-
- Welcome to the Landscape, your show about America's parks
and public lands.
I'm Erin Weiss with the Center
for Western Priorities in Denver.
We've made it through second false spring.
Maybe this is the real one now.
Uh, we can hope as we head into April.
- And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City.
Today on the podcast, we're talking
to author Betsy Gaines Kwaman.
Betsy has written two books about public lands in the West
and is one of the foremost experts on
public lands extremism.
We're super excited to share that conversation with you.
But first, some news.
- The Bureau of Land Management released its final methane
waste rule this week, bringing years of legal
and administrative wrangling to a close.
We hope. Methane, of course, is a powerful greenhouse gas.
It's the main component of natural gas.
It's often produced as a byproduct of oil production
and fracking, since it is so much cheaper than oil
companies sometimes waste it by either burning it off
or releasing it straight into the air, rather than trying
to capture and sell it.
Well. This new BLM rule requires companies to
reimburse taxpayers when they waste methane paying royalties
when that methane is vented or flared.
The new rule also requires companies
that drill on federal land to take steps
to reduce their meth methane waste by limiting their venting
and flaring and fixing leaks on the front end.
Now, this BLM rule really compliments a nationwide rule from
the Environmental Protection Agency
that was released in December,
also aimed at reducing methane waste across the entire
oil and gas sector.
Now, just a quick flag.
We are expecting a very busy month ahead
for public land management.
BLM needs to roll out a bunch of stuff
that we've already talked about on this podcast, oil
and gas rules, conservation, restoration leasing.
Uh, they just finalized another rule today about
broadband infrastructure.
We are, of course, keeping track of all of this.
We will wrap it up for you sometime within the next month,
because honestly, there is so much happening right now.
Even I have trouble, uh, keeping track of it.
Also, a quick note that if you are heading to the Society
of Environmental Journalists Conference in Philadelphia next
week, track us down.
Kate and I are both going to be there ready
to talk about all of these upcoming rules.
So we'd love to grab coffee and give you the rundown.
- Also, we've got a new video out in our Road
to 30 postcard series.
This one is about the proposed Chuck Walla National Monument
in Southern California.
The proposal would protect approximately 600,000 acres just
south of Joshua Tree National Park,
and is named for the Chuck Walla Lizard, one
of the species found in the region.
Establishing the monument would help ensure more equitable
access to nature for local communities
and safeguard biodiversity, wildlife habitat
and wildlife migration corridors.
We spoke to three community leaders about the proposed
monument in the video, which you can find
linked in the show notes.
Our guest today is author Betsy Gaines Kwaman.
Betsy has written two books about public
lands extremism in the West.
Her first American Zion looks at the connection
between Mormonism and Extremism.
Her second book, which came out last year,
digs into the myths that define the West.
Betsy, thanks so much for being with us today.
- I am so glad to be here, Kate
and Erin, it's just a, a delight,
so thank you for having me.
- Awesome. Well, we are very excited to have you here.
Your name comes up a lot in our meetings,
and we were like, finally, we said, wow,
we should really just call her up .
Um, so tell me how you first became interested in this topic
of public land extremism. Well,
- It's kind of weird.
So I started out in conservation.
My master's degree is in conservation policy from Montana
State University, actually, environmental studies.
Um, but I learned all the great acronyms back there, nepa,
flipma, um, all the things,
and became really, really interested in public lands
and public land law and the way
that public lands were being managed.
My heart is in conservation, uh, wildlife, you know,
public lands as, as we've mentioned.
And, um, and I really felt like, uh, we were
as conservationists, uh, preaching to the converted
and we weren't building broader coalitions.
And I thought that that was really important to think about.
So I became very interested in how
various cultures see landscape
and in particular religious ways of seeing landscapes.
So I began working in Mongolia with, um,
Mongolian monks who were interested in protecting
rivers and fisheries.
I worked with, uh, mon,
or excuse me, Bhutanese monks, um, on
snow leopard conservation.
Again, looking at how they viewed landscape
and wildlife as sin sentient beings as sacred.
Uh, and that was a very easy group of folks
to, to work with.
And, and it was, it was fun.
They, they had a great interest in conservation biology
and in, um, you know, really seeing landscape as, as a very,
very important and, and rivers
and wildlife as important things to,
to protect and take care of.
I came back and decided that I wanted to do a dissertation.
And, uh, initially I thought about, well, I'll,
I'll do something in Mongolia or Bhutan,
but I couldn't read primary texts.
It would've taken me 10 years to get up to speed on that.
So I thought, well, what can I do in my own backyard
that it sort of takes on religious ways of seeing landscape?
And lo
and behold, I decided to look at Latter Day Saints theology
and began to look at early Mormon settlement.
Um, and they had a very different way
of looking at landscape.
There were, there were sort of shades
of Joseph Smith talking about the importance of utilization
and building the city of Zion to please the eye of God.
So it was the idea
of building landscape rather than keeping it, uh,
intact as is.
But also Brigham Young had, uh, real sort of environmental,
um, foresight and,
and talked about keeping places protected.
So it, the, the Mormon culture
has different ways of seeing landscape,
but when I started to look about, uh, look at public lands
and the Sagebrush Rebellion
and the Bundy family in particular,
they really were embracing these early church ways of seeing
land as a place that needed to be built, utilized, uh, and,
and, um, and altered in order to,
to become sacred.
- And, and that brings us to your first, first book,
which was American Zion.
It focuses on the Bundy family.
Uh, a lot of folks are obviously familiar with
the first and second Bundy,
standoffs Bunkerville in Nevada at Clive Ands Ranch was, uh,
well, 10 years ago.
Uh, what a lot of folks don't realize is there is that
theological connection.
Uh, what was that like visiting the,
the Bundys at their ranch and exploring that with them?
- So, American Zion is a version of my dissertation,
which I very much hope isn't as boring
as my actual dissertation was .
I wouldn't wish reading that on anyone.
Um, but, uh, yeah, I went and visited the Bundys a year
after what is known as the Battle of Bunkerville.
And so at 10 year anniversary, uh, of this standoff,
when Cliven pulled in, uh,
militia groups from all over the country to, um,
standoff against law enforcement
and BLM, uh, who were working to confiscate his cows
that were in trespass,
he hadn't paid grazing fees in 20 years.
He'd had a number of fines stack up.
He owed over a million dollars.
And so the government after this had been in the courts
for years and years and years and years.
Finally, um, a judge issued a confiscation order, and, uh,
and as a result, this became a big galvanizing event
in, um, you know, sort of modern militia culture.
I went to talk to, uh, Clive and a year before Ryan
and Amman went
and did the takeover of the Malhere Wildlife Refuge.
So this was in 2015.
And, uh, and I went to talk
to him specifically about his religious points of view
and why he believes that his
religious war, which this is something,
this is his language, uh, is very much justified
by early church doctrine.
He, he talks about the Constitution as a sacred document.
He says it's divinely inspired,
and this is, I'm quoting him here,
which basically means j Jesus wrote the Constitution.
He, uh, talks about this importance of, um, and,
and this is kind of apocryphal, this, this idea of the,
the White Horse prophecy.
Uh, it's not really, um, certain
that Joseph Smith said this,
but essentially there was this idea
that when the Constitution is hanging by a thread, uh,
Mormon heroes will come to its rescue,
and that's something that motivates him.
And the other thing that I think is really interesting is
that when Clive and talked about, uh, his, um,
you know, entitlement to the land,
he talked about a hypothetical ancestor,
and he talked about that ancestor coming
and the horse drinks in the Virgin River
and creates a quote unquote beneficial use.
And again, that starts to tie into water law,
but it also, to me, was very evident in this telling
of the story that his history begins
with the first Mormon settler the day before.
It was a Southern Paiute river.
So the, the history really begins
with white settlement rather than understanding that this is
indigenous land that, that he, um, he is living on.
- So you sort of got into this next question I wanted
to ask, which is to describe the connection
between the LDS religion and Public Lands extremism
and the Sagebrush Rebellion.
They're all kind of tied up,
but this is not all LDS folks, right?
This is kind of an offshoot. Can you say more about that?
- Sure. And, and, uh, I think it's really important, Kate,
to make that, um, point in the sense that the,
the church doesn't condone what the Bundys are doing,
although they justify their actions based on their
particular understanding of their faith.
But no, it's not all LDSI do in American Zion
make, it's my thesis that one
of the reasons why there's such an ardent, uh, you know,
sort of movement on the part of some LDS,
particularly in rural places, southern Idaho
and southern Nevada, is that there is this idea
that Joseph Smith said Zion.
Zion was, um, and that's promised land
or sacred land, uh, is something
that God was going to give the Mormons.
And when he made this prophecy, they were in Missouri,
and there was a lot of, um, militia, uh,
action in Missouri on the part of the mobber,
quote unquote the, the Missouri militia who were
fighting the Mormons, because they were, some
of them were abolitionists,
and they were really worried that this, um,
abolitionist contingent was going to vote to prevent some
of these folks that, that wanted to, um, have people
that they'd enslaved continue to be, you know, uh, legal.
So the, the Mormons, um, ended up,
or the Latter Day Saints left
and went to Illinois to Navu, taking with them this idea
of Zion, this idea of promised land that,
that Joseph Smith said God had given them.
And when Joseph Smith was assassinated,
Brigham Young took the idea of Zion with him
to the Great Basin and the Colorado Plateau,
and initially tried to set up this empire called Desere,
which spanned from Oregon down to Mexico.
And, uh, and this idea that, um,
this was promised land, I think really continues to,
to influence the way
some latter day saints see public land.
And, and I think it is a layer in this,
and I, I think that, you know, the state's rights movements,
although they weren't solely, um, LDS, I think
that there was this intimacy, this, this, um, this real
notion that this is their land, uh,
based in part on early Mormon church theology.
- A a and you touched on this, obviously,
this was all indigenous land
before LDS showed up.
So how, in their theology, and,
and if this gets back to beneficial use, uh, how,
how in in their theology do they justify
taking the land from the southern PA in the case of,
of Nevada or throughout, uh,
throughout the Kingdom of Deseret?
How does that work theologically for
th these Bundy type extremists?
- Yeah, and I, I talk about this in, in American Zion,
that the idea of, in particular, let, let's talk about Clive
and, uh, and Gold Butte
and his idea of the hypothetical first Mormon settler.
So the, the Mormon folks came to these areas
that were overlooked by other, uh, white,
you know, colonists.
These were really remote lands.
They weren't particularly productive.
They were very hard to, to settle.
Um, the, the Southern Paiute had been much more effective
at, at operating in these areas
because they would move with, uh, the, the game
and with, um, different types of harvest.
And they were utilizing the land in a much,
much better way than Mormon settlers who were coming.
And, and, you know, they were sedentary .
They were, they were, um, creating, um, farms
and ranches around water sources.
And, um, and so this was their idea of promised land.
This was what God had given them.
The Southern Paiute had an idea
that this was their sacred land,
and this was land that was stingy in some ways
that couldn't accommodate two different cultures, ideas
of sacred land, so many of the Southern Paiute starved.
And, uh, and it's, I mean,
it's a really heartbreaking history.
Um, and, and again, you know, when,
when this indigenous group was really,
the Southern Paiute were really counting,
counting on water sources,
and all of a sudden Mormon settlements were, uh,
you know, co-opting them.
And, and that was enormously problematic and, and tragic.
Now I've forgotten the rest of your question,
- , the notion of beneficial use, then how, okay.
- Thank you. Thank you.
So that, that I'm afraid, you know,
when you look at different ways of utilizing the land,
the Southern Paiute
and the Latter Day Saints, there,
there was this notion that if you utilize that,
if you, if you farmed, you were somehow
doing something that was more productive than, um,
communities that, that were moving around on a landscape,
um, rather than settling landscape
- In, in a divine sense, that, that God gives you the right
to the land because you are settling on it as opposed
to a more nomadic, uh, lifestyle. Is that the
- Yeah, and I, I mean, I would even say that, um,
that again, it goes back to
what we talked about a few minutes ago, that God
is delighted, his eye is delighted by a built environment.
So if there is utilization, if there is cultivation
that's pleasing God in a way that leaving the land as is
or are, are actually, I mean, we know
that indigenous communities were farming, they were,
they were utilizing lands.
They, they, they weren't building permanent structures.
Um, and, uh,
and so there was this idea on the part
of early Mormon settlers and,
and an idea that continues to perpetuate that,
that the early Mormon settlers
and Mormons today are, are utilizing the land in a
somehow better way. Yeah.
- And, and that Utah's state motto today still is
- Industry it Yes.
. Yeah, very much is. Yeah.
Um, um, so I wanna circle it back to the Bundys.
Um, they're super interesting
because they pop up all around the west kind
of capitalizing on
and fomenting discontent
with the government in different ways
and places like, um, am Amman recently getting in
that legal spat with the hospital
and protesting a child abuse case, .
Um, uh, how did they become
so radicalized against the government?
Like, I'm curious why their activism has broken out
of just sort of the ranching public lands realm, and
and why do you think they're so good at organizing
and motivating people to take up arms with them?
- I've thought a lot about this,
and when I met with the Bundys,
I really saw them as outliers.
And so that was in 2015.
And what's happened, I think in the last several years
as the journalist, uh,
Todd Wilkinson says he's seen the ification of the West.
And I would argue that we've seen the Ification
of America in some ways.
And so in, in True West, I look at how the Battle
of Bunkerville, that event in 2014, uh,
became in some ways the beginning of a trajectory
for some folks to get to January 6th.
And, and how this event was particularly galvanizing,
particularly to, to Stewart Rhodes, who is the head
or, you know, was the head of the Oath Keepers
and now in prison for 18 years,
and he was involved in the Battle of Bunkerville.
I also think that, you know, again, as I said,
I saw these fa, this family as outliers.
They've actually been really front
and center now in American pop culture.
I don't know if you all have seen Season five of Fargo,
but, uh, John Ham plays a constitutional sheriff,
and he refers to Amon,
and he refers to LaVoy Finicum in this very
popular television show.
So, so it's something that, that they have really,
they have really risen to these levels of, of pop culture.
They, there's a great deal of adoration, uh, out there
for what the Bundy family did in terms
of taking on the government.
Again, it was kind of the, the whole appeal of David
and Goliath and, uh,
and so I think that that really, uh, created, uh, um,
a great deal of, of support for them,
but also created momentum in, in the militia movement.
And, um, and in terms of, uh,
why they're particularly successful, I,
I, you know, it's, first of all, they got away with it.
They, they got away with both Mal here,
and they got away with, um,
the event in the standoff in Nevada, in Mal here in Oregon.
They were acquitted.
This was Amon and Ryan, uh, in Nevada.
There was, there was a mistrial declared,
and that was Amon Ryan and, um, Cliven.
And so they've been able to get away with it.
In terms of this St.
Luke's thing, this actually is something,
and this is the hospital invoice.
This is the hospital invoicing we're jumping ahead with.
Sorry about that. Yeah. So this is what I've come to kind
of think about Amon.
I talked to Amon at the beginning of Pandemic,
and so it was in March of 2020,
and he was kind of hot under the collar about restrictions
that involved private businesses
and the limits of, uh, are, are you, you know, the, the,
the sort of shutdown of gathering for worship.
So essentially gathering, being in places in public
and how that was impacting churches
and businesses at the time.
He said, you know, I don't believe in any of
that other stuff alluding to Q Anon.
Um, because, you know,
that's when Q Anon was really starting to kind
of put its tentacles into the, the COV pandemic, uh,
misinformation, sort of, you know, social media stuff,
a perfect storm of conspiracy theories, right?
Right. And, and, uh, at the time he said, no, uh, uh,
that's not something that he believes in,
although a number of sup his supporters did.
And, but he made that specific point to me, I think that
Amon, unlike Cliven, who I really, truly believe
buys all of this, the, the religious layer, the, the fact
that he is meant to be fighting this battle, the fact
that the government doesn't
or can't have public land or can't own it.
I think that Amon saw this as this opportunity to
build a big coalition to run for governor of Idaho
to raise money.
And I think he embraced these kind of Q Anon pieces.
And, and again, the St.
Luke's piece that you talked about, Kate, this is a hospital
that, um, that was looking at this malnourished
child, baby Cyrus.
And this happened to be the grandchild of one
of Amman's close associates.
This baby was not, um, physically capable to, to,
um, take on nourishment.
I, the mother, I don't, I mean,
the mother I think, was feeding the baby.
The baby had an issue with being able to absorb nutrition.
And so the hospital wanted to make sure
that this baby was okay.
Uh, the family was unwilling to bring the baby back
for a check in a checkup.
And, and all of a sudden thought, and,
and I shouldn't say that, I, I don't know what he thought,
but Amon made this a campaign that the,
that the hospital was trafficking.
Uh, and, um, he started to docks, uh, hospital staff.
They had a big protest, um, Amons, uh, group,
the People's Right Network, which was something
that he created during Pandemic.
It, it essentially was, I mean,
he called it a neighborhood watch group.
It was enormously disruptive and,
and communities including my own.
And, um, and so they protest in front of St.
Luke's Hospital. Um, they had to divert ambulances
for people who really were sick.
And, uh, and so St.
Luke's decided to fight back against Amon
and ended up winning $52 million in a defamation suit.
So, and now he's just gone. W you know, you hear rumors here
- And there.
We, no one's seen him, in se several, several weeks
or months now at this point.
Right. He tried to sell the house
and didn't get away with that.
And, uh, do we know where he is right now?
- Uh, I keep hearing rumors. I don't know for sure.
I had, I was just at the Tucson Book Festival,
and I had a woman say, I think I know where Amon is,
and kind of tell,
tell me a little bit of a secret. And
- Anyway, - It was, it's,
- I don't, yeah, we'll see.
I, I don't know that we need to turn, you know? Yeah.
Where, where's, where's Amon into a a Where's Waldo book?
It just helps, helps with the, the myth .
Uh, let, so let's get back to some of these myths
that you really get into, into the, in your second book,
you mentioned Constitutional Sheriffs Now making it all the
way into Season five of Fargo.
And that was the myth, of course, that got
Levo Finicum killed this
during the second Bundy standoff in Maller, uh,
they left the Mallard Wildlife Refuge,
and were trying to go get Safe haven from what they believed
to be a constitutional sheriff in a neighboring county.
And when they got pulled over, uh, Amon said, we're going
to see the Sheriff as if that's somehow a, you know,
a get out of jail free card, the FBI will be like, oh, sure.
Get on your way, sir. Uh, right.
E explain this Constitutional Sheriff nonsense and,
and how it ties into public lands extremism.
- Yeah. I write about this in American science,
so I might be a teeny bit rusty on this,
but , uh, so Richard Mack is,
he heads the Constitutional Sheriff's
and Peacekeeping Association,
and he is in very, very, uh, he's been in, in, um,
cahoots with Stewart Rhodes.
I, I saw them present together at something called
The Red Pill Expo, which is a gathering
- Of, oh boy, send, send me my tickets.
- Yeah, it was a, it was quite a show.
And so this was a gathering
of every conspiracy theorist that you can imagine.
This happened, I saw it in October of 2020,
and they were already talking about
the election being stolen.
So they were already positioning themselves,
and I'm, I'm talking about Richard Mack,
this constitutional sheriff, uh, Stewart Rhodes, who, again,
the head of the Oath Keepers, there were some adamant,
adamant anti-vaxxers.
There were, uh, Q Anon folks, uh, one guy in particular
who talks about the lizard, people who walk among us.
And then at lunch, the film was, the Titanic never sank.
So this was .
- Oh, wow. So we're, we're from the crazy
to the Totally nuts
- Here. Yeah. So, so there was, it
- Was quite - A group, and I tell you at the time, it,
it is easy to laugh,
but I, that's when I realized this was a really
broad coalition.
These were, this was unprecedented in terms
of bringing these groups together.
So you had yoga moms who didn't wanna vaccinate their kids,
hanging out with lizard people, believers
and constitutional sheriffs.
And the Constitutional Sheriff is, um, the idea is
that they are the, uh, they have the most authority
of, of any law enforcement in the land, in court, um,
including the government because they're elected.
It's absolutely bogus.
But it is a belief that, again, you know, the belief
that the federal government can't own public land.
It's the same thing with the constitutional sheriffs,
that they believe that they're the highest law
of the land. And it,
- Even though the world sheriff doesn't ever appear
in the Constitution, it,
- It's, it's go and it goes back to, um,
religious extremism again.
I mean, it, it's, these are, these are, um, folks
that came out of, of real, real, uh, religious,
like, I mean, people sort of positioning themselves for
anti-government, um, activism and civil war, um, mentality.
- Um, Betsy, I am curious, as you're talking about this,
how do you, how do you feel when you go to these meetups,
um, and how,
and when you talk to these people, like where do you,
how do you approach them?
How do you find the common ground necessary
to have a conversation with them?
- I will be honest with you, I am very, um,
willing to talk to folks.
I, I worry about people being vulnerable to these ideas.
So I'm willing to talk to folks
before they're fully indoctrinated.
But I really believe that there are bad guys out there.
And, and, and so I, when I talk to Clive
and I, I stuck
with talking about L-D-S-I-I,
we really focused on his religious beliefs.
And when they began to talk a little bit about the Battle
of Bunkerville, and I, I'm telling you,
it was a thrilling event to a number of people.
Uh, there was a lot of adrenaline, a lot
of feeling of victory.
Um, and so you can understand where
that could be somewhat contagious.
I've, I've thought a lot about that, you know, why this,
what it did in terms of motivating individuals
and, and this culture.
But, um, but I, I have talked to folks that I talk,
I've talked to folks who've left the movement.
Um, I've talked to folks who've been vulnerable to it.
And, and, um, you know, again, my idea being very much,
how do we keep our communities healthy so that social media
and cynical politicians and,
and people making power plays don't own the day, don't,
aren't able to, to indoctrinate, um, and,
and spread extremism.
So I think it's really important to,
to have these conversations.
However, there are people who were really dangerous.
And I, I did have one incident that,
that I'm not particularly proud of.
Um, but I went to, this was not the Red Pill Expo,
which was a national event.
This was the Red Pill Festival, which was a regional event.
God, no. So, so I went to a little town called St.
Regis, which in the last or the week or two
before they had this Red Pill festival,
um, the, the saw mill, uh,
or this, the, the, there was a timber, um, industry,
timber business that had,
that had laid off 97 people in a town of, I, I have
to believe it's less than 500 people.
So that kind of thing does leave folks vulnerable
to, to extremism.
I mean, that anger, that, that belief
that somehow environmentalists are behind all this, and,
and these, these folks pick these small towns
that are vulnerable to extremism.
So I was at this event, the, the mc, Derek Skis,
who is a former state legislature, was
unbelievably awful to, I mean,
just really vindictive, really ugly.
He was being, there was a Washington Post person there,
there, vice News was there, there were other, uh,
journalists there from Montana.
Uh, I was there. I don't, I'm a historian and a researcher.
I don't consider myself a journalist,
but I, I do journalism in, in some of this work that I do.
So he was being horrible,
and I, the every person
who got up there was just spreading lies.
And it, I, it's the only time that I got really mad.
And one of the guys who got up there was Joey Gibson,
who's from Patriot Prayer,
and he'd been the one who'd been just horrible
to the Black Lives Matter protesters.
And he'd showed up with folks and their ars
and he just, he was so nasty.
And he got up there and he is saying, you know,
what the right thing is to do?
I mean, or rather, God is telling you what to do.
God is in your heart. We know we have
to fight against the liberals, and we know we have to.
I mean, essentially, it's a, it's a religious mandate.
And I went up to him afterwards, ,
and I just, I went up to his booth
and I said, what about God telling other people
to do completely different things?
Like what if God is saying, you know, get in there and,
and protest for Black Lives Matter.
Make sure that we're taking care
of people in our community, spread the love.
Like what if God is saying, leave your ars at home?
You know? And, and, and he was so, um, sort of,
I mean, I think he just said, oh, well, um,
God can talk to you too.
I mean, it was just like one, I think he was so, um, but,
but he is like, no, that's,
I think it's, God talks to everybody.
And I said, but you're telling us that God talks
to one set of folks.
And I, anyway, I got into a little bit of a discussion
with him because I was so sick of it.
Um, that probably wasn't my finest moment,
but I was, I was, I, I didn't, I, I wasn't, I was ready
to just, uh, knock my head against a wall.
- So I wanna talk about geography then. 'cause this is St.
Regis, Montana that you're talking about,
which is along I 90, right?
Real close to the Idaho border.
And we are seeing a, a growing stronghold of extremism
in Idaho, especially the further north you get.
So what is going on up there that you have these extremists
choosing to settle in, in Idaho,
and what does that mean, both for public lands
and I suppose democracy writ large
when you have this kind of movement
of people into a specific area?
- Yeah, and I, I mean, let's think a little bit
about public lands.
I if, if on January 6th, you know, hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds of people can take over the
capital, imagine how easy it is
to do another action on public lands.
I, I, I mean, public lands are vulnerable,
and it's a, for better
or for worse, great stage for these folks to, to be able
to go in, uh, federal employees leave
and they can, you know, they, they, it was so easy
to take over the Malhere Wildlife Refuge
and, uh, the Battle of Bunkerville over Gold
Butte National Monument.
Again, they, this was, this was something
that was very easy to, to stage.
And it, and it's effective. They, they get their platform.
So I think public lands are extremely vulnerable.
And when you look at places in the West
that are becoming ever more extreme, of course,
they're right next to public land.
I mean, you know, the Idaho Panhandle is right next to the,
um, river of no return wilderness, Frank Church River
of No Return Wilderness.
Um, so, and I, I, again, I I don't know
of any specific action right now.
Um, and one
of the reasons why these folks really like these places is
because of wilderness attributes.
I mean, there, there are places where people can kind
of get escape or get lost,
or have places where they can retreat.
And North Idaho is particularly
interesting because in part, it's part of this campaign
by John Wellesley Rawls, the American readout,
which is Go west, create like-minded communities,
and let's get ready for either a civil war
or the second coming.
So the, these are religiously motivated folks.
Many of them are, um, white Christian nationalists
going into communities that, that have had, uh,
economic, um, declines.
I mean, you know, some of these places are old sawmill
towns, and they can go in
and they feel like they can re recreate communities based on
their own ideologies.
And so that North Idaho is one of those places.
And we know that North Idaho has been
vulnerable to that for a while.
I mean, Richard Butler was there.
Uh, Ruby Ridge took place there.
So these, this is not the, the Unabomber, well,
the Unabomber was in, um, Montana.
Montana, Montana, Montana, that's right. Yeah.
But, but, but it does definitely, uh,
spread into Western Montana.
So, so Raws talks about Colorado, um, east, um,
Oregon, Eastern Washington, uh, the I, uh, Idaho.
Um, and so he's talking about this as a place to,
to build homeland.
And again, as I get into mythologies, this is the mytho
or the myth of homeland, the mi myth of a blank slate,
the myth of a frontier, the myth of a front line.
And, and this is in part what motivates some of these folks.
That said, I was really happy to see
that there are people fighting to, to, um,
push these folks out fighting extremism in Idaho.
Uh, the take back Idaho is really a movement launched
by conservative Republicans
to thwart extremism in their party.
- Betsy, can you say more about that?
Who is working to sort of push back on this?
Is there any, and what tools do you see working,
um, out of those?
- Yeah, I, I have a story. I, I, who do I see?
I see Greg g Graff, I see Krista Hazel, uh,
I see Alicia Abbott, who's
with Idaho 97 Percenters, which is, uh,
- Opposite, the opposite of the 3%, because I love that.
- Um, and Mike SATs, who started, uh, Idaho, um, 97%
or so, the, these are groups that are both, um, you know,
the, the 97 percenters are more on
the liberal side of things.
The take back Idaho folks are, um, Republican,
but they're working together to, to get these folks
who have come in apart from unite the Right.
They're, they're, because Idaho has, um, be,
and I should say that, uh, I, I should, I should reiterate
that, or or rather I should rephrase that, sorry.
. Um, because people
who have moved into Idaho are trying to
promote it as a white Christian nationalist homeland,
folks who've lived in Idaho who, you know, predate this
and maybe have lived there for many generations, uh,
are are trying to thwart the,
unite the right people there.
There's, um, some neo-Nazis from California coming in there,
there are, right, right, right.
Um, wing Republicans from Orange County, that, that
may not feel uncomfortable throwing their lot in with,
with white supremacists.
And, um, and they, they've moved to the state.
So those that have been there for a while, who,
who feel like this is absolutely awful, uh,
are working really hard to protect their communities.
I have one story just Kate, based on, um,
an example which shows both a tenacity,
but also how, um, how this is really going to be a marathon
and not, not a sprint.
Um, in Bonners County,
or excuse me, in Bonners Ferry in Bonners County,
there were extremists who tried
to take over the school board there,
and they won two of them.
And I think there are five people on the, the school board,
there might be four, but I think there are five.
Uh, two of them were extremists,
and they won by something like five or seven votes.
And so the folks at Bonners Ferry, a conservative,
one of the most conservative places in Idaho, in already one
of the most conservative states, uh, demanded a recount.
And they kicked these guys out of there.
And the, the, the extremists
who had been on the school board wanted
to defund the school.
They'd appointed a superintendent
that had no interest in public education.
And so they had this recount,
and everybody was feeling great.
And then the next election came
and the extremists got on the school board.
So there are, there have been some successes,
and I think the same vote saw a lot of, um,
pushback against, this is the Idaho Freedom Foundation,
which is, which is an ex, they have an extremist agenda.
And, um, I think there was some success on the part
of Takeback Idaho,
but it's going to be a fight that they, they have
to keep fighting, and there has to be a vigilance,
because this is a really tenacious movement.
- Betsy, how do the rich folks who are moving into the west,
into these sort of resort towns that we think of,
like Big Sky, Jackson, sun Valley, how
do they play into any of this, if at all?
Do they, is is there, do they, does that sort
of, I don't know, gentrification if you will, sort of, um,
set off these radical folks?
Or are they in completely different worlds at this point?
- I think it's an interesting question.
It it's, and it's, and it's complicated. I would say.
I'm not sure that rich people moving to places like, um,
the Yellowstone, um, or what is the name of that place?
The Yellowstone Club ,
who are the one percenters coming in
and, you know, punching into wilderness impacting habitats,
uh, polluting rivers.
It's a nightmare. And it really does impact
the cost of living.
I mean, for people who cater to them,
there's no places to live.
Um, they're working th two to three jobs, and
and these folks come in, they're there for, you know,
two weeks maybe in the summer, two weeks in the winter.
They, they don't directly impact this.
And yet these ha the Yellowstone Club in, in, um,
particular has become a place for fundraising.
And so you're seeing candidates that are coming in, uh,
that are become, you know, these candidates
that are moving ever more to the right.
So, um, who did we just have, I guess,
who was here this winter?
Um, uh, not God,
that awful guy from Texas, you know who I'm talking about?
There's so many of them. Senator Ted, Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz.
So Ted Cruz. Yeah.
So Ted Cruz is coming in
to fundraise at the Yellowstone Club.
So, yeah, you know, I mean, if you look at it that way,
extremist candidates are benefiting from the one percenters
that are moving into these places.
So that there's that.
But also I think, uh,
because it is so hard for, as these folks move in
and prices increase, it's really hard for people to,
to afford places.
And I'm not sure that that's necessarily creating extremism,
but there is a perception now about places like Bozeman
that we're so, we're so much in a bubble,
and we're so out of touch with the rest of Montana
that when I, as a person from Bozeman,
and I've lived in Montana for 31 years,
and I go out to a rural community,
I don't wanna have a Mon Montana or a, a Bozeman
or Gallatin County license plate,
because I do know that my car there, there's a lot
of resentment against our community.
And so I, I, I've had, um, friends who've gone
to fishing accesses that, that have their tire slashed
and that, and it's not, you know, I get it.
I understand why people think Bozeman's full of shit.
I mean, there's so much there.
We are a, a, a liberal little bubble in Montana,
but I do think it's really imperative that we make even more
of an effort to understand the rest of Montana,
because there are a lot, lot of people
who live in my community
who have no idea about Eastern Montana and rural culture.
And I think that's bad.
I do think that, um, we cannot, if we're going to be a part
of Montana, and we're gonna understand politics,
because we've gone from a purple state since I first moved
here to an ever reddening state.
And if there are folks that live in communities like mine
that aren't making an effort to understand the rest
of Montana, those communities are ever more
vulnerable to extremism.
And it's in part because they resent our community
and our culture, even though we're not all living in
the Yellowstone Club.
But it's, but so Kate, that, that's a,
that's a complicated way of answering your question,
but I would say it does play a role, and it's, and,
and more than anything, I think it's really important
for people in communities like Missoula
and Bozeman to understand that Montana is,
is a lot bigger than Missoula and Bozeman. I,
- I think it's fascinating, first of all, just to know
that when it gets cold in Texas,
Ted Cruz doesn't just go to Cancun.
, I, I wanna ask about what happened
to all of these groups post January 6th.
Obviously, you have Stuart Rhodes in prison
for a very long time.
You have Amon Bundy underground
and owing, uh, tens of millions of dollars
to a hospital system.
So what's happening now in those circles?
Uh, are they regrouping?
Are they humbled
and, uh, acknowledge the error of their ways now that
so many of them are in prison?
What, what's the, the state of play,
particularly heading into, uh, another election year
where Donald Trump, uh, surely is going
to once again claim any election is stolen
if he does not win?
- Okay, so I'm gonna preface this as, um, the, I I,
I am working now on a completely different
thing for my new book.
So I haven't been following them as vigilantly as I do, um,
or I have in the past.
However, I have a couple of, um, sort of observations.
Number one, the oath keepers seems to have disintegrated.
I don't, I, I, and, and that said, there might be people
who are going to rise from the ashes because that happens.
Um, but, but the Oath Keepers doesn't seem
to be very viable right now.
The Proud Boys, I think is still, it, it still has,
um, um, some structure.
Um, I think that's still a threat.
My feeling now,
I'm less worried about militias than I am about how
mainstream their missions have become.
So I'm seeing evangelicals taking up these,
these kind of issues as a way to,
to fight the good fight for God.
I see the, um, these arm, I, I actually see this as,
I think that we are going
to see if Donald Trump loses the same amount of,
of uprising.
And it's not going to be from militias,
it's gonna be from folks
who are radicalized evangelicals who've decided
that this is their chance to fight for God's guy, uh, Trump.
And, um, and so I'm, I'm worried about feeling that.
Um, but I, I don't think the militias being intact is, uh,
necessary at this point, uh,
because I think that it's become so mainstream, in part
because Trump did do hi during his debate, you know,
stand back and stand by to, to the, to the, uh, proud boys.
And he does actively, you know,
and I, it's not even a dog whistle at this point. No,
- It's explicit. Sure.
- Explicit. I mean, he will, he will do a call to arms,
and there are any number of, of folks that have guns
and will look for an occasion to, to fight for him.
So, um, so again, not having followed it as closely
as I have, that's my hunch.
- That's so interesting you bring that up, Betsy.
'cause I was gonna ask you about that sort of, um,
sense that these groups have faded a little bit in the past
couple of years, and how that that's not
what we normally see under a Democratic president.
We usually see more, um, more discontent
and organizing on the right.
Um, but,
but I think that you're spot on in saying
that it's probably just
'cause the, the,
the mainstream politicians on the right have fully embraced
their, a lot of these causes now,
and it's just sort of, they're not feeling
voiceless, I guess.
- Yeah, yeah. I I, I, I hate to say that,
but I'm not sure these groups are really necessary at that,
at this point, to, in order to, to continue
to promote these, these very dangerous, uh, ideas and,
and this kind of militancy
and these, these deep right wing ideas.
- So I have a question to sort of selfishly bring it back
around to public lands, but this is a legitimate question
that I, that I wanna ask, which is that, you know, we see,
like I live in Utah and our state legislature just wrapped
and they pushed a ton
of dismal legislation about trans bathroom things.
And every single, like, you know, banning abortion again
and all of the things that are kind of top of the
priority list for these culture war, um, legislators.
And, but what we didn't see much action on the public lands
front, it, it feels like public lands are not at least a,
a, a, a policy bottle, uh, battleground, um,
or at least are not maybe at the top of the agenda
for these sort of evangelical right wingers.
What do you think about that?
Do you, are we missing something?
Do you think that there, that there's a chance
that they might rope our public lands back in, in a big way?
Or, or, um,
are they focused on more religious, you know, issues?
- Oh my gosh. Okay.
So my thought is, and because I'm not in Utah,
but I certainly know what you're talking about,
my thought is, is that they're working right now
on hot button issues.
They, they're speaking to their constituency.
So right now, trans bathrooms
are more important than public lands.
And, uh, and yet I don't think it's the end of it.
I mean, once public lands become important again,
we'll be right back to at public lands
and attacking public, um, you know, as essentially,
you know, pushing, uh, extraction on public lands or,
or, you know, eroding, uh, regulations that, that, um, are,
are, are part of public lands management.
But it, it's really interesting to see how
they jockey, uh, uh, to, to, to, um, you know,
galvanize or, or, or engage their, their constituencies
and trans issues right now are, are such, I mean,
that was one of the biggest things in our state legislature.
When did that happen?
I, I, it, I mean, it, it just, it, it, it's, you know,
it's basically what can we do to raise money
to make people become outraged, to scare them?
Uh, and right now it's trans, um,
athletes in women's sports.
I mean, it just, but, but it's, it's,
and that's the issue of, of the day.
Um, so no, we, we have not seen the end
of attacks on public lands.
It just isn't in vogue right now for, um,
right wing culture.
- I, I wanna wrap on a, maybe a, a less
bleak note.
'cause you, you do end your book on a somewhat hopeful note.
Do you, do you have some real hope that the, the extremism
that we are seeing here in the west can dissipate
or that there can be some reconciliation?
And what, what would that path look like?
- Oh my gosh. Okay. So we got our work cut out for us.
It's not gonna be easy.
And, um, and,
and yet I ended this book feeling far more
hopeful, uh, than I did when I began it
because I, you know,
I started out when we were all just kind
of siloed in our houses, sheltering in place.
We were getting versions of each other over social media.
Everybody was super mean.
And, and so I, I felt pretty bleak. And I also felt mad.
I mean, mean, I, I I started out feeling just as angry
as everybody else, you know, oh, this misinformation,
this disinformation, what a bunch of idiots.
And when I started to go out in these communities
and talk to people, and again, I I said it earlier,
not everybody, you don't wanna talk
to these extreme Christian nationalists that, and
because they are so intent on taking over places, and they,
and they have othered people.
And that's what scares me is this othering.
And if we play into othering and,
and by we, I, I'm, I'm talking about me as somebody who is
a liberal with a PhD and, and, um,
and you know, the, I mean, I, I'm sure I'm viewed as, um,
an elitist, uh, you know, sort of, I, I,
maybe I'm condescending, maybe you know, these things
that I tried very hard to, to not be, um,
when I, when I went into these
communities to talk to people.
And so, uh, you know, both, and,
and I, I'm not gonna both sides us
because there is a real threat from right wing
extremism left.
There is some left wing extremism,
but it is like, it's absolutely eclipsed by the right wing.
However, I do think that folks like me need
to be a little less on their high horse, um, uh, and,
and to be willing to, um, talk to folks that,
that may be coming from different points of view.
And, and I'll be honest with you,
I actually had a really good time.
I, I, I talked to a lot of people
who did have very different ideas than I did.
I, I mean, one of the conversations I had,
which I thought was really interesting, was some, uh,
one rancher and a guy who owned a hotel, um,
who were talking about LaVoy Finicum, you know,
resisting arrest.
And I said, not only did he not I, I mean I, sorry,
they didn't think he resisted
arrest, let me start that again.
I talked to , I talked
to a rancher in Eastern Montana
and a guy who owns the longest continuing operating hotel
there, and they had talked about
George Floyd resisting arrest.
And I said, not only did he not resist arrest, you know,
your guy LaVoy did.
And, and they, they had,
and it's not like they were big supporters of LaVoy Finicum,
but they had kind of, they'd heard about,
um, the mal here events.
They'd heard that LaVoy had been shot.
There'd been some state troopers from Oregon
who had stayed at the hotel who had said, you know, we
LaVoy didn't have to die.
And I was like, guys,
he was pulling a gun from his pocket screaming, shoot me,
shoot me, shoot me.
And, and, but just to be at this table drinking coffee
with these guys, it was really good.
I mean, we had, it was really good to be able
to talk about climate change with them, to be able
to talk about police with them, to be able
to talk about Black Lives matter with them and,
and to do it in a way that was face-to-face,
where we could all say how we were feeling.
And I think, I mean, we didn't change our mind that day.
It's not like we all walked away
and said, boy, you know, I
really have a different point of view.
But what we had is the beginning of a relationship.
And one of the guys I've continued to keep in touch with,
and I've now visited him three times,
and he was the one who told me, if I hadn't met you,
I would've been afraid of you.
And that is exactly the agenda that some of these
folks are trying to create.
I mean, Trump wants us to be afraid of people
that don't agree with him, um,
and to hate people that don't agree with him.
And we gotta get around that.
Or we are gonna be in a position where, where, I mean,
othering happens fast and it leads to violence fast, and,
and it's something that there's, I mean,
I'm not even gonna say there's real potential.
We've seen it at the Pulse nightclub,
we've seen it at the Walmart in El Paso,
we've seen it at the grocery store in Buffalo.
This is something that could happen more. And, and it does.
I'm not, I don't even know why I could say I say could.
It is happening more and more often,
and that's why we cannot let this campaign of othering
stop us from being in relationship with each other,
because it's incredibly intentional
and it's so easy to fall into.
It's so easy to be mad and to be unwilling to talk to folks
because there are so much gross stuff happening right now,
just like you're talking about, you know,
why are we focusing on transgender bathrooms?
I mean, these are wonderful people who are trying to,
to just survive in our world,
and we're, we're focusing on transgender people.
What is going on here?
And, and why are these campaigns finding such success?
In part, it's because we're letting them have the narrative
and we need to take it back.
- Hmm. Well, I know that we could talk about this for hours
because it's a very, um,
complicated issue, but also it seems obvious.
It's just how do you get people who don't see eye
to eye politically to actually get together
and have coffee if you're not writing a book about them?
Um, So I,
I have a similar experience in working in rural Utah.
I got to sit down
and talk to a lot of people I didn't agree with
and got to even, um, to the point
where I called some of them my friends.
But, um, normal people don't often have those opportunities
in their day-to-Day lives.
So, um, I hope that that's
what your next book is about,
- Well, I I'm hoping that we can scale it.
I'm talking to Tory House Press about figuring out, I mean,
as we see our institutions, um, sort of collapse
as we still see small town newspapers collapse,
we're we're having fewer and fewer opportunities.
Yeah. So I, I'm really hoping
that we can scale some of these conversations.
I, I do know that there are groups that,
that do work on this.
There's, um, I I
and I, I, I am not articulate enough, um, at this point
to talk about specific groups,
but I, I do know that there are, um,
efforts along these lines,
and that's something that I'm really, really, um,
interested in, in working on with universities,
with different nonprofit organizations, um,
with Community Town Hall get togethers.
And, um, because we, we got out of practice and,
and, you know, our, our kids
weren't playing sports together.
We weren't going to PTA meetings together.
We weren't doing things that we,
we normally did having book clubs together, um, that,
that we would perhaps be with people
with different points of view.
And I, I think that a lot of us have decided
to dig in our heels and,
and not continue with those kind of,
um, you know, opportunities.
And we have to figure out ways to do it.
We have to organize and consider it
and look at community resiliency.
I do think it's possible community
by community if there are people willing to really consider
how they can make that work.
And I actually think libraries are a great place to, um,
think about these things and universities are a great place
to think about these things, and bookstores are a great
thing, way to or place to think about these things.
- Awesome. Well, we'll leave it there.
Betsy Gaines Kwaman, author of American Zion
and True West, thank you so much for joining us today.
- I really, really appreciate the opportunity.
It's been fun to be in conversation with you guys.
- Here's a little good news to close us out.
California's Yurok tribe will be the first native people
to manage tribal land with the National Park Service.
Under a historic memorandum of understanding,
starting in 2026, the tribe will have ownership of 125 acres
that will serve as a new gateway
to Redwood National and state parks.
The land is called Ooo, in the Yurok language,
and was stolen from the Yurok tribe during the gold rush
of the mid 18 hundreds, along with 90%
of the tribe's territory.
The tribe plans to construct a traditional Yurok village
of Redwood plank houses
and a sweat house, a new visitor center displaying Yurok
artifacts and over a mile of new trails that will connect
to existing trail systems in the adjacent parks.
- I am really excited to see all of that when it gets built.
It's long past due that tribes, uh, have co-management
and co stewardship, uh, on our national public lands.
It's, it's really great to see.
All right, well that is it for today, folks.
Uh, as always, feel free to reach out with your Thoughts
and Comments podcast@westernpriorities.org.
Uh, and as Kate mentioned earlier, go check out that pod.
And as Kate mentioned earlier, uh, go check out that Road
to 30 postcard video, uh, from Chuck Wall.
It really is a really spectacular piece of work. The team
- Did a great job with it.
- Thanks again to Betsy for joining us today, and thank you.
For listening to the landscape.