1 00:00:00,435 --> 00:00:00,475 - 2 00:00:07,545 --> 00:00:10,315 - Welcome to the Landscape, your show about America's parks 3 00:00:10,315 --> 00:00:11,355 and public lands. 4 00:00:11,415 --> 00:00:13,875 I'm Aaron Weiss with the Center for Western Priorities, 5 00:00:13,875 --> 00:00:16,715 where I just watched the solar eclipse with a bunch 6 00:00:16,715 --> 00:00:18,755 of kindergartners through eighth graders. 7 00:00:18,815 --> 00:00:22,235 It was, uh, definitely the best fun I'm gonna have this week 8 00:00:22,755 --> 00:00:24,435 watching, uh, watching their expressions 9 00:00:24,455 --> 00:00:25,915 and getting to photograph. 10 00:00:26,305 --> 00:00:27,715 Such a very cool event. 11 00:00:28,575 --> 00:00:30,475 - And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City. 12 00:00:31,175 --> 00:00:32,675 I'm sad to say I missed the eclipse, 13 00:00:32,675 --> 00:00:34,715 but I am looking forward to seeing all of your videos 14 00:00:34,815 --> 00:00:36,235 and pictures of it on Instagram. 15 00:00:36,535 --> 00:00:39,835 So send those my way at Western priorities. 16 00:00:40,585 --> 00:00:43,475 - Alright, turning from the sky to the earth. 17 00:00:43,845 --> 00:00:45,075 Let's do a little news here. 18 00:00:45,215 --> 00:00:48,635 The Biden administration has finalized a mineral withdrawal 19 00:00:48,785 --> 00:00:50,915 that protects over 200,000 acres 20 00:00:50,935 --> 00:00:53,355 of public land in Colorado's Thompson Divide. 21 00:00:53,935 --> 00:00:55,955 The Thompson Divide is located in the 22 00:00:55,955 --> 00:00:57,035 central part of the state. 23 00:00:57,135 --> 00:00:58,595 The withdrawal stretches from 24 00:00:58,595 --> 00:01:00,995 around Paonia all the way up to Carbondale. 25 00:01:01,505 --> 00:01:05,035 This is a 20 year withdrawal that will prevent new mining 26 00:01:05,135 --> 00:01:07,035 or oil and gas activity in the area. 27 00:01:07,375 --> 00:01:10,035 Of course, it won't affect existing active leases 28 00:01:10,135 --> 00:01:11,435 within that withdrawal area. 29 00:01:12,105 --> 00:01:14,915 This withdrawal has tons of support. 30 00:01:15,055 --> 00:01:19,715 It has been a decade plus long effort involving ranchers, 31 00:01:19,865 --> 00:01:23,155 hunters, outdoor enthusiasts, environmental advocates, 32 00:01:23,375 --> 00:01:26,595 and of course elected officials who have all been advocating 33 00:01:26,895 --> 00:01:28,555 for protecting the Thompson divide. 34 00:01:28,945 --> 00:01:31,635 Over 70,000 people wrote comments supporting 35 00:01:31,775 --> 00:01:32,915 the mineral withdrawal. 36 00:01:33,375 --> 00:01:35,955 Uh, and I, I think you do have to give a shout out here 37 00:01:36,015 --> 00:01:37,275 to Senator Michael Bennett 38 00:01:37,655 --> 00:01:41,035 and John Hickenlooper for leading the way first 39 00:01:41,035 --> 00:01:44,835 with their core act, and then pushing President Biden, uh, 40 00:01:44,895 --> 00:01:46,115 and the Interior Department 41 00:01:46,115 --> 00:01:47,955 to get this mineral withdrawal done. 42 00:01:48,175 --> 00:01:51,275 So great job by everyone all the way around. 43 00:01:52,265 --> 00:01:54,155 - Also in the news this week, the Bureau 44 00:01:54,255 --> 00:01:57,555 of Land Management has finalized two really important rules. 45 00:01:58,255 --> 00:02:00,355 The first is the Renewable Energy Rule, 46 00:02:00,605 --> 00:02:04,155 which updates regulations to incentivize and expedite wind 47 00:02:04,155 --> 00:02:06,475 and solar energy development on public lands. 48 00:02:06,865 --> 00:02:07,955 This rule is really important 49 00:02:08,095 --> 00:02:10,515 and will help expedite the renewable energy transition 50 00:02:10,575 --> 00:02:12,315 by creating a streamlined process 51 00:02:12,535 --> 00:02:16,315 for development in priority areas identified by the BL M's. 52 00:02:16,315 --> 00:02:17,635 Solar programmatic update. 53 00:02:18,095 --> 00:02:20,595 We spoke to the Wilderness Society's Justin Muse about 54 00:02:20,595 --> 00:02:22,595 that update in February, so you can go back 55 00:02:22,595 --> 00:02:23,715 and listen to that if you want. 56 00:02:24,385 --> 00:02:26,475 Next up, the BLM has finalized its oil 57 00:02:26,475 --> 00:02:29,995 and gas rule, which codifies fiscal reforms passed in the 58 00:02:29,995 --> 00:02:32,755 Inflation Reduction Act, as well as raises bonding rates. 59 00:02:33,265 --> 00:02:36,235 This will help ensure taxpayers receive fair compensation 60 00:02:36,255 --> 00:02:37,755 for drilling on public lands 61 00:02:37,755 --> 00:02:39,995 and don't get stuck cleaning up messes made 62 00:02:39,995 --> 00:02:41,315 by the oil and gas industry. 63 00:02:41,895 --> 00:02:44,395 The rule also directs BLM to prioritize oil 64 00:02:44,395 --> 00:02:47,115 and gas leasing on lands with high drilling potential 65 00:02:47,375 --> 00:02:49,555 and away from areas with high ecological 66 00:02:49,655 --> 00:02:50,915 and recreational value. 67 00:02:51,545 --> 00:02:54,355 This rule is the final step in a much needed overhaul 68 00:02:54,355 --> 00:02:55,635 of the federal leasing system, 69 00:02:55,735 --> 00:02:57,995 and we are so excited that it's finally done. 70 00:02:58,605 --> 00:03:01,405 We're expecting more rules to drop next week. So stay tuned. 71 00:03:01,615 --> 00:03:04,205 We'll go over all of these rules in an upcoming episode. 72 00:03:07,495 --> 00:03:10,685 Today we're joined by Trout Unlimited, CEO, Chris Wood. 73 00:03:10,975 --> 00:03:13,525 Chris has led Trout Unlimited for more than two dec. 74 00:03:13,665 --> 00:03:16,325 Uh, Chris has led Trout Unlimited for more than two decades, 75 00:03:16,555 --> 00:03:17,605 following a career 76 00:03:17,745 --> 00:03:20,205 as Chief Policy director at the US Forest Service 77 00:03:20,345 --> 00:03:22,005 during the Clinton administration. 78 00:03:22,375 --> 00:03:23,565 Chris, thanks for being here. 79 00:03:24,235 --> 00:03:25,645 - It's great to be here, Kate, good 80 00:03:25,645 --> 00:03:26,765 to see you and Aaron, too. 81 00:03:27,075 --> 00:03:30,085 - Awesome. So let's just start off with, um, 82 00:03:30,545 --> 00:03:33,245 an easy question, a softball, what is Trout Unlimited? 83 00:03:33,245 --> 00:03:35,205 What kind of work do you guys do on the ground? 84 00:03:36,345 --> 00:03:38,965 - So we're a conservation organization, um, 85 00:03:39,545 --> 00:03:41,245 that's comprised primarily, 86 00:03:41,265 --> 00:03:43,725 but not exclusively of people who love to fish. 87 00:03:44,785 --> 00:03:47,685 And, um, our mission is to recover 88 00:03:48,265 --> 00:03:49,885 and care for rivers 89 00:03:49,885 --> 00:03:51,565 and streams that are so important for trout 90 00:03:51,565 --> 00:03:52,725 and salmon so 91 00:03:52,725 --> 00:03:54,925 that our children can enjoy them in the future. 92 00:03:55,685 --> 00:03:58,675 - Enjoy. So tell us a little bit about what that actually, 93 00:03:58,935 --> 00:04:01,795 um, means in terms of policy work, uh, 94 00:04:01,915 --> 00:04:04,555 lobbying gr on the ground activities. 95 00:04:05,295 --> 00:04:06,395 - So we are, you know, 96 00:04:06,395 --> 00:04:08,915 it's interesting when you look across the pantheon 97 00:04:08,935 --> 00:04:13,515 of conservation organizations, there are many who do policy 98 00:04:13,615 --> 00:04:15,195 and advocacy and litigation. 99 00:04:15,535 --> 00:04:19,635 The Sierra Club, NRDC, wilderness Society, I could go on. 100 00:04:20,255 --> 00:04:23,475 And then there are a whole host of ones that do, uh, 101 00:04:23,615 --> 00:04:26,755 on the ground habitat restoration, ducks Unlimited, 102 00:04:27,235 --> 00:04:29,475 pheasants Forever, national Wild Turkey 103 00:04:29,565 --> 00:04:31,275 Federation and so on. 104 00:04:31,705 --> 00:04:33,915 There's only one organization that does both, 105 00:04:34,215 --> 00:04:35,555 and that's Trout Unlimited. 106 00:04:36,055 --> 00:04:39,995 And what we try to do is to leverage the goodwill 107 00:04:39,995 --> 00:04:44,205 that we create in thousands of communities across America 108 00:04:45,025 --> 00:04:47,565 by caring for and recovering rivers and streams 109 00:04:47,565 --> 00:04:49,565 and engaging communities in that work. 110 00:04:50,305 --> 00:04:54,645 We try to leverage that goodwill into advocacy, 111 00:04:54,835 --> 00:04:57,685 whether it's for a campaign like an effort 112 00:04:57,685 --> 00:04:59,245 to stop a boneheaded mine 113 00:04:59,905 --> 00:05:02,245 in Southwest Alaska in Bristol Bay, 114 00:05:02,905 --> 00:05:06,605 or an effort to pass common sense legislation 115 00:05:06,605 --> 00:05:10,385 that would make it easier for people who had nothing to do 116 00:05:10,385 --> 00:05:13,305 with the creation of historic mine pollution to clean it up. 117 00:05:13,995 --> 00:05:16,655 So that's essentially our business model is, 118 00:05:16,955 --> 00:05:18,495 and it's, it's a tenuous one. 119 00:05:18,555 --> 00:05:21,735 And there's a reason that many organizations don't do both 120 00:05:21,735 --> 00:05:26,255 things because, um, often, uh, when you're 121 00:05:26,905 --> 00:05:28,455 doing policy advocacy 122 00:05:28,455 --> 00:05:32,505 and you're doing litigation, you know, often not always, 123 00:05:32,615 --> 00:05:33,665 doesn't always have to be, 124 00:05:33,765 --> 00:05:36,145 but often it's, uh, uh, you know, can, 125 00:05:36,405 --> 00:05:38,025 can create an us versus them dynamic. 126 00:05:38,565 --> 00:05:40,865 You know, there's a lot of people who are really frustrated 127 00:05:40,865 --> 00:05:41,945 with Trout Unlimited right now 128 00:05:41,945 --> 00:05:43,065 because we're advocating 129 00:05:43,065 --> 00:05:45,985 to take out the four lower Snake River dams 130 00:05:46,615 --> 00:05:48,545 that could potentially affect our ability 131 00:05:48,545 --> 00:05:51,305 to work in their communities to do restoration. 132 00:05:51,405 --> 00:05:54,785 But we've managed to navigate that line for, you know, 133 00:05:54,785 --> 00:05:55,985 more than 60 years now. 134 00:05:56,045 --> 00:06:00,165 And, um, it's, it's, it's, uh, it makes things interesting. 135 00:06:01,385 --> 00:06:03,565 - So, as you think about that balancing act, 136 00:06:04,115 --> 00:06:05,925 both the policy side 137 00:06:05,985 --> 00:06:07,325 and the habitat side, 138 00:06:07,915 --> 00:06:11,005 what are the biggest threats right now facing rest Western 139 00:06:11,105 --> 00:06:12,365 rivers and watersheds? 140 00:06:12,365 --> 00:06:14,965 How much of, is it, much of it is driven by policy? 141 00:06:15,225 --> 00:06:18,485 How much of it is just cleaning up bad stuff in the past? 142 00:06:19,475 --> 00:06:21,085 - It's such a great question, Aaron. 143 00:06:21,595 --> 00:06:23,605 There's, there's a couple of answers. 144 00:06:23,795 --> 00:06:27,445 There's sort of this umbrella threat of climate change. 145 00:06:28,065 --> 00:06:30,725 You know, trout are sort of the, uh, you know, they're the, 146 00:06:31,305 --> 00:06:36,125 um, the, the fish canary in the coal mine, if you will. 147 00:06:36,785 --> 00:06:40,045 Uh, because, you know, scientists have predicted 148 00:06:40,045 --> 00:06:42,445 that if some of these temperature models are accurate, 149 00:06:42,545 --> 00:06:47,165 we could see up to 60%, uh, decreases in native, 150 00:06:47,625 --> 00:06:49,245 uh, trout in the Rockies. 151 00:06:50,145 --> 00:06:55,125 And, and so what part of what we do to, uh, counter 152 00:06:55,195 --> 00:06:59,465 that is we help to recover the natural resilience 153 00:06:59,685 --> 00:07:02,425 of rivers and streams through restoration. 154 00:07:02,765 --> 00:07:05,945 So these are systems that have been afflicted 155 00:07:05,945 --> 00:07:08,805 with development for 300 years, 156 00:07:09,705 --> 00:07:12,645 and we, what we do is we go in 157 00:07:12,645 --> 00:07:15,205 and we ident, we protect, reconnect, 158 00:07:15,205 --> 00:07:16,645 and restore these river systems. 159 00:07:16,785 --> 00:07:19,685 We basically make an effort to, for those systems 160 00:07:19,685 --> 00:07:21,985 that are intact, we make sure 161 00:07:21,985 --> 00:07:25,185 that they stay intact in perpetuity knowing that fish have 162 00:07:25,185 --> 00:07:26,465 to move through connected systems. 163 00:07:26,525 --> 00:07:30,025 So even if you protect roadless areas in a headwater system 164 00:07:30,125 --> 00:07:33,385 or designate a wilderness, those fish still need 165 00:07:33,385 --> 00:07:35,745 to move in response to flood, fire and drought. 166 00:07:35,885 --> 00:07:38,705 So we work to reconnect these systems as well, 167 00:07:38,805 --> 00:07:43,705 and that, that work takes, uh, a whole, uh, host of, uh, 168 00:07:43,705 --> 00:07:45,305 different, uh, meanings. 169 00:07:45,645 --> 00:07:49,875 It could be in systems like the Klamath in Oregon 170 00:07:50,015 --> 00:07:51,715 and Wash Oregon and California. 171 00:07:52,435 --> 00:07:55,545 We've already taken out one of the four Klamath dams 172 00:07:55,885 --> 00:07:58,625 and we're, we'll have the three others removed 173 00:07:59,675 --> 00:08:03,055 in the next two years, which will open up 450 miles 174 00:08:03,055 --> 00:08:05,535 of habitat for salmon that haven't been able 175 00:08:05,535 --> 00:08:08,255 to access those waters for over a hundred years. 176 00:08:09,715 --> 00:08:12,855 It can be that complicated. That was a 23 year endeavor. 177 00:08:13,275 --> 00:08:14,655 Um, uh, 178 00:08:15,035 --> 00:08:18,295 but it could be as simple as replumbing some of these rivers 179 00:08:18,315 --> 00:08:21,535 so that when you've got, like in coastal Oregon, you know, 180 00:08:21,675 --> 00:08:23,055 the, these are, uh, salmon 181 00:08:23,515 --> 00:08:27,255 and steelhead that don't actually have problems with dams. 182 00:08:27,485 --> 00:08:28,655 They're coastal systems. 183 00:08:29,085 --> 00:08:30,095 What they have problems 184 00:08:30,095 --> 00:08:32,895 with are the highways along the coast with, 185 00:08:32,955 --> 00:08:36,995 and every time a creek that a salmon wants to run up goes 186 00:08:36,995 --> 00:08:38,555 underneath the road, they put it 187 00:08:38,555 --> 00:08:39,955 through a culvert, which is a pipe. 188 00:08:40,375 --> 00:08:42,875 And oftentimes that pipe can become 189 00:08:43,425 --> 00:08:44,715 separated from the creek. 190 00:08:44,975 --> 00:08:48,195 It can actually be, it just literally is too high 191 00:08:48,815 --> 00:08:51,275 and it's not connected to the system any longer. 192 00:08:51,295 --> 00:08:54,475 And so we'll go in and replace those culverts with either, 193 00:08:54,985 --> 00:08:56,605 uh, arch list, culverts, 194 00:08:56,865 --> 00:09:00,565 or bridges so fish can move back up into those systems. 195 00:09:00,785 --> 00:09:05,445 And as of now, we've restored about 140 reconnected, 196 00:09:05,645 --> 00:09:08,805 I should say, about 140 miles of an ultimate goal 197 00:09:08,805 --> 00:09:11,445 of about 180 miles of habitat 198 00:09:11,465 --> 00:09:13,885 for those coastal stocks in partnership 199 00:09:13,885 --> 00:09:15,205 with a whole host of others. 200 00:09:15,945 --> 00:09:19,165 Um, and then finally, the, the, the bread 201 00:09:19,165 --> 00:09:21,405 and butter of our organization, uh, 202 00:09:22,055 --> 00:09:25,445 especially at our chapter level, we have 400 chapters 203 00:09:25,445 --> 00:09:28,485 of volunteers across the country, is to conduct restoration. 204 00:09:28,985 --> 00:09:33,515 And that, um, restoration often occurs in the valley 205 00:09:33,545 --> 00:09:35,955 bottoms, which were historically the most biologically 206 00:09:35,955 --> 00:09:37,555 productive portion of the landscape. 207 00:09:37,555 --> 00:09:40,195 But that we settled, you know, we rode it and we timbered 208 00:09:40,195 --> 00:09:42,595 and we mined, and, you know, we did all those things. 209 00:09:42,655 --> 00:09:45,475 And so by helping to protect, reconnect, 210 00:09:45,475 --> 00:09:48,155 and restore these priority waters 211 00:09:48,425 --> 00:09:50,955 that we've identified this national network 212 00:09:51,015 --> 00:09:52,595 of priority waters around the country, 213 00:09:53,665 --> 00:09:54,995 there's about 200 of them. 214 00:09:55,655 --> 00:09:57,035 We believe that we can help 215 00:09:57,095 --> 00:09:59,675 to build resilience into these systems so 216 00:09:59,675 --> 00:10:01,955 that they're better able to withstand the floods, the fire, 217 00:10:01,975 --> 00:10:05,475 and the drought that is gonna come, um, regardless 218 00:10:05,495 --> 00:10:08,235 of whether or not we stop emitting carbon tomorrow. 219 00:10:09,015 --> 00:10:12,035 Um, so that's essentially the work that we do. 220 00:10:12,045 --> 00:10:16,715 We're not as active on the, uh, uh, policy side 221 00:10:16,715 --> 00:10:17,795 of climate change simply 222 00:10:17,795 --> 00:10:20,235 because there's not a lot of activity right now. 223 00:10:20,775 --> 00:10:23,355 But what what we do is we work more on the, 224 00:10:23,355 --> 00:10:27,555 basically our whole conservation model is, uh, effectively, 225 00:10:27,975 --> 00:10:30,955 um, an adaptation strategy helping these systems 226 00:10:31,015 --> 00:10:32,435 to adapt to a change in climate. 227 00:10:33,135 --> 00:10:36,035 But, and, and that's, so that's climate change. 228 00:10:36,175 --> 00:10:41,065 And the reason that we try to make this very tactile 229 00:10:41,645 --> 00:10:45,375 is that, um, climate change is one of those issues 230 00:10:45,375 --> 00:10:46,855 where it's like, taxes, oh, 231 00:10:46,855 --> 00:10:48,415 climate change, what are you gonna do? 232 00:10:49,035 --> 00:10:53,505 And our job is to help regular, uh, 233 00:10:53,535 --> 00:10:56,105 community members understand whether they're members 234 00:10:56,365 --> 00:10:57,785 and supporters of TR Unlimited 235 00:10:57,785 --> 00:11:00,105 or not, that no, there are concrete actions 236 00:11:00,105 --> 00:11:03,585 that you can take today that will help not only to, 237 00:11:04,525 --> 00:11:06,545 you know, make fishing better in the future, 238 00:11:06,605 --> 00:11:07,985 but they're gonna help these communities. 239 00:11:07,985 --> 00:11:10,505 Because when you protect a headwater system, 240 00:11:10,965 --> 00:11:13,985 you're diminishing downstream water filtration costs. 241 00:11:14,245 --> 00:11:16,145 And when you allow, when you reconnect a river 242 00:11:16,165 --> 00:11:19,855 to its floodplain, you're diminishing the energy 243 00:11:20,155 --> 00:11:22,815 of the next flood downstream on the bridge or the other, 244 00:11:22,835 --> 00:11:24,655 or the road or the infrastructure that's there. 245 00:11:25,475 --> 00:11:28,695 And when we do the kind of watershed scale restoration 246 00:11:28,695 --> 00:11:31,255 that we do in hundreds of watersheds 247 00:11:31,255 --> 00:11:32,455 around the western United States, 248 00:11:32,785 --> 00:11:36,095 we're creating family wage jobs in rural communities. 249 00:11:36,635 --> 00:11:40,655 So, uh, those are some of the, the, some of the kinds 250 00:11:40,655 --> 00:11:42,855 of work that we do relative to climate change. 251 00:11:43,075 --> 00:11:46,855 But trout are very unique in that they're, um, 252 00:11:47,675 --> 00:11:49,615 as I said earlier, they're, they're, they're, 253 00:11:49,805 --> 00:11:51,215 they're an indicator species. 254 00:11:51,675 --> 00:11:55,565 And, um, as trout fair, so do we . 255 00:11:56,025 --> 00:11:57,565 And so we try to engage 256 00:11:57,625 --> 00:12:01,045 as broad a constituency in our work as we can. 257 00:12:01,045 --> 00:12:03,525 Whether or not they fish, uh, 258 00:12:03,625 --> 00:12:05,085 is really less important than that. 259 00:12:05,085 --> 00:12:06,885 They care about clean water, uh, 260 00:12:06,885 --> 00:12:08,365 and fishable, swimmable rivers. 261 00:12:09,115 --> 00:12:11,205 - Well that sounds like a lot of work 262 00:12:11,625 --> 00:12:12,845 and also a lot of money. 263 00:12:13,265 --> 00:12:17,485 Um, , how do you fund most of these projects? 264 00:12:17,505 --> 00:12:19,565 And, and I know that there was a fair amount 265 00:12:19,565 --> 00:12:21,125 of money in the infrastructure law 266 00:12:21,435 --> 00:12:25,045 that passed a few years ago for e ecosystem restoration, 267 00:12:25,045 --> 00:12:26,765 so I'm curious if you're leveraging that funding 268 00:12:26,785 --> 00:12:28,045 as well. It's 269 00:12:28,045 --> 00:12:29,485 - Great question, Kate. 270 00:12:29,705 --> 00:12:32,085 Um, in a, in a significant way, we are, 271 00:12:32,345 --> 00:12:36,485 we have secured about $130 million in, um, 272 00:12:36,665 --> 00:12:38,605 either inflation reduction act 273 00:12:38,625 --> 00:12:43,005 or bipartisan infrastructure law funding to do that kind 274 00:12:43,005 --> 00:12:45,165 of work that I just described, ecosystem resilience, 275 00:12:45,235 --> 00:12:46,525 watershed restoration. 276 00:12:47,345 --> 00:12:49,365 And that's probably only the beginning. 277 00:12:50,065 --> 00:12:54,335 Um, we have long worked with the federal 278 00:12:55,055 --> 00:12:57,575 agencies that are required to disperse this funding. 279 00:12:58,075 --> 00:13:00,135 Uh, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Forest Service, 280 00:13:00,195 --> 00:13:02,335 the Bureau of Land Management, the Bureau of Reclamation, 281 00:13:02,335 --> 00:13:05,775 they're all long, long time partners of Trout Unlimited. 282 00:13:06,715 --> 00:13:10,415 And so, uh, to date, we've secured about 130 million. 283 00:13:11,155 --> 00:13:15,135 Um, and I would say that of our restoration work, 284 00:13:15,155 --> 00:13:17,935 public funding, and that means, uh, federal 285 00:13:18,115 --> 00:13:22,035 and state, um, probably comprises about 286 00:13:22,915 --> 00:13:27,045 75% of our restoration funding. 287 00:13:27,825 --> 00:13:31,845 Um, and but that 25% is really important. 288 00:13:31,845 --> 00:13:33,085 That's private philanthropy. 289 00:13:33,185 --> 00:13:36,805 And that's what, you know, I I like to tell our supporters 290 00:13:36,805 --> 00:13:39,845 that you allow Trout unlimited employees 291 00:13:39,845 --> 00:13:40,845 to become alchemists 292 00:13:41,115 --> 00:13:42,605 because they can turn your 293 00:13:43,945 --> 00:13:48,925 $10,000 contribution into $150,000 in federal 294 00:13:48,925 --> 00:13:50,165 funding or state funding. 295 00:13:50,865 --> 00:13:53,685 And, and so, um, that's about the mix. 296 00:13:53,865 --> 00:13:57,005 I'd say it's about 75, uh, 25. 297 00:13:57,065 --> 00:13:59,925 And then we have, uh, for our broader policy work 298 00:13:59,925 --> 00:14:01,405 that is largely, obviously it's not 299 00:14:01,405 --> 00:14:02,605 funded by public funding. 300 00:14:02,625 --> 00:14:06,605 The policy work is either all, uh, private philanthropy, 301 00:14:06,605 --> 00:14:09,885 whether we're advocating for the Clean Water Act rules 302 00:14:10,225 --> 00:14:13,645 or, uh, to modernize the mining laws 303 00:14:13,825 --> 00:14:17,045 or to pass Good Samaritan legislation That's either, uh, 304 00:14:17,045 --> 00:14:19,925 either, uh, private philanthropy or foundation funding. 305 00:14:20,645 --> 00:14:22,925 - Hmm. So Chris, I wanna just go back 306 00:14:22,925 --> 00:14:24,885 and touch on the infrastructure law funding again. 307 00:14:25,435 --> 00:14:28,005 What, like, I'm curious, just in terms of the scale, 308 00:14:28,185 --> 00:14:29,965 has it sort of, has it like 309 00:14:30,685 --> 00:14:32,565 turbocharged the work you're able to do? 310 00:14:32,625 --> 00:14:34,525 Or is that an overstatement? 311 00:14:36,045 --> 00:14:38,245 - Turbocharged, I'm gonna write that down . 312 00:14:38,275 --> 00:14:39,605 It's exactly what it's done. 313 00:14:40,065 --> 00:14:41,965 So, so just to give you a sense 314 00:14:41,985 --> 00:14:44,805 of the turbocharging, we're sort of strange. 315 00:14:44,865 --> 00:14:46,605 Our fiscal year starts April one. 316 00:14:46,985 --> 00:14:49,005 Um, and we do that because of a, 317 00:14:49,105 --> 00:14:50,765 our field season is in the summer 318 00:14:50,785 --> 00:14:52,965 and we don't want the staff to have to, you know, 319 00:14:53,035 --> 00:14:56,605 stop their work in the field to, uh, get budgets together. 320 00:14:56,785 --> 00:15:00,795 But, so we're gonna finish this fiscal year somewhere 321 00:15:00,795 --> 00:15:03,515 around $85 million, 322 00:15:04,385 --> 00:15:08,395 and we're projecting, uh, next year to be 323 00:15:08,395 --> 00:15:10,195 around 130 million. 324 00:15:11,335 --> 00:15:13,675 So that's the kind of turbocharging it's provided. 325 00:15:13,865 --> 00:15:16,315 It's, it's allowed a dramatic, it's really, 326 00:15:16,385 --> 00:15:19,435 it's truly a once in a career for me. 327 00:15:19,795 --> 00:15:20,795 I could say generation, 328 00:15:21,075 --> 00:15:23,195 'cause I've been working about a generation, 329 00:15:23,575 --> 00:15:25,595 but it's a once in a career opportunity. 330 00:15:26,015 --> 00:15:29,315 And I remember back in, in 2008, 331 00:15:29,955 --> 00:15:31,875 I was on the Obama transition team, 332 00:15:32,455 --> 00:15:35,355 and there was talk of a, a big package, 333 00:15:35,675 --> 00:15:36,875 a big infrastructure package. 334 00:15:37,015 --> 00:15:40,195 And I remember it came in just short of a trillion dollars. 335 00:15:40,415 --> 00:15:42,515 And I was employed by Trout Unlimited. 336 00:15:42,515 --> 00:15:45,075 I was running our conservation programs at that point, 337 00:15:45,775 --> 00:15:47,835 and our government affairs VP 338 00:15:47,835 --> 00:15:49,795 and I tried desperately 339 00:15:50,415 --> 00:15:55,015 to build in ecosystem resilience, you know, natural 340 00:15:55,535 --> 00:15:58,735 resources, infrastructure as an element to that law. 341 00:15:58,995 --> 00:16:02,445 And we failed. But Congress did it this time 342 00:16:02,585 --> 00:16:04,805 and they did it in a really significant way. 343 00:16:04,905 --> 00:16:08,285 And, you know, over the next three 344 00:16:08,305 --> 00:16:11,045 or four years, you know, barring, you know, 345 00:16:11,155 --> 00:16:13,965 political consequences for that funding gets clawed back. 346 00:16:14,785 --> 00:16:18,125 We have an opportunity, like we've never had to help, 347 00:16:18,305 --> 00:16:20,885 as I said earlier, to recover the resilience of these rivers 348 00:16:20,885 --> 00:16:23,445 and streams that we to depend on so much. 349 00:16:24,825 --> 00:16:26,285 - You know, that's, it's interesting 350 00:16:26,285 --> 00:16:29,085 because we often think of the IRA as the climate bill, 351 00:16:29,505 --> 00:16:32,325 but obviously the infrastructure law has a lot of, 352 00:16:32,705 --> 00:16:36,125 of implications for, you know, improving our climate 353 00:16:36,185 --> 00:16:38,045 as well, which is really cool. Yeah. 354 00:16:38,045 --> 00:16:40,085 - Well, just to that point, Kate, you know, we, 355 00:16:40,225 --> 00:16:44,205 we secured a 40,000,005 year, $40 million agreement 356 00:16:44,205 --> 00:16:45,365 with the US Forest Service. 357 00:16:46,385 --> 00:16:49,925 If you looked at all of the native fish, fauna, trout 358 00:16:49,925 --> 00:16:51,485 and salmon fauna in the west, 359 00:16:52,025 --> 00:16:54,005 and then you looked at the Greenlands on a map, 360 00:16:54,005 --> 00:16:55,485 there's almost a perfect overlay. 361 00:16:56,025 --> 00:17:00,365 And so I think 7 million of that was infrastructure funding 362 00:17:00,785 --> 00:17:03,565 and the balance came from the Inflation reduction Act. 363 00:17:03,705 --> 00:17:06,765 So it's just a, it's a tremendous opportunity. 364 00:17:06,795 --> 00:17:09,845 It's, it's a once in a career opportunity to, you know, 365 00:17:09,915 --> 00:17:11,245 make hay while the sun is shining. 366 00:17:13,235 --> 00:17:15,095 - You mentioned abandoned mines earlier, 367 00:17:15,235 --> 00:17:17,615 and obviously this is something we're all aware of, 368 00:17:17,715 --> 00:17:20,895 living in the West, you drive down I 70 in Colorado, 369 00:17:21,035 --> 00:17:24,055 you drive through any state highways in Arizona 370 00:17:24,155 --> 00:17:26,015 and you, you see the remains of 371 00:17:26,585 --> 00:17:28,295 mines sitting there by the side of the road. 372 00:17:28,875 --> 00:17:31,975 But how big of a problem is it? 373 00:17:31,975 --> 00:17:36,015 Give us a sense of the scale, uh, as far as watersheds 374 00:17:36,015 --> 00:17:37,175 and rivers go. 375 00:17:37,395 --> 00:17:39,975 How many are, are threatened and, 376 00:17:40,075 --> 00:17:43,375 and what do we need to do to, to mitigate these issues? 377 00:17:43,475 --> 00:17:45,015 And is it getting worse with time? 378 00:17:45,675 --> 00:17:48,695 - Thanks Aaron. Yeah, so just to give you a sense 379 00:17:48,695 --> 00:17:52,925 of the scope and the scale, EPA estimates that 40% 380 00:17:53,025 --> 00:17:57,075 of western headwater systems, higher order systems 381 00:17:57,075 --> 00:18:00,635 that are up in the mountains are deleteriously affected 382 00:18:00,735 --> 00:18:03,115 by these abandoned hard rock mines. 383 00:18:03,715 --> 00:18:06,295 And to be clear, these aren't Superfund sites, these aren't 384 00:18:07,605 --> 00:18:10,235 mines where the government can go find a 385 00:18:10,235 --> 00:18:12,035 polluter and hold them accountable. The, the, 386 00:18:12,035 --> 00:18:13,995 - These are old, the old timey prospector era. 387 00:18:14,565 --> 00:18:17,075 - These are old timey prospector era mines. 388 00:18:17,075 --> 00:18:18,195 And I'll tell you a story. 389 00:18:18,875 --> 00:18:19,915 I just recalled this 390 00:18:20,115 --> 00:18:23,675 'cause I wrote about it recently when I came to, I came 391 00:18:23,675 --> 00:18:25,995 to Trout Unlimited, I just a quick correction, Kate. 392 00:18:26,155 --> 00:18:29,395 I actually have only led it since 2010, 393 00:18:29,815 --> 00:18:31,475 but I've been here, uh, 394 00:18:31,475 --> 00:18:34,355 since I worked at the Forest Service in 2001. 395 00:18:34,855 --> 00:18:39,035 And I remember we, we, I came over, excuse me, 396 00:18:39,855 --> 00:18:43,055 readjust, promulgated this thing called the Roadless Area 397 00:18:43,175 --> 00:18:44,295 Conservation Rule. 398 00:18:44,355 --> 00:18:46,775 It protected 60 million acres of land. 399 00:18:47,075 --> 00:18:50,015 And so I was sort of high on this idea that we can do this 400 00:18:51,575 --> 00:18:52,895 conservation at scale 401 00:18:53,165 --> 00:18:55,535 because we had been able to, you know, get 402 00:18:55,535 --> 00:18:58,175 that regulation passed in 18 months 403 00:18:58,755 --> 00:19:00,535 and protected 60%, 404 00:19:00,595 --> 00:19:02,815 or I'm sorry, 60 million acres, you know, 2% 405 00:19:02,815 --> 00:19:03,815 of the American land mass. 406 00:19:03,835 --> 00:19:07,055 It was amazing. So I came to tu full of these big ideas, 407 00:19:07,155 --> 00:19:10,175 and the biggest was, oh, we're gonna be able to, 408 00:19:10,175 --> 00:19:12,335 we're gonna be able to pass a law to make it easier 409 00:19:12,355 --> 00:19:13,735 to clean up abandoned mines. 410 00:19:13,735 --> 00:19:15,775 They, they negatively affect 40% 411 00:19:15,775 --> 00:19:17,615 of Western headwater streams. 412 00:19:17,615 --> 00:19:19,335 There's about 500,000 of 'em out there. 413 00:19:19,595 --> 00:19:20,895 Not, not all are created equal, 414 00:19:21,075 --> 00:19:23,895 but about 110,000 pollute water. 415 00:19:24,555 --> 00:19:27,545 And we went to, and we found, 416 00:19:27,685 --> 00:19:29,225 and there's, we can talk more about this, 417 00:19:29,285 --> 00:19:32,965 but there's, uh, provisions of the two of the most important 418 00:19:33,595 --> 00:19:36,125 laws in America for stopping pollution 419 00:19:36,425 --> 00:19:37,845 and holding polluters accountable. 420 00:19:38,025 --> 00:19:40,565 The Clean Water Act in c the Superfund law 421 00:19:41,365 --> 00:19:43,845 actually provide a profound disincentive 422 00:19:44,695 --> 00:19:47,635 for would be good Samaritans organizations like Trout 423 00:19:47,635 --> 00:19:49,515 Unlimited who wanna go out and make things better. 424 00:19:49,575 --> 00:19:52,515 We had nothing to do with the creation of the pollution, 425 00:19:52,575 --> 00:19:53,705 but you know, 426 00:19:53,945 --> 00:19:55,625 remember I talked about the Forest Service lands 427 00:19:55,625 --> 00:19:58,265 and native fish, when you look at where abandoned mines are, 428 00:19:58,265 --> 00:19:59,465 and then you look at where trout 429 00:19:59,465 --> 00:20:02,305 and salmon are, it's another perfect overlay . 430 00:20:02,725 --> 00:20:04,905 And so I thought, well, this'll be a no-brainer. 431 00:20:05,635 --> 00:20:10,225 Let's go out and find a site where we can model the work 432 00:20:10,225 --> 00:20:12,425 that we wanna do, and then we can take that back 433 00:20:12,425 --> 00:20:15,025 to Capitol Hill and convince them of the righteousness 434 00:20:15,025 --> 00:20:17,305 of our cause and how common sense it is. 435 00:20:17,725 --> 00:20:20,825 So we, we, we went to Snowbird Ski 436 00:20:20,825 --> 00:20:23,385 and Summer Resort, you guys have probably heard of Snowbird, 437 00:20:24,295 --> 00:20:27,035 and it's between, uh, Provo and Salt Lake City. 438 00:20:27,535 --> 00:20:30,635 And so we wanted two population centers that were nearby, 439 00:20:31,095 --> 00:20:33,675 and they had a bunch of old abandoned minds. 440 00:20:33,675 --> 00:20:35,635 And I remember I took a trip out there 441 00:20:35,695 --> 00:20:38,275 and I walked the field with our engineer 442 00:20:38,535 --> 00:20:39,795 who was gonna do the cleanup. 443 00:20:40,855 --> 00:20:44,755 His name was Ted. And Ted seat said, you see those, uh, 444 00:20:44,825 --> 00:20:46,075 dirt bike trails over there? 445 00:20:46,495 --> 00:20:47,925 And I said, yeah, I can see 'em. 446 00:20:47,925 --> 00:20:49,325 And they were going over these mounds 447 00:20:49,325 --> 00:20:50,605 and he says, those are tailings, 448 00:20:51,345 --> 00:20:55,685 the lead levels in those tailings are 1100 times the 449 00:20:55,685 --> 00:20:57,205 federal standard. 450 00:20:57,865 --> 00:21:00,245 And so kids were riding their dirt bikes over these 451 00:21:00,245 --> 00:21:04,365 tailings, kicking up dust obviously, and breathing in it. 452 00:21:05,025 --> 00:21:07,685 And, and in that creek down below, uh, 453 00:21:07,685 --> 00:21:08,965 it's called American Four Creek, 454 00:21:08,965 --> 00:21:10,925 there were these Bonneville cutthroat trout, 455 00:21:10,925 --> 00:21:14,005 which is an imperiled, uh, trout species, um, 456 00:21:14,005 --> 00:21:15,525 that we, we care a lot about. 457 00:21:15,585 --> 00:21:20,185 And so we, uh, we went 458 00:21:20,185 --> 00:21:22,385 to the EPA, this is during the Bush administration, 459 00:21:23,005 --> 00:21:26,225 and we said, Hey, we'd like to clean these things up. 460 00:21:26,565 --> 00:21:28,875 And um, the problem is 461 00:21:28,875 --> 00:21:32,035 that EPA is a wonderful regulatory agency, 462 00:21:32,495 --> 00:21:34,835 but what they're not is a permitting agency. 463 00:21:35,305 --> 00:21:38,435 They're not accustomed to allowing, uh, 464 00:21:38,435 --> 00:21:39,755 an organization like ours. 465 00:21:40,615 --> 00:21:44,155 So, so Snowbird was technically responsible 466 00:21:44,175 --> 00:21:46,875 for these mines cleaning these up there wasn't 467 00:21:46,875 --> 00:21:49,035 because it's their land now because it was their land. 468 00:21:49,035 --> 00:21:50,795 Right, exactly. Once you acquire the land, 469 00:21:51,095 --> 00:21:52,235 you buy a liability 470 00:21:52,545 --> 00:21:54,275 - Including all the problems on it, okay? 471 00:21:54,335 --> 00:21:55,435 - Yep. Including all the problems. 472 00:21:55,435 --> 00:21:56,435 And, and that's part of the problem 473 00:21:56,535 --> 00:21:59,195 for a wouldbe Good Samaritan, once you go in 474 00:21:59,195 --> 00:22:00,395 and touch that mine, 475 00:22:00,505 --> 00:22:02,475 even if you make things materially better, 476 00:22:02,975 --> 00:22:04,435 you become part of the chain of custody. 477 00:22:05,135 --> 00:22:06,315 - So now it's your problem too, 478 00:22:06,675 --> 00:22:08,795 - , and, and either the government can come 479 00:22:08,795 --> 00:22:10,395 after you, which frankly is unlikely 480 00:22:10,815 --> 00:22:13,595 or more likely someone who lives in the area, 481 00:22:13,865 --> 00:22:15,835 just a citizen could file a citizen 482 00:22:15,865 --> 00:22:17,075 suit under the Clean Water Act. 483 00:22:17,075 --> 00:22:19,115 And four, you could spend a couple hundred grand 484 00:22:19,175 --> 00:22:21,995 to make it 90% better, and then, 485 00:22:22,655 --> 00:22:23,915 but it might be 5 million 486 00:22:24,095 --> 00:22:25,835 to build a wastewater treatment plant 487 00:22:25,835 --> 00:22:27,075 to make it a hundred percent better. 488 00:22:27,535 --> 00:22:30,035 And they could sue you and you could lose that case. 489 00:22:30,495 --> 00:22:33,755 So we, we started negotiating with the EPA 490 00:22:33,755 --> 00:22:35,115 and the EPA is a great partner. 491 00:22:35,255 --> 00:22:36,875 I'm not casting aspersions on them, 492 00:22:37,015 --> 00:22:40,185 but there was a, a moment in time, 493 00:22:40,925 --> 00:22:43,105 and my friends at EPA don't like when I tell this story, 494 00:22:43,125 --> 00:22:46,665 but there was a moment when there were about 14 EPA 495 00:22:47,165 --> 00:22:50,785 and Department of Justice lawyers on the phone negotiating 496 00:22:50,785 --> 00:22:52,145 with me who, 497 00:22:52,395 --> 00:22:57,345 whose law experience encompasses taking four Stanley Kaplan 498 00:22:57,465 --> 00:23:00,785 courses before I dropped out of the LSATs. 499 00:23:01,535 --> 00:23:03,595 Um, and then our general counsel 500 00:23:04,335 --> 00:23:08,435 and the lead negotiator for the EPA actually said to us, 501 00:23:08,565 --> 00:23:12,195 we're giving you a better deal than we've given any other 502 00:23:12,515 --> 00:23:15,805 PRP ever potentially responsible party. 503 00:23:16,225 --> 00:23:19,125 And, and our point was, but we're not responsible. 504 00:23:19,545 --> 00:23:22,045 And so what this Good Samaritan legislation 505 00:23:22,395 --> 00:23:26,045 that you asked about, uh, Aaron would do is it would, 506 00:23:26,315 --> 00:23:27,325 it's a pilot program 507 00:23:27,325 --> 00:23:31,105 because we've, I thought foolishly 20 years ago, 508 00:23:31,105 --> 00:23:32,425 this was gonna be an easy lift 509 00:23:32,725 --> 00:23:37,065 and that we'd be able to convince the Congress of, as I say, 510 00:23:37,065 --> 00:23:38,505 of the righteousness of our way. 511 00:23:39,245 --> 00:23:40,785 And, uh, I was wrong. 512 00:23:41,085 --> 00:23:43,985 So we, we gave up on the big permitting program, 513 00:23:44,205 --> 00:23:48,125 and instead it's a pilot of 15 projects where you have 514 00:23:48,125 --> 00:23:49,685 to come up with a plan of operation. 515 00:23:50,065 --> 00:23:52,245 It goes through notice and comment under nepa. 516 00:23:52,275 --> 00:23:54,285 It's not exempt from NEPA or anything, 517 00:23:54,865 --> 00:23:57,925 and then it goes to the EPA for approval. 518 00:23:58,425 --> 00:24:00,765 So if, and if you do what you said you were gonna do, 519 00:24:00,995 --> 00:24:03,125 even if you don't get to a hundred percent 520 00:24:03,345 --> 00:24:06,405 of water quality standards, um, you can do 521 00:24:06,405 --> 00:24:07,805 that project and walk away. 522 00:24:08,185 --> 00:24:11,805 Now that said, if you make matters worse, you are liable. 523 00:24:12,895 --> 00:24:15,155 So this is, this isn't, you 524 00:24:15,155 --> 00:24:16,555 - Do have to, you do have to make it better. 525 00:24:16,655 --> 00:24:17,955 At least it's, you've, 526 00:24:17,975 --> 00:24:18,975 - You've gotta make it better. 527 00:24:18,975 --> 00:24:20,475 You have to do what you said you were gonna do 528 00:24:20,475 --> 00:24:21,675 when you've gotta make it better. 529 00:24:21,815 --> 00:24:23,115 And it has to be measurable. 530 00:24:23,735 --> 00:24:27,395 And as of now, tha thanks to the leadership of, uh, 531 00:24:27,475 --> 00:24:30,395 senators Heinrich, a democrat from New Mexico, 532 00:24:30,535 --> 00:24:34,315 and Rich, a Republican from Idaho, we have 36 533 00:24:35,025 --> 00:24:37,755 co-sponsors, half Democrats, half Republicans 534 00:24:38,415 --> 00:24:39,555 on that bill in the Senate. 535 00:24:39,695 --> 00:24:42,115 And we're about to introduce it in the house. 536 00:24:42,855 --> 00:24:46,035 Um, and I feel as confident as I've ever felt 537 00:24:46,035 --> 00:24:47,035 that we'll get this done. 538 00:24:47,665 --> 00:24:50,635 It's a bill that has a seven year time horizon to it. 539 00:24:51,095 --> 00:24:52,235 And the idea is 540 00:24:52,235 --> 00:24:55,595 that over seven years we'll get these 15 projects done 541 00:24:55,975 --> 00:24:57,235 and then come back to Congress 542 00:24:57,255 --> 00:24:58,995 and say, look, we can do this. 543 00:24:59,445 --> 00:25:00,715 Let's take it to scale. 544 00:25:01,165 --> 00:25:03,435 Let's begin to make it so that our, again, 545 00:25:03,435 --> 00:25:06,115 our rivers are more drinkable, fishable and swimmable. 546 00:25:06,535 --> 00:25:07,595 - That's really exciting. 547 00:25:07,815 --> 00:25:10,275 So you, you have a good feeling that that's gonna pass? 548 00:25:11,155 --> 00:25:14,155 - I do. I do. And I, I actually think it, it, it may 549 00:25:14,155 --> 00:25:16,395 or may not be part of a broader package. 550 00:25:17,135 --> 00:25:19,515 One of the challenges we have in this country is 551 00:25:19,515 --> 00:25:21,835 that unlike every other commodity 552 00:25:21,945 --> 00:25:26,835 that is produced off public lands, there's no either tax 553 00:25:27,015 --> 00:25:30,635 or royalty on the production of minerals from public lands. 554 00:25:31,215 --> 00:25:36,095 So, uh, unlike coal, say, uh, 555 00:25:36,095 --> 00:25:38,855 they have an abandoned mine Land fund, which is part 556 00:25:38,855 --> 00:25:41,615 of the surface Mine Coal Reclamation Act 557 00:25:42,045 --> 00:25:43,135 that abandoned mine. 558 00:25:43,135 --> 00:25:45,815 Land Fund has generated over 11 billion, 559 00:25:46,015 --> 00:25:49,135 I think it's $12 billion in funds. 560 00:25:49,365 --> 00:25:53,015 Basically it's a tax on the production of coal that go into 561 00:25:53,835 --> 00:25:56,055 an abandoned mine land fund, which 562 00:25:56,895 --> 00:26:00,945 communities across Appalachia and in places like Colorado 563 00:26:01,045 --> 00:26:02,785 and Wyoming and other Montana, 564 00:26:02,835 --> 00:26:05,465 other coal mining states out west have used 565 00:26:05,465 --> 00:26:07,225 to clean up abandoned coal mines. 566 00:26:07,605 --> 00:26:10,665 We don't have an analog like that with hard rock funding. 567 00:26:10,965 --> 00:26:12,745 So hard rock mining rather. 568 00:26:12,965 --> 00:26:17,845 So part of the challenge is to try to modernize 569 00:26:18,385 --> 00:26:20,765 and, and, and we may wanna talk about this a little bit, 570 00:26:20,765 --> 00:26:24,775 but there's an a, a demand right now to build, to, 571 00:26:24,875 --> 00:26:25,895 to build more of these. 572 00:26:25,895 --> 00:26:28,295 So-called critical minerals 573 00:26:28,355 --> 00:26:30,695 or rare earth mineral mines, uh, 574 00:26:30,695 --> 00:26:32,575 to power the clean energy future. 575 00:26:33,235 --> 00:26:35,735 And I think there's a grand bargain that's just waiting 576 00:26:35,735 --> 00:26:39,015 to be had where we could pass common sense legislation like 577 00:26:40,145 --> 00:26:41,885 the Good Samaritan legislation, which 578 00:26:42,445 --> 00:26:44,070 there's almost nobody opposed to it. 579 00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:45,865 I mean, there's, there's no constituency 580 00:26:45,865 --> 00:26:47,465 for Yellow Rivers , right? 581 00:26:47,465 --> 00:26:49,985 There's no, no lobby group is advocating 582 00:26:49,985 --> 00:26:51,905 for more orange rivers in, in the west. 583 00:26:52,525 --> 00:26:56,745 Um, but if we could modernize the 1872 mining lawn 584 00:26:56,765 --> 00:27:00,385 and create attacks a royalty on the production of minerals, 585 00:27:01,045 --> 00:27:05,065 and perhaps allow a little more discretion into the process 586 00:27:05,235 --> 00:27:06,905 where you decide where to mine, 587 00:27:07,485 --> 00:27:09,425 we could probably make it a little bit easier 588 00:27:10,085 --> 00:27:11,665 or facilitate the development 589 00:27:11,665 --> 00:27:14,145 of these critical minerals in the right places. 590 00:27:14,885 --> 00:27:18,265 And I'm optimistic that not only will we get good Sam done, 591 00:27:18,725 --> 00:27:20,905 but that we can come up with that grand bargain 592 00:27:21,405 --> 00:27:23,305 to better meet the needs of the country while 593 00:27:23,305 --> 00:27:24,385 protecting the environment. 594 00:27:25,325 --> 00:27:27,585 - So you did mention critical minerals 595 00:27:27,645 --> 00:27:31,225 and just the, this need to, to mine more in order 596 00:27:31,285 --> 00:27:34,025 to power the renewable energy transition. 597 00:27:34,485 --> 00:27:37,465 Um, obviously earlier you mentioned climate change as one 598 00:27:37,465 --> 00:27:40,145 of the biggest threats to Western watersheds. 599 00:27:40,245 --> 00:27:44,305 So, um, I'm curious where you fall on this question 600 00:27:44,305 --> 00:27:47,945 of new mining, because obviously mining mines are one 601 00:27:47,945 --> 00:27:49,425 of the biggest threats to watersheds. 602 00:27:49,425 --> 00:27:51,025 Climate change is one of the biggest threats. 603 00:27:51,605 --> 00:27:53,825 How do you balance the trade off there 604 00:27:53,825 --> 00:27:57,585 and what do you see as, um, how do you, how do you think 605 00:27:57,585 --> 00:28:00,105 that the conservation community should be thinking about 606 00:28:00,105 --> 00:28:01,425 this issue of new mining? 607 00:28:02,695 --> 00:28:04,185 - It's, it's a great question, Kate. 608 00:28:04,305 --> 00:28:07,805 I mean, the mining in America has to happen. 609 00:28:08,065 --> 00:28:10,525 It has to happen. Or we have to accept the fact 610 00:28:10,795 --> 00:28:12,845 that it will happen in third world countries 611 00:28:12,845 --> 00:28:14,725 where they don't have environmental standards 612 00:28:14,985 --> 00:28:17,725 and they're forcing children to go into, 613 00:28:17,815 --> 00:28:19,525 mines literally barefoot 614 00:28:19,905 --> 00:28:22,405 to mine without any child labor laws. 615 00:28:23,105 --> 00:28:25,565 We import right now 60% of all 616 00:28:25,565 --> 00:28:26,965 of our critical minerals from China. 617 00:28:27,545 --> 00:28:29,525 And that's simply not sustainable. 618 00:28:30,025 --> 00:28:34,245 And, you know, so, so what we try to do, you know, try 619 00:28:34,245 --> 00:28:36,205 to unlimit it is sort of an we're equal 620 00:28:36,205 --> 00:28:37,765 opportunity conservationists. 621 00:28:38,255 --> 00:28:41,125 We'll work with anybody who cares about conservation. 622 00:28:41,545 --> 00:28:43,405 And what I think needs to happen is we have 623 00:28:43,405 --> 00:28:46,565 to get the industry to agree that first of all, 624 00:28:46,565 --> 00:28:47,645 there should be a royalty. 625 00:28:47,945 --> 00:28:50,605 And second of all, there should be some discretion lent. 626 00:28:50,605 --> 00:28:53,885 Right now, the 1872 Mining law says we we're, 627 00:28:54,055 --> 00:28:56,885 we're operating mining in this country on a law 628 00:28:56,885 --> 00:29:00,825 that was passed when Ulysses s Grant became president. 629 00:29:00,845 --> 00:29:02,105 He was president for two terms. 630 00:29:02,335 --> 00:29:03,745 This is passed in his first term. 631 00:29:04,405 --> 00:29:07,865 And so, you know, what, what we need to do is 632 00:29:09,195 --> 00:29:11,915 convince the industry that they should be subject 633 00:29:11,975 --> 00:29:12,995 to a royalty. 634 00:29:13,255 --> 00:29:16,155 And I'm not an expert in what the royalty should be, 635 00:29:16,535 --> 00:29:19,115 but we needed to clean up the legacy of bad, 636 00:29:19,955 --> 00:29:23,015 of not bad mines, of mines from history 637 00:29:23,065 --> 00:29:26,255 where bad things happened and people were well-intentioned. 638 00:29:26,295 --> 00:29:27,335 I don't think they knew what they were doing, 639 00:29:27,515 --> 00:29:29,735 but you know, we've got a tremendous legacy 640 00:29:29,795 --> 00:29:31,895 of pollution to attend to. 641 00:29:32,195 --> 00:29:34,135 And a royalty would help with that. 642 00:29:34,735 --> 00:29:37,475 And the second thing we need the industry to do is to agree 643 00:29:37,475 --> 00:29:40,235 that there should be some places where you can't mine, 644 00:29:40,265 --> 00:29:42,285 because right now, under this law 645 00:29:42,285 --> 00:29:44,725 that was passed when Ulysses Es Grant was president, 646 00:29:46,065 --> 00:29:48,685 if the minor, if the company can actually prove 647 00:29:48,715 --> 00:29:52,925 that they can make a profit, the agency is not allowed 648 00:29:53,305 --> 00:29:54,805 to say no to the mine, 649 00:29:55,535 --> 00:29:57,705 whoever the relevant regulatory agency is. 650 00:29:58,245 --> 00:29:59,585 And that's ludicrous 651 00:29:59,585 --> 00:30:01,265 because there are sacred sites, 652 00:30:01,265 --> 00:30:03,825 there are drinking water supplies, you know, 653 00:30:03,825 --> 00:30:06,625 there are just areas that are culturally 654 00:30:06,685 --> 00:30:09,185 or environmentally sensitive 655 00:30:09,185 --> 00:30:13,545 or significant that these agencies should be able to say, 656 00:30:13,715 --> 00:30:16,265 these lands are not suitable for mining at this time. 657 00:30:17,215 --> 00:30:18,425 They can't do that today. 658 00:30:18,925 --> 00:30:22,705 But in return for giving those two things up, 659 00:30:23,555 --> 00:30:26,155 I think the, we ought to be willing to say 660 00:30:26,155 --> 00:30:27,955 that there's probably some way 661 00:30:28,695 --> 00:30:31,155 to expedite the permit process in places 662 00:30:31,155 --> 00:30:33,515 where you're not gonna have that kind of degradation 663 00:30:33,855 --> 00:30:35,915 to crucial resources so 664 00:30:35,915 --> 00:30:38,395 that we can provide the critical minerals 665 00:30:38,695 --> 00:30:41,635 and rare earth minerals that we need to, you know, 666 00:30:41,685 --> 00:30:43,275 power up our iPhones 667 00:30:43,695 --> 00:30:46,115 and allow the battery charge to hold longer 668 00:30:46,255 --> 00:30:50,755 or allow the, the solar panels to, um, extend their charge. 669 00:30:51,095 --> 00:30:53,115 You know, there, there's a whole host 670 00:30:53,135 --> 00:30:55,635 of reasons we need these minerals. 671 00:30:55,655 --> 00:30:58,115 And I think if we go about this in a thoughtful way, 672 00:30:58,135 --> 00:31:01,555 we can strike a, a really reasonable compromise that allows 673 00:31:01,575 --> 00:31:05,315 for the protection of cr critical areas while also 674 00:31:06,035 --> 00:31:08,435 allowing expediting mining in areas that, you know, 675 00:31:08,435 --> 00:31:10,515 will help us with the clean energy transition. 676 00:31:11,165 --> 00:31:13,795 - Chris, as you were talking, I remembered something 677 00:31:13,825 --> 00:31:16,595 that I learned about, about a year ago. 678 00:31:17,055 --> 00:31:19,395 Um, the, the Earth MRI, 679 00:31:19,415 --> 00:31:22,435 the USGS is currently undertaking this effort 680 00:31:22,535 --> 00:31:24,235 to actually figure out where all 681 00:31:24,235 --> 00:31:27,115 of the minerals are underground in the us. 682 00:31:27,815 --> 00:31:30,235 Um, and it seems like that would be really useful 683 00:31:30,295 --> 00:31:32,395 to do the type of planning that you're talking about. 684 00:31:32,695 --> 00:31:36,275 Um, you know, the BLM is work, working on a plan right now 685 00:31:36,425 --> 00:31:38,435 that would expedite solar permitting in 686 00:31:38,435 --> 00:31:39,675 areas with a lot of sun. 687 00:31:40,215 --> 00:31:42,035 So do you see something similar to 688 00:31:42,035 --> 00:31:43,475 that being a solution here? 689 00:31:43,945 --> 00:31:45,115 - Yeah, you know, it's interesting. 690 00:31:45,335 --> 00:31:49,115 Um, we actually have done some of that mapping 691 00:31:49,345 --> 00:31:51,795 that sh Trout Unlimited that shows 692 00:31:52,605 --> 00:31:54,915 where the known critical minerals are. 693 00:31:54,915 --> 00:31:57,715 Granted we're not geologists by and large, 694 00:31:58,055 --> 00:32:00,915 but that shows where the critical minerals are 695 00:32:00,915 --> 00:32:02,235 and then where the, you know, 696 00:32:02,235 --> 00:32:04,715 the high conflict areas are likely to be. 697 00:32:05,255 --> 00:32:08,515 And again, sort of like I used to work for the chief 698 00:32:08,535 --> 00:32:10,155 of the forest services I mentioned earlier, 699 00:32:10,215 --> 00:32:13,035 and he would, he would always say that, you know, there's, 700 00:32:13,425 --> 00:32:17,355 there's, uh, there's three kinds of issues about, 701 00:32:17,775 --> 00:32:20,755 he said about 10% of the issues are red light issues 702 00:32:20,885 --> 00:32:24,275 where you just don't agree with the person across the table. 703 00:32:24,855 --> 00:32:27,755 And he said there's probably 20% that are green light 704 00:32:27,775 --> 00:32:31,875 or uh, uh, yellow light issues where, you know, you know, 705 00:32:31,875 --> 00:32:34,115 we can probably figure out a, a path forward, 706 00:32:34,215 --> 00:32:36,275 but it's not, we're not in total agreement. 707 00:32:36,695 --> 00:32:38,075 And then the balance are all green. 708 00:32:38,695 --> 00:32:41,245 And this to me feels like a yellow light issue. 709 00:32:41,505 --> 00:32:45,965 If we could, again, sit down with the industry, find out 710 00:32:45,965 --> 00:32:49,485 what the, uh, I mean I met with a mining company, 711 00:32:49,845 --> 00:32:52,725 CEOI don't know, um, two and a half months ago, 712 00:32:52,725 --> 00:32:55,965 and they told me it's taken them 20 years to try 713 00:32:55,965 --> 00:32:59,205 to get a mine constructed in one of their Western states. 714 00:33:00,035 --> 00:33:01,605 That shouldn't be the case. They shouldn't have 715 00:33:01,605 --> 00:33:02,805 to waste all that time and money. 716 00:33:03,185 --> 00:33:06,045 We should, we should give the agency managers the ability 717 00:33:06,065 --> 00:33:07,085 to say because, 718 00:33:07,085 --> 00:33:09,045 because they don't have the ability to say no. 719 00:33:09,105 --> 00:33:10,725 Now what they do is they stall 720 00:33:11,385 --> 00:33:13,645 and that just wastes everybody's time and it wastes money. 721 00:33:14,105 --> 00:33:15,685 So give them the ability upfront 722 00:33:15,785 --> 00:33:18,005 before these companies have sunk millions 723 00:33:18,005 --> 00:33:20,925 and millions of dollars, give them the ability to say, no, 724 00:33:21,315 --> 00:33:23,045 this is not a good place to mine. 725 00:33:23,635 --> 00:33:26,885 This is a sacred site for a local, for an indigenous tribe, 726 00:33:27,345 --> 00:33:29,405 and we're not gonna allow you to mine here. 727 00:33:29,435 --> 00:33:31,405 Okay? The mining company can then say, fine, 728 00:33:31,785 --> 00:33:34,005 I'm not gonna spend the next 19 years then 729 00:33:34,005 --> 00:33:35,045 trying to get in here. 730 00:33:35,545 --> 00:33:37,445 I'm gonna go put my resources somewhere else 731 00:33:37,445 --> 00:33:41,925 where I know I've got a, an either an orange or, or a yellow 732 00:33:42,065 --> 00:33:43,245 or a or a green light. 733 00:33:43,745 --> 00:33:47,045 And that's what the 1872 Mining Law doesn't do. 734 00:33:47,345 --> 00:33:50,955 And what I, what my, my friends in the industry, 735 00:33:51,055 --> 00:33:53,515 and I don't say that sarcastically, they, 736 00:33:54,295 --> 00:33:55,955 the mining industry is supporting a lot 737 00:33:55,955 --> 00:33:58,315 of our abandoned mine cleanup 'cause they don't wanna do it 738 00:33:58,675 --> 00:34:00,355 'cause they don't wanna be part of the chain of liability. 739 00:34:00,355 --> 00:34:02,115 So they give it to us. But , 740 00:34:02,535 --> 00:34:05,095 but you know, I i I tell 'em 741 00:34:05,095 --> 00:34:07,735 that the 1872 mining law is the biggest bugaboo. 742 00:34:07,965 --> 00:34:09,975 It's the, it's the anvil around your neck. 743 00:34:10,565 --> 00:34:12,055 It's what's dragging them down. 744 00:34:12,415 --> 00:34:14,575 'cause number one, it doesn't allow them to deal 745 00:34:14,575 --> 00:34:15,775 with these legacy sites, 746 00:34:15,985 --> 00:34:17,655 which gives the industry a bad name. 747 00:34:18,075 --> 00:34:20,695 And then number two, it makes it harder 748 00:34:20,835 --> 00:34:23,015 to permit these mines moving forward, 749 00:34:23,305 --> 00:34:25,375 especially when they're in really controversial places. 750 00:34:25,555 --> 00:34:28,915 So I do think that there's a grand bargain 751 00:34:28,975 --> 00:34:30,875 that's just waiting to be had there. 752 00:34:31,615 --> 00:34:34,355 Um, but I'm an, I'm an angler 753 00:34:34,775 --> 00:34:37,795 and anglers are by definition optimists. So 754 00:34:38,115 --> 00:34:39,115 - . 755 00:34:39,115 --> 00:34:39,795 Alright, so, alright, 756 00:34:39,815 --> 00:34:42,995 so help me understand the optimistic path forward here. 757 00:34:42,995 --> 00:34:44,635 And I'll apologize on the front end for the length 758 00:34:44,635 --> 00:34:45,715 of this setup, 759 00:34:45,895 --> 00:34:48,075 but, uh, I wanna make sure that folks who are listening 760 00:34:48,645 --> 00:34:51,075 understand the political landscape right now. 761 00:34:51,305 --> 00:34:55,595 Because the other bit that's in play here is what's known 762 00:34:55,615 --> 00:34:57,155 as the Rosemont decision, 763 00:34:57,205 --> 00:35:00,635 which is a big court ruling affecting mining, 764 00:35:00,935 --> 00:35:03,395 new mines everywhere that says, uh, 765 00:35:03,535 --> 00:35:06,635 mining companies cannot just dump their tailings 766 00:35:07,175 --> 00:35:10,795 on a mining claim if there are not also valuable minerals 767 00:35:10,795 --> 00:35:14,075 there that has upended the mining industry, 768 00:35:14,175 --> 00:35:15,795 but is in fact a strict reading of 769 00:35:15,795 --> 00:35:17,675 what 1872 Mining law says. 770 00:35:18,575 --> 00:35:23,155 So on the one hand right now, you have a legislation 771 00:35:23,155 --> 00:35:26,115 that would essentially reverse the Rosemont decision. 772 00:35:26,225 --> 00:35:27,995 Take us right back where we were 773 00:35:27,995 --> 00:35:30,715 before, that's being backed by Senators Rich 774 00:35:30,895 --> 00:35:32,195 and Cortez Masto. 775 00:35:32,195 --> 00:35:36,275 So bipartisan legislation there to undo Rosemont 776 00:35:36,375 --> 00:35:38,125 and restore the status quo. 777 00:35:39,185 --> 00:35:43,645 You have legislation to reform 1872, put a, 778 00:35:44,265 --> 00:35:47,525 uh, permitting process in place, put a royalty in place, 779 00:35:47,585 --> 00:35:50,485 and that's being backed by, uh, Senator Heinrich 780 00:35:50,545 --> 00:35:52,965 and Chairman Alva in the house. 781 00:35:54,145 --> 00:35:56,845 It doesn't seem to me looking at that, 782 00:35:56,955 --> 00:35:59,245 that there's a whole lot of middle ground there, 783 00:35:59,505 --> 00:36:02,245 but you seem to be more optimistic than I am that somehow 784 00:36:03,305 --> 00:36:05,045 all of that could come together 785 00:36:05,185 --> 00:36:08,165 and result in a bill that gets passed. 786 00:36:08,665 --> 00:36:10,765 Uh, and then I I will just note it happens 787 00:36:10,785 --> 00:36:11,845 to be an election year. 788 00:36:11,875 --> 00:36:14,165 There's not a whole lot of time left in Congress. 789 00:36:14,705 --> 00:36:18,325 Uh, so walk me through the optimistic path forward here 790 00:36:19,145 --> 00:36:20,565 - And, and then a miracle happens 791 00:36:20,825 --> 00:36:21,825 - And then a miracle happens. 792 00:36:21,875 --> 00:36:22,875 Yeah, . 793 00:36:23,705 --> 00:36:27,565 - So, uh, not only does the, you know, and, 794 00:36:27,585 --> 00:36:29,445 and I consider Senator r 795 00:36:29,445 --> 00:36:32,045 and, uh, Senator Cortez masto to be friends, 796 00:36:32,385 --> 00:36:35,885 but not only does their bill undo Rosemont 797 00:36:36,065 --> 00:36:39,125 and es reestablish the status quo pre Rosemont. 798 00:36:39,125 --> 00:36:40,605 - Yeah, it's, it's worse in many ways. Yeah, 799 00:36:40,885 --> 00:36:42,085 - , it's actually worse. 800 00:36:42,105 --> 00:36:45,005 And I testified on this not long ago, it, 801 00:36:45,105 --> 00:36:49,005 it could potentially allow for mining in 802 00:36:49,005 --> 00:36:53,075 otherwise, uh, withdrawn ar with areas 803 00:36:53,075 --> 00:36:54,795 that have been withdrawn from mining. 804 00:36:55,335 --> 00:36:57,795 So when I testified, uh, 805 00:36:57,815 --> 00:37:01,955 before, uh, Senator Cortez Masto, um, 806 00:37:02,275 --> 00:37:05,715 I was alongside a gentleman from the mining community 807 00:37:06,135 --> 00:37:07,155 who also testified, 808 00:37:07,495 --> 00:37:12,215 and obviously we were opposed to her fix 809 00:37:13,035 --> 00:37:14,495 and he was supportive of it. 810 00:37:14,555 --> 00:37:16,055 And she came over after the hearing 811 00:37:16,115 --> 00:37:17,615 and said, would you two work together 812 00:37:18,615 --> 00:37:20,595 and come up with a solution here? 813 00:37:20,655 --> 00:37:23,075 And, and we did that in good faith, 814 00:37:23,575 --> 00:37:25,875 and I think we've actually come up with a solution 815 00:37:26,185 --> 00:37:29,265 that would fix Rosemont for the industry. 816 00:37:30,005 --> 00:37:31,825 But my point here is 817 00:37:33,745 --> 00:37:35,545 that's a give, right? 818 00:37:35,545 --> 00:37:38,585 That's a give to allow this clean energy economy 819 00:37:38,685 --> 00:37:39,785 to move forward, et cetera. 820 00:37:40,045 --> 00:37:42,385 It would be, i, if I were in the industry, 821 00:37:42,445 --> 00:37:44,265 and I'm obviously not, I mean, I, I work 822 00:37:44,265 --> 00:37:45,265 for a conservation group, 823 00:37:45,685 --> 00:37:48,505 but if I were in the industry, I would be saying, you know, 824 00:37:50,355 --> 00:37:52,185 let's, let's look at the royalty question. 825 00:37:52,275 --> 00:37:55,025 Let's argue about what the right royalty should be. 826 00:37:55,995 --> 00:37:57,785 We're making money hand over fist. 827 00:37:58,775 --> 00:38:01,445 Let's look at whether there is some place 828 00:38:01,455 --> 00:38:03,285 where we can allow in the process, 829 00:38:03,695 --> 00:38:05,405 where we can allow discretion. 830 00:38:05,825 --> 00:38:09,125 It could be that Congress passes a law that says 831 00:38:10,325 --> 00:38:13,265 the Secretary of Interior, upon passage of this bill 832 00:38:13,805 --> 00:38:16,705 may use the following three criteria to withdraw 833 00:38:17,355 --> 00:38:19,585 lands from mining for 10 years, 834 00:38:19,805 --> 00:38:21,545 and then it's revisited every 10 years. 835 00:38:21,835 --> 00:38:24,145 Right? We, there, there, there, there is a way 836 00:38:24,165 --> 00:38:25,305 to thread this needle. 837 00:38:26,045 --> 00:38:30,155 Um, and I, I think we're in 838 00:38:30,155 --> 00:38:31,235 that moment right now. 839 00:38:31,735 --> 00:38:35,480 Now there's a great distance between Senator Heinrich's 840 00:38:35,995 --> 00:38:37,375 Mining reform bill 841 00:38:38,155 --> 00:38:40,935 and you know, where the industry is today. 842 00:38:41,315 --> 00:38:43,815 But I think with the combination of Rosemont 843 00:38:44,115 --> 00:38:45,175 and Good Samaritan 844 00:38:45,875 --> 00:38:49,745 and, uh, the, the potential 845 00:38:50,325 --> 00:38:52,315 to fix the discretion issue 846 00:38:52,375 --> 00:38:55,735 and to fix the royalty issue, I think we're in a moment 847 00:38:55,735 --> 00:38:57,655 that we haven't been in in a long time. 848 00:38:58,035 --> 00:39:01,375 And, you know, I hope it's something that comes together. 849 00:39:01,755 --> 00:39:03,215 It will have to come together quickly 850 00:39:03,215 --> 00:39:05,295 because I think people like, uh, 851 00:39:05,525 --> 00:39:09,015 Senator Joe Manchin will be important to making this happen. 852 00:39:09,835 --> 00:39:13,815 And, um, and this could happen under the broader umbrella 853 00:39:13,875 --> 00:39:14,975 of permitting reform. 854 00:39:15,195 --> 00:39:19,775 And Senator Manchin is retiring, uh, at, at the end of, uh, 855 00:39:19,805 --> 00:39:23,015 this term and, or, or at least he's not running again. 856 00:39:23,135 --> 00:39:26,335 I shouldn't say he's retiring, but, um, you know, 857 00:39:26,415 --> 00:39:28,695 I think the moment is now, if we're gonna do this, 858 00:39:29,245 --> 00:39:30,495 come up with this grand bar. 859 00:39:30,495 --> 00:39:33,375 I don't think where I've testified about mining reform, 860 00:39:33,855 --> 00:39:36,655 probably in my 20 years as a conservation 861 00:39:36,715 --> 00:39:39,255 or as a nonprofit conservationist, 862 00:39:40,055 --> 00:39:42,745 I've probably testified on mining reform seven times 863 00:39:43,685 --> 00:39:48,435 and we're never gonna get the bill that, you know, 864 00:39:48,815 --> 00:39:51,035 the conservation community would want. 865 00:39:52,145 --> 00:39:54,845 But I think we can get a compromise, you know, where we, 866 00:39:54,905 --> 00:39:57,405 we give on Rosemont, they give on royalty. 867 00:39:58,025 --> 00:40:01,005 You know, we settle in the middle on Good Sam, you know, 868 00:40:01,305 --> 00:40:05,525 we find some logical way to create some level of discretion 869 00:40:05,655 --> 00:40:08,445 where agency managers early in the process 870 00:40:09,855 --> 00:40:12,795 to help the industry early in the process say, no, 871 00:40:12,985 --> 00:40:14,955 this is not an appropriate place to mind. 872 00:40:15,395 --> 00:40:19,155 I mean, I, I just, again, I believe in my heart 873 00:40:19,155 --> 00:40:21,195 of hearts there's an absolute compromise 874 00:40:21,195 --> 00:40:23,675 that's right here in front of us that will allow us 875 00:40:23,675 --> 00:40:26,315 to reduce our reliance on countries like China 876 00:40:27,095 --> 00:40:31,355 who are gonna, they're gonna use the fact that we need 60% 877 00:40:32,015 --> 00:40:34,475 of, of our critical minerals from their country. 878 00:40:34,475 --> 00:40:36,155 They're gonna use that to control us. 879 00:40:36,265 --> 00:40:38,555 They're gonna limit supply chains to us. 880 00:40:38,975 --> 00:40:41,995 You know, it's not like things are easing with tech China. 881 00:40:41,995 --> 00:40:43,315 They're becoming more and more tense. 882 00:40:44,055 --> 00:40:47,995 And so in order for America to control its own destiny, 883 00:40:48,145 --> 00:40:51,295 destiny and to deal with these, um, 884 00:40:52,625 --> 00:40:54,495 these issues of climate change 885 00:40:55,235 --> 00:40:59,015 and in the transition to a clean energy future, I don't see 886 00:40:59,015 --> 00:41:03,685 how we do it without conducting domestic mining in America. 887 00:41:04,265 --> 00:41:06,285 So let's, let's as conservationists, 888 00:41:06,335 --> 00:41:07,925 let's try to get something for that. 889 00:41:08,585 --> 00:41:10,165 - All right. So just to mix fish 890 00:41:10,165 --> 00:41:12,645 and foul here, you're saying the trout folks are telling 891 00:41:12,665 --> 00:41:13,765 me to watch lame duck 892 00:41:14,405 --> 00:41:15,405 - . 893 00:41:16,705 --> 00:41:18,205 That's pretty good, . 894 00:41:18,795 --> 00:41:21,765 - Alright, so what keep your eye 895 00:41:21,765 --> 00:41:23,525 after on what happens after the election? 896 00:41:23,525 --> 00:41:24,565 That's the, the short of answer. 897 00:41:24,765 --> 00:41:26,805 - Yeah, maybe. So - all right. 898 00:41:29,005 --> 00:41:30,405 - I don't have, look, this is, 899 00:41:30,525 --> 00:41:32,765 I I feel like I'm a voice in the wilderness on this one. 900 00:41:32,885 --> 00:41:34,765 I, I, it's not like I've got this cabal 901 00:41:34,765 --> 00:41:36,125 of senators who are like, yeah, 902 00:41:36,685 --> 00:41:38,165 - , - But we're working on it. 903 00:41:38,165 --> 00:41:40,205 - But, but you're - Optimistic. We're working on it. Yes. 904 00:41:41,105 --> 00:41:42,605 - All right. One final question 905 00:41:42,605 --> 00:41:43,765 for you before we let you go. 906 00:41:44,225 --> 00:41:47,845 Um, why, you mentioned earlier that as an angler, 907 00:41:47,845 --> 00:41:49,205 you're an optimist, and I'm curious, 908 00:41:49,265 --> 00:41:51,445 why do you think anglers make such good 909 00:41:51,445 --> 00:41:52,685 conservation advocates? 910 00:41:53,065 --> 00:41:55,125 Why are you able to sort of, you know, 911 00:41:55,125 --> 00:41:57,965 walk into worlds almost as you do at Trout Unlimited? 912 00:41:58,265 --> 00:42:00,205 - Oh, such a good question. So it's interesting. 913 00:42:00,205 --> 00:42:02,085 I'll, I'll just, I'll take a, the long road 914 00:42:02,185 --> 00:42:03,285 to get to your answer. 915 00:42:03,625 --> 00:42:07,655 Um, when I was at the US Forest Service doing this, 916 00:42:07,725 --> 00:42:11,295 so-called Roadless Rule, uh, one of my jobs was 917 00:42:11,315 --> 00:42:13,375 to take all the meetings that the chief 918 00:42:13,475 --> 00:42:16,095 of the Forest Service, they call their, the head, head 919 00:42:16,095 --> 00:42:19,935 of the agency, the chief, um, in fact, my brothers, uh, 920 00:42:20,005 --> 00:42:24,375 made a card up for me that said Chris Wood shaman on it, um, 921 00:42:24,375 --> 00:42:26,335 because they thought, they thought the chief title was 922 00:42:26,335 --> 00:42:27,335 so funny, . 923 00:42:27,395 --> 00:42:31,175 But, um, one of my jobs was 924 00:42:31,175 --> 00:42:33,735 to take all the meetings that the chief didn't wanna take. 925 00:42:34,475 --> 00:42:36,055 Uh, and we heard from everybody, 926 00:42:36,315 --> 00:42:39,215 all the regulated community, the miners, the oil 927 00:42:39,215 --> 00:42:41,695 and gas community, the timber interests, all of them. 928 00:42:42,195 --> 00:42:44,615 And then we heard from the environmental community all the, 929 00:42:44,755 --> 00:42:46,775 you know, landscape of environmental groups 930 00:42:46,775 --> 00:42:50,115 that you'd imagine we didn't have a single me. 931 00:42:50,115 --> 00:42:51,155 And, and, and by the way, 932 00:42:51,385 --> 00:42:54,515 when I say he had me take all the meetings he didn't wanna 933 00:42:54,515 --> 00:42:56,595 take, that was all the meetings, . 934 00:42:56,775 --> 00:42:59,195 - Um, - And, um, 935 00:42:59,775 --> 00:43:03,355 the single interest we didn't get a meeting request from was 936 00:43:03,705 --> 00:43:06,445 the hunting and angling community, not one. 937 00:43:07,065 --> 00:43:10,285 And they stood to gain the most from the roadless rule 938 00:43:10,475 --> 00:43:11,805 because fish 939 00:43:11,805 --> 00:43:14,805 and wildlife benefit the most from protecting those 940 00:43:15,135 --> 00:43:18,205 60 million acres of high quality wilderness quality, really, 941 00:43:18,745 --> 00:43:20,445 um, backcountry areas. 942 00:43:21,335 --> 00:43:24,675 And so when I left the agency, I, I said, 943 00:43:24,935 --> 00:43:27,315 and I know, obviously I know a lot, I'm a hunter 944 00:43:27,335 --> 00:43:31,155 and an angler myself, and I know how passionate we all are 945 00:43:31,885 --> 00:43:33,795 about these landscapes and, 946 00:43:33,855 --> 00:43:35,595 and protecting them because we're in them. 947 00:43:35,925 --> 00:43:37,395 We're, we're literally in them. 948 00:43:37,415 --> 00:43:39,795 We have a, I honestly think that sportsmen 949 00:43:39,795 --> 00:43:43,235 and women have this visceral connection to the land. 950 00:43:43,305 --> 00:43:47,355 It's not, it's not abstract, it's based on our experiences 951 00:43:47,585 --> 00:43:50,925 with our family and friends and alone in the woods 952 00:43:51,225 --> 00:43:52,725 or on the river. 953 00:43:53,425 --> 00:43:57,725 And, um, I wanted to find a conservation group 954 00:43:57,725 --> 00:44:00,045 where I could create an analog 955 00:44:00,545 --> 00:44:02,125 to the environmental community, 956 00:44:03,005 --> 00:44:05,245 but made up of hunters and anglers. 957 00:44:05,785 --> 00:44:09,415 And, and that's why I ended up coming to Trout Unlimited. 958 00:44:09,635 --> 00:44:13,495 Um, at the time we were, uh, we, 959 00:44:13,595 --> 00:44:16,335 we had about 30 staff, 25 960 00:44:16,335 --> 00:44:17,775 of whom were in the headquarters office. 961 00:44:17,825 --> 00:44:21,935 Today we have 370 staff, uh, 962 00:44:22,545 --> 00:44:24,335 about 30 are in the headquarters office. 963 00:44:24,875 --> 00:44:26,935 We put our people where the resources are. 964 00:44:26,935 --> 00:44:30,295 And, um, I think to answer your question directly, Kate, 965 00:44:31,085 --> 00:44:35,325 I think the reason that anglers are such effective advocates 966 00:44:35,385 --> 00:44:38,965 is because we're out there on the water every day, 967 00:44:39,505 --> 00:44:43,485 and we completely understand how 968 00:44:44,125 --> 00:44:45,925 polluted rivers impact fishing. 969 00:44:46,065 --> 00:44:50,005 And we understand how when you have a healthy stream side 970 00:44:50,005 --> 00:44:52,845 area where you've got shading of the stream 971 00:44:52,905 --> 00:44:55,605 and you've got large trees that are falling into the stream, 972 00:44:55,905 --> 00:44:58,605 that's where the biggest fish typically hold behind. 973 00:44:59,365 --> 00:45:03,835 Um, so it's been, it's been really heartening and, 974 00:45:03,835 --> 00:45:05,235 and I think hunters 975 00:45:05,235 --> 00:45:06,675 and anglers are, um, 976 00:45:07,555 --> 00:45:12,315 a more conservative lot than perhaps most people that, um, 977 00:45:13,925 --> 00:45:16,265 uh, belong to environmental groups. 978 00:45:16,965 --> 00:45:19,105 And while it's vital that we work together, 979 00:45:20,315 --> 00:45:23,115 I think we can have conversations, um, 980 00:45:23,905 --> 00:45:25,675 with people like Senator Rich 981 00:45:26,415 --> 00:45:28,675 and Senator Manchin, that, um, 982 00:45:29,105 --> 00:45:31,435 whether you're just coming in from a, 983 00:45:31,435 --> 00:45:34,035 we have the shared perspective of hunting and fishing 984 00:45:34,175 --> 00:45:35,715 and a shared value system, 985 00:45:35,735 --> 00:45:37,835 and it just makes it easier to talk about some of those, 986 00:45:38,255 --> 00:45:39,475 you know, those yellow light 987 00:45:39,615 --> 00:45:41,595 and maybe even some of the red light issues. 988 00:45:41,695 --> 00:45:45,035 Now, I, I haven't quite convinced Senator Rish of the wisdom 989 00:45:45,455 --> 00:45:48,115 of taking out the four lower Snake River dams, 990 00:45:48,175 --> 00:45:49,955 but I'm not giving up on them. 991 00:45:51,795 --> 00:45:53,035 - I think that's where we're gonna leave it. 992 00:45:53,045 --> 00:45:55,675 Chris Wood, CEO of Trout Unlimited. 993 00:45:55,675 --> 00:45:57,835 Thank you so much for all of your perspective today, 994 00:45:57,835 --> 00:46:00,835 and we will keep our eye on that legislation 995 00:46:00,835 --> 00:46:04,115 and the hope for maybe finally overhauling 996 00:46:04,115 --> 00:46:05,555 that 1872 Mining law, 997 00:46:05,985 --> 00:46:07,675 - Kate Herron, it was a pleasure to be 998 00:46:07,675 --> 00:46:08,795 with you. Thanks for having me. 999 00:46:08,885 --> 00:46:11,075 - We've got some more great news to end this episode. 1000 00:46:11,575 --> 00:46:13,435 In addition to the Thompson Divide Protections, 1001 00:46:13,695 --> 00:46:16,275 the Biden administration has published a final rule 1002 00:46:16,295 --> 00:46:18,315 to curb methane waste on public land. 1003 00:46:18,735 --> 00:46:21,435 The Bureau of Land Management's methane waste rule requires 1004 00:46:21,495 --> 00:46:23,755 oil and gas companies to reduce venting 1005 00:46:23,755 --> 00:46:25,875 and flaring of methane fix leaks, 1006 00:46:25,935 --> 00:46:28,635 and reimburse taxpayers when companies waste methane, 1007 00:46:28,775 --> 00:46:31,275 rather than capturing it and sending it to American homes. 1008 00:46:31,825 --> 00:46:33,995 Methane is the main component of natural gas 1009 00:46:34,135 --> 00:46:36,035 and a major climate warming pollutant. 1010 00:46:36,135 --> 00:46:38,515 So this is a big deal. People have been working 1011 00:46:38,515 --> 00:46:41,315 to curb methane waste on public lands since the Obama 1012 00:46:41,315 --> 00:46:43,555 administration, and we're incredibly grateful 1013 00:46:43,555 --> 00:46:45,515 to the Biden administration for getting it done. 1014 00:46:46,005 --> 00:46:47,355 Watch out this month for a number 1015 00:46:47,355 --> 00:46:48,755 of other federal rule makings 1016 00:46:48,775 --> 00:46:51,035 or regulations that will affect public lands. 1017 00:46:51,215 --> 00:46:53,675 And stay tuned for an episode on that in the next few weeks. 1018 00:47:03,185 --> 00:47:04,955 - Well, that is it for today, folks. 1019 00:47:05,305 --> 00:47:07,675 Like Kate just said, we are anticipating a busy 1020 00:47:07,805 --> 00:47:09,155 month of rule makings. 1021 00:47:09,345 --> 00:47:10,675 Kate, also, you just talked to a bunch 1022 00:47:10,675 --> 00:47:12,075 of reporters at the Society 1023 00:47:12,075 --> 00:47:14,355 of Environmental Journalism Conference about this. 1024 00:47:14,695 --> 00:47:17,395 Uh, they have a pretty good sense now of what's going on. 1025 00:47:18,185 --> 00:47:19,715 - Well, that was certainly the goal. 1026 00:47:20,135 --> 00:47:22,075 Um, they asked really smart questions 1027 00:47:22,135 --> 00:47:24,995 and we gave them some resources including a one pager 1028 00:47:25,055 --> 00:47:27,475 and with a lot of the rules we're expecting as well 1029 00:47:27,475 --> 00:47:29,075 as a rundown of the rulemaking process. 1030 00:47:29,745 --> 00:47:32,445 If anybody is interested in seeing that, um, you're welcome 1031 00:47:32,445 --> 00:47:35,645 to email us podcast@westernpriorities.org. 1032 00:47:36,065 --> 00:47:38,365 And like I said, um, we're planning to run 1033 00:47:38,365 --> 00:47:40,685 through those rules on an episode here of the landscape. 1034 00:47:40,785 --> 00:47:41,805 So stay tuned for that. 1035 00:47:42,315 --> 00:47:43,405 - Well, thanks again to Chris 1036 00:47:43,505 --> 00:47:44,685 for taking the time to chat with us. 1037 00:47:45,225 --> 00:47:47,405 And thank you for listening to the landscape.