1 00:00:00,395 --> 00:00:00,435 - 2 00:00:07,025 --> 00:00:09,755 - Welcome to the Landscape, your show about America's parks 3 00:00:09,755 --> 00:00:10,795 and public lands. 4 00:00:10,855 --> 00:00:11,995 I'm Erin Weiss with the Center 5 00:00:12,015 --> 00:00:13,915 for Western Priorities in Denver. 6 00:00:14,085 --> 00:00:16,635 We've made it through second false spring. 7 00:00:16,845 --> 00:00:18,435 Maybe this is the real one now. 8 00:00:19,175 --> 00:00:21,195 Uh, we can hope as we head into April. 9 00:00:21,735 --> 00:00:23,835 - And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City. 10 00:00:24,405 --> 00:00:25,795 Today on the podcast, we're talking 11 00:00:25,795 --> 00:00:27,435 to author Betsy Gaines Kwaman. 12 00:00:27,725 --> 00:00:30,555 Betsy has written two books about public lands in the West 13 00:00:30,735 --> 00:00:32,595 and is one of the foremost experts on 14 00:00:32,595 --> 00:00:33,795 public lands extremism. 15 00:00:34,245 --> 00:00:36,355 We're super excited to share that conversation with you. 16 00:00:36,535 --> 00:00:37,915 But first, some news. 17 00:00:39,375 --> 00:00:42,395 - The Bureau of Land Management released its final methane 18 00:00:42,395 --> 00:00:45,795 waste rule this week, bringing years of legal 19 00:00:45,895 --> 00:00:47,915 and administrative wrangling to a close. 20 00:00:48,175 --> 00:00:51,595 We hope. Methane, of course, is a powerful greenhouse gas. 21 00:00:51,625 --> 00:00:53,635 It's the main component of natural gas. 22 00:00:54,185 --> 00:00:57,915 It's often produced as a byproduct of oil production 23 00:00:57,915 --> 00:01:01,155 and fracking, since it is so much cheaper than oil 24 00:01:01,995 --> 00:01:05,075 companies sometimes waste it by either burning it off 25 00:01:05,175 --> 00:01:08,515 or releasing it straight into the air, rather than trying 26 00:01:08,515 --> 00:01:09,875 to capture and sell it. 27 00:01:10,305 --> 00:01:13,315 Well. This new BLM rule requires companies to 28 00:01:13,875 --> 00:01:17,675 reimburse taxpayers when they waste methane paying royalties 29 00:01:17,905 --> 00:01:19,915 when that methane is vented or flared. 30 00:01:20,255 --> 00:01:22,075 The new rule also requires companies 31 00:01:22,075 --> 00:01:24,115 that drill on federal land to take steps 32 00:01:24,335 --> 00:01:28,075 to reduce their meth methane waste by limiting their venting 33 00:01:28,075 --> 00:01:30,635 and flaring and fixing leaks on the front end. 34 00:01:31,215 --> 00:01:35,515 Now, this BLM rule really compliments a nationwide rule from 35 00:01:35,515 --> 00:01:37,355 the Environmental Protection Agency 36 00:01:37,355 --> 00:01:38,635 that was released in December, 37 00:01:39,265 --> 00:01:42,315 also aimed at reducing methane waste across the entire 38 00:01:42,575 --> 00:01:43,675 oil and gas sector. 39 00:01:44,455 --> 00:01:46,035 Now, just a quick flag. 40 00:01:46,415 --> 00:01:49,075 We are expecting a very busy month ahead 41 00:01:49,075 --> 00:01:50,275 for public land management. 42 00:01:50,915 --> 00:01:53,155 BLM needs to roll out a bunch of stuff 43 00:01:53,155 --> 00:01:55,915 that we've already talked about on this podcast, oil 44 00:01:55,915 --> 00:01:59,475 and gas rules, conservation, restoration leasing. 45 00:01:59,695 --> 00:02:02,155 Uh, they just finalized another rule today about 46 00:02:02,425 --> 00:02:03,795 broadband infrastructure. 47 00:02:04,495 --> 00:02:07,155 We are, of course, keeping track of all of this. 48 00:02:07,335 --> 00:02:10,595 We will wrap it up for you sometime within the next month, 49 00:02:10,795 --> 00:02:13,715 because honestly, there is so much happening right now. 50 00:02:13,745 --> 00:02:16,875 Even I have trouble, uh, keeping track of it. 51 00:02:17,825 --> 00:02:20,835 Also, a quick note that if you are heading to the Society 52 00:02:20,855 --> 00:02:24,235 of Environmental Journalists Conference in Philadelphia next 53 00:02:24,235 --> 00:02:25,635 week, track us down. 54 00:02:25,825 --> 00:02:28,555 Kate and I are both going to be there ready 55 00:02:28,555 --> 00:02:30,875 to talk about all of these upcoming rules. 56 00:02:31,055 --> 00:02:33,995 So we'd love to grab coffee and give you the rundown. 57 00:02:34,985 --> 00:02:37,115 - Also, we've got a new video out in our Road 58 00:02:37,115 --> 00:02:38,515 to 30 postcard series. 59 00:02:38,865 --> 00:02:41,635 This one is about the proposed Chuck Walla National Monument 60 00:02:41,695 --> 00:02:42,795 in Southern California. 61 00:02:43,415 --> 00:02:46,875 The proposal would protect approximately 600,000 acres just 62 00:02:46,925 --> 00:02:48,995 south of Joshua Tree National Park, 63 00:02:49,415 --> 00:02:51,555 and is named for the Chuck Walla Lizard, one 64 00:02:51,555 --> 00:02:52,915 of the species found in the region. 65 00:02:53,475 --> 00:02:56,315 Establishing the monument would help ensure more equitable 66 00:02:56,335 --> 00:02:58,595 access to nature for local communities 67 00:02:58,615 --> 00:03:01,205 and safeguard biodiversity, wildlife habitat 68 00:03:01,225 --> 00:03:02,885 and wildlife migration corridors. 69 00:03:03,505 --> 00:03:06,005 We spoke to three community leaders about the proposed 70 00:03:06,285 --> 00:03:08,205 monument in the video, which you can find 71 00:03:08,205 --> 00:03:09,245 linked in the show notes. 72 00:03:12,385 --> 00:03:14,805 Our guest today is author Betsy Gaines Kwaman. 73 00:03:15,335 --> 00:03:17,085 Betsy has written two books about public 74 00:03:17,135 --> 00:03:18,685 lands extremism in the West. 75 00:03:19,065 --> 00:03:21,805 Her first American Zion looks at the connection 76 00:03:21,805 --> 00:03:23,485 between Mormonism and Extremism. 77 00:03:23,905 --> 00:03:25,925 Her second book, which came out last year, 78 00:03:26,355 --> 00:03:28,405 digs into the myths that define the West. 79 00:03:28,935 --> 00:03:30,725 Betsy, thanks so much for being with us today. 80 00:03:31,405 --> 00:03:32,925 - I am so glad to be here, Kate 81 00:03:32,925 --> 00:03:35,325 and Erin, it's just a, a delight, 82 00:03:35,465 --> 00:03:36,965 so thank you for having me. 83 00:03:37,235 --> 00:03:39,885 - Awesome. Well, we are very excited to have you here. 84 00:03:39,885 --> 00:03:42,245 Your name comes up a lot in our meetings, 85 00:03:42,385 --> 00:03:44,725 and we were like, finally, we said, wow, 86 00:03:44,725 --> 00:03:47,245 we should really just call her up . 87 00:03:47,745 --> 00:03:50,845 Um, so tell me how you first became interested in this topic 88 00:03:50,845 --> 00:03:53,325 of public land extremism. Well, 89 00:03:53,325 --> 00:03:54,365 - It's kind of weird. 90 00:03:54,705 --> 00:03:56,765 So I started out in conservation. 91 00:03:56,905 --> 00:04:00,685 My master's degree is in conservation policy from Montana 92 00:04:00,685 --> 00:04:02,685 State University, actually, environmental studies. 93 00:04:03,305 --> 00:04:08,165 Um, but I learned all the great acronyms back there, nepa, 94 00:04:08,345 --> 00:04:10,245 flipma, um, all the things, 95 00:04:10,625 --> 00:04:14,085 and became really, really interested in public lands 96 00:04:14,085 --> 00:04:16,565 and public land law and the way 97 00:04:16,565 --> 00:04:18,445 that public lands were being managed. 98 00:04:18,865 --> 00:04:23,445 My heart is in conservation, uh, wildlife, you know, 99 00:04:23,445 --> 00:04:25,325 public lands as, as we've mentioned. 100 00:04:25,865 --> 00:04:29,805 And, um, and I really felt like, uh, we were 101 00:04:30,105 --> 00:04:32,965 as conservationists, uh, preaching to the converted 102 00:04:33,305 --> 00:04:35,725 and we weren't building broader coalitions. 103 00:04:35,725 --> 00:04:37,805 And I thought that that was really important to think about. 104 00:04:37,865 --> 00:04:40,965 So I became very interested in how 105 00:04:41,475 --> 00:04:44,005 various cultures see landscape 106 00:04:44,385 --> 00:04:47,685 and in particular religious ways of seeing landscapes. 107 00:04:47,685 --> 00:04:51,445 So I began working in Mongolia with, um, 108 00:04:52,205 --> 00:04:54,525 Mongolian monks who were interested in protecting 109 00:04:54,545 --> 00:04:55,925 rivers and fisheries. 110 00:04:56,485 --> 00:04:58,045 I worked with, uh, mon, 111 00:04:58,105 --> 00:05:00,765 or excuse me, Bhutanese monks, um, on 112 00:05:01,595 --> 00:05:02,845 snow leopard conservation. 113 00:05:03,135 --> 00:05:06,485 Again, looking at how they viewed landscape 114 00:05:06,485 --> 00:05:10,085 and wildlife as sin sentient beings as sacred. 115 00:05:10,745 --> 00:05:15,645 Uh, and that was a very easy group of folks 116 00:05:16,265 --> 00:05:17,285 to, to work with. 117 00:05:17,385 --> 00:05:18,885 And, and it was, it was fun. 118 00:05:18,955 --> 00:05:22,685 They, they had a great interest in conservation biology 119 00:05:23,185 --> 00:05:28,005 and in, um, you know, really seeing landscape as, as a very, 120 00:05:28,035 --> 00:05:30,085 very important and, and rivers 121 00:05:30,085 --> 00:05:32,125 and wildlife as important things to, 122 00:05:32,265 --> 00:05:33,765 to protect and take care of. 123 00:05:35,005 --> 00:05:39,205 I came back and decided that I wanted to do a dissertation. 124 00:05:39,225 --> 00:05:41,205 And, uh, initially I thought about, well, I'll, 125 00:05:41,205 --> 00:05:43,605 I'll do something in Mongolia or Bhutan, 126 00:05:43,625 --> 00:05:45,645 but I couldn't read primary texts. 127 00:05:45,645 --> 00:05:49,365 It would've taken me 10 years to get up to speed on that. 128 00:05:49,825 --> 00:05:52,325 So I thought, well, what can I do in my own backyard 129 00:05:52,675 --> 00:05:56,165 that it sort of takes on religious ways of seeing landscape? 130 00:05:56,225 --> 00:05:57,685 And lo 131 00:05:57,685 --> 00:06:02,325 and behold, I decided to look at Latter Day Saints theology 132 00:06:02,745 --> 00:06:05,445 and began to look at early Mormon settlement. 133 00:06:05,705 --> 00:06:08,245 Um, and they had a very different way 134 00:06:08,245 --> 00:06:09,405 of looking at landscape. 135 00:06:10,735 --> 00:06:13,245 There were, there were sort of shades 136 00:06:13,385 --> 00:06:17,125 of Joseph Smith talking about the importance of utilization 137 00:06:17,345 --> 00:06:20,965 and building the city of Zion to please the eye of God. 138 00:06:21,185 --> 00:06:22,245 So it was the idea 139 00:06:22,245 --> 00:06:25,245 of building landscape rather than keeping it, uh, 140 00:06:25,625 --> 00:06:27,205 intact as is. 141 00:06:28,265 --> 00:06:31,525 But also Brigham Young had, uh, real sort of environmental, 142 00:06:31,745 --> 00:06:33,925 um, foresight and, 143 00:06:34,105 --> 00:06:36,525 and talked about keeping places protected. 144 00:06:36,585 --> 00:06:40,525 So it, the, the Mormon culture 145 00:06:41,065 --> 00:06:42,925 has different ways of seeing landscape, 146 00:06:43,105 --> 00:06:47,165 but when I started to look about, uh, look at public lands 147 00:06:47,165 --> 00:06:48,405 and the Sagebrush Rebellion 148 00:06:48,505 --> 00:06:50,445 and the Bundy family in particular, 149 00:06:50,795 --> 00:06:55,125 they really were embracing these early church ways of seeing 150 00:06:56,035 --> 00:07:00,285 land as a place that needed to be built, utilized, uh, and, 151 00:07:00,545 --> 00:07:03,925 and, um, and altered in order to, 152 00:07:04,265 --> 00:07:06,205 to become sacred. 153 00:07:07,745 --> 00:07:10,605 - And, and that brings us to your first, first book, 154 00:07:10,605 --> 00:07:11,925 which was American Zion. 155 00:07:11,945 --> 00:07:14,565 It focuses on the Bundy family. 156 00:07:15,225 --> 00:07:19,005 Uh, a lot of folks are obviously familiar with 157 00:07:19,665 --> 00:07:21,685 the first and second Bundy, 158 00:07:21,685 --> 00:07:25,125 standoffs Bunkerville in Nevada at Clive Ands Ranch was, uh, 159 00:07:25,395 --> 00:07:26,485 well, 10 years ago. 160 00:07:27,065 --> 00:07:31,635 Uh, what a lot of folks don't realize is there is that 161 00:07:32,345 --> 00:07:34,235 theological connection. 162 00:07:34,575 --> 00:07:37,795 Uh, what was that like visiting the, 163 00:07:37,855 --> 00:07:40,795 the Bundys at their ranch and exploring that with them? 164 00:07:42,015 --> 00:07:45,995 - So, American Zion is a version of my dissertation, 165 00:07:45,995 --> 00:07:49,035 which I very much hope isn't as boring 166 00:07:49,215 --> 00:07:51,515 as my actual dissertation was . 167 00:07:52,675 --> 00:07:54,755 I wouldn't wish reading that on anyone. 168 00:07:55,375 --> 00:07:59,635 Um, but, uh, yeah, I went and visited the Bundys a year 169 00:07:59,805 --> 00:08:02,635 after what is known as the Battle of Bunkerville. 170 00:08:02,635 --> 00:08:06,675 And so at 10 year anniversary, uh, of this standoff, 171 00:08:07,465 --> 00:08:10,635 when Cliven pulled in, uh, 172 00:08:10,665 --> 00:08:13,995 militia groups from all over the country to, um, 173 00:08:14,595 --> 00:08:16,915 standoff against law enforcement 174 00:08:17,055 --> 00:08:21,475 and BLM, uh, who were working to confiscate his cows 175 00:08:21,475 --> 00:08:22,595 that were in trespass, 176 00:08:22,735 --> 00:08:25,075 he hadn't paid grazing fees in 20 years. 177 00:08:25,305 --> 00:08:27,595 He'd had a number of fines stack up. 178 00:08:27,655 --> 00:08:29,115 He owed over a million dollars. 179 00:08:29,575 --> 00:08:33,555 And so the government after this had been in the courts 180 00:08:33,575 --> 00:08:35,115 for years and years and years and years. 181 00:08:35,115 --> 00:08:39,155 Finally, um, a judge issued a confiscation order, and, uh, 182 00:08:39,255 --> 00:08:43,795 and as a result, this became a big galvanizing event 183 00:08:44,375 --> 00:08:47,235 in, um, you know, sort of modern militia culture. 184 00:08:48,355 --> 00:08:53,075 I went to talk to, uh, Clive and a year before Ryan 185 00:08:53,375 --> 00:08:54,955 and Amman went 186 00:08:55,145 --> 00:08:58,085 and did the takeover of the Malhere Wildlife Refuge. 187 00:08:58,265 --> 00:09:00,365 So this was in 2015. 188 00:09:01,225 --> 00:09:02,805 And, uh, and I went to talk 189 00:09:02,805 --> 00:09:06,365 to him specifically about his religious points of view 190 00:09:06,545 --> 00:09:09,725 and why he believes that his 191 00:09:11,005 --> 00:09:13,125 religious war, which this is something, 192 00:09:13,325 --> 00:09:16,925 this is his language, uh, is very much justified 193 00:09:17,265 --> 00:09:19,605 by early church doctrine. 194 00:09:19,785 --> 00:09:24,005 He, he talks about the Constitution as a sacred document. 195 00:09:24,105 --> 00:09:25,765 He says it's divinely inspired, 196 00:09:25,825 --> 00:09:27,445 and this is, I'm quoting him here, 197 00:09:27,535 --> 00:09:31,005 which basically means j Jesus wrote the Constitution. 198 00:09:31,985 --> 00:09:36,165 He, uh, talks about this importance of, um, and, 199 00:09:36,185 --> 00:09:39,725 and this is kind of apocryphal, this, this idea of the, 200 00:09:39,905 --> 00:09:41,645 the White Horse prophecy. 201 00:09:41,985 --> 00:09:45,125 Uh, it's not really, um, certain 202 00:09:45,155 --> 00:09:46,565 that Joseph Smith said this, 203 00:09:46,565 --> 00:09:48,165 but essentially there was this idea 204 00:09:48,165 --> 00:09:52,085 that when the Constitution is hanging by a thread, uh, 205 00:09:52,265 --> 00:09:54,605 Mormon heroes will come to its rescue, 206 00:09:55,265 --> 00:09:57,445 and that's something that motivates him. 207 00:09:57,865 --> 00:10:01,045 And the other thing that I think is really interesting is 208 00:10:01,045 --> 00:10:04,845 that when Clive and talked about, uh, his, um, 209 00:10:05,865 --> 00:10:07,525 you know, entitlement to the land, 210 00:10:08,455 --> 00:10:12,075 he talked about a hypothetical ancestor, 211 00:10:12,455 --> 00:10:14,755 and he talked about that ancestor coming 212 00:10:15,215 --> 00:10:17,715 and the horse drinks in the Virgin River 213 00:10:18,295 --> 00:10:21,595 and creates a quote unquote beneficial use. 214 00:10:21,975 --> 00:10:24,195 And again, that starts to tie into water law, 215 00:10:25,015 --> 00:10:29,715 but it also, to me, was very evident in this telling 216 00:10:29,815 --> 00:10:33,435 of the story that his history begins 217 00:10:33,625 --> 00:10:37,195 with the first Mormon settler the day before. 218 00:10:37,695 --> 00:10:39,395 It was a Southern Paiute river. 219 00:10:39,695 --> 00:10:41,835 So the, the history really begins 220 00:10:42,065 --> 00:10:46,515 with white settlement rather than understanding that this is 221 00:10:47,125 --> 00:10:51,755 indigenous land that, that he, um, he is living on. 222 00:10:52,855 --> 00:10:55,835 - So you sort of got into this next question I wanted 223 00:10:55,835 --> 00:10:58,035 to ask, which is to describe the connection 224 00:10:58,035 --> 00:11:00,555 between the LDS religion and Public Lands extremism 225 00:11:00,895 --> 00:11:02,115 and the Sagebrush Rebellion. 226 00:11:02,115 --> 00:11:03,355 They're all kind of tied up, 227 00:11:03,815 --> 00:11:07,635 but this is not all LDS folks, right? 228 00:11:07,635 --> 00:11:10,395 This is kind of an offshoot. Can you say more about that? 229 00:11:11,225 --> 00:11:14,235 - Sure. And, and, uh, I think it's really important, Kate, 230 00:11:14,335 --> 00:11:17,835 to make that, um, point in the sense that the, 231 00:11:17,895 --> 00:11:20,875 the church doesn't condone what the Bundys are doing, 232 00:11:21,275 --> 00:11:24,955 although they justify their actions based on their 233 00:11:24,955 --> 00:11:27,595 particular understanding of their faith. 234 00:11:28,295 --> 00:11:32,795 But no, it's not all LDSI do in American Zion 235 00:11:33,305 --> 00:11:37,115 make, it's my thesis that one 236 00:11:37,115 --> 00:11:41,835 of the reasons why there's such an ardent, uh, you know, 237 00:11:41,995 --> 00:11:45,635 sort of movement on the part of some LDS, 238 00:11:45,635 --> 00:11:48,315 particularly in rural places, southern Idaho 239 00:11:48,335 --> 00:11:52,115 and southern Nevada, is that there is this idea 240 00:11:52,145 --> 00:11:55,725 that Joseph Smith said Zion. 241 00:11:56,355 --> 00:11:58,885 Zion was, um, and that's promised land 242 00:11:58,885 --> 00:12:01,125 or sacred land, uh, is something 243 00:12:01,125 --> 00:12:03,125 that God was going to give the Mormons. 244 00:12:03,265 --> 00:12:06,765 And when he made this prophecy, they were in Missouri, 245 00:12:07,305 --> 00:12:10,965 and there was a lot of, um, militia, uh, 246 00:12:11,425 --> 00:12:14,245 action in Missouri on the part of the mobber, 247 00:12:14,295 --> 00:12:17,925 quote unquote the, the Missouri militia who were 248 00:12:18,685 --> 00:12:20,685 fighting the Mormons, because they were, some 249 00:12:20,685 --> 00:12:21,925 of them were abolitionists, 250 00:12:22,025 --> 00:12:24,405 and they were really worried that this, um, 251 00:12:24,605 --> 00:12:29,165 abolitionist contingent was going to vote to prevent some 252 00:12:29,165 --> 00:12:32,765 of these folks that, that wanted to, um, have people 253 00:12:32,765 --> 00:12:37,285 that they'd enslaved continue to be, you know, uh, legal. 254 00:12:38,465 --> 00:12:40,725 So the, the Mormons, um, ended up, 255 00:12:40,725 --> 00:12:42,685 or the Latter Day Saints left 256 00:12:42,825 --> 00:12:46,645 and went to Illinois to Navu, taking with them this idea 257 00:12:46,645 --> 00:12:48,965 of Zion, this idea of promised land that, 258 00:12:49,115 --> 00:12:51,765 that Joseph Smith said God had given them. 259 00:12:52,345 --> 00:12:54,645 And when Joseph Smith was assassinated, 260 00:12:54,645 --> 00:12:57,645 Brigham Young took the idea of Zion with him 261 00:12:57,945 --> 00:13:00,405 to the Great Basin and the Colorado Plateau, 262 00:13:00,585 --> 00:13:03,805 and initially tried to set up this empire called Desere, 263 00:13:03,935 --> 00:13:06,565 which spanned from Oregon down to Mexico. 264 00:13:07,605 --> 00:13:10,685 And, uh, and this idea that, um, 265 00:13:11,235 --> 00:13:15,525 this was promised land, I think really continues to, 266 00:13:15,865 --> 00:13:17,485 to influence the way 267 00:13:18,435 --> 00:13:21,485 some latter day saints see public land. 268 00:13:21,865 --> 00:13:24,325 And, and I think it is a layer in this, 269 00:13:24,665 --> 00:13:29,565 and I, I think that, you know, the state's rights movements, 270 00:13:29,925 --> 00:13:33,205 although they weren't solely, um, LDS, I think 271 00:13:33,205 --> 00:13:37,045 that there was this intimacy, this, this, um, this real 272 00:13:37,865 --> 00:13:41,005 notion that this is their land, uh, 273 00:13:41,175 --> 00:13:44,725 based in part on early Mormon church theology. 274 00:13:46,045 --> 00:13:47,965 - A a and you touched on this, obviously, 275 00:13:48,235 --> 00:13:50,525 this was all indigenous land 276 00:13:50,905 --> 00:13:53,485 before LDS showed up. 277 00:13:54,145 --> 00:13:56,525 So how, in their theology, and, 278 00:13:56,525 --> 00:13:59,485 and if this gets back to beneficial use, uh, how, 279 00:13:59,505 --> 00:14:02,165 how in in their theology do they justify 280 00:14:02,825 --> 00:14:05,925 taking the land from the southern PA in the case of, 281 00:14:05,945 --> 00:14:08,285 of Nevada or throughout, uh, 282 00:14:08,335 --> 00:14:10,125 throughout the Kingdom of Deseret? 283 00:14:10,345 --> 00:14:13,245 How does that work theologically for 284 00:14:13,785 --> 00:14:15,325 th these Bundy type extremists? 285 00:14:16,355 --> 00:14:19,165 - Yeah, and I, I talk about this in, in American Zion, 286 00:14:19,165 --> 00:14:23,765 that the idea of, in particular, let, let's talk about Clive 287 00:14:23,765 --> 00:14:25,205 and, uh, and Gold Butte 288 00:14:25,545 --> 00:14:29,885 and his idea of the hypothetical first Mormon settler. 289 00:14:29,945 --> 00:14:33,965 So the, the Mormon folks came to these areas 290 00:14:34,115 --> 00:14:36,605 that were overlooked by other, uh, white, 291 00:14:37,425 --> 00:14:38,445 you know, colonists. 292 00:14:38,695 --> 00:14:40,765 These were really remote lands. 293 00:14:40,765 --> 00:14:42,525 They weren't particularly productive. 294 00:14:42,525 --> 00:14:45,925 They were very hard to, to settle. 295 00:14:46,465 --> 00:14:50,485 Um, the, the Southern Paiute had been much more effective 296 00:14:50,705 --> 00:14:52,805 at, at operating in these areas 297 00:14:52,805 --> 00:14:57,245 because they would move with, uh, the, the game 298 00:14:57,585 --> 00:15:00,405 and with, um, different types of harvest. 299 00:15:00,745 --> 00:15:03,205 And they were utilizing the land in a much, 300 00:15:03,475 --> 00:15:06,565 much better way than Mormon settlers who were coming. 301 00:15:06,705 --> 00:15:10,285 And, and, you know, they were sedentary . 302 00:15:10,285 --> 00:15:13,685 They were, they were, um, creating, um, farms 303 00:15:13,825 --> 00:15:15,885 and ranches around water sources. 304 00:15:16,785 --> 00:15:21,365 And, um, and so this was their idea of promised land. 305 00:15:21,365 --> 00:15:22,765 This was what God had given them. 306 00:15:22,905 --> 00:15:24,645 The Southern Paiute had an idea 307 00:15:24,645 --> 00:15:26,525 that this was their sacred land, 308 00:15:26,865 --> 00:15:30,485 and this was land that was stingy in some ways 309 00:15:30,595 --> 00:15:34,525 that couldn't accommodate two different cultures, ideas 310 00:15:34,665 --> 00:15:38,805 of sacred land, so many of the Southern Paiute starved. 311 00:15:39,065 --> 00:15:40,605 And, uh, and it's, I mean, 312 00:15:40,605 --> 00:15:42,325 it's a really heartbreaking history. 313 00:15:42,825 --> 00:15:45,845 Um, and, and again, you know, when, 314 00:15:46,235 --> 00:15:48,885 when this indigenous group was really, 315 00:15:49,185 --> 00:15:51,325 the Southern Paiute were really counting, 316 00:15:51,885 --> 00:15:53,125 counting on water sources, 317 00:15:53,465 --> 00:15:56,605 and all of a sudden Mormon settlements were, uh, 318 00:15:56,945 --> 00:15:59,045 you know, co-opting them. 319 00:15:59,425 --> 00:16:03,485 And, and that was enormously problematic and, and tragic. 320 00:16:05,655 --> 00:16:07,435 Now I've forgotten the rest of your question, 321 00:16:07,595 --> 00:16:10,715 - , the notion of beneficial use, then how, okay. 322 00:16:11,085 --> 00:16:12,275 - Thank you. Thank you. 323 00:16:12,375 --> 00:16:14,675 So that, that I'm afraid, you know, 324 00:16:14,675 --> 00:16:17,515 when you look at different ways of utilizing the land, 325 00:16:17,815 --> 00:16:18,915 the Southern Paiute 326 00:16:19,055 --> 00:16:21,995 and the Latter Day Saints, there, 327 00:16:22,405 --> 00:16:27,155 there was this notion that if you utilize that, 328 00:16:27,215 --> 00:16:30,515 if you, if you farmed, you were somehow 329 00:16:31,485 --> 00:16:34,955 doing something that was more productive than, um, 330 00:16:35,265 --> 00:16:39,635 communities that, that were moving around on a landscape, 331 00:16:40,015 --> 00:16:41,995 um, rather than settling landscape 332 00:16:41,995 --> 00:16:46,715 - In, in a divine sense, that, that God gives you the right 333 00:16:46,715 --> 00:16:49,555 to the land because you are settling on it as opposed 334 00:16:49,655 --> 00:16:53,995 to a more nomadic, uh, lifestyle. Is that the 335 00:16:54,185 --> 00:16:56,595 - Yeah, and I, I mean, I would even say that, um, 336 00:16:56,745 --> 00:16:57,995 that again, it goes back to 337 00:16:57,995 --> 00:17:01,275 what we talked about a few minutes ago, that God 338 00:17:02,015 --> 00:17:06,035 is delighted, his eye is delighted by a built environment. 339 00:17:06,255 --> 00:17:10,195 So if there is utilization, if there is cultivation 340 00:17:10,575 --> 00:17:15,395 that's pleasing God in a way that leaving the land as is 341 00:17:15,495 --> 00:17:17,835 or are, are actually, I mean, we know 342 00:17:17,835 --> 00:17:20,835 that indigenous communities were farming, they were, 343 00:17:21,105 --> 00:17:22,755 they were utilizing lands. 344 00:17:22,755 --> 00:17:26,715 They, they, they weren't building permanent structures. 345 00:17:27,295 --> 00:17:28,435 Um, and, uh, 346 00:17:28,615 --> 00:17:31,875 and so there was this idea on the part 347 00:17:31,975 --> 00:17:33,955 of early Mormon settlers and, 348 00:17:33,955 --> 00:17:36,955 and an idea that continues to perpetuate that, 349 00:17:37,025 --> 00:17:39,235 that the early Mormon settlers 350 00:17:39,375 --> 00:17:43,515 and Mormons today are, are utilizing the land in a 351 00:17:44,185 --> 00:17:45,955 somehow better way. Yeah. 352 00:17:45,975 --> 00:17:48,715 - And, and that Utah's state motto today still is 353 00:17:49,125 --> 00:17:50,285 - Industry it Yes. 354 00:17:50,565 --> 00:17:51,725 . Yeah, very much is. Yeah. 355 00:17:51,945 --> 00:17:56,285 Um, um, so I wanna circle it back to the Bundys. 356 00:17:56,465 --> 00:17:58,525 Um, they're super interesting 357 00:17:58,525 --> 00:18:00,845 because they pop up all around the west kind 358 00:18:00,845 --> 00:18:01,925 of capitalizing on 359 00:18:01,945 --> 00:18:03,125 and fomenting discontent 360 00:18:03,125 --> 00:18:04,525 with the government in different ways 361 00:18:04,625 --> 00:18:09,045 and places like, um, am Amman recently getting in 362 00:18:09,045 --> 00:18:10,565 that legal spat with the hospital 363 00:18:10,785 --> 00:18:14,285 and protesting a child abuse case, . 364 00:18:14,345 --> 00:18:17,685 Um, uh, how did they become 365 00:18:17,825 --> 00:18:19,925 so radicalized against the government? 366 00:18:19,955 --> 00:18:23,085 Like, I'm curious why their activism has broken out 367 00:18:23,085 --> 00:18:26,285 of just sort of the ranching public lands realm, and 368 00:18:26,285 --> 00:18:28,685 and why do you think they're so good at organizing 369 00:18:28,685 --> 00:18:31,685 and motivating people to take up arms with them? 370 00:18:32,795 --> 00:18:34,085 - I've thought a lot about this, 371 00:18:34,425 --> 00:18:36,245 and when I met with the Bundys, 372 00:18:36,325 --> 00:18:38,045 I really saw them as outliers. 373 00:18:38,265 --> 00:18:39,805 And so that was in 2015. 374 00:18:40,265 --> 00:18:45,125 And what's happened, I think in the last several years 375 00:18:46,385 --> 00:18:47,965 as the journalist, uh, 376 00:18:47,965 --> 00:18:51,885 Todd Wilkinson says he's seen the ification of the West. 377 00:18:52,305 --> 00:18:54,765 And I would argue that we've seen the Ification 378 00:18:54,765 --> 00:18:56,805 of America in some ways. 379 00:18:56,905 --> 00:19:01,765 And so in, in True West, I look at how the Battle 380 00:19:01,785 --> 00:19:05,205 of Bunkerville, that event in 2014, uh, 381 00:19:05,345 --> 00:19:08,725 became in some ways the beginning of a trajectory 382 00:19:08,985 --> 00:19:13,465 for some folks to get to January 6th. 383 00:19:14,165 --> 00:19:17,385 And, and how this event was particularly galvanizing, 384 00:19:17,385 --> 00:19:21,785 particularly to, to Stewart Rhodes, who is the head 385 00:19:22,045 --> 00:19:23,945 or, you know, was the head of the Oath Keepers 386 00:19:23,945 --> 00:19:25,905 and now in prison for 18 years, 387 00:19:26,365 --> 00:19:28,585 and he was involved in the Battle of Bunkerville. 388 00:19:29,305 --> 00:19:31,985 I also think that, you know, again, as I said, 389 00:19:32,145 --> 00:19:34,225 I saw these fa, this family as outliers. 390 00:19:34,415 --> 00:19:36,705 They've actually been really front 391 00:19:36,725 --> 00:19:39,625 and center now in American pop culture. 392 00:19:39,945 --> 00:19:43,505 I don't know if you all have seen Season five of Fargo, 393 00:19:44,085 --> 00:19:47,305 but, uh, John Ham plays a constitutional sheriff, 394 00:19:47,485 --> 00:19:49,065 and he refers to Amon, 395 00:19:49,125 --> 00:19:52,825 and he refers to LaVoy Finicum in this very 396 00:19:52,825 --> 00:19:54,345 popular television show. 397 00:19:54,645 --> 00:19:56,945 So, so it's something that, that they have really, 398 00:19:57,735 --> 00:20:01,865 they have really risen to these levels of, of pop culture. 399 00:20:02,015 --> 00:20:06,825 They, there's a great deal of adoration, uh, out there 400 00:20:07,125 --> 00:20:09,945 for what the Bundy family did in terms 401 00:20:09,965 --> 00:20:11,425 of taking on the government. 402 00:20:11,475 --> 00:20:14,225 Again, it was kind of the, the whole appeal of David 403 00:20:14,325 --> 00:20:16,145 and Goliath and, uh, 404 00:20:16,145 --> 00:20:20,665 and so I think that that really, uh, created, uh, um, 405 00:20:21,305 --> 00:20:23,345 a great deal of, of support for them, 406 00:20:23,405 --> 00:20:27,425 but also created momentum in, in the militia movement. 407 00:20:28,045 --> 00:20:30,905 And, um, and in terms of, uh, 408 00:20:31,285 --> 00:20:35,945 why they're particularly successful, I, 409 00:20:36,265 --> 00:20:38,705 I, you know, it's, first of all, they got away with it. 410 00:20:39,215 --> 00:20:41,185 They, they got away with both Mal here, 411 00:20:41,365 --> 00:20:42,945 and they got away with, um, 412 00:20:42,965 --> 00:20:46,905 the event in the standoff in Nevada, in Mal here in Oregon. 413 00:20:47,395 --> 00:20:48,445 They were acquitted. 414 00:20:48,675 --> 00:20:52,645 This was Amon and Ryan, uh, in Nevada. 415 00:20:52,855 --> 00:20:54,965 There was, there was a mistrial declared, 416 00:20:55,105 --> 00:20:59,285 and that was Amon Ryan and, um, Cliven. 417 00:20:59,665 --> 00:21:01,405 And so they've been able to get away with it. 418 00:21:01,465 --> 00:21:03,045 In terms of this St. 419 00:21:03,105 --> 00:21:05,965 Luke's thing, this actually is something, 420 00:21:06,305 --> 00:21:07,645 and this is the hospital invoice. 421 00:21:07,955 --> 00:21:09,525 This is the hospital invoicing we're jumping ahead with. 422 00:21:09,535 --> 00:21:13,365 Sorry about that. Yeah. So this is what I've come to kind 423 00:21:13,365 --> 00:21:15,205 of think about Amon. 424 00:21:15,805 --> 00:21:18,485 I talked to Amon at the beginning of Pandemic, 425 00:21:19,545 --> 00:21:21,645 and so it was in March of 2020, 426 00:21:22,305 --> 00:21:27,205 and he was kind of hot under the collar about restrictions 427 00:21:27,275 --> 00:21:29,565 that involved private businesses 428 00:21:30,025 --> 00:21:33,085 and the limits of, uh, are, are you, you know, the, the, 429 00:21:33,585 --> 00:21:36,285 the sort of shutdown of gathering for worship. 430 00:21:36,865 --> 00:21:40,485 So essentially gathering, being in places in public 431 00:21:40,625 --> 00:21:42,525 and how that was impacting churches 432 00:21:42,985 --> 00:21:45,165 and businesses at the time. 433 00:21:45,265 --> 00:21:47,325 He said, you know, I don't believe in any of 434 00:21:47,325 --> 00:21:50,285 that other stuff alluding to Q Anon. 435 00:21:50,865 --> 00:21:52,445 Um, because, you know, 436 00:21:52,705 --> 00:21:55,805 that's when Q Anon was really starting to kind 437 00:21:55,805 --> 00:22:00,125 of put its tentacles into the, the COV pandemic, uh, 438 00:22:00,125 --> 00:22:03,925 misinformation, sort of, you know, social media stuff, 439 00:22:04,045 --> 00:22:05,885 a perfect storm of conspiracy theories, right? 440 00:22:05,885 --> 00:22:08,445 Right. And, and, uh, at the time he said, no, uh, uh, 441 00:22:08,445 --> 00:22:10,125 that's not something that he believes in, 442 00:22:10,405 --> 00:22:12,805 although a number of sup his supporters did. 443 00:22:13,305 --> 00:22:17,325 And, but he made that specific point to me, I think that 444 00:22:17,835 --> 00:22:22,045 Amon, unlike Cliven, who I really, truly believe 445 00:22:23,155 --> 00:22:26,605 buys all of this, the, the religious layer, the, the fact 446 00:22:26,605 --> 00:22:29,205 that he is meant to be fighting this battle, the fact 447 00:22:29,205 --> 00:22:30,445 that the government doesn't 448 00:22:30,465 --> 00:22:32,845 or can't have public land or can't own it. 449 00:22:33,845 --> 00:22:37,045 I think that Amon saw this as this opportunity to 450 00:22:38,295 --> 00:22:42,245 build a big coalition to run for governor of Idaho 451 00:22:42,465 --> 00:22:43,565 to raise money. 452 00:22:44,105 --> 00:22:47,645 And I think he embraced these kind of Q Anon pieces. 453 00:22:47,825 --> 00:22:49,045 And, and again, the St. 454 00:22:49,105 --> 00:22:52,805 Luke's piece that you talked about, Kate, this is a hospital 455 00:22:53,235 --> 00:22:58,205 that, um, that was looking at this malnourished 456 00:22:58,335 --> 00:22:59,845 child, baby Cyrus. 457 00:23:00,345 --> 00:23:03,685 And this happened to be the grandchild of one 458 00:23:03,785 --> 00:23:06,445 of Amman's close associates. 459 00:23:06,875 --> 00:23:11,805 This baby was not, um, physically capable to, to, 460 00:23:11,985 --> 00:23:13,445 um, take on nourishment. 461 00:23:13,645 --> 00:23:15,125 I, the mother, I don't, I mean, 462 00:23:15,125 --> 00:23:16,845 the mother I think, was feeding the baby. 463 00:23:16,945 --> 00:23:21,005 The baby had an issue with being able to absorb nutrition. 464 00:23:21,305 --> 00:23:23,285 And so the hospital wanted to make sure 465 00:23:23,285 --> 00:23:24,565 that this baby was okay. 466 00:23:24,985 --> 00:23:27,725 Uh, the family was unwilling to bring the baby back 467 00:23:27,725 --> 00:23:29,205 for a check in a checkup. 468 00:23:29,505 --> 00:23:31,885 And, and all of a sudden thought, and, 469 00:23:32,025 --> 00:23:34,645 and I shouldn't say that, I, I don't know what he thought, 470 00:23:34,825 --> 00:23:38,625 but Amon made this a campaign that the, 471 00:23:38,655 --> 00:23:40,425 that the hospital was trafficking. 472 00:23:40,765 --> 00:23:45,445 Uh, and, um, he started to docks, uh, hospital staff. 473 00:23:45,915 --> 00:23:50,165 They had a big protest, um, Amons, uh, group, 474 00:23:50,385 --> 00:23:52,805 the People's Right Network, which was something 475 00:23:52,805 --> 00:23:54,765 that he created during Pandemic. 476 00:23:55,105 --> 00:23:56,885 It, it essentially was, I mean, 477 00:23:56,885 --> 00:23:58,685 he called it a neighborhood watch group. 478 00:23:58,825 --> 00:24:00,845 It was enormously disruptive and, 479 00:24:00,905 --> 00:24:02,605 and communities including my own. 480 00:24:03,345 --> 00:24:06,925 And, um, and so they protest in front of St. 481 00:24:06,925 --> 00:24:10,445 Luke's Hospital. Um, they had to divert ambulances 482 00:24:10,625 --> 00:24:12,405 for people who really were sick. 483 00:24:12,865 --> 00:24:14,045 And, uh, and so St. 484 00:24:14,065 --> 00:24:17,085 Luke's decided to fight back against Amon 485 00:24:17,225 --> 00:24:20,605 and ended up winning $52 million in a defamation suit. 486 00:24:20,705 --> 00:24:24,605 So, and now he's just gone. W you know, you hear rumors here 487 00:24:24,605 --> 00:24:25,605 - And there. 488 00:24:25,605 --> 00:24:27,085 We, no one's seen him, in se several, several weeks 489 00:24:27,105 --> 00:24:28,165 or months now at this point. 490 00:24:28,165 --> 00:24:29,645 Right. He tried to sell the house 491 00:24:29,785 --> 00:24:31,365 and didn't get away with that. 492 00:24:31,465 --> 00:24:33,365 And, uh, do we know where he is right now? 493 00:24:33,365 --> 00:24:35,645 - Uh, I keep hearing rumors. I don't know for sure. 494 00:24:35,805 --> 00:24:38,125 I had, I was just at the Tucson Book Festival, 495 00:24:38,125 --> 00:24:41,205 and I had a woman say, I think I know where Amon is, 496 00:24:41,265 --> 00:24:42,445 and kind of tell, 497 00:24:42,875 --> 00:24:44,725 tell me a little bit of a secret. And 498 00:24:44,985 --> 00:24:46,285 - Anyway, - It was, it's, 499 00:24:46,805 --> 00:24:47,925 - I don't, yeah, we'll see. 500 00:24:48,005 --> 00:24:50,685 I, I don't know that we need to turn, you know? Yeah. 501 00:24:50,685 --> 00:24:53,245 Where, where's, where's Amon into a a Where's Waldo book? 502 00:24:53,265 --> 00:24:55,405 It just helps, helps with the, the myth . 503 00:24:55,905 --> 00:24:59,205 Uh, let, so let's get back to some of these myths 504 00:24:59,235 --> 00:25:02,405 that you really get into, into the, in your second book, 505 00:25:02,785 --> 00:25:05,725 you mentioned Constitutional Sheriffs Now making it all the 506 00:25:05,725 --> 00:25:08,325 way into Season five of Fargo. 507 00:25:08,345 --> 00:25:11,365 And that was the myth, of course, that got 508 00:25:11,875 --> 00:25:13,685 Levo Finicum killed this 509 00:25:13,825 --> 00:25:17,005 during the second Bundy standoff in Maller, uh, 510 00:25:17,155 --> 00:25:19,285 they left the Mallard Wildlife Refuge, 511 00:25:19,465 --> 00:25:22,765 and were trying to go get Safe haven from what they believed 512 00:25:22,825 --> 00:25:26,485 to be a constitutional sheriff in a neighboring county. 513 00:25:27,145 --> 00:25:31,805 And when they got pulled over, uh, Amon said, we're going 514 00:25:31,805 --> 00:25:34,005 to see the Sheriff as if that's somehow a, you know, 515 00:25:34,005 --> 00:25:36,965 a get out of jail free card, the FBI will be like, oh, sure. 516 00:25:37,225 --> 00:25:39,325 Get on your way, sir. Uh, right. 517 00:25:40,085 --> 00:25:43,365 E explain this Constitutional Sheriff nonsense and, 518 00:25:43,365 --> 00:25:46,125 and how it ties into public lands extremism. 519 00:25:46,715 --> 00:25:49,165 - Yeah. I write about this in American science, 520 00:25:49,225 --> 00:25:51,365 so I might be a teeny bit rusty on this, 521 00:25:51,545 --> 00:25:55,685 but , uh, so Richard Mack is, 522 00:25:56,825 --> 00:25:59,405 he heads the Constitutional Sheriff's 523 00:25:59,405 --> 00:26:02,045 and Peacekeeping Association, 524 00:26:02,465 --> 00:26:07,045 and he is in very, very, uh, he's been in, in, um, 525 00:26:07,475 --> 00:26:09,445 cahoots with Stewart Rhodes. 526 00:26:09,605 --> 00:26:13,485 I, I saw them present together at something called 527 00:26:14,025 --> 00:26:18,285 The Red Pill Expo, which is a gathering 528 00:26:18,285 --> 00:26:20,245 - Of, oh boy, send, send me my tickets. 529 00:26:20,915 --> 00:26:22,885 - Yeah, it was a, it was quite a show. 530 00:26:23,265 --> 00:26:25,405 And so this was a gathering 531 00:26:25,945 --> 00:26:28,645 of every conspiracy theorist that you can imagine. 532 00:26:28,715 --> 00:26:32,485 This happened, I saw it in October of 2020, 533 00:26:32,625 --> 00:26:34,205 and they were already talking about 534 00:26:34,225 --> 00:26:35,405 the election being stolen. 535 00:26:35,545 --> 00:26:37,445 So they were already positioning themselves, 536 00:26:37,505 --> 00:26:40,365 and I'm, I'm talking about Richard Mack, 537 00:26:40,365 --> 00:26:44,485 this constitutional sheriff, uh, Stewart Rhodes, who, again, 538 00:26:44,485 --> 00:26:47,765 the head of the Oath Keepers, there were some adamant, 539 00:26:47,835 --> 00:26:49,445 adamant anti-vaxxers. 540 00:26:49,775 --> 00:26:53,605 There were, uh, Q Anon folks, uh, one guy in particular 541 00:26:53,705 --> 00:26:56,485 who talks about the lizard, people who walk among us. 542 00:26:56,825 --> 00:27:01,645 And then at lunch, the film was, the Titanic never sank. 543 00:27:02,065 --> 00:27:03,325 So this was . 544 00:27:03,325 --> 00:27:05,885 - Oh, wow. So we're, we're from the crazy 545 00:27:06,065 --> 00:27:07,325 to the Totally nuts 546 00:27:07,475 --> 00:27:08,685 - Here. Yeah. So, so there was, it 547 00:27:08,705 --> 00:27:10,965 - Was quite - A group, and I tell you at the time, it, 548 00:27:10,985 --> 00:27:12,045 it is easy to laugh, 549 00:27:12,065 --> 00:27:14,885 but I, that's when I realized this was a really 550 00:27:15,095 --> 00:27:16,245 broad coalition. 551 00:27:16,415 --> 00:27:18,885 These were, this was unprecedented in terms 552 00:27:18,945 --> 00:27:21,245 of bringing these groups together. 553 00:27:21,665 --> 00:27:25,565 So you had yoga moms who didn't wanna vaccinate their kids, 554 00:27:25,915 --> 00:27:28,965 hanging out with lizard people, believers 555 00:27:29,425 --> 00:27:31,405 and constitutional sheriffs. 556 00:27:31,705 --> 00:27:35,045 And the Constitutional Sheriff is, um, the idea is 557 00:27:35,045 --> 00:27:39,765 that they are the, uh, they have the most authority 558 00:27:40,305 --> 00:27:43,485 of, of any law enforcement in the land, in court, um, 559 00:27:43,485 --> 00:27:45,725 including the government because they're elected. 560 00:27:46,155 --> 00:27:47,845 It's absolutely bogus. 561 00:27:48,265 --> 00:27:52,085 But it is a belief that, again, you know, the belief 562 00:27:52,085 --> 00:27:55,405 that the federal government can't own public land. 563 00:27:56,035 --> 00:27:58,325 It's the same thing with the constitutional sheriffs, 564 00:27:58,325 --> 00:28:00,405 that they believe that they're the highest law 565 00:28:00,425 --> 00:28:01,925 of the land. And it, 566 00:28:02,035 --> 00:28:04,245 - Even though the world sheriff doesn't ever appear 567 00:28:04,245 --> 00:28:05,365 in the Constitution, it, 568 00:28:05,365 --> 00:28:07,765 - It's, it's go and it goes back to, um, 569 00:28:08,365 --> 00:28:09,765 religious extremism again. 570 00:28:09,845 --> 00:28:11,925 I mean, it, it's, these are, these are, um, folks 571 00:28:11,925 --> 00:28:16,765 that came out of, of real, real, uh, religious, 572 00:28:17,035 --> 00:28:21,085 like, I mean, people sort of positioning themselves for 573 00:28:21,745 --> 00:28:26,525 anti-government, um, activism and civil war, um, mentality. 574 00:28:27,185 --> 00:28:30,205 - Um, Betsy, I am curious, as you're talking about this, 575 00:28:30,385 --> 00:28:34,685 how do you, how do you feel when you go to these meetups, 576 00:28:34,985 --> 00:28:36,005 um, and how, 577 00:28:36,065 --> 00:28:38,645 and when you talk to these people, like where do you, 578 00:28:38,905 --> 00:28:39,925 how do you approach them? 579 00:28:40,305 --> 00:28:42,565 How do you find the common ground necessary 580 00:28:42,625 --> 00:28:44,605 to have a conversation with them? 581 00:28:46,405 --> 00:28:50,285 - I will be honest with you, I am very, um, 582 00:28:50,995 --> 00:28:52,805 willing to talk to folks. 583 00:28:53,165 --> 00:28:57,325 I, I worry about people being vulnerable to these ideas. 584 00:28:57,585 --> 00:28:59,685 So I'm willing to talk to folks 585 00:29:01,105 --> 00:29:02,925 before they're fully indoctrinated. 586 00:29:03,025 --> 00:29:05,565 But I really believe that there are bad guys out there. 587 00:29:05,745 --> 00:29:09,685 And, and, and so I, when I talk to Clive 588 00:29:09,685 --> 00:29:12,645 and I, I stuck 589 00:29:12,645 --> 00:29:15,245 with talking about L-D-S-I-I, 590 00:29:15,305 --> 00:29:18,245 we really focused on his religious beliefs. 591 00:29:18,425 --> 00:29:21,685 And when they began to talk a little bit about the Battle 592 00:29:21,685 --> 00:29:23,245 of Bunkerville, and I, I'm telling you, 593 00:29:23,585 --> 00:29:26,245 it was a thrilling event to a number of people. 594 00:29:26,345 --> 00:29:28,725 Uh, there was a lot of adrenaline, a lot 595 00:29:28,725 --> 00:29:30,365 of feeling of victory. 596 00:29:31,105 --> 00:29:34,845 Um, and so you can understand where 597 00:29:34,845 --> 00:29:36,245 that could be somewhat contagious. 598 00:29:36,635 --> 00:29:39,925 I've, I've thought a lot about that, you know, why this, 599 00:29:40,315 --> 00:29:43,885 what it did in terms of motivating individuals 600 00:29:43,985 --> 00:29:45,045 and, and this culture. 601 00:29:45,665 --> 00:29:50,405 But, um, but I, I have talked to folks that I talk, 602 00:29:50,475 --> 00:29:52,365 I've talked to folks who've left the movement. 603 00:29:52,905 --> 00:29:55,525 Um, I've talked to folks who've been vulnerable to it. 604 00:29:55,665 --> 00:29:59,605 And, and, um, you know, again, my idea being very much, 605 00:29:59,905 --> 00:30:03,925 how do we keep our communities healthy so that social media 606 00:30:04,465 --> 00:30:06,725 and cynical politicians and, 607 00:30:06,825 --> 00:30:10,525 and people making power plays don't own the day, don't, 608 00:30:10,785 --> 00:30:14,125 aren't able to, to indoctrinate, um, and, 609 00:30:14,225 --> 00:30:15,925 and spread extremism. 610 00:30:16,025 --> 00:30:17,925 So I think it's really important to, 611 00:30:18,465 --> 00:30:19,885 to have these conversations. 612 00:30:20,315 --> 00:30:23,525 However, there are people who were really dangerous. 613 00:30:23,865 --> 00:30:27,605 And I, I did have one incident that, 614 00:30:27,675 --> 00:30:30,165 that I'm not particularly proud of. 615 00:30:30,705 --> 00:30:34,125 Um, but I went to, this was not the Red Pill Expo, 616 00:30:34,125 --> 00:30:35,325 which was a national event. 617 00:30:35,325 --> 00:30:39,885 This was the Red Pill Festival, which was a regional event. 618 00:30:40,405 --> 00:30:43,965 God, no. So, so I went to a little town called St. 619 00:30:44,175 --> 00:30:46,845 Regis, which in the last or the week or two 620 00:30:46,845 --> 00:30:51,085 before they had this Red Pill festival, 621 00:30:51,625 --> 00:30:54,885 um, the, the saw mill, uh, 622 00:30:55,065 --> 00:30:58,845 or this, the, the, there was a timber, um, industry, 623 00:30:58,845 --> 00:31:00,525 timber business that had, 624 00:31:00,675 --> 00:31:04,965 that had laid off 97 people in a town of, I, I have 625 00:31:04,965 --> 00:31:06,685 to believe it's less than 500 people. 626 00:31:07,145 --> 00:31:10,365 So that kind of thing does leave folks vulnerable 627 00:31:10,505 --> 00:31:11,845 to, to extremism. 628 00:31:11,965 --> 00:31:14,565 I mean, that anger, that, that belief 629 00:31:14,565 --> 00:31:18,845 that somehow environmentalists are behind all this, and, 630 00:31:18,945 --> 00:31:22,485 and these, these folks pick these small towns 631 00:31:22,485 --> 00:31:24,485 that are vulnerable to extremism. 632 00:31:25,065 --> 00:31:29,285 So I was at this event, the, the mc, Derek Skis, 633 00:31:29,305 --> 00:31:32,605 who is a former state legislature, was 634 00:31:33,285 --> 00:31:35,645 unbelievably awful to, I mean, 635 00:31:35,715 --> 00:31:38,405 just really vindictive, really ugly. 636 00:31:38,985 --> 00:31:41,845 He was being, there was a Washington Post person there, 637 00:31:41,845 --> 00:31:44,765 there, vice News was there, there were other, uh, 638 00:31:44,765 --> 00:31:46,725 journalists there from Montana. 639 00:31:47,145 --> 00:31:50,445 Uh, I was there. I don't, I'm a historian and a researcher. 640 00:31:50,765 --> 00:31:52,245 I don't consider myself a journalist, 641 00:31:52,265 --> 00:31:56,325 but I, I do journalism in, in some of this work that I do. 642 00:31:56,825 --> 00:31:58,525 So he was being horrible, 643 00:31:59,185 --> 00:32:01,005 and I, the every person 644 00:32:01,065 --> 00:32:03,925 who got up there was just spreading lies. 645 00:32:04,105 --> 00:32:08,165 And it, I, it's the only time that I got really mad. 646 00:32:08,705 --> 00:32:11,765 And one of the guys who got up there was Joey Gibson, 647 00:32:11,855 --> 00:32:13,245 who's from Patriot Prayer, 648 00:32:13,745 --> 00:32:16,285 and he'd been the one who'd been just horrible 649 00:32:16,425 --> 00:32:18,485 to the Black Lives Matter protesters. 650 00:32:18,785 --> 00:32:21,125 And he'd showed up with folks and their ars 651 00:32:21,225 --> 00:32:23,405 and he just, he was so nasty. 652 00:32:23,665 --> 00:32:26,005 And he got up there and he is saying, you know, 653 00:32:26,005 --> 00:32:27,045 what the right thing is to do? 654 00:32:27,685 --> 00:32:30,245 I mean, or rather, God is telling you what to do. 655 00:32:30,465 --> 00:32:32,285 God is in your heart. We know we have 656 00:32:32,285 --> 00:32:35,485 to fight against the liberals, and we know we have to. 657 00:32:36,125 --> 00:32:38,245 I mean, essentially, it's a, it's a religious mandate. 658 00:32:38,545 --> 00:32:40,445 And I went up to him afterwards, , 659 00:32:40,445 --> 00:32:42,685 and I just, I went up to his booth 660 00:32:42,705 --> 00:32:45,965 and I said, what about God telling other people 661 00:32:46,105 --> 00:32:48,325 to do completely different things? 662 00:32:48,395 --> 00:32:51,725 Like what if God is saying, you know, get in there and, 663 00:32:51,825 --> 00:32:53,805 and protest for Black Lives Matter. 664 00:32:53,995 --> 00:32:55,445 Make sure that we're taking care 665 00:32:55,445 --> 00:32:58,365 of people in our community, spread the love. 666 00:32:58,365 --> 00:33:01,445 Like what if God is saying, leave your ars at home? 667 00:33:01,825 --> 00:33:05,725 You know? And, and, and he was so, um, sort of, 668 00:33:06,685 --> 00:33:08,765 I mean, I think he just said, oh, well, um, 669 00:33:09,385 --> 00:33:10,805 God can talk to you too. 670 00:33:10,965 --> 00:33:15,605 I mean, it was just like one, I think he was so, um, but, 671 00:33:15,625 --> 00:33:16,685 but he is like, no, that's, 672 00:33:17,125 --> 00:33:18,565 I think it's, God talks to everybody. 673 00:33:18,665 --> 00:33:21,325 And I said, but you're telling us that God talks 674 00:33:21,325 --> 00:33:22,565 to one set of folks. 675 00:33:22,985 --> 00:33:26,445 And I, anyway, I got into a little bit of a discussion 676 00:33:26,445 --> 00:33:28,445 with him because I was so sick of it. 677 00:33:29,025 --> 00:33:31,365 Um, that probably wasn't my finest moment, 678 00:33:31,465 --> 00:33:36,325 but I was, I was, I, I didn't, I, I wasn't, I was ready 679 00:33:36,385 --> 00:33:39,085 to just, uh, knock my head against a wall. 680 00:33:40,065 --> 00:33:42,965 - So I wanna talk about geography then. 'cause this is St. 681 00:33:43,085 --> 00:33:44,605 Regis, Montana that you're talking about, 682 00:33:44,605 --> 00:33:46,565 which is along I 90, right? 683 00:33:46,915 --> 00:33:49,165 Real close to the Idaho border. 684 00:33:49,705 --> 00:33:54,125 And we are seeing a, a growing stronghold of extremism 685 00:33:54,665 --> 00:33:57,965 in Idaho, especially the further north you get. 686 00:33:58,265 --> 00:34:02,365 So what is going on up there that you have these extremists 687 00:34:02,925 --> 00:34:05,725 choosing to settle in, in Idaho, 688 00:34:05,785 --> 00:34:08,805 and what does that mean, both for public lands 689 00:34:08,805 --> 00:34:12,125 and I suppose democracy writ large 690 00:34:12,715 --> 00:34:15,445 when you have this kind of movement 691 00:34:15,445 --> 00:34:17,205 of people into a specific area? 692 00:34:17,755 --> 00:34:20,085 - Yeah, and I, I mean, let's think a little bit 693 00:34:20,085 --> 00:34:21,165 about public lands. 694 00:34:21,325 --> 00:34:25,885 I if, if on January 6th, you know, hundreds and hundreds 695 00:34:25,885 --> 00:34:28,605 and hundreds and hundreds of people can take over the 696 00:34:28,635 --> 00:34:31,365 capital, imagine how easy it is 697 00:34:31,425 --> 00:34:33,405 to do another action on public lands. 698 00:34:33,445 --> 00:34:35,405 I, I, I mean, public lands are vulnerable, 699 00:34:35,705 --> 00:34:38,405 and it's a, for better 700 00:34:38,405 --> 00:34:42,725 or for worse, great stage for these folks to, to be able 701 00:34:42,725 --> 00:34:45,525 to go in, uh, federal employees leave 702 00:34:45,865 --> 00:34:49,045 and they can, you know, they, they, it was so easy 703 00:34:49,145 --> 00:34:51,205 to take over the Malhere Wildlife Refuge 704 00:34:51,545 --> 00:34:53,845 and, uh, the Battle of Bunkerville over Gold 705 00:34:53,845 --> 00:34:54,965 Butte National Monument. 706 00:34:55,375 --> 00:34:57,725 Again, they, this was, this was something 707 00:34:57,725 --> 00:35:00,285 that was very easy to, to stage. 708 00:35:00,425 --> 00:35:03,285 And it, and it's effective. They, they get their platform. 709 00:35:03,345 --> 00:35:06,085 So I think public lands are extremely vulnerable. 710 00:35:06,465 --> 00:35:08,485 And when you look at places in the West 711 00:35:08,485 --> 00:35:10,965 that are becoming ever more extreme, of course, 712 00:35:10,965 --> 00:35:12,485 they're right next to public land. 713 00:35:12,565 --> 00:35:15,925 I mean, you know, the Idaho Panhandle is right next to the, 714 00:35:15,945 --> 00:35:18,645 um, river of no return wilderness, Frank Church River 715 00:35:18,645 --> 00:35:19,805 of No Return Wilderness. 716 00:35:20,225 --> 00:35:23,005 Um, so, and I, I, again, I I don't know 717 00:35:23,065 --> 00:35:25,045 of any specific action right now. 718 00:35:25,425 --> 00:35:26,925 Um, and one 719 00:35:26,925 --> 00:35:29,925 of the reasons why these folks really like these places is 720 00:35:29,925 --> 00:35:31,605 because of wilderness attributes. 721 00:35:31,765 --> 00:35:34,165 I mean, there, there are places where people can kind 722 00:35:34,165 --> 00:35:35,965 of get escape or get lost, 723 00:35:36,025 --> 00:35:38,125 or have places where they can retreat. 724 00:35:38,305 --> 00:35:42,735 And North Idaho is particularly 725 00:35:43,255 --> 00:35:46,095 interesting because in part, it's part of this campaign 726 00:35:46,195 --> 00:35:49,815 by John Wellesley Rawls, the American readout, 727 00:35:50,105 --> 00:35:54,655 which is Go west, create like-minded communities, 728 00:35:55,195 --> 00:35:57,975 and let's get ready for either a civil war 729 00:35:58,075 --> 00:35:59,095 or the second coming. 730 00:35:59,435 --> 00:36:02,295 So the, these are religiously motivated folks. 731 00:36:02,445 --> 00:36:05,375 Many of them are, um, white Christian nationalists 732 00:36:05,945 --> 00:36:09,935 going into communities that, that have had, uh, 733 00:36:11,055 --> 00:36:12,695 economic, um, declines. 734 00:36:12,775 --> 00:36:15,135 I mean, you know, some of these places are old sawmill 735 00:36:15,185 --> 00:36:16,975 towns, and they can go in 736 00:36:17,315 --> 00:36:21,455 and they feel like they can re recreate communities based on 737 00:36:21,455 --> 00:36:22,975 their own ideologies. 738 00:36:23,195 --> 00:36:26,215 And so that North Idaho is one of those places. 739 00:36:26,635 --> 00:36:28,415 And we know that North Idaho has been 740 00:36:28,415 --> 00:36:29,815 vulnerable to that for a while. 741 00:36:29,855 --> 00:36:31,535 I mean, Richard Butler was there. 742 00:36:32,035 --> 00:36:35,255 Uh, Ruby Ridge took place there. 743 00:36:35,595 --> 00:36:38,375 So these, this is not the, the Unabomber, well, 744 00:36:38,375 --> 00:36:40,175 the Unabomber was in, um, Montana. 745 00:36:40,175 --> 00:36:42,255 Montana, Montana, Montana, that's right. Yeah. 746 00:36:42,275 --> 00:36:45,415 But, but, but it does definitely, uh, 747 00:36:45,515 --> 00:36:47,535 spread into Western Montana. 748 00:36:48,605 --> 00:36:53,585 So, so Raws talks about Colorado, um, east, um, 749 00:36:53,925 --> 00:36:58,425 Oregon, Eastern Washington, uh, the I, uh, Idaho. 750 00:36:59,005 --> 00:37:02,105 Um, and so he's talking about this as a place to, 751 00:37:02,405 --> 00:37:04,185 to build homeland. 752 00:37:04,205 --> 00:37:07,745 And again, as I get into mythologies, this is the mytho 753 00:37:07,745 --> 00:37:11,305 or the myth of homeland, the mi myth of a blank slate, 754 00:37:11,445 --> 00:37:14,705 the myth of a frontier, the myth of a front line. 755 00:37:15,445 --> 00:37:19,025 And, and this is in part what motivates some of these folks. 756 00:37:19,255 --> 00:37:23,985 That said, I was really happy to see 757 00:37:23,985 --> 00:37:27,785 that there are people fighting to, to, um, 758 00:37:27,815 --> 00:37:31,585 push these folks out fighting extremism in Idaho. 759 00:37:32,045 --> 00:37:35,145 Uh, the take back Idaho is really a movement launched 760 00:37:35,205 --> 00:37:37,225 by conservative Republicans 761 00:37:37,605 --> 00:37:40,505 to thwart extremism in their party. 762 00:37:41,355 --> 00:37:42,625 - Betsy, can you say more about that? 763 00:37:42,725 --> 00:37:44,905 Who is working to sort of push back on this? 764 00:37:44,965 --> 00:37:48,145 Is there any, and what tools do you see working, 765 00:37:48,565 --> 00:37:49,945 um, out of those? 766 00:37:50,895 --> 00:37:53,625 - Yeah, I, I have a story. I, I, who do I see? 767 00:37:53,745 --> 00:37:57,185 I see Greg g Graff, I see Krista Hazel, uh, 768 00:37:57,345 --> 00:37:59,385 I see Alicia Abbott, who's 769 00:37:59,385 --> 00:38:02,625 with Idaho 97 Percenters, which is, uh, 770 00:38:04,545 --> 00:38:06,665 - Opposite, the opposite of the 3%, because I love that. 771 00:38:06,965 --> 00:38:11,465 - Um, and Mike SATs, who started, uh, Idaho, um, 97% 772 00:38:11,465 --> 00:38:15,225 or so, the, these are groups that are both, um, you know, 773 00:38:15,245 --> 00:38:17,585 the, the 97 percenters are more on 774 00:38:17,585 --> 00:38:18,665 the liberal side of things. 775 00:38:18,965 --> 00:38:21,905 The take back Idaho folks are, um, Republican, 776 00:38:22,365 --> 00:38:26,505 but they're working together to, to get these folks 777 00:38:27,085 --> 00:38:29,625 who have come in apart from unite the Right. 778 00:38:29,625 --> 00:38:33,105 They're, they're, because Idaho has, um, be, 779 00:38:33,285 --> 00:38:36,925 and I should say that, uh, I, I should, I should reiterate 780 00:38:36,925 --> 00:38:39,445 that, or or rather I should rephrase that, sorry. 781 00:38:39,805 --> 00:38:42,765 . Um, because people 782 00:38:43,145 --> 00:38:46,725 who have moved into Idaho are trying to 783 00:38:47,515 --> 00:38:51,085 promote it as a white Christian nationalist homeland, 784 00:38:51,495 --> 00:38:55,805 folks who've lived in Idaho who, you know, predate this 785 00:38:55,865 --> 00:38:58,805 and maybe have lived there for many generations, uh, 786 00:38:59,185 --> 00:39:02,485 are are trying to thwart the, 787 00:39:02,575 --> 00:39:04,205 unite the right people there. 788 00:39:04,205 --> 00:39:08,045 There's, um, some neo-Nazis from California coming in there, 789 00:39:08,045 --> 00:39:11,205 there are, right, right, right. 790 00:39:11,425 --> 00:39:15,045 Um, wing Republicans from Orange County, that, that 791 00:39:15,825 --> 00:39:20,205 may not feel uncomfortable throwing their lot in with, 792 00:39:20,275 --> 00:39:21,645 with white supremacists. 793 00:39:22,185 --> 00:39:25,245 And, um, and they, they've moved to the state. 794 00:39:25,385 --> 00:39:27,645 So those that have been there for a while, who, 795 00:39:27,825 --> 00:39:31,805 who feel like this is absolutely awful, uh, 796 00:39:31,905 --> 00:39:34,965 are working really hard to protect their communities. 797 00:39:35,285 --> 00:39:37,885 I have one story just Kate, based on, um, 798 00:39:38,025 --> 00:39:41,085 an example which shows both a tenacity, 799 00:39:41,145 --> 00:39:45,845 but also how, um, how this is really going to be a marathon 800 00:39:45,845 --> 00:39:46,965 and not, not a sprint. 801 00:39:47,385 --> 00:39:48,925 Um, in Bonners County, 802 00:39:49,145 --> 00:39:51,325 or excuse me, in Bonners Ferry in Bonners County, 803 00:39:51,735 --> 00:39:53,445 there were extremists who tried 804 00:39:53,445 --> 00:39:55,445 to take over the school board there, 805 00:39:55,945 --> 00:39:58,045 and they won two of them. 806 00:39:58,265 --> 00:40:00,965 And I think there are five people on the, the school board, 807 00:40:00,965 --> 00:40:02,645 there might be four, but I think there are five. 808 00:40:03,105 --> 00:40:05,085 Uh, two of them were extremists, 809 00:40:05,105 --> 00:40:08,525 and they won by something like five or seven votes. 810 00:40:09,265 --> 00:40:14,175 And so the folks at Bonners Ferry, a conservative, 811 00:40:14,635 --> 00:40:18,615 one of the most conservative places in Idaho, in already one 812 00:40:18,615 --> 00:40:21,895 of the most conservative states, uh, demanded a recount. 813 00:40:22,235 --> 00:40:24,535 And they kicked these guys out of there. 814 00:40:24,915 --> 00:40:26,855 And the, the, the extremists 815 00:40:26,875 --> 00:40:28,775 who had been on the school board wanted 816 00:40:28,775 --> 00:40:29,815 to defund the school. 817 00:40:29,875 --> 00:40:31,455 They'd appointed a superintendent 818 00:40:31,765 --> 00:40:34,215 that had no interest in public education. 819 00:40:34,755 --> 00:40:36,655 And so they had this recount, 820 00:40:36,755 --> 00:40:38,015 and everybody was feeling great. 821 00:40:38,275 --> 00:40:39,655 And then the next election came 822 00:40:39,655 --> 00:40:41,175 and the extremists got on the school board. 823 00:40:41,315 --> 00:40:45,575 So there are, there have been some successes, 824 00:40:45,595 --> 00:40:49,295 and I think the same vote saw a lot of, um, 825 00:40:49,655 --> 00:40:52,655 pushback against, this is the Idaho Freedom Foundation, 826 00:40:53,025 --> 00:40:56,815 which is, which is an ex, they have an extremist agenda. 827 00:40:57,315 --> 00:40:59,695 And, um, I think there was some success on the part 828 00:40:59,695 --> 00:41:00,695 of Takeback Idaho, 829 00:41:00,875 --> 00:41:04,255 but it's going to be a fight that they, they have 830 00:41:04,255 --> 00:41:06,935 to keep fighting, and there has to be a vigilance, 831 00:41:07,085 --> 00:41:10,015 because this is a really tenacious movement. 832 00:41:11,065 --> 00:41:15,215 - Betsy, how do the rich folks who are moving into the west, 833 00:41:15,285 --> 00:41:17,775 into these sort of resort towns that we think of, 834 00:41:17,775 --> 00:41:20,415 like Big Sky, Jackson, sun Valley, how 835 00:41:21,595 --> 00:41:23,735 do they play into any of this, if at all? 836 00:41:23,915 --> 00:41:28,815 Do they, is is there, do they, does that sort 837 00:41:28,815 --> 00:41:31,895 of, I don't know, gentrification if you will, sort of, um, 838 00:41:31,995 --> 00:41:33,645 set off these radical folks? 839 00:41:33,745 --> 00:41:36,165 Or are they in completely different worlds at this point? 840 00:41:38,075 --> 00:41:39,755 - I think it's an interesting question. 841 00:41:39,975 --> 00:41:43,555 It it's, and it's, and it's complicated. I would say. 842 00:41:44,055 --> 00:41:47,035 I'm not sure that rich people moving to places like, um, 843 00:41:47,135 --> 00:41:49,995 the Yellowstone, um, or what is the name of that place? 844 00:41:49,995 --> 00:41:51,395 The Yellowstone Club , 845 00:41:52,495 --> 00:41:54,635 who are the one percenters coming in 846 00:41:54,975 --> 00:41:59,195 and, you know, punching into wilderness impacting habitats, 847 00:41:59,695 --> 00:42:01,435 uh, polluting rivers. 848 00:42:02,865 --> 00:42:06,115 It's a nightmare. And it really does impact 849 00:42:06,495 --> 00:42:07,715 the cost of living. 850 00:42:07,835 --> 00:42:10,115 I mean, for people who cater to them, 851 00:42:10,825 --> 00:42:12,315 there's no places to live. 852 00:42:12,895 --> 00:42:16,115 Um, they're working th two to three jobs, and 853 00:42:16,215 --> 00:42:19,755 and these folks come in, they're there for, you know, 854 00:42:19,975 --> 00:42:22,795 two weeks maybe in the summer, two weeks in the winter. 855 00:42:23,985 --> 00:42:26,795 They, they don't directly impact this. 856 00:42:27,945 --> 00:42:32,605 And yet these ha the Yellowstone Club in, in, um, 857 00:42:32,605 --> 00:42:35,805 particular has become a place for fundraising. 858 00:42:36,145 --> 00:42:40,085 And so you're seeing candidates that are coming in, uh, 859 00:42:40,235 --> 00:42:42,645 that are become, you know, these candidates 860 00:42:42,645 --> 00:42:45,445 that are moving ever more to the right. 861 00:42:45,665 --> 00:42:48,605 So, um, who did we just have, I guess, 862 00:42:48,785 --> 00:42:50,085 who was here this winter? 863 00:42:50,625 --> 00:42:53,125 Um, uh, not God, 864 00:42:53,125 --> 00:42:55,565 that awful guy from Texas, you know who I'm talking about? 865 00:42:55,565 --> 00:42:59,045 There's so many of them. Senator Ted, Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz. 866 00:42:59,505 --> 00:43:01,005 So Ted Cruz. Yeah. 867 00:43:01,345 --> 00:43:02,845 So Ted Cruz is coming in 868 00:43:02,945 --> 00:43:04,445 to fundraise at the Yellowstone Club. 869 00:43:04,545 --> 00:43:07,405 So, yeah, you know, I mean, if you look at it that way, 870 00:43:08,035 --> 00:43:11,765 extremist candidates are benefiting from the one percenters 871 00:43:11,765 --> 00:43:13,285 that are moving into these places. 872 00:43:13,825 --> 00:43:15,165 So that there's that. 873 00:43:15,505 --> 00:43:17,165 But also I think, uh, 874 00:43:17,165 --> 00:43:20,765 because it is so hard for, as these folks move in 875 00:43:20,985 --> 00:43:24,445 and prices increase, it's really hard for people to, 876 00:43:24,745 --> 00:43:25,845 to afford places. 877 00:43:26,265 --> 00:43:29,565 And I'm not sure that that's necessarily creating extremism, 878 00:43:29,825 --> 00:43:34,205 but there is a perception now about places like Bozeman 879 00:43:34,475 --> 00:43:37,645 that we're so, we're so much in a bubble, 880 00:43:37,985 --> 00:43:40,325 and we're so out of touch with the rest of Montana 881 00:43:40,675 --> 00:43:43,085 that when I, as a person from Bozeman, 882 00:43:43,085 --> 00:43:45,285 and I've lived in Montana for 31 years, 883 00:43:46,425 --> 00:43:48,245 and I go out to a rural community, 884 00:43:49,045 --> 00:43:51,645 I don't wanna have a Mon Montana or a, a Bozeman 885 00:43:51,705 --> 00:43:53,365 or Gallatin County license plate, 886 00:43:53,365 --> 00:43:57,765 because I do know that my car there, there's a lot 887 00:43:57,765 --> 00:44:00,445 of resentment against our community. 888 00:44:00,865 --> 00:44:04,605 And so I, I, I've had, um, friends who've gone 889 00:44:04,605 --> 00:44:08,005 to fishing accesses that, that have their tire slashed 890 00:44:08,465 --> 00:44:11,725 and that, and it's not, you know, I get it. 891 00:44:11,925 --> 00:44:14,685 I understand why people think Bozeman's full of shit. 892 00:44:14,845 --> 00:44:16,285 I mean, there's so much there. 893 00:44:16,305 --> 00:44:20,805 We are a, a, a liberal little bubble in Montana, 894 00:44:21,625 --> 00:44:26,365 but I do think it's really imperative that we make even more 895 00:44:26,385 --> 00:44:29,965 of an effort to understand the rest of Montana, 896 00:44:29,965 --> 00:44:31,365 because there are a lot, lot of people 897 00:44:31,365 --> 00:44:32,565 who live in my community 898 00:44:32,785 --> 00:44:37,605 who have no idea about Eastern Montana and rural culture. 899 00:44:38,065 --> 00:44:39,285 And I think that's bad. 900 00:44:39,885 --> 00:44:44,405 I do think that, um, we cannot, if we're going to be a part 901 00:44:44,405 --> 00:44:46,445 of Montana, and we're gonna understand politics, 902 00:44:46,445 --> 00:44:50,205 because we've gone from a purple state since I first moved 903 00:44:50,205 --> 00:44:52,845 here to an ever reddening state. 904 00:44:53,185 --> 00:44:55,965 And if there are folks that live in communities like mine 905 00:44:56,155 --> 00:44:59,765 that aren't making an effort to understand the rest 906 00:44:59,765 --> 00:45:03,245 of Montana, those communities are ever more 907 00:45:03,295 --> 00:45:05,045 vulnerable to extremism. 908 00:45:05,465 --> 00:45:09,485 And it's in part because they resent our community 909 00:45:09,705 --> 00:45:12,485 and our culture, even though we're not all living in 910 00:45:12,505 --> 00:45:13,565 the Yellowstone Club. 911 00:45:13,905 --> 00:45:16,085 But it's, but so Kate, that, that's a, 912 00:45:16,345 --> 00:45:18,925 that's a complicated way of answering your question, 913 00:45:18,945 --> 00:45:22,205 but I would say it does play a role, and it's, and, 914 00:45:22,225 --> 00:45:25,005 and more than anything, I think it's really important 915 00:45:25,145 --> 00:45:27,765 for people in communities like Missoula 916 00:45:28,225 --> 00:45:31,685 and Bozeman to understand that Montana is, 917 00:45:31,985 --> 00:45:35,245 is a lot bigger than Missoula and Bozeman. I, 918 00:45:35,405 --> 00:45:37,045 - I think it's fascinating, first of all, just to know 919 00:45:37,045 --> 00:45:38,205 that when it gets cold in Texas, 920 00:45:38,485 --> 00:45:40,405 Ted Cruz doesn't just go to Cancun. 921 00:45:40,925 --> 00:45:45,845 , I, I wanna ask about what happened 922 00:45:45,945 --> 00:45:49,165 to all of these groups post January 6th. 923 00:45:49,195 --> 00:45:51,765 Obviously, you have Stuart Rhodes in prison 924 00:45:51,985 --> 00:45:53,285 for a very long time. 925 00:45:53,865 --> 00:45:56,485 You have Amon Bundy underground 926 00:45:56,585 --> 00:45:59,205 and owing, uh, tens of millions of dollars 927 00:45:59,505 --> 00:46:01,045 to a hospital system. 928 00:46:01,785 --> 00:46:05,885 So what's happening now in those circles? 929 00:46:06,265 --> 00:46:07,845 Uh, are they regrouping? 930 00:46:08,065 --> 00:46:09,885 Are they humbled 931 00:46:10,065 --> 00:46:12,805 and, uh, acknowledge the error of their ways now that 932 00:46:12,805 --> 00:46:14,485 so many of them are in prison? 933 00:46:14,595 --> 00:46:16,445 What, what's the, the state of play, 934 00:46:16,485 --> 00:46:20,845 particularly heading into, uh, another election year 935 00:46:21,215 --> 00:46:23,965 where Donald Trump, uh, surely is going 936 00:46:23,965 --> 00:46:26,765 to once again claim any election is stolen 937 00:46:26,985 --> 00:46:28,005 if he does not win? 938 00:46:28,955 --> 00:46:33,845 - Okay, so I'm gonna preface this as, um, the, I I, 939 00:46:34,165 --> 00:46:36,485 I am working now on a completely different 940 00:46:36,485 --> 00:46:37,885 thing for my new book. 941 00:46:38,745 --> 00:46:43,445 So I haven't been following them as vigilantly as I do, um, 942 00:46:43,505 --> 00:46:44,565 or I have in the past. 943 00:46:44,995 --> 00:46:48,565 However, I have a couple of, um, sort of observations. 944 00:46:48,905 --> 00:46:52,925 Number one, the oath keepers seems to have disintegrated. 945 00:46:53,525 --> 00:46:55,805 I don't, I, I, and, and that said, there might be people 946 00:46:55,805 --> 00:46:58,365 who are going to rise from the ashes because that happens. 947 00:46:59,025 --> 00:47:01,325 Um, but, but the Oath Keepers doesn't seem 948 00:47:01,325 --> 00:47:02,765 to be very viable right now. 949 00:47:03,065 --> 00:47:06,645 The Proud Boys, I think is still, it, it still has, 950 00:47:06,905 --> 00:47:08,445 um, um, some structure. 951 00:47:08,905 --> 00:47:10,525 Um, I think that's still a threat. 952 00:47:11,225 --> 00:47:13,045 My feeling now, 953 00:47:13,785 --> 00:47:17,005 I'm less worried about militias than I am about how 954 00:47:17,735 --> 00:47:20,325 mainstream their missions have become. 955 00:47:20,705 --> 00:47:25,085 So I'm seeing evangelicals taking up these, 956 00:47:25,695 --> 00:47:28,605 these kind of issues as a way to, 957 00:47:29,625 --> 00:47:31,845 to fight the good fight for God. 958 00:47:32,245 --> 00:47:36,445 I see the, um, these arm, I, I actually see this as, 959 00:47:37,405 --> 00:47:38,525 I think that we are going 960 00:47:38,525 --> 00:47:42,885 to see if Donald Trump loses the same amount of, 961 00:47:43,105 --> 00:47:44,165 of uprising. 962 00:47:44,185 --> 00:47:46,365 And it's not going to be from militias, 963 00:47:46,635 --> 00:47:47,925 it's gonna be from folks 964 00:47:48,385 --> 00:47:51,725 who are radicalized evangelicals who've decided 965 00:47:51,755 --> 00:47:56,245 that this is their chance to fight for God's guy, uh, Trump. 966 00:47:56,825 --> 00:48:00,525 And, um, and so I'm, I'm worried about feeling that. 967 00:48:00,745 --> 00:48:04,965 Um, but I, I don't think the militias being intact is, uh, 968 00:48:05,115 --> 00:48:06,885 necessary at this point, uh, 969 00:48:06,885 --> 00:48:10,725 because I think that it's become so mainstream, in part 970 00:48:10,725 --> 00:48:14,645 because Trump did do hi during his debate, you know, 971 00:48:14,775 --> 00:48:19,045 stand back and stand by to, to the, to the, uh, proud boys. 972 00:48:19,265 --> 00:48:21,605 And he does actively, you know, 973 00:48:22,945 --> 00:48:25,765 and I, it's not even a dog whistle at this point. No, 974 00:48:26,075 --> 00:48:27,165 - It's explicit. Sure. 975 00:48:27,725 --> 00:48:30,765 - Explicit. I mean, he will, he will do a call to arms, 976 00:48:31,025 --> 00:48:35,085 and there are any number of, of folks that have guns 977 00:48:35,465 --> 00:48:38,965 and will look for an occasion to, to fight for him. 978 00:48:39,185 --> 00:48:43,205 So, um, so again, not having followed it as closely 979 00:48:43,545 --> 00:48:45,485 as I have, that's my hunch. 980 00:48:46,255 --> 00:48:48,195 - That's so interesting you bring that up, Betsy. 981 00:48:48,315 --> 00:48:51,835 'cause I was gonna ask you about that sort of, um, 982 00:48:53,125 --> 00:48:55,755 sense that these groups have faded a little bit in the past 983 00:48:55,755 --> 00:48:58,355 couple of years, and how that that's not 984 00:48:58,355 --> 00:49:00,755 what we normally see under a Democratic president. 985 00:49:00,755 --> 00:49:05,195 We usually see more, um, more discontent 986 00:49:05,255 --> 00:49:06,715 and organizing on the right. 987 00:49:07,255 --> 00:49:08,395 Um, but, 988 00:49:08,775 --> 00:49:10,555 but I think that you're spot on in saying 989 00:49:10,555 --> 00:49:11,715 that it's probably just 990 00:49:11,915 --> 00:49:12,915 'cause the, the, 991 00:49:13,175 --> 00:49:15,915 the mainstream politicians on the right have fully embraced 992 00:49:16,365 --> 00:49:18,275 their, a lot of these causes now, 993 00:49:18,335 --> 00:49:21,075 and it's just sort of, they're not feeling 994 00:49:21,105 --> 00:49:22,155 voiceless, I guess. 995 00:49:22,985 --> 00:49:25,915 - Yeah, yeah. I I, I, I hate to say that, 996 00:49:26,135 --> 00:49:30,315 but I'm not sure these groups are really necessary at that, 997 00:49:30,615 --> 00:49:34,155 at this point, to, in order to, to continue 998 00:49:34,155 --> 00:49:39,035 to promote these, these very dangerous, uh, ideas and, 999 00:49:39,335 --> 00:49:41,075 and this kind of militancy 1000 00:49:41,655 --> 00:49:46,355 and these, these deep right wing ideas. 1001 00:49:47,935 --> 00:49:51,835 - So I have a question to sort of selfishly bring it back 1002 00:49:51,835 --> 00:49:53,755 around to public lands, but this is a legitimate question 1003 00:49:53,755 --> 00:49:57,435 that I, that I wanna ask, which is that, you know, we see, 1004 00:49:57,705 --> 00:50:00,275 like I live in Utah and our state legislature just wrapped 1005 00:50:00,335 --> 00:50:01,915 and they pushed a ton 1006 00:50:01,915 --> 00:50:05,355 of dismal legislation about trans bathroom things. 1007 00:50:05,575 --> 00:50:09,475 And every single, like, you know, banning abortion again 1008 00:50:09,575 --> 00:50:13,075 and all of the things that are kind of top of the 1009 00:50:13,635 --> 00:50:16,755 priority list for these culture war, um, legislators. 1010 00:50:17,495 --> 00:50:20,875 And, but what we didn't see much action on the public lands 1011 00:50:20,875 --> 00:50:25,835 front, it, it feels like public lands are not at least a, 1012 00:50:26,435 --> 00:50:30,405 a, a, a policy bottle, uh, battleground, um, 1013 00:50:30,865 --> 00:50:33,085 or at least are not maybe at the top of the agenda 1014 00:50:33,185 --> 00:50:35,325 for these sort of evangelical right wingers. 1015 00:50:36,035 --> 00:50:37,205 What do you think about that? 1016 00:50:37,505 --> 00:50:39,085 Do you, are we missing something? 1017 00:50:39,145 --> 00:50:41,405 Do you think that there, that there's a chance 1018 00:50:41,405 --> 00:50:44,725 that they might rope our public lands back in, in a big way? 1019 00:50:44,945 --> 00:50:46,685 Or, or, um, 1020 00:50:46,865 --> 00:50:50,005 are they focused on more religious, you know, issues? 1021 00:50:50,945 --> 00:50:52,005 - Oh my gosh. Okay. 1022 00:50:52,105 --> 00:50:55,445 So my thought is, and because I'm not in Utah, 1023 00:50:55,445 --> 00:50:57,205 but I certainly know what you're talking about, 1024 00:50:57,745 --> 00:50:59,885 my thought is, is that they're working right now 1025 00:51:00,025 --> 00:51:01,205 on hot button issues. 1026 00:51:01,205 --> 00:51:03,245 They, they're speaking to their constituency. 1027 00:51:03,245 --> 00:51:05,125 So right now, trans bathrooms 1028 00:51:05,705 --> 00:51:08,205 are more important than public lands. 1029 00:51:08,425 --> 00:51:11,485 And, uh, and yet I don't think it's the end of it. 1030 00:51:11,605 --> 00:51:14,005 I mean, once public lands become important again, 1031 00:51:14,295 --> 00:51:17,125 we'll be right back to at public lands 1032 00:51:17,125 --> 00:51:19,925 and attacking public, um, you know, as essentially, 1033 00:51:20,025 --> 00:51:23,725 you know, pushing, uh, extraction on public lands or, 1034 00:51:23,865 --> 00:51:28,445 or, you know, eroding, uh, regulations that, that, um, are, 1035 00:51:28,505 --> 00:51:30,565 are, are part of public lands management. 1036 00:51:30,905 --> 00:51:35,365 But it, it's really interesting to see how 1037 00:51:37,015 --> 00:51:41,705 they jockey, uh, uh, to, to, to, um, you know, 1038 00:51:41,975 --> 00:51:45,225 galvanize or, or, or engage their, their constituencies 1039 00:51:45,645 --> 00:51:49,265 and trans issues right now are, are such, I mean, 1040 00:51:49,265 --> 00:51:52,145 that was one of the biggest things in our state legislature. 1041 00:51:52,975 --> 00:51:53,985 When did that happen? 1042 00:51:54,385 --> 00:51:56,985 I, I, it, I mean, it, it just, it, it, it's, you know, 1043 00:51:57,015 --> 00:52:00,785 it's basically what can we do to raise money 1044 00:52:01,085 --> 00:52:04,585 to make people become outraged, to scare them? 1045 00:52:05,205 --> 00:52:08,225 Uh, and right now it's trans, um, 1046 00:52:08,665 --> 00:52:10,785 athletes in women's sports. 1047 00:52:11,065 --> 00:52:12,825 I mean, it just, but, but it's, it's, 1048 00:52:12,965 --> 00:52:14,865 and that's the issue of, of the day. 1049 00:52:15,405 --> 00:52:18,905 Um, so no, we, we have not seen the end 1050 00:52:18,925 --> 00:52:20,585 of attacks on public lands. 1051 00:52:20,645 --> 00:52:24,985 It just isn't in vogue right now for, um, 1052 00:52:25,435 --> 00:52:26,985 right wing culture. 1053 00:52:28,505 --> 00:52:32,305 - I, I wanna wrap on a, maybe a, a less 1054 00:52:33,105 --> 00:52:34,105 bleak note. 1055 00:52:34,425 --> 00:52:38,745 'cause you, you do end your book on a somewhat hopeful note. 1056 00:52:39,565 --> 00:52:43,865 Do you, do you have some real hope that the, the extremism 1057 00:52:43,865 --> 00:52:46,625 that we are seeing here in the west can dissipate 1058 00:52:46,625 --> 00:52:49,465 or that there can be some reconciliation? 1059 00:52:49,485 --> 00:52:51,265 And what, what would that path look like? 1060 00:52:53,875 --> 00:52:56,495 - Oh my gosh. Okay. So we got our work cut out for us. 1061 00:52:56,765 --> 00:52:57,815 It's not gonna be easy. 1062 00:52:58,355 --> 00:52:59,535 And, um, and, 1063 00:53:00,195 --> 00:53:05,135 and yet I ended this book feeling far more 1064 00:53:05,135 --> 00:53:07,855 hopeful, uh, than I did when I began it 1065 00:53:07,855 --> 00:53:08,855 because I, you know, 1066 00:53:08,895 --> 00:53:11,655 I started out when we were all just kind 1067 00:53:11,655 --> 00:53:14,175 of siloed in our houses, sheltering in place. 1068 00:53:14,595 --> 00:53:17,295 We were getting versions of each other over social media. 1069 00:53:17,325 --> 00:53:19,135 Everybody was super mean. 1070 00:53:19,955 --> 00:53:24,575 And, and so I, I felt pretty bleak. And I also felt mad. 1071 00:53:24,775 --> 00:53:28,125 I mean, mean, I, I I started out feeling just as angry 1072 00:53:28,225 --> 00:53:31,365 as everybody else, you know, oh, this misinformation, 1073 00:53:31,365 --> 00:53:33,525 this disinformation, what a bunch of idiots. 1074 00:53:34,385 --> 00:53:37,045 And when I started to go out in these communities 1075 00:53:37,105 --> 00:53:40,365 and talk to people, and again, I I said it earlier, 1076 00:53:40,825 --> 00:53:42,805 not everybody, you don't wanna talk 1077 00:53:43,265 --> 00:53:46,285 to these extreme Christian nationalists that, and 1078 00:53:46,285 --> 00:53:50,645 because they are so intent on taking over places, and they, 1079 00:53:50,745 --> 00:53:52,205 and they have othered people. 1080 00:53:52,385 --> 00:53:54,725 And that's what scares me is this othering. 1081 00:53:55,025 --> 00:53:57,245 And if we play into othering and, 1082 00:53:57,265 --> 00:54:01,445 and by we, I, I'm, I'm talking about me as somebody who is 1083 00:54:02,085 --> 00:54:05,325 a liberal with a PhD and, and, um, 1084 00:54:05,665 --> 00:54:09,765 and you know, the, I mean, I, I'm sure I'm viewed as, um, 1085 00:54:10,065 --> 00:54:12,925 an elitist, uh, you know, sort of, I, I, 1086 00:54:13,255 --> 00:54:15,485 maybe I'm condescending, maybe you know, these things 1087 00:54:15,485 --> 00:54:19,965 that I tried very hard to, to not be, um, 1088 00:54:20,235 --> 00:54:21,805 when I, when I went into these 1089 00:54:21,805 --> 00:54:23,085 communities to talk to people. 1090 00:54:23,225 --> 00:54:25,325 And so, uh, you know, both, and, 1091 00:54:25,325 --> 00:54:27,245 and I, I'm not gonna both sides us 1092 00:54:27,245 --> 00:54:30,445 because there is a real threat from right wing 1093 00:54:30,795 --> 00:54:32,245 extremism left. 1094 00:54:32,245 --> 00:54:34,005 There is some left wing extremism, 1095 00:54:34,025 --> 00:54:38,245 but it is like, it's absolutely eclipsed by the right wing. 1096 00:54:38,715 --> 00:54:43,485 However, I do think that folks like me need 1097 00:54:43,505 --> 00:54:47,765 to be a little less on their high horse, um, uh, and, 1098 00:54:47,985 --> 00:54:51,565 and to be willing to, um, talk to folks that, 1099 00:54:51,565 --> 00:54:53,965 that may be coming from different points of view. 1100 00:54:54,345 --> 00:54:55,885 And, and I'll be honest with you, 1101 00:54:56,165 --> 00:54:58,045 I actually had a really good time. 1102 00:54:58,445 --> 00:55:00,445 I, I, I talked to a lot of people 1103 00:55:00,745 --> 00:55:03,485 who did have very different ideas than I did. 1104 00:55:03,565 --> 00:55:05,365 I, I mean, one of the conversations I had, 1105 00:55:05,455 --> 00:55:09,285 which I thought was really interesting, was some, uh, 1106 00:55:09,425 --> 00:55:12,445 one rancher and a guy who owned a hotel, um, 1107 00:55:12,665 --> 00:55:15,205 who were talking about LaVoy Finicum, you know, 1108 00:55:15,355 --> 00:55:16,525 resisting arrest. 1109 00:55:17,145 --> 00:55:21,045 And I said, not only did he not I, I mean I, sorry, 1110 00:55:21,155 --> 00:55:22,685 they didn't think he resisted 1111 00:55:22,825 --> 00:55:24,565 arrest, let me start that again. 1112 00:55:25,125 --> 00:55:26,765 I talked to , I talked 1113 00:55:26,765 --> 00:55:28,445 to a rancher in Eastern Montana 1114 00:55:28,545 --> 00:55:32,005 and a guy who owns the longest continuing operating hotel 1115 00:55:32,005 --> 00:55:33,525 there, and they had talked about 1116 00:55:33,665 --> 00:55:35,885 George Floyd resisting arrest. 1117 00:55:36,265 --> 00:55:40,005 And I said, not only did he not resist arrest, you know, 1118 00:55:40,005 --> 00:55:41,525 your guy LaVoy did. 1119 00:55:41,585 --> 00:55:42,965 And, and they, they had, 1120 00:55:43,665 --> 00:55:46,765 and it's not like they were big supporters of LaVoy Finicum, 1121 00:55:46,765 --> 00:55:48,685 but they had kind of, they'd heard about, 1122 00:55:48,985 --> 00:55:50,485 um, the mal here events. 1123 00:55:50,485 --> 00:55:52,485 They'd heard that LaVoy had been shot. 1124 00:55:52,715 --> 00:55:55,525 There'd been some state troopers from Oregon 1125 00:55:55,705 --> 00:55:58,165 who had stayed at the hotel who had said, you know, we 1126 00:55:58,775 --> 00:55:59,965 LaVoy didn't have to die. 1127 00:56:00,105 --> 00:56:01,125 And I was like, guys, 1128 00:56:01,585 --> 00:56:04,885 he was pulling a gun from his pocket screaming, shoot me, 1129 00:56:04,895 --> 00:56:06,005 shoot me, shoot me. 1130 00:56:06,345 --> 00:56:10,125 And, and, but just to be at this table drinking coffee 1131 00:56:10,275 --> 00:56:13,645 with these guys, it was really good. 1132 00:56:14,325 --> 00:56:16,725 I mean, we had, it was really good to be able 1133 00:56:16,725 --> 00:56:19,005 to talk about climate change with them, to be able 1134 00:56:19,005 --> 00:56:21,485 to talk about police with them, to be able 1135 00:56:21,485 --> 00:56:23,805 to talk about Black Lives matter with them and, 1136 00:56:23,865 --> 00:56:26,125 and to do it in a way that was face-to-face, 1137 00:56:26,135 --> 00:56:28,685 where we could all say how we were feeling. 1138 00:56:29,185 --> 00:56:32,165 And I think, I mean, we didn't change our mind that day. 1139 00:56:32,195 --> 00:56:33,565 It's not like we all walked away 1140 00:56:33,565 --> 00:56:34,605 and said, boy, you know, I 1141 00:56:34,605 --> 00:56:35,725 really have a different point of view. 1142 00:56:35,945 --> 00:56:39,965 But what we had is the beginning of a relationship. 1143 00:56:40,385 --> 00:56:44,525 And one of the guys I've continued to keep in touch with, 1144 00:56:45,105 --> 00:56:47,125 and I've now visited him three times, 1145 00:56:47,665 --> 00:56:50,725 and he was the one who told me, if I hadn't met you, 1146 00:56:50,845 --> 00:56:51,965 I would've been afraid of you. 1147 00:56:52,265 --> 00:56:55,645 And that is exactly the agenda that some of these 1148 00:56:56,175 --> 00:56:57,805 folks are trying to create. 1149 00:56:58,125 --> 00:57:00,885 I mean, Trump wants us to be afraid of people 1150 00:57:00,885 --> 00:57:03,005 that don't agree with him, um, 1151 00:57:03,105 --> 00:57:05,205 and to hate people that don't agree with him. 1152 00:57:05,625 --> 00:57:07,245 And we gotta get around that. 1153 00:57:07,505 --> 00:57:11,245 Or we are gonna be in a position where, where, I mean, 1154 00:57:11,285 --> 00:57:15,765 othering happens fast and it leads to violence fast, and, 1155 00:57:15,945 --> 00:57:18,365 and it's something that there's, I mean, 1156 00:57:18,825 --> 00:57:20,605 I'm not even gonna say there's real potential. 1157 00:57:20,655 --> 00:57:22,805 We've seen it at the Pulse nightclub, 1158 00:57:22,895 --> 00:57:25,205 we've seen it at the Walmart in El Paso, 1159 00:57:25,415 --> 00:57:27,285 we've seen it at the grocery store in Buffalo. 1160 00:57:27,995 --> 00:57:31,405 This is something that could happen more. And, and it does. 1161 00:57:31,505 --> 00:57:33,925 I'm not, I don't even know why I could say I say could. 1162 00:57:34,425 --> 00:57:36,685 It is happening more and more often, 1163 00:57:37,185 --> 00:57:41,445 and that's why we cannot let this campaign of othering 1164 00:57:41,955 --> 00:57:44,245 stop us from being in relationship with each other, 1165 00:57:44,245 --> 00:57:46,405 because it's incredibly intentional 1166 00:57:46,665 --> 00:57:48,525 and it's so easy to fall into. 1167 00:57:48,715 --> 00:57:52,045 It's so easy to be mad and to be unwilling to talk to folks 1168 00:57:52,045 --> 00:57:55,965 because there are so much gross stuff happening right now, 1169 00:57:55,995 --> 00:57:57,725 just like you're talking about, you know, 1170 00:57:57,785 --> 00:58:00,525 why are we focusing on transgender bathrooms? 1171 00:58:00,645 --> 00:58:03,645 I mean, these are wonderful people who are trying to, 1172 00:58:04,185 --> 00:58:06,085 to just survive in our world, 1173 00:58:06,225 --> 00:58:08,765 and we're, we're focusing on transgender people. 1174 00:58:09,075 --> 00:58:10,325 What is going on here? 1175 00:58:10,425 --> 00:58:13,445 And, and why are these campaigns finding such success? 1176 00:58:14,825 --> 00:58:19,165 In part, it's because we're letting them have the narrative 1177 00:58:19,665 --> 00:58:21,565 and we need to take it back. 1178 00:58:22,565 --> 00:58:25,965 - Hmm. Well, I know that we could talk about this for hours 1179 00:58:25,995 --> 00:58:29,605 because it's a very, um, 1180 00:58:30,835 --> 00:58:33,365 complicated issue, but also it seems obvious. 1181 00:58:33,555 --> 00:58:36,525 It's just how do you get people who don't see eye 1182 00:58:36,525 --> 00:58:38,125 to eye politically to actually get together 1183 00:58:38,305 --> 00:58:40,685 and have coffee if you're not writing a book about them? 1184 00:58:41,105 --> 00:58:42,725 Um, So I, 1185 00:58:42,885 --> 00:58:45,085 I have a similar experience in working in rural Utah. 1186 00:58:45,165 --> 00:58:46,245 I got to sit down 1187 00:58:46,245 --> 00:58:47,765 and talk to a lot of people I didn't agree with 1188 00:58:47,765 --> 00:58:49,725 and got to even, um, to the point 1189 00:58:49,725 --> 00:58:51,125 where I called some of them my friends. 1190 00:58:51,425 --> 00:58:54,765 But, um, normal people don't often have those opportunities 1191 00:58:54,865 --> 00:58:55,885 in their day-to-Day lives. 1192 00:58:56,105 --> 00:58:58,125 So, um, I hope that that's 1193 00:58:58,125 --> 00:58:59,485 what your next book is about, 1194 00:58:59,795 --> 00:59:02,005 - Well, I I'm hoping that we can scale it. 1195 00:59:02,145 --> 00:59:05,365 I'm talking to Tory House Press about figuring out, I mean, 1196 00:59:05,385 --> 00:59:08,885 as we see our institutions, um, sort of collapse 1197 00:59:08,905 --> 00:59:12,205 as we still see small town newspapers collapse, 1198 00:59:12,375 --> 00:59:14,805 we're we're having fewer and fewer opportunities. 1199 00:59:15,115 --> 00:59:16,765 Yeah. So I, I'm really hoping 1200 00:59:16,835 --> 00:59:19,125 that we can scale some of these conversations. 1201 00:59:19,725 --> 00:59:21,605 I, I do know that there are groups that, 1202 00:59:21,635 --> 00:59:22,685 that do work on this. 1203 00:59:22,685 --> 00:59:25,325 There's, um, I I 1204 00:59:25,325 --> 00:59:29,125 and I, I, I am not articulate enough, um, at this point 1205 00:59:29,145 --> 00:59:30,565 to talk about specific groups, 1206 00:59:30,705 --> 00:59:33,885 but I, I do know that there are, um, 1207 00:59:34,315 --> 00:59:35,885 efforts along these lines, 1208 00:59:35,985 --> 00:59:38,325 and that's something that I'm really, really, um, 1209 00:59:38,325 --> 00:59:41,365 interested in, in working on with universities, 1210 00:59:41,435 --> 00:59:44,005 with different nonprofit organizations, um, 1211 00:59:44,075 --> 00:59:46,685 with Community Town Hall get togethers. 1212 00:59:47,265 --> 00:59:50,045 And, um, because we, we got out of practice and, 1213 00:59:50,065 --> 00:59:51,205 and, you know, our, our kids 1214 00:59:51,205 --> 00:59:52,565 weren't playing sports together. 1215 00:59:52,825 --> 00:59:54,645 We weren't going to PTA meetings together. 1216 00:59:54,705 --> 00:59:56,605 We weren't doing things that we, 1217 00:59:57,025 --> 01:00:00,605 we normally did having book clubs together, um, that, 1218 01:00:00,605 --> 01:00:02,285 that we would perhaps be with people 1219 01:00:02,285 --> 01:00:03,445 with different points of view. 1220 01:00:03,945 --> 01:00:06,685 And I, I think that a lot of us have decided 1221 01:00:06,705 --> 01:00:08,005 to dig in our heels and, 1222 01:00:08,005 --> 01:00:09,885 and not continue with those kind of, 1223 01:00:10,185 --> 01:00:12,045 um, you know, opportunities. 1224 01:00:12,265 --> 01:00:14,325 And we have to figure out ways to do it. 1225 01:00:14,325 --> 01:00:16,525 We have to organize and consider it 1226 01:00:16,665 --> 01:00:18,165 and look at community resiliency. 1227 01:00:18,845 --> 01:00:20,525 I do think it's possible community 1228 01:00:20,545 --> 01:00:24,885 by community if there are people willing to really consider 1229 01:00:25,145 --> 01:00:26,285 how they can make that work. 1230 01:00:26,385 --> 01:00:29,405 And I actually think libraries are a great place to, um, 1231 01:00:29,405 --> 01:00:31,765 think about these things and universities are a great place 1232 01:00:31,765 --> 01:00:33,965 to think about these things, and bookstores are a great 1233 01:00:33,965 --> 01:00:36,365 thing, way to or place to think about these things. 1234 01:00:37,055 --> 01:00:38,745 - Awesome. Well, we'll leave it there. 1235 01:00:39,195 --> 01:00:41,825 Betsy Gaines Kwaman, author of American Zion 1236 01:00:41,965 --> 01:00:44,585 and True West, thank you so much for joining us today. 1237 01:00:45,065 --> 01:00:46,945 - I really, really appreciate the opportunity. 1238 01:00:47,055 --> 01:00:49,025 It's been fun to be in conversation with you guys. 1239 01:00:54,135 --> 01:00:56,115 - Here's a little good news to close us out. 1240 01:00:56,635 --> 01:00:59,435 California's Yurok tribe will be the first native people 1241 01:00:59,535 --> 01:01:02,195 to manage tribal land with the National Park Service. 1242 01:01:02,685 --> 01:01:04,875 Under a historic memorandum of understanding, 1243 01:01:05,235 --> 01:01:09,155 starting in 2026, the tribe will have ownership of 125 acres 1244 01:01:09,155 --> 01:01:10,555 that will serve as a new gateway 1245 01:01:10,575 --> 01:01:12,795 to Redwood National and state parks. 1246 01:01:13,455 --> 01:01:15,875 The land is called Ooo, in the Yurok language, 1247 01:01:15,895 --> 01:01:18,315 and was stolen from the Yurok tribe during the gold rush 1248 01:01:18,335 --> 01:01:21,235 of the mid 18 hundreds, along with 90% 1249 01:01:21,235 --> 01:01:22,275 of the tribe's territory. 1250 01:01:23,015 --> 01:01:25,515 The tribe plans to construct a traditional Yurok village 1251 01:01:25,535 --> 01:01:26,595 of Redwood plank houses 1252 01:01:26,935 --> 01:01:29,755 and a sweat house, a new visitor center displaying Yurok 1253 01:01:29,825 --> 01:01:33,155 artifacts and over a mile of new trails that will connect 1254 01:01:33,155 --> 01:01:35,595 to existing trail systems in the adjacent parks. 1255 01:01:36,315 --> 01:01:38,755 - I am really excited to see all of that when it gets built. 1256 01:01:38,865 --> 01:01:43,315 It's long past due that tribes, uh, have co-management 1257 01:01:43,315 --> 01:01:45,835 and co stewardship, uh, on our national public lands. 1258 01:01:45,835 --> 01:01:46,995 It's, it's really great to see. 1259 01:01:56,975 --> 01:01:59,315 All right, well that is it for today, folks. 1260 01:01:59,455 --> 01:02:02,275 Uh, as always, feel free to reach out with your Thoughts 1261 01:02:02,335 --> 01:02:05,555 and Comments podcast@westernpriorities.org. 1262 01:02:05,975 --> 01:02:09,275 Uh, and as Kate mentioned earlier, go check out that pod. 1263 01:02:10,055 --> 01:02:12,675 And as Kate mentioned earlier, uh, go check out that Road 1264 01:02:12,675 --> 01:02:15,595 to 30 postcard video, uh, from Chuck Wall. 1265 01:02:15,695 --> 01:02:18,715 It really is a really spectacular piece of work. The team 1266 01:02:18,715 --> 01:02:20,150 - Did a great job with it. 1267 01:02:20,865 --> 01:02:23,765 - Thanks again to Betsy for joining us today, and thank you. 1268 01:02:23,825 --> 01:02:25,285 For listening to the landscape.