WEBVTT 00:00:10.100 --> 00:00:15.940 you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast each week we take a single 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:22.020 episode of a science fiction tv series movie or audio and overanalyze it to within an inch 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:24.280 of its life welcome to the discussion 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.100 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. 00:00:33.600 --> 00:00:33.820 I'm Eugene. 00:00:34.500 --> 00:00:35.160 And I'm Simon. 00:00:35.800 --> 00:00:43.820 And tonight we are looking at yet another in the sort of animated recreation series of Doctor Who. 00:00:44.420 --> 00:00:47.340 We'll be looking at The Crusade. 00:00:47.860 --> 00:00:48.760 First Doctor adventure. 00:00:50.220 --> 00:00:52.540 Couple comments before we go on. 00:00:52.940 --> 00:00:55.220 The Crusade has not gotten its own standalone release. 00:00:55.360 --> 00:01:01.000 The Crusade has been bundled in with the Series 2 Blu-ray box set, 00:01:01.400 --> 00:01:06.560 which will ultimately be released in about six months to 12 years in the United States 00:01:06.720 --> 00:01:09.380 under the William Hartnell Series 2 box set. 00:01:09.920 --> 00:01:11.660 It is a Telesnap recreation. 00:01:12.980 --> 00:01:13.860 We'll talk about that. 00:01:14.460 --> 00:01:20.560 But it's been released officially, and so we're going to cover it. 00:01:21.320 --> 00:01:37.080 And I'll also add, before I go into my synopsis, you'll often hear that the world you create in your mind's eye when listening to audio-only adventures is in every way superior to what can be created on TV and in the movies. 00:01:37.760 --> 00:01:40.720 I find that argument wanting, but that's it. 00:01:41.800 --> 00:01:48.300 That's what we've mostly got here in two episodes, episodes two and four, which are missing from this four-part story. 00:01:49.020 --> 00:01:51.220 And they were recreated with telesnaps. 00:01:51.800 --> 00:01:58.960 After I watched them, I found out that they have recorded a separate narration track with William Russell, who plays Sir Ian. 00:01:59.899 --> 00:02:03.260 And he fills in some of the details. 00:02:04.220 --> 00:02:08.280 Unfortunately, I'd already written the synopsis based on how I filled in the details. 00:02:08.940 --> 00:02:10.920 And so I'm sticking to it. 00:02:11.520 --> 00:02:13.000 Enjoy My Mind's Eye. 00:02:14.700 --> 00:02:15.740 Ceres synopsis. 00:02:16.420 --> 00:02:18.560 The TARDIS arrives near Jaffa in the 12th century. 00:02:19.160 --> 00:02:23.740 Nearby is King Richard the Lionheart and his party of men all named William. 00:02:24.260 --> 00:02:28.620 They all come under attack by the Saracens under the command of Emir el-Aqir. 00:02:29.040 --> 00:02:31.440 Barbara is captured and Sir William de Pleu, 00:02:31.860 --> 00:02:34.520 which I'm going to pronounce in the way Americans pronounce French names, 00:02:35.100 --> 00:02:39.300 is captured, pretending to be the king as a diversion to allow the real king to escape. 00:02:39.860 --> 00:02:44.080 The doctor, Vicky, and Ian recover the wounded Sir William de Tombou, 00:02:44.320 --> 00:02:52.900 giving him medical attention and eventually returning him and the king's belt, which was in Sir William's possession, back to the king in Jaffa. 00:02:53.340 --> 00:02:57.160 Before meeting the king, they must steal some clothes, which the doctor and Vicky accomplish. 00:02:57.860 --> 00:03:00.920 These clothes, however, are no doubt already stolen from the crusaders. 00:03:01.440 --> 00:03:03.060 Hopefully that won't cause any problems. 00:03:03.980 --> 00:03:06.600 In El Akir's camp, Sir William meets Barbara. 00:03:07.100 --> 00:03:13.340 After proper introductions, Sir William maintains his ruse and adds cover for Barbara by claiming she is his sister, Joanna. 00:03:13.760 --> 00:03:16.360 and they claim the treatment to which they are entitled as royalty. 00:03:16.970 --> 00:03:23.460 El-Aqir makes to take them to Ramla, where Saladin, the sultan, has his camp to gain his favor. 00:03:24.100 --> 00:03:28.100 Saladin isn't deceived and knows immediately this is not King Richard or Princess Joanna, 00:03:28.460 --> 00:03:30.200 and El-Aqir looks the fool. 00:03:30.750 --> 00:03:36.640 Sir William is sent back to El-Aqirs, but as a knight, he will be well treated in his captivity. 00:03:37.220 --> 00:03:40.580 Barbara will remain to entertain Saladin with tales of her travels. 00:03:41.220 --> 00:03:46.420 In King Richard's court, he is beholden to the doctor and fam, but not inclined to help Barbara. 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:51.860 Sir William and the doctor make the king see the humor of Sir William's ruse. 00:03:52.410 --> 00:03:57.320 The doctor is a wily old bird and soon has the king thinking of a swap and perhaps something more. 00:03:57.780 --> 00:04:01.780 The king's sister, Joanna, meets the doctor, Vicky, and Ian, and she is suspicious of them, 00:04:02.180 --> 00:04:05.420 most especially of Vicky, who is pretending to be Victor, a boy. 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:16.420 El-Aqir wants to do terrible things to Barbara, so he arranges for her to be kidnapped from Saladin's encampment and taken to his place in Lydda to suffer her fate. 00:04:16.840 --> 00:04:24.580 The king has decided to offer his sister in marriage to Saladin's brother, Safadin, to make a peace deal, and he sends Ian to convey the message. 00:04:25.040 --> 00:04:28.040 But first, he knights him, Sir Ian of Jaffa. 00:04:28.280 --> 00:04:32.240 The stolen clothes have come back to haunt the doctor, as the Chamberlain recognizes them. 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:36.560 But a 12th century human brain is no match for a Time Lord brain, 00:04:36.930 --> 00:04:40.100 and the doctor soon has this smoothed over to his satisfaction. 00:04:40.660 --> 00:04:41.700 It's not everyone else's. 00:04:42.180 --> 00:04:44.900 Barbara arrives at Lydda, and then some noises happen. 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:47.740 And there are pictures of guards apparently molesting a chicken, 00:04:47.940 --> 00:04:50.880 and Barbara wandering the streets, plus dramatic music. 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:52.780 So I think she escaped. 00:04:53.460 --> 00:04:56.840 Sir Ian arrives at Saladin's camp and presents the king's proposal. 00:04:57.100 --> 00:05:03.600 They aren't going to let Sir William go, and he learns of Barbara's kidnapping, so Southerdin allows him to go after her. 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:12.620 Yes, yes, Barbara did escape, and as she is about to be recaptured, Harun-ed-Din rescues her and gives her shelter in his home. 00:05:13.180 --> 00:05:20.200 Joanna discovers that Victor is a girl and, while first being upset, comes to accept that the doctor only perpetrated the deception for the girl's protection. 00:05:20.780 --> 00:05:22.040 She takes Vicky into her protection. 00:05:22.660 --> 00:05:30.020 In return, she suspects that her brother is up to something involving herself and asks the doctor to tell her if he learns anything. 00:05:30.520 --> 00:05:31.320 He agrees. 00:05:31.820 --> 00:05:35.120 Back in Lidda, Harun tells Barbara his tale. 00:05:35.620 --> 00:05:40.560 His eldest daughter was taken by El Akir for his Harim, and he murdered his son and wife. 00:05:41.060 --> 00:05:43.860 For this, Harun lives only to kill El Akir. 00:05:44.320 --> 00:05:49.480 He has not told his other daughter, Safiya, about the fate of their family, and she believes they have gone missing. 00:05:50.100 --> 00:05:56.120 Harun goes out, but is captured, or maybe beaten, and left in the streets by the guards searching for Barbara. 00:05:56.740 --> 00:06:02.720 This ultimately leads them to search Harun's house, and Barbara surrendering to them to protect Sophia. 00:06:03.320 --> 00:06:11.260 Saladin has received Richard's peace offer and agrees to it, but still makes ready his armies, just in case it falls through or is a deception. 00:06:11.880 --> 00:06:16.780 Sir Ian, sleeping in the desert, has been taken prisoner by Ibrahim and his mostly missing brother. 00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:22.220 In court, the doctor is not making friends with the Earl of Leicester, who wants war, not peace. 00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:26.700 When asked directly by Joanna what the king has planned for her, the doctor demurs. 00:06:27.260 --> 00:06:37.360 So Leicester tells her, and she is furious at both the doctor and the king, and she flatly refuses, citing that the pope is ultimately in charge, not the king, and he wouldn't allow it. 00:06:37.660 --> 00:06:41.000 The king thinks the doctor spilled the beans to Joanna and kicks him out. 00:06:41.500 --> 00:06:46.880 Now trapped in El Akir's palace, Barbara is going to be treated very poorly indeed by El Akir. 00:06:47.420 --> 00:06:50.140 But she escapes again, this time into the palace. 00:06:50.860 --> 00:06:53.060 Sir Ian is tied up and staked to the ground. 00:06:53.400 --> 00:06:56.020 His captor, Abraham, wants him to hand over his money. 00:06:56.370 --> 00:07:00.940 But when Sir Ian refuses, he covers parts of him in honey and leads ants to him. 00:07:01.440 --> 00:07:05.020 Abraham can wait until Sir Ian tells him what he wants to know. 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:11.120 Lester is questioning Vicky, and the doctor is less than complimentary to Lester and his desire to fight. 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:13.780 The king overhears and puts an end to the questioning. 00:07:14.210 --> 00:07:16.780 He also tells the doctor that he knows he didn't betray his plan, 00:07:17.020 --> 00:07:18.960 but that it was expedient to pretend that he did. 00:07:19.760 --> 00:07:21.820 Lester is a good fighter, and he's going to need him. 00:07:22.300 --> 00:07:25.600 Having made an enemy of Lester, the king sends the doctor and Vicky to Acre. 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:28.120 The doctor readily agrees, and they leave immediately, 00:07:28.490 --> 00:07:30.620 although he's actually planning to return to the TARDIS. 00:07:31.080 --> 00:07:34.000 Barbara has found sanctuary in El-Aqir's Harim. 00:07:34.500 --> 00:07:38.360 She meets Harun's eldest daughter, who tells her that they all, apparently, 00:07:38.880 --> 00:07:40.660 hate El-Aqir and agree to hide her. 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.300 All that is safe for one who betrays Barbara for a ruby ring. 00:07:44.810 --> 00:07:50.360 In the desert, the ants ever closer, Sir Ian cracks under pressure and agrees to turn over his gold. 00:07:50.940 --> 00:07:54.380 He convinces Ibrahim that it is in his boots, but when they are removed, 00:07:54.730 --> 00:07:59.220 Sir Ian's foot odor overpowers Ibrahim and rots the ropes binding Sir Ian's wrist. 00:07:59.620 --> 00:08:02.760 He subdues Ibrahim and forces him to take him to Lydda. 00:08:03.260 --> 00:08:07.840 In Jaffa, Lester learns of the doctor's departure and sends his men to follow him. 00:08:08.260 --> 00:08:13.080 Unfortunately, the TARDIS lies in the direction of Saladin's camp, not in the direction of Acre. 00:08:13.620 --> 00:08:16.640 This gives Lester all the proof he needs that the Doctor is a spy. 00:08:17.780 --> 00:08:21.360 El-Akir finds Barbara, and this time, he's really cross. 00:08:21.860 --> 00:08:23.780 But simultaneously, two things happen. 00:08:24.320 --> 00:08:29.980 Harun, who was just left in the streets, bursts in and, I don't know, probably kills El-Akir. 00:08:30.380 --> 00:08:34.219 Then Sir Ian shows up to non-lethally thump a few heads. 00:08:34.820 --> 00:08:36.880 They are both safe and head back to the TARDIS. 00:08:37.380 --> 00:08:45.140 The Doctor and Vicky are aware that Lester's men are trying to entrap them, so the Doctor comes up with a picture-perfect plan for a Telestap reconstruction. 00:08:45.700 --> 00:08:48.240 They must make absolutely no sound whatsoever. 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:55.300 This doesn't work, and the Doctor is captured and about to be killed when Sir Ian arrives and claims the right to kill the Doctor for himself. 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:59.360 They get in the TARDIS and leave to the bewilderment of Lester and his men. 00:08:59.960 --> 00:09:00.360 The end. 00:09:00.860 --> 00:09:03.520 I'll just ignore the part from the space museum that follows there. 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:08.800 All right. I think I pretty much had it spot on. 00:09:08.800 --> 00:09:17.700 I'm not 100 percent sure about the whole thing about Ian's foot odor, but it was really the only way I could figure out how removing his boots led to him escaping. 00:09:18.220 --> 00:09:26.100 But yeah. So and I didn't actually get a chance to listen to the audio alternative version on that particular episode. 00:09:27.230 --> 00:09:33.500 So so there's enough in the dialogue. Get that. What dialogue? 00:09:37.140 --> 00:09:43.360 well i assume so i mean i had the narration on for that but the fact that he cuts oh no that's 00:09:43.400 --> 00:09:49.860 what you don't see yeah he cuts through the bonds tying his leg in order to take well i figured he 00:09:49.980 --> 00:09:54.380 had to do that to take the boots off so he has got two boots left but his arms are tied to the ground 00:09:54.820 --> 00:10:00.019 so how does he get his arms out of the ground that he he roll he rolls over back and pulls 00:10:00.040 --> 00:10:06.400 pulls his arms free because he got leverage i guess i'd have to go i'd have to go back and 00:10:06.640 --> 00:10:12.960 see if the see if the audio duration explained it any more clearly but it seemed to make sense 00:10:13.060 --> 00:10:18.640 to me at the time and i didn't realize that it was going to be the the first aspects of the 00:10:18.900 --> 00:10:22.919 episode that we were going to start discussing so i didn't memorize it carefully enough 00:10:23.920 --> 00:10:33.220 well there's always the chicken molesting scene with the guards but uh yeah uh you know what 00:10:33.660 --> 00:10:41.040 what are your thoughts the ian's foot sorry sir ian's foot odor aside what uh well i don't know 00:10:41.050 --> 00:10:47.319 we are we are we talking first about the because you've sort of alluded to it about the reconstruction 00:10:47.340 --> 00:10:53.680 itself or about the story that is reconstructed? I guess we should talk about the story first. 00:10:53.780 --> 00:10:59.920 That's what we usually do. Okay. I mean, so my thoughts on the story, and obviously two parts 00:10:59.920 --> 00:11:08.220 of it do exist in full, but actually I have to explain a little bit of background in terms of 00:11:08.680 --> 00:11:16.119 Doctor Who and the Crusaders, which is that this is one of the first Doctor Who stories that I 00:11:16.140 --> 00:11:23.300 encountered I watched a little bit of Doctor Who when it was on TV and I was pretty young and Peter 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:29.760 Davison was the doctor and I can't quite pinpoint exactly which stories I saw but I stopped watching 00:11:29.770 --> 00:11:37.960 it because it was too scary and around about the early 90s well exactly around about the early 90s 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:42.679 there were some there were some repeats and I saw those and either just before or just after I forget 00:11:42.700 --> 00:11:52.000 which I acquired some or I was staying with a friend and they had novelizations of Doctor Who 00:11:52.620 --> 00:11:59.400 and they said the old Target novelizations and I read a whole bunch of those and Doctor Who and 00:11:59.400 --> 00:12:05.600 the Crusaders was one of those and kind of stuck in my memory particularly I thought it was a really 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:10.839 good story but actually probably any of the those stories that I read the novelizations of 00:12:11.280 --> 00:12:17.620 would have would have made a mark on me just because you know it's the first ones you come 00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:23.380 across do so so because of that it being one of the early stories that I encountered and therefore 00:12:24.280 --> 00:12:30.860 perhaps made an even more favorable impression because of that I may be biased but I love this 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:37.459 story I think it's I mean it one of the things is I've also said this before I just really like 00:12:37.940 --> 00:12:44.900 pure historicals in Doctor Who and this is kind of I mean despite there being a number of elements 00:12:45.050 --> 00:12:51.080 within it that are very much of its time and I'm sure we'll come back to those it very much kind of 00:12:51.540 --> 00:13:00.640 wholeheartedly throws itself into the the kind of historical narratives around the crusade and 00:13:00.860 --> 00:13:09.300 the you know Richard and Joanna and where was Beringeria could they not afford Beringeria she 00:13:09.400 --> 00:13:15.380 was there should have been there I mean I don't know I have to I have to say I don't I it's not 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:21.700 a kind of historical period I know a great deal about so there may be inaccuracies that don't 00:13:21.730 --> 00:13:27.639 bother me because I'm just I'm just I'm just kind of going on I think what it's what it's kind of 00:13:27.660 --> 00:13:34.300 riffing on are these you know the kind of adventures that we see our characters getting 00:13:34.310 --> 00:13:42.060 up to like in getting knighted or staked out in the desert and you know threatened with hands 00:13:42.680 --> 00:13:50.780 and it's very boy's own crusade exactly exactly and again the time i came across it it was perfect 00:13:50.860 --> 00:13:58.680 for that but it it it is just a kind of very well structured story the characters are memorable 00:13:59.420 --> 00:14:07.320 the kind of escapades that they get up to have their own kind of drama and momentum and so even 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:14.080 though the historical context that we get into it feels like you know we've missed the beginning and 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:19.199 we don't stick around for the end it's enough that there are good characters there and that our 00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:24.860 characters themselves have have a story that does have a proper beginning middle and end and is 00:14:24.920 --> 00:14:32.680 actually quite satisfying well since since you gave your your backstory on coming to this i will 00:14:32.680 --> 00:14:38.500 add that i certainly read the crusaders in novel form back in the early 80s long before i ever saw 00:14:38.500 --> 00:14:43.579 this in fact this is absolutely the first time i've ever seen any footage from this except maybe 00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:48.880 in a clip somewhere where they were talking about a missing episode with, you know, my family 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:55.600 namesake, Julian Glover there. But I'm going to, I'm going to take a slightly different sense 00:14:55.740 --> 00:15:02.600 because I don't know, you know, the English, British United Kingdom education system is 00:15:02.800 --> 00:15:07.940 obviously very different and what they concentrate is very different. So I will say that in the, 00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:12.799 the, either the late seventies or the early eighties, this, this is going to take a long 00:15:12.820 --> 00:15:17.660 detour, but I'll make it as quick as possible. They started showing a show called Return of the 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:25.160 Saint. Ian Ogilvie is Simon Templer, which was basically a remake of the 60s, The Saint with 00:15:25.290 --> 00:15:30.820 Roger Moore. I had never heard of this character before when I started watching those late nights 00:15:31.400 --> 00:15:35.900 in, like I say, it's probably the early 80s. And I thought, oh my God, I quite like this. Then they 00:15:36.040 --> 00:15:39.920 started showing the Roger Moore ones. And I'm like, oh cool, this is like a longstanding thing. 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.520 And then I finally figured out that this was actually based on a series of books. 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:46.200 So I thought, well, I would like to read some of these books. 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:59.120 And in fact, the Saint books are the very first time I think I ever really got truly invested in a series of books that wasn't that was an actual series of books as opposed to a tie in. 00:15:59.500 --> 00:16:05.020 So like when I was a kid, younger kid and then the Star Trek books where they were novelizations, I had to have every one of them. 00:16:05.460 --> 00:16:16.800 But with the saint books, I started reading them at the public library, and then I started buying used copies at the bookstores, and then I have a nearly complete collection of them here on my shelves at this point. 00:16:17.260 --> 00:16:26.480 But the very first one I read was The Saint and the Templar Treasure, which I think, if my memory serves me correctly, is either a 77 or 79 book. 00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:30.360 It was the most contemporary one they had in the library. 00:16:30.800 --> 00:16:35.800 It's listed as being by Leslie Charteris, who is the creator and predominant writer of the saint. 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:39.240 However, in subsequent years, I learned it was not written by Leslie Charteris. 00:16:39.240 --> 00:16:44.840 It was ghostwritten, which is what he was doing in his dotage, just to keep the money coming in. 00:16:45.620 --> 00:16:47.640 And I really enjoyed the book. 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:55.220 And the premise was that the saint went somewhere in France where they had a previous Templar fort. 00:16:55.860 --> 00:17:01.680 And there were some adventure hunters there who were treasure hunting for some of the treasure left behind by the Templars. 00:17:01.800 --> 00:17:10.220 Now, why I say this is because up until that point in my life, I had never heard of the Templars or the Hospitallers or any of that. 00:17:10.290 --> 00:17:14.500 Because the Crusades is just something we don't do over here. 00:17:15.040 --> 00:17:16.699 It's a non-thing. 00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:17.839 So I didn't know that. 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.500 I didn't know Templars was a thing. 00:17:19.530 --> 00:17:20.500 Then I started looking into that. 00:17:20.530 --> 00:17:21.980 And then I kind of got into the Crusades. 00:17:22.699 --> 00:17:25.400 And so I started reading history of the Crusades. 00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:29.140 I even have a couple books on historical books on the Crusades here in my books. 00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:35.580 I boned up on one of them last night after watching this because I kept thinking, I'm having some trouble with parts of this. 00:17:36.050 --> 00:17:47.960 But OK. And, you know, if nothing else, the Crusades does show us the innate destructive power of religion because that's all it is. 00:17:48.700 --> 00:17:51.100 This is bloodshed for dumb reasons. 00:17:52.300 --> 00:18:00.120 So that is what I come to this from as a sort of not by any stretch of the imagination qualified historian on the Crusades. 00:18:00.780 --> 00:18:06.980 But I knew more about the real Crusades before I came into watching this episode, which I have always been looking forward to. 00:18:08.120 --> 00:18:10.800 Because I've always thought, you know, this is going to be a good one. 00:18:11.260 --> 00:18:15.280 I was not as impressed with this story. 00:18:15.840 --> 00:18:17.180 I thought it was disjointed. 00:18:17.480 --> 00:18:24.540 It really feels like four separate, it's like a different cast of characters in every episode, and it's only four episodes long. 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:28.680 It's like, William today, gone tomorrow. 00:18:30.080 --> 00:18:43.040 They just kind of come and go, and the merchant is in and gone, and the other, I don't know, it just, it has a really oddly, not even exactly episodic feel, but it's just, it's kind of strange. 00:18:44.780 --> 00:18:47.080 So, I didn't enjoy it as much as I'd hoped. 00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:53.160 that's not to say i didn't enjoy it but i was like i'm a little disappointed because i really 00:18:53.460 --> 00:19:00.080 expected that this was going to be the pinnacle of the historicals to me of the ones that i haven't 00:19:00.180 --> 00:19:06.640 seen and of the ones i've seen as well i was hoping it's the pinnacle of the ones you haven't 00:19:06.780 --> 00:19:12.779 seen yeah well you know working on the working on the assumption that when i finally get to see them 00:19:12.800 --> 00:19:16.260 in whatever form I get to see them, I'll go, yeah, it was definitely the Crusades. 00:19:16.800 --> 00:19:19.020 That's the one that sounds like it would interest me the most. 00:19:19.180 --> 00:19:21.720 That's the one that would, you know, at every button. 00:19:22.320 --> 00:19:25.020 But it's kind of, all right, it's okay. 00:19:26.560 --> 00:19:28.980 But I just felt like they could have done a lot better. 00:19:29.010 --> 00:19:33.100 And certainly this one deserves six parts as opposed to the French Revolution, 00:19:33.820 --> 00:19:36.620 which was, what, like 12 parts or, I don't know, 20 parts? 00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:38.240 It's very long. 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:39.340 The Reign of Terror. 00:19:39.760 --> 00:19:41.940 I thought the Reign of Terror was four parts as well. 00:19:42.180 --> 00:19:43.580 Is that only four parts? 00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:44.500 Holy cow. 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:46.560 I wouldn't swear. 00:19:46.620 --> 00:19:51.680 I know from my mind that it can't possibly be even seven parts, 00:19:52.420 --> 00:19:53.680 but it sure feels like it. 00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:55.740 It was so long and boring. 00:19:56.100 --> 00:19:56.840 And yeah. 00:19:57.420 --> 00:19:58.300 So this was not that. 00:19:58.560 --> 00:19:59.340 This was not that. 00:20:00.140 --> 00:20:01.540 It moved along at a pretty good clip. 00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:02.140 It just, 00:20:02.300 --> 00:20:04.720 it really just felt like they were hitting the end of an episode and 00:20:05.320 --> 00:20:07.240 turning 90 degrees and going somewhere else. 00:20:07.900 --> 00:20:09.000 Maybe because they were trying to, 00:20:09.320 --> 00:20:24.960 Maybe because they were trying to fit in little historical anecdotes, like, for example, William of, I'm going to look down here because I can't pronounce it, De Preux, De Preux, however it is pronounced, also known as William of Pratelus. 00:20:26.320 --> 00:20:44.820 That's real. That story, or at least anecdotally real, that he was with a hunting party with a king when they were out falconing and he was taken prisoner because they were pursuing him thinking he was the king. He decoyed them off that. Real. Real-ish, right? 00:20:44.900 --> 00:20:54.320 the the story of trying to marry off joanna to safadine uh maybe real it's certainly in many 00:20:54.620 --> 00:21:00.200 historical accounts um and then it's certainly also apparently contested that there is no way 00:21:00.700 --> 00:21:05.220 that richard could or would have tried that but it's possible that safadine tried it but then on 00:21:05.220 --> 00:21:11.539 the other hand you know so is that one true i don't know but it's certainly believed to be true 00:21:11.560 --> 00:21:18.260 So it's possible that they just kind of picked these spots and said, well, I want to do this and I want to do that a little bit. 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.960 And I want to do this this other little bit. I can't think of another little bit off the top of my head. 00:21:23.250 --> 00:21:31.960 Those are the two main ones. But, you know, and then they fleshed in a story around that and said, well, we got to make we got to make Ivanhoe. 00:21:32.320 --> 00:21:35.800 No, no, no. Roger Moore was Ivanhoe. What was what was William Russell? 00:21:36.380 --> 00:21:42.320 What was his show that he used to be the night in before Doctor Who? 00:21:42.800 --> 00:21:43.120 Do you remember? 00:21:44.080 --> 00:21:44.920 I had no idea. 00:21:45.860 --> 00:21:48.440 So he was already famous before he did Doctor Who. 00:21:48.900 --> 00:21:52.820 He definitely was a star of a show before Doctor Who, and he was a knight. 00:21:52.870 --> 00:21:55.460 And I can't remember if it was Ivanhoe or if it was. 00:21:56.360 --> 00:21:58.440 Anyway, I mean, obviously they had to knight him. 00:21:58.590 --> 00:22:02.840 I mean, it's just like that's just a it's just a given. 00:22:03.330 --> 00:22:04.200 They had to do that. 00:22:05.560 --> 00:22:06.600 So, I mean, I could see that. 00:22:08.360 --> 00:22:13.280 I think there's bound to be an element of truth in what you say, 00:22:13.310 --> 00:22:16.760 but I actually think the structure of the story is probably more driven 00:22:17.020 --> 00:22:25.260 by wanting to present the different courts or the different sides of the story. 00:22:25.560 --> 00:22:31.760 So, you know, you sort of see the characters in the Lionheart's party, 00:22:31.900 --> 00:22:37.800 but you also see inside Safedin Saladin's palace and El Akhir and, 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:38.280 and, 00:22:39.340 --> 00:22:39.600 you know, 00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:40.520 a little bit of, 00:22:41.840 --> 00:22:41.960 again, 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:42.640 it's, 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:43.240 it's kind of very, 00:22:43.500 --> 00:22:44.540 it's not, 00:22:44.920 --> 00:22:47.800 it's not perhaps the way you would tell a story nowadays, 00:22:48.260 --> 00:22:49.160 but what they're doing, 00:22:49.420 --> 00:22:54.980 I think is mixing in characters who represent the different people affected by 00:22:54.980 --> 00:22:56.600 the war in various ways. 00:22:57.360 --> 00:23:01.760 So the Lionheart and his sister Saladin and his brother, 00:23:01.820 --> 00:23:05.360 the character whose name I have forgotten 00:23:05.410 --> 00:23:07.800 is it Harun? Harun 00:23:08.780 --> 00:23:11.180 that's the father whose family 00:23:11.560 --> 00:23:13.520 is butchered by El-Akir 00:23:13.880 --> 00:23:17.360 El-Akir himself, the merchants 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:20.800 the Harim, there's a lot of 00:23:21.040 --> 00:23:23.780 I would say colour if it weren't a black and white story 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:27.200 and I think in some ways 00:23:27.390 --> 00:23:29.779 the action is designed to move us around 00:23:29.800 --> 00:23:36.640 those different settings and contexts in order for us to encounter those characters and experience 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:43.100 those different aspects of it and to some degree I think that curtails the ability to actually 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:51.700 kind of give any of those characters a story of their own which is why I agree it feels a bit like 00:23:51.840 --> 00:23:58.539 you know they come in and they they drop out rather abruptly in some cases but I think the 00:23:58.560 --> 00:24:03.840 way that they manage that to kind of keep the momentum going and to make it feel satisfying 00:24:04.280 --> 00:24:10.820 is that we very much follow i guess probably primarily ian and barbara's story in this although 00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:18.080 the the doctor does play a fairly active role just not a very effective one 00:24:19.760 --> 00:24:25.259 yeah yeah it i don't know it's just it is it just has a it just doesn't gel it doesn't gel 00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:34.560 from you by the way sir lancelot the adventures of sir lancelot 1956 um and uh 20 or 30 episodes 00:24:35.220 --> 00:24:44.160 one season kind of show but yeah i mean you had to have a night so i the other thing that i find 00:24:44.300 --> 00:24:50.460 interesting and i do not remember this about the crusaders the book so this is the crusade 00:24:50.800 --> 00:24:55.240 the book is actually doctor who and the crusaders in case you're looking for that target novelization 00:24:55.600 --> 00:24:57.900 I'm not selling you mine. It's on my shelf somewhere. 00:24:59.219 --> 00:25:04.580 A couple of things that I didn't think worked. 00:25:05.060 --> 00:25:06.600 No, they didn't feel right. 00:25:07.100 --> 00:25:08.060 We're in the second season. 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:15.960 And if you'll recall, going back to the earlier historical episodes, at least some of them, 00:25:16.540 --> 00:25:24.900 there is this element of Barbara the Historian filling in context for perhaps the other members of the crew. 00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:27.180 like Susan or Vicki. 00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:29.100 There's very little of that here. 00:25:29.660 --> 00:25:30.780 If you don't know, 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:33.740 I don't know what you would learn 00:25:34.280 --> 00:25:35.120 about the Crusades 00:25:35.280 --> 00:25:36.460 if you were watching this episode. 00:25:38.360 --> 00:25:40.420 It seems like they've kind of abandoned 00:25:40.680 --> 00:25:42.980 that idea of actually teaching somebody. 00:25:43.060 --> 00:25:44.980 Yes, Barbara knows that King Richard 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:45.820 has red hair, 00:25:46.360 --> 00:25:47.680 but that's about the only fact 00:25:47.820 --> 00:25:49.160 that we are at all given 00:25:49.600 --> 00:25:50.920 in the course of this episode. 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:54.480 I mean, more power to Vicki. 00:25:54.700 --> 00:25:56.440 She seems just right on board here. 00:25:56.610 --> 00:25:56.740 Okay. 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:03.500 But you'd think she wouldn't have a clue, you know, any more than I would. 00:26:03.900 --> 00:26:04.080 No. 00:26:04.370 --> 00:26:04.480 Okay. 00:26:04.780 --> 00:26:09.840 Someone who, with my educational background and not my weird Simon Templar fixation. 00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:15.080 But I also thought that was kind of like, and maybe that's why this is the beginning 00:26:15.130 --> 00:26:17.320 of the end on the historicals. 00:26:17.810 --> 00:26:19.940 You know, they're just going to bounce them in. 00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:24.660 And I think in the Romans, there wasn't a whole lot of it because they weren't, apart 00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:29.640 the fire they weren't really trying to they weren't really trying to do anything with 00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:35.620 historical events they were just sort of the historical environment does that make sense 00:26:36.280 --> 00:26:40.620 this one obviously they're trying to play up a couple of events that may or may not have actually 00:26:40.820 --> 00:26:44.940 happened but but are believed to have well i don't i don't know i think this probably is the historical 00:26:45.580 --> 00:26:52.200 this is the historical environment i think that is partly what is different about the historicals 00:26:52.220 --> 00:26:55.860 and maybe why it does make them more difficult to construct, 00:26:56.620 --> 00:26:58.700 because you're not creating, you know, 00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:04.000 the kind of futuristic stories or extraterrestrial stories, 00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.080 they have the possibility to create an environment 00:27:09.230 --> 00:27:10.460 in which the story is told, 00:27:10.650 --> 00:27:13.900 which purely serves the narrative purpose of the story. 00:27:14.440 --> 00:27:17.780 Anything that's a historical is constrained by the fact 00:27:17.940 --> 00:27:20.420 that you can't really make all of it up, 00:27:20.500 --> 00:27:24.240 even if we've talked about the fact that bits of this may not be terribly 00:27:24.580 --> 00:27:24.720 accurate. 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:28.120 So there has definitely been some making up going on. 00:27:28.820 --> 00:27:32.880 It's got to be within the parameters that allow the audience to recognize it 00:27:33.080 --> 00:27:38.100 as being the third crusade that they learned about in school. 00:27:38.420 --> 00:27:40.340 If they learned about it in school. 00:27:40.820 --> 00:27:41.160 Ah, 00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:43.540 you knew it's the third crusade. 00:27:44.020 --> 00:27:45.980 I did know it was the third crusade. 00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:47.340 There's no mention of that in this episode. 00:27:48.080 --> 00:27:50.380 And it's called the crusade as if there's only one. 00:27:50.760 --> 00:27:56.280 is it not not the crusades it's the crusade i i don't believe they have mentioned it was the 00:27:56.280 --> 00:28:01.640 third crusade i hadn't picked that up but yes it is the third crusade that's in my notes here 00:28:02.060 --> 00:28:12.300 started in 1190 so this episode uh and it was over by 1193 so best guess gosh three minutes 00:28:12.570 --> 00:28:20.400 yeah yeah it was very quick uh 85 000 men to the sword and then there you go now um it this would 00:28:20.420 --> 00:28:25.220 It was taking place in 1192 by all the way, when he was at Jaffa. 00:28:26.080 --> 00:28:26.920 And that's all right. 00:28:27.500 --> 00:28:29.540 You know, that's exactly what happened. 00:28:29.580 --> 00:28:30.800 He did come to Jaffa. 00:28:31.180 --> 00:28:39.540 Jaffa is where that was kind of their last real success story was before they failed to reach Jerusalem. 00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:43.080 So, but yeah, no, didn't get that either. 00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:45.200 Didn't even get Barbara getting a line. 00:28:45.220 --> 00:28:46.700 You know, there were eight crusades. 00:28:47.180 --> 00:28:49.200 This ran from 1462 to 1562. 00:28:49.620 --> 00:28:55.820 This one must be about the third crusade during the time of King Richard or, you know, anything, but nothing. 00:28:56.980 --> 00:29:02.420 They just like which I assume maybe every school child in Britain knew that, you know, maybe. 00:29:03.100 --> 00:29:08.240 Well, I mean, you've said you've certainly provided me with a bunch of facts that I wasn't necessarily familiar with. 00:29:08.270 --> 00:29:13.180 But on the other hand, I don't younger than the people in this, though. 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:18.880 I don't care. I don't I don't particularly want this serial to lecture at me. 00:29:19.180 --> 00:29:23.800 And these are not facts that I'm going to retain or go and tell my friends about. 00:29:24.360 --> 00:29:26.140 But that was the point of the show, was it not? 00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:26.900 Originally? 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:27.820 What? 00:29:28.170 --> 00:29:30.080 I mean, kind of historical words. 00:29:30.820 --> 00:29:33.560 Well, to convey some facts and provide some context. 00:29:33.780 --> 00:29:33.840 Yeah. 00:29:34.660 --> 00:29:36.020 Well, it's the context, though, isn't it? 00:29:36.050 --> 00:29:36.580 It's the empathy. 00:29:37.280 --> 00:29:41.220 And I, I, I mean, I, I, I don't know. 00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:42.880 To me, it does. 00:29:43.500 --> 00:29:43.820 It does. 00:29:44.230 --> 00:29:48.360 It kind of gives you the interesting things, things you were talking about, the conflict 00:29:48.380 --> 00:29:53.280 of the religion and actually there are kind of there are interesting moral dimension again i kind 00:29:53.280 --> 00:29:58.420 of question whether a story like this would be handled in this way but nevertheless there they 00:29:58.540 --> 00:30:06.540 are addressed the things like joanna's role or joanna's duty in this the you know avoiding 00:30:06.920 --> 00:30:17.679 bloodshed by essentially giving her to to uh safadine and there's there's i mean i i think 00:30:17.700 --> 00:30:25.180 I had this in my mind before I saw the comment that Dennis Spooner had admired the Shakespearean 00:30:25.420 --> 00:30:33.180 nature of Whittaker's writing. But there is actually a kind of sense of this being a bit like 00:30:33.780 --> 00:30:40.180 a Shakespearean history, that Shakespeare was a lot of the time not writing, well, 00:30:40.760 --> 00:30:45.640 a lot of the time, probably all the time, not writing for historical accuracy himself. He was 00:30:45.660 --> 00:30:51.460 writing partly for drama, partly to make political points that were contemporary and would please his 00:30:51.760 --> 00:30:58.440 patrons by being selective about the histories that he tells. And he would pick out in the way 00:30:58.520 --> 00:31:03.800 I think we get here, some of the kind of interesting, as we say, the dramatic conflicts 00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:08.040 and power plays going on between our lead characters, and also a kind of range of characters 00:31:08.140 --> 00:31:15.280 like you've got here between the kind of the nobles and the you know the kind of servants and 00:31:15.540 --> 00:31:20.640 thieves and beggars so there is something incredibly rich about that in this for at least 00:31:20.700 --> 00:31:25.780 for me i don't think that's don't think that's there and say the romans this is one of my favorite 00:31:26.080 --> 00:31:32.240 historical no the romans is a bit of a is a bit of a farce i'm gonna have to say though that you 00:31:32.260 --> 00:31:39.440 know looking whereas i said that i was expecting the crusades the crusade to be at the pinnacle 00:31:39.490 --> 00:31:46.240 of the historicals i do have to look at them and go i can't think of one that i liked better 00:31:48.100 --> 00:31:54.000 yes uh you know actually i do quite like the romans but it's pretty much a comedy 00:31:54.960 --> 00:32:00.580 too but i'd have to go back and re-watch that one i wouldn't i wouldn't show the romans to anyone 00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:03.980 who I was trying to convert to my own crusade 00:32:05.020 --> 00:32:10.300 for returning pure historicals to the current Doctor Who on TV. 00:32:11.460 --> 00:32:13.980 I don't think I found one yet to show people to say 00:32:14.120 --> 00:32:15.660 this is why we need historicals back. 00:32:15.980 --> 00:32:16.860 But OK. 00:32:17.480 --> 00:32:19.400 Well, I would happily show people the Aztecs 00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.380 and I would show people this if I was convinced 00:32:22.590 --> 00:32:24.920 they would be able to get past the reconstruction. 00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:27.640 Yeah, the Aztecs might be better. 00:32:28.160 --> 00:32:29.380 Yeah, that's actually... 00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:34.140 Actually, you know, the one that stands out in my mind as being the best one of the bunch, 00:32:34.919 --> 00:32:40.160 and we've talked about it on the podcast, which is telling you something right about it now, Marco Polo. 00:32:40.600 --> 00:32:40.720 Yeah. 00:32:41.120 --> 00:32:45.460 Because by the time they condensed it down to seven and a half minutes or whatever their reconstruction was, 00:32:45.800 --> 00:32:47.620 it's like, yeah, that's pretty good. 00:32:49.880 --> 00:32:52.680 I forgot how short it was, but it's pretty darn short. 00:32:53.020 --> 00:32:54.620 It was about half an hour, I think. 00:32:56.059 --> 00:32:58.880 That was actually seven, seven, 25 minute episodes. 00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:06.200 yeah yeah so i do kind of go i don't know how that one would stand up in full in full reconstruction 00:33:06.800 --> 00:33:12.360 when they get to that we'll find out but uh yeah no well again i i haven't i haven't tried to 00:33:12.470 --> 00:33:17.460 listen to marco polo because i'm hoping that we will get some well i'm sure we will get some 00:33:17.740 --> 00:33:22.220 version of it although chances are it's going to be another telesnap reconstruction like that but 00:33:22.280 --> 00:33:27.500 they're going to release it when they get around to the series one blu-ray box set yeah yeah i 00:33:27.520 --> 00:33:34.000 assume that that's they're going to have to keep doing that um uh i'll throw out a couple things 00:33:34.380 --> 00:33:40.400 just from the from the historical standpoint just in case anybody is remotely uh remotely 00:33:40.960 --> 00:33:45.080 uh interested in case you didn't know of course all the names have changed and all of them but 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:52.660 most of the names have changed jaffa is tel aviv is modern day tel aviv uh ramla leida uh they're 00:33:52.680 --> 00:33:58.480 all right in that area. Jerusalem is inland. Those are all coastal. And that's basically what the 00:33:58.520 --> 00:34:04.820 third crusade did. They came down the coast. At this point in history, after the second crusade, 00:34:05.320 --> 00:34:11.860 there had been a kingdom of Jerusalem established, which then collapsed, and a king of Jerusalem 00:34:11.899 --> 00:34:17.260 and whatnot, and it collapsed and had fallen back to several coastal provinces, because I believe 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:23.159 it was Saladin at that time, took back Jerusalem and drove them to the coast, but didn't drive 00:34:23.200 --> 00:34:30.440 them out. So the third crusade was to come down, reinforce those coastal kingdoms, and then take 00:34:30.580 --> 00:34:37.100 Jerusalem back, which they never did. They failed. The doctor's comment about him coming within sight 00:34:37.100 --> 00:34:46.480 of it, that is part of the lore that Richard saw Jerusalem on an excursion, saw that it was 00:34:46.500 --> 00:34:53.320 fortified in such a way that there was no way he was going to take it and apocryphically said you 00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:57.420 know i'm not going to look on this again until i take jerusalem and he never looked on it again 00:34:58.680 --> 00:35:05.220 and ultimately he managed to cut a deal with saladin for peace that allowed them to keep 00:35:05.340 --> 00:35:12.359 their lands and allowed pilgrims to go to jerusalem which was ultimately a deal that they 00:35:12.660 --> 00:35:16.440 that they sealed, which kept the peace for about three years or something. 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:24.340 But so, yeah, so you're picturing in that area, which I think, you know, by the names that I've 00:35:24.340 --> 00:35:30.460 just mentioned there, that territory has been stable and without conflict since these times. 00:35:30.610 --> 00:35:35.840 I mean, it's all been wonderfully peaceful over there in the Middle East. 00:35:39.980 --> 00:35:44.660 Let's see. I think I already mentioned it started in 1190. He had an army of 85,000 men. 00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:51.940 They were particularly brutal. Richard himself was quite the fighter and was always at the front. 00:35:52.700 --> 00:36:00.680 The stories that we're told that he recounts of Saladin sending him ice and fruits when he was ill, or snow and fruits is true. 00:36:01.200 --> 00:36:04.940 Apparently true, or at least apocryphally true from the writings of time. 00:36:05.040 --> 00:36:11.760 that was the way they treated kings. They were royalty. They actually had this sort of 00:36:12.720 --> 00:36:20.080 respecty thing going between them and the knights. So when the whole thing about Sir William being 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:25.360 taken and treated well, exactly right. If you'd been lower than that, you'd have probably been 00:36:25.580 --> 00:36:32.000 killed because that's anybody below that wasn't worth it. And they would butcher them. Both sides. 00:36:33.180 --> 00:36:39.840 Richard had just recently, after he'd taken Acre, he tried to cut a deal with Saladin for an exchange of prisoners. 00:36:40.600 --> 00:36:47.320 Not context here, but if this had been mentioned in this episode, you might wonder why Saladin was kind of, I don't know about this peace deal thing. 00:36:48.660 --> 00:36:57.660 Richard had gone to them and said, look, we've got 3,000 captured men, women, and soldiers here, and we'd like to trade them for a bunch of money or whatever. 00:36:58.300 --> 00:37:00.660 Saladin kind of goes, yeah, okay, I think we can do that. 00:37:00.780 --> 00:37:05.640 And then he delayed, basically, hoping to get more troops coming in. 00:37:06.200 --> 00:37:09.260 And eventually Richard just got really angry one day, 00:37:09.260 --> 00:37:12.940 and he hauled all 3,000 people out to within sight of the Saracen camp 00:37:12.940 --> 00:37:14.320 and slaughtered them in front of them. 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:17.700 They had their differences of opinion. 00:37:18.420 --> 00:37:20.640 In another instance that they put out somewhere, 00:37:21.790 --> 00:37:25.580 Richard was apparently fighting, and his horse had been hacked pretty good, 00:37:25.710 --> 00:37:26.900 so he was on a... 00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:29.040 And Saffodon apparently saw that, 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:33.900 didn't think it was appropriate for a king to be fighting on a horse that was really badly damaged, 00:37:34.460 --> 00:37:39.620 and sent him horses because a king should be fighting proper. 00:37:40.460 --> 00:37:44.880 It's just a weird code of conduct that they... 00:37:45.120 --> 00:37:49.940 And I felt like they were trying to convey that in this episode. 00:37:50.080 --> 00:37:54.100 I don't know if it was as successful, but it did. 00:37:54.760 --> 00:37:58.380 And although we only saw the four of them, and most of them were named William, 00:37:59.040 --> 00:38:08.500 He had an army of 85,000 and something like 200, 250 ships that had set sail as part of his fleet. 00:38:09.100 --> 00:38:12.740 His sister, Joanna, was the Dowager Queen of Sicily. 00:38:13.220 --> 00:38:14.520 She was 25 years old. 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:22.540 This did, again, apparently there was some brokerage of trying to get her to marry Safedin. 00:38:23.160 --> 00:38:27.500 and then they would cede all the lands that they had won, 00:38:27.750 --> 00:38:28.820 all the coastal kingdoms, 00:38:29.530 --> 00:38:31.300 they would cede as part of her dowry 00:38:31.980 --> 00:38:36.020 so that she would become the queen of basically Jerusalem 00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:40.740 and Safedin would be the emir, not Saladin. 00:38:42.059 --> 00:38:45.960 And that was put forth by somebody. 00:38:46.560 --> 00:38:48.320 Some historians say it was put forth by one side. 00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:50.200 Some historians say it was put forth by the other side. 00:38:50.700 --> 00:38:54.320 others still say it's ridiculous and idiotic that they would ever even consider that because 00:38:54.920 --> 00:39:00.460 there are a variety of things working against it for example she was a widow and a widow can't be 00:39:00.540 --> 00:39:09.080 forced into a marriage apparently um that that's a thing without her consent and uh also the this 00:39:09.340 --> 00:39:16.159 the the muslims can divorce with no consequences for the husband and he gets everything so he could 00:39:16.180 --> 00:39:21.600 have just married her and then divorced her and she'd have been out and dead and gone so it it 00:39:21.900 --> 00:39:27.280 never came to anything because she just steadfastly refused so and let's see i don't know i think 00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:34.140 that's it i have on the historical stuff but uh it was it just felt a little bit like a miss 00:39:34.250 --> 00:39:41.719 because it is sort of a rich tapestry and yet it is kind of treated like a 1950s ivanhoe so 00:39:41.740 --> 00:39:46.280 Lancelot kind of running in this forest and daring do show, 00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:48.960 although not as much daring do or running in the forest, 00:39:49.600 --> 00:39:51.280 but do you have anything else on the story? 00:39:51.860 --> 00:39:52.900 I'm interested in the, 00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:55.980 the kind of lead our regular characters, 00:39:56.240 --> 00:39:59.300 because I think in some ways it's quite interesting how they're handled in 00:39:59.420 --> 00:39:59.620 this. 00:40:00.240 --> 00:40:01.680 Certainly the, 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:02.420 the doctors, 00:40:03.060 --> 00:40:06.360 the doctors playing quite sort of high status character. 00:40:06.390 --> 00:40:11.320 He pulls off his kind of heart and all imperiousness to good effect. 00:40:11.560 --> 00:40:18.440 a number of times in this and i think it's probably one of my favorite of hartnell's 00:40:18.660 --> 00:40:25.000 performances but it's interesting in some ways that it's slightly atypical of the doctor i guess 00:40:25.460 --> 00:40:32.840 i mean like he he's quite violent in the fight at the opening he bashes one of the saracens and 00:40:32.860 --> 00:40:42.860 he grabs a sword and waves it around and yeah i mean i i suppose we do see in is it an unearthly 00:40:42.980 --> 00:40:49.700 child or is it no it's it's the second episode the 10 000 tribe of gum or whatever you see or 00:40:49.720 --> 00:40:59.000 whatever where where he tries to bash the head in of a um cave dwelling early human but by this 00:40:59.020 --> 00:41:04.720 point it I guess it it doesn't it doesn't feel entirely typical and actually in some ways 00:41:05.820 --> 00:41:11.860 Ian is even more you I mean you've you've picked up on that kind of backflip he does when he pulls 00:41:11.860 --> 00:41:17.620 his hands free from the stakes in the desert after his boots have been cut off but that's not all he 00:41:17.630 --> 00:41:24.120 does he has quite a lengthy sword fight himself at the beginning he has a number of action scenes 00:41:24.140 --> 00:41:29.380 where you kind of think, hmm, this is more, you say he was Salancelot. 00:41:29.720 --> 00:41:32.760 That sounds more like the Salancelot kind of thing 00:41:33.420 --> 00:41:37.680 than the Ian Chesterton school teacher kind of thing. 00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:41.920 I mean, this is an interesting thing for a science teacher to have. 00:41:42.340 --> 00:41:43.380 He's always that. 00:41:43.380 --> 00:41:44.860 I mean, he's that in the Aztecs. 00:41:45.860 --> 00:41:49.980 I mean, that is the role he ultimately comes out to fulfill, though. 00:41:50.440 --> 00:41:54.400 I think he may have been the science teacher and also the PE teacher at the school. 00:41:54.800 --> 00:42:05.280 Well, maybe it's it's it's it's definitely they're writing for William Russell more than they're writing the character of this. 00:42:05.560 --> 00:42:10.680 The school science teacher who has wandered into the TARDIS because he was curious about one of his pupils. 00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:17.920 Oh, the other thing about the doctor was that he he decides he's going to steal some clothes. 00:42:18.560 --> 00:42:36.720 I don't know if that counts as, you know, in addition to violence, he's committing theft, but he justifies it on the basis that they're already stolen, which is kind of true on the one hand, but doesn't really mean that he's not enriching himself, as it were. 00:42:36.780 --> 00:42:45.920 so well i mean the first doctor was uh a little bit more of a devious character i mean i i think 00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:51.340 in some ways they did paint him as a bit the anti-hero this is the man that sabotaged his 00:42:51.380 --> 00:42:55.940 own ship because he wanted to go see the dalek city yeah mischievous as you say it's a guy who 00:42:56.000 --> 00:43:01.420 was willing to bash the head of a caveman in to serve his own ends and admittedly they toned 00:43:01.820 --> 00:43:06.080 that down and i have no problem with him grabbing a sword to fight when he's been attacked by 00:43:06.100 --> 00:43:11.060 somebody with a sword who's trying to kill him i know it would have been a little believable if he 00:43:11.720 --> 00:43:16.500 failed at that utterly but well yes that would yes that would have been that would have been my 00:43:16.660 --> 00:43:22.300 point i i don't i don't disagree with any of that it's i guess it's just interesting that 00:43:22.640 --> 00:43:31.100 we're into the second half of um season two and i yeah i don't i don't know i mean none none of 00:43:31.120 --> 00:43:38.640 this in any way detracted from my enjoyment of the episode i think possibly the the handling of 00:43:39.120 --> 00:43:49.600 barbara what it that she's mostly the kind of damsel in distress in this she isn't never used 00:43:49.660 --> 00:43:54.060 her knowledge of history to save the day she doesn't use her knowledge of history to save 00:43:54.140 --> 00:44:01.080 the day but she also makes moves that you kind of think are not necessarily too smart in every case 00:44:01.260 --> 00:44:05.500 So it's perhaps not Barbara's finest episode. 00:44:06.940 --> 00:44:07.100 No. 00:44:07.700 --> 00:44:10.600 Vicky, I just got confused by. 00:44:10.740 --> 00:44:18.400 I mean, I didn't really understand why she was being dressed up as a boy in the first place, because what was the point? 00:44:18.580 --> 00:44:21.480 It's not like they were hiding that Barbara is a woman. 00:44:22.350 --> 00:44:26.480 So they certainly weren't doing a good job of hiding that Vicky was a woman either. 00:44:27.680 --> 00:44:33.220 No, it certainly seemed a bit odd to these people going, what do you mean she's a girl? 00:44:34.560 --> 00:44:40.580 Well, you know, the clothes maketh the man and those are the clothes they were able to steal. I don't know. 00:44:41.260 --> 00:44:48.440 I guess it could have been that. I mean, again, I suppose it comes back to the Shakespearean thing of you can't get much more Shakespearean than a bit of cross-dressing. 00:44:49.120 --> 00:44:55.280 But Vicky was confused about why she had to dress as a boy, I think. And then so was I confused about it. 00:44:55.360 --> 00:45:06.320 But then also I was confused about why suddenly they had the scene where there's a reveal and she doesn't have to dress as a boy anymore because it didn't seem to serve any purpose in the greater story. 00:45:06.340 --> 00:45:09.480 It just seemed to be a way of, you know, filling time. 00:45:10.100 --> 00:45:18.920 Yes. And it's another one of those 90 degree turns that just felt like, OK, well, we went there and nothing came of it. 00:45:19.300 --> 00:45:22.320 You know, it's like Sir William disappeared after a certain point. 00:45:22.780 --> 00:45:25.780 After the last time he sees Ian, he says, you know, good luck. 00:45:26.380 --> 00:45:28.080 Okay, Sir William's fate is sealed. 00:45:28.220 --> 00:45:32.420 He's going to be in El Akeer's prisons forever, I guess. 00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:36.360 And, you know, he could have turned up again at the end, 00:45:36.940 --> 00:45:40.940 but obviously they don't want to pay the actor to be in for a part. 00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:43.880 It's sort of this character's came and went. 00:45:44.620 --> 00:45:47.680 They've got another 84,999 Sir William, so. 00:45:48.420 --> 00:45:49.200 Exactly, exactly. 00:45:49.220 --> 00:45:50.240 He'll be able to lose one. 00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:53.720 Okay, I will point this one out. 00:45:54.580 --> 00:45:55.440 So, Sir William 00:45:55.780 --> 00:45:56.700 De Preux, 00:45:58.500 --> 00:45:59.680 however they pronounced it, 00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:01.780 real. The other 00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:02.280 Sir William, 00:46:03.960 --> 00:46:05.160 or whatever it was, 00:46:06.540 --> 00:46:07.020 not real. 00:46:07.700 --> 00:46:09.680 So, they created a scene 00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:11.700 where the king was out with 00:46:11.900 --> 00:46:13.820 two people, one historical 00:46:14.140 --> 00:46:15.580 and one not, and they couldn't have 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:17.760 thinking of going, well, maybe we could call the other 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:18.500 one Sir James. 00:46:20.060 --> 00:46:20.680 Sir Bernard. 00:46:21.380 --> 00:46:28.200 yeah anything but for whatever reason they chose to name them both william that's just an odd 00:46:28.390 --> 00:46:34.520 writing choice unless you're going to make a joke of it which they didn't so you know i mean it 00:46:34.610 --> 00:46:41.120 happens in real life sure i'm sure that in your life you've met other simons um i met a eugene 00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:48.179 once twice two two of them i mean it's interesting that um you're having difficulty pronouncing 00:46:48.240 --> 00:46:53.800 De Preux but and also the difficulty with having two Williams on on the screen but Julian Glover 00:46:53.850 --> 00:46:59.940 deals with this by calling him Richard De Preux at some point which both gets his name wrong but 00:47:00.160 --> 00:47:03.680 still has the problem that there are two characters with the same name because he's supposed to be 00:47:03.730 --> 00:47:14.239 Richard as well. Was the actor's name Richard by any chance? No I believe it was John. Okay it's 00:47:14.260 --> 00:47:19.080 just you know it's like it's like that's beardy guy and that's captured guy it's not a problem 00:47:19.300 --> 00:47:24.120 it's just it when you're and it's like well what are we going to do about sir william what are you 00:47:24.130 --> 00:47:27.860 going to do about sir william he's right there in the room with you what it's like he's injured 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:33.960 he's got the william the beardy oh william the beardy got it it it's just it's not that it 00:47:34.160 --> 00:47:39.060 didn't happen in the real world and not that i couldn't keep track of it it's just well yeah no 00:47:39.120 --> 00:47:42.239 in a way i couldn't keep track of it because when i'm writing notes down and then suddenly i go 00:47:42.260 --> 00:47:47.360 wait i thought the other guy was sir william oh no i'm confused wait wait no there's two sir 00:47:47.520 --> 00:47:52.880 williams okay well i guess they're both real historical figures and therefore that is why 00:47:52.880 --> 00:48:02.860 you would do that but no they are not so why would you do that and and odd but okay there you go 00:48:03.180 --> 00:48:10.779 the other thing about the doctors the doctors um behavior in this is again i think it's coming back 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:15.620 of the product of the time and file under actors blacking up 00:48:15.620 --> 00:48:17.780 and all the other things that go on. 00:48:18.340 --> 00:48:24.540 But it's the way that he treats Richard's plan 00:48:24.970 --> 00:48:28.340 to marry Joanna off without her consent 00:48:29.020 --> 00:48:34.580 because he doesn't give away the king's plan to her, 00:48:34.610 --> 00:48:36.000 although he's accused of it. 00:48:36.580 --> 00:48:40.760 And it's almost presented as if he's done the right thing 00:48:40.820 --> 00:48:46.260 there he's being unfairly accused of doing something that undermines the king but actually 00:48:46.980 --> 00:48:55.880 i definitely felt that he should have tipped her off as to to what was going on i kind of 00:48:56.320 --> 00:49:04.960 that whole thing is a little odd because he does say a couple of times to richard before the idea 00:49:05.020 --> 00:49:15.060 is broached that he should ask her right he he does he does put that case that it's a great idea 00:49:15.340 --> 00:49:22.400 if she agrees yeah if she agrees now is that because he knows she won't agree because he 00:49:22.580 --> 00:49:29.040 knows his history or is is that just because you know he's he's taking the position of of 00:49:29.480 --> 00:49:36.200 let's go with consent and but then he did promise her he would keep her informed of his plans and he 00:49:36.460 --> 00:49:42.880 absolutely breaks that he absolutely breaks that he doesn't tell her yeah it's no he he does 00:49:43.140 --> 00:49:46.780 absolutely break that i think i think the point about trying to get richard to tell her is that 00:49:46.880 --> 00:49:55.020 he's trying to do that so to keep to to make sure that she gets kept informed but without having to 00:49:55.440 --> 00:50:01.260 as it were go against the king's wishes because he's obviously that point not wishing to well at 00:50:01.310 --> 00:50:08.160 any point not wishing to tell her and so if he were to go ahead and share that confidence with 00:50:08.280 --> 00:50:14.440 joanna herself it would be going against the king so he there's a there's an element of scheming with 00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:21.260 it going on there but he doesn't get away with it and when the chips are down he decides to side with 00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:28.000 the king in effect rather than with joanna and keep his word to her yeah it's an odd it's an 00:50:28.100 --> 00:50:35.480 other the other part with the doctor and i mean i watched it i watched it twice just to that's that 00:50:35.560 --> 00:50:41.580 whole bit when the chamberlain comes to him and accuses him of stealing the clothes and he he 00:50:41.740 --> 00:50:46.020 circular logics his way out of that but as far as i can tell he did not 00:50:49.120 --> 00:50:55.300 it's like you people are it's like that abbott and costello routine where they they say i can't 00:50:55.300 --> 00:51:01.780 even do it it's so it it mind bends me with like give me five dollars uh or i need loan me loan me 00:51:01.790 --> 00:51:07.280 ten dollars here's five dollars i paid you back now you owe me five dollars and what huh yeah 00:51:07.960 --> 00:51:14.220 somehow it felt like that and uh i mean sure it's supposed to be funny and it kind of is 00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:19.120 and but at the same time it's like yeah i guess you just can't outsmart a time lord that's all 00:51:20.020 --> 00:51:27.280 that's all i mean the so performances of the regulars aside i would say the acting in this 00:51:27.280 --> 00:51:35.920 is distinctly mixed i i really liked obviously got julian glover and gene marsh and we know 00:51:35.940 --> 00:51:43.040 they're great and they are great in this former mrs john pertwee indeed bernard kaye as well but 00:51:43.060 --> 00:51:49.160 There are a lot of other performances in this that are pretty weak, I think. 00:51:49.160 --> 00:51:54.320 Not major characters, but scenes between guards or soldiers or whatever, 00:51:54.560 --> 00:51:58.400 where you think you've just hauled these guys in off the street. 00:52:00.500 --> 00:52:07.280 Well, they did haul some people in who were not as commonly looking of English people. 00:52:07.620 --> 00:52:10.160 Some of them are obviously in blackface and some of them are not. 00:52:10.360 --> 00:52:17.200 So it's possible that the Pickens were less in the actors' guild back then for some of those roles. 00:52:17.680 --> 00:52:18.940 But, yeah. 00:52:19.560 --> 00:52:21.160 Well, no, I mean, it wasn't. 00:52:21.500 --> 00:52:21.960 It wasn't. 00:52:22.030 --> 00:52:25.960 I don't think the bad performances were just the people. 00:52:25.980 --> 00:52:27.040 Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. 00:52:27.580 --> 00:52:30.260 I mean, it was kind of across the board. 00:52:30.270 --> 00:52:31.680 It wasn't all terrible. 00:52:32.060 --> 00:52:35.720 But, yeah, I was definitely thinking, you know, this is a great script. 00:52:36.980 --> 00:52:39.220 And generally, well, realistically, 00:52:39.420 --> 00:52:41.860 Some people were making the most of it, 00:52:41.860 --> 00:52:46.060 but there were definitely scenes where it felt like you were watching a school play. 00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:55.060 I definitely did feel that it was just Richard and his five compatriots there 00:52:57.020 --> 00:53:00.760 that were there to take back the Holy Land. 00:53:01.270 --> 00:53:03.080 There was something to that. 00:53:05.300 --> 00:53:08.600 and maybe that contributes to the small scale feel, 00:53:08.980 --> 00:53:10.100 the play feel of it. 00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:14.080 Yes, but when the Holy Land is as small, 00:53:15.140 --> 00:53:17.440 when the Holy Land is small enough to fit in a television studio, 00:53:17.540 --> 00:53:19.320 you probably only need five people to take it. 00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:20.300 That's true. 00:53:20.720 --> 00:53:21.040 That's true. 00:53:21.300 --> 00:53:22.020 And he still failed. 00:53:22.420 --> 00:53:23.140 He still failed. 00:53:23.660 --> 00:53:23.860 Indeed. 00:53:24.740 --> 00:53:26.020 Although, I mean, I did say, 00:53:26.940 --> 00:53:29.620 talking about the fact that we kind of leave before the, 00:53:29.700 --> 00:53:33.540 the kind of what is going to happen is explained in dialogue, 00:53:33.960 --> 00:53:45.880 But we do get quite a kind of satisfying ending where Lester tries to or intercepts the doctor and is about to do away with him. 00:53:47.240 --> 00:53:59.040 And so that kind of moment where Ian kind of pulls that trick, it feels like the story is winding down and then it's got one more thing up its sleeve. 00:53:59.180 --> 00:54:00.520 It's a pretty satisfying ending, I thought. 00:54:01.040 --> 00:54:03.540 I will go so far as to say this. 00:54:03.980 --> 00:54:07.960 I was slightly, I was slightly confused in that moment. 00:54:08.580 --> 00:54:11.180 And then my brain put the pieces together. It's like, Oh yeah, 00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:15.420 here's another character that did not show up until after Ian left. 00:54:16.160 --> 00:54:19.680 Lester was not in any of the earlier episodes until after Ian was sent. 00:54:19.860 --> 00:54:22.500 And then Lester shows up. It's, it's again, 00:54:22.640 --> 00:54:25.980 it's that sort of rotating cast just they come in and they're gone. 00:54:26.070 --> 00:54:27.860 It's the only way it works. Obviously he, 00:54:28.040 --> 00:54:31.900 he can't have known that Ian was part of Sir Ian was part of the, 00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:33.700 of the group. 00:54:34.939 --> 00:54:36.640 And we've kind of talked about how 00:54:37.240 --> 00:54:38.820 this story is probably 00:54:39.050 --> 00:54:40.580 better for not being an out-and-out comedy 00:54:40.690 --> 00:54:42.000 in the way that the Romans was. 00:54:42.540 --> 00:54:44.520 But if there was one thing that made me laugh 00:54:44.660 --> 00:54:46.040 in this, it was Leicester saying, 00:54:46.350 --> 00:54:48.540 we will not speak of this or we will look like fools. 00:54:48.940 --> 00:54:49.860 I thought that was very good. 00:54:51.700 --> 00:54:52.520 You'd think they would just be 00:54:52.640 --> 00:54:54.160 all on the witchcraft thing, but 00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:56.760 all right, no, it's a good call on his part. 00:54:56.790 --> 00:54:57.220 I agree. 00:54:58.539 --> 00:55:00.460 So, unless you have anything else on 00:55:00.480 --> 00:55:07.400 the story let's do recall our attention to to the travesty that is tell us now reconstructions okay 00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:17.120 well i'll i'll let you go first i've seen better and i've seen worse i think obviously a lot i've 00:55:17.120 --> 00:55:27.800 paid for worse yes well yes i i mean the underwater menace is is odd it's a pinnacle of bad yes well 00:55:27.820 --> 00:55:33.260 one of the things is that you can only use the material that you have available and some stories 00:55:33.420 --> 00:55:38.760 have lots of telesnaps and some stories have fewer and you know being able to because they weren't 00:55:38.940 --> 00:55:42.580 intended to be placed in a sequence that would accompany the soundtrack in order to actually 00:55:42.920 --> 00:55:49.440 convey the narrative that is now missing you can't necessarily expect it to work perfectly in that 00:55:49.520 --> 00:55:54.780 respect and so some of the things in this that or put it the other way around the things in the 00:55:54.800 --> 00:56:00.620 Underwater Menace that were just inexplicable. They don't do in this. So they tend to put up 00:56:00.720 --> 00:56:06.280 a telesnap of the person who is speaking. I know that sounds fairly basic, but that was really 00:56:06.350 --> 00:56:12.640 odd in The Underwater Menace. The other factor in terms of having to basically depend on your 00:56:12.690 --> 00:56:17.260 source material is the soundtracks weren't designed to be heard without seeing the video. 00:56:18.100 --> 00:56:24.760 So I think that's very different. And I kind of felt motivated to leap to the defense of audio 00:56:24.780 --> 00:56:26.820 because I do think that when it's done well, 00:56:27.420 --> 00:56:30.100 one of the kind of things that's great about it 00:56:30.220 --> 00:56:32.500 is that you can build these pictures in your mind 00:56:32.720 --> 00:56:34.760 that really kind of transcend the limitations 00:56:35.020 --> 00:56:37.060 of what could be realised on screen. 00:56:38.080 --> 00:56:40.660 And this wasn't designed like that. 00:56:40.840 --> 00:56:43.560 Some of the information that is being conveyed 00:56:44.300 --> 00:56:48.480 by the production is being conveyed visually. 00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:50.760 And that's not always the case. 00:56:51.000 --> 00:56:52.840 You know, some of the missing episodes 00:56:52.840 --> 00:57:00.080 are kind of wordy enough or whatever that you can pretty much get everything that's going on 00:57:00.700 --> 00:57:06.680 just by listening to all of the dialogue and a few of the sound effects but as you kind of 00:57:07.140 --> 00:57:14.420 very well illustrated in your synopsis here there are sequences where the soundtrack simply 00:57:15.040 --> 00:57:22.020 doesn't convey what the hell is going on at all and there just isn't enough visual material to 00:57:22.600 --> 00:57:29.320 piece together something that that conveys that so in a way I mean I understand I think why they 00:57:29.320 --> 00:57:36.280 did it but in a way it seems to me an odd decision that on the blu-ray the default soundtrack doesn't 00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:43.260 have the linking narration that I think is just that they've included it almost as an extra because 00:57:43.290 --> 00:57:50.060 I think it was recorded for the cd release about 15 years ago but it is more or less essential to 00:57:50.080 --> 00:57:57.840 understanding this story it is it's quite it's quite uh it has quite a flourish to it to barbara 00:57:58.040 --> 00:58:03.520 winding down the dark streets the shadows banging around her everywhere she turns this it is a city 00:58:03.580 --> 00:58:11.400 in fear of ella cure and it's like wow okay well i think i think that's maybe why it's not included 00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:18.080 as the default because there's an element of editorializing it's it's there's new writing 00:58:18.080 --> 00:58:24.400 going on there there's there's laying over what was in the original script and interpretation 00:58:25.150 --> 00:58:32.040 that potentially goes above and beyond that but I think you have to do that with the missing episodes 00:58:32.760 --> 00:58:37.940 the choices that you make about the telesnaps that you're going to present on screen are themselves 00:58:38.360 --> 00:58:44.500 editorial decisions certainly and we've discussed this before when you do the animations you're 00:58:44.520 --> 00:58:51.200 creating something that is essentially a new production, albeit partly new production married 00:58:51.440 --> 00:58:57.420 with partly old production. But that's just the reality of it. I would love it if the original 00:58:58.820 --> 00:59:05.200 Crusades episodes were rediscovered and we could see what was intended to be on screen. But if we 00:59:05.320 --> 00:59:10.460 can't, what I would like is to enjoy as much of those original performances as is possible, 00:59:10.960 --> 00:59:13.440 with the story still making some kind of sense. 00:59:13.510 --> 00:59:15.240 And obviously the ideal for that is, 00:59:15.690 --> 00:59:17.560 could we please have an animation for it? 00:59:18.100 --> 00:59:24.300 But if we're going to have something that has kind of gaps 00:59:24.540 --> 00:59:26.680 in what is visually conveyed, 00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:31.060 then, yeah, we do kind of need the audio or something 00:59:31.700 --> 00:59:33.500 to fill in those gaps for us. 00:59:33.680 --> 00:59:36.600 So, I mean, it's great that that audio soundtrack 00:59:36.900 --> 00:59:38.320 is included on the discs, 00:59:38.820 --> 00:59:45.180 But I think maybe, I mean, the animations where they're included are the default. 00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:51.240 The recons, because they've included the recons on the animation releases, are an extra. 00:59:51.820 --> 00:59:57.080 And I feel like probably it would have made sense to make the narrations the default on this. 00:59:57.460 --> 01:00:00.960 And the unaugmented audio an extra. 01:00:01.560 --> 01:00:06.180 Yeah, no, I completely agree that that should have been the default position. 01:00:06.780 --> 01:00:11.880 I mean, I would go so far as to say is they should have just knuckled under and done an animation, but okay. 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:20.660 They didn't just bite the bullet, get the job done so that you don't have to buy this again in five years when they decide to try again. 01:00:21.240 --> 01:00:30.820 It is, as reconstructions go, I would put it more or less on par with the Web Planet missing episode, the Telesnap version, 01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:35.820 which I thought was pretty good given what they had available. 01:00:36.640 --> 01:00:42.140 the web planet's not missing is it sorry not the web plan the web of fear web of fear ah right yeah 01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:47.020 gotcha yeah the the first the first reconstruction before they did the animation before they animated 01:00:47.200 --> 01:00:53.020 it yeah that was a that was you know that was a as telestaps go up to that point i would say that 01:00:53.020 --> 01:00:58.100 was the best one i'd ever seen and come to think of it that's the last one i've seen since this one 01:00:58.260 --> 01:01:04.640 so um except for the underwater menace which is an absolute travesty uh for a variety of reasons 01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:08.160 And that's not me bagging on the Underwater Menace, the story. 01:01:08.780 --> 01:01:10.100 That's a whole different thing. 01:01:10.440 --> 01:01:12.920 It's a terrible Telestap reconstruction. 01:01:13.780 --> 01:01:15.620 And they had the audacity to sell it to me. 01:01:16.640 --> 01:01:17.460 I paid for it. 01:01:17.460 --> 01:01:18.620 And I still think... 01:01:18.620 --> 01:01:21.640 They had the audacity to offer to sell it to you. 01:01:22.560 --> 01:01:24.760 Yes, I still think that they should come here, 01:01:25.180 --> 01:01:26.900 get down on their freaking hands and knees, 01:01:27.240 --> 01:01:29.520 beg my forgiveness with my money in my hand 01:01:29.720 --> 01:01:32.720 to give it back to me after purchasing that. 01:01:32.880 --> 01:01:34.480 Because it's so bad. 01:01:34.900 --> 01:01:40.120 that it is an embarrassment there they force you to bear it no i buy it thinking it's going to be 01:01:40.260 --> 01:01:47.860 not shit is my thought and then it wasn't pardon my french but i think we can get by one in 10 11 01:01:48.120 --> 01:01:54.940 years but it's just like wow you thought i'm putting a warning on the podcast now how could 01:01:55.020 --> 01:02:00.780 i have you know how could you sell that in good faith to people that's what it crossed my mind 01:02:00.800 --> 01:02:14.360 And we know, just to go back to that, that the team that put it together were given very strict instructions by the BBC arm that was doing this, that they weren't allowed to do anything with that telesnaps. 01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:16.480 They were allowed to only use telesnaps that they had. 01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:19.340 They were only allowed to use still telesnaps. 01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:23.260 They were only allowed to use them in the order that they appeared at the place where they appeared. 01:02:23.700 --> 01:02:28.700 And they could not, like, oh, here's a shot of the doctor talking with an indiscriminate background. 01:02:28.780 --> 01:02:32.120 So let's put this in there while he's talking because it's from somewhere else. 01:02:32.120 --> 01:02:33.560 They weren't allowed to do any of that. 01:02:33.960 --> 01:02:37.920 They were under strict, make this as awful as you possibly can orders. 01:02:38.520 --> 01:02:38.960 And they did. 01:02:39.340 --> 01:02:39.900 They succeeded. 01:02:40.280 --> 01:02:41.480 But then somebody sold it to me. 01:02:41.680 --> 01:02:47.700 And that is the part where, like, that's an editorial decision that they should still be paying for. 01:02:48.120 --> 01:02:49.320 This was better than that. 01:02:49.400 --> 01:02:58.900 But as you say, there are some sequences in this that just cannot function without the visuals as they exist. 01:02:59.960 --> 01:03:02.400 Like the bit where Barbara's running up and down the streets. 01:03:03.040 --> 01:03:07.020 I really did when they go, bring the woman into the palace. 01:03:07.230 --> 01:03:09.920 And then I'm like, what? 01:03:10.500 --> 01:03:10.660 Something? 01:03:11.050 --> 01:03:11.240 Huh? 01:03:11.330 --> 01:03:12.560 Did somebody just rescue her? 01:03:12.750 --> 01:03:13.300 Was it Ian? 01:03:13.620 --> 01:03:14.780 Did Ian make it in time? 01:03:15.100 --> 01:03:15.440 No. 01:03:16.700 --> 01:03:18.660 Now she's, is she in the palace? 01:03:18.720 --> 01:03:21.580 Is that indoors? Is that outdoors? I don't know what's going on here. 01:03:21.980 --> 01:03:24.260 Oh, the guard, he's molesting some chickens. 01:03:25.440 --> 01:03:27.760 Okay. I think she must have escaped. 01:03:28.230 --> 01:03:30.300 It took a couple of frames to go. 01:03:30.300 --> 01:03:32.920 I think they're chasing her through the thing. 01:03:33.160 --> 01:03:33.740 I'm not sure. 01:03:35.460 --> 01:03:37.840 She should have stomped on their foot and said, 01:03:37.920 --> 01:03:41.680 I'm getting away from you or run or something, but she didn't. 01:03:42.000 --> 01:03:46.560 So she was not obviously planning for the future when the episode would be lost. 01:03:50.200 --> 01:03:53.460 there is one thing I will say for this reconstruction that I have to point out 01:03:54.040 --> 01:04:00.880 there's the scene where Barbara is in the Harim and the eldest daughter of Arun says 01:04:01.540 --> 01:04:07.580 we will we will hide you here we all hate him and they cut that picture to that one woman 01:04:08.560 --> 01:04:14.500 and you're going like oh yeah that woman that was my notes at that point were that woman 01:04:15.940 --> 01:04:21.780 absolutely and i thought that i thought that was well done i mean it was bashing you over the head 01:04:22.160 --> 01:04:30.300 because every time they mentioned um el akir or the reward or anything like that they cut to 01:04:30.660 --> 01:04:39.040 that one tele-snap they had of fatima in the harem and that look on her face yeah well i'm not even 01:04:39.060 --> 01:04:44.900 sure if it was that look but but it but it was it was kind of you the the point is you don't have 01:04:45.140 --> 01:04:51.180 her expressions sort of say i'm pretending to i'm pretending to be good but really i'm scheming or 01:04:51.320 --> 01:04:57.100 whatever she whatever she would have been doing in terms of acting to the camera when the the actual 01:04:57.210 --> 01:05:02.940 video camera was there you don't have any of that so you do have to bash your audience over the head 01:05:03.320 --> 01:05:09.100 to a degree when you don't have any of that nuance in there you just you simply have the 01:05:09.260 --> 01:05:15.240 same still picture again and again the only the only way you can convey the information is by 01:05:15.780 --> 01:05:23.460 using it timing it to coincide with those kind of significant points in the audio it had nothing to 01:05:23.460 --> 01:05:29.160 do with the fact that they did it over and over again it was the instant they showed that i think 01:05:29.180 --> 01:05:38.720 her face says everything you need to know that is the huh i can get rich face and i think that's a 01:05:38.900 --> 01:05:45.340 beautifully whoever took that telestep picked the exact right instant to get what that woman is 01:05:45.340 --> 01:05:51.040 going to do that is the perfect picture i got that face i looked at it i'm go yep she's betraying her 01:05:51.640 --> 01:05:56.020 maybe it's partially the timing and then of course the second time they did it the third time they 01:05:56.040 --> 01:06:01.440 did it the fourth time they did it i'm like oh yeah yeah yeah but because i'm not sure i got 01:06:01.520 --> 01:06:06.100 that sense i'm not sure i got that sense as strongly as you because what the script gives 01:06:06.240 --> 01:06:12.520 you is that someone is going to betray barbara and what that telesnap gives you is that there 01:06:12.620 --> 01:06:18.980 are two women who the camera as it were camera in inverted commas has cut to at this point 01:06:19.500 --> 01:06:23.740 and then it keeps cutting back to the same telesnap and the same two women and i was like 01:06:23.760 --> 01:06:28.200 well I'm pretty sure it's the one on the right but oh yeah I don't know that because I don't 01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:33.720 know where these telesnaps have been taken from it's not until later in the story where she creeps 01:06:33.780 --> 01:06:38.040 out of the room and you get to see a different telesnap so you realize yes it was the one on the 01:06:38.140 --> 01:06:44.300 right I I really did I wrote in capital letters that woman the first time they put that shot up 01:06:44.380 --> 01:06:53.720 I'm like ah yeah burned in my head that's made could be the framing could be all sorts of things 01:06:53.740 --> 01:06:59.940 just it was you know it could be just a picture showing the massive harim that he's got of you 01:06:59.940 --> 01:07:06.940 know three women i don't know what else there is about this telesnap i'm i'm glad to get a chance 01:07:06.940 --> 01:07:14.300 to see it i'm disappointed at how they've chosen to do it i don't know it doesn't it really doesn't 01:07:14.300 --> 01:07:22.480 seem to me like this historical is that much more complicated than a space drama the fact that they 01:07:22.500 --> 01:07:28.880 do have three clothes changes notwithstanding but i have i have to say because i mean that's that's 01:07:29.060 --> 01:07:35.080 that's kind of going back to three or four years ago when charles norton kind of picked out some 01:07:35.080 --> 01:07:42.040 of the episodes like marco polo the heidens and indeed this one as being unlikely to be 01:07:42.800 --> 01:07:48.760 animated because of the the kind of costumes involved and i and i looked at it and i thought 01:07:48.780 --> 01:07:53.920 well you know is this really that the way the way it's kind of mounted the way the production is 01:07:54.100 --> 01:08:01.040 mounted it doesn't look to my non-expert animators eye as if it's that different from say the reign 01:08:01.040 --> 01:08:08.800 of terror but i guess when you actually look at the cast list and the number of people that they 01:08:08.920 --> 01:08:14.860 would have to draw rig and animate they do have a lot of people coming and going it's a it's a lot 01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:19.060 of people and it goes back to that thing that you were saying about you know one episode there's a 01:08:19.259 --> 01:08:23.660 there's a load of characters they all disappear and then you get another load of characters in 01:08:23.660 --> 01:08:29.440 the next episode and so all of those have to be created separately by the animators and i can see 01:08:29.580 --> 01:08:36.060 why that makes this you know potentially i don't know twice as expensive as an episode that only 01:08:36.220 --> 01:08:41.600 has a few people in it i do have to ask this question i and i'm i'm willing to bet that there 01:08:41.620 --> 01:08:49.620 is like a dramatic story to be told that behind the scenes of intrigue and possibly illness and 01:08:49.819 --> 01:08:55.339 death or something. But at the end of episode three, yes, at the end of episode three, a bandit 01:08:55.540 --> 01:09:04.319 comes upon Ian. He's trying to steal some stuff and then Ian catches him, spins him over, get him 01:09:04.460 --> 01:09:09.180 choked, and then an unseen assailant whacks him over the head from behind. And he says, thank you, 01:09:09.299 --> 01:09:15.500 my brother and the episode or that part of the episode ends in the next episode a completely 01:09:15.960 --> 01:09:24.740 different actor is got him pinned and he refers obliquely to his off-screen brother who we never 01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:30.819 see do you think there was supposed to be two actors here and one of them got the first guy 01:09:30.870 --> 01:09:38.739 got ill and couldn't come in the next week and so they just had to go uh here do this rewrite 01:09:38.759 --> 01:09:45.900 slightly and go because it it's fairly odd that the way they did it i don't i know nothing about 01:09:46.080 --> 01:09:53.060 it i i don't know but it did seem off right it seemed off to me yeah yeah yeah okay more of that 01:09:53.299 --> 01:09:56.380 well the cast in one episode is not the same as the cast in the next episode 01:09:59.300 --> 01:10:05.920 but well yeah i mean that that is definitely the case and it's true it seems unnecessary but 01:10:06.240 --> 01:10:13.240 from an animation point of view if they had unless unless the unless david whitaker had 01:10:13.420 --> 01:10:17.880 written it as a single character which i guess is maybe what you're suggesting the original intent 01:10:18.220 --> 01:10:23.940 might have been but he had no because character to bash ian so right if you'd have had the two 01:10:24.160 --> 01:10:28.720 brothers and both of them had appeared in you know end of episode three and through episode four 01:10:29.320 --> 01:10:35.100 still have given the animators two characters who they had to animate so i was thinking that what 01:10:35.120 --> 01:10:43.160 they did was they didn't want to pay actor two to be in episode three for half a second and then 01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:48.660 they were going to have the two brothers in episode two and then the guy that we already 01:10:48.840 --> 01:10:54.940 saw on camera had to bow out for some reason so they i guess maybe used the guy that was 01:10:55.100 --> 01:11:00.140 going to be his brother after all and just made him the only one and he goes oh yeah my brother 01:11:00.160 --> 01:11:01.720 off stealing horses or something. 01:11:03.500 --> 01:11:06.100 It's just odd. 01:11:06.820 --> 01:11:12.020 I perhaps should go look and see if there is any tale of that 01:11:12.540 --> 01:11:14.080 from the production side. 01:11:14.300 --> 01:11:15.980 But anyway, do you have anything else? 01:11:16.320 --> 01:11:17.180 I think we've... 01:11:17.180 --> 01:11:17.880 I do not. 01:11:18.440 --> 01:11:22.100 And there is no hint or announcement of any kind 01:11:22.620 --> 01:11:27.540 of any future Blu-ray box sets from the early years 01:11:27.680 --> 01:11:28.700 that have missing episodes. 01:11:28.780 --> 01:11:32.180 I, you know, I, well, we know we, we know we're going to get them, 01:11:32.360 --> 01:11:34.540 but we don't know what order we're getting them in. 01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:38.520 So it's hard to speculate when they think it worries the heck out of me that 01:11:38.600 --> 01:11:39.620 they're going to go in and, 01:11:40.080 --> 01:11:42.940 and put out one of the seasons where they've put together most of our, 01:11:43.120 --> 01:11:47.740 all of the Troutons with animations and they're going to release the box set 01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:51.020 without the animations and they're going to make telesnap recreations. 01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:54.420 I can, at this point, I can totally see them doing that. 01:11:54.780 --> 01:11:56.320 I go, Oh no, no, you're going to buy those separately. 01:11:56.780 --> 01:11:58.380 Oh, I hope not. But, 01:11:58.860 --> 01:12:01.920 No, it would make sense for them to do it the way you envision it. 01:12:02.640 --> 01:12:04.780 And therefore, I have this. 01:12:05.160 --> 01:12:16.020 But it would be completely inconsistent with everything they've done, where they have essentially used all the available material relating to any particular season in the release of it. 01:12:16.220 --> 01:12:31.680 I mean, in some ways, I think the thing that they might struggle with is when they come to release some of those Troughton seasons where we've had kind of three disc releases of certain serials. 01:12:32.300 --> 01:12:38.020 Because we've got a color version, we've got a black and white version, and we've got the set of recons. 01:12:38.680 --> 01:12:39.380 They'll do the recons. 01:12:39.660 --> 01:12:46.500 They won't be able to put all of that into a box 01:12:47.180 --> 01:12:50.380 that only has sort of seven or eight discs 01:12:50.480 --> 01:12:52.980 or whatever we've had in the boxes so far. 01:12:53.800 --> 01:12:57.440 So their choice will then be either make it into a much bigger, 01:12:57.500 --> 01:13:02.820 more expensive set, or say we'll only put the colour animation in, 01:13:03.380 --> 01:13:04.740 if that's what they see as the colours. 01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:05.800 It'll be a recons. 01:13:06.800 --> 01:13:07.780 It won't be the recons. 01:13:09.780 --> 01:13:15.400 they'll throw in the existing episodes and the the telesnap episodes because that is the 01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:22.800 what they've got no i don't i don't think it will i think i think if anything it's more likely they 01:13:22.800 --> 01:13:29.360 will try and include everything that's out there so that would be the animated color and black and 01:13:29.480 --> 01:13:36.740 white versions plus the recons for the ones that are missing but i do think that it's hard to see 01:13:36.760 --> 01:13:44.520 how they can actually do that so i think they they might end up having to say some of that bonus 01:13:44.820 --> 01:13:51.080 material on the animations isn't going to be included and it would be the first time that 01:13:51.240 --> 01:13:56.360 they would have not included something that had been previously released when putting together 01:13:56.420 --> 01:14:02.020 one of these sets but there's just been so much material you know the these releases of the 01:14:02.040 --> 01:14:09.020 animations have been so complete so comprehensive that it it makes it difficult when you're when 01:14:09.120 --> 01:14:15.620 you're putting it together as part of a full season anthology yes we'll see we'll see i think 01:14:15.720 --> 01:14:25.040 we've still got a few uh not missing seasons from latter doctors uh to still be done so i suspect 01:14:25.080 --> 01:14:31.420 it'll be a while before we get to another heart or trout and box set but i could be wrong they 01:14:31.440 --> 01:14:38.900 might throw one trout out there just to see how it goes all right well uh therefore we don't know 01:14:39.000 --> 01:14:43.140 what would be next whenever we get around to talking about another doctor who episode which 01:14:43.150 --> 01:14:49.220 was ultimately my point is that yeah we might you never can tell who knows well i think the next 01:14:49.440 --> 01:14:56.400 doctor who episode we'll be talking about is likely to be the 60th specials um because i don't think 01:14:56.420 --> 01:14:59.520 we're going to get a Troughton or Hartnell, 01:15:00.060 --> 01:15:03.660 another Hartnell set before November 2023. 01:15:04.680 --> 01:15:06.980 I think that's a fair bet. 01:15:07.360 --> 01:15:09.660 They would have announced by then, wouldn't they? 01:15:10.080 --> 01:15:11.420 Well, they haven't announced anything, right? 01:15:11.560 --> 01:15:13.780 There aren't any other box sets announced at this point. 01:15:14.380 --> 01:15:18.620 No, they used to announce the subsequent box set 01:15:18.900 --> 01:15:21.780 before the currently announced one got released. 01:15:22.100 --> 01:15:24.840 So it felt kind of almost... 01:15:25.800 --> 01:15:31.900 what's the blu-ray release equivalent of chain smoking it felt like whatever that would be 01:15:32.460 --> 01:15:36.720 and it's i think they have slowed down slightly they were getting at least three of them out a 01:15:36.720 --> 01:15:43.900 year and it seems to be down to about two but i mustn't complain because i do think that the 01:15:44.130 --> 01:15:48.860 you know the as i've said these sets are incredibly comprehensive they pull together all the materials 01:15:48.940 --> 01:15:57.040 from all previous VHS and DVD and some case, you know, CD audio stuff, everything related to the 01:15:57.250 --> 01:16:03.540 season. It's an incredibly comprehensive set of stories and they look fantastic in all respects. 01:16:04.460 --> 01:16:10.500 So it really is an amazing series. Well, Simon, thank you for joining me. 01:16:11.120 --> 01:16:11.960 It's a pleasure as always. 01:16:12.920 --> 01:16:16.520 Listeners, I hope you'll join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol. 01:16:16.680 --> 01:16:16.740 all. 01:16:18.780 --> 01:16:20.120 You've been listening to Fusion Patrol. 01:16:20.580 --> 01:16:22.480 Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this 01:16:22.660 --> 01:16:24.580 episode, we hope you'll consider supporting us at 01:16:24.740 --> 01:16:26.700 buymeacoffee.com slash Fusion Patrol 01:16:27.080 --> 01:16:28.380 or patreon.com 01:16:28.700 --> 01:16:29.340 slash Fusion Patrol. 01:16:30.500 --> 01:16:32.100 For our monthly Patreon subscribers, 01:16:32.470 --> 01:16:34.100 we're currently running a special series 01:16:34.460 --> 01:16:35.160 on Babylon 5. 01:16:36.580 --> 01:16:38.500 Come join the conversation in the comments section 01:16:38.500 --> 01:16:40.720 of this episode at fusionpatrol.com. 01:16:41.420 --> 01:16:42.520 You'll also find there over 01:16:42.590 --> 01:16:44.260 a decade of past episodes. 01:16:45.300 --> 01:16:49.260 You can find some of our other works at soundcloud.com slash fusion patrol. 01:16:51.060 --> 01:16:53.500 Our music is fight the future by Amber Wolf. 01:16:54.840 --> 01:16:56.580 This has been a lone locust production. 01:16:58.960 --> 01:17:03.020 Next time Caravaggio is damaged and Percy replaces him with Kate, 01:17:03.330 --> 01:17:05.280 the crew's new holographic pal. 01:17:05.440 --> 01:17:08.480 That's fun to play with designed by Percy. 01:17:09.000 --> 01:17:10.800 What could possibly go wrong? 01:17:11.360 --> 01:17:14.140 Find out when we look at the star Hunter Redux episode, 01:17:14.460 --> 01:17:17.620 Kate, come join the conversation on Fusion Patrol.