1 00:00:00,105 --> 00:00:00,145 - 2 00:00:06,855 --> 00:00:08,145 - Welcome to the Landscape, 3 00:00:08,145 --> 00:00:10,305 your show about America's parks and public lands. 4 00:00:10,405 --> 00:00:11,625 I'm Erin Weiss with the Center 5 00:00:11,625 --> 00:00:14,545 for Western Priorities in an unseasonably warm 6 00:00:14,545 --> 00:00:15,625 Denver, Colorado today. 7 00:00:16,165 --> 00:00:18,545 - And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City, 8 00:00:18,555 --> 00:00:21,865 where it also is pretty warm, but the air is clear. 9 00:00:22,005 --> 00:00:24,825 So yay for that. Today's episode is a 10 00:00:24,825 --> 00:00:25,865 little different than usual. 11 00:00:26,255 --> 00:00:27,345 It's a quick check-in 12 00:00:27,345 --> 00:00:29,465 with a forest expert on the recent news 13 00:00:29,495 --> 00:00:31,745 that the Biden administration is taking steps 14 00:00:31,805 --> 00:00:33,585 to protect old growth forests. 15 00:00:34,165 --> 00:00:35,225 Our guest today is Dr. 16 00:00:35,225 --> 00:00:39,385 Dominic Dalala, chief scientist at Wild Heritage, a project 17 00:00:39,485 --> 00:00:40,905 of the Earth Island Institute. 18 00:00:41,405 --> 00:00:43,705 We had Dr. Della on the pod back in June 19 00:00:43,845 --> 00:00:45,905 to talk about the Biden administration's efforts 20 00:00:45,965 --> 00:00:47,625 to protect old growth forests. 21 00:00:48,125 --> 00:00:50,585 At the time, the Forest Service had just released data 22 00:00:50,735 --> 00:00:53,105 that it had found more than 32 million acres 23 00:00:53,105 --> 00:00:56,225 of old growth forests remain intact on public 24 00:00:56,275 --> 00:00:57,545 lands in the United States. 25 00:00:58,205 --> 00:00:59,665 The administration took a big step 26 00:00:59,685 --> 00:01:02,225 to protect those trees this week with the announcement 27 00:01:02,225 --> 00:01:05,425 that it plans to ban commercial logging in all old growth 28 00:01:05,425 --> 00:01:06,905 forests on federal land. 29 00:01:07,205 --> 00:01:09,145 Thanks for being here, Dr. Dalala. 30 00:01:09,775 --> 00:01:11,305 - Yeah, thanks for having me on your show again. 31 00:01:12,845 --> 00:01:15,545 - So, first off, how big of a deal is this announcement? 32 00:01:16,285 --> 00:01:17,745 - You know, I think it's really great 33 00:01:17,855 --> 00:01:21,425 that the Biden administration has recognized the importance 34 00:01:21,425 --> 00:01:24,385 of older forests and the nation's, uh, federal lands. 35 00:01:24,895 --> 00:01:27,505 It's a long time coming, you know, we're down to 36 00:01:27,565 --> 00:01:30,225 so little left proportionate to the rest 37 00:01:30,245 --> 00:01:33,185 of the forest landscape that has been heavily logged, 38 00:01:33,695 --> 00:01:37,305 that these are really the anchor points of biodiversity 39 00:01:37,725 --> 00:01:41,625 and clean drinking water and climate stabilization. 40 00:01:41,965 --> 00:01:44,545 So they're absolutely critical in 41 00:01:44,545 --> 00:01:47,545 how the nation addresses climate change, in addition 42 00:01:47,545 --> 00:01:50,785 to getting off of fossil fuels by treating these forests 43 00:01:50,785 --> 00:01:52,585 as natural climate solutions. 44 00:01:53,245 --> 00:01:56,745 Now, having said that, while it's an important step forward, 45 00:01:56,875 --> 00:02:00,385 there are many questions that are really concerning to me 46 00:02:00,495 --> 00:02:03,785 that, that at this point of the announcement, 47 00:02:03,815 --> 00:02:06,065 perhaps they have not gone far enough 48 00:02:06,645 --> 00:02:08,745 in what's really needed to ensure 49 00:02:08,745 --> 00:02:11,705 that these forests are protected for future generations. 50 00:02:11,925 --> 00:02:13,145 I'm just not convinced yet. 51 00:02:16,065 --> 00:02:19,915 Well, uh, there is language in there about exemptions 52 00:02:19,915 --> 00:02:21,715 that allow for quote, 53 00:02:22,355 --> 00:02:26,875 ecologically appropriate timber harvest, uh, and end quote. 54 00:02:27,175 --> 00:02:29,635 And, you know, I kind of look at it this way. 55 00:02:30,135 --> 00:02:32,435 Uh, I've been to the Louvre in Paris 56 00:02:33,255 --> 00:02:35,475 and I would never dream about going in there 57 00:02:35,475 --> 00:02:37,875 with a paintbrush trying to fix the Mona Lisa. 58 00:02:39,105 --> 00:02:42,125 Why would you need to go into an old forest 59 00:02:42,135 --> 00:02:44,885 where the chainsaw thinking it needs to be fixed? 60 00:02:45,475 --> 00:02:47,045 There's no cause 61 00:02:47,145 --> 00:02:49,965 or reason ecologically for any kind 62 00:02:49,965 --> 00:02:53,245 of commercial timber harvest inside these forests. 63 00:02:53,355 --> 00:02:55,885 It's can you just restrain yourself 64 00:02:56,425 --> 00:02:57,885 and appreciate the beauty 65 00:02:58,385 --> 00:03:02,085 and the benefits that we get uniquely from these forests. 66 00:03:02,555 --> 00:03:05,685 They don't need the kind of management that the areas 67 00:03:05,715 --> 00:03:07,925 that have already been logged need, 68 00:03:08,015 --> 00:03:09,965 which is restoration and a lot of love. 69 00:03:10,705 --> 00:03:12,445 All we need to do with these forests is 70 00:03:12,445 --> 00:03:13,485 let them do their thing. 71 00:03:14,585 --> 00:03:17,845 - So I think that gets up my next question, which was, from 72 00:03:17,955 --> 00:03:19,445 what I read about the announcement, 73 00:03:19,745 --> 00:03:22,845 it sounds like the Forest Service will still allow thinning 74 00:03:22,985 --> 00:03:24,005 for fire control. 75 00:03:24,505 --> 00:03:26,165 And it sounds like that's a, that's a problem. 76 00:03:27,485 --> 00:03:31,445 - I I think it is because it's based on this failed policy, 77 00:03:31,985 --> 00:03:36,525 uh, writ large that, you know, the agency's throwing, uh, 78 00:03:37,005 --> 00:03:41,285 millions of dollars into thinning and fire suppression 79 00:03:41,745 --> 00:03:44,885 and yet acres burning are, are, are going up. 80 00:03:45,345 --> 00:03:47,765 And it's because the climate change signal is 81 00:03:48,325 --> 00:03:51,205 overwhelming anything that's going on the ground. 82 00:03:51,705 --> 00:03:55,605 And so in the process of trying to tame fires, 83 00:03:56,465 --> 00:03:59,235 they're putting more emissions into the atmosphere than the 84 00:03:59,245 --> 00:04:02,555 fires themselves, which is causing this feedback 85 00:04:02,705 --> 00:04:05,635 between extreme fire weather and logged areas. 86 00:04:06,415 --> 00:04:09,395 So these are the last places you wanna go and tinker. 87 00:04:09,395 --> 00:04:12,875 There are plenty places in the industrial logged areas 88 00:04:13,185 --> 00:04:16,595 that need, uh, restoration and better care. 89 00:04:16,725 --> 00:04:20,355 These older forests burn in lower fire intensities 90 00:04:21,095 --> 00:04:23,275 and act as climate strongholds. 91 00:04:23,335 --> 00:04:25,515 So they don't need the kind of tinkering 92 00:04:25,865 --> 00:04:28,555 that the degraded areas are in need of. 93 00:04:28,615 --> 00:04:31,275 And yet this is where the priority is. It's misplaced. 94 00:04:32,585 --> 00:04:35,005 - So what about controlled burns in 95 00:04:35,005 --> 00:04:36,365 these old growth forests? 96 00:04:36,425 --> 00:04:40,685 Are there places where there may have been natural wildfire, 97 00:04:41,065 --> 00:04:42,885 but for the suppression policies 98 00:04:42,885 --> 00:04:43,925 over the last a hundred years? 99 00:04:44,315 --> 00:04:46,125 - Yeah, I think you could do prescribed burning 100 00:04:46,145 --> 00:04:49,325 and certainly cultural burning practice from indigenous 101 00:04:49,385 --> 00:04:52,925 people would be compatible with forest conservation 102 00:04:53,225 --> 00:04:56,725 and the use of in, of, of cultural resources 103 00:04:56,745 --> 00:04:59,565 by the indigenous communities, totally in support of that. 104 00:05:00,145 --> 00:05:02,845 But we also have got to work with fire 105 00:05:02,945 --> 00:05:06,485 for ecosystem benefits under the right conditions 106 00:05:07,035 --> 00:05:09,965 when they're not burning or threatening communities. 107 00:05:10,545 --> 00:05:13,485 The only way you're gonna maintain the processes 108 00:05:13,625 --> 00:05:16,725 and the functions in these forests is to work 109 00:05:16,755 --> 00:05:18,005 with those processes. 110 00:05:18,425 --> 00:05:20,885 And we know that when fires burn in these areas, 111 00:05:21,315 --> 00:05:23,325 they're kind of a mosaic burn pattern. 112 00:05:24,265 --> 00:05:28,285 And we see levels of biodiversity in these burned forests 113 00:05:28,285 --> 00:05:30,845 that are comparable to the old growth forests. 114 00:05:30,845 --> 00:05:35,445 So again, no need to tinker, uh, work with wild, uh, 115 00:05:35,475 --> 00:05:37,685 land fire for ecosystem benefits, 116 00:05:37,865 --> 00:05:41,005 but in cases where you want to introduce fire 117 00:05:41,145 --> 00:05:42,165 for some benefits 118 00:05:42,345 --> 00:05:44,845 and especially cultural, that's compatible 119 00:05:44,845 --> 00:05:46,605 with conservation, I believe. 120 00:05:48,405 --> 00:05:50,185 - So switching gears a little bit here. 121 00:05:50,255 --> 00:05:54,065 This is the first time the Forest Service has proposed, um, 122 00:05:54,065 --> 00:05:56,865 simultaneously revising all 128 123 00:05:56,865 --> 00:05:58,285 of its forest management plans. 124 00:05:58,425 --> 00:05:59,765 That's a lot. I mean, 125 00:05:59,765 --> 00:06:02,325 even just revising one management plan is a lot . 126 00:06:02,625 --> 00:06:04,685 Um, do you think the government has the 127 00:06:04,845 --> 00:06:06,045 resources to do this? 128 00:06:07,485 --> 00:06:10,525 - I guess that is yet to be determined , uh, 129 00:06:10,545 --> 00:06:11,965 and they're on a fast track, 130 00:06:12,465 --> 00:06:16,205 and I hope that in the process of doing this, 131 00:06:16,205 --> 00:06:17,925 there's strong enough guidance in there. 132 00:06:18,085 --> 00:06:20,405 I, like I said, I've got concerns 133 00:06:21,075 --> 00:06:24,285 that there are standards in the amendment 134 00:06:24,395 --> 00:06:26,485 that are a little bit stronger than guidance, 135 00:06:27,465 --> 00:06:30,525 but even those standards have exemptions, they allow 136 00:06:30,525 --> 00:06:33,805 for some logging of old growth on the tongass rainforest in 137 00:06:33,805 --> 00:06:36,765 Alaska, which is totally unacceptable. 138 00:06:36,835 --> 00:06:40,205 They really need to be shifting all of the logging out 139 00:06:40,205 --> 00:06:43,205 of old growth and into secondary forests 140 00:06:43,205 --> 00:06:45,605 that already have been logged previously. 141 00:06:46,075 --> 00:06:47,765 There's no need for that exemption. 142 00:06:47,765 --> 00:06:50,445 There are other exemptions in there that, uh, 143 00:06:50,445 --> 00:06:54,525 when you read them on face value, they could be interpreted 144 00:06:54,525 --> 00:06:58,285 as way too much discretion for local, uh, 145 00:06:58,285 --> 00:06:59,565 forest plan revisions 146 00:06:59,565 --> 00:07:02,885 that may not be strong enough on these forest protections. 147 00:07:04,985 --> 00:07:07,605 - So I guess that gets to the question of implementation 148 00:07:07,865 --> 00:07:10,605 and how these plans 149 00:07:10,705 --> 00:07:13,325 and how this old growth rule will be implemented. 150 00:07:13,705 --> 00:07:16,765 Uh, what does that look like, you think over the next year 151 00:07:16,865 --> 00:07:19,205 and what does it look like potentially if there's a change 152 00:07:19,205 --> 00:07:22,765 of administration at the end of 2024, beginning of 2025? 153 00:07:23,485 --> 00:07:24,655 - There's not a lot of time. 154 00:07:24,995 --> 00:07:29,815 And so there are really pushing through some, uh, important 155 00:07:30,415 --> 00:07:34,055 conservation measures in a very short time space. 156 00:07:34,795 --> 00:07:37,935 And I wish there were more time for this to kind 157 00:07:37,935 --> 00:07:40,855 of percolate better, but this is the situation we're in now. 158 00:07:41,315 --> 00:07:44,775 And the hope is that through the public comment period 159 00:07:45,235 --> 00:07:47,535 and input from scientists, uh, 160 00:07:47,695 --> 00:07:51,015 especially independent scientists, they'll be willing 161 00:07:51,035 --> 00:07:53,415 to make some changes to tighten that language. 162 00:07:53,995 --> 00:07:58,495 Now, whether or not it's lasting, you know, depends on 163 00:07:58,635 --> 00:08:00,015 who the next president is 164 00:08:00,595 --> 00:08:03,655 and if it's he that shall not be named, uh, 165 00:08:03,835 --> 00:08:06,415 all betts are off and it could go completely 166 00:08:06,755 --> 00:08:07,935 the opposite direction. 167 00:08:08,075 --> 00:08:09,295 So it's always a risk. 168 00:08:09,755 --> 00:08:12,575 You know, I was involved in the roadless conservation rule 169 00:08:12,645 --> 00:08:15,095 when President Clinton did that in 2000, 170 00:08:15,675 --> 00:08:17,455 and here we are, uh, 171 00:08:17,455 --> 00:08:20,295 23 years later still defending that rule. 172 00:08:20,595 --> 00:08:23,255 It, there's been multiple attempts to weaken it 173 00:08:23,395 --> 00:08:24,575 and it's still standing. 174 00:08:25,155 --> 00:08:27,215 And so my hope is 175 00:08:27,215 --> 00:08:31,695 that the Biden administration will adopt a, a mechanism, 176 00:08:31,935 --> 00:08:34,495 a policy mechanism that can stand the test 177 00:08:34,555 --> 00:08:38,255 of time like the Roadless rule did, despite 178 00:08:38,595 --> 00:08:40,095 who the next administration is. 179 00:08:41,605 --> 00:08:43,735 - Well, that seems like a good place to leave it, 180 00:08:43,995 --> 00:08:46,455 but I do wanna ask, is there anything else you think folks 181 00:08:46,455 --> 00:08:47,775 should know about this news? 182 00:08:48,595 --> 00:08:52,175 - Uh, yeah, I think that this is a good first step. 183 00:08:52,605 --> 00:08:56,565 It's not strong enough to really kind of lead by example. 184 00:08:57,345 --> 00:09:00,365 You know, this administration has done three 185 00:09:00,365 --> 00:09:01,485 really important things. 186 00:09:02,275 --> 00:09:04,885 They, uh, are part of the Paris Climate Agreement, 187 00:09:05,175 --> 00:09:08,045 which includes maintaining stocks of carbon 188 00:09:08,185 --> 00:09:09,405 and reservoirs of carbon. 189 00:09:10,035 --> 00:09:13,325 They also signed onto the Glasgow Forest Pledge 190 00:09:13,705 --> 00:09:16,165 to end forest losses by 2030. 191 00:09:16,865 --> 00:09:20,005 And the president did the 30 by 30 announcement, you know, 192 00:09:20,005 --> 00:09:21,805 protect 30% by 2030. 193 00:09:22,835 --> 00:09:25,035 I don't think that this language goes strong, 194 00:09:25,095 --> 00:09:29,315 is strong enough for any of those pledges and policies. 195 00:09:29,415 --> 00:09:31,315 So they really have got the, tighten this up 196 00:09:32,095 --> 00:09:33,515 to even be consistent with 197 00:09:33,515 --> 00:09:35,875 what the president has laid out previously 198 00:09:36,335 --> 00:09:38,435 and to send a message to the rest of the world 199 00:09:38,545 --> 00:09:40,275 that, Hey, look at us. 200 00:09:40,495 --> 00:09:42,075 We can do this and so can you. 201 00:09:42,425 --> 00:09:44,075 - Awesome. Well, Dr. 202 00:09:44,075 --> 00:09:47,475 Dominic Dalala, chief scientist at Wild Heritage, thank you 203 00:09:47,575 --> 00:09:48,995 so much for being with us again. 204 00:09:49,415 --> 00:09:51,195 - You bet. Thanks again for having me on. 205 00:09:55,865 --> 00:09:57,955 - Alright, we are gonna keep this one short today, 206 00:09:57,955 --> 00:09:59,795 but we will leave you with a little good news 207 00:09:59,815 --> 00:10:02,635 for the holidays, which is that Colorado has officially 208 00:10:03,235 --> 00:10:04,235 reintroduced wolves. 209 00:10:05,075 --> 00:10:08,115 Colorado wildlife officials captured five wolves in Oregon 210 00:10:08,215 --> 00:10:10,435 and flew them to Colorado for release. 211 00:10:10,855 --> 00:10:14,515 The wolves include two juvenile females, two juvenile males, 212 00:10:14,615 --> 00:10:15,795 and one adult male. 213 00:10:16,415 --> 00:10:19,395 The wolves are expected to immediately disperse from 214 00:10:19,395 --> 00:10:21,795 that release site, travel up to 70 miles, 215 00:10:21,975 --> 00:10:23,515 and stay on the move for several weeks 216 00:10:23,685 --> 00:10:25,675 until they find their new homes. 217 00:10:26,445 --> 00:10:29,795 These wolves are the first of up to 50 that are expected 218 00:10:29,795 --> 00:10:32,275 to be released over the next three to five years. 219 00:10:33,115 --> 00:10:35,475 Colorado parks and wildlife plans to release up 220 00:10:35,475 --> 00:10:38,675 to 10 wolves from Oregon between December and March 221 00:10:39,095 --> 00:10:41,555 before restarting releases next winter. 222 00:10:41,985 --> 00:10:43,235 This is, as you'll recall, 223 00:10:43,255 --> 00:10:46,155 the first voter mandated wolf reintroduction 224 00:10:46,295 --> 00:10:47,395 in the United States. 225 00:10:48,375 --> 00:10:50,395 - That's right. Best of luck to those wolves. 226 00:10:50,495 --> 00:10:54,395 Um, unfortunately their names are things like B 5 92 6, 227 00:10:54,575 --> 00:10:57,355 so hopefully folks will come up with some better names 228 00:10:57,355 --> 00:10:58,715 for them and we can cheer them on. 229 00:10:59,215 --> 00:11:00,675 - You know, I'm, I'm okay with that. 230 00:11:00,735 --> 00:11:03,355 It is at the end of the day, science, they're not 231 00:11:04,155 --> 00:11:05,155 - . 232 00:11:05,155 --> 00:11:05,155 Fair enough. 233 00:11:14,175 --> 00:11:15,635 That's all for today's episode. 234 00:11:15,815 --> 00:11:17,755 If you like this quick news analysis format, 235 00:11:17,755 --> 00:11:21,115 please let us know at podcast@westernpriorities.org. 236 00:11:21,415 --> 00:11:23,675 We could definitely make this a more regular thing. 237 00:11:24,615 --> 00:11:25,675 - Thanks again to Dr. 238 00:11:25,855 --> 00:11:27,715 DLA Sala for taking time to talk with us. 239 00:11:28,245 --> 00:11:30,115 Thank you for listening to the landscape 240 00:11:30,335 --> 00:11:32,995 and wherever you are, I hope you have a very happy holiday.