WEBVTT 00:00:00.020 --> 00:00:04.780 Our discussion of Doctor Who Flux will be presented in two parts, 00:00:05.240 --> 00:00:07.220 with this part coming out a little bit early, 00:00:07.920 --> 00:00:12.300 and part two will come out on our regular release date. 00:00:23.020 --> 00:00:26.300 You're listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast. 00:00:27.600 --> 00:00:35.360 Each week, we take a single episode of a science fiction TV series or movie and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life. 00:00:36.030 --> 00:00:37.160 Welcome to the discussion. 00:00:42.140 --> 00:00:45.380 Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene. 00:00:45.910 --> 00:00:46.580 And I'm Simon. 00:00:47.440 --> 00:00:51.620 And tonight we're looking at Doctor Who Flux. 00:00:52.340 --> 00:01:02.200 The whole thing, the one six-part story that we've all, we've been doing little reaction audios to these along the way. 00:01:02.780 --> 00:01:09.000 And tonight we're going to tackle that one whole single story. 00:01:10.260 --> 00:01:17.920 Starting with a trademark Fusion Patrol snarknopsis, which is a synopsis, only snarky. 00:01:18.900 --> 00:01:23.660 Chapter one, a long-imprisoned villain called Swarm escapes imprisonment. 00:01:24.030 --> 00:01:30.160 A woman living an ordinary life on Earth is actually, unbeknownst to herself, Azur, Swarm's sister. 00:01:30.740 --> 00:01:31.380 How did that happen? 00:01:31.900 --> 00:01:33.520 Don't waste your time asking silly questions. 00:01:34.100 --> 00:01:35.600 There are more pressing concerns. 00:01:36.240 --> 00:01:40.000 The Flux, a universe-ending MacGuffin, is ending the universe. 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:46.300 Also, dog people known as the Lupari are going to save the inhabitants of Earth one person at a time. 00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:47.580 Starting with Dan. 00:01:48.240 --> 00:01:53.140 Carvanista, the dog who tried to kill the Doctor in a pre-credit sequence, rescuing his human Dan, 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.860 and he just happens to get there first because of a time thingy. 00:01:58.220 --> 00:02:00.680 Don't worry about that, it's not relevant later. 00:02:01.400 --> 00:02:04.560 The Lipari have built over 7 billion flux-proof spacecraft, 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.800 which the Doctor reconfigures into a shield to save the Earth. 00:02:08.160 --> 00:02:12.020 Not so lucky for the TARDIS, though, that crashes headlong into the flux. 00:02:12.680 --> 00:02:15.840 And we're introduced to Vendor, Di, Joseph Williamson, and Claire. 00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:17.800 I'm sure they'll be important later. 00:02:18.300 --> 00:02:22.300 Chapter 2. Damage, the TARDIS lands in the 19th century Crimean War. 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:27.500 Except it isn't about the Russians anymore. It's the Suntarans, and no one seems to notice. 00:02:27.940 --> 00:02:30.880 Mary Seacole is there, just generally being better than the British. 00:02:31.580 --> 00:02:33.220 Dan and Yaz get zapped elsewhere. 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:38.120 Dan back to modern-day Liverpool, where he single-handedly, with some phoned-in help from the doctor, 00:02:38.580 --> 00:02:42.260 and the timely arrival of Carvanista, saves the Earth from the Suntarans. 00:02:42.720 --> 00:02:46.820 Yaz goes to the Temple of Atropos on the planet Time, where she meets Vinder, 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:53.180 one of the good guys, and Swarm and Azur, the bad guys. Back in the Crimea, the Sontarans are 00:02:53.600 --> 00:02:58.780 really rubbish and the doctor sends them packing. Chapter three, the doctor rescues Yaz and Vinder 00:02:59.160 --> 00:03:03.760 from Swarm and Azur by throwing them into their timelines. For giggles, she chucks Dan in there 00:03:03.900 --> 00:03:09.440 too. They have a bunch of flashbacks. Chapter four, the Weeping Angels have captured the TARDIS and 00:03:09.580 --> 00:03:16.299 take it to an English village in 1967. There, the doctor meets Claire. She's from 2021 but has been 00:03:16.320 --> 00:03:22.920 sent back to 1967 by the angels. It's all a trap. The division are hunting the angel because it has 00:03:23.160 --> 00:03:28.500 escaped and contains all the doctor's missing memories. The fugitive angel lured the doctor 00:03:28.660 --> 00:03:33.700 there to help it. The plan fails and the angel turns the doctor over to the division angels. 00:03:34.500 --> 00:03:41.540 Yazdan and Professor Jericho are flung back to 1901. Chapter 5. The doctor meets Tekdeun, 00:03:41.600 --> 00:03:46.840 her supposed adopted mother, and they expositioned each other in the gap between universes. 00:03:47.900 --> 00:03:50.980 The Division sent the Flux to destroy the universe because... 00:03:51.550 --> 00:03:51.940 The Doctor? 00:03:52.620 --> 00:03:54.620 Don't get hung up on that concept. It comes to nothing. 00:03:55.040 --> 00:03:57.380 The Swarm and Azir arrive and kill Tek-Teyun. 00:03:57.740 --> 00:04:02.240 Yaz, Dan, and Jericho travel all over the world for very little reason. 00:04:02.980 --> 00:04:08.879 Unit gets a retcon as we learn the history of Unit has been infiltrated by an alien life form 00:04:08.920 --> 00:04:13.940 known as the Grand Serpent since long before Colonel Lethbridge Stewart even formed the damn 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:20.640 thing. Chapter six, everybody loves a multi-doctor story, and in this episode, we've got three. 00:04:21.299 --> 00:04:28.320 Thirteen, thirteen, and thirteen, split into three parts, each expositing like mad. The Suntarans are 00:04:28.420 --> 00:04:33.240 back with the aid of the Grand Serpent, and they've got a plan to rid the universe of the Daleks and 00:04:33.260 --> 00:04:38.680 the Cybermen, a plan which they succeed in executing. One of the doctors manages to get 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:44.280 the flux swallowed by another convenient MacGuffin, which, unbeknownst to Swarm and Azur, has thwarted 00:04:44.580 --> 00:04:50.140 their plan to release time. When they go visit time, thinking they've triumphed, they have failed 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:55.540 and time kills them, but doesn't kill the doctor, just says, your time's running out, and the story 00:04:55.760 --> 00:05:01.139 is over. After all the trouble the doctor went to retrieve her missing memories, she gets rid of 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:07.260 them. She's just about to kiss yes to, but goofy old Dan cock blocks that. Nothing will be the same 00:05:07.440 --> 00:05:13.080 though. Most of the universe has been completely destroyed. Countless trillions of life forms have 00:05:13.080 --> 00:05:20.020 been wiped out of existence. The Suntarans, the Cybermen, and the Daleks no longer exist. Next 00:05:20.160 --> 00:05:27.160 time, the Doctor battles Daleks. Okay, maybe things will be the same. The end. All right, uh, 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:32.780 Two things I want to say before I ask you what you thought of the flux. 00:05:33.950 --> 00:05:45.360 The first is that, you know, as listeners will know, we've been doing these compressed fusion reactions on the promise that the flux was one six-part story. 00:05:45.940 --> 00:05:47.780 And like the good old days. 00:05:48.600 --> 00:05:54.580 And we didn't want to wait for six weeks to hit it out with some podcast feedback. 00:05:54.640 --> 00:06:00.620 but at the same time we wanted to do this the proper episode after we watched it probably 00:06:01.000 --> 00:06:09.060 should have watched them all again but to quote uh i believe i'm quoting or misquoting uh daniel 00:06:09.340 --> 00:06:17.940 craig uh you know i'd rather eat broken glass than watch it again so i didn't and i i don't 00:06:18.100 --> 00:06:24.020 believe you simon had time to watch the whole thing it's a time thing to watch the whole thing 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:32.540 Yeah. Okay. And this is a pretty hard ask to call a single story or to condense into a thing. 00:06:32.760 --> 00:06:39.040 So we're a little, my notes are really bizarre and we're really off. So I'm not sure how this 00:06:39.200 --> 00:06:44.040 episode is going to go. That's my warning. The other thing I want to quote, I want to quote 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:50.300 something because we have referred to it many, many times in the past on Fusion Patrol. And I, 00:06:50.520 --> 00:06:54.680 I want to make sure that we're all on the same page with regards to this. 00:06:55.110 --> 00:07:03.680 And I want to use this exact quote from Wikipedia because I think it really does cover both sides of this story. 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:07.180 It's one paragraph long, although, frankly, it should be two paragraphs. 00:07:07.370 --> 00:07:09.240 But, hey, what do you get for free writing online? 00:07:10.140 --> 00:07:11.120 And it is this. 00:07:12.060 --> 00:07:22.160 Chekhov's gun, or Chekhov's rifle, is a dramatic principle that states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed. 00:07:22.880 --> 00:07:27.080 Elements should not appear to make false promises by never coming into play. 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:32.720 The statement is recorded in letters by Anton Chekhov several times, with some variation. 00:07:33.340 --> 00:07:35.640 It was advice for young playwrights. 00:07:36.180 --> 00:07:44.540 It is derived from the idea that if a gun is placed in a scene, it must at some point be used, as in his own play, The Seagull. 00:07:45.080 --> 00:07:49.700 Ernest Hemingway mocked the principle in his essay, The Art of the Short Story, 00:07:50.340 --> 00:07:56.960 giving the example of two characters that are introduced and then never mentioned again in his short story, 50 Grant. 00:07:57.660 --> 00:08:08.720 Hemingway valued inconsequential details, but conceded that readers will inevitably seek symbolism and significant in these inconsequential details. 00:08:09.540 --> 00:08:15.840 Other writers have noted that too much emphasis on the principle can make a story predictable and leave it colorless. 00:08:16.520 --> 00:08:16.800 End quote. 00:08:17.520 --> 00:08:25.860 And I think that may come into play in our discussion of this episode, but, or this story, or this whatever you want to call it, this flux. 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:28.360 Simon, what do you think? 00:08:28.880 --> 00:08:31.120 Well, I want to know what you want to call it, 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:35.320 because we did discuss whether this was one six-part, 00:08:35.710 --> 00:08:38.700 whether this would, it was promised to be one six-part story, 00:08:38.770 --> 00:08:41.820 and we decided we would wait and review it at the end 00:08:42.300 --> 00:08:45.160 on the basis that that was what was promised. 00:08:45.840 --> 00:08:50.680 And I think you expressed some scepticism about it being one six-part story. 00:08:51.340 --> 00:08:53.800 And I think even after the second part, you were saying, 00:08:54.020 --> 00:08:57.240 well, yeah, this is the key to time just mashed up a bit. 00:08:57.820 --> 00:08:58.580 Where are you on that now? 00:08:58.750 --> 00:09:00.340 Is it a six-part story or not? 00:09:00.520 --> 00:09:01.860 It's Trial of the Time Lord. 00:09:02.920 --> 00:09:04.540 It's sort of one story. 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:10.620 I'd say it's a little more one story than an average series arc in Modern Who, 00:09:11.320 --> 00:09:12.900 but I don't know what it is. 00:09:13.560 --> 00:09:15.700 It's, I mean, you know, Trial of the Time Lord, 00:09:15.810 --> 00:09:19.980 unlike the key to time is six separate stories. 00:09:20.760 --> 00:09:26.900 You can argue that because they've got the through line of finding the key, that it's one story. 00:09:26.910 --> 00:09:33.280 But that's the same as saying that the adventures of David Banner on the Incredible Hulk is just one story. 00:09:33.830 --> 00:09:37.960 Because he's always going from place to place looking for a cure. 00:09:38.860 --> 00:09:43.740 Or that the X-Files is one story because Mulder is always searching for the truth. 00:09:44.440 --> 00:09:48.020 And occasionally there's bits of that mythos that come in. 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:58.500 But Trial of the Time Lord, which was an unholy mess, is three distinct stories and a fourth that overarches them. 00:09:58.870 --> 00:10:04.600 And it is actually because it ends in two parts that is the ending of the Trial of the Time Lord. 00:10:06.620 --> 00:10:10.160 It's closer to this than than anything we've seen. 00:10:10.210 --> 00:10:11.800 And that's about the best I can say. 00:10:11.900 --> 00:10:14.720 But this is it. This is just an unholy mashup. 00:10:14.860 --> 00:10:23.940 And I would say what this is, is 12 episodes of Doctor Who that were meant to have a bit of an arc that got slashed like nobody's business. 00:10:24.760 --> 00:10:30.660 And instead of going, let's cut out 50 percent of it, they said, let's cut out 50 percent or 50 percent of the stories. 00:10:30.970 --> 00:10:37.360 They said, let's cut out 50 percent of each of the stories and slide them all together. 00:10:38.020 --> 00:10:39.280 That's what it feels like to me. 00:10:39.820 --> 00:10:42.160 I mean, do you think this was one story? 00:10:42.900 --> 00:10:45.860 I don't think that it's that easy to categorise it. 00:10:46.060 --> 00:10:47.700 So, I mean, I'm just watching, as it happens, 00:10:48.060 --> 00:10:49.780 Trial of a Time Lord at the moment. 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:51.140 And it is a mess. 00:10:51.390 --> 00:10:54.640 And that is, there are, you know, reasons for that. 00:10:54.750 --> 00:10:57.760 And part of it is because I think you can see 00:10:58.040 --> 00:11:02.360 where there are retroactively applied arc elements 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:06.520 that don't always kind of mesh up with the, 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:09.820 if you like, the episode's main story. 00:11:09.940 --> 00:11:15.820 I'm not I can see why I can see why you think that might be the origins of this. 00:11:16.380 --> 00:11:22.300 I'm not convinced. I'm going to look forward to it never was 12 stories. 00:11:22.500 --> 00:11:25.060 I mean, I think it was eight down to six or something. 00:11:25.900 --> 00:11:37.960 And whatever it was. But yeah, we don't know whether any of those original what stage any of those original treatments were at or whether any of them were included in this. 00:11:38.020 --> 00:11:41.000 because the writers would have been different anyway. 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:43.360 But this is not what I expected. 00:11:43.780 --> 00:11:46.100 So let me put that out there first. 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:48.100 I've been trying to figure out what it is 00:11:48.400 --> 00:11:49.840 because I think what I expected, 00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:54.800 and I was very much looking forward to getting a new format, 00:11:55.260 --> 00:11:57.560 and I'm very happy to have had a new format 00:11:57.940 --> 00:12:01.080 because when we, I think it was in the context 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:02.420 of what we wanted from a new showrunner, 00:12:02.520 --> 00:12:04.900 but hey, we get it from the existing showrunner, that's fine. 00:12:05.640 --> 00:12:13.480 We're talking about the fact that Doctor Who could do with a shake up and do, you know, doing something different. 00:12:13.630 --> 00:12:29.600 It wasn't just the kind of episode monster of the week with some kind of arc running through in the background that is even less, even less kind of well integrated than than the X-Files were, which you're losing to. 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:45.820 So good. OK, I'm happy with the new format, but I'm I'm also kind of left a bit dissatisfied by some elements of this story that are connected with the fact that there is something else going on here. 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:54.360 I think I think to some degree you could argue that there are within this, there are kind of self-contained stories within episodes. 00:12:55.340 --> 00:12:59.320 So I think when we did our little compressed reactions, 00:12:59.570 --> 00:13:03.420 we talked about that in episode two with the Sontarans, 00:13:04.060 --> 00:13:09.200 War of the Sontarans, and episode four, Village of the Angels, 00:13:09.970 --> 00:13:12.700 that, you know, to a greater degree, 00:13:13.060 --> 00:13:16.220 those episodes had their own standalone story. 00:13:16.230 --> 00:13:17.920 If someone tuned in just for that episode, 00:13:18.380 --> 00:13:22.000 and actually I literally made my dad watch one of those episodes 00:13:22.090 --> 00:13:23.500 without having seen any of the others, 00:13:24.420 --> 00:13:31.440 then it would which one uh war of the santa rins oh and uh you know it would make some sort of 00:13:31.560 --> 00:13:35.240 sense but at the same time the the kind of other bits of the story were being advanced and that 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:41.560 was through an arc or a number of arcs a number of different stories that that i think i was 00:13:41.780 --> 00:13:48.619 expecting to be quite intertwined but as the story went on what emerged was the fact that 00:13:48.640 --> 00:13:55.560 some of the arcs were not originating from the flux story so it wasn't it wasn't that the flux 00:13:55.560 --> 00:14:03.420 was six episodes of different plot strands being woven together it was the flux was some new plot 00:14:03.620 --> 00:14:11.360 strands being woven together with some previously developed plot strands namely the timeless child 00:14:11.520 --> 00:14:17.859 and the tech to end backstory and the division and all this kind of thing and furthermore i'm 00:14:17.880 --> 00:14:25.340 not convinced that at the end of the flux all of these things are wrapped up because i think some 00:14:25.460 --> 00:14:30.660 of it is being held over for well i mean i'm not i'm not actually sure how many more episodes we've 00:14:30.740 --> 00:14:36.860 got three or four three three so we've got another three episodes and then everything will be wrapped 00:14:37.020 --> 00:14:43.039 up and i think some of these things are being saved up for that so i think what we've got going 00:14:43.060 --> 00:14:50.000 on here just to add to the confusion is happening at three different levels that since the the 00:14:50.380 --> 00:14:56.960 second jodie whittaker season chibnall has been setting up some longer term storylines 00:14:57.620 --> 00:15:03.360 and first timeless child came out in the ghost monument i had forgotten that i wouldn't 00:15:03.540 --> 00:15:08.979 necessarily consider that to be part of the arc but no you're right yes so he was he was laying 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:14.080 clues even further back than that i mean i did think the first series was pretty it was pretty 00:15:14.300 --> 00:15:20.800 sort of standalone and then the second series was very much he was introducing this whole master 00:15:21.860 --> 00:15:26.920 teasing giving the backstory of the timeless show and it looked like that season was just going to 00:15:26.940 --> 00:15:31.820 be uh it was going to have its own arc a bigger arc but it would be wrapped up by the end of the 00:15:32.020 --> 00:15:37.979 season but what we're finding now is that um with that and the christmas special and then going into 00:15:38.000 --> 00:15:46.220 this there are actually plot elements that he is playing out over what will be two three or three 00:15:46.280 --> 00:15:52.560 and a bit seasons whatever it turns out to be so you so you've got you've got the kind of storyline 00:15:52.760 --> 00:15:56.820 that's going through seasons on one level you've got the storyline that's going through the flux 00:15:57.030 --> 00:16:02.219 on another level and then you've got individual episode stories on another level and what i would 00:16:02.240 --> 00:16:08.800 say about that is well first of all it's interesting um second of all it's not entirely 00:16:09.800 --> 00:16:15.760 successful but i still think it's worth having a go at and thirdly it's not that novel it's actually 00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:26.779 just the way tv is made now it's like when doctor who came back in 2005 they consciously abandoned 00:16:26.800 --> 00:16:33.420 the old serialized format okay fair enough they wanted something that people could drop into you 00:16:33.420 --> 00:16:37.340 know they going out to the pub or coming back from the pub they could just watch an episode without 00:16:37.500 --> 00:16:42.680 having worried about whether they had watched it last week or going to watch it next week and you 00:16:42.680 --> 00:16:49.380 know the the iPlayer box set era has has come upon us and things aren't like that anymore and so if 00:16:49.380 --> 00:16:56.259 you just look aside from the kind of sci-fi stuff I mean I pick the the best thing that's on tv now 00:16:56.280 --> 00:17:01.600 And I think this is probably a good one because it's certainly out on both sides of the pond and probably in other countries, too. 00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:09.880 Succession. You look at the way that is constructed and there are stories that are running through the seasons. 00:17:10.220 --> 00:17:14.900 So we're on the third season of it now. There are stories that are running right across that. 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:22.380 There are stories that run to a climax, a cliffhanger, if you like, at the end of seasons. 00:17:22.980 --> 00:17:28.439 and within episodes even though it is essentially basically just a serial there are episodes that 00:17:28.520 --> 00:17:34.000 are kind of standalone so you know picking from one of the most recent ones the episode with the 00:17:34.120 --> 00:17:38.460 shareholders meeting it's all about the shareholders meeting it's kind of set in one location 00:17:39.020 --> 00:17:44.800 and it has a kind of internal cohesiveness so i don't think that this is kind of that novel it's 00:17:44.940 --> 00:17:51.479 just we're not used to doing this in a in a kind of look i mean how many long-running sci-fi series 00:17:51.500 --> 00:18:00.820 are there but it's okay i i here's the thing uh i'll and i'm i'm trying i really i i really in a 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:06.580 way didn't even want to come in here because i'm not anything good to say and i'm trying not to 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:10.720 i don't think it's i'm not i'm not i'm not into the good or bad here i'm into the i know i know 00:18:10.940 --> 00:18:17.639 but what i was going to say is what i was going to say is that um you know my wife was watching 00:18:17.660 --> 00:18:25.140 this with me. And after we finished watching it unsolicited, she said, well, if that was the first 00:18:25.300 --> 00:18:29.560 Doctor Who I'd ever watched, referring to the whole of the Flux, I would never watch anymore. 00:18:30.280 --> 00:18:37.140 Now, coincidentally, at roughly the same time, or just a little bit before, we watched the first 00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:47.620 series of Foundation, which is also, there are multiple strands. It is modern, standard. You're 00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.340 and there are things that are left unfinished to get you to come back. 00:18:51.600 --> 00:18:51.920 Absolutely. 00:18:52.570 --> 00:18:55.340 Should we come back to watch that next year when it comes back? 00:18:56.280 --> 00:18:57.560 So it is not that style. 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:01.380 And there are lots of people who are doing this. 00:19:01.480 --> 00:19:02.220 You're absolutely correct. 00:19:03.040 --> 00:19:07.040 What struck me is how poorly this was done. 00:19:07.520 --> 00:19:10.000 It just does not gel to me. 00:19:10.340 --> 00:19:12.720 These pieces just don't work. 00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:16.820 It's like when we first did the Halloween Apocalypse, 00:19:16.860 --> 00:19:20.880 somebody online and I can't remember their name. I wrote the quote down. I don't have the quote in 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:27.060 front of me. So I'm paraphrasing the quote. It was like, it's like Chibnall is a fan of Doctor Who, 00:19:27.500 --> 00:19:34.160 but he's like a fan fiction writer who loves it, wants to do it, just hasn't quite got it. 00:19:34.840 --> 00:19:42.420 And I think that could be applied to this format. This is absolutely sort of the modern format, 00:19:42.520 --> 00:19:49.200 but he hasn't hit it. He hasn't quite got it right. And you're right. It's parallel threads. 00:19:49.400 --> 00:19:54.140 Some of these threads are unresolved. I went through the characters one by one. And when I 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:58.900 got to the end of them, almost every last one of them, with possible exception of Jericho, 00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:06.180 you know, I have the sentences like, this person has to come back because otherwise, 00:20:06.420 --> 00:20:11.820 why did we waste time with them? There must be more. They must be showing up again before 00:20:11.840 --> 00:20:20.560 Jodie Whittaker leaves because why did we waste our time with this? And then, let me quote again, 00:20:21.100 --> 00:20:25.900 Hemingway valued inconsequential details but conceded that readers will inevitably seek 00:20:26.180 --> 00:20:31.680 symbolism and significance in these inconsequential details. I don't know which I'm looking at there. 00:20:32.140 --> 00:20:39.440 Is this just stuff that Chibnall has just wasted our time with? Or is he actually, 00:20:40.440 --> 00:20:47.860 is die coming back i mean what the heck was that all about i i mean i i think that's really 00:20:48.100 --> 00:20:55.180 interesting because i think i think we're both saying that the format itself should work um or 00:20:55.280 --> 00:20:59.600 could work you know there's nothing there's nothing inherently wrong with the format and 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:07.420 that the way it was executed wasn't quite right or maybe you're saying something stronger but i'm 00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:13.720 definitely saying wasn't quite right to me there were particularly for me problems in the first 00:21:13.830 --> 00:21:20.720 and last episodes and I you know episodes two three four and five well I mean actually to be 00:21:20.730 --> 00:21:26.100 honest the whole thing I enjoyed it but episodes two three four and five was much more just I 00:21:27.080 --> 00:21:34.320 I sat back and enjoyed it without worrying too much whereas I think that the issues that I had 00:21:34.340 --> 00:21:40.360 at either end were the first episode i mean apart from the fact it was very strangely edited 00:21:41.040 --> 00:21:45.460 which i went back and watched it again and i i still don't understand what was going on there 00:21:45.860 --> 00:21:51.580 but also it was and and the funny thing is these episodes have been have varied in length 00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:59.160 by over 10 minutes and it was the shortest episode i think and it rushed through introducing 00:21:59.560 --> 00:22:05.140 these characters so you've got a character on the you didn't know whether they were going to be 00:22:05.380 --> 00:22:09.240 significant there wasn't a signal to you as the viewer to say whether they were going to be 00:22:09.980 --> 00:22:16.180 significant now Hemingway might approve of this but some of them just got killed before the end 00:22:16.180 --> 00:22:21.720 of the episode and some of them turned out to have really pivotal roles in the overall plot 00:22:22.560 --> 00:22:29.640 and then some of them like die kind of didn't well then then i think at the other end of of the 00:22:29.860 --> 00:22:37.200 story the problem that i had was there wasn't a strong enough signal to me as as a viewer saying 00:22:38.020 --> 00:22:45.220 is the this is a this is a mystery this is a question mark that is something that the the 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:51.780 the show has has been exploring and the mystery is there deliberately perhaps it's going to be 00:22:51.940 --> 00:22:58.860 revisited or this you know this is the end granted with the exception of jericho this is the end of 00:22:59.020 --> 00:23:06.480 that that story that person's arc i cannot tell it's all it's all wrapped up and and in some cases 00:23:06.700 --> 00:23:12.960 like you get you get this kind of pseudo thing well it sort of seems to be wrapped up but it 00:23:12.980 --> 00:23:21.040 just feels unsatisfying i don't really understand why um it was that just i mean die die is a great 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:28.540 example i i that could have been the whole story with die right i mean if you put that in rtd's 00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:35.440 hands that you were late thing i get what i get what was going on there and you know rtd would 00:23:35.440 --> 00:23:41.700 have milked every drop out of that i mean in some cases you think he goes you know he way over does 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:49.280 it becomes sentimental um but on the other hand that just got thrown away in this and i don't know 00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:56.900 why but so did so did all right she was captured okay i mean lots of people were apparently 00:23:57.180 --> 00:24:03.520 captured but but she was captured and she was put in the passenger form and bazillions of people 00:24:03.540 --> 00:24:08.659 were captured and put in the passenger form but she was the only one they didn't do anything with 00:24:09.040 --> 00:24:12.700 They left her behind and nothing. 00:24:13.340 --> 00:24:14.880 There's never any indication why. 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.780 There's never any indication what made her special about that. 00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:21.080 What it just, it just goes. 00:24:21.800 --> 00:24:22.620 What was it? 00:24:23.040 --> 00:24:23.960 To them, I'm insignificant. 00:24:24.440 --> 00:24:28.000 But I mean, as in Vinda specifically asks the question that you're asking as a viewer. 00:24:28.620 --> 00:24:30.980 So, you know, this is not being ignored. 00:24:31.540 --> 00:24:34.600 And she says to them, I'm insignificant, but I'm not insignificant. 00:24:35.320 --> 00:24:37.140 And I don't understand what that means. 00:24:37.620 --> 00:24:45.300 yeah they're all insignificant to them yeah uh well that it doesn't please don't be another doctor 00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:52.520 it doesn't answer the question that's being asked but you wouldn't ask the question unless you wanted 00:24:53.060 --> 00:25:02.080 people to ask the question i i i don't the funny thing about it so i i think we're on the same page 00:25:02.100 --> 00:25:07.240 with this is there's like there is a there is a an arc there that could have been a story in itself 00:25:07.420 --> 00:25:16.740 it's like she she she agrees to meet this guy she fancies and then she gets kidnapped and as does he 00:25:17.360 --> 00:25:25.100 put it well no hang on this is her story she gets kidnapped and put in passenger and that has an 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:30.559 effect on her but we don't see what it is i mean literally that is not portrayed all we get is her 00:25:30.580 --> 00:25:37.300 running around and becoming experts being so later on she has this kind of reaction you were late as 00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.760 if this terrible thing has happened to me and it is your fault which is understandable if you're 00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:48.060 traumatized and yeah you you're looking for meaning in or you're looking for someone to blame that 00:25:48.120 --> 00:25:54.560 would be understandable except is she traumatized because maybe the effect it had on her was to 00:25:54.960 --> 00:26:01.960 emphasize her own resourcefulness and she seems to be running around actually quite in command 00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:09.000 quite in control so i i kind of felt like that whole and this isn't the only strand but you know 00:26:09.180 --> 00:26:16.220 it's it's a great example of it it was not given the space to breathe you couldn't you couldn't 00:26:16.280 --> 00:26:21.880 even really understand what was going on with that story because the pace of it was so rapid 00:26:21.900 --> 00:26:24.040 that what she was, 00:26:24.300 --> 00:26:25.600 what the journey she was going on 00:26:25.640 --> 00:26:26.800 and what she was feeling along the way 00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:27.520 could have been anything. 00:26:28.020 --> 00:26:30.400 If we're going to try to put consequence to it, 00:26:30.760 --> 00:26:31.700 if it has consequence, 00:26:32.080 --> 00:26:32.520 it's not Di. 00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:35.140 The person Vinder rescued is not Di 00:26:35.520 --> 00:26:37.420 or is Di possessed. 00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.140 And the reason Di doesn't want to be around Dan 00:26:41.360 --> 00:26:43.920 is because Dan is the person who would know, 00:26:44.500 --> 00:26:45.900 maybe would spot it. 00:26:45.980 --> 00:26:46.700 I mean, Vinder isn't, 00:26:46.900 --> 00:26:47.620 he's never met her before. 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:49.360 This is just hi, I'm Di. 00:26:50.140 --> 00:27:01.380 And so, I mean, this could be part of the forces of evil mastering and their master or whatever, which, wow, don't lay that on a little thick about who's going to be there at the end. 00:27:03.120 --> 00:27:07.440 If that were the case, just, I mean, I'm not sure I buy this at all. 00:27:07.540 --> 00:27:10.280 I think I'm much more inclined to take it at face value. 00:27:10.380 --> 00:27:17.060 But if that were the case, why would she not be trying to, you know, trying to get close to the doctor? 00:27:17.220 --> 00:27:18.800 Why would she not be trying to get close to Dan? 00:27:19.260 --> 00:27:24.380 she whatever she is the forces of darkness well i'm not saying it's a well thought out plan 00:27:25.360 --> 00:27:31.120 it's like i haven't seen anything here no i don't plan i i can't name a single well thought 00:27:31.170 --> 00:27:37.500 out plan in this story the flux isn't a good plan the suntaran's plan isn't a good plan 00:27:38.300 --> 00:27:44.460 the angel's plan isn't a good plan either suntaran plan isn't a good plan i mean just 00:27:44.600 --> 00:27:50.680 aren't any good plans in this. Obviously, as yours and Swarm's plan wasn't a good plan, 00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:00.420 I don't know. I mean, again, it comes down to, is it in inconsequential detail? Is it, 00:28:00.460 --> 00:28:14.440 as I put before, are we trying to work poor plotting into a work of brilliance? Because 00:28:14.460 --> 00:28:24.260 I want it to be good. And so it's it's pretty easy to look at it and go, well, it's it's got to be more than that. 00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:34.800 It hasn't been so far under Chibnall, though. And and I I'm not I don't really think that's what I'm doing. 00:28:35.020 --> 00:28:38.340 I don't think I'm looking for patterns to enjoy it more. 00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:45.560 I think I'm trying to understand why I was left dissatisfied by these aspects of it. 00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:50.140 In what overall I did think was a very enjoyable series. 00:28:50.800 --> 00:28:54.480 It was neither fish nor fowl in a sense. 00:28:54.800 --> 00:29:00.220 If there were a clever plot, for it to be satisfying, 00:29:00.340 --> 00:29:06.500 It needs to be clearer at this point that there is still something unresolved. 00:29:06.940 --> 00:29:12.420 And if there wasn't a clever plot and that was the whole story, it needs to be clear at this point that it has been resolved. 00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:22.140 And if I had that clarity, if those notes had been hit more strongly in the final episode, I think I would feel more satisfied by it. 00:29:23.000 --> 00:29:23.400 That's all. 00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:31.380 And I, you know, I can't walk away from this going, how is how is Belle's child not an important plot point here? 00:29:31.940 --> 00:29:34.640 How is that just an incident? 00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:37.280 Why was that ever going to be an important plot point? 00:29:37.620 --> 00:29:39.700 Why was it ever? Because they put it in. 00:29:40.320 --> 00:29:48.300 What is the point of making your character pregnant when they did nothing with it other than have a baby monitor, which could have been any kind of little AI device? 00:29:48.480 --> 00:29:54.000 there was absolutely no significance of the fact that she was pregnant in this story, except that she mentioned it. 00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:57.060 I didn't think what you didn't think it was significant. 00:29:57.800 --> 00:30:04.380 I'm just I mean, I'm interested because to me, I was like I was looking at all that speculation about why she was having a baby. 00:30:04.380 --> 00:30:10.200 And I was like, I mean, I think it's possibly something you have to lay at Moffat's door. 00:30:10.660 --> 00:30:29.000 I love what he did on the show, but some of that timey-wimey stuff was so clever that people now assume that any dramatic element within a storyline must have some kind of incredibly convoluted temporal dimension to it. 00:30:29.320 --> 00:30:48.880 But they said that to the doctor in this series. They said that it's all coming around to the beginning. It's time is cyclical. It does it again. They said that in one of the episodes. And the implication is that this is the beginning of the start of what happened before, almost. 00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:55.940 It is. And so, I mean, Schiphol is signaling that it's timey-wimey and it doesn't matter. 00:30:57.340 --> 00:31:01.480 Bell's child doesn't have to be the doctor. The Bell's child doesn't have to be Yaz. 00:31:02.060 --> 00:31:05.180 Bell's child doesn't have to be any anything like that. 00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:12.880 But but coming back to that Chekhov's gun, they did nothing with the fact that she was pregnant at all. 00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:16.360 She wasn't incapacitated because she was pregnant. 00:31:16.700 --> 00:31:20.620 She wasn't slowed down like she really would be if she were pregnant. 00:31:21.580 --> 00:31:23.180 It really wasn't that. 00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:25.640 It wasn't like Vinder knew she was pregnant. 00:31:25.780 --> 00:31:28.420 And so he was working extra hard to get to her. 00:31:28.860 --> 00:31:32.600 There was there was nothing other than the fact that she had a baby monitor. 00:31:32.860 --> 00:31:36.280 And it just doesn't make any sense. 00:31:37.080 --> 00:31:37.800 You've hit the point. 00:31:37.800 --> 00:31:39.800 You've hit the point that is its dramatic significance. 00:31:39.900 --> 00:31:41.300 But you've just got the wrong person. 00:31:41.860 --> 00:31:43.000 Vinder doesn't know she's pregnant. 00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:44.200 Belle knows she's pregnant. 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:50.180 and that's its dramatic significance within the storyline to me it definitely adds a great deal 00:31:50.210 --> 00:31:55.620 to the story and i i never really thought oh this but this baby must be someone who we know or there 00:31:55.720 --> 00:32:01.040 must be you know there must be a story in who this baby is going to grow up to be i mean maybe 00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:06.040 there'll be a sequel in 50 years time and we'll find out but yeah it didn't time travel we don't 00:32:06.040 --> 00:32:11.020 have to do that we don't have we don't need to wait 50 years it's time travel is a show about 00:32:11.040 --> 00:32:16.040 time travel it could be tomorrow oh my parents no no it's a show it's a show about time travel 00:32:16.040 --> 00:32:20.500 you could have told it now of course you're absolutely right but why would you care about 00:32:20.600 --> 00:32:26.520 it now i mean the point the point i'm making is that there are there you know big finish or 00:32:27.100 --> 00:32:31.820 the people writing the novels or whatever they like to look at shows that were 30 years ago 00:32:32.100 --> 00:32:39.180 and fill in these kind of little gaps that are if you like hemmingway's insignificant details 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:45.680 and add some significance to them and kind of expands them in some way and yes i that's what 00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:51.600 i'm supposing that people might do that for this but it but it doesn't it doesn't need that it's 00:32:51.660 --> 00:32:56.900 not like well i'll tell you what i'll tell you what chibnall is not he isn't a patch on hemingway 00:32:58.899 --> 00:33:07.380 um he's in a patch on heming on worn out butt of hemingway's jeans it's just if this is his 00:33:07.660 --> 00:33:09.180 I like insignificant nonsense. 00:33:09.820 --> 00:33:10.880 He's not good at it. 00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:13.940 And I'll plant my flag there. 00:33:15.580 --> 00:33:20.600 And, you know, that story was, I'm not, I'm not, but he was a better writer. 00:33:21.620 --> 00:33:26.860 I, you know, the whole Bell and Vinders story was just filler. 00:33:27.520 --> 00:33:28.380 It was just filler. 00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:33.840 The whole episode where Yaz and Jericho and Dan travel around the world, filler. 00:33:34.440 --> 00:33:36.900 It had no ultimate meaning. 00:33:37.260 --> 00:33:39.840 towards the story of the Flux. 00:33:39.860 --> 00:33:42.020 It was a detour out and about 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.420 to do whatever it was that they did. 00:33:45.860 --> 00:33:47.840 And what they did was they got us to like Jericho 00:33:48.140 --> 00:33:50.620 more than Yaz and Dan, and they killed him. 00:33:51.160 --> 00:33:52.060 And I just point out, 00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:55.600 they spent three or more years with that man 00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:57.360 and didn't shed a tear. 00:33:58.400 --> 00:33:59.880 Dan spent more time with Jericho 00:33:59.920 --> 00:34:00.960 than he has the doctor. 00:34:02.780 --> 00:34:05.100 He spent a couple hours with the doctor 00:34:05.100 --> 00:34:08.520 and spent three or four years chasing her. 00:34:09.100 --> 00:34:13.560 And it just misses the notes of, 00:34:14.770 --> 00:34:14.980 you know, 00:34:15.300 --> 00:34:16.919 Yaz has spent as much time with Jericho 00:34:17.139 --> 00:34:18.460 as she has with the doctor. 00:34:19.179 --> 00:34:23.480 And it just all feels, 00:34:23.980 --> 00:34:27.580 it just all feels so haphazard and went through. 00:34:28.919 --> 00:34:30.399 And I said, 00:34:30.450 --> 00:34:32.060 and listeners didn't hear it 00:34:32.060 --> 00:34:34.159 because I'm pretty sure I said it after the podcast. 00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:41.139 This whole, that I said it to you, Simon, I hope you'll confirm this so that they know I'm consistent in my opinion. 00:34:42.060 --> 00:34:43.399 I want to say what it is. 00:34:43.820 --> 00:34:48.679 Well, that this whole series will live and die to me by this final episode. 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:49.659 Oh, yeah. 00:34:49.800 --> 00:34:50.820 It could be brilliant. 00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:51.520 You did say it. 00:34:51.540 --> 00:34:52.500 And they could save it. 00:34:52.980 --> 00:34:55.780 Or it could be awful and it will tank it. 00:34:56.300 --> 00:34:58.160 And I'm in the latter camp. 00:34:59.700 --> 00:35:00.640 Well, you would have been. 00:35:00.640 --> 00:35:03.860 When you come to the end of this utterly dissatisfying ending. 00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:06.800 at every level. Oh, the swarm in Azure. 00:35:07.600 --> 00:35:09.640 They're gone. Yeah, all right, fine. Whatever. 00:35:10.500 --> 00:35:12.960 I'm the villain. I don't care. Whatever. See you later, Doc. 00:35:14.700 --> 00:35:18.140 Kate Stewart. Would she have five lines in this episode 00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:21.280 after all the unit buildup last time? 00:35:21.600 --> 00:35:24.680 All the unit buildup lined up with them firing missiles at Earth. 00:35:24.700 --> 00:35:27.680 Was there any evidence that missiles were fired at Earth? No. 00:35:28.140 --> 00:35:30.680 It was just gone. Just gone. 00:35:31.640 --> 00:35:35.060 And like, I'm the leader of the resistance of Earth. 00:35:35.640 --> 00:35:38.660 The Suntarans have only been invading for a week. 00:35:39.110 --> 00:35:39.600 A week. 00:35:39.820 --> 00:35:45.200 That's the problem with starting this on Halloween 2021 and ending it on December 5th, 2021. 00:35:46.510 --> 00:35:46.720 Right? 00:35:46.900 --> 00:35:52.220 There's that issue too for the people there in the world. 00:35:52.780 --> 00:35:54.680 It's just, it doesn't gel. 00:35:55.200 --> 00:35:56.200 Nothing about it gels. 00:35:56.900 --> 00:36:00.380 And okay, the Suntarans have been rubbish. 00:36:00.860 --> 00:36:07.540 But have they ever been so rubbish as to be taken out by a Suntaran who's got a chocolate addiction? 00:36:08.300 --> 00:36:09.080 Did you find that? 00:36:09.530 --> 00:36:11.080 I think it was supposed to be comedy. 00:36:11.780 --> 00:36:12.600 Did you find it funny? 00:36:13.560 --> 00:36:17.260 No, I do find the Suntaran funny. 00:36:17.460 --> 00:36:19.340 I can find the Suntaran funny. 00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:24.000 I didn't think that was particularly entertaining. 00:36:24.700 --> 00:36:28.860 And again, Kate Stewart's intelligence people worked that out in a week. 00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:30.460 No, Doctor works it out. 00:36:31.000 --> 00:36:37.780 no kate stewart's people worked it out because she said she said we have noticed we have a 00:36:37.950 --> 00:36:44.260 possible opportunity in that we've noticed uh raids on corner stores and then the doctor says 00:36:44.460 --> 00:36:48.700 you know oh yes predilection to this and that the other thing is like kate stewart's people figured 00:36:48.860 --> 00:36:53.920 out there was something going on there and there was a weakness that that well no no no no all she 00:36:53.940 --> 00:37:00.480 said was that they'd been raiding corner stores. I thought she prefaced that with something about 00:37:01.120 --> 00:37:06.120 we've identified a possible in or something when they said we have to try to get people into the 00:37:06.560 --> 00:37:13.960 the psychic the psychic ops thing. Admit it you've watched it twice I have not so I'll I'll take your 00:37:14.100 --> 00:37:19.840 word for it but that's what I took out of it. I took that the doctor was catching up with Kate 00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:26.880 stewart very very quickly when she brought that intelligence information to the four but i i won't 00:37:26.880 --> 00:37:32.520 swear to that also i thought the reunion between the doctor and kate was very touching wasn't it 00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:38.800 did they say hi to each other she said she liked this regeneration and made a comment that was 00:37:38.940 --> 00:37:45.360 clearly that was at the end it clearly indicates there's going to be another unit story in the next 00:37:45.380 --> 00:37:51.820 three episodes which i think that's fair that had to that had to be the case because there needs to 00:37:51.820 --> 00:37:57.720 be an exploration of the corporal lethbridge stewart comment in episode five or unless it's 00:37:57.820 --> 00:38:02.760 just a continuity glitch that they thought nobody would care about it won't be yeah i do 00:38:04.180 --> 00:38:09.400 well i mean they went they went so far we'll put we'll put that one down as we'll put that one down 00:38:09.420 --> 00:38:16.920 on the list of your your predictions to note they went so far they went so far as to point out the 00:38:17.060 --> 00:38:23.540 effect the the incident with wotan and yet so i mean they were trying to fit within the the because 00:38:23.540 --> 00:38:32.120 they didn't mention anything about the the cyberman or cyber invasion um yeah it's okay let's uh 00:38:32.600 --> 00:38:38.180 the rank is the the rank is the issue the yeah the rank is well the rank is a big issue and the fact 00:38:38.200 --> 00:38:45.080 that Colonel Lethbridge Stewart was military when the was Colonel when the web of fear occurred 00:38:45.620 --> 00:38:53.820 and it was subsequently the effects of web of fear that led to the establishment of unit so 00:38:55.560 --> 00:39:01.680 it's like that and that he was a Colonel already so this is very but he wouldn't have yeah okay 00:39:01.740 --> 00:39:08.600 he's too young right so it's it it's it doesn't there's no way it stacks up there's no way it's a 00:39:09.040 --> 00:39:15.120 it's a mistake there's got to be some timey whininess at play there's no way it's a mistake 00:39:15.580 --> 00:39:21.240 uh-huh okay we'll see i think mistake you don't i think i think they're just playing fast and loose 00:39:21.560 --> 00:39:28.740 i i do i do you think it's like a typo i think it's like a brain fart 00:39:29.860 --> 00:39:36.140 is what i think it is we'll see we'll put it put it down on that list of predictions along with 00:39:36.600 --> 00:39:40.280 dan and yaz aren't going to make it beyond the end of this episode okay well that's because 00:39:40.310 --> 00:39:44.860 they didn't announce they they they specifically excluded them from the credits when they announced 00:39:44.980 --> 00:39:50.160 the christmas special almost as if there was currently a series on the telly that they didn't 00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:58.720 want to spoil by preempting it with announcements about what was coming next well well i don't know 00:39:58.740 --> 00:40:05.740 that but i i think what was a mistake and won't be resolved was the fact that the tardis was left 00:40:06.220 --> 00:40:12.440 with unit because that that to me is very much part of the story of the flux we have got the 00:40:12.580 --> 00:40:18.460 tardis back at the end so that should have been addressed within this story and i think that's 00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:25.060 just been ignored how how is it that the the doctor spent all of those years at unit there 00:40:25.080 --> 00:40:30.700 was another TARDIS in the building and he never came across it no one ever mentioned it to him 00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:37.800 if it was a conspiracy you know everyone was perfectly um you know kept it from him the 00:40:38.020 --> 00:40:42.900 sharpest man in the building I don't think no way that those people were worried about the web of 00:40:43.010 --> 00:40:47.760 time oh this is a doctor's TARDIS from the future we can't show it to him there's no way that's what 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:53.600 it was it's just but even if they were how good would they have to be not to kind of go oh which 00:40:53.620 --> 00:40:57.980 TARDIS the other oh sorry doctor I didn't realize you were listening okay so there is one thing I 00:40:58.060 --> 00:41:02.620 want to get I do want to bring up all I'm thinking of it it's a little bit it's not quite on that 00:41:02.740 --> 00:41:07.320 topic but I agree that fits with the whole thing where I think a unit's just they just got it wrong 00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:16.600 but towards the end of this episode uh swarm says you know for our amusement we can let the flux 00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:21.900 destroy the universe and we can put it all back and let it destroy it again put it all back and 00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:30.540 we will have fun doing that. That's the fun of their existence, which gives us the complete out 00:41:31.120 --> 00:41:38.940 of restoring the entirety of the universe, which I might add, we ended this series with most of 00:41:38.940 --> 00:41:44.840 the universe being destroyed, completely wiped out of existence, including the Daleks, the Cybermen, 00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:51.040 and the Suntarans. All gone at the end of this episode. Planets destroyed, populations displaced, 00:41:51.460 --> 00:41:57.860 traveling all over the place earth relatively unscathed uh but you know we we've walked out of 00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:02.760 this with a universe it's probably only got a hundred galaxies left in it instead of a hundred 00:42:02.990 --> 00:42:08.160 million galaxies or a hundred billion galaxies or whatever the current reckoning is for the number 00:42:08.160 --> 00:42:14.860 of galaxies in our known observable universe and you know next week the daleks are back and two 00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:23.060 three weeks the daleks are back it like that's got to be resolved and the mcguffin is still there 00:42:23.110 --> 00:42:29.420 that that time still exists and apparently he has the power to just set it all back so reset switch 00:42:29.640 --> 00:42:36.200 anyone come on it is really well i'm sorry i'm not i'm not clear what you're you're looking for 00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:41.200 there did when we talked about it before i think i think you actually were in favor of there being 00:42:41.380 --> 00:42:45.000 a reset so are you think there will be are you disappointed that there hasn't been 00:42:46.180 --> 00:42:50.860 i think that there has to be one at this point i'm not keen on it i'm just saying that just 00:42:50.960 --> 00:42:57.340 pretty much has to be i don't think they can leave 99 of the universe dead killed in the name of the 00:42:57.460 --> 00:43:05.760 doctor i might add but um for some utterly unknown reason i don't think they can leave that i i you 00:43:05.780 --> 00:43:13.880 know and but when you say they can't you don't want them to or you do want them to but you you 00:43:15.180 --> 00:43:19.540 don't think they will or yes i don't think they will i don't think they can i don't think they 00:43:19.540 --> 00:43:24.400 can walk away from this and leave most of the universe dead just like they really couldn't do 00:43:24.560 --> 00:43:31.240 that in you know the the the avengers movies which i have not watched but where they killed i don't 00:43:31.260 --> 00:43:37.900 know half the universe's population they had to restore that it dramatically they just the hero 00:43:38.200 --> 00:43:43.580 has to solve that problem the hero has to be able to fix this the doctor has got to do something 00:43:44.220 --> 00:43:50.240 to undo that complete and absolute epic loss of life and since they're all dead and their 00:43:50.420 --> 00:43:57.620 plants are all destroyed you know this is this is i just i'm i just can't believe they're going 00:43:57.640 --> 00:44:02.160 to leave that alone and i and they have set up a bunch of things but i don't know whether you are 00:44:02.860 --> 00:44:07.580 am i in favor of it are you are you happy with that are you happy with that you're that's what's 00:44:07.660 --> 00:44:13.800 going to happen so if it does is is that what you want to see no i i want to see them not write a 00:44:14.020 --> 00:44:19.160 stupid story that leads them to having to do that that's what i want to see but i ain't going to get 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:25.360 that oh so the that's the problem the the question is not whether they whether there is a reset or 00:44:25.380 --> 00:44:29.560 not you're not actually bothered about whether there's a reset or not no i'm sure there is going 00:44:29.560 --> 00:44:37.680 to be a reset of some kind i'm are you in favor i i i i if we're here this is where we are how is 00:44:37.740 --> 00:44:42.180 it resolved to your greatest satisfaction is it you have a reset or you don't have a reset 00:44:42.660 --> 00:44:50.400 actually in a way it's uh i have a reset and that is that chibnall's not hired in the first place 00:44:50.980 --> 00:44:55.340 that would be the best reset switch we don't get that in real life we only get those in fiction 00:44:55.360 --> 00:44:56.380 That's the problem with some fiction. 00:44:56.710 --> 00:44:59.160 Do I reset at this point? 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:00.080 No, 00:45:00.340 --> 00:45:01.840 I'm saying is at this point, 00:45:02.040 --> 00:45:03.660 they've written themselves into a Reese. 00:45:03.740 --> 00:45:04.800 It's already done, 00:45:05.860 --> 00:45:05.980 right? 00:45:05.980 --> 00:45:06.540 This is you. 00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:07.660 You're asking me, 00:45:07.760 --> 00:45:08.540 do I want to reset? 00:45:08.780 --> 00:45:08.860 No, 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:10.680 it's done and filmed. 00:45:10.860 --> 00:45:11.320 It's done. 00:45:11.860 --> 00:45:12.180 It's done. 00:45:13.680 --> 00:45:13.860 Cause, 00:45:14.120 --> 00:45:17.280 cause I watched it twice and I'm pretty sure that we're still in a 00:45:17.560 --> 00:45:20.640 situation already filmed and finished the other three episodes too. 00:45:21.220 --> 00:45:22.400 Even though we haven't seen them. 00:45:22.660 --> 00:45:23.400 We haven't seen them. 00:45:23.540 --> 00:45:25.260 So we don't know what's in them. 00:45:25.780 --> 00:45:30.820 you're saying you do you do know that has happened within no i i say from a dramatic 00:45:31.060 --> 00:45:35.880 standpoint that's what they will have to do it's what i this is what they will have to do 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:41.600 and it's only because of what they set up they cannot possibly leave 90 of the known universe 00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:47.400 destroyed first off it limits all the places the doctor can go but it also leaves the doctor as 00:45:47.580 --> 00:45:53.860 as being all right you know somehow asking this question yeah do i want resets never 00:45:54.140 --> 00:46:00.300 do i want resets are they sometimes necessary yes for them to stick with it they've they've done 00:46:00.500 --> 00:46:04.440 they've done it you want them to see it through they've all yes they've already committed to 00:46:04.600 --> 00:46:08.920 having a reset they might as well fit they i need to finish it that's right they've already done the 00:46:09.040 --> 00:46:14.180 unconscionable thing and now they have to fix it right the doctor has you do what you do want right 00:46:14.380 --> 00:46:20.880 yeah okay the doctor has never failed on a scale this epically before and you don't want her to 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:26.220 correct the doctor right okay okay well that's that's what i'm kind of wondering that's what i'm 00:46:26.280 --> 00:46:31.260 kind of wondering how because it's it's kind of a question about how dark the show can go i think 00:46:31.400 --> 00:46:37.760 in a sense because you could could i mean the the the world of the familiar part of the world in 00:46:37.900 --> 00:46:44.520 doctor who earth and and earth's government and all the rest of it is very different from the one 00:46:44.940 --> 00:46:50.860 that we are familiar with and there are changes that have been made to it that the show has kind 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:58.260 of committed to over time certainly you know in the 21st century side of things but i'm not i'm 00:46:58.260 --> 00:47:03.080 not clear whether this is one of them i suspect it's not for the not for the same reasons you're 00:47:03.120 --> 00:47:08.000 thinking of but just because i think there's a kind of etiquette amongst showrunners that they 00:47:08.260 --> 00:47:14.480 wouldn't make such a big change at the end of their run they might make a big change at the 00:47:14.500 --> 00:47:20.660 beginning of their run because it gives them a playground and then hand over at the end for 00:47:20.830 --> 00:47:24.900 the next showrunner decide whether Cupid would get rid of it but what Chibnall would be doing 00:47:25.060 --> 00:47:30.040 here would be wiping out the universe and then handing over the show straight away and that's 00:47:30.140 --> 00:47:35.120 probably not really fair yeah and I I'm not just saying it from a story purpose I'm talking about 00:47:35.130 --> 00:47:40.100 from a production standpoint again as you say it's exactly the same thing you don't end the universe 00:47:40.120 --> 00:47:40.880 and walk away. 00:47:41.640 --> 00:47:42.980 It said, here you go. 00:47:43.520 --> 00:47:43.800 Here you go. 00:47:43.900 --> 00:47:44.620 I've destroyed everything. 00:47:44.780 --> 00:47:47.540 I mean, it's not like he hasn't already done that 00:47:48.070 --> 00:47:51.640 in a way in reverse with taking Gallifrey back out again. 00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:55.900 But yeah, it just, I can't see this 00:47:56.100 --> 00:47:57.180 from a production standpoint. 00:47:57.330 --> 00:47:59.040 I can't see this from a story standpoint. 00:47:59.540 --> 00:48:02.140 I can't see any out other than to solve it. 00:48:02.460 --> 00:48:04.340 And if you want to say, yeah, sure, fine. 00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:05.580 We can go to a dark place. 00:48:06.270 --> 00:48:08.580 Okay, maybe Doctor Who has decided to go to a dark place. 00:48:08.660 --> 00:48:15.140 maybe wiping out 99 of the universe is exactly what chibnall wanted to do where was the emotional 00:48:15.350 --> 00:48:21.780 impact of that there was zero i wouldn't agree there was no realization except that one bit 00:48:21.780 --> 00:48:28.480 where bell meets a bunch of refugees apart from that this was apart apart from that one little 00:48:28.740 --> 00:48:36.040 scene apart from the sanitation and the viaducts and that yeah i get it um i i i i wouldn't agree 00:48:36.060 --> 00:48:44.800 with that but I I think that it's different so what RTD did was he he wiped out all of the 00:48:45.270 --> 00:48:51.360 Time Lords and all the rest of it because that gave him scope to tell the stories that he wanted 00:48:51.360 --> 00:48:58.460 to be able to tell whereas Chibnall has got three episodes left so if this is just for him to have 00:48:58.600 --> 00:49:04.320 scope for those three episodes it doesn't need to be a a permanent thing well I think we might 00:49:04.340 --> 00:49:11.820 have more to cover than just uh our normal hour so uh i think maybe we'll cut it here and we'll 00:49:11.820 --> 00:49:19.140 come back for part two simon thank you for joining me here it's a pleasure and i i hope we manage it 00:49:19.140 --> 00:49:26.820 in two parts and not six yes there's an idea listeners uh we'll be coming out with part two 00:49:27.210 --> 00:49:34.300 uh within the same week so uh i hope you'll join us all again then on fusion patrol 00:49:36.040 --> 00:49:39.980 We hope you've enjoyed listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast. 00:49:40.840 --> 00:49:44.960 There are over 500 previous episodes available at FusionPatrol.com. 00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:49.080 Come join the conversation on Twitter, our website, or Facebook. 00:49:50.100 --> 00:49:54.420 Find out how you can become a supporter at Patreon.com slash Fusion Patrol. 00:49:55.460 --> 00:49:59.840 Supporters get early access to all regular episodes, bonus episodes, and more. 00:50:00.720 --> 00:50:06.220 There's even an optional podcast series where we're looking at the classic TV series Babylon 5. 00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.060 Our music is Fight the Future 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