1 00:00:00,205 --> 00:00:00,245 - 2 00:00:06,755 --> 00:00:09,525 - Welcome to the Landscape, your show about America's parks 3 00:00:09,525 --> 00:00:10,565 and public lands. 4 00:00:10,665 --> 00:00:13,325 I'm Erin Weiss with the Center for Western Priorities coming 5 00:00:13,325 --> 00:00:16,285 to you from Denver, where I believe this season is called 6 00:00:16,375 --> 00:00:17,765 First False Spring. 7 00:00:18,275 --> 00:00:21,925 It's February in 65 degrees. Don't be fooled, folks. 8 00:00:22,785 --> 00:00:24,765 - And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City, 9 00:00:24,775 --> 00:00:26,525 where it's still rainy and cold. 10 00:00:26,985 --> 00:00:28,325 But that's not gonna stop us from 11 00:00:28,325 --> 00:00:29,565 talking about solar energy. 12 00:00:29,575 --> 00:00:32,925 Today we've got Justin Muse with the Wilderness Society here 13 00:00:32,925 --> 00:00:35,765 to discuss the Bureau of Land Management's new solar plans 14 00:00:35,785 --> 00:00:37,365 for Western public lands. 15 00:00:37,665 --> 00:00:40,005 But before we jump into that, let's do the news. 16 00:00:40,575 --> 00:00:42,765 - Right after we put out last week's episode, 17 00:00:42,785 --> 00:00:43,965 we got some bad news. 18 00:00:43,985 --> 00:00:47,245 Out of Utah State leaders did a 180 on plans 19 00:00:47,385 --> 00:00:49,525 to swap out state land inside 20 00:00:49,525 --> 00:00:51,005 of Bear's Ears National Monument 21 00:00:51,425 --> 00:00:53,605 for federal land elsewhere in the state. 22 00:00:53,915 --> 00:00:57,845 This is all pretty standard after a a Monument proclamation. 23 00:00:57,845 --> 00:01:01,205 It's happened over decades. Uh, this has gone on. 24 00:01:01,625 --> 00:01:04,845 Now, this land swap wouldn't affect the monument size 25 00:01:04,945 --> 00:01:07,165 or status, but it means that 26 00:01:07,305 --> 00:01:10,645 for now you've got about 165,000 acres 27 00:01:10,645 --> 00:01:14,365 of state land sprinkled throughout the monument, which makes 28 00:01:14,925 --> 00:01:16,005 managing Bear's Ears 29 00:01:16,065 --> 00:01:18,765 as a connected landscape a little trickier 30 00:01:18,825 --> 00:01:21,765 and potentially a little more expensive for the Feds. 31 00:01:22,465 --> 00:01:23,765 So what happened here? 32 00:01:24,235 --> 00:01:25,565 Well, the state of Utah 33 00:01:25,565 --> 00:01:28,325 and the Interior Department collectively put many, 34 00:01:28,635 --> 00:01:31,765 many hours into crafting a plan that Utah leaders 35 00:01:31,825 --> 00:01:34,125 and the federal government could agree on. 36 00:01:34,545 --> 00:01:36,525 The plan would've made the monument whole 37 00:01:36,985 --> 00:01:39,645 and benefited Utah's public school system 38 00:01:39,705 --> 00:01:41,685 by putting more land into state trust 39 00:01:41,685 --> 00:01:43,445 that would generate revenue for schools. 40 00:01:44,015 --> 00:01:45,485 State officials liked the plan. 41 00:01:45,665 --> 00:01:47,725 Utah's congressional delegation was on board. 42 00:01:47,835 --> 00:01:50,365 They introduced a bill last year to make it official, 43 00:01:50,905 --> 00:01:53,245 but that bill has not yet passed. 44 00:01:53,865 --> 00:01:57,525 And now Utah State leaders are pulling their support for it, 45 00:01:57,825 --> 00:02:00,045 saying they're opposed to the Bureau 46 00:02:00,045 --> 00:02:03,645 of Land Management's plan for how to manage the monument. 47 00:02:04,425 --> 00:02:06,805 Now, here's the catch That management plan 48 00:02:07,145 --> 00:02:08,405 hasn't even come out yet. 49 00:02:08,625 --> 00:02:09,925 We don't know what's in it. 50 00:02:10,425 --> 00:02:12,725 We don't know what is in there 51 00:02:12,725 --> 00:02:14,885 that state leaders theoretically object to, 52 00:02:14,885 --> 00:02:17,245 because of course, this plan isn't even final yet. 53 00:02:17,785 --> 00:02:21,085 But whatever was going on, Utah leaders think 54 00:02:21,085 --> 00:02:23,445 that BLM wasn't deferential enough 55 00:02:23,445 --> 00:02:24,845 to the state when putting it together. 56 00:02:25,585 --> 00:02:28,045 So now they're throwing a fit, taking their ball, 57 00:02:28,065 --> 00:02:30,445 and going home and costing Utah 58 00:02:30,445 --> 00:02:32,005 schools money in the process. 59 00:02:33,265 --> 00:02:36,445 - In other news, Arizona state legislators have filed a 60 00:02:36,445 --> 00:02:39,285 lawsuit against President Joe Biden over his designation 61 00:02:39,285 --> 00:02:40,405 of BJ Nogio. 62 00:02:40,465 --> 00:02:42,885 It Coveney ancestral footprints 63 00:02:42,885 --> 00:02:44,605 of the Grand Canyon National Monument. 64 00:02:45,345 --> 00:02:46,805 On a side note, I still can't believe 65 00:02:46,805 --> 00:02:47,965 that's the name of the monument. 66 00:02:48,105 --> 00:02:50,445 It literally, I could not get through it in one breath. 67 00:02:50,685 --> 00:02:54,125 - , why don't we just go with Bjo Venny for now. 68 00:02:54,525 --> 00:02:55,845 - . Okay. Um, 69 00:02:56,265 --> 00:02:59,645 the lawmakers claim the designation is an unlawful land grab 70 00:02:59,645 --> 00:03:01,765 that exceeds the authority granted to the President 71 00:03:01,785 --> 00:03:02,925 by the Antiquities Act. 72 00:03:03,315 --> 00:03:05,805 Arizona Governor Katie Hobbs supports the monument 73 00:03:05,865 --> 00:03:06,965 and opposes the lawsuit. 74 00:03:07,625 --> 00:03:09,605 Now, we've seen this type of lawsuit before. 75 00:03:09,785 --> 00:03:12,485 In fact, Utah sued the president over his decision 76 00:03:12,485 --> 00:03:13,525 to restore Bear's Ears 77 00:03:13,545 --> 00:03:16,925 and Grant Staircase National Monuments in 2022. 78 00:03:17,515 --> 00:03:19,645 That lawsuit, which was ultimately an attempt 79 00:03:19,665 --> 00:03:22,005 to weaken the Antiquities Act, was thrown out 80 00:03:22,005 --> 00:03:23,525 by a federal judge last year. 81 00:03:24,155 --> 00:03:26,965 This lawsuit is similarly aimed at getting the US Supreme 82 00:03:26,965 --> 00:03:29,165 Court to put limits on the president's ability 83 00:03:29,265 --> 00:03:31,005 to designate national monuments, 84 00:03:31,225 --> 00:03:32,685 but it's unlikely to succeed. 85 00:03:33,215 --> 00:03:34,245 Every single challenge 86 00:03:34,245 --> 00:03:36,885 to a president's authority under the Antiquities Act has 87 00:03:36,885 --> 00:03:39,205 failed at the Supreme Court or in lower courts. 88 00:03:39,415 --> 00:03:41,885 Since it, since the, since the passage 89 00:03:41,945 --> 00:03:44,005 of the Antiquities Act in 1906. 90 00:03:46,905 --> 00:03:49,125 - Our guest today is Justin Muse, director 91 00:03:49,125 --> 00:03:50,765 of Government Relations for Climate 92 00:03:50,865 --> 00:03:52,845 and Energy at the Wilderness Society. 93 00:03:53,385 --> 00:03:54,685 Justin, welcome to, 94 00:03:54,885 --> 00:03:56,605 I believe this is your first time on the landscape. 95 00:03:57,305 --> 00:03:59,685 - Yes, it is, Aaron. Thank you very much for having me. 96 00:04:00,685 --> 00:04:03,305 - So we got you here today to talk about this 97 00:04:03,905 --> 00:04:05,785 proposal from the Bureau of Land Management. 98 00:04:06,165 --> 00:04:10,585 It would prioritize around 22 million acres of public land 99 00:04:11,005 --> 00:04:14,505 for utility scale solar development across the west. 100 00:04:15,525 --> 00:04:16,825 That's the top line on this, 101 00:04:16,825 --> 00:04:18,265 but what else would this plan do? 102 00:04:19,215 --> 00:04:21,345 - Yeah, that's a, that's a really good top line, Aaron. 103 00:04:21,685 --> 00:04:25,225 Um, so the Western Solar Plan update is 104 00:04:25,785 --> 00:04:28,345 a landscape level analysis, um, that the Bureau 105 00:04:28,345 --> 00:04:29,985 of Land Management has embarked upon. 106 00:04:30,525 --> 00:04:32,945 Um, that's in fact an update on a, 107 00:04:33,145 --> 00:04:36,105 a landscape level analysis dated about 10 years ago. 108 00:04:36,645 --> 00:04:40,905 Um, and its purpose is to determine which BLM lands are 109 00:04:41,365 --> 00:04:42,825 or may be appropriate 110 00:04:42,885 --> 00:04:45,785 for solar applications across 11 Western states. 111 00:04:46,365 --> 00:04:50,985 Um, so this, uh, it's an update on, um, 112 00:04:51,165 --> 00:04:53,545 the analysis conducted during the Obama administration, 113 00:04:53,545 --> 00:04:55,305 which was itself supplemented 114 00:04:55,305 --> 00:04:57,625 by state specific updates in California 115 00:04:58,205 --> 00:05:00,145 and Arizona, which did the same. 116 00:05:00,765 --> 00:05:04,465 Um, and the 11 western states that it applies to, um, 117 00:05:04,645 --> 00:05:08,145 are the six states that were covered by the 2012 plan, 118 00:05:08,235 --> 00:05:12,865 which are Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, 119 00:05:13,415 --> 00:05:14,665 Utah, and California. 120 00:05:15,325 --> 00:05:18,065 Um, and it adds five additional Western states, which, 121 00:05:18,065 --> 00:05:21,825 which include Washington State, Oregon, Idaho, 122 00:05:22,175 --> 00:05:23,825 Montana, and Wyoming. 123 00:05:24,685 --> 00:05:28,465 Um, and essentially what the plan does is it determines, uh, 124 00:05:28,785 --> 00:05:31,145 a, it determines two sets of criteria. 125 00:05:31,765 --> 00:05:35,825 Um, it includes resource-based exclusion criteria. 126 00:05:36,165 --> 00:05:40,505 So these are land, these are features of, of, 127 00:05:40,565 --> 00:05:43,105 of lands that are not acceptable 128 00:05:43,125 --> 00:05:44,625 for solar energy development. 129 00:05:45,045 --> 00:05:47,225 And some examples of that are areas 130 00:05:47,285 --> 00:05:49,905 of critical environmental concern, lands 131 00:05:49,905 --> 00:05:52,425 with wilderness characteristics, lands that are used 132 00:05:52,425 --> 00:05:55,225 for recreation and habitats and, and things like that. 133 00:05:55,845 --> 00:05:59,765 Um, and it also, uh, puts forward five, um, 134 00:06:00,205 --> 00:06:04,485 alternatives, uh, for potential priority criteria. 135 00:06:04,905 --> 00:06:07,285 Um, so these are criteria that'll guide 136 00:06:07,495 --> 00:06:10,805 where may be acceptable for solar applications to happen. 137 00:06:11,505 --> 00:06:15,005 Um, and those, those five alternatives include criteria 138 00:06:15,115 --> 00:06:19,445 that include things like, uh, proximity to transmission. 139 00:06:19,825 --> 00:06:22,805 So one of the, one of the criteria is within 10 miles 140 00:06:22,865 --> 00:06:26,485 of a transmission line, um, of a certain load, 141 00:06:26,785 --> 00:06:27,965 uh, or, or more. 142 00:06:28,545 --> 00:06:31,605 Um, another is, uh, the slope of the land. 143 00:06:31,705 --> 00:06:35,925 So 10% or or less is another criteria included there. 144 00:06:36,465 --> 00:06:38,605 Um, a third is, uh, 145 00:06:38,745 --> 00:06:42,325 is whether lands have been previously disturbed or degraded 146 00:06:42,425 --> 00:06:43,725 or otherwise developed. 147 00:06:44,225 --> 00:06:48,405 Um, and the alternatives include, um, essentially just, uh, 148 00:06:48,555 --> 00:06:51,365 different combinations of those criteria to, 149 00:06:51,585 --> 00:06:53,965 to determine which lands may be acceptable 150 00:06:53,965 --> 00:06:55,045 for solar applications. 151 00:06:55,785 --> 00:06:58,005 Um, and the preferred alternative 152 00:06:58,005 --> 00:07:00,645 that the administration has put forward in its draft 153 00:07:00,685 --> 00:07:05,645 programmatic EIS, um, is, it's called alternative three. 154 00:07:05,865 --> 00:07:10,365 And it combines the transmission proximity criteria on, 155 00:07:10,985 --> 00:07:12,685 um, with, uh, 156 00:07:13,065 --> 00:07:16,245 the slope criteria on the 10% or less. 157 00:07:16,945 --> 00:07:21,405 Um, so, um, that's alternative three. 158 00:07:21,405 --> 00:07:22,765 Another alternative that, 159 00:07:22,765 --> 00:07:25,245 that we at the Wilderness Society are especially interested 160 00:07:25,245 --> 00:07:29,405 in is the fifth, uh, criteria set, um, 161 00:07:29,495 --> 00:07:32,965 which is those two plus disturbed and degraded lands. 162 00:07:33,385 --> 00:07:37,525 So in the preferred alternative, um, that would, uh, 163 00:07:37,865 --> 00:07:40,885 put about just over 22 million acres 164 00:07:40,905 --> 00:07:45,245 of BLM lands in the west, um, uh, make them open 165 00:07:45,265 --> 00:07:46,325 for application. 166 00:07:46,985 --> 00:07:50,005 Um, and the fifth alternative would be just over 8 million 167 00:07:50,095 --> 00:07:51,245 acres in the west. 168 00:07:51,755 --> 00:07:54,125 - Alright, so let me try to summarize. 169 00:07:54,125 --> 00:07:56,885 Tell me if you, if this is more or less right. 170 00:07:57,305 --> 00:08:00,725 Uh, so this means, number one, do build close 171 00:08:00,725 --> 00:08:02,725 to existing transmission lines. 172 00:08:03,455 --> 00:08:08,085 Don't build on steep cliffs or mountains or rolling hills 173 00:08:08,785 --> 00:08:12,685 and do build on places that have already been disturbed 174 00:08:12,685 --> 00:08:14,725 because of other development or oil and gas 175 00:08:14,785 --> 00:08:16,725 or things like that, that, you know, those kind of the, 176 00:08:16,725 --> 00:08:19,565 the three big things that are important right now 177 00:08:20,365 --> 00:08:21,365 - Yeah. 178 00:08:21,365 --> 00:08:22,535 In, in our view at the Wilderness Society. 179 00:08:22,535 --> 00:08:23,695 That's, that's absolutely true. 180 00:08:24,015 --> 00:08:27,575 I, I will note that the preferred alternative put forth I is 181 00:08:27,635 --> 00:08:29,655 not considering the disturbed 182 00:08:29,655 --> 00:08:31,735 and degraded criterion. Um, but 183 00:08:31,735 --> 00:08:33,095 - Yes, but there's some, but there's some 184 00:08:33,125 --> 00:08:34,455 room in this process. 185 00:08:34,545 --> 00:08:37,855 We'll get into that, what that means in a second. Kate. 186 00:08:38,365 --> 00:08:41,175 - Yeah. Justin, so you've mentioned that this is a proposal. 187 00:08:41,325 --> 00:08:44,455 It's, um, I guess it's called a programmatic environmental 188 00:08:44,565 --> 00:08:46,415 environmental impact statement. 189 00:08:46,755 --> 00:08:48,015 Um, what do those words mean 190 00:08:48,035 --> 00:08:50,535 and what, uh, what's what comes next in this process? 191 00:08:51,845 --> 00:08:54,255 - Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the question, Kate. 192 00:08:54,435 --> 00:08:56,165 Um, so it's, uh, 193 00:08:56,835 --> 00:08:59,605 it's a landscape level analysis. 194 00:09:00,105 --> 00:09:05,005 Um, basically what it is is a 30,000 foot 195 00:09:05,525 --> 00:09:09,525 planning process, um, which will determine, um, 196 00:09:10,135 --> 00:09:14,485 which areas are available for solar applications 197 00:09:15,385 --> 00:09:16,725 and which aren't. 198 00:09:16,985 --> 00:09:20,045 So the ultimate goal is to guide, um, 199 00:09:20,735 --> 00:09:24,605 guide applications away from areas 200 00:09:24,995 --> 00:09:27,285 that are highest conflict 201 00:09:27,425 --> 00:09:30,325 and towards areas that are lowest conflict. 202 00:09:30,905 --> 00:09:34,525 Um, and then after that, uh, project level 203 00:09:35,365 --> 00:09:38,685 analysis will happen once applications are made. 204 00:09:39,905 --> 00:09:42,085 - And, and does it come along with like a comment period? 205 00:09:42,305 --> 00:09:44,445 And, um, all of those things we expect 206 00:09:44,445 --> 00:09:45,565 out of like a NEPA process? 207 00:09:46,635 --> 00:09:47,645 - Yeah, absolutely. 208 00:09:47,665 --> 00:09:50,125 So there's a, a 90 day comment period that, 209 00:09:50,155 --> 00:09:53,285 that began when this, uh, this proposal was released. 210 00:09:53,465 --> 00:09:55,565 And that'll conclude on April 18th. 211 00:09:56,065 --> 00:09:58,405 Um, and the Bureau of Land Management is looking 212 00:09:58,405 --> 00:10:01,605 for comments on, on, you know, which alternative, uh, 213 00:10:01,615 --> 00:10:05,965 folks wanna see selected on the criteria on 214 00:10:06,475 --> 00:10:08,365 another thing that I haven't mentioned yet, 215 00:10:08,365 --> 00:10:10,885 which are programmatic design features, uh, 216 00:10:10,885 --> 00:10:14,605 which are requirements that projects must have in order to, 217 00:10:14,705 --> 00:10:16,725 to move forward in the application areas. 218 00:10:17,425 --> 00:10:21,645 Um, you know, some examples of those, uh, include, um, 219 00:10:21,985 --> 00:10:24,765 you know, design features requiring development developers 220 00:10:24,785 --> 00:10:27,925 to retain short native plant species 221 00:10:28,155 --> 00:10:29,805 that will fit under solar panels 222 00:10:29,905 --> 00:10:32,365 and essentially make these developments work better 223 00:10:32,365 --> 00:10:35,165 with the, uh, the lands on which they're cited. 224 00:10:36,225 --> 00:10:38,365 - So let's zoom out, um, 225 00:10:38,945 --> 00:10:41,525 and talk about how solar leasing on public 226 00:10:41,535 --> 00:10:42,805 lands works right now. 227 00:10:43,425 --> 00:10:46,485 Is that process similar to oil and gas leasing? 228 00:10:47,075 --> 00:10:48,725 - Yeah. Yeah. It, you know, it's, it's, 229 00:10:48,835 --> 00:10:51,605 it's pretty different from oil and gas leasing. 230 00:10:51,905 --> 00:10:53,445 Um, you know, the, I mentioned 231 00:10:53,445 --> 00:10:57,685 before that there was a 2012, uh, programmatic, um, 232 00:10:58,475 --> 00:11:00,205 environmental impact statement that, 233 00:11:00,235 --> 00:11:03,685 that guided development towards, uh, towards priority areas. 234 00:11:03,685 --> 00:11:05,405 They're called designated leasing areas 235 00:11:05,465 --> 00:11:08,125 or solar energy zones, which are both terms of art. 236 00:11:08,625 --> 00:11:10,645 Um, but you know, essentially in, 237 00:11:10,745 --> 00:11:12,365 in those designated leasing areas, 238 00:11:12,575 --> 00:11:14,765 there are competitive auctions 239 00:11:14,765 --> 00:11:17,605 because those are areas that have been pre-screened, um, 240 00:11:17,705 --> 00:11:18,725 to avoid conflict 241 00:11:18,745 --> 00:11:22,685 and also areas known to have high solar potential. 242 00:11:23,225 --> 00:11:25,165 Um, and then, and, 243 00:11:25,265 --> 00:11:27,765 and so there's a competitive leasing process for those, 244 00:11:28,025 --> 00:11:30,885 but then there's also about 19 million acres 245 00:11:31,025 --> 00:11:33,005 of variance areas currently. 246 00:11:33,265 --> 00:11:36,245 And those are places where renewable energy companies can 247 00:11:36,245 --> 00:11:39,685 apply for rights of way, um, which are different rights 248 00:11:39,685 --> 00:11:41,125 of WAY grants, which are different from 249 00:11:41,185 --> 00:11:42,685 rights of way leases. 250 00:11:43,185 --> 00:11:44,765 Um, and those are not pre-screened. 251 00:11:44,945 --> 00:11:46,565 Um, so there, there's a, 252 00:11:46,565 --> 00:11:48,325 there's a slightly different process for, 253 00:11:48,505 --> 00:11:50,005 for these variance lands than there are 254 00:11:50,005 --> 00:11:51,525 for these designated leasing areas. 255 00:11:52,025 --> 00:11:55,085 Um, but in those designated leasing areas, it is, you know, 256 00:11:55,085 --> 00:11:57,805 roughly analogous to how it's for, for oil and gas. 257 00:11:59,265 --> 00:12:00,885 - You mentioned that this is an update 258 00:12:00,985 --> 00:12:04,725 of the Obama era plan was put in place 10 years ago. 259 00:12:05,235 --> 00:12:08,005 This is expanding this to cover several more states, 260 00:12:08,545 --> 00:12:10,085 but give us us also a sense of 261 00:12:10,385 --> 00:12:13,045 how the renewables space has changed 262 00:12:13,145 --> 00:12:15,045 and evolved in the last decade. 263 00:12:15,235 --> 00:12:18,885 What do we know now and how is both the industry 264 00:12:18,885 --> 00:12:22,565 and America's power grid different than it was 10 years ago? 265 00:12:23,395 --> 00:12:24,725 - Yeah, that's a great question, Aaron. 266 00:12:25,065 --> 00:12:29,765 Um, and, um, some of the, uh, one, one, and, 267 00:12:29,785 --> 00:12:33,525 and I think there's one component of the, the 2012 plan 268 00:12:33,525 --> 00:12:36,405 that's illustrative of, of how the technology's changed. 269 00:12:36,665 --> 00:12:37,765 Um, and one of the, 270 00:12:37,825 --> 00:12:42,365 the resource-based exclusion criteria back in 2012, um, that 271 00:12:43,125 --> 00:12:45,325 excluded areas from even being considered 272 00:12:45,325 --> 00:12:48,645 for development was, um, insulation. 273 00:12:49,105 --> 00:12:51,885 Um, so this is not insulation like you insulate your house, 274 00:12:51,945 --> 00:12:56,045 but rather, um, you know how much sunlight a certain parcel 275 00:12:56,145 --> 00:12:57,285 of land gets. 276 00:12:57,825 --> 00:13:01,365 Um, and, and there was a, you know, in the 2012 plan, 277 00:13:01,375 --> 00:13:04,445 there was, um, you know, certain lands 278 00:13:04,445 --> 00:13:07,005 that got less than a certain threshold of sunlight in a, 279 00:13:07,245 --> 00:13:10,085 in a given year were excluded from development. 280 00:13:10,505 --> 00:13:14,685 And because of those very, uh, technological, um, you know, 281 00:13:14,685 --> 00:13:16,685 advancements that have happened in the last 10 years 282 00:13:16,685 --> 00:13:20,005 that you, you referenced, um, you know, you can get more 283 00:13:20,005 --> 00:13:23,525 with less with today's photos, voltaic, uh, solar panels, 284 00:13:23,745 --> 00:13:26,565 um, then, then, then you were able to with, you know, 285 00:13:26,925 --> 00:13:28,805 concentrated solar back in 2012 or, 286 00:13:28,825 --> 00:13:30,765 or the panels that we were dealing with back then. 287 00:13:31,345 --> 00:13:34,325 Um, so this plan at hand gets rid of 288 00:13:34,475 --> 00:13:36,365 that specific exclusion criteria, 289 00:13:36,825 --> 00:13:39,405 and that's also, you know, in part why you're seeing, 290 00:13:39,465 --> 00:13:42,205 you know, more interest and, um, you know, 291 00:13:42,205 --> 00:13:45,405 potential availability in, in states further north. 292 00:13:46,265 --> 00:13:49,125 - So Justin, I think you may have touched on this, 293 00:13:49,225 --> 00:13:52,125 but why are they redoing the plan right now 294 00:13:52,125 --> 00:13:53,285 with they being the BLM? 295 00:13:53,595 --> 00:13:57,125 - Yeah. Um, so there are, there are a number of goals 296 00:13:57,125 --> 00:13:59,285 that have been either congressionally mandated 297 00:13:59,545 --> 00:14:02,045 or, uh, put forward by the Biden administration. 298 00:14:02,185 --> 00:14:04,805 One is, is a goal of achieving, uh, 299 00:14:04,895 --> 00:14:09,405 permitting 25 gigawatts of onshore renewable energy 300 00:14:09,505 --> 00:14:10,525 by 2025. 301 00:14:11,065 --> 00:14:14,165 Um, and another is decarbonizing the electricity sector 302 00:14:14,305 --> 00:14:15,365 by 2035. 303 00:14:16,025 --> 00:14:19,165 Um, and ultimately in order to meet those goals, 304 00:14:19,165 --> 00:14:23,885 especially the second goal, um, we just need to do more 305 00:14:23,905 --> 00:14:26,125 to make public lands part of the climate solution. 306 00:14:26,305 --> 00:14:30,485 And that includes, um, citing more so solar panels and, 307 00:14:30,485 --> 00:14:33,045 and developing more renewable energy on public lands. 308 00:14:33,585 --> 00:14:36,565 Um, and you know, one thing I'll point to in, in, 309 00:14:36,745 --> 00:14:40,325 in the plan that's at hand here is that, uh, 310 00:14:40,765 --> 00:14:42,765 ultimately the goal is to, is not 311 00:14:42,765 --> 00:14:47,285 to develop 22 plus million acres of public lands for solar, 312 00:14:47,385 --> 00:14:49,525 but, but rather to, to, you know, 313 00:14:50,185 --> 00:14:54,565 get about 700,000 acres of solar over the next 20 years. 314 00:14:55,305 --> 00:14:59,125 Um, and you know, in the programmatic EIS itself, the, 315 00:14:59,145 --> 00:15:02,565 the Bureau of Land Management states that, um, that will, 316 00:15:02,985 --> 00:15:06,405 uh, really get us a lot closer to that 20, 317 00:15:06,475 --> 00:15:10,645 that 100% carbon free electricity grid by 2035. 318 00:15:11,265 --> 00:15:14,245 And in particular, the, the solar energy added 319 00:15:14,425 --> 00:15:16,165 by those 700,000 acres 320 00:15:16,185 --> 00:15:20,765 of panels will avoid roughly 123 million 321 00:15:20,945 --> 00:15:24,285 metric tons of greenhouse gas emissions by 2035, 322 00:15:24,335 --> 00:15:27,725 which is really, it's the equivalent of taking 27 million 323 00:15:28,315 --> 00:15:30,285 passenger vehicles off the road every year, 324 00:15:30,285 --> 00:15:32,485 which is just a huge bite out of the climate crisis. 325 00:15:33,425 --> 00:15:35,405 - And so, just doing that quick math, that means, 326 00:15:35,405 --> 00:15:38,485 of these 22 million acres, ultimately BLM would like 327 00:15:38,485 --> 00:15:40,005 to see about three, three 328 00:15:40,005 --> 00:15:41,445 and a half percent of it developed. 329 00:15:41,545 --> 00:15:42,685 That's correct. Is that right? Yep. 330 00:15:42,795 --> 00:15:44,205 - Over the next 20 years. That's right. 331 00:15:45,965 --> 00:15:49,765 - S so just to summarize that, the goal here is to sort 332 00:15:49,765 --> 00:15:53,125 of speed up, um, renewable development on public lands. 333 00:15:54,345 --> 00:15:55,405 - That's right. That's right. 334 00:15:55,425 --> 00:15:57,965 And, and do so in a responsible manner that, 335 00:15:58,155 --> 00:15:59,965 that involves stakeholders at, 336 00:16:00,065 --> 00:16:02,005 at very early in the decision process. 337 00:16:02,155 --> 00:16:05,445 That that's ultimately what this landscape level plan is, 338 00:16:05,625 --> 00:16:08,845 is giving folks the opportunity to weigh in on, you know, 339 00:16:08,845 --> 00:16:10,125 what'll what'll be available. 340 00:16:10,415 --> 00:16:11,445 Right. Um, 341 00:16:11,585 --> 00:16:14,445 and there's a 90 day pop comment period for folks to, to, 342 00:16:14,585 --> 00:16:17,845 to be engaged for the Bureau of Land Management, to consult 343 00:16:17,845 --> 00:16:20,885 with communities and with, uh, tribal stakeholders 344 00:16:21,145 --> 00:16:25,405 and with, uh, cooperating agencies across the west, um, 345 00:16:25,945 --> 00:16:29,285 and, uh, ensure that, you know, that kind of 346 00:16:30,715 --> 00:16:33,005 ramp up of renewable energy that we really need 347 00:16:33,005 --> 00:16:36,365 to see is done, um, you know, without leaving folks behind. 348 00:16:37,545 --> 00:16:40,565 - So I think that brings us to the $64,000 349 00:16:41,455 --> 00:16:45,165 64 gigawatt question, uh, which is how are they doing, uh, 350 00:16:45,225 --> 00:16:47,765 are they avoiding conflict so far? 351 00:16:47,905 --> 00:16:49,645 Are there big concerns? 352 00:16:49,665 --> 00:16:52,045 Are there little concerns around the edges of this thing? 353 00:16:52,045 --> 00:16:53,165 What kind of feedback are you hearing? 354 00:16:54,045 --> 00:16:56,925 - I a lot of people are concerned about public lands 355 00:16:56,925 --> 00:16:58,445 and landscapes and ecosystems. 356 00:16:58,445 --> 00:17:01,765 They care about being taken over by solar and say, 357 00:17:02,505 --> 00:17:05,045 and, you know, we agree that that's why we need 358 00:17:05,045 --> 00:17:06,765 to do this type of landscape level planning. 359 00:17:07,345 --> 00:17:10,805 Um, you know, we at the Wilderness Society really don't 360 00:17:10,805 --> 00:17:14,365 wanna see kind of, um, haphazard development 361 00:17:14,365 --> 00:17:15,965 of our treasured public lands. 362 00:17:16,305 --> 00:17:19,405 Um, so that's why we're engaging so much on this process 363 00:17:19,625 --> 00:17:22,765 to ensure that, um, you know, our public lands are developed 364 00:17:22,765 --> 00:17:26,765 with care and that solar energy is cited responsibly 365 00:17:26,785 --> 00:17:29,605 and with extensive community and stakeholder involvement. 366 00:17:30,305 --> 00:17:33,405 Um, so that's, that's one concern that I've heard is just 367 00:17:33,405 --> 00:17:34,965 that the character of the public lands will change. 368 00:17:35,025 --> 00:17:37,725 And, and this is, you know, we're, we're trying 369 00:17:37,725 --> 00:17:39,805 to do everything that we can to ensure that it doesn't. 370 00:17:40,305 --> 00:17:43,325 Um, and, you know, another concern that I've heard is just, 371 00:17:43,785 --> 00:17:46,885 it seems like a lot of folks think that, um, and, 372 00:17:46,905 --> 00:17:48,645 and I don't think some of the headlines have helped, 373 00:17:48,745 --> 00:17:50,845 but, you know, they think that this will equate 374 00:17:50,845 --> 00:17:54,205 to 22 plus million acres of public lands being developed. 375 00:17:54,465 --> 00:17:55,645 And that's simply not the case. 376 00:17:55,845 --> 00:17:57,325 I mean, we, we just went over it. 377 00:17:57,385 --> 00:18:00,765 The ultimate goal is about 700,000 acres over the 378 00:18:00,765 --> 00:18:01,885 next 20 years. 379 00:18:02,585 --> 00:18:07,085 Um, so, um, just want to do everything that I can from, 380 00:18:07,325 --> 00:18:10,525 from my soapbox to, to point folks to that, to that fact. 381 00:18:11,385 --> 00:18:15,085 - Um, so Justin, I think you've mentioned transmission, 382 00:18:15,145 --> 00:18:18,165 but how does this plan affect transmission? 383 00:18:18,195 --> 00:18:19,765 This is more about building out 384 00:18:19,865 --> 00:18:21,365 so large solar arrays, correct. 385 00:18:21,465 --> 00:18:23,685 Or is transmission wrapped up in this too? 386 00:18:24,515 --> 00:18:27,365 - Yeah, there, there isn't, there isn't a ton of overlap. 387 00:18:27,705 --> 00:18:31,325 Um, but, you know, one thing that we want to ensure, 388 00:18:31,705 --> 00:18:34,245 and one thing that we think that this plan does, uh, 389 00:18:35,385 --> 00:18:36,725 you know, in the alternatives that, 390 00:18:36,725 --> 00:18:38,845 that have been proposed is, you know, 391 00:18:38,845 --> 00:18:41,325 guiding solar development to where transmission already is 392 00:18:41,345 --> 00:18:43,205 or where transmission has been proposed. 393 00:18:44,025 --> 00:18:46,565 Um, so we think that's, that's really smart. 394 00:18:46,825 --> 00:18:48,085 Uh, we think that's important. 395 00:18:48,305 --> 00:18:50,765 That's been a bit of a roadblock for some 396 00:18:50,765 --> 00:18:54,605 of the solar energy zones, um, that we've seen, you know, 397 00:18:55,225 --> 00:18:57,045 not get developed since 2012. 398 00:18:57,665 --> 00:18:59,845 Um, so, you know, I, in that sense, 399 00:18:59,925 --> 00:19:01,765 transmission is very important, but it, 400 00:19:01,765 --> 00:19:04,125 but it is only tangentially related in that sense. 401 00:19:05,625 --> 00:19:07,645 - You mentioned that after the Obama plan, 402 00:19:07,645 --> 00:19:11,205 there were some state, uh, additions that happened. 403 00:19:11,265 --> 00:19:14,885 Uh, one of those I believe was the D-R-E-C-P in California, 404 00:19:14,905 --> 00:19:17,805 the Desert Renewable Energy and Conservation Plan. 405 00:19:18,915 --> 00:19:21,565 Were there lessons learned from D-R-E-C-P 406 00:19:21,565 --> 00:19:24,205 that went into this REGIONWIDE plan? 407 00:19:24,785 --> 00:19:29,205 Um, and from what you can tell, was that process, uh, 408 00:19:29,455 --> 00:19:32,005 successful so far now a couple years past 409 00:19:32,245 --> 00:19:33,365 D-R-E-C-P implementation? 410 00:19:33,955 --> 00:19:35,285 - Yeah, no, those are great questions. 411 00:19:35,285 --> 00:19:37,165 Aaron and the DRC, the D-R-E-C-P, 412 00:19:37,185 --> 00:19:40,525 the Desert Renewable Energy Conservation Plan is something 413 00:19:40,525 --> 00:19:43,285 that, you know, I know the Wilderness Society has advocated 414 00:19:43,285 --> 00:19:44,565 really heavy heavily on. 415 00:19:44,805 --> 00:19:47,525 I will say that a lot of that work in, in fact, all of 416 00:19:47,525 --> 00:19:48,605 that work predates me. 417 00:19:48,785 --> 00:19:50,485 Um, but I , but I'm happy 418 00:19:50,485 --> 00:19:51,885 to talk a little bit more about it. 419 00:19:52,345 --> 00:19:56,285 Um, so one thing that's really great about the D-R-E-C-P is, 420 00:19:56,465 --> 00:19:57,845 you know, not only is it working, 421 00:19:58,145 --> 00:20:00,485 but it also struck a really important 422 00:20:00,705 --> 00:20:02,605 and delicate balance, uh, 423 00:20:02,665 --> 00:20:05,565 and was signed off on by a diverse group of stakeholders 424 00:20:05,795 --> 00:20:10,445 that included conservation organizations, um, uh, tribes, 425 00:20:10,895 --> 00:20:12,525 state agencies, um, 426 00:20:12,705 --> 00:20:14,405 and, you know, renewable energy companies. 427 00:20:14,825 --> 00:20:17,605 Um, and these same stakeholders, uh, you know, 428 00:20:17,915 --> 00:20:20,965 have consistently urged the Bureau of Land Management not 429 00:20:20,985 --> 00:20:22,125 to adjust it. 430 00:20:22,365 --> 00:20:25,325 I mean, I say that with some reservations considering we 431 00:20:25,325 --> 00:20:28,285 have heard the renewable energy industry does wanna open 432 00:20:28,285 --> 00:20:29,325 up additional acreage. 433 00:20:29,985 --> 00:20:33,205 Um, but, uh, you know, I will also say 434 00:20:33,205 --> 00:20:37,165 that some tribes in the area, particularly the, the CRIT, 435 00:20:37,625 --> 00:20:40,685 uh, have expressed concerns with the D-R-E-C-P 436 00:20:40,685 --> 00:20:42,605 that it didn't do enough to avoid impacts 437 00:20:42,625 --> 00:20:44,645 to cultural properties and landscapes. 438 00:20:45,225 --> 00:20:49,785 Um, but that's, you know, what I will say about that is 439 00:20:49,785 --> 00:20:52,745 that, um, you know, the D-R-E-C-P, 440 00:20:52,815 --> 00:20:56,465 like the plan at hand here is, is imperfect. 441 00:20:56,765 --> 00:21:00,065 And that site specific analysis, that second step, 442 00:21:00,215 --> 00:21:02,945 when you look at a specific parcel of land, 443 00:21:02,945 --> 00:21:06,105 whether it's going to be developed once an application has 444 00:21:06,105 --> 00:21:07,585 been submitted, um, 445 00:21:07,855 --> 00:21:10,345 that site specific analysis is just so important. 446 00:21:10,525 --> 00:21:13,745 And tribal engagement, community engagement really has 447 00:21:13,745 --> 00:21:17,145 to happen there too, um, to ensure that, you know, any sort 448 00:21:17,145 --> 00:21:19,665 of decisions made at the programmatic level don't, um, 449 00:21:20,085 --> 00:21:22,945 you know, uh, don't over influence 450 00:21:22,945 --> 00:21:24,265 what happens at the project level. 451 00:21:27,205 --> 00:21:30,505 - All right. So we've talked a lot about the benefits 452 00:21:30,505 --> 00:21:32,585 of planning where solar goes as opposed 453 00:21:32,645 --> 00:21:35,225 to just giving developers a free for all. 454 00:21:35,605 --> 00:21:37,545 Um, obviously that's a good thing. 455 00:21:37,645 --> 00:21:38,745 Um, we're all in support of that. 456 00:21:39,285 --> 00:21:42,465 How well would you say the BLM has been following 457 00:21:43,045 --> 00:21:45,745 the existing Obama era solar plan, 458 00:21:46,005 --> 00:21:49,185 and how well has that, um, avoid has helped, has 459 00:21:49,185 --> 00:21:54,105 that helped BLM avoid, um, uh, what's the word for it? 460 00:21:54,165 --> 00:21:55,585 Um, conflicts such 461 00:21:55,585 --> 00:21:58,105 as like the Sun Zia transmission line? Yeah, 462 00:21:58,105 --> 00:21:59,105 - That's a great question. 463 00:21:59,445 --> 00:22:02,105 Um, and I've, I know that I've mentioned that there were, 464 00:22:02,115 --> 00:22:06,025 there were, um, you know, just, just under 300,000 acres of, 465 00:22:06,085 --> 00:22:10,705 of prioritized areas, um, priority areas that came out 466 00:22:10,705 --> 00:22:12,065 of the 2012 plan, 467 00:22:12,085 --> 00:22:15,185 and then about 19 million acres of, of variance areas. 468 00:22:15,845 --> 00:22:17,905 Um, and, you know, that was, that, 469 00:22:17,905 --> 00:22:19,505 that pres presented a bit of a problem. 470 00:22:20,245 --> 00:22:22,145 Um, you know, uh, there's been a lot 471 00:22:22,145 --> 00:22:23,985 of interest in those variance areas. 472 00:22:24,445 --> 00:22:26,505 Um, and I will say about the variance areas 473 00:22:26,695 --> 00:22:29,825 that they didn't have the same level 474 00:22:30,125 --> 00:22:32,665 of environmental analysis that went into them. 475 00:22:33,205 --> 00:22:35,745 Um, and, uh, you know, there, 476 00:22:35,745 --> 00:22:38,065 there've just been more conflicts there as a result. 477 00:22:38,765 --> 00:22:43,565 Um, you know, we, in the programmatic EIS we've seen, 478 00:22:44,065 --> 00:22:46,885 uh, you know, the Bureau of Land Management points 479 00:22:46,905 --> 00:22:49,405 to about 17 projects that have been cited 480 00:22:49,505 --> 00:22:53,205 and permitted in solar energy zones versus about 17 481 00:22:53,265 --> 00:22:54,325 in variance areas. 482 00:22:54,985 --> 00:22:56,845 Um, so, you know, that shows that there's some 483 00:22:57,365 --> 00:22:58,645 interest in these priority areas. 484 00:22:59,345 --> 00:23:03,165 Um, and one that I'll, I'll point out in particular, um, 485 00:23:03,275 --> 00:23:06,405 that show us like kind of the model for how this can work 486 00:23:06,505 --> 00:23:09,925 and how this has worked over the last 10 years is the Dry 487 00:23:09,925 --> 00:23:14,765 Lake Solar Zone, um, which was designated, um, uh, 488 00:23:14,765 --> 00:23:17,925 you know, back in 2012 that's in Nevada. 489 00:23:18,585 --> 00:23:20,845 Um, so in Nevada, 490 00:23:20,865 --> 00:23:23,405 the 2012 Western Solar Plan established the 491 00:23:23,405 --> 00:23:24,485 Dry Lake Solar Zone. 492 00:23:24,635 --> 00:23:27,005 It's a designated leasing area on lands 493 00:23:27,005 --> 00:23:28,845 that were already impacted by development. 494 00:23:29,345 --> 00:23:32,845 Um, you know, it was in a, a solar energy zone, meaning 495 00:23:32,845 --> 00:23:35,805 that it had already been analyzed for, for conflicts. 496 00:23:36,025 --> 00:23:39,805 Um, and ultimately, uh, the permitting time for 497 00:23:40,035 --> 00:23:41,725 that project was less than half 498 00:23:41,725 --> 00:23:44,525 of the average permitting time for, for projects, uh, 499 00:23:44,585 --> 00:23:47,165 you know, not in priority areas in those variance areas. 500 00:23:47,505 --> 00:23:51,205 So, you know, the Obama plan has showed us that, you know, 501 00:23:51,275 --> 00:23:55,965 when, um, when industry applies to build in 502 00:23:56,505 --> 00:23:58,645 an area that's been pre-screened for conflict, 503 00:23:58,985 --> 00:24:00,845 the process can just go so much faster. 504 00:24:01,305 --> 00:24:04,645 Um, and that's, that's really kind of 505 00:24:05,425 --> 00:24:08,125 the quintessential example of, uh, of, of 506 00:24:08,125 --> 00:24:09,325 how this can and should work. 507 00:24:10,745 --> 00:24:14,205 - So take us down the road six months, you know, 508 00:24:14,205 --> 00:24:15,205 past this comment period, 509 00:24:15,305 --> 00:24:17,205 and as we look towards it being finalized, 510 00:24:17,305 --> 00:24:19,805 and then let's say six years down the road, 511 00:24:20,425 --> 00:24:23,365 how will you know if this has been a success 512 00:24:23,585 --> 00:24:25,885 or a failure or halfway in between? 513 00:24:27,545 --> 00:24:31,485 - I'd say a good metric for the success of this is 514 00:24:32,345 --> 00:24:35,045 the pace of the projects that, that, uh, 515 00:24:35,115 --> 00:24:38,165 that are permitted over, you know, the next five, 10 years, 516 00:24:38,745 --> 00:24:41,485 and the degree to which you see opposition 517 00:24:41,485 --> 00:24:42,765 to these projects on the ground. 518 00:24:43,185 --> 00:24:46,925 Um, it's, it's going to be extremely important for, 519 00:24:47,105 --> 00:24:49,125 for these projects to be done. 520 00:24:49,125 --> 00:24:52,605 Right. I, I think that, um, the last thing 521 00:24:52,605 --> 00:24:55,685 that we wanna see is, uh, you know, false narratives about, 522 00:24:55,775 --> 00:25:00,525 about solar, uh, you know, prop proliferate. Um, so 523 00:25:00,895 --> 00:25:01,895 - Let's dive in there. 524 00:25:02,305 --> 00:25:07,165 The, I i I, so you're talking about measuring success by 525 00:25:08,775 --> 00:25:11,325 minimizing conflict or opposition, 526 00:25:11,425 --> 00:25:14,245 and then you do mention these false narratives. 527 00:25:14,785 --> 00:25:18,685 Uh, can you give some examples there of what may be 528 00:25:19,835 --> 00:25:24,645 more real valid concerns about the effects of solar, 529 00:25:24,825 --> 00:25:28,405 say, on, on water supplies, uh, or on wildlife 530 00:25:28,505 --> 00:25:31,085 and more concerns that you might fall, uh, 531 00:25:31,145 --> 00:25:33,565 you might might put into the NIMBY category of folks 532 00:25:33,705 --> 00:25:36,565 who just don't want to see 533 00:25:37,455 --> 00:25:40,045 solar projects within their view shed? 534 00:25:40,825 --> 00:25:42,195 - Yeah, no, we, we've, I, 535 00:25:42,195 --> 00:25:45,195 there's some extremely valid concerns about, about, uh, 536 00:25:45,445 --> 00:25:47,915 about renewable energy generally on public lands. 537 00:25:48,015 --> 00:25:49,635 You know, we've, I, I think there's a, 538 00:25:49,755 --> 00:25:51,635 a really good example, um, you know, 539 00:25:51,745 --> 00:25:53,035 it's in the transmission space, 540 00:25:53,035 --> 00:25:55,995 but I think it carries over here of, you know, when you, 541 00:25:56,345 --> 00:25:59,155 when you really start doing the project level outreach 542 00:25:59,155 --> 00:26:02,035 and analysis, you know, in, in Sun Zia specifically, 543 00:26:02,175 --> 00:26:04,475 you know, there's been a lot of, um, a lot 544 00:26:04,475 --> 00:26:08,635 of opposition from, from, you know, tribal partners who, um, 545 00:26:09,745 --> 00:26:14,515 have raised concerns about infrastructure, uh, in 546 00:26:15,115 --> 00:26:17,875 negative imp, negatively impacting cultural resources. 547 00:26:18,375 --> 00:26:20,355 Um, you know, those are extremely valid concerns, 548 00:26:20,355 --> 00:26:22,795 and that's not something that you can necessarily put on a 549 00:26:22,815 --> 00:26:25,035 map, um, at the programmatic stage. 550 00:26:25,035 --> 00:26:26,195 And that's something you just need 551 00:26:26,195 --> 00:26:29,475 to dive into at the, like, on the ground. Um, 552 00:26:30,415 --> 00:26:31,415 - Yes. 553 00:26:31,415 --> 00:26:32,755 Uh, right there, there, and, 554 00:26:32,815 --> 00:26:36,635 and it's, well, it's not always an either or. 555 00:26:36,635 --> 00:26:40,635 There's a, a gradient there between, you know, 556 00:26:40,635 --> 00:26:43,445 obviously the concerns on the San Pedro with the, 557 00:26:43,635 --> 00:26:44,805 with the Sun Zia project, 558 00:26:45,035 --> 00:26:48,525 very real environmental concerns about what happens to, to, 559 00:26:48,745 --> 00:26:52,985 uh, to a, a, a riparian area in the desert. 560 00:26:53,525 --> 00:26:55,105 And on the other hand, there are folks 561 00:26:55,105 --> 00:26:59,265 who don't like looking at solar panels, and Yeah. 562 00:26:59,485 --> 00:27:02,105 How do you, how do you balance that? 563 00:27:02,125 --> 00:27:05,745 How do you work with folks who might fall more on 564 00:27:06,335 --> 00:27:07,465 that latter side? 565 00:27:08,855 --> 00:27:11,065 - Yeah, no, that's, it's, it's a great question 566 00:27:11,125 --> 00:27:13,665 and it's, it's a, it's a tough one to answer, you know, 567 00:27:13,905 --> 00:27:16,985 I mean, one, one thing that I, I think is, it kind 568 00:27:16,985 --> 00:27:20,025 of puts renewable energy at a disadvantage is the fact that, 569 00:27:20,125 --> 00:27:21,465 you know, with, with oil 570 00:27:21,485 --> 00:27:25,945 and gas, you have a royalty rate, um, which is a percent 571 00:27:25,975 --> 00:27:28,345 that, you know, is the companies have 572 00:27:28,345 --> 00:27:29,585 to pay when they produce oil 573 00:27:29,585 --> 00:27:32,025 and gas on federal lands, half of which goes back 574 00:27:32,025 --> 00:27:33,185 to the American taxpayer, 575 00:27:33,205 --> 00:27:35,625 and half of which goes back to the state on which the, 576 00:27:36,085 --> 00:27:38,905 the land is, uh, the production is happening. 577 00:27:39,485 --> 00:27:42,265 Um, that that doesn't happen with, uh, 578 00:27:42,455 --> 00:27:44,265 with renewable energy projects. 579 00:27:44,405 --> 00:27:46,025 You know, there, there are rents 580 00:27:46,045 --> 00:27:48,065 and there are megawatt capacity fees, 581 00:27:48,245 --> 00:27:50,865 but that all goes straight back into the federal coffer. 582 00:27:51,045 --> 00:27:53,265 It doesn't go back to communities in the same way. 583 00:27:53,365 --> 00:27:57,745 So it's, it's, uh, it's, it's a really tricky balance, 584 00:27:58,285 --> 00:27:59,985 or it, it's a it's a really 585 00:27:59,985 --> 00:28:01,305 tricky issue, I should say. 586 00:28:01,765 --> 00:28:04,625 Um, because, you know, that requires legislation. 587 00:28:04,625 --> 00:28:07,665 That's not something that can be solved via, via regulation 588 00:28:07,685 --> 00:28:10,065 or via the, this programmatic EIS 589 00:28:10,365 --> 00:28:13,505 and, um, you know, so it, 590 00:28:14,325 --> 00:28:17,625 it would be a lot easier to be able to reach out to those, 591 00:28:17,675 --> 00:28:20,185 those communities with those types of concerns with, 592 00:28:20,325 --> 00:28:23,105 you know, something substantial like revenue. 593 00:28:23,725 --> 00:28:26,345 Um, and I know that one thing that 594 00:28:26,375 --> 00:28:29,345 that could be considered in the programmatic design features 595 00:28:29,605 --> 00:28:31,945 is, uh, something called a community benefit agreement. 596 00:28:32,485 --> 00:28:36,945 Um, which, uh, is, you know, a a way 597 00:28:37,045 --> 00:28:40,025 for renewable energy companies to work with communities 598 00:28:40,025 --> 00:28:44,185 to ensure that they also benefit from the production 599 00:28:44,185 --> 00:28:46,585 that occurs from the po the panels next 600 00:28:46,585 --> 00:28:49,145 to their communities, instead of it just being shipped, 601 00:28:49,245 --> 00:28:51,185 you know, across state lines, for instance. 602 00:28:51,885 --> 00:28:54,265 - Um, Justin, thank you so much for your thoughts. 603 00:28:54,465 --> 00:28:57,785 I do have, I, one more question for you, which is, 604 00:28:58,325 --> 00:29:01,025 it sounds like this solar plan is, is a good step forward, 605 00:29:01,205 --> 00:29:04,145 if not the most comprehensive step ever. 606 00:29:04,725 --> 00:29:07,385 Um, do you have any other thoughts you wanna share on solar 607 00:29:07,385 --> 00:29:09,625 development at large, sort of, um, 608 00:29:09,685 --> 00:29:11,825 beyond the, just this plan? I, 609 00:29:11,825 --> 00:29:12,825 - Yeah. 610 00:29:12,825 --> 00:29:13,505 Thank you for the question, Kate. 611 00:29:13,565 --> 00:29:16,265 And, and I, you know, one thing that, 612 00:29:16,265 --> 00:29:19,025 that I hear a lot from folks is, you know, 613 00:29:20,565 --> 00:29:23,025 we should develop on, uh, we, 614 00:29:23,025 --> 00:29:26,825 we should put solar panels on rooftops and over parking lots 615 00:29:27,045 --> 00:29:31,185 and, um, you know, over previously disturbed sites 616 00:29:31,185 --> 00:29:34,825 that are not necessarily federal land or, um, you know, 617 00:29:34,825 --> 00:29:39,385 and XY, z, other places that are not, um, not public lands. 618 00:29:40,085 --> 00:29:42,925 And we should invest in energy efficiency. 619 00:29:43,025 --> 00:29:45,325 And, you know, I think it's all of the above, right? 620 00:29:45,795 --> 00:29:50,005 Like building on building rooftop solar is an 621 00:29:50,005 --> 00:29:51,125 important part of the equation. 622 00:29:51,545 --> 00:29:55,005 And working on energy efficiency is part of the equation. 623 00:29:55,385 --> 00:29:57,365 And we, at the Wilderness Society also believe that 624 00:29:58,065 --> 00:30:01,915 our nation's treasure federal public lands should be part 625 00:30:01,915 --> 00:30:06,435 of the climate solution, um, by accommodating, 626 00:30:06,735 --> 00:30:11,035 uh, solar and wind in geothermal, um, 627 00:30:11,375 --> 00:30:13,995 and that they have vast, uh, resources 628 00:30:13,995 --> 00:30:16,995 that can help power our renewable energy future. 629 00:30:17,295 --> 00:30:20,235 So it's not just either or, it's, it's, and um, 630 00:30:21,095 --> 00:30:24,875 and, uh, we're just really invested in making sure 631 00:30:24,875 --> 00:30:27,115 that it's done right and responsibly 632 00:30:27,415 --> 00:30:29,315 and with the involvement of all the people 633 00:30:29,535 --> 00:30:31,355 who would be affected by it. 634 00:30:31,575 --> 00:30:33,835 Um, you know, either directly or, or indirectly. 635 00:30:34,935 --> 00:30:36,255 - I think that's a great place to leave it. 636 00:30:36,475 --> 00:30:39,615 Justin Muse, director of Government Relations for Climate 637 00:30:39,715 --> 00:30:41,455 and Energy at the Wilderness Society. 638 00:30:41,745 --> 00:30:43,215 Thank you so much for your time today. 639 00:30:43,745 --> 00:30:44,215 - Thank you. 640 00:30:49,225 --> 00:30:51,035 - Well, we've got some good news this week. 641 00:30:51,095 --> 00:30:53,795 It is new polling from the Colorado College 642 00:30:53,925 --> 00:30:55,235 State of the Rockies Project. 643 00:30:55,975 --> 00:30:58,115 It shows that a vast majority 644 00:30:58,175 --> 00:31:01,475 of Western voters support conservation of public lands, 645 00:31:01,475 --> 00:31:04,075 and they are more worried than ever about the loss 646 00:31:04,075 --> 00:31:05,635 of habitat and natural areas. 647 00:31:06,245 --> 00:31:07,395 There were a ton 648 00:31:07,415 --> 00:31:10,675 of important numbers in this 14th annual state 649 00:31:10,675 --> 00:31:12,875 of the Rockies conservation in the West Poll. 650 00:31:13,105 --> 00:31:15,795 Here are just a few of our favorites, 651 00:31:15,895 --> 00:31:17,835 and maybe even you could say most important 652 00:31:17,835 --> 00:31:19,075 numbers to pay attention to. 653 00:31:19,605 --> 00:31:23,355 First of all, the 30 by 30 goal to protect 30% 654 00:31:23,355 --> 00:31:25,075 of America's land and water. 655 00:31:25,135 --> 00:31:29,395 By the end of the decade, 83% of Utah voters 656 00:31:29,935 --> 00:31:33,675 say they support the 30 by 30 goal that is tied, uh, 657 00:31:33,735 --> 00:31:36,075 for a high along with voters in Colorado. 658 00:31:36,895 --> 00:31:39,275 Uh, really just a, a stunningly large number 659 00:31:39,335 --> 00:31:40,795 and really highlights the gap 660 00:31:40,865 --> 00:31:43,635 between Utah voters on conservation 661 00:31:43,695 --> 00:31:46,955 and Utah politicians across the mountain West. 662 00:31:47,185 --> 00:31:50,795 70% of voters say they would prefer their member of Congress 663 00:31:50,795 --> 00:31:53,155 to focus on protecting air, water, 664 00:31:53,215 --> 00:31:55,995 and habitat, rather than maximizing energy 665 00:31:55,995 --> 00:31:57,475 production on public land. 666 00:31:58,055 --> 00:32:01,275 85% of Westerners support the creation 667 00:32:01,295 --> 00:32:03,995 of new protected areas on public lands. 668 00:32:04,225 --> 00:32:07,155 That is also the same number, 85% who say 669 00:32:07,155 --> 00:32:10,115 that environmental issues are important to how they vote. 670 00:32:10,735 --> 00:32:14,595 And finally, for now, over 70% of Western voters say 671 00:32:14,595 --> 00:32:17,435 that climate change is a serious problem in their state. 672 00:32:17,885 --> 00:32:19,315 Three quarters of them 673 00:32:19,895 --> 00:32:23,355 say they think we can develop renewable energy sources while 674 00:32:23,585 --> 00:32:25,475 also preserving wildlife habitat. 675 00:32:25,475 --> 00:32:28,315 They do not see it as an either or situation. 676 00:32:38,485 --> 00:32:40,285 - We'll link to that poll in the show notes, 677 00:32:40,665 --> 00:32:42,085 and we'll be talking to the pollsters 678 00:32:42,085 --> 00:32:44,485 who conducted it in the next episode of the landscape. 679 00:32:44,785 --> 00:32:46,725 So tune in for that show if you want to learn more, 680 00:32:46,985 --> 00:32:48,965 and send us your questions for the pollsters, 681 00:32:49,265 --> 00:32:52,045 that's podcast@westernpriorities.org. 682 00:32:52,505 --> 00:32:54,685 You can also send other feedback, like compliments 683 00:32:54,705 --> 00:32:56,365 or episode ideas to that address. 684 00:32:56,545 --> 00:32:57,885 We love hearing your thoughts. 685 00:32:58,265 --> 00:32:59,485 - We even love hearing your complaints. 686 00:32:59,515 --> 00:33:00,845 It's okay if you wanna complain too. 687 00:33:01,185 --> 00:33:03,885 Uh, thanks again to Justin for chatting with us today, 688 00:33:04,305 --> 00:33:06,405 and thank you for listening to the landscape.