you're listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast each week we take a single
episode of a science fiction tv series or movie and overanalyze it to within an inch
of its life welcome to the discussion
Hello and welcome back to part two of our look at Doctor Who Flux.
I'm Eugene.
And I'm Simon.
And we're back to pick up our conversation right where we left off.
So let's pick up our conversation right where we left off.
Of course, you know, the question is, do you destroy the universe?
How does that actually play out in a story which involves time travel?
Because obviously the Doctor can go back a thousand years and the rest of the universe is there.
So, well, that was the same with the time war.
Exactly the same problem with the time war, which is why you got into this whole, you know, time lock.
Yeah.
Nonsense.
And it's a problem at first and then you repeat time lock enough times and then you stop thinking about it.
And you just appreciate the stories that you can tell within that context.
And I have been thinking about this because I think in some ways the things that Chibnall has done within these stories are not just flux.
It's the timeless children, which I certainly was not keen on when I first heard it.
And now I'm starting to get more interested in the stories that you can tell.
I had a similar reaction to the time war and wiping out all of the time lords and this whole lonely doctor thing.
because I was quite attached to, for all their kind of being incredibly boring, actually,
the whole Time Lord backstory and the possibility that we might run into them in some future stories.
But I equally then found that when Moffat started to set things up to revisit that with the War Doctor and so forth,
having a War Doctor, that was just, that was totally unacceptable.
And now with all of the kind of John Hurt audios and the day of the doctor and all of that, I'm totally sold on the concept.
It really adds a lot to the kind of bigger mythos and history of the show.
And so I'm not necessarily implacably opposed to the idea that you can't make these kind of tectonic shifts in the platform that you're using for your stories.
And I'm not too bothered about Doctor Who going dark for a while.
So if Chibnall was still around, I would personally prefer there not to be a reset.
I do not like resets myself.
I'm thinking what we have here is probably akin to e-space, a periodic section of time where we're operating in a universe that's not quite the same.
I know that's the wrong analogy, considering that this is a story about interdimensional operations.
But in other words, the Doctor can kick around the post-flux universe for a while before coming to the end,
sacrificing the life and bringing the universe back, which is almost certainly from some sort of sacrifice that will need to be made to do that.
What do you got? What do you want to look at? I might hit a few character points later, but I mean, just to kind of roll back a little bit, because I'm disagreeing on the fact that I think the story overall did an incredibly effective job of showing the actual consequences of the flux.
It didn't do, and I think you made this point,
it didn't do necessarily a great job in showing the consequences
in the final episode.
So, again, the problem for me were in those particular episodes
and the death of Jericho.
The death scene is excellent.
I mean, really, really a great kind of valedictory scene
for what I think had been one of my favourite characters
in this series and there were a lot of I thought really good characters in this series
but if I'd had to have a choice in the I know it started saying I want Carvinista to be the
doctor's companion but now turns out that he was the doctor's companion and actually I want Jericho
to travel with the doctor instead of Dan for sure he's great but he does get a top-notch death scene
you put your finger on it absolutely when you say that there is not enough weight to the fact that
yaz and dan and jericho have been quite close for what do we what do we think three four years
four years at least yeah it's at least four years and the impact that has on them is just
it is underplayed because as you say dan is dan is much closer or dan must be much closer the
point was you you were making as much closer to jericho than the doctor he's also much closer to
yaz than the doctor um so he's really you know he's now yes he had a trip in the tardis before
he spent the you know these years with yaz but he's now really yaz's friend rather than
the doctor's companion and he will be for quite some time you know it'll take a bit of journeying
in the TARDIS for those dynamics to even up I don't think there's any evidence that we're seeing
that on screen and I have found the whole the way in which Dan is portrayed it's another of those
slightly problematic things his reactions have all felt like they are slightly off it's felt like he
takes things in his stride slightly too much he bounces back too quickly and this is just another
example of that and it's been so noticeable we have we have commented on the fact well i think
it is particularly around dan and we have commented on the fact that that feels like it should it it
it's so marked that you that you question whether there is an intention behind it not necessarily
that it's marked enough for you to be sure there's an intention behind it but it now looks like there
I mean, you know, same caveat applies. We've still got three episodes. We don't know. But that's my guess now.
You know, that's actually funny because I went through.
That is very interesting.
I went through and wrote down all the characters that I could think of.
And I then went to each character and I put down some thoughts about what the heck was going on there or what I felt.
And I realized just as we were going into this that I had completely forgotten the doctor who was pretty much inconsequential throughout this entire story.
And I just now realized I forgot Dan.
Because in a way, I'd sort of, I'd kind of be, I'd be treating the Doctor and Yaz and Kate in a slightly different category because they're the kind of known characters, whereas everyone else is new within the story.
But, I mean, that's not to say they should be ignored.
Of course, there is a question of what their development is.
I got Yaz in here.
Well, yeah, tell us about Yaz then.
What did you think this was for her?
I think this was a very problematic situation that's very creepy.
So, I mean, ever since RTD brought the show back,
the hint of romance between the doctor and a companion has been a reality.
And it was very obvious throughout this,
but I mean, it was especially obvious in the final scenes.
And I think that,
and there's a problem here because of the,
of saying this is more problematic than the others because it's a same sex
sort of situation, but that is not it.
What it is, is the power dynamic between the two of them.
That's the right phrase for it.
Yaz idolizes the doctor.
Yaz is a doctor groupie.
Yaz worships the doctor.
Look at what would the doctor do written on her hand.
I don't know if that's a thing that shows up in Britain, but, you know,
ww jd is all over the place here what would jesus do that's that's what that is right yes
do you think this is this this is different from the the martha doctor thing i do think it's a bit
different from the martha doctor thing because i think the doctor was yes the doctor definitely
had or martha definitely had a thing for the doctor there is absolutely no doubt about that
uh it is totally one-sided it was totally one-sided if the doctor even noticed it he
quickly dismissed it because he was still smarting about rose that was the whole point of that story
it was it was that martha stopped pining for the damaged guy kind of thing yeah this doesn't
feel that way this doesn't have that loss or that that this is and yes is a lot and it there's a
more like there's a difference between having the hots for the doctor and worshiping the doctor
this this feels more like a cult kind of thing and i i don't know it just doesn't i i think it's
ill conceived because of the way it's portrayed not what they're portraying but the way they've
set Yaz up, I think they, I mean, she's a person who went to be a police officer. She took a career
to help people. She throws that away to join the doctor. And that's the one person we've seen
that we know she basically quit being police because work, you know, they kind of want you
to show up. Okay. I get that. But she has, she has, she's, she's a roadie. She's following the
doctor around. And this three-year obsession to do a completely pointless task that the doctor
gave her. If you think about it, the doctor says, you know, the universe is, there's probably some
smart people out there that'll know when the end of the universe is. I don't know where you are.
I don't know what's happened, but we're separated. So find those people. Well, the doctor couldn't
have known you were on 1901 Earth. And really? Do you really think you're going to find somebody
on 1901 earth that's going to know about yeah now i don't think it's um i mean i think it
i think i think the the parallels to the year of martha jones are actually quite strong i don't
think it's that different from that relationship but martha jones at least had a a task that
there was something about the way the doctor was portrayed in the in those episodes and
martha was martha was not fomenting with that the the disciple of the doctor she was yeah she
was actually a kind of evangelical preacher for him so but did she believe it she was
yeah totally she was she was i don't know partially of course we don't see much of
martha's year but a little bit but yeah and it went somewhere it actually accomplished something
as well but no i i don't know it just doesn't yaz doesn't feel martha figured it out in the
year apart you know she she figured out what was what was what well i i yeah i mean i i think this
story is leading to there being a figuring out but i don't think we were going to get that in this
because well we would we would have got it in this if you've been right and this was yaz's last
episode but it's not so i think that's that's still going to be resolved in some way i mean
it's interesting because for me the problematic side of that i mean i do i do feel that yaz has
been underdeveloped i think that chibnall is he he does write really good interesting characters
and the first series saw him actually develop them in quite satisfying ways.
And then I think that it felt to me like they were coasting in the second series.
And I like Yaz a lot.
I'm not quite sure it's recovered from that kind of coasting.
But it's an improvement.
And the problem here for me was that the Doctor has,
in order to kind of give Yaz something,
well, I don't know if it's in order for this,
but it, Yaz has something to react against
because the doctor shuts her out.
And this is big and very explicit.
I've complained in other respects
about not being, not signaling things clearly enough.
Well, this was pretty strongly signaled.
The doctor is shutting Yaz out at the beginning
and at the end, she is letting Yaz in.
And so the doctor has been on a journey.
So, okay, why is that a problem, Simon?
Well, the problem is that I have no idea why the doctor was shutting Yaz out in the first place.
It's not explored at all.
She's just doing it.
And it's like, oh, OK, that's going to drive the plot for a bit.
And then equally, the problem is at the end, I have no idea what was the thing that, I mean, there's been so much rushing around.
And obviously, there are umpteen things that could have caused the doctor to go, you know, oh, my God, what have I done to Yaz?
you know, the fact that as a result of my secrecy and my actions,
Jericho got fried by the flux and now Yaz is distraught.
But, you know, that might be something that...
But I have no idea.
I have no idea why the doctor suddenly becomes very contrite
about having treated Yaz very poorly in that respect.
And, I mean, obviously she's doing the right thing,
but dramatically I want to know why.
Yeah, I mean, every darn DC superhero show that they have on the CW, which is a network over here that puts together the Arrow and the Flash and all those.
The biggest thing about them is that none of the plots would get driven if one person didn't keep a secret from another person.
It happens all the stinking time and you're just shouting at them.
Just tell them, why are you keeping that a secret?
But I don't mind people if there's a reason.
There's a reason, but there's never a reason.
That's the point.
There's never a good reason.
It's always just like, I'm just that kind of person.
I'm just going to keep this to myself.
And it's like, no, that's the person you should tell.
And that's exactly what this should happen here.
The doctor found out that she has amnesia.
That's an easy metaphor to give to Yaz, who doesn't know, for all we know, knows nothing about regenerations or other past lives.
and she she says i found out that i may be missing some years of my life my memories
and carvenista or this people i want to track that down that's all it needed to be said well
absolutely and i but it i don't necessarily have a problem with her even keeping that secret it's
it's not i'm taking you into danger and i'm not going to tell you yes but but that's okay people
do people do stupid things people do things that are wrong that that that's dramatically interesting
and i'm there for that but i need to know why they're doing it and so i need to know is the
motivation is is the doctor you know is it because what is it is it is is she is she is she is she
scared that there is some part of her that she is or should feel ashamed of is it that she
it undermines her confidence because she you know she's i don't know though right it's like the what
from what we know of the doc because the doctor is a kind of ever ever changing ever evolving
personality anyway we need we need a little bit of character work with this doctor to explain
how we how we expect her to react to a revelation like that we can't all
project how we would react in that situation because we would all react differently and it's
like you're almost certainly thinking yes i would react in a sane and rational way and i would
explain to people that you know this is what's going on so we need to know why the doctor isn't
doing that you need to know why the doctor isn't doing that what is it about her personality that
means that she has to keep secrets from the house even when that harms yet even when that harms
herself that there has to be a reason for it and and none is in evidence and there has been
absolutely nothing to make that even even slightly understood it's just a thing the doctor has done
to drive the quote unquote drama of the situation.
And it's all handled so badly.
It's all been handled so badly.
And it just doesn't.
And let me, you know,
if we want to say characters don't have logical plots,
let's look at Carvanista for a second.
I don't think I managed to get to all this.
The very start of the flux,
as in the flux, the series,
the doctor has gone looking for Carvanista
because he's found out Carvanista was a division agent.
Okay, fine.
Carvanista tries to kill the doctor.
And yes, somebody doesn't even know.
Carvanista tries to pretend to be,
he phrases his monologue about,
now I'm off to the final layer of the planet Earth.
Like I'm off to destroy the planet.
How?
Hmm?
Why?
But he's a completely sympathetic character
by the end of the show.
And it's not because he's gone for growth.
It's not because he's gone through growth.
It's because the writer just keeps slipping out little bits and suddenly he starts behaving differently.
And, you know, he kidnaps Dan.
He gets there early for no logical reason except some tiny thingy happened that got him there first.
Which, you know, could tie into the whole thing of Di getting kidnapped.
Because I think Di's kidnap must somehow tie to Dan.
that i think those two things have to be there again it could be just inconsistently bad writing
like how do we why does he get here first i don't know give him a time boost okay whatever um yeah
that's fine it could be it could be that but he gets there first he's mean to dan he's he's violent
to him he's uh locks him in a cage i mean he's ostensibly there to rescue him but then he then
he turns out he was the doctor's companion and then and then we get oh well i can't tell you
about that because I've got this thing in my brain. It'll kill me instantly if I tell you
anything about it. Oh, okay. Well, I guess I'll just drop the subject. Not, hey, let me see if
the sonic screwdriver can fix that for you. Let me get a medical scan and see if that's really true.
Nothing. My take on Carbonista is not that at all. I mean, I thought that he was written pretty
consistently but i felt that again it was partly to do with i think the problematic structure and
editing of episode one was we didn't we didn't it was very difficult for us to get a handle on
who he was because you think murdering the doctor fit yeah totally with our later revelations
yeah ex-companion of the doctor i'm just gonna kill her yeah because all because all the way
through he's quite um he's quite kind of uh violent he's quite what what what you know what's
the word he's quick he's quick to anger he's he's got a he's got a temper on him and he's incredibly
incredibly angry with having been uh rejected and abandoned by the doctor so there she turns up yeah
no i think that totally fits with with what we're told about him seems murder might be over the line
but okay i'm i said i he's a pretty violent guy i i think i mean that's what's quite interesting
about him he's like lila plus but wouldn't he i don't know again he knows the doctor he he does
know the doctor he's obviously been the doctor's companion well he says as much why that doesn't
kill him i don't know but all right um and he must know that things will be better if he had the
doctor help out with the flux rather than kill the doctor right at the moment the universe is about to
be destroyed because obviously they knew that the lupari knew because they spent their millions and
millions and millions of whatever they use dog biscuits or dog euros or whatever it is to build
their seven billion spacecraft to fly to the earth to rescue seven billion people individually
you know uh but and and do you do you not think it's a plot hole that the earth didn't notice
that they were encompassed in the lupari shield for six weeks because they were um not three
minutes we don't we don't get to see what effect the lupa is it visible i mean what effect does
that have well it's it you when we see it it's obviously visible and it's supposedly surrounding
the earth so that means no sunlight no it didn't yeah but we do see sunlight so sunlight can
obviously on the earth we see sunlight when we see the lupari shield no it's not transparent
so but how how is how is the earth sunlit if it if the if it's not possible for light to pass
through it well i think the answer is how would it be at writing that's my point no no continuity
error that's a rather circular argument let let me let me rephrase that isn't yours head canon
the ships must be transparent isn't that just i'm i'm making that up too because it's not in evidence
in the show let well let me let me ask you no i mean i think i think i've made certain assumptions
about it but you're suggesting you should be able to see the lupari ships from earth i think actually
I think you should not be able to see anything from Earth because there's no light.
Well, there is light.
There is light.
So if the light is getting in, how is it you would be able to see the ships?
That's what I'm getting at.
I agree that if we had in any way established that the Lupari ships weren't opaque.
Well, we're seeing sunlight.
Does that not establish it?
No.
The only time we ever see the Lupari ships, again,
it's either headcanon that they must be transparent.
When we literally see they are not transparent,
every time we see the Lupari ships, they are not transparent.
Light is not passing through them.
No, I'm not.
What I'm saying is if you're on the surface of the Earth
and there is sunlight reaching the surface of the Earth,
if you're in that position, because I don't know whether we see them
from that position, because they must be shot to the sky.
Yeah, kind of.
we see the blue sky in places yeah so doesn't that mean you can't see them from earth well
that's the circular logic i mean they're both we are presented with two things we are presented
with a shield that you cannot see through we we see that but hang on we could we we you're
specifically talking about what's visible from the surface of the planet aren't you
i'm can you see through them from the surface of the planet wasn't that the original question
and the answer to that is if we have any shots they aren't visible in it so yes so
unless it's a mistake well that wouldn't be a mistake how would that be a mistake
it would be a mistake because it's sloppy but that's my point what no i sorry explain what
the mistake is okay here here is ignore what you can see from earth ignore that for a second i
We see, we see the, no, no.
Okay.
No, no.
Ignore that first.
Let's establish our facts.
Our facts are that we see the shield.
We, the audience, see the shield in space.
It is not translucent.
It is opaque.
We see that.
We see it when it surrounds the earth.
We see it when it is blocking out the Suntarans and view of the flux because they can't see it or the Daleks and the Cybermen.
And then they open it up, they break it apart, and you can see the flux.
The Lupari shield does not let you see through it.
Does not let light pass through it.
We see that.
They then wrap it around the Earth, and somehow Earth still has light.
Now, you are assuming that must mean you can pass light through the shield.
And I am assuming that it is just poor storytelling.
Neither is in evidence in the script because they are they conflict with each other.
The shield is both opaque and it is apparently transparent and no reconciliation is given to those two errors.
It's I don't know how to make it any more black and white than that.
We we can see the shield can't be seen through.
And yet we can't see it can be it can't be seen through from the surface of the planet.
And isn't that the isn't that what are you saying?
It's only transparent one way.
I'm saying that if light can pass through it so that light reaches the surface of the planet, how would you be able to see it from the surface of the planet?
You wouldn't be able to see the shield from the surface of the planet if it were transparent.
Right.
I agree with that.
But what I'm saying is it's not transparent.
It's like you couldn't see anything because there would be no light getting to the Earth.
That's what I'm saying.
I'm saying every scene we see during the period from Halloween to December 5th, where there is light on the earth, is a oversight on behalf of the people making it.
It's just something they've just not bothered to think about.
Except it's weird because they did say there was a three-minute eclipse when the shield formed.
But again, that's it.
Well, I may have that wrong.
I thought the three-minute.
Oh, no, maybe you.
No.
I was thinking three minute eclipse was the Sontarans, but no, actually that was the Lupari, wasn't it?
It must have. Well, they both happened at the same time.
Just as Lupari shield closed, the Sontarans arrived. Yeah.
Ah, yeah. So it could have been the Sontarans. Yeah.
So.
I don't know. I mean, that seems it seemed like I can't.
I to me, those are consistent. If you if you have sunlight on the surface, you shouldn't be able to see them.
which is not what i'm fine yeah i'm not saying that i'm not that's not what i'm saying and i'm
absolutely not saying that i'm saying if there were sunlight then they would have to be transparent
and you would not see them well that is absolutely true but they are not transparent and yet somehow
we still see sunlight it's the sunlight that's the problem not the sheet not the ships yeah but
what has to be true is that the sunlight has to reach the surface of the planet doesn't have to
be that the ships are transparent that's not the only way that the sunlight could be getting there
but surely that's just headcanon right you're just you're just coming up with an excuse
for something that they didn't bother to i'm starting with i'm starting with what's observable
on screen if we if we had if we had observed that the the ships were blocking the light to
the planet and there was still sunlight on the planet that's a problem but if we if we're
observing that light is reaching the surface of the planet and you can't see the ships from the
surface of the planet that doesn't seem to me to be a problem we do see the ships blocking light to
the planet when they surround the planet the sunlight is hitting them and we can see them
which is the light reflecting off of them not passing through them and we cannot see the earth
below them so we we see it both ways we see a planet completely enclosed in something that
you can't see through and we see inside the planet where they don't notice that their planet
has been surrounded by a shield it's just it's probably a bonus episode um that we're gonna
we're gonna just cut this out and put this in as the bonus episode what the heck with that shield
but anyway let's see do any other things i just want to hit because i know we're running long
but and who knows joseph williamson okay never heard of the williamson tunnels turns out they're
real oh yeah okay yep that's that's just the thing i'd like to go see that in addition to the
under seattle thing from the night stalker now that's on my list of places that i have to go
underground well maybe they're connected maybe maybe we can have a british version of the night
stalker and it could be down in those tunnels i bet their website is just hit chock-a-block now
after this uh after this doctor who assuming people knew it was real to begin with and know
to look it up online i don't think any americans did they probably won somewhere but um bell
Vinder I mean well he came in handy once in a while but all right well and Vinder were really
good I liked I liked I liked both their characters and they were well used within the story and it
was a simple arc that was introduced as the you know here's here's the problem well Vinder was a
little bit more complicated we didn't get his backstory until episode three but here's the
problem they have been separated and they need to get back together and the story is they travel to
to find each other and the resolution is they find each other yeah it's kind of simple but that to me
was much more satisfying than a lot of the other character arcs in this i just i did all right i'll
i'll go with that uh but from the standpoint of the six hours that they had to tell the story of
the flux i feel like we suffered because we had arcs like this thrown in there that didn't really
have much to do with it it was i so we ended we ended with a lot of the doctor talking about this
and talking and talking and talking in the swarm and as you're talking and talking and talking
and explaining stuff that they should have been showing us in some way and they didn't have time
to do that because they i'll use the word they wasted it on bell and vendor i i i think i i'm
inclined to agree with your point that they should have shown us more than they told us there was a
lot of exposition in this that was probably as a result of them putting more in than was needed for
six hours of television but for me but the bell and vendor storyline was a nice example of how
they were actually using a story arc within the episode to actually show us stuff and to to kind
of build build the universe i was gonna say world building it's universe building that they do
through for example like one of my absolute favorite uh scenes in the whole um storyline
was the was the the sermon on the mount bit the as you're getting recruits for for passenger
or whatever and what what the vinder and bell storyline allowed you to do was to provide
witnesses to those scenes so that you had a kind of purpose to to seeing these little vignettes
these little elements of the universe and what the flux was doing to it so to me it should have been
more of that kind of stuff not less but but in the same vein they used uh they used in episode two
the whole well and three uh we can just bounce yaz and dan all over the place because timey
and so they could have witnessed those our characters could have witnessed those things
our characters could have had uh could have had those revelations instead of
well kind of but i mean the the the core again their quest was not only was their quest
unnecessary to the unraveling of flux yes we got to see the sermon on the mount which is
the only bit of it that that really had a lot of anything about what the flux was doing to the
universe and we had the you know she goes he follows she gets taken away just before he gets
there just a lot of excess that didn't really drive anything unless you just were invested
in watching Vinder and Bell on screen and I'm not um I mean I didn't dislike them I didn't
dislike them but you know they were not advancing much of the story and you know the whole all the
all the stuff we saw with Williamson most of it was completely nonsensical and it well that wasn't
connected to Bell and Vinder no it wasn't I'm just picking another completely random stray
thread of nonsense that they're wasting okay well no okay well i would right again because
chuck some of that out and put it into the actual telling us of the story of the flux and
and what's going on or or i don't know coming up with a better ending for swarm and azure
or explaining to us why azure was was trapped in a body of a woman in was it iceland greenland
i don't see the connection between the bell and vinda story and the williamson story because i'm
not making a connection between them there was no connection between them other than they were both
kind of unnecessary yeah but what no what what i'm saying is i think that bell and bell and
vinda's the the story there was a as i say a kind of a satisfying complete story that was told
in it that was there was structured in a way that gave you the introduction and the and the
resolution and williamson's wasn't so i i'm really not seeing that parallel it felt to me like when
you get introduced to williamson in that first episode there's a kind of fairly random scene
of him just arguing with the guy stonehouse about why he's building his tunnels we don't get any
we don't get any of the kind of significance of the tunnels or any any kind of deeper background
it's very very just random and then in the in the conclusion to williamson's story it's basically
just the doctor saying oh we've got to keep you we've got to keep you safe because you're
you're important to history which is pretty lame for a start but then it's what's worse about it
is he just does it and what on earth is his motivation for doing that at that point it's just
getting him out of the story so although i liked the concept of these tunnels and it it it was you
know it's a pretty cool idea and a kind of cool visual and i liked williamson's performance i
thought the actor did a great job you know kind of wandering around and and spouting this stuff
but the actual execution of the character arc within this was at the polar opposite end for
me at any rate from the bell and vinder storyline in terms of of being coherent i i i definitely
will say the bell and vinder story was a bit was more coherent i'm just saying that neither of them
advanced the overall story much and i could see the bell and vinder story being a the dr light
episode for the season if this had been a a regular season of episodes of dr who and maybe
that's where the germ of that idea came from but it was i think the doctor light was was wasted
material here dan and dan and yas and jericho for that too yeah i think there was a lot of yeah
there's a lot of doctor light in this you know the williamson is kind of fulfilling the same
kind of role as mary seacole her story was a little more satisfying but equally it didn't really
I thought I thought her story was satisfying but it was it was too short you know there was
at the end of it you I think we did say in our little look at it that you know you could leave
the story there but I want to see her back and we did leave the story there and it did have a
conclusion of sorts but equally when we talked about Claire at the end of Village of the Angels
I said well I want to see her back because I felt like her story wasn't concluded so it did feel
much more important that she came back in the final episode yeah but you know again the the
the angel story the absolute hands down best episode of the six um from terms of sitting and
watching argue uh you know in terms of sitting down and watching an hour of television going
okay well that was that was a tense hour of television that had me gripped argue with that
that too was you know in the end inconsequential that that entire story could have been told
when the angel captured the doctor at the beginning of the episode transport and we're done and that's
it's out and they could have spent that time also working on fleshing out the flux storyline
a bit um but you know here's the thing about fleshing out the flux storyline it's not very good
well right i mean it's not very seem to be i don't this story maybe it could have been better
Could have had less time spent on it so they could spend more time on that storyline.
It wasn't very good.
And I'm kind of sympathetic to the idea that there were storylines in this that I liked better than others.
And in some cases, I felt, yeah, they should have got more time.
I could have had a lot more Swarm and Azure, but I didn't necessarily need as much Sontaran.
Lamest villain end ever in Doctor Who?
Swarm and Azure?
It certainly it certainly did not. Yeah, it did not. It did not live up to the the kind of jeopardy that they brought early on.
I mean, when we when you're first introduced to to Swarm in that prison and the yeah, the way he kind of absorbs people and everything and the fact that he kills Texio and that that kind of adds a level, if indeed he has, that adds a level of jeopardy.
I wouldn't say I wouldn't write off the whole ending, but the bit where the Welsh government built and I'm normally so wrapped up in Doctor Who, I don't notice locations.
But the Welsh government building just doesn't feel like a temple to me.
I'm sorry. And it's just it didn't even look like the temple of Atropos that we saw earlier in the series.
Exactly. It looks like the Welsh government building. And yeah, the time just sort of waved a hand at them and they disappeared. But the reason I would say don't write the episode off is because I think that as your speech to the doctor at Division earlier in the episode, the whole, you know, why is it what you fight for? Why is that better than what we will bring? And the doctor's sort of not really having a good answer because otherwise, why are we here?
that I mean I just thought I I thought the actress um Rochenda Sandell playing as you was just
phenomenal and and and the kind of prosthetics and everything just everything about her was just
it was it was absolutely superb so I I thought that particular scene was one of the kind of
best doctor villain showdowns that we have had in Doctor Who but I mean it went downhill after that
To be fair to that question, why is what you stand for?
I mean, that's that's the refrain of villains throughout all throughout all drama.
But done but done with such genuineness and such curiosity.
It's I know it's partly in the writing, partly in the delivery, I guess.
Let me ask the question, because I, again, not having certainly never going back to episode three again.
You know, even when it comes out on Blu-ray, it's probably just not script the whole thing.
I'll own it.
Your synopsis.
I'll own it, but I'll.
In episode one, Swarm is played by a different actor.
Yeah.
He then transforms by absorbing and they do it, which I assume is some sort of subtle or less than subtle parallel with regeneration.
Well, I don't know, because it involves absorbing another creature's life force.
And I, yeah, when I saw that, again, it's one of the problems, I think, with the first episode was I assumed this was the monster we were seeing.
This was the concept that Swarm would absorb all the people that he came across.
And each time he absorbed someone, it would add a kind of a difference to his his character, his, you know, his whole who how he looks, how he acts, how he sounds.
Because it happened the first time. Why didn't it happen again?
What actor played Swarm in episode two in the flashbacks?
You mean episode three?
Three, sorry.
When the flashback to Atropos and the capture of them,
was it the actor that was in prison or was it the actor that after it was?
Yeah.
I couldn't tell.
I wouldn't have known they were different actors.
Oh, I thought that was ultimately,
so to answer the question I had about episode one,
about, you know, why does he change then, but never again?
I think probably, if I'm being slightly cynical,
the answer is, for production reasons, in episode three,
it really, really helps you understand what's going on,
that they are, that he looks completely different in the flashbacks
and sounds completely different in the flashbacks.
Does he look different?
Yes.
See, I don't think much of the prosthetics and the makeup.
Oh, I love that.
they're just crystals stuck on somebody's head painted blue or whatever but they but they also
all of the they're they're very flexible and very expressive i mean i think generally the prosthetics
throughout the season were of a high standard because there are some tarant episodes where
oh yeah they just don't register at all and in this you know you're getting a lot around the eyes
and the the kind of the way you know just the movements of the the mouth when they're looking
a bit i mean even the stupid chocolate scene you get a santaan looking embarrassed and there are
costumes where you could not have done that oh i agree the santaan costumes are much better than
they used to be well i thought there was that kind of mobility in the in the ravagers makeup as well
even frankly i didn't i didn't think the ravagers were we're worried wearing much in the way of
prosthetics uh you know stick some crystals on their bald head cap uh nose prosthetic paint and
blue they were blue right bluish azure was blue azure was azure yeah what what color was swarm
was brown was he brown okay tim shaw or purple he definitely had some teeth like protuberances
they weren't teeth they were more crystalline they weren't i know i know it wasn't i did get
the tim tim shaw vibe yeah i mean i didn't wonder if he was tim shaw at the beginning and i also
wondered if he was the master but i'm glad to say and and the grand serpent that's more and the
grand serpent why wasn't he the master that would have kind of made more sense but at the end
it doesn't really matter because he's been placed on a six by six asteroid in space with no air so
uh dead right well obviously not dead or he would actually have been dead i mean i think we may
get him back i really really i mean craig parkinson's a wonderful villain in the early
series of line of duty so he's he's quite recognizable for a british audience he was
underused in this yes i i i'm glad the grand serpent was a distinct you know it's it it's a
it's a cool thing that whatever she called it the die binary yeah symbiotic are you thinking
but yeah just killing people with your own personal snake very very cool but i didn't
understand what his motivation was we get that he is this former oh he's gonna he's gonna wipe out
the suntarans how did he get deposed and what is his plan now i don't yeah all you know all
completely underdeveloped yeah all the way through the unit storyline you get what his short-term goal
is and you see what he's doing and that feels effective to me you know he's and didn't he order
didn't he order the missiles launched yeah what happened i don't know it sounded like he ordered
their launch and we never saw anything more about it we never saw planet earth wiped out bits of it
i mean it just well it's i mean it's presumably how the santaarns got through the invasion but
yeah i mean you're right there's no i don't recognize the actor who played the grand serpent
and I you know I I did joke earlier that he should have been the master and I kind of actually meant
that is that is the first actor they've had in a long time on Doctor Who that when I looked at that
guy I said I hope that's the master he actually that's the master right yeah that's the master
yeah no you're up he doesn't need to be jumping up and down and going
crazy master that guy was the master i uh yeah and i i thought the the weakest point in his
performance was when he got all flustered because the doctor rescued herself most of the time he is
just incredibly sinister and understated but that emphasizes his power and the master's all about
power so yeah he's he's roger donato without the goatee but yeah yeah no you're absolutely right
he is one of the most master actors we've had yeah oh you've made me sad now that's it that is
i mean the grand serpent could be a great character if you know with a bit bit more
building up but it's yeah the master would be even better oh yeah yeah he was he was uh
I don't know.
I really was disappointed about that.
I thought, you know, I found it hard to believe that the Master didn't show up in this.
Well, the forces of darkness in their Master are forecast to turn up at the end of the Doctor's, what did you say?
Nothing lasts forever, no regeneration, no life.
Yeah.
Maybe they're actually just going to blow this up.
The whole universe is going to collapse and they're going to just let Russell T. Davies start all over again.
Get out of that, Russell.
Now, I think what is happening there is I find it quite regrettable.
It's the whole your, you know, your song is over slash trends.
We must create a sense of foreboding to build up to the doctor's regeneration.
No, no, thank you.
We don't need that.
Have the Doctor just charge in something in a crazy, big-hearted way,
save someone else and die as a consequence, and then regenerate, please.
I think the only time that I thought that was done kind of okay, kind of, is Legopolis.
Yeah, the moment was prepared for.
But this is the moment being over-prepared for, in my view.
Right.
And you definitely got this kind of death vibe in Legopolis.
I mean the other thing is seven years of Tom Baker you kind of felt like he earned it yeah
and it needed Jody and like yeah I mean none of them or whatever it is none of them have done
that long enough we're all used to the fact I mean the other one I guess would be Chris Eccleston
because it's about hand-holding isn't it with Tom Baker how many of the fans would there have been
left after seven years who've been watching it in the John Pertwee years it would have become a
minority i imagine and so you need to handhold them through to the next doctor whereas on the
kind of three-year cycle it's like well yeah sure there'll be some new fans who've joined since
the last regeneration but most people know you get a new doctor from time to time yeah deal
yeah uh well as long as somebody knocks four times is it four times yeah yeah it's just really
a shame i just really am sadly disappointed in in the flux i'm i'm disappointed in the ending
i'm honestly surprised and you're surprised i'm disappointed uh i i thought i thought well i
don't know i mean i thought i thought you i don't know i don't know how much you really expected
this last episode to rescue the whole thing for you because i don't think you'd enjoyed the rest
of it whereas for me i was like yeah i'm having a really good time with the the episode so far
everything is to play for now and then i could and the thing is better they have they have ruined
in a way they have ruined village of the angels the single best thing they did in jody whittaker's
time because it does not stand alone i think that i think there we probably differ i mean as you said
earlier you you kind of it lives or dies by what the last episode is like well for me if i'm enjoying
watching the performances I'm enjoying the humor I'm enjoying listening to the dialogue
I don't you know I don't have a time machine to go back and change my reactions to that I don't
I don't put my reactions on hold until I see how it plays out before I decide whether I was enjoying
it I was enjoying it and so you know genuinely I was kind of saying yep you know 50% I'll give
the mark after five episodes and just say the this this was good but it in order for it to be 100%
I've got to have a good final episode and it wasn't an awful final episode but it didn't really
it didn't really crown it in the way I was hoping isn't this the isn't this the I mean I'm less
spoiler averse than you are by by any stretch of the imagination but isn't this just a manifestation
of that isn't this just a manifestation because I can never watch the flux again without knowing
where it's going. So yes, I can enjoy the ride along the way, but I know it's going to crash
into a building at the end. And, and so I can, yes, I can, I can laugh. I was going to say I
could laugh at the hermit, but I didn't laugh at the hermit. You know, or I, I can go, oh,
there's an exciting moment, but there weren't any, oh, there's some exciting moments except
in Village of the Angels. But, you know, you can have a story that leads you along the way,
But if the ending just sours you so badly, it isn't retroactively changing my enjoyment of the show, but it has prospectively changed my enjoyment of the show.
Changes your future enjoyment of the past episode.
Right. Right. So.
Yeah. And I guess that's what I get done.
Yeah. For me, for me, that effect is most strong if you have a final episode that, I don't know, kills off a character that you love or kind of is distasteful or something in some way.
Whereas this episode was a bit of a mess, a bit disappointing. And I think I probably I mean, I don't know, but I think when I rewatch, I will probably still manage to enjoy the other episodes just as much as I did the first time round.
And I'll probably think episode six.
I feel a lot of the promises that were supposed to be made, Chekhov's promises, if you will, didn't happen. And, you know, I see myself absolutely looking at things that could just be inconsequential details and going, he can't, he can't leave that undone.
He can't leave, die with the story that we just got.
And which is an exact same thing as he can't leave the universe 99% destroyed.
It all just feels like the same thing to me.
It feels like promises that are being unkept from the writer to me.
that that is in a way the thing we're going to have to put a pin in and and it'll be the not
the final episode of the flux that decides what you know it doesn't live or die on that
now going to have to live or die on whether these things actually do get resolved in the next that
was kind of the promise of the flux this is a one story six episode uh thing and and so but i'm not
i think we may we may have inferred more than was actually explicit in that i don't think so that
was kind of my point at the beginning about the the the kind of way in which this structure is
reflecting what is commonplace in other shows and we we come into it with our certain expectations
around this is the way doctor who stories are structured and well okay well this one wasn't
Yeah, I'm sure that we'll probably have more to say about some of these.
I don't think I have any other.
I'm not even going to go into the unit thing because I'm hoping that they do something and not.
I'll put this down as my prediction.
OK, so you can laugh at me when this turns out to be wrong.
I'm sure there is going to be a unit story in the next three.
In fact, I'll go further.
I'll say it's not going to be the new year one.
It's not going to be the last one.
it's going to be the one in between how about that okay fair enough do you do you at least feel that
kate stewart was tragically underused in any way shape or form in this um yeah i mean but i mean i
i'm always going to say that because i love kate stewart and that i may not have put it at top of
my list of characters with problems because kate stewart is already like i'm saying you know kate
and the doctor and yaz fall into one camp because she's already a character we know and we don't
necessarily need to get all that established. I did feel that in a way she was given a storyline
that was very problematically difficult to realise within the Covid restrictions of this story
because being the leader of Earth's resistance but never talking to anyone else in Earth's
resistance is a pretty hard thing to pull off convincingly. Yeah just hiding skulking in a tunnel.
yeah yeah i think i i think they they that should have been reflected in the plot and you
you know she should never have been given that title you can play another role where you actually
are working for the survival of the planet without it necessarily having to be leader of
earth resistance army did we ever find out why she was in the tunnel no i don't think so is it
Because that Artron energy detector she had?
Well, that was a strange thing because the Artron energy detector was obviously a shortcut.
Well, to me, it was obviously a shortcut to her coming across the set of The Doctor's Friends and getting from these are strangers who I must be suspicious of to these are allies who I can work together with.
And you think, well, you've got to have some way that Kate gets convinced because she's obviously smart enough to be naturally suspicious.
And the doctor isn't there to tell her everything's OK.
And then literally a second later, the doctor is there and she could have just explained it instead.
Yep. So we didn't need that app.
It's just kind of weird. All right.
Any final thoughts on?
I guess the kind of, yeah, the final thing is,
I don't know what I think about the Sontarans being,
and we talked about it in episode two,
the Sontarans being slightly cleverer than we expect
in the sense of conducting a multi-temporal invasion of Earth.
And now they are pulling one over on the Daleks and the Cybermen.
There's no obvious reason why the Daleks and the Cybermen
agree to this crazy truce.
No.
But at the same time, I kind of, they're fulfilling the role of you need some monster to invade Earth and they're going to look in their toy box and go, well, could we have the Daleks or could we have the Simon?
Oh, we haven't played with the Sontarans for a while.
And there is a logic in there that is like they are looking for the end point of where the flux will be so that they can be triumphant at the point that they get wiped out.
And that's a really nice idea that works specifically for Sontarans.
Like they're not motivated by survival in the way Daleks are.
They're motivated by winning.
So that was really good, except the doctor then has a flipping great speech explaining that's not what they're doing.
And they're actually they're trapping all the Cybermen and Daleks in so they can use the mass of the Cybermen and Dalek armies to slow down the flux.
and survive and this really to me had shades of kill the moon
yeah the the relative mass of an army and a planet or several planets yeah well that one and
and you know i still think the sunlight reaching the earth is is also in the kill the moon solidity
But so the first invasion, the Halloween invasion, was that a different plan than the December?
Yeah.
The one that they invaded on Halloween, though.
I don't know if that's the apocalypse, but.
The War of the Sontarans.
Yes.
They invaded Earth on Halloween to do their temporal incursion thing.
Yes.
Okay.
Was that part of the same plan with the Grand Serpent that happened in November 30th?
Or is that a completely different redefined strategy that now no longer requires temporal incursions?
See my point?
Those should have been a year apart.
I think the thing is, if the first one had worked, they wouldn't have done the second one.
Okay.
But would the Earth still have been destroyed?
yeah i'm not sure i'm what the bit i'm not sure about is what what role the grand serpent would
have played if the first one has succeeded because he didn't appear to be involved in that at all
right yeah okay well believe it or not we'll be back here just after new year's 2022 talking about
eve of the daleks because it's got to be a dalek story at new year that's that's the law except
to spy full part one but i don't think that really counts as special because it was part of a series
so yeah simon thank you for joining me this is a pleasure as always well listeners tell us what
you think about doctor who the flux and i hope you will join us all again next time on fusion patrol
we hope you've enjoyed listening to fusion patrol a listener supported podcast
There are over 500 previous episodes available at FusionPatrol.com.
Come join the conversation on Twitter, our website, or Facebook.
Find out how you can become a supporter at Patreon.com slash Fusion Patrol.
Supporters get early access to all regular episodes, bonus episodes, and more.
There's even an optional podcast series where we're looking at the classic TV series, Babylon 5.
Our music is Fight the Future by Amber Wolf.
This has been a Lone Locust production.