00:26:42,579 Yeah. That's a great point. So we do 662 00:26:42,579 --> 00:26:44,919 have an official critical minerals list, 663 00:26:45,220 --> 00:26:48,279 which is required by a law that congress 664 00:26:48,339 --> 00:26:50,900 passed, and it lays out a number of 665 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:53,325 very specific criteria that a mineral has to 666 00:26:53,325 --> 00:26:54,605 meet in order to be added to the 667 00:26:54,605 --> 00:26:55,105 list, 668 00:26:55,404 --> 00:26:58,525 a process for minerals to be evaluated for 669 00:26:58,525 --> 00:26:59,025 inclusion, 670 00:26:59,725 --> 00:27:01,644 people who have to weigh in. So it's 671 00:27:01,644 --> 00:27:02,625 a whole process 672 00:27:02,924 --> 00:27:05,164 to make sure that we're not just adding 673 00:27:05,164 --> 00:27:05,664 stuff 674 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,720 willy nilly at someone's whim to the list. 675 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,900 So that already exists, and there's a process. 676 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:13,759 And then I think it just to make 677 00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:16,640 sure that people know, there's the Department of 678 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,720 Interior's list, which is managed by the US 679 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:19,220 Geological 680 00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:20,099 Survey, 681 00:27:20,505 --> 00:27:22,204 And then there's also a separate 682 00:27:22,664 --> 00:27:23,884 critical materials 683 00:27:24,505 --> 00:27:27,065 list, which is maintained by the Department of 684 00:27:27,065 --> 00:27:28,684 Energy. And they are related, 685 00:27:29,224 --> 00:27:31,724 but similar in that there are specific criteria 686 00:27:31,785 --> 00:27:33,865 and there's a process to put things on 687 00:27:33,865 --> 00:27:35,625 those lists and they come out at certain 688 00:27:35,625 --> 00:27:36,365 time frames. 689 00:27:37,490 --> 00:27:38,549 So by creating 690 00:27:38,849 --> 00:27:40,710 a whole another definition 691 00:27:41,009 --> 00:27:41,669 of minerals, 692 00:27:42,690 --> 00:27:45,809 this seems to be president Trump trying to 693 00:27:45,809 --> 00:27:46,549 get around 694 00:27:46,929 --> 00:27:49,009 the law that was passed by congress to 695 00:27:49,009 --> 00:27:49,990 define the minerals, 696 00:27:50,394 --> 00:27:52,795 the process that is laid out to add 697 00:27:52,795 --> 00:27:55,595 minerals to that list, and just pretend all 698 00:27:55,595 --> 00:27:58,654 of that doesn't exist and ignore it and 699 00:27:59,194 --> 00:28:01,515 try to get the interior department to do 700 00:28:01,515 --> 00:28:02,734 what he wants 701 00:28:03,194 --> 00:28:04,414 on our public lands. 702 00:28:05,519 --> 00:28:07,940 The fact that there are not defined criteria 703 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,840 gives Trump and Burgum and whoever a lot 704 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:12,580 of latitude 705 00:28:13,279 --> 00:28:15,460 to add minerals and other materials 706 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,434 at their convenience for whatever what for whatever 707 00:28:19,434 --> 00:28:19,934 purpose 708 00:28:20,715 --> 00:28:22,575 they want, and they don't have 709 00:28:22,955 --> 00:28:24,174 to meet any specific 710 00:28:25,275 --> 00:28:27,115 goals that are in the national interest in 711 00:28:27,115 --> 00:28:28,095 order to do that. 712 00:28:28,955 --> 00:28:31,115 So I think that I mean, it's obviously 713 00:28:31,115 --> 00:28:33,930 a theme across this administration here. We're gonna 714 00:28:33,930 --> 00:28:36,910 ignore congress, do whatever the heck Trump wants. 715 00:28:37,450 --> 00:28:38,830 And in doing so, 716 00:28:39,450 --> 00:28:39,950 ironically 717 00:28:40,570 --> 00:28:43,230 or maybe not, we're going to create entirely 718 00:28:43,450 --> 00:28:46,509 new levels of federal bureaucracy and more committees 719 00:28:46,904 --> 00:28:48,445 that did not exist before, 720 00:28:49,225 --> 00:28:51,144 all in the name of government efficiency or 721 00:28:51,144 --> 00:28:51,644 something. 722 00:28:52,345 --> 00:28:55,725 So that brings up this National Energy Dominance 723 00:28:55,865 --> 00:28:56,365 Council, 724 00:28:57,465 --> 00:28:57,965 and 725 00:28:58,345 --> 00:29:00,585 interior secretary Doug Burgum is now the head 726 00:29:00,585 --> 00:29:02,265 of this new thing. What the heck is 727 00:29:02,265 --> 00:29:05,440 it? So that's another thing that was created 728 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,799 by another Trump executive order. And like you 729 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:11,619 said, it's growing the government. It's creating another 730 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:12,500 council 731 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:15,779 that's gonna hold meetings and do various bureaucratic 732 00:29:16,079 --> 00:29:16,579 stuff. 733 00:29:17,599 --> 00:29:18,259 I think 734 00:29:18,644 --> 00:29:20,884 part of the thinking here is to more 735 00:29:20,884 --> 00:29:21,384 closely 736 00:29:21,765 --> 00:29:22,265 integrate 737 00:29:22,884 --> 00:29:24,025 the interior department, 738 00:29:24,484 --> 00:29:26,744 public lands, and natural resources 739 00:29:27,765 --> 00:29:28,265 with 740 00:29:28,724 --> 00:29:29,224 national 741 00:29:29,525 --> 00:29:30,025 security 742 00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:33,400 and global trade type of issues because that 743 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,700 helps give them 744 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,259 more of a pretext, more of a justification 745 00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:38,779 for 746 00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:40,779 exploiting 747 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,039 and abusing our public lands and our natural 748 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:44,539 resources 749 00:29:45,355 --> 00:29:48,255 under the guise of things like national security 750 00:29:48,474 --> 00:29:49,294 and defense. 751 00:29:50,474 --> 00:29:53,674 So the EO also directs Burgum as chair 752 00:29:53,674 --> 00:29:56,095 of the National Energy Dominance Council 753 00:29:56,554 --> 00:29:58,575 to develop a proposal for congress 754 00:29:58,875 --> 00:30:02,150 to clarify the treatment of waste rock tailings 755 00:30:02,210 --> 00:30:04,930 and mine waste disposal under the Mining Act 756 00:30:04,930 --> 00:30:06,470 of 1872. 757 00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:08,230 That sounds 758 00:30:08,930 --> 00:30:10,930 confusing, but it's pointing to something, 759 00:30:11,890 --> 00:30:13,570 kind of obvious. Right? Can you tell us 760 00:30:13,570 --> 00:30:15,250 about that and, like, what the what that's 761 00:30:15,250 --> 00:30:15,990 all about? 762 00:30:16,684 --> 00:30:18,444 Sure. I will give you guys sort of 763 00:30:18,444 --> 00:30:20,845 the short version of what is a long 764 00:30:20,845 --> 00:30:21,345 story. 765 00:30:22,125 --> 00:30:24,125 So for the longest time 766 00:30:24,684 --> 00:30:26,845 actually, okay. Let me I'm gonna go back 767 00:30:26,845 --> 00:30:27,585 even further. 768 00:30:27,964 --> 00:30:29,105 Let me give you guys 769 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,039 the short version of what is a pretty 770 00:30:32,039 --> 00:30:32,859 long story. 771 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,920 So in The United States, under the mining 772 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,680 law of 1872, 773 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,180 which still governs mining to this day, 774 00:30:41,954 --> 00:30:44,275 anyone can go out and stake a mining 775 00:30:44,275 --> 00:30:46,534 claim on national public lands. 776 00:30:47,075 --> 00:30:49,234 There's an additional step, though, that you have 777 00:30:49,234 --> 00:30:50,694 to do, which is 778 00:30:50,994 --> 00:30:53,875 prove that your claim is valid. You have 779 00:30:53,875 --> 00:30:55,414 to show that there are 780 00:30:55,789 --> 00:30:58,529 minerals on that claim that are economically 781 00:30:59,710 --> 00:31:01,490 recoverable, that it makes sense 782 00:31:01,950 --> 00:31:03,789 to actually mine them, and you have to 783 00:31:03,789 --> 00:31:05,150 do that in order for your claim to 784 00:31:05,150 --> 00:31:05,970 be valid. 785 00:31:07,230 --> 00:31:09,089 So for the longest time, 786 00:31:09,525 --> 00:31:12,105 mining companies would stake a mining claim 787 00:31:12,565 --> 00:31:14,265 and prove that it was valid, 788 00:31:14,565 --> 00:31:17,705 but then they would stake more claims and 789 00:31:17,845 --> 00:31:21,045 use those to dump the waste from their 790 00:31:21,045 --> 00:31:21,945 mining operations 791 00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:23,740 on public lands 792 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,000 without being forced to show that those other 793 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,720 claims were valid. So they were getting away 794 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,279 with something by dumping mine waste on our 795 00:31:32,279 --> 00:31:33,099 public lands. 796 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,460 There was recently a court decision, 797 00:31:37,335 --> 00:31:39,275 which, again, long story short, 798 00:31:39,894 --> 00:31:42,954 found that, no. You can't do that anymore. 799 00:31:43,015 --> 00:31:45,095 You have to follow what the law says, 800 00:31:45,095 --> 00:31:47,595 which is that you have to show that 801 00:31:47,734 --> 00:31:50,315 you have a valid mining claim even on 802 00:31:50,375 --> 00:31:51,974 lands where you want to dump your mine 803 00:31:51,974 --> 00:31:55,039 waste. And it also says that the federal 804 00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:56,500 land management agency 805 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,440 has to verify that. You can't just take 806 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,840 the company's word for it. So the company 807 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,680 has to demonstrate that it's a valid mining 808 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:04,180 claim, 809 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:06,660 and the land manager has to 810 00:32:07,335 --> 00:32:10,214 verify that on their own before a company 811 00:32:10,214 --> 00:32:12,375 can just use our public lands to dump 812 00:32:12,375 --> 00:32:13,275 their mine waste. 813 00:32:14,054 --> 00:32:16,454 So and that is referred to as the 814 00:32:16,454 --> 00:32:16,954 Rosemont 815 00:32:17,255 --> 00:32:18,474 decision as a shorthand. 816 00:32:19,140 --> 00:32:21,779 So mining companies don't love this because they 817 00:32:21,779 --> 00:32:23,559 don't wanna have to go through all that. 818 00:32:23,859 --> 00:32:25,640 So they are hoping that 819 00:32:26,099 --> 00:32:28,900 either the president or congress will come in 820 00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:31,640 with a fix for the Rosemont decision 821 00:32:32,174 --> 00:32:34,174 that puts them back to the situation they 822 00:32:34,174 --> 00:32:36,975 were in before where they can freely dump 823 00:32:36,975 --> 00:32:39,455 their mind waste on public lands. And this 824 00:32:39,455 --> 00:32:42,654 element of the executive order seems intended to 825 00:32:42,654 --> 00:32:43,715 try to do that. 826 00:32:44,269 --> 00:32:47,149 And, I mean, this is me possibly being 827 00:32:47,149 --> 00:32:48,450 Pollyanna ish, but 828 00:32:48,750 --> 00:32:51,329 is this the year then finally with Rosemont 829 00:32:51,470 --> 00:32:53,490 that you end up with something resembling 830 00:32:53,869 --> 00:32:54,829 1872 831 00:32:54,829 --> 00:32:55,889 mining reform? 832 00:32:56,509 --> 00:32:58,529 And could it be something that is 833 00:32:59,265 --> 00:33:01,125 actually good in some way, 834 00:33:01,664 --> 00:33:03,605 puts a a a royalty 835 00:33:03,904 --> 00:33:04,404 on 836 00:33:04,785 --> 00:33:07,105 hard rock minerals, things like that? Or is 837 00:33:07,105 --> 00:33:07,845 that just 838 00:33:08,465 --> 00:33:10,805 no chance that congress does this or something 839 00:33:11,389 --> 00:33:13,869 along these lines tries to get, like, snuck 840 00:33:13,869 --> 00:33:14,690 into reconciliation 841 00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:17,809 in a way that would not require bipartisan 842 00:33:17,950 --> 00:33:18,450 support? 843 00:33:20,349 --> 00:33:22,750 You know, it is just so difficult to 844 00:33:22,750 --> 00:33:23,250 speculate 845 00:33:26,505 --> 00:33:28,605 now, but we have seen 846 00:33:28,904 --> 00:33:31,304 we've seen, for years and years efforts to 847 00:33:31,304 --> 00:33:33,545 reform the Mayan law of 1872. 848 00:33:33,785 --> 00:33:36,184 That that's always been an uphill battle. We 849 00:33:36,184 --> 00:33:38,605 have seen, as you mentioned, efforts to 850 00:33:39,099 --> 00:33:40,720 sneak fixes to 851 00:33:41,419 --> 00:33:41,919 Rosemont 852 00:33:42,539 --> 00:33:45,500 into things like the National Defense Authorization Act. 853 00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:47,579 You must pass legislation where people are trying 854 00:33:47,579 --> 00:33:50,299 to offer amendments to sneak things like this 855 00:33:50,299 --> 00:33:52,059 through. And so far, those have not been 856 00:33:52,059 --> 00:33:52,559 successful. 857 00:33:53,684 --> 00:33:55,065 And we have seen standalone 858 00:33:55,365 --> 00:33:56,664 just normal legislation 859 00:33:57,765 --> 00:33:59,765 to try and address this situation. There was 860 00:33:59,765 --> 00:34:01,704 the Mining Regulatory Clarity Act, 861 00:34:02,484 --> 00:34:03,384 last congress. 862 00:34:04,164 --> 00:34:04,664 So 863 00:34:05,204 --> 00:34:07,684 I wouldn't be surprised if we see any 864 00:34:07,684 --> 00:34:09,619 number of those types of efforts 865 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:10,420 again. 866 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,039 I do think it's interesting that you bring 867 00:34:13,039 --> 00:34:14,019 up the opportunity 868 00:34:14,319 --> 00:34:14,819 to 869 00:34:15,359 --> 00:34:18,719 add a royalty or a leasing system to 870 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,315 hard rock minerals similar to that that we 871 00:34:21,315 --> 00:34:23,494 already have for oil and gas leasing 872 00:34:24,355 --> 00:34:25,574 with the efforts 873 00:34:26,914 --> 00:34:29,974 to find ways to get more revenue from 874 00:34:30,034 --> 00:34:31,335 our public lands 875 00:34:31,795 --> 00:34:32,675 and all of the, 876 00:34:33,570 --> 00:34:35,590 DOGE efforts to eliminate waste. 877 00:34:37,890 --> 00:34:40,309 If we were to have a royalty on 878 00:34:40,690 --> 00:34:42,950 minerals, that would be a significant 879 00:34:44,289 --> 00:34:47,090 new revenue source for the federal government at 880 00:34:47,090 --> 00:34:48,309 a time when they are 881 00:34:48,855 --> 00:34:50,155 looking around for that 882 00:34:51,574 --> 00:34:55,494 and trumpeting their various efforts to profit more 883 00:34:55,494 --> 00:34:56,394 off of our 884 00:34:56,695 --> 00:34:57,914 national public lands. 885 00:34:58,614 --> 00:35:01,494 And I suppose that gets into $33,000,000,000,000 886 00:35:01,494 --> 00:35:03,894 in selling off public lands to eliminate the 887 00:35:03,894 --> 00:35:06,510 national debt, but we will, you know, get 888 00:35:06,510 --> 00:35:08,289 there in some some other episode. 889 00:35:09,230 --> 00:35:11,410 Back to this mining executive order, 890 00:35:11,710 --> 00:35:13,410 it gave secretary Burgum, 891 00:35:14,190 --> 00:35:17,085 a whopping ten days to compile a list 892 00:35:17,405 --> 00:35:19,025 of all federal lands 893 00:35:19,324 --> 00:35:21,984 known to hold mineral deposits and reserves, 894 00:35:22,605 --> 00:35:24,125 that was over ten days ago. Do you 895 00:35:24,125 --> 00:35:25,885 think we're ever going to see this list? 896 00:35:25,885 --> 00:35:27,184 Does it already exist 897 00:35:27,724 --> 00:35:28,625 from the USGS? 898 00:35:29,085 --> 00:35:29,585 Or, 899 00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:32,549 I mean, why put something like that into 900 00:35:32,549 --> 00:35:33,769 an executive order? 901 00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:36,949 Well, I'm not exactly holding my breath over 902 00:35:36,949 --> 00:35:39,210 here that it is gonna be released publicly. 903 00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:42,309 So we've seen other executive orders directing the 904 00:35:42,309 --> 00:35:44,489 interior department to come up with 905 00:35:44,835 --> 00:35:46,855 other action plans and recommendations 906 00:35:47,234 --> 00:35:49,554 and lists, and we have not seen those 907 00:35:49,554 --> 00:35:50,054 released 908 00:35:50,514 --> 00:35:52,914 publicly. So I'm not holding out hope for 909 00:35:52,914 --> 00:35:54,295 this one either. 910 00:35:54,994 --> 00:35:57,014 I think what we would see 911 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,300 is all of a sudden, there are actions 912 00:36:00,359 --> 00:36:02,359 being taken. Like, you know, one day you 913 00:36:02,359 --> 00:36:05,500 wake up and someone has got construction equipment 914 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:08,760 because they're suddenly building their new mine on 915 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,440 your public lands where you used to go 916 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,219 out and hike on the weekends. 917 00:36:12,635 --> 00:36:13,534 That's how we're 918 00:36:13,994 --> 00:36:14,494 gonna 919 00:36:14,954 --> 00:36:16,494 know what their plans are. 920 00:36:17,114 --> 00:36:20,234 So, finally, the EO directs the secretaries of 921 00:36:20,234 --> 00:36:22,014 all federal land management agencies 922 00:36:22,394 --> 00:36:24,954 to identify as many sites as possible that 923 00:36:24,954 --> 00:36:27,675 may be suitable for mineral production and to 924 00:36:27,675 --> 00:36:30,690 enter into extended use leases with private companies 925 00:36:30,690 --> 00:36:31,750 for mineral production. 926 00:36:32,690 --> 00:36:35,489 That to me sounds like it's saying put 927 00:36:35,489 --> 00:36:38,469 mining ahead of all other uses 928 00:36:38,769 --> 00:36:39,269 on 929 00:36:39,890 --> 00:36:41,989 these on as many sites as possible. 930 00:36:42,530 --> 00:36:44,534 Of course, we have the federal land and 931 00:36:44,534 --> 00:36:47,335 Management Policy Act, which established the concept of 932 00:36:47,335 --> 00:36:48,234 multiple use. 933 00:36:48,534 --> 00:36:50,234 Does this EO essentially, 934 00:36:50,534 --> 00:36:51,034 like, 935 00:36:51,655 --> 00:36:54,454 run counter to that law that is, in 936 00:36:54,454 --> 00:36:56,375 fact, that was passed by Congress that manages 937 00:36:56,375 --> 00:36:57,355 our public lands? 938 00:36:58,230 --> 00:37:00,630 Well, it certainly tries to, and they say 939 00:37:00,630 --> 00:37:02,969 that explicitly. The EO says 940 00:37:03,429 --> 00:37:07,050 that where the interior department has identified 941 00:37:07,429 --> 00:37:09,210 reserves of minerals under 942 00:37:09,909 --> 00:37:11,130 national public lands, 943 00:37:11,590 --> 00:37:12,090 that 944 00:37:12,469 --> 00:37:12,969 mineral 945 00:37:13,614 --> 00:37:14,114 production 946 00:37:14,655 --> 00:37:17,635 be made the primary use of those lands. 947 00:37:18,015 --> 00:37:19,795 And you're exactly right. Under 948 00:37:20,175 --> 00:37:21,155 enabling legislation 949 00:37:21,454 --> 00:37:24,494 like the Federal Land Policy Management Act, which 950 00:37:24,494 --> 00:37:27,875 governs use of Bureau of Land Management lands, 951 00:37:28,889 --> 00:37:29,710 Congress specifically 952 00:37:30,010 --> 00:37:32,670 said that those lands should be managed for 953 00:37:32,809 --> 00:37:33,869 multiple use 954 00:37:34,170 --> 00:37:36,809 and sustained yield. And as we were saying 955 00:37:36,809 --> 00:37:37,630 at the beginning, 956 00:37:38,730 --> 00:37:41,130 this this is just an executive order. It's 957 00:37:41,130 --> 00:37:43,275 directing agencies to to do stuff, but it 958 00:37:43,275 --> 00:37:45,054 is not overriding laws, 959 00:37:46,394 --> 00:37:48,714 although they they certainly seem to be wanting 960 00:37:48,714 --> 00:37:49,775 to try that. 961 00:37:50,875 --> 00:37:53,775 But they are gonna run into problems when 962 00:37:54,074 --> 00:37:56,394 agencies are trying to do things that are 963 00:37:56,394 --> 00:37:57,454 against the law. 964 00:37:57,829 --> 00:38:00,090 So once again, back to the courts 965 00:38:00,710 --> 00:38:02,869 for the Trump administration. Well, I guess we 966 00:38:02,869 --> 00:38:05,590 will leave it there today. Rachel Hamby, Center 967 00:38:05,590 --> 00:38:08,150 for Western Priorities policy director, thank you as 968 00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:10,389 always for being with us. Thanks for having 969 00:38:10,389 --> 00:38:11,050 me on. 970 00:38:15,804 --> 00:38:18,464 In good news this week, lawmakers in Montana 971 00:38:18,605 --> 00:38:20,925 are pushing back against public land sell off 972 00:38:20,925 --> 00:38:22,704 bills in their state legislature. 973 00:38:23,340 --> 00:38:25,980 The Montana house killed a resolution that expressed 974 00:38:25,980 --> 00:38:29,019 support for Utah's land grab lawsuit, which aimed 975 00:38:29,019 --> 00:38:31,260 to force the federal government to give national 976 00:38:31,260 --> 00:38:32,800 public lands to the state. 977 00:38:33,180 --> 00:38:35,019 While the supreme court refused to hear that 978 00:38:35,019 --> 00:38:37,260 lawsuit, the state of Utah could still refile 979 00:38:37,260 --> 00:38:38,559 it in federal court. 980 00:38:39,234 --> 00:38:41,554 The Montana house also amended a bill to 981 00:38:41,554 --> 00:38:44,195 disallow the sale of state trust land after 982 00:38:44,195 --> 00:38:45,094 public outcry. 983 00:38:45,474 --> 00:38:47,875 Meanwhile, the Montana senate voted to table a 984 00:38:47,875 --> 00:38:50,295 bill that would ask congress to remove protections 985 00:38:50,434 --> 00:38:52,855 for all wilderness study areas in Montana. 986 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,359 Between these actions and Montana's federal lawmakers standing 987 00:38:56,359 --> 00:38:58,760 strong against public land sell off, it's looking 988 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,679 like Montana may be emerging as a leader 989 00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:02,920 in the fight against privatizing public lands in 990 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:03,579 the West. 991 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,775 All the credit to lawmakers from both parties 992 00:39:06,775 --> 00:39:09,675 there in Montana for recognizing and listening 993 00:39:09,974 --> 00:39:11,755 to voters in their state. 994 00:39:21,010 --> 00:39:23,170 That will do it for us today. As 995 00:39:23,170 --> 00:39:27,190 always, you can reach us podcast at westernpriorities.org, 996 00:39:27,329 --> 00:39:29,889 and if you haven't already, go subscribe to 997 00:39:29,889 --> 00:39:32,954 Look West. That is our daily public lands 998 00:39:32,954 --> 00:39:36,015 newsletter. We get up early and read everything, 999 00:39:36,474 --> 00:39:38,474 so you don't have to. You get just 1000 00:39:38,474 --> 00:39:40,335 the highlights, the most important, 1001 00:39:40,795 --> 00:39:41,695 best, and 1002 00:39:41,994 --> 00:39:43,855 these days often worse news, 1003 00:39:44,474 --> 00:39:46,635 about our public lands, and if that's too 1004 00:39:46,635 --> 00:39:48,380 much for you every day, we also have 1005 00:39:48,380 --> 00:39:49,680 a monthly newsletter. 1006 00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:51,900 We will drop the link to subscribe to 1007 00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:53,680 all of that in the show notes. 1008 00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:56,460 Thanks again to Mitch and Rachel for their 1009 00:39:56,460 --> 00:39:58,539 time, and thank you for listening to The 1010 00:39:58,539 --> 00:39:59,039 Landscape.