Welcome to the landscape. This is your show
about America's parks and public lands. I'm Erin
Weiss with the center for Western priorities in
Denver. And I'm Kate G in Salt Lake
City.
Today on the podcast, we're talking to the
founder of a group called disabled Hike about
what actually makes the outdoors accessible to disabled
people. We're excited to get to that, but
first, let's do some news.
Both of Colorado Us senators are on onboard
with more protections for the Dolores River. We've
talked about that proposal to designate a new
national monument called Dolores Canyon, it would protect
around 400000
acres of land on Colorado West slope. The
proposed monument includes the largest most biodiversity diverse
area of unprotected land in Colorado.
So this joint statement that we saw just
before the fourth of July from senators Michael
Bennett and John Hi, area It stopped just
short of fully endorsing the monument proposal itself,
but it is clear that the sender support
the overall goals. They also said that any
land protections will also need to protect existing
mining, hunting, grazing and water rights, as well
as recreation opportunities like Mountain biking and off
road access like the Rim rocker trail. Now
all of that, is in line with what
monument supporters have been calling for.
Both senators have held meetings with locals around
the proposed monument to get feedback on the
proposal
And this statement is that first official signal
that they both support increasing protections for the
area, the question now is how to do
it.
Our guest today is Cy No. They are
the founder and director of disabled hike. A
non profit group seeking to make the outdoors
more accessible for people with disabilities.
Siren, Thank you so much for being here.
It's Yeah. Thanks for inviting me.
So let's start with the beginning. You you
started disabled hike in 20 18.
What brought that about?
Yeah. So I grew up with multiple disabilities
and chronic illnesses, and it took me a
really long time to kinda get into hiking
and figure out that was something that I
wanted to do and
you know, of course, I encountered lots of
obstacles and barriers and lack of understanding and
all of that along the way. So
in 20 18, it all kind of came
to a head when I was
had done, you know, all this research about
kind of this 1 section of a trial
system. I done other portions of the trail
system booked 4, but not this particular section,
and went there expecting it to be accessible
for me and immediately encountered
lots of obstacles and barriers that I didn't
find in my research that put me in
a really dangerous
situation. So there's things like, you know, Steep
stairs and rocky drop offs and covered slopes
and all of that.
And it, you know, again, put me in
a really difficult and dangerous situation and kinda
at the end of that,
I just said, you know, I'm gonna do
something about this, And I went home and
wrote up a blog post about it and,
you know, put up website and called it...
Sa hike and we were born from there.
Classic necessity is the mother of invention story.
So what does hiking look like for you
these days and what kind of hikes are
accessible for you and what kind do you
enjoy?
Yeah. So, you know, for me, I really
enjoy. You know, kinda what is becoming more
popularized as slow hiking.
Really, that's just, like, accessible hiking.
So, you know, for me, like, just going
out on a, you fairly gentle, like, 2,
3 mile hike,
and just really taking my time and enjoying
the experience is what I really love to
do.
You know, I'm not out there, like, climbing
mountains or a quote unquote conquering the wilderness
or anything like that. That's... Not my jam.
So... But just, you, having slow, respectful,
immersive experiences is really important to me.
Since 20 18, you've you've really...
I was gonna say carved out a niche,
but it's I... Broader than that. You've put
on events you've written trail guides,
books
that you've you've offered just tell us about
the growth of disabled hike and some of
the resources that you've been able to put
together here in the last 6 years.
But Yeah. It has grown really much faster
than I ever anticipated, which is exciting and
challenging.
So, you know, we after the website, you
know, we started with the social media, and
our community really grew from there. We found
a lot of people online who were... You
know, disabled and wanted to access the outdoors,
but didn't know how didn't have community.
So we started having more conversations with people
through that,
And
then I started
writing more trial guides. I developed the spoon
rating system and started writing online guides and
I'm the author of 2 hiking guide books
now.
And,
from there, we also started doing events,
where we do,
entirely disabled led, disability community only,
hiking events, picnic, things like that to get
the community get together outdoors,
and really just, you know, explore what it
means to be disabled in the outdoors, What
accessibility looks like, what does accessibility mean when
you're with a group of cross disabled folks
with people with a variety of access needs.
And so just really exploring that, has been
really meaningful. And then We do a lot
of work with, like, parks and organizations and
and brands around access and inclusion, doing training,
doing consulting.
Commenting, you know, on legislation and things like
that. So we're really doing a lot of
different kinds of work, but it's all very
grounded in the community,
we are entirely disabled led. Everyone in the
organization has a disability or chronic illness or
is neuro,
and that's really important to us.
So we really are very much grounded in
our grassroots
community for sure. You mentioned there the spoon
reading system.
What is that?
Yeah. So it's kind of what
some people would consider a difficulty rating system.
So spoon rating is based in...
The spoon theory, which is concept by Christine
Miss Dino,
that kind of... It's a symbol for the
energy rationing, the lot of disabled and chronically
ill piece... Have to do on a daily
basis. So, you know, you start the day
with, like, 10 spoons and every activity you
do requires a certain number of spoons. People
we'll
So I wanted to do something that was,
you know, kind of culturally relevant to the
disability chronic illness this community, and also much
more objective and specific
in terms of,
you know, quote of what difficulty rating and
accessibility. So it's on a 1 to 5
scale and each rating is very specific. So,
like, a one's spoon, and it's gonna be,
like, under 2 miles,
flat, paved, no obstacles,
you know, easy to navigate things like that,
and then it goes up from there. So...
So what are some of the biggest challenges
and, and barriers
disabled people face when they are trying to
access nature and go on a hike.
Yeah. 1 of the biggest barriers for sure
is just lack of information and lack of
under standing. You know, so many... There's so
many hiking resources available out there, but they're
all written and provided from the perspective people
who are not disabled,
and they assume that everyone who is hiking
is not disabled.
So, you know, having really good
up to date, clear,
specific information is really important.
And then, of course, you know, having access
to accessible trails and accessible facilities,
is, really lacking it a lot of ways
as well. You know, And it doesn't mean,
like, we don't wanna pave over the wilderness.
Right? Like, we're not interested in creating paved
trails every wear. But, you know, making them
so that they are, you know, more easy
to navigate using a variety of mobility equipment
and aids where
providing benches, restrooms,
all of those kind of amenities that help
make space more accessible.
And then also just access to equipment,
you know, things like
even just basic wheelchairs can be really difficult
for allotted disabled folks to have access to.
And then when you start looking at things
like all terrain wheelchairs, they are incredibly expensive.
So, you know, having more parks and things
like that offering those to the community.
You mentioned not... It's not about paving trails,
but these other accessibility. Can you describe some
more of of what that looks like from
a a trail construction
standpoint.
Mh.
Yeah. So there's, of course, there's a variety
of accessibility guidelines that are out there depending
on, you know, which land manager you're looking
at.
They all kinda have their own sets of
guidelines. But in general, you know, having things
that are flat,
more or less flat, very very limited,
very minimal grades
with a very firm and stable surface,
so whether that's, you know, a natural surface
or putting down, you know, hard packed peak
gravel or something like that,
having places to rest.
Benches, you know, even, like, nice log benches,
you know, things like that for people to
have a
you know, place to take a break, And
then having it be somewhere that people want
to go. Right? I think so often and
people put in an accessible trail, and it's
like, oh, here's you're like, few hundred yards,
it ends at, like, nothing
and there you go, and that's kind of
it.
So really designing the trails in a in
a accessible way,
to be a really meaningful experience. Of course,
that also benefits
the non disabled community as well because having
well designed, maintained trails reduces the impact on
the surrounding environment. So...
Sir, what? Tips do you have for disabled
people who wanna get outside And what resources
from your organization? Would you recommend to somebody
who's maybe just finding out about this?
Yeah. I think 1 of my biggest tips
that I tell people is just...
It's more of an internal thing. Right? It's
letting go of... All of those narratives that
we have about who is a quote unquote
real hike and what being outdoors means and
looks like.
You know, like I said earlier, it doesn't
mean climbing a mountain.
It can mean as simple as going out
and sitting on your porch. Or sitting on
a park bench and looking at the birds,
looking at the trees.
That is a perfectly valid way of being
outdoors,
and, you know, any any way that you
are in the outdoors is valid.
So if that's, you, hiking a short trail
and taking a break, bringing a chair with
you and and resting on that trail, that's
valid.
You know, I really say, like, if you
are moving some way in the outdoors and
wanna call yourself a hike, then you are
a hike. That's all there is to it.
And then in terms of resources, you know,
for sure, there's our social media is big
re resource, great way to connect with people.
We're on Instagram and Facebook.
Else also have a Facebook group.
And then the website has,
some trail guides on there.
Right now, we've... Primarily have been working throughout
the Pacific Northwest. So, like, Western Washington, Western
Oregon,
and then that was my first book, My
second book is coming out for Northern California
and in September. So there's a lot of
resources
for that area there.
But then on the website, there's also resources
that I, kinda give you an idea of
how to look for accessible trails, What kind
of information to look for, And then you
can... You know, research land manager websites,
other trail apps, like all trails, things like
that to kinda get an idea, of where
you can go. And then, you know, really
just try, you know, go out there and
and try it within your comfort zone and
figure out, you know, what hiking means to
you and what that looks like and what
is accessible for you. It definitely takes some
trial and error
a couple weeks ago, you and I connected,
thanks to the Salt Lake Tribune story about
a bill that senator Mike Leah had introduced
that would prohibit federal agencies from closing
2 track roads. Basically, the the off road
kinds of roads and Senator Lee, framed that
Bill is being about disability access. He actually
called it the
outdoor Americans with Disabilities Act.
You were,
not nearly as convinced
about the the of Senator Lee's Bill I
mean, what are your thoughts on on the
Oh community in particular here using disability access
as an argument for keeping roads open?
Yeah. I mean, you know, of course,
there's there's lots of disabled folks within the
Oh community who who...
Enjoy that type of activity as a way
for them to be able to get outdoors,
and I don't wanna discount that. You know,
that's, again, that's totally valid. But
for me, it very much feels like using
disability as a pawn in
both to kind of open roads and not
do anything else or accessibility
and also using the community as pawn in
a kind of a larger
scheme, right, around
particularly, like, government over reach and closing
roads and things like that. So
it feels, you know, very dis discontinuous to
me and the act doesn't really do anything
to actually improve accessibility beyond opening roads, and
there's so many more things that could be
done to really improve it.
So let's talk about those. You mentioned earlier
that your group does comment on legislation sometimes.
What are the policy changes and bills that
you'd like to see that would make public
lands more accessible. To the disability community.
Yeah. I would really like to see more
collaboration with the community,
you know, the as a as a community
based organization, even, we have a hard time,
you know, kinda getting through the bureaucratic process
and connecting with decision makers first. So making
it easier for them to partner with community
based organizations,
would be, you know, have a huge value
add both to our organization and the government.
And then, you know, there's
there's the Explore Act that is working its
way through the legislative process and that and
itself will,
both allow
the forest service to
potentially create and open new roads, but also...
Acquire those accessibility assessments and require
additional accessible facilities that are needed. So, you
know, that act is already going
through the process,
so that could have a huge benefit as
well.
Are there any great examples that you have
discovered? As you've been writing these books, posting
your trail guides online. And anything that you
have come across that you're like,
wow. That is really elect executed or a
really great idea that that should be, emulate
more across the country.
Yeah. I'm a really big fan of trail
acts us information signs, and these have been
implemented pretty widely across California State parks and
in some other parks
across the country says and these are signs
that go at the
trail head of every trail that kind of
gives the basic stats on that trail. So
the link,
the surface, the grade,
and, you know, kinda how accessible it is
and how long the accessible portion is, so
that anyone who shows up can write there
or know whether that trail will be appropriate
for them or not.
So that's... I'm a big fan of those.
III suppose that's worth noting. That's the sort
of thing, of course, that benefits
everyone, whether you consider yourself part of the
disabled community.
Or not because everyone has their own
individual capabilities and desires. And IIII
think back to my time back in in
software design,
a lifetime ago, pointing out that
accessible design
helps
absolutely everyone
in in their own
way because you never know whether any given
day you might have more trouble hearing or
typing or anything like that, having
having that baked in on the front end
is not just about 1 community. It's about
everyone. Yeah. Yeah. And there's such a push
to,
reasonably so for being, you know, more responsible
in the way that we recreate and to
plan ahead, but then there's not as strong
of a push to provide the information that
people need to be able to do that.
So, yeah. Yeah. That
reminds me of the
lives that are lost in the Grand Canyon
even just
you know, like, you need to know how
long you're going and you need to know
how steep it's gonna be to to know
how much water to bring. So it's just
big safety issue.
So I think this feeds into our next
question, what do non disabled Hike need to
know or what can they do to create
a more inclusive outdoor experience for everyone?
Question Yeah. That's that's a big question.
Yeah. I think for sure, I always start
with, you know,
listening to the disability community and examining the
able that we have all internalized all of
us,
but, you know, disabled folks, of course, have
more of an enforced opportunity to examine that.
So non disabled folks need to take the
time to do that as well. And then,
you know, when you
encounter something that is not accessible,
you know, to absolutely, talk to someone about
it. You know, it shouldn't always be on
disabled folks to make those complaints and make
those point out those issues.
You know, the non disable community can do
that as well.
And then to just keep in mind, you
know, whether you're hiking or riding
guides or providing information or working within the
industry that there is no 1 type of
hike that, you know, disabled folks,
absolutely our hike as well and that we
deserve to be out there.
We've talked a lot about here in this
conversation about
physical ability and physical trail design, but you
also mentioned that, your volunteers and and board
members, they're also
representing neuro diverse hike,
can you talk a little bit about that
and how
neuro
plays into trail accessibility?
Yeah. So, you know, some... There's a lot
of overlap, of course as well. So, you
know, having, like, good information that people can
plan ahead and know what to expect.
Is certainly an access need within a lot
of neuro virgin people,
having places
where they can go to get away from
crowds,
knowing
in advance, like, where there may be, like,
sudden in or surprise loud noises.
You know, So if I'm going to a
park,
You know, so I live on the Olympic
Peninsula, and we have grow jets that fly
over pretty regularly, and that's a huge issue
for me because, you know, that's a very
loud triggering sound. So knowing where those kind
of things may happen
is really helpful.
So, Siren, what are your plans for the
future of disabled height? You've done so much
already. Where is this all headed?
Yeah. We, have some big plans for the
future. So we're working on, the disabled hackers
network which is kind of the next phase
of growth for us where we will be
providing training and leadership development training and pure
mentorship for disabled folks, which to be able
to learn how to do things like trail
assessments and lead group hikes and work with
parks and organizations in their community
so that we can, you know, expand our
reach and, you know, build more community across
the nation and the world,
So, yeah, That's kinda of the next big
phase of our growth. And
you know, for sure, we're, again, a grassroots
nonprofit, always... Seeking funding, so we're hoping to
get more more funding on board to support
this work.
Awesome. Well, thank you. So much for your
time today. Siren Na carey founder and director
of disabled Hike. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Yeah. Thank you.
Here's a little good news to close out
the episode. The Us forest service has approved
a land swap that will permanently block hard
rock mining on thousands of acres above the
town of crest butte, Colorado.
The deal ends the longest running mine clash
in the lower 48 according to the Colorado
sun.
The swap includes a peak called Mount Emmy,
which locals referred to as the red lady
because of its pink hue. The town is
fought for nearly 50 years against a proposed
Moly mine on the mountain. Which is part
of the town's waters shed. The forest service
will take over management of 625
acres of undeveloped parcels in in holdings across
4 ranches, as well as 15000 acres of
wet lands as part of the swap. In
the Mount Edmonds mining company will get 539
acres of federal land that include the company's
water treatment plant, tailing storage and retention ponds.
Now the company must place conservation ease and
surrender mining right on all the land it
owns as part of the swap, which will
prevent any new mining and development on the
land while still allowing for non motorized recreation
like hiking and back country skiing. Really awesome
to see after a 50 year fight, what
a a fabulous
win win
solution that is
That is it for today, folks, please give
us a good rating. Wherever you're listening to
this right now so that other folks can
find us. And please let us know if
you have thoughts, you can reach us at
podcast at western priorities dot org. Always love
to hear ideas and suggestions for new guests
to talk to. And finally, give us a
follow on Instagram or Tiktok, our colleague Sterling
continues to make really great videos on there.
Thanks again to Siren for speaking with us
today. And as always, thank you for listening
to the v landscape.