1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:10,320 Welcome to The Landscape, your show about America's 2 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,719 Parks and Public Lands. I'm Erin Weiss with 3 00:00:12,719 --> 00:00:15,335 the Center For Western Priorities in Denver. And 4 00:00:15,335 --> 00:00:18,135 I'm Kate Gretzinger in Salt Lake City. Today 5 00:00:18,135 --> 00:00:20,774 on the podcast, we're talking about trees, old 6 00:00:20,774 --> 00:00:21,995 trees to be exact. 7 00:00:22,375 --> 00:00:24,295 We called up one of our favorite forest 8 00:00:24,295 --> 00:00:27,414 scientists, doctor Dominic Della Sala, to talk about 9 00:00:27,414 --> 00:00:28,935 a recent op ed he wrote for the 10 00:00:28,935 --> 00:00:31,460 Seattle Times. In the piece, he raises the 11 00:00:31,460 --> 00:00:34,020 alarm about some mature and old growth forests 12 00:00:34,020 --> 00:00:36,259 that are currently on the chopping block and 13 00:00:36,259 --> 00:00:38,659 calls on president Biden to protect them before 14 00:00:38,659 --> 00:00:40,420 leaving office. We'll get to that in a 15 00:00:40,420 --> 00:00:42,039 minute, but first, the news. 16 00:00:42,594 --> 00:00:45,075 In a historic move last week, president Biden 17 00:00:45,075 --> 00:00:48,114 offered a formal apology for the atrocities committed 18 00:00:48,114 --> 00:00:50,934 at Indian boarding schools from the early 1800 19 00:00:51,314 --> 00:00:53,174 all the way through the 19 seventies. 20 00:00:53,875 --> 00:00:56,195 Tens of thousands of native children were removed 21 00:00:56,195 --> 00:00:58,829 from their homes and sent to these federally 22 00:00:58,969 --> 00:01:00,270 run boarding schools 23 00:01:00,649 --> 00:01:03,390 under the American policy of forced assimilation. 24 00:01:04,090 --> 00:01:06,890 A federal investigation released in July found that 25 00:01:06,890 --> 00:01:10,109 at least 900 children died at those schools. 26 00:01:10,745 --> 00:01:12,984 The president's speech took place at the Gila 27 00:01:12,984 --> 00:01:14,844 River Indian Community in Arizona. 28 00:01:15,385 --> 00:01:18,045 Interior secretary Deb Haaland, who spearheaded 29 00:01:18,344 --> 00:01:21,145 that government investigation into the history of boarding 30 00:01:21,145 --> 00:01:23,724 schools, joined president Biden there. 31 00:01:24,025 --> 00:01:25,165 She said, quote, 32 00:01:25,500 --> 00:01:28,079 I acknowledge that this trauma was perpetrated 33 00:01:28,380 --> 00:01:30,939 by the agency that I now lead, which 34 00:01:30,939 --> 00:01:32,859 is a reminder of the historic nature of 35 00:01:32,859 --> 00:01:36,159 her appointment as the first indigenous interior secretary. 36 00:01:37,020 --> 00:01:40,140 So far, president Biden has designated 2 national 37 00:01:40,140 --> 00:01:42,444 monuments at the request of Native American tribes 38 00:01:42,444 --> 00:01:45,165 in the west using the president's authority under 39 00:01:45,165 --> 00:01:48,605 the antiquities act. Those are Avikumay in Nevada 40 00:01:48,605 --> 00:01:49,344 and Bajanowavjo 41 00:01:49,885 --> 00:01:50,385 Ittaqoqveni, 42 00:01:51,085 --> 00:01:53,745 ancestral footprints of the Grand Canyon in Arizona. 43 00:01:54,659 --> 00:01:57,620 The Bears Ears National Monument draft management plan, 44 00:01:57,620 --> 00:02:00,019 which was released earlier this year, is also 45 00:02:00,019 --> 00:02:02,500 the first management plan to be cowritten by 46 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:03,000 tribes. 47 00:02:03,540 --> 00:02:06,180 Indigenous communities across the west are calling on 48 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:09,395 president Biden to protect additional areas of spiritual 49 00:02:09,395 --> 00:02:11,814 and cultural importance as national monuments. 50 00:02:12,194 --> 00:02:15,235 That includes the proposed Chuckwalla National Monument in 51 00:02:15,235 --> 00:02:15,735 California, 52 00:02:16,275 --> 00:02:18,615 Satitla Medicine Lake Highlands in California, 53 00:02:18,915 --> 00:02:21,655 and Quetzan National Monument also in California. 54 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,099 President Biden has the opportunity to make conservation 55 00:02:25,319 --> 00:02:29,500 history while further addressing and acknowledging historical injustices 56 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:31,740 by designating these monuments. 57 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:35,474 Quick note here. Doctor Della Sala mentions the 58 00:02:35,555 --> 00:02:37,555 National Old Growth Amendment a few times in 59 00:02:37,555 --> 00:02:40,034 this episode. That's a plan the Forest Service 60 00:02:40,034 --> 00:02:41,955 is working on right now that will determine 61 00:02:41,955 --> 00:02:44,675 how the agency manages old growth forests in 62 00:02:44,675 --> 00:02:46,135 response to climate change. 63 00:02:46,514 --> 00:02:49,635 The draft plan or environmental impact statement came 64 00:02:49,635 --> 00:02:52,169 out in June. A 90 day comment period 65 00:02:52,169 --> 00:02:54,650 for the draft EIS closed in September, and 66 00:02:54,650 --> 00:02:56,909 a final decision is expected in December. 67 00:03:00,889 --> 00:03:03,449 Our guest today is doctor Dominic Della Sala, 68 00:03:03,449 --> 00:03:05,229 chief scientist at Wild Heritage, 69 00:03:05,555 --> 00:03:07,314 which is a project of the Earth Island 70 00:03:07,314 --> 00:03:07,814 Institute. 71 00:03:08,275 --> 00:03:10,455 We had doctor Della Sala on the podcast 72 00:03:10,594 --> 00:03:12,675 twice last year to talk about the Biden 73 00:03:12,675 --> 00:03:13,175 administration's 74 00:03:13,474 --> 00:03:16,694 plans to protect mature and old growth forests. 75 00:03:16,995 --> 00:03:18,675 So we were surprised to read a recent 76 00:03:18,675 --> 00:03:20,775 op ed by him in the Seattle Times 77 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:22,759 in which he says the forest service is 78 00:03:22,759 --> 00:03:24,919 still planning to allow logging in some old 79 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:25,819 growth forests. 80 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,599 Doctor Gellasala, thanks for joining us today. We're 81 00:03:28,599 --> 00:03:30,599 excited to learn more about why these forests 82 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:31,740 are still at risk. 83 00:03:32,759 --> 00:03:34,360 Thanks for having me on again. It's a 84 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:34,860 pleasure. 85 00:03:35,754 --> 00:03:37,754 So let's back up and start with a 86 00:03:37,754 --> 00:03:39,834 basic question for those who haven't listened to 87 00:03:39,834 --> 00:03:42,715 our other episodes with you. What are old 88 00:03:42,715 --> 00:03:44,875 growth and mature forests, and why are they 89 00:03:44,875 --> 00:03:46,254 so important to protect? 90 00:03:47,034 --> 00:03:49,294 Yeah. Great question. I've spent, 91 00:03:49,754 --> 00:03:52,889 4 decades of my life in these forests 92 00:03:52,949 --> 00:03:54,090 all around the globe, 93 00:03:54,389 --> 00:03:56,150 and so I have a pretty good handle 94 00:03:56,150 --> 00:03:56,650 on 95 00:03:57,030 --> 00:03:57,530 what 96 00:03:57,909 --> 00:03:58,409 qualifies 97 00:03:58,709 --> 00:04:00,009 as an older forest. 98 00:04:00,310 --> 00:04:00,810 And 99 00:04:01,269 --> 00:04:03,430 I think a lot of listeners know what 100 00:04:03,430 --> 00:04:04,870 that is too. You could just take a 101 00:04:04,870 --> 00:04:06,715 hike in the coast redwoods, 102 00:04:07,414 --> 00:04:09,675 and you know you're in these majestic 103 00:04:10,134 --> 00:04:12,155 cathedral forest or in the Olympics, 104 00:04:12,775 --> 00:04:15,014 on the Olympic rainforest or up on the 105 00:04:15,014 --> 00:04:17,035 Tongass rainforest. I mean, there's 106 00:04:17,495 --> 00:04:20,129 hands down no argument that those are old 107 00:04:20,129 --> 00:04:21,970 growth forests. We know what they look like. 108 00:04:21,970 --> 00:04:24,150 We know what they feel and smell like. 109 00:04:24,770 --> 00:04:27,990 And as scientists, we've been quantifying their ecological 110 00:04:28,370 --> 00:04:30,689 values now for, as I mentioned, at least 111 00:04:30,689 --> 00:04:31,430 4 decades. 112 00:04:32,454 --> 00:04:35,495 And now we know some surprised findings within 113 00:04:35,495 --> 00:04:37,654 the last decade or so that they play 114 00:04:37,654 --> 00:04:38,794 a really strategically 115 00:04:39,175 --> 00:04:42,074 important role as natural climate solutions 116 00:04:42,694 --> 00:04:45,435 in drawing down our carbon pollution 117 00:04:46,229 --> 00:04:47,849 and storing it long term 118 00:04:48,229 --> 00:04:49,610 in the biggest trees 119 00:04:49,910 --> 00:04:52,569 and in the soils and the surrounding vegetation. 120 00:04:53,189 --> 00:04:55,930 And they cleanse the air we breathe, 121 00:04:56,310 --> 00:04:58,629 and they give us clean drinking water, and 122 00:04:58,629 --> 00:05:01,209 they are the best places to find wildlife. 123 00:05:01,349 --> 00:05:04,044 So all of those values are some of 124 00:05:04,044 --> 00:05:04,865 their ecosystem 125 00:05:05,165 --> 00:05:05,665 parts 126 00:05:06,044 --> 00:05:08,925 that are unique to those forests compared to, 127 00:05:08,925 --> 00:05:11,425 for example, a plantation or a clear cut 128 00:05:11,564 --> 00:05:13,665 that has lost most of those values. 129 00:05:14,899 --> 00:05:17,540 Awesome. And I have another question here related 130 00:05:17,540 --> 00:05:19,399 to how we define these trees. 131 00:05:20,100 --> 00:05:21,480 Is the Biden administration's 132 00:05:22,259 --> 00:05:24,899 definition of mature and old growth the same 133 00:05:24,899 --> 00:05:27,060 as yours, or is there an, 134 00:05:27,620 --> 00:05:28,680 disconnect there? 135 00:05:29,925 --> 00:05:32,584 I think that yes and no. And 136 00:05:33,125 --> 00:05:35,764 that I don't think that there's any argument 137 00:05:35,764 --> 00:05:37,845 about what an old growth forest is. We 138 00:05:37,845 --> 00:05:40,904 know what that is. We look at them 139 00:05:41,044 --> 00:05:41,544 as 140 00:05:42,060 --> 00:05:45,500 not only these cathedral forests, but scientists can 141 00:05:45,500 --> 00:05:46,000 quantify 142 00:05:46,779 --> 00:05:47,680 their structural 143 00:05:48,379 --> 00:05:50,540 differences in those forests compared to a clear 144 00:05:50,540 --> 00:05:52,319 cut. And so the height of trees, 145 00:05:52,779 --> 00:05:55,420 the age of trees, the diameter at breast 146 00:05:55,420 --> 00:05:55,920 height, 147 00:05:56,435 --> 00:05:59,654 the diversity of layering in the tree canopy 148 00:05:59,714 --> 00:06:01,095 where you have a penthouse, 149 00:06:01,794 --> 00:06:02,615 mid story, 150 00:06:02,995 --> 00:06:04,854 a basement, so to speak, 151 00:06:05,154 --> 00:06:08,274 of different structural layers, and you've got death 152 00:06:08,274 --> 00:06:11,074 and life linked together in those forests. You 153 00:06:11,074 --> 00:06:14,209 see the dead trees play a critically important 154 00:06:14,750 --> 00:06:17,149 role in the ecology of those forests, whether 155 00:06:17,149 --> 00:06:19,709 they're standing as snags or down on the 156 00:06:19,709 --> 00:06:21,789 ground as logs, and then you have a 157 00:06:21,789 --> 00:06:24,269 diversity of plants and wildlife. So we know 158 00:06:24,269 --> 00:06:25,250 what those are. 159 00:06:25,694 --> 00:06:28,574 The argument is around mature. And the reason 160 00:06:28,574 --> 00:06:29,954 why mature is important 161 00:06:30,334 --> 00:06:31,634 and why at least Biden 162 00:06:31,935 --> 00:06:34,334 got this right in his executive order, he 163 00:06:34,334 --> 00:06:37,214 said mature and old growth and not just 164 00:06:37,214 --> 00:06:39,879 old growth, is because we've wiped out most 165 00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:41,800 of the old growth in the lower 48 166 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:42,300 states. 167 00:06:42,759 --> 00:06:45,080 And the mature forest are only a few 168 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:46,060 decades away 169 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,339 from acquiring those characteristics that we would consider 170 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:51,175 old growth. So we've got to look at 171 00:06:51,175 --> 00:06:52,394 this as a protection 172 00:06:52,854 --> 00:06:53,914 and restoration 173 00:06:54,694 --> 00:06:56,235 approach if we're gonna maintain 174 00:06:56,535 --> 00:07:00,535 those ecosystem values, especially in a rapidly shifting 175 00:07:00,535 --> 00:07:02,375 climate. I think we have a lot of 176 00:07:02,375 --> 00:07:04,954 agreement on old growth in terms of how 177 00:07:05,139 --> 00:07:06,120 our 2 teams 178 00:07:06,819 --> 00:07:09,000 assessed how much of it is out there. 179 00:07:09,060 --> 00:07:10,520 I think we, probably 180 00:07:10,900 --> 00:07:11,400 apart 181 00:07:11,860 --> 00:07:14,439 more so on the mature and what qualifies 182 00:07:14,500 --> 00:07:15,240 as mature. 183 00:07:15,779 --> 00:07:16,680 And, unfortunately, 184 00:07:17,139 --> 00:07:18,279 the federal government, 185 00:07:18,604 --> 00:07:20,544 the forest service, and the BLM 186 00:07:20,925 --> 00:07:24,125 are leaving mature out there for additional logging 187 00:07:24,125 --> 00:07:26,704 because quite frankly, I think they freaked out 188 00:07:26,925 --> 00:07:28,384 when they realized 46% 189 00:07:28,764 --> 00:07:29,664 of their inventory 190 00:07:30,365 --> 00:07:31,104 was mature 191 00:07:31,589 --> 00:07:32,569 and 17% 192 00:07:33,110 --> 00:07:34,730 was old growth. So that, 193 00:07:35,110 --> 00:07:37,670 to them, must mean up to 2 thirds 194 00:07:37,670 --> 00:07:39,830 of their land base, they couldn't log in 195 00:07:39,830 --> 00:07:40,330 anymore. 196 00:07:40,949 --> 00:07:42,870 And I think that's why we don't have 197 00:07:42,870 --> 00:07:45,110 any protections for mature, and we only have, 198 00:07:45,110 --> 00:07:46,649 you know, marginal protections 199 00:07:47,164 --> 00:07:49,725 for old growth in the old growth, national 200 00:07:49,725 --> 00:07:50,225 amendment. 201 00:07:51,245 --> 00:07:53,164 So I wanna just quickly jump in and 202 00:07:53,164 --> 00:07:56,365 clarify for folks that the Biden administration did 203 00:07:56,365 --> 00:07:59,084 its own inventory of mature and old growth. 204 00:07:59,084 --> 00:08:01,830 And then, doctor Della Sala, you and your 205 00:08:01,830 --> 00:08:04,009 team did the 1st independent, 206 00:08:05,589 --> 00:08:07,750 catalog of old growth and mature force in 207 00:08:07,750 --> 00:08:08,970 the US. Is that correct? 208 00:08:09,430 --> 00:08:11,209 Yeah. It is. And there were some similarities 209 00:08:11,430 --> 00:08:14,389 in our methodologies, but some differences too. So 210 00:08:14,389 --> 00:08:15,495 I can go over those 211 00:08:16,214 --> 00:08:17,415 if you'd like. Yeah. Let's come back to 212 00:08:17,415 --> 00:08:18,154 that. Aaron? 213 00:08:18,694 --> 00:08:20,875 Yeah. I mean, I I I think you're 214 00:08:21,975 --> 00:08:24,294 you hit on our my next question here, 215 00:08:24,294 --> 00:08:26,454 which is getting into a wording choice that 216 00:08:26,454 --> 00:08:28,375 you put in this op ed in the 217 00:08:28,375 --> 00:08:29,274 Seattle Times 218 00:08:29,669 --> 00:08:32,070 where you called on president Biden to do 219 00:08:32,070 --> 00:08:32,889 more to protect 220 00:08:33,509 --> 00:08:34,089 quote older 221 00:08:34,470 --> 00:08:37,750 trees as opposed to just old before leaving 222 00:08:37,750 --> 00:08:38,250 office. 223 00:08:38,710 --> 00:08:41,690 So walk us through what the Biden administration 224 00:08:41,909 --> 00:08:44,389 has done so far in terms of those 225 00:08:44,389 --> 00:08:45,210 kinds of protections 226 00:08:45,725 --> 00:08:47,884 and what more you think needs to be 227 00:08:47,884 --> 00:08:51,024 done in order to get at least some 228 00:08:51,085 --> 00:08:52,625 or however many, 229 00:08:53,805 --> 00:08:55,105 percent of those 230 00:08:55,485 --> 00:08:56,384 older trees 231 00:08:56,764 --> 00:08:57,264 into 232 00:08:57,805 --> 00:08:59,105 old growth status? 233 00:09:00,059 --> 00:09:02,460 Well, yeah, there's the science part of it, 234 00:09:02,460 --> 00:09:04,300 and then there's the policy part of it. 235 00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:07,360 And as I mentioned in my Seattle Times 236 00:09:07,420 --> 00:09:08,399 op ed, unfortunately, 237 00:09:09,180 --> 00:09:11,180 can I have some fries with that nothing 238 00:09:11,180 --> 00:09:14,379 burger? Yeah. Oh, dear. Because that's what we 239 00:09:14,379 --> 00:09:16,804 got was a big fat nothing burger, which 240 00:09:16,804 --> 00:09:19,764 was incredibly disappointing because we worked for 4 241 00:09:19,764 --> 00:09:20,904 years with the administration 242 00:09:21,924 --> 00:09:24,884 on getting the president to recognize the importance 243 00:09:24,884 --> 00:09:26,804 of mature and old growth forest, which he 244 00:09:26,804 --> 00:09:29,230 did at Earth Day back in I think 245 00:09:29,230 --> 00:09:30,129 it was 2021 246 00:09:30,509 --> 00:09:32,610 or 2022, whenever that was. 247 00:09:32,910 --> 00:09:35,730 And he directed the federal agencies to inventory 248 00:09:35,870 --> 00:09:38,350 the nation's mature and old growth forest for, 249 00:09:38,350 --> 00:09:42,315 quote, conservation purposes, end quote. The problem is 250 00:09:42,315 --> 00:09:44,475 they did the inventory, but they're doing no 251 00:09:44,475 --> 00:09:48,095 conservation. So it essentially is a long term 252 00:09:48,475 --> 00:09:51,034 plan for continuing to log in these forests, 253 00:09:51,034 --> 00:09:53,674 albeit at a lower rate than what was 254 00:09:53,674 --> 00:09:54,174 historic. 255 00:09:54,809 --> 00:09:58,169 And it completely keeps mature forest on the 256 00:09:58,169 --> 00:09:59,070 chopping block, 257 00:09:59,929 --> 00:10:02,809 and the the excuse that they give in 258 00:10:02,809 --> 00:10:05,450 their old growth amendment is these forests are 259 00:10:05,450 --> 00:10:07,629 gonna burn up, be eaten by insects, 260 00:10:08,264 --> 00:10:11,165 destroyed by climate change, and the only solution 261 00:10:11,785 --> 00:10:12,605 is chainsaws. 262 00:10:13,225 --> 00:10:15,705 And we in the scientific community know that 263 00:10:15,705 --> 00:10:16,764 that's not reality, 264 00:10:17,144 --> 00:10:19,705 and it's unfortunate that they're hiding the the 265 00:10:19,705 --> 00:10:20,445 ball behind 266 00:10:20,985 --> 00:10:23,325 natural processes that are changing 267 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:27,039 because of climate change, but logging those forests 268 00:10:27,039 --> 00:10:30,159 is not the solution. Protecting them from logging 269 00:10:30,159 --> 00:10:32,720 as natural climate solutions will give them the 270 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,340 best resistant properties 271 00:10:34,879 --> 00:10:37,600 and resilient properties to get through this climate 272 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:38,419 change bottleneck 273 00:10:38,855 --> 00:10:39,754 that we currently are in. 274 00:10:41,894 --> 00:10:42,394 So, 275 00:10:44,295 --> 00:10:45,815 I wanna come back to that sort of 276 00:10:45,815 --> 00:10:46,795 carbon sequestration, 277 00:10:48,535 --> 00:10:51,115 question because there were some headlines recently that 278 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,080 said carbon sinks are failing, and I wanna 279 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:55,379 have you sort of, 280 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,000 ground truth that for us. But before we 281 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,080 move on to that, you mentioned in the 282 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,080 op ed that there are currently plans to 283 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,120 log in National Forest that contain these mature 284 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:06,339 and old growth trees. 285 00:11:06,695 --> 00:11:08,075 Which forests are 286 00:11:08,455 --> 00:11:08,955 are, 287 00:11:09,335 --> 00:11:10,634 you referring to there? 288 00:11:11,335 --> 00:11:13,654 Yeah. There's over a dozen or so that 289 00:11:13,654 --> 00:11:16,615 are, that have been identified by conservation groups 290 00:11:16,615 --> 00:11:18,375 that are still on the chopping block. Those 291 00:11:18,375 --> 00:11:19,914 sales have already gone forward, 292 00:11:20,470 --> 00:11:22,950 and we continue to oppose them, and they're 293 00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:25,990 across the whole country. So I would refer 294 00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:28,730 folks to go to the climate dash forest.org 295 00:11:29,429 --> 00:11:29,929 website 296 00:11:30,470 --> 00:11:33,190 and look for the threatened forest because they 297 00:11:33,190 --> 00:11:35,529 exist from Oregon to Vermont, 298 00:11:36,365 --> 00:11:39,084 and there's widely scattered. There are places in 299 00:11:39,084 --> 00:11:40,384 Montana, for example. 300 00:11:40,845 --> 00:11:42,605 One place that I've spent quite a bit 301 00:11:42,605 --> 00:11:45,884 of time is the Black Ram project area 302 00:11:45,884 --> 00:11:46,704 in Northwest 303 00:11:47,084 --> 00:11:47,584 Montana. 304 00:11:48,284 --> 00:11:50,764 And, there was a really great article that 305 00:11:50,764 --> 00:11:51,504 was done 306 00:11:53,210 --> 00:11:55,950 on that area in terms of its its 307 00:11:56,090 --> 00:11:58,029 properties as a climate refuge. 308 00:11:58,730 --> 00:12:01,049 And that there are thousands of acres of 309 00:12:01,049 --> 00:12:04,590 old growth forest in that, proposed climate refuge 310 00:12:05,355 --> 00:12:08,075 that would be subject to clear cut logging. 311 00:12:08,075 --> 00:12:10,235 The forest service has already got that on 312 00:12:10,235 --> 00:12:12,095 the chopping block. It's been blocked 313 00:12:12,394 --> 00:12:14,075 in the courts, but it could come up 314 00:12:14,075 --> 00:12:14,575 again. 315 00:12:15,274 --> 00:12:17,835 And the agency has examples of this all 316 00:12:17,835 --> 00:12:19,434 over the country. In my neck of the 317 00:12:19,434 --> 00:12:21,970 woods in Southern Oregon, the Bureau of Land 318 00:12:21,970 --> 00:12:23,990 Management is constantly plucking 319 00:12:24,529 --> 00:12:26,949 old trees out of its so called fuels 320 00:12:27,409 --> 00:12:30,389 management operations, which in fact not only destroy 321 00:12:30,929 --> 00:12:33,250 the climate properties of those forests, but they 322 00:12:33,250 --> 00:12:36,115 raise the fire hazards by taking out the 323 00:12:36,115 --> 00:12:38,834 fire resistant tree and leaving the logging slash 324 00:12:38,834 --> 00:12:41,075 behind. You can't treat it all even though 325 00:12:41,075 --> 00:12:42,754 they burn it in piles. You can't get 326 00:12:42,754 --> 00:12:44,674 to all of it, and those areas have 327 00:12:44,674 --> 00:12:47,815 a tendency to burn in high intensity fires. 328 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,360 So we're seeing this all over the country, 329 00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:53,059 and there are many examples of where, you 330 00:12:53,059 --> 00:12:54,980 know, Old Forest is still on the chopping 331 00:12:54,980 --> 00:12:57,620 block and will remain on the chopping block 332 00:12:57,620 --> 00:13:00,100 because the old growth national amendment is a 333 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:00,919 nothing burger. 334 00:13:02,074 --> 00:13:03,774 So what would a meaningful 335 00:13:04,634 --> 00:13:07,115 protection look like? Would it be promulgated as 336 00:13:07,115 --> 00:13:07,774 a rule, 337 00:13:08,554 --> 00:13:09,534 from the USDA? 338 00:13:09,914 --> 00:13:11,674 Is there a faster way to do this? 339 00:13:11,674 --> 00:13:13,054 Like, what is the ideal 340 00:13:13,919 --> 00:13:16,000 way to sort of extend protections for these 341 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,700 areas right now with, 342 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:19,600 you know, the clock ticking down on the 343 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:20,419 Biden administration? 344 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,519 Yeah. I think the the best way to 345 00:13:23,519 --> 00:13:25,039 do it is for the White House to 346 00:13:25,039 --> 00:13:27,299 intervene and say, look. We want you to 347 00:13:27,975 --> 00:13:30,714 fix the problems that are in your environmental 348 00:13:30,774 --> 00:13:32,615 impact statement because we're gonna still get a 349 00:13:32,615 --> 00:13:33,914 final impact statement, 350 00:13:34,695 --> 00:13:36,794 and we're gonna get a record of decision. 351 00:13:37,335 --> 00:13:39,654 So that's where you can fix this, and 352 00:13:39,654 --> 00:13:42,240 they can fix it by adopting a strong 353 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:43,460 conservation alternative 354 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,799 that takes off the table once and for 355 00:13:46,799 --> 00:13:48,960 all all of those mature and old growth 356 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:52,899 forest because they are our best natural climate 357 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,600 solution. So if we are going to go 358 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:56,100 through 359 00:13:56,485 --> 00:13:59,764 some really horrific conditions, if we continue on 360 00:13:59,764 --> 00:14:03,205 this path of unmitigated fossil use, we're already 361 00:14:03,205 --> 00:14:05,225 seeing this with supercharged hurricanes, 362 00:14:05,684 --> 00:14:07,065 big wildfire events. 363 00:14:07,524 --> 00:14:09,684 We've gotta get off of fossil fuels, and 364 00:14:09,684 --> 00:14:10,745 we've gotta protect 365 00:14:11,250 --> 00:14:14,370 our natural climate solutions if we're going to 366 00:14:14,370 --> 00:14:18,049 slow down runaway climate chaos. That needs to 367 00:14:18,049 --> 00:14:19,029 be this administration's 368 00:14:19,649 --> 00:14:20,149 parting 369 00:14:20,529 --> 00:14:21,750 gift legacy 370 00:14:22,129 --> 00:14:25,024 to the planet so that they can comply 371 00:14:25,245 --> 00:14:27,725 with what the president did, which was he's, 372 00:14:28,045 --> 00:14:28,545 signatory 373 00:14:29,085 --> 00:14:31,024 on the Glasgow Forest pledge 374 00:14:31,485 --> 00:14:34,684 that has pledged to end forest losses by 375 00:14:34,684 --> 00:14:35,184 2030. 376 00:14:35,809 --> 00:14:37,490 So how could you sign on to a 377 00:14:37,490 --> 00:14:39,589 pledge and then be one of the leading 378 00:14:39,809 --> 00:14:41,990 nations that's degrading its forests? 379 00:14:42,370 --> 00:14:44,370 So the White House can fix this, but 380 00:14:44,370 --> 00:14:46,309 time is indeed running out. 381 00:14:47,490 --> 00:14:49,565 I wanna talk about the Tongass a little 382 00:14:49,565 --> 00:14:50,945 bit. The the Biden administration 383 00:14:51,404 --> 00:14:53,965 did restore some protections for the Tongass that 384 00:14:53,965 --> 00:14:57,105 had been taken away by the Trump administration. 385 00:14:58,365 --> 00:14:58,865 Those 386 00:14:59,245 --> 00:15:01,904 are are final now, but now you have 387 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,940 senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska 388 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:08,519 with a bill that would privatize over a 389 00:15:08,519 --> 00:15:09,019 115,000 390 00:15:09,879 --> 00:15:11,419 acres of the Tongass, including 391 00:15:12,039 --> 00:15:12,539 80,000 392 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,240 acres of prime old growth. That bill has 393 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:16,940 already passed out of committee 394 00:15:17,735 --> 00:15:19,034 in the senate. So 395 00:15:19,574 --> 00:15:22,534 the threats here are obviously not or and 396 00:15:22,534 --> 00:15:24,154 the protections potentially 397 00:15:24,615 --> 00:15:27,095 not just at the administrative level when you 398 00:15:27,095 --> 00:15:27,595 have 399 00:15:28,134 --> 00:15:31,034 congress running around also trying to privatize 400 00:15:31,679 --> 00:15:32,419 these forests. 401 00:15:33,279 --> 00:15:34,419 What's the political 402 00:15:35,679 --> 00:15:36,820 landscape here 403 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,179 in terms of 404 00:15:39,039 --> 00:15:39,539 protecting 405 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,299 old growth and, 406 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:43,700 and or trying to 407 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,500 get congress to do the right thing here? 408 00:15:47,174 --> 00:15:49,014 I'm so glad you brought up the Tongass. 409 00:15:49,014 --> 00:15:51,174 That forest is near and dear to my 410 00:15:51,174 --> 00:15:53,355 heart, and I cut my intellectual 411 00:15:53,815 --> 00:15:54,315 ecological 412 00:15:54,695 --> 00:15:55,995 teeth on the Tongass, 413 00:15:56,855 --> 00:15:59,014 in the early 19 nineties doing some of 414 00:15:59,014 --> 00:16:02,039 the first old growth, studies up in that 415 00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:03,799 neck of the woods. And the Tongass is 416 00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:04,299 remarkable. 417 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,120 It is, the nation's tops on old growth 418 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,879 forest. There's over 5,000,000 acres. It's tops on 419 00:16:11,879 --> 00:16:15,695 the nation's roadless areas over 9,000,000 acres, and 420 00:16:15,695 --> 00:16:19,075 its tops on the nation's natural climate solutions 421 00:16:19,215 --> 00:16:20,034 with storing 422 00:16:20,335 --> 00:16:21,634 20% of 423 00:16:22,014 --> 00:16:25,394 the entire carbon across the national forest system. 424 00:16:25,615 --> 00:16:26,914 It's the best possibility 425 00:16:27,215 --> 00:16:30,034 for a natural climate solution in Southeast Alaska. 426 00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:32,809 And yet Lisa Murkowski has been trying to 427 00:16:32,809 --> 00:16:34,670 privatize the Tongass repeatedly. 428 00:16:35,129 --> 00:16:36,590 It keeps coming up. 429 00:16:37,049 --> 00:16:37,549 And, 430 00:16:38,410 --> 00:16:38,910 unfortunately, 431 00:16:39,610 --> 00:16:42,330 this one, as you mentioned, passed out of 432 00:16:42,330 --> 00:16:42,830 committee. 433 00:16:43,625 --> 00:16:44,664 It could get, 434 00:16:45,065 --> 00:16:47,544 ramrod through the lame duck. It could get 435 00:16:47,544 --> 00:16:49,865 attached to the farm bill. There are many 436 00:16:49,865 --> 00:16:52,985 different vehicles that this could move on. And 437 00:16:52,985 --> 00:16:53,725 the opposition 438 00:16:54,184 --> 00:16:56,524 has been coming from some in the indigenous 439 00:16:56,664 --> 00:16:57,804 community like, 440 00:16:58,399 --> 00:17:01,220 the indigenous elder Wanda Cope, 441 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,680 who wrote an op ed in the Juneau 442 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,299 Empire opposing it. 443 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,740 And I sent a letter including a 125 444 00:17:09,279 --> 00:17:09,779 scientists 445 00:17:10,404 --> 00:17:12,244 to the White House saying, when this comes 446 00:17:12,244 --> 00:17:12,744 up, 447 00:17:13,365 --> 00:17:15,944 please do everything you can to block it. 448 00:17:16,244 --> 00:17:16,644 And, 449 00:17:17,365 --> 00:17:17,865 actually, 450 00:17:18,164 --> 00:17:19,765 I have an op ed on my screen 451 00:17:19,765 --> 00:17:21,365 right now that I plan to send to 452 00:17:21,365 --> 00:17:22,585 the Juno Empire, 453 00:17:22,909 --> 00:17:24,529 which is the state publication, 454 00:17:25,149 --> 00:17:27,390 right in the capital that says this needs 455 00:17:27,390 --> 00:17:29,169 to be stopped in its tracks. 456 00:17:29,470 --> 00:17:32,130 It's opposed by members of the indigenous community. 457 00:17:32,349 --> 00:17:35,230 It's opposed by conservation scientists. It would give 458 00:17:35,230 --> 00:17:35,730 away 459 00:17:36,115 --> 00:17:38,914 all the town Tonga's values across those acres 460 00:17:38,914 --> 00:17:39,654 to developers 461 00:17:40,034 --> 00:17:42,835 and logging interest at a time when we 462 00:17:42,835 --> 00:17:44,454 need those in protection 463 00:17:44,914 --> 00:17:46,454 as natural climate solutions. 464 00:17:48,519 --> 00:17:51,500 I wanna ask about what the timber industry 465 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,140 would look like without access 466 00:17:54,599 --> 00:17:57,579 to these mature or old growth forests. 467 00:17:58,039 --> 00:18:01,019 Obviously I mean, fundamentally, that's the 468 00:18:02,224 --> 00:18:03,845 the pressure point here is 469 00:18:04,465 --> 00:18:07,345 timber industry says we need these trees because 470 00:18:07,345 --> 00:18:10,005 we are producing timber products, whether it's 471 00:18:10,384 --> 00:18:13,265 paper products or lumber for for housing or 472 00:18:13,265 --> 00:18:15,765 furniture or anything else. So 473 00:18:17,099 --> 00:18:19,339 take all the mature, all the old growth 474 00:18:19,339 --> 00:18:20,160 off the table. 475 00:18:20,619 --> 00:18:21,279 Is there 476 00:18:21,660 --> 00:18:25,759 enough capacity then to meet America's lumber needs 477 00:18:25,820 --> 00:18:26,640 just in 478 00:18:27,259 --> 00:18:27,759 private, 479 00:18:28,220 --> 00:18:30,400 younger, faster growing forests, 480 00:18:31,784 --> 00:18:33,544 or is there a risk that if you 481 00:18:33,544 --> 00:18:35,304 protect all of the mature forests in the 482 00:18:35,304 --> 00:18:35,804 US, 483 00:18:36,184 --> 00:18:37,404 you then unintentionally 484 00:18:37,704 --> 00:18:40,204 create an incentive for old growth logging 485 00:18:40,585 --> 00:18:42,605 in other countries with fewer protections? 486 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,640 Yeah. There's a lot in that question. Thanks 487 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,360 for asking it. So I'm gonna start with 488 00:18:48,360 --> 00:18:51,799 kind of this Uber overview with the national 489 00:18:51,799 --> 00:18:54,059 forests are a drop in the wood basket. 490 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,820 There's only about 4% 491 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,144 of the nation's total wood supply that comes 492 00:18:59,224 --> 00:19:00,445 from the national forest. 493 00:19:00,984 --> 00:19:01,964 Of that 4%, 494 00:19:02,265 --> 00:19:03,325 only a fraction 495 00:19:03,705 --> 00:19:05,705 would be coming from mature and old growth 496 00:19:05,705 --> 00:19:07,644 forest. There's plenty of places 497 00:19:08,025 --> 00:19:10,265 for wood supply that we don't need to 498 00:19:10,265 --> 00:19:11,005 be logging 499 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,740 what are giving us the 500 00:19:14,279 --> 00:19:14,779 absolute 501 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:15,980 critical 502 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:18,359 values that we need to get through the 503 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:19,180 climate crisis. 504 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:22,599 And I'll give you two examples where the 505 00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:23,900 transition is occurring, 506 00:19:24,325 --> 00:19:26,965 and those transitions need to be aided by 507 00:19:26,965 --> 00:19:29,845 federal dollars. So instead of investing in below 508 00:19:29,845 --> 00:19:31,144 cost timber sales, 509 00:19:31,445 --> 00:19:33,845 which give away those trees to the timber 510 00:19:33,845 --> 00:19:34,345 industry, 511 00:19:34,884 --> 00:19:38,529 invest in retooling mills to accept small logs, 512 00:19:38,529 --> 00:19:40,390 invest in value added manufacturing, 513 00:19:41,410 --> 00:19:43,190 invest in helping to diversify 514 00:19:43,490 --> 00:19:45,809 those local economies like what was done with 515 00:19:45,809 --> 00:19:48,529 the Northwest Forest Plan in the early 19 516 00:19:48,529 --> 00:19:49,029 nineties. 517 00:19:49,414 --> 00:19:51,414 And so the two places where this is 518 00:19:51,414 --> 00:19:54,375 happening that are exemplary is the Siuslaw National 519 00:19:54,375 --> 00:19:56,934 Forest in Oregon, which was one of the 520 00:19:56,934 --> 00:19:59,494 early adopters of the Northwest Forest Plan. They 521 00:19:59,494 --> 00:20:01,355 got out of the business of old growth 522 00:20:01,575 --> 00:20:02,794 and had been logging, 523 00:20:03,549 --> 00:20:06,849 in secondary for us with relatively little opposition 524 00:20:07,150 --> 00:20:09,869 and keeping their supply moving. The other place 525 00:20:09,869 --> 00:20:10,769 is the Tongass. 526 00:20:11,710 --> 00:20:13,710 Now I took this on my team and 527 00:20:13,710 --> 00:20:15,410 I took this on in 2009. 528 00:20:15,710 --> 00:20:17,250 We asked secretary Vilsack 529 00:20:17,744 --> 00:20:18,484 to transition 530 00:20:18,785 --> 00:20:20,944 the Tongass out of old growth logging. And 531 00:20:20,944 --> 00:20:23,265 at the time, they said we need 30 532 00:20:23,265 --> 00:20:25,424 years of old growth trees to get the 533 00:20:25,424 --> 00:20:25,924 industry, 534 00:20:26,944 --> 00:20:27,684 their product 535 00:20:28,065 --> 00:20:29,684 and second growth forest 536 00:20:30,109 --> 00:20:31,730 ready for, you know, another 537 00:20:32,109 --> 00:20:34,910 level of logging. And I questioned where that 538 00:20:34,910 --> 00:20:37,309 number came from, and we hired a bunch 539 00:20:37,309 --> 00:20:39,470 of field crews on the ground. They went 540 00:20:39,470 --> 00:20:41,309 out there, did a bunch of inventory, and 541 00:20:41,309 --> 00:20:42,130 lo and behold, 542 00:20:42,755 --> 00:20:45,394 there was a more than enough trees in 543 00:20:45,394 --> 00:20:47,975 the 55 to 60 year old categories 544 00:20:48,355 --> 00:20:49,815 along existing roads 545 00:20:50,195 --> 00:20:53,475 on a much smaller logging footprint that would 546 00:20:53,475 --> 00:20:56,669 meet the timber volume needs. All that needs 547 00:20:56,669 --> 00:20:59,329 to happen there is to change the infrastructure 548 00:20:59,710 --> 00:21:00,529 of the mills 549 00:21:00,909 --> 00:21:02,609 to accept more logs, 550 00:21:03,230 --> 00:21:05,169 stay on the existing footprint. 551 00:21:05,630 --> 00:21:08,509 That transition is underway on the Tongass, but 552 00:21:08,509 --> 00:21:10,589 it gets derailed every time we get an 553 00:21:10,589 --> 00:21:11,089 administration 554 00:21:11,924 --> 00:21:14,404 that comes in that wants to do logging 555 00:21:14,404 --> 00:21:16,825 or whether every time we get, you know, 556 00:21:17,525 --> 00:21:19,924 an a push from the industry to go 557 00:21:19,924 --> 00:21:21,845 after more old growth. We have to push 558 00:21:21,845 --> 00:21:23,144 back and say no. 559 00:21:24,130 --> 00:21:26,309 Retool or go the way of the dinosaur 560 00:21:26,369 --> 00:21:28,470 because sooner or later, you're gonna overcut. 561 00:21:28,769 --> 00:21:31,250 And those old trees, the jobs and the 562 00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:33,909 products will all be gone. So the Tongass 563 00:21:33,970 --> 00:21:36,609 is unique in being able to make that 564 00:21:36,609 --> 00:21:39,054 shift when you still have about 90% of 565 00:21:39,054 --> 00:21:41,535 your old growth left, and you've got an 566 00:21:41,535 --> 00:21:44,335 administration that wants to move the industry in 567 00:21:44,335 --> 00:21:44,994 that direction. 568 00:21:45,775 --> 00:21:46,994 So it so it's fundamentally 569 00:21:47,694 --> 00:21:49,694 big trees versus small trees, and do you 570 00:21:49,694 --> 00:21:50,880 wanna spend the money 571 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:53,619 now or later to be able to process 572 00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:55,519 small trees because you know you're gonna have 573 00:21:55,519 --> 00:21:57,839 to eventually it's just how much worse do 574 00:21:57,839 --> 00:21:59,460 we make climate change in the process? 575 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:02,000 I think that's it. And I think every 576 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,480 country that has, like, primary forest, these are 577 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:06,319 forests that are old growth that haven't been 578 00:22:06,319 --> 00:22:06,819 logged, 579 00:22:07,144 --> 00:22:09,784 Eventually, hits an inflection point where you run 580 00:22:09,784 --> 00:22:10,764 out of accessibility 581 00:22:11,384 --> 00:22:13,804 and it becomes, like, economically infeasible 582 00:22:14,585 --> 00:22:17,544 to go into those primary forest. And this 583 00:22:17,544 --> 00:22:19,304 happens. We see it all over the world 584 00:22:19,304 --> 00:22:21,005 and then the ecosystem crashes. 585 00:22:21,740 --> 00:22:24,240 So we can avoid that with the Tongass. 586 00:22:24,380 --> 00:22:27,100 It could be a global model of here's 587 00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:29,900 how you transition to smaller trees, and you 588 00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:31,519 keep all your ecological 589 00:22:31,980 --> 00:22:35,039 values in place before you crash the ecosystem. 590 00:22:37,295 --> 00:22:39,055 Now I wanna move on from mature and 591 00:22:39,055 --> 00:22:40,835 old growth and ask you about a few 592 00:22:41,215 --> 00:22:42,115 other developments, 593 00:22:42,815 --> 00:22:45,535 in headlines we've been seeing re related to 594 00:22:45,535 --> 00:22:46,035 forests. 595 00:22:46,335 --> 00:22:48,035 The first is that the agriculture 596 00:22:48,494 --> 00:22:51,154 secretary, the USDA secretary, Tom Vilsack, 597 00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:54,869 recently announced guidance to the forest service that 598 00:22:54,869 --> 00:22:56,170 requires them to prioritize 599 00:22:56,549 --> 00:22:57,450 forest connectivity, 600 00:22:58,309 --> 00:23:00,309 mainly for the benefit of wildlife. And I'm 601 00:23:00,309 --> 00:23:00,809 wondering 602 00:23:01,430 --> 00:23:03,430 if that is as big a deal as 603 00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:05,430 it sounds like. Does it have any teeth? 604 00:23:05,430 --> 00:23:06,615 What's your read on that? 605 00:23:07,414 --> 00:23:08,875 Yeah. So for your listeners, 606 00:23:09,734 --> 00:23:10,875 the issue of connectivity 607 00:23:11,174 --> 00:23:12,075 is fundamental 608 00:23:12,454 --> 00:23:16,134 in conservation biology approaches. So we look for 609 00:23:16,134 --> 00:23:18,394 a bunch of different ways to get nature 610 00:23:18,535 --> 00:23:19,994 through the onset 611 00:23:20,535 --> 00:23:21,755 onslaught of 612 00:23:22,079 --> 00:23:24,640 climate change and land development. So we've gotta 613 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:25,380 have sufficient, 614 00:23:26,559 --> 00:23:28,740 amounts of protection across the landscape. 615 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:30,980 There are efforts to protect 30%, 616 00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:32,339 50%, 617 00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:33,460 a 100% 618 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:34,900 of different, 619 00:23:35,759 --> 00:23:36,900 habitat types 620 00:23:37,505 --> 00:23:40,224 globally and in the US. And then we've 621 00:23:40,224 --> 00:23:42,625 gotta make sure that the landscapes that we 622 00:23:42,625 --> 00:23:43,125 protected 623 00:23:43,505 --> 00:23:46,544 are sufficiently connected so that wildlife can move 624 00:23:46,544 --> 00:23:47,044 around, 625 00:23:47,505 --> 00:23:49,284 especially looking for suitable 626 00:23:49,970 --> 00:23:53,349 climate niches in a rapidly changing world. 627 00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:56,950 And by having connected landscapes, we have functional 628 00:23:57,009 --> 00:23:57,509 ecosystems. 629 00:23:58,369 --> 00:24:01,330 And so USDA introduced this policy. On the 630 00:24:01,330 --> 00:24:03,509 surface, it looks like it could be meaningful. 631 00:24:04,095 --> 00:24:06,335 However, the focus is a lot on the 632 00:24:06,335 --> 00:24:08,275 so called working forests. 633 00:24:08,815 --> 00:24:10,494 And I have a problem with that term 634 00:24:10,494 --> 00:24:11,154 in general 635 00:24:11,535 --> 00:24:13,615 because if you look at work as a 636 00:24:13,615 --> 00:24:14,835 measure of ecosystem 637 00:24:15,294 --> 00:24:18,595 benefits that we get from forest, by far, 638 00:24:19,230 --> 00:24:19,730 the, 639 00:24:20,750 --> 00:24:23,789 the natural systems are the working forest and 640 00:24:23,789 --> 00:24:26,369 not the ones that they're plucking trees from. 641 00:24:26,589 --> 00:24:28,849 So I think the concept of connectivity 642 00:24:29,150 --> 00:24:31,250 has to be across all lands 643 00:24:31,674 --> 00:24:34,954 and not just focused on working lands, but 644 00:24:34,954 --> 00:24:35,454 working 645 00:24:35,755 --> 00:24:36,255 ecosystems. 646 00:24:37,035 --> 00:24:39,454 And that means protecting your roadless areas. 647 00:24:40,394 --> 00:24:41,134 That means 648 00:24:41,595 --> 00:24:42,095 obliterating 649 00:24:42,394 --> 00:24:44,575 some roads that might increase 650 00:24:45,099 --> 00:24:47,419 the size of roadless areas so you have 651 00:24:47,419 --> 00:24:48,559 even more functional 652 00:24:49,179 --> 00:24:49,679 connectivity 653 00:24:50,059 --> 00:24:50,639 in places. 654 00:24:51,019 --> 00:24:53,659 And that means making sure that you've got 655 00:24:53,659 --> 00:24:55,599 sufficient areas that are protected, 656 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:58,480 represented across a large region 657 00:24:58,835 --> 00:25:01,555 that are well connected so that animals and 658 00:25:01,555 --> 00:25:04,055 plants can move around. So I think it's 659 00:25:04,434 --> 00:25:07,714 promising, but I think the focus on working 660 00:25:07,714 --> 00:25:08,615 lands is, 661 00:25:08,994 --> 00:25:09,734 one dimensional. 662 00:25:10,994 --> 00:25:12,674 Or or at least misses all of the 663 00:25:12,674 --> 00:25:13,890 work that goes in 664 00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:16,549 when people are not actually there doing anything. 665 00:25:17,650 --> 00:25:19,109 So given all of those pressures, 666 00:25:19,970 --> 00:25:21,990 what advice would you give 667 00:25:22,609 --> 00:25:24,869 the next agriculture secretary? 668 00:25:25,170 --> 00:25:26,070 How do you 669 00:25:26,865 --> 00:25:27,365 prioritize, 670 00:25:27,664 --> 00:25:28,164 balance 671 00:25:29,424 --> 00:25:30,644 the pressures of 672 00:25:31,664 --> 00:25:32,565 habitat connectivity, 673 00:25:33,105 --> 00:25:34,005 climate change, 674 00:25:34,384 --> 00:25:37,424 the forestry industry wanting and saying we need 675 00:25:37,424 --> 00:25:38,484 this to be 676 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,019 economically viable even if, 677 00:25:41,799 --> 00:25:43,180 that that's not necessarily 678 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:44,700 a fully honest 679 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:46,220 take. 680 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,400 How how would you like to see the 681 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,579 next agriculture secretary approach 682 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:53,420 America's National Forests? 683 00:25:54,884 --> 00:25:57,545 Yeah. So I I hope the next agriculture 684 00:25:57,845 --> 00:25:59,705 secretary is not a chicken farmer 685 00:26:00,325 --> 00:26:02,424 because these are not crops. 686 00:26:03,285 --> 00:26:04,984 These are forest living 687 00:26:05,285 --> 00:26:05,785 ecosystems, 688 00:26:06,325 --> 00:26:08,724 and to treat them as crops and then 689 00:26:08,724 --> 00:26:09,464 call it 690 00:26:10,019 --> 00:26:14,180 fire management or reducing insect outbreaks is just 691 00:26:14,180 --> 00:26:16,119 misleading. It's based on misinformation. 692 00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:19,640 Let's really truly evaluate 693 00:26:20,259 --> 00:26:23,619 the public asset that we have on the 694 00:26:23,619 --> 00:26:24,600 national forest 695 00:26:25,065 --> 00:26:27,804 because we can't find this any other place 696 00:26:27,944 --> 00:26:29,625 in the country. We're not gonna find it 697 00:26:29,625 --> 00:26:32,105 on private lands. We're not gonna find it 698 00:26:32,105 --> 00:26:33,085 on state lands. 699 00:26:33,704 --> 00:26:37,144 It's really the federal lands that hold the 700 00:26:37,144 --> 00:26:39,244 keys to our climate future, 701 00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:42,000 And we need a total, 702 00:26:43,019 --> 00:26:44,880 revamping of the forest service 703 00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:46,400 to take into consideration 704 00:26:46,859 --> 00:26:48,400 the value of carbon, 705 00:26:48,940 --> 00:26:52,880 of clean water, of wildlife habitat, of recreation, 706 00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:54,799 of clean air 707 00:26:55,125 --> 00:26:57,765 that communities are going to need to weather 708 00:26:57,765 --> 00:26:59,065 the climate storm. 709 00:26:59,525 --> 00:27:01,785 Most of our clean drinking water 710 00:27:02,164 --> 00:27:05,144 has its headwaters in the national forest system. 711 00:27:05,765 --> 00:27:08,184 Most of our natural climate solutions 712 00:27:08,910 --> 00:27:11,309 in our old forest are on the natural 713 00:27:11,309 --> 00:27:13,170 for a national forest system. 714 00:27:13,789 --> 00:27:17,090 Those areas need to be valued and upheld 715 00:27:17,390 --> 00:27:21,170 by protecting them from logging. That means fixing 716 00:27:21,605 --> 00:27:22,505 the old growth 717 00:27:22,805 --> 00:27:24,984 national amendment through supplementation, 718 00:27:26,484 --> 00:27:26,984 and, 719 00:27:27,684 --> 00:27:30,724 revision process that will take those forests off 720 00:27:30,724 --> 00:27:34,025 the logging chopping block once and for all 721 00:27:34,085 --> 00:27:35,384 and move it from 722 00:27:35,845 --> 00:27:36,345 guidelines 723 00:27:37,309 --> 00:27:40,349 into official policy that the agency is going 724 00:27:40,349 --> 00:27:41,089 to follow. 725 00:27:42,029 --> 00:27:42,529 Alright. 726 00:27:42,990 --> 00:27:45,309 I mentioned this earlier, and I wanna sort 727 00:27:45,309 --> 00:27:47,250 of maybe wrap on this question, but 728 00:27:47,549 --> 00:27:50,670 I recently saw a really concerning news story 729 00:27:50,670 --> 00:27:52,849 that said trees and land 730 00:27:53,284 --> 00:27:56,345 failed to absorb almost any carbon last year. 731 00:27:56,565 --> 00:27:59,765 And the essentially, the the headline was that 732 00:27:59,765 --> 00:28:01,784 Earth's carbon sinks are failing. 733 00:28:03,765 --> 00:28:04,825 Is this true, 734 00:28:05,210 --> 00:28:07,230 or is there some nuance that 735 00:28:07,529 --> 00:28:09,309 is missing from this headline? 736 00:28:10,329 --> 00:28:12,569 Yeah. It's it's partially true. I mean, the 737 00:28:12,569 --> 00:28:13,630 headline is absurd. 738 00:28:14,650 --> 00:28:17,630 The trees are not gonna stop absorbing carbon. 739 00:28:17,769 --> 00:28:20,924 That's just ridiculous. The headline was just off 740 00:28:20,924 --> 00:28:23,884 base. The article was good, but the headline 741 00:28:23,884 --> 00:28:25,664 was misreading. It was misleading. 742 00:28:26,204 --> 00:28:27,105 So I think, 743 00:28:27,884 --> 00:28:28,704 right now, 744 00:28:29,085 --> 00:28:32,044 what we have is a massive carbon sink, 745 00:28:32,044 --> 00:28:33,264 and it's our forest. 746 00:28:33,724 --> 00:28:36,065 And they are doing the job of 747 00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:39,579 taking carbon out of the atmosphere and absorbing 748 00:28:39,799 --> 00:28:42,119 holding on to it, storing it through the 749 00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:43,259 miracle of photosynthesis. 750 00:28:44,119 --> 00:28:46,279 And they do do it better than any 751 00:28:46,279 --> 00:28:48,380 terrestrial ecosystem on the planet. 752 00:28:48,765 --> 00:28:50,684 Now is that gonna remain the case in 753 00:28:50,684 --> 00:28:51,184 perpetuity? 754 00:28:52,445 --> 00:28:54,605 Depends on where you are in the region 755 00:28:54,605 --> 00:28:57,085 of the globe. If you're in the, coastal 756 00:28:57,085 --> 00:28:57,984 temperate rainforest, 757 00:28:58,445 --> 00:29:00,125 you have a better chance, which is why 758 00:29:00,125 --> 00:29:02,384 we think Southeast Alaska, the Tongass, 759 00:29:02,750 --> 00:29:05,570 is gonna function more as a climate sanctuary 760 00:29:05,789 --> 00:29:08,049 and more interior portions of Alaska 761 00:29:08,590 --> 00:29:10,670 are heating up at a a have the 762 00:29:10,670 --> 00:29:12,690 highest climate velocity on the planet. 763 00:29:13,070 --> 00:29:15,390 So it's going to really shift around the 764 00:29:15,390 --> 00:29:15,890 globe. 765 00:29:16,275 --> 00:29:19,234 And in places, we're not gonna have forest 766 00:29:19,234 --> 00:29:21,234 anymore in the next 50 to a 100 767 00:29:21,234 --> 00:29:21,734 years. 768 00:29:22,195 --> 00:29:24,695 Some other vegetation will come in 769 00:29:25,154 --> 00:29:26,934 and also provide carbon, 770 00:29:28,035 --> 00:29:29,335 carbon sink potential. 771 00:29:29,875 --> 00:29:32,880 But the massive loss of carbon to the 772 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:33,380 atmosphere 773 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,980 and ecosystem values of that transition 774 00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:39,380 are going to really have reverberating 775 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:40,900 effects on society. 776 00:29:41,279 --> 00:29:42,900 We don't want that to happen. 777 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:45,200 So the only way to stop that is 778 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,820 to get off of fossil fuels, 779 00:29:47,154 --> 00:29:49,095 protect the natural climate solutions, 780 00:29:49,795 --> 00:29:52,434 and reduce the chance of that happening. And 781 00:29:52,434 --> 00:29:53,894 we're running out of time 782 00:29:54,275 --> 00:29:57,174 for that. Every single country around the globe 783 00:29:57,474 --> 00:29:59,654 has not followed the Paris climate agreement. 784 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:03,480 So one follow-up question for you. My understanding 785 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:04,779 of the story is that 786 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,480 something about the way the climate is already 787 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:08,539 changing is 788 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,420 making these carbon sinks less effective. 789 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:13,825 Is that right? And can you say just 790 00:30:13,825 --> 00:30:15,345 a little bit more about that and what 791 00:30:15,345 --> 00:30:17,265 what sort of is happening right now that's 792 00:30:17,265 --> 00:30:20,005 maybe hurting these climate sinks other than just 793 00:30:20,544 --> 00:30:22,325 chopping them down, which, of course, 794 00:30:22,944 --> 00:30:23,684 is bad? 795 00:30:25,230 --> 00:30:27,950 Yeah. I think what's going on is so 796 00:30:27,950 --> 00:30:30,429 for example, in the Amazon, the Amazon has 797 00:30:30,429 --> 00:30:32,910 shifted from a carbon sink to a source 798 00:30:32,910 --> 00:30:33,569 of carbon 799 00:30:34,190 --> 00:30:36,269 3 times in the last 2 decades, I 800 00:30:36,269 --> 00:30:36,769 believe. 801 00:30:37,315 --> 00:30:39,315 And that is because the slash and burn 802 00:30:39,315 --> 00:30:39,815 agriculture 803 00:30:40,195 --> 00:30:41,734 is changing the climate. 804 00:30:42,275 --> 00:30:45,315 The rate of logging is so severe in 805 00:30:45,315 --> 00:30:45,815 Amazonia 806 00:30:46,195 --> 00:30:46,695 that 807 00:30:47,154 --> 00:30:47,654 the, 808 00:30:48,355 --> 00:30:49,015 the recycling 809 00:30:49,555 --> 00:30:50,055 between 810 00:30:50,799 --> 00:30:54,099 the hydrosphere and the biosphere is being disrupted 811 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:55,920 in terms of water going back into the 812 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,779 atmosphere and it's falling as rainfall. 813 00:30:58,240 --> 00:30:59,779 So we're getting more droughts 814 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:00,900 in Amazonia, 815 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,980 and it's shifting it into, 816 00:31:03,955 --> 00:31:05,894 more of a source of emissions 817 00:31:06,355 --> 00:31:09,335 than a sink. And that's the planet's lungs 818 00:31:09,875 --> 00:31:11,335 that we're, polluting 819 00:31:11,875 --> 00:31:15,095 from slash and burn agriculture and fossil fuel 820 00:31:15,235 --> 00:31:15,735 pollution. 821 00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:17,410 And this could happen, 822 00:31:17,890 --> 00:31:18,390 widespread 823 00:31:18,769 --> 00:31:22,230 across the globe where you've got higher temperatures 824 00:31:22,610 --> 00:31:23,110 overheating, 825 00:31:23,730 --> 00:31:24,470 heat domes, 826 00:31:24,850 --> 00:31:27,509 which happen a lot in the Pacific Northwest 827 00:31:27,570 --> 00:31:29,350 now and many other places 828 00:31:29,804 --> 00:31:31,884 in the interior west. We get these heat 829 00:31:31,884 --> 00:31:32,384 domes. 830 00:31:32,684 --> 00:31:34,144 We get increasing droughts. 831 00:31:34,444 --> 00:31:36,544 All of that stresses out trees. 832 00:31:36,845 --> 00:31:38,065 And as they die, 833 00:31:38,524 --> 00:31:42,204 they lose that carbon sink value, especially if 834 00:31:42,204 --> 00:31:43,825 the dying is widespread. 835 00:31:44,369 --> 00:31:46,210 So I think there's a lot of concern 836 00:31:46,210 --> 00:31:48,049 about that, and I spend a lot of 837 00:31:48,049 --> 00:31:48,710 my time 838 00:31:49,089 --> 00:31:49,829 looking at 839 00:31:50,210 --> 00:31:52,609 climate change models in the next 5 to 840 00:31:52,609 --> 00:31:53,430 10 decades 841 00:31:53,809 --> 00:31:56,210 are showing that the potential for that is 842 00:31:56,210 --> 00:31:57,190 going to increase 843 00:31:57,569 --> 00:31:59,990 if we don't get off of this 844 00:32:00,434 --> 00:32:02,855 pathway that we are of treating the atmosphere 845 00:32:03,075 --> 00:32:05,815 as a dumping ground for our carbon emissions. 846 00:32:06,914 --> 00:32:09,954 Alright. Well, on that cheery note, we will 847 00:32:09,954 --> 00:32:12,595 leave this episode. Our guest today is doctor 848 00:32:12,595 --> 00:32:15,414 Dominic Della Sala, chief scientist at Wild Heritage, 849 00:32:15,890 --> 00:32:18,049 a project of the Earth Island Institute. Thank 850 00:32:18,049 --> 00:32:20,130 you so much for being with us. Yeah. 851 00:32:20,130 --> 00:32:22,289 And happy Halloween, everybody. I didn't mean to 852 00:32:22,289 --> 00:32:23,029 scare you. 853 00:32:27,904 --> 00:32:29,744 We started off today's episode with some good 854 00:32:29,744 --> 00:32:31,345 news, so we're gonna end with something a 855 00:32:31,345 --> 00:32:32,085 little different. 856 00:32:32,544 --> 00:32:34,325 Have you heard about the free landholders? 857 00:32:35,024 --> 00:32:37,904 They're an extremist group claiming ownership of about 858 00:32:37,904 --> 00:32:40,784 1400 acres in the San Juan National Forest 859 00:32:40,784 --> 00:32:42,164 in Southwest Colorado. 860 00:32:42,619 --> 00:32:44,539 They built a barbed wire fence around the 861 00:32:44,539 --> 00:32:47,259 land, which angry locals have begun to dismantle 862 00:32:47,259 --> 00:32:48,240 with wire cutters. 863 00:32:48,619 --> 00:32:50,299 Some members of the group have ties to 864 00:32:50,299 --> 00:32:52,700 the fundamentalist church of Jesus Christ of Latter 865 00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:54,480 day Saints. That's FLDS, 866 00:32:55,019 --> 00:32:56,859 a polygamous sect that was once led by 867 00:32:56,859 --> 00:32:57,759 Warren Jeffs. 868 00:32:58,355 --> 00:33:00,835 Patrick Leroy Pipkin, a member of the group, 869 00:33:00,835 --> 00:33:02,434 told the press that they have a claim 870 00:33:02,434 --> 00:33:04,134 to the land under the 1848 871 00:33:04,595 --> 00:33:06,295 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, 872 00:33:06,835 --> 00:33:09,475 the 18 14 Treaty of Ghent, and the 873 00:33:09,475 --> 00:33:09,975 1783 874 00:33:10,515 --> 00:33:11,575 Treaty of Paris, 875 00:33:11,929 --> 00:33:13,390 and the articles of Confederation. 876 00:33:14,009 --> 00:33:15,849 This is some pretty crazy stuff with a 877 00:33:15,849 --> 00:33:18,109 lot of parallels to the sovereign citizen movement, 878 00:33:18,410 --> 00:33:20,509 and if you squint hard enough to Utah's 879 00:33:20,569 --> 00:33:23,289 land grab lawsuit effort. So we'll be keeping 880 00:33:23,289 --> 00:33:24,490 an eye on it to see where it 881 00:33:24,490 --> 00:33:24,990 goes. 882 00:33:35,134 --> 00:33:37,375 Well, that is all for today, folks. I'm 883 00:33:37,375 --> 00:33:39,169 just gonna hope that we don't have to 884 00:33:39,169 --> 00:33:41,190 do a full episode on these free landholder 885 00:33:41,250 --> 00:33:42,789 folks at some point, but obviously, 886 00:33:43,250 --> 00:33:45,169 if it becomes more of a thing, we'll 887 00:33:45,169 --> 00:33:45,829 be there. 888 00:33:46,289 --> 00:33:48,130 As always, leave us a review if you 889 00:33:48,130 --> 00:33:50,210 can wherever you are listening to us right 890 00:33:50,210 --> 00:33:53,025 now. Send us your questions and your comments, 891 00:33:53,025 --> 00:33:54,244 podcast at westernpriorities.org. 892 00:33:55,825 --> 00:33:58,065 We will have a post election episode of 893 00:33:58,065 --> 00:34:00,625 this podcast, regardless of course of who wins, 894 00:34:00,625 --> 00:34:03,025 so look for that sometime in the days 895 00:34:03,025 --> 00:34:05,869 after November 5th And do, of course, get 896 00:34:05,869 --> 00:34:06,929 out there and vote. 897 00:34:07,549 --> 00:34:10,130 If you are spiraling about this upcoming election, 898 00:34:10,510 --> 00:34:11,250 get outside. 899 00:34:11,630 --> 00:34:14,130 Nature, one of the best mental health resources 900 00:34:14,349 --> 00:34:16,989 we have, of course, including our national public 901 00:34:16,989 --> 00:34:17,489 lands. 902 00:34:18,255 --> 00:34:20,574 Thanks again to doctor Delasala for his time, 903 00:34:20,574 --> 00:34:22,994 and thank you for listening to the landscape.