you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast
each week we take a single episode of a science fiction tv series or movie
and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life welcome to the discussion
hello and welcome to another episode of fusion patrol i'm eugene and i'm simon and tonight we're
looking at the 2022 doctor who easter special legend of the sea devils episode synopsis the
year is 1807 and the infamous pirate zeni sao is assaulting a statue of a sea devil over the
protestations of one of the locals the statue of zeni sao is being attacked by a sea devil
statue cracks and out pops a sea devil killing the local the doctor and the gang arrive possibly
searching for the lost 16th century portuguese ship the fleur de l'amant or if not dan is
remarkably well versed on the subject nonetheless they are in the wrong place at the wrong time
sort of they meet zeni sao aka madame ching and the sea devil with a sword the sea devil
has killed mostly everyone in town and quickly escapes the doctor's simplistic
trap escaping with a mighty hop and a leap onto a flying 16th century portuguese ship
madame ching leaves she got what she was looking for the location of the wreck of the fleur de l'amant
dan wanders off following the son of the slain local as they try to board ching ship the task
seems unusually easy because the vessel operates on complete covid restrictions and there's no crew
whatsoever unconcerned about dan the doctor and yaz also wander off although they wonder
off in the tardis heading back two centuries to 1511 trying to locate the wreck of the fleur de l'amant
they witnessed the dread pirate ji hun throwing his crew overboard and pledging his loyalty to
the sea devil only to be betrayed by it knowing where the ship was scuttled they head back to 1807
at the bottom of the sea to find it before madame ching it's not there but the tardis
is swallowed by the hua sheng an improbable sea beastie controlled by the sea devils
on madame ching's ship dan and the boy are rapidly captured because they're rubbish and hiding the boy
wants to kill the pirate the pirate wants to get the treasure of the fleur de l'amant to pay ransom
to get her sons and crew back dan and the boy agree to crew her ship rather than be killed
trapped in the sea devil's underwater base the doctor tries to bluff that she has the keystone
which is a thingy that the sea devil needs to flip the poles melt the ice caps and make the world all
wet and wonderful again the sea devil is not a sea devil he's a pirate and he's a pirate and he's a pirate
the sea devil has also inexplicably kept ji hun alive for the last two centuries and converted
the fleur de l'amant into his flying ship of course says the doctor having just apparently
come out of having a lobotomy and not realized that was the ship they were looking for they
rescued ji hun and escaped to madame ching's ship there's some pirate fighting on the high seas dan
slaughters multiple sea devils without a moment's hesitation or introspection the doctor rigs up a
little but it requires a sacrifice to make it work ji hun stays behind to hold the wires together and
they all escape back in the 21st century dan calls di and she wants to get together no doubt just
before she reveals that she is a world-threatening menace intent on killing the doctor or something
the doctor dumps yes hard with the old chestnut it's not you it's me but hey we can keep on having
fun right the end all right uh how soon till we can talk about the end of the world we'll see
about the trailer uh no sorry
so legend of the sea devils what what did you think we had to watch 47 minutes of this before
we got to watch the trailer um yeah legend of the sea devils i i just you know warning for listeners
there will be during the course of this episode uh some totally contradictory statements from
i thought you're gonna say swearing
i've been thinking about if i'm going to bleep myself or whether i'm going to try to censor
myself in advance but okay well well you've got to do the bleeping so i think it's fair
fair for you to do some swearing but it would be be rude of me um to give you the work
uh so i will for that reason i will restrain no i uh this is this is an odd one um i didn't
like it and the problem i have with it is that
it just felt like plot plot plot plot plot and then i thought about the plot and i thought
i don't think there's anything wrong with this plot you know it's a reasonable plot and the
problem is all there in the realization of it the pacing is extremely rushed it's very short for a
special um and it just seems to lurch from from one piece of plot to the next without there being
any real kind of chance for there to be any character change or anything like that and i
characterization um you know with the with the kind of guest cast and i wondered about that and
i thought oh yeah maybe it's maybe this is a deliberate thing the pacing has to be there for
them to avoid having the conversation between the doctor and yaz except they didn't avoid having the
conversation between the doctor and yaz so maybe that wasn't it maybe that's just the maybe that's
they feel like they they need to keep things rattling along to keep the the audience entertained
but i'm not i don't know i felt like we could have done with a bit more introduction to these
characters a bit more setting the scene and actually motivating the kind of the the twists
and the sudden shifts in time and place uh-huh i i feel like there were scenes that just completely
cut out of this it just yeah as you say it lurches i mean the the scene where dan and the boy are on
the shore and the boy says i'm going out there and dan says how are you going to get there i'm
going to swim they told me not to wander off and then next shot the doctor and yaz are running into
the tardis and they're leaving dan behind well i told him not to wander off well how did they how
did they know he'd wandered off they didn't wandered off exactly looking
and i get i get that that could be a very boring scene but the you know surely surely the point is
you use that pretext for some other aspect of the story that could have been that could have been a
chance to kind of establish where we're at in the in the yaz doctor thing or it could have been i i
i i felt like i mean you you've got an a doctor who maybe doesn't have a great track record on
pirate stories but you've got a pirate story here you've got a pirate story here you've got a pirate story
you've got a pirate who i know nothing about i wanted more information about madame ching
well you've got nothing there yeah i mean i i didn't i wasn't impressed by crystal you but i
don't i i thought the direction of this episode was pretty dreadful generally so it may be that
was the reason why i didn't think she was very good but it it it felt like there were a lot of
kind of very predictable posed shots and
and uh reveals and yeah again a lot of her her performance that it was it was big on the
swashbuckling but pretty low on the characterization yeah yeah i mean so on to the for the moment for
that pacing but i definitely want to talk about madame ching for quite a bit more parts i alluded
to it in my recap it feels like dan knows all about the flor de lamar
is this a famous thing is this famous like the marie celeste and i've just never heard of it
before it's real it's legit it might it might be but i i've not heard of it either so
so when he pops when they make some mention of it then suddenly dan just rattles off
what it is i'm like oh they're here to find that or maybe this is just more of my dan is
ridiculously suspicious character and he is definitely going to cause some major problems
next time but says that and then you know as you as you point out they still did do the dr
yasmin thing and i think looking back on it some of the complaints i've had not just that in
particular but chibnall can't do this he is not deft enough to shift gears from action to
introspective we're going to have a little talk he does it at the wrong time and he's not going to
it just it jars it's like throwing your car in the wrong gear it just really and he's done it
before i've complained about it in the eve of the daleks and i'm sure i've complained complained
about it before he just breaks down ah we're all gonna die by the way i've been feeling a little
bit emotional about i should you know like why are you doing this now shut up and survive then
worry about it and
i i mean i i agree i think it's done very badly here and i i think that the the kind of the issue
may arise from the fact that this is something that steven moffat does really incredibly well
he can just shift gears between comedy and action and those those kind of
quiet more intimate moments and or i mean it's not even shifting sometimes weaving them it's
weaving them together and right it sets an expectation for the show because i i think
we've got to acknowledge the kind of he he was showrunner for six seasons and that has an impact
on the expectations of of what you do and chibnall's first season i do think was quite effective in
kind of drawing a line saying yeah no we're we're doing some all that kind of convoluted
backstories falling away all those returning villains
we're not having any of that it's a new a completely new set of characters a completely
new set of stories and so your expectations are some to some degree reset the problem i think is
where you get stories where he tries to do what you know what you what you describe which is
something that the show has done well in the past it's very difficult to match because
steven moffat is just that that is a very difficult thing to do and i think that's a very difficult
thing to do and i think that's a very difficult thing to do and i think that's a very difficult thing to do and that's what i think is his particular thing so you would not expect many writers to be able to do that and the ideal thing would be for them to play to their strengths rather than trying to conform to a template that someone else has set yeah you know looking back on the first season uh the the the emotional beats were largely to do with uh ryan and and graham graham there we go and they were done at better times
for example the when they were on the the ghost planet or they're looking for the ghost monument
yeah they would have those moments when they were on the boat sailing down the river to the next
destination the audience knows there's a lull while they have to make that transit and we don't follow
the whole transit but we get the opportunity to see that during that time they can have this
conversation it it's a good point it's a good down point where they can all stop
and reassess what's going on and say what's on their mind without it seeming like the world is
blowing up and there's anything we should be doing instead of having this conversation
and other cases have been when they were walking through forests or you know investigating something
but not in the pressing emergency situations yes and that they're not getting that now because
there is nothing but pressing emergency from the moment this episode goes right we
arrive a sea devil is killing people yeah all right let's talk about uh tani sao or madam
ching um she is a very famous pirate i couldn't have told you her name uh prior to this my wife
couldn't have told you her name i asked her name name famous chinese pirates and
she was just like uh nope but she looked them up online uh in chinese and uh you know
i rattled off a few and i'm like it doesn't sound like madam ching which is what they kept calling
her um she has several names senisao is the main one that is referred to but it's it her name also
means something like widow of of pirate ching she she's the widowed wife and then took over
but she she is uh infamous or famous for her treatment of her crews and their captive
captives and you know they didn't they didn't interfere with women they didn't uh you know
they didn't keep booty for themselves it all went into a pot and it got shared out evenly
uh very harsh she set up many of the codes of standards that you would hear about for pirates
this is her she was very uh effective at it and ultimately got a pardon and you know as
pirates often do because they're really kind of you know helping out the gov and um none of that is
in evidence here at all no no no and it is strange because ji hun was a real one too but he is not
that's just made up and and this and the strange thing is that you get you get this interesting
character and it's more unusual to have a woman pirate at least I I yeah certainly more unusual to
have the story told of a woman pirate there's all this kind of criticism about how you know Dr who
is politically correct and yada yada but actually this story sidelines her in favor of the made-up
male pirate well I would be much more interested in hearing about her it's it's it's very odd yeah
I mean he when they meet up he basically says you woman that in those words fetch the treasure
yes she does I mean yes she wants and I expected there to be some comment about that and then there was not
a lot no and he he he's the one who gets the kind of heroic Redemption arc and and I don't I don't
get a sense at all of what she was like in terms of you know her how you obviously get a bit of a
story because she's obviously you know there's the kick-ass fighting bit which you get from the
very beginning and then obviously the kind of threatening people and
and there's a there's a slight hint particularly in her relationship with the young boy and even the
way she looks at his father when the sea devil exploding has killed him that or you know of
there being some compassion or whatever but I also kind of wanted to know when the chips are down how
is how is she going to operate because there's only kind of so far you can go as a pirate in the direction
of being compassionate without kind of taking the edge off your your effectiveness as a as a private
area yeah as as as as someone because you because it's your reputation isn't it if you if you if you
want to be able to overpower people without actually just basically having to massacre
everyone you have to convince them you're willing to massacre everyone and would she be I don't know
she was she was a very effective pirate but
in in real life and but again yeah nothing here this is this is worse than what they did to Mary
Seacole who was really only there for to have Mary Seacole there look at this fascinating person in
history now remember when you go to school Monday ask your librarian to learn more I mean they should
have that at the end of these well I'll agree with anything about him in this episode yeah I'll
definitely agree it was worse than Mary Seacole I felt I learned something about Mary Seacole from
the um
um from the Crimea episode I got a little bit she was she you know I learned she existed and that
she was you know uh doing this herself out of let's call it kindness but whatever her motivations
were whether it was deeply religious or deeply deeply humanitarian or you know I I got that so
there is like this character and we got what she does she's there at the front she's set up a hospital
yeah we got that but that really had nothing to do with how she was used in the story which was just
basically to follow around the doctor and take notes but you know in the pirate story Adam
ching wow you're amazing you're the pirate that did pirated stuff and wow big fan and
okay she's a pirate that's all we got out of this one I I don't I don't have no problem with I you
know this is a legitimate real historical finger that could be interesting and should be woven into
the story in a way that we better understand that person I I could make I could I could make the case
for you know pure historicals again at this point but I've done it so many times it is a little bit
hard for them to weave I'm gonna say you know it is a little hard for them to weave a sci-fi story in
and not of course you know how hard was it in Rosa you just pop an alien from the future future Nazi
who wants to cause problems well well yeah I I mean I don't know I I was tempted to go back and
watch the curse of black spot to to because that that felt like in a very strong season that felt
like a not the strongest episode I don't know how it compared to this because my recollection is I
enjoyed it more than I enjoyed this one but I suspect that my issue again was you don't need
the sci-fi element if you're if you're you know if you're doing a pirate genre with swashbuckling
and everything and particularly in this one where you're where you're doing a true story you don't
need the sci-fi element so right that was that was a part of the issue with this I think the other
part of it was that you don't need the sci-fi element because you don't need the sci-fi element
was the sea devil issue and again you know I'm not going to harp on about things I've hopped on
about before but I don't need returning monsters the problem with returning monsters is always
you're going to do a returning monster story you're either going to do a remake of a story
you've told before which isn't necessarily a bad thing if you do a good remake or you're
going to have to twist the monster so that it does something novel but then it kind of
dilutes the the original kind of unique interesting nature of the monster in the first place and
you're going to spend you know certain amount of time explaining why sea devils have ships
or whatever it is or you have a story that actually is developed without the monster in
mind and then you sort of crowbar the monster in because you oh you could put sea devils in
this story which I believe is what they did in in this case I guess but it doesn't that's not what I'm saying
it doesn't yeah it doesn't feel like it fits to me it does it feels like there's an too much time is
spent explaining why sea devils are not behaving like sea devils because they're not quite the
monster that was originally envisioned for this story and there haven't been enough rewrites and
I don't I don't I suspect there could not be enough rewrites to kind of make it into a a coherent this
is actually advancing the sea devil story as well as telling the store the story the pirate story
and do it all in 47 minutes let me say about the sea devils because I have a fun spot for the sea
devils and silurians until they've ruined the silurians but um arguably in Warriors of the Deep
but certainly in in cold blood or whatever it is um by Christian the story that yeah yeah go figure
the story of the sea devils and the silurians let's call them sea devils for the sake of this argument
has the the notion that all over the world clusters of sea devils went into hibernation and
they do not know what has happened so as each small cluster wakes up you could tell a different story
about how they go about that reawakening now I think it's probably safe to say that there's an
overwhelming uh
racial hatred against apes and mammals and whatnot so that's a baseline for there and we did see in
Chibnall's to his fair you know some of the sea devil or some of the silurians were not actually
uh they could be convinced to live as as was in the original but they do have to have a a
relatively coherent so you could have a lot of little different sea devil stories is what I'm
getting at and they could be different but they could be on the same pattern
or
they could surprise us and the next time it happens it's not like the Daleks where they
should have learned from their previous mistake the next time a cluster of sea devils opens up
they wouldn't know what happened to the others so the cycle could I think eat itself but it could
repeat itself and I I don't necessarily mind it repeating itself as long as they do it well you
know I don't mind seeing the same story twice I'm upset that the sea devils are obviously uh in this
one planning on
on wiping out all the silurians because there would obviously they must be land parasites too
they're not aquatic and they're gonna turn the world all back to the way it was it's like the
world wasn't actually like that so yeah yeah it right it feels like they didn't think about the
sea devils much they did a beautiful beautiful job of recreating them but they did well you know
that's not enough yeah I mean they
visually visually visually they look good the way they talk slightly annoyed me but whatever
what they failed to recreate I think was that incredible sense of and and this is kind of what
I mean about if you if you revisit it you are you are I think you've encapsulated what the sea devil
story is and I feel like you should stick to it because it's it's good even if it means kind of
retelling the same story but it does have to do with as you say
a small group of the uh a small colony waking waking up and the danger being entirely from
what if they were to reactivate other colonies and you know create this massive kind of global
overthrow of the uh of the human race and there's an interesting role there for the
doctor's play brokering a piece that obviously has very relevant parallel
parallels but it also has to do with you know just when it does come down to the design and
really behavior of the monsters it has to it has to do with their kind of power and strength and
that comes from their kind of that that comes from their strangeness their I was going to say
unworldliness but obviously they are actually terrestrial very worldly yes it what it doesn't
come from is a
a big glowing blue sword that just hacks everyone to pieces and is poisons completely poisonous at
the slightest touch because here's the issue anyone with a blue glowing sword that poisons
people at the slightest touch is incredibly powerful guess what it's the sword that is
the threat not well the the monster wielding it so you know it just dilutes that that kind of
interesting aspect of of what these monsters are I think it was very nice of the sea devils I mean I
think they were being very considerate to the humans that here is an advanced technological
race that is far in advance of us we know that when they went into hibernation they had ray guns
and all sorts of cool technology but when they come out and they encounter a bunch of Savage Apes
with swords they go hey swords huh yeah I'm not sure if you're going to be able to get them out of the
woods huh let's do our so let's make some swords put the guns back in the Arsenal that would be what
unfair uh confuse them violate the prime directive who knows what but let's have swords glowing blue
swords that annoyed me more about anything than the swords but but you're right it's also the power
that it gives them it it was they were trying to make an equalizer there in the story and yeah by
it just it's ill-advised it's ill-advised
let let me I put my case but before but I'll I'll say it again let's briefly say that something is
wrong with Dan there is just something off about Dan I like Dan which surprises the heck out of me
considering uh you know but I I like Dan but every once in a while he just pulls something he's too
blase about the bizarre when he started out he you know we've mentioned this several times over the
course of the flux
he what was this scene where the doctor says you know here's the sword use it only as a last resort
he doesn't even wait for the last resort he just literally kills them all with it instantly it's
like he knew all about the Florida Lamar now if if indeed they had been looking for it which it's not
completely clear that that's what they were looking for then you know maybe they'd had a little
briefing in the TARDIS console room beforehand but without it it seems like Dan just has this pop out
of the top of his head and it comes off as strange and I just go and the doctor doesn't seem to notice
that it's weird and that bothers me you know there should at least yeah you know like when when Amy
would you can go back and look at some of the stuff where Amy was a a doppelganger was that what
it was um there were a couple times the doctor does stuff and he's like hmm looks at the scanner and
looks at the thing looks at Amy it's like hmm like he knows something's off we get nothing of that
with this doctor there is there is no indication she notices that that something is odd with Dan
there's just absolutely ludicrously ridiculously irritating to me that they keep talking about the
Florida Lamar and it's not until the sea devil actually spells it out that the doctor clocks on
oh that flying ship 1616.
center Portuguese ship that we saw earlier oh now it all makes sense oh my goodness I thought everyone
in the audience was screaming at that point I I didn't even realize the doctor didn't realize it
until that point and then I was like wow this one's dim as a post oh she doesn't recognize that Dan is
wrong wrong wrong she doesn't spot that and I don't think she had enough interactions with die to realize
that die is wrong
that whole bit where she was trapped in another world and she's the one that figured out how to
escape and the timing and all that stuff might have been shorthand but it sure feels like there's
far more than a human intelligence operating in that in that head and the fact that they pull
that at the end of this one where she's like yeah it's nice thinking about you it's like yeah this
is this is the end game this is the end game and it starts with die somehow but I just I don't know
I don't know I don't know I I mean I think you I think you do make a case and it could be bad
writing it could be it could be a series of mistakes or it could be it could be something
that is deliberately laid but the problem I've got at this stage is I don't really care about
Dan I kind of liked him all the way through flux and he worked in the Christmas special
but he just has become a bit of a spare part I think maybe because he doesn't have enough
interaction maybe because they don't have enough discussion about what they're doing or why gotta
keep the actors apart well yeah perhaps but both he and die because I mean with with die you had
that kind of what again also felt very contrived at the end of at the end of flux oh you know yeah
I'm too pissed off about having been trapped inside the passenger and yada yada yada so that's
why we can't be together and now suddenly it feels like and now this is suddenly contrived to to give
Dan an exit because clearly we're we're well I say clearly I'm I'm working on the assumption
that we are going to see our regular cast leave at the same time as Chibnall and so
Dan needs Dan needs some kind of closure in the in the in the final episode and this is a way of
setting that up a bit so it doesn't feel like suddenly oh bam dies back now they're going to
live happily ever after yeah and yes obviously has to sacrifice her life for the doctor that's
the only way that's going to work out but I I have no idea I have no idea what is going to happen to
to Yaz um this I don't know what happened in this episode either to be honest yeah and the the
problem I think partly comes down to I don't I understand because we've we've we've kind of had
this built up to a degree Yaz is Yaz's kind of growing devotion to the doctor she you know that
that that has developed over the course of the what three seasons yeah three seasons that it's
been now but despite that at this stage I don't know what she wants what she what does she want
from the doctor does she just so I mean there are various possibilities right she's in she's
deeply in love with the doctor that is clear does she just want to have some kind of commitment that
she can stay with the doctor forever or does she want the doctor to stay with her for the rest of her life
or does she want the doctor to stay with her for the rest of her life
does she want the doctor to feel the same way about her or is she after some, you know, degree of intimacy with the doctor?
It's not clear to me what she is looking for, and therefore it's not clear to me what the doctor is saying I can't give you.
And that's also a problem because the reasons the doctor gives for sort of say, do we believe the doctor?
That's, you know, that's the other side of this puzzle, because she she goes into the speech, says Yaz is one of the greatest people she's ever known.
I don't buy that. Well, I mean, first of all, Yaz clearly isn't one of the greatest people she's ever known.
But that doesn't mean the doctor couldn't feel that Yaz is one of the greatest people she's ever known if she's reciprocating those feelings.
But I don't even know if she is because I it could be.
That this is just some BS to basically make Yaz feel better.
It's it's not it's not you. It's me. I mean, come on.
That is that is that is all. But is it a lie?
Isn't that always a lie? I mean, that is the if not in reality, then at least in the in the zeitgeist.
When when somebody breaks up and says it's not.
You it's me. They mean, it's you. You know, they're just trying to be nice.
And I thought, wow, that is cold, doctor.
Here's the reason that I don't think it's true.
But I don't know whether this is because I don't know whether my reading of the doctor differs from Chibnall's reading of the doctor.
But the doctor says that she can't become attached to people or places because of reasons.
But she is.
She is incredibly attached to the earth.
And this and there's something else about the doctor.
And again, there's this kind of suggestion which kind of harks back to the to the school reunion stuff about how, you know, humans are their lifespan is a blink of blink of the eye to the doctor.
They you know, they just kind of they're ephemeral to her.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
In essence, which, you know, I'm not quite sure whether I I totally agree with.
I get it.
Because, you know, thousands of years versus barely 100.
So the doctor is essentially saying I can't become attached to a human because then the human dies and then I then I'm really upset about that.
So I've got to protect myself by not getting attached to someone who lives for that little amount of time.
Again, it feels to me like it is intrinsic to the doctor's character that she just she lives in the moment.
She plunges into whatever situation.
She finds herself in.
She cares passionately about the people around her and she doesn't hold back.
She doesn't hold back, in my opinion.
And so I think about, you know, the Madame Pompadour episode or whatever.
And I just think that feels much more like the character of the doctor.
I think about all all the kind of the the episodes where Tom Baker's doctor is just so impulsive in going in and, you know, help.
Helping people out and giving whatever they need, just giving them whatever they need.
That that feels to me like the doctor that I know.
And so in a sense, why what I feel like the doctor can't give Yaz is actually to do with.
She's not a monogamist.
Right.
To because to do that for one person is it's it's exclusive.
That's the you know, essentially what it's about.
And that may be what Yaz is wanting.
That kind of exclusive.
Yeah.
Exclusivity.
And if that were it, I could totally get it.
The doctor can't be exclusive because she doesn't just love one person and one person who's going to disappear in a minute.
It's like if anyone if another if another planet came and asked her to give up whatever or another person or she she wouldn't she wouldn't be able to refuse them.
She wouldn't be able to say, you know, no, I I can't do that because that would mean.
Leaving Yaz or so I I don't feel like the reading of the doctor in this.
If the doctor is telling the truth is the character that I know.
Yeah, it is.
It is very hard to it is very hard to swallow that the doctor is telling the truth when they use a line like you're the best person I know even better than my wife.
You know, it's like, wow.
OK, that's a that's a hell of a weird line.
And, you know, we know.
Well,
I'm saying the door was better.
I'm married.
Yeah, that, too.
So I come back.
You mentioned Yaz wanting intimacy and we should draw a line here.
There are two kinds of intimacy, physical and emotional.
And we have seen Yaz desperately, desperately trying to get emotional intimacy from the doctor.
Every time the doctor keeps a secret, Yaz gets all pissy.
Frankly, and that is not a good look, but for Yaz.
But at the same time, it does give us the hint that we are talking.
At least that is one of the things she wants.
That is that is the emotional.
But if at the same time, wouldn't she then be, frankly, jealous of Dan being aboard the TARDIS?
Well, I think I think your premise that we've seen none of that.
I mean, she's best pals with them.
Yes, they've spent more time together than the doctor.
And yes, but still, it is.
Yeah, it's I think I think I don't I don't I think that's less important because the because the doctor isn't showing Dan any more affection than she is showing.
Yes.
So I'm not sure there is anything to be jealous of there.
I just I think the difficulty from the doctor's point of view would be that if if, you know, if they were both in.
Danger and she could only save one.
I'm not sure the doctor would choose or I'm not sure she would choose.
Yes, right.
I I'm not sure she would either.
I could say that I saw something that I cannot I did not see the words come out of and appeals out.
So it's it's apocryphal.
It's third hand, however you want to go about it.
But there was there is something floating around that's being attributed.
This is Man of Gil didn't actually know about this love story until Eve of the Daleks script.
And I have been trying to go.
How is that possible?
Given all of the, you know, unless Man of Gil was interpreting it as as worship.
What would the doctor do?
That's more of a that's more of a what's my God doing?
How can I best live up to the but, you know, the scenes about let us in.
Tell us what your secret you're keeping all that stuff.
It just doesn't how she could not have seen that going all the way back to.
A dinner scene with her family where her mom basically calls her out on it.
Says, are you dating this doctor or something like that?
I mean, it was it was like, wow, OK, they pegged that all the way back in season one.
They've been laying that groundwork.
I don't see how it could be oblivious of that.
But no, I mean, I I agree.
But I think I think, you know, there there has been it has been left open to interpretation.
There's a degree of ambiguity.
About it.
The problem is at this point, I think you've got to do you've got to because because the story is moving towards some kind of closure.
You you can't you can't keep saying this is both one thing and another.
And yet they never they never.
Like I say, my issue is they never really spell out what the characters want.
And even at the end, the doctor's saying, I wish this could go on forever.
Yeah, we're just friends, which is obviously this point as a setup.
For.
For it not to go on forever and for it all to end.
But the issue is that what does this mean?
What does this mean?
What does the doctor understand by this?
What is it she wants to go on forever?
That's a darn good question.
I do think the part of what the doctor is doing here in the let's try to be kind here.
Let's let's say that this is not the doctor dumping Yaz in the way that every every every cliche ever existed.
Let's say this is the doctor going, oh, yeah, I'm about to die.
I have a I have a terminal disease.
I know I'm going to die soon.
I am not.
And I'm or regenerate at the very least.
And I am not going to be the person that Yaz is in love with.
Therefore, it's it's not you.
It's me.
It literally could mean that because I think that's you know, we're supposed to have that pretentious look at the future.
But it.
It's not you.
It's me.
It literally could mean that because I think that's you know, we're supposed to have that pretentious look at the future.
But it.
It's not you.
It's me.
It's not you.
Have we had anything like that?
Yeah, we had it.
Where?
The the the the the the thing in the flux told the doctor that that it was all over.
All right.
At the end of the last episode.
So it was in the trailer that the same line was from time that the beware the forces and the master that marshals them or something like that.
Your time is coming to an end.
And we got the same silly thing we got from me or from the Easter special.
They'll not three.
Times or four times or whatever it was.
And yeah, we we've got that.
We've had that.
It's been clunkily plopped down in the story.
So the doctor could literally be doing that.
And so then they're saying, I wish things could go on like this forever.
Could be trying to look at David Tennant's.
The Ood are telling me my songs coming.
I don't want to go victory laps and whatnot that he did that.
He's just trying to hang on as long as he can.
But, you know, fair enough.
But if it.
If it is, I guess that makes some sort of sense.
Although it doesn't feel like it has been.
It doesn't.
It doesn't feel like the groundwork is there for that.
But since the doctor hasn't told Yaz and is keeping that intimate secret to herself from Yaz's perspective, this has to look like a dump.
Yeah.
I mean, it doesn't feel it doesn't feel like the groundwork has been done for that.
Also, I don't like it anyway.
I mean, I didn't I didn't like it with your song is over now.
I didn't.
I didn't like it with trends.
The law.
It just I under I understand they're trying to prepare the audience for letting the doctor go.
But I like I say, the kind of happy go lucky doctor who just dives into things and is willing to sacrifice herself, even at the cost of a of a regeneration is is the the kind of character I feel I'm more familiar with.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's throw just a couple points out there.
The never have we seen an episode that was more obvious that it was shot under covid restrictions.
I mean, the pirate ship is empty.
I thought I was just budget restrictions.
Well, they had a whole bunch of sea devil, but it's got to be like we can't have all these actors on set.
It's got me.
They just it was covid.
You're right.
It was covid restrictions.
I don't see why they couldn't have had a crew who were socially distanced.
Yeah, because it's not like it's not like.
You ever have that many people aboard a ship like that, that they're shoulder to shoulder.
I am not convinced that the dread pirate Ching has got the ability to manage that ship single handedly.
No.
How does she say that?
No, absolutely not.
Impossible.
It's ridiculous.
I thought that the not Mirka, the question, I believe they called it, which is amusing that they had a Chinese sounding name was, you know, in keeping with this, I don't think you get the sea devils.
Because that was just stupid biology.
Six eyes and dumb teeth.
Couldn't they have come up with some actual real sea creature that the sea devils would have had in their arsenal?
But no.
I was hoping they would try to redeem the Mirka.
Well, yes.
Redeem the Mirka.
That's CGI pantomime horse.
Big finishes Mirka box.
Big set.
Yes, that's perfect.
The music.
Did you have any thoughts on the music?
Not especially.
I remember quite enjoying it, but I've now forgotten it.
It's all Chinese sounding.
Yeah.
It's kind of unusual.
As far as I can tell, it was composed by the same.
Yeah.
I was thinking.
I can read that.
But I did get a I'll say.
David, who occasionally does some hosting here on Fusion Patrol, shot me some notes after he watched the episode.
And they weren't complimentary.
But one of them was a complaint that the music was too loud to hear some of the dialogue.
I didn't know that.
That's interesting.
Because we haven't heard that since the sort of early.
Yeah.
Murray Gold.
And yeah.
Interesting.
I will.
Yeah.
It was noticeable.
And I've mentioned not noticing the music throughout the Chibnall era.
So I'll just throw this out there since he gave me two comments.
Here's a quote.
So that was a horrendous episode yesterday.
So there we go.
Thanks, David, for writing in.
So let's see.
Yeah.
I don't know.
In a way, it kind of.
The fact that Doctor was.
Wearing the Chinese outfit.
And.
A little.
Yeah.
I don't know.
That annoyed me a bit.
I have to say.
So felt a little cultural appropriation ish.
But at the same time, it's like, hey, you know, what's the doctor doing with Earth clothes?
Cultural appropriation, I guess.
But well, we know that we know the TARDIS has this massive wardrobe.
So it's not beyond.
It's not beyond the realms of imagination.
There might be something.
And what annoyed me about it is.
Is she'll just go to the, you know, to any any planet, any other place or time on Earth and just, you know, turn up in the same, you know, boots and T-shirt that she normally wears anywhere.
And all her previous incarnations have done most of the time.
Much.
Most of the time.
You're going to say Talons of Wenchang.
Talons of Wenchang.
Yeah.
But you know that at least in that one, you felt it was because of the doctor.
Actually.
I wanted to do to do a bit of dressing up.
Yeah.
If the doctor here had said, oh, you know, I've really I've been really looking forward to an opportunity to wear this outfit.
I might have never been able to fit in this for my last 12 lives.
Yeah.
I have a note here that the CGI was generally dire.
I don't understand why.
I mean, again, because there's me there thinking, oh, they've they've cut back on the extras for budgetary reasons.
I thought they could have saved some money by having that.
It wasn't that the CGI was poorly executed so much as the fact that it was just odd.
It was just odd.
Why?
You know, why?
Why did the cannonballs explode?
Why?
Why did why did the stone skip so badly?
They looked terrible.
I the sea devil jumping in the ship was.
Yeah.
It just didn't like this.
Doesn't it's if you know, if you're going to have the sea devil leap over to the ship, which was ludicrous.
Then.
At least somehow make it not look like a bad effect.
And I.
I would just say you don't you don't have the you don't have all that jumping or you don't have a stupid flying ship and you don't have the.
You compare it with the point of the flying ship.
Yeah.
Well, there was no point to flying.
So there wasn't there was the the cannonballs exploding was ludicrous, but also it was just there to have an explosion.
We don't necessarily need explosions.
And that's where.
I kind of go.
And if you're if you're going to crowbar these returning monsters in, then I'm inevitably going to compare it to.
Well, what about the sea devils where you just don't have all of these special effects because you don't need them?
And it's great story.
And it you know, there is there is partly the space and time for more characterization and dialogue to explain the motivation, which just generally helps in the story.
And I'm not.
I'm not arguing that you need to have.
I can't remember whether the sea devils is four or six parts, but you know, you don't need to have it two or three times as long as the running time of this.
But it does help with the kind of holding back on the special effects with actually trying to make it look as authentic as possible with actually grounding the story.
And to me, that that does that that ties in with all of the kind of.
Why are we doing what we're doing?
It's it's making it feel a little bit more relatable and a little bit less.
This is just like watching a fireworks display.
Yeah, it's this was not great.
This was not great.
There is one thing in this episode that I really, really liked.
And, you know, there's there's the history of the Silurians and the sea devil are absolutely fraught with.
Terrible.
Terrible naming, because to this date, we still don't know what the Silurians or the sea devils call themselves.
I mean, we do not have a clue, but I did love the line when the doctor goes, sea devil.
And the sea devil responds with land parasite.
It's like, fair enough.
Fair enough.
Like sea devil.
Certainly not complimentary, is it?
No, no.
I mean, that was the that was given to them by the crazed sailor on the I think the seafloor.
Fort that they found and like, what happened?
Say, devil, like, you know, and then that name stuck.
And I think they even freaking used it in Warriors of the Deep when the Silurian triumvirate were talking to the commander of the sea devils.
Are your sea devil warriors ready?
Do it's like, really?
Well, well, there's your own.
And we and we already know the Silurians were not from the Silurian.
So, I mean, it's just all it's all.
Wrong.
And I think the Chibnall trying to cover it in in cold butter, whatever the two episodes were, the crying Earth was he called them homo reptilia, which is Latin and therefore just more of us making up names for them instead.
Yeah.
On the other hand, they're speaking English.
So, you know, there is that.
Yeah.
They could take offense.
They could take umbrage of this.
I mean, all of these problems.
I'm not saying I'm not saying you have to resolve them to bring the monsters back.
You don't bring the monsters back.
You just go with a new monster.
I mean, if you need if you need a monster in your sub aquatic story, I think it's fair to say that the Earth's oceans have a enough kind of different species that it's not that improbable that just because you're telling a sub aquatic story.
You happen.
You will inevitably bump into a sea devil.
There could be other stuff down there.
The story they have never done.
And as far as I know, Big Finish have never done it.
The story that I want to see is the doctor arriving on Earth during the reign of the Silurians and helping them out as absolutely nothing to do with the catastrophe that caused them to go underground or anything.
And I think that's a really important thing.
I think that's a really important thing.
Thank you.