WEBVTT 00:00:10.020 --> 00:00:15.920 you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast each week we take a single 00:00:16.090 --> 00:00:21.320 episode of a science fiction tv series or movie and overanalyze it to within an inch 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:24.180 of its life welcome to the discussion 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:37.380 Hello and welcome back to part two of our look at Doctor Who Flux. 00:00:37.580 --> 00:00:37.860 I'm Eugene. 00:00:38.800 --> 00:00:39.340 And I'm Simon. 00:00:39.940 --> 00:00:44.320 And we're back to pick up our conversation right where we left off. 00:00:44.940 --> 00:00:49.000 So let's pick up our conversation right where we left off. 00:00:50.350 --> 00:00:53.240 Of course, you know, the question is, do you destroy the universe? 00:00:53.500 --> 00:00:57.520 How does that actually play out in a story which involves time travel? 00:00:58.060 --> 00:01:02.640 Because obviously the Doctor can go back a thousand years and the rest of the universe is there. 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:05.920 So, well, that was the same with the time war. 00:01:06.360 --> 00:01:11.060 Exactly the same problem with the time war, which is why you got into this whole, you know, time lock. 00:01:11.660 --> 00:01:11.800 Yeah. 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:12.660 Nonsense. 00:01:12.890 --> 00:01:19.440 And it's a problem at first and then you repeat time lock enough times and then you stop thinking about it. 00:01:19.560 --> 00:01:23.700 And you just appreciate the stories that you can tell within that context. 00:01:24.180 --> 00:01:32.500 And I have been thinking about this because I think in some ways the things that Chibnall has done within these stories are not just flux. 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:38.200 It's the timeless children, which I certainly was not keen on when I first heard it. 00:01:38.230 --> 00:01:41.060 And now I'm starting to get more interested in the stories that you can tell. 00:01:41.800 --> 00:01:49.400 I had a similar reaction to the time war and wiping out all of the time lords and this whole lonely doctor thing. 00:01:49.540 --> 00:01:55.260 because I was quite attached to, for all their kind of being incredibly boring, actually, 00:01:55.610 --> 00:02:00.580 the whole Time Lord backstory and the possibility that we might run into them in some future stories. 00:02:01.180 --> 00:02:11.420 But I equally then found that when Moffat started to set things up to revisit that with the War Doctor and so forth, 00:02:11.540 --> 00:02:15.720 having a War Doctor, that was just, that was totally unacceptable. 00:02:16.380 --> 00:02:24.080 And now with all of the kind of John Hurt audios and the day of the doctor and all of that, I'm totally sold on the concept. 00:02:24.440 --> 00:02:31.180 It really adds a lot to the kind of bigger mythos and history of the show. 00:02:31.600 --> 00:02:44.020 And so I'm not necessarily implacably opposed to the idea that you can't make these kind of tectonic shifts in the platform that you're using for your stories. 00:02:44.700 --> 00:02:49.340 And I'm not too bothered about Doctor Who going dark for a while. 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:54.560 So if Chibnall was still around, I would personally prefer there not to be a reset. 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:56.320 I do not like resets myself. 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:10.280 I'm thinking what we have here is probably akin to e-space, a periodic section of time where we're operating in a universe that's not quite the same. 00:03:10.340 --> 00:03:19.300 I know that's the wrong analogy, considering that this is a story about interdimensional operations. 00:03:19.820 --> 00:03:27.700 But in other words, the Doctor can kick around the post-flux universe for a while before coming to the end, 00:03:28.200 --> 00:03:39.420 sacrificing the life and bringing the universe back, which is almost certainly from some sort of sacrifice that will need to be made to do that. 00:03:39.880 --> 00:04:00.140 What do you got? What do you want to look at? I might hit a few character points later, but I mean, just to kind of roll back a little bit, because I'm disagreeing on the fact that I think the story overall did an incredibly effective job of showing the actual consequences of the flux. 00:04:00.660 --> 00:04:03.300 It didn't do, and I think you made this point, 00:04:03.380 --> 00:04:06.240 it didn't do necessarily a great job in showing the consequences 00:04:06.480 --> 00:04:07.320 in the final episode. 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:12.040 So, again, the problem for me were in those particular episodes 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:15.120 and the death of Jericho. 00:04:16.120 --> 00:04:18.380 The death scene is excellent. 00:04:18.640 --> 00:04:23.160 I mean, really, really a great kind of valedictory scene 00:04:23.540 --> 00:04:27.459 for what I think had been one of my favourite characters 00:04:28.160 --> 00:04:33.080 in this series and there were a lot of I thought really good characters in this series 00:04:33.840 --> 00:04:39.140 but if I'd had to have a choice in the I know it started saying I want Carvinista to be the 00:04:39.340 --> 00:04:45.600 doctor's companion but now turns out that he was the doctor's companion and actually I want Jericho 00:04:45.760 --> 00:04:52.599 to travel with the doctor instead of Dan for sure he's great but he does get a top-notch death scene 00:04:52.620 --> 00:05:02.600 you put your finger on it absolutely when you say that there is not enough weight to the fact that 00:05:03.300 --> 00:05:11.400 yaz and dan and jericho have been quite close for what do we what do we think three four years 00:05:11.630 --> 00:05:18.099 four years at least yeah it's at least four years and the impact that has on them is just 00:05:18.620 --> 00:05:24.180 it is underplayed because as you say dan is dan is much closer or dan must be much closer the 00:05:24.180 --> 00:05:27.740 point was you you were making as much closer to jericho than the doctor he's also much closer to 00:05:27.820 --> 00:05:36.020 yaz than the doctor um so he's really you know he's now yes he had a trip in the tardis before 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:43.199 he spent the you know these years with yaz but he's now really yaz's friend rather than 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:49.600 the doctor's companion and he will be for quite some time you know it'll take a bit of journeying 00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:55.260 in the TARDIS for those dynamics to even up I don't think there's any evidence that we're seeing 00:05:55.320 --> 00:06:05.400 that on screen and I have found the whole the way in which Dan is portrayed it's another of those 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:11.739 slightly problematic things his reactions have all felt like they are slightly off it's felt like he 00:06:11.760 --> 00:06:17.440 takes things in his stride slightly too much he bounces back too quickly and this is just another 00:06:17.720 --> 00:06:24.260 example of that and it's been so noticeable we have we have commented on the fact well i think 00:06:24.260 --> 00:06:31.040 it is particularly around dan and we have commented on the fact that that feels like it should it it 00:06:31.320 --> 00:06:36.840 it's so marked that you that you question whether there is an intention behind it not necessarily 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:41.720 that it's marked enough for you to be sure there's an intention behind it but it now looks like there 00:06:41.740 --> 00:06:48.120 I mean, you know, same caveat applies. We've still got three episodes. We don't know. But that's my guess now. 00:06:48.260 --> 00:06:52.360 You know, that's actually funny because I went through. 00:06:54.380 --> 00:06:55.840 That is very interesting. 00:06:56.360 --> 00:07:01.620 I went through and wrote down all the characters that I could think of. 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:11.700 And I then went to each character and I put down some thoughts about what the heck was going on there or what I felt. 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:24.260 And I realized just as we were going into this that I had completely forgotten the doctor who was pretty much inconsequential throughout this entire story. 00:07:26.340 --> 00:07:28.360 And I just now realized I forgot Dan. 00:07:29.220 --> 00:07:43.820 Because in a way, I'd sort of, I'd kind of be, I'd be treating the Doctor and Yaz and Kate in a slightly different category because they're the kind of known characters, whereas everyone else is new within the story. 00:07:44.500 --> 00:07:47.020 But, I mean, that's not to say they should be ignored. 00:07:47.200 --> 00:07:50.940 Of course, there is a question of what their development is. 00:07:51.320 --> 00:07:52.240 I got Yaz in here. 00:07:52.700 --> 00:07:55.160 Well, yeah, tell us about Yaz then. 00:07:55.360 --> 00:07:58.000 What did you think this was for her? 00:07:58.840 --> 00:08:02.780 I think this was a very problematic situation that's very creepy. 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:06.700 So, I mean, ever since RTD brought the show back, 00:08:07.100 --> 00:08:11.580 the hint of romance between the doctor and a companion has been a reality. 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:15.540 And it was very obvious throughout this, 00:08:15.610 --> 00:08:19.280 but I mean, it was especially obvious in the final scenes. 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:22.840 And I think that, 00:08:24.220 --> 00:08:25.940 and there's a problem here because of the, 00:08:26.640 --> 00:08:31.320 of saying this is more problematic than the others because it's a same sex 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:35.560 sort of situation, but that is not it. 00:08:36.219 --> 00:08:40.240 What it is, is the power dynamic between the two of them. 00:08:40.680 --> 00:08:42.159 That's the right phrase for it. 00:08:42.800 --> 00:08:44.460 Yaz idolizes the doctor. 00:08:45.100 --> 00:08:47.200 Yaz is a doctor groupie. 00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:49.660 Yaz worships the doctor. 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.680 Look at what would the doctor do written on her hand. 00:08:52.680 --> 00:08:56.360 I don't know if that's a thing that shows up in Britain, but, you know, 00:08:56.520 --> 00:09:05.060 ww jd is all over the place here what would jesus do that's that's what that is right yes 00:09:05.370 --> 00:09:12.520 do you think this is this this is different from the the martha doctor thing i do think it's a bit 00:09:12.640 --> 00:09:18.280 different from the martha doctor thing because i think the doctor was yes the doctor definitely 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:22.959 had or martha definitely had a thing for the doctor there is absolutely no doubt about that 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:29.300 uh it is totally one-sided it was totally one-sided if the doctor even noticed it he 00:09:29.860 --> 00:09:33.680 quickly dismissed it because he was still smarting about rose that was the whole point of that story 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:41.440 it was it was that martha stopped pining for the damaged guy kind of thing yeah this doesn't 00:09:41.800 --> 00:09:51.259 feel that way this doesn't have that loss or that that this is and yes is a lot and it there's a 00:09:51.280 --> 00:09:58.920 more like there's a difference between having the hots for the doctor and worshiping the doctor 00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:08.180 this this feels more like a cult kind of thing and i i don't know it just doesn't i i think it's 00:10:08.380 --> 00:10:15.360 ill conceived because of the way it's portrayed not what they're portraying but the way they've 00:10:15.460 --> 00:10:22.060 set Yaz up, I think they, I mean, she's a person who went to be a police officer. She took a career 00:10:22.100 --> 00:10:27.760 to help people. She throws that away to join the doctor. And that's the one person we've seen 00:10:28.240 --> 00:10:33.100 that we know she basically quit being police because work, you know, they kind of want you 00:10:33.100 --> 00:10:39.539 to show up. Okay. I get that. But she has, she has, she's, she's a roadie. She's following the 00:10:39.560 --> 00:10:47.840 doctor around. And this three-year obsession to do a completely pointless task that the doctor 00:10:48.040 --> 00:10:53.320 gave her. If you think about it, the doctor says, you know, the universe is, there's probably some 00:10:53.420 --> 00:10:57.460 smart people out there that'll know when the end of the universe is. I don't know where you are. 00:10:57.460 --> 00:11:02.140 I don't know what's happened, but we're separated. So find those people. Well, the doctor couldn't 00:11:02.140 --> 00:11:07.539 have known you were on 1901 Earth. And really? Do you really think you're going to find somebody 00:11:07.560 --> 00:11:17.220 on 1901 earth that's going to know about yeah now i don't think it's um i mean i think it 00:11:17.590 --> 00:11:23.960 i think i think the the parallels to the year of martha jones are actually quite strong i don't 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:30.220 think it's that different from that relationship but martha jones at least had a a task that 00:11:31.060 --> 00:11:38.480 there was something about the way the doctor was portrayed in the in those episodes and 00:11:39.180 --> 00:11:44.420 martha was martha was not fomenting with that the the disciple of the doctor she was yeah she 00:11:44.420 --> 00:11:52.640 was actually a kind of evangelical preacher for him so but did she believe it she was 00:11:53.380 --> 00:12:00.040 yeah totally she was she was i don't know partially of course we don't see much of 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:06.400 martha's year but a little bit but yeah and it went somewhere it actually accomplished something 00:12:06.940 --> 00:12:14.060 as well but no i i don't know it just doesn't yaz doesn't feel martha figured it out in the 00:12:14.160 --> 00:12:21.859 year apart you know she she figured out what was what was what well i i yeah i mean i i think this 00:12:21.880 --> 00:12:25.720 story is leading to there being a figuring out but i don't think we were going to get that in this 00:12:25.900 --> 00:12:30.220 because well we would we would have got it in this if you've been right and this was yaz's last 00:12:30.430 --> 00:12:38.140 episode but it's not so i think that's that's still going to be resolved in some way i mean 00:12:38.220 --> 00:12:43.940 it's interesting because for me the problematic side of that i mean i do i do feel that yaz has 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:50.739 been underdeveloped i think that chibnall is he he does write really good interesting characters 00:12:50.760 --> 00:12:55.840 and the first series saw him actually develop them in quite satisfying ways. 00:12:56.240 --> 00:13:01.420 And then I think that it felt to me like they were coasting in the second series. 00:13:02.060 --> 00:13:03.900 And I like Yaz a lot. 00:13:04.340 --> 00:13:07.340 I'm not quite sure it's recovered from that kind of coasting. 00:13:07.900 --> 00:13:10.280 But it's an improvement. 00:13:10.910 --> 00:13:14.560 And the problem here for me was that the Doctor has, 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.300 in order to kind of give Yaz something, 00:13:18.650 --> 00:13:19.980 well, I don't know if it's in order for this, 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:22.960 but it, Yaz has something to react against 00:13:23.310 --> 00:13:25.500 because the doctor shuts her out. 00:13:25.830 --> 00:13:28.220 And this is big and very explicit. 00:13:28.340 --> 00:13:30.260 I've complained in other respects 00:13:30.500 --> 00:13:34.580 about not being, not signaling things clearly enough. 00:13:34.650 --> 00:13:36.360 Well, this was pretty strongly signaled. 00:13:36.750 --> 00:13:39.480 The doctor is shutting Yaz out at the beginning 00:13:40.160 --> 00:13:44.200 and at the end, she is letting Yaz in. 00:13:44.310 --> 00:13:46.200 And so the doctor has been on a journey. 00:13:46.860 --> 00:13:48.820 So, okay, why is that a problem, Simon? 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:54.520 Well, the problem is that I have no idea why the doctor was shutting Yaz out in the first place. 00:13:55.860 --> 00:13:57.240 It's not explored at all. 00:13:57.920 --> 00:13:58.820 She's just doing it. 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.640 And it's like, oh, OK, that's going to drive the plot for a bit. 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:10.320 And then equally, the problem is at the end, I have no idea what was the thing that, I mean, there's been so much rushing around. 00:14:10.640 --> 00:14:17.560 And obviously, there are umpteen things that could have caused the doctor to go, you know, oh, my God, what have I done to Yaz? 00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:22.080 you know, the fact that as a result of my secrecy and my actions, 00:14:22.860 --> 00:14:26.320 Jericho got fried by the flux and now Yaz is distraught. 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:28.400 But, you know, that might be something that... 00:14:28.520 --> 00:14:29.820 But I have no idea. 00:14:29.980 --> 00:14:33.920 I have no idea why the doctor suddenly becomes very contrite 00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:38.400 about having treated Yaz very poorly in that respect. 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.200 And, I mean, obviously she's doing the right thing, 00:14:41.380 --> 00:14:42.880 but dramatically I want to know why. 00:14:43.520 --> 00:14:55.400 Yeah, I mean, every darn DC superhero show that they have on the CW, which is a network over here that puts together the Arrow and the Flash and all those. 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:04.580 The biggest thing about them is that none of the plots would get driven if one person didn't keep a secret from another person. 00:15:05.420 --> 00:15:09.680 It happens all the stinking time and you're just shouting at them. 00:15:10.280 --> 00:15:12.640 Just tell them, why are you keeping that a secret? 00:15:13.260 --> 00:15:15.680 But I don't mind people if there's a reason. 00:15:16.140 --> 00:15:17.920 There's a reason, but there's never a reason. 00:15:18.340 --> 00:15:18.820 That's the point. 00:15:19.080 --> 00:15:20.140 There's never a good reason. 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:23.780 It's always just like, I'm just that kind of person. 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:25.340 I'm just going to keep this to myself. 00:15:25.680 --> 00:15:28.000 And it's like, no, that's the person you should tell. 00:15:28.400 --> 00:15:30.520 And that's exactly what this should happen here. 00:15:30.800 --> 00:15:33.880 The doctor found out that she has amnesia. 00:15:34.020 --> 00:15:41.660 That's an easy metaphor to give to Yaz, who doesn't know, for all we know, knows nothing about regenerations or other past lives. 00:15:42.220 --> 00:15:49.660 and she she says i found out that i may be missing some years of my life my memories 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:56.040 and carvenista or this people i want to track that down that's all it needed to be said well 00:15:56.340 --> 00:16:02.500 absolutely and i but it i don't necessarily have a problem with her even keeping that secret it's 00:16:02.980 --> 00:16:08.959 it's not i'm taking you into danger and i'm not going to tell you yes but but that's okay people 00:16:08.980 --> 00:16:14.720 do people do stupid things people do things that are wrong that that that's dramatically interesting 00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:21.940 and i'm there for that but i need to know why they're doing it and so i need to know is the 00:16:22.180 --> 00:16:29.860 motivation is is the doctor you know is it because what is it is it is is she is she is she is she 00:16:30.040 --> 00:16:38.039 scared that there is some part of her that she is or should feel ashamed of is it that she 00:16:38.760 --> 00:16:47.280 it undermines her confidence because she you know she's i don't know though right it's like the what 00:16:47.380 --> 00:16:52.200 from what we know of the doc because the doctor is a kind of ever ever changing ever evolving 00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:58.920 personality anyway we need we need a little bit of character work with this doctor to explain 00:16:59.690 --> 00:17:05.499 how we how we expect her to react to a revelation like that we can't all 00:17:06.339 --> 00:17:11.959 project how we would react in that situation because we would all react differently and it's 00:17:12.060 --> 00:17:18.480 like you're almost certainly thinking yes i would react in a sane and rational way and i would 00:17:18.740 --> 00:17:24.319 explain to people that you know this is what's going on so we need to know why the doctor isn't 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:29.699 doing that you need to know why the doctor isn't doing that what is it about her personality that 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:36.020 means that she has to keep secrets from the house even when that harms yet even when that harms 00:17:36.200 --> 00:17:42.060 herself that there has to be a reason for it and and none is in evidence and there has been 00:17:42.520 --> 00:17:50.920 absolutely nothing to make that even even slightly understood it's just a thing the doctor has done 00:17:51.020 --> 00:17:55.920 to drive the quote unquote drama of the situation. 00:17:56.370 --> 00:18:00.060 And it's all handled so badly. 00:18:00.740 --> 00:18:02.540 It's all been handled so badly. 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.100 And it just doesn't. 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.440 And let me, you know, 00:18:07.540 --> 00:18:10.220 if we want to say characters don't have logical plots, 00:18:10.360 --> 00:18:11.980 let's look at Carvanista for a second. 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:13.860 I don't think I managed to get to all this. 00:18:14.580 --> 00:18:16.300 The very start of the flux, 00:18:16.860 --> 00:18:18.640 as in the flux, the series, 00:18:19.280 --> 00:18:20.980 the doctor has gone looking for Carvanista 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:22.980 because he's found out Carvanista was a division agent. 00:18:23.090 --> 00:18:23.900 Okay, fine. 00:18:24.980 --> 00:18:26.440 Carvanista tries to kill the doctor. 00:18:27.700 --> 00:18:29.420 And yes, somebody doesn't even know. 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.960 Carvanista tries to pretend to be, 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:36.480 he phrases his monologue about, 00:18:36.560 --> 00:18:39.060 now I'm off to the final layer of the planet Earth. 00:18:39.540 --> 00:18:41.180 Like I'm off to destroy the planet. 00:18:41.680 --> 00:18:41.980 How? 00:18:42.520 --> 00:18:42.580 Hmm? 00:18:43.120 --> 00:18:43.560 Why? 00:18:44.760 --> 00:18:46.360 But he's a completely sympathetic character 00:18:46.430 --> 00:18:47.960 by the end of the show. 00:18:48.010 --> 00:18:49.900 And it's not because he's gone for growth. 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:52.580 It's not because he's gone through growth. 00:18:52.840 --> 00:18:58.040 It's because the writer just keeps slipping out little bits and suddenly he starts behaving differently. 00:18:58.900 --> 00:19:02.080 And, you know, he kidnaps Dan. 00:19:02.870 --> 00:19:09.700 He gets there early for no logical reason except some tiny thingy happened that got him there first. 00:19:10.320 --> 00:19:15.740 Which, you know, could tie into the whole thing of Di getting kidnapped. 00:19:16.230 --> 00:19:20.040 Because I think Di's kidnap must somehow tie to Dan. 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:25.140 that i think those two things have to be there again it could be just inconsistently bad writing 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:30.660 like how do we why does he get here first i don't know give him a time boost okay whatever um yeah 00:19:31.100 --> 00:19:36.900 that's fine it could be it could be that but he gets there first he's mean to dan he's he's violent 00:19:37.220 --> 00:19:44.040 to him he's uh locks him in a cage i mean he's ostensibly there to rescue him but then he then 00:19:44.040 --> 00:19:49.019 he turns out he was the doctor's companion and then and then we get oh well i can't tell you 00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:52.420 about that because I've got this thing in my brain. It'll kill me instantly if I tell you 00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:57.600 anything about it. Oh, okay. Well, I guess I'll just drop the subject. Not, hey, let me see if 00:19:57.660 --> 00:20:03.340 the sonic screwdriver can fix that for you. Let me get a medical scan and see if that's really true. 00:20:04.260 --> 00:20:13.379 Nothing. My take on Carbonista is not that at all. I mean, I thought that he was written pretty 00:20:13.400 --> 00:20:19.160 consistently but i felt that again it was partly to do with i think the problematic structure and 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:25.080 editing of episode one was we didn't we didn't it was very difficult for us to get a handle on 00:20:25.560 --> 00:20:30.840 who he was because you think murdering the doctor fit yeah totally with our later revelations 00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:37.440 yeah ex-companion of the doctor i'm just gonna kill her yeah because all because all the way 00:20:37.480 --> 00:20:45.040 through he's quite um he's quite kind of uh violent he's quite what what what you know what's 00:20:45.040 --> 00:20:50.420 the word he's quick he's quick to anger he's he's got a he's got a temper on him and he's incredibly 00:20:50.820 --> 00:20:58.460 incredibly angry with having been uh rejected and abandoned by the doctor so there she turns up yeah 00:20:58.620 --> 00:21:04.240 no i think that totally fits with with what we're told about him seems murder might be over the line 00:21:04.260 --> 00:21:11.600 but okay i'm i said i he's a pretty violent guy i i think i mean that's what's quite interesting 00:21:11.820 --> 00:21:20.660 about him he's like lila plus but wouldn't he i don't know again he knows the doctor he he does 00:21:20.820 --> 00:21:26.480 know the doctor he's obviously been the doctor's companion well he says as much why that doesn't 00:21:26.540 --> 00:21:34.240 kill him i don't know but all right um and he must know that things will be better if he had the 00:21:34.500 --> 00:21:39.980 doctor help out with the flux rather than kill the doctor right at the moment the universe is about to 00:21:39.980 --> 00:21:45.880 be destroyed because obviously they knew that the lupari knew because they spent their millions and 00:21:46.100 --> 00:21:51.280 millions and millions of whatever they use dog biscuits or dog euros or whatever it is to build 00:21:51.300 --> 00:21:56.280 their seven billion spacecraft to fly to the earth to rescue seven billion people individually 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:05.200 you know uh but and and do you do you not think it's a plot hole that the earth didn't notice 00:22:05.300 --> 00:22:11.680 that they were encompassed in the lupari shield for six weeks because they were um not three 00:22:11.780 --> 00:22:17.560 minutes we don't we don't get to see what effect the lupa is it visible i mean what effect does 00:22:17.580 --> 00:22:23.020 that have well it's it you when we see it it's obviously visible and it's supposedly surrounding 00:22:23.180 --> 00:22:29.040 the earth so that means no sunlight no it didn't yeah but we do see sunlight so sunlight can 00:22:29.050 --> 00:22:35.380 obviously on the earth we see sunlight when we see the lupari shield no it's not transparent 00:22:36.010 --> 00:22:41.860 so but how how is how is the earth sunlit if it if the if it's not possible for light to pass 00:22:41.900 --> 00:22:47.520 through it well i think the answer is how would it be at writing that's my point no no continuity 00:22:47.750 --> 00:22:53.780 error that's a rather circular argument let let me let me rephrase that isn't yours head canon 00:22:54.220 --> 00:22:58.920 the ships must be transparent isn't that just i'm i'm making that up too because it's not in evidence 00:22:59.050 --> 00:23:04.360 in the show let well let me let me ask you no i mean i think i think i've made certain assumptions 00:23:04.560 --> 00:23:09.720 about it but you're suggesting you should be able to see the lupari ships from earth i think actually 00:23:09.740 --> 00:23:12.820 I think you should not be able to see anything from Earth because there's no light. 00:23:13.260 --> 00:23:15.160 Well, there is light. 00:23:15.540 --> 00:23:16.260 There is light. 00:23:16.300 --> 00:23:20.400 So if the light is getting in, how is it you would be able to see the ships? 00:23:20.760 --> 00:23:22.220 That's what I'm getting at. 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:29.940 I agree that if we had in any way established that the Lupari ships weren't opaque. 00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:33.080 Well, we're seeing sunlight. 00:23:34.180 --> 00:23:35.120 Does that not establish it? 00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:35.880 No. 00:23:36.440 --> 00:23:39.560 The only time we ever see the Lupari ships, again, 00:23:40.320 --> 00:23:42.700 it's either headcanon that they must be transparent. 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:46.020 When we literally see they are not transparent, 00:23:46.820 --> 00:23:50.340 every time we see the Lupari ships, they are not transparent. 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:52.500 Light is not passing through them. 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:52.740 No, I'm not. 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:56.460 What I'm saying is if you're on the surface of the Earth 00:23:56.880 --> 00:23:58.900 and there is sunlight reaching the surface of the Earth, 00:23:59.100 --> 00:24:01.980 if you're in that position, because I don't know whether we see them 00:24:02.120 --> 00:24:04.540 from that position, because they must be shot to the sky. 00:24:05.560 --> 00:24:06.100 Yeah, kind of. 00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:12.840 we see the blue sky in places yeah so doesn't that mean you can't see them from earth well 00:24:13.040 --> 00:24:19.220 that's the circular logic i mean they're both we are presented with two things we are presented 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:25.820 with a shield that you cannot see through we we see that but hang on we could we we you're 00:24:25.980 --> 00:24:29.240 specifically talking about what's visible from the surface of the planet aren't you 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.400 i'm can you see through them from the surface of the planet wasn't that the original question 00:24:33.860 --> 00:24:39.340 and the answer to that is if we have any shots they aren't visible in it so yes so 00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:45.360 unless it's a mistake well that wouldn't be a mistake how would that be a mistake 00:24:46.120 --> 00:24:52.800 it would be a mistake because it's sloppy but that's my point what no i sorry explain what 00:24:52.830 --> 00:24:59.040 the mistake is okay here here is ignore what you can see from earth ignore that for a second i 00:24:59.060 --> 00:25:01.740 We see, we see the, no, no. 00:25:02.340 --> 00:25:02.540 Okay. 00:25:02.630 --> 00:25:03.180 No, no. 00:25:03.740 --> 00:25:04.440 Ignore that first. 00:25:04.700 --> 00:25:05.840 Let's establish our facts. 00:25:06.090 --> 00:25:07.940 Our facts are that we see the shield. 00:25:08.320 --> 00:25:11.240 We, the audience, see the shield in space. 00:25:12.040 --> 00:25:13.780 It is not translucent. 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:15.100 It is opaque. 00:25:15.880 --> 00:25:16.760 We see that. 00:25:17.130 --> 00:25:18.800 We see it when it surrounds the earth. 00:25:19.300 --> 00:25:27.940 We see it when it is blocking out the Suntarans and view of the flux because they can't see it or the Daleks and the Cybermen. 00:25:28.300 --> 00:25:31.520 And then they open it up, they break it apart, and you can see the flux. 00:25:32.080 --> 00:25:36.240 The Lupari shield does not let you see through it. 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:38.340 Does not let light pass through it. 00:25:38.520 --> 00:25:39.360 We see that. 00:25:39.860 --> 00:25:44.780 They then wrap it around the Earth, and somehow Earth still has light. 00:25:45.340 --> 00:25:49.740 Now, you are assuming that must mean you can pass light through the shield. 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:54.500 And I am assuming that it is just poor storytelling. 00:25:55.440 --> 00:25:59.340 Neither is in evidence in the script because they are they conflict with each other. 00:25:59.900 --> 00:26:08.040 The shield is both opaque and it is apparently transparent and no reconciliation is given to those two errors. 00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:13.340 It's I don't know how to make it any more black and white than that. 00:26:13.610 --> 00:26:16.420 We we can see the shield can't be seen through. 00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:22.520 And yet we can't see it can be it can't be seen through from the surface of the planet. 00:26:22.660 --> 00:26:24.860 And isn't that the isn't that what are you saying? 00:26:25.040 --> 00:26:26.360 It's only transparent one way. 00:26:27.040 --> 00:26:39.700 I'm saying that if light can pass through it so that light reaches the surface of the planet, how would you be able to see it from the surface of the planet? 00:26:40.140 --> 00:26:43.160 You wouldn't be able to see the shield from the surface of the planet if it were transparent. 00:26:43.300 --> 00:26:43.400 Right. 00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:44.540 I agree with that. 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:46.660 But what I'm saying is it's not transparent. 00:26:47.560 --> 00:26:51.680 It's like you couldn't see anything because there would be no light getting to the Earth. 00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:53.100 That's what I'm saying. 00:26:53.660 --> 00:27:05.780 I'm saying every scene we see during the period from Halloween to December 5th, where there is light on the earth, is a oversight on behalf of the people making it. 00:27:06.280 --> 00:27:10.080 It's just something they've just not bothered to think about. 00:27:10.710 --> 00:27:15.000 Except it's weird because they did say there was a three-minute eclipse when the shield formed. 00:27:15.540 --> 00:27:17.440 But again, that's it. 00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:20.060 Well, I may have that wrong. 00:27:20.620 --> 00:27:21.520 I thought the three-minute. 00:27:21.960 --> 00:27:22.540 Oh, no, maybe you. 00:27:22.610 --> 00:27:22.800 No. 00:27:23.300 --> 00:27:28.760 I was thinking three minute eclipse was the Sontarans, but no, actually that was the Lupari, wasn't it? 00:27:29.090 --> 00:27:31.280 It must have. Well, they both happened at the same time. 00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:35.000 Just as Lupari shield closed, the Sontarans arrived. Yeah. 00:27:35.620 --> 00:27:37.940 Ah, yeah. So it could have been the Sontarans. Yeah. 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:38.800 So. 00:27:43.380 --> 00:27:46.240 I don't know. I mean, that seems it seemed like I can't. 00:27:46.650 --> 00:27:52.460 I to me, those are consistent. If you if you have sunlight on the surface, you shouldn't be able to see them. 00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:57.880 which is not what i'm fine yeah i'm not saying that i'm not that's not what i'm saying and i'm 00:27:58.020 --> 00:28:01.560 absolutely not saying that i'm saying if there were sunlight then they would have to be transparent 00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:06.960 and you would not see them well that is absolutely true but they are not transparent and yet somehow 00:28:07.020 --> 00:28:12.220 we still see sunlight it's the sunlight that's the problem not the sheet not the ships yeah but 00:28:12.360 --> 00:28:18.699 what has to be true is that the sunlight has to reach the surface of the planet doesn't have to 00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:22.940 be that the ships are transparent that's not the only way that the sunlight could be getting there 00:28:23.260 --> 00:28:28.320 but surely that's just headcanon right you're just you're just coming up with an excuse 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:34.500 for something that they didn't bother to i'm starting with i'm starting with what's observable 00:28:34.700 --> 00:28:43.620 on screen if we if we had if we had observed that the the ships were blocking the light to 00:28:43.620 --> 00:28:48.159 the planet and there was still sunlight on the planet that's a problem but if we if we're 00:28:48.180 --> 00:28:52.080 observing that light is reaching the surface of the planet and you can't see the ships from the 00:28:52.210 --> 00:28:56.560 surface of the planet that doesn't seem to me to be a problem we do see the ships blocking light to 00:28:56.560 --> 00:29:02.700 the planet when they surround the planet the sunlight is hitting them and we can see them 00:29:03.300 --> 00:29:10.420 which is the light reflecting off of them not passing through them and we cannot see the earth 00:29:10.520 --> 00:29:18.380 below them so we we see it both ways we see a planet completely enclosed in something that 00:29:18.610 --> 00:29:25.060 you can't see through and we see inside the planet where they don't notice that their planet 00:29:25.600 --> 00:29:32.360 has been surrounded by a shield it's just it's probably a bonus episode um that we're gonna 00:29:32.660 --> 00:29:37.559 we're gonna just cut this out and put this in as the bonus episode what the heck with that shield 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:44.260 but anyway let's see do any other things i just want to hit because i know we're running long 00:29:44.460 --> 00:29:50.820 but and who knows joseph williamson okay never heard of the williamson tunnels turns out they're 00:29:50.900 --> 00:29:57.680 real oh yeah okay yep that's that's just the thing i'd like to go see that in addition to the 00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:02.859 under seattle thing from the night stalker now that's on my list of places that i have to go 00:30:02.880 --> 00:30:09.160 underground well maybe they're connected maybe maybe we can have a british version of the night 00:30:09.340 --> 00:30:15.140 stalker and it could be down in those tunnels i bet their website is just hit chock-a-block now 00:30:15.700 --> 00:30:20.740 after this uh after this doctor who assuming people knew it was real to begin with and know 00:30:20.740 --> 00:30:27.499 to look it up online i don't think any americans did they probably won somewhere but um bell 00:30:27.520 --> 00:30:34.900 Vinder I mean well he came in handy once in a while but all right well and Vinder were really 00:30:35.060 --> 00:30:42.300 good I liked I liked I liked both their characters and they were well used within the story and it 00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:50.440 was a simple arc that was introduced as the you know here's here's the problem well Vinder was a 00:30:50.460 --> 00:30:53.799 little bit more complicated we didn't get his backstory until episode three but here's the 00:30:53.820 --> 00:31:00.100 problem they have been separated and they need to get back together and the story is they travel to 00:31:00.520 --> 00:31:07.140 to find each other and the resolution is they find each other yeah it's kind of simple but that to me 00:31:07.600 --> 00:31:12.240 was much more satisfying than a lot of the other character arcs in this i just i did all right i'll 00:31:12.440 --> 00:31:20.919 i'll go with that uh but from the standpoint of the six hours that they had to tell the story of 00:31:20.940 --> 00:31:28.480 the flux i feel like we suffered because we had arcs like this thrown in there that didn't really 00:31:28.600 --> 00:31:37.040 have much to do with it it was i so we ended we ended with a lot of the doctor talking about this 00:31:37.140 --> 00:31:40.900 and talking and talking and talking in the swarm and as you're talking and talking and talking 00:31:41.220 --> 00:31:45.499 and explaining stuff that they should have been showing us in some way and they didn't have time 00:31:45.520 --> 00:31:52.400 to do that because they i'll use the word they wasted it on bell and vendor i i i think i i'm 00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:57.080 inclined to agree with your point that they should have shown us more than they told us there was a 00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:03.760 lot of exposition in this that was probably as a result of them putting more in than was needed for 00:32:04.020 --> 00:32:09.239 six hours of television but for me but the bell and vendor storyline was a nice example of how 00:32:09.260 --> 00:32:17.280 they were actually using a story arc within the episode to actually show us stuff and to to kind 00:32:17.280 --> 00:32:23.280 of build build the universe i was gonna say world building it's universe building that they do 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:30.160 through for example like one of my absolute favorite uh scenes in the whole um storyline 00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:37.359 was the was the the sermon on the mount bit the as you're getting recruits for for passenger 00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:43.320 or whatever and what what the vinder and bell storyline allowed you to do was to provide 00:32:44.320 --> 00:32:51.280 witnesses to those scenes so that you had a kind of purpose to to seeing these little vignettes 00:32:51.370 --> 00:32:57.740 these little elements of the universe and what the flux was doing to it so to me it should have been 00:32:57.940 --> 00:33:05.579 more of that kind of stuff not less but but in the same vein they used uh they used in episode two 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:14.580 the whole well and three uh we can just bounce yaz and dan all over the place because timey 00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:19.400 and so they could have witnessed those our characters could have witnessed those things 00:33:20.060 --> 00:33:24.320 our characters could have had uh could have had those revelations instead of 00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:33.079 well kind of but i mean the the the core again their quest was not only was their quest 00:33:33.600 --> 00:33:39.100 unnecessary to the unraveling of flux yes we got to see the sermon on the mount which is 00:33:39.530 --> 00:33:45.560 the only bit of it that that really had a lot of anything about what the flux was doing to the 00:33:45.660 --> 00:33:53.800 universe and we had the you know she goes he follows she gets taken away just before he gets 00:33:54.020 --> 00:34:02.439 there just a lot of excess that didn't really drive anything unless you just were invested 00:34:02.460 --> 00:34:08.760 in watching Vinder and Bell on screen and I'm not um I mean I didn't dislike them I didn't 00:34:09.020 --> 00:34:17.300 dislike them but you know they were not advancing much of the story and you know the whole all the 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:25.659 all the stuff we saw with Williamson most of it was completely nonsensical and it well that wasn't 00:34:25.700 --> 00:34:30.159 connected to Bell and Vinder no it wasn't I'm just picking another completely random stray 00:34:30.179 --> 00:34:36.360 thread of nonsense that they're wasting okay well no okay well i would right again because 00:34:36.500 --> 00:34:41.120 chuck some of that out and put it into the actual telling us of the story of the flux and 00:34:41.659 --> 00:34:46.100 and what's going on or or i don't know coming up with a better ending for swarm and azure 00:34:46.340 --> 00:34:54.179 or explaining to us why azure was was trapped in a body of a woman in was it iceland greenland 00:34:55.020 --> 00:35:01.020 i don't see the connection between the bell and vinda story and the williamson story because i'm 00:35:01.020 --> 00:35:04.840 not making a connection between them there was no connection between them other than they were both 00:35:05.140 --> 00:35:10.960 kind of unnecessary yeah but what no what what i'm saying is i think that bell and bell and 00:35:11.140 --> 00:35:20.200 vinda's the the story there was a as i say a kind of a satisfying complete story that was told 00:35:20.720 --> 00:35:25.540 in it that was there was structured in a way that gave you the introduction and the and the 00:35:25.640 --> 00:35:33.700 resolution and williamson's wasn't so i i'm really not seeing that parallel it felt to me like when 00:35:33.700 --> 00:35:37.980 you get introduced to williamson in that first episode there's a kind of fairly random scene 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:43.580 of him just arguing with the guy stonehouse about why he's building his tunnels we don't get any 00:35:44.160 --> 00:35:50.180 we don't get any of the kind of significance of the tunnels or any any kind of deeper background 00:35:50.200 --> 00:35:58.160 it's very very just random and then in the in the conclusion to williamson's story it's basically 00:35:58.380 --> 00:36:02.440 just the doctor saying oh we've got to keep you we've got to keep you safe because you're 00:36:02.720 --> 00:36:08.840 you're important to history which is pretty lame for a start but then it's what's worse about it 00:36:08.900 --> 00:36:15.359 is he just does it and what on earth is his motivation for doing that at that point it's just 00:36:15.640 --> 00:36:23.120 getting him out of the story so although i liked the concept of these tunnels and it it it was you 00:36:23.120 --> 00:36:28.960 know it's a pretty cool idea and a kind of cool visual and i liked williamson's performance i 00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:34.780 thought the actor did a great job you know kind of wandering around and and spouting this stuff 00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:43.180 but the actual execution of the character arc within this was at the polar opposite end for 00:36:43.200 --> 00:36:52.380 me at any rate from the bell and vinder storyline in terms of of being coherent i i i definitely 00:36:52.600 --> 00:36:57.940 will say the bell and vinder story was a bit was more coherent i'm just saying that neither of them 00:36:58.060 --> 00:37:03.600 advanced the overall story much and i could see the bell and vinder story being a the dr light 00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:09.620 episode for the season if this had been a a regular season of episodes of dr who and maybe 00:37:09.640 --> 00:37:16.820 that's where the germ of that idea came from but it was i think the doctor light was was wasted 00:37:17.120 --> 00:37:23.140 material here dan and dan and yas and jericho for that too yeah i think there was a lot of yeah 00:37:23.580 --> 00:37:28.780 there's a lot of doctor light in this you know the williamson is kind of fulfilling the same 00:37:28.940 --> 00:37:35.140 kind of role as mary seacole her story was a little more satisfying but equally it didn't really 00:37:35.620 --> 00:37:39.760 I thought I thought her story was satisfying but it was it was too short you know there was 00:37:40.380 --> 00:37:45.600 at the end of it you I think we did say in our little look at it that you know you could leave 00:37:45.700 --> 00:37:50.500 the story there but I want to see her back and we did leave the story there and it did have a 00:37:50.700 --> 00:37:57.180 conclusion of sorts but equally when we talked about Claire at the end of Village of the Angels 00:37:57.480 --> 00:38:03.360 I said well I want to see her back because I felt like her story wasn't concluded so it did feel 00:38:03.580 --> 00:38:09.220 much more important that she came back in the final episode yeah but you know again the the 00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:17.300 the angel story the absolute hands down best episode of the six um from terms of sitting and 00:38:17.420 --> 00:38:21.900 watching argue uh you know in terms of sitting down and watching an hour of television going 00:38:21.990 --> 00:38:26.420 okay well that was that was a tense hour of television that had me gripped argue with that 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:32.720 that too was you know in the end inconsequential that that entire story could have been told 00:38:33.240 --> 00:38:39.220 when the angel captured the doctor at the beginning of the episode transport and we're done and that's 00:38:39.720 --> 00:38:46.400 it's out and they could have spent that time also working on fleshing out the flux storyline 00:38:47.160 --> 00:38:52.980 a bit um but you know here's the thing about fleshing out the flux storyline it's not very good 00:38:54.540 --> 00:38:59.320 well right i mean it's not very seem to be i don't this story maybe it could have been better 00:38:59.340 --> 00:39:03.200 Could have had less time spent on it so they could spend more time on that storyline. 00:39:03.290 --> 00:39:04.000 It wasn't very good. 00:39:04.590 --> 00:39:12.140 And I'm kind of sympathetic to the idea that there were storylines in this that I liked better than others. 00:39:12.580 --> 00:39:16.780 And in some cases, I felt, yeah, they should have got more time. 00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:23.100 I could have had a lot more Swarm and Azure, but I didn't necessarily need as much Sontaran. 00:39:24.220 --> 00:39:26.880 Lamest villain end ever in Doctor Who? 00:39:27.540 --> 00:39:27.980 Swarm and Azure? 00:39:28.660 --> 00:39:37.760 It certainly it certainly did not. Yeah, it did not. It did not live up to the the kind of jeopardy that they brought early on. 00:39:37.950 --> 00:39:54.980 I mean, when we when you're first introduced to to Swarm in that prison and the yeah, the way he kind of absorbs people and everything and the fact that he kills Texio and that that kind of adds a level, if indeed he has, that adds a level of jeopardy. 00:39:55.100 --> 00:40:06.260 I wouldn't say I wouldn't write off the whole ending, but the bit where the Welsh government built and I'm normally so wrapped up in Doctor Who, I don't notice locations. 00:40:06.720 --> 00:40:12.880 But the Welsh government building just doesn't feel like a temple to me. 00:40:13.520 --> 00:40:18.880 I'm sorry. And it's just it didn't even look like the temple of Atropos that we saw earlier in the series. 00:40:19.420 --> 00:40:47.920 Exactly. It looks like the Welsh government building. And yeah, the time just sort of waved a hand at them and they disappeared. But the reason I would say don't write the episode off is because I think that as your speech to the doctor at Division earlier in the episode, the whole, you know, why is it what you fight for? Why is that better than what we will bring? And the doctor's sort of not really having a good answer because otherwise, why are we here? 00:40:48.420 --> 00:40:55.680 that I mean I just thought I I thought the actress um Rochenda Sandell playing as you was just 00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:01.600 phenomenal and and and the kind of prosthetics and everything just everything about her was just 00:41:02.340 --> 00:41:08.840 it was it was absolutely superb so I I thought that particular scene was one of the kind of 00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:16.020 best doctor villain showdowns that we have had in Doctor Who but I mean it went downhill after that 00:41:16.200 --> 00:41:19.880 To be fair to that question, why is what you stand for? 00:41:20.080 --> 00:41:24.160 I mean, that's that's the refrain of villains throughout all throughout all drama. 00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:28.480 But done but done with such genuineness and such curiosity. 00:41:29.220 --> 00:41:33.160 It's I know it's partly in the writing, partly in the delivery, I guess. 00:41:33.840 --> 00:41:39.560 Let me ask the question, because I, again, not having certainly never going back to episode three again. 00:41:40.200 --> 00:41:45.380 You know, even when it comes out on Blu-ray, it's probably just not script the whole thing. 00:41:45.700 --> 00:41:46.320 I'll own it. 00:41:46.320 --> 00:41:47.080 Your synopsis. 00:41:47.720 --> 00:41:49.380 I'll own it, but I'll. 00:41:49.900 --> 00:41:52.920 In episode one, Swarm is played by a different actor. 00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:53.560 Yeah. 00:41:53.980 --> 00:42:03.800 He then transforms by absorbing and they do it, which I assume is some sort of subtle or less than subtle parallel with regeneration. 00:42:04.700 --> 00:42:08.200 Well, I don't know, because it involves absorbing another creature's life force. 00:42:08.620 --> 00:42:15.920 And I, yeah, when I saw that, again, it's one of the problems, I think, with the first episode was I assumed this was the monster we were seeing. 00:42:16.010 --> 00:42:22.080 This was the concept that Swarm would absorb all the people that he came across. 00:42:22.720 --> 00:42:34.120 And each time he absorbed someone, it would add a kind of a difference to his his character, his, you know, his whole who how he looks, how he acts, how he sounds. 00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:36.980 Because it happened the first time. Why didn't it happen again? 00:42:37.660 --> 00:42:41.220 What actor played Swarm in episode two in the flashbacks? 00:42:41.800 --> 00:42:42.580 You mean episode three? 00:42:43.240 --> 00:42:43.820 Three, sorry. 00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:46.900 When the flashback to Atropos and the capture of them, 00:42:47.040 --> 00:42:50.800 was it the actor that was in prison or was it the actor that after it was? 00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:51.520 Yeah. 00:42:52.220 --> 00:42:53.080 I couldn't tell. 00:42:53.520 --> 00:42:54.900 I wouldn't have known they were different actors. 00:42:55.580 --> 00:42:59.180 Oh, I thought that was ultimately, 00:42:59.540 --> 00:43:02.200 so to answer the question I had about episode one, 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:07.300 about, you know, why does he change then, but never again? 00:43:07.980 --> 00:43:11.180 I think probably, if I'm being slightly cynical, 00:43:11.690 --> 00:43:15.560 the answer is, for production reasons, in episode three, 00:43:16.340 --> 00:43:18.920 it really, really helps you understand what's going on, 00:43:19.000 --> 00:43:21.800 that they are, that he looks completely different in the flashbacks 00:43:21.940 --> 00:43:23.420 and sounds completely different in the flashbacks. 00:43:23.860 --> 00:43:24.660 Does he look different? 00:43:25.300 --> 00:43:25.500 Yes. 00:43:25.880 --> 00:43:28.260 See, I don't think much of the prosthetics and the makeup. 00:43:28.860 --> 00:43:29.520 Oh, I love that. 00:43:29.700 --> 00:43:34.620 they're just crystals stuck on somebody's head painted blue or whatever but they but they also 00:43:34.940 --> 00:43:40.180 all of the they're they're very flexible and very expressive i mean i think generally the prosthetics 00:43:40.740 --> 00:43:46.540 throughout the season were of a high standard because there are some tarant episodes where 00:43:46.680 --> 00:43:53.160 oh yeah they just don't register at all and in this you know you're getting a lot around the eyes 00:43:53.420 --> 00:43:58.460 and the the kind of the way you know just the movements of the the mouth when they're looking 00:43:58.520 --> 00:44:03.760 a bit i mean even the stupid chocolate scene you get a santaan looking embarrassed and there are 00:44:03.960 --> 00:44:08.320 costumes where you could not have done that oh i agree the santaan costumes are much better than 00:44:08.320 --> 00:44:13.740 they used to be well i thought there was that kind of mobility in the in the ravagers makeup as well 00:44:14.040 --> 00:44:19.960 even frankly i didn't i didn't think the ravagers were we're worried wearing much in the way of 00:44:20.160 --> 00:44:26.380 prosthetics uh you know stick some crystals on their bald head cap uh nose prosthetic paint and 00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:34.500 blue they were blue right bluish azure was blue azure was azure yeah what what color was swarm 00:44:34.510 --> 00:44:41.140 was brown was he brown okay tim shaw or purple he definitely had some teeth like protuberances 00:44:41.270 --> 00:44:44.520 they weren't teeth they were more crystalline they weren't i know i know it wasn't i did get 00:44:44.600 --> 00:44:49.440 the tim tim shaw vibe yeah i mean i didn't wonder if he was tim shaw at the beginning and i also 00:44:49.600 --> 00:44:55.140 wondered if he was the master but i'm glad to say and and the grand serpent that's more and the 00:44:55.160 --> 00:44:59.380 grand serpent why wasn't he the master that would have kind of made more sense but at the end 00:44:59.860 --> 00:45:06.760 it doesn't really matter because he's been placed on a six by six asteroid in space with no air so 00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:14.600 uh dead right well obviously not dead or he would actually have been dead i mean i think we may 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:20.660 get him back i really really i mean craig parkinson's a wonderful villain in the early 00:45:20.680 --> 00:45:27.120 series of line of duty so he's he's quite recognizable for a british audience he was 00:45:27.420 --> 00:45:35.220 underused in this yes i i i'm glad the grand serpent was a distinct you know it's it it's a 00:45:35.440 --> 00:45:41.560 it's a cool thing that whatever she called it the die binary yeah symbiotic are you thinking 00:45:42.020 --> 00:45:48.520 but yeah just killing people with your own personal snake very very cool but i didn't 00:45:48.540 --> 00:45:55.780 understand what his motivation was we get that he is this former oh he's gonna he's gonna wipe out 00:45:55.780 --> 00:46:02.740 the suntarans how did he get deposed and what is his plan now i don't yeah all you know all 00:46:03.040 --> 00:46:07.920 completely underdeveloped yeah all the way through the unit storyline you get what his short-term goal 00:46:08.040 --> 00:46:14.080 is and you see what he's doing and that feels effective to me you know he's and didn't he order 00:46:14.620 --> 00:46:21.040 didn't he order the missiles launched yeah what happened i don't know it sounded like he ordered 00:46:21.070 --> 00:46:26.720 their launch and we never saw anything more about it we never saw planet earth wiped out bits of it 00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:32.980 i mean it just well it's i mean it's presumably how the santaarns got through the invasion but 00:46:32.980 --> 00:46:39.280 yeah i mean you're right there's no i don't recognize the actor who played the grand serpent 00:46:39.300 --> 00:46:47.000 and I you know I I did joke earlier that he should have been the master and I kind of actually meant 00:46:47.080 --> 00:46:53.780 that is that is the first actor they've had in a long time on Doctor Who that when I looked at that 00:46:53.880 --> 00:47:01.340 guy I said I hope that's the master he actually that's the master right yeah that's the master 00:47:02.980 --> 00:47:06.320 yeah no you're up he doesn't need to be jumping up and down and going 00:47:07.540 --> 00:47:14.920 crazy master that guy was the master i uh yeah and i i thought the the weakest point in his 00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:20.680 performance was when he got all flustered because the doctor rescued herself most of the time he is 00:47:20.760 --> 00:47:28.080 just incredibly sinister and understated but that emphasizes his power and the master's all about 00:47:28.100 --> 00:47:35.780 power so yeah he's he's roger donato without the goatee but yeah yeah no you're absolutely right 00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:41.260 he is one of the most master actors we've had yeah oh you've made me sad now that's it that is 00:47:41.340 --> 00:47:47.060 i mean the grand serpent could be a great character if you know with a bit bit more 00:47:47.420 --> 00:47:53.120 building up but it's yeah the master would be even better oh yeah yeah he was he was uh 00:47:53.700 --> 00:47:54.260 I don't know. 00:47:57.619 --> 00:48:00.140 I really was disappointed about that. 00:48:00.420 --> 00:48:05.360 I thought, you know, I found it hard to believe that the Master didn't show up in this. 00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:15.360 Well, the forces of darkness in their Master are forecast to turn up at the end of the Doctor's, what did you say? 00:48:16.120 --> 00:48:18.980 Nothing lasts forever, no regeneration, no life. 00:48:19.460 --> 00:48:19.680 Yeah. 00:48:20.720 --> 00:48:22.660 Maybe they're actually just going to blow this up. 00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:28.500 The whole universe is going to collapse and they're going to just let Russell T. Davies start all over again. 00:48:29.140 --> 00:48:30.020 Get out of that, Russell. 00:48:30.660 --> 00:48:37.600 Now, I think what is happening there is I find it quite regrettable. 00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:42.940 It's the whole your, you know, your song is over slash trends. 00:48:43.160 --> 00:48:48.200 We must create a sense of foreboding to build up to the doctor's regeneration. 00:48:48.760 --> 00:48:50.080 No, no, thank you. 00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:51.380 We don't need that. 00:48:51.520 --> 00:48:55.600 Have the Doctor just charge in something in a crazy, big-hearted way, 00:48:55.860 --> 00:48:59.320 save someone else and die as a consequence, and then regenerate, please. 00:49:00.060 --> 00:49:07.360 I think the only time that I thought that was done kind of okay, kind of, is Legopolis. 00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:10.220 Yeah, the moment was prepared for. 00:49:10.540 --> 00:49:13.940 But this is the moment being over-prepared for, in my view. 00:49:14.040 --> 00:49:14.180 Right. 00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:19.700 And you definitely got this kind of death vibe in Legopolis. 00:49:20.340 --> 00:49:25.260 I mean the other thing is seven years of Tom Baker you kind of felt like he earned it yeah 00:49:25.630 --> 00:49:31.160 and it needed Jody and like yeah I mean none of them or whatever it is none of them have done 00:49:31.290 --> 00:49:35.880 that long enough we're all used to the fact I mean the other one I guess would be Chris Eccleston 00:49:36.020 --> 00:49:41.660 because it's about hand-holding isn't it with Tom Baker how many of the fans would there have been 00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:46.040 left after seven years who've been watching it in the John Pertwee years it would have become a 00:49:46.060 --> 00:49:53.700 minority i imagine and so you need to handhold them through to the next doctor whereas on the 00:49:53.820 --> 00:49:58.140 kind of three-year cycle it's like well yeah sure there'll be some new fans who've joined since 00:49:58.560 --> 00:50:04.300 the last regeneration but most people know you get a new doctor from time to time yeah deal 00:50:04.860 --> 00:50:13.720 yeah uh well as long as somebody knocks four times is it four times yeah yeah it's just really 00:50:13.740 --> 00:50:23.160 a shame i just really am sadly disappointed in in the flux i'm i'm disappointed in the ending 00:50:23.240 --> 00:50:29.500 i'm honestly surprised and you're surprised i'm disappointed uh i i thought i thought well i 00:50:29.600 --> 00:50:33.940 don't know i mean i thought i thought you i don't know i don't know how much you really expected 00:50:34.140 --> 00:50:37.800 this last episode to rescue the whole thing for you because i don't think you'd enjoyed the rest 00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:42.500 of it whereas for me i was like yeah i'm having a really good time with the the episode so far 00:50:42.780 --> 00:50:47.980 everything is to play for now and then i could and the thing is better they have they have ruined 00:50:48.370 --> 00:50:55.200 in a way they have ruined village of the angels the single best thing they did in jody whittaker's 00:50:55.820 --> 00:51:02.960 time because it does not stand alone i think that i think there we probably differ i mean as you said 00:51:03.240 --> 00:51:10.320 earlier you you kind of it lives or dies by what the last episode is like well for me if i'm enjoying 00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:14.980 watching the performances I'm enjoying the humor I'm enjoying listening to the dialogue 00:51:15.660 --> 00:51:19.980 I don't you know I don't have a time machine to go back and change my reactions to that I don't 00:51:20.300 --> 00:51:24.900 I don't put my reactions on hold until I see how it plays out before I decide whether I was enjoying 00:51:24.930 --> 00:51:32.940 it I was enjoying it and so you know genuinely I was kind of saying yep you know 50% I'll give 00:51:32.940 --> 00:51:39.140 the mark after five episodes and just say the this this was good but it in order for it to be 100% 00:51:39.160 --> 00:51:45.480 I've got to have a good final episode and it wasn't an awful final episode but it didn't really 00:51:46.080 --> 00:51:51.600 it didn't really crown it in the way I was hoping isn't this the isn't this the I mean I'm less 00:51:51.820 --> 00:51:57.760 spoiler averse than you are by by any stretch of the imagination but isn't this just a manifestation 00:51:57.930 --> 00:52:04.900 of that isn't this just a manifestation because I can never watch the flux again without knowing 00:52:04.980 --> 00:52:09.780 where it's going. So yes, I can enjoy the ride along the way, but I know it's going to crash 00:52:10.080 --> 00:52:19.460 into a building at the end. And, and so I can, yes, I can, I can laugh. I was going to say I 00:52:19.540 --> 00:52:25.780 could laugh at the hermit, but I didn't laugh at the hermit. You know, or I, I can go, oh, 00:52:25.940 --> 00:52:29.320 there's an exciting moment, but there weren't any, oh, there's some exciting moments except 00:52:29.540 --> 00:52:34.260 in Village of the Angels. But, you know, you can have a story that leads you along the way, 00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:46.600 But if the ending just sours you so badly, it isn't retroactively changing my enjoyment of the show, but it has prospectively changed my enjoyment of the show. 00:52:47.100 --> 00:52:50.260 Changes your future enjoyment of the past episode. 00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:51.860 Right. Right. So. 00:52:52.910 --> 00:52:54.920 Yeah. And I guess that's what I get done. 00:52:55.500 --> 00:53:07.460 Yeah. For me, for me, that effect is most strong if you have a final episode that, I don't know, kills off a character that you love or kind of is distasteful or something in some way. 00:53:07.610 --> 00:53:21.080 Whereas this episode was a bit of a mess, a bit disappointing. And I think I probably I mean, I don't know, but I think when I rewatch, I will probably still manage to enjoy the other episodes just as much as I did the first time round. 00:53:21.700 --> 00:53:23.940 And I'll probably think episode six. 00:53:24.600 --> 00:53:47.080 I feel a lot of the promises that were supposed to be made, Chekhov's promises, if you will, didn't happen. And, you know, I see myself absolutely looking at things that could just be inconsequential details and going, he can't, he can't leave that undone. 00:53:47.580 --> 00:53:52.740 He can't leave, die with the story that we just got. 00:53:53.520 --> 00:53:58.560 And which is an exact same thing as he can't leave the universe 99% destroyed. 00:53:59.060 --> 00:54:02.720 It all just feels like the same thing to me. 00:54:02.980 --> 00:54:09.020 It feels like promises that are being unkept from the writer to me. 00:54:09.120 --> 00:54:14.420 that that is in a way the thing we're going to have to put a pin in and and it'll be the not 00:54:14.930 --> 00:54:20.040 the final episode of the flux that decides what you know it doesn't live or die on that 00:54:20.310 --> 00:54:25.460 now going to have to live or die on whether these things actually do get resolved in the next that 00:54:25.570 --> 00:54:35.060 was kind of the promise of the flux this is a one story six episode uh thing and and so but i'm not 00:54:36.060 --> 00:54:41.280 i think we may we may have inferred more than was actually explicit in that i don't think so that 00:54:41.340 --> 00:54:46.920 was kind of my point at the beginning about the the the kind of way in which this structure is 00:54:47.320 --> 00:54:53.560 reflecting what is commonplace in other shows and we we come into it with our certain expectations 00:54:54.060 --> 00:55:00.360 around this is the way doctor who stories are structured and well okay well this one wasn't 00:55:00.380 --> 00:55:05.060 Yeah, I'm sure that we'll probably have more to say about some of these. 00:55:05.420 --> 00:55:07.180 I don't think I have any other. 00:55:07.900 --> 00:55:11.540 I'm not even going to go into the unit thing because I'm hoping that they do something and not. 00:55:13.160 --> 00:55:15.380 I'll put this down as my prediction. 00:55:15.660 --> 00:55:19.380 OK, so you can laugh at me when this turns out to be wrong. 00:55:20.140 --> 00:55:23.200 I'm sure there is going to be a unit story in the next three. 00:55:24.420 --> 00:55:25.320 In fact, I'll go further. 00:55:25.340 --> 00:55:27.800 I'll say it's not going to be the new year one. 00:55:28.340 --> 00:55:29.720 It's not going to be the last one. 00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:34.920 it's going to be the one in between how about that okay fair enough do you do you at least feel that 00:55:35.100 --> 00:55:42.820 kate stewart was tragically underused in any way shape or form in this um yeah i mean but i mean i 00:55:43.060 --> 00:55:48.000 i'm always going to say that because i love kate stewart and that i may not have put it at top of 00:55:48.080 --> 00:55:53.520 my list of characters with problems because kate stewart is already like i'm saying you know kate 00:55:53.600 --> 00:55:58.100 and the doctor and yaz fall into one camp because she's already a character we know and we don't 00:55:58.120 --> 00:56:05.600 necessarily need to get all that established. I did feel that in a way she was given a storyline 00:56:05.650 --> 00:56:11.340 that was very problematically difficult to realise within the Covid restrictions of this story 00:56:11.640 --> 00:56:18.980 because being the leader of Earth's resistance but never talking to anyone else in Earth's 00:56:19.060 --> 00:56:25.360 resistance is a pretty hard thing to pull off convincingly. Yeah just hiding skulking in a tunnel. 00:56:25.960 --> 00:56:31.320 yeah yeah i think i i think they they that should have been reflected in the plot and you 00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:36.580 you know she should never have been given that title you can play another role where you actually 00:56:37.120 --> 00:56:43.500 are working for the survival of the planet without it necessarily having to be leader of 00:56:44.040 --> 00:56:50.640 earth resistance army did we ever find out why she was in the tunnel no i don't think so is it 00:56:50.660 --> 00:56:52.740 Because that Artron energy detector she had? 00:56:53.400 --> 00:57:00.680 Well, that was a strange thing because the Artron energy detector was obviously a shortcut. 00:57:01.040 --> 00:57:15.060 Well, to me, it was obviously a shortcut to her coming across the set of The Doctor's Friends and getting from these are strangers who I must be suspicious of to these are allies who I can work together with. 00:57:15.580 --> 00:57:22.440 And you think, well, you've got to have some way that Kate gets convinced because she's obviously smart enough to be naturally suspicious. 00:57:23.140 --> 00:57:25.220 And the doctor isn't there to tell her everything's OK. 00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:30.360 And then literally a second later, the doctor is there and she could have just explained it instead. 00:57:30.680 --> 00:57:32.500 Yep. So we didn't need that app. 00:57:34.060 --> 00:57:37.340 It's just kind of weird. All right. 00:57:38.640 --> 00:57:40.580 Any final thoughts on? 00:57:41.460 --> 00:57:44.920 I guess the kind of, yeah, the final thing is, 00:57:44.920 --> 00:57:47.560 I don't know what I think about the Sontarans being, 00:57:48.080 --> 00:57:50.200 and we talked about it in episode two, 00:57:50.730 --> 00:57:53.560 the Sontarans being slightly cleverer than we expect 00:57:53.670 --> 00:57:58.460 in the sense of conducting a multi-temporal invasion of Earth. 00:57:58.960 --> 00:58:02.820 And now they are pulling one over on the Daleks and the Cybermen. 00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:06.140 There's no obvious reason why the Daleks and the Cybermen 00:58:06.420 --> 00:58:08.400 agree to this crazy truce. 00:58:08.980 --> 00:58:09.180 No. 00:58:09.720 --> 00:58:20.380 But at the same time, I kind of, they're fulfilling the role of you need some monster to invade Earth and they're going to look in their toy box and go, well, could we have the Daleks or could we have the Simon? 00:58:20.420 --> 00:58:22.700 Oh, we haven't played with the Sontarans for a while. 00:58:23.220 --> 00:58:36.780 And there is a logic in there that is like they are looking for the end point of where the flux will be so that they can be triumphant at the point that they get wiped out. 00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:42.120 And that's a really nice idea that works specifically for Sontarans. 00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:45.900 Like they're not motivated by survival in the way Daleks are. 00:58:46.440 --> 00:58:47.840 They're motivated by winning. 00:58:48.500 --> 00:58:55.400 So that was really good, except the doctor then has a flipping great speech explaining that's not what they're doing. 00:58:55.960 --> 00:59:06.200 And they're actually they're trapping all the Cybermen and Daleks in so they can use the mass of the Cybermen and Dalek armies to slow down the flux. 00:59:06.480 --> 00:59:11.520 and survive and this really to me had shades of kill the moon 00:59:14.660 --> 00:59:21.620 yeah the the relative mass of an army and a planet or several planets yeah well that one and 00:59:21.880 --> 00:59:27.520 and you know i still think the sunlight reaching the earth is is also in the kill the moon solidity 00:59:27.580 --> 00:59:39.460 But so the first invasion, the Halloween invasion, was that a different plan than the December? 00:59:40.300 --> 00:59:40.440 Yeah. 00:59:40.830 --> 00:59:42.680 The one that they invaded on Halloween, though. 00:59:43.160 --> 00:59:44.820 I don't know if that's the apocalypse, but. 00:59:45.260 --> 00:59:46.380 The War of the Sontarans. 00:59:46.740 --> 00:59:47.920 The War of the Sontarans. 00:59:47.950 --> 00:59:48.080 Yes. 00:59:48.460 --> 00:59:52.820 They invaded Earth on Halloween to do their temporal incursion thing. 00:59:53.540 --> 00:59:53.800 Yes. 00:59:54.420 --> 00:59:54.540 Okay. 00:59:54.620 --> 01:00:02.680 Was that part of the same plan with the Grand Serpent that happened in November 30th? 01:00:03.100 --> 01:00:10.440 Or is that a completely different redefined strategy that now no longer requires temporal incursions? 01:00:11.020 --> 01:00:12.000 See my point? 01:00:12.740 --> 01:00:14.760 Those should have been a year apart. 01:00:15.420 --> 01:00:20.860 I think the thing is, if the first one had worked, they wouldn't have done the second one. 01:00:21.200 --> 01:00:21.540 Okay. 01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:24.160 But would the Earth still have been destroyed? 01:00:24.260 --> 01:00:29.860 yeah i'm not sure i'm what the bit i'm not sure about is what what role the grand serpent would 01:00:29.860 --> 01:00:33.860 have played if the first one has succeeded because he didn't appear to be involved in that at all 01:00:34.440 --> 01:00:45.880 right yeah okay well believe it or not we'll be back here just after new year's 2022 talking about 01:00:46.080 --> 01:00:51.859 eve of the daleks because it's got to be a dalek story at new year that's that's the law except 01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:56.160 to spy full part one but i don't think that really counts as special because it was part of a series 01:00:56.440 --> 01:01:06.560 so yeah simon thank you for joining me this is a pleasure as always well listeners tell us what 01:01:06.560 --> 01:01:14.000 you think about doctor who the flux and i hope you will join us all again next time on fusion patrol 01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:20.799 we hope you've enjoyed listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast 01:01:21.660 --> 01:01:25.680 There are over 500 previous episodes available at FusionPatrol.com. 01:01:26.720 --> 01:01:29.840 Come join the conversation on Twitter, our website, or Facebook. 01:01:30.860 --> 01:01:35.160 Find out how you can become a supporter at Patreon.com slash Fusion Patrol. 01:01:36.220 --> 01:01:40.780 Supporters get early access to all regular episodes, bonus episodes, and more. 01:01:41.540 --> 01:01:46.760 There's even an optional podcast series where we're looking at the classic TV series, Babylon 5. 01:01:48.180 --> 01:01:50.820 Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf. 01:01:51.780 --> 01:01:53.480 This has been a Lone Locust production.