1 00:00:07,279 --> 00:00:09,599 This is The Landscape, your show about America's 2 00:00:09,599 --> 00:00:12,799 parks, public lands and politics today. I'm Aaron 3 00:00:12,799 --> 00:00:14,660 Weiss with the Center For Western Priorities, 4 00:00:15,474 --> 00:00:18,035 thawing out a little bit finally in Denver 5 00:00:18,035 --> 00:00:19,814 after a frigid cold weekend. 6 00:00:20,355 --> 00:00:22,695 And I'm Kate Gretzinger in Salt Lake City. 7 00:00:23,234 --> 00:00:25,974 Well, it's the day after president Trump's inauguration, 8 00:00:26,355 --> 00:00:28,355 and we're here to break down the barrage 9 00:00:28,355 --> 00:00:30,855 of executive orders he issued last night. 10 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:33,679 Our guest today is Drew McConville, a senior 11 00:00:33,679 --> 00:00:36,000 fellow on the conservation policy team at the 12 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:37,539 Center For American Progress. 13 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,560 His research is focused on energy, public lands, 14 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,620 and Alaska. Drew, thanks for joining us. Thanks. 15 00:00:43,634 --> 00:00:44,614 Good to be with you 16 00:00:45,554 --> 00:00:46,054 both. 17 00:00:46,994 --> 00:00:49,394 Well, Drew, it was certainly maybe not a 18 00:00:49,394 --> 00:00:51,155 surprise last night. It was a bit of 19 00:00:51,155 --> 00:00:53,254 shock and awe in terms of the volume 20 00:00:53,314 --> 00:00:55,649 of executive orders that we saw last night, 21 00:00:56,130 --> 00:00:58,530 night, not just the environment, but, of course, 22 00:00:58,530 --> 00:00:59,030 immigration, 23 00:01:00,370 --> 00:01:00,870 inflation, 24 00:01:02,609 --> 00:01:03,670 a whole lot. 25 00:01:04,370 --> 00:01:06,130 Did what we saw last night in terms 26 00:01:06,130 --> 00:01:08,530 of those executive orders line up with what 27 00:01:08,530 --> 00:01:09,349 you were expecting? 28 00:01:09,650 --> 00:01:11,430 Were there any surprises for you? 29 00:01:12,105 --> 00:01:14,504 Yeah. On the one hand, it was pretty 30 00:01:14,504 --> 00:01:15,965 shocking and outrageous. 31 00:01:16,745 --> 00:01:17,245 Shocking 32 00:01:17,704 --> 00:01:18,765 how shamelessly, 33 00:01:20,825 --> 00:01:23,564 president Trump was proclaiming that he would do 34 00:01:23,625 --> 00:01:26,159 anything and everything to put the interests of 35 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,340 oil and gas ahead of anything else. 36 00:01:29,439 --> 00:01:31,920 And that includes walking away from our global 37 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,700 leadership on climate, our, 38 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:36,020 clean energy advantage, 39 00:01:36,799 --> 00:01:38,420 in the race with China, 40 00:01:39,224 --> 00:01:41,145 and that he would direct his political team, 41 00:01:41,145 --> 00:01:44,025 really, to find ways around the law, really, 42 00:01:44,025 --> 00:01:45,805 all in the name of fossil fuels. 43 00:01:47,305 --> 00:01:48,364 On the other hand, 44 00:01:48,665 --> 00:01:49,325 you know, 45 00:01:49,864 --> 00:01:50,364 it's 46 00:01:50,905 --> 00:01:53,305 as usual, this amounted to a whole lot 47 00:01:53,305 --> 00:01:53,969 of talk. 48 00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:56,450 And, really, we didn't see a lot of 49 00:01:56,450 --> 00:01:57,430 action. Most 50 00:01:57,730 --> 00:01:59,650 of the actions that matter are gonna come 51 00:01:59,650 --> 00:02:00,150 later, 52 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:02,930 and a lot is easier said than done 53 00:02:02,930 --> 00:02:05,170 when it comes right down to it. Yeah. 54 00:02:05,170 --> 00:02:07,224 Fair enough. It was there was a lot 55 00:02:07,224 --> 00:02:08,685 in there. And reading through them, 56 00:02:09,465 --> 00:02:11,384 was very confusing. It was like, can he 57 00:02:11,384 --> 00:02:13,064 even do this? It was the thought I 58 00:02:13,064 --> 00:02:14,665 had a lot a lot, 59 00:02:15,384 --> 00:02:18,344 many times last night. But, let's talk about 60 00:02:18,344 --> 00:02:20,599 public lands now. How many of these orders 61 00:02:20,599 --> 00:02:23,159 pertained in some way to public lands? And 62 00:02:23,159 --> 00:02:24,680 can you sort of give a quick summary 63 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:25,819 of the ones that did? 64 00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:28,620 Yeah. There were a few, 65 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,400 really, where that are probably most important when 66 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,500 it comes to our parks and public lands. 67 00:02:34,105 --> 00:02:37,064 There was, one executive order on, 68 00:02:37,385 --> 00:02:38,605 focused on Alaska's 69 00:02:38,985 --> 00:02:40,765 lands and waters and resources 70 00:02:41,145 --> 00:02:42,365 that was called Unleashing 71 00:02:42,665 --> 00:02:43,805 Alaska's Extraordinary 72 00:02:44,185 --> 00:02:45,085 Resource Potential. 73 00:02:46,185 --> 00:02:46,925 There was 74 00:02:47,469 --> 00:02:48,050 the declaration 75 00:02:48,430 --> 00:02:50,210 of a national energy emergency, 76 00:02:50,670 --> 00:02:51,569 which has implications 77 00:02:51,950 --> 00:02:52,450 for, 78 00:02:53,629 --> 00:02:55,490 for drilling and mining 79 00:02:55,870 --> 00:02:57,010 on public lands. 80 00:02:57,629 --> 00:02:58,129 And, 81 00:02:58,590 --> 00:03:00,210 there was a pretty lengthy 82 00:03:00,915 --> 00:03:03,574 executive order called Unleashing American Energy 83 00:03:03,955 --> 00:03:05,335 that had to do with, 84 00:03:05,955 --> 00:03:07,655 that has implications for 85 00:03:08,034 --> 00:03:08,534 drilling, 86 00:03:08,835 --> 00:03:11,094 mining again on public lands and waters. 87 00:03:11,635 --> 00:03:12,514 There was also, 88 00:03:13,155 --> 00:03:15,495 a couple of executive orders, one in particular, 89 00:03:15,794 --> 00:03:16,534 that revoked 90 00:03:17,629 --> 00:03:18,129 past, 91 00:03:18,989 --> 00:03:21,389 kind of a laundry list of of past 92 00:03:21,389 --> 00:03:23,250 orders from the Biden administration. 93 00:03:24,590 --> 00:03:25,090 And 94 00:03:25,389 --> 00:03:28,449 that those had implications as well, including for 95 00:03:28,974 --> 00:03:32,594 this national conservation mission that president Biden launched, 96 00:03:33,055 --> 00:03:34,115 with a lot of support 97 00:03:34,974 --> 00:03:35,955 and for 98 00:03:36,254 --> 00:03:38,574 our efforts to fight the climate crisis too, 99 00:03:38,574 --> 00:03:39,235 in particular. 100 00:03:41,215 --> 00:03:43,715 Obviously, a lot of big flowery language, especially 101 00:03:43,935 --> 00:03:47,449 in those titles of things like unleashing extraordinary 102 00:03:47,590 --> 00:03:48,409 resource potential. 103 00:03:49,189 --> 00:03:51,750 But maybe the silliest there is this notion 104 00:03:51,750 --> 00:03:53,689 that there is an energy emergency 105 00:03:54,150 --> 00:03:56,550 since as we've noted many times on this 106 00:03:56,550 --> 00:03:57,050 podcast, 107 00:03:57,430 --> 00:03:59,854 oil and gas production in America is higher 108 00:03:59,854 --> 00:04:02,354 than it has ever been in history. 109 00:04:02,894 --> 00:04:03,394 So 110 00:04:04,014 --> 00:04:06,114 why say that there's an emergency, 111 00:04:07,055 --> 00:04:08,114 if there's certainly, 112 00:04:08,574 --> 00:04:10,435 no shortage of energy going around? 113 00:04:11,534 --> 00:04:12,354 Yeah. And 114 00:04:12,719 --> 00:04:14,639 there's not only that, you've got oil and 115 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:17,519 gas companies sitting on, you know, decade of 116 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:19,860 unused leases, something like that. 117 00:04:21,199 --> 00:04:23,360 And at the same time that he's saying 118 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,100 we're in the midst of an urgent energy 119 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:26,740 crisis, 120 00:04:28,524 --> 00:04:29,425 he says, 121 00:04:29,725 --> 00:04:31,644 but we don't really wanna do anything about 122 00:04:31,644 --> 00:04:34,605 wind and solar. Actually, on wind, we wanna 123 00:04:34,605 --> 00:04:36,944 shut it all down and immediately halt 124 00:04:37,485 --> 00:04:38,544 any new approvals 125 00:04:38,845 --> 00:04:39,324 of, 126 00:04:39,725 --> 00:04:42,544 both offshore or and onshore wind. 127 00:04:43,459 --> 00:04:45,860 So it it doesn't line up with the 128 00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:47,160 rhetoric for sure. 129 00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:49,319 Why is he doing that? 130 00:04:49,939 --> 00:04:50,519 You know, 131 00:04:50,899 --> 00:04:53,139 I think it's pretty clear when you when 132 00:04:53,139 --> 00:04:54,979 you dig into it that what this is 133 00:04:54,979 --> 00:04:56,120 about is 134 00:04:56,654 --> 00:04:58,355 trying to give any excuse 135 00:04:58,895 --> 00:05:02,495 possible to his political team to find ways 136 00:05:02,495 --> 00:05:03,475 around the law, 137 00:05:04,654 --> 00:05:05,875 in order to advantage, 138 00:05:06,735 --> 00:05:09,154 the oil and gas and and mining 139 00:05:09,535 --> 00:05:10,574 industries that he, 140 00:05:11,910 --> 00:05:13,769 seems to be looking out for here. 141 00:05:14,310 --> 00:05:16,810 And he's specifically calling out, 142 00:05:17,269 --> 00:05:20,310 ways looking for ways around the Endangered Species 143 00:05:20,310 --> 00:05:20,810 Act, 144 00:05:21,110 --> 00:05:24,250 looking for ways around clean water protections, 145 00:05:24,629 --> 00:05:25,529 clean air, 146 00:05:26,415 --> 00:05:28,894 and other other ways. And so calling it 147 00:05:28,894 --> 00:05:29,634 an emergency, 148 00:05:30,574 --> 00:05:32,115 even if it's not an emergency, 149 00:05:32,654 --> 00:05:34,254 seems like what what he's trying to do 150 00:05:34,254 --> 00:05:34,814 here is, 151 00:05:35,935 --> 00:05:37,475 look for ways around the law. 152 00:05:38,389 --> 00:05:41,129 Right. So following from that, the, 153 00:05:42,149 --> 00:05:44,550 unleashing American energy, of course, is sort of, 154 00:05:44,550 --> 00:05:47,430 I guess, his response to the made up 155 00:05:47,430 --> 00:05:48,330 energy emergency. 156 00:05:49,589 --> 00:05:52,205 What was in that EO and sort of 157 00:05:52,205 --> 00:05:54,064 which parts of that really touch on public 158 00:05:55,004 --> 00:05:56,685 lands? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot in 159 00:05:56,685 --> 00:05:57,185 that, 160 00:05:57,805 --> 00:05:58,305 EO. 161 00:05:59,165 --> 00:06:01,105 It does read like, 162 00:06:01,964 --> 00:06:02,685 both a, 163 00:06:04,550 --> 00:06:05,910 I mean, it does read a little bit 164 00:06:05,910 --> 00:06:07,689 like a special interest, 165 00:06:08,470 --> 00:06:11,430 wish list. It also reads a little bit 166 00:06:11,430 --> 00:06:11,930 like, 167 00:06:12,389 --> 00:06:14,250 a list of the things president, 168 00:06:14,949 --> 00:06:17,485 Trump seems to have a beef against, like 169 00:06:17,485 --> 00:06:19,904 electric vehicles and wind. 170 00:06:21,644 --> 00:06:24,205 You know, and it also amounts to quite 171 00:06:24,205 --> 00:06:25,584 a bit of bluster, 172 00:06:26,845 --> 00:06:29,324 and a lot of directions to come back 173 00:06:29,324 --> 00:06:30,704 to him with reports, 174 00:06:31,509 --> 00:06:32,009 and, 175 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:33,769 recommendations of actions 176 00:06:34,149 --> 00:06:36,009 and where, you know, ultimately, 177 00:06:37,029 --> 00:06:39,449 the the impact will be felt later. 178 00:06:40,709 --> 00:06:41,850 When it comes to 179 00:06:42,229 --> 00:06:43,350 you know, one of the one of the 180 00:06:43,350 --> 00:06:45,610 first things that it talks about is expanding, 181 00:06:46,925 --> 00:06:49,345 drilling and mining on public lands and waters. 182 00:06:50,764 --> 00:06:51,904 And, really, what 183 00:06:52,444 --> 00:06:54,064 it what it does is 184 00:06:54,605 --> 00:06:57,324 basically launch a search and destroy mission with 185 00:06:57,324 --> 00:06:58,305 public lands, 186 00:06:59,004 --> 00:07:01,824 wildlife, and climate protections in the crosshairs. 187 00:07:02,819 --> 00:07:04,600 And it's calling out this, 188 00:07:05,220 --> 00:07:06,120 energy dominance 189 00:07:06,500 --> 00:07:08,680 agenda that he's talked about before. 190 00:07:09,379 --> 00:07:12,259 This time around, he's layering in a new, 191 00:07:12,580 --> 00:07:15,379 element of that and call calling for minerals 192 00:07:15,379 --> 00:07:15,879 dominance. 193 00:07:17,564 --> 00:07:20,205 And and, basically, he calls out he calls 194 00:07:20,205 --> 00:07:22,305 on his political team to 195 00:07:22,685 --> 00:07:24,625 look for existing regulations, 196 00:07:25,004 --> 00:07:25,504 orders, 197 00:07:25,884 --> 00:07:27,025 guidance, policies, 198 00:07:28,764 --> 00:07:31,264 and any and the like, really, to 199 00:07:31,949 --> 00:07:35,310 look for actions that can be revoked because 200 00:07:35,310 --> 00:07:37,169 they're a, quote, unquote, burden, 201 00:07:38,029 --> 00:07:38,529 to 202 00:07:38,990 --> 00:07:41,870 energy development. And, again, energy development doesn't count, 203 00:07:41,870 --> 00:07:42,769 wind and solar. 204 00:07:43,550 --> 00:07:45,889 Just talking about fossil fuels pretty much, 205 00:07:46,935 --> 00:07:48,314 as well as reviewing 206 00:07:49,014 --> 00:07:49,514 protections 207 00:07:49,895 --> 00:07:52,134 of for public lands that are, 208 00:07:54,375 --> 00:07:56,855 well, as well as reviewing protections for public 209 00:07:56,855 --> 00:07:58,014 lands from, 210 00:07:58,455 --> 00:07:58,955 mineral 211 00:07:59,334 --> 00:07:59,834 extraction. 212 00:08:00,134 --> 00:08:00,634 So 213 00:08:01,050 --> 00:08:01,550 here, 214 00:08:02,009 --> 00:08:04,169 they're not named. The places aren't named, but 215 00:08:04,169 --> 00:08:06,649 we're talking about places like Chaco Canyon. We're 216 00:08:06,649 --> 00:08:08,829 talking about the Boundary Waters in Minnesota. 217 00:08:10,250 --> 00:08:12,649 That's sort of what's coded in here. And, 218 00:08:12,649 --> 00:08:15,095 again, a bit of a search and destroy 219 00:08:15,095 --> 00:08:15,595 mission. 220 00:08:16,214 --> 00:08:18,294 Right. It was almost like they didn't know 221 00:08:18,294 --> 00:08:19,834 exactly what they 222 00:08:20,294 --> 00:08:22,454 wanted to undo, but they were just like, 223 00:08:22,454 --> 00:08:25,414 hey. Go look at anything that could be 224 00:08:25,414 --> 00:08:25,914 impacting 225 00:08:26,529 --> 00:08:27,750 oil and gas production 226 00:08:28,209 --> 00:08:30,290 and mining and and figure out how to 227 00:08:30,290 --> 00:08:32,129 reverse it. Or they just don't wanna say 228 00:08:32,129 --> 00:08:35,009 the quiet part out loud yet because they 229 00:08:35,009 --> 00:08:37,409 know that mining in the boundary waters is 230 00:08:37,409 --> 00:08:40,210 in fact really unpopular. So we're not gonna 231 00:08:40,210 --> 00:08:40,870 say that 232 00:08:41,355 --> 00:08:44,315 explicitly on day 1. Now one of the 233 00:08:44,315 --> 00:08:46,975 things they did say explicitly in here 234 00:08:47,274 --> 00:08:50,634 is the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge called out 235 00:08:50,634 --> 00:08:53,355 by name as somewhere that Donald Trump wants 236 00:08:53,355 --> 00:08:55,274 to drill. Drew, I know you focus a 237 00:08:55,274 --> 00:08:57,529 lot on Alaska in your work. 238 00:08:57,909 --> 00:09:01,269 So walk us through what the the the 239 00:09:01,269 --> 00:09:03,750 Trump Alaska order in particular is trying to 240 00:09:03,750 --> 00:09:04,250 do. 241 00:09:05,429 --> 00:09:08,230 Yeah. The Alaska order, more so than the 242 00:09:08,230 --> 00:09:08,730 energy, 243 00:09:09,669 --> 00:09:11,449 order is very specific, 244 00:09:12,284 --> 00:09:13,985 and it is the 245 00:09:14,605 --> 00:09:17,404 special interest hit list, really, when it comes 246 00:09:17,404 --> 00:09:19,105 to Alaska mining and drilling. 247 00:09:20,125 --> 00:09:23,644 It is talking about the western Arctic and 248 00:09:23,644 --> 00:09:26,960 even those areas that where well, even the 249 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,019 most special areas, called special areas, 250 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:31,379 right, which are, 251 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,279 places like to checkbook lake, this incredible caribou 252 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:37,059 habitat and wetlands area. 253 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,200 We have birds from all over the world 254 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:40,259 coming to nest. 255 00:09:40,904 --> 00:09:43,304 Almost anybody should agree these places should be 256 00:09:43,304 --> 00:09:44,524 off limits to drilling. 257 00:09:45,945 --> 00:09:47,725 That's targeted. In fact, 258 00:09:48,105 --> 00:09:50,504 for some reason, the executive order calls for 259 00:09:50,504 --> 00:09:52,679 revoking the same regulations twice. 260 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,940 So it's going after the western Arctic. 261 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,200 It is going after the Tongass National Forest. 262 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,799 It's the world's largest intact temperate rainforest, and 263 00:10:03,799 --> 00:10:06,120 it's trying to open that up to old 264 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:06,940 growth logging. 265 00:10:07,985 --> 00:10:08,565 It's directing 266 00:10:08,945 --> 00:10:12,084 the completion of this Ambler Road, which is 267 00:10:12,705 --> 00:10:13,605 a a mining, 268 00:10:14,464 --> 00:10:17,044 road to a mining project that may someday 269 00:10:17,105 --> 00:10:19,125 exist, but it's cracking open, 270 00:10:19,745 --> 00:10:22,480 gates of the Arctic National Park and and 271 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,740 other protected areas in the process. 272 00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:27,860 As you mentioned, it 273 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,440 president Trump seems hell bent on drilling the 274 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,235 Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, one of the most 275 00:10:34,235 --> 00:10:34,735 biodiverse 276 00:10:35,115 --> 00:10:37,774 spots in the country sorry, in the world. 277 00:10:38,554 --> 00:10:39,034 And, 278 00:10:39,514 --> 00:10:40,335 even though 279 00:10:41,274 --> 00:10:43,434 the oil and gas industry has had 2 280 00:10:43,434 --> 00:10:45,995 bites of the apple and shown no interest 281 00:10:46,154 --> 00:10:48,539 no no major oil companies have any had 282 00:10:48,539 --> 00:10:51,179 any interest in leasing the Arctic National Wildlife 283 00:10:51,179 --> 00:10:51,679 Refuge. 284 00:10:52,379 --> 00:10:54,959 President Trump here is trying to, 285 00:10:55,740 --> 00:10:58,399 take another run at it and force drilling 286 00:10:58,620 --> 00:11:00,000 in that place as well. 287 00:11:01,794 --> 00:11:03,955 There's one other one other thing in that 288 00:11:03,955 --> 00:11:05,875 order that I would call out because it's 289 00:11:05,875 --> 00:11:07,415 it's kind of buried in there. 290 00:11:08,595 --> 00:11:09,095 But 291 00:11:09,554 --> 00:11:10,054 there's, 292 00:11:11,235 --> 00:11:13,975 there are elements of that order, that executive 293 00:11:14,035 --> 00:11:14,934 order on Alaska 294 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,620 that would open up 28,000,000 295 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:19,459 acres of public lands. 296 00:11:20,079 --> 00:11:21,620 He doesn't do it. He's directing 297 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:24,480 the interior department to do this, but to 298 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:25,459 open up 28,000,000 299 00:11:25,919 --> 00:11:27,379 acres of public lands 300 00:11:27,839 --> 00:11:29,299 to extract the development, 301 00:11:29,834 --> 00:11:31,914 lands that have been close to development since 302 00:11:31,914 --> 00:11:32,574 the seventies. 303 00:11:33,754 --> 00:11:35,855 These are known as the d one withdrawals 304 00:11:36,235 --> 00:11:37,774 if you're really in the weeds. 305 00:11:38,235 --> 00:11:39,995 But, you know, what you need to know 306 00:11:39,995 --> 00:11:42,299 is this is an area that's I think 307 00:11:42,299 --> 00:11:43,200 it's, like, 37 308 00:11:43,740 --> 00:11:46,320 the size of 37 Yosemite National Parks, 309 00:11:47,659 --> 00:11:51,580 amazing wildlife habitat, really important subsistence resources for 310 00:11:51,580 --> 00:11:52,879 Alaska Native communities, 311 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:56,220 and more than half of the federally recognized 312 00:11:56,220 --> 00:11:58,965 tribes in Alaska have called for these protections 313 00:11:58,965 --> 00:11:59,945 to stay in place. 314 00:12:00,884 --> 00:12:03,125 And then buried in this executive order, Trump 315 00:12:03,125 --> 00:12:05,705 says, no. Let's let's get rid of those. 316 00:12:07,764 --> 00:12:09,045 One of the things that I think got 317 00:12:09,045 --> 00:12:12,279 lost in the initial reporting on these executive 318 00:12:12,279 --> 00:12:14,519 orders because they are, you know, so wide 319 00:12:14,519 --> 00:12:16,620 ranging and he just says do this stuff 320 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,040 is the question of can he actually do 321 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,019 this stuff? 322 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,879 And because he's the most specific in Alaska, 323 00:12:23,879 --> 00:12:25,184 maybe you can just start 324 00:12:25,985 --> 00:12:27,345 there and walk us through how much of 325 00:12:27,345 --> 00:12:28,245 this is actually 326 00:12:29,345 --> 00:12:29,845 plausible, 327 00:12:30,225 --> 00:12:30,725 feasible, 328 00:12:31,664 --> 00:12:32,164 doable 329 00:12:32,784 --> 00:12:33,284 via 330 00:12:33,664 --> 00:12:34,164 EO, 331 00:12:34,705 --> 00:12:36,304 or how much of this is just telling 332 00:12:36,304 --> 00:12:36,804 agencies 333 00:12:37,264 --> 00:12:39,179 figure out a way to do this, but 334 00:12:39,500 --> 00:12:40,779 good luck finding a way to do that 335 00:12:40,860 --> 00:12:41,679 do it legally. 336 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:43,839 Yeah. That it's a great question. 337 00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:45,120 It's 338 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:47,740 a lot of talk. It's a lot of, 339 00:12:47,740 --> 00:12:49,899 hey. Look at what I'm signing here in 340 00:12:49,899 --> 00:12:50,379 this, 341 00:12:51,019 --> 00:12:52,159 on a jumbotron 342 00:12:53,019 --> 00:12:53,679 in the, 343 00:12:54,695 --> 00:12:55,835 you know, in the arena, 344 00:12:57,254 --> 00:12:57,754 actually 345 00:12:58,294 --> 00:12:59,274 rolling back, 346 00:13:00,535 --> 00:13:01,514 legal protections 347 00:13:01,894 --> 00:13:03,514 like he's calling for here, 348 00:13:04,934 --> 00:13:07,434 may not be impossible in in some cases. 349 00:13:07,950 --> 00:13:08,450 But, 350 00:13:08,910 --> 00:13:10,910 what you're talking about are protections that were 351 00:13:10,910 --> 00:13:11,889 put in place 352 00:13:12,269 --> 00:13:12,769 through 353 00:13:13,790 --> 00:13:16,029 a lot of science, getting up that getting 354 00:13:16,029 --> 00:13:18,110 a lot of science onto the record, a 355 00:13:18,110 --> 00:13:19,490 ton of public input, 356 00:13:20,834 --> 00:13:22,455 really years of work, 357 00:13:23,154 --> 00:13:25,334 to put in place common sense 358 00:13:25,634 --> 00:13:30,054 legal protections for wildlife, for endangered species, for, 359 00:13:30,914 --> 00:13:33,919 special waters. You know, rolling that back doesn't 360 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:35,699 happen overnight. It takes, 361 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:38,639 quite a bit of time for an agency 362 00:13:38,639 --> 00:13:39,299 to reconsider 363 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:41,379 a rulemaking like, 364 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,620 the rule for the western Arctic. 365 00:13:44,174 --> 00:13:46,115 You know, I I talked about the 28,000,000 366 00:13:46,735 --> 00:13:49,394 acres of public lands in Alaska that, 367 00:13:50,495 --> 00:13:52,595 so much of the state, 368 00:13:53,134 --> 00:13:54,355 wanted to see protected. 369 00:13:54,975 --> 00:13:57,214 You know, the agency, the Department of Interior 370 00:13:57,214 --> 00:13:59,554 and the Bureau of Land Management, then DOI, 371 00:14:00,149 --> 00:14:01,129 you know, they worked 372 00:14:01,990 --> 00:14:03,210 for couple of years, 373 00:14:04,149 --> 00:14:04,649 considering 374 00:14:05,110 --> 00:14:08,470 evaluating the environmental impacts of opening this area 375 00:14:08,470 --> 00:14:08,970 up, 376 00:14:09,830 --> 00:14:12,309 made a really sound decision on the basis 377 00:14:12,309 --> 00:14:13,210 of all that. 378 00:14:14,365 --> 00:14:16,384 If they try to rush through, 379 00:14:17,404 --> 00:14:18,065 a reversal 380 00:14:18,845 --> 00:14:20,705 and just say, oh, we changed our mind, 381 00:14:21,404 --> 00:14:24,285 because president Trump told us to, that that 382 00:14:24,285 --> 00:14:26,680 shouldn't hold up in court. And, know, if 383 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,120 you look back at what happened in the 384 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,940 1st Trump administration, he lost a lot in 385 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,000 court. They they weren't real good at it. 386 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,420 No. That part of it. Actually, having stuff 387 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,200 follow the law and hold up. No. No. 388 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:39,580 And maybe that's 389 00:14:39,954 --> 00:14:42,454 not the point for president Trump. You know? 390 00:14:42,514 --> 00:14:44,595 Mhmm. I guess I guess we'll see if 391 00:14:44,595 --> 00:14:47,315 he's mainly just interested in the day one 392 00:14:47,315 --> 00:14:47,815 publicity. 393 00:14:49,235 --> 00:14:50,834 You know, is is he and his team 394 00:14:50,834 --> 00:14:52,695 gonna are they gonna put the work into 395 00:14:53,419 --> 00:14:56,799 getting this stuff legally tight and and done? 396 00:14:56,860 --> 00:14:58,860 It's hard to kind of imagine. It's hard 397 00:14:58,860 --> 00:15:00,079 to imagine that's possible. 398 00:15:00,779 --> 00:15:02,459 Sorry about the sound effect in the background 399 00:15:02,459 --> 00:15:02,959 there. 400 00:15:03,579 --> 00:15:04,319 No problem. 401 00:15:05,019 --> 00:15:07,179 Yeah. And and, you were mentioning, you know, 402 00:15:07,179 --> 00:15:09,735 rule makings and that those apply to, 403 00:15:10,434 --> 00:15:12,195 you know, the oil and gas drilling. Like, 404 00:15:12,195 --> 00:15:14,355 pretty much everything that was done under Biden 405 00:15:14,355 --> 00:15:16,274 was done through some sort of NEPA or 406 00:15:16,274 --> 00:15:19,735 rulemaking process that would require 407 00:15:20,690 --> 00:15:23,409 a process to undo. So I guess I 408 00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:25,409 I'm curious, like, do you did any of 409 00:15:25,409 --> 00:15:27,490 these really go into effect last night, or 410 00:15:27,490 --> 00:15:30,610 is this all just wait and see wait 411 00:15:30,610 --> 00:15:31,589 and see what 412 00:15:31,889 --> 00:15:33,809 what gets tied up in court? Like, is 413 00:15:33,809 --> 00:15:35,429 is there anything that actually happened 414 00:15:36,134 --> 00:15:36,875 on the ground? 415 00:15:38,695 --> 00:15:39,434 You know, 416 00:15:40,054 --> 00:15:41,995 not a lot of this happened 417 00:15:42,375 --> 00:15:42,875 immediately. 418 00:15:43,975 --> 00:15:45,654 You know, off the top of my head, 419 00:15:45,654 --> 00:15:48,295 what, you know, what the president can do 420 00:15:48,295 --> 00:15:49,815 and what a lot of presidents have done 421 00:15:49,815 --> 00:15:50,795 is they freeze, 422 00:15:52,029 --> 00:15:54,509 you know, ongoing actions. If something was on 423 00:15:54,509 --> 00:15:55,730 its way to 424 00:15:56,509 --> 00:15:58,350 the be published a rule making was on 425 00:15:58,350 --> 00:15:59,870 its way to be published in the federal 426 00:15:59,870 --> 00:16:01,009 register, the president, 427 00:16:01,470 --> 00:16:03,470 yeah, that he can direct his agencies to 428 00:16:03,470 --> 00:16:05,409 stop that and not not 429 00:16:05,745 --> 00:16:07,205 advance it and pause, 430 00:16:07,745 --> 00:16:10,565 action while they review what the previous administration 431 00:16:10,625 --> 00:16:12,245 has done. And that's not uncommon 432 00:16:13,024 --> 00:16:14,085 to have happened. 433 00:16:14,465 --> 00:16:16,625 The Biden administration didn't leave a lot till 434 00:16:16,625 --> 00:16:18,304 the last minute, though. So a lot of 435 00:16:18,304 --> 00:16:21,445 the most impactful and meaningful actions that we've 436 00:16:21,559 --> 00:16:22,679 talked about in 437 00:16:24,039 --> 00:16:25,740 when we talk about public lands, 438 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,199 these things have been done for a while, 439 00:16:28,199 --> 00:16:31,879 and those really weren't vulnerable to immediate freeze 440 00:16:31,879 --> 00:16:32,620 or pause. 441 00:16:34,174 --> 00:16:36,674 We've also seen a lot of the spending 442 00:16:37,214 --> 00:16:39,634 on important clean energy projects, 443 00:16:40,014 --> 00:16:40,754 on conservation 444 00:16:41,054 --> 00:16:42,975 projects. A lot of that stuff has happened, 445 00:16:42,975 --> 00:16:43,475 and, 446 00:16:44,174 --> 00:16:46,975 you know, facilities are being built as a 447 00:16:46,975 --> 00:16:47,475 result. 448 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:48,500 Manufacturing, 449 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,679 is getting back in action in a lot 450 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:52,740 of parts of the country. 451 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,000 That doesn't stop just because the president says 452 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,660 stop. You know? On the other hand, 453 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,540 some some of the federal spending 454 00:17:02,825 --> 00:17:03,565 that is, 455 00:17:04,424 --> 00:17:06,684 supposed to be happening under the law, 456 00:17:07,224 --> 00:17:09,085 including stuff that was passed, 457 00:17:09,625 --> 00:17:10,445 in the bipartisan 458 00:17:11,464 --> 00:17:13,884 infrastructure law, a lot of Republican priorities 459 00:17:14,505 --> 00:17:15,805 were frozen here. 460 00:17:16,184 --> 00:17:17,404 And some of that money, 461 00:17:18,430 --> 00:17:19,570 is gonna be stuck. 462 00:17:20,269 --> 00:17:22,210 And there will be impacts of that, 463 00:17:22,590 --> 00:17:24,049 that get felt pretty immediately. 464 00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:25,410 And I suspect, 465 00:17:26,190 --> 00:17:27,809 that's gonna be pretty unpopular, 466 00:17:28,110 --> 00:17:29,170 especially especially 467 00:17:29,845 --> 00:17:32,785 when you're talking about, money to farmers for, 468 00:17:33,845 --> 00:17:35,545 voluntary conservation programs. 469 00:17:36,485 --> 00:17:37,384 Drought resilience. 470 00:17:37,924 --> 00:17:39,845 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're in the middle 471 00:17:39,845 --> 00:17:41,625 of some really horrific 472 00:17:43,100 --> 00:17:43,600 disasters. 473 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:45,680 And, 474 00:17:47,180 --> 00:17:49,180 you know, I I doesn't seem like the 475 00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:51,840 time to be hitting the brakes on 476 00:17:53,180 --> 00:17:54,160 climate resilience, 477 00:17:54,620 --> 00:17:55,120 on 478 00:17:56,105 --> 00:17:56,605 wildfire, 479 00:17:57,545 --> 00:17:59,945 resilience projects, but that is one of the 480 00:17:59,945 --> 00:18:01,565 things we saw happen last night. 481 00:18:02,825 --> 00:18:03,725 Okay. So 482 00:18:04,105 --> 00:18:06,105 what are you watching for in the coming 483 00:18:06,105 --> 00:18:07,559 weeks? Obviously, there's 484 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,920 a a new congress that's getting off the 485 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:11,420 ground, 486 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:14,440 and Trump, I'm sure, is not done with 487 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,340 these executive orders. So what's on your radar? 488 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,744 Yeah. You know, we we wrote a report 489 00:18:20,825 --> 00:18:21,724 fairly recently. 490 00:18:22,424 --> 00:18:24,825 Last week, actually, it came out. It was 491 00:18:24,825 --> 00:18:25,325 called, 492 00:18:26,025 --> 00:18:28,765 8 ways in special interests are asking president-elect 493 00:18:28,984 --> 00:18:31,085 Trump to sell out US public lands. 494 00:18:31,704 --> 00:18:33,144 You know, a lot of what we saw 495 00:18:33,144 --> 00:18:33,644 yesterday, 496 00:18:34,660 --> 00:18:35,160 looks 497 00:18:35,779 --> 00:18:36,900 a lot like a 498 00:18:37,299 --> 00:18:38,680 the early steps, 499 00:18:39,619 --> 00:18:40,119 towards 500 00:18:40,980 --> 00:18:44,019 selling out, selling off our public lands to 501 00:18:44,019 --> 00:18:45,480 those oil and gas industries 502 00:18:45,779 --> 00:18:46,279 and, 503 00:18:47,404 --> 00:18:50,464 the the mining companies, mostly foreign mining companies, 504 00:18:50,924 --> 00:18:53,984 that he's putting first here in these orders. 505 00:18:54,605 --> 00:18:56,444 But some of the details a lot of 506 00:18:56,444 --> 00:18:58,464 the details really remain to be seen. 507 00:18:59,164 --> 00:19:00,065 So I'm watching 508 00:19:00,859 --> 00:19:02,779 how how that all plays out, 509 00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:03,600 including, 510 00:19:04,380 --> 00:19:06,640 you know, what rule makings, what safeguards 511 00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:09,759 for wildlife and clean water, 512 00:19:10,059 --> 00:19:10,880 get targeted. 513 00:19:12,059 --> 00:19:14,240 I'm gonna be looking at those, 514 00:19:14,619 --> 00:19:17,105 protected areas that were put in place by 515 00:19:17,105 --> 00:19:17,924 this administration 516 00:19:18,304 --> 00:19:20,724 and, you know, how the antiquities act itself, 517 00:19:20,784 --> 00:19:21,524 which is, 518 00:19:22,384 --> 00:19:23,044 a bedrock, 519 00:19:24,144 --> 00:19:26,085 law that an incredible conservation 520 00:19:26,384 --> 00:19:27,365 tool that, 521 00:19:27,984 --> 00:19:30,529 a lot of president Trump's allies have said 522 00:19:30,529 --> 00:19:32,549 should go, you know, after, 523 00:19:33,089 --> 00:19:35,329 you know, over a 100 years of of 524 00:19:35,329 --> 00:19:37,650 being the most important conservation tool we have. 525 00:19:37,650 --> 00:19:39,970 So just a lot of, lot of things 526 00:19:39,970 --> 00:19:41,509 to watch, those national monuments, 527 00:19:42,144 --> 00:19:42,804 and more. 528 00:19:43,505 --> 00:19:45,105 Only other thing I'm gonna add there is 529 00:19:45,105 --> 00:19:45,845 the who. 530 00:19:46,464 --> 00:19:48,464 Who's gonna be tasked with doing this stuff? 531 00:19:48,464 --> 00:19:50,625 We know Doug Burgum, almost certainly gonna be 532 00:19:50,625 --> 00:19:51,125 confirmed 533 00:19:51,585 --> 00:19:53,332 as interior secretary. Kate McGregor, back for a 534 00:19:53,332 --> 00:19:53,467 stint as deputy secretary. But then below that, 535 00:19:53,467 --> 00:19:54,085 who's gonna run the Bureau of Land Management? 536 00:19:55,984 --> 00:19:56,250 Who's 537 00:19:58,170 --> 00:19:59,450 But then, below that, who's gonna run the 538 00:19:59,450 --> 00:20:01,130 Bureau of Land Management? Who's gonna be in 539 00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:01,950 charge of 540 00:20:02,490 --> 00:20:05,529 USGS, which runs this board of geographic names 541 00:20:05,529 --> 00:20:06,589 that's tasked with 542 00:20:06,890 --> 00:20:09,755 doing stupid things like renaming Denali and the 543 00:20:09,755 --> 00:20:10,815 gulf of Mexico. 544 00:20:11,835 --> 00:20:13,434 A whole lot of dumb stuff that we 545 00:20:13,434 --> 00:20:14,875 didn't even have a chance to get to 546 00:20:14,875 --> 00:20:16,414 here that I'm sure we will 547 00:20:16,875 --> 00:20:19,674 eventually. But I think we'll call this great 548 00:20:19,674 --> 00:20:20,315 for now. 549 00:20:20,715 --> 00:20:21,535 Drew McConville, 550 00:20:22,154 --> 00:20:22,654 center, 551 00:20:23,115 --> 00:20:25,880 for American Progress. Thank you so much for 552 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,819 being back with us and walking us through 553 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:29,099 all the 554 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,799 terrible stuff we saw last night. Well, thanks, 555 00:20:31,799 --> 00:20:34,460 Kate. Thanks, Aaron. Appreciate you all covering this. 556 00:20:39,365 --> 00:20:41,125 Alright. Let's wrap up with a little good 557 00:20:41,125 --> 00:20:42,184 news, shall we? 558 00:20:42,644 --> 00:20:45,445 The Environmental Protection Agency has signed a first 559 00:20:45,445 --> 00:20:47,684 of its kind agreement with the Navajo Nation 560 00:20:47,684 --> 00:20:51,365 to transport 1,000,000 cubic yards of low grade 561 00:20:51,365 --> 00:20:54,559 radioactive waste from a former uranium mine near 562 00:20:54,559 --> 00:20:57,380 Gallup, New Mexico to an off reservation disposal 563 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:57,940 site. 564 00:20:58,319 --> 00:20:59,920 This mine is one of the largest and 565 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,960 highest risk uranium contamination sites on the Navajo 566 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:04,740 Nation according to the EPA. 567 00:21:05,759 --> 00:21:08,240 In 2020, researchers found that there are over 568 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:08,740 1200 569 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,974 abandoned uranium mines on the Navajo Nation. And 570 00:21:11,974 --> 00:21:14,875 a 2008 study found uranium contamination 571 00:21:15,414 --> 00:21:18,075 in 29 water sources across the reservation. 572 00:21:18,855 --> 00:21:21,174 The waste removal process will begin in early 573 00:21:21,174 --> 00:21:21,674 2025 574 00:21:21,974 --> 00:21:23,974 and take 6 to 8 years to complete 575 00:21:23,974 --> 00:21:25,194 according to the EPA. 576 00:21:25,679 --> 00:21:27,919 The disposal facility will be sealed once the 577 00:21:27,919 --> 00:21:28,899 cleanup is done. 578 00:21:29,759 --> 00:21:32,000 Now this brings up another important point that 579 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,079 we are certainly gonna be talking a lot 580 00:21:34,079 --> 00:21:37,059 about over the next 4 years, nuclear waste 581 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:37,619 disposal. 582 00:21:38,399 --> 00:21:41,575 Elected officials across the west, and this stretches 583 00:21:41,575 --> 00:21:42,875 across party lines, 584 00:21:43,255 --> 00:21:45,835 appear to be embracing nuclear energy 585 00:21:46,455 --> 00:21:47,674 despite the 586 00:21:48,134 --> 00:21:48,634 negative 587 00:21:49,095 --> 00:21:52,855 ongoing impact still today of uranium mining and 588 00:21:52,855 --> 00:21:54,795 nuclear waste and nuclear processing 589 00:21:55,494 --> 00:21:57,859 across the Colorado Plateau, especially 590 00:21:58,559 --> 00:21:59,380 in Arizona 591 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:00,580 and Utah 592 00:22:01,039 --> 00:22:02,580 and New Mexico, of course. 593 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,039 We're gonna be following this closely because as 594 00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:07,920 much as these politicians say they want clean 595 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:08,820 nuclear energy, 596 00:22:09,224 --> 00:22:10,825 no one has figured out where to put 597 00:22:10,825 --> 00:22:13,005 all that nuclear waste, which is decidedly 598 00:22:13,545 --> 00:22:14,365 not clean, 599 00:22:14,744 --> 00:22:18,184 and nobody's volunteering saying, yes, please put a 600 00:22:18,184 --> 00:22:20,365 nuclear waste dump in my backyard. 601 00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:32,900 Well, that's it for this episode. Send us 602 00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:34,275 your feedback, podcast@westernpriorities.org, 603 00:22:35,855 --> 00:22:37,295 and let us know what you're worried about 604 00:22:37,295 --> 00:22:38,355 as the Trump administration 605 00:22:38,654 --> 00:22:39,474 moves in. 606 00:22:40,255 --> 00:22:42,174 Thanks again to Drew for jumping on with 607 00:22:42,174 --> 00:22:44,335 us this morning, and thank you for listening 608 00:22:44,335 --> 00:22:45,075 to the landscape.