Our discussion of Doctor Who Flux will be presented in two parts,
with this part coming out a little bit early,
and part two will come out on our regular release date.
You're listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast.
Each week, we take a single episode of a science fiction TV series or movie and overanalyze it to within an inch of its life.
Welcome to the discussion.
Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene.
And I'm Simon.
And tonight we're looking at Doctor Who Flux.
The whole thing, the one six-part story that we've all, we've been doing little reaction audios to these along the way.
And tonight we're going to tackle that one whole single story.
Starting with a trademark Fusion Patrol snarknopsis, which is a synopsis, only snarky.
Chapter one, a long-imprisoned villain called Swarm escapes imprisonment.
A woman living an ordinary life on Earth is actually, unbeknownst to herself, Azur, Swarm's sister.
How did that happen?
Don't waste your time asking silly questions.
There are more pressing concerns.
The Flux, a universe-ending MacGuffin, is ending the universe.
Also, dog people known as the Lupari are going to save the inhabitants of Earth one person at a time.
Starting with Dan.
Carvanista, the dog who tried to kill the Doctor in a pre-credit sequence, rescuing his human Dan,
and he just happens to get there first because of a time thingy.
Don't worry about that, it's not relevant later.
The Lipari have built over 7 billion flux-proof spacecraft,
which the Doctor reconfigures into a shield to save the Earth.
Not so lucky for the TARDIS, though, that crashes headlong into the flux.
And we're introduced to Vendor, Di, Joseph Williamson, and Claire.
I'm sure they'll be important later.
Chapter 2. Damage, the TARDIS lands in the 19th century Crimean War.
Except it isn't about the Russians anymore. It's the Suntarans, and no one seems to notice.
Mary Seacole is there, just generally being better than the British.
Dan and Yaz get zapped elsewhere.
Dan back to modern-day Liverpool, where he single-handedly, with some phoned-in help from the doctor,
and the timely arrival of Carvanista, saves the Earth from the Suntarans.
Yaz goes to the Temple of Atropos on the planet Time, where she meets Vinder,
one of the good guys, and Swarm and Azur, the bad guys. Back in the Crimea, the Sontarans are
really rubbish and the doctor sends them packing. Chapter three, the doctor rescues Yaz and Vinder
from Swarm and Azur by throwing them into their timelines. For giggles, she chucks Dan in there
too. They have a bunch of flashbacks. Chapter four, the Weeping Angels have captured the TARDIS and
take it to an English village in 1967. There, the doctor meets Claire. She's from 2021 but has been
sent back to 1967 by the angels. It's all a trap. The division are hunting the angel because it has
escaped and contains all the doctor's missing memories. The fugitive angel lured the doctor
there to help it. The plan fails and the angel turns the doctor over to the division angels.
Yazdan and Professor Jericho are flung back to 1901. Chapter 5. The doctor meets Tekdeun,
her supposed adopted mother, and they expositioned each other in the gap between universes.
The Division sent the Flux to destroy the universe because...
The Doctor?
Don't get hung up on that concept. It comes to nothing.
The Swarm and Azir arrive and kill Tek-Teyun.
Yaz, Dan, and Jericho travel all over the world for very little reason.
Unit gets a retcon as we learn the history of Unit has been infiltrated by an alien life form
known as the Grand Serpent since long before Colonel Lethbridge Stewart even formed the damn
thing. Chapter six, everybody loves a multi-doctor story, and in this episode, we've got three.
Thirteen, thirteen, and thirteen, split into three parts, each expositing like mad. The Suntarans are
back with the aid of the Grand Serpent, and they've got a plan to rid the universe of the Daleks and
the Cybermen, a plan which they succeed in executing. One of the doctors manages to get
the flux swallowed by another convenient MacGuffin, which, unbeknownst to Swarm and Azur, has thwarted
their plan to release time. When they go visit time, thinking they've triumphed, they have failed
and time kills them, but doesn't kill the doctor, just says, your time's running out, and the story
is over. After all the trouble the doctor went to retrieve her missing memories, she gets rid of
them. She's just about to kiss yes to, but goofy old Dan cock blocks that. Nothing will be the same
though. Most of the universe has been completely destroyed. Countless trillions of life forms have
been wiped out of existence. The Suntarans, the Cybermen, and the Daleks no longer exist. Next
time, the Doctor battles Daleks. Okay, maybe things will be the same. The end. All right, uh,
Two things I want to say before I ask you what you thought of the flux.
The first is that, you know, as listeners will know, we've been doing these compressed fusion reactions on the promise that the flux was one six-part story.
And like the good old days.
And we didn't want to wait for six weeks to hit it out with some podcast feedback.
but at the same time we wanted to do this the proper episode after we watched it probably
should have watched them all again but to quote uh i believe i'm quoting or misquoting uh daniel
craig uh you know i'd rather eat broken glass than watch it again so i didn't and i i don't
believe you simon had time to watch the whole thing it's a time thing to watch the whole thing
Yeah. Okay. And this is a pretty hard ask to call a single story or to condense into a thing.
So we're a little, my notes are really bizarre and we're really off. So I'm not sure how this
episode is going to go. That's my warning. The other thing I want to quote, I want to quote
something because we have referred to it many, many times in the past on Fusion Patrol. And I,
I want to make sure that we're all on the same page with regards to this.
And I want to use this exact quote from Wikipedia because I think it really does cover both sides of this story.
It's one paragraph long, although, frankly, it should be two paragraphs.
But, hey, what do you get for free writing online?
And it is this.
Chekhov's gun, or Chekhov's rifle, is a dramatic principle that states that every element in a story must be necessary, and irrelevant elements should be removed.
Elements should not appear to make false promises by never coming into play.
The statement is recorded in letters by Anton Chekhov several times, with some variation.
It was advice for young playwrights.
It is derived from the idea that if a gun is placed in a scene, it must at some point be used, as in his own play, The Seagull.
Ernest Hemingway mocked the principle in his essay, The Art of the Short Story,
giving the example of two characters that are introduced and then never mentioned again in his short story, 50 Grant.
Hemingway valued inconsequential details, but conceded that readers will inevitably seek symbolism and significant in these inconsequential details.
Other writers have noted that too much emphasis on the principle can make a story predictable and leave it colorless.
End quote.
And I think that may come into play in our discussion of this episode, but, or this story, or this whatever you want to call it, this flux.
Simon, what do you think?
Well, I want to know what you want to call it,
because we did discuss whether this was one six-part,
whether this would, it was promised to be one six-part story,
and we decided we would wait and review it at the end
on the basis that that was what was promised.
And I think you expressed some scepticism about it being one six-part story.
And I think even after the second part, you were saying,
well, yeah, this is the key to time just mashed up a bit.
Where are you on that now?
Is it a six-part story or not?
It's Trial of the Time Lord.
It's sort of one story.
I'd say it's a little more one story than an average series arc in Modern Who,
but I don't know what it is.
It's, I mean, you know, Trial of the Time Lord,
unlike the key to time is six separate stories.
You can argue that because they've got the through line of finding the key, that it's one story.
But that's the same as saying that the adventures of David Banner on the Incredible Hulk is just one story.
Because he's always going from place to place looking for a cure.
Or that the X-Files is one story because Mulder is always searching for the truth.
And occasionally there's bits of that mythos that come in.
But Trial of the Time Lord, which was an unholy mess, is three distinct stories and a fourth that overarches them.
And it is actually because it ends in two parts that is the ending of the Trial of the Time Lord.
It's closer to this than than anything we've seen.
And that's about the best I can say.
But this is it. This is just an unholy mashup.
And I would say what this is, is 12 episodes of Doctor Who that were meant to have a bit of an arc that got slashed like nobody's business.
And instead of going, let's cut out 50 percent of it, they said, let's cut out 50 percent or 50 percent of the stories.
They said, let's cut out 50 percent of each of the stories and slide them all together.
That's what it feels like to me.
I mean, do you think this was one story?
I don't think that it's that easy to categorise it.
So, I mean, I'm just watching, as it happens,
Trial of a Time Lord at the moment.
And it is a mess.
And that is, there are, you know, reasons for that.
And part of it is because I think you can see
where there are retroactively applied arc elements
that don't always kind of mesh up with the,
if you like, the episode's main story.
I'm not I can see why I can see why you think that might be the origins of this.
I'm not convinced. I'm going to look forward to it never was 12 stories.
I mean, I think it was eight down to six or something.
And whatever it was. But yeah, we don't know whether any of those original what stage any of those original treatments were at or whether any of them were included in this.
because the writers would have been different anyway.
But this is not what I expected.
So let me put that out there first.
I've been trying to figure out what it is
because I think what I expected,
and I was very much looking forward to getting a new format,
and I'm very happy to have had a new format
because when we, I think it was in the context
of what we wanted from a new showrunner,
but hey, we get it from the existing showrunner, that's fine.
We're talking about the fact that Doctor Who could do with a shake up and do, you know, doing something different.
It wasn't just the kind of episode monster of the week with some kind of arc running through in the background that is even less, even less kind of well integrated than than the X-Files were, which you're losing to.
So good. OK, I'm happy with the new format, but I'm I'm also kind of left a bit dissatisfied by some elements of this story that are connected with the fact that there is something else going on here.
I think I think to some degree you could argue that there are within this, there are kind of self-contained stories within episodes.
So I think when we did our little compressed reactions,
we talked about that in episode two with the Sontarans,
War of the Sontarans, and episode four, Village of the Angels,
that, you know, to a greater degree,
those episodes had their own standalone story.
If someone tuned in just for that episode,
and actually I literally made my dad watch one of those episodes
without having seen any of the others,
then it would which one uh war of the santa rins oh and uh you know it would make some sort of
sense but at the same time the the kind of other bits of the story were being advanced and that
was through an arc or a number of arcs a number of different stories that that i think i was
expecting to be quite intertwined but as the story went on what emerged was the fact that
some of the arcs were not originating from the flux story so it wasn't it wasn't that the flux
was six episodes of different plot strands being woven together it was the flux was some new plot
strands being woven together with some previously developed plot strands namely the timeless child
and the tech to end backstory and the division and all this kind of thing and furthermore i'm
not convinced that at the end of the flux all of these things are wrapped up because i think some
of it is being held over for well i mean i'm not i'm not actually sure how many more episodes we've
got three or four three three so we've got another three episodes and then everything will be wrapped
up and i think some of these things are being saved up for that so i think what we've got going
on here just to add to the confusion is happening at three different levels that since the the
second jodie whittaker season chibnall has been setting up some longer term storylines
and first timeless child came out in the ghost monument i had forgotten that i wouldn't
necessarily consider that to be part of the arc but no you're right yes so he was he was laying
clues even further back than that i mean i did think the first series was pretty it was pretty
sort of standalone and then the second series was very much he was introducing this whole master
teasing giving the backstory of the timeless show and it looked like that season was just going to
be uh it was going to have its own arc a bigger arc but it would be wrapped up by the end of the
season but what we're finding now is that um with that and the christmas special and then going into
this there are actually plot elements that he is playing out over what will be two three or three
and a bit seasons whatever it turns out to be so you so you've got you've got the kind of storyline
that's going through seasons on one level you've got the storyline that's going through the flux
on another level and then you've got individual episode stories on another level and what i would
say about that is well first of all it's interesting um second of all it's not entirely
successful but i still think it's worth having a go at and thirdly it's not that novel it's actually
just the way tv is made now it's like when doctor who came back in 2005 they consciously abandoned
the old serialized format okay fair enough they wanted something that people could drop into you
know they going out to the pub or coming back from the pub they could just watch an episode without
having worried about whether they had watched it last week or going to watch it next week and you
know the the iPlayer box set era has has come upon us and things aren't like that anymore and so if
you just look aside from the kind of sci-fi stuff I mean I pick the the best thing that's on tv now
And I think this is probably a good one because it's certainly out on both sides of the pond and probably in other countries, too.
Succession. You look at the way that is constructed and there are stories that are running through the seasons.
So we're on the third season of it now. There are stories that are running right across that.
There are stories that run to a climax, a cliffhanger, if you like, at the end of seasons.
and within episodes even though it is essentially basically just a serial there are episodes that
are kind of standalone so you know picking from one of the most recent ones the episode with the
shareholders meeting it's all about the shareholders meeting it's kind of set in one location
and it has a kind of internal cohesiveness so i don't think that this is kind of that novel it's
just we're not used to doing this in a in a kind of look i mean how many long-running sci-fi series
are there but it's okay i i here's the thing uh i'll and i'm i'm trying i really i i really in a
way didn't even want to come in here because i'm not anything good to say and i'm trying not to
i don't think it's i'm not i'm not i'm not into the good or bad here i'm into the i know i know
but what i was going to say is what i was going to say is that um you know my wife was watching
this with me. And after we finished watching it unsolicited, she said, well, if that was the first
Doctor Who I'd ever watched, referring to the whole of the Flux, I would never watch anymore.
Now, coincidentally, at roughly the same time, or just a little bit before, we watched the first
series of Foundation, which is also, there are multiple strands. It is modern, standard. You're
and there are things that are left unfinished to get you to come back.
Absolutely.
Should we come back to watch that next year when it comes back?
So it is not that style.
And there are lots of people who are doing this.
You're absolutely correct.
What struck me is how poorly this was done.
It just does not gel to me.
These pieces just don't work.
It's like when we first did the Halloween Apocalypse,
somebody online and I can't remember their name. I wrote the quote down. I don't have the quote in
front of me. So I'm paraphrasing the quote. It was like, it's like Chibnall is a fan of Doctor Who,
but he's like a fan fiction writer who loves it, wants to do it, just hasn't quite got it.
And I think that could be applied to this format. This is absolutely sort of the modern format,
but he hasn't hit it. He hasn't quite got it right. And you're right. It's parallel threads.
Some of these threads are unresolved. I went through the characters one by one. And when I
got to the end of them, almost every last one of them, with possible exception of Jericho,
you know, I have the sentences like, this person has to come back because otherwise,
why did we waste time with them? There must be more. They must be showing up again before
Jodie Whittaker leaves because why did we waste our time with this? And then, let me quote again,
Hemingway valued inconsequential details but conceded that readers will inevitably seek
symbolism and significance in these inconsequential details. I don't know which I'm looking at there.
Is this just stuff that Chibnall has just wasted our time with? Or is he actually,
is die coming back i mean what the heck was that all about i i mean i i think that's really
interesting because i think i think we're both saying that the format itself should work um or
could work you know there's nothing there's nothing inherently wrong with the format and
that the way it was executed wasn't quite right or maybe you're saying something stronger but i'm
definitely saying wasn't quite right to me there were particularly for me problems in the first
and last episodes and I you know episodes two three four and five well I mean actually to be
honest the whole thing I enjoyed it but episodes two three four and five was much more just I
I sat back and enjoyed it without worrying too much whereas I think that the issues that I had
at either end were the first episode i mean apart from the fact it was very strangely edited
which i went back and watched it again and i i still don't understand what was going on there
but also it was and and the funny thing is these episodes have been have varied in length
by over 10 minutes and it was the shortest episode i think and it rushed through introducing
these characters so you've got a character on the you didn't know whether they were going to be
significant there wasn't a signal to you as the viewer to say whether they were going to be
significant now Hemingway might approve of this but some of them just got killed before the end
of the episode and some of them turned out to have really pivotal roles in the overall plot
and then some of them like die kind of didn't well then then i think at the other end of of the
story the problem that i had was there wasn't a strong enough signal to me as as a viewer saying
is the this is a this is a mystery this is a question mark that is something that the the
the show has has been exploring and the mystery is there deliberately perhaps it's going to be
revisited or this you know this is the end granted with the exception of jericho this is the end of
that that story that person's arc i cannot tell it's all it's all wrapped up and and in some cases
like you get you get this kind of pseudo thing well it sort of seems to be wrapped up but it
just feels unsatisfying i don't really understand why um it was that just i mean die die is a great
example i i that could have been the whole story with die right i mean if you put that in rtd's
hands that you were late thing i get what i get what was going on there and you know rtd would
have milked every drop out of that i mean in some cases you think he goes you know he way over does
it becomes sentimental um but on the other hand that just got thrown away in this and i don't know
why but so did so did all right she was captured okay i mean lots of people were apparently
captured but but she was captured and she was put in the passenger form and bazillions of people
were captured and put in the passenger form but she was the only one they didn't do anything with
They left her behind and nothing.
There's never any indication why.
There's never any indication what made her special about that.
What it just, it just goes.
What was it?
To them, I'm insignificant.
But I mean, as in Vinda specifically asks the question that you're asking as a viewer.
So, you know, this is not being ignored.
And she says to them, I'm insignificant, but I'm not insignificant.
And I don't understand what that means.
yeah they're all insignificant to them yeah uh well that it doesn't please don't be another doctor
it doesn't answer the question that's being asked but you wouldn't ask the question unless you wanted
people to ask the question i i i don't the funny thing about it so i i think we're on the same page
with this is there's like there is a there is a an arc there that could have been a story in itself
it's like she she she agrees to meet this guy she fancies and then she gets kidnapped and as does he
put it well no hang on this is her story she gets kidnapped and put in passenger and that has an
effect on her but we don't see what it is i mean literally that is not portrayed all we get is her
running around and becoming experts being so later on she has this kind of reaction you were late as
if this terrible thing has happened to me and it is your fault which is understandable if you're
traumatized and yeah you you're looking for meaning in or you're looking for someone to blame that
would be understandable except is she traumatized because maybe the effect it had on her was to
emphasize her own resourcefulness and she seems to be running around actually quite in command
quite in control so i i kind of felt like that whole and this isn't the only strand but you know
it's it's a great example of it it was not given the space to breathe you couldn't you couldn't
even really understand what was going on with that story because the pace of it was so rapid
that what she was,
what the journey she was going on
and what she was feeling along the way
could have been anything.
If we're going to try to put consequence to it,
if it has consequence,
it's not Di.
The person Vinder rescued is not Di
or is Di possessed.
And the reason Di doesn't want to be around Dan
is because Dan is the person who would know,
maybe would spot it.
I mean, Vinder isn't,
he's never met her before.
This is just hi, I'm Di.
And so, I mean, this could be part of the forces of evil mastering and their master or whatever, which, wow, don't lay that on a little thick about who's going to be there at the end.
If that were the case, just, I mean, I'm not sure I buy this at all.
I think I'm much more inclined to take it at face value.
But if that were the case, why would she not be trying to, you know, trying to get close to the doctor?
Why would she not be trying to get close to Dan?
she whatever she is the forces of darkness well i'm not saying it's a well thought out plan
it's like i haven't seen anything here no i don't plan i i can't name a single well thought
out plan in this story the flux isn't a good plan the suntaran's plan isn't a good plan
the angel's plan isn't a good plan either suntaran plan isn't a good plan i mean just
aren't any good plans in this. Obviously, as yours and Swarm's plan wasn't a good plan,
I don't know. I mean, again, it comes down to, is it in inconsequential detail? Is it,
as I put before, are we trying to work poor plotting into a work of brilliance? Because
I want it to be good. And so it's it's pretty easy to look at it and go, well, it's it's got to be more than that.
It hasn't been so far under Chibnall, though. And and I I'm not I don't really think that's what I'm doing.
I don't think I'm looking for patterns to enjoy it more.
I think I'm trying to understand why I was left dissatisfied by these aspects of it.
In what overall I did think was a very enjoyable series.
It was neither fish nor fowl in a sense.
If there were a clever plot, for it to be satisfying,
It needs to be clearer at this point that there is still something unresolved.
And if there wasn't a clever plot and that was the whole story, it needs to be clear at this point that it has been resolved.
And if I had that clarity, if those notes had been hit more strongly in the final episode, I think I would feel more satisfied by it.
That's all.
And I, you know, I can't walk away from this going, how is how is Belle's child not an important plot point here?
How is that just an incident?
Why was that ever going to be an important plot point?
Why was it ever? Because they put it in.
What is the point of making your character pregnant when they did nothing with it other than have a baby monitor, which could have been any kind of little AI device?
there was absolutely no significance of the fact that she was pregnant in this story, except that she mentioned it.
I didn't think what you didn't think it was significant.
I'm just I mean, I'm interested because to me, I was like I was looking at all that speculation about why she was having a baby.
And I was like, I mean, I think it's possibly something you have to lay at Moffat's door.
I love what he did on the show, but some of that timey-wimey stuff was so clever that people now assume that any dramatic element within a storyline must have some kind of incredibly convoluted temporal dimension to it.
But they said that to the doctor in this series. They said that it's all coming around to the beginning. It's time is cyclical. It does it again. They said that in one of the episodes. And the implication is that this is the beginning of the start of what happened before, almost.
It is. And so, I mean, Schiphol is signaling that it's timey-wimey and it doesn't matter.
Bell's child doesn't have to be the doctor. The Bell's child doesn't have to be Yaz.
Bell's child doesn't have to be any anything like that.
But but coming back to that Chekhov's gun, they did nothing with the fact that she was pregnant at all.
She wasn't incapacitated because she was pregnant.
She wasn't slowed down like she really would be if she were pregnant.
It really wasn't that.
It wasn't like Vinder knew she was pregnant.
And so he was working extra hard to get to her.
There was there was nothing other than the fact that she had a baby monitor.
And it just doesn't make any sense.
You've hit the point.
You've hit the point that is its dramatic significance.
But you've just got the wrong person.
Vinder doesn't know she's pregnant.
Belle knows she's pregnant.
and that's its dramatic significance within the storyline to me it definitely adds a great deal
to the story and i i never really thought oh this but this baby must be someone who we know or there
must be you know there must be a story in who this baby is going to grow up to be i mean maybe
there'll be a sequel in 50 years time and we'll find out but yeah it didn't time travel we don't
have to do that we don't have we don't need to wait 50 years it's time travel is a show about
time travel it could be tomorrow oh my parents no no it's a show it's a show about time travel
you could have told it now of course you're absolutely right but why would you care about
it now i mean the point the point i'm making is that there are there you know big finish or
the people writing the novels or whatever they like to look at shows that were 30 years ago
and fill in these kind of little gaps that are if you like hemmingway's insignificant details
and add some significance to them and kind of expands them in some way and yes i that's what
i'm supposing that people might do that for this but it but it doesn't it doesn't need that it's
not like well i'll tell you what i'll tell you what chibnall is not he isn't a patch on hemingway
um he's in a patch on heming on worn out butt of hemingway's jeans it's just if this is his
I like insignificant nonsense.
He's not good at it.
And I'll plant my flag there.
And, you know, that story was, I'm not, I'm not, but he was a better writer.
I, you know, the whole Bell and Vinders story was just filler.
It was just filler.
The whole episode where Yaz and Jericho and Dan travel around the world, filler.
It had no ultimate meaning.
towards the story of the Flux.
It was a detour out and about
to do whatever it was that they did.
And what they did was they got us to like Jericho
more than Yaz and Dan, and they killed him.
And I just point out,
they spent three or more years with that man
and didn't shed a tear.
Dan spent more time with Jericho
than he has the doctor.
He spent a couple hours with the doctor
and spent three or four years chasing her.
And it just misses the notes of,
you know,
Yaz has spent as much time with Jericho
as she has with the doctor.
And it just all feels,
it just all feels so haphazard and went through.
And I said,
and listeners didn't hear it
because I'm pretty sure I said it after the podcast.
This whole, that I said it to you, Simon, I hope you'll confirm this so that they know I'm consistent in my opinion.
I want to say what it is.
Well, that this whole series will live and die to me by this final episode.
Oh, yeah.
It could be brilliant.
You did say it.
And they could save it.
Or it could be awful and it will tank it.
And I'm in the latter camp.
Well, you would have been.
When you come to the end of this utterly dissatisfying ending.
at every level. Oh, the swarm in Azure.
They're gone. Yeah, all right, fine. Whatever.
I'm the villain. I don't care. Whatever. See you later, Doc.
Kate Stewart. Would she have five lines in this episode
after all the unit buildup last time?
All the unit buildup lined up with them firing missiles at Earth.
Was there any evidence that missiles were fired at Earth? No.
It was just gone. Just gone.
And like, I'm the leader of the resistance of Earth.
The Suntarans have only been invading for a week.
A week.
That's the problem with starting this on Halloween 2021 and ending it on December 5th, 2021.
Right?
There's that issue too for the people there in the world.
It's just, it doesn't gel.
Nothing about it gels.
And okay, the Suntarans have been rubbish.
But have they ever been so rubbish as to be taken out by a Suntaran who's got a chocolate addiction?
Did you find that?
I think it was supposed to be comedy.
Did you find it funny?
No, I do find the Suntaran funny.
I can find the Suntaran funny.
I didn't think that was particularly entertaining.
And again, Kate Stewart's intelligence people worked that out in a week.
No, Doctor works it out.
no kate stewart's people worked it out because she said she said we have noticed we have a
possible opportunity in that we've noticed uh raids on corner stores and then the doctor says
you know oh yes predilection to this and that the other thing is like kate stewart's people figured
out there was something going on there and there was a weakness that that well no no no no all she
said was that they'd been raiding corner stores. I thought she prefaced that with something about
we've identified a possible in or something when they said we have to try to get people into the
the psychic the psychic ops thing. Admit it you've watched it twice I have not so I'll I'll take your
word for it but that's what I took out of it. I took that the doctor was catching up with Kate
stewart very very quickly when she brought that intelligence information to the four but i i won't
swear to that also i thought the reunion between the doctor and kate was very touching wasn't it
did they say hi to each other she said she liked this regeneration and made a comment that was
clearly that was at the end it clearly indicates there's going to be another unit story in the next
three episodes which i think that's fair that had to that had to be the case because there needs to
be an exploration of the corporal lethbridge stewart comment in episode five or unless it's
just a continuity glitch that they thought nobody would care about it won't be yeah i do
well i mean they went they went so far we'll put we'll put that one down as we'll put that one down
on the list of your your predictions to note they went so far they went so far as to point out the
effect the the incident with wotan and yet so i mean they were trying to fit within the the because
they didn't mention anything about the the cyberman or cyber invasion um yeah it's okay let's uh
the rank is the the rank is the issue the yeah the rank is well the rank is a big issue and the fact
that Colonel Lethbridge Stewart was military when the was Colonel when the web of fear occurred
and it was subsequently the effects of web of fear that led to the establishment of unit so
it's like that and that he was a Colonel already so this is very but he wouldn't have yeah okay
he's too young right so it's it it's it doesn't there's no way it stacks up there's no way it's a
it's a mistake there's got to be some timey whininess at play there's no way it's a mistake
uh-huh okay we'll see i think mistake you don't i think i think they're just playing fast and loose
i i do i do you think it's like a typo i think it's like a brain fart
is what i think it is we'll see we'll put it put it down on that list of predictions along with
dan and yaz aren't going to make it beyond the end of this episode okay well that's because
they didn't announce they they they specifically excluded them from the credits when they announced
the christmas special almost as if there was currently a series on the telly that they didn't
want to spoil by preempting it with announcements about what was coming next well well i don't know
that but i i think what was a mistake and won't be resolved was the fact that the tardis was left
with unit because that that to me is very much part of the story of the flux we have got the
tardis back at the end so that should have been addressed within this story and i think that's
just been ignored how how is it that the the doctor spent all of those years at unit there
was another TARDIS in the building and he never came across it no one ever mentioned it to him
if it was a conspiracy you know everyone was perfectly um you know kept it from him the
sharpest man in the building I don't think no way that those people were worried about the web of
time oh this is a doctor's TARDIS from the future we can't show it to him there's no way that's what
it was it's just but even if they were how good would they have to be not to kind of go oh which
TARDIS the other oh sorry doctor I didn't realize you were listening okay so there is one thing I
want to get I do want to bring up all I'm thinking of it it's a little bit it's not quite on that
topic but I agree that fits with the whole thing where I think a unit's just they just got it wrong
but towards the end of this episode uh swarm says you know for our amusement we can let the flux
destroy the universe and we can put it all back and let it destroy it again put it all back and
we will have fun doing that. That's the fun of their existence, which gives us the complete out
of restoring the entirety of the universe, which I might add, we ended this series with most of
the universe being destroyed, completely wiped out of existence, including the Daleks, the Cybermen,
and the Suntarans. All gone at the end of this episode. Planets destroyed, populations displaced,
traveling all over the place earth relatively unscathed uh but you know we we've walked out of
this with a universe it's probably only got a hundred galaxies left in it instead of a hundred
million galaxies or a hundred billion galaxies or whatever the current reckoning is for the number
of galaxies in our known observable universe and you know next week the daleks are back and two
three weeks the daleks are back it like that's got to be resolved and the mcguffin is still there
that that time still exists and apparently he has the power to just set it all back so reset switch
anyone come on it is really well i'm sorry i'm not i'm not clear what you're you're looking for
there did when we talked about it before i think i think you actually were in favor of there being
a reset so are you think there will be are you disappointed that there hasn't been
i think that there has to be one at this point i'm not keen on it i'm just saying that just
pretty much has to be i don't think they can leave 99 of the universe dead killed in the name of the
doctor i might add but um for some utterly unknown reason i don't think they can leave that i i you
know and but when you say they can't you don't want them to or you do want them to but you you
don't think they will or yes i don't think they will i don't think they can i don't think they
can walk away from this and leave most of the universe dead just like they really couldn't do
that in you know the the the avengers movies which i have not watched but where they killed i don't
know half the universe's population they had to restore that it dramatically they just the hero
has to solve that problem the hero has to be able to fix this the doctor has got to do something
to undo that complete and absolute epic loss of life and since they're all dead and their
plants are all destroyed you know this is this is i just i'm i just can't believe they're going
to leave that alone and i and they have set up a bunch of things but i don't know whether you are
am i in favor of it are you are you happy with that are you happy with that you're that's what's
going to happen so if it does is is that what you want to see no i i want to see them not write a
stupid story that leads them to having to do that that's what i want to see but i ain't going to get
that oh so the that's the problem the the question is not whether they whether there is a reset or
not you're not actually bothered about whether there's a reset or not no i'm sure there is going
to be a reset of some kind i'm are you in favor i i i i if we're here this is where we are how is
it resolved to your greatest satisfaction is it you have a reset or you don't have a reset
actually in a way it's uh i have a reset and that is that chibnall's not hired in the first place
that would be the best reset switch we don't get that in real life we only get those in fiction
That's the problem with some fiction.
Do I reset at this point?
No,
I'm saying is at this point,
they've written themselves into a Reese.
It's already done,
right?
This is you.
You're asking me,
do I want to reset?
No,
it's done and filmed.
It's done.
Cause,
cause I watched it twice and I'm pretty sure that we're still in a
situation already filmed and finished the other three episodes too.
Even though we haven't seen them.
We haven't seen them.
So we don't know what's in them.
you're saying you do you do know that has happened within no i i say from a dramatic
standpoint that's what they will have to do it's what i this is what they will have to do
and it's only because of what they set up they cannot possibly leave 90 of the known universe
destroyed first off it limits all the places the doctor can go but it also leaves the doctor as
as being all right you know somehow asking this question yeah do i want resets never
do i want resets are they sometimes necessary yes for them to stick with it they've they've done
they've done it you want them to see it through they've all yes they've already committed to
having a reset they might as well fit they i need to finish it that's right they've already done the
unconscionable thing and now they have to fix it right the doctor has you do what you do want right
yeah okay the doctor has never failed on a scale this epically before and you don't want her to
correct the doctor right okay okay well that's that's what i'm kind of wondering that's what i'm
kind of wondering how because it's it's kind of a question about how dark the show can go i think
in a sense because you could could i mean the the the world of the familiar part of the world in
doctor who earth and and earth's government and all the rest of it is very different from the one
that we are familiar with and there are changes that have been made to it that the show has kind
of committed to over time certainly you know in the 21st century side of things but i'm not i'm
not clear whether this is one of them i suspect it's not for the not for the same reasons you're
thinking of but just because i think there's a kind of etiquette amongst showrunners that they
wouldn't make such a big change at the end of their run they might make a big change at the
beginning of their run because it gives them a playground and then hand over at the end for
the next showrunner decide whether Cupid would get rid of it but what Chibnall would be doing
here would be wiping out the universe and then handing over the show straight away and that's
probably not really fair yeah and I I'm not just saying it from a story purpose I'm talking about
from a production standpoint again as you say it's exactly the same thing you don't end the universe
and walk away.
It said, here you go.
Here you go.
I've destroyed everything.
I mean, it's not like he hasn't already done that
in a way in reverse with taking Gallifrey back out again.
But yeah, it just, I can't see this
from a production standpoint.
I can't see this from a story standpoint.
I can't see any out other than to solve it.
And if you want to say, yeah, sure, fine.
We can go to a dark place.
Okay, maybe Doctor Who has decided to go to a dark place.
maybe wiping out 99 of the universe is exactly what chibnall wanted to do where was the emotional
impact of that there was zero i wouldn't agree there was no realization except that one bit
where bell meets a bunch of refugees apart from that this was apart apart from that one little
scene apart from the sanitation and the viaducts and that yeah i get it um i i i i wouldn't agree
with that but I I think that it's different so what RTD did was he he wiped out all of the
Time Lords and all the rest of it because that gave him scope to tell the stories that he wanted
to be able to tell whereas Chibnall has got three episodes left so if this is just for him to have
scope for those three episodes it doesn't need to be a a permanent thing well I think we might
have more to cover than just uh our normal hour so uh i think maybe we'll cut it here and we'll
come back for part two simon thank you for joining me here it's a pleasure and i i hope we manage it
in two parts and not six yes there's an idea listeners uh we'll be coming out with part two
uh within the same week so uh i hope you'll join us all again then on fusion patrol
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