1 00:00:00,085 --> 00:00:00,125 - 2 00:00:06,785 --> 00:00:08,325 - Hey, there it is, the landscape, 3 00:00:08,325 --> 00:00:10,845 your show about America's parks and public lands. 4 00:00:10,905 --> 00:00:13,285 I'm Erin Weiss with the Center for Western Priorities, 5 00:00:13,285 --> 00:00:15,925 waiting for our inevitable march snowstorm 6 00:00:16,025 --> 00:00:17,445 to roll in here in Denver. 7 00:00:18,705 --> 00:00:20,805 - And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City, 8 00:00:20,805 --> 00:00:23,205 where I think it's gonna be sunny for the rest of the week. 9 00:00:23,235 --> 00:00:26,165 Nice. This week on the pod, we're talking to three members 10 00:00:26,185 --> 00:00:27,245 of the reporting team 11 00:00:27,245 --> 00:00:29,685 behind an incredible investigation into 12 00:00:29,685 --> 00:00:32,565 how lithium mining could affect the West's water supply. 13 00:00:32,905 --> 00:00:34,805 But before we get to that, let's do the news. 14 00:00:35,675 --> 00:00:37,405 Last week, the Bureau of Land Management 15 00:00:37,405 --> 00:00:40,805 and Forest Service dropped the long awaited draft management 16 00:00:40,805 --> 00:00:42,765 plan for the Bears Ears National Monument. 17 00:00:43,385 --> 00:00:45,685 Now, every new monument gets a management plan, so 18 00:00:45,685 --> 00:00:47,845 that's not in and of itself very newsworthy. 19 00:00:48,065 --> 00:00:50,285 But the thing that makes this so exciting is 20 00:00:50,285 --> 00:00:52,525 that it's the first management plan developed in 21 00:00:52,725 --> 00:00:54,405 collaboration with tribal nations. 22 00:00:54,825 --> 00:00:57,205 The BLM and Forest Service published a handful 23 00:00:57,265 --> 00:01:00,245 of potential plans for the monument per regular practice, 24 00:01:00,505 --> 00:01:03,365 and identified the plan that includes the most tribal input 25 00:01:03,425 --> 00:01:04,765 as their preferred plan. 26 00:01:05,105 --> 00:01:07,685 That's great news since the agency's preferred plan is 27 00:01:07,685 --> 00:01:09,485 usually the one that ends up going into effect. 28 00:01:10,225 --> 00:01:12,405 The preferred plan released last week includes a number 29 00:01:12,405 --> 00:01:14,045 of tweaks to allow activities 30 00:01:14,045 --> 00:01:15,685 inside the monument's boundaries, 31 00:01:15,875 --> 00:01:18,085 like a complete ban on recreational shooting 32 00:01:18,465 --> 00:01:21,005 and some grazing closures and limits on off-roading. 33 00:01:21,005 --> 00:01:24,925 In order to protect archeological resources, around 90% 34 00:01:24,925 --> 00:01:27,045 of the monument will remain open to grazing, 35 00:01:27,305 --> 00:01:28,725 and around two thirds would remain 36 00:01:28,725 --> 00:01:29,885 open to off-road vehicles. 37 00:01:29,885 --> 00:01:30,965 Under the draft plan, 38 00:01:31,425 --> 00:01:34,085 it also places an emphasis on indigenous knowledge 39 00:01:34,085 --> 00:01:36,525 and practices for vegetation management, such 40 00:01:36,525 --> 00:01:38,405 as cultural burning and wood gathering. 41 00:01:39,285 --> 00:01:41,925 A 90 day comment period kicked off on Friday, March 8th. 42 00:01:42,055 --> 00:01:44,605 We'll drop a link to the comment form along with resources 43 00:01:44,605 --> 00:01:46,525 to learn more about that plan in the show notes, 44 00:01:46,825 --> 00:01:48,085 and we'll try to line up an interview 45 00:01:48,085 --> 00:01:49,485 with some folks involved in drafting the 46 00:01:49,485 --> 00:01:50,605 plan in the coming month. 47 00:01:52,195 --> 00:01:54,895 - In other news, lithium prices are falling along 48 00:01:54,895 --> 00:01:56,495 with all other EV metals. 49 00:01:56,835 --> 00:01:59,375 Now that's mainly due to a slowdown in demand 50 00:01:59,395 --> 00:02:01,935 for electric vehicles in China and in the us. 51 00:02:02,235 --> 00:02:04,615 That's of course, caused in part by high interest rates, 52 00:02:05,165 --> 00:02:07,055 also the somewhat slow rollout 53 00:02:07,055 --> 00:02:08,575 of a charging network across the country. 54 00:02:09,275 --> 00:02:12,215 In the meantime, China has been pumping out lithium 55 00:02:12,275 --> 00:02:13,975 and lithium containing batteries. 56 00:02:14,275 --> 00:02:17,775 So the supply side of the equation is dragging down prices. 57 00:02:18,675 --> 00:02:21,495 In other words, this is a classic mining boom 58 00:02:21,495 --> 00:02:23,975 and bust cycle globally only. 59 00:02:24,155 --> 00:02:26,935 The boom was more of just a loud popping noise as far 60 00:02:26,935 --> 00:02:28,415 as mining in the US goes. 61 00:02:29,315 --> 00:02:33,215 Now ultimately, lithium demand will eventually go up, 62 00:02:33,555 --> 00:02:36,615 but it's hard to say when I, I'm seeing some companies 63 00:02:36,615 --> 00:02:39,095 and economic studies, uh, suggesting 64 00:02:39,095 --> 00:02:43,695 that supply is gonna outpace demand until 2030 or beyond. 65 00:02:44,315 --> 00:02:46,335 And that's something to keep in mind as you listen 66 00:02:46,355 --> 00:02:49,575 to this interview about lithium and water. 67 00:02:49,915 --> 00:02:52,575 And the companies that are insisting their minds won't 68 00:02:52,575 --> 00:02:54,015 damage Western aquifers. 69 00:02:54,875 --> 00:02:57,015 We have seen this story play out 70 00:02:57,015 --> 00:02:59,645 for 150 years across the west. 71 00:03:00,145 --> 00:03:04,405 The minute a mining boom goes bust, mining companies pack up 72 00:03:04,405 --> 00:03:07,485 and go, and everyone else is left to clean up the damage. 73 00:03:11,175 --> 00:03:12,885 - We're excited to have two reporters 74 00:03:12,885 --> 00:03:14,365 and an editor from the Howard Center 75 00:03:14,385 --> 00:03:18,045 for Investigative Journalism at Arizona State University's. 76 00:03:18,045 --> 00:03:20,525 Walter Cronkite School of Journalism here today. 77 00:03:20,955 --> 00:03:23,525 They're part of a large team of editors, photographers, 78 00:03:23,545 --> 00:03:26,245 and reporters who worked on a groundbreaking investigation 79 00:03:26,635 --> 00:03:28,365 into the groundwater threats posed 80 00:03:28,365 --> 00:03:29,805 by lithium mining in the West. 81 00:03:30,255 --> 00:03:31,325 Their reporting found 82 00:03:31,325 --> 00:03:33,885 that lithium mining could suck up billions of gallons 83 00:03:33,885 --> 00:03:36,845 of water in some of the driest states in the US 84 00:03:37,225 --> 00:03:39,685 and that the federal government has no way to stop this. 85 00:03:40,295 --> 00:03:42,645 First up, we've got Emma Peterson, a graduate 86 00:03:42,645 --> 00:03:45,365 of the Cronkite School, who led the team's reporting on the 87 00:03:45,365 --> 00:03:46,925 Thacker Pass Mine and Tailings. 88 00:03:47,195 --> 00:03:49,245 Emma, thanks for being here. Thank 89 00:03:49,245 --> 00:03:50,285 - You for having me. . 90 00:03:51,035 --> 00:03:53,445 - Next up, we've got Morgan Casey, also a graduate 91 00:03:53,445 --> 00:03:54,525 of the Cronkite School, 92 00:03:54,815 --> 00:03:56,885 who's reporting spread across multiple states 93 00:03:56,885 --> 00:03:57,925 principally in the West. 94 00:03:58,705 --> 00:03:59,725 - Hey, thanks for having me. 95 00:04:00,785 --> 00:04:02,965 - And finally, we've got Lauren Olo, 96 00:04:03,085 --> 00:04:04,685 a professor at the Cronkite School 97 00:04:04,825 --> 00:04:05,965 who helped edit the story. 98 00:04:06,185 --> 00:04:07,445 Lauren, thanks for being here. 99 00:04:08,105 --> 00:04:09,365 - Hi, thank you so much for having us. 100 00:04:10,105 --> 00:04:11,525 - All right, Lauren, let's start with you. 101 00:04:12,265 --> 00:04:13,525 Why did the team decide 102 00:04:13,525 --> 00:04:15,205 to look into lithium mining in the west? 103 00:04:16,155 --> 00:04:20,725 - Yeah, sure. So we started looking into lithium mining, um, 104 00:04:20,725 --> 00:04:22,245 because, you know, we had seen a lot 105 00:04:22,245 --> 00:04:26,565 of spot stories looking at, um, a mine project 106 00:04:26,635 --> 00:04:28,365 that had been proposed in northern Nevada, 107 00:04:28,535 --> 00:04:32,205 which is actually a mine that, um, Emma, uh, spent a lot 108 00:04:32,205 --> 00:04:33,285 of time digging into. 109 00:04:33,385 --> 00:04:34,965 So that project is called Thacker Pass, 110 00:04:35,505 --> 00:04:38,605 and there had been a series of lawsuits against the mine, 111 00:04:39,065 --> 00:04:42,605 um, against the company behind the mine, uh, lithium Nevada, 112 00:04:42,605 --> 00:04:44,805 which is owned by Lithium America's Corporation. 113 00:04:45,065 --> 00:04:46,485 And that had been in the news quite a bit. 114 00:04:46,545 --> 00:04:47,965 So we were curious about that. 115 00:04:48,225 --> 00:04:51,405 We saw that there was also a lot of federal funding around, 116 00:04:51,945 --> 00:04:54,725 um, mining projects like the Lithium mine 117 00:04:55,065 --> 00:04:57,805 and some of the spot reporting we had seen also suggested 118 00:04:57,805 --> 00:05:01,205 that the backer pass mine was being fast tracked 119 00:05:01,205 --> 00:05:04,325 through the regulatory process with the federal government. 120 00:05:04,985 --> 00:05:08,685 So we, so basically seeing that sort of series 121 00:05:08,745 --> 00:05:10,885 of different spots stories said to us, all right, 122 00:05:10,885 --> 00:05:12,125 there's something going on here 123 00:05:12,125 --> 00:05:13,765 that's worth digging deeper into. 124 00:05:14,265 --> 00:05:15,365 And so that's what we did. 125 00:05:15,365 --> 00:05:17,285 We started with Thacker Thacker Pass, 126 00:05:17,465 --> 00:05:19,085 but it soon became pretty evident 127 00:05:19,195 --> 00:05:22,605 that this wasn't the only lithium mining project underway. 128 00:05:23,025 --> 00:05:24,805 Um, and so then we expanded our search 129 00:05:25,025 --> 00:05:29,045 and discovered that there were actually dozens of projects, 130 00:05:29,345 --> 00:05:33,125 uh, that were in various stages of, um, proposal planning, 131 00:05:33,745 --> 00:05:36,925 um, getting, you know, sort of, uh, uh, 132 00:05:37,115 --> 00:05:39,005 environmental disclosures written. 133 00:05:39,545 --> 00:05:41,565 Um, there, some of them were mines 134 00:05:41,565 --> 00:05:42,685 that were federal projects. 135 00:05:42,685 --> 00:05:45,205 Some of them were projects on state and private land. 136 00:05:45,625 --> 00:05:47,685 Uh, but there were many, many coming 137 00:05:47,825 --> 00:05:50,565 and it seemed like the sort of regulatory environment around 138 00:05:50,565 --> 00:05:53,525 that, at least for one mine raised a lot of questions. 139 00:05:53,945 --> 00:05:56,605 So just so it was fertile ground and we dove in 140 00:05:56,625 --> 00:05:59,605 and fortunately we had a team of very strong, 141 00:05:59,675 --> 00:06:02,845 very passionate reporters in the Howard Center this semester 142 00:06:02,845 --> 00:06:06,045 that we, we decided to delve into this topic who really ran 143 00:06:06,045 --> 00:06:07,925 with it and made that reporting their own. 144 00:06:09,425 --> 00:06:11,765 - Morgan, walk us through some of the basics here. 145 00:06:11,765 --> 00:06:15,125 Number one, why are we seeing this lithium boom right now? 146 00:06:15,705 --> 00:06:17,605 And then why is it so water intensive? 147 00:06:17,605 --> 00:06:18,805 People may hear about mining 148 00:06:18,865 --> 00:06:20,685 and you think you're, you're just taking 149 00:06:21,415 --> 00:06:22,885 rocks outta the ground and that's that. 150 00:06:23,185 --> 00:06:24,965 But there is a lot of 151 00:06:25,695 --> 00:06:28,245 fresh water in particular involved in lithium mining. 152 00:06:29,035 --> 00:06:32,085 - Yeah, so really why we're seeing the lithium boom is, 153 00:06:33,045 --> 00:06:36,085 I mean, the computer, we're recording this on right now, 154 00:06:36,105 --> 00:06:38,245 the AirPods I'm using the phone I have next to me. 155 00:06:38,425 --> 00:06:41,205 All of this stuff that's rechargeable requires lithium, 156 00:06:41,425 --> 00:06:42,925 and that includes electric cars. 157 00:06:43,145 --> 00:06:47,765 So as the, as America is trying to transition away from gas 158 00:06:47,765 --> 00:06:51,325 and oil and into electric, we need lithium to do that. 159 00:06:51,945 --> 00:06:55,725 So it's requiring a lot more lithium, and we're hoping, um, 160 00:06:55,745 --> 00:06:58,405 or at least the American government is hoping to have 161 00:06:58,405 --> 00:07:00,125 that sourced here rather than 162 00:07:00,495 --> 00:07:03,085 where it's currently sourced mostly in South America 163 00:07:03,505 --> 00:07:04,645 and then processed in China. 164 00:07:05,665 --> 00:07:09,485 Um, our team member, Alex Appel, really looked into, 165 00:07:10,465 --> 00:07:13,325 um, why this process is so water intensive. 166 00:07:14,345 --> 00:07:18,445 So mines need the water to process the lithium. 167 00:07:18,625 --> 00:07:21,405 So when it's taken out of rock, 168 00:07:22,115 --> 00:07:25,325 it's actually mostly taken out of this kind of mineral rich, 169 00:07:25,575 --> 00:07:28,805 salty water that is technically called brine. 170 00:07:29,745 --> 00:07:32,725 And, um, to process all of that, 171 00:07:33,105 --> 00:07:34,525 you need fresh water to do that. 172 00:07:35,265 --> 00:07:38,805 Um, and we use fresh water mostly just 173 00:07:38,805 --> 00:07:40,925 because we know how it reacts chemically 174 00:07:41,545 --> 00:07:42,925 at a commercial level. 175 00:07:43,255 --> 00:07:46,325 There are mines that are looking into using like salt water 176 00:07:46,345 --> 00:07:48,125 and other types of water, but really 177 00:07:48,195 --> 00:07:50,205 what we're using right now is fresh water. 178 00:07:51,385 --> 00:07:54,925 Um, in terms of recycling it, there is a couple 179 00:07:54,925 --> 00:07:56,765 of California mines that are looking into it, 180 00:07:57,265 --> 00:07:58,725 but nothing developed yet. 181 00:07:59,355 --> 00:08:03,445 - Awesome. Um, Emma, so Morgan mentioned that we get a lot 182 00:08:03,445 --> 00:08:04,965 of lithium from South America. 183 00:08:05,505 --> 00:08:08,885 Um, which country does the US get the most 184 00:08:08,885 --> 00:08:10,165 of its lithium from 185 00:08:10,425 --> 00:08:13,445 and do we have any domestic lithium mining? 186 00:08:14,675 --> 00:08:18,405 - Yeah, so we're gonna mention the primary place 187 00:08:18,405 --> 00:08:21,725 that we're getting our, um, lithium batteries 188 00:08:21,725 --> 00:08:23,845 and lithium production from is actually from China. 189 00:08:23,855 --> 00:08:27,565 About 90% of our lithium battery imports currently are 190 00:08:27,565 --> 00:08:29,005 coming from China, um, 191 00:08:29,385 --> 00:08:31,365 and a few other different Asian countries. 192 00:08:31,585 --> 00:08:35,135 Um, but China is the majority of that. 193 00:08:35,355 --> 00:08:39,615 Um, and yeah, we do have one, um, we have had one, 194 00:08:40,595 --> 00:08:42,855 um, location in the US called Silver Peak. 195 00:08:43,155 --> 00:08:45,695 Um, our team member, Jordan Gerard did most 196 00:08:45,695 --> 00:08:47,575 of her work specifically on Silver Peak 197 00:08:47,955 --> 00:08:49,975 and looking into the environmental impacts of that. 198 00:08:50,435 --> 00:08:51,895 Um, but they're producing, 199 00:08:52,075 --> 00:08:54,495 or they have been producing up to this point about 1% 200 00:08:54,715 --> 00:08:58,605 of the world's Lithium, um, which is pretty impressive 201 00:08:58,605 --> 00:09:00,125 for it being just one spot in the us. 202 00:09:00,385 --> 00:09:02,845 Um, but obviously now there's 203 00:09:02,845 --> 00:09:04,005 more popping up all over the place. 204 00:09:04,105 --> 00:09:06,165 But, um, yeah, as of right now, 205 00:09:06,265 --> 00:09:08,365 silver Peak is the only one 206 00:09:08,365 --> 00:09:09,565 here, and most of it's from China. 207 00:09:10,545 --> 00:09:13,845 - Lauren, I want to dive into Silver Peak a little bit more, 208 00:09:13,845 --> 00:09:17,445 and it's one of the most impressive bits of reporting here 209 00:09:17,445 --> 00:09:20,605 that the team really showed up with receipts as 210 00:09:20,605 --> 00:09:24,325 to this question of whether the mine at Silver Peak is 211 00:09:25,075 --> 00:09:27,165 impacting the freshwater. 212 00:09:27,465 --> 00:09:32,405 Uh, in the area reporter did a Zoom interview, 213 00:09:33,305 --> 00:09:37,325 uh, and Alber Mall, the Marle, the owner of the mine, 214 00:09:37,805 --> 00:09:41,165 followed up with a statement in bold albermarle operations 215 00:09:41,425 --> 00:09:45,205 do not underline impact the freshwater aquifers 216 00:09:45,345 --> 00:09:46,525 in, in the area. 217 00:09:47,585 --> 00:09:51,205 And yet that is immediately followed up, uh, with, 218 00:09:51,425 --> 00:09:52,485 uh, the receipts. 219 00:09:52,625 --> 00:09:55,285 Uh, and wa walk me through that reporting process 220 00:09:55,705 --> 00:10:00,045 and what Almar did in effect tell the Securities Exchange 221 00:10:00,045 --> 00:10:01,965 Commission about its fresh water use? 222 00:10:02,475 --> 00:10:04,965 - Yeah, no, this is, thank you for, for that question. 223 00:10:05,205 --> 00:10:06,965 'cause this is one of the findings I think 224 00:10:06,965 --> 00:10:09,245 that we're probably, uh, most proud of. 225 00:10:09,385 --> 00:10:13,005 And I was actually just speaking with a, um, a classroom 226 00:10:13,005 --> 00:10:15,405 of students about, you know, something quite similar. 227 00:10:15,755 --> 00:10:18,765 This is what I call a hiding in plain sight discovery. 228 00:10:19,545 --> 00:10:23,045 So the, the, um, information about 229 00:10:23,505 --> 00:10:26,885 how much water was being taken from the ground in Nevada is 230 00:10:26,885 --> 00:10:29,725 not, we weren't out there making measurements in the ground. 231 00:10:29,945 --> 00:10:32,725 We weren't, you know, trying to unearth something 232 00:10:32,725 --> 00:10:34,445 that nobody had had known before. 233 00:10:34,815 --> 00:10:39,005 There are county, um, people, there are, there are jobs, 234 00:10:39,015 --> 00:10:42,765 there are there, there is a, like, um, mechanism 235 00:10:42,985 --> 00:10:45,485 for actually doing these measurements on a regular basis. 236 00:10:46,025 --> 00:10:50,765 Um, and so we found an annual report from one of the sort 237 00:10:50,765 --> 00:10:54,685 of regional water, um, councils in Nevada, uh, that, 238 00:10:54,795 --> 00:10:57,005 that basically monitors, um, 239 00:10:57,695 --> 00:10:59,565 water groundwater across the state 240 00:10:59,985 --> 00:11:02,245 and just right there in plain sight, this report, 241 00:11:02,245 --> 00:11:04,165 which is available to the public, stated 242 00:11:04,195 --> 00:11:06,805 that groundwater measurements throughout the sort 243 00:11:06,805 --> 00:11:09,965 of Silver Peak area, um, had decreased significantly. 244 00:11:10,745 --> 00:11:13,805 And the, the hydrologist, the water scientist behind 245 00:11:13,805 --> 00:11:16,645 that report was very direct in his statement saying, 246 00:11:16,665 --> 00:11:18,885 and this is attributable to the, the mine, 247 00:11:19,065 --> 00:11:20,525 the lithium mine at Silver Peak. 248 00:11:21,105 --> 00:11:24,445 So we had the work of a, of a scientist who had previously, 249 00:11:24,505 --> 00:11:26,605 you know, had spent I think 30 years working 250 00:11:26,665 --> 00:11:28,285 for the US Geological Survey. 251 00:11:28,825 --> 00:11:32,085 So somebody, a very credentialed person, um, was, 252 00:11:32,185 --> 00:11:35,125 was taking these measurements and the county knew about it. 253 00:11:35,585 --> 00:11:40,045 Um, but actually the state, um, gives out, you know, 254 00:11:40,045 --> 00:11:41,205 something that we learned through the 255 00:11:41,205 --> 00:11:42,445 process of our reporting. 256 00:11:42,835 --> 00:11:46,845 When the state gives out water rights to industry, um, 257 00:11:46,945 --> 00:11:50,765 to other stakeholders, it's based on an antiquated system 258 00:11:50,905 --> 00:11:53,925 that's not actually related to 259 00:11:53,925 --> 00:11:55,285 how much water is really available. 260 00:11:55,905 --> 00:11:57,925 Um, and that was kind of one of the discoveries. 261 00:11:57,925 --> 00:11:59,605 And you're, you're seeing a lot more of this in, 262 00:11:59,605 --> 00:12:01,565 in the media kind of across the country. 263 00:12:01,775 --> 00:12:05,285 We're learning that groundwater management across the board 264 00:12:05,345 --> 00:12:08,485 in America is, is is being done very poorly. 265 00:12:09,145 --> 00:12:11,845 Um, we don't really have a strong infrastructure for that. 266 00:12:11,985 --> 00:12:14,565 And Nevada is, is kind of, is no different. 267 00:12:14,825 --> 00:12:16,725 It seems that Nevada is starting to, you know, 268 00:12:16,725 --> 00:12:19,925 even I think Morgan, um, if it was either you 269 00:12:19,925 --> 00:12:21,285 or Jordan Gerard who spoke to, 270 00:12:21,285 --> 00:12:23,325 I think it was Jordan actually who spoke to Nile Pennington 271 00:12:23,545 --> 00:12:26,485 as we were getting near to publication, um, about, you know, 272 00:12:26,485 --> 00:12:29,125 we're not there, there's a real problem with the amount 273 00:12:29,145 --> 00:12:30,205 of data that's available. 274 00:12:30,265 --> 00:12:32,685 And he said, yeah, Nevada needs to measure, go measure 275 00:12:32,705 --> 00:12:34,165 how much water it really has so 276 00:12:34,165 --> 00:12:37,325 that we can start working off of informed, um, numbers 277 00:12:37,425 --> 00:12:39,485 and make informed decisions instead 278 00:12:39,485 --> 00:12:40,805 of using this antiquated system. 279 00:12:41,185 --> 00:12:43,605 Uh, but Almar basically said, you know, we're allowed 280 00:12:43,605 --> 00:12:45,125 to use, we have the permits, the, 281 00:12:45,185 --> 00:12:46,445 the state water engineer has 282 00:12:46,445 --> 00:12:47,725 allowed us to take this much water. 283 00:12:47,825 --> 00:12:51,645 So what we're doing is within our rights, it's legal, it's, 284 00:12:51,675 --> 00:12:54,765 it's under the sort of, you know, government oversight 285 00:12:55,105 --> 00:12:56,925 and yet you've got these different entities 286 00:12:56,925 --> 00:12:58,805 and government not really speaking to each other, 287 00:12:58,905 --> 00:13:02,485 not sharing data and big data, you know, big data gaps. 288 00:13:02,905 --> 00:13:05,125 So that's what we really, uh, were able to uncover. 289 00:13:06,195 --> 00:13:09,285 - Awesome. Morgan, Lauren just mentioned, um, 290 00:13:09,505 --> 00:13:11,125 the water issues at Silver Peak. 291 00:13:11,145 --> 00:13:14,365 Are there any other lessons from that mine that sort 292 00:13:14,365 --> 00:13:15,405 of apply to mining, 293 00:13:15,435 --> 00:13:17,005 that should apply to mining going forward? 294 00:13:18,005 --> 00:13:21,205 - I mean, I think Lauren really touched on it pretty well is 295 00:13:21,205 --> 00:13:25,205 that there's a lot about mining that 296 00:13:26,025 --> 00:13:29,005 we know about in terms of scientific research, 297 00:13:29,005 --> 00:13:31,005 but we're not necessarily legislating. 298 00:13:31,145 --> 00:13:34,405 So kind of there's a large gap that we're seeing between 299 00:13:34,795 --> 00:13:36,365 what the legislation allows versus 300 00:13:36,395 --> 00:13:38,805 what environmentalists are kind of advocating for. 301 00:13:39,185 --> 00:13:41,405 And not even just environmentalists use water scientists 302 00:13:41,405 --> 00:13:44,645 that, you know, it is their job to go out there 303 00:13:44,945 --> 00:13:46,365 and keep track of all of this, 304 00:13:46,985 --> 00:13:50,485 and they're kind of like, yo, what is going on? 305 00:13:50,745 --> 00:13:53,365 Why, why aren't more people concerned about this? 306 00:13:53,765 --> 00:13:56,685 I mean, you know, Nile's been measuring that same well 307 00:13:56,825 --> 00:13:57,885 for decades. 308 00:13:58,625 --> 00:13:59,845 Um, as we, 309 00:13:59,985 --> 00:14:03,565 as we wrote given giving it the old Nile Pennington test 310 00:14:03,865 --> 00:14:06,245 and just seeing year after year 311 00:14:06,245 --> 00:14:09,205 after year, that rock hitting further 312 00:14:09,385 --> 00:14:12,325 and further down until now it's not even hitting 313 00:14:12,325 --> 00:14:13,645 water 'cause there's no water left. 314 00:14:15,155 --> 00:14:16,485 - Emma, I wanna bring you back in 315 00:14:16,545 --> 00:14:18,085 and ask about Thacker Pass. 316 00:14:18,265 --> 00:14:22,085 Uh, it's a name that probably a lot of listeners here 317 00:14:23,045 --> 00:14:24,845 recognize due to, uh, the efforts 318 00:14:24,845 --> 00:14:26,965 of the Reno Sparks Indian Colony 319 00:14:26,985 --> 00:14:31,565 and the Summit Lake Ute tribe, uh, pushing to stop the mine, 320 00:14:31,565 --> 00:14:33,565 which is located on the site 321 00:14:33,625 --> 00:14:38,365 or the very least very near an 1865 massacre, uh, 322 00:14:39,105 --> 00:14:40,845 so far it looks like that, uh, 323 00:14:41,035 --> 00:14:42,965 that fight they, they are losing. 324 00:14:44,035 --> 00:14:47,245 What makes Thacker Pass so important 325 00:14:47,305 --> 00:14:50,205 or such a big deal in terms of 326 00:14:51,035 --> 00:14:52,525 lithium development in the us? 327 00:14:53,795 --> 00:14:55,925 - Yeah, and first I would just say that as far 328 00:14:55,945 --> 00:14:58,685 as the tribal issues going on there, Noelle Smith 329 00:14:58,865 --> 00:15:02,605 and Pacey Garcia have ran a really great article about that, 330 00:15:02,785 --> 00:15:05,085 um, specifically during our project. 331 00:15:05,505 --> 00:15:09,765 Um, but yeah, as far as domestic lithium, um, 332 00:15:09,835 --> 00:15:12,805 development Thacker paths is gonna be incredibly important. 333 00:15:12,835 --> 00:15:16,325 It's going to decrease our dependence on foreign, um, 334 00:15:16,685 --> 00:15:19,245 companies significantly, significantly, um, 335 00:15:19,385 --> 00:15:21,925 for both lithium production but, and battery manufacturing. 336 00:15:22,665 --> 00:15:26,005 Um, so Lithium Americas is actually signed a huge deal 337 00:15:26,035 --> 00:15:30,085 with their largest stakeholder, um, general Motors. 338 00:15:30,825 --> 00:15:34,365 Um, and they have basically, um, 339 00:15:35,845 --> 00:15:38,045 verbally have told, guaranteed, I guess, um, 340 00:15:38,075 --> 00:15:40,485 that everything will be kept domestically. 341 00:15:41,025 --> 00:15:44,745 Um, everything from production to, you know, 342 00:15:44,745 --> 00:15:47,265 selling these products is gonna be within the us. 343 00:15:47,525 --> 00:15:51,515 Uh, now technically nothing actually stops 'em from selling 344 00:15:51,825 --> 00:15:53,035 outside of our borders. 345 00:15:53,295 --> 00:15:56,715 Um, nothing legally would stop them from doing that. 346 00:15:57,135 --> 00:15:58,795 Um, and there might be good reason to even think 347 00:15:58,795 --> 00:16:00,955 that they would, there might be a broader market for 348 00:16:00,955 --> 00:16:03,115 that out there, um, especially since a lot of their 349 00:16:04,585 --> 00:16:07,225 locations, um, for manufacturing these batteries are 350 00:16:07,415 --> 00:16:08,625 outside of the us. 351 00:16:08,925 --> 00:16:11,585 Um, but that being said, they have 352 00:16:13,105 --> 00:16:14,905 invested a lot in, um, 353 00:16:16,375 --> 00:16:18,545 expanding the US EV production. 354 00:16:19,125 --> 00:16:23,705 So, um, you know, that is definitely encouraging 355 00:16:23,885 --> 00:16:26,785 and it definitely shows us that, um, 356 00:16:27,355 --> 00:16:29,425 there are efforts being made to make sure 357 00:16:29,425 --> 00:16:31,065 that these products stay within the us. 358 00:16:31,285 --> 00:16:33,265 - And then what's the groundwater situation 359 00:16:33,335 --> 00:16:35,105 potentially at Thacker Pass? 360 00:16:36,955 --> 00:16:40,255 - Um, well, as far as groundwater, um, 361 00:16:41,665 --> 00:16:43,835 basically we've been, um, 362 00:16:43,855 --> 00:16:45,915 so Tim Crowley was someone we spoke to over there. 363 00:16:46,025 --> 00:16:49,395 He's the VP for government affairs over at Lithium Americas. 364 00:16:49,855 --> 00:16:52,515 Um, and according to him, um, 365 00:16:53,525 --> 00:16:57,915 there won't be any damage, um, any negative effects 366 00:16:57,915 --> 00:17:00,435 to people living in the area surrounding Thater Pass. 367 00:17:00,655 --> 00:17:03,915 Um, though he does confirm that there will be 10 feet 368 00:17:04,015 --> 00:17:07,435 of drawdown, um, in the groundwater levels. 369 00:17:08,015 --> 00:17:11,185 And so, you know, that can create, you know, 370 00:17:11,185 --> 00:17:12,705 different envir, there's different environmental 371 00:17:12,705 --> 00:17:15,745 implications for that and how that could affect the soil, 372 00:17:16,205 --> 00:17:17,705 um, groundwater quality. 373 00:17:18,165 --> 00:17:21,105 Um, but he ensures, he stated 374 00:17:21,135 --> 00:17:23,025 that there will be no negative effects. 375 00:17:23,765 --> 00:17:27,745 Um, and so that water is going to be sourced primarily from, 376 00:17:29,175 --> 00:17:32,715 um, they had bought a ranch that's in a nearby town that, 377 00:17:33,655 --> 00:17:35,435 um, the farmer there was growing alfalfa. 378 00:17:35,615 --> 00:17:39,595 And so when that farmer had sold them his ranch, he also 379 00:17:39,595 --> 00:17:40,955 with it sold his water rights. 380 00:17:41,375 --> 00:17:45,155 And so Lithium Americas has technically bought 22% more 381 00:17:45,725 --> 00:17:47,555 water rights than they plan on using. 382 00:17:48,255 --> 00:17:50,525 Um, which in, you know, according 383 00:17:50,525 --> 00:17:52,045 to them will be a great thing 384 00:17:52,045 --> 00:17:53,525 because that means that less water 385 00:17:53,525 --> 00:17:54,805 will be used in the long run. 386 00:17:55,585 --> 00:17:59,425 Um, but you know, it's hard to guarantee that 387 00:17:59,955 --> 00:18:03,305 there won't be any negative impacts when there's 10 feet 388 00:18:03,305 --> 00:18:06,425 of drawdown happening within several miles of a radius 389 00:18:06,485 --> 00:18:07,865 of the facility. 390 00:18:08,775 --> 00:18:10,945 - Emma, quick dumb question for you. 391 00:18:11,045 --> 00:18:13,385 Is that groundwater or Colorado River Water? 392 00:18:14,575 --> 00:18:17,115 - So this is going to be, so it's groundwater. 393 00:18:17,455 --> 00:18:19,195 Um, so yeah, their, 394 00:18:19,195 --> 00:18:21,435 their primary water source from the farmer 395 00:18:21,495 --> 00:18:22,715 is gonna be groundwater well water. 396 00:18:23,375 --> 00:18:27,115 Um, but then they also, that's a primary source, 397 00:18:27,215 --> 00:18:30,515 but they will also be taking from the Quinn River Basin, um, 398 00:18:30,615 --> 00:18:34,595 in Nevada as well, so that, um, 399 00:18:35,885 --> 00:18:37,395 those are their primary places. 400 00:18:37,535 --> 00:18:40,555 So the Colorado River doesn't necessarily have a strong 401 00:18:40,555 --> 00:18:44,395 connection as far as use to this project specifically, um, 402 00:18:44,615 --> 00:18:46,075 but definitely for others. Yeah. 403 00:18:46,465 --> 00:18:48,715 - Yeah. And you know, of, of the dozens 404 00:18:48,715 --> 00:18:50,675 of projects we looked at, based on 405 00:18:50,675 --> 00:18:53,075 where they are in this sort of regulatory and, 406 00:18:53,075 --> 00:18:55,995 and permitting process, you actually don't even disclose 407 00:18:56,095 --> 00:18:57,755 how much water you're going to use 408 00:18:58,015 --> 00:18:59,515 and where you're going to get it from 409 00:18:59,965 --> 00:19:01,875 until pretty late in the process 410 00:19:02,255 --> 00:19:04,835 of actually getting all the formal approvals. 411 00:19:05,135 --> 00:19:08,315 So you can be pretty far into a project in the middle 412 00:19:08,315 --> 00:19:10,955 of the desert in New Mexico or Arizona 413 00:19:11,095 --> 00:19:14,795 or Nevada, um, where there's no water in sight. 414 00:19:15,175 --> 00:19:18,275 Um, and, and have already invested quite a bit of money 415 00:19:18,375 --> 00:19:19,875 and resources and time 416 00:19:20,215 --> 00:19:23,235 and bought up claims to lithium deposits in 417 00:19:23,235 --> 00:19:26,235 that area without having any requirements to start, 418 00:19:26,295 --> 00:19:27,275 you know, thinking about where 419 00:19:27,275 --> 00:19:28,275 you're gonna get the water from. 420 00:19:28,895 --> 00:19:30,495 - I mean, it's not even just buying up claims, 421 00:19:30,725 --> 00:19:32,375 it's also getting other people's money. 422 00:19:32,755 --> 00:19:35,975 Um, a lot of these projects are making pretty big promises 423 00:19:35,975 --> 00:19:40,695 to their investors before, like Lauren said, guaranteeing 424 00:19:40,695 --> 00:19:43,295 that they have a source of water to even operate the mine 425 00:19:43,295 --> 00:19:44,535 that they're promising to investors. 426 00:19:45,615 --> 00:19:49,975 - Hmm. Um, Emma, returning to Thacker pass briefly, the, 427 00:19:50,485 --> 00:19:54,455 when you talk about the drawdown, is that from the brine 428 00:19:54,455 --> 00:19:55,735 that they're going to be extracting 429 00:19:55,755 --> 00:19:57,815 or is that from fresh water? So 430 00:19:57,815 --> 00:19:58,815 - That'll be fresh water. 431 00:19:58,815 --> 00:20:00,615 Thacker Pass is a hard rock mine, 432 00:20:00,615 --> 00:20:03,415 so they actually won't be using any of that saltwater brine. 433 00:20:04,035 --> 00:20:08,805 Um, so yeah, when we talk about draw down, that's literally 434 00:20:08,805 --> 00:20:12,205 to visually explain it, them pumping water from the ground, 435 00:20:12,205 --> 00:20:15,845 freshwater from the ground, um, to a lot of 436 00:20:15,845 --> 00:20:17,845 what they're using it for is just gonna be 437 00:20:17,865 --> 00:20:22,045 for dust mitigation and, um, part of their, 438 00:20:22,205 --> 00:20:24,445 'cause they have a processing facility on their site, 439 00:20:24,505 --> 00:20:26,045 and so that will also be used for that. 440 00:20:26,665 --> 00:20:27,685 Um, but yeah, 441 00:20:27,715 --> 00:20:29,805 it's literally just gonna be pumped from the ground. 442 00:20:30,425 --> 00:20:33,085 Um, and Tim Crowley has claimed that there will be, 443 00:20:33,465 --> 00:20:36,895 you know, an extent of, um, 444 00:20:37,895 --> 00:20:38,935 reuse in that as well. 445 00:20:39,755 --> 00:20:41,975 Um, and that's something that, you know, kind 446 00:20:41,975 --> 00:20:44,375 of Morgan had touched on it, there's not necessarily like a 447 00:20:44,375 --> 00:20:46,095 super refined system for that yet, 448 00:20:46,195 --> 00:20:50,885 but a lot of these companies are promising, um, this type 449 00:20:50,885 --> 00:20:52,485 of reuse and recycling of the water. 450 00:20:52,965 --> 00:20:55,845 - I, I, I wanna make sure we make more super refined jokes 451 00:20:55,875 --> 00:20:57,205 here in this mining episode. 452 00:20:57,485 --> 00:21:00,485 , uh, one last Thacker pass question. 453 00:21:00,745 --> 00:21:03,685 Uh, speaking of refining is the bi the byproducts, 454 00:21:03,685 --> 00:21:06,245 the waste called, uh, mine tailings? 455 00:21:06,585 --> 00:21:10,085 Uh, what is the tailings situation looking like? 456 00:21:10,195 --> 00:21:11,365 It's gonna be at Thacker Pass? 457 00:21:12,555 --> 00:21:15,805 - Yeah, so the tailing situation was really interesting 458 00:21:15,805 --> 00:21:19,485 to look into because, um, I mean, the biggest thing that 459 00:21:20,125 --> 00:21:21,565 I really wanted to portray in that story is 460 00:21:21,565 --> 00:21:23,165 that tailings last forever, 461 00:21:23,625 --> 00:21:27,445 and they can contain toxic materials, radioactive materials, 462 00:21:27,585 --> 00:21:31,005 um, and specifically at Thacker Pass that will be happening, 463 00:21:31,505 --> 00:21:35,325 um, in fact, they're gonna be producing 272 million metric 464 00:21:35,325 --> 00:21:37,885 tons of tailings that will be containing this toxic waste. 465 00:21:38,425 --> 00:21:41,285 Um, some in levels that they don't actually know for sure 466 00:21:41,345 --> 00:21:45,805 yet, um, as far as their, its radioactivity concentrations. 467 00:21:46,105 --> 00:21:48,845 Um, and so obviously this is a huge issue 468 00:21:48,845 --> 00:21:50,725 and a big part of what I was looking at, um, 469 00:21:51,395 --> 00:21:55,525 that the spring, um, kind of how we developed our stories, 470 00:21:55,525 --> 00:21:57,685 some of the students from the spring semester had looked 471 00:21:57,685 --> 00:21:59,765 into was this idea that the way 472 00:21:59,765 --> 00:22:03,965 that they'd be containing their tailings is unsafe. 473 00:22:04,225 --> 00:22:06,525 Um, obviously we get more into detail about 474 00:22:06,525 --> 00:22:08,925 that in the story, but, so that was something 475 00:22:08,925 --> 00:22:11,085 that really drew to my attention 476 00:22:11,085 --> 00:22:15,045 because if it's unsafe, you have 272 metric tons 477 00:22:15,105 --> 00:22:18,525 of tailings, um, that could 478 00:22:18,555 --> 00:22:20,805 - Sitting out there getting rained on 479 00:22:20,965 --> 00:22:22,045 leaching, who knows where 480 00:22:22,045 --> 00:22:23,045 - Exactly. 481 00:22:23,045 --> 00:22:23,845 And so that is, um, 482 00:22:23,945 --> 00:22:26,885 the anticipated production over their 40 year mine life. 483 00:22:27,505 --> 00:22:31,355 Um, but even still, that's a huge amount 484 00:22:31,495 --> 00:22:34,955 and relatively it is still a big amount compared to 485 00:22:34,955 --> 00:22:36,195 what we see at other mines as well. 486 00:22:36,745 --> 00:22:38,835 - Yeah, and I think one of the really interesting things 487 00:22:38,835 --> 00:22:40,435 Emma did, but you should talk about Emma, 488 00:22:40,655 --> 00:22:42,235 is just seeing are there any rules, 489 00:22:42,655 --> 00:22:45,035 any laws about tailings across the country? 490 00:22:45,825 --> 00:22:49,115 - Yeah, so no, I mean, yeah, that's the big thing we found 491 00:22:49,115 --> 00:22:51,755 that there are no federally federal protections 492 00:22:51,855 --> 00:22:55,195 or, um, protections for citizens surrounding these mines 493 00:22:55,695 --> 00:22:59,475 or federal, um, guidelines really. 494 00:22:59,695 --> 00:23:04,365 Um, you know, there's guidelines globally, like different, 495 00:23:04,625 --> 00:23:07,325 um, basically just suggestions I suppose. 496 00:23:07,505 --> 00:23:09,405 And states have their different rules for that. 497 00:23:09,585 --> 00:23:11,205 Um, some were strict than others. 498 00:23:11,235 --> 00:23:13,805 Some I found had really great management on that. 499 00:23:13,835 --> 00:23:15,005 Some had none. 500 00:23:15,825 --> 00:23:18,405 And so I think the biggest thing that was concerning about 501 00:23:18,405 --> 00:23:22,325 that is that some of these states, there were no, um, 502 00:23:22,885 --> 00:23:24,125 tailings management plans. 503 00:23:24,395 --> 00:23:26,045 They had proposed lithium mines. 504 00:23:26,425 --> 00:23:29,645 Um, and so if that's the case, that's something 505 00:23:29,645 --> 00:23:30,645 that should be happening 506 00:23:31,265 --> 00:23:33,245 before the mine is developed and not after. 507 00:23:33,945 --> 00:23:36,925 Um, especially when, you know, as I said, there 508 00:23:37,555 --> 00:23:40,605 have been thousands of people in the past a hundred years 509 00:23:41,065 --> 00:23:42,885 who have been killed from these collapses. 510 00:23:42,945 --> 00:23:45,605 And most, not notably the burino collapse 511 00:23:45,605 --> 00:23:48,085 that happened in Brazil, um, a few years ago 512 00:23:48,085 --> 00:23:50,165 that killed 300 people nearly. 513 00:23:50,545 --> 00:23:54,845 And, um, you know, there will be decades if not hundreds 514 00:23:54,845 --> 00:23:58,125 of years, um, of damage to their land, their soil, 515 00:23:58,125 --> 00:24:00,285 their crops, and so yeah, obviously it's, um, 516 00:24:00,955 --> 00:24:02,205 it's a pretty big deal 517 00:24:02,345 --> 00:24:05,605 and it happens more commonly than people think. 518 00:24:05,625 --> 00:24:06,965 And I had never heard about it before 519 00:24:07,025 --> 00:24:10,215 and I didn't know that it was even a thing, 520 00:24:10,555 --> 00:24:12,575 but, you know, it's a big deal. So, 521 00:24:12,995 --> 00:24:15,295 - Um, Emma, where does Nevada fall in terms 522 00:24:15,315 --> 00:24:17,615 of state regulations for tailings? 523 00:24:18,315 --> 00:24:22,155 - Um, the companies are definitely, um, 524 00:24:23,025 --> 00:24:25,315 they are able to kind of set their own rules. 525 00:24:25,395 --> 00:24:26,635 I, I guess is probably the best way to say it. 526 00:24:26,715 --> 00:24:29,315 I think that they have, um, decent 527 00:24:29,875 --> 00:24:32,675 regulatory systems in general for mining compared 528 00:24:32,695 --> 00:24:36,675 to some other states, but they don't necessarily have laws 529 00:24:36,675 --> 00:24:39,275 pertaining very specifically to tailings management. 530 00:24:39,955 --> 00:24:42,155 A lot of times, and this is what I found in a lot of states, 531 00:24:42,265 --> 00:24:46,675 that, um, tailings are kind of a part of a broader category 532 00:24:46,735 --> 00:24:51,395 of waste and, um, sometimes there's no differentiation 533 00:24:51,505 --> 00:24:56,045 between, um, chemical waste versus, 534 00:24:57,105 --> 00:24:59,925 you know, um, you know, 535 00:24:59,965 --> 00:25:01,045 non-radioactive versus 536 00:25:01,045 --> 00:25:02,405 radioactive waste, that kind of thing. 537 00:25:02,405 --> 00:25:03,885 And that's something that's important too, 538 00:25:03,885 --> 00:25:06,885 because all these waste need to be handled differently. 539 00:25:07,035 --> 00:25:10,165 They have different effects when, um, there's exposure. 540 00:25:10,545 --> 00:25:12,005 And so that was something 541 00:25:12,005 --> 00:25:13,525 that was interesting about tailings, is that it was kind 542 00:25:13,525 --> 00:25:16,085 of in this collective group of sometimes not even just 543 00:25:16,085 --> 00:25:20,375 waste, sometimes it just was in the category of, um, 544 00:25:20,915 --> 00:25:23,615 you know, kind of just their, I forget the word for it, 545 00:25:23,615 --> 00:25:25,495 but they're just kind of rock waste, which I guess 546 00:25:26,375 --> 00:25:28,315 is entirely, that's even more broad. 547 00:25:28,815 --> 00:25:30,715 And so that's something that, um, 548 00:25:31,195 --> 00:25:32,635 I think Nevada is also doing. 549 00:25:32,775 --> 00:25:33,775 So 550 00:25:34,295 --> 00:25:36,395 - One of the things I really appreciated about this piece, 551 00:25:37,075 --> 00:25:39,635 starting with these very high profile examples, 552 00:25:40,055 --> 00:25:44,115 but then pointing out that these problems are going 553 00:25:44,115 --> 00:25:45,515 to scale up rapidly 554 00:25:46,175 --> 00:25:50,395 and you, your, your team, Lauren discovered 72 555 00:25:51,475 --> 00:25:53,835 proposed lithium mines pending in the US right now. 556 00:25:54,215 --> 00:25:58,875 Of those 72, 40 of them are in Nevada, 557 00:25:59,545 --> 00:26:01,715 I've never seen that number collected in one place before. 558 00:26:01,735 --> 00:26:02,955 How how'd you put that together? 559 00:26:04,435 --> 00:26:07,085 - Yeah, isn't that wild? Um, there we weren't able 560 00:26:07,085 --> 00:26:09,525 to find a place where that number had been collected either, 561 00:26:09,545 --> 00:26:11,285 and we looked , we looked quite a bit. 562 00:26:11,625 --> 00:26:15,165 Um, so we did the sort of, you know, the, the boots 563 00:26:15,165 --> 00:26:18,085 and leather work of, of reporters, um, you know, 564 00:26:18,085 --> 00:26:21,765 that reporters have done for generations of, of trying 565 00:26:21,865 --> 00:26:22,965 to determine what 566 00:26:22,965 --> 00:26:25,285 that number would be based upon our own research. 567 00:26:25,825 --> 00:26:28,725 So, um, you know, Morgan and Emma were a big part of this. 568 00:26:28,745 --> 00:26:31,005 In addition to the, to our, you know, the rest of the team, 569 00:26:31,005 --> 00:26:34,565 which was a, as a total group of 15 reporters, um, 570 00:26:35,345 --> 00:26:39,925 we looked online as much as we can for media reports 571 00:26:39,995 --> 00:26:42,565 that suggested that there was something kind 572 00:26:42,565 --> 00:26:44,245 of in the works in a, in an area. 573 00:26:44,505 --> 00:26:45,765 And then we, we dug 574 00:26:45,825 --> 00:26:50,045 to find if there were any actual filings done by the company 575 00:26:50,395 --> 00:26:51,645 regarding the project so 576 00:26:51,645 --> 00:26:53,525 that we could vet if the project was real or not. 577 00:26:53,865 --> 00:26:56,525 So we didn't base our number just on finding media reports. 578 00:26:56,525 --> 00:27:00,205 We based our number on using media reports as, as sort 579 00:27:00,205 --> 00:27:02,485 of like a, what I would call a breadcrumb trail 580 00:27:02,785 --> 00:27:04,125 and then trying to follow the bread 581 00:27:04,275 --> 00:27:05,605 breadcrumbs home somewhere. 582 00:27:06,025 --> 00:27:07,765 And so we found technical reports, 583 00:27:07,905 --> 00:27:11,885 we found environmental disclosures, we found SEC, um, 584 00:27:12,065 --> 00:27:16,085 you know, uh, corporate, uh, filings, financial filings, um, 585 00:27:16,155 --> 00:27:18,205 that describes these projects 586 00:27:18,305 --> 00:27:19,565 and all the sort of various stages. 587 00:27:19,595 --> 00:27:21,685 Some of them were just in exploratory phases. 588 00:27:21,685 --> 00:27:24,445 Some of them were farther along in the permitting process 589 00:27:24,745 --> 00:27:26,845 and had already reached the point in their process 590 00:27:26,895 --> 00:27:29,165 where they had to identify the source of water. 591 00:27:29,565 --> 00:27:31,445 I think of the 72 mines and work, 592 00:27:31,445 --> 00:27:32,845 and you'll be able to correct me on this, 593 00:27:32,845 --> 00:27:36,415 of the 72 mines we identified, was it less than 10 594 00:27:36,635 --> 00:27:39,055 or around 10 that had already disclosed 595 00:27:39,235 --> 00:27:41,825 how much water they would be using. 596 00:27:42,895 --> 00:27:44,145 It's a very low number. 597 00:27:44,205 --> 00:27:47,185 And so to know these, these mines are, are coming 598 00:27:47,645 --> 00:27:48,945 and they're coming in different states 599 00:27:49,005 --> 00:27:50,865 and they're, some of them are on state land, some 600 00:27:50,865 --> 00:27:51,865 of them are on federal land, 601 00:27:51,865 --> 00:27:53,025 some of them are on private land. 602 00:27:53,125 --> 00:27:55,465 So their sort of regulatory journeys will, 603 00:27:55,495 --> 00:27:58,305 will vary depending on all those different criteria. 604 00:27:59,165 --> 00:28:01,905 But there's a lot of incentives from the government 605 00:28:02,165 --> 00:28:04,825 to get these mines online as quickly as possible 606 00:28:05,285 --> 00:28:09,345 and get them extracting lithium in its large, you know, 607 00:28:09,345 --> 00:28:10,705 quantities as possible. 608 00:28:11,125 --> 00:28:13,745 Um, so we really did the, the labor of, 609 00:28:13,885 --> 00:28:16,665 of pulling together all of these different reports, 610 00:28:17,345 --> 00:28:20,985 vetting them and, and determining, uh, this number of 72. 611 00:28:21,565 --> 00:28:23,345 - Um, Morgan, did you have a number 612 00:28:23,365 --> 00:28:24,385 you were gonna pull up there? 613 00:28:24,885 --> 00:28:28,705 - Yes. So the number of mines 614 00:28:28,705 --> 00:28:30,585 that specified the amount of water 615 00:28:30,585 --> 00:28:34,585 that they would need was only 17 out of, um, 616 00:28:34,685 --> 00:28:35,945 the 72 that we looked at. 617 00:28:35,965 --> 00:28:38,265 And then the number of mindset specified, um, 618 00:28:39,295 --> 00:28:43,825 that they would be using up a water source was six, 619 00:28:44,165 --> 00:28:45,265 is what we have on hand. 620 00:28:45,645 --> 00:28:47,265 - Wow. So they came out 621 00:28:47,265 --> 00:28:50,145 and said they're gonna completely use up a, the water, 622 00:28:50,645 --> 00:28:53,025 - Not necessarily completely use up, but use like a 623 00:28:53,255 --> 00:28:53,945 - Okay. In 624 00:28:53,945 --> 00:28:54,945 - That . 625 00:28:54,945 --> 00:28:57,065 - Mm. Um, Morgan, 626 00:28:57,415 --> 00:28:59,545 tell us a little bit more about those water findings. 627 00:28:59,545 --> 00:29:02,345 You said 17 specified may, something about 628 00:29:02,345 --> 00:29:03,505 how much water they were gonna use. 629 00:29:03,965 --> 00:29:06,025 Um, were you guys able to sort of project 630 00:29:06,085 --> 00:29:07,865 and put together a, an estimate of 631 00:29:07,865 --> 00:29:09,905 how much water they could all use if they 632 00:29:09,905 --> 00:29:10,945 were all to come online? 633 00:29:11,325 --> 00:29:13,425 And if so, um, tell us about that. 634 00:29:14,765 --> 00:29:18,745 - So, um, we really tried , um, 635 00:29:19,565 --> 00:29:21,425 but this kind of goes back to 636 00:29:21,425 --> 00:29:24,225 what Lauren was mentioning earlier about the kind 637 00:29:24,225 --> 00:29:27,545 of wishy-washy federal regulation on water use 638 00:29:27,615 --> 00:29:28,785 when it comes to mining. 639 00:29:29,975 --> 00:29:33,385 When I say 17 mines specified water use, 640 00:29:33,415 --> 00:29:35,225 that could literally just be like, Hey, 641 00:29:35,565 --> 00:29:37,985 we think we're gonna use this much, 642 00:29:38,285 --> 00:29:40,465 or we're gonna use this much per day, 643 00:29:40,465 --> 00:29:43,205 but not necessarily tell us how many days they're operating 644 00:29:43,505 --> 00:29:47,525 or we're going to use this much 645 00:29:47,705 --> 00:29:49,125 for this part of the mine, 646 00:29:49,145 --> 00:29:51,365 but they're not giving like, the full life cycle. 647 00:29:52,185 --> 00:29:56,445 Um, so we really tried, Alex really, really tried 648 00:29:56,505 --> 00:29:59,165 to get us an entire estimate, um, 649 00:30:00,265 --> 00:30:01,965 but we just really weren't able to, 650 00:30:02,205 --> 00:30:04,885 'cause if they're just not required to really kind 651 00:30:04,885 --> 00:30:06,685 of outright tell us, um, 652 00:30:06,865 --> 00:30:09,845 or tell regulators even really throughout most 653 00:30:09,865 --> 00:30:12,485 of the process, um, most of the regulatory process, 654 00:30:12,555 --> 00:30:14,485 both state and federal, um, 655 00:30:14,945 --> 00:30:16,125 how much water they're gonna need. 656 00:30:16,265 --> 00:30:18,125 So unfortunately we were not able to come up 657 00:30:18,125 --> 00:30:19,285 with a cumulative total. 658 00:30:20,105 --> 00:30:21,765 - And with some of these mines, I mean, 659 00:30:21,765 --> 00:30:25,085 they're all using different processes to extract lithium. 660 00:30:25,145 --> 00:30:29,325 So, you know, Emma alluded to Thacker Pass using a ore 661 00:30:29,625 --> 00:30:32,125 or rock, um, you know, sort of format 662 00:30:32,225 --> 00:30:35,205 to extract lithium from the rock in Silver Peak they're 663 00:30:35,205 --> 00:30:38,605 using, they're pulling lithium out of brine water out 664 00:30:38,605 --> 00:30:41,125 of this salty, uh, mineral rich water 665 00:30:41,185 --> 00:30:42,445 and extracting it from there. 666 00:30:42,745 --> 00:30:44,445 So depending on the process they're using, 667 00:30:44,615 --> 00:30:47,765 it'll involve a slightly different, um, you know, amount 668 00:30:47,765 --> 00:30:49,445 of fresh water and technique of fresh water. 669 00:30:50,025 --> 00:30:51,885 Um, you know, there's some people saying they're gonna 670 00:30:52,085 --> 00:30:53,365 recycle water, but they don't know how. 671 00:30:53,985 --> 00:30:58,285 Um, or, um, you know, there, there's, there's other people 672 00:30:58,425 --> 00:31:01,365 who are saying that they plan to use no water, 673 00:31:01,365 --> 00:31:04,805 but we know that's not true because, you know, um, uh, 674 00:31:05,085 --> 00:31:06,965 'cause we've seen how that's done, where we've seen places 675 00:31:06,995 --> 00:31:08,725 that are trying to use new techniques 676 00:31:08,725 --> 00:31:10,525 that have never been done at scale before. 677 00:31:10,685 --> 00:31:12,725 I mean, and, and the salt and sea, uh, 678 00:31:12,725 --> 00:31:14,285 the water use around that project. 679 00:31:14,535 --> 00:31:18,925 Those projects in California, um, they're, uh, they're using 680 00:31:20,275 --> 00:31:21,325 less brine water, 681 00:31:21,425 --> 00:31:24,725 but more fresh water that I think even Silver Peak is using. 682 00:31:25,185 --> 00:31:27,325 Uh, but it looks like they're using very little water 683 00:31:27,325 --> 00:31:29,085 because of the way that their mechanism, way 684 00:31:29,085 --> 00:31:30,445 that the actual pro processing 685 00:31:30,445 --> 00:31:32,085 and extracting of the lithium works. 686 00:31:32,665 --> 00:31:34,845 Um, there's a lot of projects that are going 687 00:31:34,845 --> 00:31:36,325 to extract lithium from clay, 688 00:31:36,945 --> 00:31:38,525 and I don't think there's a process 689 00:31:38,705 --> 00:31:41,245 for extracting lithium from clay that's been agreed upon 690 00:31:41,305 --> 00:31:43,645 as a sort of scientifically sound way to do it. 691 00:31:44,105 --> 00:31:46,405 So again, charging ahead with these projects, 692 00:31:46,405 --> 00:31:48,925 getting permits and would not only do we know, not know 693 00:31:48,925 --> 00:31:50,405 how much water is gonna be used, 694 00:31:50,405 --> 00:31:51,845 but we're not even sure necessarily 695 00:31:51,905 --> 00:31:53,685 how we're gonna get the lithium out to begin with. 696 00:31:54,005 --> 00:31:55,005 697 00:31:55,315 --> 00:31:57,565 - Something else I also wanna add about kind of 698 00:31:57,585 --> 00:32:00,165 how these companies are presenting their water use. 699 00:32:00,675 --> 00:32:03,125 Something that almost everyone on the team had 700 00:32:03,125 --> 00:32:06,325 to get familiar with was the unit of measurement acre feet. 701 00:32:07,185 --> 00:32:11,005 Um, which, you know, we spent time 702 00:32:11,065 --> 00:32:14,565 and Alex spent time kind of memorizing the conversion 703 00:32:14,905 --> 00:32:16,125 to gallons. 704 00:32:17,025 --> 00:32:19,585 And it's a really, 705 00:32:22,295 --> 00:32:23,575 I don't wanna say deceptive, 706 00:32:23,755 --> 00:32:25,975 but it's a way to present the amount of water 707 00:32:25,975 --> 00:32:30,775 that they're using, um, in much smaller means than kind of 708 00:32:30,915 --> 00:32:32,655 how the normal person can kind 709 00:32:32,655 --> 00:32:33,935 of wrap their brain around it. 710 00:32:34,595 --> 00:32:37,335 Um, I'm gonna take the time 711 00:32:37,635 --> 00:32:39,485 to give you the the conversion 712 00:32:39,485 --> 00:32:41,165 that I have no longer memorized. 713 00:32:42,145 --> 00:32:46,005 Um, of course it is a saved 714 00:32:46,185 --> 00:32:47,845 search in my Google. 715 00:32:48,865 --> 00:32:53,795 Um, so one 716 00:32:54,545 --> 00:32:58,635 acre feet is approximately, 717 00:33:00,055 --> 00:33:04,475 um, 326,000 gallons of water, 718 00:33:05,095 --> 00:33:06,795 um, or just of anything. 719 00:33:07,575 --> 00:33:12,335 Um, so that is like such a big 720 00:33:12,335 --> 00:33:15,615 number to just have like a one to that number ratio. 721 00:33:16,195 --> 00:33:19,535 So it was kind of crazy to 722 00:33:20,965 --> 00:33:22,185 be doing these conversions 723 00:33:22,205 --> 00:33:24,905 and be like, oh, this number on paper that they're filing 724 00:33:24,905 --> 00:33:27,425 with the SEC seems like nothing. 725 00:33:27,925 --> 00:33:29,945 And then you do the conversion and it's like, wait a second. 726 00:33:30,245 --> 00:33:31,345 How many swimming? How many 727 00:33:31,345 --> 00:33:32,865 Olympic size swimming pools is that? 728 00:33:32,885 --> 00:33:37,225 How many cups of water can I like, consume of 729 00:33:37,225 --> 00:33:38,305 that amount of water? 730 00:33:38,725 --> 00:33:40,385 Um, so yeah, that's just something 731 00:33:40,385 --> 00:33:41,865 that I thought was really interesting 732 00:33:41,925 --> 00:33:45,505 and kind of was a challenge in writing this was trying 733 00:33:45,605 --> 00:33:49,545 to convey just how much water all of this is 734 00:33:50,165 --> 00:33:52,265 to kind of really wrap your mind around it. 735 00:33:52,905 --> 00:33:54,345 - I I wanna take a step sideways 736 00:33:54,605 --> 00:33:58,345 and ask about the process of reporting this story, uh, 737 00:33:58,525 --> 00:34:00,505 by my count, I think that there are 15 738 00:34:01,345 --> 00:34:04,385 credited reporters on this piece, which gives you a sense 739 00:34:04,405 --> 00:34:07,105 of the scale and importance of it. 740 00:34:07,565 --> 00:34:10,425 Uh, for any of you, maybe this is starting with Lauren 741 00:34:10,565 --> 00:34:12,505 as the editor and professor, uh, 742 00:34:12,525 --> 00:34:17,305 but what's that process like coordinating a team 743 00:34:17,375 --> 00:34:19,265 that big on a project of this scope? 744 00:34:19,895 --> 00:34:21,265 - Yeah, that's a great question. 745 00:34:21,565 --> 00:34:24,545 Um, the, the, the short answer is, it, it ain't easy 746 00:34:25,065 --> 00:34:28,585 , but the, but, uh, let me give you a little context. 747 00:34:28,805 --> 00:34:30,945 So this project was reported 748 00:34:31,005 --> 00:34:32,505 and produced out of the Howard Center 749 00:34:32,565 --> 00:34:35,345 for Investigative Journalism, which is a unit 750 00:34:35,365 --> 00:34:37,465 of the Cronk High School of Journalism at a SU, 751 00:34:37,675 --> 00:34:39,905 where we do original investigative reporting. 752 00:34:40,205 --> 00:34:41,985 And so the students who come through 753 00:34:41,985 --> 00:34:43,265 that program like Morgan 754 00:34:43,405 --> 00:34:47,105 and Emma, um, are, um, were master's students. 755 00:34:47,365 --> 00:34:50,225 Um, they've now graduated, um, who at, 756 00:34:50,285 --> 00:34:53,585 as their capstone experience would enroll in the Howard 757 00:34:53,585 --> 00:34:56,145 Center and participate whatever investigative reporting 758 00:34:56,145 --> 00:34:57,865 project was taking place that semester. 759 00:34:58,325 --> 00:35:00,985 Um, but prior to arriving in the Howard Center, Emma 760 00:35:01,045 --> 00:35:03,985 and Morgan and, and their peers went through a very, very, 761 00:35:04,485 --> 00:35:08,905 um, uh, you know, intentional curriculum to learn about 762 00:35:09,615 --> 00:35:12,425 data and how we use data in investigative reporting. 763 00:35:12,805 --> 00:35:14,865 Uh, they, they study just the techniques 764 00:35:14,865 --> 00:35:16,665 of investigative reporting, how to, how 765 00:35:16,665 --> 00:35:20,265 to do public records requests, how to do depth research and 766 00:35:20,285 --> 00:35:23,465 and depth interviews with sources, how to do, um, sources 767 00:35:23,615 --> 00:35:26,065 with potentially confrontational, um, 768 00:35:26,245 --> 00:35:27,745 or, you know, challenging sources. 769 00:35:28,725 --> 00:35:32,985 Um, how to, how to find, you know, these kinds 770 00:35:32,985 --> 00:35:35,425 of documents from like offices of Inspector General 771 00:35:35,565 --> 00:35:37,885 or the Government Accountability office where, 772 00:35:37,895 --> 00:35:39,685 where government programs are audited. 773 00:35:40,065 --> 00:35:44,405 Um, so they're prepared through this program 774 00:35:44,985 --> 00:35:46,125 to get to the Howard Center 775 00:35:46,225 --> 00:35:48,805 and then dive deeply into an original national 776 00:35:49,245 --> 00:35:50,325 investigative project. 777 00:35:50,625 --> 00:35:54,725 And so managing the group of 15 reporters, yeah, not, 778 00:35:54,825 --> 00:35:56,405 not an easy thing to do, 779 00:35:56,545 --> 00:35:59,485 but what we did is we had students focusing on sort 780 00:35:59,485 --> 00:36:01,525 of different reporting threads at different times. 781 00:36:02,145 --> 00:36:05,525 Um, so every once in a while we would, we would flare out, 782 00:36:05,525 --> 00:36:07,205 people would start kind of go running. 783 00:36:07,585 --> 00:36:10,005 Jordan was our main reporter looking at Silver Peak. 784 00:36:10,425 --> 00:36:14,445 Uh, we had several reporters, um, including Daisy Tanner 785 00:36:14,445 --> 00:36:16,765 who ran with the, the Salton Sea Projects. 786 00:36:17,065 --> 00:36:18,125 Morgan spent a lot 787 00:36:18,125 --> 00:36:20,525 of time looking into some projects in Utah 788 00:36:20,525 --> 00:36:21,525 and North Carolina. 789 00:36:21,675 --> 00:36:24,525 Emma was looking closely at Thacker Pass as, as well 790 00:36:24,525 --> 00:36:26,005 as her colleague Annika Tolas. 791 00:36:26,005 --> 00:36:28,765 So we had, we had a team of people kind of all looking in, 792 00:36:28,765 --> 00:36:30,005 in sort of different directions. 793 00:36:30,465 --> 00:36:32,765 Uh, we had a student, uh, Josh Shim Mki 794 00:36:32,865 --> 00:36:34,765 who really managed the sort of data 795 00:36:35,305 --> 00:36:38,245 for the team pulling together everything we were learning 796 00:36:38,315 --> 00:36:40,005 from the technical reports 797 00:36:40,035 --> 00:36:42,445 that we were acquiring about these different projects, 798 00:36:42,805 --> 00:36:45,805 plotting them on a US map so we can see where they were, 799 00:36:46,095 --> 00:36:48,965 where they were in relation to groundwater basins, 800 00:36:48,965 --> 00:36:50,605 particularly groundwater basins 801 00:36:50,605 --> 00:36:53,365 that may have been already designated as a, 802 00:36:53,385 --> 00:36:55,605 as a groundwater basin that's already stress. 803 00:36:56,025 --> 00:36:58,405 Um, which in Nevada that's most of them . 804 00:36:59,265 --> 00:37:03,245 Um, so it was, you know, it, it involved basically a lot 805 00:37:03,265 --> 00:37:06,725 of like flaring out, everybody run and go, go hunt 806 00:37:07,305 --> 00:37:10,805 and then come back to base and let's, let's see where we got 807 00:37:10,865 --> 00:37:14,045 and then we will re reorient ourselves 808 00:37:14,185 --> 00:37:15,965 and then go do it all again. 809 00:37:16,385 --> 00:37:18,525 So we kind of did that process for a while. 810 00:37:18,705 --> 00:37:22,445 And then we really landed just by the sort of in, you know, 811 00:37:22,545 --> 00:37:23,925 uh, the commitment to reporting 812 00:37:23,925 --> 00:37:25,685 so deeply onto these different minds. 813 00:37:26,025 --> 00:37:27,925 We landed on the Silver Peak finding. 814 00:37:28,185 --> 00:37:31,125 We landed on the fact that Salton Seas reports, uh, 815 00:37:31,125 --> 00:37:32,925 technical reports were disclosing plans 816 00:37:32,925 --> 00:37:35,085 to use Colorado River Water, you know, one 817 00:37:35,085 --> 00:37:37,325 of the most notoriously stress water, 818 00:37:37,625 --> 00:37:38,965 uh, resources in America. 819 00:37:39,585 --> 00:37:43,285 Um, so you, you know, that's as we went through the process 820 00:37:43,345 --> 00:37:45,165 of, of flaring out and, 821 00:37:45,305 --> 00:37:48,285 and coming back to base, we made these decisions 822 00:37:48,305 --> 00:37:50,285 and that's how we kind of directed our reporting. 823 00:37:50,505 --> 00:37:53,445 Um, and then pulled together this really great multimedia 824 00:37:53,445 --> 00:37:56,205 project working with NewsHour West, um, 825 00:37:56,205 --> 00:38:00,125 and their senior producer, Phil Ravi, um, working with, 826 00:38:00,225 --> 00:38:01,285 um, USA today. 827 00:38:01,285 --> 00:38:03,525 They, they came on as a partner kind of late in the game, 828 00:38:03,705 --> 00:38:05,885 but provided, um, you know, 829 00:38:05,915 --> 00:38:09,125 just absolute tremendous exposure for, for our reporting. 830 00:38:09,585 --> 00:38:12,525 Um, and so, so yeah, so that's how we kind of, we, 831 00:38:12,585 --> 00:38:15,565 we built the team, we, we built out relationships 832 00:38:15,625 --> 00:38:16,845 to get the story out there, 833 00:38:17,345 --> 00:38:19,405 and then we just jammed . 834 00:38:20,475 --> 00:38:22,645 - Yeah, and there's a lot of content on the 835 00:38:22,645 --> 00:38:23,685 website for this project. 836 00:38:24,035 --> 00:38:25,685 It's not just the story you've got, 837 00:38:25,745 --> 00:38:28,965 you've even got an interactive game, um, that takes you 838 00:38:28,965 --> 00:38:32,485 through the process of, uh, proposing your own lithium mine, 839 00:38:32,485 --> 00:38:34,245 which is really fun and interesting. 840 00:38:34,665 --> 00:38:37,005 Um, and we'll drop a link to all of that in the show notes. 841 00:38:37,425 --> 00:38:40,565 So I wanna wrap up here by, by putting some questions 842 00:38:40,565 --> 00:38:42,045 to Emma and Morgan, um, 843 00:38:42,415 --> 00:38:44,645 about groundwater regulations and laws. 844 00:38:44,675 --> 00:38:45,925 Emma will go to you first. 845 00:38:46,555 --> 00:38:48,645 What do you think needs to change, if anything, 846 00:38:49,145 --> 00:38:50,245 to protect communities 847 00:38:50,245 --> 00:38:53,205 and ecosystems in Nevada from being sucked dry 848 00:38:53,465 --> 00:38:54,685 by these lithium mines? 849 00:38:54,995 --> 00:38:59,205 - Yeah, um, I mean, as far as just the damage that comes 850 00:38:59,205 --> 00:39:02,365 with that over pumping leads to just so many issues 851 00:39:02,365 --> 00:39:03,565 that I don't think people understand. 852 00:39:03,635 --> 00:39:05,965 Also, it outside of just, you know, 853 00:39:05,965 --> 00:39:09,285 at Brian's when you're pumping so much water out, you risk 854 00:39:10,635 --> 00:39:11,915 deteriorating that water source 855 00:39:12,255 --> 00:39:15,155 and, um, creating salt water intrusion. 856 00:39:15,155 --> 00:39:17,835 But outside of that, even there's issues 857 00:39:17,835 --> 00:39:19,355 that just happen environmentally. 858 00:39:19,575 --> 00:39:22,195 Um, even kind of what we did look at at Silver Peak, 859 00:39:22,335 --> 00:39:25,075 you see, um, kind of these land fissures 860 00:39:25,215 --> 00:39:28,835 and, um, sinkholes that are a direct result 861 00:39:28,975 --> 00:39:31,115 of over pumping groundwater 862 00:39:31,375 --> 00:39:34,475 and not having, um, you know, 863 00:39:34,475 --> 00:39:36,515 the land not having the support to really stay up 864 00:39:36,515 --> 00:39:37,755 and keep from compacting. 865 00:39:38,415 --> 00:39:41,875 Um, so yeah, I mean it's a big issue. 866 00:39:41,875 --> 00:39:44,915 And as far as things to change from that, I mean, 867 00:39:44,915 --> 00:39:48,975 I think the very general answer that, um, I mean covers most 868 00:39:48,975 --> 00:39:51,935 of it is just having more federal, um, guidelines 869 00:39:51,955 --> 00:39:55,575 and having more of a just basic 870 00:39:56,405 --> 00:39:59,175 overall standard that each state would have 871 00:39:59,175 --> 00:40:00,495 to adhere to as a minimum. 872 00:40:01,035 --> 00:40:02,295 Um, 'cause I think that's a big thing 873 00:40:02,295 --> 00:40:04,655 that we notice kind of all over the board. 874 00:40:05,155 --> 00:40:08,175 Um, with my tailings research, with the water research 875 00:40:08,405 --> 00:40:11,895 with a lot of these state laws, um, there's just kind 876 00:40:11,895 --> 00:40:14,495 of this general lack of having a bare minimum 877 00:40:15,595 --> 00:40:17,055 set standard federally. 878 00:40:17,555 --> 00:40:20,095 Um, and historically, I mean, that's really hard, 879 00:40:20,125 --> 00:40:22,295 been really hard to implement in the mining industry, 880 00:40:22,435 --> 00:40:25,335 but, um, kind of where we are right now, especially 881 00:40:25,335 --> 00:40:29,235 concerning these water issues, that's definitely, um, 882 00:40:29,515 --> 00:40:31,475 I mean, I think we think that that's something 883 00:40:31,475 --> 00:40:32,515 that's necessary now. 884 00:40:33,395 --> 00:40:35,795 - Absolutely. Um, Morgan, anything to add to that? 885 00:40:35,855 --> 00:40:38,075 Um, I know you looked at mines outside of Nevada, 886 00:40:38,135 --> 00:40:39,315 so I'm curious if there, 887 00:40:39,455 --> 00:40:41,795 if there are state level things you noticed 888 00:40:42,055 --> 00:40:43,555 or, um, other federal 889 00:40:43,585 --> 00:40:45,875 regulations that you think should be in place? Yeah, 890 00:40:46,155 --> 00:40:49,395 - So in terms of what would honestly help Nevada the most, 891 00:40:49,395 --> 00:40:52,955 because most of these line mines are on federal land, 892 00:40:53,345 --> 00:40:56,395 federal, um, policy would, 893 00:40:56,695 --> 00:41:00,235 and updating that from the 1850s law 894 00:41:00,235 --> 00:41:03,275 that it's currently governing most of the state, um, 895 00:41:04,565 --> 00:41:05,675 would really be ideal. 896 00:41:06,055 --> 00:41:08,875 So there is currently proposals, um, 897 00:41:10,255 --> 00:41:13,355 in the federal government to update, um, 898 00:41:14,615 --> 00:41:17,315 the mining law that's governing most of Nevada land 899 00:41:17,315 --> 00:41:19,475 that would require projects to prove 900 00:41:19,475 --> 00:41:21,115 that there are enough water, 901 00:41:21,425 --> 00:41:23,155 like there are enough water resources 902 00:41:23,175 --> 00:41:26,355 to actually execute the project without over draining it. 903 00:41:26,935 --> 00:41:29,115 Um, however, it only has democratic support, 904 00:41:29,135 --> 00:41:30,835 so it has an uphill battle, 905 00:41:30,975 --> 00:41:32,675 but something like that, um, 906 00:41:32,725 --> 00:41:36,045 would definitely help nevadans the most in terms 907 00:41:36,185 --> 00:41:37,725 of state policy. 908 00:41:37,995 --> 00:41:40,165 There's actually a house bill 909 00:41:40,165 --> 00:41:42,405 that was just passed or passed last year. 910 00:41:42,545 --> 00:41:47,325 Now at this point, , um, in Utah, HB five 13 that, 911 00:41:47,665 --> 00:41:51,445 um, states it governs the great Salt Lake, um, 912 00:41:51,585 --> 00:41:54,485 and mining from the waters in the Great Salt Lake. 913 00:41:54,865 --> 00:41:57,205 And it says that anyone 914 00:41:57,205 --> 00:41:58,965 that mines on the great Salt Lake needs 915 00:41:59,185 --> 00:42:01,605 to put back in the same amount 916 00:42:01,625 --> 00:42:04,965 or about equivalent, um, water that they took out. 917 00:42:05,185 --> 00:42:08,005 So what gets taken out must go back in. 918 00:42:08,385 --> 00:42:10,845 It doesn't necessarily specify how that should happen. 919 00:42:11,305 --> 00:42:13,605 Um, I'm pretty sure there's still kind of rules 920 00:42:13,605 --> 00:42:14,725 that are in proposals, 921 00:42:15,265 --> 00:42:16,285 but something 922 00:42:16,355 --> 00:42:19,205 that really requires either from the federal government 923 00:42:19,205 --> 00:42:21,485 or from the state government to make sure 924 00:42:21,485 --> 00:42:22,685 that water is a priority, 925 00:42:22,715 --> 00:42:24,605 that not only the mine is gonna have water, 926 00:42:24,705 --> 00:42:27,765 but the populations that rely on that same water, 927 00:42:27,945 --> 00:42:30,765 the ecosystems that rely on that same water, um, 928 00:42:30,875 --> 00:42:32,645 that everyone's gonna get their fair share. 929 00:42:32,985 --> 00:42:36,565 But it's kind of hard to give the perfect legislation. 930 00:42:36,565 --> 00:42:38,925 Obviously I'm not a legislator, I just write about them. 931 00:42:39,625 --> 00:42:42,245 Um, when we're really trying 932 00:42:42,265 --> 00:42:43,885 to balance all of these different things. 933 00:42:43,885 --> 00:42:45,205 We're trying to balance, you know, 934 00:42:45,235 --> 00:42:47,805 providing economic opportunity for these places, 935 00:42:48,015 --> 00:42:51,245 we're trying to balance environmentalism, um, 936 00:42:51,545 --> 00:42:52,885 and preventing climate change. 937 00:42:53,225 --> 00:42:56,295 So I think legislators have their work cut out for them, 938 00:42:56,355 --> 00:42:58,055 and I wish them the best of luck. 939 00:42:58,615 --> 00:42:59,615 - . 940 00:42:59,635 --> 00:43:02,695 Lauren, I wanna wrap with a 30,000 foot question for you. 941 00:43:02,745 --> 00:43:03,895 Since you're sitting here 942 00:43:04,155 --> 00:43:08,255 as a J School professor leading a team doing this 943 00:43:08,605 --> 00:43:12,975 spectacular reporting that, let's be honest, 944 00:43:13,235 --> 00:43:15,055 is not happening nearly 945 00:43:15,155 --> 00:43:17,855 as often in local newsrooms right now, 946 00:43:17,855 --> 00:43:20,215 particularly coming out of a, a, 947 00:43:20,295 --> 00:43:22,415 a really terrible few weeks in terms 948 00:43:22,415 --> 00:43:24,455 of journalism jobs across the west, 949 00:43:24,455 --> 00:43:27,055 including publications like the LA Times 950 00:43:27,235 --> 00:43:30,695 who should be theoretically in the driver's seat when it 951 00:43:30,695 --> 00:43:33,375 comes to big investigative environmental reporting. 952 00:43:33,995 --> 00:43:38,015 So what does this say to you in terms of how 953 00:43:39,155 --> 00:43:43,215 we collectively, as I wave my arms generally at all of this, 954 00:43:43,835 --> 00:43:46,575 uh, how, how do we as a country, as a democracy 955 00:43:47,165 --> 00:43:49,815 make sure there are enough resources 956 00:43:50,035 --> 00:43:53,335 or that the reporting that is happening at levels like this, 957 00:43:53,395 --> 00:43:57,055 if it's 15 dedicated grad students are getting in front 958 00:43:57,055 --> 00:44:00,095 of the people, the policy makers, the people 959 00:44:00,095 --> 00:44:02,095 who live near these water supplies. 960 00:44:02,735 --> 00:44:03,935 H how do you balance all of 961 00:44:03,935 --> 00:44:06,135 that given the changes in the industry right now? 962 00:44:06,645 --> 00:44:09,935 - Yeah, no, the, the, the, the news industry is going 963 00:44:09,935 --> 00:44:10,975 through tremendous changes 964 00:44:11,155 --> 00:44:13,415 and it's something that, you know, I talk about a lot 965 00:44:13,485 --> 00:44:15,175 with my journalism students, myself 966 00:44:15,195 --> 00:44:17,535 and my colleague in the Howard Center, um, 967 00:44:17,565 --> 00:44:19,455 executive editor, mark Greenblatt. 968 00:44:19,635 --> 00:44:21,695 The students who are graduating are concerned about the 969 00:44:21,895 --> 00:44:22,975 industry that they're entering into. 970 00:44:23,435 --> 00:44:25,975 But what's clear is that the importance of this work 971 00:44:26,075 --> 00:44:29,015 and the importance of a good investigative journalism 972 00:44:29,125 --> 00:44:32,285 that spends the time and takes the care, um, 973 00:44:32,505 --> 00:44:34,645 and does the fact checking, um, 974 00:44:34,825 --> 00:44:38,365 and gets all the sources to weigh in that the sort of value 975 00:44:38,465 --> 00:44:40,605 and the importance of that kind of reporting. 976 00:44:41,065 --> 00:44:43,725 Um, this, this is the time for it, 977 00:44:43,725 --> 00:44:45,525 this is the time it's ever been so important. 978 00:44:46,145 --> 00:44:47,525 Um, and what, it's one 979 00:44:47,525 --> 00:44:50,125 of the great things about a program like the Howard Center, 980 00:44:50,125 --> 00:44:53,405 which I'm very fortunate to have been a part of since, um, 981 00:44:53,695 --> 00:44:55,805 since we opened up shop here in 2019. 982 00:44:56,465 --> 00:44:59,525 Um, the programs like, um, the Howard Center and, 983 00:44:59,545 --> 00:45:02,325 and other sort of collegiate investigative journalism 984 00:45:02,325 --> 00:45:04,925 programs are hopefully kind of filling some of that space 985 00:45:05,435 --> 00:45:06,965 that, um, you know, 986 00:45:06,965 --> 00:45:10,605 professional newsrooms just can't afford to maintain anymore. 987 00:45:10,845 --> 00:45:12,045 I think one of the biggest challenges 988 00:45:12,045 --> 00:45:13,365 for a professional newsroom is 989 00:45:13,365 --> 00:45:14,965 to maintain an investigative team. 990 00:45:15,645 --> 00:45:18,325 'cause they're the most buck for the least bang, , 991 00:45:18,645 --> 00:45:21,085 - , - You know, they're, they, they require a lot 992 00:45:21,085 --> 00:45:23,645 of resourcing and they don't put out as many stories, 993 00:45:23,745 --> 00:45:26,125 but actually their stories are, can be incredibly impactful. 994 00:45:26,345 --> 00:45:28,045 So they actually do have quite a bit of bang. 995 00:45:28,065 --> 00:45:30,805 So not to, not to undercut that, but, um, 996 00:45:31,065 --> 00:45:32,645 but we need these kinds of programs. 997 00:45:32,705 --> 00:45:34,565 We need partnerships like the partnership 998 00:45:34,565 --> 00:45:36,445 that the Howard Center had with NewsHour 999 00:45:36,465 --> 00:45:39,445 and with USA today to get a project like this out. 1000 00:45:39,825 --> 00:45:42,005 Um, and so I'm hoping that the role 1001 00:45:42,065 --> 00:45:45,565 of places like the Howard Center can, can help for 1002 00:45:45,565 --> 00:45:47,765 what it's worth, um, in this, in this battle. 1003 00:45:48,225 --> 00:45:49,445 Um, but I'm also just hoping 1004 00:45:49,465 --> 00:45:51,805 to see a lot more health in the news industry and, 1005 00:45:51,985 --> 00:45:55,285 and we'll see as, you know, our next year, um, you know, 1006 00:45:55,285 --> 00:45:58,165 our election year takes place, what, how things play out. 1007 00:45:58,525 --> 00:45:59,525 . 1008 00:45:59,595 --> 00:46:01,205 - Awesome. Well, we'll leave it there. 1009 00:46:01,675 --> 00:46:03,285 Emma Peterson, Morgan Casey 1010 00:46:03,505 --> 00:46:06,405 and Lauren Olo with a's Howard Center 1011 00:46:06,425 --> 00:46:07,645 for Investigative Journalism. 1012 00:46:07,815 --> 00:46:10,005 Thank you all for being with us today. Thanks 1013 00:46:10,005 --> 00:46:11,005 - For having us. 1014 00:46:11,005 --> 00:46:11,805 Thank you. Thank you. 1015 00:46:16,885 --> 00:46:19,185 - Here's some good water news to close out this episode. 1016 00:46:19,955 --> 00:46:21,385 Fonda Monte, a subsidiary 1017 00:46:21,385 --> 00:46:23,665 of Saudi Arabia's largest dairy company, 1018 00:46:24,045 --> 00:46:27,105 has stopped pumping groundwater on state leases in Arizona. 1019 00:46:27,565 --> 00:46:28,945 The state announced last fall 1020 00:46:28,945 --> 00:46:31,505 that it would not re-up the leases, which expired at the end 1021 00:46:31,505 --> 00:46:33,665 of February because groundwater is largely 1022 00:46:33,815 --> 00:46:35,105 unregulated in Arizona. 1023 00:46:35,555 --> 00:46:39,785 Funde paid only $25 per acre to farm alfalfa on state land 1024 00:46:40,045 --> 00:46:43,145 and was able to pump as much groundwater as it needed to do 1025 00:46:43,145 --> 00:46:45,025 so the groundwater was pumping, 1026 00:46:45,025 --> 00:46:46,465 came from an aquifer designated 1027 00:46:46,465 --> 00:46:48,465 as a future water source for the city of Phoenix. 1028 00:46:48,885 --> 00:46:50,785 So this is great news for people who live there. 1029 00:47:00,305 --> 00:47:02,445 - We, well, that is it for today's episode. 1030 00:47:02,495 --> 00:47:05,045 Thank you, of course, for downloading and listening. 1031 00:47:05,345 --> 00:47:08,165 As always, feel free to pitch us an episode. 1032 00:47:08,275 --> 00:47:11,085 Send us your thoughts, comments, complaints at address 1033 00:47:11,085 --> 00:47:13,885 of course podcast@westernpriorities.org. 1034 00:47:14,465 --> 00:47:15,965 - Thanks again to Morgan, Emma, 1035 00:47:16,185 --> 00:47:17,765 and Lauren for joining us today. 1036 00:47:18,265 --> 00:47:20,365 And thank you for listening to the landscape.