1 00:00:00,455 --> 00:00:01,288 . 2 00:00:07,085 --> 00:00:10,775 Welcome to the Landscape, your show about America's parks and public lands. 3 00:00:10,795 --> 00:00:14,055 I'm Erin Weiss with the Center for Western Priorities in Denver this week. 4 00:00:14,475 --> 00:00:17,855 And I'm Kate Retinger in Salt Lake City. Today on the pod, 5 00:00:17,855 --> 00:00:22,335 we're talking about a new plan from the BLM that closes a number of dirt roads 6 00:00:22,335 --> 00:00:25,255 around Moab in order to better protect the back country. 7 00:00:25,875 --> 00:00:27,415 You may have seen it in the news lately. 8 00:00:27,805 --> 00:00:31,335 It's called the Labyrinth Canyon Gemini Bridges Travel Management Plan, 9 00:00:31,595 --> 00:00:33,895 and off-roading groups are not happy about it. 10 00:00:34,185 --> 00:00:38,255 We've got Southern Utah Wilderness Attorney Laura Peterson here to tell us more 11 00:00:38,255 --> 00:00:41,135 about the plan. But before we get to that, let's do the news. 12 00:00:42,295 --> 00:00:46,775 A coalition of senators led by the Colorado and New Mexico delegations are 13 00:00:46,775 --> 00:00:50,615 pushing the Bureau of Land Management to finish updating its bonding 14 00:00:50,615 --> 00:00:54,735 requirements for oil and gas companies that drill on American public lands. 15 00:00:55,315 --> 00:00:56,295 The agency, of course, 16 00:00:56,315 --> 00:01:00,335 is in the process of raising those rates through a formal rulemaking process, 17 00:01:00,955 --> 00:01:05,175 but some Republican members of Congress are trying to derail that proposed rule 18 00:01:05,175 --> 00:01:07,775 before it ever gets to the finish line. Right now, 19 00:01:07,835 --> 00:01:10,255 as we are taping this on Thursday morning, 20 00:01:10,355 --> 00:01:14,135 the house is considering an amendment to the interior department's spending bill 21 00:01:14,135 --> 00:01:16,175 that would stop the rulemaking entirely. 22 00:01:16,805 --> 00:01:21,335 That amendment and a matching standalone bill are being sponsored by Colorado's 23 00:01:21,335 --> 00:01:22,455 own national embarrassment, 24 00:01:22,735 --> 00:01:27,015 Congresswoman Lauren Bobert Bonding requirements you'll recall are essentially 25 00:01:27,015 --> 00:01:30,975 collateral payments that companies put up to ensure there's enough money to plug 26 00:01:31,035 --> 00:01:35,855 and remediate and clean up oil and gas wells when they finish producing 27 00:01:35,915 --> 00:01:38,495 oil. Now, unfortunately, M's. 28 00:01:38,495 --> 00:01:41,775 Current bonding requirements haven't been updated in 50 years. 29 00:01:41,885 --> 00:01:45,975 They are woefully inadequate to cover the actual cleanup costs. 30 00:01:46,595 --> 00:01:50,135 The government accountability office flagged this issue back in 2019. 31 00:01:50,235 --> 00:01:54,935 It warned the agency that it needed to raise rates in order to protect taxpayers 32 00:01:54,935 --> 00:01:58,775 from being stuck with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of cleanup 33 00:01:58,775 --> 00:02:00,935 potentially. So each new, 34 00:02:00,935 --> 00:02:05,495 well that is permitted today with an inadequate bond represents potentially 35 00:02:05,935 --> 00:02:09,495 thousands of dollars that taxpayers could end up on the hook for. 36 00:02:10,765 --> 00:02:13,095 Also, it's Native American Heritage Month. 37 00:02:13,245 --> 00:02:16,575 There's a lot of exciting stuff going on in the realm of tribal co-management 38 00:02:16,575 --> 00:02:20,455 these days. According to an article by Anna V. Smith in High Country News, 39 00:02:20,845 --> 00:02:24,495 from the development of a management plan for Bears Ears to the recent creation 40 00:02:24,495 --> 00:02:25,655 of the BJJ Nav show, 41 00:02:25,765 --> 00:02:29,455 IITA Coveney and ancestral footprints of the Grand Canyon National Monument, 42 00:02:30,075 --> 00:02:33,695 the interior department is looking to tribes more than ever to help manage 43 00:02:33,695 --> 00:02:37,215 public lands between 2021 and 2022. 44 00:02:37,595 --> 00:02:42,095 The interior department and the USDA signed 20 new COS stewardship Agreements 45 00:02:42,095 --> 00:02:44,935 with Tribal nations with another 60 in development. 46 00:02:45,085 --> 00:02:47,335 That was according to a press release from last November. 47 00:02:47,785 --> 00:02:50,015 We'll drop a link to that article in the show notes. 48 00:02:53,345 --> 00:02:55,295 We're joined today by Laura Peterson, 49 00:02:55,305 --> 00:02:59,725 staff attorney at the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance to talk about a new BLM 50 00:02:59,725 --> 00:03:01,725 plan for recreation in the Moab area, 51 00:03:02,445 --> 00:03:06,485 specifically a travel plan that prioritizes conservation by limiting off-Road 52 00:03:06,485 --> 00:03:09,485 travel in some areas. Laura, thanks for being here. 53 00:03:09,865 --> 00:03:11,165 Thanks so much for having me. 54 00:03:12,575 --> 00:03:15,315 All right. So let's start with the basics. What is a motor? 55 00:03:15,425 --> 00:03:20,235 What is ABLM motorized vehicle travel management plan in general? 56 00:03:20,495 --> 00:03:22,235 And why are, are these necessary? 57 00:03:23,295 --> 00:03:28,155 So a travel management plan determines where motorized vehicles are 58 00:03:28,155 --> 00:03:32,715 allowed to travel across BLM lands. So it designates a route network, 59 00:03:33,295 --> 00:03:37,235 and the reason why they're important and why they're significant is because it 60 00:03:37,235 --> 00:03:41,875 has a really large impact on how the agency manages land. 61 00:03:42,015 --> 00:03:42,848 You know, 62 00:03:43,055 --> 00:03:47,625 motorized vehicles have a pretty significant impact on natural cultural 63 00:03:47,865 --> 00:03:50,825 resources. So where there's sort of concentrated use, 64 00:03:51,015 --> 00:03:54,865 there's a lot of sacrifice of resources, and then, you know, 65 00:03:54,865 --> 00:03:58,585 they can sort of make conservation decisions in a way 66 00:03:59,805 --> 00:04:02,665 by, um, how they designate that network. 67 00:04:04,005 --> 00:04:08,025 And just to clarify, we're talking mostly about dirt roads, right? 68 00:04:08,725 --> 00:04:13,465 Yes. This is all dirt roads and many of these roads are really, 69 00:04:13,725 --> 00:04:18,465 um, you know, there are a few roads here that are like graded dirt roads, 70 00:04:18,465 --> 00:04:19,625 easy to travel in a sedan, 71 00:04:19,625 --> 00:04:24,225 but most of these are like four-wheel drive dirt roads or motorcycle 72 00:04:24,655 --> 00:04:26,385 dirt bike routes, that kind of thing. 73 00:04:27,605 --> 00:04:31,225 So is are, are motorized vehicle travel management plans, 74 00:04:31,285 --> 00:04:35,705 do these exist on all public lands everywhere or is this something that we see a 75 00:04:35,705 --> 00:04:39,905 lot of in particular in southern Utah? Because off-roading is so, so big. 76 00:04:41,085 --> 00:04:45,385 So they, the travel management plans are on BLM Lands, 77 00:04:45,385 --> 00:04:49,345 forest Service lands. Um, what you see in BLM, whether, you know, 78 00:04:50,425 --> 00:04:55,075 what we're talking about here in terms of why it's significant is 79 00:04:55,755 --> 00:04:59,915 a lot of like UTV side-by-side, ATV, um, 80 00:05:00,225 --> 00:05:02,115 dirt bike kind of use. Um, 81 00:05:02,215 --> 00:05:05,235 it does designate routes for all motorized vehicles, 82 00:05:05,255 --> 00:05:09,395 but the sort of more controversial routes are those that are most, 83 00:05:10,105 --> 00:05:12,765 um, suitable for those kind of vehicles. 84 00:05:12,865 --> 00:05:15,645 So we're, we're talking off-roading, here is the controversy. 85 00:05:16,055 --> 00:05:17,285 Right? Absolutely, yeah. 86 00:05:18,145 --> 00:05:19,325 All right. Well, on that note, 87 00:05:19,375 --> 00:05:23,045 let's get specific and talk about this Labyrinth Canyon plan. 88 00:05:23,615 --> 00:05:26,165 Which lands are included in this plan, 89 00:05:26,265 --> 00:05:29,565 and how many miles of road are on those lands currently? 90 00:05:30,945 --> 00:05:34,565 So the Labyrinth, rims, genera, Gemini Bridges area, 91 00:05:34,595 --> 00:05:37,965 it's like a 300,000 acre area that's just outside of Moab. 92 00:05:38,195 --> 00:05:41,885 It's a popular destination. So currently, um, 93 00:05:41,895 --> 00:05:44,725 there are over 1200 miles of designated routes, 94 00:05:44,725 --> 00:05:49,485 which makes it nearly impossible to escape sort of the site and sound of 95 00:05:49,485 --> 00:05:53,325 off-road vehicles. You know, we've looked at the density of routes in that area. 96 00:05:53,465 --> 00:05:54,298 So right now, 97 00:05:55,305 --> 00:05:59,925 94% of that entire 300,000 acre area 98 00:06:00,385 --> 00:06:03,405 is within half mile of a designated route, 99 00:06:03,505 --> 00:06:08,165 and less than 0.5% of that land area is a mile or more from 100 00:06:08,165 --> 00:06:11,085 designated route. So it is a really incredibly dense network. 101 00:06:11,745 --> 00:06:14,045 That's crazy. 'cause you know, I, I mean, 102 00:06:14,085 --> 00:06:16,725 I haven't been out specifically in that area, 103 00:06:16,865 --> 00:06:19,805 but you think about Moab and you think about going into the back country, 104 00:06:20,665 --> 00:06:22,845 and it's not really back country if you, 105 00:06:22,845 --> 00:06:27,445 with you're within a mile of a road in any spot in that whole area, 106 00:06:27,585 --> 00:06:28,418 is it. 107 00:06:28,995 --> 00:06:30,605 It's really not. And you know, it's, 108 00:06:31,025 --> 00:06:35,165 it just prioritizes one user group to the expense of, 109 00:06:36,285 --> 00:06:38,225 um, not only other resource users. 110 00:06:38,225 --> 00:06:42,425 There's a lot of quiet recreational uses in that area that are impacted by 111 00:06:42,425 --> 00:06:44,785 motorized vehicles, but also, you know, 112 00:06:44,785 --> 00:06:47,185 there's pretty important wildlife habitat there. 113 00:06:47,185 --> 00:06:49,145 There's a lot of cultural sites, um, 114 00:06:49,405 --> 00:06:53,065 and those other things that are impacted by that use. 115 00:06:54,175 --> 00:06:57,745 Tell us about Labyrinth Canyon. Why, why is this area so special? 116 00:06:57,805 --> 00:07:02,345 Why is it so popular? Obviously with off roaders, but, but others as well. 117 00:07:02,415 --> 00:07:05,305 What makes this area, uh, such a draw? 118 00:07:06,005 --> 00:07:09,345 So I think, you know, one of the things is Labyrinth Canyon itself, 119 00:07:09,345 --> 00:07:14,115 which is just a really quintessential and unmatched place. 120 00:07:14,295 --> 00:07:16,875 You know, it is, um, in Utah, um, 121 00:07:18,075 --> 00:07:21,015 you have the Labyrinth Canyon section of the Green River, 122 00:07:21,465 --> 00:07:24,135 which is a flat water section, um, 123 00:07:24,135 --> 00:07:27,575 which is suitable for boaters of kind of all experience levels. 124 00:07:27,675 --> 00:07:32,375 And you're floating through these towering Red rock cliffs and incredible side 125 00:07:32,485 --> 00:07:37,255 canyons, and you have just this amazing topography all over. 126 00:07:37,355 --> 00:07:41,975 And so that's why it is such a draw is it's just like an incredibly scenic and 127 00:07:41,975 --> 00:07:43,495 beautiful area. Um, 128 00:07:43,555 --> 00:07:48,335 the other thing that's important to point out is that as part of the Dingle 129 00:07:48,555 --> 00:07:49,388 Act, 130 00:07:49,755 --> 00:07:53,655 the west side of the river is designated wilderness. 131 00:07:54,555 --> 00:07:58,015 The river corridor itself is a designated scenic river, 132 00:07:58,595 --> 00:08:02,935 and the east side of the river is not protected as wilderness, though it is, 133 00:08:02,935 --> 00:08:04,735 there's proposal to protect it as wilderness. 134 00:08:04,915 --> 00:08:09,455 And so as you're floating the river right now, you know, 135 00:08:09,455 --> 00:08:11,615 it's this incredible wilderness river experience. 136 00:08:11,715 --> 00:08:16,095 And then you get to a certain point and all of a sudden on the Grand County side 137 00:08:16,095 --> 00:08:17,295 of the river, there's, you know, 138 00:08:18,205 --> 00:08:21,255 UTVs and vehicles kind of roaring up and down the side of the river, 139 00:08:21,255 --> 00:08:23,655 which just really takes away from that experience. 140 00:08:24,675 --> 00:08:29,495 So with all of that background, let's talk about what the plan actually did. 141 00:08:29,635 --> 00:08:34,375 How many miles of dirt road did the BLM close with the plan and what was their 142 00:08:34,375 --> 00:08:35,775 reasoning for doing so? 143 00:08:36,795 --> 00:08:39,935 So the BLM actually only closed about 300 miles. 144 00:08:40,275 --> 00:08:44,375 And so there's still more than 800 miles of routes in that area. You know, 145 00:08:44,375 --> 00:08:47,495 it's not, the plan certainly isn't perfect, um, 146 00:08:47,675 --> 00:08:51,975 but it was a really important step forward. And what it did, um, 147 00:08:52,605 --> 00:08:56,845 most significantly is it closed routes in that river corridor, 148 00:08:57,665 --> 00:08:59,445 in these sensitive side canyons, 149 00:08:59,445 --> 00:09:02,365 and then pulled back some of the routes from the canyon rims. 150 00:09:02,785 --> 00:09:06,925 And they really fo you know, I think focused on protecting, um, 151 00:09:08,725 --> 00:09:12,695 high value areas. You know, like the Labyrinth Canyon riparian areas in 152 00:09:14,315 --> 00:09:17,235 desert are rare. They're really significant. 153 00:09:17,775 --> 00:09:21,675 And so it's important to make sure we preserve those spaces. 154 00:09:21,975 --> 00:09:24,755 And so that's what the agency did here. 155 00:09:25,995 --> 00:09:28,415 Really quick, I wanna sort of circle back for a second. 156 00:09:28,725 --> 00:09:32,615 Will you describe the issue with off-Road vehicles, 157 00:09:32,635 --> 00:09:37,375 why they are a threat to re like, um, wildlife desert, 158 00:09:38,015 --> 00:09:41,575 specifically the desert around Moab and the Cryptobiotic soil and things like 159 00:09:41,575 --> 00:09:42,408 that? 160 00:09:42,685 --> 00:09:45,215 Sure. So, you know, off-Road vehicles, 161 00:09:45,645 --> 00:09:48,455 they certainly provide a form of recreation, 162 00:09:48,835 --> 00:09:53,415 but they really do have a disproportionate impact on resources. 163 00:09:53,595 --> 00:09:57,375 And it's because of that disproportionate impact, because of the impact, um, 164 00:09:57,525 --> 00:09:59,495 they have on natural resources, 165 00:09:59,775 --> 00:10:04,055 cultural resources that the use of those vehicles really does need to be, um, 166 00:10:04,485 --> 00:10:08,575 carefully thought out and planned. And the impact that those have, you know, 167 00:10:09,535 --> 00:10:11,755 crypto, you mentioned cryptobiotic soils, 168 00:10:12,015 --> 00:10:16,235 that's a soil crust essentially that keeps dust down, 169 00:10:16,545 --> 00:10:20,515 that is easily disturbed by things like motorized vehicles. 170 00:10:20,615 --> 00:10:25,435 And so you then generate a lot of fugitive dust. They, 171 00:10:26,055 --> 00:10:30,755 uh, really impact riparian areas in terms of facilitating erosion. 172 00:10:31,585 --> 00:10:36,315 There's often non-native species like vegetation that is brought in 173 00:10:36,455 --> 00:10:38,875 by motorized vehicles, it's on tires, 174 00:10:39,095 --> 00:10:42,635 and that can really impact native plant species in those areas. 175 00:10:43,895 --> 00:10:46,915 And I just wanna clarify, you say cryptobiotic soil, 176 00:10:47,175 --> 00:10:50,995 I'm going to assume by the name this is then not just dirt. 177 00:10:51,445 --> 00:10:53,275 Right? It's really important. , 178 00:10:53,275 --> 00:10:57,075 it's a really important function in terms of protecting, you know, 179 00:10:57,135 --> 00:11:01,755 the vegetation and the soil itself, you know, that it keeps it down essentially. 180 00:11:03,415 --> 00:11:06,915 So, so BBL m proposes this plan, uh, 181 00:11:07,425 --> 00:11:11,275 proposing closing, uh, quite a bit of, uh, of, 182 00:11:11,295 --> 00:11:16,155 of dirt roads and uh, and motorized trails. What are the responses, 183 00:11:16,735 --> 00:11:21,675 uh, to that plan from the motorized recreation community and the non-motorized 184 00:11:21,675 --> 00:11:22,508 folks? 185 00:11:23,215 --> 00:11:25,515 So, you know, from the motorized community, 186 00:11:25,575 --> 00:11:28,635 that's been a lot of sort of the sky is falling rhetoric, you know, 187 00:11:28,635 --> 00:11:31,195 we're getting shut out of these places, you know, 188 00:11:31,195 --> 00:11:33,355 and I think it's important to point out that that's not true. 189 00:11:34,025 --> 00:11:35,515 There's not cutting off access. 190 00:11:35,525 --> 00:11:39,915 There is still 800 miles of routes in this gen in this specific area. 191 00:11:40,265 --> 00:11:42,755 When you get into the greater Moab area, 192 00:11:42,755 --> 00:11:45,995 there's more than 5,000 miles of designated routes. 193 00:11:45,995 --> 00:11:50,035 So closing these 300 really is a, a minor step forward, 194 00:11:50,335 --> 00:11:54,045 an important one, but a minor one. Um, and you know, 195 00:11:54,045 --> 00:11:56,885 there's still access to the river by motorized vehicles. 196 00:11:56,885 --> 00:11:59,205 There's still viewpoints. Um, 197 00:11:59,385 --> 00:12:03,645 and so it's just honestly inaccurate to say that there is cutting off access. 198 00:12:03,985 --> 00:12:07,445 And in terms of non-motorized users, river runners, 199 00:12:07,455 --> 00:12:12,245 other folks who mountain bike hike in that area, people are happy. You know, 200 00:12:12,245 --> 00:12:15,685 they're feeling like there is a place for them in this area. 201 00:12:15,875 --> 00:12:17,925 They want to go out there, um, 202 00:12:18,105 --> 00:12:22,125 and want to be able to experience these places without that impact. 203 00:12:22,145 --> 00:12:26,805 And we've had a lot of folks reach out and are excited to run Labyrinth again 204 00:12:26,825 --> 00:12:29,325 and go there without those sort of impacts. 205 00:12:30,525 --> 00:12:33,205 Yeah, I imagine Ed Abby would be pretty happy with this plan, 206 00:12:33,645 --> 00:12:37,645 or he would probably want more closures, but like you said, 207 00:12:37,955 --> 00:12:40,285 this is a small step forward. Um, 208 00:12:40,905 --> 00:12:43,445 so I did see that the Blue Ribbon Coalition, 209 00:12:43,495 --> 00:12:46,245 which is an off-road advocacy group, um, 210 00:12:46,395 --> 00:12:50,805 said they're planning to sue over this plan. Now, um, you're an attorney, 211 00:12:50,865 --> 00:12:53,725 so I'm curious to get your opinion. What do you, 212 00:12:53,725 --> 00:12:55,885 do you think they have a legal leg to stand on there? 213 00:12:57,045 --> 00:12:57,925 I don't, you know, 214 00:12:58,085 --> 00:13:02,325 I think that this is true of Forest Service BLM when they, 215 00:13:02,435 --> 00:13:06,445 when those agencies designate routes for motorized vehicles, 216 00:13:06,445 --> 00:13:11,365 they have a legal obligation to minimize damage to watersheds, 217 00:13:11,365 --> 00:13:16,205 to soils, to wildlife, to wildlife habitat, um, to cultural sites. 218 00:13:16,745 --> 00:13:18,645 And they have to show that they've done that, 219 00:13:18,875 --> 00:13:23,165 that when they're designating these route next they're minimizing damage. Um, 220 00:13:23,475 --> 00:13:27,165 they don't have an obligation to designate every route everywhere that people 221 00:13:27,735 --> 00:13:30,485 would like to travel on at some point. Um, 222 00:13:30,545 --> 00:13:33,365 and so I think the agency has done that here. 223 00:13:33,365 --> 00:13:37,325 They've shown that they're minimizing damage to important resources. They're, 224 00:13:37,585 --> 00:13:40,925 um, they've done the environmental analysis to support the decision, 225 00:13:41,025 --> 00:13:43,245 and I think it will hold up. 226 00:13:44,865 --> 00:13:46,445 Uh, Sue, as I understand, 227 00:13:46,545 --> 00:13:51,205 was involved in what led to the creation of this plan. 228 00:13:51,765 --> 00:13:52,598 I mean, how, 229 00:13:52,715 --> 00:13:57,445 what is the process that led us here to begin with and how does that fit into 230 00:13:57,445 --> 00:14:00,405 this ongoing threat of, of litigation? Does, 231 00:14:00,505 --> 00:14:04,805 is there a chance you think that this finally gets settled and implemented soon? 232 00:14:06,105 --> 00:14:11,085 So as with I think most public lands issues in Utah, 233 00:14:11,085 --> 00:14:15,925 it's a long history , um, , but I can go through it, uh, 234 00:14:15,925 --> 00:14:20,805 relatively quickly. In 2008 at the end of the Bush administration, 235 00:14:21,065 --> 00:14:25,005 the BLM pushed out a number of what's called resource management plans, 236 00:14:25,005 --> 00:14:28,125 which are broader agency documents, um, 237 00:14:28,125 --> 00:14:33,085 in different field offices that give like management direction on different, um, 238 00:14:33,365 --> 00:14:37,365 programs, oil, gas, travel, um, those sorts of things. 239 00:14:38,725 --> 00:14:39,558 They, 240 00:14:39,625 --> 00:14:44,215 those plans across the six that were pushed out at that time 241 00:14:45,185 --> 00:14:49,855 designated more than 30,000 miles of off-road vehicle routes. Um, 242 00:14:50,955 --> 00:14:54,845 it's an incredible dense map when you look at it. 243 00:14:54,865 --> 00:14:56,805 And so the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance, 244 00:14:56,895 --> 00:15:00,445 along with a number of other conservation organizations, um, 245 00:15:01,395 --> 00:15:06,365 sued over those plans. In 2008. There's one plan that was kind of a test plan, 246 00:15:06,705 --> 00:15:11,565 um, that went to trial first. Um, we won on that, 247 00:15:11,615 --> 00:15:16,485 where the ag was found that the agency didn't minimize impacts, uh, 248 00:15:16,555 --> 00:15:19,965 mini minimize damage to resources, um, 249 00:15:20,145 --> 00:15:23,885 didn't adequately account for cultural resources. Um, 250 00:15:23,985 --> 00:15:25,205 and so eventually 251 00:15:26,895 --> 00:15:31,155 we settled that litigation in 2017. And part, as part of that settlement, 252 00:15:31,495 --> 00:15:36,035 the agency has to do 11 new travel management plans for, 253 00:15:36,735 --> 00:15:41,515 um, 11 areas. So this is actually the third of those 11. 254 00:15:41,575 --> 00:15:43,915 So there are eight more coming down. 255 00:15:46,435 --> 00:15:49,675 I, I wanna go back to Blue Ribbon Coalition for a moment. 256 00:15:49,935 --> 00:15:53,155 As a party that appears to be ready to litigate here, 257 00:15:53,995 --> 00:15:58,835 I I seem to be noticing them turning up in other things that 258 00:15:58,835 --> 00:16:03,155 seem to be unrelated at first glance to, to motorized recreation. 259 00:16:03,155 --> 00:16:07,675 They turned up at this stop 30 by 30 summit, uh, that, uh, 260 00:16:07,705 --> 00:16:11,875 just conservation opponents held in Texas last month. 261 00:16:12,735 --> 00:16:14,715 In your view, as someone who's encountered this group, 262 00:16:15,425 --> 00:16:16,915 have they changed over the years? 263 00:16:17,135 --> 00:16:19,635 Are they actually advocating for off-Road users, 264 00:16:19,695 --> 00:16:23,195 or are they just an an anti conservation group at this point? 265 00:16:24,135 --> 00:16:24,915 You know, 266 00:16:24,915 --> 00:16:28,715 I am not as familiar with the long history of Blue Ribbon as some other folks, 267 00:16:28,855 --> 00:16:30,355 but it, it does seem, you know, 268 00:16:30,355 --> 00:16:34,955 they've also gotten involved in like Lake Powell in terms of filling Lake 269 00:16:34,955 --> 00:16:37,795 Powell. Um, seems like there's perhaps some, 270 00:16:38,355 --> 00:16:43,235 a wider ranging mission than maybe they once started off as. 271 00:16:43,655 --> 00:16:46,675 But I think if you look at the rhetoric mm-hmm, , um, 272 00:16:46,675 --> 00:16:49,635 that they're putting out there for this plan for other plans, 273 00:16:49,815 --> 00:16:53,195 it is more of like an anticon conservation agenda. 274 00:16:54,135 --> 00:16:58,075 So let's talk about this plan in comparison to the other two that you said have 275 00:16:58,075 --> 00:16:59,275 been finalized. Um, 276 00:16:59,995 --> 00:17:04,355 I either wasn't paying close attention or wasn't here when those plans came 277 00:17:04,355 --> 00:17:06,835 down. Um, how does this one compare to them? 278 00:17:07,975 --> 00:17:12,405 So this one is really the first one where I think the agency took, uh, 279 00:17:12,625 --> 00:17:16,965 an important step forward and did close routes, um, 280 00:17:17,065 --> 00:17:21,245 and close routes in a way to protect resources. 281 00:17:21,905 --> 00:17:26,045 Um, the Canyon, the Canyon Rims plan, 282 00:17:26,045 --> 00:17:30,765 which is an area just south of Moab, it made some pretty minor changes. 283 00:17:31,345 --> 00:17:36,085 Um, there was the Centerfield Desert Plan, which came out actually, 284 00:17:36,385 --> 00:17:39,565 um, the end of the Trump administration. 285 00:17:40,315 --> 00:17:42,965 That one was sort of predictably bad. 286 00:17:42,985 --> 00:17:47,345 It blanketed the area more than doubled the mileage of off-road vehicle routes 287 00:17:47,345 --> 00:17:50,175 in that area. ua, um, 288 00:17:51,445 --> 00:17:53,935 sued over that plan and then eventually settled. 289 00:17:54,075 --> 00:17:58,735 And so the BLM kind of did a bit of a new process there and 290 00:17:58,735 --> 00:18:03,015 eventually closed about 120 miles of routes that they had previously designated. 291 00:18:03,315 --> 00:18:03,735 And truly, 292 00:18:03,735 --> 00:18:08,735 these were routes that like did not exist on the ground served absolutely 293 00:18:08,735 --> 00:18:12,855 no purpose or need. And so what we're seeing here in Labyrinth, 294 00:18:12,855 --> 00:18:16,695 which is a little different is the agency being a little bit more thoughtful. 295 00:18:17,115 --> 00:18:17,495 You know, 296 00:18:17,495 --> 00:18:21,415 I think what we often see in these travel plans and these kind of decisions is 297 00:18:21,415 --> 00:18:24,455 where the agency just kind of uses an inherited network of routes and doesn't 298 00:18:24,455 --> 00:18:28,365 think about like, what are these for? How are we, 299 00:18:28,505 --> 00:18:32,325 how can we provide access? Can we provide recreation opportunities, 300 00:18:32,555 --> 00:18:36,885 provide people the ability to go to scenic viewpoints while also protecting the 301 00:18:36,885 --> 00:18:39,285 reason that folks wanna go here in the first place, you know, 302 00:18:39,285 --> 00:18:43,405 which is to visit Utah's incredible back country. Um, 303 00:18:43,785 --> 00:18:48,445 and so I think for the first time we're seeing some forward thinking 304 00:18:49,305 --> 00:18:51,365 out of the BLM when it comes to travel planning. 305 00:18:52,165 --> 00:18:55,365 Hmm. So I have a question that gets to that, um, 306 00:18:55,725 --> 00:18:57,365 historic network of roads you just mentioned. 307 00:18:57,445 --> 00:18:59,045 I lived in San Juan County for a while, 308 00:18:59,105 --> 00:19:03,005 and folks down there were just kind of a obsessed with these things called RS 309 00:19:03,065 --> 00:19:07,525 2 4 7, 7 Roads , um, which, you know, really rolls off the tongue, 310 00:19:07,945 --> 00:19:11,245 but like they would like the, the county on it. 311 00:19:11,345 --> 00:19:15,005 The main page of the county website in San Juan County was like this 312 00:19:15,925 --> 00:19:16,805 PSA that was like, 313 00:19:16,865 --> 00:19:21,725 go out and like document your grandfather's road that he used to go water his 314 00:19:22,155 --> 00:19:23,165 cows. Um, 315 00:19:23,555 --> 00:19:27,765 what are these RS 2, 4, 7, 7 roads and do they like play into these management 316 00:19:27,765 --> 00:19:29,245 plans? Like what's the nexus there? 317 00:19:30,675 --> 00:19:32,015 So they're actually, um, 318 00:19:33,035 --> 00:19:36,695 is not a nexus as much here because, um, 319 00:19:37,915 --> 00:19:41,735 the travel plans specifically say that these plans, 320 00:19:41,745 --> 00:19:46,375 these route designations have no kind of bearing on those RS 321 00:19:46,435 --> 00:19:50,095 2, 4, 7, 7 claims. The RS 2, 4, 7, 7 claims, 322 00:19:50,095 --> 00:19:54,655 which it's not an area of expertise for me, but is, you know, 323 00:19:54,655 --> 00:19:59,455 they stem from the mining law of 1870 and give rights of way over public 324 00:19:59,505 --> 00:20:01,855 lands for certain things and have been, 325 00:20:01,855 --> 00:20:06,615 especially in Utah litigated for decades. And it's still ongoing. Uh, 326 00:20:06,615 --> 00:20:10,735 what you see here is doesn't really bear on that in the sense that like they, 327 00:20:10,735 --> 00:20:12,135 there's no legal determination, 328 00:20:12,795 --> 00:20:17,615 but it is the same idea of like every road that has ever existed is very 329 00:20:17,935 --> 00:20:19,975 important and we need to designate it. 330 00:20:20,255 --> 00:20:25,215 I think you'll see out of some counties you did not see that here, grand County, 331 00:20:25,585 --> 00:20:29,535 which is the county within which this travel management area lies, 332 00:20:29,955 --> 00:20:32,295 was supportive of the BMS plan here. 333 00:20:34,115 --> 00:20:38,295 And I guess that brings up the question of what's next going forward, um, 334 00:20:38,405 --> 00:20:41,335 with Grand County on board and supporting, 335 00:20:41,915 --> 00:20:46,655 are there ways to do this going forward since we have eight more 336 00:20:46,705 --> 00:20:50,885 plans to go that hopefully minimize the chances for 337 00:20:51,255 --> 00:20:55,165 litigation and smooths the path to, uh, to, 338 00:20:55,165 --> 00:20:59,005 if not an all out consensus, at least a, a solution that everyone can, 339 00:20:59,145 --> 00:20:59,978 can live with. 340 00:21:00,425 --> 00:21:02,645 You know, just because Utah is the way it is, 341 00:21:02,885 --> 00:21:07,725 I don't know that there's way to avoid litigation wholesale going 342 00:21:07,725 --> 00:21:11,805 forward, um, but there are some really important plans coming up. 343 00:21:12,545 --> 00:21:13,075 Um, 344 00:21:13,075 --> 00:21:17,725 there's one coming up for the San Rafael swell area of Utah, 345 00:21:18,345 --> 00:21:21,205 um, which I think will be, you know, 346 00:21:21,205 --> 00:21:26,125 another important area where the agency should make some decisions to 347 00:21:26,125 --> 00:21:30,365 protect areas to pull back some of the motorized, uh, 348 00:21:30,705 --> 00:21:35,085 use in that area and just make sure it's more carefully planned and managed. 349 00:21:35,945 --> 00:21:40,925 And then there's some plans outside of Kanab as well as in the vernal 350 00:21:41,235 --> 00:21:44,245 area that will be coming over the next few years. 351 00:21:44,985 --> 00:21:49,485 So we're hopeful that this plan was an indicator that the agency is kind of 352 00:21:50,125 --> 00:21:53,405 starting to do things right. We hope they will continue to do things right. 353 00:21:53,465 --> 00:21:57,325 You know, this plan wasn't perfect. We would've liked to see, you know, 354 00:21:57,395 --> 00:22:00,845 less than 800 miles and some other, but it's, 355 00:22:00,845 --> 00:22:03,245 it's progress and I think that's really important. 356 00:22:04,875 --> 00:22:07,965 Okay. Laura, before we let you go, I have to ask a dumb question, 357 00:22:08,415 --> 00:22:11,165 which is they close these routes on paper, 358 00:22:11,305 --> 00:22:13,285 but what does that actually mean on the ground? 359 00:22:13,385 --> 00:22:16,885 Do they just go out there and put logs across the road? 360 00:22:18,225 --> 00:22:22,245 So I think it'll mean different things for different routes. Um, 361 00:22:22,795 --> 00:22:26,045 some of these routes as we saw in the San Rafael Desert are really like 362 00:22:26,725 --> 00:22:30,805 reclaiming non-existent on the ground, not ones that folks drive on. 363 00:22:30,825 --> 00:22:35,805 So those are pretty easy. Some of the bigger routes I would imagine will be, 364 00:22:36,185 --> 00:22:38,685 you know, signs hopefully in the middle of the route, 365 00:22:38,745 --> 00:22:42,565 not to the side of the route that show that they're closed and doing that sort 366 00:22:42,565 --> 00:22:45,085 of masking so that with logs and other things. 367 00:22:45,105 --> 00:22:47,525 So it doesn't look like a route is there. 368 00:22:47,905 --> 00:22:51,605 And so it'll eventually look like that. It takes some time. 369 00:22:52,595 --> 00:22:54,045 Cool. All right. Well, 370 00:22:54,045 --> 00:22:56,725 Laura Peterson with the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance. 371 00:22:56,725 --> 00:23:01,525 Thank you so much for joining us. This was really elucidating and um, 372 00:23:01,525 --> 00:23:03,685 like really an exciting conservation win. 373 00:23:04,395 --> 00:23:07,925 Yeah, it was, it was exciting for us here in Utah for sure. 374 00:23:07,925 --> 00:23:09,245 And thank you so much for having me. 375 00:23:14,665 --> 00:23:17,765 Hey, a quick postscript here since we've recorded that interview. 376 00:23:18,225 --> 00:23:22,285 An Anticon conservation group that claims to represent off roaders as well as 377 00:23:22,285 --> 00:23:26,445 the state of Utah have already filed administrative appeals over the travel plan 378 00:23:27,395 --> 00:23:32,365 Utah Governor Spencer Cox accused the BLM of blatant federal overreach this 379 00:23:32,365 --> 00:23:36,645 Tuesday saying the agency ignored off-Road users in the creation of the plan 380 00:23:36,875 --> 00:23:41,845 that just as a reminder leaves hundreds of miles open to off-road users. Uh, 381 00:23:41,955 --> 00:23:45,445 Utah Senator Mitt Romney also weighed in along those same lines, 382 00:23:45,795 --> 00:23:47,285 according to the state's appeal, 383 00:23:47,465 --> 00:23:51,645 the plan violates the RS 2, 4 7, 7 statute. Well, 384 00:23:51,645 --> 00:23:55,685 one of our favorites that gives counties and states a right of way across 385 00:23:55,685 --> 00:23:59,845 federal lands for essentially cow paths that they claim are roads. 386 00:24:00,425 --> 00:24:03,045 We don't have time to get into all of that here. 387 00:24:03,715 --> 00:24:06,965 Utah loves its RS 2, 4 7 7 claims. 388 00:24:07,145 --> 00:24:10,885 It is a whole thing that we should probably unpack in another episode. 389 00:24:11,465 --> 00:24:12,145 And separately, 390 00:24:12,145 --> 00:24:15,845 the Blue Ribbon Coalition claims the plan violates the National Environmental 391 00:24:15,905 --> 00:24:18,485 Policy Act, or nepa. NEPA of course, 392 00:24:18,485 --> 00:24:23,045 requires federal agencies to assess the environmental effects and seek public 393 00:24:23,045 --> 00:24:27,845 comment before making major land management decisions. There was, of course, 394 00:24:28,045 --> 00:24:32,085 a whole public comment period involved in this travel management plan. Now, 395 00:24:32,265 --> 00:24:37,245 the BRC also argues the plan violates the Dingle Act claiming under that 396 00:24:37,345 --> 00:24:41,965 ACT designation of certain wilderness areas like Labyrinth Canyon 397 00:24:42,215 --> 00:24:45,525 would not lead to restrictions seeping into the surrounding areas. 398 00:24:46,425 --> 00:24:48,605 But that is not what the Dingle Act says. 399 00:24:49,025 --> 00:24:53,005 The Dingle Act says that Congress didn't intend for new wilderness designations 400 00:24:53,065 --> 00:24:56,125 to create buffer zones around the new wilderness. 401 00:24:56,385 --> 00:25:00,245 It doesn't say that BLM can't continue to make management plans for those 402 00:25:00,485 --> 00:25:02,725 surrounding areas, which is what's happening here. 403 00:25:03,385 --> 00:25:08,325 And BLM is not making buffer zones. I am looking at this final map right now. 404 00:25:08,325 --> 00:25:09,405 There are still, of course, 405 00:25:09,765 --> 00:25:13,205 hundreds of miles of trails opened off-roading around Labyrinth Canyon. 406 00:25:13,595 --> 00:25:18,245 Many of those trails going literally right up against the edge of the wilderness 407 00:25:18,245 --> 00:25:22,285 areas. So good luck with that buffer zone argument in court. Uh, 408 00:25:22,345 --> 00:25:26,085 we will drop that map into the show notes so you can take a look for yourself. 409 00:25:27,075 --> 00:25:31,085 Alright, here's some good news to close out the episode. The plan that Arizona, 410 00:25:31,085 --> 00:25:31,705 California, 411 00:25:31,705 --> 00:25:36,405 and Nevada came up with to cut Colorado River water use should be enough to keep 412 00:25:36,435 --> 00:25:39,525 Lake Mead and Powell producing hydropower for a few years. 413 00:25:39,905 --> 00:25:41,685 That's according to the Interior Department, 414 00:25:41,685 --> 00:25:45,645 which said the federal government won't impose new cuts on the states for now. 415 00:25:45,875 --> 00:25:46,635 However, 416 00:25:46,635 --> 00:25:50,725 this plan is just a stopgap measure until the government can create a new 417 00:25:50,725 --> 00:25:52,045 long-term plan for the river. 418 00:25:52,515 --> 00:25:57,485 That plan is due by 2027 and we could see a draft environmental review of it by 419 00:25:57,485 --> 00:25:58,445 the end of next year. 420 00:26:08,305 --> 00:26:10,965 And that will do it for this episode of the landscape. 421 00:26:11,065 --> 00:26:13,325 If you enjoy what you heard here, 422 00:26:13,385 --> 00:26:17,805 please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you are listening, 423 00:26:18,225 --> 00:26:20,165 and feel free to send us feedback. 424 00:26:20,185 --> 00:26:25,125 We love it podcast@westernpriorities.org. And if you get a chance, 425 00:26:25,265 --> 00:26:30,005 go see what CWP is doing on TikTok these days. Kate's posting videos. 426 00:26:30,565 --> 00:26:33,125 Sterling is posting videos. It's uh, it's really good stuff. 427 00:26:33,465 --> 00:26:36,725 It is. It's harder than it looks. Two folks, I'll let you know that . 428 00:26:37,265 --> 00:26:40,445 All right, well thank you to Laura Peterson for coming on the show today. 429 00:26:40,465 --> 00:26:42,765 And as always, thank you for listening to. 430 00:26:42,765 --> 00:26:43,460 The landscape.